WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 710 - Stephen Karam / Josh Brener

Episode Date: May 26, 2016

Playwright Stephen Karam received his first Tony nomination about an hour before sitting down with Marc to talk about his experiences in the New York theater community, the way he writes himself into all of his characters, and the shock of having his play The Humans on Broadway next to Phantom of the Opera. Plus, Marc's old "assistant" Josh Brener stops by to talk about his new movie Welcome to Happiness and the new season of Silicon Valley. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuckineers? What the fucksters? Nice to see you. Nice to talk to you. Welcome. Hi. How are you? Everything okay? You alright there? You strapped in? Are you being careful? Are you looking both ways? Are you hiding with your headphones on? Are you trying to pretend like you're listening to music?

Hey. Hey. Hey, how's work? What's going on? I'm Mark. This is my show. It's a podcast. I talk to people. Got a couple of people on today. Pretty exciting show. Interesting show. What I'm going to do in a few minutes is I'm going to talk to my old sidekick, show. What I'm going to do in a few minutes is I'm going to talk to my old sidekick, Josh Brenner, who played Kyle in seasons one, two, and three of Marin. He was my assistant. You may also know him as Big Head on Silicon Valley. And he's in a movie. It's a movie coming out called welcome to happiness with nick offerman and keegan

michael key i'll talk to josh brenner in a little bit i'll also be talking to the playwright stephen carom author of the humans which i saw off broadway but is now on broadway tremendous play this is part of a series of playwrights i seem to be having on. Maybe it's not a series. Yeah, there's more coming. Yeah. But it's been interesting for me to go to theater. I enjoy it. It's a lively and relevant art form that we need to engage in, and The Humans is a great play.

I talked to him in New York in a hotel room. So that's what I'm trying to tell you. Josh Brenner and Stephen Karam on the show today. I do want to get some business out of the way, personal business, about my dates coming up. The Trippany House shows have been spectacular here in Los Angeles at the Steve Allen Theater. I want to thank everyone for coming down. There are several shows coming up. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour. I'll be at the Steve Allen

Theater on May 31st, June 7th, June 14th, June 21st, and June 28th. These are Tuesdays. They're, I think, an $8 ticket. All the proceeds go to the theater on July 7th, 8th, and 9th. I will be at the Spokane

Comedy Club in Washington. Wow, I'm doing full runs, man. That's one, two, three, four, five shows. And then July 14th, 15th, and 16th, I will be at Wise Guys in Salt Lake City, Utah, doing the real club work. And then July 28th, 29th, and 30th, I will be at the Comedy Attic in Bloomington, Indiana, doing the club work.

And then August 18th, 19th, and 20th, I'll be at Stand Up Live in Phoenix, Arizona, doing the club work. And then September 9th, 10th, I'll be at the Comedy Club in Rochester, New York. And for God's sakesakes by the end of that run I should definitely have a new hour just out of necessity so I don't lose my fucking mind so yeah I mean come to any of those shows

I hope you're enjoying Marin on IFC which airs Wednesdays at 9pm I think the 4th episode aired last night moving out of the rehab situation and into life. And then we get, this is phase two of season four of Marin. It was very fun, obviously, working with Sally Kellerman and challenging and exciting.

Working with Michael Lerner, who, who I, I am a fan of, despite the fact that he's a, a very challenging individual. And I, I still love him. And, and we, we pulled an episode together out of what was a pretty chaotic few days of

shooting my friends. So enjoy that. You know, like I, I don't want to complain about bullshit. But I guess it's only relative to, you know, what your life is like. Obviously, people have bigger problems than this. But as I've told you before, I went through it.

It almost became a narrative, but I just fucking detached from it. I got this new office space that I'm very happy with to do my work, to process things, to write and go through books and records and letters and shit that are sent to me and have meetings down there. And AT&T, they have a cell tower on top of the building that my office is in right above my office. I didn't know this going in. I've set this up before. Now, here's the deal you know corporations people have their own problems with corporations corporations should not be treated as individuals corporations get away with murder literally i hope that what i'm talking about right now is not going to put me on an at&t hit list but uh the reality of trying to conduct business

within a fucking cell tower and have a functioning stereo. See, this is where I realize it's a trite issue. But I'm an obsessive idiot and I see injustice in mundane things. You know, God forbid I appeal to my sense of injustice to bigger, broader issues and get out there and do some campaigning or some actual selfless grassroots lobbying for the candidate of my choice. But no, I'm going to shake my fist at the great mythological god AT&T,

who is a very real god in the sense that they control a good deal of the communications for people in this world, their ability to text, send dick pics, and avoid calls from their parents, occasionally email, Wi-Fi. Not benevolent, just there competing with other cell phone and phone companies wi-fi as well so not knowing that i was operating within a fucking cell tower i was unable to use my stereo because of this horrendous buzz now who knows just by talking about this perhaps look i'll tell you this if i have an aneurysm or some sort of psychotic break, they focused the laser and they twisted my fucking brain.

And the fact of the matter is they don't even need to do that because they've sent guys over. We've turned things off. We've pinpointed that the buzz is directly related to the fact that I'm working inside a cell tower. They turned some shit off. The buzz went away. So it is completely relative to AT&T's equipment on my roof. So every time I go to my office to do a little work done, I'm like, maybe it's gone. I turn it on. No, not gone. And yesterday, not only was it not gone, it was fucking worse than it's ever been.

And I'm like, I got to get out of the office not because I'm a fucking baby who wants to play his records just because I'm obsessive and I'm not going to be able to let it go because I think what most corporations want you to do is just admit defeat and move on whether it's with a product whether it's with anything they're just they're just playing the odds you know if they've got you know five pissed off people out of 100, fuck them. And that's with anything. So if one or two people get the bad pair of shoes or the shitty service or hurt themselves badly in a car accident, can we fit it into our bottom line? Take care of this shit and just move on business as usual and shut that guy up and you know i wish you know i could get over it but i can't

because i'm obsessive and i want to enjoy my workspace and i want to work the way i want to work i have the freedom to do that no one's going to tell me to shut the fuck up and just you know forget about the music and i've tried to tell myself that. Like, hey, is it really that important? You know what? It kind of is. It kind of is. But as I assumed,

it's going to be some sort of very pathetic David and Goliath story where David doesn't win. He just kind of goes like, I guess I'll just take my rocks and go to some other space. They just want you to live with it. And I think so many of us do that on so many levels.

It's like, this is the way it is. Fuck that. I'm either going to split or they're going to turn their shit off. Because it's fucking my head up. They don't even need to put the zap on my brain they've already done it just by not fixing it because i'm gonna i'm an obsessive idiot so it's it annoys me that my brain works like that it really does my guest right now is a guy i worked with i did great comedy with i have a lot of respect for. He's a funny kid.

And Josh Brenner's in a new film, Welcome to Happiness, that you can see in theaters now and video on demand. You can also see him as Big Head on the HBO show Silicon Valley. So this is me and my old buddy, Josh Brenner. It's a night for the whole family. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at TorontoRock.com. To show your true heart, just to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required, T's and C's apply. Enter. No hard feelings.

Man, I mean... No hard feelings. You know, we did what we could. We tried. We tried to get you on this last season. There's just no way. Can I tell you something? You were too essential to Silicon Valley. Too essential.

I mean, not only is my character not essential, I as a human am also. Dude, honestly, my wife, like two months ago, my wife was like, what's wrong with you? You're like bummed and you're like moping around. I was like, I don't know. And she's like, oh, I know what it is. It's because you're not doing marriage. I swear, she honestly said that. Because I think I texted you.

I had this string of people coming up and being like, dude, and I'd be like, oh, you watch Silicon Valley? And they're like, what? No. Like, Marin is my favorite show on TV. Like, honestly, like people, it was like the universe just like rubbing it in my face. Yeah.

You know, you were always very good and I had to just keep up with you and our scenes on Marin. And what? give me a break solid always solid yeah ready for work all you were riffing uh-huh all you were doing was writing directing executive producing but i wanted to act i want you want cameras yeah but no one sees that shit all they see is like i don't know marin's like a little stiff a little stiff give me a break well let me but seriously i just told you this a minute ago, but I'm going to tell you

it again. Right. This season, it's like, it's unbelievable. Like, that's some heavy lifting you're doing. Thanks, man. And it's fucking, it's really good. Thank you. It's really good.

I think I stepped up to the plate. Yeah, and Grand Slam home run. Thank you very much. Sports. And you are doing a good job yourself on the Silicon Valley. I watched one episode last night, and I just happened to be to be like full of you. That's rare. Yeah. You really, I have a friend who texts me after every episode I'm not in and says best episode yet of the season. Every single one. Good friend.

He's awesome. How are your parents, the lovely people that came to see me in Texas? God, that, oh, they love, they love you. I swear, like I talk to them once a week on Shabbos. It's like, how's Mark doing? I'm like, guys, I haven't seen Mark. They're like, do you know he was so nice to us? I was like, yeah, because I know because we've talked about it a lot of times now.

They love you. They're good people. Yeah, I mean, yeah, they're the best. And you're still vegetarian? Yeah, wait, how did you know? Is that a thing we talk? What are you talking about? Yeah.

Is that a thing we talk? I worked with you for three years. Well, I didn't know I was so in your face about it. I try to, you know. Vegetarians, there's no subtlety to that. Even when you're not trying to be in someone's face about it. There's a slight superiority thing that happens that you guys all disclaim. No, no.

No, that is true i am i am a hundred percent superior to everyone who eats meat that's a fact that is a fact about me is that i'm better than people who eat meat right yeah so if you're listening and you eat meat i'm better than you yeah well i get that and i'm not i'm not sure i disagree it's but it's you know it's it's however you want to live your life if you don't know the joy of a good burger that's that's no i do i do because i i wasn't always a vegetarian and that makes me even more special sure is that i remember the fight i remember it and i still say you know what i don't need that because i'm such a good person okay all right so what was it was it a

was it the animal screaming thing oh Oh, man, it was every... I grew up kosher. I was raised in a kosher house, so, you know... That's got nothing to do with being a vegetarian. That's just weird. Well, yeah, well, this is... Two sets of utensils, two sets of cutting boards. This is the fun thing about my house is it was a kosher house,

so we had two sets of utensils. We had the dairy and we had the meat, but we also had a set of Trafe silverware for when we had, like, take out Chinese and that kind of thing. Oh, really? So we were, you know, it was like very, very conservative and unless, you know, somebody needed to have some like sweet and sour chicken. Right.

But that's weird because my brother did that too. Not particularly religious, but kept kosher. Yeah. It's a weird thing. It's something about tradition and discipline and I guess it's a godliness at all times, even when you're being ungodly. Like you're assuming that God's not paying attention if you use the trape silverware.

They like, well, at least they're not using the ordained utensils. That's correct. Yeah, we're showing a sign of respect. You know, it's like the Shabbos Goy. Right, and nobody's perfect. No one's perfect. The Shabbos Goy?

The Shabbos Goy. What is that? You know, so like I don't have to turn on the light switch on Shabbat. I bring in a Shabbos Goy and say, oh, it's dark in here. It's dark. goy what is that you know so like i don't have to turn on the light switch right on shabbat i bring in a shabbos goy and say and say oh it's dark in here it's dark sure would be nice if the lights were on and then that's code i'm not going to turn it on because you know i'm a good jew that's right shabbos goy yeah and then you go like god did you see that no no respect i can't believe

that guy just flipped the lights he doesn't know any better better. He's just a goy. You were that Chabasi? No, no, no. Oh, oh. No, no, but kosher, yes. I didn't realize you were that Jew-y. Yeah, but pretty Jew. That's sweet of you to say. I mean, look at my face. But you're Texas Jew? Texas Jew, yeah. Yeah. Galveston Project motherfuckers. Yeah. I've met a few. Yeah, it's a weird

breed. But here's the thing that was interesting about you, and it's surprising that I didn't ultimately resent you right out of working with me. But, you know, you're a Harvard guy. Oh, yeah. Because don't, you know. Well, you know, people don't like that. No, but you're different.

Understandably. People don't like that. No, but you're different. You're different. But see, you don't ride the same high ground with Harvard as you do with vegetables. You can't because people already assume it. Vegetarianism is something we can all process. We kind of get it, but Harvard is very exclusive, and you underplay that one. You're not going to shake the terribleness of no matter. Like I can make a joke about how being a vegetarian is a superpower. But whatever you do with Harvard, it's just going to cut.

It's terrible. But you didn't study acting right there. You can't. You can't really. Right. Because that wouldn't be serious. Right. To study acting.

What was the English, right? Yeah, I studied English. Yeah. And then but they under the English program, you could take acting classes. Right. The American Repertory Theater, which is like. Down the street. Yeah. Yeah. Right across the way. A.R.T. Yeah. A.R. English. Yeah. And then, but they, under the English program, you could take acting classes. Right. At the American Repertory Theater, which is like a. Down the street, yeah. Yeah, right across the way.

ART, yeah. ART, yeah. So I took classes there and did plays there and all that stuff. Oh, really? That's where you started at ART? Doing like student plays or did you get into some bigger ones? I was never in like their like real deal productions. But they would do cool stuff where like, you know, the staff from the ART, like the, and

there's also a graduate MFA program there, they're teaching classes. And they also like would do a visiting director project. So I was like in plays directed by like the real deal people from ART, which was amazing. Oh yeah? It was really cool. Like who? This guy, Marcus Stern, who's awesome. And then like Robert Woodruff taught a class.

Oh yeah? And one of the guys who wrote, like basically wrote practical aesthetics, like, Robert Woodruff taught a class. Oh, yeah? And one of the guys who wrote, like, basically wrote practical aesthetics, like, wrote the book on, like, sort of, like, mammoth acting. Uh-huh. Scott Ziegler, he taught stuff. You know, so, like, you know. So, you got some real experience. Yeah, cool. Just being, like, an extracurricular kind of thing.

Yeah. Did you get credit for those classes? Yeah, the English department was, man, they were fast and loose. Yeah, it was like going to Brown in the English department. You could do whatever the fuck you wanted. So you go to Harvard for English and then you're like, you know that acting's your thing, right? Yeah, I mean, I did like playwriting and stuff too, so I wanted to do something. You got some plays?

Oh, that's a generous term. I did playwriting. I don't think I have plays. Did you write a play? Sure you did. You finished one. I wrote a play for a creative thesis. It's, I mean. I did playwriting. I don't think I have plays. Did you write a play? I'm not sure you did. You finished one. I wrote a play for a creative thesis. It's, I mean...

For a thesis? Yeah, a creative thesis. What does that mean? Like, if you were, like, wanted to say you wrote a thesis, but you didn't want to do all the work, you did a creative thesis, and you, like, wrote a play or a screenplay or, you know, something like that.

Oh, really? Yeah. But that's not the same as a thesis? I mean, I... They just... Yeah, I guess it was still a thesis, but they call it a creative thesis so people know like, oh, you didn't really do anything. You just like-

All right, there was no research involved. No, you typed with one hand while you pleasured yourself. But it still counts as the thesis. Yeah. And as an undergrad, you have to do a thesis? You don't have to. No, it's an opt-in system. Well, what does it garner you? Why do it? You don't have to. No, it's an opt-in system.

Well, what does it garner you? Why do it if you don't have to? See, that's the difference between Harvard and other schools is like, you didn't have to do that, yet you did. Yeah, that's a great question. I actually like, I just paused to be like, what is the answer to that question? And then I was like, oh, I guess like everyone else is the answer, right? It's like people-

Do that. There's just like, yeah, there's this like unbridled ambition and you just have to like be like, oh, oh, wait, I don't have that people that the the broad based nature of the liberal arts education is lost. I drank a lot. Is that kind of. But did you drink a lot in the spirit of being like some irresponsible hero of some kind? No, just because it seemed fun. Oh, OK. Yeah.

Did you did you go out and mingle with the working class? No, just because it seemed fun. Oh, okay. Yeah. Did you go out and mingle with the working class? No. Okay, so everything they're saying is true. Heavens no. Do you know how many steps it is down from the ivory tower to talk to the central square? Yeah, it's

one T stop. I didn't go near the Hong Kong, goddammit. Middle East? Oh, the Middle East, yeah. The Hong Kong is literally in Harvard Square. And I still didn't go. You didn't go have a scorpion bowl at the Hong Kong? Oh, yeah, I went downstairs. I didn't go upstairs where there was interesting things happening.

Right. Yeah, I stayed downstairs with the scorpion bowls. The Comedy Union? Was that what it was called? The Comedy Studio? That was off limits? I don't remember. I literally never went.

And then I moved out here and like all these Emerson guys were like, oh, you must have like spent all your time at the, and I was like, no, that was happening? That seems really cool. So you moved out here right after undergrad with a creative thesis under your belt and some big ideas?

Yeah, and people just, you know, started throwing paychecks at me. But where did you get your first break? Were you at UCB at all? Or did you, did you just audition? I did, I did UCB,

but I, I just wasn't that good at it. I still like, really? I mean, I loved it. I had so much fun doing it, but,

and you know, I was like on teams that did shows. I met my wife doing that stuff. Yeah. But yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to get on a house team. Right. And I still, those guys, to me, those are the guys that I...

You always talk about... Zach, like Zach Woods. Like Zach. Watching Zach improvise. He's a maestro. How'd you get the first acting gigs? How'd you get an agent? Through UCB?

No, nepotism oh really my uh i moved out here i was going to move to new york and do and try to do theater that was always what i thought i would do yeah but my brother my older brother uh mark lived uh mark with a c yeah uh lived was living out here he'd been out here for a while and he's like don't move to new york dummy like i you know come out here and then he just had this great big group of friends, and all of them doing different stuff, and two of them happened to be agents. And I was like, what do I do?

And they're like, go to class. And they were like, okay, now what do I do? And they were like, oh, like, go on this audition. And then they're like, whoa, that went pretty bad. Go to more class. And they sort of like... So they kind of, they sent you out? They held my hand, yeah.

They held my hand a little bit. Which classes did you do? I did UCB and I did Groundlings, so I did the improv thing. And then I got involved at this place called Stan Kirsch Studios, which is sort of an offspin of the Leslie Kahn megastar thing. And yeah, I spent a lot of time there. And I actually taught and coached there for a little while after i sort of like learned the thing a little bit how old are you super old

31 that's good did a lot of shit yeah yeah and i tutored and i bartended and you know i did i did all the things but you're lucky because it sounds to me with your sort of sensitivity and your sort of... Neurosis. It's neurosis, but you're a pretty grounded dude. But it sounded like it was close. You could have ended up a teacher. Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean? You're one of those dudes that you like the process and you know a lot and you're pretty good with people that like it sounded like because because i just that's one of the the paths there but for you go i mark yeah thanks for the job you can always go back to that just know that that you can always teach oh i'm i have one foot are you kidding me any minute all all of this is gone this is surreal but like this like i mean i just want to say this is crazy yeah like this is a rite of passage obviously yeah now i mean this is real yeah but also like my image of the garage is like the fake garage from the show so like being in here i'm like i'm like oh this is an interesting set it sort of reminds me of what a real garage is like but like like the opposite

well that's i thought you'd come over here once. Maybe like, I'm confusing memories. Maybe it was all over at the other house. Invite must have got lost in the mail. No, that's not it. It's just at some point I thought that maybe we came up here, but it was all the,

my memories are confused as well. So the big head character just seems to be you not like turning some things off that you turned on when you were doing my character when you're doing when you're playing kyle you're like full on and then when they have big head you're like i'm just gonna turn a couple knobs down that's really interesting yeah it's like you're literally the opposite ends of the spectrum of where i can exist right right yeah you're just shut down and detached and your tone doesn't shift as much. But whereas when you were Kyle, you're just sort of like all over the place. I think that it's just you bring it out in me. Yeah. When we're together.

That's right, buddy. And how many episodes of Silicon Valley did you do to be not allowed to do my show? I guess I can frame that question differently. How many, how many episodes are you in this season? Uh, the, I don't know, six or maybe six or seven.

Oh, that's a lot. Okay. So maybe you really didn't have time. I, I plead. So this, now this movie. Yeah.

Welcome to happiness. Welcome to happiness. Now you've done a couple movies. One where it was hugely promoted and no one saw it. What was that called? Yeah. I believe you're referring to The Internship. Yeah, The Internship.

Not to be confused with The Intern, which is the exact same movie. Which did better or no? I think they both did pretty bad. The Internship. But there was a lot of post-Josh Brenner images around town. Oh, man, yeah, you couldn't. Yeah, it was like the first season of Mariner. I'm like, I guess he's going to be okay.

I guess Kyle panned out for Kyle. Yeah, and then, you know, yeah. How many movies did you do after that? Just like, you know, most summers I'll do like a tiny indie or two, you know. I try to do stuff that won't come out as a general rule. Well, that's why I try to stay on networks and no one gets. I think it's a real good call. I think you're smart.

Oh, man. My parents figuring out IFC for the first time. They're like, Josh, okay, we're just going to go through the channel guide one by one together. Just stay on the phone. I had a hard time finding it because I wanted to watch in real time this season. It's like $1,300 and something. But it's got such good

stuff on it. It's crazy. I watched the show and I'm watching promos and Comedy Bang Bang and Documentary Now. Portlandos and like, you know, comedy bang bang documentary now. Yeah, Portlandia and the movies. And yeah. It's great.

Yeah, who knows? I don't know. I'm detached from that. The season is, by the way, like, I mean, I'm enjoying it more than ever because I hate watching myself on TV. So this season is like a real breath of fresh air. But also it's like you guys are doing something different I'm excited about it thank you you're making like cool smart

hard to watch independent films that are also funny and sweet I love it man I appreciate that it's so cool so tell me about this movie you're in because I didn't have time to watch it and I don't even think I got the right movie oh perfect everybody's doing a great job it's called welcome to happiness and it's a it's this first time director oliver thompson uh where's he come from what's his

pedigree he's a detroit fellow oh yeah big detroit sports guy oh okay and uh he's a musician and he's a visual artist and he's just like like i'd never i'd never met a guy who like just knows all all the you know like he's also like one of these guys that can sort of like talk about everything, you know, like, you know, music, art, everything. And like he just had this vision and. It's his script. It's his script and he directed it and he sort of developed it with one of the stars in the movie, Kyle Gallner. And, you know, it was just sort of this like group of people that I think just wanted to get together and be like, hey, let's make a movie. What's it about?

It's about, it's sort of this magical realism thing. It's, I mean, it's really about, you know, dealing with trauma and loss and, and past, you know,

things that have happened in your life that you can't change. Yeah. And it's sort of like, what if you could change them? And there's this magical element and you know, what is it? Who plays the magic person? Huh?

Is it a doorway or a ring or a fella? It's a doorway. It's, that's amazing that you just hit it. I was trying to come up with some joke about Aladdin and the lamp, and you just got it right. It is a doorway? It's a doorway, yeah.

It's a doorway. Man, that's so reductive. You've got to have some device. That's so reductive. You walk in and Marc Maron just sizes up the whole freaking thing. We've got to get somewhere we can fix the pass. There's got to be some portal. Oh, man.

Some way of entering. We've got to get somewhere we can fix to pass. There's got to be some portal. Oh, man. Some way of entering. It's actually very sweet. And, you know, there's great people in it. Nick Offerman's in it. It's good people. Brendan Sexton is in it. And Keegan-Michael Key's in it.

I like him. Yeah, he's the man. Oh, Brendan Sexton. Yeah, I know that guy. He's freaking amazing. He's really good. I like this guy a lot. We just went and saw, my wife and I just went and saw the movie. They, Brendan Sexton. Yeah, I know that guy. He's freaking amazing. He's really good. I like this guy a lot. We just went and saw, my wife and I just went and saw the movie.

They had a little opening night thing. How was it? And we left and she goes, man, that Brendan, wow. Yeah? And I said, yeah, anything else? And she's like, I mean, he's just like, you watch him and he's just like, you're just on the journey with him. Oh, okay, cool. And like the rest of the movie was, yeah, man.

Really good performance. Oh, okay. Cool. What about me? I love you too. What about me? Is that what you said? I didn't.

I just let my face do the what about me-ing. Oh, I know this guy Kyle too. He's been in things. I told you. Yeah, I told you you'd know who he was. Yeah. No, it's like a really awesome cast. And like I said, Oliver. Padgett Brewster's in it. She's good. Yes, and she's awesome in was. Yeah. No, it's like a really awesome cast, and like I said, Oliver.

Padgett Brewster's in it. She's good. Yes, and she's awesome in it. Everybody's awesome in it. Big cast. Big cast. Yeah, a lot of storylines. And it's going to open where?

Everywhere? I mean, it's in town here. It's in North Hollywood at the Lamley, and it's like places. But yeah, fine. Just Google it. It's a Lamley-level movie. That's correct. That's good.

That's where those movies start. Your inflection was wrong, though. You were supposed to go, oh, it's a Lamley-level movie. Oh, let me That's good. That's where those movies start. Your inflection was wrong, though. You were supposed to go, oh, it's a Lamley-level movie. Oh, let me try it again. Yeah. That's a good note, though. It's a Lamley-level movie. Perfect.

Okay, that's a great take. Print that one. Circle it. Thanks, man. Thanks for stopping by, buddy. This was so nice of you. I can't believe it. It's good to see you.

Thanks, man. Thanks, man. Not only is that kid a talented actor, he's a decent guy. That doesn't always happen in show business. He's a good man, that Josh Brenner. I like that guy. So this was very exciting. When I was in New York, I saw a lot of theater.

A lot of you listen to the show know that I see theater. Lately, I've been encouraged and given the opportunity and taken care of, which I don't mind. But Stephen Karam's play play the humans is now on broadway at the helen hayes theater it's nominated for six tony awards including best play now this was a very intimate very interesting very real feeling play about a family it all takes place over the course of basically one thanksgiving dinner uh where a young couple uh has the um the the woman's parents over and her sister and uh it sounds all very simple and it feels very simple but it's very haunting and very deep and very emotional and very funny and uh i i just really enjoyed going to see theater and i i'd like to make time to do more of that kind of stuff, just more stuff.

You know, we all know what the stuff we're supposed to do is and that it's supposed to be fun. But sometimes just the idea of getting there makes it a little tricky. But I did go to see the humans and I did have Stephen Karam come to my hotel room in New York City the last time I was there. We had a very nice conversation, as I recall. So this is me and playwright Stephen Karam. I think we need to open by congratulating you on your Tony nomination. Thank you very much. I'm saying that just happened yeah it just happened yeah like an hour ago like an hour ago yeah so what were the phone calls rolling in

scott rudin oh my god you deserve it we knew it scott did call yeah that was amazing yeah um yeah you know agents my i just talked to my parents oh you did yeah they were watching um uh you know it's all so silly but my parents were watching uh i guess it was on cbs Oh, you did? And so my mom was most excited that there was a passing comment that she overheard from Charlie about having seen the play or something to that effect. So that's what we just talked about. Oh, well, that's nice. They love Charlie Rose. Of course they do. I was just there yesterday.

Have you done it? I'm actually doing it later this afternoon. Yeah, oh, great. With the cast, with Jane and Reed Burney. Who played the parents? Played the parents and the humans and Joe Mantello who directed it. Joe Mantello's been around for a while, right?

Oh, yeah. Like he's like the guy. I think it's a modern miracle that a play like this has made it to Broadway. Do you know what I mean? I know, I saw it. Where did I see it?

No celebrities. You saw it off Broadway at the Roundabout Theater Company, yeah. So that's a very intimate space. And the set itself is very intimate and kind of compartmentalized specifically. It's big and small at the same time. Yeah, it's an apartment. It's like a two-level set.

Right. But yeah, it's your classic New York duplex apartment, which means ultimately not very... The bottom one. Yeah, ground floor basement. Right. One window. All very familiar to me. All very familiar to me. All very familiar to me.

I mean, that's pretty much a slightly adjusted version of an apartment I lived in for six years. Yeah. In New York, and you just sit there and go like, this is good for New York. This is great. It's only $5,000. What's so funny is, well, it actually was a good price. I was splitting it with someone else. And like the apartment in the play, they had their own entrances on both floors.

Yeah. So it was the perfect roommate apartment because we each had our own bathroom too. Oh, that's good. Everyone seeing the play thinks this is a terrible apartment. And I was so happy in that apartment i couldn't believe that i could turn around i had a this was my first queen-size bed it looked like you had a kitchen it did have a kitchen yeah the one that hadn't been renovated in about 20 25 years but well that's always the trick in new york is like is it a kitchen or is it just a nook

where there's a stove and no room to do nothing i've exclusively had nooks yeah to today and you can't cook yeah that's why new york is restaurants are like always popular and always have people eating at him even the worst ones is because no one looks at their kitchen in new york city and goes like i'm gonna cook in there right like it's got to be a real you got to be sick yeah or something to even make anything it's a chore but how does it when when you what well let's start at the beginning then so you read a few you wrote a few plays before this before the humans i did yeah but it looks like a couple of them you wrote in college um well yeah i mean i'd been writing i wrote plays in college that i would probably not want

to own necessarily maybe like the one that you did. But yeah, I started writing. I mean, I was even writing like sketches and things as a comedy sketches as a kid in high school. Really? Yeah. That's where it started? The craving or the compulsion to write dialogue? Yeah.

I didn't know that it was. I wasn't pursuing writing as a profession then, but I just, you know, I was growing up in Scranton. There wasn't a lot going on. Scranton. Scranton, PA. I don't have no point of reference for that other than the sign on the train, right? So Scranton's, well, it's the home of the American version of the office.

Yeah. You know, Joe Biden. A lot of politicians have connections to Scranton, so that's usually how people know it. Isn't that the sign you see when you're taking the train? Scranton, the city of industry or something? It's the electric city. But the steam town, all of its ties are to industry and trains that are no longer necessarily in service. But, you know, my mom...

A little rusted out. A little rusted out. You know, the heaps of the, what do you call it? The coal, the leftover, the... Sure. Piles of coal. Yeah, the big piles of black mounds of coal dirt. One thing I remember about Pennsylvania is if you ever drove cross country,

at some point you're like, holy shit doesn't end huge yeah yeah people are always like i have a friend in pittsburgh they don't realize that pittsburgh to scranton is about you know maybe eight hours or something so what why were you there what did you we've got to say about your mother well i grew up oh why was i in pennsylvania well that's where i was born and raised what do you mean well i know but why were your parents in pennsylvania what oh you mean what how did I know, but why were your parents in Pennsylvania? Oh, you mean, how did they end up there? Yeah.

That's where they were born. My dad's side of the family is really fascinating. So I'm half Lebanese, half Irish. My dad's dad, my grandfather, was born in Lebanon,

came here when he was about 25, died speaking only broken English when my dad was 17. But my dad's one of 10. Wow. He's nine of 10. So my oldest uncle, who's passed away recently, he's sort of like the godfather of the family and kind of like my grandfather. He was born in Lebanon too.

So it almost feels like it's one of those families where via my aunts and uncles, there's like multiple generations, even in one family unit because there are 10 of them. Right. So the age gap is pretty, you know, big. And you're growing up in this sort of... And they came here because of the Maronite parish.

You know, there was a Lebanese American community here. Yeah. Maronite parish. You know, there was a Lebanese-American community here. Yeah. It's sort of the Lebanese version of Roman Catholicism. I know, and it's exactly spelled like my name, Maronite. It actually is.

Yeah. People take pictures of those churches sometimes and send them to me and go like, you have a following. Let me know if you ever get St. Anne's Maronite in Scranton. I don't know if I took a picture of that one. Where did I see one? Maybe, Detroit has a population of a lot of, but you grew up in,

in like with this side of the family that it was exotic by American standards. I would say like, at least with the, with customs and traditions and cuisine, you're going to church and yeah, the, our fathers and Aramaic and there's this. But at the same time, what's funny about Scranton is I,

maybe it's because I was part of such a close-knit family, it didn't feel weird. Yeah. As I got older, I started to feel maybe a little aware of how maybe uncool it felt. You know, when you're coming at an age where you're like, oh, maybe this is weird that, you know, the parish that I belong to and the customs and everything.

But Scranton is also kind of just a hodgepodge of so many different ethnicities and churches everywhere that, you know, in some ways I felt weirder being like a gay kid than I did being a Maronite Christian. I guess one trumps the other. Yeah. Like, there's a certain level of tolerance for ethnicity differences, but there can be a blanket intolerance for gayness.

Yeah. And Scranton's so weird because it's so close to New York City, right? It's like two and a half hours. Oh, that doesn't matter. But it was just, especially at the time, I just missed the cutoff. There was no gay-straight alliance. Oh, just before everything started sort of? Yeah, just kind of just missed that wave.

And it's just, there's no Amtrak to get into New York City. So people in Scranton really don't take advantage of the city. People on Long Island don't, buddy. Okay. So that's good to know. I thought that was a Scranton thing. Oh, no, no, no. You go out on the island, they're like, nah, we don't go to Manhattan. Because when I got booked to do shows on Long Island, I'm like, aren't they just going to come to my New York City show? And they're like, no. Totally separate audience.

Kind of. Yeah. What business was your dad in? My dad, are you ready for this? He was the high school principal of my public school of the public school i attended uh-huh so he was a history teacher turned uh vice principal and then for the last god 15 20 years of his career he was a principal he was the principal yeah of my so you went to school with your dad and a big public high school too oh so that's a rough gig yeah it was it was it wasn't like being a warden it's you know what's funny is kids just say stuff

to you like like your dad just gave me detention you know and they'd like you know slam your locker yeah yeah so it was a lot of stuff like that i wasn't actually ever um answering for the the sins of your father well it's yeah and you can't really say anything to it so i kind of just kept my head down and my sister was older than me she was four years older just two of you uh three of us yeah and she was a lot cooler than i was yeah um so i think she in some ways probably helped pave the way she was a senior when i was a freshman and so there was a kind of um i think maybe enough people knew her that people just left me alone yeah yeah yeah yeah but that is a strange experience yeah you know so when you started uh did you start doing theater

in high school i did yeah i uh didn't always get cast in the shows, but I was in a production of The Music Man. I was a co-sound chair for our production of Count Dracula. So you were a theater guy? I was a theater guy. I also did, even nerdier than being a theater guy, I did Speech and Debate. Are you aware of what that is? I know about it. And it's one of those things where whenever I talk to somebody who had experience with speech and debate that I'd like to know the tactics of it. Well, there's all these different kinds.

I think you'd actually be really good at it. I feel like people who can do stand-up, I mean, the bravery that it takes to do stand-up comedy, especially, I feel like you're perfectly poised for success. Yeah, but everything becomes very personal to me. As soon as I feel that I'm losing an argument, it becomes like, you know, fuck you, you're stupid. I think that would make you a really exciting Lincoln-Douglas debater, actually. Well, you did a play called Speech and Debate about...

I did. That was one of my first, yeah. About high school kids. About high school kids, yeah. Struggling school kids. About high school kids, yeah. Struggling with things. Struggling with issues and things. It was a comedy. But when were you, like, comfortably gay? I mean, did that happen in high school?

I mean, were you one of those sort of, like, hiding in the theater department, kind of, like, not quite out people? I was pretty much one of those hiding in the theater department, kind of like not quite out people. I was pretty much one of those hiding in the theater department, but I also was one of those weirdos who was sort of just asexual before I came. I didn't have this trail of girlfriends. Yeah, right. Yeah, I did not break a lot of hearts. Okay. So, you know, I was the kid that was taking his best female friends

to all of the dances and the proms. Right. You can just follow like a slew of pictures of me with, you know, I was the kid that was taking his best female friends to all of the dances and the proms. Right. You can just follow like a slew of pictures of me with, you know, my best girlfriends. Right. And then, yeah, I came out to one close friend in college when I was like 18. Uh-huh. And then I came out to my family and pretty much everyone later when I was 20 or 21. How'd they handle it?

Shockingly well, actually. And I think part of it was because my parents really did know me, as did my friends. And again, a little mysterious when you make it to 21 without... Without coming out? Without a lot of sexual conquests or even like, I have a crush on this, you know? Yeah.

So I don't think I was shocking anyone. I had also sung a Miss Saigon song when I was 14 in a talent show. So I feel like I was paving the way from very early on. Finally, they were like, finally. We can all relax. I feel like in college, that was the reaction. And strangely from Scranton, you do, you do realize that because, you know, my parents didn't have gay friends or there was no real visibility of a community, of a gay community, that a lot of people did just think that I was a straight kid who was into musical theater and singing songs. The only gay community was the theater department in your high school.

Exactly. And I found it. Good. It wasn't that dangerous, you know, and it wasn't, you know, it was nicely, everyone felt well supported. Of course, you know, you can be your weirdo self. Yeah, yeah. So when did you start the writing?

When did that feel like, you said you started in high school writing sketches, but what inspired you to do that? I mean. Just other stuff that made me laugh. I mean, I actually remember just loving a lot of even, um, I did discover plays in high school and, uh, I'd seen little shop of horrors when I was in first grade. My sister was in a production at North Scranton intermediate school. Um, so I was kind of vaguely aware that there was this thing called theater. Um, but really it was even i mean i remember writing sketches after watching uh sherry o'terry and will ferrell right do stuff that just really made me laugh on saturday night live

and fooling around in my basement with my friend kim and you know writing sketches for class day and stuff um but in terms of like you know we read the crucible in high school and i kind of started to get jazzed as to like uh just what was out there so i started reading a lot of plays and then i started imitating a lot of the every writer that would come along that would kind of blow my mind i i would sort of do the classic you write like them for yeah embarrassing imitation of, yeah. And that's part of speech and debate, right? Don't they do a version of The Crucible? They do, actually. One of the girls, she writes a pop musical version of The Crucible.

Told from the perspective of Mary Warren, one of the girls who... Who's what, a bully? She's kind of the bully. So you're exercising your demons of style. Exactly. But the thing that fascinates me about theater and the thing that, like, as somebody who is relatively sophisticated

and understands why theater should be important and wondering whether or not it is as important as it was or was it ever, really, is that I finally realized the day before yesterday is that New York is theater in a lot of ways. And that whether anybody goes to see the theater or not, if a play becomes successful, it has a resonance throughout the culture.

It may take time, and it may take different forms, but it starts a dialogue you know in a lot of different other forms i think that's right yeah but but it seems to me that that people like you and annie and lynn you know that there's a generation of people that is you know whether um intentionally or not you know making theater accessible to a generation of people that may have not necessarily dismissed it but not thought it was part of their lives yeah I mean I think part of every generation is you know writers are trying to put things on

stage that that means something to them or the kind of plays that that they'd want to see so cuz I that's what I think we do you know I don't think it's a conscious choice of trying to be to don't think it's a conscious choice of trying to be um to necessarily like bring it bring a new wave of theater to a generation as we're all just you know where we're at in our lives and you are the generation and if you can get them to come great and exactly and they seem to be coming yeah i mean all you can do is put i mean it's probably where your your stand-up comes from too is just it's like you can only talk about the stuff that's on your mind that's right keeping you up at night and yeah and and hope that that maybe other people are are thinking about those

things too well i'm fortunate in that you know i'm emotionally uh somewhat stunted and you know i'm a 52 year old man twice divorced with no kids and a fairly infantile emotional structure. So fortunately for me, when my success actually started happening in my late 40s, I was just as appealing to 45-year-olds as I was to 15-year-olds who were having emotional problems. There's a continuity there. There's a huge market.

Well, yeah, I'm on it. Human beings with emotional problems, I think it's also why theater exists big spectrum it's a big spectrum but uh so when did you but even the decision that you know it seems to me that you know when you talk about for whatever reason you were you know interested in theater in high school or you found a sort of community in that that as it became more sophisticated and as you get older, you know, that community has a different depth to it and a different intensity to it. But you still felt that, you know,

this was a world that, you know, your creativity could thrive in and that you wanted to live in. So when did you know that? It was such a slow process. I mean, the truth is I, you know, I come from a family where there are no artists or people making their living as an artist. Right. So it wasn't like I graduated from college and thought I'd become a playwright.

It was really just I was so drawn to theater that I kept doing it in college. I kept writing. You kept acting or just writing? I did act in college, but college is where I started acting less and, and writing more. And when, when I had a lot of stage fright, so it was actually,

yeah, um, it was, it was clear to me that I was not going to have a career as an actor, but it's good that you got up there so you could understand what it feels like to be up there as a, as a director and as a writer, hands down.

It's, it's made me to this day. I think it's the best writer training I've had was, was just having been in a lot of as a writer? Hands down, it's made me, to this day, I think it's the best writer training I've had was just having been in a lot of plays. Even completely amateurish, you know, college theater, it's just, I think it's the best preparation. I'm astonished anytime a writer says that they haven't been on that side, because I think it instantly makes you a better writer when you know what it is to have to make sense of someone else's words. Yeah. And take the risks that are necessary. And take those risks. Yeah. You, you just have a better understanding, not only of what you're asking of actors, but, um, uh, it just, it, you've just worn the other hat. So

yeah. So when you were in college, I imagine that outside of what you experienced in high school and seeing musicals or being in musicals and doing that level of theater, or even seeing a version of the, or a, you know, what's the word I want? A play done amateurly. Sure.

You know, like a big play. There must have been a moment where you saw something in a real theater production that made you go like, holy fuck, the power of that is very specific. It's interesting. There wasn't a lightning flash moment like that, only because I remember being obsessed with The Glass Menagerie, because we had read it, and I had seen a production at Scranton Public Theater. But those moments of feelings of electricity really came from reading a lot of plays, which I know is weird.

I have a hard time reading. My first theater experiences, professional theater experiences, were where the Scranton High School different clubs wouldn't get on the bus to see a big Broadway musical. So my first show was Phantom of the Opera, my first Broadway show. So it wasn't that those experiences weren't amazing for me. They were. It was just, I didn't walk out of Phantom of the Opera being like, I've got to write

another, you know, I've got to create something as, I've got to create a heroine as potent as Christine Daae. Yeah, yeah. But, so it was really like a slow burn in terms of discovering, like at the drama book shop, like my mom would take me in and we'd get, I'd have, you know, X amount of dollars to buy these acting editions that were really cheap.

So a lot of the first kind of thrill of what theater could be was like reading, you know, a play like Angels in America, as opposed to- Seeing it. Yeah, being like 15 and having seen- That's interesting. So the first kind of resonating experience was to see the words

yeah because because my first professional productions were like 15 years into the runs of these mega musicals so it was like you know people were like you know essentially like out to lunch during the you know i saw with one production of miss saigon it was a matinee and you could tell the poor actors were just like done they were just done they were like we have to do this again at eight o'clock. This is like, we have to go back to Ho Chi Minh City. It's just the whole Saigon's going to fall again

later tonight. Here we go. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there is something funny about that element of theater. Like even like, because I went to see Hamilton last night and then I went backstage

and they were just sort of like, hey, what's going on? And I'm like, are you guys okay? You know, like there's part of me that's sort of like, hey, what's going on? I'm like, are you guys okay? You know, like there's part of me that's sort of like, you need to sit down for a minute. But do you sense how they're kind of wired?

Like, I feel like post-show, even when you're doing like, even if you're doing Long Day's Journey Into Night, right? Yeah. There's a kind of, it's hard to sleep after. Oh yeah, no,

even after a big comedy performance, you're kind of, you're looped. You're just kind of lit. Yeah, yeah, I get it. It's that kind of thing.'re looped. You're just kind of lit. Yeah, yeah, I get it. It's that kind of thing. But you mentioned like Long Day's Journey into Night. Like, you know, because after watching The Humans

and after thinking about it, and after seeing, you know, Louise, Horace, and Pete, which I think, you know, for all practical purposes is theater, that it seems that the line between tragedy and comedy in contemporary theater, which with my experience of it is basically you and Annie, is in some ways, which is very contemporary. You're both, you know, you were up for a Pulitzer. You just got nominated for Tony for Best Play. I mean, this is real shit here.

But when you think about Long Day's Journey into Night and you think about those generational familial tragedies that are purely, you know you're going into darkness in a way that you may not recover from structurally. Yeah, I mean, I did not approach this play from that place. No, I know that. That's what's so interesting is I thought I was writing a psychological thriller or a pure genre kind of. But I don't think it is a tragedy in the same way or even can be categorized like that.

That's why I'm sort of curious about transcending these forms, that there is this area between very specifically comedy and very specifically dark. Between dark and light. Yeah, but doesn't sort of move towards death. I mean, it does metaphorically on some level, like anything does. Sure. But yet, at the end of the humans, they're... A measure of hope. There's a measure of hope and it is... And a moment of grace. And it is literal darkness. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you don't

really know what it means, but it can suggest a lot of things but you know no one's going down for the count right but it ends with a moment of grace i mean right because i i imagine that when you do a family uh drama like that you know the the sort of specter of o'neill is always sort of there right in a way sure and all all the great yeah american family plays are there. But that's why I feel lucky that... I don't think I would have written it if I was approaching the play

thinking of that kind of canon. You know what I mean? I don't think any writer would. What are some of the other ones in your mind? Long Day's Journey. Right. Death of a Salesman. Right. Arthur Miller. Yeah. The Glass Day's Journey. Right. Death of a Salesman. Right.

Arthur Miller. Yeah. The Glass Menagerie. Right. Raisin in the Sun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the list goes on and on. Sure.

You can sort of chart an interesting line of, you know, from one to the next. But as you evolve through your first few published plays, i have to assume that there was a learning curve there for you oh huge and there still is i still feel like i you know i finished the humans and um it's never that you want to disown your past work right but you know how it goes it's especially being a young writer yeah from speech and debate to sons of the prophet to the humans there's a huge learning curve and so it, it's kind of like looking at, um, school pictures.

Yeah. You want to move past it, but you also don't want to, you don't want to mess with them. It's like, let, let, you don't want to like take the braces off of the photo or the bad haircut.

It's just, it's who you, it's a reflection of who you were, um, at the time, which is actually in some ways kind of makes them, uh, perfect in their imperfections. know if you if i went back to try to fix my older plays um i think i damaged them in some in some way even more you know in my attempt to

fix them right yeah have you seen uh different productions of your older plays? I mean, it's one of the weird... I have seen a few productions of them, but I also try to support them from afar with love. And, you know, sometimes I feel like I am a bit of a control freak. So I like to either be totally involved, meaning let me be involved in casting and be involved to talk with the designers and have a relationship with the director. And if I can't have that,

part of me is just happy to know that the show is going to open in Detroit in this production, and I can wish it well from afar. And it's not because I think they are going to quote-unquote mess it up. It's just... It's out of your hands.

It's out of your hands. It's out of your hands. And so in some ways I feel like the experience that other people would have watching it, um, is the right experience. And mine would be so warped by, you know, I,

my experience of just showing up on opening night would be like, why did they, yeah. Can I talk to you for a minute? Costume shouldn't be, yeah. He's overacting. What's happening?

Why is she crying so much? You know, um, you know, all the things you can do when you're actually involved in a rehearsal process. But it's interesting. As a writer, do you think that somebody can discover things within your work that you might not have seen? Yeah. I think that's why I'm a playwright. I mean, there's nothing more exhilarating than, you know, I mean, than when somebody, the idea that somebody years from now can take your work and reinvent it. Or that even like a high school kid's amateur productions can find a spark or a life or an angle or something about it that, you know, based on the timing of when they do it and who those human beings are that are bringing it to life

and putting on those roles. I mean, there's nothing like that. It exists as literature, but really it can be rediscovered again and again and again. Yeah. So you went to Brown? I went to Brown. How was that experience?

That's like the sort of groovy Ivy League school, right? Yeah, I mean, it was weird. No one from my high school had ever gone there. And so it wasn't even, I was so, you know, I was crazy anxious to get out of Scranton. And so I was just that kid that was just ready to go see the world. Had enough of the coal piles? A little bit.

And so I had like, you know, no one had even read my application. I researched all the schools that I wanted to, you know, and, but people weren't even, you know, no one, no one thought it was like a good thing that I was going to Brown. They thought it was like a two year, like VCR repair, you know, program or something. It was basically like, what even is Brown? And then I went to Brown and, and you know there were all these people who were surprised i hadn't heard of their high schools which i thought was fascinating it was a whole like cultural education they were only sort of like preschool nurse people who had been to

like um i even forget the names of it but you know like uh uh the the school in in dc you know my roommate had gone to where you know he was in was in school with, like, the president's, the vice, Al Gore's kids. Yeah. And people were like, you don't know about, you know, this school or this school. And I didn't, I just thought it was so weird that people, that anyone would be expected to know of someone's high school. Well, there's a whole, like, my buddy Sam, Sam Lipsight, he's a novelist. You know, he's got kids. And you got to start thinking about that shit

when they go to kindergarten. You know, when you grow up and you go to public school, and it's never even a thought of it. It's like, well, of course, you go to the elementary school that's near you. Yeah, and the public school that's near you. And you go to Scranton Intermediate School and you go to Scranton High School.

It's like, what? And then you come to New York and it's a whole... Oh, yeah, people are moving. People are paying $40,000, $50,000 a year for a high school education. Just so that you... So for me, college was both... Brown was incredible. And it's sort of where I feel like I came into my own.

But I also, I feel like I was just doing a lot of growing up. I was a type A, good student, but I also... And I was a little scared of my creative side. So it was kind of great to be in a place that, um, it was really, you had really easy access to, you know, even like mounting your own production, student run theater and kids. I'm talking like kids from the, you know, computer science department were doing theater. Everybody was kind of, um, uh, it did have a really kind of exciting artistic vibe. What do you mean?

Chris Hayes, MSNBC, Chris Hayes, we were doing theater together at Brown. And Lynn too? No, Lynn Manuel was at Wesleyan. Because I know him and Chris They went to high school together. Yeah, which is amazing. It's weird how Chris Hayes plays

into this weird kind of young theater world. Chris Hayes is changing the face of American theater. Right, Yeah. It's very curious to me that, like, cause I think he really wants to, like,

I think there, he might do it eventually. He was, he was a great director. I remember him, he directed a student written musical in high school. He, even then he had a kind of,

he had what it took to be a good director. Like everybody trusted him. Yeah. Great personality. And he's a very empathetic sort completely empathetic which is what you need right so but i actually hope he that would be amazing if he actually did come back to the theater world it would be great yeah you're the guy to bring him back you and lynn bring chris hayes back to the director's chair so what do you mean you were

scared of your creative side um i mean i don't know what your situation was how you mean you were scared of your creative side? I mean, I don't know what your situation was, how you got into the arts. But I feel like I was so practical about how would I earn a living. I feel like I came from a family where we were sort of very careful with spending and stuff. careful with like spending and stuff and so it also felt like i felt a real panic about um how would i even continue to pursue this in any way in any legitimate way and you know i end up just moving here and getting a job as a paralegal um and working for oh like eight or nine years in that capacity while I continued to write. I opened my first few plays and just went back to work the next day because I just needed that.

I mean, I wish I had a badass story. I actually needed security and knowing that I would have health insurance and rent money to be able to be wild and creative and free in my writing. It's interesting. There are fewer and fewer badass stories. Are there? Generationally. Yeah.

Yeah, because no one's fucking around as much as they used to. You know what I mean? You better be showing up for work and capable of doing the job. The capacity for producers, I think, and for audiences to tolerate the badass story has become limited because

the cultural lexicon of when someone's fucked up is like, well, this is too bad. You know what I mean? It's not like, yeah, man, he's out there like you know like or you get these playwright stories like he's drinking himself to death but he's doing these great things it's like i don't think anyone gives a fuck about that anymore and they're just sort of like well good luck you know that's funny it happens subversively and sadly now you know a

lot of that stuff happens behind closed doors and people are shocked when they hear about it but you know in the 70s when sam shepherd and patty smith were running around doing whatever the hell they were doing they were like fuck yeah rock and roll i don't i i think it's a much more professional environment in some ways yeah do you think social media has kind of ruined that too like there is no social media if not i think it's created a consciousness about it because it isn't you know i read the lar john laura wrote this incredible biography of Tennessee Williams. And, you know, Kazan has an amazing autobiography. But you read, you read, you read like those accounts of those artistic lives and it does feel badass and amazingly scary and wild in a way that, that, that does seem rare.

I mean, now that you're saying that I'm. Yeah, I think that something has happened. I think that... But that stuff wasn't in the spotlight while it was happening, is I guess what I'm saying. The constant surveillance by passers-by, the inability to have any real private life. I imagine if there was more than three people

hanging around Tennessee Williams, one of them would be tweeting about the party. Totally. Well, even this feels really exposing. I mean, because part of me is like, I write plays, my plays feel about as personal as I want to get in terms of sharing info about my emotional landscape or what's going on. So even this feels really bizarre.

Right. Well, this is a little, it's long form. I think that, you know what I mean? This is not some quick hit. And I think that, you know what I mean? This is not, not some quick hit. And I think that there were times where these type of conversations were had. Yeah. And I,

and I think they were had with people like Tennessee Williams. I think that, you know, not to compare myself, but Studs Terkel and, and people who were felt to be chronicling, you know, the,

the emotional and creative, uh, ebbs and flows of, of, of artists, you know, was around. And I think this is old style.

I don't know if it was ever done specifically like this, but I think that the attention span to take something like this in and process it is relatively new again, unfortunately. But I think just getting back to the badass stories is that when you read those biographies, don't you have that moment where you're like, not only were they geniuses, but they had some physical perseverance and tolerance that seems almost inhuman.

Absolutely. I mean, when you hear about Tennessee Williams or even about the British actors who were shit-faced all the fucking time, could you even imagine yourself at one of your plays you know your lead actor is just like drunk again yeah you know what you know what would you do you'd be like we got to replace that guy absolutely me especially mark fired there's enough drama there's enough drama that goes on in mounting an original play that i can't even imagine but if you had a producer who said yeah i don't know maybe you think twice about, he's going to bring people in, you know, and he'll hit eight out of ten. Of course. And if it's, especially if it's Scott Rudin saying that to you, you know, you've got to trust him to do it. And, you know,

it's funny, the Glass Menagerie story, one of them, I think it almost, it sort of frames the narrative around it in the Lar biography is, I believe the actress who played Amanda Wingfield, I forget her name now, if she's famous. Anyway, I believe she puked in the wings before. She was so nervous. You hear these stories and I'm like, I can't imagine getting a rehearsal report that's like,

you know, Jane Howdy Shell, you know, drinking, puking in the wings before, but you know, right before first entrance. I mean, I don't know. I honestly think I would have to just leave the city until the run was over because i wouldn't know where to put the anxiety and the stress that would come from like show to show you're nervous enough well theater is so that's what makes it so so magic is that you never know what's going to happen every time the cast steps out on the stage every show's a little different and a little you know so it's

always a tightrope walk but you add that element of like a drug problem, or is this person going to show up, you know, semi-conscious? Then you're really going out on the deep end. Well, I think at that time, the entire community was living on the edge a little like that, that they were insulated in their way of life, which is not really possible now. Yeah. that that they were insulated in their way of life which is not really possible now yeah and uh everybody was sort of in on it like you know i think that that it had to have been like a lot of times that the the the celebration at the end of the show was like we made it through right you know like the culture around drinking was also different the consciousness about something maybe about alcoholism i mean it seems like the envelope was before somebody was like you have a

serious drinking problem right it seemed to exist a lot. A lot of leeway seemed to exist. That's right. Well, there's a... and I wonder how that's like, you sort of changed. I do think that because of expectations and because of things needing to be new and sort of immediately powerful, that people have become very jaded especially with content and with things and you know like and especially when they hear hype about things they they really wanted to live up to to everything everybody is has this weird sense of broad entitlement you know that there's no real tolerance tell me about it yeah

yeah said the guy who was nominated for a pulitzer and now nominated for a Telford. No, I just mean that I feel like anybody who makes anything has that experience. Oh, yeah. Even when it goes really well and you feel like you've had the dream experience, you realize then that if there can be said to be a downside to any form of success, and of course it's relative, so it's not actually a downside it's all just it's like the best problem in the world is that when when people go to see something that they're told is great they are going with their own creating their own expectations and

baggage and and and if it doesn't actually line up to their what they what they're bringing what they had decided it was going to be before they saw it. Yeah. Suddenly a play that they might have liked if they had just discovered it becomes like this is not as good as Death of a Salesman. And it's like, well, the play's ambition was not to be a reality show competition. Yeah, yeah. And you got to put that stuff out of your head. It's not on you. Oh, of course. Yeah.

It's not your job. Your job is to just try to tell the truth so yeah well walk me through that a little bit in that you know the play the humans in the creation of it you know that you know what you've woven into this thing you know it's sort of the the cute um kind of new uh couple experience of you know getting this new apartment yeah and you know the sort of strains of being a young couple and what one's going to do and what the other's doing and then the parents come in then they're then all of a sudden there's there's you know a very definitive 9-11 specter hanging over it and then there's you know there there is a a gay not not gay struggle element but a gay character that that has a personal struggle that is,

it's not deadly, but it's concerning and a bit embarrassing. And then you have these parents, the mother who's sort of, you know, a kind of like, you know, fully, you know, kind of engaged and overbearing religious denial person who does charitable things. Sure, sure. I'm just trying to remember. Yeah, you're actually doing a good job.

The matriarch who is completely Alzheimer's and impulsive without any control of what she's contributing to the event. You're depressing me just to saying all these things. No. And then you have this sort of father who, you know, is trying to be strong, but is carrying his own burden of, you know, a financial burden and a personal burden. And to me, they actually seem like a relatively stable family in some ways, too, which is

what I think what's weird and strange and maybe the interesting counter to everything that you just said, which is true. Like all those problems do exist in all their lives. But the counter to it is that there's love there. I think they're an oddly functional family for all of their dysfunction, you know?

I think part of me was interested in exploring like the existential horrors of what felt like a very ordinary and loving family, as opposed to maybe the big issue being would these people actually kill each other by the end of the night, or hurl pieces of furniture at each other? I think it's less about questioning their,

let's say like unconditional love for each other. And I think the play is more fascinated in the ways each of them are coping or let's say not coping so well with these basement level fears. Basement level, where we're at. Well, and they are literally, they're so well with these basement-level fears. Basement-level, where we're at. Well, and they are literally stuck in the basement, yeah, of this apartment. But it's nice. I maintain that that is an amazing apartment,

and I feel like I get embarrassed every time I confess this, but Mark, there's a lot of space in that apartment. No, I'm with you. You can fit a queen-size bed in that alcove. Yeah. No, I think it's a great apartment. I think spiral staircases are great as, you know, I didn't have any art to put on the walls. And so for me, I even thought that was like a beautiful piece of sculpture.

Yeah, yeah. To put lights on it in Christmas time. I like the apartment. But did you just, now, you couldn't have just made that connection between basement-level problems and the basement-level set? I think my subconscious made the connection between basement level problems and the basement level set i think my subconscious made the connection uh-huh i mean now i'm making the connection yeah no but i mean i'm always thinking of it as as like like what's in the basement like what's in the basement but i like that because that's like you know when i'm growing up or when i don't know

what kind of house you grew up in but like my grandmother's house had this basement that was terrifying yeah yeah there's boxes what basements aren't terrifying I mean I guess some people have finished basements and but there is like I didn't just realize that there was like the basement went into this other back room that I'm like I'm not going in there there's nothing in there it's just a room with shelves and like and then you go in there and it'd be like three weird old pictures just laying on a shelf oh totally and and genuine like like spiders do amazing work in basements. Like in LA, they do amazing work everywhere.

My basement, there would be just extraordinary cobwebs because it just wasn't lived in. It wasn't finished. And even just the smell of when you feel like the concrete floor. But you weren't that aware in constructing the play of what happened on the upper play of what happened on the upper level and what happened on the lower level i think something interesting happened to me by living in a place that was literally below ground for six years um where you actually

were looking outside and couldn't tell even on a sunny day was it was it sunny was it cloudy was it um i think something did seep in in terms of uh storing away that it something about that setting did feel really spectacular because it both felt utterly naturalistic and like my favorite kind of set pieces that that element of not knowing what's outside or having knowing there's a whole world out there but actually not being able to access any of it, just seeing a brick wall. And that felt very meta and numinous and kind of like the thing that theater could exploit in a really quiet way. Like just having, you know, around Davidson's set,

it's just voided. It's just black. It's not the set with like the hints of the Lower East Side around it, the signs of Chinatown. And I think that works a kind of quiet magic on that those are the things that i don't expect an audience to process in any conscious way but i do think that theater can um you know normally i'm a fan of non-realistic sets because i think those really do glean yeah the cosmos right in a kind of amazing

way but i feel like you can also there's something i i was excited about with this play to play with really do glean the cosmos in a kind of amazing way. But I feel like you can also, there's something I was excited about with this play, to play with real architecture that slowly got voided. It sort of starts in a very bizarre white void, creamy white, like pre-war, the way they slab white paint on everything. And slowly as the lights go out,

you actually do get back to a kind of a black stage oh yeah this again this is this is how i was thinking about stuff and dreaming about the play it's not anything that i think um it's anyone should be noting or a conscious experience but this is like the the evolution of the discovery of you you know in your creative process that like because the more i talk to writers that you know where do you start you know like in your creative process. Because the more I talk to writers that, you know, where do you start? You know, like you said, when we talked about the subconscious, that, you know, what are the seeds for something like the humans? Because the humans are very disarming, very intimate, and very, you know, there's a lot of, I don't want to say humanity,

but you walk into a situation, I think almost anybody, you know, whether it's from their past or their kid's where you're like you're familiar with this you know right away you're like oh these people are our neighbors or these people that's that you know you you're familiar with there's no sort of like what the fuck is happening here right until things move on yeah um and i think that that's sort of like disarming and almost like you know it's almost organic that you you know that you feel like you're eavesdropping on what is this first meeting of... Is it the first meeting of the kid, the boyfriend?

It is. I think that she had set up one really stealth New York City drive-by where she conveniently was like, we don't have time for lunch but this is here he is and you know and this is the first yeah sit down experience where they actually get to spend time where the family meets the new guy yeah so where does the creative process start for you in making the play like what was the what was that seed this particular play uh it took a lot of twists and turns it started for me just i was thinking a lot about fear and anxiety.

And I was thinking about the things that were keeping me up at night. Which were what? Well, that led me to this, you know, I tend to do a lot of reading then when I can't access what I'm trying to. So I started to like, trying to read up about fear and anxiety.

And I read accounts of like, Lorca wrote this extraordinary, um, uh, poetry when he was in New York city after the 1929 stock market crash. And he just, you know, saw downtown Manhattan in this completely new way. And, um, I started to become obsessed with the, uh, just thinking about the big existential fears that everybody has our fear of poverty, our fear of ill health, our fear of losing the love of somebody, fear of death or fear of failure and criticism. And I mean,

gradually I took those fears and kind of built a family around them, literally kind of almost assigning. That was the very, very starting point thinking about, you know, a character who really would be struggling with this fear of criticism or failure. A character who's struggling with ill health. A character who's struggling with the older sister in the play just out of an eight-year relationship. Losing the love of someone. So I sort of built it almost murder mystery style. And then the one with probably some sort of PTSD around 9-11, which is something completely...

Sure. It's one of those fears where it's sort of like, when's that going to happen? Sure. And post-financial... I mean, money anxiety is dripping all over the play. Right. I don't think there's a...

I think every other sentence has some hint of, even if the mother's just talking about the price of a candle, and it also seems casual. I think the fear of poverty is really hovering over the play. And then I just thought if I'm obsessing so much about fear, what if I could find a way to tell the story via a story that's actually a little scary? And that's when I started to think about the psychological thriller genre and the horror genre. And I think what ended up happening is the play is now a genre collision. It's both drawing on the traditional family play, and it's completely smashed into this other genre that I love. Which is?

Which is the horror genre. I mean, literally at the end, they're all quiet nods, that I love, which is, which is the horror genre. I mean, literally at the end, there's, they're all quiet nods, but I mean, you know, Reed Bernie is literally going up a dark staircase with a lantern. And it's sort of the,

the, the weird homage to the moment of like a Wes Craven movie where the beautiful girl is going up the stairs and you're like, don't, don't answer the phone, you know, just, and also it's not,

it's not literally that moment, but, but, but when I think of how the phone. You know, just... And also, like... So it's not literally that moment, but when I think of how the play works, I sort of see those moments. Again, this isn't something that I think anyone else is thinking about. Right, but you know where you were coming from. Yeah, I think it's interesting to talk about dread in a play that conjures it.

Sure. The kind of dread that it's trying to explore. And I think that what's interesting is that the world you created specifically in in in infusing financial fear throughout all of it it's it's an interesting thing in that you know the class of people that that go to theater casually yeah uh you know like if if a character in the play that you wrote were to go see Phantom, it would be a big deal.

Yeah. You know, like... Huge deal. Right. So there's something about the sort of, like, maybe not complete lack of familiarity, but lack of lifestyle of many of the audience that is going to be entering this. And so, like,

whether or not they completely identify with that particular fear, because they probably have people working for them not unlike the people in your play right that all the other sort of existential anxieties that all of us have yeah you know are are present and and it becomes a full organism uh you know dealing with that dread yeah so it's completely you know relatable and i like that that that's something like your show would force, you know, somebody who lives on the Upper East Side to sort of like, you know, humanize themselves in a way. You know, and realize that no matter what level of existence you're at, that this shit is happening. this shit is happening.

And I like the idea, now that you brought up the lantern, is that, yeah, it is equally as horrifying as to not knowing, you know, what killer is at the top of the stairs when that killer is just really the next day. Yeah. It's like, how are we gonna... Life is terrifying.

I mean, that's, I think the play, I feel like it acknowledges that life is scary and terrifying and horrifying, but it's also hilarious and exhilarating and joyful. And there's not a character in it that you don't empathize with and relate to. And even at whatever their transgressions are, whether they be emotional or actual, where you're like, yeah, happened well that's great no that

makes me very happy because i do think at the end of the day i feel like people are so resilient and i think that's i think people are astonishing and how funny they are in the midst of these uh anxieties and how resilient and so it's it's certainly not to it meant to be a uh let's look at the horrors of this group of people and all like wallow in sadness it's kind's certainly not to it meant to be a uh let's look at the horrors of this group of people and all like wallow in sadness it's kind of like and part of me thinks it's like stepping back and saying look at how amazing people are like look at what we do even in these you know right look at how we cling to each other and look at the ways we cope and get through and everybody has these things you're not you know like none of this stuff is you know no one killed somebody nobody killed somebody and even the you know even the illness in the play

it's like you know she's yeah it's not stage four stomach cancer it's it's it's something these are things that you know in some form or another everybody deals with and you know and life gives you it's part of life there's no avoiding any of i think so and maybe you haven't encountered all of these fears just yet but i do think by the time, you know, we all hit the grave, it's like people... I think that is the whole trick of it, is that, you know, the language is so organic and it's not elevated in terms of, like,

what theater, you know, sometimes is to the point where it's alienating. It actually goes the other way. Yeah. And then it brings people in through the basement, you know, as opposed to sort of like, wow, look at the lights, what's happening? You know?

Now, in the process of creating this, how much do you, you know, how do you workshop something when it's not complete? And how do you start to trim these things to where they're, you know're minimal and exactly what you want. I don't know that experience as a writer, but I imagine you get a draft. And do you work scenes? Do you have people read it out loud?

Yeah, it depends. This play, it took me a while to figure out. So I sort of kept it close to home. And I tend to write a lot of drafts before I show it to anyone. And then when I get a draft that I think think where I think I know what the thing is and I'm ready for other people to start offering their, their thoughts. Um, the first step for me is just actors just sit around a table with actors. They're the best. That's the best editing comes from hearing good actors read your work. Seeing how they sound in a mouth.

Yeah. I think, I think for me, the, just hearing it out loud, your next draft is then, I mean, that's, that's the biggest round of changes because you can learn so much from, from listening to people start to try and make sense of your work. And when you say that you're most personal, like as we're having this conversation, you know, we're not crying, we're okay. We're not crying. I did cry when I saw the view from the bathtub, though.

You want this? You want to live here? I want to live here. But when you say that you're most personal on, you know, through the work, you know, what in that play, you know, out of all of it, did you feel that you were able to find some catharsis personally, you know, emotionally? I feel like the big secret is when you write a family play, everybody wants to know, is that your sister? Is that literally your mother? Is that literally your father? Did this literally happen? And for me,

you can be so much more truthful when you hide behind a shield of fiction and you can also split your personality. I think people underestimate how, how, how many of the characters are often the writer. Right. And I've talked to other, you know,

friends and colleagues who've, who've said the same thing where it's like the big secret is actually that i'm there's a lot of me in a lot of these characters sure uh instead of the very neat answer which is like that's my grandmother that's my no right yeah obviously right and also with these characters if you can find a delicate and organic way to do it they they can they can engage and and confess and admit and struggle in a way that goes unspoken. Totally. In most families. You were talking about the tiers of relationships in the play,

and I think that was completely subconscious. When I stood back, I actually, and I first saw the play in a production in Chicago where it had its world premiere, I kind of, for the first time in a preview, I was like, I think I wrote a play about me trying to make sense of relationships because you have the couple who's been together for 40 years trying to keep it together you have the young couple who's just made the leap to move in together right and you have Amy in the middle who's just trying to figure out if she made a huge error and where she's going after a breakup

from a long-term relationship. So you're seeing the start of something, the end of something, and the consequences of maybe what it means to love someone for 40 years and how scary that can be. But I did think it was hilarious. I did think it was emotionally compelling

and moving and completely engaging. But that is a weird line that I don't know has always existed, this line in theater and on television where all of a sudden there was these two things. Is it a drama or is it a comedy? For years it was a... Where did that come from?

I don't know. I think it came from television. That was a way of marketing things. It's like, oh, I get it. They needed to be pitched and packaged in a line. But now almost everything is able to contain contain both yeah it which is a which is more like life yeah well it's interesting to see even in tv that because there are the categories and a lot of these award shows and stuff where it's like best drama and right comedy

and yeah i do think it's interesting that theater doesn't separate those two that's great that's where the honesty of theater comes in and it's also like and I'm just excited for you I'm excited for you know for everybody because like I'm I'm new to this and I you know the more I talk to theater people it's like you know there's a whole history to this thing sure New York theater yeah it's always been you know relevant to the people that are involved in it and on a business level there may have been dark times where they're like, how the fuck are we going to get people to come? But not unlike, like you were saying before about social media and the lack of intimacy and also the lack of expression

and the inability of people to talk, even on the phone now, that there is a craving for the intensity of connection. Yeah. And I think that... And the communal experience of sitting down next to other people, watching live people. Right. And seeing them spit.

Yeah, there's no replacing it. Well, it was great. And congratulations on your Tony nomination. Happy to be here. Thanks. And the Pulitzer nomination must have been exciting. Super exciting. And I actually know Brandon, who's another finalist,

and Lynn, who won this year, are both friends. So that's kind of an amazing year. So the community actually functions as a community. There really is a theater community, yeah. I'm starting to feel it more and more the more I'm a part of it. But yeah, that's actually not a myth. And moving to Broadway, I mean, how is that decided? I mean, I know Scott's your producer, but what is the business side of that?

The business side of it is that Scott Rudin saw a matinee right before we opened, about a week before we opened. And, um, I was told a day or two later that he was interested in moving the show as is, uh, to Broadway. And, um, it still feels surreal. I mean,

if I'm being honest, it's, it still feels like I, if I, anytime I'm, I'm at the theater, I can't believe the show is, is actually across from Phantom of the Opera,

uh, on 44th street. And that's a product of, of Scott actually caring about the American theater. I can't believe the show is, is actually across from Phantom of the Opera on 44th street. And that's a product of, of Scott actually caring about the American theater. And because it's, it's slightly unprecedented that a show without celebrities, a playwright who's not a celebrity and a title that isn't, you know,

a known title of a play would have a commercial production on Broadway. So I don't, I still kind of am kicking myself. Yeah, it's pretty fresh, right? I don't think this is going to... I mean, I honestly feel like this is going to be a once-in-a-lifetime kind of a thing. Don't... Well, okay, fine.

No, I'm not saying it's all downhill from there. I'm just saying that, you know, writers of my generation, we don't see Broadway as the endgame because it's actually... In some ways, it's such a fantasy, especially if you want control that it has specific requirements. It might come with specific requirements,

maybe ditching the actor you really want for a TV star, um, uh, or just the sheer, sometimes the TV star is the right actor for your play and you would love to get that film star who loves to do theater, but you know, you end up might have to wait around for like two years for their schedule to clear up and so i feel like my generation we do

like creating theater off broadway and and living there because uh reasonable it's reasonable and you know you have control of your comedy and it's like it's it's it it you can get to the finish line knowing that it's what you wanted it to be yeah and. And I feel like Broadway, that feels like more of a fantasy that you get to make the thing on your own terms and then someone will actually believe in it enough to move it. Right. In this case, yeah. Scott Rudin was like the fairy godfather.

Yeah. And why don't we give some love to the cast? Who played the parents? So the parents are played by the incredible Jane Howdy Shell and Reed Bernie. Cassie Beck plays the older sister. Sarah Steele, a lot of people know from The Good Wife,

is the younger daughter. Her boyfriend is Arian Moyad. And Lauren Klein is astonishing as the demented grandmother. Ah, amazing. Real, amazing. Real, like, you know, just... You actually don't even know that she's... I mean, people touch her after the show. To make sure.

To make sure she's okay. Uh-huh. You know, she said it's both... What's hard about doing that, which I can only imagine how hard it is, is sort of made up by the fact that, you know, after the show, she says she can... It's like being reborn, because she goes to that place of not being able to

connect and being so shut down. And then she takes a curtain call and she can talk, she can move around, she can exercise, she can call people she loves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh my God. So that must be a trip for her. Yeah. Well, thanks for talking to me. Hey, good to be here. Oh, my God, that was great.

I could probably write a play, right? Sometimes I used to think that more whenever I talked to people. I'm like, why can't I do that? Well, it's not what you chose to do with your life. Sure, you could write one, but, I mean, yeah, kind of handle your expectations maybe i'll play some guitar how would that be i think i got a lick i'm gonna put my earplugs in though because i have to put my earplugs in to get the right tone without losing my hearing Thank you. Boomer lives! Boomer lives! Boomer lives! Boomer lives! Innovation is in the city's DNA, and it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future-thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary.

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