WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 753 - Sarah Jessica Parker

Episode Date: October 23, 2016

Sarah Jessica Parker started her acting career at age 11 working with Harold Pinter on Broadway. That would be enough for most people, but it only got better from there. With a new show on HBO called 'Divorce,' Sarah Jessica and Marc talk about her career, her life, what she learned while dating Robert Downey Jr., what she loves about Matthew Broderick, and how she dealt with Carrie Bradshaw becoming an iconic character in American culture. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my show, WTF, the podcast. Welcome to it. How is everybody? How's your Monday going so far? How can I help you? Is everything okay at this table? Do you need anything? Would you like me to refill that for you? Before I start talking about myself or whatever ridiculousness is in my head, I'd just like to acknowledge and express my sadness over the passing of Kevin Meaney, He was a very, very funny guy, a great comic, a real original, and just purely, purely entertaining. And I used to see him a lot in Boston when I started out. There was actually a night, it might have been at Stitches, the Sweeney and Meany show with Steve Sweeney and Kevin Meany. I believe he started there, so I got to see him a lot.

And he was just a completely entertaining guy. And he died, I believe he was 60, which is too young. I don't know the situation or the conditions surrounding it, but I just wanted to acknowledge the fact that we lost a really, a really funny man. So rest in peace kevin meanie and we know you don't care that was a bit he did all right sarah jessica parker is on the show today i did this interview in new york city in a hotel room and um I you know I watched a few episodes of Sex and the City I like it but I like her she's one of those people that's just present in the

in the in the in the media landscape she is a shining star and I always liked her I I I every time I saw her in anything and she's been doing a lot of stuff for a long time even more than I I knew you just I'm sort of you relate to her somehow you just sort of like I like that lady she's she seems uh nice and sweet and charming and full of energy and talent and I don't know what I would say to her if I saw her I still get that feeling I get that feeling every time I have to do an interview but it always makes it a little awkward when I got to do it in my hotel room because the hotel rooms at the Bowery where I stay usually I don't spend the big jack for the bigger suite they're sort of a small room so it's just basically a bedroom and I you know I always

have to clean up and and tidy up and have the the cleaning person come in early so at least it doesn't look sorted somehow just come on in yeah that's oh yeah i didn't yeah that's a washcloth i'm sorry there are towels on the floor it was just one of those things where i'm already entering it a little self-conscious and a little embarrassed because it is not your standard uh professional interview situation but i found her to be very charming so she lived up to everything i expected and i love talking to her and you will enjoy it too in a minute the schedule is i will be with my partner my business partner and producer brendan mcdonald at the now here this festival in anaheim california uh we're doing a live interactive wtf event there are about 30

other podcasts doing shows all weekend that's this saturday now hear this festival you can go to now hear this fest.com for all the details and come out i haven't seen brendan in a while he's coming out this week carnegie hall is there's about 100 tickets left, and that's November 4th in New York City. James K. Polk Theater, November 19th in Nashville, Tennessee. The Vic Theater, Chicago, Illinois, December 3rd for two shows. Ruby Diamond Concert Hall, Tallahassee, Florida, January 24th, 2017. The Carolina Theater in Durham, North Carolina, February 17th. Knight Theater, Charlotte, North Carolina, February 18th. The Ridgefield Playhouse, March 2nd, Ridgefield, Connecticut. The Music Hall in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, March 3rd. College Street Music Hall, March 10th in New Haven,

Connecticut. Troy Savings Bank Music Hall, March 11th in Troy, New York. And Flynn Center in Burlington, Vermont, March 12th. There you go. If you heard your city or it's nearby, go grab a ticket, would you? I watched my new kitten, Buster Kitten, continually bully the old man monkey, which upsets me and there's nothing I can do about it. But there is something I can do about it. And it's something that, uh, I'm procrastinating on because I don't, I don't know why I'm projecting or transposing or what, but I'm having a hard time accepting the fact that I'm going to have to cut this cat's balls off. Obviously I'm not going to do it at home. Obviously, I'm going to take him to a professional to have it done.

But, you know, I don't know if it's a weird pride, but I got this cat when it was a little teeny kitten. It was two months old. He's doing all right. He's a little crazy. I can't really, I don't have a full grasp, and I don't think he does either of what his personality is going to end up being because what I'm about to do is going to have a big impact on that.

But he's grown in these nice balls. He doesn't know that he did, but he's done a good job with the balls. And now I'm just going to take him in and have his balls cut off because it's the right thing to do. And I'm procrastinating because I don't know, it must be transference. It must be transference. I'm personalizing it. I'm using empathy that is human to try to think about what it would be like to be young and just coming into my own and having someone put me into a cage, which I thought would be fun initially, and then cut my balls off. thought would be fun initially and then cut my balls off. I think I just explained a job that it's a metaphor for a job, but no, but I have to, I have to do this and it's going to be the right thing to do. But I, am I going to be able to look my cat in the eye again after I do that to him? He's going to know I've been through this with other cats, but it's been a while.

It's been a while since I had to sort of be the guy that steps in and has a cat's balls cut off. It's upsetting to me. I don't know why. It is. But I got to do it because if he gets out,

he could make more kittens. Maybe it'll calm him down. But it has to be done. And I have to stop fucking personalizing it. It's an okay thing to cut your cat's balls off. But he's just coming into himself. See, I'm negotiating. I want to thank all the people that came out to University of California

in Santa Barbara, Campbell Hall. That was a great gig. Had the wonderful Kevin Kevin Christie open up and it was an amazing venue you could hear everything the acoustics were perfect and I did a little Q&A with some students afterwards and that was uh enriching and and uh fulfilling and I felt like I was helping the young people of our country also thanks to everybody who came out to Largo last night and watched that two-hour marathon of a show. I don't want to call it a marathon because it was a good show and it made me feel a little more prepared. Because I got Carnegie coming up and I've made it a big deal in my mind. I guess it is a big deal because it is that venue.

But before I took the job on GL of other i had to move a lot of dates but i thought i was going to be doing a lot of dates and these dates are working out uh when you hear this i will have done the ice house last night and hopefully that went well i don't know yet because it's still a couple hours away doing a little time travel shifting but um but i i do i always want to be uh show my gratitude for those who come out to see me. Oh, my God. I'm getting old. I turned 53 a few weeks ago.

And I'm starting to see it in pictures of me. More. I'm starting to think, what happens now? What do I do? I'm starting to think, what happens now? What do I do? I'm starting to think maybe a small house somewhere in New Mexico. What does it all mean?

Is it all happening? Is all the meaning already there? Do I already know? Is it within me am i missing it what's happening i know this i talked to sarah jessica parker for a little while uh she's on a new hbo show it's called divorce it's on right now new episodes premiere sundays at 9 30 p.m and you can watch it anytime on hbo go HBO Now, and HBO On Demand. I need to mention this before we get into this interview because I am a moron with names. I've known people decades, and I do not know or remember their name. I think that's a skill one has to learn or else it's just because I'm so self-involved.

But Sarah Jessica brings up Paul Sims, whos who of course i know and i've had conversations with but uh when she brings up his name i'm like i don't think i know him because i'm a fucking moron and i'm self-involved i guess but i i just want to i want to set that straight because i don't want to hurt anybody's feelings so this is me and sar Jessica Parker in a hotel room talking. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton.

The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga

based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun,

a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Joy. I saw you guys get insecure. I was like, oh, it's okay.

I was going to bring water from the car because I didn't want to make you pay for water. No, I don't care about paying for water. I just don't. I get the same feeling for some reason. There are certain people, they come over to my garage. I'm like, oh, it's a mess. What is she going to think of me? No, I should talk about what we should.

I wish I were in your garage. I mean, I'm happy to be home in New York, but I really do. So if this goes well and you feel that I'm deserving of, for some reason, we've not covered enough. Part two? Part two. Sir Jessica Fargan. You know what?

And honestly, if you're in LA and you want to see the garage. I can just come by. You don't have to speak to me. You can come in. I don't usually do full-length interviews

more than once. Okay. No, no, no. I'm not asking for you to do a part two, really. What I'm basically saying is that I just want to see the garage.

You come over and then we you know, we could do like a short interview which I do a lot of you, you know, having that experience.

Okay. It'd just be Sarah Jessica Parker experiences the garage. All right, that's fine. And I'll notice things. I'll see details.

Sure, yeah. Have you ever interviewed Amy Sedaris? I have interviewed Amy Sedaris live. In the garage? No. Oh God,

she would love your garage. But she's like a unicorn. You can't, you know, like getting her to do things. Yeah. The one time I interviewed her, she was in a panic because she had to go somewhere. It was all a very rushed situation. Really? Yeah, but it was hilarious.

Yeah, she's really. There's nobody more consistently delivers whatever it is she delivers. She's really, God, describing her as a unicorn is kind of great. I mean, she is sort of, she's one of the truly magical people I've ever known in my life. Right, and every part of her. Like, whatever she's doing that morning,

you're like, what? I know. What you did what? But I think also it's because she commits such an enormous amount of, everything is given equal value. Right. You know, whether it's like, you know, going to the market to look for some peculiar, maybe

kind of contraband vegetable or finding proper rickrack for an apron she's making. She's all in. She's all in. I mean, it's a real lesson in kind of an enthusiasm. And she's like sort of, it's sort of like, she's a real lesson in kind of an enthusiasm. Yeah. And she's like sort of, it's sort of like, she's like a poet in a way. Yeah, she's really. Everything's loaded up.

Like everything has the same sort of electricity. But I would imagine she would love your garage. Like she loves. We'd probably get no talking done. She'd be taking things off the shelf. What's this? Yeah. Examining, looking underneath.

I'd like her to do it. But like I say, she's one of those people where it's like, really? She's going to come? I'd be amazed if I could get her there. We can work on that. I come back here, and I don't recognize the city. So if you have memories from that long ago. I have memories prior, because prior to my official arrival in our Volkswagen bus with everything we owned,

my real father was from New York. So we came to New York to visit my father and my grandparents, my paternal grandparents, not infrequently. So I have been coming to visit New York since the early 70s, and specifically Brooklyn, which was as unique then as Manhattan was. Totally. Meaning the changes are as obvious to the eye. But that's sort of my memory, too. Like, my grandmother was in Jersey, and I would fly back, and I'd take the bus in.

When I was 14, she would put me on a bus in Jersey. The red and tan lines? I don't remember which ones, but who would do that now? 14 years old. Go ahead. Go into Times Square. You know what? Have a good time. I think you're...

You know what's so funny? We were talking about this last night because I was a young working actor from the time I was very, very young prior to my arrival in New York. And I... In Ohio. Yeah, I started acting when I was eight.

All right, so now we can go back to that. So you were born in Ohio. Your parents were together. Correct. Your father was a professor. I'm not saying this like I'm reading it. We talked about it before I turned it on. We already talked about this. We're reviewing. Yeah, he was a poet. I'm not saying this like I'm reading it. We talked about it before I turned it on. We already talked about this.

We're reviewing. Yeah. He was a poet. He started the American Poetry Review. The American Poetry Review. And then he got out of poetry. And then he got out of poetry and my,

we moved to Cincinnati and we lived in Cincinnati, Ohio until I was 11. So from five to 11, I lived in Cincinnati. But no dad. My mother remarried in 1968. 68. Yeah, in 68. So you're three. So I'm three My mother remarried in 1968. 68?

Yeah, in 68. So you're three. So I'm three. And they are still married. How was that guy? He's wonderful. I mean, I have two great fathers. So you're in Cincinnati doing the big training?

So I'm in Cincinnati. With the local method acting? No, you know what it was? Seriously? It was because my parents read the paper. And in the paper... This is your mom and your stepdad? My mom and my the paper. And in the paper. This is your mom and your stepdad. My mom and my stepdad.

And what's your stepdad do? He is a, he's a truck driver. He's a truck driver for. Continues to be. He's a teamster. A teamster. So local, not like cross country. He's a local.

He was at that time, he was a, he was a, he was a semi driver. He was an 18 wheeler grain. He was driving grain across the country back and forth. So that's good. So you had a truck to climb into for fun. Yes, and he would pick a child, and we could accompany him on a shorter trip. And we would sleep in the cab. Right.

You know, above. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like a bunk bed kind of situation. Yeah, exactly. That's a great thing to have as a child. I mean, both my fathers are very interesting bullies, I think so. How many other siblings are there? I'm one of eight.

What? How does that pan out? How does that pan out? The original set, how many do you have? I'm the youngest of my biological parents. My mother remarried and had four more. So my mother's had eight children with two husbands. So I'm the had eight children with two husbands.

So I'm the fourth of eight. And do you know them all? I'm fairly familiar with most of them, yeah. No, yeah, I do. Pippin, Toby, Rachel, Sarah, Jessica, Andrew, Megan, Allegra, and Aaron. That's crazy. And a couple of them are in show business? Yeah, so my brother Pippin is the dean of the New School Writing, Directing, and Acting Program.

Really? Mm-hmm. That's a pretty important position. Yeah, I'm very proud of him. My brother Toby is a great and beautiful actor and singer, and he's been on Broadway a lot and is very special, very gifted. My sister Rachel was in the medical profession, and then she married and had a family and couldn't devote what the medical profession requires. And now she's sort of getting back into it. And then my brother Andrew is the house prop man

for the Roundabout's Broadway house. Oh, the Roundabout Theater? Uh-huh. Oh, my God. And my sister Megan. She's like a Barrymore. house right oh here the roundabout theater uh-huh um and my sister megan without all the sort of prestige and drunken yeah and um yeah we're we used to think we were are we the glass family like we used to imagine this is you know the the ideal version but we're in fact not it turned out

um my sister megan um pulls focus she's a focus puller. For TV? For movies. Movies? My sister Allegra is like a masseuse. She's a masseuse. Oh, really? Yeah. Groovy. She's a masseuse.

And my little baby brother, Aaron, who is no longer a baby, who's expecting his first baby, he's a teamster also. He's a truck guy? He is. He typically drives one of the vans. In New York? In the movie business. And my father's in the movie business now, too. In Cincinnati?

My stepfather is a teamster in the movie business in New York City. He is? Yes. He's here now? He's here. No one's in Ohio. Our whole family moved here. Everybody's here. The whole family moved here on January 1st of 1977. Everything we owned in our VW bus. There were six at the time.

My mother was pregnant with Allegra, so she couldn't travel with us. So as a teamster, you could just get work. Yes. That was his hope. That was his hope. We were one of the first families

to move to Roosevelt Island, but when we arrived, because we were one of the first families to move to Roosevelt Island. But when we arrived, because we were part of the subsidized housing, when we arrived, it wasn't complete. So we had no place to stay. So you were just out there on that island with that tram car? So we had to find a hotel room. And the only hotels that we could afford were not in the city. We ended up at the Holiday Inn in Yonkers.

Six kids. Six kids. A pregnant mom, maybe. One father and a mother back in Cincinnati. Closing up the house. She couldn't travel with us. And the real dad was here? And my real father at that point lived in Philadelphia.

So he was no help. Well, I mean, it's not that he didn't offer to help but it would have been peculiar for him to, you know, help with the kids. Yes, they too are familiar with each other. At that time, was it contentious or was it all right? I would say that like a lot of divorces, it was complicated.

Let's put it that way. I think it was a civilized but complicated divorce. I watched the first episode, the pilot of Divorce, of the new show for HBO. It was kind of gnarly, man it's gnarly you go from the glamorous new york city defining socialite to like this suburban nightmare but it was funny you guys i mean it was dark and it was disturbing but you guys are so good what's his name thomas hayden church thomas hayden church oh my god this is god he's so good and Molly Shannon for a few minutes

does she come back Tracy Letts Talia Balsam do they come back Tracy Letts is the one who had the heart attack yeah they all come back

quite a bit yeah they're all regulars yeah it's great really yeah I describe it as and the guy from the Friday the Concords

is he out is that it Jermaine is he back does he come back or is that it I'll say that you will there will be a drive-by i don't want to say too much right now i get it i get it i want to

titillate your audience yeah well i mean i'll tell you one thing the twist at the end and it is a twist yeah was sort of like oh shit yeah but you know it's it's it's going to be interesting because i didn't watch them all because then I probably would have spoiled something. But watching the pilot was that, you know, to keep those characters sympathetic, to keep your characters sympathetic. Yeah. You know, given what we know. Yeah. And given it's going to be tricky.

But it is because it's already sympathetic because it's real. It's real. Yeah. It's like that's what happens. Yeah, exactly. Like that scene on the train with you and, you know, and that riff she lays on you. Yeah. About like you think you're in love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like that's what happens. Yeah, exactly. The scene on the train with you and that riff she lays on you about like you think you're in love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sad, but human beings really have this very small menu of how they fuck things up.

Yep, yep. And especially smart people. Yeah. Who surprise themselves making bad choices, behaving badly, terrible counsel. Right. Which is typically their own.

Right. You know? Well, it's a rationalization thing. Yeah, and I think what I love about playing that part and what I love about her is that people used to be like, oh, you know,

do you like Carrie Bradshaw? And I was like, yeah, I mean, I love playing Carrie Bradshaw. And I love playing that part. Just for the clothes, right? Just actually for the story. I loved telling that story. And they would say, you know, is she likable?

I was like, yeah, I mean, she's a human being. But what I think is so interesting about Frances is that she is not buoyant like Carrie. She is not. She's prickly and she's chilly, but I feel like she's incredibly real and that she is like an enormous number of people who have made a commitment and gone back to the well and dug deep and are weary and exhausted in a marriage and feel that there's this sort of deadening inertia.

And that one line she says, I want to save my life while I still have a chance, I think is very real. And I think she's- I feel it now. And I'm not married and I'm not a woman. And I'm just at this point in my life where you have a moment. You're not that much younger than me. And I'm not saying that in a mean way.

No, no, no, no. Where you're like, what's the fucking point? Yeah. You know, what happens now? How much time do I have left? Yeah, know and why should it suck yeah and and so what do you do to salvage your what you imagine are your remaining years and and what i think often you discover yeah is that it's it's not for the most part, it's really with the complication of children and financial issues that are real and are a true strain in this particular relationship that we're talking about on the show.

It's not what you imagine. It's not. I mean, the liberation sort of hangs in front of you like this great shiny lure. But the truth of divorce or an attempt at divorce is just for middle class people, it is painful. If you don't have money to throw at it and get out of it clean, it is a very painful, complicated, disappointing failure. I don't even have kids and my second divorce was horrendous. Yeah, it's really, so anyway, so I love playing her and Thomas was my first choice and I cannot believe he said yes. He's so, he's a very unique performer. Isn't he? And, you know, and his ability to be funny, it's just like sort of, he's one of those

people that you just kind of wait, you know, something funny is going to happen. Yeah. And it's completely horrifying. Yeah. Wait, I want to talk about this relationship stuff though, because like what you're saying is that even when you make the choices that would, in your mind at that moment, imply that this is going to make it better, there's other things to be reckoned with, like the loneliness, the maintaining a relationship with your children that's not detrimental to them. Yeah. And sort of what have you done to the – I think the first things that have become apparent is, first of all, just on a practical level, you're missing an extra set of hands, right?

So you're a working person and you need to work. Right. You're in a job that is not satisfying in any way. Yeah. You're in debt. You're, you know, changing credit cards for the best, you know, interest rates constantly. Right. You're trying to be a good parent to make up for what are very transparent

felonies, basically. In your children's eyes, you've just committed horrible... And how do you begin? How do you sort of surface? Yeah, my brother went through it. Everyone knows people who went through it. Did you have people that you were sort of like,

you've kind of walked through this horrible thing? Well, I started working on this show like four years ago. And I was initially just interested in marriages and affairs because I was at the point where I was, I had a lot of friends who were either contemplating divorce, survived divorce, didn't survive divorce in their own way, came out of divorce thinking it was the best thing that ever happened. Both sides. All of it. And friends that were having affairs that didn't affect the marriage, having affairs that did, having affairs that were all that sort of stuff.

And I'm married for a long time. God knows you've run things through your head. Well, I think all of us sort of think about all of it. Sure. All that sort of stuff, right? And I'm married for a long time. And God knows you've run things through your head. Well, I think all of us sort of think about all of it, you know? All of us do. And I think it's really interesting. And there are great shows about marriage, you know? But I wanted to sort of, I wanted to look at it this way and in a truthful way. But that you can find the humor in all this because the environment allows for absurdity and ridiculousness and

silly you know there's things about it that you can so it's not just this sort of no it can be so do me well yeah but just like that feeling of like when you show up at the door that's i'm not gonna tip anymore like that when your heart falls through you and you realize like yeah and he's in every position you you know. He says some brutal stuff. Right there. But he's, it's his, you know. It's his feelings. It's his feelings.

And I'm deserving of, you know, I should be the recipient of those. But it's really, it's deadening, you know. But I love it. And I love what we get to do. And I'm thrilled that we got to. Are you your executive producer? Mm-hmm. And was it your idea to champion this?

I mean, did you pull it to HBO? So it's an idea I had that we were developing. Oh, it's all you. Yeah. And then, so I was, but I was focused more on the affair. So then eventually, I have a little company at HBO and we produce.

And eventually we started meeting writers, one of whom was Sharon and we hired Sharon and she wrote our pilot and then we brought on Paul Sims who's our showrunner do you know Paul?

I don't I can't believe you don't know Paul oh my god he was just here I love Tom Sharpling Sharpling's the best do you know what I love

to do to Tom Sharpling? I would love to hug him oh yeah god I'd love to hug him he's like ooh it's just he is somebody I wrote I hug him. Oh, yeah. God, I love to hug him. He's like, ooh. It's just, he is somebody.

I wrote, I sent him an email because Tom Sharpling is very special to me. And he won't hear it. Yeah. But. He was sitting right there yesterday. We do. No freaking way. We do these shows sometimes, the Mark and Tom show.

I didn't know that. How could I not know this? Well, there's only been two. Oh, okay. I feel bad. then we haven't done one in a couple years because you know we're both broadcasters and we both have a mutual respect for each other and he cracks me up so like when we have time we'll just talk oh how great so we did one yesterday oh he's just he's great he's so he's so funny and so so fond of him and i love

like you know toward the end he really he was so valuable on the set for me yeah in particular yeah like he would just know when to come by and after a take or after a really complicated hard scene whether it was hard because of the choreography or the emotion that was right or pain whatever it was, he would come by and he would just tap me on the back or just say something sort of sentimental and romantic, you know? And it meant the world to me. Yeah, he's a sweetheart.

Because he was really paying attention and it was really important to me that he come back for the second season, which he did. So, yeah, I'm just, how do we start talking about him? How'd that happen? Okay, so we hired Sharon, we hired Paul, and Paul, Who's Sharon? Sharon Horgan is a writer and an actor, and she has a show on called Catastrophe.

Oh, that's what I was mistaking it as. Right. With Rob Delaney. Right, exactly. So, but this is a separate, and so she... So your initial idea was the affair. The affair in a marriage. I wanted to have it be. That's all you had. That's all you were thinking.

I had a lot of very specific ideas. But what I was excited about when I met Sharon was she was really interested in divorce. And she was interested in some of the bigger themes that I found really compelling. And a larger part of this whole thing was 70s cinema. And, you know, an unmarried woman has always played a huge role in my life. That's huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just the ways we used to shoot movies in the 70s and the music.

So all the music, I don't know if you've noticed, is from the 70s. Yeah, I did. Now that you mention it. Because. And that one scene where he's outside watching the events in that suburban fancy house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was very 70s. Isn't it great?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was good. And he's just standing there like a doofus. It's really sad. Yeah, it's brutal. But it's beautifully shot, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, no, it looks great.

I figured the reason I wanted that 70s music is I was like, oh, this is the music. This would be the music that informed their growing up lives, right? Sure. This was the music they fell in love to. Right. Not even with each other,

but they fell in love the first time and the second time and the third time and the 11th time and this is now the music that they are falling apart to.

Right, yeah. The music you smoke your first cigarettes to. Yeah, it's really good. It's all so evocative. And it's just what could we afford. So anyway, yeah. All right, that's good.

That was smart. These songs can't be that much. Oh, my God. It's crazy. No, it's really crazy. And we're a tight show. I mean, we don't have like a crazy. We're not profligate with the money.

We're really like, we're lean. Are you? Yeah, we're lean. Is that your choice? Yeah, because the more... I always feel like HBO is just sort of like, how much do you need? No, I mean, not with us. But I prefer that because I feel like...

Maybe you wore armor and stuff and there was some fantasy. Yeah, or maybe if we were an hour. I don't know. But the thing about that kind of discipline and limitations is you're really thoughtful about every choice. And then if you really want something, you can argue for it. But if you're constantly asking for rain machines for no reason, then it's like stay not too late. Just because you can say the F word on HBO doesn't mean you have to or you should. You should be mindful.

And then when you say it, it's got like, it really, it's got basement. Yeah, I'm in. After a pilot, I'm in. Oh, good. I hope there are at least 12 others who say the same thing. Oh, no, it's going to be good. Or 1,200 others. I think what's going to be interesting is to see it is a really wild dramatic shift for your cultural

character like you know you you know you sort of like reinvented new york city with that show and you you represent this thing like you get i imagine you can't even walk down the street that easily can you no i mean i i'm physically i'm capable right but there are people that like to stop and chat let's put it that way. You know, it's always sort of like, I'm sorry. I don't want to be rude. Yeah. I got some things I need to say to you.

You know, they like to share intimate details. But yesterday I was running to actually a charity dinner. And I was like really running. And all these young girls. And I was like, I can't. I can't right now. I would. Because you feel bad, right? I feel terrible.

And now it's not even autographs. It's just pictures. No, it's just phones. Yeah. So listen. So you know, okay, because you know Louis C.K. so well. You must live close to him. No?

I think we do. Yeah. So he and my husband have... Matthew Broderick. Have become... I've been friends for a while. And we were talking about this, you know, the phone calls, the phones,

the cameras, Oh, Louis got no policies, no phone policies. Right, so what he did, but now we hear he doesn't anymore and you can confirm this,

but this is, okay, so this is what Matthew told me that Louis said is when people came up to him and said, may I, he would say,

they won't. Yeah, they won't. They won't. And it was so disarming and so bizarre that people were left stunned, and then I guess he could move on freely, right? So they go, can I take your picture?

He's like, I'm sorry, they won't. Yeah. So I was like, well, this is brilliant. This is like so complex. So I decided last year to start trying they won't yeah which amused me to no end and it was really interesting experience to see people sort of stop and be because it's kind of like no it's not no and usually it's an answer to the question that they just asked their friend do you think they would right i'm sorry they won't so i so we tried this this was funny it would it worked in a you

know we just made it work i made it work but then i was traveling and we went last year um my husband myself and my kids we went to sweden we landed in stockholm this was for a family holiday yeah you know it's evening there and that it's june and the night sky is is you know it's evening there and it's June and the night sky is, you know, it's bright until like 11, but it's exquisite. And the city, you know, the skyline of Stockholm. And I say to the kids, and we've got a babysitter, and I say, you know, Papa and I are going to take a walk. We're going to cross the bridge in Stockholm, and you guys can hang out here.

And Matthew and I are walking across the bridge, and we're like, oh, oh, the Swedish people, look how, they're so classy. There's no one, cameras and phones. And we're having this really pleasant, we just feel like we've been completely freed. And we're walking down small, narrow streets in the old town. And I just see something out of the corner of my eye. And I know movement now. Right, yeah, yeah.

And this woman leaps up from her chair and she comes running after me and she's like, oh my God, Sarah. Oh my God, Sarah Jessica. Oh my God, I'm here. Can I take a photo? And she's got a thing. I go, they won't. And she goes, who's they?

She's the first person ever. Who's they she's the first person ever who who's they of course literally i was like tears were i was my husband i ran like small children we ran away from her but i could not believe she said who's who's this right classic new york jewish logic what are you talking about i was like what do you think i'm a moron said, who's they? And it had to be in that accent with that intensity. But then I heard that Louis doesn't do it anymore. I heard he's now just no. No. Yeah, no, that was my idea.

So how does he do it and not feel lousy for the next 20, 45 seconds? Do you know what I mean by that? Yeah, I don't know. You'd have to ask him. But I think that ultimately, what you start to realize also with you, I'm sure you know, that if there's a street situation, that if you let one person, all of a sudden there's 10 people. And I think that what happens over time is that people know that they're being intrusive and it's a gamble. Right, right.

You know what I mean? Well, you know, they're asking you while the camera's shooting. This is the other part that's odd. Right, or else they sneak one and then they become sort of dicks, you know? But I can't imagine, like, I don't know what kind of fans you have, you know, but I imagine they're pretty respectful

and they expect a lot out of you. But Louis can get any number of different types of people. Yeah. There could be guys like, yo, Louis! Right. But you get that too, I bet.

Yeah, I mean, I kind of, you know, I get kind of all of it. I live in New York so I'm on the streets all the time. I mean, the thing of, you know, I get kind of all of it. I live in New York, so I'm on the streets all the time. I mean, the thing I try to say, which is foolish, because by the time I've, like, you know, trot out this kind of mini monologue,

I could have taken the picture. Right. But I try to say to them, isn't this more meaningful, just this exchange of me saying I can't, that I'm with my kids. You've tried to say that? I say it all the time. I'm like, pretend we're in a time machine and it's 1940 and you don't happen to have

a camera with you. Or when people are like, oh my God, I can't believe I don't have my camera. I go, I'm so glad you don't have your camera. Because now what we're doing is we're going to have a quick conversation about, I'm sorry, I can't, but I owe you. I'm always like, I owe you. Next time you see me, it's going to be a better moment. I owe you.

Oh yeah. Until you get the one guy who's like, you've said that five times, Sarah. But I feel like, I wish people would just just because they're not even looking at you when they're asking you for this picture they're not yeah they're getting their phone ready yeah i was like but wouldn't you rather just for two seconds just tell me your name where are you from and it's weird because the photos are here today yeah like i've done meet and greets and like i'm exhausted after a stand-up show and then i see people on Facebook posting these pictures of me but one eye open

like my mouth I know there's like dozens of pictures of me exhausted but there's no there wasn't actually an exchange

that they can call upon right other than the shaking hand of trying to get their phone to work and it never works when they want it to work

at that moment which is heartbreaking by the way it is it is like relax you know I always feel like it's okay and I can't help them because I don't have an iPhone so I don't know how to use an iPhone It never works when they want it to work at that moment, which is heartbreaking, by the way. It is. It is. Relax. No, I always feel like it's okay.

And I can't help them because I don't have an iPhone, so I don't know how to use an iPhone. You don't have an iPhone? No, I have a BlackBerry. Why? I've had one since 1999. Well, that's good. Yeah. So you're not distracted constantly.

I'm a very... Monogamous with the phone. Yeah. That's good. So you have, what, three kids? I have three kids, yeah. How old are they? My son, he'llamous with the phone. Yeah, yeah. That's good. So you have what, three kids? I have three kids, yeah. How old are they? My son is, he'll be 14 in October. Yeah.

And my daughters are new seven-year-olds. They're twins. Wow. Yeah. So is that, are you enjoying that? Every single day? No, of course not. No, yes, I know I do.

I love it. And you and Broderick get along good yeah i get along i like him still i really like him he's an interesting guy yeah he is he's a he's a he's like a kind of like a secret weapon like he's like a quiet yeah very funny too he's very funny he's bright. That's good. Yeah, he's great. That's good that you survived the whole thing. Yeah, I think it's, let me see, wait. 92 to 2002, 2002 to 2012, 2012 to 24 years.

24 years? Yeah. You've been with him? And we've been married. It'll be, let's see, 24, we'll be married 19 years in march that's impressive i don't know i feel bad for him sometimes you do yeah like when when because we loved amy sedaris so for so long and then amy and i met um in in 2000 uh yeah we met on we were supposed to start rehearsals on September 11th for a play. You and Amy.

Yes, in 2001. Yeah. And we were crazy, crazy fans of Amy's. Yeah. And when my husband finally met Amy, I felt like, shoot. They should be together? They should be together. And she always used to say,

I'm going to drive a wedge between your marriage. I'm going to drive a wedge between your marriage. And I was like, I don't think you have to work that hard. Like, I think if he were allowed, like they should be together. Should they? Well, I feel, I feel sometimes I, I see him and I'm like, well, you know, that person should probably have an opportunity to spend some time with you, but I'm not really willing to do that.

I always picture Amy to be above all these sort of mortal struggles like marriages and stuff. Well, yeah, because they should be together, but how much can Matthew handle? Like, look at the rabbit. I don't know. I think that's a good question, but we'll not know. We'll never know. We'll never know. The rabbit's on my head. But she does other things

besides want to look at rabbits. Sure, look at the cake I baked. She's a great, great reader. I know. She's a great thinker. I'm not trivializing her at all. I know, I know. You're not, I know. I don't know. Yeah, so yeah, long time we've been together.

All right. Long time. Well, I'm sorry that, I mean, maybe there's still time for that. I don't know. Who knows? Who knows? But let's get back to the VW van.

Okay. So you get here. It's not good. You're staying in Yonkers. You're at a hotel with your six siblings and your truck-driving dad. Your mom's in good. You're staying in Yonkers. You're at a hotel with your six siblings and your truck driving dad. Your mom's in Cincinnati. Your real dad's in Philadelphia, not being a poet.

Correct. He's being a businessman. Correct. But was there a real distinct sort of like, I'm done with poetry. Fuck letters. I'm out. I mean, I should probably let him tell his story. But we don't do fun things. We have no time to talk about it. Tell his story. But I think what, honestly, I think what happened is that he, after he stopped writing poetry,

and I'm uncertain as to why he stopped, he became a journalist. Oh, okay. And he was, I think, a successful journalist. And I think what he really was interested in was business. And he started small businesses in Philadelphia when Philadelphia was sort of reinventing itself and redoing its downtown, you know, the new market. You like it? Yeah, I like Philly very much.

That Reed market or Reed? Reading market? He was part of this thing called the new market. Oh, okay. I just like Philly. And I think it's a great, beautiful city. I mean, it's complicated and rough, but it's an exquisite city.

So anyway, he started the first, I think the first Dan and Frozen yogurt store and a bath store. He helped revitalize. And then he went into penny stocks.

And then he went into, he was one of the early... Is that another name for junk bonds or junk stocks? I think penny stocks are like low value, you know, but I think in bulk maybe.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what happens in the trade of penny stocks. Then he had a thought that he should buy and bundle big time from the telephone companies and sell them to local people. He was one of those early kind of sprint guys. So he had a company called U.S. Watts. Okay. That was a phone company. That was a phone company that would buy in bulk and then redistribute at lesser prices like all of those companies that flourished. So he's like Robin Hood.

Sort of a renaissance man. Well, he's like, I'm taking the expensive phone and you can get it for cheaper. Yeah, except I'm not certain it was meant to be a good thing. A good thing. I mean, I think he was looking. And then he retired. And now he's retired. And he was in Brooklyn?

He lives in Pennsylvania. Oh, okay. He lives outside. Did he remarry and everything? Remarried in 1984. Okay. A fantastic woman. Yeah.

So you're out there on Roosevelt Island. That's incomplete. So then we finally get to Roosevelt Island. Yeah. And we live there unhappily. How can you be happy out there? I don't want to knock anybody. I'll get emails now.

Like, we're very happy on Roosevelt Island not being in touch with anybody. I went out there once on a one-night bad decision. And I was like, where the fuck am I? What did I do? Well, I think a lot of people live there very happily now. It's not Staten Island. It is right there. We were the first families.

And I think it had not worked out. It was a social idea. It was an idea, a community idea. Yes. And for families who couldn't afford to live. Is that really what it was initially? It was because it had subsidized. It still has subsidized

the island is still broken up into subsidized as far as i know middle right upper middle and then there's like you know high-end fancy housing that's interesting so it's a really social experiment yeah i think so and the reason my parents knew about it was they had read about it in new york magazine they did a big cover story on this island that was being built. And we applied to the management company that was operated out of the city. It was like a municipal

organization. It was Urban Dwellers Management. And so we applied through that program. And then we moved there. And my mom, who's not a snob, had never, even though we were poor she'd never not had her own washer and dryer and she'd never lived like this and i will say how these places were not built well you know we moved in and the sink was crooked and the walls were made of tissue paper

and it was an experiment i think we were not equipped for. But why New York, though? What was... I think my dad wanted to work here, and we were young actors, and... So that's... We didn't get to that. So that started in Cincinnati, the acting. And all of you were doing it? Not all of us.

My brother Toby and I, both of us were actors at the time. And I think my parents thought that my dad could be a truck driver here and later he he started a business that transported broadway shows on the road so he would do the buses and the trucks for those bus and truck companies and i'm not certain why they made this sacrifice my mother was a school teacher for years until until i was about two or three, and then she couldn't anymore. I mean, she had a lot of kids.

And she taught in Appalachia. She taught in the foothills of Appalachia. So she taught second grade, and her students were anywhere from like 7 to 14-year-olds. And now what is the—your father is Jewish? My real father is Jewish. Both his parents are Jewish. I always thought you were kind of Jewish.

I know people do, but I feel like I don't really have a right to claim that. My father is, so I'm half, right? Right. And my mother is not. So, I mean. Yeah. Culturally, I identify in a lot of ways. Well, that's sort of, there's that weird line of New York Jewish, New York Italian, New

York Irish. So you can fall in, you know what i mean because you're new york fall into i mean i'm have some claim right i mean of course my father my father was not observant um his family wasn't as observant his parents weren't um but yeah but we were raised with no religious education of any kind do you have any religion now? No. Is Matthew, what's Matthew? He's half Jewish too, right? Matthew's mother was Jewish and his father was Irish Catholic.

How was he brought up? Not observant. But his mother's worldview, I think he would agree with, was very much from the point of view of a Jew. Like always looked at the world with that lens. Right. I think not uncommon also for her generation. She's passed.

Sure. Which is, I think, I see this as a Jew. She came to New York as an immigrant family? No. She was born here. Oh. And there's like third generation. But New York Jews.

New York Jews. True New York Jews. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's sort of wild, though, that you both have this very, like, Irish Catholic and Jewish is not that unusual. Right. And then, like, just to, like, his mother, he's actually has some, he's theoretically

Jewish. Yes. His mother was Jewish. He always says, if Hitler, yeah, if they came, I would be taken. I'd be on the list. Yeah, and I would maybe straddle. You might be able to get away. But now with the internet, they can get anybody.

Be in some sort of purgatory of a waiting period. Sure, yeah. You get leniency. But my mother, when I was younger, she always said that she was an atheist. Because my parents were very political. And so I think her thoughts were, how could there be a God? There's so much conflict in the world, and there's so much pain and loss and inequality. So how can there be a good God that is allowing?

So her thing was like, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God. Working class progressives. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And my stepfather is a Green Party member. Really? And he is a Christian.

A true old-fashioned Christian. Do you know what I mean by that? Yeah. I mean like... It's in him. He is not like a... He is not a new Christian. Not a moralist, but like a... Not at all. Right. He's extremely principled. His parish is the most diverse building I have sat in with.

But it's about Christian principles. Christian principles of volunteerism, community, giving to others, service. Yeah, completely. It's really beautiful. That's a very noble thing. It is. People who really abide by that and they make their life, and they find joy in that. Who are tolerant and accepting and are wanting to hear from people who are different than themselves.

Ideology that is counter, and even anathema. This is the type of community that he worships at religiously, literally every single Sunday. Even if it gets in the way of a family event. That's something. That's beautiful. We've gone a couple times. My daughters love it. Why wouldn't they? We have a really wonderful Unitarian

church in New York called All Souls. I get there. They send a morning... Every day you get their little wake-up call? Yeah. It's, I should read. Do something nice today? It's, they pull from, you know, scholars and people of faith.

I haven't had one of those. I get it every morning. It's a daily meditation. But it's not about God. Do you actively meditate? No, I wouldn't have the patience. I tried. Do you yoga? No. about do you actively meditate no i don't wouldn't have the patience i tried do yoga no do you what do you do nothing i run around new york i live in a town i run up and down stairs all day long and we came back and my daughter's last night i came home and i ran

upstairs to the room with my daughter loretta who's unbelievably honest. She was like, Mama, why are you so out of breath? I was like, first of all, because I'm like 150 years old and second of all, I just, because I'm 150 years old and I just ran up the stairs nine times

to get you what you need, I'm out of breath. Seven year old. So you've been in show business for like a long time. Yes. 40 years really it's in the when you came from cincinnati what you had done what community theater children's theater no i'd done proper i so when i moved here by the time i moved here i'd done a play on broadway a real

true beautiful play directed by harold p called The Innocents. Do you remember Harold Pinter? Oh, are you kidding me? How old were you? I was 11. Wow. I had just been on Broadway. He directed an adaptation of The Turn of the Screw, the Henry James Turn of the Screw. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which William Archibald in the 50s did a beautiful adaptation for the stage.

And it was me and Claire Bloom who played the governess. And Harold Pinter directed it. And I auditioned in New York. was 10 uh-huh went to London to rehearse came back we went out of town like shows used to do you know Philadelphia Boston came into New York played the Morosco Theater and not only do I remember Harold Pinter but I was I was mad for him. I was crazy as a young child even. What was the impression?

Well, first of all, he was beautiful. He was beautiful. You know what he looks like, right? I don't. Oh, I wish I could pull up a picture. He was extremely handsome, distinguished. And a genius. He smelled so great. He smoked and he drank.

And he wore a proper men's cologne. But not an intrusive or aggressive. I had never been around somebody like this in my entire life. I mean, you can imagine. Like classy British dude? Yeah, like, you know, at that time, arguably, maybe the greatest living playwright on that side of the pond, right? Because Miller was still alive here in our

country. And Pinter, and he was smart and exquisite and a great director. A great director. And at the time, to his death, then with Lady Antonia Fraser. Do you know who Lady Antonia Fraser is?

She wrote Mary, Queen of Scots. Yes. And they had had this wonderfully scandalous relationship. She had been friends. She was married to someone else. He was married to someone else. They had been, she had been friends, she was married to someone else, he was married to someone else, they'd been friends

and then she left her husband and went off with Harold and Harold, they stayed together till his dying, till his last breath.

My mother loved, and Lady Antonia Fraser who wrote great historic books on historical figures, the most important and,

you know, most talked about of her books was Mary, Queen of Spades. So they're together, right? Yes. And they're traveling around with their true old Louis Vuitton steamer trunks. Yeah.

Then Claire Bloom, who is a magnificent English actress, right? Beautiful. The most beautiful diction and sound of a voice you'll probably ever hear her boyfriend at the time was philip roth oh my god so my mother yeah always said jokingly that she married my father because he reminded her of philip roth right you know yeah two jewish yeah if you saw a picture my dad you'd be'd be like, wow, that's uncanny. Intense Jewish men. Right?

Smart writers. Scary. My mother read The New Yorker her whole life. You know, would go to the library as a young girl and ask for The New Yorker. So here we are on the road with Harold Pinter, Lydia Antonia Frazier, Claire Bloom, and Philip Roth. They're all there? Picture my mother. They're all there.

We're traveling from city to city. In a bus? Or you're just meeting? We're flying, but we're there every day. Oh, that's insane. And the companions are with them. Anyway, like Harold, we would go to Boston. I was a ballet dancer,

and Harold would make sure I got out of rehearsal to go take classes with the Boston Ballet. I mean, he was amazing. He was amazing. You're like 10 years old, and you're in the hot core of New York intellectualism and international arts. I know. It was great.

But I only knew that because of my parents. Because my parents knew that. But you felt the impression. Most assuredly. What was your 10-year-old impression of Philip Roth? I thought he too was really handsome. I knew immediately why my mother said that about him. He was so chic and sexy.

I mean, I knew that. When you're little, you don't not know things. It's interesting because that time of culture being at the forefront of New York intellectual culture and theater culture and international literature and art being at the forefront, it's like gone. I mean, the 70s was it. I know. Everyone thinks we're just nostalgic because we're old and that's like no but the seven like we must re-examine like carl pinter and philip roth might be on the dick cavett show together definitely and like have it show right and and people now it's all done yeah we used to listen we used to watch all the time yeah right that's so specific it was

like i knew i wouldn't have known obviously if my parents didn't tell me but i you could feel it so you do annie right so i come to new york after pinter after pinter i come to new york this is true we arrived in new york and i had an audition I believe for Pretty Baby really yes and with Louis Malle with Louis Malle and at the time there was this great casting director in New York who was in the Gulf and Western building which is now the freaking Trump you know the Gulf and Western right that was the circle Paramount had a correct right exactly and the movie theater was underneath and um so my father was looking for someplace for us to stay so he dropped me off yeah and uh I went up and my first audition was for Pretty Baby and I got called back

and called back and called back and um eventually read a few times with Louis Moll so that was my first day in New York. Literally, he drove down from the Holiday Inn, dropped me off at the Golf and Western building, was like, I'll be back. Anyway, didn't get that movie. Auditioned, got some other stuff. And then Annie opened,

and I wasn't around for that original audition because that had happened prior to my arrival. The show had run for a little while already the show opened in april of 77 right right but they started out of town before i came so at one point soon after i arrived there was an audition for the first replacement who was going to leave the show right after it opened right so i went and my and my parents had taken us to see annie they had cobbled together enough money to buy two seats and four standing room so we would stand and then two people would switch after intermission so two people could sit and then

two people could sit right and we watched the show and have have you ever seen Annie? I haven't. Did you see freaking Annie? No. Oh, no. It's great. No, I know. I like the song. It's indisputably. No, it's a perfect show.

I promise you. It's a perfect show. And I saw it. You know, I was 12 years old. And I was like. Certainly a perfect show for a 12-year-old. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And my dad said to me at the time.

And I never sang professionally. Whatever. He was like. Yeah, he could see my eyes. He was seeing. And my dad said to me at the time, and I never sang professionally and whatever. He was like, yeah, he could see my eyes. He was like, he said to me, you're just not any material. Oh.

You know that. And I was like, I know, I know. I know. But anyway, I got a call because I think

those girls could belt. They were belters and they were big, you know bold performers and that was not my style right and but anyway i got an audition for the show and i and i and i um and i came to this audition and um and i and i sang uh the song nothing from a chorus line which was this great song um that this character uh, Priscilla Lopez's character sings about being Puerto Rican and wanting to be an actor and going to performing arts

and never really achieving what the drama teacher, and the drama teacher keeps telling her, you're nothing, you're nothing. You should just go to the Catholic school down the street. And it's got like a curse word in it. But I love this song. I saw it, I'm sorry, I'm all over the place, but I saw A a chorus line before it

opened on broadway when i came to do the innocence yeah it was in previews across the street when you came correct and a chorus light and i went to the previews before it opened before it became like the biggest yeah of the time yeah my parents got tickets and i was like they sure I mean that was a seminal they love it they love it so that song became my song but then it was like controversial that I sang that because there's a line she says except the feeling that this bullshit was absurd

and I sang that in my audition for Annie I wasn't really a belter before I got Annieie i did a show at the manhattan theater club with charles strauss who wrote the music and the lyrics right for annie for annie yeah and martin sharnan directed that show and it was a review of charles strauss's music so i'd had that experience then i came over i auditioned for annie i got

i got i got the part and when i got the part of July, the orphan, some might say it's the most boring orphan, but I liked her. They said, also, you're now going to be the understudy to Annie. Because Andrea's going to leave. The original Annie's going to leave. When she leaves, Shelley Bruce is moving up

into the role of Annie. And we need an understudy. But before that happens, Sarah Jessica, Shelley's going on vacation. When you come into the show, Shelly will be on vacation. You have to learn Annie first. Because if Andrea doesn't make it,

you're first up on deck. Because the understudy's on vacation. She's on holiday. You get a week of rehearsal. They taught me Annie first. they taught me annie first they taught me my bad my track for july opening night january of 1978 biggest snowstorm in new york city in 36 years all those people in the cast they all live in philly including andrew

mccardle she's not gonna make the show literally they're like you might be going on to play nanny i was like what what the fuck yeah but i didn't care i was like 12 i was like yeah okay where's you know tell me where to go tell me what to do anyway she got there in time but a bunch of other people were out we had to kind of reorganize the show eventually there was an audience they came yeah yeah come on new yorkers right you know if you have tickets find a way. Anyway, did the show. Did it for a while. Then one of the original cast members, a grown-up, who played a very pivotal role of Grace Farrell,

that's kind of ingenue lead opposite Daddy Warbucks, was leaving. And any time an original cast member leaves, the whole creative team comes back to watch and send them off. Shelly, by then Annie, was out sick. I was on. So I did the show in front of all the creative team. And they came back and they were like, you're going to be Annie. I was like, all right.

Come on. I was like, no, really. I was like, all right. Yeah. But I had auditioned for a TV series. And I got the part. But I got the part where my parents were out of town. My brother was, my oldest brother was taking care of us.

And I said to them, listen, I'm going to give you my notice and I'm leaving. To Annie? Yeah. Martin Charnin came back and he was like, you're one day shy of a two-week notice. And I was like, come on. Really? And he's like, you're one day shy of a two-week notice. And I was like, come on, really? And he's like, stay and I'll make you Annie. And I was like, can I get that in writing? Because I don't believe you.

And he did. Do you know what that TV show was? It was called Me and Max. So it didn't even, did it run? I don't think it ran terribly long, but it was good. It was the guy that created Welcome Back, Otter. Right. James Comack, I think, was his name.

It's interesting about TV, though, because you're a real theater person, and there's nothing more satisfying than that, the immediacy of that, the connection with the audience. I mean, I can tell you telling the story, it's one of the greatest stories you have. Yeah, it's a good story.

No, but you can feel it. Yeah, yeah. The excitement of that, and of theater in general. Yeah, because nothing can feel it. Yeah, yeah. The excitement of that and of theater in general. Yeah, because nothing can mimic it. Nothing. And I love television. I love the speed and the immediacy and the limitations and the urgency and all of it.

But it's a different type of acting. But it's a very different type. And it's a different kind of rigor and discipline. But I do remember laying in bed the night before I took over the role. I played this orphan for a year and then I played Annie for a year. And I remember lying in bed and I shared a bedroom with my sister and I was thinking to myself, looking at the ceiling like, I gotta play that part for a year. Right.

Yikes. Right. I'm almost like 15. Right. I should maybe be in high school now. Maybe I shouldn't be playing little orphan Annie. Right. But I knew this was, you know, an opportunity. And actually the other day i was living too right i mean living i was

contributing to my family yeah you know and it was important so and i loved it worked was it like how did that work with you know your father being the type of person he is when you had those kind of conversations you being probably the the biggest breadwinner of the family at that point um well man yeah maybe i was But was there sort of like, we're going to put this away for you, and then this is going to... I think we put it away, but we also, if we needed it, we used it.

And that was just an understanding. I mean, we didn't... It was interesting because we didn't talk about it, but we talked about it. It was made clear that we were contributing because the family was contributing to us right and um my brother when i was doing annie on broadway he was doing runaways on broadway he was another the the elizabeth suedo show runaways it was a musical so he was in that original cast so he and i

when i was first doing annie we were living on Roosevelt Island. And we would meet and take the N and the R train back home. So he was contributing as well. But I never had any resentment about that. And even though when I left home and I was almost 18 and I had by then done square pegs. How long was that on a season? That was only a season. I had a, I didn't have a. Were you living in L.A.?

Did you live in L.A.? I lived at the Oakwood Garden Apartments on Coinga. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where they put people up who don't live there. Yeah. It's a furnished apartment. Like a lot of the divorced, like recently divorced men. Uh-huh.

Ugh, God, it was really bleak. Even I thought, I didn't care. It really depressed me. You were like 18? I was 16, 17. So who was there with you? My mom and two siblings. In Hollywood.

On Cahuenga? Is that Hollywood? I think it's over the hill. It's Toluca Lake. Yeah, right. I found it really... Yeah, how could a furnished apartment situation be happy? It really depressed me.

Yeah, I didn't care for it. But how long did you stay in Hollywood or in LA? So I did a season of television of that. Yeah. Went back home. Did Footloose after that. That was a big thing. That was a big thing.

And then by then I was 18 and on my own. And starting to want to be in movies. Yeah, and I had done a bunch of movies by then anyway, like smaller parts. So, I mean, I was a journeyman. I was happily a journeyman. I thought I had the world on a string. I mean, I had the career I imagined was and still believe is the best possible career. You worked.

I was working and I was working in film and then I was working in television and then I was working in theater and then I was able to pay my bills. So there's no real disappointment about one thing not happening? No. You were a working actress and you were getting good parts. I was trying to get jobs that I was proud of and work that I was excited about and people that I wanted to work with.

That was, if I could pay my bills and I could eat and I could take the subway and get a slice of pizza, what more, honestly, what more could I want? take the subway and get a slice of pizza. That's great. What more? Yeah. Honestly, what more could I want?

And you've been in the public eye for a long time. I mean, you dated Robert Downey before it fell apart for him in a big way. Yeah, I was with him for eight years. You were a kid, though. I know. Like, how old were you, like 19? We were 18. We met when we were 18.

Where'd you meet? On Firstborn, a movie called Firstborn with Terry Garr and Peter Welleter weller yeah he's like an astoundingly talented man that guy yeah yeah he is but you were with him like you were just kids but you saw that you must have seen that it was like going to be a struggle i didn't you know i'd never i'd never seen drugs right done drugs right been around drugs even though though Square Pegs, it turns out, was riddled with drugs, which I didn't know at all. You were Annie. Yeah. I was, I think I was naive.

I wasn't innocent, but I was naive. And I didn't recognize things that maybe somebody who had dabbled in that world would know as signs but i also felt i think like a lot of us do about a lot of things which is like well i can i can deal with that i can fix that i can help once i like that time it was sort of like we're all doing oh my god it was crazy it was everywhere it was everywhere um and we weathered a huge amount of that but but eventually i felt that uh i guess i just summoned the courage to leave him and not the the biggest i think the biggest hardest choice about those kinds of relationships is

uh feeling brave enough to leave even if you're afraid they're gonna die like that's because you stay not because you're in love anymore you love this person and you're afraid that they will die if you aren't there to shore up their base every single solitary day work like alan on codependent you know i tried at one point because he went to you know we we did like you know many interventions and everyone was like you should go to alan some Al-Anon meetings. And I went to some Al-Anon meetings and I remember coming home and saying to him, gosh, you know, Downey, I, they're just, they seem so angry. I'm not angry. I'm worried. I'm not angry.

And you're young too. And I felt, yeah. And I wasn't, you know, tired of it yet. I was just didn't want him to die. Like I just didn't want him to die. Like, I just didn't want him to die. Right. But we're friends still. It's kind of great.

Well, it's a great sort of success story with him, you know, because I'm sober, and he seems to be holding the line. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah, yeah. How long are you sober? 17 years. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's real.

Yeah, and, you know we we have some common friends and i'm just like i'm impressed when people can especially going through what he went through because it seems that right after you broke up and also i guess you were really this was your home new york yeah so that made it came home yeah a little easier or harder i don't know what but like it seemed like right after you guys broke up that was when he was like yeah it was mad and i imagine you just had to sit there and go, like, I hope, you know. It was weird. Well, I did sort of, although I got pulled back in later in a way that was very dark and scary.

What does that mean? I guess it just means, like, I got off a plane in Los Angeles, you know, and I, you know, there have been some years spent not together. And I got off and, you know, you would go to the luggage thing and, you know, I had a flip phone at the time, like a, what would be the brand?

You know, like the only brand at the time. Oh, I don't remember what it was. What was it called? Whatever. Oh, Jesus God, it's so sad. Anyway, the one I always wanted, I had it. And I flipped it open and they were like, you 100 messages and they were all like did you hear about downy downy downy and a lot of people calling me saying can you help can you step in and help what did happen he disappeared

and it was that really bad like he was public chapter yeah he was on the run. And I was pulled back in. I'm not certain why. But anyway. You found him? Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. You were the one. I was working with some other people.

Right, right. But it was, I had not seen him that bad. He was never that bad when we were together right and um it's it's a very it's like a it's like a it's like a muscle that atrophied and then it's like you're working it out again and it just comes back and devastating yeah yeah yeah and that then you guys got him into treatment i guess again yeah i mean i think that wasn't the end i think there were a couple more but but yeah it's i'm Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you guys got him into treatment, I guess, again. Yeah. I mean, I think that wasn't the end.

I think there were a couple more. But yeah, I'm thrilled for his health and well-being now. But what did you learn for yourself in that moment where you're like, that all came back so quickly, that it was as dangerous to you in a way? It felt more dangerous to me than it had ever felt. Right. dangerous to me than it had ever felt. It felt like I had entered a sort of an alternate universe of really scary associations and really scary, a habit that had become genuinely scary. But everything around it too was dangerous. It was, it was who was he communicating with? How was he,

you know, conducting this business? Who was in his life? And how often was he putting himself in true, like, on me, putting me in danger and asking. Just with the people in these situations. Terrifying. Right. And I guess what I learned is that I had real, like I had a real allergy to it all of a sudden. Like I really found, like it had a real allergy to it all of a sudden. Like I really found,

like it made me sick to my stomach and it made me so sad. Like I couldn't get over how sad it was because it was a very different kind of relationship with drugs then. Now versus there, that was like, since you were a kid, like innocent, that would be like champagne to, you know, chasing the dragon is like, even even though i mean that's really the leap but

so it was you know i i i you were scared i was terror i was really like i set up a whole system of like being in touch with people the whole time and pretending that i was calling in for my call time because i was shooting a movie at the time and You got really sucked in. I mean, I was so scared. I was scared. Yeah. But I was scared for him too, but you know. You're alright. Yeah, I'm fine. He's good. He's well. And you learned a big lesson that it's not, you can't save somebody. No, you can't.

You can't. It's an important lesson. And every time you think you're special, like every time you're like, no, I know he's difficult. Like a girl that's like a boyfriend that's coming with all these warning signs. No, no, no, no, no, no. Just like give me two weeks of them. No.

No. Not your job. No. Well, that's a good lesson to learn. It's very good. It seems like you got some extreme training in it very quickly. Yeah, it was like a master class. And it's nice that you're still friends.

Yeah, we are. It's very nice. That's beautiful. Yeah. All right, so let's just go through. I love this. Okay, so Sex and the City. I like that we're at a point in time where, yeah.

But I imagine, though, having worked as long as you had and done movies and done everything else, and even though you say that you were just a journeyman and everything else, this was probably a break that you didn't anticipate would be as big as it was. Correct. And it was spectacular. Yeah. It was. From beginning to end. I mean Correct. And it was spectacular. Yeah, it was. From beginning to end.

I mean, the experience itself was spectacular. Yeah. It was, I did the pilot, never thought about it again like you do. And somebody on the street stopped me and said, hey, I saw your show. And I was like, what show? She said, I saw your, you did a pilot. And I was like, I literally do not remember what she's talking about. She just texted and said, oh, you saw that? I haven't seen it. Right. She was like, oh, it's good. and I was like I literally do not remember what she's talking about she said sex instead I was like oh you saw that

I haven't seen it she was like oh it's good I was like oh okay then it got picked up and then I became panicked and tried to get out of it really? I really tried to get out of it

why? because you want to do movies? because I was like well I got it all now I can do a play this year this month and then I can run do a part in a movie

and then I can you need to be strapped to it right because in my head there was like you were on a thing and it was seven years and then everything was run, do a part in a movie. And then I can... You need to be strapped to it. Right, because in my head, there was like you were on a thing and it was seven years and then everything was the same every day and that terrified me and I talked to my agents

and anyway, they... I'm so grateful, but they talked me out of my panic and I went to the set the very first day. We were shooting on Bleeker Street in 6th Avenue. Never looked back. There wasn't one day that I didn't want to be on that set.

Not one single day that I didn't think doesn't get better than this. Oh, it's great. Yeah, it was the experience of a lifetime for a lot of reasons. A lot. I think it changed. Well, not only did it change TV in a way, but it changed the city and it gave a lot of people a sort of, you know,

an outlet of glamour that had not existed before and it integrated communities around women. Yeah, and I think it was about, like, hopes. I mean, it sort of was an idealized, heightened version of what this city could promise. Right, yeah. But I think the thing that I loved most

was the storytelling, was the clothes were fun and titillating and language salty and the city looking all sparkly but michael patrick king's writing and being able to live a life that long and literally another person who gets to have all these really sort of very colorful, very erratic heartbeat. Like that kind of is, with his words, a dream. You know what's amazing to me right now with you is that, you know, I've watched some, you know, I've seen Sex and the Stadium.

I was not like, oh, my God, it's on. No, no, no, that's fine. Yeah, yeah, that's cool, that's cool, that's cool. No, but like. Not like I was with air america for instance right in the mornings with me yelling about things yeah but um do you miss any of any oh god no what in what meaning like to be untethered from that dialogue day to day like every day of that and how you know like no matter what i feel in terms of what's going on or about politics is that you know my revelation when I started

the podcast was that, you know, existential challenges are what we all share. And as soon as you start talking about politics, very, very rarely are you speaking exactly your own mind. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. You're going to tell a party line of some kind or another. Yeah. And that in and of itself is divisive. I mean, people know my politics, but there's people who do it better than me. So why don't I just talk about the difficulties of day-to-day life as opposed to the tone of me talking about it. I do it on stage.

And I have done it a bit on the show. See, cycle. Yeah. It is a responsibility. And on the stand-up stage, I'll do a bit. You know, I do some. And like you're doing some on what? Say it stays tonight on Trump.

On the nature of what the American president's responsibility really is. What qualifies someone to be that? What is driving people to vote for one or the other? Having a certain amount of empathy for people who I think are making the wrong decision and trying to understand that. And also realizing that it's rare that these people are great people all the way through. And we just had one that was really good

and people seem to dismiss that. So I try to be, because if I'm not a little bit diplomatic, if I get strident, I don't even like my tone. I've been on stage recently where I'm like, I don't even like my tone. Right, right, right. It's annoying me. No, I understand.

I understand. Yeah. But what I was going to say is that when I see you in a movie, I saw that recently on TV, the Bruce Willis movie came on on the boat and stuff. Striking distance. Right. But like, I just identify you as you. Like when I see you in this,

in this, in the show Divorce, you know, I'm not thinking like, no, Carrie Bradshaw, you know, like I don't have that. Go good, yeah, yeah. Like you, to me, transcend the character, which is a beautiful thing. Thank you.

That's nice to hear. That's a great relief. And it was great talking to you. Thank you. Likewise. It was a dream. you. Thank you. Likewise. It was a dream. A dream come true. Seriously.

Like I told you in the lobby, I should repeat it for your millions and millions of listeners, but I'm just a massive, massive admirer. Oh, well, thank you. So it's a total, and I will not ask for more. I will simply say, officially make it, you were on the record inviting me to the garage, not to speak, but to speak but to look but on correct but on mic you can look on look on mic okay that's a cool thing actually sure for a show sure look on mic look on mic instead of but instead of wtf it could be look on mic that's

like another spin-off yeah yeah but what is this thing you did like because i'm about to do a thing the genealogy thing because i I was poking around on Wikipedia. Who do you think you are? Yeah, yeah. It was amazing. Because you found out a lot of stuff. I found out a lot of stuff. Yeah, I mean stuff that I thought we were newcomers to this country.

I thought I had no connection. I thought I was a mutt, which I was fine and very actually. But now it's a very defined mutt. I'm not a mutt. Oh, no, no, no. Thank God. My family on my mother's side got here 12 years after the Mayflower. We were on the map.

My family. You can find all that shit there? Yes, it's real. Because I'm doing one. I'm doing a gene. They did my spit. When are you? Oh, you're doing that one.

Well, I can't wait to hear who you are. Me neither. I hope you're not disappointed. I had some concerns about who I might be. It sounded like you won. You hit the ancestry lotto. I hope you're not disappointed. I had some concerns about who I might be. It sounded like you won. You hit the ancestry. I did. I mean, yeah.

All right. Yeah. Anyway, thank you. Oh, my God. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I feel very sated, like a good meal was just had. Well, then, great.

Me too. Good luck with the show. Thanks, man. Lovely. Lovely. I, you know, there's just some people that are just, they're, they're everything you think they are and their, their charisma. And I love talking to Sarah Jessica Parker. I'm going to play two chords over and over again

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