WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 745 - Katie Couric

Episode Date: September 25, 2016

America is plenty familiar with Katie Couric in the role of interviewer. But what about when the roles are reversed? Marc finds out why Katie got into journalism and gets her take on the notable moments of her career, including her live coverage of the 9/11 attacks, her tenure anchoring CBS Evening News, conducting the Sarah Palin interview, and hosting a new podcast. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fucking ears, what the fucksters, what the fucktuck fuck tuckians what the fuck orecans what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf thank you uh for listening if you're new to the podcast welcome if you've been here a while here we go again today on the show katie couric uh you know katie couric from the news and from the Today Show and from being Katie Couric. How can you not like Katie Couric? I was excited to meet Katie Couric and spend time with her because I like her so much. I wanted to get to the bottom of why I liked her. We had a nice conversation, so that's something to look forward to. Also, I want to tell you to come hang out with me and my producer Brendan McDonald in Anaheim next month. We'll be at the Now Hear This Festival. It's three days of your favorite podcast live and in one place. It's October 28th through 30th and the special WTF show with me and Brendan is on Saturday, October 29th

and there are a lot of other great shows that day like How Did This Get Made, Doug Loves Movies, Super Ego and more. Go to nowhearthisfest.com to get tickets and see the full lineup. And now you can use the offer code WTF when you buy tickets to save 25% off a general admission. That's nowhearthisfest.com, offer code WTF. So Boston, thank you for coming out to the Wilbur. I've been having great shows there the last few years, and there was a lot of comedy in town. My buddy Bobby Kelly was playing down the way. I think Maz Jabrani was somewhere. The legendary Steve Sweeney was out in some suburb doing a one-man show.

A lot of comedy. Dan Krohn opened for me, did a great job on the relatively last minute uh notice i just like to i i should give my i give my openers a little bit of notice it was actually a week but i'm glad he was able to do it he did a great job but i'll tell you man there's something traumatizing about going back to boston for me something gets fucked in my head man whoo i you know it's like it's going to where the abuser lives and that abuser was that city I mean I went to college there I started doing comedy there I've talked about this before I mean obviously I volunteered for it uh I wasn't molested by the city of Boston but a lot of

traumatic shit happened there there's a lot of stuff that happened in college that a lot of like weird elements of my personality that were chipped away at and chiseled out and created there in some respects i did a lot of searching there i went through a lot of pain there heartbreak uh disappointments but uh yes i learned i figured out who i was at at least at that point in time which was a lot of different things every year or so, you know, college. And then comedy, going, doing all those one-nighters, driving into the middle of fucking nowhere. And I get a post-traumatic stress reaction when I go to Boston. I mean, I got there late Friday night.

I mistakenly stayed at the W Hotel, which is right across from the venue. I've stayed there before primarily because it's right there, but it's a fucking nightclub at night. I get in at 12 at night, 12.50 at night. It's like 1 in the morning. The front doors are locked off. I got to go through a side door and walk through this blaring fucking nightclub that is the bar at the W.

That's the W's thing. It's fine. It's fine. Maybe I'm just too old for that shit. And that's the W's thing. It's fine. It's fine. Maybe I'm just too old for that shit. And it's not cheap, right? So I'm checking in with the guy. And I'm like, Marin. He's like, what?

And I'm like, Marc Marin. And he's like, how are you paying for this? I'm like, what? And then we're both doing what? And it's like, it's fucking ridiculous. I'm not that old a Jew where I got to be what? I'm not old manning that much to where I'm like what huh what I do it more than I like but usually it's just a habit because I can usually hear but this time it was just

just a bunch of you know young people who were overdressed trying to get fucked to shitty music right behind me and I'm just trying to check into the hotel to get some rest finally we go through that charade and then i go to my room and i open the room door and you know that feeling where you look into a hotel room you're like oh oh what's what's there's a problem it was like the bed wasn't made but the shit to make it was there certain things in the room weren't cleaned and i didn't know what was going it looked like the maid quit in the middle of doing my room like that was what sent her over the edge like fuck this and walked out and they didn't know it but then I'm like is this someone's room am I walking in I said hello then I don't know why I'm half thinking I'm gonna find a body

and then I'm gonna be blamed for it and then it's gonna be a strange ordeal a future documentary about how i was set up at the w hotel and they you know that's just really i something was just wrong and that the room didn't get clean i didn't need to take it to that level so i went downstairs and i'm on my room is not clean the guy's like what and i'm like this is not clean it looks like the maid didn't finish or something he's like huh and i'm like i need another and i was pissed i'm like dude this fucking nightclub bullshit and like i'm not this isn't a cheap fucking hotel i don't need this shit they didn't give me a better room they gave me a room with two twin beds anyway i still have that weird fear that yeah and this is years after the fact after after making my fucking bones and goddamn night clubs and pubs and bowling alleys and conference hotel conference rooms just one nighters all new

england like that's where i cut my teeth and learned how to do time as a comic and there was never a night where i wasn't afraid where i walked there was never a night where I wasn't afraid, where I walked, there was never a night where I'd walk into a situation, and either there was nine or 10 people there, which made it very difficult and sad, but I grew to appreciate that later. I don't mind a small audience.

Or there was just one table full of fucking meathead townies who were just gonna, you know, they were like the opposite of me, and they were gonna make opposite of me and they were gonna make it difficult i was scarred by that and a lot of times it didn't happen a lot of times i was surprised but anytime i go to boston there's i think there's a deep fear that i'm gonna get on stage and someone's gonna go mac and they don't worse yet they won't even know my name what the fuck is this you suck you fucking suck fuck you like i i just i i invent that guy or a table full of them when i go to boston like they're gonna they're gonna

hurt me they're gonna make this difficult i feel that the the weird old defense is coming up but i can't do that anymore like all this old fear and trauma and fucked up memories, nostalgic horror overtakes me. And it's almost like I'm up in my hotel room going, I don't know. I don't know how this is going to go. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know. I don't know how to do this. Who am I?

What am I doing? It's crazy. I guess this is just normal because I got a lot of stuff going on. But as soon as I get over to the theater, I'm like, I understand this. This is what I do. This is what I've done my entire fucking life. And I talk about it. All I got to do is plant myself in the present and fucking move through it.

I just, I think, there's part of me, I think, that needs to do that. So I'm forced to just reckon with my feelings publicly for the first 10 minutes of my show. Talk about the hotel. Talk about the old days. Make it funny in the moment. And then you get into the present. Then I arrive in my fucking skin and I show up for the riffing. And I do the bits.

And it was beautiful. Great audience in Boston. Always nice to see everybody. Thank you for coming out. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And also the W, thank you for the glass of weird chocolates with liquor in them and the bottle of vodka I couldn't drink

and a nice tall glass of orange juice that I got in my room after my shows as an apology for me walking into a room that wasn't cleaned. All right, are we good? Enough said. I had great shows. I did my first week of shooting on this new show that I'm doing, Glow, the gorgeous ladies of wrestling.

It was fun. I got to comb my hair different and look like I'm from the mid 80s. I wore bell bottoms. All the women are doing amazing. It's a very interesting world, and it's really an honor, in a way, to work with Alison Brie,

who's a spectacular actress. And it makes... You know, I'm focusing. I like working with good actors. It makes me feel like I can do it. And I think, generally, when I see myself working with good actors, they make you look better,

and that makes it exciting. And Jenji Cohen is great, Liz and Carl. Everyone's great over there. And hopefully by the end I'll know all the other dozen women's names. And they built this amazing set. They built this set where you would think wrestling would go on, learning how to wrestle, doing that. I don't know how much I can talk about yet.

Everything's good. You want to hear me and Katie Couric talking? That would be good, right? Katie Couric now has her own podcast on the Earwolf Network. You can get the Katie Couric podcast on Howl or wherever you get podcasts. It's so funny. Saying Howl is so hard for me and saying glow is so hard for me.

G-L-W-L. Tricky. I have to be very aware of it. Howl. Glow. Howl. Okay. This is me and Katie.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series. FX's Shogun. on disney plus we live and we die we control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave to ban a life fx's shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. It's a night for the whole family.

Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Couric. So when did you get here? You got here yesterday?

No, I've been here. I came for Stand Up to Cancer because that's an organization I started to really encourage collaboration instead of competition among cancer scientists. We've raised well over, I think we've raised over $500 million. Wow. I mean, they're starting to make real progress. I think understanding sort of how cancer works there, you know, immunotherapy is a really exciting field, which is bolstering the cancer immune system to quash the cancer and to kind of figure out how to attack it. Well, you asked your husband to colorectal cancer.

Yeah. And your sister to pancreatic cancer in a pretty small window of time, right? Yeah, I did. And that just must have just out of the grief and the mind blowing of that whole thing. Is that what you got? You got you so active immediately? Yeah. You know, I was so frustrated. So it must be so horrifying. I've not lost anybody. You're so lucky. Cancer. You're so, so lucky, you know, because statistically one in two men and one in three women will be diagnosed in their lifetimes with cancer of some kind with some kind of cancer and you know it was interesting because i was sort of having this great happy life and i i was married to this fantastic guy

you would have really liked him he was funny and smart and interesting and kind of quirky. And we had two little girls, five and one, and he just hadn't been feeling well. And then he was diagnosed with colorectal cancer, with stage four colon cancer, and had metastasized all over his liver. And he didn't know? Like when he went in to get diagnosed, it was stage four already? No, I think he knew something was wrong. He'd been losing weight, but everybody's always trying to lose weight. Right. He was tired, but he was traveling.

We had two little kids. Right, right. His stomach was bothering him, but he was one of those guys, like on our first date, he had a roll of Tums. Oh, really? He just always kind of had sort of a little sour stomach. So there was no way for him to really know that anything horrible was going on. No.

You know, I just think it just, you know, it didn't come into our whole sort of. You were young. It just wasn't in our sphere of possibilities. Right. And he was young. He was young, healthy. He never smoked. Yeah.

He was, you know, pretty straight arrow guy. I mean, he drank some. He never smoked pot even. Wow. I mean, he was very straight but but not but interesting you say that with a hint of disappointment well you know it's just kind of unusual to find someone who's never done that yeah and uh but he was a clean liver and but very very uh you know cool and interesting right so it's just devastating oh yeah out of nowhere out of nowhere suddenly boom yeah like suddenly how can one day completely change your life right i mean one not only one day it's like how come one hour yeah completely change your life and it was such a a whirlwind and going from he didn't even have a doctor which a lot of young men don't have doctors and it's weird see like i i know that you like had a uh you did a colonoscopy i think

you broadcast one yeah and i it i think that we're all in a certain amount of denial about that about our health in general in that we don't want to go to the doctor, even for maintenance checkups, because we don't want to know anything. Which is so moronic. It's stupid. Super moronic. Well, I mean, but if you think about it, it's not unusual for people to want to deny the reality of death. Oh, no.

And I think it may be stupid, but it's very commonplace. Right. I went and had one. Not even just colonoscopies. How about just like. Right. I wouldn't have one. Yeah. Not even just colonoscopies. How about just like so many young men don't have a doctor. Right. They don't go for physicals. And I think women, because we regularly go to the OBGYN for things like pap smears, et cetera.

Right. And you need to go when you're young to talk about birth control and all this other stuff. Yeah. You need to get a prescription. So it kind of forces you into the medical system. Right. Guys, on the other hand, aren't really- Well, yeah.

I feel all right. They're like, whatever. Yeah. And they don't have to go, but they really need to go. So it wasn't unusual that at the age of 41, Jay didn't really have a doctor. So when he felt awful. And you had health coverage. Yeah.

Right. Yeah, we were lucky. You should go to the doctor if you got it. I know. Right. But tell that to a lot of your male listeners. I know. They really need to go.

And just once a year, just like bite the bullet, go to the doctor. And that's why when Jay got sick and he was doubled over in pain because he had a tumor the size of an orange in his colon, he was completely obstructed. Oh, my God. I had to rush him to my doctor because he didn't have one. Anyway, it was horrific, as you can imagine. one it was uh anyway it was horrific as you can imagine i mean anybody who has been through something like this knows what how sort of your life is in suspended animation and you you are in this cancer bubble and you're walking and you're looking at people and you're like why are they having lunch in that restaurant don't they know my world is completely crumbling right

why are these people buying, why is this woman buying a sweater at this store? It's just the weirdest. It's like- It's a whole different time zone. You're living in a parallel universe, really. And then I guess over time, you realize that there's probably were a lot of people. Oh, so many.

And you know what? Sometimes now I'm so much more keyed in to a lot of people's private pain in general because sometimes I'll be on an airplane and someone will be kind of an asshole. And I'll be like, you know, maybe something really bad just happened. Maybe he got some terrible news. Maybe someone he loves is sick. You have no idea. And maybe he is completely stressed out.

So I kind of, I mean, I've always been a relatively empathetic person, but I think it's just very interesting. You do not, you have no idea what's going on in people's lives. And this facade that they present to the outside world is oftentimes very misleading. Yeah. And it's never, it's not as much about you as you think. Almost always when you assume the worst that people are thinking about you, they have no idea. It has nothing to do with you. But on the other side of that,

some people are just assholes. That's true. You're right about that, yes. But yeah, I need to go to the doctor. I have to get a checkup. Well, will you? Well, yeah, of course I will. How old are you? I'm 52. Oh, that's right. I read that you? Well, yeah, of course I will. How old are you?

I'm 52. Oh, that's right. I read that. Yeah. You did some research, Katie? I did. I did. I read about you.

Did you listen to any episodes? No. Good. That's good. I was going to, and then I was like, I was so crazed yesterday. I was working. I was reading all this stuff. You're thinking you were going to cram some interviews?

I was going to. No, but I read a really nice piece about you that talked about your background and sort of all the things that you've been through and Sam Kennison. Oh, yeah, sure. You've had a very interesting life, and I'm really happy things seem to be going well for you now. Yeah, I don't know how to handle it. Really? It's a luxury problem, but yeah. Are you having trouble adjusting to success?

Yeah, a little bit. I bet. Well, because I don't spend money and I don't really see a need to. But then all of a sudden you feel you want to do your part for the economy. So what? You've been going to Target? I'm going to buy some stuff. Just buy things that I don't necessarily need.

I don't know. That's what Robert Reich says. That's what we need the middle class to do, to buy. Sure, get out there, do your part, buy some stuff. Keep the economy strong. I just don't know what I need, but that's not, I'll adjust to success. I think my fear is that, how long does it really last?

I mean, when is it going to- It's not about things though. Isn't it about like just kind of having fun doing what you're doing? Well, yes. Well, I think that the part of whatever your sense of self is based on accomplishment. You know, if you don't quite accomplish that, or if your accomplishments aren't relevant or making an impact, and you don't acknowledge them, that's a horrible insecurity to go through

life with. Yeah. In the sense that you're like, what have I done? Nothing. Yeah. I mean, everybody could feel that way, right sense that you're like, what have I done? Nothing. Yeah. I mean, everybody could feel that way, right? I guess. But I mean.

I feel that way. Do you really? Yeah, I do. I do. You raised $105 million for cancer last night. You know, I think everybody who's driven and trying to do stuff out there, I think they always feel like, God, I haven't done enough. Well, then they ought to go a little deeper because there's something deeper uh screwed up about them yeah i i i think you're right on the other hand if

it propels them to continue to do yeah but we're things impactful but then yeah you're right at what point but do you have a good time break i do but did you always yeah see that well you're different than i'm just wired that's why people like you i don't know do they yeah i don't know some are you kidding don't well i mean maybe but i let's let's go back to this ambition business so where where'd you grow up and why you know what what where did that start how did you get let's let's break it down first grow up where'd you do it i i was on i'm where i did it grow up where'd you do it caller what's your What's your question? Childhood, go. Yeah, exactly. I grew up in Arlington, Virginia.

Oh, yeah? That's nice. That's fancy. Fancy. Isn't it? Or maybe I'm thinking of- It wasn't particularly fancy. I grew up in a probably decidedly middle to upper middle class house.

I think my dad bought our house in 1956 for like $30,000. Nice. Good deal. And my dad was a, he had been a print reporter for United Press. So he was a journalist? Yeah, at the Atlanta Constitution. He covered politics. And he had four kids.

And I think then he came to Washington and worked for United Press. But it was very hard to raise four kids on a newspaper man's salary. What did your other siblings end up doing? So my older sister, Emily, who was the one who passed away from pancreatic cancer. So she went to Smith College, where both my sisters went. That's a good one. In Northampton. Yeah.

Wasn't that an all-girls school at one time? It was an all-girls school. It still is. It is still. Yeah. So Emily got a graduate degree in education. She taught private school while her husband was going through Harvard Law School. And then she ended up working for the Department of Labor as a writer.

Then she ended up working as a writer for Legal Times of Washington, an inadmissible column. Then she wrote a couple of books about lawyers. And then she moved to Charlottesville because she got divorced. She married the head of cardiology at UVA. And then she ended up being on the school board and running for state senator. She was running for lieutenant governor with Mark Warner. Right.

When she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. I mean, people in Virginia really liked my sister. diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And she was, I mean, people in Virginia really liked my sister. She was so smart. And she was, you know, just an incredibly good campaigner and thoughtful and compassionate and a Democrat in Virginia. So she had to be pretty moderate to be a Democrat in Virginia. And so she was diagnosed and Tim Kaine took her place. Really? Yeah. And so. He seems like a good guy. Yeah.

I think that they were very fond of each other. Oh, yeah. And so anyway, that was my sister, Emily. My sister, Clara, who I call Kiki, who we grew up calling her Kiki, is a landscape architect in Boston. And went to Smith also in Harvard School of Design. So she does. And is very smart and interesting. She does a lot of. Corporate spaces, yards.

She does residential projects, but she also does corporate, but she also does city projects like Harriet Tubman Park in Boston and things like that. When she comes over to visit you, does she touch your plants? She actually did my yard at my house. Yeah, I hired her. Yeah, this is not healthy. Are you watering this enough? That kind of stuff? No, she doesn't do that. But she did sort of plan my house, which was really nice and fun to work with her. And then my brother's a CFO. He went to UVA where I went and is a CPA, but he's a Cfo at a big financial firm in in uh northern virginia and you're katie couric the journalist and amazing television personality is all the

kids in my family did did pretty well which is nice and and we have just incredible parents there's one bad one yeah there's usually a black sheep but we don't really have one but what did you like what like? I don't know. I like you immediately. I never met you before that other night, and I met you for five minutes. And I'm like, oh, she's so Katie Couric-like. What does that mean? You know exactly what I mean.

And I thought, he's so Marc Maron-like. Well, no, but some people you see, and then you meet them backstage at something, and you're like, oh, wow, she's nothing. She's nothing like that person. There's no there there. Yeah. What is that? But you were like fully formed. I don't know.

I think if I've been, you know, at all successful doing what I do, it's because I'm kind of very similar in my public persona, whatever, as I am in real life. I think that's a good observation. I mean, that authenticity work is so overused, but I do think it's one of those things like you can smell it. You can, and I don't know how to do it any other way. I don't know how people, I mean, obviously we behave differently

in different outfits at different situations. I mean, you have to rise to the occasion, but you can't become a different person. Like those people that are hiding monsters, they're problematic. Yeah. But I have to assume you were popular always. That's what I'm projecting onto you.

I mean. Like, in high school, you were like. I think I was fairly well-liked, you know. I don't think I was ever. I tried not to be. I tried to be a very inclusive person. Like, I wasn't clicky, I don't think. I was, I like to be friends with everybody, different people.

You weren't clicky? No one thought you were like, no, there's Katie. Well, maybe a little bit because I was a cheerleader and all that garbage. Of course you were. I know, God. Were you the head cheerleader? No, I wasn't. Oh, what'd you think of that girl?

I thought she was fine, whatever. Oh, come on. Yeah, I've always been a little bit of a rebel, a teeny bit. You know, I've kind of don't like authority. Right. I, you know. So you didn't like the head cheerleader. Let's be honest.

I didn't mind her. Actually, I have a funny story about that. Like in eighth grade, they were, they, you know, normally the cheerleading other cheerleaders would pick the captain but for some reason that year the gym teacher who didn't like me didn't like me at all yeah decided she was going to pick the captain of the cheerleaders and it really was an assault to my sense of the democratic process oh really it's a political issue yes yes and so she did not pick me she picked someone else and I remember just being so distraught, but really more distraught about the unfairness of the process. Right.

And did you have the harbor thoughts of like, you're not the real head cheerleader? No, I didn't care at that point. I was just really furious at the teacher because I thought it was a piece of power. Mrs. Beetz. What the hell happened to her? Yeah, exactly. But did you think, like, sometimes teachers can be very, I mean, obviously, they're incredible teachers out there, so I'm not indicting the teaching profession at all. But sometimes teachers, I think, get this creepy sense of power.

Or a chip on their shoulder. Yeah. Yeah, but also kind of like, I think, laud their power in weird ways. So that was an example of that. Yeah, and you don't know whether it was an intentional teaching of a lesson or just some sort of weird petty jealousy. Who knows why they make those kind of decisions? Yeah, ego trip, weirdness. Well, yeah, I mean, they're just people. Yeah.

I mean, I was a complete nuisance in school and whatever, you know, I was thrown out of a school. I was a smart ass. I was impossible. Yeah. Not a good student and a disruptive force all around. And it wasn't until later that I realized, like, I cause problems for teachers. Like, I was an obstacle to other children's education. Well, I can see why a teacher may not put up with that. But then there's some other sort of psychological mind gains where they favor one kid over the other. They're kind of working behind the scenes. That stuff is really creepy to me. Yeah. Well, I mean, maybe that's why you got into political reporting maybe that's all that's that is the beginning of it it happens at every level katie you know there's politics every every level everywhere well what's what well what do you think that that teacher did you were you a smart ass did you did you uh rubber the wrong way did

you come on you usurped her power that's usually what i might have usurped a little of her power. I might have not been sort of submissive enough or subservient enough. Right, sure, right. Maybe I, I don't know. You're the one who didn't want to do the pushups? No, I don't know. I can't remember. I think I, I don't know.

You're blocking it. I'm not, I don't remember. You were horrible, come on. But I had a very nice, nice kind of normal, happy childhood. My parents were, you know, I feel like they were involved, but not overly involved. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, I guess, because of my own daughters. Yeah. How old are they?

And this whole 20 and 25. Oh, so they're, yeah. And this whole thing about helicopter parenting. What does that mean again? That just means just being too close to your kids, kind of micromanaging everything they do, having them be sort of really a codependency. Oh, absolutely. No boundaries. No boundaries for children. And my husband would say that my older daughter and I are uber, uber close.

Yeah. My husband would say that my older daughter and I are uber, uber close. But I think working and having a really busy career was really positive for my kids because I wasn't micromanaging everything they did. And they've had to kind of learn on their own. That's what my parents did. I don't know about yours, but- Oh, I know about mine. Yeah, you're-

They were very self-involved. And I don't know how busy they, my dad was always very busy. They were the other extreme. Your dad was a surgeon, right? He was a surgeon and my mother was around. She did, she had a boutique for a while. She's painter for a while, but they were very much, they were not great. They were fundamentally not nurturing people.

Really? Yeah. They weren't mean. They were just about them. So the reaction was like, we, me and my brother had to react to them. They worried a lot. But that was as far as the. They worried a lot about you guys?

Yeah, yeah. But I think it was more about them. Does that make sense? Yeah. What am I going to do if that kid doesn't come home? Yeah. Self-involved. That's a good word for it.

Yeah. It's a weird balance, though, you know, because you don't want to be so. You don't want to. You know, you want to have your own life. I don't have this whole sort of separation. But they become people. And, you know, right. I mean, there's nothing they're going to become it no matter what. Right, right.

You're cognizant and capable and everything's OK health wise. They're out in the world and whatever they're going to make up for whatever you're not doing, either in a good way or a bad way. Yeah. But I just think, you know, I think my parents kind of gave me the room to make mistakes and to do things on my own and not on top of me all the time. So I could really fully form as a full individual. And I think, you know, I hope that that's what I've done for my kids. Well, the youngest kids got it a little rough. You got to fight a little bit because they've been through everything already. So, you know, I think the youngest kid is the luckiest one because they're so exhausted. They don't really care anymore. They let you get away

with murder. I mean, my parents ran a tight ship. Right. And, you know, my siblings all made really good grades and I was kind of a little bit of a goof off. Yeah. And a terrible procrastinator. Well, are you a procrastinator yeah i but that's primarily out of some sort of weird dread or anxiety i think it's a weird thing like i like the adrenaline rush of being a procrastinator i like i like if i'm going out and i have to get ready and i know i it's going to take me an hour i'll wait and only give myself a half hour because I like the rush of being stressed. Is that screwed up?

You live on the edge, Katie Currie. No, I don't. You're just waiting until the last minute. Shut up. Well, I could tell you about my heroin addiction. That would be fabulous. I'd post this this afternoon with that information. No, but you know what?

I think there's a weird thing about people who who are adrenaline junkies well i think i what i get out of it is that like i'm the exact same way but talking about authenticity is when you do that you have no choice but to be in the present a lot because you're you know you're waiting till that whatever the last minute is i have to assume that when you prepare an interview i don't i don't this is what it looks like for me just a lot of scribbles in a collage. That's good. Yeah. But I haven't even done any of it yet. So that's impressive though. Is it? Yeah. You know, I prepared more for you. Really? Well, yeah, because like, there's like, there's a couple of people I prepare for and I hang them up. The one on the left was Keith Richards and that one's, I think, um, Neil Young.

But my, my, the point was that when you don't prepare or you wait till the last minute to prepare, that adrenaline carries you right into whatever it is that you were not preparing for or procrastinating, and it keeps it going. Yeah. It keeps the rush going. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

I think so. It kind of makes it fresh. So when did you decide to be a reporter? Well, my dad sort of encouraged me to pursue a profession where I would be writing because that was the one thing I could do well. Right. I wrote pretty well. And I think I was sort of bought into this whole girls aren't good at math.

Remember they had a Barbie that said, I hate math. And I think- You believed Barbie. I mean, I got a two instead of one in Miss Lowry's class in first grade at math. Remember they had a Barbie that said, I hate math. And I think, I mean, I got a two instead of one in Ms. Lowry's class in first grade in math. And I was so devastated. I remember getting off the bus at the corner, running all the way down to my house and crying to my mom, because I think even at six, I was a bit of a perfectionist. I wanted to do well in school. And I think that screwed me up for math for the rest of my days. But you couldn't hang that on her personality because math is pretty much, you know, just the numbers. You couldn't say she had something against you.

No, no, no, no. Yes, I'm not blaming teachers for any of my failings, but just Mrs. Beets, and I'm still pissed at her. Well, gym teachers are their own thing. Yeah. So I was always pretty good at writing. And as I said, I could do it quickly and under pressure because I was a procrastinator. So my dad encouraged me to pursue journalism. And then I wrote for my college newspaper. And then during college, I worked at radio stations in Washington. I worked with Carl Castle. Do you remember Carl? Yeah. He was-

Wait, wait, don't tell me. Sure. At WAVA. He's so nice. He was the nicest man. Is he retired? Yeah, he's retired. Well, because I know what's his name, does it now?

The wait, wait, don't tell me. But Carl Castle, I know the name forever on NPR. Wonderful guy. And so I worked at different radio stations. Doing what, copy? No, I actually did a little reporting. Got on the mic? No, I didn't do that because I was 18, 19 years old, so they wouldn't let me do that.

But I was an intern before their internships were so ubiquitous. And and so I did something that you were actually there to learn, not just there to provide free labor. Yeah, exactly. And and so I did that. And then when I graduated from college, he said, you know, once you get a job at the Washington Post or why don't you do this or that? And I decided, I think I actually did apply for a job at the Post and didn't get it. And then I got a job at ABC News in Washington. That was your first gig? a gopher grunt making coffee, answering the phone, you know, Xeroxing, changing the teletype and the wire machines with little white gloves. I mean, that's how old I am, Mark.

Shoot me. And then I decided, you know, I like to write. I like people. I'd like to be a reporter and I'd like to be on air. And I was horrible, horrible, horrible. But I slowly worked my way up. I went to CNN and they give me an opportunity to do some on-air stuff. But it fits your personality, too, in terms of that it's all very immediate.

Like, you know, you got, you know, story breaks that day. You got to get it together. Yeah. And they sent me out to Marion Barry to cover him, the mayor of Washington, D.C., who had a lot of issues. That was exciting. Did you party? Yeah. Marion and I.

Yeah. Yeah. With John DeLorean. Yeah. You know, CNN was very new. Everyone called it the chicken, called it chicken noodle news and sort of. That was where they just repeat top stories in cycles all night long. Yeah, well, you know, well, it was just a brand new operation. So they were pretty much saying, you know, to the janitor, hey, you want to report from Capitol Hill? Are you available? So they said to me, hey, do you want to this

bureau chief at the time who's since passed away, do you want to, this bureau chief at the time, who's since passed away, Stuart Lurie, who had been at the Chicago Sun-Times, he said, hey, Katie, do you want to every morning say what the president's doing at the White House? So I was like, sure. And that's just public information. You just got to read that off the-

Right, pretty much off the wires, right? They do the schedule. So I went there and I was like 23 years old and I looked really young because I always kind of had a young face back in the day. So I went and I was like, today, President Reagan will be meeting with his national security advisors, the big new Brzezinski. And I was so bad. And I came back and the president of CNN called the assignment desk and said, we never want her on the air again. It was so crushing. And I was like, oh, shit. So I ended up. Did you get all dressed up and everything? mirror. I think I was living with my mom and dad at the time. So anyway, so that was an inauspicious

beginning of my reporting career. But I kept sort of, I kept at it. And then I was a producer. And then while I was a producer, I worked with these anchors who gave me some opportunities to do stuff. And then I realized if I was ever going to be considered a full fledged reporter, because I think if you started a place at an entry level they never really see you as anything other than that entry level position did you have a journalism degree no I I majored in English and history American Studies at UVA so I did a lot of writing and but no I didn't you had to learn on the job I mean it's not you know listen it's yeah I mean it's not that complicated it kind of is I don't know why I make it more complicated because I've been called a journalist before, but I don't ever accept that.

Yeah, I mean. Who, what, when, where, why? Yeah, I mean, I think you have to be able to tell a story and write and put something together. Fact check. And when my dad had me talk to people, yes, of course, when my dad had me talk to people they all said you don't need to go to journalism school that teaches you how to write but it doesn't teach you what to write about so I wanted to get a good overall liberal arts education I wish I had taken more economics classes for example right but I took a lot of history I took some political science I took English And so I didn't go to journalism school.

But with that, you can fill in the gaps as you, you know, even if you're just reporting the president's schedule. Eventually, when you are a reporter, you have to become educated in the economy and in, you know, global affairs, foreign policy. Well, you have to kind of be, I always say you have to be five miles wide and an inch deep. You know, I mean, if you're a generalist. I've never heard that. Right? So you don't necessarily, I mean, that's why I admire people. Is that a word, generalist?

Yeah, I think so. I like it. Yeah. But it's sort of like you know a little bit about everything and not a lot about anything. But that's when you can just go, what do you think? Yeah. To whoever you're talking to. Yeah, exactly.

You know, just enough to bait the person you're talking to to explain it properly yeah yeah that's I know that trick but uh so anyway so then I then I started reporting but you know when I worked at those radio stations I learned how to do interviews and put sound bites in and kind of I I did that and then just writing from my paper I did interviews and wrote pieces but where were you first standing in the street during bad weather with a mic? Well, my first real reporting job was at WTVJ in Miami. Miami? Miami, yeah. So that was a great market because it was during the days of Miami Vice.

There were a lot of drug stories, tons of immigration stories. And a lot of people who worked in local news in Miami would go on into national news. Why? Because it was like an initiation of baptism? No, I think because so many of the local Miami stories had to do with national issues. You know, like I said, drugs, immigration, crime, all that stuff that wasn't just very specific to that city. Did you do a lot of interviews with the with the silhouette and the garbled voice no not too many no but i did like you know the body in the car and you know

i was on the crime scene yeah crime scene stuff and uh yeah i did a lot of you remember your first crime scene i don't remember it they kind kind of blur together. Like bullets? No, I just remember, you know, you see that yellow tape and you see a dead body. And they go, okay, I'm ready. You got my earpiece in. Yeah. No, I think, you know, you look at it and you see what's happened. And you see the collateral damage of that.

And you think that was somebody's brother or somebody's kid. Yeah. You know, I try not to be that jaded to think, oh, you know, because I wasn't doing crime all the time. Right. Yeah. You didn't have like a thousand yard stare from seeing so much death and destruction. You have to have a lot of humanity to be a good reporter. You have to not see it as just, oh, this is my two, two minute and 10 second story on the local news. Like this, these are actual people. Right. And it does. And then it becomes sort of an as a local news reporter. Because you did good in Miami.

At WRC. You know, I didn't want to stay in Miami necessarily, even though I love the town. I sort of wanted to be a national correspondent somewhere. I just wanted to be a reporter somewhere. Right, right. But not local. You wanted to be big time, right? Well, I wanted to work at a network because I'd worked at ABC at the network level. As opposed to an affiliate. Yeah. Right. So I went to Washington and I'll never forget this story. These girls were driving in their car and they were in front of a dump truck full of

hot asphalt. And I don't know what had happened, but somehow there was an accident and all the asphalt fell on their car and fell on them and killed them. And these were two high school girls. I think they were in Maryland, like Montgomery County. And I had to knock on the door of one of the girls' parents' house, one of the girls' houses. And I'll never forget the mom answering the door. And I mean, how grossly intrusive was that?

And yet she let me in and she showed me a whole photo album of her daughter. And that's when I realized that with the right approach, I mean, I think journalists and reporters can be absolutely revolting, believe me. And, you know, I always say I hate the media, but I am one. But I realized that this somehow was helpful to her. This was cathartic for her. And I had that experience actually throughout my career where someone talks about loss. And I've interviewed a lot of people in tragic situations. And in a way, I think it validates the life lost.

And it allows people to share something and allows them to kind of feel there's this community of grief. feel there's this community of grief. Because I've always wondered, gosh, why would someone want to talk to somebody like me after something terrible had happened to them? Right. But I think in a weird way, it can be healing. Right. For a lot of reasons, one of them being that their loss wasn't for nothing.

Right. Right? That it's been witnessed and that their loss wasn't for nothing. Right. Right? That it's been witnessed and that there are feelings connected to it and a life connected to it that should be seen in a way. And valued. Right. That life should be valued and validated. Well, that's an amazing thing to realize for you that you're the kind of person that people feel comfortable around yeah I did that why think register I think well I mean I

think you know you you have to have true empathy and not that kind of feigned TV empathy you have to actually you have to care about other people. And, you know, for better or for worse, I do. Right. And, yeah, you can't really fake that. Right? Yeah. Well, you can, but it's not attractive. I know, but it comes off.

Yeah, and I think that some journalists, all they're thinking about is the next question or what are they driving at. Or how they're presenting themselves. I mean, I think television puts a lot of pressure on people because no matter how genuine you are, there is a bit of a performance to it, right? You can't stop talking, really. You're on TV, so you can't sit there.

Or you're just kind of very self-aware. It's not like us even talking here. It's like you have this whole sort of visual presentation where people are looking at your affect and looking at your... Well, think about live television or like on the Today Show. So sometimes I would feel this way and I would feel, you know, I would feel this way and yet, and I would feel empathy, but I would also be kind of keenly aware that my empathy was being translated, which would make my empathy feel less sincere to me. Right, right, right, right.

And you just sit there hearing yourself do it and be like, oh, this doesn't feel. Or, you know, gosh, yeah. Yeah, this is, I'm not. Yeah. What did you think? You know what I mean? It's just hard. It's hard to stay gold, Pony. Well, but it really is a matter of staying connected, though. I mean, if you stay in the moment with the feelings, like, you know, I do it all the time.

And I don't ask. I'm not digging for something. But, I mean, if you stay connected to the person and you're listening, whatever you are is going to be present with you. Right, that's true. And if you kind of block out all the other external stuff. And that happens.

That can happen in a TV studio. It can happen anywhere. If you just, it's sort of a weird thing. You gotta lock into somebody, don't you? You really do. Because if you drift, I hate when that happens because it doesn't happen to me often. But if I'm playing with the volume or something or I'm even thinking ahead at all,

there'll be a second or two where I'm like, what did she just say? That happens to me once in a while where you're like, suddenly. For me, it's less. Sometimes I get panic stricken like, oh, God, oh, God, oh, God. What is my next question? I just forgot my next question. I knew what I wanted to ask, but now suddenly it's kind of slipped away. It's somewhere kind of above me.

How can I bring that back? Right. Yeah. So, okay, wait. Now we got to get, let's get to. I know we can't talk about politics, but can I, I mean, what do you think? No, sure we can. What do you think of what's going on in this country?

What do you think? I find it depressing and anxiety producing and understandable. Right. And I do feel like there are two Americas, as cliche as that sounds. And, you know, I've been trying to kind of figure out the underlying causes of a Trump candidacy and the people who are fueling it and some of their frustrations and concerns. I was just reading this New York Times piece about the people that are voting for him. Right. Yeah. That's sort of about about what it is that appeals to to them about him or what it is about their, you know, their massive discontent. And I think a lot of it is about globalization. A lot of it is about kind of, you know, this liberal urban ethos juxtaposed with a less sort of perhaps sophisticated and more kind of real-world problems that some of these people are having. Right, but they also feel like their way of life and their possibilities for a future in that way of life that they thought that they could get is gone.

Absolutely. And they feel that that, you know, specifically, you know, white working class, you know, possibilities we went from an agrarian to an industrial society, suddenly, I mean, it's been happening for quite a while. We're going from not only an industrial to a technological society, but then globalization is exacerbating all the, you know, the impact of that. And it's a friend of mine said with globalization, they're winners and losers. And maybe we didn't pay enough attention to the losers. Or maybe we didn't pay enough attention to the idea of the free market actually functioning the way it's been promised and not really taking into mind what greed would imply and what, you know, sort of competitive bidding on government contracts would imply and, you know, how these corporations have, you know, really no sense of compassion, not in a broad sense, not, you know, there maybe there are some that treat their workers properly, but. Also the, you know, the demise of union, unions, instant

gratification for shareholders, like with quarterly reports and profits and all the pressure that that brings to bear. And making garbage, you know, like the whole sort of planned obsolescence model of, you know, nothing is designed to last anymore. Everything has to have turnover. So, you know, the idea that, you know, all these products, no one has any real faith in any products anymore. You just know that even the best stuff that used to mean something is just garbage. You know what I think is interesting, though? They talk a lot about millennials and people bitch sometimes about, you know, people in their 20s and early 30s. One of the things that I really appreciate

about millennials is this sort of, they don't seem to have this attachment to things. Now, maybe that's because they don't necessarily have families yet, right? But they want experiences versus possessions. I guess. I don't really know but like but on in a way that's more immediate to what you do i mean you know like when when politics happens every political cycle i mean you know the players there's you know there's a handful of the same guys that you know run these campaigns there's a certain cynicism around political

consultants that don't even really consider leadership or what's better for people or what's good for people. I mean, you know, these guys, I mean, and in this campaign with Trump, a lot of the regular old dudes are not the dudes that are showing up to help him, which is interesting. But you also saw the entire news machine change. I mean, I mean, this was all in your lifetime. I mean, there was a time I've been saying on stage, like, I don't want to seem old-fashioned, but I kind of miss there just being three networks. You know, maybe we weren't getting all the information, but at least there was a community around the information. I agree. the landscape is so diffused and fragmented, there's this, you know, this kind of sense of an American community has eroded because people just are

in their own little silos of community. Sometimes that's great, obviously. And that's a direct manifestation of the internet. They can cherry pick their information that fits their ideology, whether it's true or not. Well, as I said to, I think the other day, a friend of mine said, people want affirmation, not information. And so, but I know what you mean.

Like, I do think there are a few of those big events, like some of them might be, I don't know, the VMAs or the Oscars or a big, or the Super Bowl or the Olympics, I think in some cases, where you kind of feel that there's this national community all sort of talking about the same thing or thinking about the same thing. But I think a lot of that has been lost with all the all the different places. And I feel completely overwhelmed with information all the time and anxiety ridden that I'm not that I'm not consuming enough, even though I consume a lot. And even the Today Show, to a certain degree, is in some ways more important to people than whatever information they're going to glean or however their anger or economic discomfort is going to be guided by misinformation through political campaigns and propagandists, right? So, like, that's one of the decisions i made here was to deal with existential issues and like my mother's relationship with the today show was was daily you know i would wake up and it would be on people you know women i think primarily they would turn it on why they got us ready for school and did all their things and they check in here and there and there was just that

process but it engaged them with a conversation that was a human conversation. And I think that part of what you do and what you're good at is in that immediacy of talking to other people, that sense of community is genuine. And that as things get more confused and political lines are drawn and people have the information

that they're gonna use to fight with each other, whatever. Yeah, those kinds of forums become more important. Yeah. But it doesn't really, everyone's frustrated. Everyone's lost. Everyone's a little sad and everyone feels a little detached. Right. And that's only getting worse in a way. So how do you fix that? You're supposed you're supposed to know Katie, you're Katie Couric. I don't know. You were on the news. But I don't think that's gonna, I don't think that's gonna change.

I don't know. You know, I do, I do, I work at Yahoo and I do interviews and pieces and stories for them. And I know that like I interviewed DJ Khaled and I think it was watched by 3 million plus people. Right. But it 3 million plus people, right? Right. But it's weird because people, I think because people watch it at different times,

and the consumption habits are so different, I don't necessarily feel like, oh, I did this interview, and all of us are kind of watching it together. And so something feels a little lost in that. Right. We're all sharing something, and we're sharing it at the same time. I just, I can't help but think that people are like, you know, if I don't talk about politics with somebody, which I don't, that when I meet people and I get a sense of who they are and their feelings, you know, that when you have that human reaction, that interaction that's relatively uncluttered by things that they can push their anger through.

You can feel that we're not that much different. No. And that's one of the problems. I just interviewed Joe Biden after stand up to cancer. And, you know, this is not a new a new observation, but it bears repeating. You know, we were talking and it's something that, you know, I've talked to a million people in Washington about. But the senators used to have lunch together. Now they don't have like a dining room. You know, I remember when I was younger, I would be so excited to go in there and eat Senate bean soup. It was very exciting.

It was like, you know, Campbell's. Yeah, yeah. What was that? Bean with bacon. Bean with bacon. I used to love that soup when I was little. But anyway, that was pretty much what it was, maybe a glorified version of that. And he was saying, you know, nobody spends time together.

Nobody is at, you know, picnics together or baseball games. They're all going back to their districts. They're all raising money for their next campaign. So I think this kind of detachment that you talk about, that individual sort of feel in this current landscape, you're seeing it among our lawmakers. And they're not kind of having these shared common experiences that really are part and parcel of compromise and working things out. They can just be, they can kind of depersonalize each other, right? And demonize each other. It's much easier to demonize someone youize each other, right? And demonize each other.

It's much easier to demonize someone you don't know, right? And that's why I think like social media has become such a cesspool because, you know, if you don't know the person, you can just say whatever you want. And if you're anonymous and, you know, I think, I mean, I don't know what can be done about that. But it's just like the floodgates of vitriol have been opened. I said that. And it's just like, how do you put that genie back in the bottle, which is mixing metaphors, I know. Sure. I've been saying on stage recently, it's sort of like, you know, I think it was better when everyone didn't have a voice.

Yeah. Yeah. No. The good news about the internet is everyone has a voice. The bad news about the internet is everyone has a voice the bad news about the internet is everybody has a voice and there are a lot of people quite frankly maybe who shouldn't have voices is that a terrible thing to say but i mean like that on a democratic level yes i hear you but you know horrible anti-semites or racists or people you know who are just but but i think that the qualification has to be like you

can have your voice but put your name on it because so much of it is anonymous and oh no of course of course nobody would ever say that stuff own it to you in person but it's i think it's a i think it's symptomatic of people's powerlessness and i think it's symptomatic of sort of the celebrity culture, right? And, you know, who becomes known, who doesn't? You know, why is that a goal, right? I also think there's something to do with the detachment from the Internet. There's a generation of people, maybe they're millennials or maybe not, and there's some people that have learned to use the Internet. But for some reason, when it's on the screen, there is almost a

game quality to it that you're not necessarily going to attach human feelings to how you engage with that screen. That, you know, you can see a celebrity, you can do this or that, and there's this whole, their defense is always sort of like, well, then get off the internet if you can't take it, is that I don't think that there is a real connection for some people between like you suck or, you know, dirty Jews or whatever, that that's going to influence a human being or have any real repercussions. They're just sort of doing it.

And if they get a reaction, whatever it is, they're like, yeah, I won. I've got one. I know, but I don't know. How can people think that? I don't know. I just would never i mean i might have a conversation with somebody or i mean i don't really think i've done this online but yeah i've done it i guess with with yes i have done it online i take it back but i

just mean uh you know i wouldn't necessarily uh initiate a conversation but i don't i don't understand how people can think their words don't matter and that there isn't a human being on the other end of that well i mean well you you can though because in a sense we just talked about the the people that are angry enough to to support trump without uh without any like there's nothing that guy can say that's going to make certain people say like nah that's it i mean he literally said i love vladimir putin if he said that 20 years ago that would have been the end man it would have been over but these people are just sort of like yeah it's trump you know so there is a detachment right there right you know they they feel detached and angry so fuck you but I also wonder if, like,

the ramifications of a statement like that are clear. Well, people's intelligence, and especially people who are just fueled by anger and misinformation, what does clear mean? You know, I mean, most people vote for presidents because they're like,

I like that guy. No, it's a very visceral thing, I know. Yeah, but wait, I don't want to miss large chunks of certain things here. So you did the Today Show for a long time. Back to my career. Well, no, I have a reason. Yes, yes, sorry, sorry.

Okay, I did the Today Show for 15 years. I was a reporter, and then I worked at the Pentagon as a deputy Pentagon correspondent with this wonderful guy named Fred Francis. But what I'm saying is there's a big shift from reporting to hosting to becoming a personality. Right. And I think that's sort of what I was poking around at, and that they are the same. But there's definitely a shift from doing from doing you know what is fundamentally an entertainment

show the today show in a lot of ways well i i would take issue with that mark marin i think when i did it uh i and i think still there's some i'm not saying it's a bad thing no no no i i know but you know we did a lot of very serious interviews on the today show i started with brian gumbumbel and then worked with Matt. And we did a lot of politics. You guys pals still? Yeah, yeah. With both of them.

No, of course. Yeah, and I did presidential interviews. I interviewed people on Capitol Hill. We did big issues. So, I mean, yes, I think it was hopefully entertaining, but it wasn't like da-da-da-da-da-da. No, no, of course. We did no of course there was an element of that yeah well maybe yeah i mean as it as the morning went on it got lighter yeah but we did a lot of really serious important breaking news breaking news but also important interviews

about a whole host of subjects well that was what's yeah i i know i wasn't i didn't mean to trivialize and i and i to be honest with you, I didn't. Do I sound defensive? A little, and Katie Couric defensive, which was, I take issue with that. It squeezed me. But also there, you know, what was, we were reminded of yesterday is that you were on the air on the Today Show when those planes hit those buildings. Yes, and they replay that every year on MSNBC. And sometimes I'll listen to a little bit of it, and I'll be like, it'll be surreal watching myself, watching the events unfold.

And, God, that was just, I've never felt such enormous responsibility in my life. I mean, I was terrified. I thought the world was coming to an end. Yeah. You know, I was just, you know, as one plane, then another plane, and then another. You know, I mean, it's just sort of you thought, where is this going to end? At the time, my boyfriend at the time was flying from New York to Los Angeles.

I was worried about, like, is he on one of these planes? You know, I had friends who had husbands or wives who worked in the World Trade. I mean, it was just, it was so scary. And you were on the air when they fell? I was on the air when it happened, when at the very beginning till the, when they fell, I think I was on the air till like five o'clock. I think I was on the air till like five o'clock. Oh my God. I think I was on the air till like four o'clock in the afternoon covering that.

And the horrible and amazing thing is is that with all your experience in reporting and also having the dialogue with Matt and having the today, everything that you did

led up to that moment and enabled you to handle it. I think that. I mean, that's a tremendous responsibility. I think a lot of people honestly could have handled it. I think it was just you're there and you know that something horrible has happened, that people are desperate for information. And you're desperate for information too. And so you're just trying to navigate all the different sources. And a lot of it is just

kind of, you know, you're still on television. So you can't, you know, you can't kind of, you can't forget that, that you're still presenting. Can't freak out and cry. Right. Well, you can't freak out and cry or you can't be like, you know, running off and trying to get information. I mean, it's all kind of happening. You're the front person, right? So it's really like being a conductor of an orchestra and listening to people talk in your ear and figuring out when you're going to go and how to ask the right questions and how to bring in information. I mean, it's just, it's really just kind of, you have to organize things mentally at, in real time. And that I think, and knowing that, that people are, are, are desperate and, you know, so it's, it's challenging, but, but anyone I think with,

but you also, you know, you want to have that, I mean, this was a national tragedy of epic proportions. So you also want to be able to hold on to your humanity as well. And, you know, I remember my hand was shaking like a leaf when that happened. And when that second plane, I mean, you almost felt like you were watching an Arnold Schwarzenegger disaster movie. It was so hard to wrap your head around what was happening. And I'm such a weird glass half full person, as you I know can tell. And I remember thinking, thank goodness it's before nine o'clock and not many people are at work left or at work yet. Because I was thinking where people work nine to five, you know, and and of course, that was completely wrong.

And and then I thought, oh, some guy in a private plane had a heart attack. Oh, I hope, you know, I guess your brain just wanted it to. Yeah, it was. What do you call that? Joan Didion talks. It was magical thinking. Right, right. But when you took the gig at hosting the evening news, right?

Anchoring, sorry. That's okay. I want to make a differentiation. You want to what? I want to differentiate. Oh, okay. Well, I was anchoring the Today Show too, by the way. Right.

Okay. You weren't a co-host. No. You would never call it that. Today Show too, by the way. Right. Okay. You weren't a co-host. No. You would never call it that. No. No, no, no. No, we tried to avoid that word, honestly, because it was a little demeaning. I believe you.

Yeah. And I bought that. I did that. I apologize. No, that's okay. But to be offered that opportunity, was that something... How many male anchors did you know personally of that at that job a broca obviously i knew peter jennings a bit a bit uh i knew dan

rather i mean just very superficially i would say um i knew connie chung who had worked as as an anchor uh i knew barbters. Diane Sawyer. I knew Diane. I mean, I didn't know her very well. And she wasn't, she anchored a primetime news magazine, but hadn't anchored an evening newscast. Right.

But she was also like your morning rival. Yes, yes, yes. She did Good Morning America when I was on the show. Was that a healthy rivalry? I think so. I mean, you know, I've always liked and respected Diane. I think she's really smart and a hard worker. And, you know, we were number one. So, yeah, it was healthy. It's nice to be the winner. But, you know, that, your tenure or your time there was like five years.

Five years, yeah. And I didn't even realize it was that long because, you know, in our brains, it was a difficult time for you. Yeah. And the way it was, you know, framed by the news. But, I mean, a lot of that just

doesn't seem to be real. What do you think happened? Well, I mean, I think, I do think i did some i was excited to see you there pretty good oh well thanks thanks i did some i think i did some really good work during my tenure there um i i think basically i've analyzed it over and over and well not over and over again but i think when I, I think I was an outsider in a very kind of insular organization that was extremely traditional. Just by being a woman?

By not working at CBS, not working my way up. Oh, right. Okay. And not really kind of being part of the CBS culture. Right. Okay. culture right okay and i think that uh it was it was partially maybe a little bit of the woman thing i'm not sure but i think it was more uh than i that i hadn't been sort of nurtured in the cbs right sure and i think they are the most traditional network so i think there was some of that i think the fact that less moonves brought me in but didn't necessarily have the buy-in of the people who were there right and I think Les was looked at with some suspicion by the people in the news

organization as the entertainment right um and I think I also think that that uh you know I know he was interested in really kind of uh mixing things up on the evening news. And I was too, just because I didn't find it super interesting just to read lead-ins for other people's stories. And being what I think really is a presenter in some ways. I wanted to do more interviews. I wanted to be out in the field more. And I think we tried to toy with the format a little too quickly. Right.

And I think it was, I think the audience wasn't used to me. And then we kind of were doing a different format. I think it was a lot of change pretty quickly. For that audience, CBS audience. Yeah, particularly for a CBS audience. Older. And then I don't think because I don't think, I probably just sort of thought like the Iraqis and the U.S. soldiers during the invasion that I would be greeted with open arms and, you know, flowers and candies.

Right. We know how that turned out in Iraq. Right. It wasn't exactly the case at CBS either. Mm-hmm. That turned out in Iraq. It wasn't exactly the case at CBS either. And, you know, I think there were some people who were suspicious of me or why I was there. And so I think all those things kind of a confluence.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know. You'd have to ask them. But so it was a tough environment for a while. environment for a while. But then when Rick Kaplan came in and became the executive producer, he was such a huge supporter and cheerleader for me. And we did great work. That's when I did the Sarah Palin interview. I did a lot of really important political interviews. I did some pieces at 60 Minutes. But, you know, again, maybe it's also, it's not that I don't like authority, again maybe it's also it's not that i that i don't like authority but i kind of go into places thinking that uh you know everybody's kind of sort of support each other and we can all you

know like let's make it work mickey rooney judy garland let's put on a show that's the optimism that um that that there's a lot of politics and i've never been super political in a work environment. I've just been sort of tried to be nice to everybody and sometimes, you know, maybe overly demanding at times as well. But I've never kind of sucked up to authority. I've just sort of thought, hey, you know, if I'm there, they want me there and we're going to do great work together. I remember that when I went to. You forgot the gym teacher story. I remember that when I went to 60 Minutes and got a tour when I first came, one of the producers said, now, just so you know, the mantra here is someone else's success diminishes you. Someone else's failure elevates you.

And I was like, wow, that is really effed up. Yeah. You can say it. I know. But I was just like, I don that is really effed up. Yeah. And I said. You can say it. I know. But I was just like, I don't really work that way. Like, to me, the world is full of great stories. And there are plenty of stories for everybody. Really.

You know? It's horrible when that, you know, that. But that was sort of that. That was kind of the mantra over there. And that's just kind of. Listen, I'm competitive as hell. Don't get me wrong. And I'm not like, yeah, everybody do a story story right and i i will fight for a story but i also think

at some point you get to a certain level and let you know gosh there's a lot of great stuff out there that everybody can do right and it just wasn't not that was not my ethos at all right and you couldn't manage, like it was hard. I would imagine it was hard to lead because you needed to lead, right? Right. So if you have those type of- Well, I think if you have

a very different kind of orientation and you go into a place, it's hard to lead people who don't necessarily feel the same way or don't necessarily buy into you view as a leader, period. Right, and if their mantra is, I hope she fails, or I hope that if that mantra is failing, you know what I mean?

Like if it's cynical like that, that the forces are going to be... I think that was speaking more to kind of the attitudes regarding competition, you know? Right. Okay. Yeah. Well, so let's just talk two more things.

The Palin interview, like, really changed, you know, people being interviewed during campaigns. Like, I don't, it's probably frightened a lot of people. But it was so good and so necessary. We frightened a lot of people. But it was so good and so necessary. When you were going into that, how objective were you? I mean, I tried to be objective. I think I was skeptical about her level of knowledge and experience. level of knowledge and experience and um i hadn't seen anything that convinced me that she sort of uh really had a substantive understanding of the issues yet right you know i did see her

convention speech which i thought was brilliant and and uh you know really electrified yeah that audience and a lot of people who are watching nationally. But I thought the jury was really decidedly out on her accumulated knowledge and her ability to be a critical thinker and how she would approach certain very complex issues. Like, listen, I wouldn't know how to run the country. I wouldn't have such a clear understanding of policy, I think. But she's running for vice president. And of course, at the time, John McCain, I think, was the oldest candidate. And I was reading today about his health was an issue because he had had melanoma four times and people were concerned. And so I just really, really wanted to ascertain without a lot of pre-judgment what her views were on a whole panoply of issues.

Right. You know? So you were just doing a thorough interview. Yeah, I just really wanted to be thorough. I really wanted to hear what she had to say and how she thought and how she approached thorny, complicated issues and what influenced her and kind of what made her tick. And, you know, just give people an idea because I think people didn't really know much about her at the time. people an idea because I think people didn't really know much about her at the time. And I talked to Republicans and Democrats before this interview, just kind of pick their brains, like, what are you interested in? What do you think are important? And I know one person said, you know, just make sure you give her an opportunity to speak, you know, because oftentimes in interviews,

as you probably know, you know, the impulse is to fill the dead air, right? You know, like you don't want there to be dead space. Took me a long time to let that sit. Right. And so especially when you're on, you know, you're being videotaped, you know, you don't you can't have those pregnant pauses necessarily. But I thought that was good advice because it didn't make me it. I wanted to allow her to speak and have her full thought cycle.

Yeah, exactly. Without me interjecting. It was not your intention to allow, to try to get her to hoist herself on her own petard. No, I just wanted to give her a chance to speak. She was able to do that all on her own and so consistently. Well, she had a tough time in that interview. And, you know, as a person sitting across from her, I felt bad that she was struggling.

I did. I believe you. You're laughing, but you would, too. You would, too. No, I know. I believe you. I'm only laughing because, you know, you were doing your job. You were not out to hang her.

And, you know, at at some point i've had those moments where you realize like oh no she's this is bad you know i didn't realize i didn't realize how it would be interpreted though it in actual time i just thought people who were fans yeah would say would either you know blame me or would not be that affected by what might have been seen as a poor performance. And those who disliked her would use it as ammunition to underscore their disdain. And I think what happened was for a swath of people who were kind of in that undecided category, I think they maybe were taken aback and thought, whoa, this person doesn't really seem like she has necessarily the expertise to run, to be in this kind of high level position. But both of those other things

happened as well. Yeah, I think so. happened as well. Yeah, I think so. Well, yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I think, is that where she started to sort of infuse the word gotcha media? It must have been after that interview. You know, there was very little criticism by Republicans immediately after that interview. I mean, I remember people saying that the questions were exceedingly fair. You know, it's sometimes frustrating to me when the

whole magazines and newspapers question that. That's the one that stands out in people's mind. But I asked her so many things about Iran. I asked her about taxes. I mean, it was a very wide-ranging interview, first at the United Nation and later at a campaign stop in Ohio. Reasonable questions, though, for a... Yeah, totally reasonable questions. A candidate at that level. Oh, completely. Completely reasonable, but also questions that, in my view, required a certain degree of knowledge about certain policy issues, right? Yeah, that's not a lot to ask from the vice presidential candidate. And so the gotcha thing, I think, you know, I think, where do you go from there? Well, you know where she went. That's a familiar kind of, I think, you know, I think, where do you go from there? You know, so I think that's a familiar kind of, I think, rejoinder if you're unhappy with your performance. Yeah, of course.

Yeah, it's a standard blame the other person thing in politics. Yeah. If you can defer blame. But it's funny because I do think it's been hard for me, say, to sit down with Donald Trump. Well, he's great in that horrible way that everything's rigged. The debate's rigged. The election. He's setting, you know, there's a genius to his horrendous blame deferring thing and the con of him.

You've never interviewed him? I mean, not since The Apprentice. I haven't sat down with him for an interview. I've tried. Oh, really? He won't do it? Mm-mm. Huh.

That's interesting. And how many times have you interviewed Hillary? I've interviewed her a bunch of times, but I haven't interviewed her for this campaign either. But in both cases, your sense of Hillary over time, interviewing her through attacks, through, you know, the philandering husband business and all of that. You know, what is your sense of her as a person? I think that that she is being extremely careful right now. that she is being extremely careful right now.

I think that she is incredibly smart, understands policy, you know, through and through. And capable. Incredibly capable, incredibly competent, can be really fun and warm. I feel like she's got a whole army of people sort of protecting her and keeping her from, well, you know, of course, you've read how she hasn't done many press conferences. She hasn't made herself super available. And I think that stands in stark contrast to the ubiquity of Donald Trump, right?

And I don't think it's necessarily served her well. But I also think that a lot of these interviews, I saw something that someone at Business Insider had done, and I thought it was nice because they were talking about issues. It was a longer interview, and she could really talk about things she would do if she were elected. And I think those kinds of, I mean, I hope the debates will provide that because those kinds of really substantive conversations, I think, have been kind of lacking because all this other clickbaity, you know, important stuff that shouldn't be ignored ignored don't get me wrong but that is so monopolized the conversation um i think it would serve her well to to do some more kind of let's talk about isis and let's talk

about what's going on in afghanistan or let's talk about income inequality what do you see is the real key to giving people right more upward mobility Right. Hopefully the debates will do that. You know, I hope they will because I feel like, I don't know, I feel that that's been kind of missing in the discourse. Sure. Of course. Yeah. Because he, in look, you know, whatever he is, I mean, he's not an unusual American character.

You know, the sort of, you know, classic populist huckster. I mean, it's not surprising. He happens to be very good at it, whatever that is. But it will be interesting to see them really go at it. And he's going, I imagine he's in intensive schooling right now. I don't know. I read that he's not a big fan of, quote unquote, over preparation. No, I know that.

I know. And that I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if he is because his new advisors, he doesn't seem to have changed sort of the content of his comments. Right. And so I don't know. It's going to be really fascinating to watch. And I think a lot of people will be examining how she reacts to him and you know it's just it's it's all those weird kind of almost meaning not meaningless but these sort of

superficial theatrical moments that people attach so much meaning to right yeah rather you know whether it's right it's it's like it's uh I paid for this microphone or Al Gore sign or different you know kind of it's it's a lot of theatrics. And so. And our brains are kind of clickbait oriented. Yeah. And also the nature of the competition is not about policy. And it's not about.

But it's also being able to distill policy. Right. To really understand, you know, to be able to communicate it in an understandable way. I don't think, you know, people don't want to see people wonk out. Right. You know, they want to say, like, how is your life going to be able to communicate it in an understandable way. I don't think, you know, people don't want to see people wonk out. You know, they want to say, like, how is your life going to be different? Or this is what we're going to do. Or it's going to take some sacrifice. Or we're going to have to go through this tough period.

And I don't know. I think that kind of, it takes a lot of skill to do all those things, right? To be a good communicator, to kind of laugh things off, to not look, you know, too scorned or not. I mean, it's just like for both of them, right? Yeah. But I think he's given

a lot more leeway because he is seen as such a loose cannon. People are much more forgiving when they say, oh, that's just Donald Trump, right? But no one says, oh, that's just Hillary Clinton.

No, hell no. They're like that criminal. It's funny. A friend of mine who lives in Atlanta was driving and saw a bumper sticker on the back of a car that said, life's a bitch. Why elect one? And so she, I'm like, Susan, you shouldn't do this. This is dangerous. Like, there's this thing called road rage.

So she drives up next to the car. And she kind of throws her arms up like what? And the guy rolled down his window and he was super kind of mild mannered, middle aged guy. Yeah. And he said, may I help you? And she said, I just don't understand that bumper sticker you have on your car. And he said, she's a lying bitch.

She's a effing liar liar and then he peeled off and she was like wow yeah but what is that see when that happens and this is the same with donald trump and this is the same with that type of anger is that that's not about her how can that be about her how does you know these people become vessels and portals to for people to dump their whole life into i i just don't know where that became the thing where you hang these hopes and these psychological problems of your own onto presidential candidates. It's called anger displacement. Right. And it's like this is a difficult job that requires incredible management skills and incredible sensitivities to a lot of different

things. And for people to just trivialize it, it's just mind-blowing to me. Are you excited? Are you frightened? What are your feelings heading into this thing? I'm worried. I'm worried about the country. I am. I'm just, I'm worried about, I mean, it sounds so, like, predictable, but I am worried about how polarized we are. I'm worried about polarization that I'm worried about, not just on both sides. Yeah. And I'm worried about a certain self-righteousness and inability to listen and judgment. On both sides. On both sides.

Right. And kind of our unwillingness to talk with each other instead of, I mean, just to jump down people's throats. I mean, you cannot, if you don't know what to say or you don't say the right thing out of ignorance, out of whatever, this just, this, this, this, this, yeah, this fury and this, this desire to pounce almost instantaneously. I think it's, it's, it's very damaging to civil discourse and to empathy. And I mean, I, I go back to what you said. I really do believe that people have so much more in common, you know?

Oh, yeah. But we're all almost being conditioned in a Pavlovian way, practically, to retreat to our own corners. Yeah. to have these attitudes that are reinforced by our own ilk that then are attack, that cause you to attack the quote unquote other. You know, there's this otherness that's going on in the culture now. And so I'm worried. I'm worried. I hope that it will get better.

Joe Biden said he had tremendous faith in the American people. And we've been through bad times before, but I've never felt sort of, I feel a little despair, honestly. Yeah, and I feel a little fear. Yeah, well, what are you going to be doing on your- Thanks a lot, Mark. Now I'm really upset.

I did it. I'm in here feeling so happy. I did it. I did it. I came in here feeling so happy. I did it. I did it. Look what I did. I made Katie Couric sad and despairing. Well, what are you doing on your podcast? Well, I'm having fun.

Good. See? I'm working with a friend of mine who I've known for, gosh, about 12 years named Brian Goldsmith, who's a very, very smart, talented, interesting young man who I always tell the story that he got grounded in high school for sneaking out of his room to watch C-SPAN. Wow. That's how big a nerd he is.

And, you know, I love talking to him about kind of what's going on in the country and politics. And he reads everything. He consumes everything. Right. And he's sort of my shell answer man. Right. And actually, he helped me when I was preparing for this Ara Palin interview.

And so I said to him, partially, I think he's enormously talented. I want to help him find an outlet for that talent. So I said, why don't we do this together? It'd be fun. And so we're doing a lot of different, we're having conversations with interesting people. I just talked to Bob Woodward and Tina Brown about the media and how responsible and what is the media doing right and wrong, which was really interesting. doing right and wrong, which was really interesting. I talked to, we talked to Jonathan Weissman, who works for the New York Times, who was subjected to this disgusting anti-Semitism online.

Right, right. So he was really interesting. And then I talked to Richard Cohen, who's the head of the Southern Poverty Law Center, about sort of hate speech in general and what's going on in our culture, kind of the stuff that we were talking about. general and what's going on in our culture kind of stuff that we were talking about um you know it's just an opportunity to have interesting intimate conversations and to go a little deeper and to you know i'm i am kind of an endlessly curious person i like i like learning stuff from people i like i i'm confused about the state of the country and the world. And I'm kind of trying to figure it out myself.

Great. That's a good place to be. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I wish. Well, it leads to good conversations. Yeah. Yeah.

It's been fun. Well, good. And you're in a happy marriage now. I am. I'm really lucky. I have a great husband who's, I think you'd like him. He's really funny. I have a great husband. Wow. I think you'd like him. He's really funny. He's very dry.

Uh-huh. And, you know, I'm crazy about him. But one thing, I think he's just good company. Like, I like being with him most of the time. Yeah. Sometimes he's not a great company and vice versa. Sure. But, you know, we enjoy each other.

That's good. And so he likes to travel. He plans a lot of fun things. He's got a much, I think, healthier attitude about kind of work-life balance.

I'm very still kind of crazily driven doing a bunch of different projects, doing Yahoo, doing this documentary, doing this podcast. You know,

I'm doing a couple of other things as well. I started a production company. But he's got, you know, he likes working, but he also really enjoys having fun and traveling and playing golf. And he goes fly fishing with his friends. Really? He's just, yeah, he's cool.

He knows how to live life. He does. Sounds good. And I actually need to learn how to do that a little better. Me too. All right, well, maybe we'll check back in and we'll see how we're doing with that. Yeah, I'll see how. The fun part. And what about you? Are you in a happy relationship? Yeah, we're doing pretty good. You know, she's a painter and, you know, we have similar types of lives, but I still think I need to figure out how to, because when you do all those things,

especially when you're doing it on your own terms, it's very hard to decide when work stops. Does it ever stop? Like, I don't know how to just say like, all right, this month, we're taking that month, you know, or we're taking two weeks and I'm not going to do the work, you know, I don't know how to do that quite. Well, I think you need to do it even more. I mean, I should talk because I've got some of the same issues, but I think you have to do it on a more daily basis too, where, you know, you, you know, you can't be keyed into it 24-7.

And I think part of the secret is, my friend. The phone. Turn it off. Turn it off. Put it in a drawer or, you know, put it somewhere where you can't find it because I think this is ruining society. No, definitely. Oh, my God. My daughter, I mean, she's staying with me out here in LA because she came for a bat mitzvah. Yeah.

A little sister, a friend of hers, little sister. And, you know, it's just, it is constant, constant, constant. And I find myself wasting oodles of time on this device. And I think it's very damaging. I think, you know, and it's interesting, and I'll shut up because I know I'm talking too much. But you know, they did this study that the difference between a child of poverty and a child of means is something like 30 million words by the time they're three, I could be getting this wrong, but it's some astronomical

number. And it's because mothers who have have sort of a higher socioeconomic status, they are talking to their kids more constantly, talking to them, saying, look at that red apple. Just their verbal sort of interactions are nonstop. And a friend of mine said, did you ever think, I see all these young mothers pushing strollers and they're on their phones or they're on their, you know, doing their whatever they're doing on their phones and they're not really talking to their kids. Yeah. And I thought, yeah, you know, this is really, it's a dangerous thing because so much of childhood development is based on this verbal interactivity. Yeah, I mean, have you ever had that moment where you think you lost your phone?

That'll show you what your relationship is with that thing. You almost hyperventilate. Who doesn't hyperventilate? It's crazy. It's like most of your brain's in that phone. Yeah. That's it's most of your brains in that phone. Yeah.

It's but but I mean, it's it's real. And it's and listen, I'm as guilty as anyone because I'm not sort of being preachy here. Yeah. I've got to figure out how to get it under control. You know, I have an issue with your phone. What happened? Didn't you? Didn't something happen?

Oh, Amy Schumer. All right. That's right. Oh, my God. And I love Amy. Yeah. But it's like, Amy, really? Can you find some new material? It was very funny. So I was at a glamour glamour dinner yeah and i left my phone on the table my husband came and i was like what is he doing here it's a dinner he wasn't supposed to come right because

i think he thought it was a cocktail party but it was like a seated dinner yeah and uh so so she took my phone and that's when she texted him do you want to have anal tonight and of course he looked at it because he's so funny. And he's like, yeah, whatever, correct. But I always say she should have, in her routine, said what my husband wrote back after he got that text, which was, again? Well, it was great meeting you and talking to you. I feel like we can talk again another time. Yeah, no, I really enjoyed being with you.

How did I do as an interviewer? I thought you were great. I mean, it's not really an interview, as you said. No. As you have said. It's a conversation. Not enough policy talk. No, no, no.

Plenty of policy talk. I mean, yeah. It's, you know, anyway. Well, I'm happy we need to have somebody like we have people need more uh more people who can help distill these issues and synthesize them and drown out the noise and talk about like the the real core of the issue and how we're going to solve some of these sure, big fat problems that we have in this country.

Are you still working out a lot? I haven't really. I've sort of fallen off the wagon. I remember there was at some point where I saw a picture of you. I don't remember when it was, but you were like buff. Really? Yeah, I remember noticing. Not really.

I've always had big arm muscles because I was a gymnast when I was little. And so I have a lot of this muscle memory. So I've always had sort of that going for me. Did you do those back flips and stuff? I did do back flips a little bit. Not lately? Not lately. Oh, my God.

I'm trying to do yoga because the older you get, the more. Come on, Kate, stay flexible. You've got to stay flexible. Keep that core tight. and i do some spinning and i think i have to go back to pilates because i think that's really good for your core but i'm busy i have to and you have to be disciplined you know about exercising i noticed you have floss in your uh in your bathroom you got to be disciplined about flossing too but as i told you mark there was a new study that said flossing doesn't really do anything for you. One less thing to feel guilty about.

But I have problematic gums and I think that flossing helps them. Well, I wonder who came up with that study. I wonder if it was like, I don't know. I can't stop it because I think it's helping me. Yeah, it probably is. And you're taking away that slight bit of kind of like weird superiority, feel from of being a flosser yeah a daily flosser yeah you know i was well we're gonna have to get to the bottom of that study because i think a lot of people who don't floss felt very happy about that i i still think i'm gonna ask a dentist okay all right all right talk to you later. Bye.

I honestly love her. I love Katie Couric. I don't, I just, I'm just sitting here looking at her and talking to her and I'm like, how can you not love her? I don't know. I just, I can't help myself. I'm glad she came by. That was very nice. Thank you, Katie, for coming.

Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTF Pod needs. Get on the mailing list. I still write that every week. Oh my god, I'm tired. Tomorrow's my birthday. Tonight are the debates. Can I just say this as an addendum?

If you really believe that Donald Trump is a decent and smart man who's capable of leading this country. And this has nothing, you know, I don't care if you like Hillary or not or whatever. I don't care if you're a Republican or what. But if you really believe in that man, I just have to honestly say you're a fucking moron and a sucker. That's all. I'm going to play a little guitar. Hold on. Thank you. Boomer lives! So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice?

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