WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 748 - Hutch Harris/A Pashman Interlude

Episode Date: October 5, 2016

When Marc first saw Hutch Harris perform live with his band The Thermals, he was won over immediately and invented a whole mythology around who Hutch Harris must be. But as Hutch tells Marc, he was just a kid who wanted to start a band and did it with talent, timing, a lot of gumption and a little luck. On a related note, Marc's friend Dan Pashman stops by to talk about the expectations we have when we see our favorite artists play live. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fucking ears, what the fucksters?

What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is WTF, my podcast. Welcome to it. How's everyone doing? What day is it, Thursday? That's what day this comes out. How's that going for you? How's the Thursday going? Today on the show, Hutch Harris from the band The Thermals. Talk about an obsession. Not with Hutch Harris necessarily, but I'll explain in a second. I did want to mention that I told you last week about the movie I did with Chris D'Elia and Eric Andre and a bunch of other comics. It's called Flock of Dudes and it's now playing in theaters. It's on iTunes. And now you can also rent it on demand.

Go to flockofdudesmovie.com to watch the trailer and for links. I think I was funny in it. I'll get around to watching it. I haven't watched that Mike and Dave need wedding dates or Mike and Steve or whatever. It's weird. I've not watched a couple of movies that I've been in. I should do that. I should make that time as opposed to watching every episode of The Sopranos again.

Rock and roll, obsession, records. Yes, the records are still coming. I listen to the records you send me. I can't promote all the records you send me. If that's what you're expecting, if you're thinking Maren's going to love this record, maybe Maren will. I can't promote all the records you send me. If that's what you're expecting, if you're thinking Marin's going to love this record, maybe Marin will. I don't know. If I don't, I'm not going to tell you that, but I get a lot of records and I give them all a shake. I give them all a spin. All right. I will tell you that. I've been listening to some good records, but that's sort of what I want to talk about is the obsessive quality of things, the obsession.

Also, go to WTFpod.com slash tour. Carnegie Hall, there's literally maybe like 200 tickets left. And I'm just being straight with you. So if you're holding out on that, that's how many are left. Literally 200 tickets. The Vic in Chicago. I'm going to be in nashville i'm good there's a lot of tour i'm not going to plug each one individually right now but go to

wtfpod.com slash tour buster the kitten some people are pestering me for an update buster is doing well he's a crazy stinky kitten like he's one of those kittens that gets out of nowhere possessed with demonic intent. Like just out of nowhere, he'll just start ripping your hand apart, ripping some furniture apart, running 100 miles an hour, clawing the back of your neck as he runs over your head. That's what that cat is. He's a black demon. He's also very farty.

So I have a demonic farty ass cat that annoys me. But I love him because he does relax occasionally. When you have one of those kind of cats, you're just sort of like, oh, my God, what's he going to fucking do? Don't do it. Oh, shit. He broke my God damn it. Why did you fucking? Hey, don't rip that.

Oh, shit. He's running so fast and then he tried to wear him out with the fucking uh laser pointer the fake mice hopefully that they'll they'll just relax he's terrorizing monkey the old man but monkey neither one of my cats really ever knew how to play and um and they're kind of learning at this weird old age of you know 14 15 these cats are learning how to play i don't know why they didn't they they were wild when i got them they were not they just didn't have any capacity for it so it's kind of interesting to see an old thing learn how to play in his old age sort of like me right deaf black cat has been gone for two days.

But sometimes he does this. I think he has to go on a brief hiatus to meet with his mystical advisors on the other plane to give them an update on how I'm doing. Because Deaf Black Cat is a mythological beast that has entered my life. And I fear the day that he disappears forever. But he usually comes back and we'll see i'll let you know hutch harris today from the thermals now the deal with the thermals is um i saw them at south by southwest i don't even know how many years ago but it was one of

those situations where like i register things you know like I don't go to a lot of live music and I'm not usually at festivals. And I remember I had the same thing with the Hold Steady at South by Southwest. I think it was the same show. I think it was the thermals opening for the Hold Steady. And I see so little live music. And when I watch the thermals, I was like I was like oh my god these guys are the greatest band they're the best band I've seen in years and I believe that and I still think they're a great band but at that moment it wasn't so much like why haven't I heard of them it was just the experience

of seeing something new and being fucking excited about it I'd listened to the whole study but I didn't know the thermals and they had there was a Hutch and a woman and another guy they seemed interesting they definitely had their own sound I like the way play guitar I like the way they sang I like the way they looked on stage and I was just I was all in I was like this is a great band then I started to pursue like every record the thermals ever did including EPs and including like Kathy and Hutch records before the thermals are alongside of it. I'll talk to him about that. And like, what is, what are they about? And I became this complete fan boy for a few months.

And I was, I was talking, I was emailing with them and I thought they were so cool. And I thought they were cooler than me. And I thought about having them on the show. Then I thought I wasn't cool enough. And I'm 50 at this point when all this is happening but that's my reaction i go to one live show and my mind is blown and it's fucking all over it's all i just i gotta have i've done that with so many bands and it's harder with jazz people but new bands and things i've never heard of i'll fucking i'll go all in and start buying records. I just bought, I just ordered a record. I was at a restaurant and I heard a song and on the sound system, I was like, who is this?

And they said it's Zomes. I think it's how you pronounce it. Zomes. It was sort of ambient, kind of droney, repetitious. But for some reason it was moving me. It was reaching in and squeezing my sad little cynical heart. And I'm like, Zomes, I got to get some Zomes. So I ordered a Zomes record.

I'll probably order all the Zomes records. That's just the way it works with me, especially after I see a live band. But I want to talk to, I want to share this clip with you. My friend Dan Paschman from the Sporkful came over a little while ago, and we talked a bit about seeing bands live and what we get out of it. This didn't make it into the conversation we aired the last time, so this is like an outtake of that talk we had, but it fits in with the show today. So I figured I should share it with you and that you should hear it because it's about seeing live music and how that makes us feel. So this is me and Dan Paschman.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

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FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Ashman. So I saw Bruce Springsteen recently. Really? Yeah. I was thinking about you before I went to see Bruce

because I was thinking about your bit about going to see the Stones and being worried, like, what if he can't do it anymore? What if it's not like when I was 14? When did you first see Bruce Springsteen? First time I was eight years old, born on the USA tour. With who, your parents? With my parents. Giant Stadium, 1985.

Linda Pashman? Yep, and Louis, they were there. Good memory. Yeah. How is Bruce Springsteen evolving is there still the authenticity that Bruce is loved and known for is there still the working man's ethic of a Bruce Springsteen show where you're elevated and you feel like you know that these are guys doing a job and it's bringing us along for three fucking hours, four hours. Look at those guys. They're like union guys up there with the guitars. I mean, he still puts on a damn good show.

What was your fear? My fear was, like you said, he hasn't been touring for a while. I heard he had to have rotator cuff surgery. He's 66 or 67 years old. You're concerned about the surgery? You were concerned about it? Just the idea of him needing to have surgery. Right.

Upset me. Superman Bruce. Right. Like you forgive him as being invincible. Sure. You know, and yeah. And, and, and, and, and especially like saving with the stones, like rock and roll is such like, it's such an expression of youth.

Yeah. That like the idea of an old person trying to rock out is so sad. Like it's so pathetic. Oh, so the idea of it is, but that. But did you have the same experience I did? Is that, like, there was a lot of concerns. Right. And you don't want them to just become a greatest hits machine either, though you like hearing those songs,

and you might not have heard them live in a while. But there's something about professionals doing what they do best that if they can still, like, especially someone like Bruce and even the Stones, they're not going to use backtracks. It's all going to be live music. He doesn't even wear an earpiece he uses the monitors on stage and that's old school and the fact that when i saw the stones it took him two songs to sort of like get on the same page right yeah for keith to realize that he was amplified that you know that one or just there was just a there it didn't quite click between him and ronnie until like the third

song and then once that happened you're like you almost respected him for that it's good it's It didn't quite click between him and Ronnie until the third song. And then once that happened, you almost respected him for that. It's fucking rock and roll. It's going to be a little messy at first, and it's a little messy. But that's the Stones. But I was so impressed at the professionalism and how good they sounded playing straight through. And Mick was in good form. It was a little disconcerting

to see him dancing because he is old and he but you do have concerns for them as people because as they get older they become people right you know when you're a kid you're like the fucking stones they're like superheroes but now as everybody gets older you're sort of like i hope they still got it right right right no totally yeah bruce i mean look he went out into the like he he's got a little cat walk out into the crowd he's out there singing and then he he falls onto the crowd and they crowd surf back to the stage he was out in the crowd were you concerned at that point for his rotator cuff were you like oh god do they know he had surgery well you know last time i saw him crowd surf he sort of jumped into the crowd this time he sort of gingerly sat down on the crowd

you got me you got me yeah like and even the crowd was moving he sort of jumped into the crowd. This time he sort of gingerly sat down on the crowd. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got me. You got me. And even the crowd was moving him kind of slowly. Yeah, because they're all 52. Exactly. 60 years old. It was cool. His mom was in the audience. She's 90 and she's dancing and he went out into the crowd and was dancing with her in the crowd

which was a pretty awesome moment. Oh, that's sweet. Did everyone cry? Cheer cried. I cried when they played Moonlight Mile for no reason. No reason. So you come away from the Bruce Springsteen album feeling elated and happy and a little concerned for Bruce and a realization of your own mortality and perhaps Bruce's. Yeah, but also it made me think of you

because it made me think of your bit about the Stones, but it also made me think, when you were talking on the show recently about seeing Jeff Tweedy perform in Jeff Ulrich's living room. Yeah. And about how like, he's just a guy

who knows how to do the job. And I can tell that this is something that you've been like thinking about a lot, like just like respect for craft. Yeah. Like someone who has

put in that years to just get good at the fucking job. Right. And you're that, you're like that person too. And like when I saw you on tour

last summer or fall, whenever it was, like it struck me like the level of like just command that you had on the stage. Right. Like you were in your element, like even though you've been doing it

for a long time, when I saw you five, 10 years ago, like there was still a level of like, you know, of anxiety that was gone. Right. More recently.

Right. No, I agree. You had that command. And what I was curious to ask you about is like, one of the things that I see in the newer music

that someone like Bruce writes now, like he used to spend years working on an album, 10 months just to write the song Born to Run. Like, he was such a perfectionist

and as he gets older, he gets more confident that he knows what the fuck he's doing but then and then you hit a certain prime for which for him is probably born in the usa tunnel of love yeah time's up great talking to you you hit that prime but then you get to a point where you get overconfident right and you start he starts putting out songs like queen of the Supermarket, which is one of the worst songs ever released. Yeah.

Well, here's what you do. This is my general advice. Are you ever worried that that could happen to you? Well, comics are different a bit as long as you're generating new material. I mean, you know,

you're always going to be a victim of, well, it wasn't as good as his last hour. You know, like, and that happens with guys that are, like, I think a little bigger than me.

You know, like, yeah, there's part of there's something that happens culturally where where whether it's genuine or not when somebody is tremendously successful like i think with music when there's a string of hits that really if you think about the people that you love musically many of them defined your entire adolescence like there's's a group of, of, of songs that defined you probably through college where you could put it on and be like, you know, like,

you know, baby, we were born to run or whatever Phil Collins song that you like. And, but, but the thing is like, are you ever going to be that kid again? Are you ever going to have those emotions connected to a piece of music?

That guy did. Is he ever going to be able to do that for you again? Probably not. But, but also is, you know, is he going to age out of, of guy did is he ever going to be able to do that for you again probably not but but also is you know is he going to age out of of what he you know was great at maybe because you talk i've talked to a lot of these guys you know like huey lewis and thomas dolby come to my marshall crenshaw who believe they're still doing great work if not the best work they ever did but they don't have the the cultural relevance they used to or the hit making capacity that they once did or the youth of the audience they once did, but they still kind of plow on.

With somebody like Bruce, what I know about the Stones, like, I'm not going to listen to a new Stones song. What are you, nuts? You're talking about from the audience perspective. I'm talking about it from, like, 20 years ago, Bruce would never have released the song Queen of the Supermarket because he would have known or someone would have told him, this is a shitty song. Don't release it. And it would have told him, this is a shitty song. Don't release it.

And it would have ended up in the dustbin. Yeah. And I don't think Bruce has written any shitty songs back then. Oh, yeah. Look, I think most albums have some shitty songs. But I think that like I think the albums in his real prime, the bad songs are every song is pretty good. And the great songs are, every song is pretty good and the great songs are great. None of the songs,

like, there are a lot of songs on his more recent albums that are, that would never have made it onto those earlier albums. And what I'm curious about is like,

he, he gave this great keynote speech at South by Southwest a few years ago. It's sort of like his advice to young musicians. Yeah. And he was basically said,

and I feel like this is for anyone in creative field, like it works for comics too. Like, you said, and I feel like this is for anyone in creative field, like it works for comics too, like, you know, you need to find the sweet spot between believing that you rock and believing that you suck. I don't know if that's true. I think that, you know, genuinely,

generally artists are probably doing the best they can at that moment in their life. And I think that, you know, more so what probably happens is and i think you're speaking to this is that they they end up appearing like they're hacking on themselves like they're they're going to sort of go back to the tropes that they know and try to to to sort of you know bring them back to life somehow like i imagine queen of the supermarket is some sort of working class anthem about a woman who he saw at the supermarket trying to feed her kids.

And, you know, he noticed. This would be my blue collar song for this album. That's right. So he's hacking himself. Right. Where is, you know, is he still a spokesman for that? Was he ever really? Did he capture it poetically, you know, very succinctly for a lot of people and mean it at another time?

Yes. Does he mean it now? Yes. Does it seem like a retread? uh, for a lot of people and mean it at another time. Yes. Does he mean it now? Yes. Are, does it, does it seem like a retread? I think that you're more likely to get into retread zone than you are to like, I don't think he's, he might be lacking the creativity and the passion he once had for his subject

matter. But, but I, I think that the danger is that they, they, they have a formula and, and like, is someone going to tell them that,

you know, Hey dude, it's, it's a formula song. A lot of times that's that, hey, dude, this is a formula song? A lot of times, that's all they get from record companies. Like, make another one of those. Right. But how, for you, as someone who has hit a stride in your career and reached this level

of confidence and command of your craft, how do you guard against overconfidence? Well, that's a good question. I don't know. i don't know like you know i don't think that bruce would even if you talk to him about it if he said like i think you're getting a little cocky i mean you know he's pretty he's been not necessarily cocky but you know like part of his whole thing about about what who he is is is an exuberance and an endurance and and a sort of uh sort of humble persistence. I think he's always been pretty confident.

You know what I mean? I don't know. I mean, he spent three years working on the album Born to Run, and the only reason why the album was ever finished was because the record label booked him on a tour and pulled the bus up to the studio and pulled him out of the studio and took him on the road. That's an element of being hungry versus not being hungry.

Like the one thing I've said recently, and I think this speaks to that, is like when you spend your whole life trying to, just trying to get somewhere, trying to do something, and then all of a sudden you're afforded the opportunity to do it. You know, you do it. And then like, you know, do you get complacent? Yes. Like I would think that complacent is probably the word. I don't think I have a little more selfish and less broadly empathetic. And sometimes that feels like posturing.

Does Bruce Springsteen really care about the queen of the supermarket? I don't know. Right. But for me, my concern is like, yeah, I mean, I feel better at my craft, but I still am up against creating new stuff. And I said this just the other day. It's like I don't want to. I want to make to, I want to make sure that I'm growing creatively and personally. And that means publicly with what

I'm putting out there. And my fear is that, yeah, I'll repeat my tone, not my jokes. So, you know, who's to say, you know, what, you know, what you're locked into and how you're going to grow as an artist. But I think that, you know, you give Bruce Springsteen a pass because he has been fairly courageous and doing new things in his career. It takes a real unique soul to, to not hack on himself. And Bruce did it for a long time. Like he,

you know, he went out there and I think, you know, like anybody else, like I often question, like, why is he even touring? He's got to have enough money unless he really fucked up somehow.

But the truth of the matter is you, you want to see if you can still do it, if you still got it. Totally. Ted Koppel asked him that once in an interview. Like, why are you even doing this? What else is he going to do? It's funny. He said, well, it's because I'm a, what does my son say?

An attention whore. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Well, that's honest. And I think that's the bottom line with all of it. Or like, you know, I can't stay at home anymore. She's driving me crazy. I really think a lot of these guys are like, I got to go, baby.

Right. It's going to be six weeks. I know. I'm sad. I got to go. Truck's outside. That was me and Dan Pashman from the Sporkful podcast at WNYC. He's doing a special series right now on race, culture, and food called

Who Is This Restaurant For? It's provocative stuff. You should check it out. Get the Sporkful today wherever you get your podcasts. All right? Can you do that? So now I'm going to talk to Hutch Harris, who I completely had a different idea of. When I was on my thermal bender, I decided he was this way cool, kind of dark, brooding, intense guy that was completely focused on the music and certainly wouldn't want to chit-chat with the likes of me. That's what I decided a few years ago when I got on a thermals bender. But then I find I'm totally wrong.

He's a sweet guy, smart, great songwriter, musician, and completely pleasant and we had a nice conversation and he sings at the end so hang out for that this is me and hutch harris of the thermals so when did i like i'm trying to figure out, like, it's been years. Like, I got the feeling that when I saw you at South By, it was just this coincidental thing. Maybe you were opening for the Hold Steady. Right. Yeah. So I think that would have been 2007.

So 2007, I'm just wandering around. I see you and Kathy. Uh-huh. Yeah. And it's just you and Kathy and a drummer, right? Right. So that would have been, yeah, Lauren was our drummer at that point.

What does Kathy play? Kathy plays bass. Right. So I see you guys, and I'm like, holy shit, these guys are really fucking good. They sound interesting, unique. And then I was compelled by the music, and then the whole study came on.

They were pretty good. Oh, yeah, they were great. Yeah, but you guys made an impression. So then I'm like, who the fuck are those guys? And I had to look up your name, and then I to come home and then you know go buy all the records and then i think i reached out to you and i think you were probably like who's this guy oh no no i knew i mean i've been a i've been a fan for a long time that's my that's my uh that's my like weird dumb insecure fantasy oh yeah no i'm bothering this guy oh no not at all not at all yeah and then we never sort no, it's the opposite. I'm bothering this guy. Oh, no, not at all. Not at all. Yeah.

And then we never sort of got it together. So, but you've been doing this a while. Right. So this is like 14 years or so. But I feel like you looked more like your hair was wilder back then, I think. Sure, yeah. Well, it's almost 10 years ago, yeah. Yeah, is it right?

Yeah, yeah. It is. It's almost 10 years ago that I saw you. Yeah. When you were like kids. I know. Yeah, Kathy it right? Yeah. It is. It's almost 10 years ago that I saw you. Yeah. When you were like kids. I know. Yeah, Kathy and I are 40 now. Yeah.

So, yeah. So, that was like you were 30. You were already sort of like, is this going to work out? I know. It was already. Yeah. Yeah. We, the first record, you know, we got signed when we were like 26.

So, yeah, it was like almost, it was just about to be too late. Where'd you grow up? I grew up in the bay area like what was that you and i are both from like san jose are you guys married no we dated like 16 years ago or something and you don't don't date no no we haven't how long did you date we dated from like 98 to 2000 or 2001 really yeah and then a long time you've been working together yeah since then for just been like best friends since then you You never sort of like, let's just... Yeah, we gave it like another try like 2005 or so.

And I was like, no, no, that was the last time we tried to get back together. And you can still work together? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Wow. Yeah. All right. So what part of the Bay Area? San Jose.

My dad worked for Adobe. So we lived in Cupertino. First wave tech kid? Right. Yeah. Okay. So my parents were from the East Coast, and I was born in New York. And then when I was eight, we moved to San Jose so my dad could work.

My dad worked at a bunch of different startups before Adobe. But yeah. So we lived in Campbell, San Jose, Cupertino. But that was the first tech boom. Yeah. We moved to South Bay in 1982 or, San Jose, Cupertino. But that was the first tech boom. Yeah, like we moved to like South Bay in 1982 or three. Oh my God. Yeah. So that was when all the big shot nerds, the super nerds were doing the big work.

Yeah. So your dad got in the ground floor. Yeah, definitely. Kind of. Well, yeah, I mean, he worked for like a bunch of startups. He would like debug programs. Oh, security guy. Yeah. Or like kind of. No, he would. He would debug programs. A security guy. Yeah.

Or kind of. No, he would... You have no idea. That's as much as I can tell you about, yeah. Is he still around? Yeah, yeah, he is. And he's up there? Yeah, they're in San Jose still, yeah.

Retired or working? They're retired. My dad's a musician, so he does a lot of music stuff. He's a piano player. But yeah, he's been retired for a while. Because he had a piece of Adobe? he's a piano player uh but yeah he's been retired for a while because like because he had a piece of adobe uh yeah yeah that did it yeah yeah exactly yeah and he got out a while ago because this was you know you know obviously like adobe is huge now but yeah he like got with them like in their maybe like second or third year oh and he got

vested and he did some debugging and took care of him for life right i love people that stop working especially at an early age i love people that like that they're like i got enough i'm gonna do what i want well he just wanted to like he started teaching he's someone who like i think this is the third time he's retired like he keeps retiring and he'll go back like he went and like taught music at school and then like quit that. But yeah. So like he's always doing something. So you grew up with music. How many siblings do you got? A lot.

Just one. I have a sister who's in San Francisco. She a musician? She's not at all. She's a teacher. Really? Teachers? Yeah.

Teachers? Yeah. And your dad taught? Right. And your mom? Mom's a nurse. Oh my God. Retired as well.

Just retired. Good, decent people doing nice things, helping the children and the sick. Doing important things, yeah. They are important. They're the most important things. Yeah, definitely. I talked to a lot of people whose parents were teachers. It's very interesting, a lot of creative people.

I guess that kind of environment is supportive. I mean, you really think about people who have the willingness to commit a life to a creative pursuit. It's hard for parents to really get behind that. But I guess if parents are like, well, you know, the kid should do what he wants and it makes him happy and this is his path. We got to let him do it. Right. Because the normal reaction is like, you're not going to make any money and it's going to be hard. Yeah. Yeah. And my mom was always trying to get me to go back to school or to try to do

something else but then eventually when the band got to like a certain point where they were doing we were doing okay i mean my parents were always supportive but then they got really supportive and then they stopped telling me you know maybe you should when you could show them a record it's funny though like there's that leap from like look i made a thing to the to the next phase which is like where do they play that thing? Yeah, right. Where can I hear that thing that you made? Once it was on Sub Pop,

once it was like a label that was like real. Yeah, yeah. Once it was stuff like that that you could point to, they knew it was real. I'm on the same label as them. Right, yeah. Once it's something they had heard of. Yeah, that's a big jump.

But then they still go like, but are you making the money yeah but okay so you're growing up your dad's a piano player like what kind like classical jazz he did uh yeah it's like he did like big band stuff and show tunes like he did uh off broadway stuff in new york oh so he was a real musician right yeah yeah he was professional you know he was in like the Air Force Band. And then, yeah, maybe like most of the 70s, he was in New York doing off-Broadway stuff. Oh, really? So like weird experimental theater stuff? I don't know if it was too experimental. It was just smaller stuff.

But like burlesque shows or variety shows or like, you know, torch song shows? Or like musicals. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. And then he would go, like during the day, like singers would yeah okay yeah um and then he would go like during the day uh like singers would come to our apartment and they would rehearse with my dad and then he would accompany them to their auditions so that was that was another thing yeah yeah that was how he made

some bread right is that like you know let's work out the song and i'll be your accompanist yeah and then they go to the audition and and woman will go, my name is so and so and accompanying me is, what's your dad's name? Jeremy Harris. Jeremy Harris is going to be accompanying me. Right. And then he put the music on and then he'd look at her and do that. Exactly.

And then she'd nervously sing her song and maybe get the gig. And they'd say, yeah, I'm sorry. Do they say it right then i wonder no no they say what what do they say we'll call you and your parents stayed together still there's yeah my parents are still together all the all that accompanying actresses and no problems right for him right 40 something years yeah good job right dad so it sounds like that's well adjusted well adjusted uh family you seem like a well-adjusted guy you don't seem all fucked up when i saw you i

thought you were like well this guy seems to be angry about something um but maybe that was just the nature of the music yeah it's i mean don't we all get angry but maybe i was angry that day that day was a bad day well south by is such a fucking mess oh south by i know i i complain about it we've probably done it like four or five times but i do think it's good i do feel like young bands should have to go do it because the way like how it prepares you yeah to do you know because you make bands get up no sound check no nothing you gotta throw your gear on the stage in like five or ten minutes right and and play and you know it's like a million degrees and everyone's wasted and yeah so but i do think it's good i you know when i see like young bands doing i feel like yeah you

should that's that's good for you well the thing that was interesting about that day for me was that you know i like craig and i like the hold steady and they're sort of specific in my mind but they're specifically kind of of a tradition of uh kind of um american story yeah you know and uh but like but i think he's very thoughtful and a very deep guy in a lot of ways craig is yeah i love his lyrics yeah and like i was just surprised and i guess it's not unusual because you know nirvana wrote a song about it that the audience was primarily male seemingly very bro-ish in in their behavior yeah and like and when you guys came on you did well with them they're definitely rock people but it struck me that you know both of you guys are have a sensitivity and i would say not an aversion to

that type of dude yeah but are at at odds with them on some level for For sure. And we had done like a couple. The Hold Study was one of those bands where like their first tour, they opened for us. And then like a year and a half later, we were opening for them because they took off. They started doing really well. But they were like old guys. Yeah, right.

They had already gone through. You know, he did Lifter Puller for years. And like, yeah, I mean, that was okay with us because we like them. I like As People very much and like their band. But yeah, their audience, it looked like a sports game. Yeah, right. Because they had that one big, the one big song was a very much of like,

yeah, song. A lot of the songs. I remember we played like a show on saint patrick's day opening for them in columbus ohio yeah wow and it was it looked like a frat party right so did did that cause you any trouble no but there's just a lot you know you can't choose your audience and the thing with like you can't if you're specific enough if you alienate yeah you purposely alienate a lot of what you don't want right yeah yeah yeah if you want a really small audience you get exactly the people you want i mean there's a lot of audiences that you don't

i mean that was like that goes back to nirvana he you know kurt cobain hated a lot of his audience because he just saw them as the jocks that picked on him in high school. Yeah, well, that's the weird thing about music in general, and sort of coming back around to what we were talking about a little bit in the living room, is that, are they really hearing you? You know, like, are they processing your feelings about politics or religion or about you know uh the dark poetry of of of any of your music or are they just sort of like rocking out and is it it doesn't matter on some

level well it should be okay if they're just rocking out it's not i mean i don't think they're there's like an obligation for the fan to have to understand they're not tested after no no if you want them i mean if you really need them to get every lyric maybe turn the lyrics up and yeah you know i would think that's more on the musician well i'm a little weird like that anyways because i don't um like i'm not a huge lyric guy me too i mean i am with my own right when i'm writing right but sometimes i'll think like oh man i'll like list like some of my favorite songs and then I don't really know what they're, I don't know what they're singing about.

I think I go back to, you know, Nirvana or like bands like the Pixies where a lot of songs, like I love that song. I have no idea what, or The Cure even. Like there's a lot of bands where I just don't know. What they're talking about? Yeah, and that's okay. I mean, a lot of it's about a feeling.

Sure. But I guess that's, yeah. But you hear it. I guess I just hear the vocals as another instrument. I'm not trying to really relish the poetry of the thing. Right, right. No, I think that's a good way to put it. And I feel like I'm doing a disservice.

So even today when I was listening to the new record, to your new record, you know, I put it on and I'm like, man, I should just see what he's saying. You know, like I'm about to talk to Hutch and I should see what he's saying. So like, what's the song on there? Code, No Code? Oh, Into the Code.

Into the Code. Like to me, like I read that and I'm like, oh, I get this. This is about everything becoming digital cool that's that's close enough right or that's enough i mean how many even if like you read all the lyrics to a lot of songs that you they don't spell it out for you i mean that's why of course that's why they're that's why they're poetry that's why it's a song yeah and that's like a luxury of writing poets uh poems or lyrics is because it doesn't have to make sense it can be as you know vague as you want it sound cool the vaguer the better sometimes yeah yeah i mean if you look at some of like nirvana stuff it's just sort of like

what yeah what the voice the voice of his generation and you're like what are any of these songs about yeah but then it's just like the feeling you know like i love fugazi and i know they're singing about important stuff, but a lot of times I don't know what. Yeah. But that sounds very important. Yeah. And they mean business.

Right. They're approaching this seriously. Right. And I'm also like such a, like, I'm not a dumb old guy necessarily, but I really don't know what I was doing musically for a couple of decades. So, you know, everything's new to me. Like, I swear to God, god like i might have uh known one fugazi song and this is like two years ago and then like i started i bought the reissues of

the vinyl and it's like wow they're an amazing band they did a lot of stuff but i didn't know nothing about it but isn't that so exciting because then like yeah i would think it would be way worse to think well i've heard it all but i do that with a lot of stuff now so you you're growing up in in cupertino yeah and then what do you end up in san francisco where do you start the music like what'd you do did you go to college you just i didn't go to college oh so that must have freaked your parents out yeah that was the worst possible thing because my dad had gone to columbia and was like yeah and it was very what was he an engineer or what yeah yeah um yeah yeah so my parents were not happy about that yeah um I just started playing in bands and just started touring so when I was probably like 18 or 19 when'd you start

playing guitar uh when I was 15 oh really that's kind of late No? I don't know. I don't know. I guess I was given one at 11, and I reluctantly played it. I was like, my dad tried to teach me piano when I was a kid, hated it, and then got me a saxophone. It was the 80s. Impractical. Yeah. Yeah.

And then, so then finally guitar at 15. What kind? An Epiphone. Yeah? Yeah. Epiphone acoustic? No, no. It was an electric. A little electric? Like a copy or a Gibson Epiphone yeah yeah epiphone acoustic no no it was an electric little electric um like

a copy or a gibson epiphone no it was just it was just really cheap yeah um that was and then you know never mind nirvana came out like the next year so that was perfect for me because i was like into like stuff like guns and roses and led zeppelin and stuff, stuff that was much harder. Right. It's not easy to play. Do you still have that? But then Nirvana came out, and then that was like really, you know, everyone I knew was playing that whole record. And you could hear the guitar right up front.

Right, and it was just chords. It wasn't fancy. The leads were just sort of broken up. It wasn't noodling. It wasn't overproduced. Right. Right, you could just hear like, I can hear him playing.

I should be able to play that. Yeah, I mean, that's whole my generation of guitar players i feel like is all that record oh i could do that you know yeah yeah yeah the the the sort of uh you know noodling nerds you know the people that could do eruption by van halen that was the last generation yeah and then it wasn't cool at all just playing wasn't cool anymore after that isn't that weird yeah like you used to there was a time where where guitar geeks would sit there and just watch a guy noodle and they're still there they're still out there yeah but then it became you know a tone thing and a you know just a uh you know loud thing and a like i don't know simplicity i guess i guess that came after like punk rock sort of did that.

But you ever listen to like old, you know, punk rock, like not not punk rock. The generation after the Sex Pistols like that where punk rock just became a sort of umbrella phrase for anything different. But if you listen to the Sex Pistols, it's not that menacing and actually not even that fast. No. Well, it's like the same way if you go back to those early alice cooper records yeah those were like so scary at the time and they're not they're really cool though but yeah yeah that sex pistols record it doesn't sound it's just like it's it's cool it doesn't sound super tough yeah yeah i mean it's like a rock and roll exactly yeah it's got like i don't

know when the the the the drumming started to happen you You know what I mean? At some point, punk rock began to be defined by these monster drummers. Right, well, everything gets more muscly. Like I was gonna say, you know, like the newly... Black Flag. You go from Eruption, Van Halen, to people like Joe Satriani, and all these guitar players that are just taking it too far.

I'm falling asleep hearing their names. Right, it's just like two people that concentrate only on the tech side of stuff as opposed to songs. You can do that. So then same with punk. Hardcore in the 80s. Hardcore. East Coast, it starts getting just about being tough.

And then a lot of that crazy drumming, I think, comes from actually SoCal because you have all the bands that are on Fat Records. All these bands really tightening up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of jockey in that way it is weird there is an alpha element to it that is that's true i never really thought about when you really think about rollins when he took when he became the front guy for for black flag yeah he's sort of like well this guy is punk rock but i'm nervous right he's got that neck i love rollins oh yeah yeah yeah he's great yeah he's a character he's a very earnest motherfucker yeah yeah i i heard you interview him yeah he's

very he's very serious yeah he'll talk right yeah you you know you've actually you know the trick to interviewing rollins is getting him to stop at times thank god can i interrupt for a second and just yeah i know you've got the uh you know, I know you know what you're going to say, but I just want to feel like I'm part of the conversation. It's just all a monologue. Well, he's good at that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I used to listen to his spoken word records in high school.

I worked with him for a couple weeks. Me, him, and Garofalo did some dates. Oh, cool. And initially it was like, let's just pull straws on who's going to go last. And I'm like, why don't we just let Henry go last? Right. You don't want to follow. Two hours?

It's like a TED Talk. Yeah, he can't. Yeah. Two hours? It's like a TED Talk. Yeah. He can't. Like a really long time. It's like 12 TED Talks. Right. So when you get to, where do you start playing in bands? Around San Francisco?

Yeah. In San Jose. But before we get there, because like I listen to you guys and like, you know, for some reason, like bands, like some of the Boston bands really come to mind from when I was, you know, in college. Wait, so what? Like, for some reason, like, there was a feeling to it that was more punk rock in the sense of, like, you know, like a fire hose. Yeah, definitely. Right.

More experimental bands. Right. Like, throwing muses, for some reason, come to mind. For sure, yeah, yeah. Because bands that were, like, I mean, what is that? I think of that as being like college rock, because that's what they called it then, like end of the 80s, early 90s.

It was the first wave of independent music when it was still a relatively small, I think, market share for selling records, but it defined the type of radio. I mean, I think of like Pavement and the Breeders. Right, exactly. Yeah, that era. Right. Because they weren't like, you're not like a punk.

Because we were never, you know, I never had like a leather jacket with studs. But it was not, but it wasn't like college rock in the sense where you, you know, it seemed to me that what defined that era was R.E.M. So there was a type of rock music that was not really punk rock or necessarily hard but not mainstream until it became mainstream right and that took a while for a while but and it was very sensitive yeah yeah when i was in college it was like um the pixies were coming on yeah throwing muses i loved because they were local and belly yeah and the breeders yeah like that there was a bunch of bands around boston i'm trying to think of some of the other ones. Dinosaur Jr. Sure, yeah, yeah. So that was like harder,

you know, but I feel like that first early wave, I don't know when REM happened, but they were like the alt music, but then there was all these other bands. Sonic Youth was a little

older too though. Yeah, yeah. So that stuff was pouring into you. For sure, because that's like the last, you know, all these bands

we're mentioning all played like those early Lollapalooza tours, which for me is like sophomore and junior, year of high school really so seeing like all seeing like Dinosaur Junior Breeders Sonic Youth Hole Smashing Pumpkins that's all one Lollapalooza right yeah Hole and Smashing Pumpkins right so when do you start what's the first band uh so I had a band called Bunch of Losers. No, I had a band called Zephaniah. This is like when I'm 15 and 16.

These are like bands that mostly just played like at our high school. Like there'd be shows like in the quad. And who are your heroes? What are you playing? Are you playing originals or covers? So then- Did you do any covers? We did a ministry cover.

Yeah. That song, So What? Then we're just- It's funny because we were like like nirvana and pearl jam and like all the big grunge bands or like the bands we're listening to right then but then like we're really into like there were a lot of bands like funk thrash was what was huge like in san jose and oakland and we go to shows in oakland and berkeley and like there was this band called nuclear rabbit and like no one you know. Right. We would cover other local band songs.

We played a Nuclear Rabbit song. Funk Thrash. What world is that? Give me a big name. Like Primus. Okay, okay. Chili Peppers? Yeah, definitely Chili Peppers are in there too.

Yeah, we love them. Fishbone? Yeah, for sure. Loved Fishbone. We'd go see Fishbone all the time. That first Fishbone record was huge. Yeah, yeah. That's great. And then Truth see Fishbone all the time. That first Fishbone record was huge. Yeah, yeah. That's great.

And then Truth and Soul, that's another. Yeah, we actually got to play. We played this festival in France a couple years ago that Fishbone played and got to meet them. Oh, really? Yeah. I think those guys are really cool. He's back at it?

I mean, like. It's like two. It's like Angelo and Norwood, I think, are the original members. But yeah, the band's great. Who was the front man? Angelo. Angelo. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah there's a really good documentary about them and about him and he's like in la like living at his mom's house and yeah it's fascinating though it is yeah is he okay i think so i guess it's okay as you can be yeah but uh okay so so that was compelling you so you're doing some of that drive do you have a good drummer? Sure. Those guys, in those first two bands in high school, are any of those guys?

It's funny. There were two drummers. They were both named Mike. Mike Stewart. Now, I haven't heard from him in a while. Mike Butler, who played a bunch of losers, he just moved to Portland. A lot of people I've kept really close in touch with. And the whole Portland thing is everyone from California moves there so a ton of people I

grew up with live in Portland now well I want to I want to hear that evolution so you do the high school bands and when do you put together when do you meet uh so yeah Kathy and I start playing together in like 96 uh and then we toured around for a couple years and then we moved to Portland in 98 and so we had a band called Hala years and then we moved to Portland in 98. And so we had a band called Hala. So you meet and you're romantically involved. Not for a couple years. We met, we played together for a couple years,

dated for a couple years, and then broke up and then just kept playing. Because everyone, most people I had met, most musicians I knew were so flaky, it was so hard to keep a band together. That's why I did the first Thermals record alone because it was just easier to just learn how to play everything and just do it as opposed to trying to keep a band together. Did you move to San Francisco, though, before?

Did you live in San Francisco at all? No, no, I've never lived there. So you were just up in Cupertino? Right. Playing music? When you met Kathy? How did you meet Kathy in Cupertino? Okay. Playing music? And then it's saying that- When you met Kathy? How'd you meet Kathy in Cupertino? Okay, I met Kathy at Shoreline Amphitheater.

Shoreline was where all the concerts we went to. The big concerts. I saw Tom Petty there. Yeah, all the big stuff. Tom Petty, Van Halen, Guns N' Roses. But we met- You saw them on that first tour? Like Guns N' Roses?

It wasn't the first one. It was like one of the last ones before it all fell apart. With all the original guys? Right, yeah. Pretty good? Except for the drummer. Oh, yeah, it was great. Guns N' Roses were one of my favorite bands in high school.

Yeah, it was great. I saw Tom Petty on the Wildflowers tour there, and that was awesome. Oh, that's good. Yeah, it was great. So, so good. He's so good. Yeah, so good. But the Grateful Dead would play there at least once a year or so.

And we would, I did go to one. Yeah, I went to one Dead show there, but we would just go to the parking lot just to get drugs. And that's how I met Kathy. Because Kathy was in the parking lot and her friend was selling like ganja goo balls. Yeah. And it was just like. Before, that was before edibles, like the weird sort of. Yeah, these were early edibles.

Yeah, homemade edibles. Right. Yeah, it's just like... That was before edibles, like the weird sort of... Yeah, these were early edibles. Yeah, homemade edibles. Right, yeah. It's just like this gooey ball. And it was like raisins, and maybe there was some chocolate. Yeah, yeah. You're just like chewing up a ball. Something healthy. Yeah, it wasn't like fun to eat, but yeah, because you fucked up.

You know, go get like a nitrous balloon. You know, some guy just has a Volkswagen, but he's just selling balloons out of it. So yeah, so a lot of times, you know, you just go and hang out in the parking lot were you a dead fan not really my sister was a big dead fan so eventually I did I went to a show with her and that was like right that's probably just like half a year or so before Jerry Garcia died so like one of the last shows there they were pretty fun it was interesting for me I had a friend that I ran into at the show and she was just... Like a closet deadhead? Like she didn't want to be caught there? No, no, no. She was very, very into them. And she was

one of these people who's not having any fun at the show. They're just like... She would catalog. She's just like keeping track of every song that was... She was like taking notes. Right, right. The whole show. Archivist. One of the many dead archivists. Right. So many. Yeah. So it seemed like work for her. It was interesting. We took mushrooms.

It wasn't, you know, it's not like, I'm not one of those people that hates the dead, but I never, like, got sucked in. Locked in. Yeah. So you meet her in the parking lot getting ganja balls? Ganja goo balls? Ganja goo balls, yeah. So that's how we met, and then she had a band. And she was a bass player? She was a drummer. And Kathy's actually played drums on a couple

of Thermals records. She's a great drummer. We, uh, like, the first band I played in with Kathy was called Hala, and actually played drums on a couple of thermals records. She's a great drummer. The first band I played in with Kathy was called Hala and she played drums in that band. So that's your third band or fourth band? Yeah, it was probably like the third or fourth band. I think I have a Hutch and Kathy record. Oh, right. So yeah, so that's from 2002.

That's like right before we did the thermals. We did that record. It was like just the two of yous? Yeah, and that was just something we kind of just pieced together. We both had like eight-track reel machines at our houses, and so we'd do some at mine, some at hers, and then just kind of, yeah. Or were you together then? We weren't, no.

And a lot of that record is about us breaking up and like about, yeah, we'd already been broken up. So it starts musically, becomes romantic, and then you break up. Right. And you remain friends. Right, yeah. God, I can't, like, that's amazing that there was no sort of distance in that.

Like, if I'm friends with an ex, it's like years later, and it's more like, hey, okay, you all right? Yeah, I'm friends with all my exes, or most of them. And a lot of times it's like, right. You must be a relatively nice guy. I'm all right. Well, yeah, I mean, obviously they weren't like, I got to get away from you.

No, no, no. And with Kathy and I, there wasn't even that much of a break between us. Yeah, I think we broke up and, well, we got to practice tomorrow. Well, that's good. So it was built on some sort of other type of bond. Well, yeah, and it's just that we like working together on music, and I have never like really had that with anyone else where you're like this person you know you both understand each other

and trust each other yeah that's sweet yeah so you're playing well tell me about the move to portland because like that's early on really i'm right um so what was what what drove that okay so we this is like we were like we got to get out of San Jose. There's no scene, you know, it was kind of a punk scene, but it was, you know, it kind of died. And we would love to live in San Francisco, but San Francisco was already so expensive. We couldn't, we just couldn't afford to live there. And Kathy had gone to fashion design school in San Francisco, and we really wanted to, but yeah, just couldn't afford it. So we're like, let's move to the East Coast.

So we had a friend, we were going to move to Philly. We did like this tour. We ended up like outside of Philly. The guy we were going to live with is terrible. It all fell apart. We ended up living in Maine, in Portland, Maine for like seven or eight months because we had really good friends there.

The guy was terrible that you moved in with? Yeah, this dude that we were going to live with, we were like, this is just not going to work yeah philly of all places right i like philly and no it's great yeah yeah it's really cool i didn't know it was known for its music scene punk scene it's funny because i feel like the scene there right now is really cool but yeah i don't know what was going you know a lot of just like the psychedelic stuff was going on right anyway not that we would have fit in with that either but yeah so we end up we had good friends in in portland maine we ended up just living just one kind of like stoned winter

in in portland maine and then yeah and then like spring of 97 we moved we're like we gotta you know we don't want to go back to california but portland we knew people yeah portland oregon we knew people that lived there and kathy and i had been there like on tours or just like to visit and we knew there was like really cheap the music scene was already kind of cool yeah so it just seemed like who was that idea in the music so that's like elliot smith is still living there sleater kinney had just kind of like moved there after being split between like olympia and portland um there was uh you know there was just like a lot of like small punk bands and there was just like a lot of or like a few like just small like all ages like hole in the wall type venues right and just a lot of good like house shows you know we were like 21

we moved there so there was just like and it hadn't blown up it hadn't become what it is right not at all not at all beaten city in a way. Right. It was just kind of weird and dark. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was kind of creepy. Yeah.

It was cool. And so you did the, and at that point you moved there. And when do you do the first record? So we're there for a while before, you know, we do Hala for a couple of years. Kathy and I record the Hutch and Kathy record. We do HALA for a couple years. Kathy and I record the Hutch and Kathy record. And then in 2002, just at my house, I recorded that first Thermals record.

How come without her? It was just like... At that point, it wasn't a band. It wasn't like anything. It was just kind of like this project I was doing at my house. Yeah, I would just come home from work and just write these songs. So it wasn't like... It was just like, I was doing at my house. Yeah. I would just like come home from work and just like write these songs. So it wasn't like, it was just like, I'm going to do this. Yeah. You know, just because.

Yeah. Because I like to record. Right. And then you play it for her and you go, we got a tour with this stuff. Yeah. It was something where like immediate, like anyone I played before got really excited about it because it was just, you know know it's the recording is like lower than lo-fi you know it's like just a really kind of like crazy crappy recording but it sounds cool

like the energy was really cool and anyone i played it for like really liked it and um like when kathy and i were on the hutch and kathy tour like it was it's only been a couple months what do you mean a tour just it was just the two of us like in a corolla it was, it's only been a couple months. What do you mean a tour? Just, it was just the two of us, like in a Corolla. It was like just playing just tiny shows to almost no one. Yeah. I mean, which is,

which had, that's how a lot of our tours had been like up until that point. Is that, that's how, what we knew is tour. We booked it ourselves. Right. But do you just accept that or is that heartbreaking in a way?

No, you just, we have the feeling like things are going to get better yeah um if we just keep doing this right because this is this is the way it's weighed out this everyone has to do this right yeah and you know and we were you know we were still you we were like 23 or 24 we were doing that so yeah so we didn't feel you know we just felt like we're moving in the right direction so so how do you like the the first record is on a smaller label your your record the hutch and kathy record yeah yeah but more parts for millions that's on sub pop it is yeah yeah so how does that happen okay so so

we put a little band together of just like friends of ours like uh kathy and i were friends with this guy jordan who was living with us and he was playing he played drums and then our friend Ben Barnett played guitar and then I just sang Ben Barnett introduced us to Ben Gibbard who's from Death Cab for Cutie and was doing the Postal Service record with Sub Pop and so we gave it to Ben Gibbard

and then Ben Gibbard gave it to Sub know uh gave it to ben gibbard and then ben gibbard gave it to sub pop the record that you made yourself right right and so when kathy and i were on tour just we got an email from sub pop it all happened like really quickly like so quickly that i didn't really like i thought someone was pranking us at first i thought i don't think this is like actually someone from sub pop yeah yeah that wants to put out the record but yeah so they were like hey do you want to come yeah Kathy and I were on tour and Thermals hadn't even we hadn't even practiced there was no band there was just that recording

do you want to come play in Seattle and so we're like sure we gotta you know give us a couple months because we're on tour and you know we didn't tell them but we were like there's no band let us just make the band that you want to sign first but that was like you know yeah and that was after so many years of sending cds to sub pop all these labels we

wanted to be on and never hearing anything back and then here was this thing that we had made that we had like given to a couple people but hadn't like sent to labels well it was but that was how it always works it's an inside job right you know they just throw the things you send on the pile yep and maybe like like i get records all the time from people and it's very odd that like why why do i like lock into one like i'll usually give them all a listen but it's just so rare that you put one on and you go like what what's that what's going on there's something there's something here yeah it just happened the other day with some weird uh record from i think maple leaf records uh-huh um the i i don't remember i'll show you the record but like like that also that guy uh nathan from rivulets these people send me records and i'll put it on

and maybe you know the other records resonate with other people, but it's such a crapshoot. Yeah, definitely. It has to be a guy looking at a box of shit that's come into Sub Pop and just be like, eh, maybe I'll throw, if even that, I'm going to try this. Yeah, yeah, you should be so lucky just to get a listen. Yeah, right. And it's not anyone's fault. Because I think when you have hopes and dreams and you're the guy sitting at home in your living room with your 8-track and you put this thing together, it's all about you. But you really don't want to think that it's just going to go directly from your hands into a box of other things that look exactly like it.

Right. You want to think there's some process where the guy goes, oh, this one. Well, yeah, but that's up to you. want to think there's some process where the guy goes oh this one you know yeah but that's up to you i mean you know the rule is supposed to be like you put the greatest put the best song first because most people aren't gonna make it right right right yeah yeah yeah yeah did you do that no you you know you are and that's what a lot of bands you send them the whole record and oh i'm gonna put the the you know there's the intro song and then, you know, the best song is like the fourth or fifth song. Right.

But, yeah, and they don't care. Yeah. And they shouldn't. They're drowning, you know. Well, I mean, like you want there to be. It's just it's weird how these things work because they're like occasionally there's a story where like, you know, a friend of mine got a lot of unsolicited stuff. And he was, you know, he was mine got a lot of unsolicited stuff and he was you know he was really just um working for the manager of the cure you know uh in in the bmg building in uh

in new york but he was getting you know you know unsolicited stuff and he'd throw it on occasion when he just found this one thing that you know became this huge where he just felt that it was a hit and he made this thing a hit from this demo that somebody sent and it was a one hit thing but it sort of established him as a guy who can find music right yeah uh and you hope that that guy gets it yeah yeah but the music doesn't work like that anymore but you're still at that time there was still a sort of you know tactile music yeah yeah no i always say that because we that because the first couple records we did, they were still like 8x10 glossies, and you would actually send out a CD

with a paper press release, and then by the third record, it's all digital. When we got signed, the labels were still trying to figure out how do we not get this leaked or get this stolen, and Pearl Jam's label,

I think it was Epic or columbia was doing they were sending cd like disc mans out to with locked glued yeah yeah and then we like well anyone that wants to they just run a cable to whatever yeah yeah people will still be able to figure it out but yeah but all that you like it all happens so quickly right but you guys all your records are on vinyl and they're you put thought into the artwork i always like the artwork oh cool thanks yeah i do that or i do that or we we collaborate on that but most of those yeah yeah it's like these montage kind of like yeah cut and think yeah yeah yeah yeah you want them to all i like when you lay out all the records together and they all kind of yeah yeah it's an art show yeah yeah for sure this guy's got a style on the cover

too yeah and you kind of want it to match the music, too. Like, it's kind of this scrappy, imperfect thing. It does. It definitely does match. All right, so Gibbard gets you in, and you put together the band. You put a couple months together to teach these people how to play the songs that you've made. Exactly, yeah. And then what happens? You play for Sub Pop.

So we play for Sub Pop. They like it a lot. Where did you do that? It was a thing where, like, there was a show in the main room and we just there was just like a little cafe attached and we just played on the floor in the cafe for a small audience. Yeah. Yeah. For mostly just people that worked at sub pop.

Oh, wow. And then went in the pressure thing. Yeah. Right. Because this was like, I mean, there was we're always like trying, you know, sending our stuff out to all these labels. But sub pop was like the one for us us yeah for sure it meant something right yeah well just like so many of our favorite bands like cool like nirvana first like the grunge ones like

nirvana and mud honey but then like bands like eric's trip and just you know just kind of the weirder stuff sabado yeah yeah just like yeah so many different yeah so many different bands so you're playing so you like sub pop though yeah yeah so we love sub pop so that was ultimate like there was no way we were going to sign to sub pop yeah we really wanted and then you know so we went to the office the next day and they and also you know they had just the shins record had come out sub pop was kind of having like this renaissance yeah and the you know jonathan poneman he attributed it to the shins yeah the shins kind of good record oh yeah it's a great record i just listened to one of those songs yesterday came up on my shuffle yeah

yeah yeah it was rock man it had good drive to it it's fun yeah they're great it's one of those bands that like they were like a little weird and then i feel like a lot of bands that kind of kind of became like the new sub pop sound yeah was these bands who are rock but it was like a little soft and pretty uh but different than what sub pop had been doing right up until then yeah yeah they kind of reinvented themselves so you play the show and they're like okay great yeah but they didn't record they they just released the record you made right and they did want us to re-record it and we didn't want to um you know they wanted to put us back in the studio and like make it sound this is great for a living room record right but to me it sounded like

you know like eric's trip or elevator to hell i was like a lot of you know the lyric of the uh the records that have inspired this record are sub-pop records, and they, you know, the recordings are garbage, and I want mine, you know, to be that way, too. Special, yeah. Yeah, I want to put out my crappy record on sub-pop. And they let you. Yeah, yeah, they did. They were, yeah, I mean, every label we've been on has been really good about letting us do just whatever.

I mean, every label we've been on has been really good about letting us do just whatever. Right. But that's an interesting thing to me that, you know, what happens? You know what I mean? So you're on Sub Pop. Your first album that you actually record with them, you're produced by a big producer for them. Yeah, yeah. Chris Walla.

And, you know, he's done, like, you know, all the Death Cab for Cutie records and so that's a that's that's like that's a little juice right yeah yeah definitely they're setting you up to be received right and so then like so like Death Cab just helped us out so much because Ben helped us get signed and then Chris mixed that first record and produced the second one and then they took he remixed your record yeah yeah so it didn't make it it didn't make it sound any better. The original, you know, there's only so far, there's only so much you can do with a four track cassette. For this generation, he's a big producer.

Oh, yeah, yeah. He's done like Decembrist and Tegan and Sarah. Yeah. The stuff that Chris, yeah, Chris always has interesting stories. He said like Steely Dan called him up, and it wasn't even to produce a record. They just wanted him to like come out and hang he just went and like hung out with steely dan sure sure sure give us give us some uh relevance right yeah right we need a guy to make us hip for the kids right so he does uh the fucking a record right yeah and that's all

you did that is that considered a full record yeah yeah it's i mean all our records are short yeah it's you know it's like 25 minutes that's unusual for the world we live in aren't you supposed to dump everything you've ever done into each are you i don't know i mean we're a punk band so all the songs are really short yeah i mean i never complain if i'm listening to a record and it's short you know a lot of records you're like we didn't need these last four yeah and why is the last song always like eight minutes and they jam or it's just because they could yeah yeah i mean it's like i guess it's more bang for the buck i guess on some level if someone looks at a cd or

digital download they're like there's a lot of shit on here right and then they realize like there's a lot of shit on there yeah you don't then they realize there's a lot of shit on there. Yeah, you don't want someone to love the first half of your record and buy, you know. Yeah, no, it's good to keep it tight. Keep them wanting more. Right.

Or to wonder why you didn't do more. Just start the record over again if you need to keep listening. That's what it is. We made it short so you listen to it three times. Yeah, just do it twice.

You just let it go and you're like, is that, did we hear this again? Did we hear this already? Yeah. You're saying that the first time you listen to it.

So you sort of define your sound, because the sound of More Parts Per Million and moving into it, you definitely, I feel like you got bigger in the productions. Right. You know, fuller. And, you know, you started sounding like a band that had its own tone and its own style. And so you stay on Sub Pop through what?

Body, Blood, and the Machine? Yeah, yeah. So that's the third record. And now what happens that makes you switch labels? Is Sub Pop like, I guess it didn't take off? Or you're like, maybe we're not doing something right? No, it did really well. And they offered us another contract

for like a fourth and fifth record that i sometimes wish you would have taken so the body the blood the machine your your political angry record yeah that one like did the best for us that one still does like because now it's that we have like the 10th anniversary anniversary reissues with us those like sell way better than our new records. So you do have a good following. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. The thing was we decided after the third record that we wanted to own all the masters for our records. Business.

Yeah. Yeah. And so it just wasn't an option at Sub Pop to do that. And we knew there were a lot of other labels where that was an option at sub pop to do that and so and we knew there were a lot of other labels where that was an option so that but that's sort of uh adapting to you know the the pay model that sort of evolved as you guys evolved is that definitely you know if you got your publishing and you've got your masters you know that means you have access to make as much money as possible for as long as you're alive really right and even after

you're dead if it's really good well that's funny you say that because that's how i started thinking about it i was like one day everyone at sub pop is going to be dead and i'm going to be dead too and it's either going to be their kids owning my record or my kids neither of which exist right but i'm like oh you know i would i want my kids to own the records as opposed to someone else's kids. But you had the publishing. Right, right. And it's such a weird thing because now we own all our masters for the labels we've been on since Sub Pop. But then we still just keep licensing them to the label.

So I kind of go, you know, it's just one of those things that maybe like it makes us feel good. Right. But it's not a huge, it's not as big as I thought it was back then. So when you leave sub pop, you know, to go to,

to kill rock stars. Oh, that's a big, that's a, Oh yeah. Yeah. Great. And they had just moved to Portland from Olympia.

Yeah. They're great. They do. Who are their big acts? So Bikini Kill, Elliot Smith. They did the early Decembrist records. Right. The Gossip.

And you know, they do comedy records now. They did Cameron Esposito and Ian Carmel. There's a bird in here. Oh, cool. Not really. Does that? I just want him to find his way out. Has that happened before?

No. Oh. Oh. Don't hurt yourself oh boy is he just by the window there? it's never happened before he's trying to get out I just don't want him to hurt himself come on, no no no you're not going to get out that way

you're not going to get out that way this is awesome go go go oh god that gave me a hot that gave me a rush that was exciting well you don't want them to fucking you know break their wing on the window like they you know bugs do it too they the birds come for the cat food now and apparently they you know the one bird shared it with the entire bird community right and there's one bowl of cat food out there so awesome kill rock stars ian carmel portland's own uh so that makes sense so now do you feel that is there a difference i

imagine in promotion or the main difference uh is that at Sub Pop, everyone is in house, everything. You know, they have someone doing licensing. Right. All, you know, press, everything. Whereas like a label like Kill Rock Stars or Saddle Creek that we're on now, you just hire out for all that stuff. So in a lot of ways, it's not that different. It's coming out of your pocket in a way, though. It is. Yeah, though. It is.

Yeah, yeah. It is with, you know. You can make decisions like, I'm going to spend a lot of money on a publicist. Right. So that was a difference, like moving to Kill Rockstars and doing like, you know, you own the Masters and it's an even split. You split the profits. And yeah, so you are. I mean, it's kind of more work in that way.

Yeah, because you're having to choose a publicist and choosing how much money to spend. And you do two records with them. We did two with them, yeah. And Chris comes back to produce. Chris did Personal Life, yeah. We, I don't know if you know, John Congleton, he's produced a lot of, he's produced like St. Vincent and a lot of great records. He did what? He did Now We Can See. Oh, that's good. St. Vincent and a lot of great records. He did what?

He did Now We Can See. Oh, that's good. He did the first record for Kill Rockstars. Yeah. Well, Brendan Canty from Fugazi, he produced The Body, The Blood, The Machine. That was like. Oh, right. That was like major for sure.

That's a big record. That's your big record. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then like, that's where I got the other one. I got Desperate Ground from Agnello. Right. Who we just saw. Yeah. I heard him. Who I interviewed. Yeah. record yeah yeah yeah and then like that's where i got um the other one i got desperate ground from agnello right who we just saw yeah i heard yeah who i interviewed yeah yeah someone pestered me to interview agnello really yeah yeah he's great yeah he's sweet guy oh yeah yeah and he's done a lot of yeah i mean he did those hold steady records that got them big and right yeah yeah

he's yeah he's done a ton of great did you like the sound of that one? Oh, yeah. And he had worked on that Amps record that Kim Deal did. And he's done all those Dinosaur Jr. records. He was someone who I had heard about for so long. And I just found him on Facebook. He was friends with Janet Weiss from Sleater-Kinney on Facebook. And I asked her, I was like, hey, do you think he would produce our record would produce our record she's like I should just ask him and I just like wrote to him on Facebook he's like oh yeah I'd love to yeah he was great what did he bring to it like what's your what's your collaboration with these guys do you give them just you trust them implicitly or do

you sit there in the booth and we don't there's never like a ton of like you know we demo but there's like not a lot you know you just talk to someone and kind of just feel them out and john i mean a lot of times it's just like do you like what they've done in the past right i think they could do that for you like john we want someone who's gonna just kind of be open to whatever we want to do and the thing with john is we wanted to make a record that sounded kind of like scratchy and kind of lo-fi but do it in a studio and do it properly but still have it kind of be uh you know raw right just have it kind of be messy and so he was really you know i i brought that crappy microphone and four track that i recorded the first record with i wanted to bring

those to the studio and just do that same setup and have like distorted vocals and have it through kind of this cheap setup, but go to like an expensive machine. Right. Which is what, and he was totally down with that. And you did it? Yeah. That's that.

So that's what we did for that record. So now, okay, hold on. Like, cause like, I know like, like it seems to me that the, the last three records, I mean, I know like, like it seems to me that the,

the last three records, I mean, they're not, they're different, but they're, you've definitely got a signature sound now. Right. Right.

And you're not trying to break away from that. I mean, I always liked, I like think of ACDC a lot, you know, every ACDC record sounds the same. Best band in the world. Yeah.

It's all like, you, if you get a good sound. You know, it's hard because if you make a record that's kind of different, people will, they don't like the new. People will fault you for either staying the same or for changing. So you're happy that you found your sound. Oh, yeah.

I feel like it's one of the most important things you can do is just find something that makes you recognizable. Yeah. Yeah, and I like to be consistent yeah too so the i the so i got the new record i guess you guys sent it to me somebody sent it to me right what label's that now it's on saddle creek so that's been the past couple like this in the last desperate ground yes it was on saddle creek and this is why did you leave kill rock stars it was just a big shake- up at Kill Rockstars and most of the people we worked with had been fired or had left.

And it just seemed, I mean, we're still on good terms with them. It just seemed like time to go. And who's Saddle Creek? Where are they? So Saddle Creek's right there in Omaha. So they do Bright Eyes. Right. So, you know, yeah, I heard Connor in here. So we had just known them. We knew, had known Connor and Bright Eyes and like a lot of their bands for a long time um and just we knew the guys that

run the label and they're good yeah they're awesome they're great and they're out you know the label's based in omaha but uh rob who owns the label he's based in la and the new record which is good how do you now when you see a difference between like the last the evolution of what's evolving if it's not necessarily the sound what evolves i think the songwriting is evolved uh i feel like i work like you know it's been a couple of years since we made a record so i feel like i worked hardest on yeah just just by virtue of having a songwriter yeah yeah yeah and just yeah and not feeling you know a lot of times you know you're making a record you're writing a bunch of songs all at once yeah you kind of set a deadline whereas this record

we just kind of wrote i just kind of wrote for a couple years and there was no there was no pressure to make another record yeah totally, totally. Well, great. I'm glad. It's a good record. Thank you. I'm a fan. Thank you. Do you want to sing a song?

Yes, I'd love to. You can just do that? Yeah. I'm always impressed with you guys, just sort of like, you're not like, well, I'm a little nervous. Well, I'm a little nervous, but. No, but I mean, but you sing.

That's what you do. So I'll just do it, yeah. It's your job. Well, you know, you can't let being nervous stop you. All right, let's, that's true. You can just, you know,

hopefully it just doesn't become your thing. That's a nervous guy. Not in music, oh God, no. No. Far from your voice I fall in the dark The damage is a drain It tears me apart I know I can repair

But I don't know where to start My love in a void Worlds away I know I can repair but I don't know where to start My love in a void, worlds away Words I needed to say My heart went cold, this I know I pushed you away, oh oh oh I left my hate unsolved I couldn't keep you warm My heart went cold

Far from your voice Lost in the night The distance between us is fatal It swallows the light I know I can resolve it, I've always fought the fight My love in a void, worlds away Words I needed to say Words I needed to say

I buried away okay my heart went cold this I know I pushed you away oh oh oh I left my heat on strong I couldn't

keep you warm my heart went cold dead in the night Dark in the day Far from the light I could see Where I needed to be Oh, there ain't a way

My heart went cold This I know I pushed you away Oh, oh, oh I was fighting on your own I couldn't keep you warm My heart went cold Nice. Thanks, Hutch.

Awesome. Thanks, Mark. Great time. Good, right? Go get some thermals music. Go get some thermals vinyl. Get whatever you want. Also, don't forget, I'll be at the Now Hear This Festival with my producer, Brendan McDonald. That's October 28th

through 30th in Anaheim. We'll be doing a special WTF show on Saturday, October 29th, but there are more than 30 of your favorite podcasts all weekend. Go to nowhearthisfest.com to get tickets and see the full lineup, and use the offer code WTF when you buy tickets to save 20% off general admission. That's nowhearthisfest.com. Offer code WTF. All right? All right. Have a good weekend.

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