WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 719 - John C. Reilly / Brett Gelman

Episode Date: June 27, 2016

People think they know John C. Reilly. There's something about his performances that seem so familiar, even though he doesn't like to reveal much about himself personally. Marc tries to pull the curtain back a bit, talking with John about Chicago, clowns, Laurel and Hardy, Boogie Nights, Sean Penn, improv, Will Ferrell, and more. Also, Brett Gelman stops by to talk about his insane new Adult Swim special. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! store and a cast creative all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what the fuckleberry thins

what the fuckaholics what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to the show i hope your uh your day's going okay if you're listening you know early i hope it's i hope it's not screwed up already let's turn it around it's my little positive thinking pitch come on you know what they say you can start your day over at any time maybe it's been a rough eight minutes maybe maybe it was a difficult walk to the kitchen to make coffee in your head let's turn it around if you're at the gym keep going if you're on the train all right just don't don't don't sit next to someone who's coughing too much i don't know folks is everybody all right got a little bit of a double header today well we get we're going to talk to uh brett gellman the very funny and inspired and uh slightly

disturbing at times brett gellman big fan of his He's going to be here for a minute to talk about his new thing. He's got a thing. He's got this thing on Adult Swim called Dinner in America. That airs July 1st at midnight. It's something, man. It's a mind blower. No doubt. Then after that, we're going to talk to John C. Reilly about stuff.

He's got his Check It Out with Dr. Steve Brule, which is currently in its fourth season. Also on Adult Swim. Reilly, you know, you don't talk much long form. This was an exciting thing, and I didn't know where it was going to go, but it went, so look forward to that shortly. Before I do want to get some things out of the way uh well not out of the way i want to thank you guys you know i want to thank everyone who

donated to the electronic frontier foundation this month after hearing me talk about it on the show i mentioned that we would be matching any donations made by wtf listeners up to five thousand dollars and you guys hit that amount in a week in a week they're still taking donations for the rest of june that's eff.org slash wtf thanks again to everyone who supported them and everyone who still plans on supporting them the eff is a defender of podcasting against patent trolls and your dollars help them do that alongside of all the other stuff they do to fight the good fight. That's EFF.org slash WTF. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour.

I got tour dates coming up. I'd like you to come. Spokane. I'm doing, you know, full on five shows, man. Seven, eight, and nine. Spokane Comedy club right yeah wise guys salt lake city 14 15 16 yeah real deal five shows comedy attic bloomington indiana july 28 29 30 five shows man doing the real work stand up live pho Phoenix, August 18, 19, 20.

All right? Yeah. I'll be in Albuquerque for one night in September on the 3rd, doing a benefit at the Albuquerque Journal Theater. Comedy Club in Rochester, New York, September 9th and 10th. I guess that's a four-show run. That's all that's up now. There will be more coming. I'm at the Ice House here in Pasadena on July 3rd,

but I believe that is sold out. Chris Garcia is going to join me for that one. Got one more show at the Ice House here in Pasadena on July 3rd, but I believe that is sold out. Chris Garcia is going to join me for that one. Got one more show at the Trippany tomorrow night. Those things, I've covered a lot of ground. Not quite all coming together, but I'm doing it. Let me get you up to speed on a couple things, folks. You know, the UK pulled out of the EU. And, yeah, you know, I don't know the nuances of a lot of this,

but my first feeling being an American and watching that from afar in relation to what's going on here with this election, my first feeling when I read the news, I didn't watch it. I read it on the computer sometimes when that happened my gut feeling was i think the same feeling that michael corleone had when he was visiting cuba and he was in that car and it stopped and he watched a police uh altercation with some cuban revolutionaries and one of the guys blew himself up with a grenade i believe took out a couple of cops that's how as an american facing the election we're facing that was what came to mind when i heard about the vote in the uk in relation to

the trump candidacy was not unlike what michael corleone told hyman roth played by the late lee strasburg about what he saw and hyman roth said what does that mean to you i'm paraphrasing he goes means they could win means they could win do you hear me america behave properly do what's right not right wing do what's the best in this situation for America. But heed the warning. Heed the warning. You remember what happened in Cuba back in the day. Also, I'd like to give a little update on the AT&T versus Marin situation.

Look, it was never a fight. It was just passionate and uh slightly aggravated demand that uh they get their noise out of my shit and i gotta be honest with you look i know some of you are like well you get you got a platform i can't get that done yes i do i worked a long time for this to work out and i and i and i'm happy that i don't have a boss and that I'm not owned by Verizon. I'm not working under the auspices of anything. I have no corporation on top of me dictating what I can and can't do. I choose my own sponsors. I can say whatever I want and I will, you know, obviously, you know, there could be

repercussions depending on what I say. And believe me, I was scared. you know there could be repercussions depending on what i say and believe me i was scared i was scared when i started talking about renting my new office and picking up all these frequencies on my stereo equipment in that office being concerned about my health but more concerned about my ability to listen to records because i'm uh i guess these are very very much luxury problems but i wanted to have the space clean of the hum and the buzz and the... And it's been going on for months. You know, there's been people that have come.

There's been people that have assessed. There's been people that, you know, from AT&T that have monitored and, you know, troubleshot. And I thought we figured out what it was, and then it just went dead for a while. Silence. Silence.

Not the sound. But my cries for justice and help. And then I guess, I don't know. They must have heard this. Or someone within the company. But heard something. They sent these two dudes over. Young guys.

Hipster dudes. That seemed like like-minded folks that were kind of, they were subcontractors. They were excited by the problem. This was something I was very thrilled about in a way that they do this type of work. I mean, the challenge was, how do we get up on the roof and figure out a way to stop these waves from getting into this office right under the equipment? And they told me, apparently I miss misspoke you know because i mentioned the heritage box and and apparently they were like uh what are you telling them what it is for that it's that what is a heritage box it's a heritage frequency so i want to make that clear that was uh causing

the trouble a heritage frequency 700 something but anyways these guys saw this. They were excited about the job because it was problem solving. And I guess they got up there and they laid down some copper mesh all around the shit, soldered it down. And folks, the noise is gone. The waves have been stopped. My mind is protected by a fine copper screen above me. Yes, that is my spirituality right now. I'm protected by the copper mesh. And believe me, the liability of talking about this stuff, look, I didn't know if I was going to be Michael Clayton by middle management at AT&T.

Michael Clayton by middle management at AT&T. Obviously, you know, that's a dark and horrible scenario. But I don't know what my life is worth when you become an annoyance to one of the world's biggest corporations. Yeah, well, we'll fix that buzz. Podcaster Mark Maron seems to have disappeared today. Friends and family have no idea of his whereabouts. There's been no communication and no podcasts. We do know he was having a problem in his office with a slight buzz on his stereo equipment from AT&T. That's the last we heard of him.

Obviously, I'm kidding. But I want to thank AT&T for due diligence and fixing the problem. Okay? So, Brett Gellman. Brett Gellman has created something that is very provocative. It's very violent. It's very funny.

It's very dark. It's very pointed. Deals with the topic of racism. And it's like nothing you've seen before. I will tell you that right now. And it is premiering on July 1st at midnight, Brett Gelman's Dinner in America on Adult Swim. And I talked to Mr. Gelman about this project.

This is two white liberal Jewish guys talking about racism. Prepare yourself because that doesn't always go. cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun. A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Farewell.

So, Brett. Yeah. What are you doing? What are you trying to do? What am I trying to do, man? I'm making art. I'm making art. You know, I watched it.

I watched what you put me through. Yeah. And I'm flattered that you watched it. I watched what you put me through. Yeah. I'm flattered that you watched it. I watched it with my girlfriend who's very sensitive to blood. Yes. Violence. Yes.

And she got through it because we knew it wasn't necessarily real. Right. So this is very, I would call it violent satire yeah i would uh it's hard for me to label sometimes but it's hard for me to label it as well you you type of fellas do you and the tim and eric's of the world and the eric andres i don't know what you're doing to us you're fucking with our heads brett well i uh you know i guess it's like theater of the absurd you know in a way i don't. No, I think so. And, I mean, I'm really influenced by a lot of hardcore playwright guys as well as filmmakers, you know. I mean, you know, I love my Beckett and my Sam Shepard and my Harold Pinter. How about some Ionesco?

Ionesco, of course, of course. Sure, sure. I love, I mean, Albie. Yeah, yeah. He definitely creeped into that realm. There's a type of satire and a type of theater and type of movie where the violence, it goes beyond gratuitous into hilarious. Yeah, like Lynch. Lynch is a huge influence of mine

and is he yeah and like i love people i mean not that these guys necessarily go hilarious but uh monty python sometimes oh yeah of course yeah and then you know uh and mel brooks you know i mean mel brooks is sure is uh very fun theater of the absurd you know a lot of the time and uh and you know i mean people like michael haneke and like lars von trier you know which are not which i i will argue that there are points in their films that are funny of course but now but you take on you're like you're basically this one is about um liberal guilt driven behavior well i'm i'm married to a black woman yeah i have always uh so she's your check you know i've been interested to check it through with her like this is what we're i definitely showed her the script yeah i was like how how does this all

pan out you know i mean i'm writing for uh could you uh could you okay this on behalf of blacks everywhere i mean i definitely you know i i won't say who but i sent the special we were looking for a place to air the premiere you know and i sent it to this place this certain place that is uh that is run by uh by black people and uh and they they said no we will not screen this here and i definitely think that they might think that i'm a racist uh and i i how why does the place have to be a mystery i'm just stretching my imagination where you had to seek out oh it's a museum you know i thought i don't want to be a uh i mean there it's there, it's an incredible museum. It's called, uh, no, no, no,

it's, uh, it's the underground museum, which is, uh, this place like by West Adams and stuff like that, that, uh,

right, right. Okay. And, uh, yeah, I really, they,

you know, they, they're the whole concept of their museum is that, you know, people of color don't really get shown. Their work doesn't really get shown in museums, you know, for the most part, it's mostly a get shown in museums you know for the most

part it's mostly a white male so you showed them the the i was like i'd like to screen this here yeah i showed them the cut and they were like we don't uh think that satire should enter race and then i wrote them back and i said you know i hope you don't think that i think that this is that this issue is funny uh and i think they not see bamboozled um they i'm sure they did but that's made by a black filmmaker right it's not a white it's not two white guys did you tell me you're married to a black woman i did not i did not no hey let's wait let's think this through fellas yeah i think that that would be uh that'd be worse if I said that, Mark. Why is that, Brett?

Oh, because it's like, you know, it's definitely what the special is about and what the whole problem is about, really, amongst us white liberals, right? What is the problem? The problem is, you know, I don't believe in white guilt. I believe in white responsibility. And I believe that white people in this country, and we're Jews, so we're more like gray. I like the way you say it. We're Jews. No, white people in this country, I mean, we're conditioned into a racist system.

You look at our business. You go into most writers' rooms. You go into most writers rooms. You go on to most sets. Yeah. And and and it is white. Right. You go into most alternative comedy clubs. It is white.

You go to most independent film festivals. It is predominantly white. And I think that that is because though we, you know, in our minds are saying, I'm not a racist. We don't think in a racist way. We don't think that we are superior to people of color. I do think that subconsciously we are, we're not really thinking of them as much as as as we think that we are. Well, in an empathetic way, you know, we claim to understand intellectually the issue. Exactly. And we say, like, holy shit, that's horrible.

But when when you talk to a black person about their experience on a fucking day to day basis. their experience on a fucking day-to-day basis yeah where you really to to truly be empathetic with that awareness or that consciousness yeah of the other all the time it's you know it's daunting and it's horrendous yeah i you know it uh i see what my wife goes through on day-to-day thing it brought it way more to home i mean i was always i always uh i'm way i mean that's that's not racial that's just uh personality based uh no i mean and then you know a lot of things surfaced yeah uh over the last couple years we've seen a lot of people getting killed by the cops they've always been killed by the cops uh and and there's always been police abuse in these neighborhoods. The oppression that people have to go through in these neighborhoods is, you know, there is a systemic thing, you know.

Absolutely. And that was just coming to light more and more. And many issues to me have been really in my face lately. More than they, I don't know if it's, I'm getting older and more sensitive to it or, or what. And, and,

you know, just seeing just my wife walking into a beauty store and the person going, these are organic products just like that, you know, a systemic problem. It doesn't just happen in these bangs. It happens in whispers that you know a systemic problem it doesn't just happen in these bangs it happens in whispers you know it happens in these little things that and so we're all contributing to that and i'll just use myself as an example i i had the idea for this special i you know we cast joe morton sharika epps mac wilds loretta divine lance reddick

these are all you know great really you just unbelievable actors yeah and i was like you know i i reached out i i talked to to to absolutely and i was just like we have to make sure absolutely is tim and eric's production okay yeah produce this and i was like we have to get crew members of color here i can't have like the this subject matter being done and then these actors on set and they're looking out and it's all white faces yeah that is not okay and then i thought holy shit i'm a fucking racist yeah why did it take me having black actors and and writing about uh like this issue yeah for me to realize that i should have an inclusive set an inclusive crew and be going out of my way to right to help people you know i mean and that's the thing and you hear it i think even the idea of of see this is where it gets tricky yeah is that like what help people

do you know like there we should be at a point where people are people and inclusiveness is understood so like you know there's still a frame of like i'm a racist because i'm not helping black people whereas like you know ultimately non-racism would be people are people and you don't even think about it right so when you start putting together this thing which is which is provocative and uh assaulting in a way sure sure and you know profoundly disturbing and uh it is it is art in the sense that you can't stop watching it it is profoundly uncomfortable and even at the end where there is some resolution um it is uh it's not it's not it's not that it's not a strong joke but it's a disturbing irony and uh and you don't really know what to do with that you know you sort of finish watching it

and you're like uh holy shit, now where do I send money? What are you supposed to do? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what are you supposed to do. Yeah, I mean, well, the thing is, and this is what I think art is. I think art is a question mark, and that you live in the question, and you present the question. That is life. As soon as you give an answer and

you're standing by that answer and the answer is unmovable then you're you're really fucked you know and uh and so i i the the special doesn't really present any answers it's only presenting a reality which is very complicated it's a complicated special because you know you don't know what's going to happen your character is demonic and uh and he's a coward he's a coward well he's like satan i mean it seems like he plays satan over and over again but ultimately you you you know in what becomes very clear you know from the beginning you know despite from the beginning, you know, despite whatever kind of coward you are, you're responsible. Yeah. I mean, it's a guy who is in thus trying to prove that he's not a racist proves that he

is a racist. And it's a guy who really wants to get like patted on the back for. Right. For this amazing charitable. Yeah. You know, very conscious thing that he's doing. Yeah. Which in a way is what I'm doing. Yeah. You know, and. Yeah. You's doing. Which, in a way, is what I'm doing.

Yeah. You know, and... Yeah, you're doing it by doing this thing. Exactly. So, there's a lot of layers to it. Well, I think that, like, the voice that you gave to some of the black actors and the issues was very engaging and real. Oh, thank you.

That was the thing that i set out to do was because like you know you may be responsible uh for doing exactly what you're satirizing in real life but but the actual voice like morton's you know when he when he loses his shit yeah like you know it's like that was uh that was solid that was thank you yeah like real unheard stuff to be that clear about that type of anger. Well, Jason and I really wanted to, well, we wanted to deal with two things there. I mean, we wanted to, Morton's monologue, Loretta Devine's monologue, Octavio Gomez's monologue, who plays the waiter. Those aren't comedic at all. that's not trying to make you laugh from discomfort that is actually dropping tragedy in the midst of uh of this and putting it up

against a comedic buffoon archetype you know it's so weird because for me you know when i see this stuff and like when i ask myself about racism or where who i am and what i'm like i don't i i'm always approaching like you know i'm self-involved you know and a lot of times i'm dismissive because of that uh you know i'm a little bit anxious but i always i'm always i i feel like i'm respectful and i don't really you know acknowledge i don't see any difference but i do acknowledge ethnic differences but not in a negative way right but in almost a sort of like a respectful way like because i i have found that like in my upbringing you know outside just being a jew and whatever that means i i envy community i envy definition of personality i envy you know this sort of like

you know ability to sort of know who you are and where you stand. And I respect it. And a lot of times, like, there are moments that I have where it's sort of like when I watch like a black comedy show, I'm like, this is exactly what it is. And it's great. And it's like it's understood immediately by a lot of people in this community. it's understood immediately by, by a lot of people in this community. You know, there's a whole rhythm and there's a whole process and there's a whole,

you know, context to how this, this, this community engages with this. And I don't, I don't see it. I see. Yeah.

We're so self-conscious, you know, white people, which is sort of what you're executing here, that there's this self-consciousness that, that we think is um sort of respectful you know like you know like i don't want to yeah i don't want to yeah the self-consciousness is being placed in the wrong place a little bit a little bit because it's more about us yeah because

it should just be about we should be self-conscious about not how we think and what we say but we should be self-conscious about our actions right i'm really talking about employment here i'm talking about uh legislation for protection right and us doing going out of our way to try and help with that with the black community with the latino community the lgbtq right sure you know the female community as opposed to just saying this is awful if trump wins i'm leaving the country exactly exactly yeah or like you know how many people how many like white guys have you talked to you know i mean it's less so now but back in the day when we were like oh my god trump's hilarious it's like well maybe you should talk to a mexican or a middle eastern person because it's it's actually dangerous for them because most of the killings that happen in this country are done by white guys.

So, you know, you have uneducated white guys, like, hearing these things from him. It might justify them to go and fucking kill someone. Yeah. So, that's what I'm talking about here. yeah so uh that's what so that's what i'm talking about here i'm not talking about erasing culture and all of us you know just being one thing when you approach black actors with the with something like this but how did how did they respond to it um you know they they got it uh they got what i was which i i mean some of them asked why did you write this yeah and i was like because this you know i this issue means a lot to me it's one of the issues that mean a lot to me yeah uh and it upsets me and um was there any

collaboration around like you know i don't think you got this right no no i we took a long time to write it and and really scrutinized over it. And we were just like, you know, some of this is not funny. We don't think it's funny. And we actually don't think. It really is like a bit of a prank. It's a tragedy masquerading as a comedy. And so they really got. I mean, Joe was, you know, you know said yeah this is like uh when the

richard pryor special when he brought out a gun and was saying he's gonna kill all the white people in the audience right and i was like whoa that's uh exactly right yeah well yeah they're that aggressive violent bloody bloods blood and gut satire. I mean, there's a tradition to it. You know, that kind of menace has been engaged in brutal satire before, and it's good to see, actually. Oh, thanks. I would like to read some black criticism of it. And by criticism, I mean intellectual assessment of it i mean i am by criticism i mean you know intellectual

assessment of it not that sucks you know i'd like to hear a critical analysis i would like to i would like to see you know i've shown i've i've shown uh i've shown uh friends of mine um the special and you know they've they've all liked it but they know me and they know what my intentions are so it's like you know as you know you're not putting your intention right about i mean you know when i when i called lance reddick i don't think it can be misunderstood you know i don't think it can be misunderstood as exploitational or or or racist yeah I don't I don't think it can be misunderstood if if somebody goes I

think I was offended that's racist I can't really argue with that because I'm not experiencing what they experience every day and I think I think you should

do some follow-up I think I would like to like if you and Jason get any of that type of feedback, you should have a discussion. I will engage with the discussion. I would love to engage. What I hope, though, is that no one of color is offended or feels and sees that I'm saying that I'm really talking about the, you know, the white liberal problem here. We'll see.

We'll see. Yeah. I mean, uh, and that's the thing too. It's like, it's not just with this special, it's not just with this premier screening.

I really do want to make the experience of my work and the, and the collaboration of my work whatever i do is as inclusive as possible and so that's really that's really uh opened the door to that consciousness in my mind okay well that's uh well that's good i'm glad you're evolving and it took a lot of blood and guts and weirdness to do that well thank you thank you so much you know you got to evolve right i i think uh consciousness is important and and really i think a big step is self-forgiveness just moving on like if you say something racist and you don't mean to and somebody goes you're racist for or that was racist yeah take the hit and think

about it like yeah you know what i fucked up i mean no i believe that no i believe that's true i'm conditioned to i fuck up every day i probably fucked up i'm sure you could point out like fucked up things i said in this i i don't know well tolerance and sensitivity there's a learning curve to it because like you said not unlike the system shit is ingrained yeah and and we you know we have to be afforded the uh the the sort of room to evolve yeah it's not about guilt yeah you don't want to draw a line waste of time guilt or blame but if somebody says look yeah you know what i you know i did i didn't think about it that way i appreciate it it's about empathy and you know i will make that mistake again and uh i'll right

you step on somebody's foot they go you stepped on my foot you don't go no i didn't fuck you you go i'm sorry i'll try not to step on your foot next time you know what i mean it's like depending what kind of person you go you say like yeah well i got these big dumb feet and you know it happens a lot and there's really nothing I can do about it. Right. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. My bad, but I'm kind of- Just going to keep stepping on feet. Yeah, because it's a system.

Yeah, I mean, guilt's a waste of time. It's a complete waste of time. Not unless you enjoy it. Unless it's your home base. Right. Yeah, I know. That's a deeper problem. Yeah, that's a very jewish

problem all right keep trying to do the right thing brett i'll try okay you too mark i'm trying Brett Gelman, the lovely and talented and a true artist Mr. Gelman is. And he has done something with Jason Wolliner that is pretty intense, pretty crazy. You can watch it on July 1st at midnight, Brett Gelman's Dinner in America. Also, speaking of television, as I've alerted you before, those of you who are in the Academy of Television and are voters for Emmys, I have a show on IFC that either you know about or you don't. I also have a special on Epix that you can also see on Hulu and you can see on Amazon Prime called More Later. And I am telling you because today is the last day you can vote so if i'm reminding you to vote for emmys uh go do it obviously vote for whatever you're going to

vote for but today is the last day but i'd i'd like you to vote for my show and i'd like you to vote for my special so i'm doing my due diligence here to raise awareness because my network did not um so there's that okay are we good john c reilly i was very excited to have mr reilly here i'm a very big fan of john c reilly i think he's one of the great actors i always enjoy seeing him i have for what feels like most of my life so when i finally got him in here i was thrilled as you'll find listening he doesn't always like to talk about himself so it's a little tricky but we found a way we we got excited about some stuff that you'll be surprised about all right uh i do want to mention that his show check it out with dr steve brule is currently in its fourth season fridays on adult swim and also

we shared this with you a few weeks ago. We talked about The Lobster, which is a great movie. It's still in theaters, so you can go see that. And now you can enjoy me talking to John C. Reilly. So, I feel like I know you. I apologize if I came at you with too much familiarity in my driveway. No, that's okay. There's just a moment where you seem familiar to me.

That's a story of my life, Mark. Is it really? Yeah. I had no idea, really. That happens a lot to you? Yeah. People feel like they know me because they've, whatever, spent time with me in the privacy of their homes. Yeah. I feel like they know me because they've, whatever, spent time with me in the privacy of their homes. Yeah, but I think it also speaks to a consistency.

Even in the varying characters, there's some core to you that seems like... Oh no, every character I do is totally different and unique. It's a genius creation each time. I think that's true. I do think that's true, but the core, the core of you is there, isn't it? I wish I knew what the core of me was. Maybe I don't wish I know it. Maybe that's your genius.

Maybe that's it. So we talked about, walking up here, that I met you at that bowling party for Ron Lynch. That would make sense. Yeah, the great Ron Lynch. Yeah. How do you know him? Just from... Well, actually, I saw him first at this thing called the Uncabaret many years ago.

It was a good... Where... Right. All kinds of... Beth Lapidus. Famous stand-up comedians started. Kathy Griffin, Taylor Negron. Dana.

Dana Gould. Mm-hmm. All the usual suspects. Yeah, yeah. So you used to go over there? Yeah. I forgot how I know Beth, but yeah, Beth and Greg started that, and I just started to go just because it was fun. And when I saw you at that bowling party, I can't remember how long ago it was,

but I feel like it was around, no, maybe it wasn't around here, because there's a bowling alley down there. But that's where you met Tim and Eric, at that thing? Yeah, Ron invited me to his birthday party at this bowling alley. It was on, I feel like it was that one that was on santa monica that's closed now that's a high school there now i think but i think i met them there and they asked me to be on tom goes to the mayor and then we kind of hit it off from there and you just said you're about to start production for new brules check it out no i'm just an executive producer on the check it

out show but we're we're about to release the next season of check it out with dr steve brule oh june 17 so it doesn't i mean you're just a producer i'm the executive producer yes one of three uh who are the other tim and eric tim and eric that's right but what what about so do you you you don't associate yourself with uh with dr brule as a character he's a separate fella he is i find it's best to let people have that man as their own yeah and if they choose to take his advice then then so be it. I enjoy him. He's disturbing and funny and knowledgeable. Yeah.

It depends on the type of knowledge you're after, but I guess so. You know the guy, right? I've met him. I have met him. I get very disciplined about the things I'm talking about, or else every interview becomes some type of retrospective, which I find boring. Do you really?

Yeah, I don't especially like talking about myself, and I definitely don't like talking about the past in terms of my own work or whatever. I like telling stories from my childhood and stuff. Well, I mean, I don't know about a retrospective but like i i'm sort of curious about because i've talked to people of i guess we're about the same age of of our generation recently like of like uh actors like rockwell and ethan hawke and sometimes people can talk about acting sometimes people can't you know and it's it's sort of interesting to me that either you have you know something you do and it's built up you know it's grown over time or you just a natural at it I mean where did you start doing it I started doing it when I was about eight years old at the park near my house

we used there was a thing called drama class where was this in chicago in the south side of chicago yeah in a park called marquette park and um and i used to go over there i've had a crazy friend that i met in school and he was like my aunt teaches drama class at the park you should come with we call it drama yeah literally had never heard the word before i guess but uh it's kind of a maybe that's with a chicago accent maybe and so he said come by and i didn't know what the hell it was and so i went and um had a great time and then we started i did lots and lots of musicals basically there yeah and all different high schools and community theater and when you're like eight and ten eight to ten twelve years old how old i started going to drama class when i was

eight and then i just never stopped doing yeah and mostly musicals well on the south side of chicago that's all they want to do is musicals there's no ibsen being done at the community theater and maybe i'm maybe it's changed but when I was a kid, it was all. Maybe a little Arthur Miller, no Arthur Miller? Nah. Brigadoon, Hello Dolly, Jesus Christ Superstar. Yeah. So you're like a Chicago kid, working class kind of deal?

Yeah. My father had an industrial linen supply company, and my mother was, for the most part, was a housewife, but then worked as a lunch lady for many years because she was just bored sitting at home so she wanted to go work at the school yeah i could never understand it i tried for a long time to get her to stop doing it she's like what what the hell am i gonna do with myself sitting here when you're all at school so she was a lunch lady at your school no at another chicago public school how many brothers and sisters you got i have five brothers and sisters oh my god that's a lot you know them all pretty well yes

i do i know them all very well big catholic family yes yeah we went yeah we were catholic i i like chicago like i chicago i i didn't know it and now i go there and i'm it like i was so new york oriented but once you really experience chicago it's just it's a real it's its own deal I didn't know it and now I go there and I'm like I was so New York oriented but once you really experience Chicago it's a real it's it's own deal

it's like it's a whole different Don't act so surprised like every condescending New Yorker that Chicago is it's own deal Well I grew up

in New Mexico Oh okay But like Chicago's actually really interesting Wow you know you got a real city here

Well it's just like you have to spend time there though like i mean i'm just no it's okay i can take it i'm acting like a typical chicagoan which is i have all defensive with a chip on their shoulder and i go there competitive with new york yeah but i go there more than new york now i mean i like going to chicago to spend time there i went to a great town do you know joe swanberg yeah i do yeah he's great guy i was there i did a thing with him and like he's a sweet guy and he showed me around took me some places i just like you have to you have to really have to have somebody take you around so you can really take it in yeah that's true but when i go back now if i were to take you like okay mark i'm

gonna take you to my chicago yeah i feel like I'm traveling like a ghost. It's like a Christmas carol. Yeah, because you realize that expression, you can't go home. You really can't go home. It's not there anymore. Yeah. Those people that define the place are not there anymore. And so there's sort of this, I don't know, I have this skeletal feeling when I go there.

It's still a fantastic city, but it's not the city that I grew up in, you know? Is it like because of gentrification or just the shifting of the name? Just time, because of the sands of time. Oh, like different stores and shit? Yeah, things change. And, you know, like when I was growing up, Mayor Daley, the first Mayor Daley was mayor for 30 years or something. And everything, every public work in the city was painted kelly green yeah either like a mint green or kelly green and anything that was metal was painted

kelly green yeah and my dad used to say it was because you know daly was irish and my dad was part of that whole kind of irish democratic machine oh yeah situation on the south side there all his friends were all you know these sort of ex-football player crony guys. Yeah. Jan Jan, get over here. Yeah. So I grew up very well protected by- By those guys.

Racists, basically. Yeah. You were in Hoffa, weren't you? Yeah. Shot in Chicago. Right, exactly. That was like a Chicago story. Not only shot in Chicago.

I was more of a Detroit. Oh, yeah? Hoffa was a Michigan guy. Michigan guy. I don't know why I made the assumption. Just a union in Chicago. Yeah, a lot of stuff went down. A lot of labor strikes and stuff happened in Chicago.

Did that feel like the guys your dad hang around with? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is he still around? No, both my parents are dead. I'm sorry. Did your siblings stay in Chicago?

Kind of, although we all kind of drifted away from that original neighborhood where I grew up. I had 35 first cousins within a 10-block area of where I live. So I would go out i remember i would leave i wore the same thing every day for like i don't know most of my life unless i had to wear something nice for school or whatever yeah yeah it's converse all-star high tops jc penny plain pocket jeans and a white t-shirt yeah and that's what i wore every until the shoes wore out until the pants were like just get the same thing your choice or your mom's choice that was my choice yeah it's consistent it's like einstein and then uh and i'd leave the house about eight eight o'clock in the morning go like wake up my cousin and we just bum around all day and stop at different

relatives houses throughout the day if you got hungry or thirsty or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In some ways, it was like a really idyllic kind of life. When did your interest in, like, did you do, because I know Second City was there. Did you go to theater while you were doing it? Was there an active interest that started where you were like, I think I want to do this? Not until very late oh yeah again because i didn't i had no idea what it was really to be an actor as a job yeah like if i

went to the movies i never thought of the actors and movies as actors i just thought like that's gene hackman that's what he's like he's like popeye doyle i know they changed his name for the movie but that's what he's like that's what I did to you earlier yeah I do the same thing to actors I see people coming out of an elevator while I'm going in for a meeting right hey man how's it going oh fuck it's just I don't know that person never met him even now you do that yeah yeah totally you just get familiar with people and yeah but uh so I did a lot of plays when I was a kid. Yeah.

And I went to drama school at this place called the Goodman School of Drama at DePaul University. Yeah. Which is now called the Theater School at DePaul University. They changed the name. Was that like a two-year or four-year thing? Four years. Yeah. Bachelor of Fine Arts.

Mm-hmm. And it was kind of a conservatory program where similar to like juilliard or one of those places where you just eat sleep and breathe theater but did you do like like swordsmanship and stuff and dance all of it all that stuff movement to music makeup i had a whole semester's makeup class i had to take yeah do you do any clown work well it's interesting you mentioned clowns because i used to be a clown you did even before i went to acting school i was through my church group i was a clown and um and i thought that might be what i went to do after i finished even after i went through acting school i thought I was really toying with the idea of going down to Florida there.

Barnum and Bailey? Yeah. Clown College? Clown College there. And I almost did it. And then at the last second, someone said, you know what they get in return, right? And I was like, no.

Like, well, you have to ride. You have to be part of the circus for like three years for basically no pay you just they give you food and you get the shittiest compartment in the train and you have to travel for three years with the circus and i was like yeah i don't think i'm gonna go for that that's what paying your dues as a clown is but i now collect and i think i'm might be saying this publicly for the first time. Yeah. I collect clown paintings. Oh, did you see? I had one.

I know. I saw. I noticed. How many you got? I have about 75, 80, something like that. Oh, really? Like amateur clown paintings? Yeah, all amateur, although I have some that are more well done than others.

Uh-huh. And you know what I'm going to ask you next? What kind of clown was i no uh do you have a john wayne gacy clown painting no good see i'm not into that i was john wayne gacy was killing kids my age when he was killing kids yeah so i don't have much affection or kind of like i don't have that no morbid curiosity or horrible i know someone a friend of mine or someone i haven't seen in a long time but he was corresponding with him and he's all into it he ended up writing a

book about serial killers so i understood his interest but yeah i don't know to me the whole thing why would you want that in the house with clowns yeah is yeah exactly it's like you know it's like cursed yeah thing that happened with clowns kind of in my lifetime is that some jerk decided clowns were scary. I never understood that. And turned it into this horror movie trope. Yeah. And in fact, clowns are like priests. You know, the people who are really committed to clowning who are good at it.

Yeah. It's like a monastic kind of life where you really you're kind of it's like a vocation you're giving yourself over to this higher calling where you're bringing joy to people and i don't know it's a it's a special kind of calling it's a very specific work too really i mean in a way like the the training for it you know to to i guess it could come natural but it seems like the movement and the broad sort of nature of opening your heart in that way and choosing your face, that always fascinated me. Well, if we're going to talk about clowns, I know a lot about it. Okay.

The whole thing about choosing your face is like it kind of comes to you through the process of training as a clown. There's all these rules and stuff about, I won't get into the minutiae of it, but there are specific rules about being a clown if you're going to really be a formal clown. But when you discover your makeup, it's almost like this sort of inner journey that you make and you realize who you are and you design this makeup. And then that's like sacred. No one can do your makeup makeup no one can take your look and what happens if someone does it's like it's a clown it's a shonda and you have to live with that and there's some interesting famous vert uh cases instances yeah so you get so if you become

like a well-known clown, you make it into the clown museum or the Clown Hall of Fame. I think it's in St. Louis. They put your makeup, your picture of your makeup on an egg, on a hollow egg, and then it's housed in the museum, and then that's forever. No one can do your makeup. Wow.

So one of my favorite clowns is Emmett Kelly. Sure. And Emmett Kelly is the famous tramp clown. He's one of the only people in the whole history of clowning that invented a kind of clown. The tramp. Yeah, the tramp. And the time he did it, he was actually a trapeze artist who got injured. Yeah.

And he was kind of a sometime illustrator. He'd do like drawing and stuff for money. He's like the famous clown, one of the big ones. Yeah. Emmett Kelly. Yeah. The one who looks all sad. Yeah, yeah.

He was silent. He never spoke. Yeah. And he was always depressed. His character was called Weary Willie. And so he was a trapeze artist in the circus and he got injured and he couldn't continue on the trapeze. And they were like, well, kid, see you later.

And he's like, please, please don't send me home. Please, I'll do anything. I'm like, well, I think we need a clown. You want to be a clown? I'm like, do you have a character? Oh, of course I do. And he didn't have a character. He had just been drawing this bum kind of character called Weary Willie.

And he's like, I'll just be Willie. And so he started to do it. And at the time, it was like the Great Depression was going on. And when people saw this clown, it was an instant hit. Because it made people feel like, well, I'm really struggling, but that guy's much worse off than me. Or they could relate even. That's how bad things were. Someone like, he had like a clothes pin for a tie bar and like all these great little details of his costume.

Anyway, he became world famous clown and like the biggest star of the circus. And then he sort of retired. And then his son, Emmett Kelly Jr., decided to continue doing the character. Uh-oh. But it's not legal in clown law. It was a shonda. Oh even his kid yes and they stopped speaking as a result of it because of the face yes you can't take that guy's look so it was this big controversy anyway i hope they made peace in heaven i think they're both i know i know the dad

is dead i think the the dad is dead. I think the younger son is dead now too. Have you ever done like, because am I remembering right, did you do like sort of a clownish character in like Chicago? Wasn't there sort of a broad kind of? I made it that. You did? Yeah, because I wanted to, this whole thing of like putting on the makeup beforehand,

I was like, I want it to be kind of like this tramp clown like i i kind of edged it that way yeah yeah and then this woman was doing makeup for the movie people always think they can do clown makeup and then they put it on you and you look like terrifying so this woman started putting on these big black eyebrows on my and i already have like a crow magnet brow so like if you do anything to my eyebrows it makes me look really scary so i saw what she was doing and i was like you know hold off hold off let's just let me go talk to the director for a second i think maybe i'm going to do this on camera and part of the reason it's it's the way it is in the movie is because i didn't want the makeup artist to do it yeah yeah so i. So I just did it, and Rob's like, you know, the director's brilliant, brilliant.

I'll just watch you put the makeup on, and then it became part of the number. Anyway, so yeah, I did do a clown character in that movie. And I still have the shoes that I wore, the oversized clown shoes that I wore. Really? Yeah. Did you feel the effect? Like, it must be sort of powerful. I mean, somebody who has as much respect for clowning and clowns as you do, to do that, to put makeup on, to look at yourself doing that.

Yeah. I mean, it must be kind of deep to the transformation. Yeah. It's intense because you're wearing a mask, but everyone can still see your face. And that movie also was like going right back to my childhood. It just took me right back to how it felt to be on stage doing a musical. Yeah.

So that was really the first musical you'd done since you were a kid. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. Yeah. There's not that many opportunities to do musicals. No, there should be more. It's like one of the few things Americans have to call our own. Well, how come you haven't done any Broadway musicals. No, there should be more. It's like one of the few things Americans have to call our own. Well, how come you haven't done

any Broadway musicals? Haven't. I've been busy. You guys shoot movies. It takes up a lot of time. Yeah, no, there was a period in my life when I was really open to doing theater in New York.

Yeah. And then, you know, I have children and it became harder to move them. Right, right. I just figured, you know what? I want to pull a dennehy and just hit it hard once my kids are in college you're gonna wait it out are they how

old are they now they're private citizens until they're old enough okay to tell you how old they are all right so so you got a few years before you're gonna hit it hard then yes yeah a few years but i i stayed involved in theater here and but didn't you do true west place yeah that was a long time has been a long time ago where you played both roles right yeah you switched them up and i switched roles every three performances oh man i miss that guy yeah you and me both brother so did i is this a true thing that you're doing uh you're playing all over Hardy? Is that really happening?

I intend to, yeah. So it's not at any stage where you're actually acting yet? No, we're going to film. It's a movie we're going to do, and probably not until the fall. Are you going to put on a little weight? What are you going to do? I don't know. You'll have to see. I don't let people what are you going to do i don't know you'll

have to see oh but that's why i don't let people behind the curtain mark you know ever but ever but that's part of my clowning training you never let anyone see you like talk as yourself when you're dressed as a clown or but that's sort of a clown role too that's gonna be kind of fun yeah two of the greatest clowns ever in fact it's funny you should mention them, Mark, because look at my cufflinks. Stan. Is it Stan and Ollie? Who's playing Stan? Steve Coogan.

Oh, really? Yeah. That'll be fun. Jesus, that'll be a blast. I wouldn't even be talking about this other than the fact that the producers have already announced it publicly. So we're cool? Yeah, we're cool.

We're cool. announced it publicly. So we're cool? Yeah, we're cool. We're cool. Just between you and I and the 20 million people that listen to this podcast, I have to admit I don't even understand the whole podcast thing. I mean, good on you.

I'm happy for you. But I honestly don't know where people get the time to listen to a podcast. Well, I understand that. I think most people do it when they exercise, when they drive. Okay, I don't exercise. Right, right. When they drive, when they commute. I listen to either K-Day or news radio when I'm driving. Right, right.

Yeah, I do NPR generally. But I think people who have integrated into their life, it's like you used to listen to radio. So they'll do it during their commute, during the exercise, on trips, on on planes it's a little better than radio because you can download it like a song i i like uh the moth radio hour i like all those story kind of yeah those are good yeah that's like a podcast they do that as a podcast you know speaking of laurel and hardy yeah i'll tell you about laurel and hardy this is the way it worked with Laurel and Hardy. Stan Laurel did almost all of the work.

He did all the writing. He was like a workaholic. He never stopped writing, never stopped coming up with bits. He was very organized. He was always the one that's sitting at a typewriter. And, you know, Oliver Hardy might be sitting there like giving opinions about stuff, but Stan was the one writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, writing. like giving opinions about stuff but stan was the one writing writing writing writing writing writing writing and then um and stan's job was also on the set he would almost like direct stuff

they had cameramen and directors but it was all done very much in collaboration with stan yeah oliver loved to eat love to to drink, loved to gamble. He was like an ace golfer. He was like the best golfer in Hollywood. Yeah. So all these guys like W.C. Fields and John Wayne, all these famous people would always want to partner with Oliver Hardy because he would kick anyone's ass.

He was a savant at golf. Wow. So he would go down to Tijuana. He was just love traveling and spending money and just living large and enjoying life yeah and but he had this very important thing in their in their duo if stan said like what about this what if i punch you in the nose like uh yeah i don't know what else oh what if i just turned your ear and then I kicked you in the ass? That'll go big. That'll go big.

And it sounds like, well, Stan's doing all the work. Oliver's just saying, yeah, that's a good idea. But that is the secret to their success. One guy who Stan trusted and they only trusted each other. Everyone else almost didn't even exist in their lives. Right. But I just find that whole idea of duos in general even like singing duos like i'm really into close harmony singers yeah which is like you know the everly brothers

are classic close harmony act yeah the leuven brothers before them the stanley brothers before them yeah and almost those just those three duos and i can name me four more but those three duos the stanleys yeah louvins and the everleys yeah one of them touched by god right uh an angel on earth like seeing like the larger picture like this beautiful angelic spirit yeah the other one torn apart by the devil and drink and darkness and and just fighting and violence and breaking things and but when they get together on stage this incredibly beautiful thing happens and that's all three of those i mean how crazy is that they're all separated by many years and different musical styles what are the odds you know it must be that's what brings them together, that fight, that struggle, and then the beauty that happens in the moments of the song.

Must be that special chemistry that happens. And it almost doesn't matter what their roles are as long as it comes together in that way when it needs to come together. So when did you start acting professionally? After I left college, when I finished. Did you go to New York? You come here. I stayed in Chicago and started working with the Steppenwolf Theater Company, which has its 40th anniversary this weekend.

Really? You began there? Uh-huh. Who was in the crew then? Well, I first, I did, I understudied things there. And I did like a Shakespeare program for high schoolers just because I knew I just got to get in that building. I got to start working there and they'll see. Steppenwolf was the place.

Yeah. Yeah. By, I mean, this is like Malkovich had just broken out of there and. Joan Allen. Joan Allen. Like all, all of them. Sinise. Yeah.

Um, so I started working there. I was lucky enough those guys took me under their wing and gave me jobs. Then I got my first movie. And then when I came back from my first movie, they cast me in a main stage production of The Grapes of Wrath with Terry Kinney and Gary Sinise. So I owe a lot to Steppenwolf. He's good.

I haven't seen him lately in things. Terry Kin good. I haven't seen him lately in things. Terry Kenny. I haven't seen him in anything lately either, but I'm sure he's doing stuff. You know what he was really great in? I saw him in Barry Child. I saw Gary Sinise's Barry Child on Broadway. That was great. Yeah.

I saw that in Chicago. It's good, right? Mm-hmm. But he had this great weird part in the firm the tom cruise movie oh yeah remember yeah he's just sitting outside with the sprinkler hitting him yeah yeah yeah oh shit like there's weird moments i remember about movies but certain actors like i was when you were coming over i kept thinking there's one fucking line like because like we're almost we're basically the same age so like you know i saw your shit as it came out because you're a contemporary of mine in my head.

That one line in fucking Casualties of War where you go like, you know what would be really good right now? Beer. I kind of want a beer. Fucking that line. That's the whole movie. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah.

Yeah. I know. It was my line. Yeah. But what was it? It was just sort of that. You know what would be good right now? A beer. Yeah, yeah. I know exactly. It was my line. Yeah. Yeah. But what was just sort of that? It would be good right now. A beer.

Yeah. Just cold beer. Yeah. That guy was so dangerously dumb, that character. Oh, my God. But it's just like, that was so fun to- I thought you were going to say another one. Which one?

You know, I was thinking, we're like Genghis Khan, man. Where he starts to get these delusions of grandeur like it doesn't matter what we do we're not bound by law we're like genghis khan we're just conquerors like yeah but it all came to him after the intelligence already happened elsewhere yeah yeah he had to put it together but like that beer line it was like so disturbingly american yeah in some fucked up way well that whole movie is really interesting it's like in some it's called casualties of, that whole movie is really interesting. It's like, it's called Casualties of War, but it's really,

it should be called The Rape. Yeah. Because that's what it's really about. Yeah. The central action of the movie is this abduction and the rape and murder of this girl. And it was a true story. That's the show.

Oh, it was? Yeah. So that was the first movie? That was my first movie yes yeah only 69 to go mark whoa no i'm not gonna do it to you i'm just gonna pick randoms are you are you all dressed up for what did you do conan or something no no i just i like to overdress as opposed to underdress we had a whole press junket thing for the lobster at the four seasons hotel oh so one after the other?

Like just people on microphones? Yeah, which is so funny. Why did 8-track tapes become obsolete, but this idea of coming into a room and talking for three minutes where you don't care what my answer is, I don't care what your questions are, and no one's going to watch this. Why is this stupid thing of publicity junkets even exist? Who watches that?

Who really watches this stuff? That's what I want to know. And they think this big net idea is the way to go. So you do a million things for content providers that have 10,000 unique hits that you don't even know what the fuck it is. Well, that i can i could understand like the internet the reach of the internet but these it's the tv ones where they come in like we're just gonna i don't know it's just the questions are so mundane and like nothing's ever said nothing's interesting there's i feel like i'm just totally boring like even

people that are into my acting or interested in me would find this totally boring. Right, right. Why isn't there a more interesting way to promote movies? Like, I don't know. I think we're doing it. Ah! Podcasts. I knew it.

It's just like talking. Like, you know, because you're, you know, not everybody knows, you know, gets a sense of who you are. You know what I mean? And that's the way I like it, Mark. I'm sure it is. I mean, like, I think that, like, you know, actors have a certain, you know, i mean and that's the way i like it mark i'm sure it is i mean like i i think that like you know actors have a certain you know responsibility to protect their insides well that's not even that it's like i don't even know what's in there to tell you i don't don't

do a lot of self-analysis you don't no not at all i don't i don't like to think about that stuff i like to just keep moving forward and try not to make mistakes or repeat mistakes, but keep moving. But do you experience... The reason I like to protect my privacy is because my job is to trick you into thinking I'm someone that I'm not. So if you know who I really am, and you know what my likes and dislikes are, and you know what my opinion is politically or this or that, then if I have to play something that's contrary to that you're like oh well that's not really him it's bullshit and then your career is over really i think that's the secret to a long career as an actor is

staying mysterious and in this day and age yeah when everything is about i want it now it's not here fast enough i can get whatever I want instantly. Yeah. The thing that you can't get becomes the thing people find attractive, I think. I think that's true. Within reason. Yeah, I think that's true. But do you like, if you're not into like self-examination, do you experience, you know, some sort of catharsis with certain roles?

Like emotional lives that sort of you're kind of like, oh my god you know well that's not really self-analysis though it's more just like putting yourselves and yourself in someone else's shoes and then you realize like oh god this is feeling really familiar like oh my god this was about my relationship with my dad was like like but you just kind of you feel that though yeah though? Yeah. You feel like things touch nerves. Like, wow, why did I just start crying right away when I said those words? And you realize, like, all the stuff buried in there. And you just use it as opposed to poke around in there. Yeah.

I don't need to know it. You don't need to know it. Just enjoy the movie. But, yeah, but it's nice that you can tap into it, that you have this emotional life that remains relatively unexamined, but it'll surprise you when you start doing it. Well, that's why I'm an actor. Yeah.

It's not just convenient that I have that tool. It's the reason I'm an actor is that I have this stuff. I'm able to access things or access feelings, you know? Yeah. And when you prepare for for something and we can talk about acting in a in a broad way because like i i i kind of find it fascinating when people can talk about it if it's something you can talk about i mean what do you do to like prepare for for uh what would you consider the most challenging role you've had really

as an actor well the most challenging ones are the ones I feel like were failures. Really? So those are the ones, when you say challenging, that's the way I think back, like, oh, I tried to do that and it didn't quite work. What?

Like which one? Who wants to talk about that? Not me. But in terms of preparation, the, yeah, you want to talk about your greatest failures? Well, how about the one that you thought was a victory?

I mean, that you really... What I was going to say was about preparation was you asked me, what do you want to talk about your greatest failures? Well, how about the one that you thought was a victory? I mean, that you really... What I was going to say was about preparation. You asked me, what do you do to prepare? And the truth is, like, every single one is totally different. Every, like, I don't think from the outside, it looks like there's a way to make a movie, and there's this... And even people, sometimes crew people,

like assistant directors and stuff, think there's this way that you do it. Yeah. You say this, and then you come here, and you have to be here. You know, like, the truth is, the whole thing is a custom job every single time. Even if you work with the same director or the same actor, like, you've got to find where are we at today? You know, how are we going to convey this today in this world that it is the way it is?

So my preparation is specific to what I don't know for each job. Right. So if I have to play like a school teacher who knows about geography and I actually don't know anything about geography, I learn as much as I have to in order to feel like I am, like, authorized to play that part. Right. Like, I can do geography a bit. Like, I can be convincing.

Yeah. Or I can do a geography enough. I can do as much geography as I would have to do in that scene. Right. I would know what I'm. Right. I get it. So you look at this script. Whether it's long line fishing or or being a policeman or you know like i'm not one of these

people that and i don't fault people because i know some great actors that work this way people that completely you know submerge themselves into this world off camera and you can call them by their character's name and right they they're always in character and or they just do so much research that takes up months of their lives and they're just commit and you know i think there's been some great performances by that technique yeah sure i'm just not that way i'm i'm more lazy or something i'm more i'm more energy i conserve my energy more yeah well also like i mean like you know you seem to like you said that you have a gift for accessing emotions and if you can do

that without exhausting yourself in that way i don't know like i think like like i said each one's a custom job okay let's well let's just talk like one that everybody knows like like boogie nights you were younger but it was a big movie and you're playing a porn guy right so and he's a pretty fun guy he's you know he's a fun you know and a nice guy in a way so how did you sort of like set up you set yourself up for that well that was like that the movies with paul anderson are kind of a breed apart because paul and i at the time that we made those movies were very very close and almost like collaborating on this in this way that i didn't really collaborate with anyone before and rarely since how is that where he's almost like writing

stuff for me or letting me improvise in a way that he knows is exactly right for the character and uh we visited some porn sets yeah on that movie i didn't do any porn right because i was married at the time but yeah um but yeah i felt like i met enough porn people and absorbed enough to know like okay this is what it feels like to be in a porn set. This is the psychology of a porn star at this time. Right. It demystified it a bit. Yeah, or it just makes you feel like empathy for the person you're going to play. Right.

But, you know, a lot of times people like say it's a Civil War movie. Someone goes through basic training and lives on a battlefield for six months in order to know what it's like to be a Civil War soldier. Like, well, yes, but you're only doing this one scene where you're in a triage tent. You just need to know about that part of the Civil War, not the entire Civil War experience. But again, like I said, with a lot of actors, that's really good. God love them. Some great performances come out of that kind of acting. But I don't know.

I'm just a little more like... I'm just more instinctual in general about things. I think of it as meditating about the character all the time when I'm working. That's why I find it really hard not to to do more than one project right you know yeah i'm really a one-track mind yeah or even if you know i'm doing something i'm constantly thinking about it or kind of ruminating about it uh-huh and like so at the time you did heartache and boogie nights and uh and magnolia you guys were tight so you had a sort of a symbiotic, personal.

He understood you emotionally. He understood what your limits were, and you had that dynamic going. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then other directors, you know, like some people, you just don't know them at all, and they don't know you, and they just expect you to come in like special forces and get it done, you know? But you can do that, right?

Yeah, so with character actors that's what you often have to do yeah you know it's not to it's not that it's easy but it's a lot easier to be a leading character in a movie than it is to be a supporting character oh yeah yeah because when you're a leading character you start work you start to chip away at that character you start to make decisions get used to the crew, get used to the director. You might have a crappy first day, but you make it up the next day, and you start to build this. Then all the decisions that you've made start to create the character for you.

Then by the end of the shooting schedule, you're like, all right, well, I just have to stay honest to what I've done all this time. You come in as a cameo or a supporting actor or character actor, well, I just have to stay honest to what I've done all this time. Right. You come in as a cameo or a supporting actor, a character actor, whatever you want to call it, you have to be hitting the beach, running full speed, knowing what you're doing. You only get those, you know, you might come in for three days and then seven days, two months later or something,

and you've got to deliver. Yeah. And all eyes are on you. You don't know anybody. Yeah. You know know you're just trying to make it work and that's a high pressure gig in a way and it's much harder than slowly building something over the course right that makes sense right and it's just as much character development right as it is for a leading part except you only have this tiny window to get it done right. Right. You better be fully formed. Yeah.

Yeah. Like something like Cyrus or Good Girl or even, I guess, in like Magnolia where you really got to dig in, you sort of let that thing grow. Like Cyrus, you must have lived with that guy for a while. Cyrus was entirely improvised. Wow. There was a script, but we didn't do any of the dialogue of the screen you

like that i didn't like it on that movie uh-huh to be honest because um i think the movie is very good and i'm proud of my performance in it but the day-to-day of it was very difficult because you know if there was no script yeah there was nothing written and it was just every day you'd show up like all right we're gonna you guys go in the room just start talking to each other to me that's improv improv i'm not intimidated by that at all right like i that's my bread and butter you love that we got nothing let's go yeah you know but when you go in and there's all these words already written and you know the directors are kind of like hoping things are going to head in that direction right you know okay wait how do i get it to head in this direction and but don't say

these words yeah i don't know like i get what you mean like they they know what they want but they're not going to really tell you they're going to let you bungle through it until you nail it just kept saying for go with your instinct go with your instinct yeah my instinct is to tell the fucking story you want to tell. You're the directors. What do you want to do? And they were like, we're not saying. We're not saying.

And it drove me really crazy. And I'm sure I wasn't the most pleasant person to deal with as a result. But Jonah and I got along really well. He's a good guy. And we did really well together on that movie. And the movie ended up being great. And what I didn't, like foolishly, what I didn't understand with the way the Duplass Brothers work was the script writing is a third of the job.

The shooting of the movie is a third of the job. And then the real storytelling is the final third in the editing room where they look at what they have and they make a story. I didn't quite get that that's what was going to happen. I just kept feeling like I'd come home from a day at work there and feel like, oh my gosh, we really did it. And so we caught lightning in a bottle that day, like holy crap. And then other days I'd be like, that was a waste of 12 hours.

That was an embarrassing waste of 12 hours, you know? And then they would do, like, a day like that, they would just take and cut it and put music over it and make it this montage instead of the scene that was written, which was brilliant. It was like the movie ends up really hanging together for that reason. And then there's times where it's like the type of improv, like people say improv and they think it's just one thing,

like make-em-ups or whatever. But there's all different ways to improvise in movies. One way is like the way Will Ferrell and I work together where we improvise constantly when we're coming up with the ideas for the script or writing the dialogue for the script. On Talladega and Step Brothers. I wasn't involved in the writing of Talladega, but we improvised a ton on set yeah on stepbrothers we we we i we broke out the story together and

i told them tons and tons of stories from my life and we just made each other laugh and wrote down kind of what we were improvising in the room right and then we go to, we do the scripted version, which is already very funny. Yeah. You know, as many times until we start to get bored with it. And then Adam will be like, just go, just say something totally different. Just do whatever you want. Yeah. And then you end up coming up with these really crazy, chaotic ideas that often make the final cut of the movie.

So you have this writing that's already very inspiring to you yeah you know yeah but to come in and like have a script that you're not that excited about and then the director go like yeah you know just don't worry about those words just kind of you know improv it you're like yeah but i'm not really there's nothing feeding me on the page why don't i just why don't i just try to make this work you know instead of so i don't know this is it's the crazy life of an actor it's like the first day of school over and over and over again right right where you don't know anybody you don't know how anyone likes to work you're kind of just should should have yeah not trying to compromise your ideals right but do what people want you to do. It's tricky.

You started to ask me earlier about Second City. And I went to this kind of serious acting conservatory program at DePaul. And there was the option of doing Second City. I'm from Chicago. I knew a lot about it. But I felt like, and I'll probably piss off a lot of your listeners who are into improv comedy, but I felt like a lot, and I think this is still true,

a lot of improv comedy, like ImprovOlympic or whatever, these kind of improv companies, I think there's this slavish devotion to the laugh. And if the back of your mind, while you're improvising you're thinking we got to make this funny it's got to be funny i gotta think of something good here i gotta think something funny then you're just it it limits it to it's still interesting limits the

depth sometimes yeah it's like 10 of what you can do right but if you really say a hundred percent of the world's possibilities are on the table really cool stuff happens in improv workshops yeah moving stuff people crying yeah people getting upset people getting angry people attacking each other like all this crazy stuff can happen and so i felt like i want i want the whole experience i don't want to just be typecast as someone who's just funny or just, you know, I felt like it was like. Limiting. Yeah, it was limiting, unnecessarily limiting. And there's a lot of very talented people that work in that improv world.

Sure. That could be challenging themselves a lot more if they would let it get dark and let the audience just sit there and not be worried about whether people are being entertained all the time. Yeah. I think that's some of the beauty of like a lot of what, to get back to it in a vague way, what Tim and Eric do is that like, you know, obviously that's funny stuff, but it's profoundly disturbing and dark and deep and vulnerable and weird. And they rarely go for the laugh but the laugh finds itself if it even is that type of comedy it feels like

comedy but it's a lot deeper than laughing yeah it's disturbing it's subversive yeah yeah yeah so like when you do it when you do like a movie like like uh gangs in new york where there's like like, even Chicago, I guess, where there's costumes and it's, like, a big period piece and everything else. I mean, does the... Still being asked to improvise often. Oh, really? Yeah. With Scorsese, too? Well, yes.

Yeah? I mean, he's someone who just, like Paul Anderson, just really loves actors. Yeah, yeah. I feel like both of those guys are somewhat mystified by actors. Like, how are they doing this? It's amazing. And as an actor, you love that. You love someone who's mystified by what you do.

So it really encourages you to go for it and go, watch what I do now. watch what I do now. Yeah. So, yeah. So he was, you know, like, like any good directors.

Yeah. If a good idea presents itself or something happens accidentally, or you're inspired to say something that's not written down, then they immediately adopt it, you know? Yeah. And you got to work with Altman before he died. Yeah.

That was, that must've been wild. Yeah. That was, that was probably the first time, you know, ever since I was a little kid. To this day, it's very hard to find photographs of me where I'm not aware of the camera. Yeah. Even if I'm not looking right at the camera.

Yeah. All my childhood pictures, I'm like, if there's like a group of kids, no one's looking. I'm the one kid looking at the camera. I'm always aware of the camera. I'm always of like okay what's the what's the move here or whatever you know right um but on that one there were so many cameras flying around it was really the first time i had no idea where it was and it didn't matter bob's like just just he used to say giggle and give in yeah just giggle and give in i was like where's the camera it doesn't matter where the camera is just stay in it and it's really liberating and very scary feeling yeah yeah because you're like what if what if

you know what if i blow it for a second you know like Or I'm picking my nose or I don't realize the camera's on me. I'm just standing there dead-eyed. Yeah. But it keeps you on your toes when you're not sure. Also, when you do play comedy, when you do something like, what is it? Walking. What is it? Walk hard.

Walk hard, which is great, but you you got to play that straight too, right? You can't. You're not thinking about the laugh at all, right? Yeah. You got to play it straighter than straight. Yeah. Yeah. And the commitment to that narrative and to the referring to yourself in third person

a little bit. Yeah. It was hilarious, dude. That's the first sign of mental illness, they say, is referring to yourself in the third person. Is it? That's what somebody told me. Bruno Kirby said that.

You know, the actor Bruno Kirby passed away. God bless him. You knew him? That's the first. Yeah, we did We're No Angels together. Oh, right, right, right. Oh, my God, that's right. We're no angels.

Was that De Niro in that, too? Yeah, De Niro, Sean Penn, Demi Moore. That was The Monk. Yeah. I love that movie that was my second movie yeah what a fun fucking movie that was there's a remake too right yes yeah that was great yeah that was very funny good for you i've been around a while you have been man so you worked out all right it It worked out. That's why I don't do a lot of these kind of things.

Yeah. And I think you may have asked me to do this before. Yeah, I did. And I've resisted because I knew coming in here, I would say more than I want to say. I'm just a chatty person. I'll just start talking. And like you say, it's going well so far.

Part of the reason I feel like it's going well so far is because I have these little rules about, you know, don't talk about that. You do? Don't let people see you like that. Yeah. Because it's just good for business, you know? I guess.

Mystery is good for business. I don't get a sense. Like, I'm not at this point in our conversation, like, I'm not thinking, like, I got a handle on this guy. I know where he's coming from. Good, because it's coming. Good. Cause yeah,

you're still, you're still pretty mysterious to me. I, I, I know you're just a guy with a life, but you, you know, I,

I like what's happening. Nonetheless, I forgot you were in this movie too. This, uh, the P the, the Kevin movie, Jesus Christ.

We need to talk about Kevin. That was a fucking heavy movie. It was. Wow. Do you like heavy movie to make too? Yeah. Did you like working with tilda swinton she's sort of a gifted person she's one of those bodhisattvas total touched by the light sort of person like her kind of she has this expansive view of things yeah really kind of amazing. Just when you just talk to her? Yeah, she just, I don't know.

You ever meet people where you're like, that person knows some of the secrets or something. They know, they're seeing the bigger picture in a way that I'm just not seeing it. And I'm looking at 20% of the frame, they're seeing the whole thing. And I feel like Tilda's one of those people. Meryl Streep is one of those people.

Like, they're just, I don't know. They're just something. I don't really believe in reincarnation or whatever, but there is something. There's a wisdom that those people had from the get-go that's different than, I've learned a lot of stuff over time, but those people like know something in inherently right and she's just so i mean tilda is so down to earth and funny and sexy and intelligent yeah yeah and it's must

been amazing just work i mean you must have had that experience a lot to work with people that you think are great and just i've been really lucky i got really lucky on my first movie and that first movie casualties of war that we started talking about that was a great first job to get because then i then i had okay well i'm not gonna go do like chucky three after after that right right i gotta aim a little higher because the truth is i would have done anything at that point yeah i just got lucky that i got cast in a movie with sean penn who is i would have done anything at that point yeah i just got lucky that i got cast in a movie with sean penn who's a very high integrity and someone who's like a great great actor who you know who showed me like this is the way you do it this is what's important he

showed you all that stuff's not important he showed me by the way he lives example yeah under his wing yeah he was like what do you what are you going to do next? I got this movie, We're No Angels. You should think about auditioning for it. I was like, well, I'm being offered this movie, Memphis Belle, which is also a good movie, but I'm thinking about doing that. My agent says I should do that one. He's like, who? Memphis Belle.

He's like, no, no. Who said you should do it? My agent said I shouldn't. He's like, that's the last person you should be asking for advice about what to do. And to a 22-year-old person, that was a real shocker because getting an agent was a big thing to me. I thought, I'm set. That's what you do. You talk to your agent and they figure it out.

And he was right. I thought, I'm set. That's what you do. You talk to your agent and they figure it out. And he was right. That is the last person you should be asking for advice about whether you should do something. Now, that person can really help you get the money you should be getting. Yeah.

They can help you be treated the way you want to be treated once you get the job. But in terms of which job, one over the other, they are the last person you should be asking. Yeah, yeah. You really have to ask yourself and you have to ask people who are also artists that you respect. Yeah, and you learned that right then. Yeah. That was a good lesson to learn early on. Yeah, I got lucky.

Yeah, and you did a lot of great stuff. like you're aware of the title of character actor, you know, and I find that those actors are usually the most interesting and the most memorable. Well, it's really, it's an outdated term. It's a studio term from the old days of studio. You know, it's like, you know, the way they would kind of categorize you. The truth is, like, I think Leo DiCaprio is a character actor. A lot of these guys that play leads in movies are character actors. They're transformational actors.

I don't think Michael Caine's a character actor. Michael Caine is an exceptionally talented actor who kind of plays the same, close to what I imagine his personality is. I know, but I thought that about you too. But I think you're wrong. Right. I think, yeah, whatever.

I have similarities to Michael Caine in that how much I work and the kind of workhorse actor that I am or whatever. But I don't think you go into, well, I hope you don't go into a movie that I'm in thinking like, I know what I'm getting here. Classic Riley performance. Well, that would just mean good. I think character actors are people. Yeah, a good performance.

That submerge their own personalities in service of the character. that submerge their own personalities in service of the character. And then there's other great, great actors who play some version of their personality over and over, and the character comes to them. The movie comes to the way they are. Who's an example of that? Like George Clooney, maybe? Yeah, maybe. You know, Harrison Ford, I think, is like that.

you know Harrison Ford I think it's like that these guys are super super talented but they're lucky enough to have made a career where the character comes to them the story comes to them as opposed to them fitting themselves into something you know

but I think of myself as someone who fits into what's there as opposed to like look folks this is the way John Reilly works I think of myself as someone who fits into what's there. Yeah, you make your... As opposed to, like, look, folks, this is the way John Reilly works. John Reilly does not wear that color. John Reilly likes a breakfast burrito at 814. Thank you.

I'm sad you didn't bring guitar. I thought maybe we'd sing. I'm sad you don't. You have a guitar, right? I got plenty of guitars. What do you like to play? Blues? We... Country? I have plenty of guitars. What do you like to play? Blues? We, I have a bluegrass, not bluegrass, it's more like folk Americana, although I hate

that term. Yeah. Because there's lots of things that are American, but we play old classic melodies from the Tree of Song. Oh, yeah? Bluegrass, folk music, and country music primarily. Oh, that's great. Me and a couple other people,

and it's sometimes as many as eight people, oftentimes just three or four. Oh, that sounds great. Do a lot of close harmony singing. Oh, that's great. Yeah. That must be like a nice thing. Like, I love to play.

I don't play with people a lot. You know, sometimes I do, but I play a lot. But it's so nice to be sitting with a group of people playing music. And having that for me, it gives me something to do that I really believe in in between jobs. So I don't take things because I want to work that are not good jobs to take music does that for you yeah music keeps you doing things that you love to do as opposed to i don't know acting can be a really high burnout job if you take things that you don't believe in you can make you ill it hurts you yeah it takes away chips away at your soul yeah you just i don't know you get lost you lose yourself

it's that old native American thing of like, they didn't like their picture taken because they thought it was taking some part of yourself. I think there is something to that. Right, if it's the wrong cameraman or director. Or even if it's the right one. You're slowly giving parts of yourself away, you know? Uh-huh.

Just like this stupid interview we just did. That's a fine way to end. I love it. No. it was great talking to you thank you did you have a good time at least yeah i had a great time i would i would i almost wish it wasn't recorded yeah right and it wasn't going to be shared with millions of people that you and i just had this conversation but yeah maybe people listening to it will have a virtual experience like we've just had. Yeah, I hope so.

That would be nice. And eventually they'll have the technology. Thanks, John. Thank you. How fun was that? I love that guy. John C. Reilly. Go see The Lobster.

Watch, check it out. Dr. Steve Brule on Adult Swim. Go see any of his movies any of the old ones he's great as always go to wtfpod.com you can order a poster get a t-shirt you can check my tour dates you can see the episode guide if you're wondering if somebody that you're a fan of has been on the show am i gonna play guitar is that that's the question where am i at time wise huh maybe I can. Thank you. Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.