WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 733 - Werner Herzog / Godfrey

Episode Date: August 15, 2016

Werner Herzog is one of the only people who could make a great movie from inside Marc's garage. With a new documentary about the internet on his mind, the legendary filmmaker talks with Marc about the achievements and follies of humanity. You know, light stuff. Also, Godfrey stops by again so he and Marc can trade insults under the guise of promoting his new special. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuckeneers? What the fuckarikans? What the fucktuckians? What the fuckanoids? I don't know, what the fuckarikans, what the fucktuckians, what the fuckanoids. I don't know where that one came from.

What's happening? I'm Mark, this is my show, welcome to the show. It's WTF, it's a podcast. I will welcome new people as I see fit here at the beginning of the show. I hope you're doing alright. Today on the show, I'm going to chat with, uh, I'm going to have a slightly contentious but fun, ball-busting chat with my old buddy, Godfrey. Godfrey has a Showtime special that is now available on demand at Showtime. His special, it's called Regular Black.

It's on Showtime, but you can watch it, of course, anytime on Showtime on demand. Watch it, of course, anytime on Showtime On Demand. Later in the show, Werner Herzog, the film director, documentary director, writer, actor. But a force of nature will be on the show for a bit. We're going to talk about his new film, his new documentary, which was, I found to be frightening, but also very life-embracing. But I tend to lean towards the frightening. It's called Lo and Behold, Reveries of the Connected World. It's in theaters and on demand this Friday, August 19th.

It was great to talk to him. I was nervous because he is a very specific and defined presence and an astoundingly prolific artist. And I enjoyed having him here in the garage. And hopefully you will enjoy our conversation. Also, tickets going fast. And I'm happy to say that because I'm always nervous about how things will go. But the Carnegie Hall presale went very well. And now tickets are on sale in a larger way.

I don't know what that means. More outlets, more promotion. So congratulations to those who got tickets for my November 4th show at Carnegie Hall in New York City during the pressale because a lot of those seats went very quickly. And now they're open to the general public in a broader way. They're on sale full on. So you can go to nycomedyfestival.com, nycomedyfestival.com, find my little mug, my little face, click on it, and get tickets to my November 4th Carnegie Hall show.

I'm very excited about it. My buddy Nate Bargetzi is going to do the opening slot. I'm thrilled, but there's part of me that thinks maybe that should be it. Maybe that should be the last thing. Carnegie Hall and then like, I'm good. I'm going to live on an island off the coast of Seattle now in a small house with several cats who are unafraid of coyotes but I don't know there are wolves up there anyway Carnegie Hall tickets on sale nycomedyfestival.com so a couple of things I'm reading this book and I don't lock into books that often in a way that I'm like holy shit this is the best book I've read in a long time. It's a nonfiction book.

I've been sitting around in a pile of books I had for a long time. I get a lot of shit, folks. People send me a lot of stuff. Publishers send me stuff. So I get radio station almost. I just get tons of stuff. I had to get an office to process stuff.

And a lot of stuff moves through. A lot of stuff moves on. Some books I donate to the library some records i use to barter for other records but this book it just sat there and i'm like that book is something there's something in that book i didn't know what was in it but i held on to it it's called dreamland the true tale of america's opiate epidemic by a guy named Sam Quinones. I don't know if I'm saying his name right. I'm pronouncing it like that. Q-U-I-N-O-N-E-S. Quinones, I'm going to say. I don't know how he pronounces it. I apologize if that's wrong, Sam. But I'm going to try to talk to Sam. But this book is... Did you

read Fast Food Nation? Fast Food Nation about about the fast food industry, was an astoundingly compelling journalistic endeavor that changed my life, changed the way I thought about a lot of things. This book, Dreamland, it does the same thing except for black tar heroin and oxycodone. It is it moved through several different trajectories and storylines to sort of give you a historical perspective of the painkiller epidemic that in turn led to the black tar heroin epidemic all the way down to geographical locations, economic realities, pharmaceutical posturing, misinformation, but it really goes all the way back and all the way through the pain management racket that my father was involved with for a time and into the Mexican heroin, black tar heroin racket, which had a very unique and distinct business structure that was essentially nonviolent. This is what's amazing about this book in a lot of ways, aside from everything historically and journalistically, is that this is a story of a massive national drug industry, black, you know, black tar heroin, a illegal drug industry that has very little violence and that should be compelling it is it's a great book hopefully i'm going to find sam

and talk to him i believe he lives down the street but it's blowing my mind pick it up dreamland by sam quinones i hope i hope uh good job sam if you're listening Quinones, I hope. I hope. Good job, Sam, if you're listening. You know, I have bluster. I have bravado. I have a certain amount of cockiness.

I do. I do. But I am not a fist fighter. I am not a puncher. I am not a punchee. It's surprising that I have not been a punchee. I would think that would, you know, would get his ass kicked a couple of times. So my girlfriend, Sarah, the painter, lives not far from me. And she was having some problems with a neighbor who rented the house next to hers from a woman who owns the house.

And it was a couple, a young couple who had a couple of dogs. And these dogs started shitting down in the yard. And now the way my girlfriend's house is set up, the backyard of that house next to hers is right in basically in front of where her kitchen is. So these dogs are just shitting and shitting and shitting. And this guy who is renting the house is not cleaning up the shit. So there's this waft of horrendous shit smell dog shit smell coming into her fucking house every goddamn day and building so there starts the tension like why don't you clean up after your fucking dogs and he says he will and he doesn't and then it's just it's just

grown-up shit dude now i'm talking to him it's like clean up the dog shit and then there was an issue of this guy parking his car in front of sarah's driveway because he can't find other spaces on the street and he feels like he deserves to park in front of the house he's renting I don't know where he comes from or what his situation is and he's always in there you know you know shouting about this and that it is you know to his girlfriend it's just one of those escalating neighbor situations where it's like if you don't find a parking space in in front of your house welcome to the big city, fella. Take a loop.

Loop around. Find another place. Grow the fuck up. Clean up after your pig dogs. That's the back story. And I'm hearing about it. You know, so I've offered. I said, look, let's go over there and just talk to him. Try to reason with this dude about growing the fuck up and learning that sometimes you don't get the parking space you want.

If you have two big fucking dogs, you got to clean up their dog shit. That. So I get a call yesterday from Sarah and she's like, come over. Can you come over now, please? Can you just come over? I need you. And then she hung up. I could hear him yammering and I didn't know.

So I'm worked up but i'm not you know i'm not thinking i'm gonna kick this guy's ass but i'm a little worked up and i drive over it's five minutes away and i drive and i see him he's standing out there in his shorts with no shirt on a little guy with his little sideways haircut no you know half a beard you know no shirt and his sandals and he's you know sarah's standing there and i just fucking pull up and i do that thing where you just slam on the brakes in the middle of the street pop open the door step out and i go what is the problem what's the problem here and this guy immediately starts

backpedaling there's no problem and i'm like do we need to call the cops do the cops need to be involved in this problem and she's like i just he's parked in the in the driveway he's like i was i was gonna move it i was gonna move it and i wasn't gonna leave it here and i just came unraveled and i wasn't gonna fucking hit the guy i was like i right away said we could call the cops and work this out and i'm like just what is the issue and he's like well i'm sorry and i just is i was gonna move it like and then it gets to the point where i think he's gonna cry and i'm like oh my god God. And like, I'm not, never once in my mind did I think I was going to hit him or have a physical altercation. I just wanted him to understand that he can't behave the way he's behaving. And he just started spinning

and it looked like he was getting choked up. And then I was sort of like, all right, all right, just relax. Will you just take it easy? All right. right and you know when i got in the car and i found him a parking space and drove off and i was like what the fuck like like i you know not only did i not have any violent intentions but like i didn't want to have to deal with the guy sobbing so apparently like they started he started screaming after i left in the house like there there are unenlightened people who solves the problem with fighting they're animals unenlightened because Sarah thought like well when he sees who you are he's gonna he's gonna feel pretty embarrassed but not only did that guy not know who I was which isn't unusual he thought we were unenlightened animals who only knew how to

solve things with fighting like how could you mistake me for a tough guy driving up in my Camry hybrid, getting out of my car, wearing my Iggy and the Stooges T-shirt, you know, in my glasses? The animals, unenlightened animals. That's me. That's me, just a monster, a Neanderthal in a Camry hybrid with my red wing boots on that animal complete fucking just a low-life monster i i wanted to i wanted sarah and i to to put both of our books on his

front uh porch as a gift from the unenlightened but But, you know, we decided against it. I just, you know, I just hope the guy grows up a little bit. That was my only intention. So now we come to Godfrey. Godfrey and I go way back. I enjoy him where it's always funny. He's one of these people that I like to bust his balls. He receives it well and he needs it. He needs it badly. So this is me and Godfrey doing what me and Godfrey do. You can watch his new special, Regular Black, on Showtime. It's airing here and there, but you can watch it anytime on Showtime On Demand. So let's do what me and Godfrey do. We can wait for clean water solutions. Or we can engineer access to clean water. We can acknowledge indigenous cultures. Or we can learn from indigenous voices.

We can demand more from the earth. Or we can demand more from ourselves. At York University, we work together to create positive change for a better tomorrow. Join us at yorku.ca slash write the future. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the I'm too small for

this mindset hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Pre-do. You want to get on the fucking mic like a professional you just want to stand there like an idiot how do you want to handle it first of all when you set up the obama shit and it was on in your list it's right after mine yeah i was getting mad heat i fucking heat that's right in the streets people like i heard you on marin one of the best interviews i've ever fucking heard i'm not even like no that's right you were right before obama yeah because i said you need some more black people on this bitch yeah and i

couldn't tell you i probably couldn't tell you we were oh no no no no no but i said but i said i said but why does it have to be the super, super, super, super famous ones? Get the medium ones. Yeah. Medium black. I'm medium. Medium black. Medium famous.

That's me. Kind of medium. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All I need is that one thing that'll take me to the next level. That's funny. I forgot. Because we recorded it. And I brought it up.

And then your episode, that's funny i forgot like you because we were and i brought it up and then your episode that's what it was your episode got so much fucking hits because they everyone who never even heard of the podcast before they listen to obama and they're like what's another one what's this one before obama so it all tracked like your episode was huge you see what because of obama thank Thank Obama. Thank Obama. Fuck that. It's all right. I can do him. I'm glad I'm here. Yeah, that's pretty good.

This is nice. I'm glad. I heard that you need more black people. It's good. Yeah, it's pretty good. It's pretty good, right? Yeah. Even you like it.

Yeah, it's good. You know how- I would never do an impersonation in front of you. Why? Because you just make that face. No, I- You just go like this. You go like this. You know how I would never do an impersonation in front of you. Why? Because you just make that face. No, I don't. You just go like this. You go like this.

There you go. Yeah, that's a good one. That's good. Me being polite. Yeah, I'm not going to laugh at it, but I'll acknowledge you've done something in front of me. Oh, good for you. How's that working out for you? That's so fucked up.

That's like walking to an audition room and there's a dude on a series already. And he actually comes in for that too. And he goes, hey, good luck, guys. Fuck you. As he's walking out. Everyone's laughing and patting him on the back. Yeah. Who's next?

Yeah. Oh, fuck you. It's next yeah oh fuck you it's the worst or when it's the one black part and all every black dude's in there they go yo fellas keep it up man fuck out of here i don't want you here one black guy i want a black guy on television the one black guy you guys all know him oh fuck oh i'm the only one in an audition that I don't fake the funk, man. And when a certain guy walks in, I go, ah, come on. Because he's fake.

No, you got two shows already. Why are you here? Everyone else goes, oh, what's up, dude? Oh, what's up? What's good, baby? How you been? I'm like this.

Everything sucks right now. Nothing's fucking good. Why are you here? Why are you taking all the work here why are you taking all the work why are you taking all the goddamn work yeah you know what

black actors can actually say why are you taking all the work because it's not a lot yeah I can actually say white dudes can't say that shit yeah how about spreading it around

spread it take a break hey man hit the bench buddy I got this whole thing Steve Harvey hosts everything yeah I mean

he really he really does he hosts everything i know it's weird though like you watch him and like you know it's not like you're not going like hey yeah there's steve harvey you know he's just sort of this thing that's it's like it's it's like the tv being on there's steve harvey's involved you know what i mean it's like i saw him i don't even know what the show was but he was sitting there talking to a kid i'm like what fucking show is this it's called big shots yeah hot little big shot when i was so i actually watched it for a minute though and i watched art link letter shit uh but i watched it without sound it must have been on a plane or something and i was watching

him listen to kids he was listening to him because i'm i talk to people and i'm like it'd be very easy like oh god you know that's not an easy thing no to sit there and act interested in a fucking Just watching him listen to kids. He was listening to them. Because I talk to people. And I'm like, it'd be very easy. Like, oh, God. That's not an easy thing. No. To sit there and act interested in a fucking kid. That's true. Little fuckers.

But he was like listening. And he was like, you know, the kid felt comfortable. It's not easy to make kids in front of all those people feel comfortable. That's true. And he was really picking his spots. And I was watching it all without sound. This kid must have been some sort of little Asian kid piano wizard. That's so redundant to me.

It's redundant, but there's- Little Asian kids that can play piano? Fuck that. Like, if you see, they should have a black little kid doing math, have an Asian kid tap dancing, then I'm impressed. Don't fucking- Don't challenge the Asian kids to do anything. But Asian kids doing concertos?

That's old they would do that shit in the 80s but there's only a few of them in there how many are there what there's a billion no i know of them that can play piano like that okay out of the billion at least at least a hundred million a hundred million fucking asshole parents immediately on birth on birth dude they have them playing concertos but an asian kid playing concerto is boring a black kid playing concerto more interesting yeah no they don't think we know what concertos are but how many black guys even really tap dance anymore just that one guy well at auditions we're still doing it oh you mean metaphorically we've never stopped

right at auditions oh i'm like oh yeah yeah i'm still doing that shit so what are you doing out here okay i had a gap i had a gap and i said to my girl i said yo i think i should go to la and i airbnb'd for the first time really i never did that but where did they put you uh well you choose it yeah i i i'm on beverly yeah my l coyote oh yeah yeah it's and it's this painter dude yeah he and it's this little room it has a bathtub shower whatever whatever i have my cable whatever it's yeah and i have this old school 1920s bed it's like one single bed then you can pop up another bed it's like one single bed, then you can pop up another bed. It's like old school shit. Oh, the trundle bed. The trundle bed. Yeah, so it's cool. It's clean.

I paid for like 10 days, $700 something. Wow. Awesome. Yeah. You know what I mean? I have a refrigerator. I have a stove. Now you're in though.

You're going to be Airbnb-ing all the fucking time. I'm Airbnb-ing my fucking ass off. And he doesn't live there. He lives next door, but he has a lot of artist friends. So many people do that. They just have, they buy houses to do that. Dude, it's the shit. Because these hotels try to fuck you, man.

Like, how much for a day? Get the fuck, come on. You see, that's when you let, let's let you know that I haven't made it, made it yet. I'm fucking Airbnb and shit. You didn't have to tell me. but I haven't made it made it yet. I'm fucking Arabian being shit. You didn't have to tell me.

That's why I come here. That's why I come here. I come here to get fucked up. I didn't have to tell you. I can just look at you and see. Word out in the street. There is no word out on the street. I can tell by the emails.

Dude. I did say that. I said, dude, thanks a lot with exclamation point. But no, can I come back on? Yeah. I have no problem begging. I don't give a shit. But wait, so you're just hanging out?

No, I have a bunch of meetings. A bunch of meetings i'm of course doing a laugh factory and you know the improv and the comedy store but i i wanted to come out because i needed to face to face with everybody yeah yeah yeah face to face with my agents blah blah blah blah blah and i said i need to call marin and i want to come back to this i didn't know you didn't do repeats. We do the short ones. Which is fine. I didn't know, though. But there's only certain guys that I get, you know, that have a thing where we can talk. Yeah, me and you are good. We're funny.

Oh, yeah, I know. People love when we talk. You act like I asked you to be in a comedy team. What the fuck? I feel like you guys, you and Godfrey are good together. Like, don't. I'm so glad I'm doing okay. Because that'd be someone's shitty idea you guys

ever think of no no not hell fucking no how would that be just two guys laughing at each other hurting each other's feelings that's what i like about you're such a loner you don't even hang out with your own people well that's the thing is like well people like you don't have any black friends i don't have any friends. Are you serious? One dude I call. You know, you're the only person that can say, I don't see color. Yeah. Because they're not over here.

No one's there. White, black. No one's at the house. And Mark Barrett says, I don't see color. He's not bullshitting you. Yo, but I'm saying this, Mark. Yes. I don't give a shit. I'm putting my bit in that's how you i see

all these dudes going on other people's podcasts because they got a dude that accepts them you know you're the dude you actually let me come over you hang out you talk you like let me on your shit yeah and everyone gets that i don't get that yeah you know what I mean? Yeah. I'm willing to give you a break. I'm giving you a big break. If it has to come from this, so fucking be it. If I have to fly out to LA just to do your shit, I would do that shit. I will Airbnb

for two days to do Marin. I don't fuck around. If it's like once a month, whatever the fuck, I'm putting my dib in as your Nubian friend. I've changed the name. I'm not black anymore, dog. Now it's Nub a month, whatever the fuck, I'm putting my dib in as your Nubian friend. I've changed the name. I'm not black anymore, dog. Now it's Nubian?

Fuck black. Let me tell you why. What's the Kachina doll again? Kachina's Kokopelli? Kokopelli and Nubian. But listen. Nubian, Kokopelli. I'm going to tell you why I want to be Nubian now. All right.

I'm your Nubian friend. Let me tell you why. Yeah. But that sounds like it's sort of like- It's almost space age. Yeah, it is. Why not? We're in a high-tech fucking era now is this the new hook new listen this is real right like you know how they put the bids up it went first it was colored negro colored african-american fucking nubian let me tell you why okay because i understand why you'll see black people who are

half black whatever they'll they'll they'll talk about everything else but being black even though they look it they'll go i'm swedish right i'm irish right i'm and you're looking at them like okay you're skipping yeah skipping you're skipping wait you're but they go then they'll say black but if you look at phonetically irish sounds amazing like i'm irish i'm swedish the ish it's a sweet word black fucks it all up phonetically black it's just a horrible word yeah yeah i get it like where you're almost supposed to go like that's what ruined it exactly and check it out there there's like there you go that's what i'm seeing that's what i'm seeing that's what's pissing me off i knew it. Black. It's fucking horrible.

No wonder people deny it. Black. It's a color you put on a crayon. Black. Look at what I look like when I say black. Black. It's like I'm vomiting. Black.

You can spit and say black. Black. Black. Black. Black. Now watch me do white. White. Yeah.

I smile as soon as I say white. Yeah. No wonder. I keep it. I'm i'm white i'm white yeah it you're smiling yeah what you're using your smiling muscles right takes 14 white white black see you see how you look yeah black yeah black black i never thought about it's almost derogatory black so you're going with nubian but what about african-american i don't mind african i'm really african so i can say i say nigerian specifically so it adds some exotic shit to it

yeah i go i'm nigerian because it's specific i'm congolese i'm ethiopian congolese i like that oh it's amazing but listen heavy place though heavy place yeah like nubian fuck it so african-americans from america don't deny their shit. They'll go, watch this. I'm Irish. I'm Swedish. I'm Nubian. Oh, Nubian. Okay.

Yeah, my dad's Nubian. He's part Nubian. Yeah. Fucking amazing. I'm changing the language. What's holding you back? What do you mean what's holding me back? I don't know.

Shitty managers? I don't fucking know. My agents are great like i said innovative is the shit what what what'd you do at comedy central today um i just got weirded out oh really no i comics i had a meeting and i was supposed to meet with a particular guy he didn't come to the to the meeting oh that's the worst where you have it like that's the guy you're supposed to be i was and i'm still gonna try and meet him. I'm like, bullshit. I'm like, he's a good dude. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I just, I just sometimes, stand up wise, I'm where I need to be. But when it, sometimes when it comes to pitching shit,

I get insecure as fuck, man. Really? I just don't think, I go, are they gonna like this shit? Really? I get weirded out,

man. I'm not gonna lie. That's what's holding me back because I have a lot of good ideas, but I get afraid to flesh them out. Well,

here's the trick to that. What's the trick? They have no idea what they're going to like one way or the other. They have a lot of open spots in their day, and they're like, let's bring a funny guy in. And see what happens. You think so? Yeah. That's why they're taking the meeting.

Basically, it's a cry for help at all levels. You think it's a cry for help? Look levels you think it's a cry for help look at network television yeah are you kidding me it's like they're just hemorrhaging viewers they don't even know how to no they're like we don't know where anyone's watching anything it's in a way it's kind of cool it's it's great are you kidding me you just walk in you throw the power out of their hands here's your confidence like i'll guarantee people will watch your network with this oh there it is. Well, I am. I have to admit, though, I am better at my meetings because I'm more straight to the

point. I'm more honest. Not in a bad way, but I'm just more to the point, and I kind of know what I want, and I kind of ask them the questions more, and I'm a little smarter from being just... I'm like an old whore, an old prostitute that I'm trying to... You know, when you talk to the young hoes, you're like this, listen, baby, all you got to do, go in there, get your ass, suck the dick, and get out and get your money, baby. I'm telling you, you don't want to waste too much time.

You give me the money. I'm like an old prostitute. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? So. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't want to be a woulda, coulda, shoulda, man.

That freaks me out a little bit. I don't think you are you are you seem to have been you've tried to do everything you want you know i like how you're mayweathering me right now you're just jabbing oh and i'm like fuck you got me oh fuck you got me you don't have knockout punches you don't have knockout punches but you're you're opening up you're opening up the bottom of my eye a little bit i'm like yeah yeah by the time we're done you're like i'm quitting i give up throwing it out you that was good i didn't even mean to that's the weird thing with you it just happened so naturally another jab you're getting a lot of points from body punches not knockout but you laugh at it love it because it's fucking hysterical. Because no matter what you do to me on this show, it's better than, I'd rather have Mark

Marin fuck with me on his show than you not invite me here. Yeah. Why? Are you kidding me? Because you try to be mean, but I see right through that shit. I know. I've been through your pain man that's why i like you like a lot of people think i'm really mean and i'm like they

don't know me and that's like i thought about that the other day because i think it's like a bit i'm working on it's like like i'm i'm an asshole but i'm but i'm really a nice guy so like so anyone who thinks i'm an asshole like they should right that's one person i'll have to deal with that's how it weeds out your face exactly just like oh i'm not gonna talk yeah yeah good good good eat it it's like if you can see my heart good here we go yeah yeah i know exactly who could see it i know exactly right and you know yeah they're dudes that are sort of like i'm not gonna put up with anything the pretend asshole pretend asshole pretending yeahend asshole. You're pretending. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I want to hear that shit. Yeah. And then you offer me coffee. You're hospitable in your house. Shit like that. So I don't want to hear that shit. You know, I think you cook for people, too, if you cook. I have.

I knew it. I fucking knew it. John, some people come over, they forget to eat. You got, what about us, man? I don't know. I just ate all that thing. I ate all the papaya. I don't have any good snacks right now.

You don't have any good snacks? Mm-mm. I had some cereal. Yeah, what kind of cereal you fuck with? Puffins. The fucking bird? Ugh. What do you mean?

You like puffins? That's the bird. That's the wannabe Toucan Sam. I know what it is. Get the Froot Loops, dude. No. Get the Raisin Bran Crunch. Puffins are dry as shit.

Let me ask you a question. Are you a fucking grown-up? Yeah. That's why I'm asking you to get me some fucking cereal. Some Froot Loops. Get me some goddamn Froot Loops, man. What the fuck? That's what you do.

Froot Loops. You know, that's what you do as a grown-up. You eat cereal when the fuck you want, and you don't have to wait for your parents to tell you. No, I know, but I eat good cereal. Healthy. Puffins? They're just like Captain Crunch. They're crunchy.

I know. They're those little corn crunch. Pillows, yeah. They're like Captain Crunch. They're crunchy. I know. They're those little corn crunch pillows. They're like little pillows. That shit is whack, dude. All right. It's whack. But it's not as bad as some other. Poffins?

What do you want me to eat? Raisin Bran Crunch. Not Raisin Bran. No, I can make Raisin Bran. I got Bran Flakes and I got Raisins. Raisin Bran Crunch. You know what else is good? Life.

Cinnamon Life. Cinnamon? Why can't you just go with the original? Nah, that shit's whack. Raisin bread crunch. You know what else is good? Life. Cinnamon life. Cinnamon? Why can't you just go with the original life? Nah, that shit's white. Cinnamon life is tight. I used to eat Cocoa Pebbles when I was a kid. Not bad. Cocoa Pebbles is good.

Cocoa Pebbles is good. Fruity? Cocoa Pebbles? I don't like the Fruity Pebbles. No? No, I got a problem with it. If it gets soggy. Yeah.

See, I like a little milk, keep the shit top to top, crunchy. Yeah. And then once it gets soggy, I toss it out. I like soggy puffins. Fucking. Soggy puffins. That sounds like old, nasty ass. I think we've covered it all.

Did we cover it all? Yeah. Why are you here? I'm here because you said I could come and promote my new hour special that I filmed. I shot, okay, whatever you want to say. I shot in Chicago. At the Vic? No.

They did a bunch of those at the Vic. I decided to go with rooftop comedy, Matt Shuler and crew. Yeah. Giving them credit, Matt Shuler and crew. Rooftop, it was at Second City at Up. Oh, Up's good. Second City. That's good.

You know I had a job they're not gonna do it anymore I know JB who is awesome JB said they were not gonna do any more comedies anymore

which is sad good room I never got to play it great room I used to play I did mine at the Vic I'm glad Showtime's doing good ass shit man

yeah they're doing good stuff and you know what you need to be on there where people can just pick your shit out and watch it that's right

and it's good they still need stuff and I think They're doing good stuff. And you know what? You need to be on there where people can just pick your shit out and watch it. That's right. And it's good they still need stuff. And I think... I need an eight count. Are you sure you want to still be in this fight? Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I still want to be in this fight.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. That was a good one, Mark. Fuck. I love his shit. I don't even know why I'm so good at it with you. You're so good at it. That's why I need to come more often.

Not on some crazy shit, but just... All right, so... I'm an interesting dude to you. You know this. I'm your man. I have a good time. You have a good time with me, sir. Let's not go crazy.

Fuck. Interesting. Anything you talk about, I can talk about with you. It doesn't matter. Well, I know we talk about country music. Let's save that. Let's save that one. Yeah. All right. So you want some puffins fuck that i want maybe dry

puffins all right bye all right peace oh yes godfried and marin that the the fun sp funny, kind of almost crying engagement that we do. Again, Regular Black is airing on Showtime On Demand and on Showtime in general, I believe. Werner Herzog is here. I was thrilled to talk to him. He's one of those guys who I've seen a lot of his movies, but I obviously haven't seen all of his movies. And there's always some part of me that thinks I should see everything or listen to everything or read everything that my guests have written

or shot or done or recorded. But it never matters. I knew what I wanted to talk to him about in a way. I just wanted to talk to him about things. It was an exciting honor to meet Werner Herzog. So this is me and Werner. His new documentary is called Lo and Behold, Reveries of the Connected World. It's in theaters and on demand this Friday, August 19th. What is the last thing that you finish reading?

An obscure historian, Greek antiquity. Yeah. Diodorus Siculus. So it's an actual Greek historian from BC. Yes. And when you read something like that, outside of the dates and information, what do you glean from it?

In this case, I would say it's a soap opera story about the father of Alexander the Great, Philip II of Macedon. And Diodorus Siculus is a fairly unintelligent writer, more an encyclopedist. But all of a sudden, when it comes to the father of Alexander the Great, he's brilliant and wild and unbelievable. Apparently, Diodorus Siculus had access to sources that others didn't have in antiquity. Right. So he got the inside information. Well, we never know exactly. Is it really inside information, how much is made up, how much is sort of slightly inclination into propaganda?

You don't know. Right. But what do you find is, I mean, when you think, because even watching the new movie, it seems that sometimes you really kind of focus on the sort of vulnerability of humans and their needs and desires and where that takes them. So when you look at something like a propagandist or somebody that's perhaps switching history around, what do you think creates that dynamic? Do you think he was working for the state or do you think he was... No, no, no.

History is always a question of perception. So whenever you read history, any kind of history, it is always perception. Right. There's always a tendency unbeknownst or beknownst to the writer. Right. And you have to read the historical context and you have to read the mood of the time and you have to understand the argument within the context of the time.

Right. So then it becomes fascinating. Right. Because you have the whole world. You can look at the whole world of what's happening. You then it becomes fascinating. Right. Because you have the whole world. You can look at the whole world of what's happening. You have the full context. You will never have the full context. That's an illusion.

But you can get snippets of it. Well, when I was watching Lo and Behold, the new documentary, it was not a good night for me. You know, I enjoyed the movie, but I didn't sleep well. I had dreams of spiders for some reason. I don't know why,

but I found myself terrified at the end of it and that I should be doing something to... That's the odd thing at the end of that film, is that, like, I should be doing something to protect what? There's no way out, really. Yes, of course there is. Why are you so sounding so doomed? It's kind of weird.

Is it? Yes, of course. Do I not show some of the glories of the internet, for example? Oh, no, yeah, no, it's great. But what I found the most glorious was the passion of these scientists and these researchers and even the security analysts that the challenge of now managing the monster or the beautiful thing, however you want to look at it, is really going to be the humanity's work is going to be managing this monster. You see that the Internet is not good or evil. Right. Nor is electricity.

Right. It doesn't have qualities beyond the technical qualities. Right. Although, if we strap you onto an electric chair and execute you, you better recalibrate your opinion a few minutes before we do that. Right. So in the hands of humans this amazing force

can go either way. Yeah, well humans are good or evil. They are. And much worse so much of the time they are very stupid. And there's a certain danger stupid and evil are not mutually exclusive in any way like a lot of the very uh classic stupid evil people that have done great damage in their stupidity you know i sorry that i

would like to tell you a dream. Please. Because I hardly ever dream. When did it happen? Not long ago, but I dream maybe once in a year. Really? And I was running in a street in Mexico somehow, pursued by God knows what. And at an intersection, I bump into a donkey. somehow pursued by God knows what.

And at an intersection, I bump into a donkey that has some sort of a load packed on it. And I'm knocked down and somebody, a priest, picks me up and shakes me and screams at me, do you believe in the forces of evil? Do you renounce Satan himself? And somehow, perplexed as I was, I said, I do not believe in the devil. I only believe in stupidity.

That was what I dreamt. So, you better figure that one out is that that seems like a good short film it's almost did you grow up with religion uh no not at all well i had a deeply religious phase in my adolescence and i converted to Catholicism, which didn't last very long. How old? I was a very 13, 14. What compelled you? That's too complex to discuss it here, but it is a fact that I had a very intense, dramatic

religious phase that in a way threatened to break the family apart which was a family of militant atheists huh yeah would you do when you look back on it do you think it maybe that was the reason you did it was to find independence I had. I was independent since I started to think independently, even before that. Yeah. Because my brothers and I grew up in an environment where there were no fathers. Because of the war? Yes. We had to take care of ourselves.

We had to shape our destiny. We understood it. We have to be self-reliant so would you so what year was that what year were you born 1942 in the middle of the second world war oh my god my very first uh reminiscences are um connected to the very end of the war like uh like very visually like like sounds and destruction connected to the very end of the war. Very visually. Like sounds and destruction? Actually, no destruction.

I didn't see destruction because my mother fled to the mountains, to the most remote valley in the Alps. Because where I was born, there was a carpet bombardment in the Alps. Because where I was born, there was a carpet bombardment and we were really in danger. So my mother fled. Oh, that was good.

And I do remember, however, that she ripped my older brother and me out of our beds in the middle of the night and carried us, and it was cold, and she wrapped us into blankets. And she said, children, boys, I had to wake you up. You have to see this. And at the end of the valley, very far in the distance, the horizon was completely, in the middle of the night, dark night. The horizon was pulsing in red and orange, the entire horizon. And she says, boys, you have to see this. The city of Rosenheim is burning.

And the city of Rosenheim, 30 miles away at least. Was it leveled? Completely, yes. Like pretty much every major city in uh in germany 720 cities were completely leveled but leveled the way ground zero looked like yeah and that was only a tiny fraction of new york city yeah and it just a few very few cities were not actually bombed by virtue of some statistical errors, I think. Oh, really? They didn't need to be bombed, do you mean?

No, they were forgotten maybe, or they didn't. Somebody was not keeping track of what had been destroyed and what was still out there. Yeah. So your father died in the war? No. He was in captivity and then very soon after the war, divorced. When did you move back into a city? When it was time to go to high school.

That means age 11. And when you got back, which city did you go back to? Munich, where I was born. So it was, how long did it take for them to reconstruct that city? Some of it is still filling up. There are still gaps that are filling up. But i would say basically by the time of the munich olympics were held 1972 they utilized some of the mountains that were built up as part of the olympic landscape yeah and these mountains were is I mean, gigantic amounts of cubic feet. It was all rubble. And it was flat.

But now you do have, we call it Schottberge, the debris mountains. Right. And now they're overgrown with grass and trees. And they look like very normal landscape. grass and trees and they look like very normal landscape but uh archaeologists of the future in a thousand years will dig into it and they will find millions and millions of of cubic feet billions of cubic feet of rubble rubble and pieces of history whatever Whatever, yes. So when you knew that, when did you start thinking creatively in terms of wanting to pursue film

or wanting to pursue a life of art? That was the same time I converted to Catholicism. I started to travel on foot. I knew I was going to be a poet, a filmmaker, and... Thirteen. Fourteen, I would say. Yeah.

And then things, it was all in a very short span of time. And somehow I'm still carried by it until today. By the purpose of it? No, accepting, recognizing my fate. That is what you are? Yes, it sounds a little bit pathetic. You better touch this term, accepting or understanding your fate. You better touch it only with a pair of pliers.

But I think you know what I mean. I do. with a pair of pliers, but I think you know what I mean. I do. Yeah. I do. Is that you understood what you are here to do?

Yes. Giving meaning to my life in an otherwise meaningless and aimless universe. Yeah. So it's almost like it is saving your life on some level. No, no, of course not.

Okay. My life was given to me by some strange coincidence, statistically improbable, but now I'm here. So I better had to figure out what to do with it but do you i i mean because if i when i watch the documentaries and some of the feature films i you know these they're challenging because they're they're amazingly human and they're completely compelling but uh but sometimes um dark and obviously and sometimes you know very um there's a vulnerability to them that is disturbing. Like, if I think of Grizzly Man, and I even watched, I watched Even Dwarves Started Small recently, that, you know. That's a wild one, a radical one.

It is, because, you know, it's a very challenging thing when you watch even doors were small to not uh laugh a lot of course it has a very dark humor in it very black humor and many of my films by the way have a lot of humor in it oh no yeah definitely i feel that you have a great sense of timing and a great sense of uh of where to cut you know sometimes you let things hang for a minute in the documentaries all the time or even poking fun at the internet in the use of the internet in low and behold i show buddhist monks with the next to it at the skyline and they're all tweeting so in my commentary of course makes it a very hilarious event right yes and i know how to how to deal with the internet in a way and strange enough my my humor on the internet has quite often become viral i was asked in a podcast for the first time when I showed Lo and Behold at Sundance and became a phenomenal success there.

And I was in a podcast and I asked, yeah, but I have my laptop open, but I don't see you. And I was instructed, well, you don't see me like in a Skype conversation, because this is a podcast. It's only like radio. And I said, but how do I access? And they gave me an address. You just type in this access, this keyword, and then Google us. And now comes this, of course, my kind of joke.

I asked, how for heaven's sake do i hack into google they were screaming and uh so i think you understand my type of humor no i do i i've watched a lot of the movies and and i think that that it sometimes it relieves a moment there are moments in this that are are humorous but they're also powerful. You know, when you ask that guy if he loved his robot. Yes, and he does. He does. Robot 8.

He really loves Robot 8. They all love Robot 8. Yeah. It seems to be something that you explore a lot, that we're vulnerable, and sometimes life gets away from us in certain ways and being human is fragile.

Yeah. Right? And yet what they are doing is a monumental achievement of human ingenuity. With certain dangers, of course. But it is a very momentous kind of revolution,

as momentous as, for example, the introduction of fire for early humans. Yes. Or as the introduction of electricity. That's a huge thing. Yes. It's much bigger than, let's say, printing books.

Yes. Gutenberg Bible and so on. Right. It's much bigger than all this. And it's bigger than the discovery of America by Columbus. Yes. You see, and that's why the logbook that you find at UCLA which actually did the very first

server-to-server connection between UCLA and Stanford and the very first message that was sent across should be log in but they spelled L L arrived, they asked

via telephone. Yes. Yep. L has arrived. Yeah. Has the O arrived? Yep. O has arrived. When they typed in G, the computer crashed.

So it was just low. Low, yes. And it's, as Leonard Kleinrock, the pioneer, tells us, this was a very auspicious sort of label all of a sudden. Low, like in low and behold. And they didn't even, they had no clue how momentous that moment was. And he knows it was more momentous. This tiny little entry in their logbook had more significance than Columbus's logbook on the ship This Morning We Spotted Land.

Yes. It's bigger than that. I think it is. And I guess maybe because it's a good documentary, I'm bringing a lot of my own cynicism to everything that's being discussed. I think that's what's compelling about a film like that

is that I can't not think of darkness winning, ultimately. And when they talk about when are we going to be able to walk in... Yeah, but you don't look like a guy. I mean, I see you. You sit opposite to me. You don't look like being driven by dark forces no i'm sure you love a good steak once in a while i had one the other night okay i read your face correctly yes i i am occasionally a steak eater yes and your laughter isn't fiendish no no i think i i think i'm speaking

out of fear i don't think i'm necessarily a dark guy but when i hear these guys uh you know the the guy in the planetarium saying like you know i don't want to think about that i don't want to think about a world where this thing goes wrong i don't even want to entertain that thought right now we should of course we should of course because we can take very easy precautions individually. For example, there's constant talk we should get rid of cash money and we should introduce virtual currency like bitcoins or we should only pay electronically.

No, because if the internet is down you cannot buy your hamburger at the joint down at the corner no i cannot flush your toilet anymore and you cannot go in the elevator to the 70th floor in new york city and you have no connectivity you have no radio no telephone yeah nothing right so uh we better provide ourselves with a at least a small stash of dollar bills small denominations because with a hundred dollar bill you still can buy a hamburger but they wouldn't have the change to give you back so you better have one dollar bills five ten5, $10, $20 bills. I know, but in the movie, it seems like within two or three days, there's not going to be any hamburgers either.

That could actually be, yes. No matter what you do to safeguard yourself, that within a week or two, it's going to be ugly. Yes, but now on the technical level, let's try and find certain safeguards to reinstall things, or at least regionally decentralize the entire system so that only certain parts are going to be affected, like with the electrical grid if something is uh some generation generator station is blasting away uh you reroute your currency and and uh in a similar way you can do so with the internet there's not much uh thought going into it i'm sure that for example secret services are very much interested in that so when you make a film like that you don't find yourself feeling bleak no not at all it's it's a

phenomenal phenomenal thing to to look at it and to conceptualize and to see things that have nobody has even predicted 15 years ago, and they're happening now. Do you believe? They're changing our behavior. Yes. They're changing our, let's say, at least the organization of technical civilizations. Yes.

So the Amish couldn't care less. Right. But they have a very good survival rate if everything goes down because they are self-reliant homestead farmers. Yes. And they don't even need electricity. But what about the rest of us?

We will have a harder time and we better look at what we are doing. You can go out for hunting and foraging, but the park in Los Angeles, in downtown Los Angeles, is very small. And you've got about maybe 50 squirrels for 15 million people who live around there. A few coyotes. You've got to learn how to feed coyotes. Yes, you have to eat the coyote, but they are not enough for 15 million. Okay. So that's a problem. problem yeah it is a problem but i yeah

but like i said i thought it was a a beautiful movie that weighed all this stuff it is yes it is it definitely is like the what was being talked about at the end which i sort of get obsessed about is that like at the beginning of this conversation where we were talking about you taking a an ancient greek historian and putting it into context to fully understand the possibilities of the times that he is trying to talk about. And that one of the things that I've said before about the Internet is that eventually you may have a generation of kids, if they're not there now, who will just say, you know, like Adolf Hitler, oh, he's the guy with the mustache. And that's all they know. So in terms of contextualizing and honoring history and actually having, like they were talking about at the end, how do you continue to inspire kids to, or young people, to engage

your imagination and contextualize what has happened before them? It has to happened before them. It has to come from them. I cannot play the principal for all of us. So be careful. No, and I do not think that young people will eventually ask the essential questions. Why are we here? What are we doing here? How do we conduct our lives? How do we touch each other? How do we cook for each other? How do we raise children? You believe they will continue to ask those questions?

Yes. It's inevitable. Sure. We are humans. Let's face it. It's a wild time of transition. So that's how you see it, that we're in a transition. Yes, and we do not know how to deal with the instrument well enough.

You see, in the 50s, there was this obsession of cars. Elvis in his car in this big Buick or whatever it was. And drive- in restaurants. And you could do in Las Vegas still, I think you can do a drive in wedding. Yeah. And I have seen a sign in Las Vegas not long ago where there was an advertisement,

drive by divorce. Yeah. You see, but this kind of obsession with cars is a little bit outdated. And we are rethinking our cars and we are trying to have cars

that have a much lower emission of gases, of toxic gases, or we are moving into electric cars so uh we we have started to understand how to use this tool i get it no i understand there's no no drive by divorce anymore right yeah no it's a you gotta you gotta do it the old-fashioned way. But all those technologies require human engagement on a very organic level. That, you know, now there are so many. And obviously, you're not a scientist.

But, I mean, I understand that we're adapting to a new world and a new technology. But so much of it has nothing to do with us in the sense of we don't know anything. No, it all has to do with us uh for example uh gps system yes has to do with fundamental insights into movement and time uh without the uh theory of relativity by einstein we could not have a GPS system. That's right. You see? Yes.

And it is not visible for us and it is not palpable, but we are doing it because we had Einstein. And when you pay your grocery at the cash register, you do not have to go into the mathematical principles that rule the cash register calculation machine.

You don't need to do that. And yet it's a normal thing. You buy certain things and you pay a certain amount and it has been calculated. How it was calculated is uninteresting now. Yes, that's true. It has disappeared. Okay. I mean, I agree with you. I just get nervous when you have the darker elements that you explore. I thought the security analyst guy was great, the one that was not able to give you a lot of information but i thought that was very fascinating that you know that that even securing what is happening you know from

another human being or maybe a group of human beings you have to identify patterns you have to live in this world right where where patterns become suspect and then track patterns i thought that was all uh you know very fascinating. It is and of course it comes right at the time, at the right time for discussion when everybody was into the thing of

hacking the democratic convention emails and there were machinations against Bernie Sanders and so number one, it's not really clear whether it was any of the Russians who in the KGB or the modern form of the KGB would call himself cozy bear. the CIA ever confirmed it. They keep ominously silent. At the same time, we should understand where the massive monumental siphoning of

knowledge, of technologies, of science, of details, secrets of manufacturing is taking place. It's not an individual hacker. It's not the russians i mean everybody does it america certainly does it but there's one player out there that uh siphons off trillions

of dollars of of worth of values yeah and they are still out there and they are still doing it yeah so you name the name i don't know the name i know it and everybody knows it yeah name horse and rider just take a guess among the countries that is siphoning off no trillions of dollars trillions of dollars? Trillions of dollars. Take a guess. China. You pronounce it in a beautiful way. We do not exactly know, but we should assume. So you may have come to a smart conclusion. And ask the professional hackers. That guy was great in the movie.

Mitnick. Mitnick. Yes, Kevin Mitnick. I i love him i love him too uh and uh and of course uh i was asking why do you expose him in the film and give him a platform uh hasn't he done damage actually he hasn't done real damage because he never sold any of the goodies that he hacked yeah he never did it for profit he did it for trophies i love that moment and and besides we have to consider this man has spent five years in federal prison one year in in complete isolation how old was he like 20 he was very young at the time he was very young i mean he was 19 and he was the most famous and most wanted of all hackers.

He was made an example of. And he has been brought to justice. Yes. And I do believe in rehabilitation of a criminal. And by the way, Mitnick today is running a security company that advises you, today is running a security company that advises you how do you protect your company from intrusions and hacking and stealing and siphoning off you know he's good at that he's a very reliable uh businessman now and also the interesting thing in dealing with the human factor was just how how much he knew had to do with his ability to coax information out of people on a human level to get into that.

There were always better hackers. I mean, technically, there were better ones. But he was the one who could bamboozle you out of your wits. Yeah, yeah. And you would give away secrets that you would never give away. He has it in 11 minutes flat. Yes. In 11 minutes, he gets all the secret code of a new Motorola cell phone at the time.

That's an eternal human archetype, the smooth talker. Right? Yeah, no, he has, and he says it very well. He does have the gift of gab. Yeah, yeah. I like this expression now when you make it seems that your output of documentaries in the last decade or so has been a lot and you know you you make a lot of big feature films as well what is more the passion is it just a different approach

do you see them as equal no there's a slightly different approach, although everything is movies for me. And when you poke into the question, I can give you a statistical answer. At the moment, I have four finished films all ready for release. On the 19th of August, it's lo and behold, Reveries of the Connected World. the 19th of August, it's lo and behold, Reveries of the Connected World. In Telluride, very first days of September, a new documentary on volcanoes. A few days later, a feature film, Salt and Fire, which I shot in Bolivia about a mysterious hostage taking. And I also have a big epic feature film out, which is called Queen of the Desert. So two feature films ready for release, two documentaries ready for release. And my next projects are basically all, at the moment, feature film projects.

But it doesn't really matter. Don't start to count and don't go into statistics. No, I was just wondering like in terms of your approach to them and what you can get out of them are there are the feature films are they your scripts both of them or are you just feature films always my own scripts with very rare exceptions so when when like just in the craft of doing both of them what is the essential you know thrill or search when you write a film and direct a film and you have complete control over it, as opposed to when you are putting together footage of interactions?

But I also write, of course, a documentary and I somehow stylize them and I stage them. Like, for example, the appearance of Buddhist monks at the skyline of Chicago and musing about have they all left for, I mean the inhabitants, millions of inhabitants of Chicago for a colony on Mars. Because it looks very lifeless. There's no movement, nothing around. But were they just there or did you put them there?

No. By the way, if they had been just entering their bus, I would have asked them, please can you step out from my camera once more and please do the tweeting that you did before. So that's the nature of my kind of documentaries. I do it for enhancement of a deeper truth. Yes.

Something that's quite beautiful out there and something that connects us to poetry. Yes. I like to take audiences, and I'm speaking now of documentaries, I take them left and right and I take them right into the landscape of sheer illumination and poetry.

Yeah, the poetry. And you see, I claim the right of trespassing if I can take you, the audience, into the landscape of poetry. Yes. I do any form of trespassing easily. Easily, for example, at the end of my film Cave of Forgotten Dreams, which is a film about a Paleolithic cave recently discovered with cave paintings of phenomenal beauty and quality made something like 32,000 years ago. And there's a postscript and the postscript is about mutant albino radioactive crocodiles and i'm going completely wild and the audiences love it and it has to do obviously it is connected to the film loosely it has to do with perception how did humans like us there were Homo sapiens. How did they perceive their paintings? How do we today in the 21st century perceive these paintings?

And how would a crocodile, an albino crocodile in a biotope nearby, in a nuclear reactor, how do they, when they escape and enter the cave, see these paintings? And by the way, as crazy as it may sound, there's this biotope for tourists with hundreds of crocodiles. Five of them escaped last winter, at the beginning of winter. There was a huge hunt, including helicopters searching for them. Somehow, some of them were found in a harvested cornfield,

in a frozen harvested cornfield, and one of them is still at large, unaccounted of. Unaccounted crocodile. So my wildest fantasies are overtaken by something real. Yeah, or prophetic. But the poetry, I read some of the book that you wrote in the early 70s, Of Walking on Ice. Of Walking in Ice.

In Ice, yeah. And that was a fairly astounding poetic achievement, And that was a fairly astounding poetic achievement, just the way you were engaging in the life that you were moving towards. It obviously was in the wake of an ill friend, but it was essentially poetry. Yes, you see it correctly. It was born out of a certain necessity, not just sitting down in front of some empty paper and then starting to write poetry. I was traveling on foot at the beginning of winter from Munich to Paris because my mentor, an old woman, Lotte Eisner, was dying. And I wouldn't allow her to die by just coming on foot. She wouldn't die.

Actually, she was out of hospital when I arrived. And I know that these written texts like Of Walking in Ice and another book, which is very intense, it's called Conquest of the Useless. They will outlive my films. Yeah. Why do you think that? They will outlive my films. Yeah? Why do you think that? Because it's a more direct sort of expression. You only have a pen and paper in between you and what you are in your essence. In filmmaking, there's always finances and organization and technical things, camera and mixing and psychology of actors,

and you just name it. So there are many layers in between. Yeah. And besides, I think there's no one who writes prose as I do today. No, I think that's true. There's no one. True.

And I say that probably in complete misjudgment, but so be it. Why don't you do more of it? I'm asking myself the same question, and some of my best friends tell me so. But I'm doing, I have too many things going on. As I said, I'm producing very fast yes nowadays and i do things that i haven't done so much before i i'm acting for example yeah yeah including including as a real villain in jack reacher yeah yeah do you like it yes because i was good. I was really good in it and I was paid handsomely to be as frightening as it gets. And man, am I frightening. But did you always, I mean, you took a long time to act, having been working with actors forever.

It comes easily to me now. Now, right? Yeah, sure. Why, because you're not self-conscious? No, I think it was always in me in a way. And I always understood actors on a very deep level until I actually understood much of the technical side. There's, of course, there's craft.

Yeah. There's craft in it. Sure. And you can see it when I recently published Master masterclass as a company that does masterclasses. And I watched, just to see how the format functions, I watched two actors, Dustin Hoffman and Kevin Spacey. Yeah. And Dustin Hoffman, more than anyone, speaks about craft. Yes.

And very, very interesting. Yes. He's really good at explaining it yeah and so you learned from him no because i saw it only very recently and i did all my acting yeah before without before i had seen yeah but um very interesting now i now i want to watch it. It's worthwhile because it is more dense, densely packed than any of the other masterclasses that are available out there. But with or without Kraft, having worked for years with Kinski, who you were close with, and many other different actors, do you do agree that some people just have a natural thing for it, right? I mean, there are some people that just belong in that profession. But you should not forget that Kinski was, in a way,

extremely into rehearsing in his early times. He would improve his pronunciation his speech his stage voice his uh ductus of language i mean he was he was fanatically rehearsing yeah yeah and he always denied it no i'm uh i'm a genius fallen out of the skies and nobody's ever been like this before. And when you told him, Klaus, you were wonderful, you were great, he would scream, No, I was not wonderful. I was not great. I was monumental. I was epical.

So that's his answer. But do not forget, for example, great icons in acting like Marilyn Monroe. Yes. It looks, when you look at some like it hot, as if it came with complete ease. came with complete ease. And she, when you look at her professional life, was fanatically rehearsing and training herself. Yes. She was a workhorse of great intensity.

Yeah, and she worked with the method, right? Oh, forget about the method. She only was declined after she was with a method. And Marlon Brando only declined after he had been with a method. So I would see it only with a great amount of doubt. Right. But she was a real, real workhorse. But she was a real, real workhorse.

It's a little bit like when you watch Olympics and you see the swimmers. Yeah. I mean, they swim with great grace. Yes. And fluidity. Yes. And at the same time, it's 10 years of training each day, swimming at least 10 kilometers in training yes not a single day right without 10 kilometers right you got to put the work in yes well in salt and fire you work with michael shannon who i like a lot oh he's the best of his generation yeah you like clearly the best

there's no one like him yeah i love the man. Is it, with him, do you see the work? I see somebody of extraordinary gift and an extraordinary presence. You see presence on screen. In a way, it is inexplicable. There's something mysterious about it. Because not everybody has it, obviously. Some people yes some sort of charisma yeah it comes from somewhere else and we cannot even name it yes that's who and that fits into the poetry yes so when you talk about

um lottie eisner right this was early 70s, and you call her your mentor. So what did you learn from her early on that sort of guided you through your first films and whatnot? No, it's not that she taught me anything. Okay. However, she put me in context with the silent movies of the Weimar epoch, Murnau, Fritz Lang. And then later later it was her encouragement. The encouragement from my first film

on she said there's somebody out there who is extraordinary in her opinion and she was in very close contact with Fritz Lang who lived in Hollywood at that time. Yes. And she wrote letters to him and she said,

Fritz, you have always said, after the barbarism of the Third Reich, of the Nazis, there cannot be real, legitimate, great German cinema again. Never, ever. And she said to him, Fritz, you know what? I send you a print of a film by a young kid who made a film Signs of Life, his

first feature film. And she sent him the print and Fritz Lang saw it and he said, Lotte, you are right. Yes, there's something coming. So it was encouragement. That's an amazing thing. Because at the time, nobody wanted to see my films,

including Aguirre, The Wrath of God. Nobody wanted to see the film. Why? It's, I cannot explain it. I don't know why. Sometimes it happens. It took three, four, five years until the film all of a sudden had its breakthrough.

And do you think that was because of Germany or do you think it was because of you? No, the film was such a novelty in its raw approach and it was not at the horizon of anyone. And sometimes it's very strange how these things happen. I keep thinking about Franz Kafka, the novel The Castle. I think during his lifetime, 32 copies were sold. Right. And we know that at least he himself, out of embarrassment, bought 10 copies himself. Right. So you never know.

Now at the time, was there a community? Like, are you friends with Wim Wenders and Fassbender? Were you contemporaries? Not really friends. We respected each other very deeply. Yeah. But we knew our styles were different. Our subjects were different.

Yeah. We knew our styles were different, our subjects were different. Not like neorealism in Italy after the war, where there was a common style and common social sort of agenda in their movies. But it was considered a movement in a way, right? Was it considered German new cinema? Yeah, let's not argue whether it was a movement no no some some sort of a renaissance but you were around each other you were in in in the same world yes uh but different and we understood we would be perceived as a as a movement yeah which none of us liked sure right did right. Did you like their movies? Not all of them, but yes, sure.

There are very, very fine movies from that time. And you know, when I did Aguirre, the Wrath of God, I took eight prints, I mean 35 millimeter prints, ugly to carry and heavy. I took them to Peru. Yeah. And I rented a theater and I showed them for free. Yeah. And I rented a theater and I showed them for free. Yeah. And it was phenomenal success.

So many people were excited about them. Three of the films were films by Fassbinder, for example. And Fassbinder even didn't know that I took them. And only a year and a half later he said, well, Werner, what is that? You came to my office

and you saw three prints sitting there in the corner and you were the one who took them. You were the one, confess. I said, Rainer Werner, yes, I confess. I took them. I showed them. And you know what? He just came at me with this intimidating look and then he stretched his arms and hugged me very hard and that was it. That's great. He was, yeah. You took them. Yes, of course I took them because they were very, very fine movies and they had to be shown.

Which movies? I don't really recall but one was, I think his second film he made Katzelmacher. Very, very interesting film. Well, we began to talk about Even Dwarfs Started Small, which was, you know, you said darkly funny, which it was, just right away.

Yeah. Because I was trying to look for something in that film that was a portal into something that lasted your entire creative vision do you see that in that movie? Do you see the beginning of something that you've continued to try to resolve or incorporate?

No I don't have a real agenda however I know that I do have a coherent world view and this film lo and behold However, I know that I do have a coherent worldview. And this film, lo and behold, is essentially somehow within my worldview and within my curiosities to expand my worldview. Yes.

And when you see the film, without having any credits, you would notice very quickly, this is a film by me. Of course, as soon as you hear you talk. Even if it were only written captions, you would get the message. But I guess what I saw was that by using dwarves and by using little people, that there was a built-in vulnerability to what was essentially a fairly harrowing story. They do not appear as midgets or as dwarves in the film because the entire world is only little people. Right. Whereas the Cadillac that drives by or the motorcycle or the chairs

or the nuptial bed are of size for us. But all of a sudden, all these daily tools of everyday life become like monsters. Yes. All of a sudden, all these goodies become monstrous. Right. So that kind of moves through. They are the regular size. All the chair, the motorcycle,

everything looks like a monster all of a sudden. Right. And when you went up to the first Volcano movie, you were releasing another Volcano movie? Well, I'm just finishing a film

Into the Inferno. Yes. Which will be shown in three weeks from from now and what was the one that i watched right uh la sufria about a film about a volcano that was about to explode oh yeah in the caribbean right and i went there because i was fascinated by learning that uh there were very very dramatic quick evacuations of the entire island, 75,000 people. And one single poor farmer who lived at the slope of the volcano refused to be evacuated. The guy with the cat. Yes.

And we had to wake him up while we started filming. And deeply philosophical. A very poor black farmer who lived on the slope of the volcano. And we knew it would explode with the force of six, seven, eight atomic bombs Hiroshima size. But you knew you might be there for that too.

In a way, yes. But I was somehow prude. No, that was the only one or two times in my films, in my work, in my working life, I took some sort of blind lottery. Otherwise, I'm a very, very prudent, safety, security oriented person. person yeah and i can read the difficulties and i can read the dangers yes very very well better than others however the moment we were done filming we would flee yeah as far as as fast and as far as we could and we went up on the volcano a second time but only because of a bizarre coincidence. One of the two cinematographers, Ed Lachman, a wonderful, great cinematographer in the industry, he lost his glasses up on the volcano. And I said, Edward, you are so helpless down there

and we can't get you any glasses. You know what? I'm going to return up there and I'm finding them. any glasses you know what i'm gonna i'm gonna return up there and i'm finding them and i said give me your camera and he said now i'll come with you and schmidt reitwein the other cinematographer also came along and once we had reached the summit it was completely changed it was plowed over and uh and uh fissure had opened miles deep and toxic gases coming protruding from it. So there was no

way to find his glasses. But we kept on filming for a while and then fled again. And do you, I got to ask you a couple questions before I, specific ones before I forget them. In Grizzly man

which was primarily assembling right there's no half the film is shot by me right and then oh that's right and then you had a lot of his stuff his uh timothy treadwell's footage yes there's a beat in there that i think changed like that to me was one of the best moments in film for me because it would and i think you must have been aware of it that of course you were but there was that moment where you sort of discuss how these animals are not they don't have personalities per se that they're wild animals not anthropomorphic right that was sort of and then and then quickly qualities and not the Disney World qualities. That's right.

It's being fluffy little creatures that you can cuddle and sing a song to them. Yeah. And then there was at some point, I think shortly after, where you cut to the face of the bear that probably killed him. Yes. And it was impossible as a viewer not to project evil. That because you had established that you can't, and you knew it. I knew it logically. You can't anthropomorphize.

But when I did see that bear's face, my brain could not, it wrestled with it. I'm like that. But do not forget my commentary. In all the faces of all bears that I encountered i do not see any sympathy i do not see any i don't remember exactly there's only the monumental indifference maybe the only interest is interest in food yeah yeah no affinity no affection right no uh hostility right it's just monumental indifference yeah and that's what you see in the face of the bear i put it in the right context you did yes i want to talk about the psa that you did because that that documentary is brutal

the texting and driving yes i don't know how i like that's a i think that's a great little film it is uh i have no doubt and i can quantify it millions of people saw it on youtube yes and it's way too long for youtube youtube is made for the 60 seconds cat videos, crazy cats. Or anything that's over eight minutes long is prohibitive. And here millions and millions saw it. And it has triggered legislation in various states of the United States. And it is being shown now on 40,000 high schools across the United States. 40,000 high schools across the United States. And I think, maybe I'm wrong,

but I think it has become a mandatory viewing for those kids who do that driving test. Driver's license in high school. And many, of course, do it like that. So that could be your... And it has had an enormous, enormous effect. And people tell me you must have saved many, many lives. Instinctively, I know, yes, I did, but you cannot quantify it. You can quantify only events.

You see, you can quantify accidents. You can quantify fatalities, but you cannot quantify events that did not take place right you cannot quantify how many times did you miss the woman of your life because she left the plaza 60 seconds before you arrived you cannot quantify it. However, there's an indirect way to see the effect and that's the statistical curve that has altered its direction. Coinciding with the release of this YouTube video.

It's interesting because on some level, the way you talk about it, it could be one of the most important films you've ever made. It depends on what you call important. In practical terms, yes. Okay. In practical effect, yes.

Yeah. Do you ever think of your films in that way? No. No. No, but in this case, I knew there was a clear goal. Right. And let's perform as good as i can and i would do a public how do you call his service yeah yeah public service but but with all the intensity and all the craft that i can master you see i i do not give a lecture so a

little charity when i give give, I give myself. Yes. And you know who said that? It was Walt Whitman who said that once. Yeah. And I have adopted it. What inspires you, and this will be the end of it, to make a documentary?

I mean, how does it, like, you know, Grizzly Man or this Lo and Behold or the one about the monks as well. I mean, how do you find the topics? Where does it come? Very often they stumble into me. And I have never been like somebody who plans a career. And after I'm finishing a film, I'm looking at the New York Times bestselling list of novels.

Ah, yeah, that one I should make into a movie. It never has happened like this. Very often films have found me. Many times I come as uninvited guests, like the burglars at night. But since I'm a storyteller, I would instantly, instantly know this is big. This is so big, I have to do it.

And it happened exactly like that with Grizzly Man, for example. Do you miss film? Like actual film? Celluloid. No, I'm not nostalgic. I still, I love it. Yeah. Of course I love it yeah of course I love it

yeah but digital filmmaking has allowed me to work faster yeah and to work less expensively so that's why all of a sudden I'm

coming out with four films all of them ready for distribution. The system of distribution is too slow for my output. Right. What did you lose with Celluloid? What do you lose? Well, the kind of magic of the flicker of 24 frames in a theater. And celluloid, you always have to understand it as a layer, a three-dimensional thin layer of emulsion that stores your information.

Whereas a digital film is only a file of zeros and ones. Right. And there's a strange, we sense that there's a different life to it. Right. And also I imagine that the editing process is a bit more decisive. When you are in celluloid, you better come to some conclusions quickly. And what I see today, digital editing, there are directors it and glue it, splice it together and feed it into a system and roll it to the right moment. So I'm editing much, much, much faster. Closer to writing.

Closer to writing in a way, yes. Closer to writing. Closer to writing in a way, yes. Now, just in terms of film, I know that you were close with Roger Ebert and that what was once a fairly sort of, there are a few champions of the cultural and artistic importance of film. Do you feel that it still has the proper place in the world of art?

Do you feel that film is still being reckoned with in the proper way culturally and critically? When he was afflicted by illness and he could not speak anymore he would use the internet and a laptop for creating his voice. It was digitally reconfigured, and it was his voice that would answer to you. So the glory of the Internet. At the same time, he said to me,

Werner, watch out, there's something, I will die soon. You better be vigilant and watch out, and you something, I will die soon. You better be vigilant and watch out and you have to be a guardian. Read, and I said, Roger, of course I read and I keep postulating read, read, read, read, read, but I mean books. And at the same time, he kept saying, kids, young kids should go out and dig a hole in the ground.

Period. And I find it beautiful. God bless his soul. Roger Ebert. That's a nice closer. Thank you, Werner. Thank you. Sweet ending.

What a thrill and what a privilege to talk to Werner Herzog. That movie is really great. Well, you know, if you're a fan of his, you know that his documentaries are always powerful and poetic and disturbing and beautiful. Lo and behold, Reveries of the Connected World in theaters and on demand this Friday, August 19th. Go to WPFpod.com for all that stuff. Okay. Thank you. Fuck it. Boomer lives.

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