WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 754 - Ron Howard

Episode Date: October 26, 2016

Ron Howard knows the key to longevity in show business. He should, considering his evolution from child actor to sitcom star to award-winning director to highly respected producer. Ron divulges that key to Marc, and also talks about his experiences with John Wayne, Henry Fonda, George Lucas, Robin Williams, Mel Gibson, Russell Crowe, and Tom Hanks, who he just directed for a fifth time in the new movie Inferno. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it ron howard the director actor producer uh living embodiment of show business has been in show business his entire life and has uh maintained his integrity as a decent and nice guy ron howard is on the show today so that's great how are you i'm all right thanks for asking uh things are going good spread pretty thin i'm starting to think about things this last weekend i did three big shows around the la area up in santa barbara on friday night with uh kevin christie opening at the campbell hall it was amazing and then i did um largo on saturday night and i just i was up there for like

two hours working it out I really wanted to have a tape of that but something went wrong with the sound system then Sunday night I did the ice house another hour plus uh show and it was a great all great shows I want to thank everyone for coming out it's really those are the last three major workouts I'm going to have before I go to New York and do Carnegie and I feel uh I feel good today feel confident today I'm going to have before I go to New York and do Carnegie. And I feel good today. I feel confident today. I'm a little crazy otherwise. But the comedy felt good.

I was engaged. I was locked in. I was present and funny. And it was exciting. Largo was exciting. You know, when you look at your watch and you've been up there an hour and 45 minutes and you still got stuff to do, that's, uh, I don't know. That's, uh, you have to, you do something for your entire life and you work hard at it to know that it is, uh, that it comes to you like that and that you can sort of stay in the saddle that long. That's, that means you've, uh, you've

become a professional at something at the very least of occupying a stage space for two hours, at something at the very least of occupying a stage space for two hours half improvisationally and half uh structured but just uh being having it be your home having it be your home away from the horror that is ongoing in your mind but uh thank you again for coming out those were fun shows very self-conscious right now. Seem to be searching for ways to kick my own ass. I'm just a little overextended right now. And I find that I can't quite appreciate that when you're spread thin, your emotional capacity is diminished. And anybody's needs of any kind just seem like some sort of imposition. I guess that's not a boundary issue. I guess that's just a management, personal management issue.

I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do to find the space. I don't know about the meditating thing. I really don't. I don't know about the meditating thing. I really don't. Maybe I'm losing my mind. Wouldn't that be a bad thing just to get to this point and all of a sudden everything starts fragmenting, everything starts breaking apart? Pow!

I just shit my pants. Justcoffee.coop. See that? Comes back around. Haven't done one of those in a while i watched um that documentary on glenn campbell last night about alzheimer's and it was just devastating it was just devastating and i keep feeling like i've got this little window here now that i have i can afford to enjoy life i've got this little window between now

and whenever things start to go wrong. And I'm starting to feel old a little bit. I'm starting to feel the joints. I'm starting to feel the anxiety of it. And then I start thinking about my own mortality. That's why I can't meditate. That's why I can't meditate. And I felt horrible for Glenn,

but it was also sort of a fascinating journey and courageous thing for him to do that tour as Alzheimer's started to ravage his capacity. And, you know, at the core of it, what was left was his ability to sing and still play guitar as his mind and memory started to dissipate. And it was sort of fascinating, the vulnerability of that and the courage of that. I don't know how aware he was of it, to perform in that state where everything is very present and then goes away as fast as it happens. And just the vulnerability of those emotions in those moments as his condition progressed and they showed footage of him on stage, sort of having immediate emotional responses to

things that are happening that were frightening. And it does say something about vulnerability and about the responsibility of other people to handle and to be there for people's vulnerability of any kind, whether it's helplessness or just emotional openness. It's very odd that something like vulnerability or being that present with your feelings and fears publicly is so jarring, but it really is. It really is, even if it's relatively contextualized and controlled, that if you find an outlet for it, like if I'm on stage and things start to break down and then I explore vulnerability, the experience of my feelings in the immediate present to those people who are watching

must be sort of like, oh no, what's going to happen now? You know, I imagine on the negative spectrum of that, it's the same sort of feeling you get with uh with someone like donald trump who is impulsively just blundering through um his uh his feelings publicly um and a lot of people like me are just you know you're waiting for a train wreck but the people that find strength in his primarily aggravated feelings of vulnerability are just empowered at the tone of it. Strange thing. Scary shit. Vulnerability is scary. And it's scary to witness.

But in both the good and the bad ways, it can be the purest form of human interaction there is. You know? Not everything is scripted. It's like when I do these sort of keynote events that there's this process, there's this program, there's this structure to people talking to other people. Everything fits within this frequency. It's the same with entertainment a lot of times is that you're expecting something controlled,

something worked out and professional. There's a safety to it. This is the act. This is the pitch. This is a fully conceived event and idea. I imagine that's why people like sports. And I never really got into that. There is that outside chance that something amazing will happen.

But most of life is set up so that is avoided. Just relegated to content. Render it down. I'll work this stuff out. Did I mention Ron Howard? Ron Howard is on the show today. Director, actor, producer. Ron Howard, a man who's been in show business

for his entire life, really. And it's interesting, when I was talking to him, that the sort of recollection i had about happy days happy days was important i'm a 53 year old man i don't know exactly when it was on but i do remember in uh gee it must have been fifth grade maybe fifth grade fifth or sixth grade i dressed up as fonzie i dressed up as a greaser as they called it i just remember it because i was really kind of upset and wanted the the perfect sort of da kind of greased up hair but my hair was too thin to do it and i was what 10 11 10, 11. My dad knew a cop who was a patient of his.

So I was able to borrow his leather jacket that was kind of undermining to the rebel spirit of the greaser archetype to have Albuquerque police force patches on the jacket. But the effect was there. I remember, I guess it was a sock hop situation with some sort of dance and we were supposed to dress up. And I knew this other kid, Robert, whose hair was so thick that he couldn't grease it up properly. And his mother put bobby pins in it.

Again, that sort of undermined the effect to fifth grade boys. One with a leather police jacket on and the other one with bobby pins in his greased up hair. Go to the sock hop. But nonetheless, Ron Howard, an amazing career in show business is here today and he directed the third installment of the Da Vinci Code Insanity called Inferno starring Tom Hanks. That opens tomorrow, Friday, October 28th in theaters everywhere. But he's done a lot of other things and he's a very decent guy, nice guy and a guy who gets things done.

And I was thrilled to have this conversation with him. This is me and Ron. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. have this conversation with him. This is me and Ron. Chicken tenders, yes, because those are groceries, and we deliver those too, along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

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18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Howard. Ron Howard is here. I never do that usually because I'm going to do the intro later. Do you edit them? Yeah, we'll edit a little bit. Okay, great.

But I don't imagine you're going to say anything that you're going to be like, oh, you've got to take that out. No, probably not. That's probably not me, really. No. I don't assume that I'm going to see some version of Ron Howard that no one's ever heard before. Nobody has anything bad to say about you. Everyone says you're the nicest guy in show business.

Yeah, well, you know, nice is a uh i think decent how's decent decent i think mostly it's just kind of not an asshole i think i've tried to avoid being an asshole as much as possible did you ever experiment with it uh i never really intentionally did but of course inadvertently i'm sure there's plenty of people you could find there's one guy with one story about that ron howard yeah what an asshole. What an asshole that was. Might not characterize me as a complete asshole at all times. Right, right. But would acknowledge some asshole behavior at some point.

Well, yeah, I mean, who doesn't have that? If you didn't have a little of that, what kind of weirdo would you be? I guess so. But, I mean, you've been in the business, so, I mean, and I know you hear this, but I've talked to people that you know, like Michael McKeon, Gary Marshall was here before he passed. That was an amazing interview. But there's something I get fascinated with about this town and this industry

is that when you started when you were a kid, it was a much smaller business. Yes, very small. Yeah, and everyone knew each other, kind of. In fact, my father, Rance Howard, who's still working, I think his SAG card is like 5,012 or something. And mine's a pretty low number. Right. And so, yeah, it has changed.

I mean, he did. He was acting in live TV in like the late 40s and early 50s. Here? In New York. Yeah. And they were from the Midwest. They were from Oklahoma. But you don't remember Oklahoma?

You were born there? Yeah, I mean, we visited a few times. I was born there because, tragically, my mom had had, my dad was in the Air Force at the time, and she'd had a stillborn baby on the base, at the base hospital the year before. Where was the base? I don't remember. Mississippi or something.

And not overseas. Right. And so she just wanted to have me in her home hospital. So I was delivered by the same doctor who delivered her in Duncan, Oklahoma. So that was the reason. That's the reason I was born. Trust and I want to be home. Yeah.

And your grandparents were there probably? Probably. Yeah. Yeah. And they met at OU, at Oklahoma University. Wow. And shortly after the war, and they were both in the drama department. Really?

Which was kind of an unlikely thing. Yeah. That was a really important drama department, though. A lot of pros came out of that. Like who? Dennis Weaver, a guy named Lou Antonio was in Cool Hen Luke and became a really good TV director. I think a guy named Victor French was from there. There were quite a few. And even to this day, they have, I think, one of the premier theater programs and musicals for some reason. But he, you know, he was from a, he was an absolute hick. I mean, complete, just a farm boy. Well, you think about early movies. I mean, that character, those character actors from the American Midwest were important.

Well, he really wanted to be, you know, Roy Rogers. And that's what hooked him on the idea. And Gene Autry, but no one, fortunately, nobody told him he couldn't carry a tune because he wanted to be a singing cowboy. And then, but he, you know, he had something and he met my mom who had, who, you know, was, didn't pursue acting professionally until much later in her life. But everybody said she was kind of top notch there at the school. Yeah. And it wasn't until much, much later that I realized that she was the real engine in the relationship in terms of actually having the guts to basically be, what, almost like

immigrants. I mean, they didn't know anybody. In New York. And they just went to New York. Yeah. And well, yeah, she was supportive and probably kept everybody together. Well, yeah. I think at that time she still wanted to act and she just found the business so cold and miserable.

They acted together. In fact, before they got married, they were, they were traveling around in this children's theater troupe. Uh-huh. Years later. Yeah. When the Andy Griffith show was on and I had, and I, they wanted me to go to New York. Yeah.

Now we were living in LA. They wanted me to go to New York and do some publicity and stuff. Yeah. And. For Andy Griffith. For Andy Griffith Show was on, and they wanted me to go to New York. Yeah. Now we were living in LA. They wanted me to go to New York and do some publicity and stuff. Yeah. For Andy Griffith. For Andy Griffith Show. And my mom took me. My dad was probably working on Gentle Ben with my brother Clint at that point. And was in Florida.

With the bear. Dealing with the bear and the gators and the ticks and the mosquitoes. So we went. And the one thing, she loved New York. But so we went. And the one thing she, she loved New York, loved New York. And the one thing she wanted to do was go to the automat.

And they still had these automats. Where you get the pie in the little window. Yeah, and they put a quarter into the window and get a sandwich out or a pie. And we did that and it was crowded.

And she said, there are only two of these left. And, you know, and we, Rance and I used to eat here all the time when I was, you know, a typist at CBS. Right right and all and uh and all of a sudden we i heard this voice and it was uh kind of a low voice it was gene gene howard and we looked across and and couldn't

really see anybody it was real crowded and suddenly this this dwarf comes walking through with this literally a cigar in his mouth. Yeah. And it's Gene Howard. And she knew his name, and they hugged. And she said, this is your boy from the OP, from the show? I didn't know that. And we talked for a minute, and she said, you know how I know him?

And I finally got the story. What? They were in this children's theater group touring around in this bus and stuff and truck and uh and giving doing trading off doing uh cinderella and snow white and the seven dwarfs and when they did snow white they had four dwarfs and in fact my dad would often like hide behind some bushes or a window or something and on his knees and be the try to be another dwarf right and to fake it a little bit but so anyway um she's told me the story. And by now I was 12 or something. And she said,

you know, we fell in love and we'd met at OU. We got this job doing this and we just fell in love on the road. And you couldn't get married because it took three days to get your license because of the blood test. You couldn't get married on the road. Couldn't get married on the road. But Kentucky, you could get married in one day and we found out we're in Kentucky let's do it and we did it and we were just going to go down to the justice of the peace and just do the whole thing and they and they wouldn't have it and they decided they took all the sequins off the Cinderella dress and in the hotel lobby after the show the the four dwarves were you know they were that was the were... That was the wedding party?

That was the wedding party. And they were completely drunk by then because they were drunk all the time. But this guy was one of the witnesses to my parents' wedding. That's a hell of a show business story. Yeah. So I was, you know, I wasn't exactly born in a trunk, but you know, the spirit was there. Yeah. And your dad did theater and television and radio in New York? He never really did much radio. He did theater. He was in Mr. Roberts with Henry Fonda.

Really? Yeah, and toured the country with that. It was a good job. With Henry? Yeah. Wow. It was great. And later I did a television series with Henry Fonda, and it really did me a lot of good

because he was very quiet and all of it but he he really liked my dad and and he had remembered seeing my mom pregnant with me uh-huh and uh it gave me a tremendous connection and he was wound up this is really jumping ahead but he was he wound up being the first sort of bona fide serious dude who said if you love movies you should be a director because he saw that i was making super eight movies and writing and he said you know and i know you're an actor and and and uh and that's great but but if you really love the medium of movies it's a director's medium and started giving me film books and things like really of course i lost i lost him like but he didn't direct any much or at all i don't think he ever directed he produced it he produced oxbow incident and a couple of other movies and um

found that kind of unsatisfactory but he didn't love film he wanted to he kept going back to stage oh yeah yeah but anyway so my dad he did yeah he did live tv and he did theater and then and then uh the korean war came along and he looked like he was going to get drafted so he enlisted so that he could get in the in the theater you know uh core core and uh he ducked he kind of ducked that that way but it made him really angry because he had some had some heat going oh really and suddenly it was disrupted for four years and he had to kind of fight his way back into the business wow but when you were in new york does that was that where you i mean before you did i imagine well how old were you when you started doing television out here?

Well. You're like, it was before. Right. It was before. It was like, and the first jobs were live shows. It was Playhouse 90. Live television. Live television.

In New York. Well, that was in LA. We moved out to LA by then. Because when we got back, the first job i ever did was a little thing where uh well it was called a movie called the journey right it was in you it was took place in um it was shot in vienna it was it was about the hungarian revolution starring mule brenner and deborah carr and uh five four still uh and and and so my my dad was making the round so my dad directed summer stock also yeah and so one year when I was, I guess, about three, he was doing Mr. Roberts, a show he knew real well. And he saw that I was hanging around and kind of picking up the dialogue. And it was a great summer. I kind of remember this

because they let me wear a life vest and jump into the swimming pool whenever I wanted. I kind of had the run of the joint. It was really great. But I also would like to watch the rehearsals. And he saw that I was picking up on the dialogue, and he thought that was kind of funny. So we worked out a scene. If you saw the movie Mr. Roberts, it was Jack Lemmon and Henry Fonda again. Yeah. Playing Mr. Roberts. And he did a thing where he would be Henry Fonda, and I would be Jack Lemmon.

Yeah. And do this scene. Right. And people got a big kick out of it. Sure, why not? Kids are funny. You know, they are. And if they can do the lines, it's kind ofmon. Yeah. You do this scene. Right. And people got a big kick out of it. Sure, why not? Kids are funny. You know, they are. And if they can do the lines, it's kind of cute.

Yeah. So he was wandering around making the rounds, which is a thing, that's the way actors got work in New York. Right. And had to just show up and say, got anything for me? Really? Yeah, yeah. Theater, no matter what, the little role, couple lines.

Little roles, anything, and you got to know the casting directors. Right. And you just hit the pavement day after day. And it would actually lead to work. A couple lines. A bit of little roles, anything, and you got to know the casting directors. Right. And you just hit the pavement day after day. Mm-hmm. And it would actually lead to work. Right. And one day he went in and there was just a swarm of kids there. And he left a note saying, Rance Howard dropped by.

Hey, by the way, I have a kid who's a fine actor. And so they said, bring your kid in. Yeah. So I went in and I did my scene. And they said, do you think he can learn anything else? He said, I have no idea. But the Jack Lemmon scene? Yeah. We did the Jack Lemmon scene? Yeah.

We did the Jack Lemmon scene for him. And here, now I don't remember any of that, but I was still three, and they did a screen test. They wanted to test me. And I actually, here's what I remember. I don't remember anything about the test, but I remember my dad teaching me the lines and telling me to really look in the other actor's eyes really pay attention listen to what they're saying don't just think about the lines think

about what they're he was teaching me good fundamentals and and then he had a buddy of his come over and hold a tin can on a stick to be like a sound boom yeah and kind of shake it over my head so that I wouldn't be distracted it's a little bit like you hear about tiger woods like yelling at him in his back tiger woods his dad yelling at him in his backswing right well this wasn't that harsh if it's a boom guy boom guy don't know don't look at him look at look at the actor right in the eyes and and uh so i wound up getting that part yeah and they and my parents looked at each other and they said we're broke yeah um we're never gonna go to We're never going to go to Europe.

He's never going to have any money. Yeah. Let's do this. Why don't we go? And they would give him a part also. Yeah. And he never has to act again. I mean, we'll just put this away.

This will be something for him. Right. Good experience. And we'll go to Europe. Yeah. And we did. Yeah. And so when I got back.

And they gave him a part two? He had a part two. Yeah. And that enabled go to Europe. Yeah. And we did. Yeah. And so when I got back. And they gave him a part two? He had a part two. Yeah. And that enabled my mom to come over. So the company was cooperating. And we toured around afterwards. And I went to Venice and other places. I worked with Yul Brynner.

I remember him very vividly. You do? Yeah. Why? Well, because he played this Russian colonel or something who was guarding the, you know, he's part of the Hungarian Revolution. Yeah. He was guarding the border.

Yeah. And we were a bunch of people on a bus. Right. And he was looking for somebody. Yeah. Kind of a Casablanca story. Yeah. And he's got this one thing where he's supposed to fire down some vodka.

Right. A shot. Yeah. And then bite the glass. Break it? Break it. Yeah. With his mouth.

Oh, so as a three-year-old, that's pretty amazing. It was pretty amazing. But what was really amazing is he did it. Yeah. And he saw that I was amazed and he said, come here. And he sat me up on his lap and he said, now this is sugar. This is not glass. Yeah.

Never bite glass. But in his Yul Brynner accent. He wanted to make sure you knew. But man, I loved the whole thing. I was like playing on these tanks, you know, the Russian tanks. I was hanging out. I thought it was a blast. And my dad saw that I kind of could do it. And when he got back to New York, the business had changed that drastically and television had really moved to the West Coast.

And that's also where they were making a lot of Westerns, which he was well-suited for. So we just got in this car. So it shifted from live to tape, kind of? Well, it just, production shifted, yeah, from sort of New York-based live stuff more to, you know, Warner Brothers became the big giant, and Ziv and places like that.

And so we just, you know, we got in this 52 Plymouth and drove. It's just you and your brother? No, my brother wasn't alive yet. Oh, right. My mom and dad and me. Yeah. And we stopped in Duncan and stopped at his, where he grew up on his farm. And I remember some of that.

And then we went. And as a result of that, his agent started putting me out on some things. And I could do, I did some live stuff. And the fact that I could survive live. And then I did some stuff where I became kind of part of Red Skelton's gang. Whenever he would do this Freddy the Freeloader bit. Right. He would have these kids, including Jay North, who was later Dennis the Menace.

Yeah. And we would do these bits. I mean, well, we did this, you know, it weren't really bits. Yeah. Do you remember Red Skelton? Really remember him. Yeah. Because he had a TV show.

I remember when I was a kid. Because you're about 10 years, 9 years older than me. But I remember watching the Red Skelton show when it was on. It was big all the way into the, like, 70 or 71. Right. So this was like 59. Wow. Who's that popular for that long?

Oh, he was huge. He had been huge. Radio, movies, and all of it. In fact, it was a really interesting moment. And I was always fascinated by it, and so was my dad. The process was always interesting to me. Of making the show? Of being around it.

And I remember one time, he's in his Freddy the Freeloader outfit, and he's kind of got a small little dressing room, a portable room there. And I'm hearing this tape go, and then some lines, and then a laugh. And then he's playing it back, and the line, and the laugh. And a bunch of writers, well, I didn't know they were writers, guys are stuck there kind of looking. And he's talking to them very animatedly. And I said, what's going on? And my dad said, oh, that's from his old radio show. And he just wants them to do that bit, just like they did it before, and he's trying

to show them that it got a laugh. Right. So, it was really, the process has always been really interesting to me. Well, it's interesting that he lasted that long in the sense that a lot of those guys that came out of radio could not necessarily generate enough new material to continue moving forward in the in the medium well it was the kind of the first sign of something that i learned growing up and later even directing people like betty davis but i acted with you know john wayne and henry fonda and and people like that and andy i could say the same thing about Andy Griffith is, and I can see it about a couple of my peers now who are enduring, that in my 20s, when I sort of said, well, all of these different personalities that I'm encountering, they're in their 60s, some of them in their 70s,

they're still going strong. And it just occurred to me that the only thing they really had in common was that they, I could witness that they outworked everybody. Right. You know, their process was more meticulous. Yeah. They had, you know, they kind of brought their own quality control with them. They had taste. Yeah. And they really knew, you know, what it was all about.

The business. And the craft. What they did. The craft of making a scene work. And they knew the limitations and the qualities of their own talent and how to sort of exploit it for themselves. And they knew what to expect of other people or demand of other people to raise their game.

Right. But when you were a kid, in taking in all this, I mean, you're growing up on these sets. I mean, where did they shoot Andy Griffith? We shot it over at a place that was then called Desilu Kawanga. And now I think it's like the Red Studios. And that was Desi Arnaz's studio? Yeah, Lucy and Desi owned a bunch of studios. And they did then when you were there. So were they around?

They were on that lot. Yeah. In fact, my teacher, Catherine Barton, also would teach Little Ricky, played by Keith Thibodeau. Your set teacher? Yeah. So they were down the hall, Lucy and Desi? On the other stage. Right. So you would go over there?

I never went over there. Never? I did go over one time and watch Jack Benny rehearsing. Oh, really? When he was on the show? He wasn't on our show. He had his own show. Oh, he shot there too?

That lot was kind of amazing. They had Van Dyke. They had- I talked to him. He's still real together. Yeah, that's cool. Lucy Show, Lucy and Desi, and then the Lucy Show. Us, the Andy Griffith Show.

Then they had- Jack Benny. Jack Benny was there. That Girl, Hogan's Heroes, I Spy. All those shows were all around. And you were a kid watching all, well, I mean, Hogan's Heroes must have been later, right? Hogan's Heroes was a little bit later.

But that Andy Griffith Show was on for eight years. Yeah. So I became like the mayor of the lot. But Jack Benny, watching Jack Benny, I mean, what were you picking up because like i did you ever take any acting classes no but my dad was a hell of a good acting sure yeah but but do you think in in in retrospect having because i i struggle with this now or just sort of understanding it because i did some tv uh did uh for a few years um on ifc that

it seems to me that a lot of acting, there is a certain natural knack for it that has to be there. Yeah. That you can't really teach. Yeah. You can sort of shape the process, the approach to the work.

Right. But yeah, I'm not sure that creativity at that level can really be taught. I that level can, can, can really be taught. I think it can be learned, but the way it's learned is a very individual thing. I think people don't realize how creative they are. And I think there are a lot of people who claim they aren't and have no idea, you know, sort of what they actually have to offer.

Right. And, you know, but I. And they might not know how to facilitate the opportunity to get that out of them. Right. And, you know, but I and they might not know how to facilitate the opportunity to get that out of that. Right. But that's sort of elite level where people are, you know, are just somehow they connect. You know, there's also something just intangible about their personality, their persona. You know, there's something they have no control over whatsoever, except they they do learn how to harness it. And they fit on screen. It's a very odd thing that it's you look at some big actors in person and you can't really understand why the camera likes somebody or doesn't. I get fooled by that as a director. You do? I mean, well, I'll cast people. I'll know they're terrific. I'll be working with them.

I love, you know, I'm an actor's director. That's my very favorite thing to do is to be in the middle of that process with them. favorite thing to do is to be in the middle of that process with them. Try to create the environment where each individual can kind of do what they do their way and still serve the big picture. The story, yeah. But there are times when I'm watching and I think it's fine, it's solid, it's nothing special. And then you go in and you start cutting it together and you say, look at that.

Look at that nuance. Look at that. I didn't even pick that up. Right. From an actor. I'm the guy who's trying to pay attention. Right. But look at what they did.

That's interesting. Look what that glance down means. I didn't even get it. That's amazing. These people are artists. Right. I don't think as an actor I was ever an artist. I think I could do it.

But I think there's something intuitively that I felt I had a ceiling. Well, do you think that had something to do with the jump or the difference between television and film at that time or no? No, not so much because I think I avoided the bad habits pretty well. TV can

infuse people. With what? Just getting stuck in a rut? Well, especially kid actors. Yeah. Because you- Doesn't end well sometimes. It doesn't end a lot. Yeah.

It doesn't end well a lot, which is unfortunate. But there are a lot of reasons. Yeah. And one of them is that in order to get a performance out of a kid- Yeah. It often becomes kind of like a trained animal. Right, right, right. You know, there's a look-

Tricking them into it. There's a look you can do. Yeah, right. You know, there's a look you can do. Yeah, yeah. You know, or that they do. And they start to lean on these cute tricks. Like Shirley Temple syndrome, I guess you could call it. I think so. Yeah, yeah.

And then sometimes, you know, if nobody's there to help them, they're just relying on it and it works and it works and it works. And suddenly they're 14 or 15 and it looks dumb right and and in fact with the when they have the adrenaline going and they're performing they fall back on that on the looks or that trick gimmicks yes they haven't really learned to build a character they haven't really learned and also with the pace of television you sometimes there's nobody there to teach them and they're just trying to get the shots done when you say build a character like character, how does an actor do that? What have you witnessed for yourself? Oh, some really remarkable examples of that.

One of the first, and I keep learning. I mean, it's great. It's one of the best things about my job and career. It's not just that you go to interesting locations and solve creative problems there. Right. It's, it's this,

it's the people that, that, that coalesce around these things. But I like, well, I'll tell you an example. So I'm still pretty young guy. I was doing the movie backdraft.

Yeah. I like that movie. Oh, thank you. With De Niro, right? De Niro. And I'm going to talk about De Niro because I learned a hell of a lot for him

from him that I have used since. So, look, we were just thrilled to have Robert De Niro. He was getting paid a lot a week. Yeah. And in all honesty, he could just phone it in if he wanted to, and we'd be delighted with the part. Right, right. It was kind of a tricky part. He was playing a fire investigator, an arson investigator.

Yeah. A lot of tricky exposition and dialogue and so forth. and he came to rehearsal i love to rehearse always try to insist on that he was cooperative we were going through it very quietly and robert de niro style yeah this line that and then he he said you know i'd like to meet some some arson investigators and he did and we did we set him up with some guys yeah and he suddenly he was kind of hanging around with three different guys and then he said i just had this guy read all my lines i just like his accent yeah hmm and then anyway one thing led to another he then he said oh can we push off my shooting for a week because i'd like to work on it a little more. And he had to go to New York and Mayor Dinkins was there and he was already a real estate

magnate, you know, and we're going, and I thought, oh, okay, that's a good excuse, but he's got to go get an award, give an award, buy a building or something. Okay. But he's Robert De Niro and we're thrilled. Sure. We can rearrange the schedule. Yeah. But he went to New York, he came back and he spent the whole solid week dug in with these guys

with me coming and going and i saw that what he started doing for this money job was he took the posture of one guy he took the cadence of another guy he took the cocky attitude and a couple of like you know wise ass kind of qualities of another guy. And, you know, not the most memorable character in his canon. Sure. But he was reflecting, he was giving back what he had learned. And I realized that he was not a guy who invented. Yeah. He was a guy who reflected.

Right. And that's his process. Yeah. And later on when I began doing movies that were inspired by real events, I was, I really, I began to understand the value of that research. Right. And that, that really thorough, let's, let's see what it is first. Right. Before we start dreaming up, you know, what would be cool. Right. And instead of just somebody doing an interpretation of a character, why not do the research to try to absorb as much of the character as possible so i try not to force that on the actors but i try to create an environment where there are you know there

are opportunities for that and i guess the tricky thing about that is that you don't get an impression but you get something with a little more depth yes yes and and you know as i began doing movies based on real events it was um it surprised. I was already an established director with good credentials, and I had avoided true stories because I thought in some ways they would hamper my creativity. It would be limiting. Because you had to honor something. Have to honor the story. But with Apollo 13, I became very caught up in the minutia. Tom Hanks loved all of that and was a real champion for that. And it was remarkable.

It's a great movie. I watched it again recently. Oh, thank you. Interviewing people who had walked on the moon, hanging around. The whole story turned. The whole approach to the movie turned because I went to Houston and sat in the mission control room with 13 mission controllers. And they talked about the story. And I began to realize, wait a minute, this is not just a survival story for these astronauts. It's a rescue story. And that gave it a lot more dimension and tension. I learned a hell of a lot. But when we started previewing the movie, the test scores were great. And by then,

I even had final cut. But I uh but i still like to preview i like to know you know although comics do it they know what jokes are flying and what's not and put you know playwrights do it they and uh so one of the very first screenings even before we had any of our visual effects finished or anything it tested great i mean it was like wow we've this is really remarkable um and and and and still plenty of to do, but off to such a great start. And there was only one person who marked it poor. So out of 420 cards, of course, that's the one I got to find right away. So I dig through it.

So what year was that? 95. So it's not very much information on the the card just a lot of bold pencil strokes yeah caucasian male yeah 23 yeah hated it no wouldn't recommend it poor blah blah blah finally i couldn't figure out what this guy had against this movie he flipped it i flipped the card over in the back it said please comment on the ending and he said more hollywood bullshit they would never survive and i said ah well of course he hasn't seen the advertising he doesn't know it's a true story right i said this is why you make true stories is in fact you know otherwise i get slammed for being sentimental

or too humanistic or something like that but with this this story, it can be as triumphant as that movie was. And you own it, man. It happened. Yeah. And so in the years since, I've been more willing to make movies based on real events and TV shows and things like that. And that was my subject in school anyway, history. Oh, it was?

Yeah. When you went to- That and journalism. Yeah. I subject in school anyway, history. Oh, it was? Yeah. When you went to- Well, that and journalism. Yeah. I loved being on the school paper. Well, it's funny, the movie, The Paper, my business partner and producer

who's been in journalism his whole life, he said that's what started him. Really? That's what got him interested. You're kidding. It was that movie. Wow. Brendan McDonald said

that turned him into a life of pursuing it. That was a blast. I mean, that was, again, that was right before I did Apollo 13, but I was fresh off the De Niro experience. Yeah. And I decided as a director to really immerse myself, and I hung out at the Daily News and the Post. Yeah. And I got the cast to come and hang around. Yeah.

And I just wanted to, you know, it was fiction, but I wanted to infuse it with as much detail and a sense of of reality well when did the when did that sort of start happening because like i know like being on movie sets like i have to assume that you know like with john wayne who directed the shoot is don siegel all right he also did a big deal did dirty harry yeah um so like you as a young man i mean you know before happy days and you're doing all these tv you're working even did, you worked on what with Bob Denver and like everybody, I imagine. Yeah. Well, that was. Dobie Gillis.

Dobie Gillis. Yeah. And like, you know, it's weird because when I picture those times, I can only picture them in black and white, but you saw them in color. These were real people. They were. They were actually real people with perspiration. Yeah.

Smoking, hiding cigarettes like under the table. That's so funny when you do tv and you realize like where do i put these sides what about this coffee's gonna go here can you see it yeah yeah i i was learning all those tricks although i didn't smoke but right well you managed to avoid all of that it seems that which probably saved you because you were like uh like you're you weren't i guess you were still kind of a teenager when everyone started to get fucked up oh they did i mean when i i see i would move back and forth between studio school when I was doing the show or guest shots on other shows. And then I would go back to public school in Burbank.

Right. And the first year I did it, I didn't like it very much because the kids were pretty tough. How old were you? Oh, that was like second grade, third grade. it was a lot i had to fight with people because you were on tv opie dopey dopey dopey that's right yeah really they oh all that yeah that kind of shit you know and they would get better yeah and in fact i told my parents i don't know if i you know and they said well i don't know about this and she's they said well stick it out and you we we could try private school next year and that might be better right but once you stick it out and we could try private school next year and that might be better right but once

you stick it out and by and by the end of the year i you know i i liked it and wanted to come back and i came back every year although i'd always have to stand up for myself yeah deal with bullies or whatever it's at a certain point but when i went to junior high you know that's a big deal because your elementary school that's kind of become safe and you know everybody right empties out into a bigger school yeah and the first day that i'm i'm here and it was kind of a little traumatic because i was always coming back late and andy griffith show was still on it was the number one show and so everybody knew everybody knew and it was kind of crazy with all the halls and and and you know like this one girl said sign my leg. Mini skirts were in then. So I, you know, I can't sign your leg, you know, but she was a dangerous ninth grader. And, you know, and then stuff happened. Like I was trying to play basketball at the lunch break and my fly went down and everybody was like pointing at my at my crotch laughing and stuff and i was i didn't know whether to zip it up right or just ignore it i tried to play it

cool fortunately i made a couple outside jumpers that helped uh but the fly oh i fly open man i just went for it i just i'm not going to acknowledge you owned it yeah i owned it and then but then then by the like at the end of the day this giant you know when you're in junior high i was tiny i was like you know not even five feet tall this sort of six foot tall guy big giant belly came over with hair hanging down he said hey opie you want to buy a lid i had no idea what he was talking about at that point i figured it out a day or so later yeah i didn't i didn't make that acquisition yeah it's your thing. It wasn't my thing. My dad, pretty clean living guy. Yeah.

But I would say, you know, also kids were getting pretty fucked up. I mean, like reds were a big deal. Yeah. And people were like collapsing in their desks. Well, not so much speed. Well, they would take some speed. But there was more of the downers. Oh, really?

Yeah, these reds. Yeah. And they would take them and like- I wonder what drug that was. Phenobarbital, Quail? Something likeers. Oh, really? Yeah, these reds. Yeah. And they would take them and like- I wonder what drug that was. Phenobarbital? Something like that. Yeah. And they would just like fall on the floor and the cops would come. Yeah.

It was- Scared you. It was a little scary. But more than anything, there was a kind of a, I mean, I'm an introvert for starters. Yeah. But there was kind of an expectation that I was going to party, that I was going to have a lot of money, that when it came to buying a car, I'd get a great car. Right.

And I played against all that because I felt like that's what they... They wanted to see Opie go down. They wanted... Go up and go down. Go up and go down. They wanted me to play into some idea of what they thought a movie star was. Right. They wanted me to play into some idea of what they thought a movie star was. Right.

And my dad's mantra to me, when I was younger and he said, and they'd say, what's it like to be a movie star? What's it like to be a star? Yeah. And I said to my dad, I said, they keep asking me this question. Yeah. And I was probably nine or 10 or something. And he said, well, you're not really a star. You're an actor on a television show, which is a great thing to be.

But people like to simplify it, and so they're going to call you a star. But I don't think that's really the way you need to see it. He said, but here's what you should tell them. You should ask them if they have a paper route or anything. Because most of the guys then in those days had paper routes. Really? Yeah, they'd fold the papers in the morning, put the rubber bands around them, deliver them, come back, get, get their books and go to school. Right. He says, well, why don't you tell them that you have to do the same thing? You got to get up

in the morning, but instead of folding the papers, you have to learn your lines. Yeah. Instead of putting the rubber band around, you got to, you got to go in there and do it. Instead of delivering papers to a door, you have to deliver lines on a set. Yeah. And then you get to go home and play basketball or go to school or whatever it is you're doing. And, you know, I kind of bought that. That worked for me. Yeah, that was good. You have to sit with Andy Griffith and say the same thing over and over again. Yeah, it's not all fun. It's work. It's actual work. I've started to realize that people don't really understand that. The actual time you spend acting on anything it's like it's just this flash you get a lot of waiting around yeah

drifting out of character like trying to remember your lines they're like all right you're up your coverage like oh shit yeah oh shit is right and i'll tell you when i when i finally began directing uh professionally i say finally because i i really wanted to direct my first feature while i was still a teenager yeah that was my goal. Yeah. And it wound up being right the day after my 23rd birthday was when we started shooting, which was, of course, fine.

Yeah. But I loved it. You know, I absolutely loved it. But the interesting thing was I had to be in that movie in order to do it, so it was exhausting. The next movie I didn't have to be in. It was a TV movie I directed.

What was the first movie? It was called Grand Theft Auto. And that was a Corman movie? Roger Corman. When I realized I'm just directing, it's a different energy. You get there, you hit the ground, there's a lot of questions,

you better be prepped, you start dealing with it, and your energy kind of soars, but it holds at that level. Right. And I found it less exhausting than a tough day of acting with the

with the elevator ride all day long up and down because you're in it and the self-doubt yeah you know did i is is they they printed it yeah but was it really any fucking good i don't think so it felt shitty yeah bob every actor goes through it i don't care how many words they've got yeah it's it goes with the territory sure i didn't like that too much i'd much rather just you know say no it went shitty i could see it went shitty because i'm the guy yeah yeah and i know why it went bad yeah uh or i think we got it yeah and and at least the buck stopped with me and that suited me a lot better right well i mean and i imagine when they printed it that like back then you didn't have now you can shoot something a hundred times well yeah yeah it doesn't oh yeah

no especially television was really precious but but movies were that way too. I mean, they didn't do a lot of takes. It's an amazing thing to think that there was a time where people who wrote on typewriters, you can't just cut and paste and move things around. Yeah, yeah. There was a narrative to things that happened in analog time.

So we only had a few takes. Yeah. Because how much film do we have? How much time do we have? Yeah. And I think that changed a lot of things i don't know for the better i guess for the better but it's hard to know i like it yeah i like it having more options i like digital yeah i i like the options i like shooting in that style yeah i like experimenting yeah it frees up more time to experiment sure because i love having a plan yeah i feel like that's my job is to come with the plan that that you know that you know on a good day won't fail us but you shot some movies

on film though a lot i imagine yeah yeah yeah i mean i've only recently gone digital um i was kind of slow to the party why because of what just the cinematographers i was working with oh really yeah it wasn't my own meticulous sense of film. I'm not sure I buy that 24-frame Flickr hypnosis argument that is somehow lost with digital. I don't believe it. When I go to a movie, if the story's working, if it's compelling and well-told, I'm into it. Yeah, yeah. Of course. I can watch it on my phone and I'm engaged.

I hate to admit it, but yes, when it works, it, of course. I can watch it on my phone and I'm engaged. I hate to admit it, but when it works, it works. Yeah. But when did you really start making note? You did Andy Griffith and then Happy Days happened. It was a fluke, right? Well, I was already interested in being... Happy Days was a bit of a fluke. I was interested in directing when I was a kid.

So you were watching directors as a kid? Do you know Ernest E. Bass, character from The Andy Griffith Show? He would throw rocks through the windows and played by a great guy from your show, Howard Morris. And Howard Morris directed some of the episodes. And of course, he was not a goofy guy at all.

He was funny, but very sophisticated. He's a professional entertainer. Yeah. And one time he was lining up a shot. Yeah. And I had to be in a car, and I had to keep going left, left, left. Yeah. And finally, I could get in the frame.

I was now about 10, probably. Yeah. And my ribs were jammed up against the knob, and it really hurt. Right. And I said, this really hurts. He says, good. In film acting, that's when you know you're in the right spot. really hurts he says good in film acting that's that's when you know you're in the right spot but he was actually the first guy who said you know i see you watching yeah you're gonna direct

yeah and i thought that was you know i mean i remember it very vividly and how old were you when you did the john wayne movie 21 so it's right before you started but like well i've been on happy days already right but i mean but in terms of Oh, in terms of directing, yes, yes. Because like how much film had you done up to that point? I know you did a lot of television. Well, the films, the film acting were things like Music Man when I was a kid or American Graffiti. American Graffiti. And that happened before Happy Days, right?

Well, Happy Days pilot actually happened before American Graffiti. That's bizarre. And it didn't sell. It was a spinoff, an episode of, they buried this pilot in an episode of Love American Style. And that was Gary Marshall, right? Gary Marshall. Great, late, great Gary Marshall. I miss him so much already.

But it didn't sell. And it was a much calmer, milder tone. It was more like the movie Summer of 42. It was kind of nostalgic. The Happy Days pilot. Yes, this episode. Yeah. But then, so it didn't sell,

but American Graffiti came out and was a big hit. And everybody was running to do stuff about the 50s and 60s and stuff. And Gary said, well, you know, we have that show. In fact, you got the guy. And I don't do a very good Gary. It's all right. And they made me audition again, the bastards.

But he threw it my way. He gave me like three hours for my audition scene. But Anson Williams and I had to audition again. Party. Yeah, but we got the gig. But the American Graffiti, you were just brought in as an actor? Yeah, yeah. In fact, one of the guys who was an executive producer

and was kind of a consultant on it was Francis Coppola's producing partner, a guy named Fred Roos, who's still around, dynamic guy, really one of those sort of unsung heroes who really helped shape the culture of the 70s. Yeah. But he'd been a casting director on The Andy Griffith Show, among a bunch of other shows. Sure. And he used to put unbelievably cool people like Harry Dean Stanton and Jack Nicholson was on an Andy Griffith Show, among a bunch of other shows. Sure. And he used to put unbelievably cool people, like Harry Dean Stanton and Jack Nicholson was on an Andy Griffith Show. A couple of Andy Griffith Show episodes.

He was in it. He knew who was happening. And when he started working with Coppola, he was the one finding Harrison Ford and Cindy Williams. Really? Rick Dreyfuss. Yeah, yeah. And all these people.

He just knew where the Pacino. He had a sense of it. He just knew. He had great taste and still does. He had Jack Nicholson on the Andy Griffith Show twice. When Jack was doing Corman movies? Yeah. Do you remember him? Barely.

I didn't have much to do in his episode. I don't really remember. I just remember the show and I remember seeing him. Oh, we had a lot. I love the stories of that. He put me in. So he's the stories of that. He put me in. So he's the one, he didn't put me in it. I had to audition like six times, but he put me up for graffiti.

And when you met Lucas, what kind of character was he early on? Unbelievably quiet. But I already knew about him because I had already been accepted to USC film school. And he was already a kind of a god there. For THX. For THX 1138. And so he was 10 years older than me. So he was 28 at the time.

And he'd made one feature. And now he's doing this. And on the cover, it said American Graffiti and Musical. But there was no script yet. It was just kind of this call sheet. And I went and I said, now the thing about it is, um, I'm an, I, I, uh, I know it says musical. Yeah. I know I was in the music, man. But in all honesty, I think they thought it was, it was cute that I couldn't carry a tune. I really can't. Yeah. I certainly can't dance. Right. And he said, oh no, no,

no, it's not, it's, it's a musical, but it's, you don't have to sing. Right. He never really explained it. Well, his mind is he wrote a scene for a song, and that made it a musical in his mind. So he's just a lateral thinker. He's just outside the box. He took six months to cast that movie, but he also took six months to find the cars. Yeah. So when I made that movie with him and got that part, I had to go through everything. Improv auditions, straight auditions. Really? made that movie with him and got that part i'd had i had to go through everything improv um

auditions straight you know auditions really just conversations it was and you never with all the other cast members yeah mixing and matching and so forth like you and richard and you and cindy yeah you know he was concentrating on the pair yeah and uh we auditioned together. But I learned so much. And when I went to San Francisco, he still wasn't talking much. But we're making this movie. And he just would do three takes with two cameras. And then he would say, terrific, and move on. And finally, I went up and I said, I know you're saying terrific.

And I hope you mean it. But I can take direction if you have anything for me. And he said this weird thing. He said, I don't have time to direct right now. He said, I'm going to direct in the editing room. And he didn't really ever know how to talk to actors very much. It wasn't what he did. And he created unbelievable freedom. There were no marks. Yeah. It was everything, every rule that I understood about film acting Right. was shattered.

Right. And I had the, I had a blast. And there were also, I still wasn't smoking pot, but there were people smoking pot, there were hippies,

there were women on the set Yeah. and the crew who had really important jobs. Yeah. I hadn't seen that before. Right. It was this whole

counterculture movement thing happening that was really, you know, really incredible. But you had seen the old style where there was this whole counterculture movement thing happening that was really incredible. But you had seen the old style where there was this sort of weird hierarchy and people wore ties. Yeah, all of that. Right. And I did have Haskell Wexler, who passed away last year, great cinematographer, was helping out with this movie and kind of guiding it.

He did come over to me and he could say, know i know i know the way george is doing this is great and all that but it is nice that you know your way around because you actually hit the light so subconsciously i knew to find that freaking light that's beautiful and that's so but that's a big lesson to learn this so most of that stuff i guess was shot in a wide you know no a lot of coverage but he would do two cameras and just keep moving in with sizes right you do these long dialogue scenes and it was very stylish but it was scripted ultimately yeah it was scripted you had you had the freedom to improvise and like dreyfus improvised a lot paul lamad improvised a lot cindy and i were a little more we rehearsed it and drilled it right and kind of did it you know yeah yeah because we liked what

we liked it and it was all kind of up to us. There was this cool guy named Geno Havens who was Fred Bruce's assistant casting director who was around as a dialogue coach. And his job was just to make sure people knew their lines because they were going so fast. But he was also kind of helpful. He was a pretty good support system. And the movie was a huge hit. When I saw it cut together, I saw just a few scenes like on the day we wrapped right and you know i loved film by this point i mean i was making films yeah and i and i said wow i now i understand what he's doing and it was just it was just revelatory

i had no idea whether people would like it or not did you use like did you integrate those lessons you know into your own style of directing i mean were you able to did it help you provide the space for actors it it uh at later i began to do it at first i was a little too rigid because i was an actor yeah and and i was kind of frustrated thankfully these were short films yeah but i i was a little frustrated that i was getting pros to come be in my short films and the performances weren't very good. You did like two or three of those? Yeah.

Yeah. And I thought, I wonder what was going on. And then I acted for another guy in a TV movie. Yeah. Named Tom Grice. And I loved him. Yeah. And at the end of it, I realized he'd only given me about three or four directions.

Right. And I began to learn to trust actors and be, and try again, get to this place where I realized my job was to keep them out of trouble. Yeah. But create an environment where they could really flourish. And I've extended that. You know, I try to do that for the cinematographers. I try to do it for the production designers. And I love working with everybody and collaborating with everyone and that's that's

the really the the thrill for me i don't give them their head exactly yeah you know that i'm still a keeper of the story right uh and i understand their jobs and their problems and i can see when they're maybe making trying for a shortcut that they shouldn't yeah uh and And I don't really go for that. But I really just enjoy kind of leading the expedition. It's always a bit of an adventure. And you're so engaged with it. It's great. But it's interesting to me that you do Opie for half your life and then you do Richie Cunningham for another, what,

eight or nine years? Yeah, seven and a half years. Yeah. And you're one of those guys that, in my mind, you're always going to be that guy. Yeah, well, and then when I did Saturday Night Live, Eddie Murphy improvised and called me Opie Cunningham, which wasn't ever in it.

But, boy, was he ever. I mean, that was unbelievable to see this 18- or 19-year-old kid. Right. Who, you know, a genius. I mean, undeniable.iable yeah so kind of same thing as when we saw robin williams come on the happy day set and just kind of roll us all away as morgue right which wasn't supposed to be a series it wasn't anything it was just this guest shot yeah and they couldn't even cast this thing yeah you know like jerry paris who was our beloved director

and kind of a comedy genius yeah was almost like he was begging dom deluise to come do it right you know and just really just to save us because it was now wednesday and we had to shoot friday and we still couldn't cast anyone so dom deluise almost stood in the way of rob of mark and mindy yeah he wasn't available oh thank god wasn't available he wouldn't have had it's weird how history works like that when robin came in with his suspenders and the whole thing henry winkler and i were just you know just kind of it was like it was like uh nirvana yeah amazing to just watch to watch it and be in scenes with this guy and he could go anywhere yeah and wink was such a sweet guy he's been here yeah i talked to him yeah he's a great man he's really a good

guy like you know a man of integrity yeah and. Yeah. I grew up with you guys. I guess I don't remember how old I was, but I watched it. It was important to me. I said, hey. And I enjoyed the show. But it's odd to me that had you just decided to continue a career as an actor, it would have been a really tricky thing for you. Well, if I was lucky right now, I'd be the granddad on a sitcom somewhere. Right, right.

Which isn't a bad gig, by the way. No, I know, but you don't look like it. I didn't mean to look down my nose that granddad's on sitcoms. But you would have had to sort of... Well, if I got a hairpiece, maybe I could still play the dad. Yeah, I think so.

But you would have still been fighting that role. Yeah, I don't think I... I think it would have been really problematic, but I sensed all that. it's other this other thing so how'd you get involved with corman i mean when so you're going to direct a movie here's here's the way it went the i i was sending out my father and i'd written a script that i liked and i had raised half the money to make it so your old man was involved yeah is. Not in that movie, but in another one. Yeah.

We were going to make it as an independent movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was the idea. And it was a pretty good script. And I had half the dough from Australia, I thought. And I needed- Investors? Investor from Australia.

Just a guy? Well, this guy named Reg Grundy who ran their version of ABC. Oh, okay. And supposedly he was going to put up the movie. Yeah. And Happy Days was a big hit there. So you used a little bit of your traction. I did.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I left film school to do Happy Days. You never finished film school? No, no, I never went back. But it was still useful. Yeah. So Roger sent me... So, good movie roles weren't really coming my way,

even with American Graffiti and things. I was doing Happy Days. Roger sent this movie called Eat My Dust. Yeah. And I knew all about Roger Corman. Yeah. He was going to be movie king. I knew he had started Peter Bogdanovich.

Everybody. And Francis Coppola and Martin Scorsese. And so, he already had that behind him. And I said, God, eat my dust. This script is terrible. Terrible.

But I remember the movie. It made money, right? It made money. Well, I mean, that was key to the whole thing. So I went in and my agent of, my childhood agent was there.

Really great guy named William Shuler. And he met me. I said, I'm going to meet. I've got my script. Eat my dust. But I have aer. And he met me. I said, I'm going to meet. I've got my script, eat my dust, but I have a plan. And I told Bill, who was a 60-year-old man, I said, you can't come to the meeting with me.

So I'm this 20-year-old. You can't come to the meeting. I'm going to talk to him about some things, and I just don't know that it's going to be helpful if you're there. So I'm basically like, I'm not firing him, but I mean, he was really pissed. Right. And I wouldn't let him come in.

And I knew it was probably what I was going to pitch was going to cost me and him money. Right. So I went in and I said, to be honest, I don't love Eat My Dust. Let me be transparent here. But I've made some short films. Here they are. Yeah. And here's a script my father and I wrote. Right. And I've made some short films. Here they are. Yeah. And here's a script my father and I wrote.

Right. And I think I have half the money. Yeah. I got 150K. If I could get another 150 from you in a distribution deal, I could make that. And I would do that. I would be and eat my dust if you'll do those things. Nice.

So he said, okay, let me read it. And he'll look at your short films. And he called me back in. He said, all right, look, what you've made is a really interesting slice of life. It's kind of an American art film. That's kind of what the script is. We don't do those.

Yeah. But your shorts are good. Yeah. They cut together well. I can understand why that you can direct. I can see that you can direct. So here's what I'll do. I won't promise you another picture.

He spoke in this very erudite, deep, baritone voice. He was from MIT. Yeah. And he said, I won't guarantee you another picture, but I have second units running on most of my movies. And if you act and eat my dust and it's successful, then I'll let you and your father write another script. If I like the script, I'll make it, and you can direct it, providing you star in it.

If none of that works, I'll guarantee you a job directing second unit on one of my car crash movies. Well, I wasn't exactly, you know, I didn't feel I wasn't going to win any Oscars doing the car crashes. That's funny that you went in with this very clear deal. Yeah, yeah. And all of a sudden, the best offer is you're going to be a second director. I'm going to be a second unit director. But I took it. Yeah.

I took the deal. Yeah. Much to my agent's chagrin, and I'm sure, you know, Roger killed us on the money a little bit, but I didn't care. Did it. Eat my dust. I did eat my dust at the same time I was doing happy days and the shootist so i kind of just wedged it in there it's on the weekends i'd go be in this out to you know the

saga speedway or something and be in this this this crazy movie so eat my dust worked yeah and i and he said okay let's let's develop a script i went in and pitched all kinds of art arty arty ideas and a sci-fi thing yeah and he said ron those are very interesting ideas and i really enjoy having an actor tell me the stories yeah he said however when we were testing titles for eat my dust there was a title that came in a very close second grand theft auto if you can fashion a car crash comedy starring yourself of, of course, that we can correctly entitle Grand Theft Auto, I'd probably make that picture. Yeah.

My dad and I had an outline like 24 hours later. We had a script a week later. It was the fastest green light I've gotten in my entire career. And that got me my chance to direct for Roger. And Grand Theft Auto is still in a cultural... Well, because they did the video game that Roger kept trying to sue them for, but it had nothing to do with the movie. Did he ever get any money for that?

No, he never did. He never did. But it's still in the culture. I remember when that movie came out because I was a kid. I learned so much. You did? Yeah, yeah. Because you directed it.

Well, I directed it, and he was a great teacher. How so? Well, first, a lot of mechanical things about just managing your day. He also forced the young directors to diagram, shot list, and really thoroughly prep. So that was all really important. To save money. Yeah. To save money, to be efficient.

Yeah. And he said, you know, I'll be there the first day, and if you stay on schedule, that's the only time you'll see me. Yeah. But if you're struggling, you'll see a hell of a lot of me. Right. He also told me another story. We were doing this car crash. It wasn't a story.

It was an edict. We're doing this finale demolition derby scene at the Saugus Speedway. And it's supposed to be this big riot and this kind of mad, mad world kind of crazy thing. And I'm only allowed 47 extras. And I kept saying, God god i just don't know how to i can i can put them in a pie shape and try to stretch out the frame but i don't know you know and they just kept saying go in and ask roger go in and ask roger you can get more so i went and i said roger 100 would be helpful 75 would would would even work yeah but 47 i don't

know how to make this big i kept arguing, arguing, because the movie was going pretty well. And finally, he put his hand on my shoulder and smiled. He's a tall guy. Yeah. And he said, Ron, let me explain this to you. If you do a good job for me on the rest of this picture, you'll never have to work for me again. But you've only got 47 extras. but you've only got 47 extras. And I never did work for Roger again, but I gave him a cameo in Apollo 13 later, which was a lot of his directors, like Jonathan Demme and others. They did, yeah. Put him in the movie.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's hilarious. And you did learn a lot. That was hands-on. I also learned a lot in post. We shot an added ending. Who else was in that movie with you? Well, my brother Clint was in it.

A comic named Pete Isaacson was in it. Marion Ross played a part. Gary Marshall played a part. It wasn't star-studded, but it was a lot of sympathetic people. Well, that's funny about your brother because he had this parallel child actor career. He did. And he usually shows up in a lot of your movies.

I love working with him. Yeah. I love working with him. And you guys are pals? Oh, yeah. We've stayed close. Oh, good. Yeah.

We've stayed close. You know, he's his own dude and rightfully so. But he shows up in Apollo 13. I think in Frost Nixon he's there and like a lot of movies. Yeah. No, he's good. Yeah. He's a great, he's one of those guys that just, he's had so much experience.

And not only can he be funny, not only is he always prepared, but you can't throw him. Yeah. If you say, lean to your left and thing, and then do the line. Yeah, I mean, he's just, just do it. Just do it and make it happen. I remember Gentle Ben. He's like the greatest utility player. Right.

You know? It's good that you guys are pals still. Yeah. You know, because that doesn't always happen. I know. I know. So, all right. So now you're on your way, and I know we can't obviously go movie to movie, but there are

certain movies that were, you know, defined you. Yeah. You know, after Grand Theft Auto, I guess the big one was with Night Shift, right? Yeah, that was huge because it also brought Brian Grazer and I together. So it was my first studio movie. Right. And, you know, and it was the beginnings of this friendship that became a partnership. Imagine Entertainment.

Yeah. The huge Imagine Entertainment. Well, it's only huge when Mitch Hurwitz puts it in Arrested Development. He makes us look like we're the monolith, you know. Well, that's another thing that I don't think people realize is that you had the kernel. You were the guy who came up with that idea in a way. Well, yes and no. an aesthetic in mind for sitcoms that would borrow a little bit more from what I thought was a kind of a new television grammar based on reality shows, based on what I was seeing

on the internet and so forth. And I thought that you could create a sort of a density of comedy like they do on The Simpsons. If you use that, if you had a narrator, if you did a lot of a density of comedy like they do on the Simpsons yeah if you use that if you had a narrator if you did a lot of flashbacks uh-huh so I had a style right Mitch had the characters right he loved the idea of applying that style to this set of characters who I think kind of sadly might have something to do with his childhood oh yeah he's a great guy I haven't interviewed him but I know he's doing my friend Maria's show. He's a very important comedic dude.

Brilliant guy. And I think that what you brought to it sort of, I think, changed television a little bit, it seems. I mean, it seems that that style. Yeah, I think it was in the ether. The single camera-ish. Yeah, but they were doing a similar thing with the BBC version of The Office. Yeah, and Larry Sanders, I guess, did some of that in a way. Yeah, yes, yes.

So, you know, I think people who are paying attention were beginning to see a possibility. So when you do something like Night Shift, it's your first studio movie, and Brian Grazer is a producer at that time, and that's how you met, and you've got your friend Henry Winkler. Yeah, Henry made that movie happen.

Yeah? Well, because we couldn't cast it right because you know i nobody um you know nobody would really they they you know they were friendly but they wouldn't work with us we tried desperately the the green light combo right was belucci and akroyd uh-huh and we tried desperately and dan was into it yeah he was going to play the henry winkler part right and he thought you know, that John would be great playing the Michael Keaton part. And we all did. And, I mean, like one, we had such adventures trying to chase down Belushi.

Didn't everybody? Well, yes. I mean, one time we heard you got, he's going to, we were in Manhattan casting, Brian and I. He's going to be crosstown. He's only going to be there until 12. Can you get there? It was like, you know, 1135. Yeah, we can get there.

We jumped in the cab. And it was a club or something? No, I don't know. Yeah, some kind of club or something. Yeah, there was a pool table there and stuff. And this is during the day. But so we jumped in the cab and it was traffic. And Brian said to the cab driver, we'll give you a lot of money if you can get us here on time.

Yeah. And he said, how much? And he said, $10. We weren't thinking big. Yeah, right. And so we had to jump out and jump in another cab. And we got there like five minutes till. Yeah.

And he was just casual, drinking beers. And we hung around the whole time. Right. No real shenanigans, just fun, easy conversation. And he said he'd read it. We gave him the script. He never read it. Yeah.

We saw Dan. Oh, you got to get him to read it. That's the next step? You got him the script. Now you got to get him. Now you got him to read it. So now we're moving along, but we still don't have a green light. And so now we're moving along, but we still don't have a green light.

Brian and I have this office over on the Warner's lot. Yeah. And we're told he's doing reshoots for a movie called Neighbors. Yeah. And so he said, Ron, you've got to go over there with another script and try to get to Belushi and give him the script put it in his hands so I went over there I did and I'm walking along I kind of I stepped on some some there's some crunchy glass under my feet and it turns out they were like little coke vials they were everywhere yeah uh and I'm kind of walking around finally I, I find John. He's, you know, and they're doing this reshoot. And I watch and hang out a while. And I go in and Punk Rocker was in there with him in his bus.

And we're hanging around. All cool. Very good. Very friendly. Yeah. Oh, man, I'm so sorry. I forgot to read that. You know, I'll give it a look.

And I gave him the script and I headed back. And I had to hang there like two hours yeah so now i'm on my way back and i think oh brian is kind of a nervous anxious guy yeah um you know i wonder what he's on pins and needles and i this is maybe where i've drifted into as i said earlier once in a while i could be an asshole yeah so i walked in the door and he said how to go yeah and i said i had to hit him. He said, what? He's holding his face. I said, what was I going to do?

I'm trying to hand him the script saying, come on, John. He's got some hot coffee. He fucking throws the hot coffee on me. I duck it. And then he comes to push me. What am I going to do? I popped him. I'm, you know, I mean, I'm not just going to take it.

And then here, this is where I fell in love with Brian Grazer. I know how ambitious he is this is his movie idea yeah he drops to the to the to the couch he's holding his face and you know what he says he says oh i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i put you in that position that's what he says i couldn't take i said brian i gave him the script there's no coffee there's no hit you know i love you man uh and uh that was kind of, I think, in a lot of ways where the partnership was really born. We didn't get Belushi. Well, yeah.

I think he died soon after. He died while we were shooting. Oh, yeah. And in fact, I was directing. Belzer was on the night shift. Yeah. And he was shattered. Yeah.

He was shattered. You know, because he was on the set the day we found out. Horrible. And I said, we tried to get John. He said, I wish he'd said yes because he needed to be working might have saved his life that was i remember i was in college my freshman year of college when that happened it was a sad day but that move but you got keaton and you must have that was a blast he's such an intense interesting guy oh he really is and he's got so much range and uh where'd you see him though did you see him as a comic because

i know he did comedy he did comedy yeah he did come uh i saw him because lowell gans who who was one of the writers along with bob aloo mandel had was lowell was the head writer for a long time on happy days yeah but he had gone over and directed a show that michael uh was doing i think was called working stiffs with jim belushi and at a certain point when, when Henry said yes, that he would make the movie, what that did was that, that, uh, green lit some kind of a, of a, of a TV sale to CBS because he was just such the biggest star in television. And, and I had already left the show. I wasn't on the show anymore, but we were still close. Before the jumping of the shark? Before, it was after the jumping of the shark. and um that was the great contribution i guess

of happy days i can i can i can tell you a jumping the shark story in a minute okay but uh the uh jeez i got a million of them don't i uh around a while cut some of these out uh the uh so i henry liked the script yeah and of, he knew Gans and Mandel. And I said, either part. The studio will make it with you with either part. Yeah. And I will, too. And you could do either part.

And he said, I'd rather play Chuck the straight guy. Yeah. And let's find a funny guy, because I feel like everybody's going to expect me to be the gonzo guy. Right. So, now we had to find this guy. But we had a green light. Yeah. Because of Henry.

Yeah. this guy but we had a green light yeah because of henry yeah and um and then the uh lowell came in and said if we're just casting funny if we just want fucking funny this guy michael keaton is on fire and i just directed him on a working stiffs episode and he's a comic and he's all over the place but i mean he's this guy's great yeah if they'll just go with funny. Yeah. And he auditioned. But I auditioned so many people. Yeah. So many people. A lot of comics? A lot of comics.

Yeah. A lot of comics. Most of them. You know, like Howie Mandel, Jay Leno. And I mean, I think Bill Maher might have come in and auditioned. Sure. And Michael just won it. Yeah.

Then they wanted to fire him. Why? They didn't like he was chewing gum. He was all over the place with the takes. And I kept saying, look, I'm going to edit this thing. Let him go. Let him go. Yeah.

And it was part improv, but a lot of that was scripted. That was a brilliant, brilliant script. Who wrote the script? Gans and Mandel. Yeah. Lowell Gans and Bob Mandel, who also did Splash. Yeah. And Parenthood later. Well, yeah. Well, that was the beginning of Bob Mandel, who also did Splash. Yeah. And Parenthood later.

Well, yeah, well, that was the beginning of the role, right? You do Splash. That was huge. Also a Brian Grazer idea. The idea for the story. Yeah. And Gans and Mandel rewrote it and turned it into something. And it was very difficult to get that movie made because at that time, Warren Beatty was probably the biggest star in the world.

At that time, Warren Beatty was probably the biggest star in the world. And he and Jessica Lange, who was the hottest leading lady, were going to do a mermaid movie for the biggest producer in the business, a guy named Ray Stark, for an Oscar-winning director, Herb Ross. And everyone just said, look, they've beaten you to the punch. in the laps of the people at Disney, whose previous year, their kind of their only live action movie was Gus the Field Gold Kicking Mule. And really, I mean, I was mortified, and they were interested in it. And they said, what about this other movie? And I said, well, look, I'm 27 years old. if you guys want to make the movie and if the money's there herb ross is not going to beat this movie to the market because i won't leave i won't leave this lot until the movie's in the theater yeah you know and i've got the energy

to do it i don't think they do yeah and we've already got a good script i mean i did really believe in the script and uh um they they they accepted that and then they they then they said but it's got to be g and i wanted a topless mermaid i mean i i wanted you know g i mean our comedies are what we're really in and that's what night shift had been yeah and i didn't want to get go that soft you know and brian grazer actually had to go to the board of disney of disney and say look ron will do it he'll protect it her hair will always cover her nipples and so forth but you just can't do that he can't he won't do the debbie reynolds version of a mermaid yeah and can't be wearing a bathing suit top and uh um they they accepted it but then they called it uh

touchstone so we were the first Touchstone movie because it was PG. That's why? Yeah. Did they create Touchstone for that? Yeah. I mean, they said, we may want to make more of these. I mean, the movie was testing very well. They just didn't want the Disney name to be sullied.

To be sullied by the side of a breast. Yeah. That's amazing. And the weird thing, I just realized that it's interesting that you were fortunate in a way to come up as a child actor not in that studio. Yeah. In some sense. Yeah, well, I had done some work for them, but I wasn't one of their guys. Right, you weren't Kurt Russell.

No. Who ultimately became a great actor, no doubt. I directed him in Backdraft. That guy is a blast. I think he's a great actor, underrated. Great actor. We have a lot in common and enjoy each other's company every time we meet. What's the Jumping the shark story before i forget oh the jumping the shark story is that the the year before the fonzie mania had gone absolutely crazy i mean i did the

beatles documentary recently you know and and and it while henry was actually brushing up against that kind of thing for a moment you know it was like that rocking cars and grabbing and tearing right right right right and and um um and handling it incredibly well by the way but the fonzie character character kept getting bigger than life and growing more and more kind of uh superhuman yeah and his ability to uh open doors with knocks and you know and snap his fingers and people would fall down right like that and donnie most very cool guy who played ralph mouth he and i were really good friends and still are and he's a very smart guy yeah um who's having a big renaissance right now because he's singing uh he's playing a lot of clubs yeah and doing bobby darren stuff and he's doing great

with it but anyway um we're sitting here. The year before, we did a season opener about a demolition derby with this group called the Malachi Brothers, which was kind of a mess, but people really liked it. It was very hard to make, and none of us thought it was the show's greatest work. Right.

Well, now we're here. The script's kind of mediocre, and we're supposed to be in hollywood and and fonzie's gonna do this stunt you know yeah i'm driving the boat yeah and and donnie's reading it and he kind of looks down we're eating lunch over here trying to avoid getting sunburned two redheads yeah and he looks at me and he said what do you think of the script and i sort of shrugged and i said you know, people really like the show. It's hard to argue with being number one.

And he said, he looked down, he looked up, he said, he's jumping a shark now? That was the first time I actually saw that thing, that phrase bracketed. But it was before it was even done. You gotta give props to Donnie Most. Oh, good it finally yes at long last donnie most gets the credit he deserves so i get without getting uh you know in hung up on every movie but like i mean you did work with a lot of guys that you know to watch the evolution of tom hanks who was an actor you work with and

you know in talking about about some of the method, that there's some, the craft of acting. What do you, because he's really- Yeah, remarkable. And why is that as an actor? Well, he's incredibly intelligent. Actors, elite actors, really have to be intelligent. They do. Yeah Yeah I think comics

Are the smartest people I've ever been around In my Maybe You know I've interviewed Some astronauts And some physicists

That are pretty bright people Yeah yeah But in terms of what I do And what I understand The social realm And yeah The cultural realm Comics

Comics are fast And brilliant Yeah And they're pretty stunning. Writers can be right behind them, certain screenwriters. But really great screen actors have to be incredibly intelligent, intuitive, and passionate, and obviously creative, and have the great work ethic. All those things really have to be in place to build that kind of career. And Tom has that.

He's got great taste and he can work in any genre, which is probably why we've worked together as much as we have because I, you know, I've moved from genre to genre, you know, in the beginning rather intentionally and now because people just know i that i i have that flexibility yeah but but he's um uh you know he's and he's great to work with so in any jump ball if you have the chance to work with tom hanks or maybe somebody else that is really interesting but far more complicated and uh perhaps uh you know um um, likely to throw up some barriers in terms of trying to get the project done. Right. You know, Hanks gets the nod. Yeah.

And he also doesn't cling to anything. There's not a lot of vanity there. It's all about what's the story, what's my role in it and and um you know how how do we deliver he he doesn't try to steal scenes he doesn't try to hog scenes he tries to so he's he's kind of a great teammate yeah and natural leader so it's a little bit like i always say you know they always said joe dimaggio made it look effortless i never saw joe dimaggio play but i'm a big baseball fan yeah and i think hanks makes it looks effortless but i you know i DiMaggio play, but I'm a big baseball fan. And I think Hanks makes it look effortless, but he works his ass off. Well, it's the interesting thing about actors who are actual movie stars, that they're outside

of Forrest Gump, and I noticed this with people like Clooney, is that it's really a lot of them showing up. There's a variation of emotion, but there's something about the nature of them as actors that is really the core of it. It's not them transforming necessarily. Right, right, right. It's them bringing those qualities that they naturally have. But Tom has kind of earned the right,

so if he needs to do an accent people will accept it sure you know if he changes his look yeah it's okay right whereas with some actors you know you just kind of say oh come on yeah yeah but even when you talk about de niro it's weird because he's a little different but he's a movie star because i don't really feel that we we really know bob necessarily i think dustin hoffman was like that you know i created a lot of different characters yeah and you and you you wanted to see that you know yeah and you kind of know him though you feel like you know yeah yeah yeah but you don't really feel like you know bob no that's true it's all right and yeah you don't really feel like you know that much about meryl streep really

no no when she gets up and makes a speech it's great yeah i kind of feel like she's she's she's doing her job she's doing her job did you see that that silly movie the intern with the nero uh no i didn't. Because it's weird. It was sort of like whatever it was. I happen to be an Anne Hathaway fan. But I thought he did some of the best acting he's done in years in that movie. It was a very controlled, very sweet old man.

But it was thoughtful. I got to see it now. Now I got to see it. I heard good things, actually. But you work with Mel Gibson and Ransom. And he's another movie star but he's a good actor a really good actor and a tremendous director i'm dying to see this uh hacksaw ridge that he made and he's so good yeah uh he's uh he's a he's a character sometimes he gets in his own way doesn't he uh but uh uh but but i uh you know i i i have a lot of time for him i have a lot of respect for him

and i think he's i think he's an incredibly talented guy uh the year that i was directing ransom yeah uh he had directed braveheart and braveheart and apollo 13 were both up for the you know the awards the academy awards that year yeah and i was nominated for the director's guild award and in fact won it. Nominated for Golden Globe, didn't win. He won that one. But when the Oscar nominations came out, it was pretty heartbreaking for me.

And I didn't get nominated. And we got nominated for nine and Braveheart got nominated for 10. And that 10th was his directing nomination. And that day we were doing this tense scene that took place in the in the climax of the of the of the movie between gary sinise yeah who was his kidnapper was trying to get this money yeah you know and control the situation from from from this wild man you know mel gibson and it was this cat and mouse game

and it was this two-person scene richard price the screenwriter was down there we were still rewriting it still working it and this news comes in and you know mel comes over and says man i mean you deserve to win not only be nominated i mean that's you did that's a tremendous movie and this is a travesty and i don't know what to say and i said well i love your movie too and you know and i have no gripe about your nomination. Right. But I didn't know, and I was really just, you know, I was kind of like gut shot. I just felt horrible about it. And the press was coming in, and I remembered, Pat Riley's a little bit of a friend of mine, the coach, and he had said, you know, at all times you have to feed the beast.

The media is the beast, and if you're going to be in the game, win or lose, you've got to feed the beast. So I'm trying to feed the beast, The media is the beast. And if you're going to be in the game, win or lose, you got to feed the beast. So I'm trying to feed the beast, you know, and it's tense. And, and the Gary Sinise, at one point,

it's all very quiet. We're doing this scene where he's supposed to walk in the door and approach Mel. And he says, Hey, Ron, loud enough for the crew to hear. Hey, Ron,

when I come in and I see Mel, I start walking forward. What do you, and then he said, what the hell am I talking to you for? Mel, I start walking forward. What do you? And then he said, what the hell am I talking to you for? Mel, what do you think I should do? It was perfect. Everybody laughed their asses off and it broke the ice and we could do this important scene. That's funny.

Humor is very powerful. And then Russell Crowe with Beautiful Mind and Cinderella Man. So you love that guy. He's a real artist. I mean, he's a powerful guy. He's kind of amazing, right? Kind of amazing. And it was, you know, a couple of times I've really been, you know,

sort of awestruck watching a thing happen. And I can't claim any credit except I was there and rolled the camera and, you know, made it possible in a way. a thing happen yeah and i can't claim any credit except i was there and rolled the camera yeah you know made it possible in a way but uh but uh he especially especially with uh a beautiful mind yeah the the intricacy and the detail there was a tremendous amount of research that went into shaping uh that character that i was you know very very um sort of insistent upon. And but, you know, he's a very creative guy. Mercurial, moody, a lot of other things. But you can't take for a minute his artistry away from him.

Right. Well, that's just one of those things, right? Because I, you know, he more than a lot of actors, when I watched him in Gladiator, you're like, you know, to have that kind of power just standing there. Yeah. You know, it's like know to have that kind of power just standing there yeah you know it's like richard burton or that generation of actors that can hold the screen like that and command

yeah like who the hell knows where that comes from but again highly intelligent a good writer in his own right yeah as is hanks you were asking about hanks yeah you know i mean he's i both of those guys i would say they're they're kind of their own X factor. Without being overpowering or overbearing particularly, they're in it and they're creative and they're making it better because their ideas are really meaningful. Yeah. Often. It's great. And they'll also accept no. Yeah.

I mean, the best actors really want to work that way. Right. And they want the director to not just say yes. Right. You know, and get out of the way. Right. They actually want somebody who they respect enough and, you know, to field and filter. Yeah, yeah. And respond.

It's funny because on my show, Maren on IFC, I used Chet Hanks. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Basically playing, you know, Chet Hanks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he was great. Yeah, he is great. He's a good kid.

Yeah, yeah. And Colin is, of course, a terrific actor. Yeah, yeah. But he was great. Yeah, he is great. He's a good kid. Yeah, yeah. And Colin is, of course, a terrific actor. Yeah, yeah. I saw him in that Elvis and Nixon movie. Huh? Well, you did that amazing Frost-Nixon movie. And yeah, that was sort of a, that was an interesting time. I didn't really know about it.

Well, I did. I remembered it. And Vietnam was important. Yeah. And by the way,ixon i i had a really low draft number yeah and part part of the reason i i did happy days yeah was because i didn't know how to stay out of the draft right i thought if i was on a television series that the network and the and the corporation would figure out a way to get me a deferment or or get they might

be in the air national guard or something you know, so I wouldn't be in the jungle. And so when he actually did end the draft, he, you know, I liked him for that. That was Dickie with my man. Personal reasons. But when I later found out that while we were staging a lot of those really funny, because Peter Morgan's a brilliant writer,

and funny and intricate scenes of David Frost in the Beverly Hilton Hotel working with his team, and I understood what date he was there, I realized that the first time I was nominated for a Golden Globe, and that Golden Globe show was taking place down there, he was upstairs working with his team. Wow. For what? For Happy Days? I was nominated for the Shootist. Oh, you were? As a supporting actor. Oh, yeah. And then I think the next year I got nominated for Happy Days. And Michael Sheen was good to work with? Great. Oh, my God. They both were. And Rangel is great, right? He's great. Although he only wanted to be called the president when he was in makeup and in character. That was his,

that was his request. Yeah. I had a hard time buckling to that one. So I used to sort of say, so the president's going to enter, sir, would you come over here? I couldn't quite bring myself. I don't know. It just bugged me a little bit. Out of respect for the office? No, no. I just thought it was a little ludicrous and a little pretentious. But it really worked for him. Delivered a good performance? Oh, man, did he? Yeah.

And I was wrong, by the way. If I was doing it again, if I had a chance to work with Frank again. Yeah. By the way, Juan, I felt like I never really got to know him until we were doing press. Because he was so in character. Yeah. That, and he's a jovial, funny, fantastic guy. Right.

And, and, uh, and I didn't get much of that. You just got Nixon. I always got Nixon because we were all, we were on a really tight schedule. And the only time I ever saw him, he was already in makeup and already the man. Yeah. So like in talking about like presidents in America and, you know, getting back to John Wayne and what Hollywood was like and what he represented. Complicated guy. Real powerhouse. As an actor or as a human? Well, it was a much better actor than I realized. So when I started the, you know, when I started the movie, I thought he was this great screen personality. Right.

But, you know, not Gary Cooper to me or right or you know or henry fond or jimmy stewart and um um and it was interesting because we got along really well because everyone first he liked the fact that i was coming out of television because he said when he began doing the one reelers that was the equivalent of tv and he liked the professionalism of that and so so and i said do you want to run lines? We had a lot of difficult two person scenes and I liked that and everybody else was a little scared of him, but we were running lines all the time. And that led to playing chess. He loved to play chess all the time and I can play, but he was good. He was good. And he played like you'd expect him to. It was just an onslaught, man. Just an attack. If I was a little more sophisticated,

I'm sure you could take him right down, but he beat that beat the hell out of me and i wasn't letting him win and and you thought he's a better actor than he gets yeah well we were rehearsing these scenes and it was very interesting because the scene was kind of awkward and i felt you know it wasn't really you know working and in my opinion i was already thinking a little bit like a director and um and all of a sudden he said let me me do that one again. And he would stop, change the timing, and maybe even put in that little John Wayne hesitation, that little hitch where he doesn't quite finish the line until he's seen the guy at the door.

And suddenly it popped. And I said, man, this guy is 74 years old and he's working it. He cares. And he worked really hard on that. And the scenes mattered. And he was meticulous about it. And again, it's another one of those lessons.

But he was tough. He and Don Siegel really, really battled. Really? Over, and yeah, he did not, they didn't get along. Over what? Like what is a battle for a director when it comes to, as to like i mean you as a director and as an actor don was trying to shoot it you know he did in he did escape from alcatraz yeah he was uh he was far more cinematic he was kind of uh you know of the 70s yeah and he was trying to shoot it that way and uh wayne did not like the low camera angles

that he thought made him look jowly he didn't like old studio player studio player stuff and he was really enforcing it and i remember siegel saying man because i you know he already i knew i wanted to be a director i had this tremendous advantage of through all this drama really kind of being friends with both guys and hearing kind of hearing about it you know and he said let me just tell you i mean you know two to three weeks in if there's a battle between the director and the star it's the director has to go so i have a choice either ride this out um you know really you know or not and i really like this script yeah and i think it can be a good movie right so this tough tough guy um and you know he said but he said caustic things i mean he was like baiting wayne in the paper you know saying he said, but he said caustic things. I mean, he was like baiting Wayne in the paper, you know, saying, they say Wayne eats directors for lunch.

Well, if he eats me, he's going to get indigestion and things like that, which was just kind of stupid. And baiting an old man. Was that his last movie? It was his last movie. Yeah. And he wasn't really well. He had the stomach cancer? Yeah.

Well, he didn't at that point. He was, but he didn't at that point. But he got pneumonia at some point. He only had one lung. But it was interesting. And I got to talk to him a lot about John Ford, who was one of the directors that I idolized. He worked with him a lot. Yeah. Stage coach.

Yeah, stage coach. He'd worked as a prop guy for John Ford and an extra. You loved John Ford. Loved John Ford and an extra. You love John Ford. Love John Ford, love Frank Capra. But then I discovered Billy Wilder and Howard Hawks. And those guys had so much range. And when I began realizing I was going to have a career as a director, I'd been doing TV series where you're sort of always doing the same thing.

And I read an article where Billy Wilder said, you know, if I'd been like Hitchcock, it just stuck with one genre, I would have made a lot more money. But I just couldn't. Well, I, you know, I related to that. And I really wanted to explore the medium. And more importantly, I suppose, really gain the trust of the collaborators. Because, you know, fans will come and go. Audiences will come and go.

Critics shift. Who knows? But if you if you have the respect of peers and colleagues, then you then that's that's where the quality work is really is really born out of those collaborations. And so it was important to me to have the trust of not only studios but also you know writers producers and and certainly actors and how does the relationship in that sense with you and brian work because i mean you're pretty tied together both in production and creation and and execution and you direct uh most of it all of it right he doesn't direct well he doesn't direct but but we make a lot of shows like empire and 24 24. Felicity. Felicity was ours. Yeah. You know, and lots and lots of movies, like 8 Mile and American Gangster that Brian Bruce is. I love American Gangster.

Isn't that a good movie? It is a good movie. Yeah. I don't know that it got the credit it deserved. Maybe not quite that year, you know, but these movies take on a life. They do. It's one of the good things today. You know how I know I love a movie?

Is if it just comes on in the middle and I'm just sitting at home watching, which I still do. I'll just flip around. I'm like, I'm going to watch the rest of it. That's the coolest. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Look, that is... There's chaos in the industry now. Movies and television. It's exciting for TV because there's just so much output.

But if you're a studio or a network or a production company and you're trying to figure out what a show or a movie should cost, it's a mind bender. Yeah. You know, and how many movies should you make and where should they play? All of that's driving them crazy.

If you're a creative person, it's the greatest time ever. Yeah. Because if you have a story that you care about, you know, you can find the platform. Yeah, you can get it somewhere. You can find a place to make it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, you can find the platform. Yeah, you can get it somewhere. You can find a place to make it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I'm so thrilled by that.

Yeah. And I think it came along at a pretty good time in my life because it's, you know, it's exciting to be able to stick with the, you know, the main objective, which is feature films, but be able to do a Beatles documentary or be able to participate in this. We have an interesting project that's half scripted and half documentary about going to Mars. And I've really been involved in that.

It's been a lot of fun. And those kinds of experiments, I just directed the first hour of a 10-part scripted event series called Genius. And the first genius we're focusing on is Albert Einstein. Sure. And that was really, that's the first TV I've directed in a long time, and it was just such a great script.

And he probably learned a lot. Yeah, it was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although I'll never get E equals MC squared. It's beyond me. It's just beyond me. I don't know how, I don't understand. I mean, I'd like to think I could if I applied myself, but I doubt it i i don't i've been i've been applying myself it ain't happening but i i uh i

did better with formula one on rush i learned i learned how that sport works oh good i finally found the racing line and now we you know you've got the third uh part of the uh the da vinci code yes yes the dan brown, Robert Langdon mysteries. Yeah. You know, like for me, like I don't know where you are because, you know, we're dealing – what I was getting at with John Wayne, you know, a famous conservative. And, you know, and you've been in Hollywood a long time. And, you know, like even, you know, we're diplomatic around Mel Gibson's politics.

You know, he has this or that. But I mean, you are a political guy. Yeah. And it's sort of interesting to me that I'm very prone to, I'm not prone to conspiracy theories, but when I watch Inferno or I watch a Da Vinci Code, I'm like, this shit can be real. That's the beauty of it.

That's the beauty of it. Well, the interesting thing about what Dan does is he actually creates these sort of fun vehicles, first as books and escapist entertainment. And then my job is to try to find the cinematic equivalency of that. But he also, you know, you have to take it seriously enough to actually sort of take the bait on the conspiracy theory or at least weigh it at some point. Well, the Catholic Church is just like when you get to go to Italy and you get to shoot in those like this is thousands of years of hopes, man. Yeah. And like, you know, just layers and layers of who the fuck knows what.

Yeah. And I'm a Jew. But like, I'm sort of like, I don't know, man, about Satan. And I'm in. It's fascinating but i mean but do you ever do you ever have moments where i don't know where you are spiritually or you're obviously a pretty well grounded guy but you're shooting that stuff were there ever moments no no i not for me but i but i i think it's uh look i what i what i thought what i think that

dan does is he presents the conspiracy theory and makes just kind of a good enough case for it and then bakes it into the fun clue path and stuff that everybody likes to see Hanks do and Tom loves to do. He likes it. Tom loves playing Robert Langdon. He does. He loves it. Yeah. You know, and he just finds it fascinating because, why? Because it's history.

It's ideas. Yeah. It's all buried in and around this entertainment. But Dan does all of that, and at the end of the day, it's not really about believing the conspiracy or not believing the conspiracy, but it is about thinking about it. And so he's more provocateur than he is, but it isn't with humor. There isn't with irony. It's very earnest. And so some people, I think, say, well, he's taking himself very, very seriously. And in fact, he is only taking himself seriously so that people have to actually contemplate the notion, I think. Yeah, and the backdrop is just histories of a very cryptic and bizarre religious cult. Yeah. And I, now that I do, I do believe that, that, you know, that we have no idea what, who's

been motivated by what. And, and, and, you know, even this one focuses more on a contemporary issue, which is, you know, overpopulation and a terrorist trying to kill a lot of people to try to solve the problem. And also some sort of final confrontation. Yes, yes, yes. And, you know, with a virus and so forth that would really be devastating. But the clue path is hidden in Dante.

So the idea is very modern and not religious or historical, but the clue path is buried in Dante and Inferno, hell, and the Botticelli painting and so forth which and dante was kind of was no longer not only really um defining hell for western civilization he was also inventing the contemporary horror genre because those punishments are like every cool thing that you've seen in uh you know in a in a in a toro yeah or something and uh but but he also was taking revenge yeah that it's all more than half of the of the characters that he writes about are are people that he that he thinks wronged him or wronged his family and wronged his country in Dante's Inferno so he's fueled Inferno. So he's fueled by this rage, you know, and this desire to express something that's very,

very personal to him. Did he think he was redefining it for all time? You know, maybe. I think he might have been a kind of an arrogant guy. Yeah. But, but. He was fueled by rage. He might have been a little grandiose.

And revenge. But it was fueled by this very personal thing. That's, that's interesting to me. That's very interesting. But it was fueled by this very personal thing. That's interesting to me. That's very interesting. Now, like speaking, like you are politically active. Right.

And we are dealing with a spiraling, many spinning plates of conspiracy. You know, like there's a danger to conspiracy theories. Yes. Because you can sort of decide what history you want to put into place. Yes, absolutely. And how you want it to fit together. And if people are uneducated or angry enough, they'll eat it all. Yeah, that's right.

It's so true and so dangerous. Yeah. And look, I've been overseas a lot. People look at us and, by the way, I know the Trump supporters don't care about this, but they look at us and they just, what the hell is going on? You know? And, and it's, you know, it is, it is shocking. I just hope, I really hope that in the rage and the anger that is fueling these folks, and you got to take it seriously because I got a lot of family members who are Trump people, you know what I mean? I understand. It's not all knuckle draggers like Bill Maher says. Of course. Then they have grievances.

They have real grievances. And we have to make sure that in trying to find some salve, something that will soothe them of their grievances, that they don't wind up giving a very narcissistic, bullying figure this opportunity to become a despot. Because that's what he'll do. Or shift it to authoritarianism. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting to me because there's like, you know, I've seen you've said publicly about, you know, this sort of toughness and kind of, you know, stick-to-it-ness of the American spirit,

you know, and you see that in Apollo 13 and, you know, it's something that you're conscious of, that the weird thing is, is that, you know, Trump is some, you know, negative representation of that that the weird thing is is that you know trump is some you know negative representation of that yes yes hey uniquely american huckster absolutely and i mean although if you're in italy they'll say burlesconi sure you know it's a it's a standard political character i can't remember his name but if you're in if you're in hungary they'll talk about the guy that who's moving everything to the far far right right uh and uh um and and cozying up to putin by the way um it's uh you know it's you know it's i i i really just pray that that people go vote yeah whatever they think just participate so we have a huge huge out turning out turning out yeah and um you know, and I certainly hope that, look, even if they have to lie to their loved ones.

Sure. I know. Get in the booth and make a sensible vote. That's why it's private. Yeah. That's why it's private. Say whatever you want to say. You can keep a secret.

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, lie. I don't mind. Yeah, exactly. And the one other thing that, like I noticed i noticed that you know in our conversation that you seem to have a conscious understanding of of you know which movies are are made to make money obviously you want them all to make money yeah but there's a difference between an entertainment right and a movie that has some some teeth to well they're all they're all entertainments in

my mind but different stories entertain in different ways right and i began to sort of understand that you know a couple decades ago and ago and began and partly with the power of Apollo 13, that true story. Yeah. You know, and I saw the way audiences responded to it. I think audiences are a lot smarter than we, in fact, give them credit for. Yeah. And I think you sort of make a promise with an audience about a story. And then it's how can you deliver on that promise, whether it's I'm going to laugh my ass off or it's going to be whimsical and fantastical and I can take my kids.

Or it's this is thought provoking and this really happened. Some version of this really happened. I'm going to learn about this. And those are all reasons to feel entertained when it's all over and feel satisfied. And as a storyteller, your job is to sort of understand the difference. And it's fun. It's fun to play in the various tones and styles and then also in The Grinch and watching, you know, him, a kind of special kind of genius, create this physical comedy out of absolute nothing. And it would be like, take 22 and you'd be exhausted and he'd just have one more. And suddenly he's adding some body contortion or some head snap. The timing's just a little different. And that's it, man. Yeah. So you go all in no matter what, just a little different and that's it that's it

man yeah so you go all in no matter what that you know that's one of the great things about how you know you've you've designed your particular careers you can be any genre it's just if how you engage with the story it's the themes yeah it's it's and and and if you identify and for me i need to be able to relate to it and connect with it in some level. Either I'm curious about it, I'm intrigued, I like the world. Something about it has to really, you know, it's going to hold my attention for a year and a half. I better be involved. But, you know, maybe 15 years ago, maybe, my kids were adolescents.

There was a lot of fireworks in the house. We're sitting around with my wife cheryl we're watching there's kind of this argument going on in the family and just the tv's on it's just on yeah i don't even remember which like late 80s or early 90s abc banal sitcom was on yeah and but damned if they weren't dealing with the very thing we were arguing about. Right. With their bright colors and their punchlines and that sitcom delivery and all of it. And we all stopped and folded our arms and sat down and watched this dumbass, broad, silly episode.

And it meant the world to us. When that episode was over, we had laughed. It's, you know, good is good. Right. And it had meant something. And that was just a reminder to me that in every one of these tones, every genre, there's a good and a bad version of it. Right. And you never know when your viewer is going to need that thing that way.

Right. You know? And so respect it. Yeah. Whether it's a kid's Saturday morning cartoon or a broad sitcom, understand it and tell the story. Right. Because the stories are what kind of heal us, fuel us, keep us going.

Yeah. In addition to entertaining. But we got to be entertaining or else it's kind of hard to get our attention. Sure. Sure. So that's the game. That's the trade-off or the negotiation you have to make. The line you ride.

Yeah. Right. I mean, I feel that way when I sit down to watch. Sure. Well, I think that's beautifully put. And it's great talking to you. Likewise. Thanks.

I enjoyed it very much. That was an amazing conversation. I love guys and women who have just been working and doing things and have a history within them of entertainment. It's daunting and awesome. Go to WTFpod.com and check out the tour. Got dates coming up. Carnegie Hall is about sold out. Got Chicago, Nashville, a lot of stuff.

WTFpod.com. Also get on the mailing list. I churn out a very personal email blast every week. Not prepared any guitar here, but I feel like it's something I do. Thank you. Boomer lives! you can get anything you need with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get an ice rink on uber eats but iced tea and ice cream yes we can deliver that uber eats get almost almost anything order now product availability may vary by region see app for details it's a night for the whole family be a part of kids night when the toronto rock take on the colorado mammoth at a

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