WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 713 - George C. Wolfe / Daniel Nazer

Episode Date: June 6, 2016

George C. Wolfe is a giant of American theater - directing, producing, and writing some of the most important works of the last 25 years. Fresh of seeing George's latest musical, Shuffle Along, Marc finds out what George wants audiences to take from the experience of live theater. Plus, Daniel Nazer from the EFF stops by to update Marc on the fight against the podcast patent troll and what needs to happen next. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics it's me mark maron i host this show this is wtf the podcast welcome uh if you're new as i see some of you are at times i'm looking around uh welcome there's a lot of uh

I'm looking around. Welcome. There's a lot of, I think, are we officially a rabbit hole yet? When does WTF become a rabbit hole? Let's say that I am. If you're just getting in, you want to go over to Howl.fm and go down the rabbit hole of the complete archive. So pretty exciting show today, in my mind. We've got George C. Wolfe on the show today,

who is an amazing and important theater producer and director. I went to see his new show, Shuffle Along, or The Making of the Musical Sensation of 1921 and All That Followed, which is based on an old play shuffle along and it's sort of that play is sort of within the play with some of the songs but it's it's put into a different context it's deconstructed to explore the impact of that play and the careers of the people that were involved in that play and it was it was pretty fucking phenomenal for me because there was a lot of history there that I would not have ever known.

And there was also a lot of explaining and historical context for trends in dance, in theater, and in black entertainment at the time. And the impact of that and how that fragmented. It was a fascinating thing. I'll talk about that in a bit. But he also directed and produced the two angels in America in New York. He did Jelly's Last Jam was his first big success in New York. He did Caroline or Change, which was another Tony Kushner play along with the angels, the two angels in America. Anyways, very important theater presence and power.

I was thrilled to talk to him. I'm also going to do a little talk with Daniel Nazer about where the patent troll issue is. Some of you who are just getting on board missed a panic and fury and chaos of when podcasters were being attacked by patent trolls who wanted to shake us down for a licensing fee of nebulous amounts that no one, I don't believe anyone buckled, but they were definitely, you know, Corolla ended up in court on this thing. And I guess a lot of us thought it was over but it is not quite over and we're always vulnerable to this kind of horrendous bullshit uh from uh from predatory lawyers and uh so-called inventors we talk i talked to uh daniel laser a bit about that to find out what the odds are and where that's at and how safe we are but it's good to good to catch up on that malfeasance the at&t issue i i some of you

are keeping abreast i if anyone out there knows anyone or knows even what this job is i'd like someone to come to my office with some sort of machine that assesses the amount of rf or bad waves or whatever waves are coming into my office because I'm no longer concerned just about the stereo and the horrendous machine-like techno buzzing that's coming through it. I'm concerned about my health and about the impact of those waves from working basically within a cell tower. And if anyone knows anybody or knows what that is or what I'm looking for and would like to help me, I'd like that help.

I would like to know exactly how much of the juice is just raining down upon me from the machinery on the roof. So this has now gotten bigger than the stereo, and now I'm worried about my brain. I'm worried about the impact that the waves are having on my brain. Is it frying my brain? Is it enlightening me? Is it causing me badness?

I'd like to spend time in my office, but AT&T is not enabling that. They've said they'll send a technician over again. This would be the third or fourth time to figure something out but you know how that goes with these corporations oh we got to placate this guy again send someone over we need the tower off of the building i don't believe it's safe there's got to be other options so please if a wave assessor could make himself present, can make himself known, that would be appreciated. If there are any wave assessors out there with a wave assessing machine, I would appreciate that. So this is important. We're going to revisit the patent troll situation because it is still happening and everybody

who podcasts everybody who appreciates podcasting and everybody who appreciates i guess the entrepreneurial spirit of progress in general should know about these fucking patent trolls because like look the podcast patent stuff has gone quiet a bit but that doesn't mean obviously that it went away completely. The organization that took up the fight on the legal front for us is the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the EFF. And I asked Daniel Nazer, a staff attorney for the EFF, to stop by and tell me what's going on, including how the case is going against the podcast patent troll. And that's what you're going to hear right you can get anything you need with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get

snowballs on uber eats but meatballs and mozzarella balls yes we can deliver that uber eats get almost almost anything order now product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Now. Daniel Naser, right? Daniel Naser, that's right. That's the way you pronounce the last name? Yeah. We have been in contact for a few years.

Yeah. Since the patent troll situation. Yep. The EFF. Let's elevate people's awareness of what the EFF is before we get up to speed on what doesn't seem like closure to me. Yeah. So we're a nonprofit. We've been around for 25 years now. We got 30,000 members and we have an office in San Francisco with a bunch of lawyers, a bunch of technologists, and a bunch of activists. Yeah. And we fight for civil liberties and innovation online. And part of that mission, particularly my mission, is to fight the patent trolls. Well, you guys came to the rescue of podcasters because it was a good thing for you guys to do.

Yeah. It was a practical, winnable situation in a way. That's exactly right. And it had a public face. It wasn't complicated. It was like, these guys are trying to shake down these little guys. Yeah, that's exactly right. And we love podcasting.

It's a thing. Often we're guests on podcasts about technology. A lot of fans of your show in the office. Oh, good. Nice to know. And it was very relatable. It was some guys who'd been sending cassettes in the mail back in the day and that had a very vague idea about content on the Internet.

Well, let's go through that because I don't always understand. Like a lot of the listeners, they helped out. They got some money to you guys, and you guys put this case together to destroy the patent that was being used by the patent troll to claim that the technology for podcasting, pre-existed podcasting, and this guy had designed it. It was never made into a machine. It was never executed. But it was a cassette delivery device on a timely basis. Yeah. But it was a cassette delivery device on a timely basis. Yeah, and these guys did try and make like a kind of a precursor to the iPod, but they never got any traction with it.

But what the patent was was an idea for sort of ordered content online. And it was very vague. It was basically a table of contents on the Internet with the links going to media files. contents on the internet and with with the links going to media files and the problem was from our perspective is that even in 1996 which is a long time ago in internet land yeah even then that was not new even then people had been doing had been doing that and that that's what we told the patent office but i know that the people that have been listening to this show for a while know that we were all well five of us or six of us were pretty terrified enough at this being a real thing. A lot of other podcasters are like, I don't know.

It doesn't seem real to me. But this was a very real thing, that they could have shaken us down for a lot of money. Then they could have licensed podcasters. They could have asked every podcaster for a percentage of money relative to their patent. They could have asked for a fee, weekly, monthly, daily, yearly, whatever, from podcasters and be legitimized in doing that because of the support from the patent office, correct? Yeah, that's right.

And you were right to be concerned. I mean, they did sue Adam Carolla and they dragged him down to the Eastern District of Texas and he had to fight the lawsuit down there and that's no picnic. And then they wrote, like, they let it, I think they didn't anticipate how loud we would all be and the uh the front operation personal audio or the office the empty office with a phone in it in east texas yeah you know it didn't even have a

phone at one point uh it came out in discovery that it was literally a mailbox forwarding address that they had down there that they were claiming was their office in texas no shit yeah really yeah that's fucking disturbing to me so what happened was is we got you some money you decided to take it on as uh as part of i i you know you're a non-for-profit so you weren't representing us that's right that was always made very clear to me when i was you know calling in a panic julie sort of like i would call her up and be like what do we fucking do she's like well i need you to know that i'm not your lawyer i cannot represent you can we cover lrs yeah yeah and but but ultimately you realize that it was a it was a

good case yeah and what you did was you got some money through donations and you did you have a bunch of lawyers that work pro bono and some sort of a harvard think tank or something yeah we we so we did a lot of the work ourselves it's me and a colleague another colleague called vera renari uh did a ton of work on on this petition ourselves and we also had a law firm help us pro bono so this guy's patent was from 1996 yeah and he just decides like i can make some money on this yeah Yeah, so he sort of back loads it Yeah, to podcasting Yeah

And the language is vague enough and broad enough and and dense enough for it to seem like it covers everything So there it's a big net these patents, you know in our view that this is a this is a patent where? That there is a big problem with these really broad patents that the people that are getting them didn't genuinely contribute to the technology. The technology that grew and podcasting came out of that, that would have happened exactly the same way if these guys had never done anything. And that's what you have to prove with the review process.

Yeah, with the review process, we had to find stuff from way back in the early 90s, mid-90s, and show it to the patent office. So we had like an MIT thesis that we like found in the MIT library. And this is what you call prior art. Yeah. So in order to invalidate a patent, you have to find prior art that will prove even one of the parts of the patent. That's right.

And then the whole thing comes unraveled. Yeah, yeah. That's right. And then the whole thing comes unraveled. Yeah, yeah. And we challenged the specific claims of the patent that they were asserting against you guys, which were the, that went to the server rather than the device. And so we went and we found these things. One of them was called the Geek of the Week.

Yeah. And it was a dude who's actually sort of a long time supporter of EFF who was interviewing technologists on the internet and putting it up there in 94. Right. Nice. Did you guys like get a high five of each other when you found that in the office? BFF, who was interviewing technologists on the internet and putting it up there in 94. Right. Nice. Did you guys like get a high five of each other when you found that in the office? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Looking for prior art is kind of fun. It's a treasure hunt. Now, patent trolls is a pervasive problem within the tech world. Yeah. Happens all the time. Yeah.

That if one of these guys, and a lot of them are not individual inventors, they're companies that literally buy up patents and then just go through them to see how they can do this. So you write a continuation, which is you rewrite the patent to a certain degree, and then you refile it, and then you go out and sue. Yeah. Technology that it kind of applies to. Yeah. That's a business. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And now this guy dave logan from personal audio from my understanding was not in that business this was a guy that actually owned yeah yeah yeah he was one of the named inventors from back in the day but he was partnered with one of these yeah you know it's it all pretty much anyone suing an eastern district of texas you really have to kind of raise one eyebrow at them about how genuine the deal is, because that's where the most abusive litigation happens. Right. And I think This American Life covered it. So what is it with this Eastern District

of Texas? How does the judiciary arm of this state become this sympathetic without coming under investigation themselves? It's a strange story. It's a federal court. It's located in Marshall, been as it's a strange story it's it's the it's a federal court it's it's located in Marshall Texas it's pretty sleepy town and over the years they've had some rules that are pretty plaintiff friendly yeah they support the the people bringing the suits and it's become more and more people go there and and becomes a bigger thing and it starts to actually support the local economy there's like printers hotels oh and it's it's it's a big it's just this huge thing down so patent trolls from around the world come there

and they can do their paperwork there yeah when they show up for their court case if there's a problem and they need to run off some stuff there's a new copy place down the street and there's a hotel that's got all the technology you need to make sure your documents are in order yeah yeah there's a big there's it's it, it's a pretty big deal down there. And it is unfortunate because I don't think it's really fair. It's not, it doesn't make any sense for Adam Carolla to be dragged out there, to be sued by a guy who actually lives in the Northeast and has just, you know, incorporated a shell company. Yeah, that's right. A shell company.

The thing is, like, thank God Adam went down there. But that's the other thing that people really need to know is that these patent trolls bankrupt businesses. Yeah. And the problem, the reason why they get traction

is that for me or Adam or any of us to defend ourselves in a case like this, we would not have the money. Yeah. And they would bleed us and then we would lose by default yeah so you guys stepping in was very helpful to the medium

and helpful to you know us personally but i mean it is a predatory business and adam couldn't even follow through i mean adam you know put a big bank together and they they dismissed it yeah right isn't that what happened yeah so adam you know adam really stood up he did he did a really good thing he fought hard down there and he crowdfunded some money himself right puts paid a bunch of money out of his own pocket as i understand it um and eventually they gave up they realized that he was going to keep fighting and i i think i think he would have played pretty well in front of a jury down there i think he was going to be a much more sympathetic defendant than right tv companies they've been suing right and uh eventually they gave up and

you know between us and adam and just generally the community like really stood up to them and i think right that's what did it but what about the other ones like yeah have you been in touch with i know they saw they did some podcasts with deeper pockets yeah and there was some uh the uh some other shows uh cbs shows that they went after what happened in those cases yeah well they actually went to trial in texas and they won who did the personal audio what yeah yeah and before we did so these things they they they go on parallel tracks and adam got out and then they went to trial against cbs and they won in front of a texas in in front of a jury there in

in marshall uh-huh and uh and that was that was going to go up on appeal and while that hat was waiting we won our case at the patent office and so we knocked out the patent and now that everything in texas has now stayed it's all just on hold and while our appeal happens because we've essentially killed the patent we've essentially oh so they won and but that's what they're sort of banking on if you if no one had filed that the the what do you call it the interparties review yeah the review then they would have just gone and made their money yeah and then they would have had a precedent set and once that precedent was set they could go after any of us yeah and it would be very hard for any of us to

fight it yeah that would in any court yeah once to fight it. Yeah, that would- In any court. Yeah. Once, you know, it does get tougher. You do get your own day in court, but it's, even if they have won against someone else, but it's so expensive. I mean, you know a bit about what Adam Carolla went through, but taking one of these cases to trial is a million dollar enterprise. Okay. So now, two questions.

One is, how is the patent office so vulnerable? Yeah, you know, I think, have you ever walked down like Venice Beach and you see all like the pot doctors down there? Yeah. And like you pay money, you go in and like there's, it's like, you know, to say the right thing, you get a card, you know? Yeah. And it's, unfortunately, it's kind of that model. It's like that you pay a fee and you know what to say and they issue patents. It's and they don't have enough time to like really look at everything.

Like we let me tell you a story about one of our most recent cases. We're representing this couple that live in suburbs of Philly and they run a website where these um they have a vote for your favorite photograph yeah and they've been doing this since vote for your favorite photograph generally just it's just a fun site yeah yeah they just do it as a hobby they're not even a company they're not incorporated and uh they've been doing this since 2003 and then they get sued in federal court by this these guys that own a patent on voting for your favorite photo and a patent that they got in 2007 um on like vote for your favorite thing on the internet yeah and as if that was a new thing in 2007 and you just you just bang your

head against the table like how on earth is the patent office giving patents like that out this was something like you remember hot or not and like this is not something that was new it was probably not something that should ever have been patentable it's just a banal idea yeah and and they're handing this patent out in the late 2000s and it you know just because somebody did the paperwork yeah i mean they they get half a million applications a year so they're just overwhelmed and they don't they don't really look they look at other patents and and journal articles when they're looking for prior art, what we were talking about earlier. And they don't really look on the internet. They don't really look at open source software.

So they miss a lot of stuff. But is that a policy in order to keep the patent office vibrant and doing what it's supposed to be doing? Or is it really just overwhelmed? It's a mixture of both. Back when I was in practice, we would do mock jury tests. We'd have trial in front of mock jurors. And they just love, you hold something up and you say, the patent office looked at this, a professional reviewed this.

And that's true. And it's very hard to get them to realize that it's a flawed process. And the analogy I used to like to use was, if someone holds up a driver's license, does that convince you that they're a good driver right like they were at fault right and that's one of those things where they see like the these lawyers that represent these these trolling companies you know they know the score so if you try to make an example of the process of the patent office, it's not really even admissible. That's exactly right.

So it's a game. Yeah. It's like, hey, we're not here. The patent office isn't on trial. This is what they do. Right. So now what's going on? Now, the reason you're here is I'm concerned.

Yep. So you're telling me that Davegan and his office without a phone his mailbox his mailbox uh business yep uh in texas has appealed yeah uh the the patent uh on podcast yeah yeah they appealed our victory at the at the patent office and it's at the federal circuit and the federal courts and uh we're probably going to be arguing it in July. So you think we have a good shot? Yeah, I think so. I think so.

I'm confident, and I'm usually a pretty pessimistic guy. If you might remember last time I was on, I depressed you a little. Yeah. Well, we're going to talk about a couple other things here with these stickers you brought me that are not necessarily patent related but disconcerting the electronic frontier foundation these removable stickers are an unhackable anti-surveillance technology place them over your laptop camera to frustrate hostile adversaries are you telling me that people are recording me on the occasion that i may be masturbating to pornography i i i hope not mark But it does happen. That's a real thing. People hack your laptop, and they put some malware there, and they get control of the camera.

And it's actually a pretty major problem. They'll sell, they hack a bunch of computers, and then they get access, and then they'll sell that to creepy people who want access. And it's a real problem. For blackmail? No, no. I mean, I think a lot of it's just people who just want to watch me working yeah they want to watch me reading twitter yeah yeah people have there's a whole channel of me like you know getting upset at tweets that's right

that's right the doc web channel mark yeah yeah i'm mad at tweets mark not working mark looking at things that he shouldn't but uh so that's, well, that's just creepy. Yeah. Not necessarily. It's creepy that it exists, but I don't know what they're really getting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, it's if you got nothing better to do, it's the kind of thing to do. But a sticker is a very easy way to defeat that.

Well, thank you. I'm going to put one of these on right now. You have one on your phone, so you're a little cautious. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. on right now you have one on your phone so you're a little cautious yeah yeah that's right what what other uh horrible things are happening uh in the hack world that can affect us you know regular people yeah well right now i mean the big battle uh that's that's been in the news has been apple

versus the government about about the phone the phone and and that has been followed up with a bill that uh senators feinstein and Burr have proposed in Congress that would essentially require companies to make their technology insecure so that just in case the government needs to look, they can. And we're super concerned about that because our philosophy is this is already the golden age of surveillance. The government has tons and tons of ways to look at what we're doing to spy on us. Yeah. With or without a warrant. And for them to make the phones less secure just in case they need to look at one particular phone is a really bad payoff. We have a much bigger problem with identity theft.

Yeah, it's happened to me. Identity theft. Whoa, yeah. I mean, that's a real thing that's happened to a lot of people. Our view is there's always to me the identity theft whoa yeah so you would i mean that's a real thing that's having a lot of people our view is like there's always things that the government can't get if you have a conversation inside your house with the curtains closed and it turns out it later would be relevant to the government like they can't get that it's like that but you could bug everyone's house and send it to a server and the government say well we'll

only look if we have a warrant right and and then you know but that would solve the going dark problem what's what they call it the going dark problem of people's private conversations in the house but we don't we don't do that because like we value privacy and and the government doesn't get everything right they they they have plenty of tools they have they have location they have good police work yeah good police work like focus specifically on targets rather than mass surveillance that's the kind of message we push that that that really what we want the government to be doing is to be focusing on on targets where they have real evidence and rather than just sweeping up everyone's internet browsing everyone's phone records which they were doing for

years and years um so that you know we have a government that's focused on actual problem people rather than treating everyone like a suspect. Well, God damn it. Are we being surveilled right now? We are being recorded right now. God, man, we got to take care of this shit. That's crazy. They can hear us right now.

Thanks for talking to me, man. Thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me on that was me and daniel nazer and you know thank god up to speed no look folks i do need to say that the eff took this fight on when podcasters needed it the most and we're always going to be thankful for that. WTF is making a donation to them right now to help keep them going throughout the year, and we want to sweeten the pot, folks. If our listeners also make donations to the EFF,

we will match every dollar you donate up to $5,000 in addition to our original donation. They set up a page for you to do this go to eff.org slash wtf that's eff.org slash wtf you can also find out when you go to eff.org what else they're up to and why it's an important organization so let's give a little back to the defenders of podcasting okay all right i'm going to talk to George Wolfe. More theater stuff. Very excited about the theater. Very excited about the musical Shuffle Along

or the making of the musical Sensation of 1921 and all that followed, which is playing on Broadway at the Music Box Theater. I learned a lot. I definitely was engaged. i knew nothing about it not unlike hamilton in some ways there's a history lesson but the difference is that hamilton was american history founding father history shuffle along was really theater history, black entertainment history, entertainment history, the history of dance, musical innovation, of show business.

And it was just a fascinating lesson that went all the way through. This was a forgotten play that was a monumental event. It was the first all-black production on Broadway, which turned out to be kind of close to Broadway, not quite on Broadway, but it was it was just went gangbusters. It was a huge success in 1921. And then everybody in it, except for Yubi Blake, everyone went on to other things. But the impact of it became forgotten for a lot of different historical reasons. It was a great show. Great and uh and you know me and musicals i found it very moving

and i was very honored to have this conversation uh with george c wolf uh in my hotel room in new york city the play is also nominated for 10 tony awards including two for george best book of a musical and best direction of a musical so this is me talking to George Seawolf in New York City. So the reason I'm nervous is I always feel a little insecure about theater, about my knowledge of theater and what theater means and what it's supposed to be and how important it is. All that shit. Oh, who cares? It's good.

You do it. You do it. You do it. Hopefully it's good. Hopefully people are engaged. Hopefully people take something home. That's what you do it's but but the like when you started uh getting involved with theater what was the passion because i know it's a broad question but it seems like a hard life in terms of

you know people's attraction to it at this point in time it's it's not it seems like it's new york that's it with theater no no no you won't take that. No, I don't take that. No, I don't. No. I mean, no. I mean, it's everything. I mean, it's like theater almost died when the talkies came along. Right. And then theater almost died when TV came along.

And then theater almost died because of new technology. Right. And probably maybe one day it will die, but it's not dead yet. And also, Broadway is not theater. Broadway is Broadway.

Broadway is Broadway and theater is done on Broadway. But Broadway is about a whole bunch of stuff. Broadway is about real estate. Broadway is Broadway and theater is done on Broadway. But Broadway is about a whole bunch of stuff. Broadway is about real estate. Broadway is about awards. Broadway is about ticket prices. Broadway is about glamour.

And it's also about people, a lot of people who work very, very, very hard to do what they do. And that's sort of what connects theater all over the world is it's one of the things that i think i mean originally originally i wanted to be like walt disney i was going to have an amusement park and so when i was the plan that was the plan i was going to have an amusement park when i was eight or nine did you picture the rides that you might have no i have i still have the plans i still have the plans i drew up the plans and were there different lands like without question oh my god yes i still have the plans i drew up the plans and were there different lands like without question oh my god yes i still have them one name of one land in george wolf's amusement park it's called uh i'm surviving in new york land i don't know and i'm stuck on that ride yeah um

and so and so and so i was and so i knew that i needed a lot of money and so i'd watch tv and i'd watch you know, the Dick Van Dyke show or that girl, any of those shows. I know that when you came to New York, if you were an actor, you made a lot of money, so I knew I needed to come to New York and struggle so I could make a lot of money so I could then have my amusement park.

You knew all that. This was my thinking when I was an actor. To be an actor so I could get money so I could build my amusement park. Sure. And you have. I saw one of the rides. I went to the ride last week.

This is, and it's probably at the end of the, and people who were in it would probably agree to you that it's a ride. It's a good ride. So it's, so that was that. But then, you know what? I think that, you know, because, you know, my first Play Color Museum was done in 86 and I was been working and I sort of got out of college 10 years earlier yeah where and and i suppose probably started in when i was 12 13 i i is sort of for lack of better words the obsession began but over time with theater but over time you know

all the various reasons why you want to do it like you know to have an impact in the world or to to have a voice or do all that stuff that's really really important is ultimately at the end of the day the thing that i love most about it is it it creates this extraordinary when it works really well it creates this extraordinary sense of community a whole bunch of people who have nothing in common except for they maybe they're interested or they're ambitious or they want to get hired or whatever, come together in a room. And if you can craft the right kind of environment, this astonishing community can grow.

And that's a community that extends to the backstage, the front of the house, the back of the house. It keeps on growing. First you add in designers or producer designers. Then you add in actors. And that's sort of the core because they're the people who are going to be with you on the journey, and then it adds into everybody backstage, and it keeps on growing and growing.

And at the end of the day, that's the thing that I keep returning to that I love in a very intimate way about the making of theater. You form these sort of contrived circumstances but authentic bonds with people and that that includes the writer and then at some point the producer there's actually everybody everybody you know and and you know and there's dysfunction as it is exists inside of every really with the actors in theater and oh i know it's shocking you know and you know actors in their eagles for 100, Alex.

You know. So it's just, no, but it's, you know, in this show I'm blessed. But also I have really, I tend to have really, really, really good close relationships with actors because I love them and I love working with them

and I think they're... And you've worked with great actors. I worked with some astonishing actors. I mean, you've worked with the best in the world. I would say that, yes. Yes. I would say that, absolutely. And when you, like, what I sort of want to actresses. I mean, you've worked with the best in the world. I would say that, yes. Yes, I would say that, absolutely. And when you, like, what I sort of want to do is,

you know, while I have the show fresh in my head, because I saw Shuffle Along, is there a longer title or the making of the musical sensation of 1921 and all that followed? Yes, ta-da. This struck me as the decision to take that review, to take Shuffle Along and sort of, you know, contextualize the entire history of black entertainment through it.

And with all of and also the this sort of very real idea of things fading, of taking the metaphor of Shuffle Along to actually mean shuffling off this mortal coil. Exactly. Exactly. To reinterpret the idea. Exactly exactly and that's the arc of the show exactly was you know it was genius oh thank you number one and you know number two i learned a lot but there was also this idea of the the shifting of how art works yes of how art grows yes and where it starts and and in the in the world of black entertainment that shift from you know where there was literally a shame for the type of show yeah that that that shuffle along was you know within years of it of it going on yes and so they were not only just forgotten but but consciously erased exactly exactly after doing something that was culturally and monumentally significant and what what made you like dig that up what made

you say like this is going to be a big Broadway musical where we're going to show all of this historically, we're going to educate, we're going to create new music and new dances and have the theme be this show to be the foundation of another show about black history in a way? Well, I mean,

thank God I didn't think that way because otherwise I never would have gone into the room. But am I wrong? No, but I'm saying, but when you start something, you have no idea what it is. Of course. So, I mean, because if I thought I was going to do all of that, I never would have walked through the little door. Because there's a little door. There's a very tiny door.

I think when you agree to a project, the door is very, very tiny. And you walk inside and you go, oh, this is just going to be easy and simple and a breeze. And then you get inside and then the journey takes you where it wants to take you. Well, what was the fascination with Shuffle Along? Well, it sort of happened incrementally. When I was in college, I developed this incredibly intense, huge obsession with Paul Robeson. And I found out that he had been a replacement in Shuffle Along. huge obsession with Paul Robeson.

And I found out that he had been a replacement in Shuffle Along. Then at one point I learned about Florence Mills, who was this international star, American star, and a black woman which was sort of an impossibility to imagine throughout the 20s where everybody worshipped her. Internationally.

Everywhere she went, people were going, this is a great artist. My guess is she was probably Piaf meets Billie Holiday meets Judy Garland. Right. And Tiny. And there's literally no recording of her voice. Really? Yeah.

Just like Buddy Bolton. Right. There's no recording of this man. That's right. Who is considered. So I'm just fascinated by these people. Buddy Bolton pre-Louis Armstrong. Pre-Louis.

Who is considered sort of the link between secular music and jazz. He's considered this crucial, crucial bone, if you will. Right, Michael Ondaatje wrote a book of poetry about it. Yeah, it's wonderful. Coming Through Slaughter. Coming Through Slaughter, which I read at a crucial time in my life. Right, right. Yes, yes, yes.

And so, and then Josephine Baker. And then I read that Langston Hughes went to Columbia University because of it, and then, you know, George G. Nathan, who hated everything. So you're running through

your whole intellectual life. This just didn't happen a year ago. No, absolutely, absolutely, and so I keep on finding all these people who, all these people, uptown and downtown, black and white,

lowbrow and highbrow, who formed this incredibly intense connection with this show. Yeah. And I was going, that's fascinating. That doesn't happen often because generally there are people who if something is successful they dismiss it because it's successful right you know and there were all these people who who who who were attached to it and then uh in gilbert sold his book this seven

lively arts he he described he used this phrase called a joyous rage, which I thought was just the most brilliant phrase ever. And I think that's sort of been an emblematic energy that's informed Shuffle Along. So I became really sort of interested and obsessed about it. Then Scott Rude and I were talking about it because he wanted me to do something. I went, oh, I've been thinking about this show Shuffle Along, and I had worked with Savion Glover for about 10 years. And then I read this fact that it was the first time that a women's chorus were not decorative, that they danced and

they were an active energy. And I went, oh, this show was significant in terms of the evolution of the American musical. So I want to know more. And then I started digging, digging. And then I started to find out about the people and the artists who made it. And they were extraordinarily fascinating to me. And so I always find it really fascinating when really, really smart, complicated people create something that is less complicated than they are. That tension is really fascinating to me because then you can look inside and realize there's something else more complicated going on inside of it right and a lot of us don't explore that deeply because what you're saying is because that happens in a lot of mainstream entertainment 100 there's a lot

of frustrated smart people going like yeah i lost control exactly exactly exactly or or you put that many people in together in one room it's bound to not work. Exactly. You know what I mean? So I became really, really fascinated by what happens when, because when you work on a show, wherever you are at that moment in your life, everything you have gets poured into it. Right. And so, and these people put together something that should not have worked, and then worked, and then was transformational.

And I read this really fascinating essay that because Shuffle Along was literally the first black musical to become commercially successful, every work that followed, in many respects, the tendency was to place it in the South because of Shuffle Along's success. And everything, I mean, everything that followed that has any degree of black people in it

is set in the South, in the commercial landscape. I think there are variations on it. And I think that also, like when you talk about stealing or appropriation or white culture taken from black culture, I mean, you went out of your way to make it clear that Gershwin took the opening notes of I've Got Rhythm from the orchestra. I did not.

UB Blake, this is not me, UB Blake tells this brilliant story that- Thank God he lived long enough to tell those stories. Oh my, forever. I remember him from my childhood. Yeah, of course. Oh my God, exactly. You know, UB Blake tells this extraordinary story because William Grant Steele,

who wrote the theme song for the 1939 World's Fair and wrote all these operas. He's an extraordinary composer. Played, actually, the oboe, not the clarinet. He jumped along. I went through hell

trying to find a jazz oboist to be in the pit. It was not, we couldn't find one. You couldn't find one? We could not find one. Not even someone good at faking? Yeah, I don't know, we ain't faking it.

So, tells this story that George Gershwin came to see the show repeatedly. There's this man named Will Vauderay who did the vocal arrangements for this show with Lederhard by Ziegfeld to do the vocal arrangements for a lot of his shows at the Ziegfeld Ballas and also did the vocal arrangements for Show Boat and at one time was the musical director for Fox Films for about four years in Hollywood from 1929 to 32, which is a sort of astonishing thing.

But he would invite all these people over because he wanted to, for lack of better words, pick their brains. And so Yubi tells a story that he bumps into Dooley Wilson, the guy from Casablanca, and he went, wait till you hear this new song that George Gershon has written. It's unbelievable. And Dooley Wilson sat down with the sheet music, started to play the song, and Yubi Blake said, stop.

He got up. Yubi Blake sat down and played the rest of the tune really and he's went this is ub story and you and he go how do you know that he said he said grant still used to riff on that tune when he was in the pit of shuffle along and that story so it's not my invention no no i know but it's the and that story i just thought was astonishing sure but not surprising well you know hey it's just like you know. But that story I just thought was astonishing. Sure, but not surprising. Well, you know, hey, it's just like, you know, there's a fascinating quote, you know, talented people borrow, geniuses steal. You know, Gershwin was a genius.

But it's just fascinating because at that time, because one of the things that I think was really, really, really, really fascinating about Shuffle Along, which is this show, Langston Hughes considered it a catalyst for the Harlem Renaissance, not for the brilliance of the artists who gave forth, but this mix and immediately... Opened the portal. The portal, exactly, this uptown and downtown meeting and connecting. Downtown and Harlem meeting and connecting. And so it was this

explosive time where people and this downtown elite white culture and uptown elite populist culture were connecting for the first time. And of course, when that sort of stuff happens, there's an incredible sort of like exchange of energy, idea, and possibility. And I'm sure, and in some cases, it's very organic versus, you know, the situation where you have Big Mama Thornton versus Elvis Presley. They're nothing but a hound dog.

You know, all that stuff is later. But this was sort of, in many respects, I think, sort of a very embryonic, extraordinary moment in Manhattan when the two worlds were meeting and connecting. And also this show is about, like as you were saying before, about the nature of Broadway, the nature of business, and that has been roughly the same for years, is that like when you pointed out

at the beginning of this conversation that Broadway's not about theater, it's about Broadway, and it's sort of what's happening now, oddly, in Times Square, although when I lived here, we were all very upset that it was now

becoming this light show. But that was what it was originally. Exactly. Broadway is theater, but Broadway is, I mean, it's like Hollywood is movies, but Hollywood is also a lot of other things. Right. And also because I don't want to in any way because I've worked on Broadway, you know, for, you know, for probably since I was probably 36 or 37. So I love working there.

It's just, it's a lot. It's people making the work. And then it's lights. And then it's people coming there to be a part of this glamorous thing. And generally the making of the thing is the most unglamorous thing because it's just wonderful hard work right and it's big shows and it's always been you know for every long day's journey into night or for every angels in america there's been a cat yeah there's been a and i think and i think exactly and i think that the collision of all those dynamics are what make it interesting

when it just becomes one over the other then it becomes complicated and i think the economists are making it very complicated but i remember once i did this i did this stunning stunning play called free men of color by john greg lincoln center and it was and it was weirdly received and it's it's it's a masterpiece and i was saying i that's it i'm done with broadway i'm over it i'm over it i'm great and then somebody had called me in for the you know to help out and transform this production of of uh the normal heart larry cream is astonishing play and it ended up having this extraordinary impact and people were there sobbing nightly and people who had gone through the age crisis who had lost friends were releasing energy that they couldn't release at the time because you you became numb

after so many of your friends dying and a whole new generation was there and larry and larry was outside handing out pamphlets about the war is still on and all of a sudden i went from going oh i'm sad i'm cynical i'm walking away all of a sudden i was inside of this experience which was transformational and people were going thank you i love I love it. So Broadway can surprise you. And that's also the power of theater. 100%, 100%. But also the power of theater just in terms of transforming people,

but also transformed me in the middle of, you know, Your cynicism. Yeah, my cynicism and standing on the corner singing Stormy Weather, can't go on, you know. And that's it,'m done i'm over

it and then all of a sudden oh my god i love broadway you know so it's just that you go through it and that's one of the actually it's one of the reasons why i wanted to to do shuffle on because i wanted to live inside of that stupid naivete that i had when i first came to the city and also just i want to make something and i want to i something. And I want to be a working theater artist. I want to have a Broadway show. I want to have that career. And that's what you're thinking going into this. I wanted to revisit that door.

But it's interesting that you have that juncture of art and your own personal life where you became cynical with Broadway. And at the moment, I imagine you saw the response of Normal Heart that was the moment where you realized that there's a selflessness that is necessary to service what theater is capable of.

But also I just think it's just like every single time you do a play you fall in love and you want the world to love who you love and then when the world doesn't love who you love the way you want the world to love who you love right and then when the world doesn't love who you love the way you wanted them to it hurts yeah it hurts your heart i i have never lost and i god willing knock on wood will never lose the joy of the making right because i love to make yeah yeah make things that i love to play with people in a room, you know, and make something that is scary and dangerous and fun.

So I'm not going to let anything invade that. Right. So if we walk through your tenure at the public, you know, where I guess most of this stuff started at the public and then moved, is that how it works? Yeah. So to go from Jelly's Last Jam to working with Tony Kushner on Angels in America,

that's a pretty big jump, right? Not really? No. Tony asked me to do it because of Jelly's Last Jam to working with Tony Kushner on Angels in America, that's a pretty big jump, right? Not really? No. Tony asked me to do it because of Jelly's Last Jam, so it couldn't be that much of a jump. Well, no. Tell me a little bit about Tony's process, because he, to me, is this incredible genius that I've seen him on the street,

and I had to stop just to look at him. Like, that's him. That's the guy that writes it. Oh, that's funny. Because he's a real poet, and he runs very deep and operates on a lot of levels. How was that collaboration? How did that work with you guys?

It was great. I mean, he's one, he's a dear, dear friend of mine. And I mean, it was a very joyful collaboration with a thing which is ironic enough. I was at NYU. I went to NYU in the dramatic writing program also musical theater program and he was there as a director uh-huh so you ended up directing and you're directing asian american you know and at the end time i was put on the wait list at nyu as a director which i

periodically remind them of this fact but you know it was it it was it was a it was a wonderful game because we've worked together on the Carolina Change and various other projects. So it's a joyful collaboration. So I think what we have in common is the sense that theater has a responsibility, that theater should empower, that theater should question, that theater should assault, that theater should be entertaining, that theater should be aggressive and delicate. So I think we share that. I think we have incredible intense respect and I think love of each other. And I think that there was a tremendous part one had appeared to great acclaim. And part one to part two was very much so in process.

And I am very ferocious and very protective of the work. I am very ferocious and very protective of actors and artists who I work with. And space must be given so that the work can happen. Part two, the perestroika was being written. And I said, you just go away and do that. Do that. You can do that. We will protect you. I will protect you. And not from anybody being vicious, but just expectations were so high. So one of the things which I always say, I never, I was never able to experience the thrill that people experience when they saw Angels, but I was able to hear new words and new speeches from that show that, and I heard them first. And I go, oh, that's clear. That's not clear. What about this? What

about this? So it was a lovely collaboration so yeah and it's a it's such a a profound and and you know dark and embracing play i mean like you know like i guess there's no way to explain to me or to anybody you know where someone like tony kushner gets inspired to to use roy cone as a centerpiece yeahpiece of a play about AIDS. And then when I saw Caroline, that was not unlike Shuffle Long, framed in a context that everybody could understand, but having a depth that transcends the form in a way.

Exactly. But that's the thing which I think is interesting about the, it's like in a play, it takes depending on the quality of the play it takes three minutes three to five

to maybe ten minutes to build trust with an audience yeah in a musical you can build trust with three notes because everybody

surrenders to rhythm in music now now what I've always been intrigued why the form intrigues me, but it's incredibly hard. And so this is the first musical I've done in 10 years.

I'm even intrigued because Noise Funk was 20 years ago because the form is so hard that- What makes it hard? Just because of the undertaking with the score? No, because it's 27,000. You know, there's a book writer, there's a lyricist, there's a composer, there's a director. What is a book writer in a musical? Because you's a book writer, there's a lyricist, there's a composer, there's a director.

What is a book writer in a musical? Because you wrote the book for last night's show that I saw for Shuffle Along. What is the book exactly? Well, the book is the dialogue, but the book is more than the dialogue. The book is crafting the libretto, the scenario. Right. So the architecture of the piece is primarily, probably though not exclusively, crafted by the book writer. So as a book writer, it was my vision to include this story in relationship to this story in relationship to this story. And you must do so with an extraordinary economy.

this story it's it's it's and and you must do so with an extraordinary economy it's probably in some respects it has the intellectual rigor that that that you have when you're writing a play right but it also has the craft like economy of a screenplay right or as or as i or as simply because you have it has to be sparse so that therefore the images are so large. Right. And the other scenario, or as I describe book writing, is, you know,

the book writer does all the foreplay. Right. And the composer and the lyricist get to have the orgasm. Yeah, yeah. And also with this book,

you had to struggle to integrate all the music of the original show, add new music, and then re, kind of deconstruct the show, build a new show on top of it. show, add new music, and then re-deconstruct the show, build a new show on top of it. Yes, exactly. That is the backstory of the show,

and have that exist as a musical. Yeah, and then craft the scenario, and then all that happens. So it's a deeply unrewarding thing, but deeply, but I really love it, because it it's it's it's hard and it's hard and you and you have to do it with extraordinary economy so you have to say so much with a finite amount of time and energy what's beautiful about the about the this new

show is that yet at intermission in some ways you've told the whole story already yes and that the entire second act is is sort of you know bringing the dance numbers and the music up to current date yeah and then sort of you know reflecting on the the the rest of these people's exactly exactly and also but and also as we've altered hopefully when you look back on one, act one, your perceptions change because act one to me is about doing what you do no matter what because of the love of the doing. And act two is

about this incredibly primal thing that everybody begins to think about when they get past 40. Will I be remembered for the best of what i did or at all or at all or at all and the most there's this most astonishing thing happened on opening night noble sissel's daughter yeah who i met who was there the their family was there came up to me and she said she said my father when he i hope i'm going to get this right but she said my father

toward the end of his life said i, I'm not scared of dying. When I'm terrified is no one will remember me. And it's just, you know, and that's just sort of, and the final, one of the final numbers in this song, one of the final songs is, they won't remember you. They won't remember you. And he sings it. Yeah, and the four of them sing it in Define. The people are singing it at them. History is singing it at them in the form of Carl Van Vechten.

But see, the thing that you did that I realized after I saw it and thinking about this conversation was that you dug these people up. Yes. And you gave them context, and you gave them their place in history and their place in American history and the history of theater. Yes. And modern entertainment.

Yes, yes. And because they deserve it. Because they deserve it. We talk about Oklahoma. We talk about West Side Story. We talk about Showboat. Oklahoma is like reputed the first real musical. It was a sophisticated musical

where there's an integration of song and dance all contributing to our telling the story. Showboat is considered the first sort of adult sophisticated musical. West Side Story was considered lifting the bar in terms of the sophistication of all the elements combined together. And as far as I'm concerned,

Shuffle Along was crucial because if for no other reason, if you think about George M. Cohen and the squareness of his sense of rhythm versus by virtue of shuffle along bringing jazz, i.e. syncopation, altered the soundscape of the American musical. But it is interesting that, you know,

you were able to sort of put this into, you know, a source point for the shifting of Broadway. Yeah, yeah. And this is like, tell me how the economics of Broadway sort of works, because this is sort of a bold thing to do, what you did, right? I guess. But you want it to be a mainstream show. Yeah, I want it to be, yes. Yeah, yeah.

And it seems to be doing beautifully, right? People are very excited about it. Yes, we are thrilled so far. Now tell me a little bit about the original Shuffle Along. Because what I really liked in your show was that there was a lot of attention paid to doing the work and doing it in a very compromised way and doing it on the road and doing it in a very compromised way and doing it on the road and doing it with little respect

from producers and maybe no money. But there was this joy in doing it and this horrendous process of getting that thing in shape. But hadn't they gone through all that by the time they got here, it wouldn't have been what it was. Exactly, exactly.

It was so tight. Exactly. And also the thing which is interesting, they opened up in May, which no show opens up in May because this was pre-air conditioning. And those buildings, you know, so it was swelteringly hot in those buildings. And they came in and nobody knew what it was. And they were at a theater on 63rd Street, which is, you know, which is far from 42nd Street. And nobody was famous.

Nobody was connected to anybody in that show. And they were just grappling together. And they came in $18,000 in debt, which is the equivalent of $200,000 or $300,000. So it was, so everything was conspired, everything conspired to make this show a flop.

And it ended up running for 504 performances. There were three a flop. And it ended up running for 504 performances. There were three touring companies. And mixed audiences. Totally, totally. It integrated Broadway because there was a heretofore rule that if black people came to Broadway, they would sit in the balcony. And there was an article in Variety at the time which points out that Negroes that shuffled along were seated as close as fifth row from the front. That's an article in Variety.

And that was shocking. Well, it's shocking and probably celebratory, this is happening. And then what happened then when Shuffle Along was a big hit and it went on tour, it toured into white venues and therefore, as it toured around, it inadvertently integrated every single theater it played in. That's an important uh historical milestone i mean everything even so silly as in that 63rd street in 1921 was a two-way street but because the traffic was so heavy on 63rd street because so many people were going to see it it became a

one-way street because of that because of shuffle along and so when's the last time the show changed the traffic patterns in new y City? I asked you that. So it's, to my mind, film is about story. TV is about character. And theater is about ideas. You watch a story in the theater, but what you take home are these ideas. Hopefully these ideas about America. So people are watching brilliant artists and a very entertaining show. watching brilliant artists and a very entertaining show.

But hopefully what you're taking home are thoughts about American culture and how it transforms and devours and elevates all the time. And you're also taking home the idea of the frailty of ambition and the frailty of success and the frailty of waking up one day and figuring out it's not your time anymore. So hopefully you take that home and you ingest it and allow it to live inside of your body, but you're watching the journey of the making of, or you're watching of, will these two teams ever get back together?

Right, but also in a general sense, that you're watching it unfold with spit and movement and there's no distance between you and the performers. It's that you're watching it unfold with spit and movement. There's no distance between you and the performers. One of the things that I think is so fascinating is when a movie is really having a tremendous impact on you, you lean back in your seat. When a play is really working, you lean forward in your seat. Because you're seeing something that is in the same proportion as you are. You're seeing your own frailty on stage.

Yeah, I'm overwhelmed. And I don't go to a lot. And I've talked about it before. If I go see a musical, I'm usually tearing up just because there's so many people singing. Exactly. Well, because it has the power. It has that power. Yeah. I just don't even know many people singing. Exactly. Well, because it has the power. It has that power. Yeah. I just don't even know what that is.

And it happened last night a few times, but also what you're talking about, the depth of relating. Precisely. And the fascinating thing about Shuffle Along is that at the end when these characters are talking about their own deaths and their lives that led up to

as they shuffle off the stage and you know before the the final piece um the the sadness is tempered by a a sort of you know respect and and and and and what you've grown to embrace these people yes like it's a lot of them it sounded hard and it was vague enough to not be too tragic necessarily but you were able to sort of accept it yeah without being like oh this is horrible no because yet and the series of of years and but also what the series of years it's very interesting because because i i didn't even know what i was doing when i just wrote the list of years. I mean, I did all the research and someone said, they said, all of a sudden the piece became real for me because I was alive then when they were alive. Well, even me remembering UB Blake from when I was a kid.

And he ends up the last guy on stage and he's sort of like, he knows it. There's a tone. Yes. That's sort of uplifting and comedic. Yes, exactly. And you're sort of like well that is life yes exactly that guy's the lucky one exactly exactly he who lives longest tells the story that's right exactly yeah i thought it was uh i thought it was great and it did all the things

you said you were even able to bring uh the elections into it in in in a fairly uh kind of you know eternal but but but you know relevant way yeah that you know, eternal, but, you know, relevant way. Yeah. That, you know, the sort of excitement around an election, which the original Shuffle Along was sort of a sub-story, right? Exactly, exactly.

And also one of my favorite lines in the piece, which is, which, for one, Amelia Bryan Stokes Mitchell says this line, he says, Shuffle Along celebrates that most American of freedoms, the right to vote for the wrong candidate. exactly and also it's loaded up because you know the the context of of the black experience around voting exactly that at that time you know was a dangerous event very dangerous a very dangerous event and that's what and that's and that's one

of his arguments that you know we were exploring substance in the context of this delightful little show. We were existing in defiance of the order of the day. And theater should exist in defiance of the order of the day. Now I want to talk about, like, because with Angels of America, again, that was one of those plays where you're staging of of having who was in the original who was the original roy cone uh ron liebman oh yeah that's who i saw brilliant brilliant amazing brilliant the whole cast marcia gay harden jeffrey right kathleen shall find jeffrey right you know it's just you know stephen spinella joe mantel let me just every element clock and everybody it was the most astonishing glorious glorious

glorious glorious cast but that staging of him in the bed center stage is what i remember that and you had this this monster yeah that you know you're telling an audience to feel empathy for you know to understand their own feelings about aids and about uh gayness in general and about fear was uh was amazing and like when you decide to do these moments where you're like that bed's gonna sit right there and you know and that's all you that's all that's going to be on the stage wait what was that thinking oh god that's 27 000 years ago i don't know i know it's you know it's just images it's very it's just it's your craft and it's hard to explain images it's very interesting because at one point, this is completely not angels,

but in Normal Heart, it ends up with, I had these two images. I wanted to show the progression of what was happening with AIDS. And first time, there were like 21 names. And then at the end of the act, the names are crawling. And at the end, I wanted to put names all over the theater, on people, on the entire scenery. And so I had that image, and I knew that image very, very early on. But there's one of the final scenes is is is the doctor

marries the two main characters and and when one and when one is in bed and about ready to die and I kept on avoiding I mean I we that cast was so heroic because we we did that show in a finite amount of time but But I kept on going, okay, when do you want the bed? And I'm going, I don't want the bed. But I don't know. And I kept on, I don't want to stage it. I kept on avoiding staging it. I kept on avoiding staging it.

And I didn't quite know why. But then I went, oh, I'm going to stage it with him standing and his partner holding his hand behind his bed and he becomes the pillow because I wanted to magnify the fragility of the moment. I knew this, but I didn't know this. And so if you live inside, if you live inside the material, a deeper part of your brain is seeing something and you just got to get out of the way so that therefore those images can come through. So the images from angels or the image from normal heart or any of the images from carolina change i've got a i've got to move my contrived brain out of the way so that so that so that these images that are living that are coming from a deeper more more subliminal place and are coming from a primal place inside of myself can emerge so in many respects and and as time goes on, I've gotten really, really good at not

forcing myself to know something. Because if I don't know it yet, it's not because I don't know it. It's because something deeper and smarter within me is emerging. And so I take that pressure off of myself to allow an image to reveal myself as opposed to making myself know something. Because if I make myself know something too soon, it's going to be a recycled image. It's going to be a recycled truth. Oh, I see. And I don't want to do that.

Right. I don't want to do that. So when I was speaking earlier about protecting artists, I'm also very protective of my own process as well. Right. So that therefore I don't back myself into a corner and demand something. I know something sooner than I need to know it.

That's interesting. And you don't know what the timeline is on that. Sometimes you don't, exactly. You just hope it happens before you run out of time. And there's certain, exactly. And there's certain times, certain images, certain images I instantly knew. Working on Jelly Slash Jam,

I had this image very early on that that i wanted to explore this relationship between jelly roll morton and his girlfriend anita through a series of of of of post-sex conversations and it became a number called loving is a low down blues and it was just very hot and very sexual and very raw yeah and very intimate and that image instantly came for me and so there are times where i will get an instant image and i know it's startling and fresh and then there are other times i will go you're going to show up you're planning on showing up sometime today are you hello hello and i'm knocking on the door you're there i'm being patient hurry up

you know but you have enough confidence in your craft to know that it probably comes yeah it is it's just it's craft but it's also something else it's interesting you know you know it's hard to explain Noble Sissel's daughter's saying I just want to be

remembered and a week earlier cause that number is a week old yeah we end up putting in a number they won't remember you uh you know and it's and you were tapped in you knew that who knows who knows but it was when she said that i thought a hole was going to blow in the back of my head and it's just they're just certain moments that I think it's about creating I remember I tell this story often I was working on a play in college

and it had music connected to it it wasn't a musical and I was over talking to the composer and the cast was on a break and they were over there making noise and I was just like come on guys get quiet we're working and I'm over there and I was talking to the guy and they kept on making noise and I said come on come on come on and then at one point just was about ready to get annoyed they were over in a corner and they had solved the moment and so and that's the wonderful

thing going back to that sense of community yeah if you have the right energy in the room and we have wonderful smart people anyone can have the answer right and you just be willing to collaborate people anyone can have the answer right and you just be willing to collaborate well you have not willing it's it's it's one of the joys if everybody is vulnerable to the moment yeah the solution is there and i was sort of i'm always excited because you know when you hear people that young people are like you know i want to be a dancer that's there's still a place for it yes absolutely yes yeah and there are so many amazing uh in that show. Oh, and they're so, like, the youngest one is 22, and they're just so, they're brave, and they're beautiful, and they're hardworking, and...

Oh, you gotta be. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It was a beautiful moment last night. Were you at the show last night? No, I wasn't. Oh. That, you know, when Adrienne Warren had the cigarette,

she comes out with the cigarette holder. Like, right when she walked out, the cigarette fell out. And it's on the floor burning. I get very hung up on that. Yeah, I love it. Because there's part of me that's sort of like, I hope no one steps on that. Is someone going to do something about that? And then at some point, like, you know, she's going on and she doesn't have to drag off it so she doesn't notice. But I

was wondering how they acknowledge that. You know, like, because I always like those weird little human moments. Oh, that's funny. And she doesn't talk much, and she's sort of in the background, but she did find a place to go like, ah, I lost my cigarette. And then one of the dancers who was kneeling on over here picked up the cigarette and gave it to her so she could hold it again. And I love that they had to deal with that. Oh, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

It was a great moment. So to finish up a little bit, how do you work with actors? You've worked with Meryl Streep. You worked with you know Jeffrey Wright you've worked with Patrick Stewart you've worked with the all these this cast a musical cast I mean when you you know what what is the how do you enter that relationship yeah I mean you know who you're working with yeah yeah no but I mean to me I think there are I think there are two fundamental schools of directing you either stand where you are yeah and demand people come to you or you go to where they are and and then engage talk seduce you know question and then take them on the journey of where you think they as as their character should

end up the first one is much more efficient the second one is much harder but it's much richer because because what you're doing they have actors every single person on the planet has secrets yeah from having lived on the planet as long as they've lived on. And so that if you create a healthy, clean environment, and I don't mean clean by any way other than where it's not about your ego or your will. If you create an environment where they feel safe, they will not just bring, deliver on the role, but they will deliver their secrets that they know as human beings. And then audience can feel that. And audience can feel when they're in the presence of that. My sister said something really fascinating. She said, she was there on opening night, she said,

at times I felt like I wasn't watching actors. She felt like I was watching those people. And there were moments, and it's interesting, when you're in previews, you sit toward the back of the theater so you don't make a silly spectacle of yourself when you're screaming and yelling you sit toward the back of the theater so you aren't don't make a silly spectacle of yourself when you're screaming and yelling and writing down notes so on opening night i said close to the stage arjun mcdonald complained she said because i saw you as soon as i walked out on stage and it was very annoying but i was watching that close and i was seeing all the dancers work

and and all the conversations that we had in the room, they were invested in every single moment that they were on stage. They were not just coming out there doing steps because one of the things I said to them over and over, at any given moment, everybody in this play is telling the story. The audience is watching every single thing you do. So you're either committed to elevating the material because if you're not committed then you're lowering the standard of the material and they had all invested in that and they had all claimed lovely special wonderful moments so i felt so proud because i felt as though all the work that we had been doing allowed them to feel like it was everybody it was their show okay yeah and that makes sense and ownership i mean and also i read i i'm it was their show. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. And ownership. I mean, and also I read, I'm trying to remember who it was.

I read this French film director, I'm trying to remember who it was, who said the one, the second you spit, you attack an actor's spirit they never recover they never trust you again the same way they just a part they will do the work they will do the job but they never a part of their spirit will never ever trust you again and that's where you get that you protect yes the process and the vulnerability precisely exactly you know exactly and and you get that you protect the process and the vulnerability. Precisely, exactly. You know, exactly.

And you work, and so I work very hard in never allowing my own fear or damage or doubt to cloud the room. I work very, very hard on that. I will never forget, I was in an ice cream uh parlor one time and there was a young father there with his with his wife and she was pregnant and they had three children yeah and and i saw and he told everybody could buy whatever they want and they had a limited amount of money and the kids being kids ordered the most expensive thing and he became very frustrated and embarrassed so he then yelled at the wife and the wife then yelled at the oldest kid and the oldest kid then yelled at the smallest kid and you just saw this dynamic of if you abuse it it doesn't

leave the room it gets spread around yeah it gets spread around and so that therefore if if if you create if you bring unnecessary energy into the room, it doesn't leave. It just spreads around. And the opposite of that is something that in talking to you, I realized that even if theater, as we know it, Broadway or whatever, that the ideas and experiences that happen there eventually, not unlike you know shuffle along begin to inform the entire culture precisely exactly that you know even if no one sees the play that is out there somewhere precisely that those conversations and those 100 spread out exactly around the world it's spread out all around the world i mean there was this exactly and and and it alters people's and alters it alters in very subtle ways.

It's what they were so fascinated. There's a story that after Shuffle Around was a big hit in New York, it went to Boston. And all these black people were showing up and buying tickets for the show. were showing up and buying tickets for the show. And the theater owners were wondering if they're going to have an all-black audience, but it turned out all these very wealthy white people had sent their chauffeurs and their butlers to buy the tickets.

But it's just the phenomenon of that. And I don't know what that was whether that was just convenience whether that was embarrassment I have no idea but it was just

it's like I love the idea of all these black people they're buying tickets for this quote unquote black show for their for their

for their white employees to come see it there's already some kind of weird odd dialogue beginning to happen in a fast really and that just happened no no this was this was no this was back in 1921 like because no not now yeah no no in my mind because like boston is one of the more strangely still segregated 100 exactly no this was like 1920

like 1922 when it not 22 23 when i started to go so it's just it's it's it's really is just fascinating how these little subtle differences how it can how it can reverberate, how it's a conversation of angels, whatever show, Fun Home, Hamilton, whatever it is, I don't care what it, however it managed to change dialogue around that and then ultimately becomes an HBO piece. Yeah, precisely. It keeps building the conversation sometimes later than it should, but it does. Exactly. It forms everything, not unlike in Shuffle Along where that changed theater. It completely and totally changed Broadway. And now because, you know, may our revival run for a long time because it's like now and now these names that should be known are being known again. And also people like me are going to go home and look up these people.

Yes, exactly. Engage in the history of it and learn something. Exactly. And working with Savion Glover Well, that must have been great. He's like the tap guy. He is the tap guy. He's like the tap guru. No, I think I met Savion when he was 17.

Uh-huh. You know, because he was in Jelly. Yeah. You know, and then we worked together on, and then he was in Jelly on tour. And then when I took over the public I said come make a show here and then he said well I want to make it with you and then as a result

of it and I had recently been to see a Knicks game and I saw you know the rhythm how rhythm was controlling the crowd and I went oh I want to play around with making an audience from the time they sit down to the end

respond to a rhythm so that they realize they are part of the rhythm and they are connected to the rhythm. And noise funk sort of grew from that phenomenon. And it happened in that show in Shuffle Along as well. It's 100%. Did he do all the choreography? He did all the choreography, yes.

It was stunning. It was stunning. Yes. Well, I think we covered it a lot. Do you? I feel good. I feel good. Your brain was working.

Yeah, I guess so. Sometimes, mostly. We didn't do a lot of Do you? I feel good. I feel good. Your brain was working. Yeah, I guess so. Sometimes, mostly. We didn't do a lot of where you come from and what your experience was getting into theater. Let's do a little of that. Okay. Where did you come from? I'm from Frankfort, Kentucky.

Is that mid-Kentucky? It's probably about an hour. No, it's northern. I guess it's probably an hour and a half or something like that from cincinnati it's the capital it's a very tiny little town big family yes yeah not big family you know four one two three four four four brothers and sisters three yes i'm the fourth one and uh and my town was segregated for the first five years of my life first probably seven years of my life do you ever do you remember of my life. Do you remember that?

I was so protected from that. But I remember very specifically Martin Luther King. There was a march on Franklin and Martin Luther King came to town. And my grandmother, who was a formidable figure, took me out of school and we marched. We marched across the bridge up to the state capital where he spoke and then there's this wonderful story that my cousin Teresa tells that she had she had she was by this time all of the school systems were edge were integrated and my cousin was probably like in sixth grade and they went to and she and a friend of hers went to see Martin Luther King

speak and then they said okay well let's go back and we're going to be suspended now. And this, because they had been warned that if they left school, they were going to be suspended. And this man said, what did you say? And they said, well, our principal told us that if we left, we were going to be suspended. He said, come with me. And then he took them backstage to Martin Luther King. They got in the car. Martin Luther King then drove to Second Street School and knocked

on the principal's door and went in and talked to him, and then they were not suspended. So these just sort of wonderful, wonderful, wonderful stories that I, so all the stories that I was told and all the stories that were shared with me were not go-down-Moses, powerless stories. They were all stories of people in defiance of and celebration of community so all of this stuff was was passed on to me and so i felt very protected it was happening the one thing that i remember very specifically that i viewed my grandmother as this formidable person who no one could stop and she was incredibly very protective

of me when 101 Dalmatians came to Frankfurt it was playing at the Capitol Theater and the Capitol Theater was the segregated theater and there was the Grand where the black people sat in the balcony and

and then and the white people and generally the white lower class people yeah set set down on the first floor and i wanted to see 101 dalmatians going back to my disney obsession and my grandmother calling up and wanting to know the show times and explaining that she was colored or negro whatever word she told And they told her she couldn't bring me. And so that was sort of the first time seeing, being in the presence of this person who was like a superhero, who was like Thor or whatever,

who could knock down walls, that I saw there was a wall that she couldn't knock down. Yeah, and everything that you just said in those two minutes are the themes of how you approach theater, protection, defiance, and community. Exactly. It's very interesting. Very much so.

And it was put in that with community, we have protection, and it's our job to defy. Exactly. And that's how I was raised. I was raised to be. I call it an integration warrior. I was trained to be, I was, I was, I was, I was, I call it an integration warrior. I was trained to invade. Yeah.

I was trained to invade rooms. And then once I got in the room, it wasn't enough that I was in the room. I had to open the doors and redefine the texture of the room. That was my thought process at the public theater. And it wasn't specifically about race. It was very much so invite people into this building who can work and play so it's so that sort of training and that's what i consider and it's very much so legacy of joe papp but it's very much so the legacy of my family is that once you're in the

room you have a responsibility to create as many opportunities for as many people as you possibly can and then the the the community the gay community and the black community, you know, is moving through you to some degree. Yeah, yes, yes, exactly. Or just, and I just even consider it, it's like, you know, when I was at the Public, I would go, oh, they're not gonna, I don't know if another theater

is gonna hire them to do a play. I have to do their play. You know what I mean? Because I was protected and I was, and very early on, you know, I've, you know, I've very, I've had this, I've struggled, but I got out of college and I struggled for 10 years. But then Colored Museum was at the Public Theater in 1986. And six years later, I was running the place.

And then my first show on Broadway was Jelly Slash Jam. And I went, that was hard. It's going to take a lot of time. And then the next year, I was back with Angels in America. And then Angels in America, I got offered the chance to run the public theater.

And so I've had this sort of gloriously wonderful career. There have been sad moments and all this other sort of stuff. But I've felt so incredibly blessed. So I feel this exaggerated sense of responsibility because not as some plain penance for my success, but that's just what you do. And that's what was done for me very early on.

And I went to this school where it was like it was Negro History Week instead of month, and it was a black man invented the traffic light. There was literally – it was like this – it was borderline indoctrination. Go forth with armor. Go forth with confidence. Go forth knowing that you are smart and special so that therefore when you come into contact with resistance, know it's about the person who is doing the resistance towards you. It's not about anything intrinsic in you. That was put in your head. Very, very, very early on. And the thing which was very interesting, then I then went to a public, predominantly white high school. I

studied really intensely when I was little. So they decided I was stupid and spoke to my mother about putting me in remedial classes. And she went, you're crazy. That won't be happening. I didn't know any of this, but I could tell because I was so spoiled as a child. I could tell when I was being dismissed. So in my mind, I went, oh, no, no, no, no. This won't be. And by the time I turned into Evita Peron, by the time I left my high school, I was, I was, you know, I was editor. I was editor of the newspaper.

I was a drama. I was the drum major. I was shit. I was no good at, but I just went out just to conquer. So, you know, and so, but I, and that sense of confidence, but in every single step of the way, it was interestingly enough, it was theater that gave me my power. My mother went away to get her doctorate at Miami University and she took me along and I was always obsessed with theater and I joined a theater group and that gave me the confidence to go back to begin to become oh the funny person at my high school and then when my

when just before that time she came to nyu to do some advanced degree work and she brought me along and that's when i saw new york theater so every single step of the way, interesting theater to me wasn't just something that was enjoyable. Theater was giving me my extra sense of my own power, my extra sense of confidence in how to go into the world. And I remember this moment very specifically. I was probably like about 10 or 11. The principal at my school, we were invited to some cultural exchange, PTA thing, for a predominantly white school in Frankfort. And we sang this song. I don't remember any of the lyrics.

These truths we are declaring that all men are the same, that liberty is a torch burning with a steady flame. And our principal told us that when we came to the line that liberty is a torch burning with a steady flame, if we sing it with ferocity and intensity, all the racism in the room will fall away. And so I don't remember the next line, the song goes on for about four or five more lines. I don't remember because I just remember screaming that liberty is a torch burning with a steady flame. But I consider it the most astonishing thing because someone told me

if I committed to the language, I could change the world. That didn't happen, but I believed it. And so to this very day, I believe it. So to this very day, when I go into a rehearsal room with actors, I pass on the power of committing to the language, committing to the words to them, and it informs how I do what I do. Beautiful. Thank you for talking, George. Thank you very much. If you can, I highly recommend seeing Shuffle Along.

It's playing on Broadway at the Music Box Theater. I really want to thank George for talking to me. Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. You can check my tour dates coming up in July. I'll be going to Spokane and Salt Lake City and Bloomington, Indiana and Phoenix and Albuquerque. I'm going to do one night in.

I'm going to Rochester. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour to check my dates all right okay we good all right play guitar sure ¶¶ Boomer Lives! Almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials.

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