WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 744 - Kamasi Washington / Ben Ratliff

Episode Date: September 21, 2016

It's Jazz Fest at The Cat Ranch. First, Kamasi Washington tells Marc how an Inglewood kid growing up in the early 90s wound up at the forefront of a modern jazz revolution, including groundbreaking work with Kendrick Lamar and his own massive debut album, The Epic. Then jazz critic and writer Ben Ratliff joins Marc to open minds and change old listening habits, as he explains how to truly enjoy music in the age of unlimited options. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking istas what the fuck tuckians what the fucking adians what's happening i'm mark maron this is wtf this is my podcast. Welcome to it. How are you? Good morning. Good afternoon.

Good evening. Hope work's going okay. Keep doing it. You can finish this run. That's it. Put another 10 pounds on. You got this. I know trains do suck.

What? You're just painting in your studio? How's that going? Just pace yourself. Take your time. Think it through. Yeah. Do all through yeah do all those things in all those different places if you're listening to me in one of those environs look i

i got a pretty amazing show here today on my hands i got a pretty like i learned some shit on this show today on the show i've got kamasi washington the master sax man, the new jazz guy. He's the guy. He's the, look, I actually, I think he is, but I don't know a lot about the big, broad world of jazz. Since I've talked about him a little bit, I get emails educating me even more about the jazz thing. I don't know if I have time to go fully on down into the rabbit hole,

but I do enjoy it. I'll talk about that in a second. Also on the show today, for more jazz information, Ben Ratliff, who used to write over at the New York Times. It's funny, because Ben literally the day or two before or after he did the podcast, he left the New York Times. He's the former New York Times jazz critic he's got a bunch of books out that I'm in in the middle of many of them so it's a big jazz Thursday here on WTF with Kamasi Washington and then after that a conversation with uh Ben Ratliff how's that grab you I will throw a little uh plug in here for a couple of dates that are coming up quickly.

This weekend, Saturday, the 24th of September, there's two shows at the Wilbur. I don't know how many tickets are there, but there's a few tickets left. I don't know for which show. October 21st, I'll be at Campbell Hall at University of California, Santa Barbara. That's those tickets. I think, yeah, there's definitely tickets for that. Largo, October 22nd here in Los Angeles. And the Ice House, October 23rd here in Pasadena. And the Now Hear This Festival, October 29th in Anaheim with my producer and business partner, Brendan McDonald. We're going to do a live talk thing.

So those, and Carnegie Hall. There are a few tickets left, but they're aerial views. November 4th at Carnegie Hall, but still worthwhile. It'd be nice to look down upon me from the rafters, but excited. I'm excited about that.

Is that okay with you? Also, there's another thing I want to do. I talked to my buddy, Danny LaBelle. I ran into him and he's been on the show he was on this show back on episode 398 and a couple of weeks ago as you know I had Gad Gad Elmaleh on the show he's the French comedian the French Jew the French Moroccan Jewish comedian who's now touring the states who had nice talk and if you want to hear Gad in a little different element he's the guest on my buddy danny labelle's podcast today that show is called modern day philosophers it's basically he talks

to comedians about one particular philosopher whether they know about it or not he brings up something the guy wrote and you kind of talk about it i was on it a while back i talked about spinoza he's had maria bamford on talking about satra did i say that right colin qu on talking about Sartre. Did I say that right? Colin Quinn talking about Dante's Inferno. It's a clever show. It's a good show. He's a sweet guy. So you can check that out wherever you get the podcast, Modern Day Philosophers. And that was a plug out of love. Oh, the other thing, this is also a plug out of love because I'm involved with it. You know, look, a lot of you guys have been with me a long time. And a lot of you guys have seen my growth or my spinning or my uh my uh my cycling around with uh incremental growth to quote the president not unlike a democracy for me incremental growth

has meaning it's the only thing we can hang any sort of uh hope on is incremental growth and i think i've grown incrementally as i cycle through the patterns that i still persist in there's a little bit of incremental growth and then the pattern changes a bit in terms of my understanding of it anyways not to be too vague but uh i'm in this thing that premieres tonight. Joe Swamberg. Joe Swamberg, who's been on this show and is a great and very real independent film director. He's a great guy.

He directed a couple years ago, Happy Christmas with Anna Kendrick. That was funny. Drinking Buddies. He did All the Light in the Sky. He's made a lot of movies for a little money and uh he's a solid dude and a very a very kind of a brilliant director because i'd never done anything like i did with joe really uh the show is called easy it premieres on netflix

tonight i'm plugging it because i'm in it and i'm very proud of my episode. I think it's number four, but they're all really good. Each one sort of follows a character's life for one episode in Chicago. And I play a somewhat over, what is it? Washed up, maybe. Maybe not even washed up. I play a graphic novelist who had a couple of big books and now now he's released another book, and he doesn't quite have the following he has. So he's a little bitter, a little nervous about the future, and he feels a little irrelevant. And the way that Joe shoots is all improvised.

And I really, look, I know I can improvise on a stand-up stage or in conversation or whatnot but on a set you just go with very basic information and you lock your own emotional choices into the thing and I was surprised because the the episode I did with Emily Ratajkowski and uh Jane Addams who I love was pretty like I watched it and I was like this this is kind of deep it's funny it's sad it's deep it's sweet I mean I had all these things that when I'm in it I mean I can only feel what we were doing I don't know how the hell he pulls all this stuff together as a director you really got to have a unique way of thinking to improvise that much and also as you're doing it you know think about continuity how you're cut in and out of things. But the whole series is great

and I'm very proud of the work I did on that. I'm just telling you because I'm excited about it. I'm excited about that being out there to watch. So that's on Netflix tonight. All the episodes of Easy will be on and they're unique. They're like little movies and they're worth watching.

How often does that happen the modern media landscape is challenging you know sort of like driving past a landfill and you know your first thought is oh look at all that garbage but your second thought is i bet you there's some good shit in there i bet you there's a box of money in that dump. Well, easy is definitely a box of money. So Kamasi Washington. Here's how I came to Kamasi Washington. Look, as I said before, I like jazz. I got a mind for it. I don't understand it or really how it's put together. I'm going to talk to Ben Ratliff about that. I do know it resonates with me. I got a cousin, my cousin Jane,

she'd listen to jazz and it would make her anxious. She literally could not listen to jazz because it caused her too much anxiety. I guess what I have is that jazz is actually a riddling effect. Like I'm already a little hyper and a little nuts and jazz kind of levels me out and I can sort of get fully in to the exploratory groove that the cats are are putting out and I can tell the difference between a few people but I don't know a lot I just know that when I put it on it's always consistent I always lock into it whether it's bebop whether it's older whether it's big band you know I'll listen to some Artie Shaw I read Art Pepper's book which changed my life straight time by Art and Lori pepper there is a book about heroin and a little bit

about jazz and i remember one time i saw this was really like this weird these moments i remember about jazz is like dizzy gillespie was on uh was on he was being interviewed on some show and i just saw him do this like he was just trying to do like make an example of a swing beat and he did it with his hands he clapped in a certain way and i was like that's so fucking cool i gotta learn how to do that it was like uh like i had to learn how to do that because dizzy did it to make an example of something my buddy dan cook down at gimme gimme records turned me on to kamasi washington he had this new record it was it was kamasi's first album and it's a triple fucking record it's called epic

so i know what i was getting into but i knew the cover of the record meant business i knew kamasi meant business so i took this album three albums home and i put on and i was like blowing the fuck away so many layers so much time travel everything was there it was one of these records where you listen to it I'm like it's all here everything is all here everything about jazz is here it's all leading up to this Kamasi Washington's epic and I went to see him when he returned to LA he's from LA and he broke his ankle, so he was just sitting in the middle on basically a throne, playing sax with an elevated foot, surrounded

by at least 20 musicians of all different kinds, singers, there was orchestra musicians, cello, there was two keyboards, two drummers, a couple of horns, Thundercat on bass with his five string, I just was like, holy shit, this all happens in real time.

Mind-blowing. Had to talk to him. So this is me and the master, Kamasi Washington, talking right here in this garage. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that.

Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary.

From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people and better health solutions. Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. Calgary is on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at Calgary economic development dot com. Fratch. So how's your leg, man? I saw you when you came back to L.A. That first night you fucked your foot up. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's getting better. I mean, it's still not 100%, but it's definitely getting better. I can get around now. I can, you know, I mean. What happened? Man, I was in Stavanger, Norway, and I was walking down this cobblestone road, and it started snowing. Yeah.

And I'm from L.A., so I don't know anything about the snow. So I thought, like, Air Force Ones, yeah, good grip. They're basketball shoes. They should work perfectly in the snow. And, like, I literally, like like we got to this real steep hill yeah like uh these people are showing us this like really old part of the city like all the homes are like 500 years old oh wow crazy like that yeah so we got to this really steep hill and i was like are we really about to walk down this steep this extra that's deep and like i

started walking down and i literally started sliding down and I should have just fell on my butt and slid down right to the bottom oh you tried to stand I tried to stop myself and then it like flipping and I looked down and my foot was like going the wrong way and I was like no man I kind of like popped it back in place oh my god and felt the most extreme pain I was it was like it was like two o'clock in the morning. I was laughing hysterically from the pain. It was like the weirdest. That's where you went?

Yeah, that's all I could do. How many people were you with? There was like five of us. No time for crying. No, no time for crying. It was one of those moments. It was definitely a very fundamental reaction was going to happen. It was going to be a baby type cry, like a wah, wah cry, or a laugh.

Those were the only things I had. I was like, I don't want a baby cry, because I don't know all these people that well. So I guess I'll just laugh hysterically. Oh, good. So they think you're crazy but not not uh not a wimp yeah yeah yeah yeah so like I have a lot of questions man and and and I imagine I'm not unlike a lot of people I imagine that when you live the life of a jazz artist you're not gonna be like I'm gonna be huge like I'm gonna the whole world yeah there's only one or two

jazz guys that that have that and they're not that good. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there's a global community around the music, and there's people that can appreciate the music, but it's sort of, it's one of those things that not everybody gets. Yeah, yeah. But do you ever teach? You know, I taught a little bit when I was right out of high school. I taught music theory.

Uh-huh. There's a school called the CESA School. Yeah. It's the Southeast Symphony's weekend music classes. And I taught theory, I taught piano, and I taught drums. You started as a drummer? Yeah, yeah. So let's start there. You grew up here.

Yeah. Where at? Englewood. You come from a musical family, right? Yeah, yeah. Because I think, there. You grew up here. Yeah. And where at? Englewood. You come from a musical family, right? Yeah, yeah. Because I think, didn't your old man play with you? Yeah, yeah. I mean, he played saxophone, flute, clarinet.

Yeah. He was playing soprano saxophone at that show, though. Right, right. So you grow up. How many brothers and sisters do you got? I got six brothers and sisters. Is everybody music? Everybody's talented.

Everybody plays a little bit of music. Pops makes sure that we all play something. I'm the only one that really kind of stuck with music as Everybody's talented. Everybody plays a little bit of music. Pops made sure that we all played something. I'm the only one that really kind of stuck with music as my main thing. Like I have an older brother who's a photographer, but he also plays piano. I have a sister who's a painter, but she also plays a little piano, makes beats and stuff like that. They all got it in them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's good.

So there was always that in the house that there was sort of a necessity to have the understanding of it. Yeah, yeah. And now, who did your father play with? Did his dreams come true? Did he do the thing? Well, he went to Lockheed Hyslop. So he grew up playing with Patrice Russian and the Dougal Chancellor and all those people. They were local jazz guys?

Yeah, yeah. He played with Earth, Wind, and Fire for a little while. He did a lot of stuff like that. But then when the brother that was older than me, when he was born, he made a decision to stop touring and just start teaching so he could stay in town and basically be here in our lives. For the kids. Yeah, yeah. And where did he teach?

He taught at Hollywood High School. He taught at Southgate High School. And his last stint was at Helen Bornstein. Really? So he's an educator. Yeah, yeah. And when you were a kid, was your mom in music too? My mom plays flute, but just for fun.

She's more like, you know, she's a science teacher. They're both teachers. Uh-huh. So she would pick up her flute, you know, on special occasions on Easter. Yeah. You know, some people wear a hat on Easter. My mom would play her flute on Easter. Yeah?

A flute, that's a tough one it seems but and not really because it like when i saw you like here was the reaction i here's my here's how i found out about you i went down over here to permanent records which is used in some new record store down on figueroa the guy dan over there and uh he says did you get the kamasi washington record i'm like no i i don't know who Kamasi Washington is. And then I go up and I pick up this record, which I brought out here. He goes, this is his first record. And I look at the cover of your record, The Epic, and I'm like, this fucker means business.

This is his first record and there's three of them in here. And it's a history of everything. And I bring it home. Because I listen to jazz. But again, because I'm sort of not down the rabbit hole. So I bring your thing home, the epic, and I put it on. And right away, I'm like, what's happening? Because the first thing that struck me was the choral arrangements.

Yeah, yeah. And I never heard that before in jazz. And then I like all the other stuff that's going on and I'm thinking like, this guy must have spent hours producing this. And then I go see you live and it's all happening live. Like the chorals there,

the two keyboards, the magical bass player, that wizard Thundercat. Yeah. And then everyone's playing different instruments. People are coming in. Some people are singing. I'm like, holy shit.

What the hell is going on here? So, like, and what I understood, I guess I'm just going to talk at you for a minute, is it seemed to me that you were honoring the actual honest progression of the jazz that I knew, of bebop and of that, of Miles and those guys, that you weren't doing fusion, really. You were integrating something of the history of jazz into creating something that had all elements working, balanced.

Is that true? Yeah, I mean, what I try to make it be like is like a person, you know, like a musician has all those things. Yeah. Like, you know, like for me, like, I'm trying to make it like who I am, you know what I mean? So I have like jazz, there's jazz in me me there's funk in me there's fusion there's classical music

there's choirs i grew up playing in churches and stuff like that there's all these things in there and they kind of just exist together yeah you know i mean so you know that's why there's so much in there because i was just like well i want to make a record that's kind of like me right so i'm just like i'll pour this in there i'm pouring that i'm pouring that i'm pouring that i'm pouring that i'm pouring that and i'm stirring it all together and that's what you get yeah see what happened and i always knew that that would work because i i just felt like music is is so much more connected than people kind of let it be let it be you know like we we get these terms or something like you know when and if you go back in history like you know, like James Brown had his whole band with jazz musicians.

Yeah. All those guys are all kind of everything. Yeah. Everybody was everything. Right. And then all of a sudden, like as those individual words kind of get bigger. Yeah. Then they kind of start spreading out.

Right. But the reality is, it's like branches on the same tree. Yeah. So I was like, well, let's just get back to the tree for a little while because the branches are so yeah yeah they've got they've lost their their they've they've gone into the ground and grown a different tree yeah so you can't you can't feel the connectivity of everything yeah yeah so when you started out when you were a kid you know what was what was going on in the house what was the first music that you know you registered with you that way compelled you to to live the life of a musician, other

than your dad being a musician. Yeah, I mean, for us, in my house, it was like everybody's playing the instrument. We were little kids. I mean, there's a bit of an age gap between some of us, but my three brothers, the two brothers that are around my age, we were all playing music, and it was kind of like a daily thing. So I don't even remember when that started. Yeah, right. I just know I always kind of played music yeah um but when i was about 13 um well not before that really when i was like 11 i got into jazz yeah and that's when i started

taking music seriously it wasn't just like it was almost like you know you can imagine like you know you're a kid everybody rides bikes yeah it's like right you're not like, you know, you can imagine like, you know, you're a kid, everybody rides bikes. Yeah. It's like. Right. You're not like a bike rider. You're not like a, you're not like a stud. You're not like. Once you're up, you're up.

You got it. You ride bikes because you ride bikes. You know what I mean? So it was like, I played music just to kind of play music. Yeah. I just played it. It was like fun. Sometimes, you know, pops got too involved.

He got a little, he got heavy. You know what I mean? But he got out of the way and let us just kind of play around with music. Like he'd get into it and be like, you're not on the beat. Yeah. Like that kind of stuff. You're not playing the? But he got out of the way and let us just kind of play around with music. Like he'd get into it and be like, you're not on the beat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not playing changes,

you know. Yeah, yeah. But you needed to learn that too. Yeah, no, yeah. And we learned right because of him. Yeah. You know,

when I was about 11, I got into jazz. What did it? I had a cousin that, his dad had a really crazy record collection. Uh-huh. And so he kept asking me like to, I knew how to read music and he didn't.

Yeah. So he would bring me over to the house and ask me to, he had this thing called a real book. Uh-huh. And a bunch of jazz songs. Yeah. And so I played clarinet at that point. I wasn't even playing saxophone.

And drums? Huh? Yeah, and drums. Yeah. I mean, I was, it was kind of more, I mean, I still play, I always kind of kept playing drums and piano. Uh-huh. But I would always have a main instrument.

So at that point, my main instrument was clarinet. Really? That one, huh? Yeah. I didn't want to. I wanted to play saxophone, but my dad, he wouldn't let me. Because he played? Because he was a woodwind player.

Yeah. Back in the 70s, if you were going to be a saxophone player, you really had to be a woodwind player and double. Oh, so you had to know. It was like that was your entry level. Yeah. Learn the reed on the clarinet and then you can step up to that because the saxophone is easier than clarinet right clarinet's like a harder instrument so if you start off on saxophone you're never gonna want to go play that old ornery clarinet you know what i mean so so uh uh i just go over his house and like you know i was i would read songs for him like and so show him how to play stuff oh because he wanted to go over to his house and I would read songs for him and show him how to play stuff.

Oh, because he wanted to know how to play it so you would transcribe it. Yeah, yeah. So he gave me a tape with a bunch of jazz songs on it. And I looked up to him. And so at that point, I was really in the NWA and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. And so I got this Art Blakey record. And I just really got into it. Yeah.

And somehow I got my friends into it too so we were all like we all turned into these art blakey fans and uh and you're a bunch of nwa guys yeah we're a bunch of little kids uh sunny forest elementary school like sagging pants every other word is cuz yeah but we like art blakey so that's how it starts yeah and then um you know so so at that point i'm now i'm trying to play this saxophone stuff on clarinet and it's hard for me what what were you playing on clarinet i was playing like classical stuff i was playing like stuff from method books and yeah yeah this little little kid stuff i was like 10 so yeah right little kid stuff you weren't all of a sudden i'm now trying to play donna lee and I'm like this is hard but the saxophone players

are making it sound easy right and so one day my dad left his saxophone out and I just took it and I was like let me see if I can really cause he's always said like

man once you learn to play clarinet you can switch to saxophone and it all transfers over yeah but I didn't really believe him right so one day he left it out

and I just took it and I could play this song that I really like called Sleepin' Dance or Sleep On is it Blakey's song? it's a Wayne Shorter song. Oh, Wayne Shorter, right.

Yeah. It's from an R. Blakey record. Right. And I played it. And I ran into another room. Him and his friends were sitting there chilling. I was like, look, I learned how to play saxophone. It's too late.

It's too late. Done. Yeah. He kind of just like, okay. He kind of laughing. Yeah. That's when he took me to my uncle's church and made me start playing at church like that sunday the sax on saxophone i didn't know what the notes were or nothing he was like a real like diving head first kind of person so i was up there in

front of you know the whole church playing saxophone didn't know with uh with what god what what was the music just gospel music gospel music yeah yeah yeah and so it was like you know so i kind of dove in head first and once i dove in like like that, it kind of really grabbed me full-fledged. I switched schools. I switched a music academy school. You did? Yeah. Which one did you go?

I went to the Hamilton High School. Uh-huh. And so that moment, because it's hard to, were you aware that this was, because if you're just hanging out, you listen to pop music, and then you get, you grew up with the jazz in the house, but you had that, all of a sudden you had this personal relationship with blakey yeah were you able at that moment to see that there was like a whole world of that stuff it took a minute like you know at first i was just in our blakey and my thing was i like our blakey right i was a blakey you know i mean he's your guy he's my guy yeah i mean and then like from our blakey

you know i got into wayne shorter which kind of led me to Miles Davis, which led me to like Charlie Parker. And I guess like playing gospel music in a church is going to give you a good foundation for that, you know, the basic core of the changes, right? Well, it develops your ear because everything's by ear. Yeah. It develops your ear and your intuition because everything is intuition and everything is ear. It's like there's no one telling you what to do but they get really

mad when you do the wrong thing in jazz and gospel yeah i mean jazz is a little more forgiving actually in gospel it's like if you don't feel what the right thing you're supposed to be doing okay so you're following something yeah you're following the room and you're following the song may not be complicated, but it's supposed to serve a purpose. Yeah, yeah. It's an inspirational thing.

Yeah, yeah. So you gotta learn how to lock your feelings into it and follow that lead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They say, you know, follow the spirit.

Yeah, yeah. And if you're not following it, it's like, what you been doing? What you been watching? What's, you know what I mean? Yeah, you got some evil in you. You've been doing. Yeah. What you've been watching. You know what I mean? Yeah. You've got some evil in you.

You've been up to no good. You don't have the clarity necessary to follow the spirit. Yeah. Was church a regular part of your life? Yeah. I mean, before that, it was interesting because I grew up in church, but I never played in church until then. Until you were 11.

No, I was 13. Uh-huh. Well, you say that like, you know, like, I was well you say that like you know like i was there a long time before i played it felt like a long time i feel like i've been there because because i was the one thing that i was surprised at myself was that like i was playing in church and i there were songs i'd never played before but i heard them so much i could just play them yeah like which ones just old spirituals yeah yeah just all kinds of stuff like the old spiritual some of the new church song i mean it was just all the songs that we had been singing all those years.

Yeah. All of a sudden, I could just play them. And I was like, it kind of, I was realizing all my ears tapped into my fingers. And like, I don't even, I couldn't tell you what the notes were going to be. Right. But I could just play them. So that's that instinct. Yeah.

That's got to serve your whole life. Yeah. So like, but I'm picturing the church, you know, maybe in a sort of a narrow minded way that it was very like there was a lot of interaction the the the the the the people at the church were involved oh yeah you know that cheer you're on even especially when you're young yeah that's all right baby it's okay i know you played the wrong note but it's okay keep on playing it was like so all right so you go from that so now you got a head full of gospel music.

You're 13. You got a head full of Art Blakey and you're starting to listen to Miles. And then you start going to the school. Yeah. And then do they kind of refocus you on theory then? Well, around about that time is when I got into John Coltrane. And then it was like nobody could tell me anything except him. You know what I mean?

I was like really into Trane. So I got to my school and like, I guess, I mean, they're real supportive of me at Hamilton because they could see I was talented. But like me and a friend of mine, the piano player that was playing with me at Nokia. What's his name? Cameron Graves, the last guy.

Oh, yeah, yeah. We were just full-fledged John Coltrane heads. So we were just, we were wild. And we were in this high school jazz band and we were like- Going out there? Go all the way out. Yeah, yeah.

Do double time stuff and take long solos. Yeah. Completely change the chord changes and drive the band director crazy. What is the, how do you go into, like, where do you start with Coltrane? Like, outside of just, you know, knowing you play sax and knowing that that guy

was above and beyond anybody, where do you start to understand what he's doing? It's almost like I needed to have, because my dad was trying to get me into Coltrane when I was young and I didn't get it. I didn't even like it.

I was like, this is weird. It's almost you have to have a bit of a musical foundation. Trane is so emotional that if you can't wrap your mind around what he's doing, then all that emotion just feels crazy. Right. So what's the trick of improvising like that? Landing?

It's letting go. Yeah. It's almost like Bird and all those other guys, they ran to the edge of the cliff. Yeah. And they may have one pinky toe left on the cliff. Right. But they would always run to the edge and stop. Right. Like with Train may have one pinky toe left on the cliff right but they would always run to the edge and stop right like with train you gotta be able to run and jump off uh-huh and just be okay falling down this cliff and have the confidence that somehow

i'm gonna land on my feet so it is about landing yeah you're like because you're gonna have to re-enter right yeah like at some point the trick to that type of improvisation jazz wise is like when all of a sudden you look at the drummer and the bass guy and go okay I'm back yeah or they can sense it yeah they can sense it uh-huh it's like we all jumped off yeah right all like we're gonna lamb you all like point look at that there's a tree we go in on that tree we gotta make it to the tree so you started experimenting with that like at 14 or 15 yeah yes and i stayed there till i was about i'm still probably still there yeah but uh i mean

no i mean after that i mean i was stuck on that for a while yeah and like that was like what we were we were all on that too so what were you playing in like uh four piece we had a quartet called the young jazz giants uh Giants and we terrorized all the jazz clubs of LA. We would show up in numbers and just, you know,

play the songs extra long. And were the people that were running the place or the patrons like, who are these kids? Oh man,

everybody. We used to go to places and sneak in. We used to go to hear Kenny Garrett. Like the first time I met Chris Dave, we had to go hear

Kenny Garrett and Chris Dave was playing drums with him. And mind you, we I met Chris Dave, we had to go hear Kenny Garrett and Chris Dave was playing drums with him. And mind you, we never met Chris Dave before, ever. And so we all walk in there. None of us have any money. And we're like, yeah, we're on Chris Dave's list. And the next day we come in, we're like,

we're on Kenny Garrett's list. We didn't know Kenny. We would just do it every day. We would go places and just, that was like our thing. Like, we're going to get in. So there was a big jazz club scene. There still is one? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, yeah, there was the Murph part. Especially, I got a car. I was the first one to get a car. When I got a car, we were all over the city. We would go. Like, I don't know anything about that world. So there's still, like, you know, jazz going on every night in Los Angeles. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's still jazz going on. Like, real shit. Yeah. No kidding. Yeah, yeah. It's such a unique and somewhat insulated world isn't it yeah and you kind of like i imagine jazz musicians kind of know of each other yeah especially in the city yeah like you know when a new guy's coming up right oh yeah yeah when somebody moves in town yeah it was like a ripple

goes through the scene who's this guy yeah what's. What's he got? It was like a new guy that came out of the Matrix. You know what I mean? Like somebody woke up. Yeah, yeah. So when did you start learning about classical music and the sort of layering

that would lead up to something like the epic? When did you start putting that stuff together? When I got to Hamilton, all of a sudden, they had an orchestra. Yeah.

They had a wind ensemble you know i was taking piano i was taking i was like i was in jazz band yeah i was in wind ensemble i was in orchestra how are you at the piano good i was pretty good yeah so i was like four music classes in high school right you know yeah that was mostly what you were doing yeah how was the other stuff going i was i'm a pretty good i was pretty good in school. I was like, you know, my mom was a science teacher, so she always was pushing me on that level. And I always had an affinity for learning. Yeah.

So I was pretty good in school, actually. Yeah, that's good. So you started playing in the orchestra, and you could read music from a very early age. Yeah. So that wasn't that daunting to you. No, no, but it was different. Yeah.

Because it was like, you know, I never played in in the orchestra before so it was a different way of playing right not not as expressive per se and you got to be part of a yeah a team yeah in a way yeah you're gonna have 78 bars of rest and then this really important part that you play so it was like you're waiting yeah a lot of waiting yeah yeah yeah yeah and what did you take from uh when when you started to i imagine like i don't know jazz structure but you know i mean i imagine that the basics you know coming out of coltrane and and bebop and stuff there there there's a set of basics that you're gonna you're gonna run with and break and do whatever you want but i imagine once you get to classical music,

you're like, what is this world? Yeah, yeah, it was that. They wanted me to play with a different kind of tone. On the sax. Yeah, yeah, it was the first time I was really reading music that had really crazy odd meters, like we're gonna play in 1716. I'm like, why, okay. But you could do it, you could wrap your brain around it. I'm like, why?

Okay. But you could do it. You can wrap your brain around it. I don't even know what that would be. What would that be? It means that there's, each measure has 17,

six notes, 16th notes in it. Like most, it's, it was ridiculous. Stuff like that. But the cool part of it that was,

as I was meeting these classical musicians who were giving me albums, like people were giving me, oh, check out the Rite of Spring. Oh, here, check out this, you know, Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet. And, like, this stuff was, like, really opening my mind up to just different worlds of music, you know?

Right. So, just like you were with Blakey, you got these people that are like that with Mozart or whoever. Yeah, yeah. So, like, when you started listening to that stuff, that stuff, what was the difference for you? If you got somebody like Coltrane taking you out there over the cliff, looking to land, what was your first impression of what those classical composers were doing? What they were doing was the same, because I was into the out composers. I was into Stravinsky, so Stravinsky like writing this music that's so dense and so like

heavy that it could stand right up next to what Train was doing oh right right so it was like I was like oh wow so that other people

that had the same kind of intensity and energy that like I like over here it's over here too and it's old it's old

yeah it made me want to start writing I was like oh man like this is I'm into this you know that was what inspired

you to kind of like start composing yeah like with discipline yeah as opposed to just riffing yeah well i was already kind of like writing little tunes and jazz but i was like man i want to learn like so like by the time i was going to high school i knew when i went to college i wanted to learn how to write for the orchestra because i was just like man that would be and did you feel like it was because i know when you're working with a quartet that there's like a one mind trust thing that you're you're kind of reading each other's signals and and knowing the feel of the music but when you're working with an orchestra

and you've got a uh conductor you know keeping the pace and you know you have to honor this piece that collaboration is very different than working with a quartet, right? Yeah, yeah. So you're kind of part of this giant body. Yeah, yeah. It's interpretation as opposed to creation. Right, improvisation.

There's still a connection you have to make and you still have to be creative in a way. Yeah. But your creativity is coming through in how you interpret the music. So what makes any one orchestras or any one conductors different in terms of, it's how they approach or pace the music or. Yeah, how they pace the music, how they phrase it. Yeah. It's kind of like subtlety, more subtle differences. you can tell but you can tell yeah yeah and it can change i

mean the tempo of a song can completely change the whole feel of it and like right how because a lot of classical music also had a lot of music that was like the the tempo is is is much freer right so it's like the music kind of like has this kind of like elastic time feel to it. Oh, wow. So it's like it's moving in this way that's not so set where like as jazz

it's like Yeah. And you have to like lock into this groove Yeah. a lot of the time. Yeah. I mean, there's also jazz

that has that similar thing but like in classical music there was a lot of this elasticity. Right. And it's like how are you going to play this? Right.

How are you phrasing it and so it's subtle but it's also part of a bigger arc yeah right like if you're playing a symphony i mean you're in for a while yeah yeah and i guess some of that must have informed the the structure of the epic in a way right you see this as one piece right yeah yeah so that's like that's directly relatable to classical that you have that flow and that elasticity but it's honoring the story or the arc of the symphony yeah yeah wow man this is good i'm learning so so where'd you go to college i went to ucla and you studied only music i studied ethnomusicology and and composition oh so that must have been mind-blowing and jazz studies i was like i was

all over the place i was like playing in the jazz bands i was i was taking ethnomusicology and composition. Oh, so that must have been mind-blowing. And jazz studies. I was all over the place. I was playing in the jazz bands. I was taking ethnomusicology classes, and I was taking composition classes. So you got a degree in ethnomusicology? Yep. Now, what did that introduce you to? So I'm assuming that that means that you're dealing with indigenous music from everywhere? Well, just music from from all over places.

I mean, we were studying like North Indian classical music. North Indian classical music? Yeah. What does that even mean? Like stuff, people like Ravi Shankar. Oh, okay. That's considered classical music. That's good to know.

I just got a Shankar record. Yeah, yeah. That live in 71 at his house. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so like people like Ravi Shankar and like Ali Akbar Khan. So you had to learn about the structure of that, of the ragas and the- Yeah, and the scales and their whole way approach of listening to music and hearing and their

whole approach to music. What other stuff? What other type of music? I got exposed to this music called gamelan music, which is from Indonesia. And it's all based off these ostinatos. So they create, they may go like, da-dee-da-da-da. So one person will play it slow, and someone else will go, ba-dee-da-da, and someone else will go, da-dee-da-da-da-dee.

And all these layers create these really amazing kind of textures and harmony. So I was learning that kind of stuff. It harmony so it was like i was learning that kind of stuff it's like almost trance like just even you doing those two yeah oh man you get caught up in it and then they put a melody on top of that yeah yeah you know so i was learning that and i was listening to like you know there was like these uh these these irish boy choirs that like had these really crazy textures and there was music from all over the world i mean i was listening to some music like some native american music that like you almost couldn't even

recognize it as music right so but it had a function and it really just opened me up to the to the reality that there's anything was possible like even like the North Indian classical music one of the things that was crazy to me is that you know those songs long last like two three hours long like one right one joint and yeah people love it. I was like, oh, man. So we have like this, we think we can only do three minutes. They're doing three hours.

So anything is really possible. You know what I mean? And also I think like, you know, I've sort of thought, and I've talked a little bit about before, is that music really is sort of magic. Yeah. You know, like it's not like spoken word, you know, where language has, you know, where language has,

you know, so much power. And it's not like what I do, like stand-up comedy, where, you know, you're waiting for a turn of a phrase to get closure.

But music, you can actually enchant people and you can do it over and over again, even with the same piece of music. Like, you know, there's nothing like, you know,

like you can listen to the same piece of music over and over again at different points in your life, and either it'll take you back, or it'll take you where it took you, or it'll take you a new place. Yeah. I always thought that. Did you feel that initially when you're getting into Coltrane that there's a personal journey? Yeah, yeah.

That it was not necessarily like a shared experience outside of the guys you're playing with? Yeah, well, I think it's almost like it's a conversation. Okay. It's like, I feel like music is communication like beyond your control right it's like i'm going to strip away all of my knowledge and i'm my core is going to kind of is going to communicate with your core right and like so that's what happens so like we hear coltrane it's like you hear his core communicating with mccoy tyner's who's communicating with Elvin Jones and Jimmy Garrison. They're all communicating.

And as a listener, you're kind of like you're receiving. And it's just how open you are is how much of it you can receive. That's why I think like this. It's like almost an infinite. It's like you can. Sorry about that. Yeah. The big cane. You can you can receive a lot like you can, sorry about that. Yeah, the big cane.

You can receive a lot or you can receive a little. Right. So I find that over the years, I'll have a piece of music and I'll hear it and sometimes I'm hearing a whole nother part of it that I never even realized was there. Right. Well, I have that experience with your record. you know well i i've had experience with your record like every time i put it on because there's so much going on that you know like you can sort of like move your your your your listening to different elements of it yeah like they're all sort of carrying you through but but you're sort of like you know if like i got locked into that choral stuff i'm like what's what is that what

is going on and then you kind of shift over and you got two keyboards going right yeah and then it's sort of like oh my god like it's mind-blowing just the the event of it yeah yeah you know and then when i saw you do a live i'm like i don't know if i can take it but that's an interesting way to put it because if a musician is doing his job or doing his art that you know when he's done, if it's recorded, you walk away thinking like, well, it's all there. You know, I did it. I did my part. So what anyone else is going to do, it's really on them.

Yeah, yeah. And that's sort of what jazz is. It's like people who are like, I don't get it. And then if you're like, well, maybe just sit with it longer, it's like, oh, I'm kind of getting it. And then all of a sudden you're like, holy shit. Yeah, that's the best that can happen yeah right that's why you you rarely hear someone say like yeah when i was younger i was into jazz but i don't like it anymore

but that's not you know it's like once you get it it's one of those things that because it's so wide so now let's talk about the epic because it is definitely something to be reckoned with and like what what i was really excited and impressed about it about the record was that because i listen to jazz but like i said you know i i'm not in any way like i got a jazz encyclopedia over there and look at the size of that book and that's 15 years old and it's like how am i ever gonna even tap that shit it's quite crazy i'm like you know what i gotta go listen to 90 zoot sims records to understand anything. So when I put this on and I couldn't stop listening to it, you want to listen to the whole thing.

And it's not like I can remember all the melodies and stuff, but I was completely compelled the whole time. And when I look at it, like this happens with jazz a lot, you look at the titles and you're like, well, this has got to mean something because there's a volume one, a a volume two and a volume three and they all got titles so there's a whole other level that i may never get to access so what was the plan so the plan so those three different albums are like three different parts of my life so i want i wanted the album to kind of like be a example of who i was so the plan like that's that whole time period i told you

about we were young and we were like so intense yeah like becoming like we read a joke saying like nobody's like i want to be huge in jazz but we really did you wanted to be what we want i mean we want to be great yeah and we thought that we we were gonna we were in high school we really believed that we had figured out a music that was going to make people understand jazz right because our friends did so we all had we all grew up in the hood we had regular regular extra not deep 40 drinking weed smoking you know yeah regular people friends yeah and we we we used to convert them into jazz heads and it was like they would love our music they would come to our shows at the world stage and be like into it like it's really extra hood people so we're like man we are playing the music that we can like yeah we're gonna save jazz we're gonna we're gonna like it was like we're gonna

save the world we're gonna bring the world to jazz and everybody's gonna like minds are gonna be open and expanded and like so we were we were working really hard we were practicing every day

eight nine hours a day we're going to every jam session like I said every concert even though we didn't have any money we didn't care if you came to LA we were gonna be at your show

right even if you had one time we ran out of gas and we had to ask we had to ask one of the guys we had to ask him for some gas money to get home. We come to your show and ask for money.

And what are they going to say? We came. Yeah, yeah. I don't see a lot of people here. So we were determined to do that. And what happened is, out of high school, so that was the plan. A lot of that music actually is either from that time period or it's music that i wrote thinking about that time period you

know and then the glorious tale the second record is like after high school like we got out of high school and we all ended up on gigs that were not jazz gigs yeah where'd you end up i ended up playing with snoop yeah you know thundercat was playing with suicidal tendencies you know um brandon brandon was playing with uh brian mcknight you know um but so you were just working for a living yeah we were all on tour with these really big artists that we really respected what were you doing with snoop i was playing horns playing oh yeah horn section yeah on the road that was fun huh yeah it was super fun and i learned a lot musically and as far as life too i learned a lot so it was important for me so

it was like it was almost like but i remember we were all thinking in our minds, like, when are we going to do that thing that we. Yes, when are we going to save the world? Yeah, when are we going to save the world? And so for years and years, we were just. But the opportunities were so cool, and there were artists that were so cool. But you all must have been learning different things. Yeah.

What did you take from the experience with Snoop? So Snoop, when I first got in Snoop's band, the first thing I realized was that their whole approach to music was different. Yeah.

They were hearing things in music that I wasn't even hearing. Like what? So they'd tell me to play a line. They'd tell me to go like, shut up,

bada, bow. And I'd play that. I'd go, bada, bada, bow. And they'd go,

nope, shut up, bada, bow. And I'd go, play that. I go, ba-da, ba-da, bow. And they go, nope. Shut up. Ba-da, bow. Yeah. And I go, ba-da, ba-da, bow. And they go, nope, that's not it. Because I'm displacing the note ever so slightly. Oh, really?

And my phrasing is ever so much different. And so I was like, oh, you really are hearing the microscopic differences. Like, they hear music almost like, you know, most people hear music like they're hearing this. Right. And they're hearing like, they're hearing like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So hearing the music chopped up in these little pieces.

Right. And if you're not in the exact right spot with these little pieces. Yeah. And if your phrasing and your tone and everything else is not exactly right to them, you played it wrong. And I'm like, so I started hearing music like this. I was starting to really pay attention to like, where do you want me to play this? How do you want me to play this?

And I would really listen to how exactly you want me to do it and where you exactly want me to put stuff. And it was kind of like the thing of church where you have to really, you have to feel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To understand what you're missing. and he's like one of those dudes that definitely has his own groove yeah he has his own groove and he's like they're aware of it it's not like i mean they don't they don't necessarily verbalize it right but they're hyper

aware of it like so if you're not like locked into that that special place yeah you know i mean it's like so you're whack yeah you could play a hundred you could play giant steps at 400 bpms yeah they don't care can you play bow right there and play a light there every single time you know yeah and so you know i kind of expanded my mind and like the how the importance of like the subtleties of music uh-huh you know and you never thought you'd learn that from snoop, right? No, no. And it made me appreciate to be able to play jazz.

So like we were on tour with Snoop and we get off the stage playing with 60,000 people and we were in a, like because there was a couple of us that were jazz musicians. Yeah. A lot of us were jazz musicians.

Yeah. And we'd be like on a hunt for a jam session. Yeah. And we'd show up in our Snoop uniforms because we had to wear khakis, chucks,

and like a, you know, like a jailhouse t-shirt or something. And we walk in there and they look at us like, what are you guys going to do? And we play giant steps and blow them all away. And they'd be like, what is going on here? So we like doing that too. That's fun, man.

So you get to a town and you'd be like, where's the jazz, man? We're done with Snoop. Where can we go to blow this out? Yeah, yeah. And they would look at us like, what do you want to play? You want to play Sugar or something like that? Like, no, no, no. Let's play Countdown.

And they'd be like, Countdown? You know what I mean? Like, they like. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's too bad you weren't videoing all this. Oh, yeah. It would have been funny.

It would have been funny. Because like, I can tell you that people, I mean, almost every time they would look at us like. You got nothing. You don't know how to play jazz. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We loved it, too. Because we were at sound check, backstage. All we were doing was playing Eternal Triangle and just shitting every day.

It was like, I'll practice probably more on the role with Snoop than I did with Stanley Clark. Yeah, yeah, right. Because you're in it with Stanley Clark. And when you're with Snoop, you're just Stanley Clark yeah yeah yeah right cause you're in it with Stanley Clark yeah yeah and when you're with Snoop you're just making sure you still got it yeah yeah yeah

so it was I learned a lot you know and so for years we just kept going from one and so it was almost like

you guys were becoming pros is what you were doing yeah and so then that second part is you guys coming back together that second part is that

whole time period when you're apart from each other yeah yeah yeah like i wrote a lot of songs on the road with snoove and like it's about that like that want to get back right right and then the third part um the historical petition is basically like when i'm when we went in to record this it was 2011 yeah and i just had a revelation just reflecting like a lot of us are second generation musicians yeah and i just saw how a lot of us are second-generation musicians. Yeah. And I just saw how a lot of our fathers basically did that. They got their talents in and kind of got wrapped up into using their talents to help someone else, basically, and kind of neglected their own music. The vision.

Yeah. And so we all kind of came to this place, and we were like, we got to do our own we were like we gotta do our own thing we gotta do it like it can't be next year we gotta do it like right we gotta do it right and so we basically quit all of our gigs for a whole month right it's hard to do right like people were like you can't do what yeah i can't do anything from in december yeah why because i'm recording my own music why do the whole month because i'm recording my own music why i did a whole month because i'm not just recording my music i'm recording his music and his music his music too

so it was like it was a hard thing to do but we did it yeah and i and i was just i was that whole that wreck that part of the record is just like my homage to learning from the past wow i mean yeah so the so you would say the third record is the pure new stuff. Well, no, the third record is really, it's a reverse. It's like moving forward in the future through understanding the past. Oh, right. So the whole thing. Yeah, that's what that's about. So that's why I'm taking the past and moving it forward.

So all the old songs that we do, we flip them. We play Cherokee, and we completely flipped it. We play Claire de Lune, which we completely flip it. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Learning from Malcolm's things, what I learned from reading his books and stuff like that and even rerun is like i took a song that we already did like i'm learning from myself as well right like looking back to where i was in the plan yeah yeah yeah and you know i mean so yeah

that was the whole so this energy of that record so this is a full life record yeah right here yeah now these when you talk about we you're saying that all the cats that are on this are the guys that you've been with for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. We all grew up together. I met Ronald on Thundercat when I was three years old. Ronald's dad and my dad had a band together.

Yeah. When I was three, I was a drummer. Yeah. And I got a drum set. And so I was at the party and like uh i was playing my drums whatever and ronald bruno senior showed up and i knew ronald bruno senior but i don't think i ever met his kids they were like little they were little they were younger than me yeah so like ronald bruno junior was like this little baby yeah he was like one yeah he couldn't talk

right i swear he couldn't talk man yeah and he got up and he played the drums like a like literally like a 13 year old he was one i was like he was like way better to be i was like what the heck what is this we gotta we gotta set up as this is my birthday you know yeah yeah now what's the uh what's the deal with this Kendrick fella? Oh, man, he's a real live genius. I like his records. I listen to two of the records. I haven't listened to the newest one yet. My girlfriend's a huge fan, and I'm not a huge hip-hop dude,

so I got to really pay attention. And he definitely has his own time zone, that guy. Oh, yeah. And how do you know him? Dude, Terrace Martin, the guy I grew up with. Yeah. Yeah, but he's a saxophone player. He grew up with us playing jazz.

Yeah. And that same band, the Multiscool Jazz Band that we were all in, he was in that band. And so he has a record that just came out called Velvet Portraits, which is really, really dope. Okay. And so I was working on that record with him. Yeah.

And he heard about it. This is like in 2000. This is like before the epic came out so he heard about it but he hadn't heard it right and so i played him i played him a record and when he heard it he was like oh man i got something i need you to do yeah for kentish record yeah and i was like oh okay so i you know was he producing it or something yeah he's producing it yeah and so he took me in and like they played me the record and i was like blown away and i at first i was just supposed to work on that song mortal man yeah that that that skit that happened after it yeah but it was like every time they play the record someone was like oh you should put something on this too and that yeah and that's i mean the end of it i ended up

playing a lot yeah yeah i'm doing a lot of stuff for the record. Did you help do any of the arrangements? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was mainly doing. I was mainly doing string arrangements. Oh, yeah. And so you added that whole layer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was amazing because I was there.

And you didn't know Kendrick before? I knew of him, but I never met him. I never met him. The amazing thing that I was really struck, first off was that he was so hands-on yeah so like first day one like like okay come on see write some stuff to this so i'm like okay you want to give me the files i'll go home and come back they're like no you gotta write this here you don't get to leave with anything yeah so i was like oh okay wow so i had like some manuscript paper so i'm just kind of sitting there listening to the music,

and I have a little piano set up, and I'm sitting there writing, and Kendrick is just sitting on the couch watching. Yeah. But it wasn't like a vibe of like, let me make sure you don't do anything I don't want you to do. It was more like, I'm just curious to see how this process works. Yeah. And I was like, wow.

I mean, most artists, you don't even meet them. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, you just do it, and then you mess around and be at the grammy's like hey yeah good job i wrote some stuff on your record yeah or i'll play on your record you're like oh no oh really thanks yeah really yeah he was so hands-on and then i would see him do superhuman stuff like like one time terrace brought it brought in a new a new beat yeah and i saw kendrick just create a whole song while he was hearing it for the first time and it felt like a complete song i was like did you just create that right now like while i was sitting

here like as you were listening to it for the first time i was like wow man that's that's amazing yeah yeah you know he's got that thing yeah that you got from jazzy you got from coltrane that you know yeah they're sort of uh tapping into the spirit yeah and being in the moment yeah and moving through it yeah and he's got it he's got it full-fledged you know yeah yeah so and he's also got the got the the spirit of of music in that he understands that like you know the best music you're gonna get get from someone is, is who they are. Yeah. You know?

Right. So he would really let you do whatever you wanted to do. Like, it was like, he wasn't, I was, I felt completely free to do what I wanted to do when he, you know, it's like push the strings on this. I'm like, okay. And so like they kept, you know, you usually got to like do something really simple and you try to sneak a

little cool thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like, nah, it was like nah man go dude go yeah i'm like four part army go five part harmony go six part harmonies you know and i was like you know we were just like i was like all right you sure you should i go this far in and like yeah yeah go go so i was like oh wow this is really cool you don't get to work like this and that was a huge record yes huge record and that's to pimp a butterfly yes and it's such a beautiful and i have to say i mean like when i came in they'd already created this beautiful thing yeah and i felt honored that they wanted me to i was like what the hell you want me to do this is already so good yeah they're like nah we here's something that you could do to this yeah

wow i mean i was i was blown away that that i was honored to be a part of it right and that's true collaboration yeah like see that's the interesting thing and i think i imagine you you recognizing yourself that the evolution from you know the the the the original band the giants of the mod what is it the modern giants of what was the first your first oh young jazz giants the young jazz giants the evolution outside of your own skill and your own ability to open your creativity was the ability to really collaborate on a big level yeah yeah right yeah so like you know when you're you know doing arrangements for you know the the basically the small orchestra you put together for the epic, that, you know, the trust and that conversation you're talking about just gets bigger and bigger.

And so when you work with someone like Kendrick, I imagine where they're like, we trust you. Yeah. You're a real guy. Do what you do. Yeah, exactly. That level of collaboration is rare, and it's great. Yeah, yeah.

It's beautiful. What are you working on now? I have a new record. I'm about to start next month, actually. I'm right now organizing in my mind what I'm going to try, because I have so much music, so I have to kind of pick who gets the hit today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same crew?

Same crew. I have some other people I want to involve in it, too. There's some young guys I've been exposed to recently that are like- Young guys. How old are you? Well, they're young, like 17 17 18 they call me mr washington and stuff like that i'm like yeah i can come play with you i stopped calling mr washington well it's great talking to you and thank you for uh for spending the time and educating me a little bit and oh man thank you for for inviting me man let me hang little bit. Oh, man, thank you for inviting me, man.

Let me hang out with the mushroom. Yeah, you got it. Yeah, Kamasi Washington. That was exciting for me. I like learning things, and I like talking to artists. That's what I like to do. Hey, all right, let's jazz it up some more. Now, Ben Ratliff is a jazz critic.

He's a guy who writes on jazz. His recent book, Every Song Ever, 20 Ways to Listen in an Age of Musical Plenty is available wherever you buy books. He's also written books about the most important jazz records. He's written a book on John Coltrane, which I'm trying to to get but i had an opportunity to talk to him and he was out here and i wanted to learn i wanted to learn

about jazz but you know he's a good guy and i learned about also the life of a critic and what compels somebody towards uh towards that gig so this is me and former new york times jazz critic ben ratliff. Where do you live? I live in the Bronx. Really? All the way up there? Yeah. Well, you got a house up there, like past... An apartment.

Uh-huh. Just in the northwest Bronx. Yeah. Just into the Bronx. Right. It's Riverdale. Right, River Bronx right it's it's Riverdale right Riverdale that's it yeah and Riverdale has a has a uh a part with big houses yeah near the river right and a part with you know normal stuff yeah I'm in the normal area yeah you've been there a long time uh no just

a couple of years oh yeah but you've been a New York guy yeah yeah yeah where'd you grow up there i grew up in well born in new york city yeah lived in london briefly because my my dad worked there my mom was english really and then yeah and then rockland county north of new york city most of the time yeah growing up and then and then i went to columbia columbia that's what did it? That's what sealed the deal? Kind of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to be a New York guy. I mean, you lived in New York. Did you know that Columbia has the greatest radio station in the world?

No. Yeah. And the programming then, at least, maybe still now, is about 60% jazz. 60% jazz. Mm-hmm. So as a student, you could go in there and you encounter these huge lockers full of records. Yeah. And that's like, in 1985, that was the internet.

Yeah. Right. The room full of records. Yeah. So, you know, you do what everybody does. Like, you figure out what you know. Yeah. And then you work what everybody does. You figure out what you know, and then you work backwards. Right. The three things you know, and then you keep going like, oh, fuck.

What's this? Yeah. What led up to the tiny amount that I know? Right. And then you put it all together. Because I think that way. When I have someone in here who's a musician and I know that it's not going to make a difference, but I'll buy every one of their albums, even if there's 20. And I'll sit there and do that.

You know that it's not going to make a difference whether you know a little about the musician's work or a lot? Well, I know that ultimately, you know, how I'm going to take it in when I do that. Like, I don't have a lot of time. Yeah. You know, and I don't necessarily, I think, arguably, in that respect, research-wise, put the time necessary into sort of really doing the lifelong. In my mind, it's like, well, if I'm going to sit down with Neil Young, I got a lot of

fucking work to do. Yeah. But what you don't know is, Neil might not want to talk about shit. Right. That's right. So, and, you know, he might only want to talk about one thing. And right so and you know you might only want to talk about one thing and your entry point whatever that is even if it's limited that was earnest means a lot that's right you know that's right i mean it's that that's it's really authentic

right but you know you don't want to do a disservice to the freaks out there no that are sort of like what he didn't talk about there's freaks everywhere. I know. I mean, pedants. Yes. You know? I know. But what you want to do is at least give them something. And what I learned over time was that if I get him in here and he talks about his truck, that's going to be more exciting for the nerds than if he gets...

Okay, sure. So you want to create something of value to the people who really care. So they're like, I didn't even know he had a truck, and I've been listening to him for 60 years, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. But I like this idea that, like, what drug, like, because you've been a, what would you call yourself, a music critic? Mm-hmm.

For a long time. You've been at the New York Times for what, for 20 years over? More than 20 years? 20 years. 20 years, exactly. Yes. So you're following in big shoes as far as you know new york jazz music reviewers like i does hentoff loom march right sure uh i

don't know a lot of the other ones but him is like he seems to be the guy sure for years nat hentoff and and very present to me too as a writer he he would call up sometimes and and say he liked something and he could only be reached by telephone no no internet oh yeah did he pass is he no he's still around so you still get what are they cranky calls are they like i think it's a misread no no really good oh really yeah was he a mentor of sorts no no you wouldn't give him that just a distant very positive presence oh that's nice, though. It's history. Because he was a definer in a lot of ways, right?

Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, he wrote books about jazz. He also wrote tons and tons of liner notes, you know, on really important records. He was in the studio with people. He really got to know people like coltrane right and you know um so his writing must have been of some value to you sure yeah well that's a whole other issue i mean i guess i'm so i'm such a like sentence guy uh-huh um rather than a historian or or a um or somebody who wants to help the consumer decide what record to buy. Right.

Like, I actually love sentences. And so I guess I pay close attention to people's prose, you know? Uh-huh. And, I mean, I guess I get more, sometimes I get more juice out of people that I can apply to my own work that aren't writing about music at all. Oh, yeah? Yeah. So when you say sentence guy, does that mean you're more...

Because in your new book, you're sort of seeking to create a new context through which people can appreciate music. Right. So that's outside, sort of taking from history, the idea that there was a time where there were communities and populations that could only listen to one kind of music. There was a mainstream music, and we all got fed the same type of popular music. And there were people that liked classical. There was just country people. But now the idea is that everything is happening all at once with no fucking context. So how do you sit with that and be okay with the movement through it?

That's right. So history obviously gets somewhat short shrift in the new system in a way. Sure does. By nature. Yeah. But when you say that you're a sentence guy over a history guy, does that mean you go with your gut, that it's a feeling thing, that it's poetry? Is that what we're talking about?

I think that music criticism is a really vital thing you know it's it's not just a service it's not something dry it's something about um interpreting and almost communing with the the thing you're you're writing about the music and respecting it yeah it's a form of respect it is a form of respect. It is a form of respect. I mean, you could be saying what you don't like about it, but that's still a form of respect, that you're getting very close to it. Right.

And it's partially just the discipline I came up in, you know, starting writing about music in the early 90s. What were you doing before that? Like, let's go back to that record room. I mean, how do you, like, so you're in England for a while, you go to Columbia, what were you studying? I studied classics, Latin and Greek. So you're an English major or a classics major?

Classics major. So you read Latin? Yeah. You did all that? Yeah. And what'd you take from that? Well, sentence structure. This is where the love of sentences came from.

Yeah, yeah. Getting really close to sentences. Yeah, yeah. How sentences work. For sure, that. And also, I mean, I read a lot of really good literature in Latin and Greek. But then after that, I worked in book publishing for six years. Oh, yeah?

For who? For Little Brown and William Morrow. As an editor? Henry Holt. Yeah, like a baby editor. in book publishing for six years oh yeah for who for um little brown and william morrow and as an editor yeah like a baby editor oh baby editor you never did you get disillusioned or you just um yes and and also at one point i was told directly you know you're just not gonna make it here and i was so grateful to hear that you know it's nice when somebody hits you with some honesty it really is yeah were you writing at that time yes so you were going to be a novelist or no no i was really interested in like music criticism specifically cultural criticism generally like who are your guys like northrop fry no um that was too english major-y for me. I mean, I was- Ben-Hamin?

Yeah, well, Walter Benjamin, pretty cool. No, I mean, I guess I really read a lot of sort of like mid-20th century people writing about music, but also writing about other arts like um ralph ellison albert murray uh uh manny farber writing about movies um pauline kale so you saw criticism both cultural and art criticism in in in in the way and making a distinguished distinguishing between a reviewer and a critic that that through the art you you you explore all levels of of of humanity in a way yeah that that that's your portal in that that you respected the form of criticism which is fallen away a bit uh culturally in the sense that i don't know that people really appreciate it or understand the difference between like if you say he's a movie critic to be like well he reviews movies yeah they don't understand the weight of it yeah um my i have an ideal about criticism just for for what i want to

do with it and what i get out of it which is like um you take something in and you and you are able to isolate the part of it that is maybe essential to it. But like if you took it out, the whole thing would just kind of crumble. Yeah, yeah. So you get that little piece, which is representative. And you describe it as closely as you can. Uh-huh. And the description of it becomes a sort of ritual act.

Uh-huh. You know? Yeah. And by doing that, again, this is like my ideal version of it becomes a sort of ritual act. Uh-huh. You know? Yeah. And by doing that, again, this is like my ideal version of what I do. Yeah, but you're a real guy, so this means something. Every once in a while I get close to the ideal. Mostly don't get anywhere near. But, you know, and then, so, you know, all you can do is you take a representative part of it,

describe it, bear down on it like crazy, interpret it, and somehow the essence of the thing can sort of rise up through the writing. Right. And I just feel like that's it. That's it. That's a lot. That's enough.

That's the job for me. So in this new book, you sort of like do that. You compartmentalize that process yeah and then you literally make song lists as examples of your point of essence in each of these different areas that you're using to appreciate music yeah that's kind of it yeah i mean i guess the book starts with a um a question and then becomes like a meditation on different ways of listening. And the question is like, okay, stop for a minute.

Here we are. We have in our pockets, not every song ever, but it kind of it can seem like that yeah you know it's like as as close to what people thought about the great library of alexandria you know like like not the whole sum of human knowledge ever but but like it can seem that way we've got it in our pockets right so like all right so what are we going to do with it yeah um and how can we access that stuff that we all have and are we going to rely on uh streaming services and and uh recommendation engines to to tell us what we like are we going to kind of give them control over our taste or are we going to figure out ways to get back in you know reach back into the depths of what's there? Or surprise ourselves.

Surprise ourselves. There's always the shuffle option. Yeah, sure. And learn how to encounter something new and not be alienated by it. Learn how to encounter something you've never heard before and say, oh, yeah, that is about me also. Right, about me. That's is about me also. Right. About me. That's the big, that's the big distinguisher.

Yeah. That, you know, there is this sort of element of popular music that has always been there that it's designed in its magical structure to, to grab you and, and make you react somehow. And that's always there. You can't, I mean, it's there pretty far back right yeah and the hook the beat whatever it is the the the time that the the song came out this was designed you know we want you to write songs to sell songs we're selling songs to people here make them dance make them feel something but then there's this more of the world of music has none of that intention and i don't think people realize that that the i'm sure they do but we you know even myself

like when i started buying records you know i i never knew about like these smaller labels secondary labels these home you know these kind of like 1000 pressings of some band that disappeared that that like it was actually a surprise to me i guess if i really thought about it i would know it that there was really there's always mainstream and then you meet the guy at the record store and you realize like oh there's this other thing right and then you meet another guy that only listens to one weird ass music and you're like holy shit that's there too yeah but then you realize like there's a whole other second history to modern music that goes completely unappreciated and unheard. And that kind of blew my mind how fucking brainwashed we are.

There's always more, isn't there? Oh, my God. But so earlier in this conversation, you were saying, in relation to jazz and that big blue book over there um that it kind of made you feel overwhelmed yeah and that that seems to be the conversation i keep hearing around music around the new muchness yeah like the excessive infinite accessibility it's people kind of shut down and go like ah it's too much what do i you know i don't i don't know what to do it, ah, it's too much. What do I, you know, I don't, I don't know what to do. It's, it's, it's intimidating. And what do you suggest?

Well, I just think that we should like, why, why, why? Why think that? Well, it's also the decision is like, is it part of your life or isn't it? Like, you know, I went out of my way in recent times. Music's always been a part of my life and I've always wanted to be up to speed on things and, and hear new things yeah but you know with everything else going in the in our lives yeah that you know you got to make time to just not even make time you just got to put it on like i have those records in there and i'll just put on records all day i don't know what they are

and sometimes i'm not even paying that much attention right and i'll just put on records all day. I don't know what they are. And sometimes I'm not even paying that much attention. Right. And I'll just let them go. And occasionally, you know, there's just always music going now. And occasionally I'll go like, oh, what's that? Sure. And then you go in and you like listen to it again. Yeah. Like I don't put too much pressure on myself. No.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's the key. Yeah. And maybe people are worried that if they listen to too much music, it becomes a selfish act or time-wasting act. Yeah. I don't know. Well, you don't have to.

It's your choice. Even with that big stereo in there, people are like, you just sit here and listen to records? Sometimes. Sometimes I just put them on like we used to. Yeah. You just go flip it and keep going. I don't know what people expect. I mean, your job is, I mean, I saw when we were in the house and I told you about my new elevated awareness of the kinks.

When I put that on, I looked over at the couch and I saw you in what must be your listening mode. You're like, there was a lot going on. You're like, all right, I'll give it another shot. And things were going. The abacus was working. Yeah. And that's a different kind of listening. You know what I loved with that was, well, we were talking about how I just don't know that record.

Right. The Village Green Preservation Society. Yeah. It's a blind spot for me. And you're a guy that knows records. I mean, I'm reading this book and I'm looking at this list. I like where the fuck did that even yeah i don't know yeah apparently i'm a guy who has music but everybody's got blind spots so that's so that's one i just never got into the kinks that much but um i like i couldn't believe that i was hearing this this famous record for

the first time like it was all new to me. Nothing was coming at me like, oh, yeah, yeah, I heard this once. Nope. Totally new. That's weird. You can do that every day, though. Yes, you can. But that fits into what you're saying.

I'm hearing shit for the first time because I'm doing it on records, but now the part of what you're saying is that that possibility is always there now. Yeah. And it's a sort of an amazing thing to have that experience. But I think we're all prone to thinking like, I missed it or it's too late or whatever. But all this stuff happens now.

It's all happening now. Kind of. Yeah. I think a lot now about the meaning of the past versus the meaning of the present yeah and what do you get um the past is the present right it's like you know the past has great present day meaning yep you know um it's all cumulative and relative and is this in relation to music yeah yeah because like i have some heart in general sure you know i guess but like it's sort of like i have this struggle going

on in my mind too and i think it's relevant is just that if we lose the context completely yeah you know how do we learn about progress evolution change yeah uh you know the good things that we're supposed to get from you know surviving yeah uh that that that scares me a little sure but but with music i i think it's a little different sure yeah well um there have been a lot of there's been a lot of kind of hand-wringing recently about how with music, we're just looking backwards all the time now. Right. We're into bands that are playing music that sounded exactly like it was coming from the 1980s or the 70s or whatever. And there must be something wrong with that.

That seems terribly wrong. Yeah, yeah. That seems like a lie or something. Like a lie or we're sort of stuck or it's hackneyed or appropriation has taken over originality. Yeah, yeah. I'm not convinced. I'm not convinced that it's a lie.

I think there's something real about it, something authentic about it. And maybe this is something actually that I got from a degree in classics. Just thinking about the past is something that is continually influencing the present. Can we talk about jazz for a few minutes and then talk about the new system? Sure. The new system. Because look, I've always liked jazz, but like I said before, I always feel like I'm missing the key to it.

I like listening to it and I get it and I can jump on the journey. What do I need to know to sort of like, you know, and even when I'm reading your Coltrane book, you know, you're appreciating the timing and the space and what he's doing that's differently and where it's coming from. And, you know, what I got out of that book was I know that people say that jazz comes from the blues and I'm a blues guy, but I'm a 1-4-5 blues guy, just stinky blues, and I can go back in time with that and find those rhythms out of Africa or whatever.

But I don't quite understand the shift from blues to jazz, how that opens up. Right. How does Duke Ellington play, and how know how did the those guys do you know i don't know if you have to worry about that so much no i mean i think that i mean you you because you know one four five you're you're gonna be able to hear blues blues language sometimes when it comes up in yeah you know right in in any kind of jazz sure um but then know, I feel like with jazz, I mean, strong melodies are nice. Yeah. You know, they're and they're they can be durable and usable through the ages or whatever.

But jazz is more about like in jazz material is almost neutral. You know, what you're dealing with is, it's the whole thing of, you know, it's not what you do, but the way that you do it. Yeah. So you're dealing with the sound of a band. Yeah.

And how full and integrated and original maybe that group sound is. Right, and how they communicate with each other. How they communicate with each other, yeah. And I always listen to the drummer first. Yeah, yeah, I listen to the drummer. I focus on that and listen really hard to what the drummer is doing. Is the drummer making the beat different all the time?

Right. And how is the drummer connected to the bass player? Right. And then who's following whom? Uh-huh. And is it all one? Yeah. You know?

Yeah. That's always my sort of comfortable place to start. Then I think about what the soloists are doing. Right, right, right. And tone and logic. So I don't need to be insecure? No, no, no. Like, what's the point?

What'll the insecurity do for you? Nothing. I guess, well, that's a good question throughout the entire, that's for me, a broader question. I see. Yeah, yeah. Now I know what you mean. You know, like, I mean, that's, that is the question. You know, some of it's resolving itself.

I think, unfortunately, I seem to need to think that I'm, you know, not quite doing it what I need to do. Well, okay. Do you know this? There's your other's the other book and this is the one i don't have the essential library of jazz the essential jazz the essential library new york times it's it's the hundred jazz records that at least in 2002 or whatever that was oh this will help me i thought one ought to know oh this will help me you know why didn't i have. Oh, this will help me. You know? Why didn't I have this before? Don't know.

But see, the weird thing is, is like, how do you decide that, like, how do you decide this Jerry Mulligan record is the record? I mean, he's one of those guys. What's he got? Like 30 records out? More. So you listen to all of them? No. See, so you're not a complete shit. You're not not the guy that has, you're not the catalog guy.

You're not the guy that's like, you're okay with making the decision. If we had to know everything before making a decision about something, we would never do anything. We'd just be frozen. No time. We'd be sitting there frozen yeah you know shaking right that's my life maybe i should have more acceptance no i think i think you can deal with um okay you know about the new the new way of listening and um think that we have the good thing that immediate infinite access

does for us is that it can give us the sort of outline of a musician's career really fast. Right. So the example I always think of is like let's say somebody dies you know like lemmy dies right and um and you see it coming up on your facebook or whatever and you're like i don't know who lemmy is so you so you look up that and you know within two minutes you you've got um you can see all the lowerhead records right and you can find a place that tells you you know what the best period was and whatever and you can kind of you can figure this all out in about an hour right now you can see the outline of the whole thing sure between seeing the records

and just doing a wikipedia or whatever online you can kind of get the arc yeah and so I think that's useful for some artists that has 80 records. No, it is. It is useful. And it's also, like the weird thing is, is somebody like him where that's a sound, that's a lifestyle, there's a method there that if you're going to lock into that, there's not going to be necessarily a lot of new things there's not going to be a period of lemmy unless you go back to hawkwind for those two records where he played bass and sang some that it's going to shift a lot yeah and there's a there i guess there's a comfort but there's also a sort of like if you're one of those people that needs to hear everything you can kind of like hear the the important records and then kind of click

through the other nine records yeah yeah all right so now i have this yeah what do you do you what do you think of kamasi washington i really like him great right yeah i really like him now let me just ask you a question like i'm coming at jazz you know i know like i've listened to it i listen closely to it i read our peppers uh autobiography but when i put on that kamasi record yeah first of all epic and the cover art and the fact that his first record is three records it's like all right he means business yeah and i talked to him in here yeah he's a nice guy it's a great guy yeah he's a smart guy sweet guy got shit together

but when i put that record on, like right away, like I was like, there's a lot happening here. Yeah. And then when I found out that it was all played live, I'm like, the production, this must have taken hours to sort of like take that and put that here. But he does it all live. Right. That's baffling.

Yeah. I think that record would go into the density chapter. Yeah. In think that record would go into the density chapter in my book. But yeah, well, the guys in Kamasi's band have all played together since they were kids, which is that so meaningful. Because of the communication thing. Yeah, right. Yeah. And I mean, I only started to see them,

I came out to LA like a year before the record came out. Yeah. And I saw that band for the first time. All 90 of them. Well, it was maybe only 10 that night. Okay. I know people out here have known about him for a long time. Yeah.

But, you know, in New York, we just don't hear about what kamasi we we didn't know about him yeah so and and i had that very pleasant experience seeing him and his band for the first time of like what is going on i don't get it you know like i don't understand how this group knows what one another is doing all all of it. I just don't get, like, this is mysterious to me. But it was great, right? It was really good. And I guess you learn to trust yourself, too, that when you have that feeling of like, I like this, I like this a lot,

and I don't know where I am. Right. I don't know what's going on. That's a really good, you can trust that. That's the magic thing. Right. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. That's a really good, that's, you can trust that. That's the magic thing. Yeah. Where you're like, there's something whole here. Well, yeah.

And it's connecting with me. Yeah. Music is mysterious. Yes. Like it's supposed to be that way. Yeah. That's why, you know. Yeah.

Music is not words. Yeah. There was a, I can remember all those things. And I imagine that with this this one the the essential jazz library here this book the these records that that there's definitely you can really remember when your mind got blown yeah with music and you know you can remember you know who turns you on to it you know where because you're it's usually every time you get you know whether it's you buying a record or whether it's someone going,

you got to listen to this. It's almost like this portal opens to an unknown world where you're like, holy shit. Yeah. All right. Let's talk. Let's, I feel like we could keep doing this with every artist that we talked about, but I do want to sort of engage in, you know, the, the, the desire to create a context where there is none in this world where we can have anything, anytime. Right now, you could say, like, can we listen to some throat singing from Tuva? I could be like, hang on a second.

Sure. And there it is. The first time I heard that, I'm like, there's a lot going on. I don't know about that. Right. Yeah. that i'm like there's a lot going on i don't know right yeah well i mean i got i got really interested in um i got really interested in the tradition of the 20th century tradition of music appreciation like the music appreciation movement there was a movement yeah like starting in late 1800s and then going really up to the 50s or 60s.

There were a lot of books that came out with the basic premise of, so you want to be a reasonably educated person about music. Right. Here's what you ought to know. Right. And it was an attempt to democratize taste and all, you know. Yeah. So there were these very influential, widely read books that came out. And, you know, things that they were taught in high schools and stuff.

And it was really entirely about, just almost entirely about Western classical music. Right. Sort of like Bach to Brahms. And so, I mean, that movement is totally dead for many reasons, one of which is that we now understand that Western classical music is just like one thing among many out there. And I thought, but there's something about those books that I found really interesting. And I thought, well, if a book like that were to be written now, what would it look like?

And I thought, well, the first thing I thought was it wouldn't be about what the composer wants you to understand. Because listeners have so much more power now. So it might be more about what it feels like to listen. So in a way, this book, Every Song Ever, is like a music appreciation book from the listener side of things. Right. And instead of writing about music in terms of genres or movements or this is harmony, this is melody, this is rhythm, the chapters are based on um

experiences of hearing repetitive music right experiences of hearing slow music right you know things that like everybody understands what slow right slowness is repetition yes you don't need to you don't need to have heard any song to know what that is. So I just feel like these could be keys to, you know, so you like one kind of slow song. Well, maybe you might like another kind of slow song from the 16th century that you have not encountered before. Or from another continent. Or from a culture that is different from your own. Or some experimental musician.

Sure. Yeah. There's a chapter about quiet. Yeah. And quiet and silence, that kind of thing. That's different than slow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

You have to be really slow to be quiet, I guess. But those are the headings of these essays there's slowness speed there's quiet silence intimacy yeah uh stubbornness and the single note yeah yeah and you're able to track it you know with songs so that's i think that's the beautiful thing about what makes this book you know modern and relevant is that you know i went on spotify and i checked out the you know you put together uh a list what do they call it the spotify uh my publisher farr strauss made a made a spotify playlist of like almost every piece of music i refer to in this book and it's great 15 hours long right yeah but anyway in these chapters yeah

like um i mean the sort of stealth thesis of the book is that we should all listen to everything you know i mean like what what's why why should we limit ourselves right so um so genre is kind of out the window in this book and um so like the repetition chapter, I write about James Brown and Steve Reich. Yeah. And Rihanna and I don't know. Kesha. Yeah, I mentioned Kesha's song. But just all these different pieces of music that use repetition.

Yeah. And I write about what does that mean? How does repetition work on you as a listener? Right. What's it all about? And this is not one of these neurological books about listening. No. You know, I'm not a scientist.

I don't understand that. But I can write about it as a listener, as an essayist, as somebody who knows something about how how music works yeah and um and these are and these are suggestions yeah about about how to think about kinds of listening experiences like these these these 20 ways to listen are not the 20 ways to listen it's just a way it's it's to get people thinking about how they can, about how they're good listeners. Right. And also, I think the biggest trick in terms of people that will be interested, you know, that want to think about this stuff. I think as a critic and also as somebody, you know, who wants to have an open mind and be an educated, sophisticated person,

I think mostly what stops people from doing it is like, that sucks. Right. And then what stops people from opening their mind is like, who the hell is that guy? Also, there's a thing of like, who the hell is this Ratliff dude? What does he know?

Well, there's that. I'm familiar with that. But then there's the thing. When you're listening, yeah, there can be that reaction of somebody like me doesn't like that kind of music. Right. Someone like me. This music is not for someone like me. Right.

That bothers me. Yeah, it bothers me, too, because a lot of times, I mean, I don't think I've quite bothers me. Yeah, it bothers me too, because like a lot of times, like, I mean, I don't think I've quite said that. What I usually say is like, I don't know a lot about that. Yeah. You know, I don't know, like, because when people go hip hop, I'm like, I, you know, I didn't grow up with hip hop. So it's not like, it's not a fundamental to me.

Yeah. But like, I've listened to a few, you know, Connie records, Jay-Z records, Cypress Hill records, you know, even going Ghetto Boys records, NW. I mean, I've listened to those over and over again. But for me, the primary reason with rapper hip hop is like, I'm not fundamentally a lyrics guy. And the amount of active listening I have to do is a little hard.

I was going to ask you about that. You know, because we were listening to that Kinks record. Yeah. And everybody talks about Ray Davies being really good with words. Yeah. He is.

And I was about to confess to you that I think I'm maybe not, words are not really the highest priority for me. Oh, not me either. I mean, I love words. I rarely know what they're saying uh-huh and it's weird because i don't process it and like i've had to recently try you know there's certain songs like there's

certain songs i know the words to yeah and blues songs there i know the words to some velvet underground songs some yeah but sometimes words aren't even easy to hear yeah i like their you know country songs i can take the words and i enjoy listening to them but but for the most part you know i i'm listening for for tone and for mood and for rhythm and for how i feel you know and it's it uh rarely until like and i'm a i'm a writer guy i like poetry but when it comes to music i'm not it's not my first thing i want to rock right right yeah you want that feeling yeah i do that feeling yeah yeah that that motion you want that feeling of emotion yeah yeah but so back to jazz for a minute i mean you're a you're a stand-up comedian yeah so so you know about improvising right but like i just recently like as of the last two days

you're getting me a good good day here that you know you hear about that yeah you hear about riffing i want to talk about that word okay can we do a little sidebar now yeah Yeah. Riffing. I always understood the riff to mean like a short repeated statement. I think that is, yeah. Like. Right. Dun-na-na-na-na. Right, right. Whatever.

Yeah, power riff. A short thing repeated. Right. You know? But then I think maybe in comedy the word took on another meaning. Oh, yeah? Which is the opposite. Mm-hmm.

Meaning improvising. Improvising. Going all over the place, never necessarily coming back. What do jazz guys call it? I don't know. I mean, in jazz, we talk about riffs being those short, repeated statements, like Ellington wrote great riffs. Right, right, the catchy thing. Riff tunes. Sure. linkedin wrote great riffs right right the catchy riff tunes sure um i don't know but anyway i feel like the it's one of those curious words that has over time changed its meaning completely uh-huh

and so i wanted to ask you like well thing have you always been aware of that word to mean yeah just going going on i thought that's what it meant and never necessarily coming back to but i knew the definition you're telling me but i never really thought that there was something. Like, I know a power riff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and they're important. You know, like people talk about the riffs that have defined rock music. Right.

Sure. But riffing, I guess, yeah, maybe it has taken on a different meaning, but it does mean improvising. So let me shift it in terms of, like i had this realization about what you and i think i might have gotten it you know in some ways from reading the amount that i read in the culturing book was that because i i write improvisationally i don't write jokes like it all happens on stage it all has to be organic it all starts with conversation it all starts with me thinking out loud and finding it that's just the way i do it i've always done it that way uh it's not an easy way to do things right but it takes a certain

amount of confidence and willingness to to you know run into the dirt yeah you know you can fucking go and then you just end up in the ditch yeah but you start to find the things that work and then like for me it's always been about like, well, there's other places that you can go further. So what I do is that if I'm on stage and I have a premise and that gets a laugh in that moment, if I'm feeling it, you just keep going. And then, and that's how, that's how I write. Like, I don't know where it comes from. I don't know where it's delivered from, but it's that moment where that happens for the first time. And'm like that that was the whole show for me like they can walk out after an hour and go like i really like the show and i'm like yeah but that one line that that was it that

that was what was delivered and i know that but like you were saying with coltrane and these cats is that once you lay down the groove and the structures there like the blues like that's i think what i'm drawing from essentially is that whatever the 145 or whatever the minors are whatever they add to that that you know that's that's the groundwork and that's where you depart from and you can land there right that's that's right that's that's the groundwork that's the uh the framework right and the could or the consensual language between a group of people and that i started to realize more concisely about what i do not to i'm not tooting my own horn it's just the way i work that you know you do it innately it's like well here's

the shit we're warmed up table set now let's go yeah and i'll come back later right right you know what i mean but you also must be really proud of certain things you've done that involve brilliant structure. Well, that's the last special I did. I was very clear about it. I'm going to repeat this shit. Yeah. And I'm going to get it tight. Yeah.

And there's going to be callbacks. Yeah. And it's all going to come around at the end. Right. And there's a, you know, there's a little bit of an arc to it. Right. It's a piece. Right.

Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. But I'm not fundamentally like that because i like i don't know if it comes from the insecurity or not i like it when it's sort of loose and like i can walk away going like i didn't think that would happen right you know but but that's an act too on it sometimes yeah yeah but in in the book what you do throughout it all is you you provide this this context of appreciation.

That's really what you're doing. And I guess what I was saying before was that even when I read a book like this, there are moments where you think that it's not so much a pressure on me as a listener or whether or not I trust you or your tone. There's something that implies like, no,, like, no, I got homework, you know, in some level in a way. So like in the sense that like I'm listening to the Spotify list and I'm enjoying it and I'm going through stuff and I'm seeing how it connects to, you know, the essay headings and, you know, what your point you're trying to make. But I think that's one of the reasons why just in general, politically, personally,

otherwise, people don't like change. They don't like new things necessarily because they're set in their ways. But I think what you provide here is this, if they look at the book as a kind of a fun process that you can open minds because it you know how many it doesn't matter people go back to it it just matters that you know you've widened the the the perception that's it right yeah and um like i mean i see that i i feel that that is its own virtue i really do like you know what what good is it to know about um cuban music if you want to know more about punk in a way it doesn't it doesn't make sense but i just feel that it gives you a wider

frame of reference having a wider frame of reference is just intrinsically good no absolutely and that but also that was the job i stepped into 20 years ago. It was like, you know, one of my predecessors was this guy, Robert Palmer. Yeah, I remember him. And he, and the people that followed him. He was a rock guy though, primarily, wasn't he? But he wrote about jazz and Cuban music and African music and whatever. And he was just, he was wide open, you know. And by the time I got there in 96, that was kind of what I was expected to do.

And it was amazing that the expectation was that, you know, I'd be writing about Ornette Coleman one day and Janet Jackson the next day. Right. You know, and a metal band. So that was part of your education. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm really grateful for that. Specialized knowledge is a weird thing. I mean, having done this kind of work for a long time,

I'm always running into people who know everything about this topic. You don't want to be that guy, though. No, I don't. No. And I'm glad those people exist because they're very, very helpful. For an hour. Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Or in small doses. Yeah. Because they're that. See, that's the nerd element of that, of the specialized nerd. It's so control-oriented and also sort of like, know i know it all yeah yeah but you're right they're useful but you know you have to limit your coffee time i also don't want to feel like i own anything yeah you know i don't want to feel like a sense of um property right about yeah yeah any of this you know um um and and, or wanting to patrol it.

Right. I just want to connect things. Yeah, yeah. You know, like I want to describe, interpret, connect. So you're gunning for the thing, like we talked about before, the one thing that if it wasn't there, everything would fall apart in music as an entirety. Yeah.

Yes. That's it. Oh, boy. That's it. Yeah. You want to pull the curtain back. You're probably, I don't know. That's going to be a lifelong thing, I think.

Well, also, again, it's like the results of the training because you go to a, we don't really write about concerts anymore in the New York Times. It's kind of weird or why is that you think um very recently the the it's been understood that the the most concert reviews don't get read widely enough so we're like is it people think like well i wasn't there or is there another one coming up that's definitely part of it yeah but i think maybe people are tired of the box with text in it called review right oh yeah they want something different yeah yeah yeah yeah so um uh anyway i you know for 20 years i go to a concert i've got my notebook i just write things down because it's a habit but i don't use practically anything right that i've written down what it comes down to the

next morning when i'm writing is i remember something just a little detail yeah one or two things and that's where i'm going to start from. The act of writing sometimes just solidifies it in the brain. Yeah. So do you dance? A little. Oh, okay. I move. Oh, good.

I move. Oh, good. Yeah, that's good. No, I mean, do I go out and dance? Do I go to clubs to dance? What do you mean, like at home, like when you're listening to your guy who listens to a lot of music yeah do you move you move around a little bit absolutely oh good yeah yeah i want to i want to know how that feels yeah yeah you know like um that's sort of what it's all about yeah you know yeah engagement on sure yeah yeah get something going yeah you

know i don't do it out out in public as much sometimes i'll do it at home a bit you know i'll feel it you know yeah i don't know why like I think someone's got to write a book about dance like this book. I think it feels like dancing is a joyous thing that we're all a little embarrassed to do. I think that if everybody danced a little bit, like maybe if there was a dance break during the day in this country, like other countries take naps, it might be helpful. That's a great idea. Dance day.

That's a really great idea. Well, it was good talking to you. Do you feel like we did it? I think we did it. Did something? I think we did it, yeah. Yes. You want to hear one song of that remixed

Get Your Ya-Ya's Out on my system? Yes, I do. All right, Ben. Thanks for talking. Thank you. out on my system? Yes, I do. Alright, Ben. Thanks for talking. Thank you. Okay, that was a pretty full episode.

I hope you all go out and buy some jazz records. Get that epic. Kamasi Washington. Before we go, go to WTFpod.com for all your WTF pod needs. No music today. I gotta go to set. I'm shooting a thing. Glow. Gorgeous ladies of wrestling.

I'll tell you more about that. I will tell you a little tidbit here at the end, but my character has a mild propensity to do a little blow occasionally. So I wanted to make sure I got that wet inside the nose vibe. So I was doing that thing that those of you who do blow know

where you take a little water and you snort a little water dump a little water in your hand or run it under the sink with your fingers and pull it up into your nose so I was doing that out in public so at least one or two people on set probably think I'm really doing blow but I'm not Boomer lives!

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