WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 752 - Ritch Shydner / Anthony Bourdain

Episode Date: October 19, 2016

Comedian Ritch Shydner is a true road warrior who made his reputation during the comedy club boom of the 1980s. Ritch talks with Marc about diving into the deep end of stand-up comedy, getting out entirely, and then coming out of retirement after more than a decade away from the mic. Plus, Anthony Bourdain stops by with his new cookbook to tell Marc how to make the things we take for granted. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

lock the gate all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucking delics what the fuck tuckians what's happening i'm mark maron this is my show this is my podcast wtf welcome to it it we did something special for you this week folks it's a new episode of the Mark and Tom show that went up yesterday it's another hour of me and the amazing Tom Sharpling from the best show just hanging out in a hotel room trying to figure things out we haven't done one of these in almost four years. So if you missed it, go check it out. If you're subscribed to WTF, it's right there in your podcast feed, and you can always get it at WTFpod.com. The previous three Mark and Tom shows are now

available on Howell Premium. Go to Howell.fm and use the code WTF to start your subscription. This is the fourth installation of the Mark and Tom show. Mr. Sharpling and myself socialize infrequently, but when we do, we try to do it. We try to get in it and do the talking and try to work some stuff out. I do call him on the phone occasionally when I need to get some details about records and things. I'm on the phone occasionally when I need to get some details about records and things. He's a big record guy, and he's one of the funniest broadcasters alive,

Mr. Tom Sharpling is, from The Best Show. You should check that show out, too. But it's sort of like a lot of mutual respect between me and Tom as guys who don the mic, and we have a great time. Very few people make me laugh as much as Tom Sharpling does. You should get that box set, the Best Show box set with him and John Worcester. I have it in my iPod and it comes up randomly.

Hilarious. He truly makes me laugh. And how great is it to hang out with people that truly make you laugh? I laugh a lot in here. I do laugh a lot in here during this show sometimes it's one of the great perks there's a lot of amazing perks to this sometimes i go out and do these keynote uh speeches i'm no ted talker i'm no wizard i'm no wearer of the uh strange ear mic uh i do I do not kind of deliberately walk from side to side on a stage reading off a teleprompter with a presentation.

But occasionally I'm asked to tell my story at certain types of digital conferences and whatnot and i flew uh monday night monday afternoon i flew to minneapolis minnesota and uh had dinner at a place called hot dish and it was very good and then i went over uh saw my my old pal gail from college and then i went over to acme it was monday night that an open mic going i dropped in it did about 10 minutes. Rambled on and ranted a bit about the political situation. Because that's happening now. And then the next morning, I woke up. And at 920, I got on stage in front of about 600 people.

It gives me a weird appreciation. You know, I go up. I tell the story of the podcast. I play some clips. I show some pictures of people that have been on and and uh you know i everything that's happened to me in here in this garage we you know brendan and i my producer and business partner had no intention we didn't we're not business people i'm i'm a fucking comedian that has his head in a million places usually, and I can barely keep my schedule straight. And Brendan's a very organized, very brilliant producer.

But we just work. We had no idea how to run a business. So now I have to sort of backload the idea that I kind of knew what I was doing. But the truth is, I don't do that. I just go up there and I riff through what I do. And, uh, you know, I tried to just be honest and, uh, it's a good story, I guess. And they paid me money for it. So that's my secret life. It's something I wanted to know how to do. It's a nice gig, make a little extra scratch and, uh, you know, enter a world that I

don't know about. And a lot of people work in office and business situations. And every time I do one of these or I go into one of those types of situations, I realize how I've not done that. And it's like a different planet. It's like planet real job. And my hat's off to you if you can pull that off. I have some gigs coming up.

I have one tomorrow at the University of California in Santa Barbara at Campbell Hall. I think there's a few tickets for that left. You can go to WTFpod.com for tickets. I've got shows coming up at Carnegie Hall, obviously, in November. I'll be in Chicago in December. I've got Nashville coming up and a bunch of other dates that I'll be a little more emphatic about as I get closer to them. But on the show today,

we have the comedian and road warrior that is Rich Scheidner. He was a big comic in the 80s. He's written for television. Now he's written a book, Kicking Through the Ashes, My Life as a Stand-Up in the 1980s Comedy Boom. He's now he's written a book kicking through the ashes my life

is a stand-up in the 1980s comedy boom this is a real deal guy good stories good to talk to him anthony bourdain is going to stop by here for a few minutes he already did we had a little conversation about his new cookbook and also about uh the laura albert episode a bit that he didn't listen to, but it was a bit worked up about. Yeah, so that's all going to happen. Now, I wanted to read this email because there's some things that happen because of this show,

and I've talked about it before that I never anticipated, but I get moved. I get moved because, you know, you can talk about politics, you can talk about pop culture, you can talk about politics. You can talk about pop culture. You can talk about whatever you want.

But sometimes when you just talk to other people, the impact is profound. And, you know, one of the great joys of my life, if I can have them, and it's hard because I can't tell the difference sometimes between a feeling of joy and gratitude and just sort of discomfort and sadness. But when I get an email like this, I realize that something happens in here that provides something that I could never have planned or imagined. And I go to my email box a lot and I get choked up. It just says in the subject line, thanks, man. Hey, Mark or guide

slash lady who reads Mark's emails. I really hope this email gets to you. My name is Clint and I'm fairly new listener. I was listening to your episode with David Crosby and when you were talking about people acting condescending towards famous artists or actors, I had to email you and say thanks. Your hard work to put together the show plays a huge part in saving my life every day. I'm 26 in early recovery and working the program as hard as I can. Booze was my real demon, but opiates, coke,

and just about everything else had its way with me too. I put together nine months and been working the steps and I just finished going over step 12 with my sponsor. You and your show come to mind when I think about people

working the 12th step for me. Your show offers me conversation that keeps my brain away from the obsession. You and your guests make me laugh and cry. I can feel again, and it's crazy. I feel alone so much of the time, but when I listen to your show, especially when you talk recovery,

I feel like I'm sitting there with people who finally get me, people that really care and have a deep understanding of pain. My addiction brought me to a suicide attempt and rehab last December, so my life was pretty dark. Before the drugs and booze became everything, I played the guitar, loved film, music, vinyl, reading, and just learning. But that overwhelming loneliness and despair let the booze and drugs take over. Now I'm doing all right and getting back into those things. Your efforts and your show have opened that world of art back up to me.

I listen to it when I'm feeling good and anytime I'm in those darker moments when I really want to use. Before I know it, I'm thinking about things that matter to me again, even when I can't figure out why the hell I'm not dead and what the point of going on is. I find myself laughing out loud to myself, which is nuts to me. It'd be cool to hear from you in some way, but I really just wanted to say thank you and screw those people being condescending towards your work. It saves my life and shows me that life is worth living. Thanks, Mark. Clint. Well, there you go, Clint. You're hearing from me and thank you for sending that. It makes me feel like I'm doing something important. And I think that's something

we all would like to feel not only important, but, you know, helpful. And I'm glad you're doing well. Congrats on the nine months. So right now I'm going to share my chat with Anthony Bourdain with you. I did a long one with him years ago in a strange hotel that was owned by Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn when I was doing a live WTF there or something at the Bell House. But it's been a long time since I sat down with Anthony, and he's always something. And his new cookbook is fun. It's called Appetites, a cookbook. It's available next week, October 25th. This is me and Anthony Bourdain. and Anthony Bourdain.

It might be off topic, but if at some point during this conversation we can talk about the JT Leroy doc that just came out and your previous guests. Why, you got a problem with it? I got a serious

fucking problem with this. Well, I mean, I've gotten some of that feedback. Yeah. Were you there for the... I was a tiny, minor, minor character.

I mean, she called me up as JT back in the day and tried to pimp out some movie actress to get me arrested and I just said at the time I think I said I don't know who you are but you're a good writer but a lot of my friends were really fucking hurt by this person I mean really devastated their careers messed up I just think it's really a fucking shameful

thing to give this person a second bite of the apple. You know, I mean, people, friends of mine were really, you know, hurt. And I mean, you know, people who are already cynical and they hear from this, you know, they read this writing, which was often quite beautiful. Yeah. And in many of their cases, I mean, these are people who had had unhappy childhoods and really unhappy childhoods in some cases, who responded to this lost soul who started calling them and talking about a life as an abused child in poverty, addicted to drugs, hustling for a living on the streets of San Francisco, AIDS. I mean, you know, and they responded as human beings. And when that faith was, you know, when the story came out, rather gloatingly, I have

to say, you know, a lot of their faith in any other story. I mean, I'm talking about publishers and agents and people who just, they were, they personally, of course, felt very foolish. But, you know, they made this leap of faith. Sure. And they did not have that faith anymore. Now that's, you know, they're a lot leap of faith. Sure. And they did not have that faith anymore. Now that's, you know, they're a lot harder and a lot more cynical about the world. Well, I think the, I understand what you're saying, but I also like, it seems like that

person, that Laura Albert herself, was sort of a, you know, fucked up wasp. I don't buy the, I mean, you know, many people have had very unhappy childhoods. Sure. I don't buy the, I mean, you know, many people have had very unhappy childhoods. Sure. They don't conduct a really massive and long-running con like this, enlisting, very successfully enlisting multiple players. Right. You know, the kid who played the JT part, the husband, all of these people,

she managed to keep them on board for this long-running scam for a long time while orchestrating multiple conversations with people yeah and and somehow remembering to record the conversations and archive them for later use so you know she recorded and archived everything she's kind of nutty like that but i i mean i understand what you're saying and and it is definitely noted i certainly felt that during that conversation that I was being worked a bit. But I also was sort of taken by the sickness of it, which she'll cop to. I don't know if she'll cop to being associated.

How about copping or hurting people like really badly? Right. You know, and playing on their vulnerabilities. I didn't get that. I didn't feel that. That's true. You know, a little some remorse. I would imagine there are a lot of very upset people out there. We'll see what happens.

Yeah. Well, you look well, shifting gears. I just had four weeks of doing pretty much nothing. Oh, really? Where'd you go to get that fucking tan? Went out to Long Island. I spend most of my life on the road going to faraway places. Where in Long Island?

Southampton. It's the perfect Hampton for me because nobody knows me. It's all Republicans and golfers and people who don't give a fuck who I am so I don't get any dinner invitations

nobody asks me to benefits nobody says hello nobody cares do you have a place out there? no I rent a place and I let a nine year old my nine year old daughter

just make every major decision of my life for the entire month where are we going what are we eating what is daddy cooking it's all her time are you still with your wife?

Yes. I mean, look, it's funny because I've got this family, I mean, I guess it's sort of a family cookbook coming out. Yeah. I mean, I have a very dysfunctional family. Right. My wife is basically a professional fighter. Right.

Oh, that's right. I remember. Yeah. I haven't seen her out of a rash guard in five years. We live like pretty much separate lives for the last five years. She spends her time figuring out new ways, practicing new ways to destroy the human knee, and I'm on the road 250 days a year. So it's not a Barbie in Canada.

Right. No. Appetite's a cookbook. Now, so when I was looking through it, obviously it's got your tone, that sort of tone that sort of fuck you tone this is what i eat this is how you eat this is the good shit right but uh when you're given that everyone knows that you travel all over the world and you eat everything i mean what was the breakdown what was what the original list looked like um honestly it it's mostly stuff that most people could cook at home i mean that was really the it reflects the guideline when I'm home,

I become this sort of bat shit, over-aggressive, like when saying yenta, chasing my daughter around, saying eat, eat. I make her school lunch, and I cook for her for dinner. So there's like meatloaf and macaroni and cheese, and strategies and tactics of how to get through Thanksgiving and Christmas without senseless butchery. Well, that was cool, because there's a whole chapter on just Thanksgiving. Well, I was in the restaurant business as a chef

and a cook for 30 years. I cooked a lot of Thanksgivings and Christmases. Right. You know, I've learned how to be organized in such a way that you might actually spend some time at the table on Thanksgiving and Christmases without having a brain hemorrhage of stress. I do that.

I fly to Florida to cook the whole thing. The whole thing. I do the whole thing. I got it down to a system. But it looks like in yours, it's a three-day prep. Yeah, at a relaxed pace over three days. Right. Just like in a restaurant.

Yeah. I take care of business in a certain way. In restaurants, we don't do stuffing inside the turkey. It's unhealthy. Yeah, I don't do that. It's stupid. Anyway. In restaurants, we don't do stuffing inside the turkey.

It's unhealthy. Yeah, I don't do that. It's stupid. Anyway. And we sure as hell don't go out to the table and try to carve equitable portions. Carve it all before. Well, no. Basically, what I do is I make a stunt turkey. Right.

Which means what? It's like a display turkey. A smaller one. Yeah. You know, with little booties on the feet and some stuffing inside. And I bring it and show it to everybody and they go, ooh, it's beautiful. Then I go back in the kitchen where I've already roasted a big motherfucker, which I've basically kind of taken off the bone.

Carved. And I can slice it in a nice dominoes in seconds and throw it all out there. That's what I do. Like a genius. Pull the breasts off. Yeah. Slice it like that. Yeah.

And you're wrestling with this thing out at the table, stabbing yourself. People are screaming, fighting over the chicken. I mean, look, generally the murder rate spikes around the holidays. Sure. All across America. So you're trying to save lives? Is that what you're telling me? I'm trying to save lives here.

There's a lot of underlying, you know, like long simmering arguments when you sit down at the table. The possibilities for mayhem are high. So you want to make sure that, you know, everybody gets enough white and dark. Right. But we should also make note that you can forego the stunt turkey if you don't have the oven space. Or you can just cook them in sequences. Sure.

Because what's the best part of Thanksgiving anyway? It's the leftovers. It's the leftovers. So if you have a little extra turkey, it's no big deal. I mean, it's all about you sitting there in your undershorts the next day eating a turkey sandwich. What I was surprised, though, and I'm just going to get nitpicky is that like i had a situation in a restaurant the other day where i was gonna order a chicken sandwich right chicken salad right and i don't like chicken salad if it's not made from like an actual you know roasted or boiled chicken with the dark meat but you just go right to the

breast and bother me a little bit what do you prefer um i'm not i'm not saying negative dark meat has more flavor chefs Chefs respect it more. But one of the painful, enduring lessons that you learn in the restaurant business, why chefs tend towards drinking too much and long periods of self-loathing and depression is because experience teaches them again and again that people don't want the good stuff, that they insist on the bad stuff. And it's broken a lot of chefs. It's like your best efforts, you're going to be sure of one thing.

Let's say, you know, you're the best chef, you know, you're cooking at a sort of a popular restaurant that tries to be everything to everybody. Right. And you put a bunch of beautiful specials on the menu. What are you going to get? When they come in the kitchen to compliment you, it's going to be, oh, the filet mignon was wonderful.

Yeah. Which pretty much you could train, you know, an intelligent monkey to do. Right. We hate, you know, it's character. So you just go with the white meat, but, you you can make it with like people want the white meat they do right dark they're gonna they're gonna bitch like that like the old school deli chicken salad never no you are gonna get a whole heap of shit for that if you do it so they like that

chunky breast chicken salad generally speaking now of course with the hipster invasion yeah there's kind of hope for all of us because now you've got hipsters like authentic. Yeah, exactly. Now, tell me about Octopus. It's popular now. Yeah. It's everywhere. It's great.

It wasn't around before, it feels like to me. Well, when I started cooking, if you served squid on a menu, people would lose their shit. Tuna was largely considered to be cat food. Any fish on the bone with a head, my God, people would completely go berserk. Really? You know, thank God for hipsters and their ways. They've really, you know, opened the door to enlightenment in many ways. But it seems like calamari has been a standard in Italian places.

For a long time. Right. But it was not anywhere near as popular when I started cooking. And you're starting to see a lot of hooves and snouts and tails and stuff like that. I mean, you can hardly go into a restaurant for the last 10 years without seeing pork belly and a chef with a I love pork tattooed on their chest. And you've got like a chicken pot pie in here and you've got a recipe for hot borscht, which is fucking great. I mean, I made that once. Those recipes, depending on where they come from, can get pretty big for hot borscht, which is fucking great. I mean, I made that once. Those recipes, depending on where they come from, can get pretty big for hot borscht, huh?

Yeah, but I mean, that's a dish that you can make on a Sunday and keep all week. It's super cheap to make, and it only gets better over time. Yeah, and you do the Italian gravy and sausage in here. Yeah, I like peasant food. There's a lot of fancy in there, really. Roast chicken. Yeah. Basic roast chicken. Everyone should know how to roast a chicken. Right. In fact, There's a lot of fancy in there, really. Roast chicken. Yeah. Basic roast chicken.

Everyone should know how to roast a chicken. Right. In fact, it's a general principle. Wouldn't society be better if everybody, given the opportunity and a few raw ingredients, could competently cook for themselves? Yeah. I jokingly say it, but I believe it. I think before you learn to fuck, you should learn to cook.

Because in a perfect world, after you fuck, you should be able to cook an omelet for the person who just did you this kindness. You should be able to competently make a fucking omelet to live in America. Who the hell can't do that? Everybody. Really? No one knows how to grill a backyard steak in this country. Everybody grills backyard steaks if they've got a backyard.

How do they fuck it up? They overcook it? They cook it too high, but the biggest mistake, what everybody does is they're poking it all the time. Right. They're jabbing it and poking it

and checking to see if it's done inside. Yeah. And then the worst is they haul it off the grill. And they cut into it right away. Right away. Wrong.

Sit it 10 minutes, right? I ate at Kispaka the other day. Yeah. And it was really nice to see. They cooked this huge piece of meat. It takes 45 minutes to cook. But I'm guessing the last 10 or 15 minutes, they're just letting it sit on the board. And man, that makes all the difference in the world.

If you just leave it alone. Let the thing sit. Because what's going on inside that unmolested steak is all sorts of magical recirculation of its juices. Yeah. And it comes out perfect. If you cut right into it right away, you get that sort of bullseye pattern. You know, it's fiery red in the center. Right.

And, you know, you've got that. Right. It's all red. Everything's wrong. Let it just sort of finish. Yeah. Yeah. So just that simple thing.

Just rest it. Tell me about the eggs, though, because there's this idea. I remember I watched it on one of the shows that eggs done perfectly are challenging somehow. Like to do an egg, and there's some French idea about how to do an egg. That like, what is it? Like you have a recipe for scrambled eggs in here. Yeah. And what makes it different?

Again, super simple. Don't overbeat them. Right. You want them a little ripply. And some people like them a little runny, but that's a preference thing, right you want them a little ripley and some people like them a little runny but that's a preference thing right that's a preference thing yeah i mean just don't over beat them first i don't add cream or milk or water or anything uh i beat them i i i beat them up with a fork right put them in a hot pan move them around in a figure eight pattern

and they get just right you know you want them kind of fluffy and with some nice texture and flavor and you got the whole roasted wild black sea bass in here yeah i mean how hard is that throw fish in oven yeah this is i was not i should point out i was not you know escuffier i was not the greatest chef i'm a i am this is coming to you from a guy who had 30 years in the business that I'd not, not a, you know, a genius of creativity. Yeah. You know, I'm a guy who's been cooking for a nine year old using that experience. Yeah. You got nice grilled cheese recipe in here for the kid.

Nice mac and cheese recipe in here. Well, you know, I think a lot of, uh, a lot of really great dishes like mac and cheese, grilled cheese, the hamburger, the, the, you know, the key to doing them right is to just not fuck them up. Don't overcomplicate them. You know, why are you putting all of these additional ingredients in? I mean, goat cheese. I don't want truffle oil in my macaroni and cheese or lobster.

I mean, you cannot approve on a good, you know, like, Velveeta macaroni and cheese. I mean, man or God cannot approve on it. Do you do the buttered crumbs on top, the buttered bread crumbs? I think that is an acceptable garnish. Right, that's acceptable. I like to melt it. I like to make basically a thick sauce of cheddar, work my noodles in, and then sprinkle maybe a little grated parm or bread crumbs over the top.

I like a little crust on top. And then bake it. Some people don't. Look, there are certain times in my life when I need to slip out. No matter what I've said about fast food, I sometimes need to slip out of my apartment and, you know, pull a hoodie over my head and slide into the Colonel or Popeye's and get that nasty sort of molten, unnaturally orange mac and cheese. And I always feel like what happens always is I'm halfway out the door and no one's recognized me.

And I'm like, yes, I've made it. And then it's always someone will be like, oh, Anthony Bourdain. Oh, dude. Dude. What are you doing? I've got a box set of like Anal Rampage 1 through 3 under my arm coming out of the video store. It's like, oh, no, man. They got me.

And now I also appreciated the fact that you just said fuck dessert in this book. I just, you know. First of all, I don't know how to make them, so why should I pretend that I do? Right. You know, I'm not a pastry chef. Right. Most chefs I know aren't, so why do they have these elaborate dessert sections? They have no clue about desserts.

Right. And I don't really, if I, in my life, if I had to give up one course for the rest of my life, it would be dessert. Yeah. Cheese, on the other hand, give me a big block of stilton and a spoon bottle of port i'm happy that's yeah that's it got it covers everything now let's talk about in and out burger for a minute yeah you love it i do i think it is an uh it is uh look it is not the greatest burger on earth i love it but yeah i mean i love it because it because it's a perfect example of a freshly cooked, good ingredients, structurally sound burger.

Yeah. So eating it is a pleasure. I just think they make a reliably good product, and I don't have to feel bad about eating it. It's a reasonably socially responsible burger. They take good care of their employees apparently

and they use good stuff. Right. And they have biblical, they used to have biblical quotes on the packages but now they just have the number of the, they don't have the full thing.

Yeah. It's kind of interesting. Yeah. I don't need to be ideologically aligned with you to enjoy your burger. But if you want to go look up, they just say,

sometimes it just says Deuteronomy 6, whatever. I don't know why that is. What I don't, the goodwill towards In-N-Out Burger is truly remarkable.

Yeah. I don't know whether you've talked about this before, but I, you know, I Instagram. Yeah.

I could literally, I'll put up a picture of me, you know, with the Dalai Lama or something, or skateboarding, or doing something.

That'd be just completely insane. The greatest moment of my life with Iggy or Christopher Walken. It's like, woo-hoo, look at me. And I'll get maybe 6,000 likes. I put up a picture of an In-N-Out burger sitting on a table with nothing else in the background. I'll get like 70,000 likes and comments in minutes. People love it. I walk into the hotel with this reeking bag of burgers.

You know what I'm saying? You know, very nice hotel. Sure. Or normally you walk into a hotel with like a big bag of like fast food and they're like, they look at you like you just shat your pants. Yeah. Not here. No, it's like good choice.

Yeah. Excellent choice. Where are you eating in LA? Where are you eating tonight? I don't know. I haven't figured it out yet. Oh, really? Yeah.

I might get a taco across the street. Oh, yeah? Okay. That's a good choice in LA. Thanks for talking, man. Yeah, it was fun. Anthony and I talked, and then he shuffled off into the evening in a fancy, fast-looking rental car. So look, I've known Rich on and off for a long time.

When I was coming up as a comic, Rich was always the guy that was referred to as one of the best club acts in the country. We all knew him as just this fucking road animal that was just a killer comic. And I saw him once many years ago when I was starting out at Stitches. But he always heard about Rich. And I hadn't seen him in a while. And I'm happy he wrote this book. It's an honest book.

And it was great talking to Rich Scheidner. So this is me, comedian Rich Scheidner. His book is called Kicking Through the Ashes, My Life as a Stand-Up in the 1980s Comedy Boom. And you can get that wherever you get books. This is me and Scheidner. Were you a store guy? Yeah, I played the store and the improv.

I went back and forth. But I mean, were you like in there? Like, I mean, were you hanging around? I don't know if I hung around because Sam and I hung around a lot. Right. But I hung around not because there was a place to hang around. There was a bar at the improv. Right.

But there wasn't a bar. You had to stand around in the hallways. Yeah, around the patio. Or you're out in the back of the, you know, behind the patio. It was really that much of a patio there. In the front? Yeah, there was no patio in the front. Yeah, there is.

That wasn't there then. Not wasn't there then. What do you mean? It's been there before. That patio that they kind of set up then, it wasn't then back when I got to 82. Oh, in 82? No. No, it wasn't there.

I was there in 87. It was there. Well, maybe it ended in there. Just put a few tables out there, a counter. No, I don't remember that there. Maybe you're right. I don't think that was there. You kind of had to hang out in the parking lot.

Right. Yeah, well, that's what makes it dirty. That's what makes it bad. You got to hang out in someone's car behind the place, up in the fucking green room upstairs. But where'd you start? Where was the beginning of it? When I first started?

Yeah. I was in Washington, D.C. There were no comedy clubs. It was 77, first time I walked on stage. 77. 77. There was a friend of mine. I was in law school.

It was in law school. It was not a great law school. It was International School of Law and Screen Door Repair. It was not, you know, it turned into George Mason, but when I started, it wasn't accredited. But where'd you come from? Where'd you grow up? New Jersey, South Jersey.

So you're a fucking Jersey guy? Yeah, yeah. Like the shore? Yeah, Jersey Shore, south. Which town? Pensville. It was small. Everybody worked for E.I. DuPont, the chemical factory.

Sure, yeah. And their farms, my grandfather had a farm. So it was all small town. It was not North Jersey, thinking like Sopranos, but this wasn't it. No, I come from Jersey. Oh, really, where? Well, I was born in Jersey City,

but my grandparents were in Pompton Lakes. My other grandparents, my father's grandparents were in Jersey City, Bayonne. So I mean, I was always in Jersey growing up. I was the first six years of my life. Wayne, Pompton Lakes. Yeah, you're way north. Right.

But my aunt, my father's sister lived down in Oakhurst, which is down the shore by Monmouth Beach. Right. Deal Beach. Yep. Where are you in relation to that? Well, we're way south. I'm down in Ocean City, Atlantic City, way south. Atlantic City.

Yeah, Atlantic City. Yeah. So, your family's all from Jersey? All from Jersey. All generations? Generations. Listen, they got kicked out of Germany in like, my cousin did a genealogy. 1721, kicked out.

Landed in South Jersey. 1721, like before this? Yeah, just kicked out for poverty. It was like, you just kick them out, just empty the debtor's prison, send them to America. They landed in South Jersey, never left, and never owned anything. Ever. That's generations of drunkenness. Never, ever.

All tenant farmers, man. Always, you know, just, yeah. So your father was a farmer? Yeah, he grew up as a farmer, then he became a businessman. What business? Insurance. He took over his drunken grandfather's insurance. So the booze plays a big part.

Oh, big part, man. All the way down the line. But you're sober how long? 31 years. Shit. Unbelievable, right? Yeah. Unbelievable.

It is. Really? It is fucking unbelievable. Yeah, it is. But you were notoriously horrendous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It didn't help. It didn't help anything. But let's track it because you were kind of your whole, you know, if people don't know who Rich Scheidner is, it was because most of, I mean, you were a big act during what was the comedy boom that all, that all of us heard of. Like when I started, you know, when I started doing comedy, I'd go to clubs and they're like, yeah, it's not the same anymore. Boom's over. It's over.

Like that's, that's when I started was just with club owners going, I don't get it. I don't get it. It was packed last Tuesday and they're talking about a Tuesday that was a decade ago.

Yeah. I hit it right. I hit it right. I started at 77, so I moved to New York at 79. But 77, so you just do it and you're just doing you're going to law school and you drop out eventually i did were you doing well did you regret that

no i don't regret it no no i would not be because i would be more interested in laughs from the jurors than really representing my client right i really i really was addicted to it from the beginning the first time i got on stage i heard the laughs that even one just one i mean my first time i just got like that huh just like one of those and i was like okay i'm coming back i'm coming back were you like a fan of comedy growing up yeah yeah yeah my you know my dad loved comedy i found out later you know he had comedy albums and i found out later talking to him when he was a young guy he used to go around and see comics and nightclubs back oh yeah because there's all the supper clubs yeah he saw these comics and he loved it

and if a comic came on tv man don't talk man don't you say a word oh really dad's got to get his laugh on so what how bad well how bad was the booze in the house bad bad bad man bad bad bad yeah dad wasn't laughing fists were flying man no shit he was wild he was a wild young guy was he a big fucking dude like you? You're big. No, he was a farmer, though. He was... I mean, I fought him.

I fist fought him in high school. He was tough. What was that day like? Oh, man, that was not good, man. What was the decision? I think there were like two fights, fist fights, where I was a definite knockout. He knocked me out. And then the third one, the final one, I kind of held my ground, and he just threw me out

of the house. I did okay. So why'd you draw the... ground and he just threw me out of the house. I did okay. So why'd you draw the- And then eventually he struggled me out of the house. Do you remember, why'd you draw the line? I just had enough. I was able to be big enough. I got big enough.

Because he would kick your ass all the time? He was big. He was not big, big. He was like 5'9", but he was farmer strong. Not muscle, show muscles, farmer muscles. Right. But he was abusive? When he got drunk, he got angry. listen he's still apologizing for him i love the guy now we're cool he's sober now

too still alive yeah oh yeah oh yeah yeah i talked to him all the time he's a great guy i mean we love you got through it well that's good no forgiveness is important yeah not now that you frame it like that yeah i thought you were just sort of like a you know cowering codependent no no no no no no i'm honest about it no no it was just you know he got mad he wasn't no you know you know look mark on the upside of that when i used to got fights and growing up right i was like that cool hand luke i could take a punch yeah and i keep coming back eventually some guys would just quit fighting you yeah you keep coming back you were not they were good i was not that good because they felt bad for you no because they just got tired they were like just got tired right exactly exactly there's moments you know where they go okay this guy ain't stopping okay i quit

oh it's a horrendous scene and cool yeah no it's not it's and it's not it's not fun in real life but looking back it's funny but did you fight a lot yeah really that was your thing huh it was because i just was i had that look i'd like look i guess it was like a blonde hair blue eyed i look kind of weak really and people would like push and i snap and i snap no i wasn't that big then i wasn't big aren't you tall or am i mistaken one yeah yeah oh yeah it's pretty tall yeah all right so you're at home you got siblings yeah all younger many? Two brothers and a sister. Really? There's three in that maniac house?

Yeah. Putting up with that shit? Four of them. Was everyone out of the house when he got sober? Yeah. Oh, so that's one of those things where it's like, you know, the damage is done. And then the guy's like, guess what? Y'all help him get sober.

And then like, did he fucking... All right. I don't... No, he did. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Did he make amends? Yes him get sober. And then, like, did he fucking, all right, I don't. No, he did. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Did he make amends? Yes, he did. To everybody.

Yeah, everybody. He flew out here to California, and we met down in the ocean, and he made his amends. He did. And, you know, part of it was I made amends to him three years before that. Was he sober, though? The first time I did, like, a half-ass, I'm like, I don't want to, you know. Yeah.

I did. I walked into the house and was like i don't want to you know yeah i did i walked into the house and was like you know hey dad i did and he was drinking like you're gonna drink you know a beer no well all right we're done talking right and uh and then i went back and did it right yeah yeah he still wasn't like you don't want to punch you more than make an event yeah right hit you in his chair yeah or even can we call it even did you stay did you go in and out of your stove no no i bounced once at about 44 days and then oh that doesn't count yeah but uh all right so he so he did it huh so like yeah yeah yeah yeah i don't know that's that's heavy man to me to like because i talked to other cats like my dad wasn't like that wasn't

physically abused it wasn't alcoholic but like pat like Patrick Stewart I talked to where you grow old and you have to change the way you see somebody. Yeah. Out of forgiveness and your own fucking sanity so you don't hurt yourself. When you see them differently, you start seeing everybody else differently. I mean, it was really hard for me walking through that. I have no trust and no ability to really see somebody honestly. I have this kind of hair trigger fightigger-fight-or-flight thing. Yeah.

And so I view everybody like that. Right. Are they a danger, not danger? Right. Can I trust them? No. No, I don't trust them. That's a given.

No trusting. Right. That's out. That's out. That's not even on the table. Non-starter. Trusting. It's good for relationships, too.

Oh, great. Oh, yeah. The not trusting? Yeah. Oh, yeah. They can't win. You're the winner and alone. The winner and alone.

So you go through this, and then you get out of the house. Are siblings okay? Is everybody sober? Everybody's fine. Yeah. Well, well. Were you the only one? No, no. My sister, she's sober.

My other younger brother didn't, but he slowed down after he got five bullets put in him. By who? He got his neighbor down, rednecks down in Florida. No shit. He was like one of the first. The guy suckered him in one of those stand your ground things in Florida. This happened like 2008.

Drinking, he was drinking. They were both drinking? He was drinking, the other guy was drinking. They had a feud for a while, neighbors neighbors and the guy baited my brother he came down and took his pickup truck and drove around in front of my brother's my brother has a fish camp so he drove in front of that office office you know in the gravel parking lot kicking up and waving his gun at my sister-in-law who then immediately you know went and told my brother what he'd done so my brother just runs down to the guy's place. As soon as he stepped on the guy's lawn,

the guy steps out from behind a tree with a.22 rifle and shot him five times. He baited him. Fuck. Yeah, he baited him perfectly. And now are they still neighbors? No, the guy left for Tennessee. Because he knew if my brother got out of the hospital,

he was going to kill him probably. Oh, really? Yeah, he went back to Tennessee. You know, it's just redneck stuff. That is redneck stuff. Right? Pure redneck stuff. And does your brother still have a fish camp?

He still has a fish camp and a limp. What is a fish camp? And a limp. Yeah. Scars. Oh, yeah. Big scars. What's a fish camp?

People go fish? People go fish. Stocked ponds? No, it's a big, it's a lake in Florida. Yeah. So, you know, he charges people to fix their engines and stuff. He repairs engines. Oh, wow.

And he has, they park their trailers and all all and then put their boats in and fish for a week or something. Oh, I get it. I get it. So he rents them the spots and he sells them bait and other things. Wow. So he's had that for years? Yeah. Where's your mother in all this?

Cowering or? Seething. Oh, seething. Better. Yeah, yeah. Better. She was having a hard time. She was having a hard time, man.

You know, it's... She stayed with it the whole time? But she grew up in a real abusive place, so it felt like home to her. It just keeps repeating itself. It does, man. It does.

Have you tracked that with your genealogy? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Have you tracked the alcohol? Oh, yeah. All the way back. All the way back.

No shit. My mother's father, remember Sam Irwin, Senator Sam Irwin from Watergate great he was a young prosecutor in north carolina mountains they had this circuit where they'd go around and circuit judges you know because they'd set up a court because they didn't have enough money for these some of these rural places that right court full time yeah he was a circuit prosecutor in the trial

that my grandfather's brother was being tried for murder. During the trial, a fight broke out in the courtroom. My grandfather stabbed Sam Irvin. That's my family's touch with fame. He was one of the good guys in Watergate. Yeah, yeah. He was one of the prosecutors. He had a scar from a Hartley. He had a scar from a Hartley in the mountains of North Carolina.

A lot of drink in there, too. But like a lot of your family, they came through Jersey? They stayed in Jersey? No, my mom's side's all from North Carolina. A lot of drink in there, too. But like a lot of your family, they came through Jersey? They stayed in Jersey? No, my mom's side's all from North Carolina. My dad's side stayed in Jersey. Always Jersey. Never left South Jersey. So like your mom's family, like hill people?

Hillbillies. Total mountain folk. Banner elk, North Carolina. Up in there. Yeah, total. Total. My great-great-grandfather was a snake handler, preacher, and a moonshiner. Really?

Covered both sides. Did you spend time out there? Oh, I spent summers up there. You know, I'd go up there, and the beginning of every summer, I'd spend like four summers in a row up there. And they'd drop me off beginning of summer, and I'd fight for two days. Yankee! Yankee! Really? And then be fine for the rest of the summer.

All right, he's all right. I'm fascinated with that shit. It's all part of your... Yeah, it's all part of it. Didn't ask for it, didn't look for it, but it's like, you know, you want to go outside, and you had to go outside because the cabin they lived in was nothing.

But, like, it's so interesting what families bring because you would have just been sort of Jersey, you know, working class, and then you got this whole other world you get to go fucking deal with, this whole other dark world because of family. Wow. So you get out, you get into college somehow?

Yeah. In D.C.? No, I went to Gettysburg College in Pennsylvania, and then I couldn't get into any law schools. I went home and managed a bar for a year. Oh, good for you, an alcoholic managing a bar. So when does the booze start really fucking become... Well, obviously, you kept at it pretty good for a long time and you were able to finish college yeah i did so you weren't that

fucking out of control no i got through it i got through it i nearly you know nearly failed out the sophomore year but i got through it i changed majors got in there one that i could just you know sociology where i could just fill blue books with bullshit. Right. You know, but I got out of the ones where it required actual answers. Blue books. Essay tests. Mm-hmm. Oh, I just got, like, anxiety.

Yeah. Blue books. Yeah. The worst. So you're in D.C., you're in law school. Yeah. Where is this comedy show? It was a classmate, Howard Vine, says,

you're funny, man. You should go do, I don't even know if we knew to call it stand-up or whatever. I mean, says, you're funny, man. You should go do... I don't even know if we knew to call it stand-up or whatever. I mean, I've been watching comics for years. Right. And he took me to this coffee house. It was in the basement of this church. It was sort of a famous D.C. coffee house where people would come through, Roberta Flack,

other singers. Okay. It was in 77. It's just really in a basement. In Georgetown? No, this was in Northwest. It was off a place called Thomas Circle. Oh, yeah. It was in the basement it's just really in a georgetown or no this was a um in northwest it was off do a place called thomas circle oh yeah it's in a basement of a church uh-huh and it was just a bunch of people playing chess and there was i mean i followed a poet i mean it was so this is like the sort of tail end of the hippie thing yeah it was really a bunch of hippies in the underground left of them yeah yeah 70 what was 70 70, yeah, yeah. So comedy was happening, but there were no clubs.

No. Most comics were opening for musical acts. That's all I did when I first started. Okay, so you do this gig. You go up with what? Five minutes I planned. I planned five minutes. I wrote it out, and I pretty much said it the way I almost read it off the paper.

I could have just read it off the paper. I just memorized it and walked up there and did it uh-huh and i got like one reaction like one yeah and and and i just went back and kept i really literally went back for more of those and rewound it to that hook i could rewind it yeah i mean just kept playing it over and over again yeah i was just surprised i got any kind of reaction and i was so excited and then he found more places then i started going into these pubs that had these singer songwriter nights i talked my way on to it yeah and then i started going around and then that then i was like they they let me they said he can host one of the people started looking for me like hey where were you last week you didn't show up so

i was starting to do something because you're the only comic exactly so i was doing something different and and then you start getting mc gigs yeah yeah they go let you mc the the night and i'd mc night of course i do more material right that's how you build the act right yeah right so you do that for how many years i do that for like uh i was doing for about six months in a place open called l brookman's yeah this guy put my friend of mine on in school it was i was in and uh it was in the summer of 77 yeah and she said she brought me an ad from the washington post newspaper and classified said comics any comics want to do comedy come to this and it was in the summer of 77. Yeah. And she said, she brought me an ad from the Washington Post newspaper and it classified. It said,

comics, any comics who want to do comedy come to this place. And so I showed up and Louis Black showed up and Kevin Rooney and all these people showed up from around DC

that read this ad or somebody told them like me. No shit. And we started doing comedy there. 77? Ron Zimmerman, yeah, yeah. Ron Zimmerman.

John Heyman, there's a bunch of guys who, Bill Masters, Zimmerman. John Heyman. John Heyman was funny. Bill Masters. A bunch of guys who still stayed in the business. Some of them became writers or whatever.

I don't know where Ron Zimmerman is. He's around. He's around. He's in Marina Del Rey. He's a character. He is. I heard he came

from a big grocery fortune or something. No, his dad had a deli in dc oh that's different one store he had no fortune it's funny how things become mythic bill masters yeah married to gail burman i wrote a script with bill masters john hayman was early on the comedy channel right right he did a seinfeld episode he played a I think. Yeah, but he's been writing forever. Oh, absolutely. Right? And Zimmerman wrote the one controversial TV show that everyone held on to forever, Action, or was that what it was called? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He wrote on that. That's right. He wrote on a lot of shows. He wrote some comic books, I think. He was sort of a character that used to have people over to his house when I first moved to L.A. and I met him then. Who else did you mention? Rooney.

Rooney, great joke writer. Rooney's tremendous. Great joke writer and also funny standup. Very funny. I remember watching him. So all you guys show up and those guys had no place to work either? No. No.

It was like this little bar. I mean, really, like 60 people, 80 people. Those fucking guys were kind of big acts. Yeah. Well, we all started there. We started hanging out and doing this on Friday and Saturdays and it became

like the place like it was down in southeast Washington somebody once said how do you get to El Brookman you drive south on Pennsylvania Avenue

until you become frightened it was a tough neighborhood and you pay these local kids to watch your cars while you're in there and then they started it became like the place

people on the hill would come watch us do this it would like mercedes like i never heard that like it's a whole new like comedy element a whole new chunk of the history there you know because i've heard a lot of them yeah you know and i know all those guys and you know people who know comedy or at least who have been in the business know all those guys but that scene started organically pre-comedy club that's right with those dudes right interesting yeah so you guys went who made the decision sort of like to say like i'm going to new york because this is not real i didn't even know that new york was happening

and then a friend of mine from law school she came to see us at old brook when she says you know there's clubs like this in new york i go what because yeah come on up and she took me up to new york city 78? Right around then. So that's really the beginning of it. So that's like Catch. And I go up there, and we couldn't get in the Improv, which is like 44th and 9th. Couldn't get in the Catch Riding Star, which is on 2nd. No, 1st Avenue, around 77th. The Improv probably had been going a little while.

No, no, they were packed. I couldn't get in. They were just sold out. Right. So we ended up at the comic strip. We got into the comic strip, right? And I'm sitting in the audience. You know, you're watching.

And I've been doing it for years. And I'm judging myself as these guys. Yeah, it's when you walked into the room and the stage was at that far end of the room. That's right. They switched it around. That's right. Opening it up. Yeah, yeah.

I remember. It was just narrow. Yeah. Yeah. And I sit there and I'm watching comic after comic. And then I'm like, I'm funnier than this guy. I'm funnier than this guy. Sure.

And then Seinfeld came up, who I didn't know was Seinfeld. Right. But he had that killer material right from the beginning. And I said, I got more work to do. You remember who else he saw? I don't remember anybody else but him. And I remember the big piece about going to amusement parks. And he had that piece about the helpless father and son bumper car team, something like that.

And I was like, this guy's got some stuff here. So that inspired you to write more diligently? Yeah, work more. Yeah, I just got to keep writing. I got to keep working. I'm not ready to come up here yet. And then Garvin's opened, which was like the first paying comedy club. Right, DC, yeah.

Right. That opened in like January of 79. Then I started meeting all those guys coming down from New York to work. I was the MC. I was the house MC. Oh, shit. So he sort of hired me and said, be the house MC. And it was. I was the MC. I was the house MC. Oh, shit. So he sort of hired me and said, you know, be the house MC. And it was like I was getting paid.

So where did Masters and Lewis, when did they all split? Were you guys all friends? They came later. Yeah, we were friends. You know, the Garvin's, L. Brookman's thing became like one of those first times you realized there became a rivalry. Like you couldn't work. Uh-huh.

L. Brookman's got angry if you worked there. Did you guys used to eat at Zimmerman's Dad's Deli? No, I never ate there. Oh. I never ate there. All. I never ate there. All right. You got a problem with Jews? Scheidner?

Scheidner? Maybe you got kicked out of Germany for a reason. Yeah. No, I don't think he ever invited us. I don't think he wanted anybody around there i bet you that's true you know he didn't uh he you know i mean i can go ron zimmer story but he has his ability to tell his own story he he had he had a tough childhood yeah yeah i don draper style right yeah i should i i could get him in here but like he i sometimes you don't

know where he's what frequency he's operating at. That's a good way of putting it. How cognizant or talkative he will be. But yeah, he's definitely a character. So all right, so you're Garvins. I remember Garvins. I never worked at Garvins. I worked at the, in D.C., I think I did the Comedy Cafe the last week it was open. And I think he owned a strip club too, that guy, right?

Yeah. And then the improv opened i usually worked at that improv which was a really good improv it was it was so garvin's was a place so that was one of the first comedy yeah it was a first paying gig these guys in new york were coming down and people from la and it was exciting i think they were getting like 250 a weekend but it was huge right for them then and when did you like start to feature and shit how long did that take i was mc in there yeah and then after a couple of months like guys like overton and glenn hirsch like you got to move to new york glenn hirsch rich hall that guy he's i think he's still around here you know he's he's he lives out here somewhere and his wife yeah so

many so many people it's so funny that like i don't realize that i don't know people except from their their headshots do you know what i mean like everyone's familiar in the clubs and you see because you keep seeing them for years and you think you know them yeah and then it's like this is glenn hirsch i'm like holy shit i know you i don't know you i know your picture like it happens at the comedy store all the time yeah because i you just see these guys like i never knew who the fuck killer bees was i just saw those pictures and then and i interviewed him it was great that's good it was great but um all right so all right so you're doing it and the guys are coming down from new york glenn hirsch what does he say what do they go well all the guys rich hall glenn they were

like you gotta go to new york and i said i gotta go so i said that's it i'm done with law school and i moved to new york and like uh you were still in law school doing the feature, doing the MC shoot? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really stopped working, studying, and doing it. I mean, just barely. How's the booze? Oh, I drink it when I can. I drink on stage.

I drink, you know. But you're managing. I was managing, yeah. I was young. I was young and managing. All right. I was young and managing. And it would help.

It would help knock down doors. It would help give me some bravery. Sure. All the drugs. I went on stage under the influence of every drug I could get my hands on. Try that. See how that worked. Sure.

We did that. You know, that was part of the initiation. You know, it's sort of like, did you ever perform on mushrooms? I did. Yes, I did. It was not great. No, no. No, it's, you know, acid.

Boy, you got to hold on, man. You got to hold on. It's so funny that people who have that ethic of pushing the envelope with drugs and shit, if you really think about it, it could do nothing but hobble you. There's no point to go on stage on hallucinogens. There's absolutely other than to be like, I did it. Who's going to do that more than once? No.

No point. I did. I got you, though. Accidental. The other times were more accidental. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Because it can't be great.

No, no, no. The fear must be intensified. It was huge. It was huge. Yeah. I got trapped in one where I was opening up for, I can't remember. I think it was Robert Hunter, who was like the lyricist for the day. He was one of those guys.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wrote for him for a bunch of times. So one time we were camping, all right, and doing acid. The real shit? Yeah, real shit. And we dropped more, and then I go, oh, we got to, and then we had to drive back,

and I had to go on stage. Bad idea. Bad idea, bad idea. I got locked in one of these things on stage where it was like a, you know, just a needle stuck on a record. Just God and his infinite wisdom and man and his infinite stupidity. And I brought you Ovaltine, whatever.

I just thought it was hilarious. I was the only one. I kept doing it over. And my girlfriend was in the audience. She threw a roast beef sandwich. My buddy, remember, told her, hit me with a roast beef sandwich. And I started eating the sandwich off the floor and stuff. so you're in your own world i'm completely people just watching well it was it was just like watching sad animal exactly exactly the animals in trouble

i'm sure they were well aware something was happening that was not good oh that's fucking yeah the second dose of acid because you want to keep the high going never a good idea it's always going to be bad. Yep. So you moved to New York then? Yeah, I moved to New York. And this was 79? Yeah, yeah, 79. So the boom's about to happen.

Yeah, the only work that you could get was like Pips was 75, and then they started having all these one-nighters. Long Island? Yeah, well, no, it was out in Sheepshead Bay. Right. Oh, yeah, Brooklyn, right, Pips. That was like $75 for a weekend. And then Jerry Stanley started opening these clubs, these one-nighters. Pips is where Dice was. Right. Oh yeah, Brooklyn. Right, Pips. That was like $75 for a weekend and then Jerry Stanley started opening these clubs,

these one-nighters. Pips is where Dice was and Otto and George. That's right. Yeah, yeah. That's right. And then there was one-nighters. You could make a little money

these $55 one-nighters. That's how I started. Right? The one-nighter network. All those eastern cities, like I was in Boston in the 80s 10 years after you but there was a huge one-nighter.

That's how I learned how to do the work. Wow. That's how you learned how to do the work? Yeah, yeah. Because you got to go into, well, you don't know what the fuck you're walking into. No. And you got to do a half hour, right? Two-man show?

We had a three-man show. Oh. Three-man show. And there was no designation, oh, you're the headliner. Oh, everyone does a half? But then informally, they'd start going, you close. you know you you know what i mean you start to become a little hierarchy but moved at first was i never wanted to close i'll take the middle yeah i take i'll go take the hit that's right and get off early and start drinking early yeah yeah yeah

well i mean eventually you're like i can close but it's a time thing at the beginning it's not about skill set it's just you don't want to be stuck with short. You know, if you got to do 45 and you know you got 35, there's only one way to get 45, and that's to say you could do 48. Oh, that's how I got my first. I mean, that was like the comic strip in Fort Lauderdale opened in 1980. Oh, yeah, right. Early 80.

And so I was one of the first groups to go down there. You know, I wasn't running a comic strip back. My girlfriend at the time was carol leifer was my girlfriend right so she was going down with so i went down to the mc and like with four acts four acts and me i'm seeing it everyone about doing 20s i can't remember what it's something like that yeah but no one there's no designate no no and you're dating carol le, who we now know is not datable for men. No. Not a lesbian yet, Carol Leifer. No, she was not a lesbian then. I can safely say that.

You don't got to get defensive. Did I seem defensive? No, I'm kidding. So when she did become a lesbian, people would come up to me and go, well, look what you did. I go, oh, really? I have that much power? Really? Yeah. You disgusted her to an entire gender. You were the last straw.

That's it. That's it for that gender. All done. It was the lady reaction. It happened 15 years after we split, but it was the lady reaction. I did get to her. Yeah, it sounds like you got to a lot of people. All right, so you go down there, and that does what?

What happened was we were hanging out at Comedy Condo one night, and Kelly Rogers was on the phone. Comedy Condo. They had a phone in the condo. Yeah. That didn't last long. Learn from their mistakes, those condo owners. That was the first one.

It's so funny, the evolution of Comedy Condos, because when you do one that when the club just opens, you go to the condo like this is fucking nice within two years you're like it's a different place you don't even want to lay on the couch no it's fucking over no animals no animals and the cleanup would be the

club manager's girlfriend coming through and just changing a roll of toilet paper once a month oh there's still a few disgust ones out there oh the worst alright so what happens so Kelly Rogers is on the phone. He says, come here. And he's got the phone in his chest. Whatever this guy says, tell him you can do it.

So I go on the phone. The guy goes, I got this club in Ottawa, and I need a headliner next week. Can you do two 45-minute shows? Separate 45-minute shows. I go, yeah, I can do it. In Canada? Yeah. He says, all right, you come on up here next week.

And we work out whatever the money was, a couple hundred bucks Canadian, whatever it was i said yeah i hang up i go i got like 30 minutes if they buy everything if they if they get into everything i say i got 30 tops you know right and kelly's don't worry about it you'll fill it you'll fill it and i just started writing furiously of course and you know my strategy when i got the audible was it was this big bar and it was like a rock and roll play you used to do music you know it's a big bar and i just go up there and do everything. You used to do music, you know, it was a big bar and I'd just go up there and do everything I had that was funny to begin with

and then the same crowd would be there the next time and I'd just go, you know, it was like, every dump my notebooks, running around the audience, I was like Jerry Lewis.

Whatever you could do. Whatever I could do. Not proud. No, it didn't matter but it worked and at the end of the week, the guy brings me in the office to pay me,

he says, there's a guy on the phone who wants to talk to you. I get on the phone and the guy, I'm Ernie Butler from Montreal, I got a comedy club, I heard you did great there, you want to come here next week? Oh guy brings me in the office to pay me. He says, there's a guy on the phone who wants to talk to you. I get on the phone with the guy. I'm Ernie Butler from Montreal. I got a comedy club. I heard you did great there.

You want to come here next week? Oh, yeah. I want to write to Montreal. Uh-huh. I ended that week. Get on the phone. Guy goes, I got somebody to talk to you. Mark Breslin from Yuck Yucks goes, I heard.

Come on down. I went out as a MC, came back, rode headliner. Right. And that's how I saw myself from then on. So that was it. That was it. Canada did it. That was it. And then they started opening Clubs America. I go, I'm a headliner, man. And that's how i saw myself from then on so that was it that was it canada did it that was it and then they started opening clubs america i go i'm a headliner man and that's how it fucking happened yep thank you thanks to the canadians thanks to the canadians

so all right so now we're what 81 80 81 well whatever right so that's when all the clubs started popping like crazy unbelievable they just and they needed guys right right i imagine at the beginning of it there weren't a shit ton of guys. That was the key who could hold a crowd for 45. Right. Cause all these clubs in, in New York and LA just required you to do 15, 20.

And there were a lot of guys that held up just that 15, 20. That's all they had. And no one had that. But I think what I don't think I've ever talked about really is that transition was that there were no fucking headlining gigs. Even headliners in Vegas were doing 30 minutes. So there was no, this whole idea of the 45 to an hour headlining set

was actually sort of invented when the comedy clubs happened. That's true. You're right. You're absolutely right. Huh? You're absolutely right. And they would, and if you could do that, and they'd bring you back like,

can you come back in a couple of months? Yeah. Come back again, because there's no, guys were coming out and dying from the city. Guys would come out, they'd have, you know, 10 minutes of the rack with subway material.

Pittsburgh, they don't care. Well, I guess comedy specials were an hour, but that was really it, you know, and those were big guys. We didn't see, but those were like

Klein and Carlin. Yeah, but nobody had HBO then. Right. You know what I mean? Nobody saw those. No, but I'm just trying to figure out where the time got established

because that's an interesting idea is that the comedy club boom, you know boom required an hour and a half so they could sell their fucking drinks and drop their goddamn checks and maybe do two shows, right? But yeah, but again, unless there were two shows a weekend, they'd like you to sell as much booze as you could, so they'd let you go long. You could do two-hour, three-hour shows easily. Oh, yeah? You could go as long as you want.

They were selling drinks. They didn't care. This was before Mothers Against Dr drunk driving changed the whole drunk driving culture right they didn't care man just so the guys who were the biggest acts out there the ones who sold the most booze ollie joe prater john fox they sold booze the club owners loved them because the places were packed they didn't need anybody those are those are the two those are like it's so funny the two most notorious road motherfuckers, both of them dead, both of them fucking horrendous in a way.

Ollie Joe would do everybody's act, but John Fox was sort of a sweetheart in his own fucked up way. You had to like John Fox. Ollie Joe was, I saw him towards the end when he was just limping up the hill next to the comedy store

because he was staying in a shack that Mitzi owned and he was constantly battling gout you know but I saw him I mean he would he would come in I this is in Pittsburgh they had two clubs you know first of all these clubs became you know packed right off the bat they don't start opening these little satellite clubs in the suburbs yeah right so there was this club in Pittsburgh comedy club had one in the suburbs in Monroeville or something yeah yeah so I was working out there and Ollie Joe was downtown. I never met the guy before. Yeah.

But I'd heard about him, right? Yeah. Because the guys told me, hey, when Ollie Joe comes to town, we got to have not an eight ball, a quarter ounce and a dozen Quaaludes when he gets here first night. That's what he has to have to start the week. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

So I'm like interested to see this guy because I'd heard about him, right? How could you not? And he had this poster and it was like, well, Renegade White Man or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like his cowboy act.

There was no cowboy act. You know, I didn't, you know, I'm like curious about this guy. Uh-huh. So Saturday night, they got three shows downtown. I got two out there.

So I come in because I'm going to party with the club owners. Oh, you're going to the late one? Yeah, I'm going to watch the third show. So I get in there. That's one for disaster. Oh, man, you got it.

It's coming. So, Ali Joe's up there, man. I see him swaying, holding the mic with both hands. He's holding it, man. It's a life raft, you know? He's holding it, he's swaying, and he's drinking, man. He's drinking shots. Come on, come on.

And he starts bleeding out of his nose. Oh, is that that story? Yeah. And he starts wiping his, he's got a white shirt on with a vest, and he's wiping his nose with his sleeve. Yeah. And I'm sitting in the back of the room, and I can see it from the back of the room. It wasn't a big club, but I could see it.

Right. And the ringsiders, they're like on, they start, there's a groan. Freaking out. A wave of groan starts moving back, like, oh. Yeah. Oh. And finally, Ollie Joe looks down and sees it. He sees the blood.

He looks at me and goes, what, you fuckers don't party? Come on, another shot. Yeah. And he took another shot, and the Quaaludes and Boos overpowered the Coke, and he went back. But he had the mic still in his hand, the mic in a mic stand, and he goes back holding on to it, just falls back, boom. So all you see is the bottom of these cowboy boots,

and you can hear him going, he's still talking in the mic, but it's like you can't understand what he's saying. That's the story. That's the story. And so the club owners, Bruno Schripper and these other guys go, come on, help us get him off and you gotta do the rest of the show. I mean, we whooped

there. This guy's passed out. I'm trying to pull the mic out of his hand. They carry him off. How long had he been on? Five, ten minutes. Oh, shit. No, there was nothing. It was like the beginning of the show. And I started, I go, okay, folks, here we go. Like nothing happened. Like man down, man up. did you get it oh yeah you got him for sure see like that story i thought was the john fox story i've heard that story different versions of it i've told the story

and i thought it was john fox you witnessed i witnessed it i was there bruno bruno we have we have we have confirmation that it's an ollie joater story, and he went down. Went down. Oh, the only tag I knew was, like, doesn't anyone party anymore? Yeah. And I thought it was John. No, and then they- But John could have done the same thing. They had to put Ollie Joe in the car.

Bruno was driving back to, like, this Viking motel. Yeah. Put him in his room. When they get to the hotel, Ollie Joe wakes up. Like, well, oh, what? Like, hotel, shit, I'm going out partying. Heying because you ain't partying on me and they kicked him out of his car had to pull him out of his car uh and leave him in the parking lot drive off what a mess it was a mess well that's the funny that's the other thing outside of what we just discovered

and i don't know if it's in the book or not that the idea of what the time slots were but but this notion that there were a lot of dudes working in the 80s that were either on the run complete you know borderline criminals you know people that did not fit into the social fabric yeah who wanted to have a life where they could get fucked up sleep all goddamn day and just go through get the you know go do their little fucking act so they could keep living the life they want to live yeah yeah i think that's been around in comedy for a long time, but I just remember there were, because I knew Bastille, you know, kind of well towards the end,

and he was a great example of it. Like, he didn't want his name on the marquee because he didn't want his ex-wife or the IRS knowing where the fuck he was and knowing that he was making any money. You ever see this movie called Mickey One? No. Oh, you got to check it out.

It's like 64, 65, I forget who directed it, like Schlesinger, Mickey One? No. Oh, you got to check it out. It's like 64, 65, I forget who directed it, like Schlesinger, one of those guys. Oh, yeah. Warren Beatty stars as a comic who goes on the run

from the mob. Yeah. And he ends up like, plays on the run in New York, he ends up in Chicago. And he just takes a job at a club.

Yeah. Like at the end of the nightclub, can't help himself, like Busboy or something. Right. Can't help himself, has to get on stage eventually.

Oh, yeah? Gets on stage, they find stage they find out oh the comics on that they hear about a young comic on you know they find you but he was on the run it's the exact same thing that you're talking about interesting you know that these there were a lot of guys just like bastille you're right there were guys like i don't want anybody yeah yeah just let me yeah they were just getting by it was like uh what do they call them, itinerant preachers? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, just kind of town to town shit. Yeah. Do some damage, get out.

Get out. But like at the time, so now you're drinking pretty hard now, right? Yeah, yeah, I was. So that's the beginning of the club thing. And see, this is how I know you. Like, I always seen you act. I saw your act maybe once when I was starting out. I think it was at Stitch in boston is that possible absolutely

right so like like i remember seeing you but like when you came in you you must have been fucking sober already but you were already sort of mythic and that you were a you know like this fucking old monster that fucking hit the wall and was like you were one of the guys because there was a only a handful of guys that you know that were were those club comics and was like, you were one of the guys. Because there was only a handful of guys that were those club comics. It was like in the sense of like that we heard of. Like Slayton, Jenny, you know, you. I mean, I know Seinfeld was around, Dennis Miller was around. But there were guys that really worked a shimmel.

Like there were dudes that were the road guys that fucking, you know, that stayed there. Yeah. Like you guys stayed there. You held, you know, that stayed there. Yeah. Like you guys stayed there. You held that thing through the whole fucking thing. Yeah. Those early eighties. I was out all the time. I never took a night off. Never.

I remember reading an article once Richard Pryor was talking about being, you know, took a vacation Hawaii. Yeah. And he's there for two days. He goes, I can't take it. I get back to a crowd. Right. I couldn't take one night off.

And you were dating Carol. You were married to Carol. Yeah. You got married. Got married. Something to do. And that's there for two days. He goes, I can't take it. I gotta get back to a crowd. Right. I couldn't take one night off. And you were dating Carol. You were married to Carol. Yeah. You got married. Got married. Something to do. And that's right. And you guys used to tour together sometimes.

Oh, yeah. What? Well, you know, it was interesting. I mean, it was, I mean, we go in and she, I remember the first time we go to Atlanta, she goes, we're going to Atlanta. She goes, oh my God, I've never been. She goes, it's the South. She goes, you gotta, you gotta cover the whole show. I can only be up there for like five minutes. She's such a Jewish girl. That's what she says. She goes, there's of Atlanta? She goes, oh my God, I've never been. She goes, it's the South. She goes, you gotta cover the whole show.

I can only be up there for like five minutes. She's such a Jewish girl. That's what she says. She goes, there's no Jews down here. There's gonna be no Jews down here. No Jews. So we pull into the parking lot for the hotel. There's a kosher deli right next to the hotel.

I go, look. So she gets on stage. And of course, one of these comedy clubs opened. There were a lot of Jewish, whatever city you were in, most of the comedy fans, these were hardcore people who were, they were like comedy fans.

So there were audiences that were packed, a lot of Jewish people. So Atlanta, all of a sudden, the crowd was mostly Jewish. There's an old Jews community down there. And as soon as she hit her first reference, they got a big laugh. I went, uh-oh, I saw it.

My middle act is now doing 45. Did that happen a lot? Oh, yeah. Did you guys fight? Yeah, we fought. Yeah, we fought. Yeah, we fought. You know, I remember Foxworthy has a story. He reminded me.

He said, I was in the back room pacing. Carol's on. And, of course, she's just. And he said, I'm back there going, close with it. Close with it. You know, she's going, just close with it. Another big laugh. Close with it.

She just keeps going. And Foxworthy comes, hey, man. You know, he doesn't even know me. He's kind of like, settle down, man. You know, she's going to be good. I'd say, that's my wife. I'll tell you what. That's my wife.

I'll say what I want to say. Foxworthy, before the redneck stuff, was a really good act. I'm not saying that the redneck thing was bad, but I did one of my first weeks middling, or maybe hosting for him in Albuquerque at Laughs. And he had that great bit about, I think it was his dad on the boat that was being on the trailer, being pulled by the truck. I mean, he had he had that great bit about like i think it was his dad on the boat that was being on the trailer being pulled by the truck like i mean he had good shit he was a nice guy yeah i think he still is a nice guy he's a nice guy yeah he is a nice guy i mean you know he

he he invented a joke for him yeah that a million different ways has been done yeah you know you know and he put the punchline in front of the setup that's how good that joke was yeah and he didn't even need to set up really yeah and then like it was such i think vick henley used to write for him absolutely i wrote a couple of those sure like those guys are like you just fill them up fill them up man yeah yeah yeah so all right so you go do this so what where when do you meet sam when where do you end up in la how does that happen so you're on the road yeah and you're on the road yeah and you're in new york still with carol right right and then you both decide as a cut did you have a kid she got she got a pilot no kid did we have a kid yet did you say did we don't you have

a kid not with carol oh okay no another one we took advantage of the laws that were available at the time okay but we know she um uh got a pilot right barry levinson's show called toast to manhattan i think it was with gilbert godfrey was on it riser was on it so she she got a pilot. Right. Barry Levinson's show called Toast to Manhattan, I think it was. Gilbert Gottfried was on it. Riser was on it. So she got a pilot. So you knew all those guys because they were comic strip acts. Right. Absolutely.

Or improv or catch. Right. So back then, you had to graduate and go to LA. That was it. You had, everybody had to move to LA. Were you working all the clubs in New York at that time? I was working them, all of them, all the time. All right.

So she gets a pilot. And she says, we got to move to LA. And I was like, well, they got booze and drugs out there. Let's go. Is she drinking with you? Yeah, she would. But she, you know, you can hide, you know, and I put a big shadow on. So it's easy to hide in my, you know, you can drink and do drugs and not feel like you're

an alcoholic when you're with me. Sure. Yeah. Right. But you're also on the road a lot. I'm on the road a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But you're also on the road a lot. I'm on the road a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a planet road. Planet road. That's a whole nother world. You know, you start off and go, I'm married now. I'm not going to cheat. Yeah. Then it starts breaking down.

Okay, I'm not going to sleep with anybody that she might actually ever meet. Right. You know? And then it's like, I'm not going to sleep with anybody that looks too dangerous. I'm not going to sleep with anybody in New York. I'm not going to sleep with anybody that looks too dangerous. I'm not going to sleep with anybody in New York. I'm not going to sleep with anybody who she's friends with. And I'm not going to sleep with her. That just kind of narrows it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we moved out to LA. 82. Now, are you getting bitter yet? Not at all. It was all fun. It was great. You know, you go out on the road, you feel like a star.

You feel like a rock star. Right. People treat you great. You go into town, all the hippest, coolest people in the town were out there to see it. Well, they're sold out. So you have the illusion in your mind you're selling out. Right, right, right. You know, you go, they're packed for me.

Yeah, right. You know, you walk in. Because the clubs were just popping. They were just popping. Yeah. You know, the promo was an 8x10 on the front door and you're doing some stupid radio show once a week. Right. And it's packed. Yeah. Because I'm so good on radio. Sure. Yeah, you got a handle on that. was a eight by 10 on the front door and you're doing some stupid radio show once a week right and it's it's packed yeah because i'm so good on radio sure yeah you got a handle on that i'm good

i'm ready you're not good on radio i'm good on radio but i'm saying it didn't matter it didn't matter you know sometimes it does you know it was the only things that can pull them i loved i loved it but they were just packed yeah it was just a hot thing it became the hot thing you're making money making money every time you're getting big raises because of your deals didn't need door deals they just were paying more and more they were keeping us happy keeping me happy yeah giving you free drugs paying you more every time uh-huh but once you plant your your ass in in la who you're running with i met sam right away over at the comedy store so this is what year 82 oh so it's sam like raw sam yeah before big sam yep so he's just this little fucking unique monster yeah exactly yeah exactly and and it was fun we had

a lot of fun so who was around it was sam and of course he had carla bow and those guys were still but i was hanging out with barbara right i don't remember riley hanging out at the comedy store then i'm not sure if he was out there. Hicks, for a second. Hicks had gone back to Texas by then. Yeah, he didn't. He lasted like a year, right? Yeah, a late year. Because I met him down in Austin around that time, around 82.

He was like a kid. He was a middle-act then. Yeah. Yeah, he was. He was young. Yeah, they brought him out, and I think it got weird. Yeah. Yeah, shit gets weird with Sam.

Yeah. Yeah, you're going to hang around Sam for a while. You only got one arc with him. You hang with him for a while, and you feel it coming up, and everything's going good, and then you're spit out somehow. Yeah. Like, how long did you run with that guy? We ran with him until I got sober,

and then even after that I'd come and hang out once in a while. But, you know, in small doses. On a Sunday night show we'd come, and he'd call me his double agent from God oh yeah and you know he he knew I was sober when he when he tried to get sober myself I was one of the people he's talking to oh before the end you mean yeah yeah he was trying he felt like he painted himself into you know like all of us did like oh my god I'm not going to do any new material once I get sober what do you mean he was barely doing new material no he wasn't he wasn't he wasn't but he didn't realize it you don't realize it he knew he'd paint himself in a corner with a necrophiliac bit that's what he felt like that's what he felt like how you can top that i saw that thing happen i was a doorman when he

fucking made that thing i was a doorman at the store when he first started doing the homosexual necrophiliac thing and it was like it was like what is i think this is like the splitting of the atom. And no one remembers, but just to see him laying there and just see him rocking. Oh, what's this? Oh, it never ends. I mean that. Yeah, and that when you see it, you can only judge people.

That's what always gets me when young people go like, Lenny Bruce, I listen to him, he's not funny. Judge him by what else was going on in comedy at that time. You got to put him in context. Put him in context. And Sam at that time, you said you had a perfect splitting it out of me it was like what yeah he went to a place other comics were like well i guess my observation about coco puffs yeah you know he's right he's relatively forgotten you know in terms of big comedy acts i think he

sort of out like once he started doing rock and roll he became a little bit of a caricature but that first record right that manson bit that that's worth the fucking that that manson bit glad to see you fuckers can handle your high to erase the entire event just by like minimizing them to a bunch of dumb fucking idiots who didn't know how to do drugs properly to me was fucking genius yes he was sort of like howard beal yeah i'm mad as hell i'm not gonna take it anymore right he was that aggrieved guy he was a short dumpy little balding guy yeah and you go okay you can see he's the wounded warrior yes okay we get it right he get it yeah but then he became the bully then he became the star he's always kind of a bully yeah i'm just saying once he got that power that then he became, you know, then it was like I'm kicking women back. I'm kicking them back.

Right, right. You're beating them, you know. Yeah, but he was always. You're no longer aggrieved. That's right, because I think in his brain, he naturally had this sort of like he was going to keep pushing no matter what until he died because he thought he had a ticket in. I don't know.

It depends what you believe. Maybe you'll see him up there. I doubt it. No, that's the difference. He was a believer. Hicks don't know. It depends what you believe. Maybe you'll see him up there. I doubt it. No, that's the difference. He was a believer. Hicks wasn't a believer. But underneath it all, we used to do coke and go through the Bible, Sam and I. Yeah.

Because I was reading Pentecostal. Oh, it was hilarious. It was hilarious. We made it funny. But, you know, it was. Well, he knew that shit. He knew it, man. He knew it better than anybody.

Well, I think I always say that, that, you know, he thought that as long as he had a second at the end he could get in yeah he could ask that's what they tell you yeah that's that's right he was banking on that yeah i hope he had that second i think it sounds like he did sounds like he had he had a second i think he did he got i think he was still breathing when they pulled him out of that fucking car you don't get a corner lot but you get something up there yeah if you want to go right through the whole you know that's the heaven on earth stuff you know for sure yeah well yeah no they were very different comics because like hicks was different in the sense that you know much more intellectual but had definitely the same momentum but was seriously challenging on a lot of different levels he's you know he was a

you know he was a real thinker and sam absolutely Sam was like, when you break Steve Pearl in his infinite fucking weird wisdom. The broken wizard. Right. He said, yeah, oh yeah, Sam's a genius. Two short screams followed by a long scream. Oh, oh, oh! Yeah, he's a genius.

And I was like, wow, I never broke it down like that. It was sort of a gimmick in a way. Of course it was. But he did push it, man. And I didn't like him initially. And then when I got to know him, I got sort of sucked in. But I'd never seen, you know. I saw different sides of it.

We once did a gig, UCLA, local, a couple hundred bucks in town. We're driving over to some young guys, hired us both out of the store. And we're driving over and Sam's going, you got, a couple hundred bucks in town. Yeah. We're driving over to some young guys hired us both out of the store. Yeah. And we're driving over and Sam's going, you got to close the show. Yeah. Now Sam was starting to get hot. He was starting to get the swagger. Yeah.

And I said, Sam, I am not closing the show. He said, no, no, no. I will. I will. I'll bomb. These kids are going to hate me. I'm going to bomb and you'll have no problem following me. And I, I said, he said, look, I tell you what, if it doesn't work out, I'll give you my money and I'll still buy the drugs. Yeah. If you, if you can't follow me, trust i said he said look i tell you what if it doesn't work out i'll give you my money and i'll still buy the drugs yeah if you if you can't follow me trust me yeah i'm not gonna

throw a tank it but i'm just telling you and he was right he got up there and he did the act he did it yeah nothing nothing and then sam and because the kid had botched up his intro he kind of bombed out sam then went and introduced me and gave me this look you don't like me you're gonna like this he gave me a great intro. Yeah. And a great set. And then a couple of months later, Sam broke. This was like, you know, this happened like a few months before he broke big.

Yeah, like 87. Yeah. No, he broke big like 85, summer 85. He had the Rodney thing. Oh, right. Okay. I met him when they, I was there when his HBO special. No, this was before that.

Right. This was before, the Rodney thing broke him like overnight. Right. It was the first guy I ever saw that just shot out. Right. But this was like the spring of 85.

He comes up to me at a store after he breaks. He said, hey Rich, I'm going back to UCLA, $15,000. Yeah. And I go back, I just watched, I went back and didn't perform. I go back and I watch from the side.

I bet money there were kids in that audience who saw him six months before. And they're standing ovation when he walked out. It just changed. The whole timing had changed. The whole thing had changed. The whole, you know, you got to hit the zeitgeist of America. America got angry the second half of the Reagan administration. The second Reagan term, they got angry.

Like they realized it trickled down like they realized it's interesting too that he knew that there was no second gear that like he knew himself enough to know that those kids had not had the experience he had or were going to register the anger that he uh and he knew that about himself but he also knew like there's nothing i can do no no no he couldn't you know you can't you can't change who you are well certain types of comics can gauge okay you can make some adjustments and all that but you are who you are at a certain point if you're lucky i mean some guys they're just there to pander no matter what well yeah yeah yeah guy grocers yeah i mean but what are they selling i'm selling well yeah but it's also like there's a there's an ethic to it that like know, once you find your voice, you know, you execute it.

But ultimately, if it's working, you know, you're trying to get as many people to like you as possible or laugh. Right? Right. So, like, but Sam was not that guy. See, like, most of us, you know, you want to connect, you know. And, you know, whether you decide that your tone is angry or what, you want to connect with that. And you don't understand why you're not. And then as you get older, you realize,

well, that wasn't really my point of view. I was just uncomfortable and scared and angry or whatever. But Sam knew, like, this is what I do. Usually it doesn't work. It didn't work for years. Yeah. But I committed to it, and eventually it came around, you know?

But most guys are like, I just want to perform. I want to do comedy. I want to get some laughs. Sam, I got to assume, for a few years, when he was closed in the Westwood store, didn't give a fuck. No.

No, I don't think so. I don't think so. But he was starting to get that late-night thing that was happening over at the comedy store. Right. I remember going out to the road once and I came back and I went back,

you know, because we would always go over and watch Sam. Monday nights, Monday nights. Every night. Every night he'd go on last. They'd put him on last.

He wanted to. It didn't matter. Before people there, he'd do that opening of his, you know. And then I remember coming back one time off the road.

What was the opening? Look at the, let me see the face. Yeah, yeah. You're going to wish the hell you've never seen his face before yeah and um i came back the place was packed and it was like all these hipsters off of sunset sure you know it was the rock guys you know everything yeah and it just changed so where were you at that time working the road i was and you weren't sober yet no i didn't get sober till in may of 85. what the happened so

what happened with you i crashed man, man. I couldn't, I was just, I was just out in the road and I couldn't, you know what happened? One of the things that got me was- You were doing everything? Everything.

A lot of coke, a lot of Jack Daniels, a lot of beer, a lot of anything I get my hands on. Anything. And I got this gig where I did the rodeo

for the Texas Prison Rodeo. Yeah. It was like they hired me and a young guy named Sinbad Atkins as my opener. And then I had to drive it through a couple of one-nighters in Texas, end up at the comedy workshop in Austin. Sinbad, again, is the middle. And I never bothered about who was opening for me.

I'd follow anything. I had that, you know, I'll kill it. It doesn't matter what. Because Sinbad made me run. He had that young enthusiasm. And I was getting bitter and fat and angry. And it wasn't looking good. And he was running me off the stage.

Well, yeah, because he's a riff guy. He would just go up there with that big smile and happy. And he had a big feather boa hanging down. And he had like an orange mohawk. And there was big MCc hammer jumpsuit pants you know that kind of stuff and he was just bouncing around and happy and they were like happy to have him here it didn't matter he's like my friend bob nickman calls him a charismatician yeah material was irrelevant nickman i know he wrote on my show last yeah yeah yeah so like and you were in now

and i'm sitting there back there drinking before i go on and look at him now let's see let's watch the monster sweaty let's bring up sweaty rich it's hot here somebody turn on the fan yeah so they like bring back the the nice guy bring back the fun guy fuck you you know jesus christ this is bullshit yeah yeah yeah there you. There you go. The truth guy. Yeah, the truth guy. That's the one thing that Hicks and Kennison fucked up for everybody. It's like, oh, it's too many truth guys now. And they're all telling the same truth. And I'm not sure it's true, but they're angry about it.

Yeah. The truth guy. It's that guy. There's a tone that comes with the truth guy. I totally get it, man. I totally get it. So what do you do? You check in?

No, man. I was like, I mean, that just was the first, like, one of those seeds that was planted. Like, I remember going out and after, you know, after every night of the show, I'd be drinking and doing warm blow. And I was sitting in a bar one night and somebody was down the other end of the table and everybody was down his end of the table, man. And he was telling stories and laughing he's drinking coca-cola and i'm down there going i can't stay out of the bathroom i'm i'm just chain smoking and i i went

it's not that he's young it's not that he's a black guy he's not drinking it just i looked at what he's and just kind of yeah brett butler put a seed in my head a few months before because she was sober. Yeah. And she said, you know, you ever think about your drink? Because I'd be coming in the condo every morning at like 9 in the morning or whatever. And I came back and I was sitting at the Improv Bar. Yeah. And I was drinking every night there.

And I was just, I got to quit drinking. And Eddie, the bartender, he sent Mark Schiff down. Yeah. To go get me. So do something with this guy. You're not drinking anymore. Yeah. Do with him what you do with you. So he 12-stepped down. Yeah. Go get me. So do something with this guy. You're not drinking anymore. Yeah. Do with him what you do with you.

So he 12-stepped you? Schiff? Yep. He's a good guy. Yeah, great guy. Yeah. So now this is what, this is 85?

Yeah. So here you are, one of the biggest working comics in the country and I have to assume you got nothing but comedy. See that? Nothing.

I had nothing. That's the way, another way the business business changes like on some level you're watching dudes and women get shows get shots get deals and you gotta because you're not getting them you got to be the uh fuck that i'm i'm a cop i'd done a couple tonight shows i'd i'd you know but i i'd i'd burn out on one i did material wasn't supposed to do. And Jim McCauley, town coordinator, says, you're not going to get back on, man. I mean, I had to run out of the studio. Why?

Because I did material I wasn't supposed to do. You know, you have to set material. So you fucked that up. Yeah. Say it like it is. You got cocky. Yeah, I got cocky. I was hanging out with Sam too much.

I was like, I don't want to do this. I got to do some edgy stuff. I got to do some edgy. That's how he killed everybody. Yeah, yeah. That's how he killed everybody. He threw a rock off the cliff and I chased it. Well, yeah, but he'd also say, like,'t want to do this. I got to do some edgy stuff. I got to do some edgy. That's how he killed everybody. Yeah, yeah. That's how he killed everybody. He threw a rock off the cliff and I chased it. Well, yeah, but he'd also say, like, you got to do it.

You know, I'm going to save you some time, mister. I'll save you some time. Yeah, what, for life? I'll get you back to Jersey Zone Insurance and get this thing over with. That was the subtext. No, the Buddha has spoken. Oh, yeah. I've got to go to the mountaintop faster. It's a shortcut. own insurance and get this thing over with that's it that was the subtext yeah no the buddha has spoken yeah yeah oh yeah i'm gonna go to the mountaintop faster it's a shortcut right yeah i'm gonna run inside the business one guy at a time

yeah okay so that happened yeah so you kind of you kind of fucked up a little yeah just there was i didn't do it rehab wasn't like on everybody's you know I just went to detox on my couch. Sure, you went to meetings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're hanging out with Schiff, and he's taking the meetings. Yeah. All right, so what do you do?

I start going up again, but I mean, I had trouble. I mean, Bud kept putting me up. I would throw the mic down. I'd storm off. Sober, you couldn't handle it. Yeah, sober. I was angry, and I couldn't figure out how to get a laugh.

I was really having a hard time. None of the old stuff felt like right, and I didn't have anything new. I couldn't write a i couldn't i was angry and i couldn't figure out how to get a laugh i was really having a hard time none of the old stuff felt like right and i didn't have anything new i couldn't write a joke i thought i was done and bud would be like i'd be i remember i'd walk off early and i'd be walking up bud go see you tomorrow night at 10. i mean he'd have me penciled in for another good shot and i'd be like and uh uh i just had a joke come to me like out of nowhere i was i was running i started running against friend said, why don't you try running? And I was smoking a lot. And then I would just smoke and run. I'd run a few yards and stop and have a cigarette and run.

And a joke, you know, one of those jokes that just lands, just lands. That's how I do it. And I took that up and I got a laugh and it kind of broke me clear. And I was like. Landing jokes is the only way. It's the best. Yeah. That's it.

It just drops in. You can't sit there with a pad. You just kind of wait for it. Don't know. Sometimes you get funny parts and they work, but you're still waiting. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like one day, one day the ending will land.

Yeah. Of this joke. Yeah. I'm not one of those guys who go, let me write, I'm going to sit down and write 10 mailbox jokes. I can't do that. I can't either. They have to come, like you said, they have to just land parts, parts.

Well, I believe it's like if you are the kind of guy where you're on stage and you've got a good enough premise to get a laugh, but you don't know where it's going to go, that's just who you are. And that's how you create. You corner yourself. You're up there and you've got to be funny. And you don't know where that's going to come from or what it's going to look like. And then once most of it's delivered, you can finesse it. Yeah, the ego will push something out. Right, right.

If you work on the daytime, at least you'll have a good idea of what you're going to do when you get up there. That's right. And then, yeah, the ego will, right, out of self-protection will be funny. And then, like, once you get all the pieces going, then you can do your work. Then you can repetition, put things. Yeah. Good. So you figured it back out.

Yeah. I got back out and started doing it again. And it got better. It was better. It was better. I was better. And then the boom busted? Yep. Left me up on the shore.

Yeah? Yeah. But it was, I got a good run with it though. I had like, I got like five development deals. I was right at the perfect time. When I got sober, it was the perfect time for all of a sudden, sort of TV development deals were being passed out. Like crazy.

Like a $200,000 deal. That's right. I got in on that. I got deals. I was still working the road. Then I had these deals. And then I'd come back and do a pilot. Passed out like crazy. Like a $200,000 deal. That's right. I got in on that. I got deals. I was still working the road. Then I had these deals. And I'd come back and do a pilot.

That wouldn't go. And then I'd go back out on the road again. They'd go, you got another deal. And we're like four networks. What was mainly the... The premise. The premise for my sitcom. For you guys. Yeah.

It was like, you know, he's a married guy. I was married guy. Yeah. I was double developed behind Tim Allen and other people. That's what my premise was. He's a white married guy with young kids or whatever, some variation of that. And nothing took. Nothing took.

But you shot pilots. I shot pilots. So you made some money. I made a lot of money. It was good. It was good. And I was still doing stand-up on the road all the time. Saving your money?

No. Just because I wasn't using for drugs and alcohol didn't mean i know how to blow it yeah yeah so but you and carol bought a house no look i did buy a house i bought things i mean you know when did carol and you end uh not long after i got sober uh-huh and then but you remarried yeah yeah like 89 uh-huh and you had a kid got three really three yeah and that marriage is no more no more sorry buddy yeah i thought i'm done i think i'm done yeah are you yeah i don't want because once you get the three man then it's like you know well you got three to eight doesn't matter you got three kids so you're never done no no no no at all. They're not off the payroll. None of them are off the payroll. Good for you. There you go.

Look what you did. Good kids, though? Yeah, good kids. All right, good. They are good. I run with my oldest daughter every day, and we have fun. Oh, great. It's great.

That's fucking sweet, man. It's a good story. But ultimately, after the arc, because I remember, I'll tell you, it was hard for me to watch you in Montreal that time. When, was it Montreal or Portland? Was it Portland? Wow. I was thinking about that. And like, you know, because I knew, who was it?

Jordan was doing a movie. That's right. What was that movie? It was called I Am Comic. Right. The documentary. And you were the threat. I became the threat. He was like, go back on stage. He needed a movie. That's right. What was that movie? It was called I Am Comic. Right. The documentary. And you were the threat. I became the threat.

He was like, go back on stage. He needed a storyline. We were just interviewing comics, and he saw me looking with lust on comics on stage. He said, why don't you go back and try it again? Right. And he pointed at the camera, the narcissist, what else am I going to do? What could I do? No, I know, but I respected it.

Yeah. But there was a moment there where I saw you backstage at one of those dumb little fucking venues. And it wasn't an easy venue. It wasn't a comedy venue. I think there was a leaf. It was a garden. there was a moment there where i saw you backstage at one of those dumb little fucking venues and it wasn't an easy venue it wasn't a comedy venue i think there was a garden it was a garden there was a leader in a garden right and you know and i and i like what what what what i found um hard was that like you know this was like really for you you know and where you are in your life it's a nothing gig but but it meant everything in that moment and you were fucking scared oh it was yeah and it was hard back and i didn't know i didn't know you know i wanted to say something but there was nothing i could say oh man there were so many parts in place first of all i didn't know how

big you were those people were all there to see you were they oh my god mark i felt it i bombed so bad i mean it was not but i wasn't headlining it was just you were you were up last you were up last yeah and i didn't i was so out of it so no not relevant that i didn't know what was going on and then later that week i saw you do the podcast live and i got it but i didn't know i mean i knew who you were right and i didn't realize so i was and plus my you know it's like But I didn't know. I mean, I knew who you were. Right.

And I didn't realize. And plus my, you know, it's like one of the times I realized that my, you know, it's like my style was so 80s. Right. Was so 80s. And this was 2010 or around then. Probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And your style was the new style.

Uh-huh. And so it wasn't I just looked older. I sounded older. I performed older. It was like some guy in my era coming up and doing a Catskills act. Or my era coming up and doing- It was not Clowbo. No, no, it really was.

It was like some guy doing an act from 30 years before. Yeah. And so I didn't realize it at the time. I look back on it and realize that was part of it. But I was also just back new, so I didn't have any confidence. You're right. I was completely- And it was weird because I respected you,

and I felt like I was immediately sort of codependency feeling. Like, you're going to be all right then? I remember doing it and really trying to crank it up to the old style. Just perform it. Just perform these bits. And they weren't buying them. I'm performing it. There's nothing worse when you're really trying.

But it wasn't a fucking empty. It wasn't a real bomb. No, no. It wasn't. You know what I mean. It wasn't a silence bomb. But I couldn't get it cranked up. Yeah, yeah.

And I could feel them. And then you walked up and I remember sitting there. You pulled the stool up. Yeah. And you sat down and you talked to them. And I go, and it was so intimate and you just destroyed it.

And it was like, it was so casual. And I go, oh my God, man. I was like, I was setting myself on fire and shoot myself out of a cannon. And they're like looking at their watches, you know? But that years to sit no no no no i get it i get it no no i didn't say you got that overnight right but you that's but but i realized i went i said oh this is the new way this is it's like when the evolution of comedy it's just a constant evolution right it's a constant change well i think like but you know in my mind i mean i don't feel like

the comedy is any any different in the sense that like, you know, I go up at the store and I think that alt comedy was sort of a misdirection in how it was packaged. Because really the guys that ultimately make it are real comics. You know what I mean? Right. So like, like in my mind, just and it's not, I'm not, this is an ego, like I knew back in the day, dude sat down. You know, like Shelly Berman sat down. Bill Cosby sat down. That's right.

And I'm like, this is part of the history. So it's a weird thing that I do agree that I make a room pretty intimate. But like sitting down for me was like some sort of, that was me being like some sort of I that was me being like old school I didn't think you know I I never thought I this woman sent me pictures from 35 years ago yeah I found all these pictures yeah I'm doing this book yeah and so she she did the cover of it we reached out to get her permission to do use her picture in a cover and she was I found all these other pictures there's pictures of me sitting on a stool yucks and i said i was what i forgot that i actually would do that too yeah but it just

something i did well that's the comedy boom it's like i was a fucking you i was a pacer i never knew how to fucking i could never stand still at a mic stand yeah i always took it out right but like you know you felt like you had to do that yeah you know there were guys that you know you'd fucking walk the stage and you fucking lean in and do all that shit and what i started doing though when i when i was tanking the used to be the only reason i'd sit down was when i was tanking because i didn't want them to think it bothered me so if i was sitting down you're kidding me no if i was sitting down it was cause like i'm like i'm not gonna fucking out. I'm eating it. And I'm going to, it looks like I'm going to have to.

So I'm going to sit down. It's just right. This out. Oh my God. Cause I didn't want them to think I was freaking out. Kinda. Yeah. Wow.

I didn't, I didn't see that. I know. No, of course not. That's interesting. No, I like that.

I love that. How somebody gets to their style. Yeah. How do they develop it? But it was so clear that night, and it was really impressive to me. And then, of course, I saw, like I said, I saw the podcast being done. I wasn't aware of the podcast phenomenon. Yeah.

I was completely, I've been out of it. I mean, when I was out of it, I was really out of doing stand-up. I wouldn't watch it. I had this bitterness towards it almost. How did you get rid of that? Coming back and doing it. And I kept doing it and kept doing it. And, you know, I just took all these little one-nighters around town and opened mics and

doing anything I could and found it again and started doing new material. But I was just doing it the way I do. I just don't perform the way I perform. Sure, sure, sure. But saying new things and getting honest in my way. Okay. And it was great. Yeah.

And I'm back. I feel like I, you know, I perform. Satisfying? I love it. I love And it was great. And I'm back. I feel like I, you know, I perform. I love it. I love it. That's great. I love it.

It's fucking great story. Yeah. And, and well, I'm glad I'm fucking, I'm happy. Cause I was actually mad at Jordan. I wasn't mad at you for putting me up.

I was like, why are you doing that to him? Like, there's other ways to do this. And he's a little like, like that. Yeah. Like,

yeah, let's see what happens. Oh no, no, man. You're so true. And he's a little like that. Yeah. Like, you know, let's see what happens. Oh, no, no, man. You're so true. So true. And it's like, you know, if he wanted to do this, he should do it on his own pace. What are you fucking, you know,

because he wanted exactly what happened to happen. Absolutely. You know, in the movie, when he says, we're going to take you to the first place, he picked that place, Liquid Zoo, because he knew it was a shithole. He knew it was a bad thing. And so let's first time go back go there yeah and then of course then he goes one night he goes hey let's go down and interview some guys at j anthony brown's place

down in south central we get down there there's nobody to interview all of a sudden then he goes why don't you go up and do some time oh i knew i was going up to go over to bar we should make him do his old fucking act let's get his goddamn big feathered hair back and dumb shirts. Where's that? Where's the movie of making Jordan do his fucking old act? And he has to dress like his old headshot. That's the deal there. But he made a couple good movies.

I'm not going to begrudge him that, but there was always something like, I was just back off a minute. Relax. It isn't touching to me that you had that kind of empathy for me, which it's really pretty amazing, really,

because we didn't know each other that well. Yeah, but like I'm, you know, look, I, you know, all you guys,

whether I knew you or not, like I feel kinship, you know, even last night I was at the store and, you know, look, all you guys, whether I knew you or not, like I feel a kinship. You know, even last night I was at the store, and I walk in the main room and Joey Gaynor's on stage. It was just like, I don't know that guy that well, but I saw him trying to churn out what he was churning out. And there's just something about comics. Like, this is my fucking life.

This is my community. I don't dismiss anybody. Yeah. I'm more likely to dismiss someone my own age or younger than one of you guys. That's interesting. Because now I'm an old guy, so I get to do that thing. I got to fight with that. You know, fuck this kid.

But you guys aren't going to take a hit. You're alive. Yeah. So now the book, so was this cathartic was this good yeah it was great it was great i got i got a chance to say everything i wanted to say about stand-up comedy about my my my run through it in the 80s especially is that gonna be online thing it's gonna be it'll be kindle but also be available on amazon barnes and noble well it's great talking here rich mark i appreciate it and. And thank you. Thank you. It was fun.

Okay, that's our show. I've got to, I'm going to go take a nap. Will I play a little guitar? I wasn't feeling it, but I might just do it anyways. I got to play low because I'm recording this late at night. Don't forget the latest Mark and Tom show is up now. If you missed it, it's the episode right before this one in your podcast feed. And you can always get it at WTFpod.com, powered by Squarespace.

Let me see if I can get some sort of guitar thing going here. Thank you. Boomer lives.