WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 739 - Joseph Arthur / Peter Bebergal

Episode Date: September 5, 2016

Joseph Arthur faced some of the same struggles as Marc even though he's a musician and artist, not a comedian. Joseph and Marc talk about the false starts, the friendships with heroes like Lou Reed and Peter Gabriel, and the challenge of feeling okay with how things turned out. Also, author Peter Bebergal talks about magic and music, as he details in his book Season of the Witch: How the Occult Saved Rock and Roll. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! and ACAS Creative. what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics what the fucking avians what's happening i'm mark maron this is my show wtf welcome to it how are you today on the show uh joseph arthur uh the musician songwriter and painter and artist and of all things i don't know where i met joseph but i think i got a record of his from somewhere he did this tribute record to lou reed that i really liked you know and then i listened to some of his from somewhere. He did this tribute record to Lou Reed that I really liked, you know, and then I listened to some of his other music,

and I was like, this is interesting, and somehow we were in touch with each other on Twitter or something. I didn't really know who he was, but, like, he was a fan of this show, and I became a fan of his music, and it was a great, great conversation. I just liked the guy, and I like his work work and he does his own thing and he's been out there a long time and uh it was it was a surprise also on the show today peter biebergall he wrote a book called uh season of the witch how the occult saved rock and roll and i just kept looking at the book i got a lot of books i kept seeing it

sitting over there so you know that's all i'm gonna do a little one with him and then joe arthur uh so it's kind of a nice uh monday labor day show okay so you relax you relax you people look i talked to you the other day about this opportunity i got to be on this television show on netflix called glow a starring role and i'm excited about it there's no reason i shouldn't be excited about it but i'm there's some part of me that underplays a lot of things and also like i didn't it wasn't easy for me to cancel shows. I don't like to cancel shows. It bothers me. I don't like to be disappointed.

Why would I think anyone else would like to be disappointed? I don't expect that you'll be horrendously angry at me. I did reschedule all the shows, but there was part of me. This is an interesting thing. I'm trying to explore this because i want to stay honest around this shit so i can share it with you just about what i'm going through and and maybe somebody can relate to it like for instance i did not feel good canceling shows i made sure we did not cancel any of them outright and we rescheduled them i'm sorry if the time frame didn't work for some of you. And I also understand, again, that I would be disappointed as well. But it was not an easy decision.

I knew I had to take the role because that's a once-in-a-lifetime thing. And as far as I know, I only got one lifetime and I'm very excited about it. But I do know that I had to make a decision that would disappoint some people. But it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. It was easy to the degree that I knew what I had to do. But that doesn't make it easy sitting inside of me. A couple people were disappointed.

I saw that on Twitter. Understand that. Then there were these two people who sent emails to the site. One was crazy. Just like, fuck you. I'm done with you. I was looking forward to seeing you. Now you're just, I thought you were better. And now you're just a narcissistic ass.

You always were. And I'm done with you. I'm erasing you from my mind and life and blah, blah. Just like, just an attack now clearly those were some deeper issues at play but it did hit that one part of me that part of me that's sort of like oh see i upset somebody yeah even though in my mind i know like no one should be that upset and you know i can live without her if that's her decision that you know to be like you know fuck you i'm done okay okay there's nothing i can do about it it's hard for me to to hold that boundary to have that detachment even with this kind of shit maybe

i'm too sensitive that's what i guess i shouldn't be that sensitive but the point being then there was another uh another email from home these are the only two that that were really the only two emails about this and this other woman she just went on and on about how much she admired me how great it was and you know how much she's been loyal to me as a fan and and like you know very impressed with me and then at the end you know because i made this decision to take a lead role in a television show that would was something I really wanted to do and could change my life. And it was an exciting opportunity once in a lifetime

because I did that. Now, whatever feelings she has about me, which leading up to this, we're very grand and nice and supportive, will be permanently tainted like a drop of Clorox in good coffee, she said. You know, again, those are her her issues I don't have to but my point is it triggered the part of me that felt bad for canceling and then I was like oh god damn them why you know why would they be like this and then I

realized like it's deeper than that you know no matter what your decision you kind of want your parents to go like it's okay baby it's a good decision you you know you matter what your decision you kind of want your parents to go like it's okay baby it's a good decision you you know you're doing the right thing it's okay good for you and even when you make a shitty decision you want people to go like yeah that was terrible and and you know i would be mad but i'm not you just want this weird unconditional support and love and that's just not the way life works. But I, you know, I realized that myself, that I fight with that, that, you know, and that's just something you got to accept. Sometimes you got to make these decisions and God knows there was no one's life hanging in the

balance, but some people are going to be disappointed. They didn't need to be abusive, you know, and I'm sort of an easy mark sometimes. And it's weird to have a personality that is sort of as seemingly aggressive as mine and somewhat defined in that way that, you know, I would be. I don't know if it's people pleasing, but I certainly am pretty diplomatic. And I'd rather there not be trouble if that's possible. Could there not be trouble? And look, again again I'm sorry I had to reschedule but I had to reschedule it's just life is like that sometimes and I know some I know as many of you who have been with me a long time and are my fans who are excited about

my success I think there's a few people out there that are excited about it, but somehow feel abandoned. I'm not going anywhere. And there's still some part of me inside that is definitely not succeeding. Does that make you feel better? See how diplomatic I am? There's something inside of me that will never be successful. Does that help? Does that help?

So here's how Peter Bibergal got on the show, kind of. He sent me his book. I think we were in touch on email, and he thought he really liked the book. It was called Season of the Witch, How the Occult Saved Rock and Roll. And I liked the cover. I had it in hardback sitting around, and I had it in paperback sitting around. And then finally I took a look at it, and it was sort of a memoir slash kind of uh basic investigation into the mystical uh kind of witchy elements of rock and roll but it was also

a lot about about peter himself and i liked the guy and then he happened to be coming to la so i said all right let's do it come over so this is uh this is me and peter have a little chat about his book uh season of the witch, How the Occult Saved Rock and Roll. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything.

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The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Roll. You sent me your book.

I think you sent it in paper or or hardback, then paperback. I did send it twice. And you were like, this is a book for you. And I kept looking at the book, and then I read some of the book. Season of the Witch, How the Occult Saved Rock and Roll, and your persistence, which is a key element to ritual. That's right. Repetition.

The repetitive nature of your requests to be on my show worked magic, Peter. How did that happen? How did it happen? You just kept bothering me. I kept seeing the book.

I believed you that it would be something I'm interested in because, you know, I go back with the mystical thinking. I didn't realize at the time

when you sent it to me that you're somewhat of an academic and your approach is thorough. It's not some weird scattershot personal history. I tried. Yeah, get up closer to the mic. It's very easy to turn that kind of stuff into either completely skeptical to the point of dismissing everything or believing there's an occult conspiracy behind the whole record?

Well, I think that the way you approached it, which I think is reasonable, is that the bottom line is that ritual magic has always existed. It has existed in any time there have been humans in groups and communities, some form of ritual magic or some sort of transfer transference on to uh to gods to entities to objects in order to try to find some uh magical consistency in life has always existed yep and sometimes it's just enough because it inspires musicians to want to do something interesting with their music most of the time a lot of what we thought was happening was what the media or the fans imposed on it and the bands love that

you know ate it up yeah because it's an image thing but I like how you start the book by really you know seeking out the source points of rock and roll which is blues which goes back to Africa and there's a several there's a there's nice a bit of writing about the the history of those religions that came up through roll which is blues which goes back to africa and there's a several there's a there's nice a bit of writing about the the history of those religions that came up through africa on into new orleans and then how the religions that became christianized still maintained some of the mythology and talisman and uh even uh uh rhythmic elements of old music. And that was really, there was a mystical element to the foundation of rock and roll.

But even that, especially with the early slave spirituals, is they had to do it in secret because they knew that the slave owners didn't want those elements, which they saw as barbaric, as satanic, to be part of that Christian worship. So even though the slaves accepted the Christian salvation story because it meant liberation from their awful plight,

they still had to incorporate these old, it was just a part of their DNA. So then that becomes what I think is pop music's first rebellious moment yeah and it's a spiritual rebellion it's saying okay we get your christianity but we still have to worship our own way right and that comes up through uh you know the the the first um rock and roll recordings and also what was considered black music at the time. And there was an element of black culture that was mystifying and magical and somewhat evil to white culture. It still is in some areas. But the music was coming up mostly through black performers.

That's right. There's actually, it is also a really interesting moment. moment, I couldn't find the actual source, but there was an early Pentecostal minister at the beginning of the Pentecostal movement who felt that his congregation just didn't have any energy in their prayer. It was very staid and white. Right, yeah. And he said, come on, we can't let the devil keep all this good rhythm. Yeah. He was talking about the black church.

Right, right. So they brought in the gospel, you know, the yelling and the speaking in tongues and all of that stuff. So that's what shifted that. That's what shifted that. And that was the church that Elvis was brought up in,

the Assembly Church of God. Yeah. So he's criticized later by his own church, and he says, but I learned it from you. Right. So let's talk about

the evolution of this, because you're approaching the occult presence in rock and roll, which some of it has a foundation. There were some, after the blues, after early rock and roll, after Little Richard, where do we go? Where does it start becoming a part of rock and roll? Well, LSD. Okay. Right.

So you have these bands, especially from, especially from England that are returning to. Wait, wait, wait. Before we do this. Yeah. The Crossroads is the great mythological. That's right. Heart of the Blues. You saw your soul, the devil. And you were able to track that.

You know, what the possibility and what that myth came from. That's right. So there's a couple of deities, African Yoruban deities, Legba and Ishu, and these are not the devil, but they're trickster. Right. And that's key, right? They're trickster deities. Yeah. And in all the many religions, the trickster, like the fox, Hermes, these are the messengers.

These are how you talk to the gods is through these messenger spirits. And the trickster is kind of duplicitous. Yep. Sometimes a joker. That's right. Sometimes a player of pranks. Yep. That's right.

And misleading. Right. But it's easy to see those horns on its head, right, and transfer that to this is the devil. Right. So that's how that happened. That's how the myth was Christianized in a way and then mythologized through blues music. That's right. So now these gods, Eshu, Legba, become the devil at the crossroads.

But prior to that, this was just an essential part of the African and Yoruban mythology. So Robert Johnson didn't sell his soul to the devil. No. Well, it even turns out maybe it wasn't even Robert Johnson and all that that story came from. Who was it? It is another fellow, Tommy Johnson. Yeah. And it was he had this sort of ghostly voice, falsetto.

Yeah, Robert used that too. Yeah, and so they said that he and his brother had this idea to sort of perpetuate this story. Skip James had the falsetto too. Yes. So you have this, anything in music that felt otherworldly. So they did it on purpose. Yes. So there you go.

There's your beginning. That's right. Exactly, because it creates a mythology. Right. So all of rock right is about the creating of these mythologies and i feel like you know part of my growing up was about interacting with that math mythology through record the album covers what's next the beatles the beatles right paul is dead why has he got no shoes on got no shoes on because you

don't bury somebody with their shoes on. That's what I heard. Then there was if 34. Is that what the license plate said? He would have been 34 if he hadn't died. Right. What about that guy who was standing there? Oh, the Undertaker.

Yeah. Oh, right. Okay. So my brother, who's older than me, seven years older than me, he would play Revolution 9 for me. Oh, boy. I was six, seven years old, and I was terrified. Number nine?

Number nine. Number nine? He played it backwards, turned me on Deadman. Oh, I didn't know that. I Buried Paul. That's one of the- But I Buried Paul is at the end of Strawberry Field. Oh, that's right.

In that weird musical part where if you don't speed it up, it sounds like it sounds like i'm very bored but if you speed it up it's i buried paul it's queer as day yep perfect so my brother would play this for me yeah and i was terrified of it but then when he wasn't home i would play it all by myself you know and then again you add a little little bit later add a little dungeons and dragons to that to that one well just to the whole thing of listening no i get it but like those seemed like those seem like rumors and myths built around the beatles it wasn't necessarily the occult it doesn't seem like the occult bands you know happened a little later right no but it

has to be something underneath that is something that's very, something otherworldly has to be going on. How could Paul both be dead, but be able to be part of this story of his death? I get it. It's kind of like a necromancy of some kind of play. Right. And alongside that is their interest in Eastern mysticism. So all of this, especially at that part of the 60s, was all getting mixed up into this stew. Right?

You get the weirdness of the mythology of the band's lives themselves. Yeah. Then you have their own interest in Eastern mysticism. Mm-hmm. Them taking LSD. Mm-hmm. Is Lucy in the Sky about it or isn't it about it? Yeah.

And there's always under their breath, it's not about it while he drops the acid, right? You know? Right. So you have all this. This is the stew. Yeah. And the counterculture is hungry for it because the war doesn't want to end. Right.

Their parents' church isn't giving them anything. Yeah, and all of it is just blowing to end. Right. Their parents' church isn't giving them anything. Yeah, and all of it, it's just blowing your mind. There's a huge cultural shift. And certainly mysticism and what became New Ageism and what was previously a cult was very popular in all different ways. There were literally magical groups and communities. That's right. That were based in ritual magic. Well, right here you have the source family the process church the process church uh

yeah the the other one the source right what was the other one children of god yep the mansons yep it always takes that dark turn ultimately you know that's the other part of it is you you fuel all this and one the same thing that's interesting about sort of the occult imagination, that I like to call it, and that kind of magical thinking that I know for me personally when I fueled it with stuff like acid, everything just connects to something else. There's no end. There's no final message.

There's just you have to keep digging, and then there's another sign that points to another sign, and another symbol that points to another symbol. Yeah, but that's mystical thinking. have to keep digging. And then there's another sign that points to another sign and another. Yeah, but that's magical. That's mystical thinking. That's magical thinking. That's right. But it turns dark when you're, there's a moment in, did you ever see a magic? When it turns dark is when you believe, when you actually have a moment where you believe it's all connected.

Then it becomes quite overwhelming. And it's impossible not to think that you're a secret agent of some kind that's right am i the only one that knows this yeah exactly exactly then you're in trouble right because then it's and it has been said that it's just as psychotically self-centered to believe that your jesus is to believe you're the devil there's no right right right i always thought that when i got the most psychotic that i was just sort of like uh-oh i've been assigned the job to reveal this yes i i didn't think i was a prophet anything was jesus or the devil i was just sort of like i i'm i'm being privy i'm privy to this information but then the information changed almost immediately when as

soon as you got it no because i did i was a i was a sign reader okay i would see signs but i didn't know what they represented yeah i had that yeah which is you know i think which is what is compelling about about a lot of it whether it's done on purpose or not whether i bury paul is there on purpose or not it's compelling and it starts to create its own narrative that's that is not denied or not confirmed which is a great tool of magic right never deny never confirm so you know but that but the ritual space well you know all this stuff mythologizing and images and and rumors that become myths is one thing but it does seem to me that there were some artists that that actually affected affected and utilized ritual space and magic elements

in order to deliver the goods. Yes. Right? Yep. Who are they? So it gets a little complicated, though, because you have a place at which the music itself becomes the ritual space, which is different from saying, drawing a pentagram on your floor and trying to conjure up.

Yeah, just put that on the cover. That's right. Exactly. So Zeppelin, I think, is a very interesting example because you have somebody, first you have Robert Plant, very interested in the mythology

of ancient Britain, brings all that. That's where you get the loves the Tolkien references. That's, to me, relatively uninteresting. But more tolkien references in zeppelin than the devil sure you know song per song yeah yeah yeah then you have page who is very interested in magic i think in a very deep way yeah cares about it thinks that um stuff like what alistair crowley had to say is important and what's manifested is where I think if

magic is real it's where it really exists it's in that it's in that transmission between the musician and the audience yes right so there's some there's a sacred space that's created yes and we in whatever that moment we're in the show or listening to the music we give over to this thing and it's real right yeah that is that's magic that that's magic music is magic in general right you know just by nature of the space it occupies you know in our minds and in the air and and you know uh yeah like just even the the opening riff of satisfaction being delivered to keith while he was half asleep uh there's something mysterious about that and that's pretty much a pop

song yeah uh you know that doesn't you't really lend itself to occult thinking, although it was sort of calling out corporate culture in a way. Yeah, so it becomes kind of its own, again, it's an act of, what I like to think is that, particularly as it comes to rock and roll, that rock itself becomes a weapon of spiritual rebellion of spiritual rebellion uh-huh right uh-huh and it's often a spiritual rebellion that sees itself in opposition to traditional mainstream judeo-christian norms from the beginning from the very beginning right even when the slaves were singing their version of the of their spiritual it was still, it was in opposition

to the normative, mainstream, white, Christian way of worship. So you're saying it always occupied that space, and on some level, the best rock and roll is something that pushes up against anything mainstream, anything dogmatic, anything, you know, dug in. That's right, and even prior to that, go all the way back to the early avant-garde classical composers. Sure. At every moment, you see these composers, somebody like Ravel, and they were always,

as they were doing this, they were also joining Rosicrucian orders. Sure. Right? were also joining Rosicrucian orders. Sure. Right? And looking also at non-traditional spiritual modes because they needed something that felt like it, spiritually they needed something that felt like it matched

what they were doing musically. But also, you know, I think the gift of that is, and the reason for it is, is that, you know, how do you unleash the possibilities of your imagination? That's exactly, that's it right so the tools of of ritual magic whether it be a a sacred order or or something you know more intimate you know is really sort of like we're doing something you know certainly you know uh transgressive in a way yes something you know alternative and maybe even against the law. Dangerous.

Dangerous. To see where that takes our minds. Right. Exactly. Well, let's talk about the late, great David Bowie because there's been a lot of speculation about the arc of his career and his characters and his different manifestations as being very conscious acts of ritual magic. Yes.

What do you think? You're now the spokesperson. Yes. The author of Season of the Witch, How the Occult Saved Rock and Roll. Tell me about the life of David Bowie and all his character manifestations and what they were servicing. So I think, and this sounds like a little bit of rock and roll hyperbole but i think that he really was the true rock magician because he so there's an interesting

thing there's a definition of magic that crowley says crowley crowley yeah it says you know magic is the art and science of of changing of causing change in accordance with your will. Right. And a little bit later, this woman, Dee Unfortune, said, actually, it's causing a change in consciousness to occur in accordance with the will. And so I see Bowie as somebody who at every turn actually was changing his consciousness through these different personas, fully inhabiting them, and all along the way using the sort of mythologies of various magic. I mean,

he even went so far as to become interested in sort of the weird Nazi occult, you know, And he saw that as also a place where populism becomes its own kind of theater, which becomes its own kind of ritual change in the public consciousness. Well, yeah. Well, Hitler was very aware of that. Exactly. And it enabled him to manifest his will to horrible ends. That's right. And so a lot of people would retroactively say that, and I don't know. Well, that was the whole Raiders of the Lost Ark.

That's the whole Raiders of the Lost Ark, exactly. And so Bowie would look back on that later and be wholly ashamed that he embraced the kind of slightly fascist. Yeah. And he said it was the cocaine and just not thinking it through. Well, no, he applied his intelligence to dark matter because when you're jacked on drugs and in a psychotic state and have a lot of money, you're going to turn to the darkness. That's right.

Exactly. So, I mean, think about it even as, go back to any of these guys. They were young. Uh-huh. A lot of them grew up poor. Suddenly, you have more money than you know what to do with. Uh-huh.

You know? And a lot of them died. Exactly. With their dumb games. That's right. One of the things that I found out later about Bowie after he died

that just made me feel so good was that he, later in his life, he loved being sober yeah he loved his sobriety yeah well yeah i think he became a very sort of uh uh he was always elegant but he became a very sophisticated i think moral and uh and uh polite english gentleman that's right exactly so so as you move through all this stuff, the conclusion is that rock and roll is magic and that it's magic because of almost the very nature of what magic is, which is an opposition to established norms. That's right. It's also what we need it to be.

So there's a lot that we as fans and critics and media impose on it. We want to say, there was somebody who wrote that Mick Jagger was the most evil man alive, that he was the devil personified. Yeah, I remember. But he saw himself as the trickster, not as Satan. Right, well, he is, yeah. Yeah, but he liked that. I'll buy it. trickster not as satan right well he is yeah yeah but he liked by it he brought all that on to

himself partly because he liked the attention that came as part of embracing that as you know let me and it's funny her satanic majesty is not a great record it's not a great record nope the lantern's a pretty good song yeah yeah uh and then you get like later as we move into you know what really becomes defined as satanic rock that's a fucking joke like it's weird because like american satanism and satanism satanism in general as a specific uh ideology and practice was really a a huckster job yeah i mean you know how satan figures into other magical systems or the beast or belzebub or whoever whatever its manifestation is was usually part of a broader system right yeah so then when you know anton levee summons this fucking you know ridiculous bit of business

which is you know yeah just a gutting of crowley and everything else and it's basically just sort do what you want yeah it's about it's a liberation it's a libertarian theology yeah yeah that's right yeah but it's sort of like it's it's half baked in a way yeah right yeah i mean i think so because and i have to say i don't want to me you know you want to trivialize satanism yeah i don't trivialize satanism but like the church of satan thing you know the current that's doing all these things with trying to get the Baphomet statues put up. I kind of wish it was like a real Wiccan pagan group that was doing it. Right. Or even the local Hindu temple.

I wish they were the ones that were asking for a statue of Shiva. Shiva, yeah. You know? Yeah. Because there's context. There's context. They ask these guys, they say, we don't believe in anything. We're atheists.

Yeah. So why do you want a religious statue up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know. They're trolls. Pranksters. They're great at it. Yeah.

There's no doubt in their making. They're really showing, I think, fundamentalism, what at its core is problematic. Right. It's just a direct opposition. It's a reaction. That's right. It's not a system in a way. That's right.

It's a reaction. Like punk rock would fall in the same. Punk rock, for the most part, is not magic per se, but a reaction, an in a way that's right it's a reaction like punk rock is it would fall in the same way punk rock for the most part is not magic per se but a reaction an aggressive reaction that's right right yeah yeah so so um i just want to say on the record that i'm fine with magic i'm okay with the uh some of the darker elements of magic that don't hurt people and i'm okay with the darker elements of magic that have that have delivered us some of the best music in the world, I'm okay with it. Yeah. I'm on board.

Yep. I'm a member of the magical circle. There's a story that I write about in the book. When Zeppelin was recording Three, they asked the engineer Terryry manning page went up to him and he said i want you to take this quote do what that will and i want you to etch it into the inner groove and man he said i can't do that it's gonna wreck i you know and he said i need you to do it because we have to get crowley's message out to the world yeah so manning hum him. He said it was a very precarious thing, getting the master in a way

that he could get down above it, etch it in. He said it was maybe 20, 30 years later, Terry Manning was watching cable TV and he flipped through, it was a 700 club. And the minister held up the album. Yeah.

Zealot Zeppelin III. Yeah. The devil in music. Right here, close-up camera, there's the inner thing. And Manning looked and he said to himself, I did that. You know? But it was only on one pressing, right? Is it hard to find?

I think you can get it. I think you can get it. On an old Zeppelin III, like right between the last song and the label. Exactly. Exactly. That's smooth. And remember later, punk bands would always write little messages in there. There's a lot of stuff written in there.

Yeah, it was always fun trying to look for those. Yeah. Now we got to go look at my old Zeppelin III. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. And see if it's there. That would be good. Well, so you cover a lot in the book.

Yeah. And see if it's there. That would be good. Well, so, you know, you cover a lot in the book. And you threaded through a sort of memoir. Yep. Of your own sort of musical enlightenment. Yep. And how's the book doing?

Is it magic? Pretty good. You know, you always, it's like you think people buy books, but then you always want them to buy more. Yeah. You know? Yeah. The book I did before this sold 50 copies. Yeah.

Which one was that? Too Much to Dream. Psychedelic American Boyhood. Uh-huh. That was my memoir of my lapsed youth. Uh-huh. So now you tightened it up. Tightened it up.

Got outside of myself. Good, man. Well, it was good talking to you, buddy. Thanks very much. That was Peter Bibergall. Nice guy guy i like the book season of the witch how the occult saved rock and roll all right so now what now let's talk to joseph arthur he's got a new record out the most recent one is called the family i'm also a fan of some of his other records i i also i really liked his tribute to

Lou Reed, mostly acoustic renditions of Lou Reed music. And it was fun to meet him and hang out because we, he's just one of those guys where you're like, oh, we're kind of, we got a thing. We got something in common, something, there's something, we know each other from another life or something. This is me and Joseph Arthur. You live in a garage in Redford. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, not officially. It's like live workspace, yeah.

I mean... Is this a sad story, Joseph, or is it a nice garage? It's... Well, I heard you recently call this place magical. And you said that you really have come to believe that it's magical. You got to. And I have come to believe, and I don't know, I identify with you, Mark. I feel it. I do, I identify. And I also think that my garage is magical.

It's just on a different coast. Well, the thing about spaces in general, I think especially with music, that they do take on, they are part of it. They are part, like whether you can identify it or not when you listen to the music, but that room is that room, and the music's only going to sound like it sounds in that room. They do have that element, right? Yeah, I think so, yeah.

And a lot of times the greatest studios are just pretty underwhelming spaces. Yeah, like Muscle Shoals. Yeah, they're just a room. But I usually always think of it as it's down to sort of supernatural. Yeah? Like, yeah, that there it as, like, it's down to, like, sort of supernatural. Yeah? Like, yeah, that there's spirits or something. Do you? Yeah, I go that way.

I don't know if I believe it or not, but I tend to. I have gone that way in my life. Yeah. But then I have to identify the beings and, you know, what kind of spirits. Right. And, like, you know, why were they sent here? What do they want from me right are they gonna turn on me right yeah like i if i'm gonna deal with spirits

define spirits there's always a chance that they'll start fucking with you the wrong way that's true they often do right they often do fuck with you the wrong way on purpose yeah and i you know see if you believe that I guess it lets you off the hook to a degree. Yeah. But I could also just believe that there's a coziness or something. Like I could probably, like I used to be a lot more mystical in my thinking before I met somebody who was a, you know, like a guy who,

like if you look at, what's the math word I want? The odds of something happening uh-huh do you know like if you really look at if you break down a situation like why the fuck did i just run into that guy right in my neighborhood yeah like if you really break down what is your circle of life right and you know what i mean yeah yeah it kind of takes a little bit of the poetry out of it i'm not or puts it in i mean mean, I'm alive because of alcoholism. I mean, my parents met in a bar. Really?

Yeah. So I can't be too mad at alcoholism. Which one was an alcoholic? Well, I mean, my dad's got some issues with that. He's sober, though. Oh, he got sober? Like, for real? Yeah, he's sober, yeah.

Like, program sober? Yeah, he got program sober, yeah. program sober yeah no kidding yeah how long he's been sober a long long time that's fucking good yeah yeah yeah a long time did you grow up in it i did grow up in it damn we're going there quick we were talking about mystical ghosts and stuff and now we're like in my family you are a sensei yeah wait a minute well the new record like yeah i know it's not about your family per se but you know there there's a few of your albums that are narratively driven so you are a storyteller oh thank you thank you for saying that i um but i was getting the the reason i'm alive because alcoholism was the alcoholism of my mother's, at the time, roommate, who was, like, prodding her.

Once removed. Yeah, like, this was years and years, obviously years and years ago before I was born. But, like, so, yeah, she made my mom take her to the bar, and that's where my mom and dad met. They wouldn't have met outside of that. Where was it? My mom's from West Virginia. Yeah.

And my dad's from Akron, Ohio. I'm from Akron, Ohio. Akron, Ohio. Earthquaker Devices, uh you know shout out to them they're all there they're all there you know them yeah well yeah you're well you're a you're you're a pedal guy a pedal guy yeah yeah sometimes yeah you'll layer the sound that's true yeah you got brothers and sisters i got a sister older sister'd she do? Two and a half years older. She is a painter, and she raises two kids.

Painter, huh? Yeah. How old are you, if you mind me asking? I don't mind. I'm 44. Okay, I'm 52. Yeah. 44.

44. So you're growing up in Akron. Uh-huh, in the 70s. In the 70s. Well, yeah. Late 70s. Right. right yeah so what kind of like when did you start doing the music well my sister I guess there was a piano that suddenly she's older yeah so then she was interested in piano lessons and then so I kind of like just

got swept up into that and I hated that but you know, it's funny because I got into Jaco Pastorius. I got into bass and- What do you mean? Jaco Pastorius and you did that interview- With Flea and Robert Trujillo. Which was great. Did you watch that documentary? Sure I did, yeah.

It was wonderful. Did you like it? Well, I'm a huge Jaco Pastorius nut job. I love it. Are you really? Yeah, I ripped all the frets out of my Fender Precision bass. I wanted to be a jazz fusion bass player. Like, that's what I...

I was in this band called Frankie Star and Chill Factor when I was in high school. And it was a fusion band? It was a blues band, and we opened up for, like, Stevie Ray Vaughan a couple times. Really? We played, like, five nights a week. And you were playing bass?

And I was playing bass. So you were like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like... And funk stuff, too. Yeah, yeah. And we were good. I mean, I'd make, like, a lot of money. I probably made more money then than now, but, yeah. Just like... And funk stuff too. Yeah, yeah. And we were good. I mean, I'd make like a lot of money.

I probably made more money then than now, but you know. Playing in a blues band. Playing in a blues band. Playing in bars. Yeah, playing in bars. I could have kept doing it. I mean, and then... How old were you?

This was like 11th and 12th grade in high school. So I'm like 17. So you're playing out. I was playing five nights a week. Not guitar though. Not guitar, bass. Yeah. All bass. And I didn't sing until I was like 21. 17 and then you're playing out i was playing five nights a week not guitar though not guitar bass yeah yeah all day and i didn't sing until i was like 21 i didn't even i was gonna be a jazzer you know that's weird so but did you study jazz it's not completely weird it kind of makes sense

because like yeah i can't wrap my brain around you know fusion and enjoying it like i can that makes a lot of sense i can see jaco is a great bass player i understand that and i get and i feel that way too to a degree yeah i like you know i like yeah that's why i do what i do i like songs and yeah hooks right repetition and blues and stuff yeah and i like the blues like fusion just sort of like there's something cheesy about keyboard sometimes that i can't quite get past even even if it's fucking Chick Corea. Right. Or even if it's that dude, that crazy alpha dude in Weather Report that made Jocko's life so difficult.

I know. Joe Zawenfall. Yeah. Joe Zawenfall. Is that his name? Yeah. That was an interesting. Yeah.

He seemed like a real terror, that guy. Yeah. And I know he's a great player, but there's just something about, I mean, like, look. look you know how us artists are we have egos and freak out and insecurities oh yeah we're disaster we're disaster most of the good ones are but like i can listen to miles like when he shifted that i was gonna say a good window into like enjoying fusion yeah he asked me is a bitch's brew yeah i can listen to that i mean that's like yeah that's like mystical going back to ghosts in garages that's like mystical music no i think so too i mean i like the one i listen to a lot for some reason or is the jack johnson record which is really kind of stripped down man i don't really know that one that well yeah i guess it was done as a soundtrack

for a movie about jack johnson and i actually have uh someone turned me on to like the full studio session so i have all that shit but i have um but i have the record yeah it's really lean and it's like it's it's like apparently he told john mclaughlin to pretend like he didn't know how to play guitar that's amazing and i love stuff like that yeah yeah like anytime like there's just like that opening be creative be free and also be free to be as sort of bad as you want to be yeah if you give yourself permission to not be great yeah that's a big i mean and that's like huge in what you do just going out and sure you know because you know yeah you gotta take the risk material like what if you go up there and. What if you do?

What if you fail? Yeah. In that context. You try not to fail in front of too many people. Right. But like, if you're working on shit, you got to work on shit. Do you ever fail? Like, when you go up there and like.

Yeah. You like walk with a loss. Or do you redeem it and then walk away and know that something failed? It's more embarrassing. Right. Than a loss. Like, I know when things don't hit. And, you know, depending on where I'm doing it, I can usually counter that by acknowledging it.

Right. That's what I always do. I always acknowledge the awkwardness. Right. And then that's like, yeah. Yeah, it's better. It's better. But, like, in the big world of professionalism, it does imply a certain inconsistency in your ability to do the job. I guess so.

People could look at it that way. Yeah, I like that Joe Arthur, but he fucks up a lot of songs and he kind of talks about it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, but it's all right. Yeah. But I think that is true about creativity, that you have to not be afraid to fail. Like with guitar, it took me a long time to realize. The only reason I never really committed to it in a real way is I don't like learning songs.

And I sort of just like, I think I'm a pretty good player, but I never thought I compared to real players. But in the last few years, I sort of just realized, what the fuck does that even mean? And who does? Yeah, but what does that even mean and who does yeah but what does that mean like yeah in rock and roll really right i mean there's some bad players arguably some of the best players that we know are not that great right i'm talking about technical level yeah it doesn't but that's what i compare myself to it's like i don't know my scales i don't know how to noodle i can't just you know listen to songs and know them and i don't like learning

songs well i don't like learning songs either which is why that's why I started writing songs really yeah there was like the people in like there was that talented kid in everybody's high school who could just hear the song and play the thing on piano like I remember the guy like right like Mike Garcia could play uh uh Van Halen's eruption right I'm like fuck it there's that guy in every high school, and I was not him. And what would invariably happen, I'd start trying to figure something out, and then I would just start drifting away with this new progression, and then start singing something, or do something, or make something up out of it. I used to just compose.

But I wonder why the thing with comedians and musicians, how so many really good comedians are really good musicians. Are they really good? This is the question. Some of them are, yeah. They could be putting out records. When you think of the Flight of the Conchords, they made those kind of thing, and then Mighty Bush or whatever and stuff like that.

And then Jimmy Fallon is, yeah, he can play pretty good. He's talented but I always think like, the only difference is for some reason,

comedians can't do it without irony. That's the, that's the thing. Well, if you're a comic and you have musical talent, it really becomes

this sort of like, how do you integrate it into your act without being stupid? Right. Like, or hacky. Or,

but why can't a comedian then be also a serious musician where this is not ironic and not funny i don't think they can't i i just like that like is there any case of that well we might we might respect music too much i think well i think you do that a little bit i mean i think you're like um sort of doing that like if i play like i really want to play with other people right but i i don't want to make a big deal of it i don't want to have a goal in mind i would just like to collaborate on that level because i don't really know how and every time i've done it just on nights where brendan small has some dudes like uh i do it i like it yeah it's just something i have to integrate in my life you find the guys you make a schedule you get a space and go fuck off for a while yeah

i play on the podcast because like i just like the sound of it in my head and i like fucking with this stuff and i like mike and the amp and i just like i don't put any real effort into it and like a lot of times i'm just making it up as i go along yeah and i i don't know why it's a nice way to like conclude things yeah i like it i mean i've been listening to the podcast since before you did that right and i like it oh thanks yeah but let's get back to you in ohio okay so you're playing in a blues band yeah you want to be jocko you rip the frets out yeah you want to do fusion i want to do fusion yeah well or i wanted to yeah i don't know yeah stanley clark and jocko were kind of my heroes oh yeah i remember stanley clark's band well you know what I liked about the Jocko documentary was that it just, it sort of,

because I just loved him as a kid, and then, you know, you get new heroes, and you come up, and you do other things, and stuff like that. But it just reminded me of that sort of part of just music for the sake of it, or just art, like just art, not thinking about it in terms of a commodity, but just being an artist, just how much of a gift that actually is. And the heartbreaking way he sort of lost it. Did you think that way always? I mean, were you thinking that way as a young person, that this is a gift?

Or that it's not a commodity necessarily? I never really thought money uh until like i got into my 40s i like i'm late i'm a late comer to think to being financially concerned not not because i haven't needed to be yeah i've never been rich or anything but just uh yeah i don't i mean i think something happens when you click into the 40s and you're yeah and you don't know if you're gonna have enough money yeah you're like to ride it out yeah well i mean like how do i ride it out you went through that so i identify that with that too like yeah yeah and then this whole thing kind of like blossomed for you in a big way so yeah well i think it's

interesting that our career paths are similar in that we keep trying yeah i mean that's what i figure it's like and as long as you're not bitter that's the main thing like is just not being bitter you know and and the and the way i'm a lot of times people come up to me be like you should be so much bigger than you are i don't understand it and i you know it used to like i used to yeah get into that and then get feel bad and now i'm just like you know what there is no should in pop culture pop culture is this cold thing that doesn't care, and it doesn't have anything personally against you. Yeah, the cream doesn't rise to the top, usually the curdled part. Yeah.

I don't know. It helps to not be bitter, you know? Yeah, well, is that something you had to work on? Of course. I mean, every day. I'm bitter as hell right now. I want to jump over the table and start, like, fighting. What? What did I do? No, I don't know. What did I do? I'm just kidding. I'm bitter as hell right now. I want to jump over the table and start like fighting. What?

What did I do? No, I don't know. What did I do? I'm just kidding. I got lucky. I'm on your team, you know? But okay, so you're doing, when do you start sort of defining your sound? Because one thing is that you do have definite sound.

I didn't really know who you were until I think you reached out to me maybe personally. sound I didn't really know who you were until I think you reached out to me maybe personally but but I got that the like what I remember really listening to was the Lou Reed tribute album oh right and like it came from somewhere I guess somebody sent it to me because you wanted them to but like I was a big Lou Reed fan and I really appreciated the earnest approach yeah sort of honoring those songs yeah and I and I didn't really know who you were, but then I'm like, well, he must be a guy. You tweeted. That's why I reached out, because I was like a fan already.

So, but I didn't, you know, and I didn't think you, and you tweeted, and I was like, holy shit. Right. Well, because I was like, you know, I listen to a lot of records that come through. Yeah. And I get a lot of records.

Yeah. And some things grab you and some things don't. So, like, listening to the Lou thing, thing, because like how do you do those songs? And you did them sort of differently than your records. I mean, they were stripped down. Right. They were almost all acoustic versions, basically. Yeah, it's a trip.

I start a lot of records wanting to make something really stripped down. Yeah. And that record in particular was not even my idea. It was a guy named Bill Bentleyley who's um a really great guy anr guy yeah vanguard at the time and he it was his idea for me to do that and i just yeah i realized it would be kind of a weird thing to do and i just thought well i'll just try something very simple and i did this sort of brian eno set limitations thing which was just like i'm gonna just do this all acoustic instruments and just use microphones.

And so I did an acoustic bass, acoustic piano, acoustic guitar. I just made it all acoustic and kept it really simple. And it just worked out. It just sounded how it sounded and they liked it. Well, what's interesting about it is that, you know, when you do a song that is so sort of elevated, I think you did Satellite of Love on there, right? Uh-huh. That was one of my favorite Lou Reed songs.

And you take it down to that. You take it down to the basics and just the poetry of Lou. It's interesting that it sort of becomes a different song. Right. But yet the words are enough to sort to sort of keep it high it's elevated yeah and i think you must have had a lot of respect for that guy oh yeah a tremendous amount yeah i knew you have a relationship with him i knew him yeah um well i got because i got signed to peter gabriel's label i went from akron i went i moved to at to Atlanta randomly I just wait so now okay so so we're talking about

late 90s and late 90s yeah and like you're in Akron are you playing out as your own thing and by the time late 90s happened I was in I was in New York so um I left Akron in 90 I graduated high school in 90 I went to the same high school as the Black Keys as well and you know those guys no they're younger they're younger Chris he's's older chrissy's older yeah yeah it's definitely uh like a like a rust belt rock and roll town yeah there's something about it yeah and and you know that secret society comes from there too which one oh yeah that's right the one that shall remain nameless dr bob and bill that's right you can go to the headquarters the thing i went to the headquarters i mean somebody i I went to the headquarters.

I mean, somebody I know went to the headquarters. The pilgrimage. Yeah. Well, yeah. I grew up near the headquarters. Oh, that's great. That's great. Yeah.

American geniuses, those two. Yeah. So, okay. So you go to New York. What's the plan? Then I went to Atlanta. Wait. When did you go to Atlanta?

Before New York? After high school. Okay. Why Atlanta? Because there was this band going, and it to Atlanta and then I left. Wait, when did you go to Atlanta? Before New York? After high school. Okay. Why Atlanta? Because there was this band going and it was four days after I graduated high school and I wasn't going to go to college and I just was like, okay, let's go.

And I left. Your band? Well, yeah, it was a band I was in. Which one? Not the blues band? They were called Tenzen Men. Tenzen Men? Yeah.

And what kind of music was that? We played like funk rock. I did a lot of slapping and popping on the bass you're still a bass player so you would have loved it in other words it's the kind of music you would have listened to all the time well i like i like the i like those chili peppers no yes i like but please like calm down on the slapping and popping i i like the chili peppers too i do i do too yeah anyway so you're swapping and popping and you go to atlanta go to atlanta and then i and then i'm working all kinds of jobs and my last job's at clark music which is

a guitar shop i sold guitars we sold fender guitars and little music store yeah little music store i'm constantly on you know it nope oh anyway it turned into a pawn shop and then i don't yeah and then i um yeah something hit me when i was around 21 where i was like you know if i don't know yeah and then i um yeah something hit me when i was around 21 where i was like you know if i don't play like crazy busy bass lines all the time i could maybe just like think about melody and uh lyrics yeah and so i started just playing more acoustic guitar and i made a a demo like of that stuff and and gave it to a friend in that um mysterious program yeah she'll remain nameless, I guess. Are you in it?

I mean, I think so. Okay. You know, I don't know. I have a funny relationship with it. But you don't drink? I'm not drinking now. Yeah. Market's rough.

Yeah. No, I quit drinking again. Okay, good. Or, yeah. All right. Well. I got the issues. If you say you quit drinking again, you need to quit drinking. Yeah. Like, you know. That's one way. Yeah. You know, if anyone says, I. All right. I got the issues. If you say you quit drinking again, you need to quit drinking.

Yeah. Like, you know, like- That's one way. Yeah. You know, if anyone says, I got to quit, you got to quit. Or the other one I like is, if you ever wonder, do you have a drinking problem? You do. Exactly.

That's it. Right. But, so then, yeah. And then that demo tape randomly got to Peter Gabriel. Just you on acoustic? Well, it was, no, it was a little, Well, it was a little bit of jape on there. Jape? Yeah.

What's that? I need that word. Jape. It's like if we were joking, I'd say, quit japing me. Oh, okay. Jape, like it's an old word. Yeah, for bells and whistles? Yeah.

Is that what it is maybe i think you could yeah you could it could be that what are you referring to exactly when i'm saying jape i mean like fake drums and you know okay all right yeah right but you like that shit oh yeah oh i do like that shit yeah we disagree on the cheesiness of synthesizers no no i like i like your aesthetic but i i also like a cheesy synthesizer thrown in to like offset that i love that i've got some like i've heard synthesizers that i like okay but like at that time when they were sort of new right oh i got no i get you yeah when you know when you know people are soloing on them oh right if they're a texture, fine. So, all right, so your acoustically japed demo.

Yeah, it got to Peter Gabriel. Who at this time, what is it, 96? This is like, yeah, this is like, yeah, 94 probably. 94. 94, 95, yeah. So Peter's a pretty big deal. He's a big deal, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Unique sound. No one sounds like Peter Gabriel. Right. Like he's got his thing. Well, it was such an interesting, weird world for me to kind of go into. Because here I go for this weird fusion thing. Like I was already off.

Like I meet people now that are like, oh, yeah, when I was 14, I started listening to Bob Dylan and the Beatles and all this and learning how to write those songs. I'm like, man, I went about it the whole wrong way. But Peter ended up bringing Lou Reed to my audition for a real, like, to the- So you send this demo in, and then all of a sudden, like,

you go to New York for the audition? I kinda, yeah. My best friend, Jeremy, was living there. And so I was kind of starting to head into New York. I've been a New Yorker now for like over 20 years. So, yeah, and then so I went there, and then, yeah, Peter brought Lute. It was this little club called The Fez.

I know. The Fez was downstairs at time. You probably played it. Yeah, time. It wasn't that little. Right. It was a couple hundred. Yeah, a couple hundred.

And it was nice. It was in a basement. It was a nice stage situation. Yeah. Yeah, the stage guys. You could feel the train. You could hear the... Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. They started Stella there. You know, Michael, Ian Black, David Wayne, and Michael Showalter started their show, Stella, at Fez. So it was actually a comedy venue when that show was there. Oh. But, so, all right, so what's the outfit? What do you,

how many people are you on stage with? I was by myself and I was an acoustic guitar and I was like being a singer-songwriter straight up. Like,

and I was just faking. I was like, what in the heck? Like, what? Yeah, I guess I can cuss on this. I always think it's funny

when people say, can I cuss? Yeah, yeah. But I just had that same instinct. Yeah. You've done some radio in your day.

Yeah. And you gotta watch it. Yeah, like, what the heck is going on here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but, and then I just, I just had that same instinct. You've done some radio in your day. Yeah. And you've got to watch it. Yeah, like, what the heck is going on here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but it was like an out-of-body experience. I just played my songs. I have no idea if I was any good or not. And then I walked right up to Lou, who was like...

I mean, at that point, I was a huge Lou Reed fan, too. And I was just like, hey. That's good. I like the song King of Hide and Seek. And I don't have a song called King of Hide and seek but there is a lyric of that right that is a better about it yeah i was like that is a better title than what i was calling that and then we went out to eat and we're you and peter gabriel you and me peter gabriel and lou holy shit and you're like 21 i was like yeah like 24 oh wow and dolly parton was sitting like

in the booth next to us get the fuck out of here and they were starstruck by dolly parton more than the other way around well and then i found out sorry where was that she was originally the one he wanted to sing don't give up what kate bush sang the oh who uh dolly parton yeah wanted peter gabriel wanted her peter gabriel wanted dolly parton yeah yeah originally so so where were you eating that was just right uh next door there was a restaurant next door i actually don't really remember the name of it but i remember it as being like a block away and i remember walking with lou and some guy coming up and saying something and lou just sort of you know shielding shielding, shielding, you know, you know, acknowledging and shielding.

But I just remembered thinking, wow. Cause it was like my first, you know, like entree into like being on that side of things. Well, yeah. With a guy like Lou, when you've created in your lifetime, an army of freaks and weirdos. Yeah. You somehow have to protect yourself against what you've created.

Yeah. I think he, you know, he was out and about a lot. Oh, no. Even in later life. New York guy. He was a New York guy. And so if somebody has a story where, oh, Lou was rude, it's like, well, what do you want? Yeah, no, of course.

Well, you would be too. I love Lou. I was listening to Lou yesterday. Yeah, I love Lou too. But I like that you had this experience with like he was like a west side guy the west side like me packing district right he lived over there yeah i think he's pretty visible walking his little doggie i think sometimes yeah yeah but uh so so you go to dinner with these two and went to dinner and then yeah then yeah and that lou was telling me talking

to me about um publishing and stuff like that and what not to do and don't sign this and and uh what's peter doing and peter though was like oh we're actually offering my publishing deal too oh yeah so it was like so this was your deal pitch yeah i mean this was like we want you to record it was crazy it was for it was a lot like you know just kind of like i mean when you when i think about it now it just seems seems crazy. He had this studio in England called Real World Studios. It's in Box, England, which is like 10 minutes outside of Bath. Okay. And he had this thing called Recording Week,

which was like all these musicians and producers and stuff, like Joe Strummer came. Yeah. And like Brian Eno. You met those guys? I met those guys. Yeah, I met Joe. You met Eno?

Yeah, I ate dinner with Eno. You did? Yeah. What was that like, man? Well, Marcus Straves produced my first record. Actually, Brian Eno sang on my first record. Really? Yeah, Brian Eno and Peter Gabriel are singing on the song called Mercedes from my first record.

I think it was told to me that it's the only song they both synced on together. Ever? Ever. That's what I heard. What the fuck is Brian Eno like, dude? Well, I mean, I don't, I mean, you know as well as I do. I mean, he was a nice guy. Okay.

You know, but like, I mean, we didn't connect on a deep personal level. He's like, talk about mystic. Right, yeah. His influence on fucking music and then coming like you move through like you know he used to cite the velvet underground as his favorite band well his the way he did this is something i still use is is what he the way he's saying on my record and i do this all the time now too when people ask me to like guess on their things yeah i don't want

to hear it i just i don't want to hear it no might like, I don't want to hear it. No mic, like just get, make sure the mic is on and recording. Yeah. And then my first instinct is what we're going to record. Uh-huh. And that's what he did. Oh, really? And it's great. That's a great technique because you just trick yourself into doing something pretty

cool that you would never. And then you don't second guess it. Yeah. And then you can develop it, of course, but sometimes. What, you mean develop it on the board? Well, develop the idea. Oh, you're saying, so you go with instinct first, and then you're like, we nailed something with that,

but let's work it. Maybe it's magical, and you don't need to do anything to it. I just like the way he layers sound. Yeah. And he's got... I hear that in you, but it's weird. I hear some of that layering, but I also hear Bruce Springsteen in your shit sometimes.

Yeah. I don't know why. That's cool. Yeah, I'll take that. There's something like earnest and like, you know, this song means business. Right. And I'm telling a story.

Yeah. It's a tough line, the earnest versus not, because it's funny because I've been like in the studio the last like three, my garage is also the studio. Sure. You can call it. Can I call it whatever I want? Yeah. I've been in the studio. you can call you can call it can i call it whatever i want yeah i've been in the studio yeah and then i just go over to my bed aka the bed yeah

um and uh well yeah because it was this trump song i'm working on and just that whole thing about earnestness versus not yeah you know because you like something can be pedantic or you know yeah but what happens so you get this deal like something can be pedantic or you know yeah but what happens so you get this deal like this is what's interesting to me is that you know you're you you you got this gig right you got the deal on a set of acoustic songs right and that first record is is pretty layered and and well produced yeah so you are are now at school almost i was at school that's exactly right man and it was the strangest school for me because my whole philosophy was you know is the sort of like well you got the

first thought best thought and then leonard cohen says second thought best thought or at least that's been attributed to him right which i think is cool but you know and peter is this peter gabriel makes these was making these records and taking five years, six years, and lots of people working on them. 20 different groove ideas for a song. So just this real meticulous way of going about it, this real sort of, not that it's not coming from the gut, because Peter is a groove person and stuff like that. But it is a lot up here, too.

So it was just opposite of where I was heading in my own way I was probably going to be like more just like let's make a garage record right like that sure you know but but so then all of a sudden I was like in that world opposite extremes yeah so I learned a lot no jape I learned I learned about jape the hard way but like high-end that's the name of my autobiography jape the hard way. But like high-end Jape. That's the name of my autobiography. Jape the hard way. But this is like some high-end Jape, dude. Yeah, no, it was real high-end Jape. And it was great.

I mean, it's been a wild journey, you know? Yeah. Well, I mean, but let's talk about, because like when I look at the arc of like your career and your persistence, like, you know, it didn't work out the way it could have at the beginning. Right. Well, it still hasn't. I mean, when I first found out you're going to have me on your podcast, I thought, is this some part of Make-A-Wish Foundation?

Is somebody not telling me something? What's going on here? Am I getting the results right after this podcast well no but like you know you you were poised yeah yeah i've been it's a couple times like you get the machine grinding up well i mean the first record big city secrets i mean it's a good record but what happened well that right i mean well that came out in fr. I was big in France. Yeah. That's the name of my follow-up autobiography.

Sure. Big in France. As opposed to Japan. Yeah. And then it didn't do anything here. And then I waited around for a while before I could get into the studio again. It used to take years. Was it disappointing?

Oh, yeah. Oh, like, yeah, mind-blowingly disappointing. Like, everything, you know, along the way. But that's like, that's how you develop into, like, not, you know, that philosophy of not being bitter or whatever. Like, hopefully these things don't destroy you along the way. Hopefully they... Well, you kept working like I did.

Even if you were bitter, it's like, you know it's the andy warhol thing like keep making stuff and while everyone says how bad it is make more stuff yeah it's like that's that's the attitude so god willing or the mystical dwarves or the spirits willing if you ever do hit people are like who the fuck is this guy and you're gonna have 20 records there right and if i don't like or to whatever degree i do or don't it doesn't really matter i mean other than you know i don't, it doesn't really matter. I mean, other than, you know, I don't know. That's my attitude sitting here right now on Mark Maron's podcast, though. So, I mean, it could go a lot further down from here. But the thing is weird, right?

But you still work. I'm sure you've been down. And, like, you know, it seems like there's been booze involved at different times. So, you can get real down. There's been booze involved at different times. So you can get real down. There's been booze. There's been ladies. Yeah. Booze and ladies.

That can really take you all the way down. All the way down. Oh, yeah. Those are two tickets to the bottom level. Yeah. But, you know, but even when, you know, after I liked the Lou album, which is just called Lou, the songs of Lou Reed. Then you didn't know a way to get in because there's too much stuff.

Well, no, no. I mean, I kind of like kicked me and poked around a little bit, but I did listen to Days of Surrender a few times. Oh, cool. That's interesting because that was the record I made after Lou, and I kind of sort of had that same inspiration. It's funny that you're – Well, that came to me in vinyl, and the cover is engaging,

and I'm sort of i was sort of intrigued by you in general because there's something you know very unique and very you know ethereal about like the way you produce records huh so i listen to days of surrender with that same kind of intent like yeah like of like there's something going on here you know this guy's doing things yeah you know and i had to listen to it a few times because it's you were listening to my magical garage that's what you were listening to that's that's my magical garage it's a lot of layers dude yeah in that record in a good way i don't know yeah yeah because because you listen to it and then you hear your voice and then it's right like it sounds like there's like like a whole other thing going on alongside of it huh that's you know what

i mean i like you know like here's the music here's a song right like what's going over there on the right you're like there's like oh right textures and shit yeah yeah lots of panning and stuff like that on the stereo spectrum i mean i probably could mix it better now that i've watched my mixing with mike videos i mean that's the thing that was like that was pre-mixing with mike so That's not my intention of making you feel insecure. No, no. But listen, I appreciate you shouting out that record. I don't know. Is there a better way to say that?

I appreciate you mentioning that record. Yeah. Because, yeah, I don't know. It's just something I put out. There's not a lot of hoopla. You put it out by yourself? Yeah, kind of. That's the way I mean to put it.

Do you have a label? I do Lonely Astronaut Records, I guess. I think it's like this thing where every time you put out something new, the music business has changed again. It's like you reinvent it again every single time. How many big labels have you been at? new, the music business has changed again. Yeah. So it's like you reinvent it again every single time. How many big labels have you been at?

Oh, man. Well, through Real World, I was on Virgin and then I went on to Universal. Real World? What is that? Real World is Peter Gabriel's label. Yeah.

And you went to Virgin? Well, they... I was signed to Real World and then they put it out through Virgin. So you get signed... Sometimes you get signed to these labels that are also signed to labels. and then they put it out through Virgin. So you get signed, sometimes you get signed to these labels that are also signed to labels.

Right. Subsidiaries. Subsidiaries. Now, the second record, Come to Where I'm From, like, you know, this- That was produced by T-Bone Burnett. Who is a genius.

Yeah. Genius, for sure. You know, in his own way, right? I think so, yeah. I liked a couple of his solo records and, you know, certainly he's a great archivist. Oh, he's, yeah, he's...

The world is a better place for T-Bone. Yeah, and what did he bring to your sound? You know, he produced me, like, he gave me so much confidence. It's hard to explain. I don't think it's any accident that he keeps having big success that he does, because, I don't know he there

was something he did where he just like made me feel like what i was doing was very important and that you know and just gave me a lot of confidence and then we made that at sound city which was the you know the out here yeah the gold documentary another magic place which is a magic place yeah yeah and just the whole thing and that was like the la record it was i was out in la for like three months staying at the oak woods i found usher's driver's license in the parking lot and i turned it in anyway so yeah and how'd that record do well it again i think it you know that record actually sort of was kind of like can is

considered my first record over here in a way and that did pretty i've got record of the year in entertainment weekly oh yeah yeah so it had a it and it was a critically well-received record and it sold okay yeah but it didn't sell a lot you know and so virgin kind of lost interest after that and then that's when i went to universal it's got the groovy cover too you always got good cover thanks man i'm a i usually paint them i'm a painter yeah yeah when did that start oh that's painting i've been painting since i was a kid yeah yeah and you do all your covers yeah mostly right usually yeah pretty much and so like so then all right so they didn't pan out as well as virgin wanted it to, and then you go to Universal.

Then I went to Universal, and yeah, then that was Honey in the Moon, which went on the OC, and that did okay. Yeah. It was a song I have called Honey in the Moon. Yeah, and that was from Redemption Son? Redemption Son, yeah. How'd the record do in general? It did a little better, but still know nothing that's gonna like are you really writing

songs that you know are hook laden and he i mean it seems like you were sort of a little it wasn't even that you were it's not even an alt sound it's a very unique sound yeah that that that you know i i don't know i mean did you were you writing songs to be huge? I mean, in my mind, I like write what I like, you know? And so it's just, I like good songs and I like hits, you know? So I'm trying to write songs that are likable. It's not like, you know, but I'm also not like following a formula or something like that. I'm coming from my own unconsciousness. Yeah.

So. Yeah. So that. And Peter like specifically said that to me a few times, which was don't go to them. Let them come to you. Well, there is a dreamlike quality to some of it, like especially on Days of Surrender, which you did in your garage. Yeah.

Without the help of Mike. Yeah. Was that there is a sort of frequency to it. Yeah. That feels a little dreamy. Yeah. Like, you know, I mean, it vibrates on that level somehow because I think that's what I engage with. Yeah.

You know. You like that dreamy level. Well, I just like I saw it as something unique. Right. You know, and I felt it. That's cool. Like I felt like, you know, like this guy is a real thing. He's his own thing.

Wow, thank you so much. That means a lot to me. Seriously. But then you go on. You go, like, from between Redemption Son and The Ballad of Boogie Christ, which was some sort of mildly subverted personal story. Oh, yeah. I like the way you said that.

Mildly subverted. Personal story. Personal story. But, I mean, you did, like did like four records uh-huh five records even yeah you just keep pushing them out i keep making records i love making records yeah i mean i don't love showbiz so much i mean like i'm reaching to the choir yeah but like this this is nice yeah this isn't well but this isn't showbiz but you know what i mean like uh i mean but throughout these records are you still working with keltner like when you when you do sometimes like our shadows will remain this full of mercy my band with ben harper and danny harrison

jim played on that too what was the arc of learning you know from you know through after universal where do you go um so okay that was that was... Who does Our Shadows Will Remain? Okay, so Our Shadows Will Remain, yeah, it's interesting, was this label called Vector. Yeah. And they're a huge management company still now. And they got me onto this label in England called 14th Floor Records. Uh-huh.

And 14th Floor was doing like david gray and damian rice and selling like millions and so they were slotting me into that and i and and they geared it up they did do a really good job with our shadows will remain i sold out like shepherd's bush empire over there like it was building and doing really well but then there was like something happened like the oh they were gonna go with honey in the moon they were gonna try to like repurpose an old song for a single they thought that was they were gonna try to take it to the mountaintop yeah didn't work yeah it didn't fly on radio and then all of a sudden that's it it just starts it's a fade away but

when you've you see the fade away coming and then you know it's there. Again. Again, there's the fadeaway. Okay. And that's when you got your own label going or your own outlet? Yeah, I guess so. I mean, yeah. I don't mean to be so vague about that. I just don't know what that even means. Yeah, maybe I don't either.

Yeah, like a label now. But you started self-producing. Yeah, or just being able, like getting distribution. Right. You know? Right. now but you started self-producing yeah so or just being able like getting distribution right you know right but i mean even that my own label was through megaforce which is a big huge label you know so that's why i always go like do i have my own label uh kind of you know well it sounds like you've got a lot of support through musicians and some producers like are you self-producing like who produced the nuclear daydream um i think yeah i did yeah yeah and you know you just sort of took hold of that shit yeah and that was yeah because that's when the the our

shadows will remain fade started happening yeah i had nuclear daydream when i review my history i look at the albums i followed up like getting a little bit of vibe going yeah and go okay did i let myself down and i really don't feel like i did like i feel like no that record stands too like yeah you know it's just that i don't really follow a particular sound or style i think a lot of people like to me styles of music are kind of like the outfit you're wearing versus the outfit i'm wearing or something or just like yes but i hear you throughout like if i poke around okay cool i'm not i don't listen to something you've done if i'm you know flipping around from different years and go like who's this guy yeah it holds together i think so the tone of your songwriting and the way you sing and certainly

some of the instrumentation right it's not like all of a sudden you're doing a fusion record right that's next getting back to fusion it's time it's just me on the cover it's called just japing around back cover is just a big thing of my thumb hitting the bass string yeah but like talk tell me about the process of um of making uh the ballad of boogie cries because that sounds interesting yeah that that was a long, that was word first. I normally wrote songs,

like Days of Surrender, for instance, is music for, is all melodically driven. Right. It's all just like, so I'm just making up words to fit into the melodies, you know? Uh-huh.

And with Boogie Christ, I had like words first. Which is why you got this story arc. Kind of, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that that that's it with that and then i mean that just took years and years to make or just like but you let it go you know you work on it for a while and then you like walk away and do other things and then you

work on it how'd you fund it oh through uh pledge music and that was before kickstarter that was after kickstarter but yeah pledge music and yeah that really worked out pretty well for us yeah yeah it was good it's a lot of work i mean the thing is that it's perceived as like this uh you know you're kind of your hands outreached yeah which i guess it is but in the end you're really just selling your stuff it's like a fire sale for your right store i guess yeah yeah on some level yeah you know but you got enough bread together and you got good players on that thing yeah yeah and uh you work with garth hudson garth hudson came i i mean it was gonna originally just be like yeah just me and garth on one of the big sounding organs well there's this studio called Old Soul in upstate New York, and Garth lives there.

Yeah. And not at the studio, but so, and Garth would come by around like midnight. He works late, you know? Yeah. And just, he, talk about a magical being, you know? And just, he's like, kind of leans like this. Yeah. And just starts doing things, and it's just like playing a casio keyboard up here that's just got little mini keys yeah somehow

like playing something amazing and then playing a grand piano with yeah with the other hand uh-huh stuff like that yeah you know that's cool to work with that guy yeah that was unbelievable it really was and he doesn't say much in between but then he listens and he makes sure you uh race things he doesn't like oh yeah because he doesn't want them getting out there yeah yeah yeah yeah controlling the yeah yeah doesn't want no uh jape out there didn't want the jape man this jape word landed for you this is gonna well you've pushed it you're gonna this is gonna you're gonna use jape so did you like tell me about like it was sort of like there i read some stuff on you and it seemed like sort of a an ironic an ironic but i read some stuff on you but there was sort of touching to me that like you did you got a grammy nomination

for a cover oh god you love it like i'm like this guy's been working his whole life on his music you know what i'm glad i'm glad you see the humor in it because that's the big that's the that's how you survive it yeah you know is it's funny as hell it really is you know i think i you know which cover was it a call vacancy yeah how many years in for vacant like when you do vacancy that was still early early days. So that was like, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that wasn't quite as hysterical as it's becoming. Right. Oh, it was an EP too.

Yeah, and it's an EP. Yeah, yeah. You got a little attention from the industry. Yeah, there you go. Do you ever do art for other people? I've been asked a couple times. I haven't really done it much, but. But you do a lot of painting

and you have your paintings oh yeah i sell i mean i uh i paint all the time and do art shows and stuff like that that really helps me you have a gallery keep the living going too or you just sell them online i used to have a gallery called museum of modern arthur yeah i opened up in dumbo brooklyn oh yeah yeah for like three years we had like events and it was pretty fun. Did it work out? It did to the, you know, I didn't get rich, but I mean, it depends on your definition of working out. Was it a scene?

It was a little bit of a scene. It was fun. Oh, good. Yeah. And they just sent me today, this morning, your book of poetry, so you got that. Yeah, I write poems and post them. But do you write them to, not to be songs,

but just to be poems? I write a lot, so, you know, and then I just post them, and, write them to not to be songs but just to be poems i write a lot so you know and then i just post them and you know i don't know some of them i think are they're as cheesy as they want to be you know just putting shit out in the world man yeah um yeah i don't know it's like i'm i'm driven to do it but this new route the new album family again is another uh album that sort of explores themes throughout characters. Right. And it does sound a little different to me. Right.

In that, well, I mean, the piano is very prominent. I wrote it all on piano. I got this Steinway Vertigrand from 1912. It was in one family. It came from Connecticut. And it was, I think I got it for like $1,600. It was in one family. It came from Connecticut.

And it was, I think I got it for like $1,600. In fact, you know, that's something you could, because you don't need a huge space at all for it. I mean, a vertigran, it's a, well, it's an upright piano. Yeah. But yeah, you can get them pretty inexpensively. And this one is like magical. And so I just, yeah, I started writing songs on it. Was it based on the

piano it was all based it wasn't based on it was with one family did what's her a route to the no i was the root to the story was i was with this girl who was uh on speed and her husband or her ex-husband kept calling her and was like um upset about her not taking care of the kids and she was telling me about that and then i was identifying with him thinking like and then when i went home i started writing a song from his perspective to her you know and that was called that's called you wear me out on the family and that was the seed of the whole record and then from there i just decided okay i could write a whole album on just family dynamics yeah and so i started um talking to my own like my my own family about their histories and stuff and i started like using aspects of my

grandparents and and just a way to explore my own sort of family history as well but even though it's not about my my was it cathartic for you i think all creative acts are cathartic you know like there is some sort of catharsis there i mean i i think like you know we're we have we're given all this energy to do something with and and if i don't do something creative with mine i do something destructive you know so i so i i'm like i'm not so results based that's maybe one of the problems but it sounds like on some level you you create to save your life that's why i do it that's why i don't have a problem with whatever the universe wants wherever the

universe wants to put me in that mix it's cool with me because i for me it sounds cheesy but it's really true the reward is in doing it. Yeah. You know, I just like doing it, you know? And how much did you, did you spend a lot of time with Lou? You know. Were you around when he was sick? I spent, I did, I did see him a lot, you know, for a time there, you know?

Yeah. Did you learn from him? I did? Yeah. Did you learn from him? I did, yeah. I mean, it's hard to put into words exactly, you know, cause I learned from his music so much before, you know, but yeah, just with him, I just, you know, just loved him as a person, you know, and tried to not ask too many, you know, like questions

about, like tried to not be a fan. And I kind of wish in a way that I asked, I had been more of a fan or more asked more just like, you know, the guitar sound on Coney Island Baby, like, you know what I mean? But I did text him once that Coney Island Baby is the best song that anyone's ever written. Yeah. And he handled it very graciously. Then I immediately said, oh, sorry to fan out. He wrote something nice back.

Oh, he did? Yeah, he wrote something very nice back. He was a nice guy. That's the thing. He was really, inside, he was a very nice guy. Yeah. And outside, but you know what I mean? He has the-

Sure. Well, I mean, like anybody else, you don't know who they are until they let you in yeah and if they let you in then you know yeah and if they know that you already know they usually let you in yeah yeah yeah i think that's uh i think that's true um and what what did your folks do when you were growing up my dad was um well he was building truck tires. He worked for the government. Then he put himself through law school. Oh, yeah?

And then he became a lawyer. And he also built, like, houses. I mean, he worked really, really hard. Is he still around? Still around, yeah. And, you know, he's like, yeah, like, sort of, I don't know what strata you would put us in. Lower middle class, middle class, I don't know what you what um strata you would put us in well i mean lower middle class middle class i don't know how does he feel about you um well that's probably complicated but uh i mean like you know is he proud does he like your work does he i think so

no that's good i think so yeah we have a good i i feel like my family relationship is good you know i mean there's like there's you know we're a dramatic bunch i mean, you know? Good. I mean, there's, like, there's, you know, we're a dramatic bunch. I mean, we, you know, we're crazy. But usually they just want to know you're okay. Yeah, I think they really care about me. They really love me, and I really love them and care about them, too, you know? And your mom's all right?

And my mom's really good, yeah. Good. They're together still. Up in Ohio? Yeah, in Akron. They still live in the house that I grew up in. So you go back there sometimes? I go back.

I sleep in my childhood bedroom, but now it looks like a Pier 1 Imports instead of the cool bedroom I left it with Jimi Hendrix posters on the wall. Where'd they put the posters, man? Where are the posters, man? Yeah. You want to play a song?

Sure. On my guitar? Why not? Is that in tune? I miss the drunk, I miss the fiend I miss the simplicity of addiction in the scene I miss wandering aimlessly in half-dead sewers with rats for eyes Chewing on forgiveness and the will to apologize I miss the return of no return as I burn in avalanches

Of white snow and yellow cocaine I miss talking to brick walls while following the grain And human dolls as I plagiarize myself like a dummy Stuff with counterfeit money for pyro and black honey I miss illusions begging to be chased Even as they disappear into me erased Until there is no one or nothing but the chase and a powdery ghost with no face of faith and the woman of my dreams

disappearing without grace i miss the zoo i miss the zoo i miss the zoo I miss the zoo I miss evolving into a cloud of blue marijuana Blown from the lips of hookers and pimps As they shake each other down in the alleys for the damn but mighty no one but the weak around

and the beautiful unsightly I miss numb Neanderthals marching in rows of living dead from my wisdom teeth to Spain and back again in my head I miss salvation in syringes and angels of mercy and blooms of smoke

numb in rain which drinks when thirsty I miss glasses full of spirits without tongues, speak to me of Napoleon's wild nights. I miss staying up for days and becoming a psychic pretzel flying tights. Shoot on by a Zulu heading with toads to Mars. A mysterious prison in one without bars. At least those kind of bars. I miss the zoo I miss the zoo

I miss the zoo I miss waking in the arms of strangers Like puppies just born in the pound To a dead mother with eyes sealed shut Looking for a tit to suck and other dangers When the night before laughter was our only pursuit Even as knives carved up our backs And demons sat like buddhas eating fruit Meditating on hate forever in our minds

I miss exposing even my bones and the need to rewind even my burning home, even my gutted inner child, even my dead grandfather beneath the ground that's wild even my criminal family, even my weed whacker thoughts whipping a thin plastic string to cut the ears off others as I sing I miss Van Gogh's revenge, I miss his nightly binge I miss spiders surrounding my bed and lifting me as if an effigy. Or a dead king, a prophet of doom. A Jesus for the apocalypse wearing dirt like perfume. Or a mother for Satan or a ghost for all the children of abuse. Take me

into the fire, watch me burn like a goose. As they sing in spider voices, there goes creation, there goes the moon. There goes the butterfly wanting a cocoon. I miss being a bloom and a goon waking up too soon in the afternoon. I miss the zoo. I miss the zoo. I miss the zoo. That was great, man. Thanks. You got it. I love it, man. Thanks. You got it.

I love it, man. Thank you so much. Great talking to you. You too, Mark. I really, yeah, I'm a big fan. I think what you do is wonderful, and thank you for doing it. I appreciate it. I like talking to you.

Thank you, Mark. Nice, right? I like when people play in here. i'm gonna leave it at that i i guess i won't be playing because we just had a guy play and sing right wtfpod.com for all your wtf pod needs posters t-shirts tour dates blog podcast whoo yeah i'm sweating. Boomer lives! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snow need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost almost anything.

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