WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 758 - Shep Gordon

Episode Date: November 9, 2016

Talent manager Shep Gordon had no real interest in pop music. He was a young hippie making money dealing drugs to rock stars. Shep tells Marc how he transitioned into a life of management and production with an eclectic group of clients including Alice Cooper, Ann Murray, Teddy Pendergrass, Raquel Welch, and a bunch of celebrity chefs. Also, Marc reflects on the 2016 Presidential Election. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast, WTF. I know what's happening. I know what's happening. I'm recording this on Wednesday morning. So if anything happens between now

and when this posts later tonight in the middle of the night, this is Wednesday morning. middle of the night this is wednesday morning we're going to post an interview today with uh shep gordon that was recorded before the election but uh but it's what we do it's a good interview it's a great interview a lot of wisdom a lot of talk about alice cooper and groucho Marx and other stuff. But I know that seems irrelevant. I mean, everything seems irrelevant now. That is the feeling that I got last night. We were on set late checking in with election results. And it was devastating.

There's no other way to look at it. For people that believe in progress and change and cultural evolution, it's devastating for those reasons, whoever you decided to vote for. devastating for those reasons whoever you decided to vote for and the feeling last night there was a there's a selfish panic that you know what does this mean how scared do i have to be and then you start thinking like how scared do we have to be and you know what if what how you know what is this what does this mean and and innately, my first reaction, which is surprising, but not really for me, is to become despondent and depressed and grief stricken and self pitying and just defeated. The bottom line is there's a fucking gaping wound in this country, and I don't know how it gets fixed. I know that I got to keep talking.

This isn't fundamentally a political show, but I believe that he was the wrong guy, and I believe a lot of people got suckered, and I believe that we witnessed one of the longest a lot of people got suckered and i believe that we witnessed one of the the longest and most insanely compelling long cons ever executed and i who are the marks well i guess on some level more than half of this country maybe the world and this isn't the first time that someone has completely hoodwinked an entire nation. There's plenty of racism, plenty of misogyny, plenty of sexism, plenty of anti-Semitism,

plenty of the worst parts of any country. There's plenty of that, but there was just plenty of people whose reaction towards the slow progress of social, racial, and economic change, their reaction was Trump. So that means the predominant feeling is,

fuck you, fuck change, let's bring it back. Let's bring back something I understand, something narrow, something not only conservative, but something that feeds and justifies an entitlement that is shifting.

Don't change anything. As a matter of fact, get rid of the change and progress we made because it doesn't jive with me. So this is where we're at. And you can sit there and go, well, he's not my president. Many of them did it through Obama. So this is where we're at. And you can sit there and go, well, he's not my president. Many of them did it through Obama. But the truth is that the way it works is that he is.

He's everyone's president. The president reflects the country. If you've got a problem with him, you've got a problem with the country. So what do we do? Do I sit in the despondent, grief-stricken futility of someone who gives up? No, man. No. This is a shitty time and place.

He will be a shitty president because he's a shitty person. So what does that mean as an American? as somebody who believes in change and wants to you know try to fight well you you keep fighting you keep talking you keep tight with your communities and we we try to fucking heal this gaping wound maybe i'm being too optimistic what am i gonna yell at people fuck i lived through eight years at w i fought that fight lost look what i do here is I talk to people about struggle, about art, about creativity, about personal problems, personal awareness,

about social struggle. But I mean, I don't know what else to do. So maybe it's time to realize that tweeting is not social action. Tweeting is not activism. I mean, I got gotta change my life too you know on some levels you get a little spoiled

when you're insulated and you get a little disconnected from what other people are going through maybe even your neighbors maybe even you know people that we don't know anymore. Or that we thought we knew and we didn't. But continuing to talk about these things.

It's important. I mean it's. It's the answer. Really. And that's what I'm going to keep doing. And that's what people should be doing all the time. In their lives. I mean fucking. Talk to to people talk to people in depth

feel out where their pain is at feel out where you have common ground feel out you know why why we can all live together but you know under the surface was all this fucking hatred and anger and just garbage emotions that built up. But the weird thing is, is when you get one-on-one or in a group of people, in a circle full of people, things are different. Seeing someone face-to-face, feeling their life in your face and in your heart in that moment, feeling that. That makes a fucking difference. Now we're all fucking detached. We're all floating in our little narcissism pods that we communicate from.

How do you think so much of this hate took place? The fucking phones. Now I don't want to sound like an old man but these are the extensions of our brains this idea that if you're smart enough if you're together enough you can adapt to technology and use it appropriately it's not true

it's an illusion of social connection that's innately cowardly and innately limited in terms of human connection. It's got nothing to do with it. Man, it's like we work together. We work with these people.

These people. Who are these people? You decide who they are. We work with these people, these people, who are these people? You decide who they are. We're all people. We've got to fucking talk to each other. You can't just tweet at him. You can't just like what they posted. I don't know.

It might be the only way out of this. I mean, don't you ever have this fantasy that, that all that shit just breaks? I mean, what is it really? That's what I do in here. I talk to people and all of my assumptions about anybody.

Granted, I'm not talking about politics. Usually, I'm not talking about social change necessarily. about anybody that's ever sat in front of me was wrong because it was limited by whatever input I decided to focus on to define them. And when they sit down as living, breathing, fragile people, everything opens up because that's what humans do. And we've lost a lot of that. And this may sound trite, but what else do we got but each other?

I mean, fuck. I've worked with Republicans. I've had them open for me. I know people and I've worked with people and I am friends with people that think differently than me. Drastically. That's one of the beautiful things about comedians and about this world that we live in for the most part. Is that you can have those different views.

Now, who knows if there's even a context anymore that will harness this shit. I don't know. But all we got is each other. I know that. I know. Sounds trite. True. True.

Fuck. All right. So, for those of you who voted for him, I hope he delivers what you want to deliver i hope you're happy with yourselves and uh because we're all gonna have to go through it together and those of us who didn't that believe in a different type of country that fight continues and i'll keep talking here and i'll keep talking to people

and i'll try to keep you entertained i don't want to be selfish here but i'm you know it just feels like things change i don't know what the tone of things is going to be as we enter the new year or how everything's going to pan out i'll stay engaged and I'll keep talking. But it is a sad and devastating blow for those of us who believed that at the very least, social and economic change could happen and continue to happen. And it's a scary time.

But I'll hang out all right let's talk about show business and wisdom uh shep gordon he's got a new book out it's called they call me superman backstage pass to the amazing worlds of film food and rock and roll he's got a new book out. It's called They Call Me Superman, a backstage pass to the amazing worlds of film, food, and rock and roll. He's a good guy. I wasn't sad and despondent and feeling futility and hopelessness

when I talked to him. Maybe that'll perk you up. All right, this is me and Shep Gordon. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. All right, this is, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map

as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at Calgary calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. You've been in a recording studio before. Once or twice. You know how that works. You've yelled at some producers, no? No, don't yell. Never yell. You know how that works. You've yelled at some producers. No? No. Don't yell.

Never yell. Yeah. I saw the movie. I saw Supermention. I enjoyed it. I thought to myself, he must have yelled once. Oh, yeah. There have been moments I've yelled. I usually yell for theater. It's not real yelling. It's theater yelling. Oh, right.

Right, right. So it's for effect. Yeah. There are times, particularly doing what I do, you don't have time. To yell? To do stuff. You're in real time. Right. So I remember there was a great moment, just one incident of when I had to really get forceful

against my personality. We played Moscow for the first time. With? Alice Cooper. Yeah. And there was a brand new basketball stadium. Yeah. And there was a brand new basketball stadium. Yeah. And there was no seating behind the stage.

So I told them I had to provide rope or some barricade. Yeah. And when I got back for showtime, only an hour to go, there was no rope or barricade. Right. And I really couldn't allow him to go on. I knew, and it was real time. Yeah. People were in the hall.

Yeah. I didn't have time to be a nice guy and explain right was there and there was a language there was a language barrier they explained to me was they couldn't afford rope yeah really yeah this was what it was still communist so it's like in the what late 70s yes it's late 70s I couldn't afford rope really which I thought was just fantastic but I couldn't did you throw out a few bucks no no rope so I? No, no. So I got really intense. I said, I'm moving them out. The only way you're going to stop us from moving out. And I raised my voice. I said, we're leaving. Get the US

ambassador here. We are leaving. And automatically like 3,000 soldiers showed up who were cheaper than rope and they formed the human barricade and we went on. Soldiers are cheaper than rope. They're all over. We just go down the street, we'll get some. Well, you know, so Alice Cooper was your first client as a manager. Still a client. Is he the only one that's still with you?

Correct, yeah. But that's not because of you. You got out of the game, right? Yeah. For so you you're you're a jewish guy obviously yeah luckily yeah and uh so what do you come from i mean i like i like the whole journey from uh from uh you know new york to hollywood but you were at hollywood definitely a good time i think i was a typical kid of the 60s yeah what. What town are we talking? I was from Oceanside, Long Island. Right. I worked at a beach club like Flamingo Kid. Yeah. Dated the daughter of the guy who was the great card player in Flamingo Kid. Oh, really? Yeah. But his name

was Al Feldstein, who owned- Was it really based on that guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if it was based on him, but it was based on- That club? That moment in those clubs. Right. Every club had their guy. Oh, really? Yeah. They all had a guy with the pinky ring. Sure. Who had the most beautiful blonde wife. Right.

Who wanted poker every night. Not gangsters. Not gangsters at all. Jewish gamblers. Yeah. Mostly in the Shmata business. Right. So they're living on the island.

They're working in the city. And that was the big move. That was a big move. The post-immigrant step up. Yep. And for the kids, we were the first generation that had some type of economic freedom. It wasn't big. Most of the parents were middle class, but it was still something. They wanted to give you a better life than they had.

They wanted us. So we all went to college, most of us on some kind of a region scholarship. Were your parents born here? My parents were born here, first generation. But you had grandparents with accents. Yes, we didn't read or write. Oh, really? We didn't read Matzo Volsu.

Really? You had that all? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You grew up with the real... Fanny Frank, my grandmother. Oh, yeah? Made the greatest latkes and blintzes. So you live in the house?

Always you had to get the chicken from the bottom when you went to the store. Oh, right. Exactly. Keys to life. Yeah. The wisdom. The keys to life. Get the chicken from the bottom, Chef. Exactly. Keys to life. The wisdom. The keys to life. Get the chicken from the bottom, chef.

Right, because... They put the old stuff on top of the suckers. Right, right. They move it. They rotate. I do that. I do that. I do all the time.

Reach in the back or if it's a bag of greens, always go in the back. I'll be at the stove cooking for 30 people and start laughing hysterically because I realize I'm channeling my grandmother. Of course. Which is completely insane. Well, yeah. But that's what. But that's what beautifully thing about life is.

About feeding people. Yeah, feeding people. Yeah. So that tradition really came through. So what did your dad do? My dad was a bookkeeper who never took his CPAs and never became an accountant. Uh-huh. Wonderful man.

Yeah. And he worked for what? He worked for a handkerchief company. A handkerchief company. Most of the Jews worked somehow in the schmatter, or when you moved out to the West Coast, it was an entertainment business. Right.

When you're on the East Coast, it was somehow somewhere with the schmatter business because you always had a relative. Yeah, who could get you in. Who could get you in. Yeah, you can roll the carts around. I rolled the carts, learned a great lesson. I learned two great lessons rolling the carts.

One I learned is you better be really careful if you're going to be good at what you do because you're going to make everybody else look bad. And you're never going to get out of that job. Yeah. So you better like the job. And the second thing I learned, which was the technicality only for that business, was that you always had to push your carts so you could look at a window because people would walk on the other side of the cart that was blind with a razor blade,

cut it, and take the dresses out. Oh, really? They'll hit you like that? So you could tell who the new guys were if they weren't always next to a window. Right. And coming back with missing dresses and not making the delivery you always had a you you couldn't the the place that everybody shipped from was called gilbert trucking that's where those racks usually were going to yeah was

gilbert trucking to go out to the country 10th avenue yeah knock and uh if you came back in the 15 minutes it took for the run that was not good because all the guys who had been there 30 years, it took them an hour and a half. Right. What are you doing, kid? So I got talked to right the first day I got my talking to. Have some breakfast. Get something to eat.

You're making us look bad. Hey, kid. Pissed off union guys before the union, I guess. Was there a union then? No, I don't think there was a union for that. So New York at that time, that was the New York of great grandeur. It was still in it, right? It was great grandeur, and it was political unrest.

It was the time of the war. Oh, so the early 60s? Early 60s, we were taking psychedelics. It freed our minds. Already? Already? In the mid-60s is when psychedelics. Yeah. Already? Already? Yeah. In the mid 60s. Right.

Is when psychedelics. Like 66? Yeah. And what hit at the same time was this whole anti-Vietnam movement. Right. Where people took action. Yeah. And action had effect.

You burn, we burned our cars in the middle of the street. You did? Yeah, I did. You burned down Rotsi buildings. But it was, this was across the country. It wasn't a nice. No, I know. I know.

But like, like for you, you were, you were politically active you were i wasn't politically active i was politically destructive uh-huh so so you were it was more of uh what everyone was doing correct gave you a vent and there was anger sure and i but you had personal anger yes about primarily based on the fear of going yeah i had I had fear of going. Napalming just seemed to me Horrifying. unbelievable how you could do that, how you could wake up in the morning and napalm people you never met.

Yeah. It was unbelievable. Right. That they made people do it was horrible. Right. And it just, it was a time when

I think all college kids thought it was really for people to make money. Yeah. The armament dealers, it just turned ugly. So the information was getting out. Right. The 50s were over, this is the real deal. And we affected it a little bit. Yeah. With the armament dealers. It just turned ugly. So the information was getting out. Right. You know, the 50s were over.

This is the real deal. Yeah. And we affected it a little bit. Yeah. So I think we all got a little bit empowered. Yeah. That, you know, maybe we could actually do something. Right.

And who's president? LBJ? Well, it was right when Kennedy got shot. So 63. Yeah. And that was the beginning of when the anti-war movement started for you? Yeah. And that must have been devastating.

You remember, how old are you? I'm 71, just turned 71. Okay, so I'm 53. I was born in 63. I didn't realize this was a baby show. I know. It's a baby show. Yeah.

I need to learn. Come on, Grandpa. You better shed some of that wisdom on me, because I'm in trouble. But you remember the day John Kennedy was shot with clarity. Yeah, with clarity. I remember being in a place called Allenhurst. I was a freshman at college. We all got together in the street, a big circle, held each other, cried.

Oh, my God. It was really the end of sort of innocence. Yeah, for the whole country. Yeah, for the whole country. Maybe for the world. Right? Right? That someone could be just taken out like that in daylight.

And then you think of where it's come to today. What we accept as normal today. Oh, yeah, now we're just numb and distracted. And I think everyone's in some sort of mild PTSD. Yeah, I think it needs, I mean, one of the things I've tried doing this book thing and having an opportunity to actually talk to someone other than my familiar family is to say that there's nothing wrong with taking action. Right.

Sure. However you can. However you can. If somebody really needs to do something, you can't just. Right. It's a democracy. Let's use it. You can't just lie and watch this thing go by because you're going to lose.

You know, I told, the last thing in my book says that just where we dropped out of the womb, you win or lose the game. Oh, yeah. Which is pretty true. I mean, think about it. 90% of the country you drop out of the world. Yeah. You drop out of the womb, you're not going to be you or me.

Right. Not going to be sitting here with this microphone. Right. If you drop out in Somalia. Right. So just that, and do we want to give that up? Oh, my God. Like, wow.

Exactly. Yeah, there's a luck of the draw, the cosmic draw. The luck of the draw. And don't give it up, man. You are the luckiest people on the planet. I think that there is a lack of gratitude. And I'm probably guilty of it as well. But I'm doing all right for myself.

So that tempers some things. But I do think that people lose sight of just what an amazing country this is. Oh, my God. Just watch the news for five minutes. It's like, yeah. Just watch or go travel somewhere. Yeah. You know, and see what's going on.

The fact that, I mean, that I could be here having an interview with you, having written a book, that you could be here interviewing me. Yeah. How many places in the world with this? And we can say what we want to say. Completely. Which is unbelievable. Right.

So even if you had the opportunity and enough money to buy headsets and there was a radio station that would broadcast. Yeah, we're not hiding doing it. The possibility. Sure. No, I agree. I think that's a good way to frame gratitude. So you're a Jewish kid.

You're angry. You're burning draft cards. You're running around tripping. When was the first time you took acid? I actually didn't take acid until my second year in college. The San Francisco Mime Troupe came through Buffalo. And they had the acid? They decorated

my Christmas tree with sugar cubes. Come on. I swear. With sugar cubes. I said, what is that? And Peter,

who's the famous actor now who was one of the San Francisco Mime Troupe, he said it's a- Coyote? Peter Coyote. Thank you. It's LSD.

What's LSD? He told us. We should you. It's LSD. Watch LSD. He told us. We should have heard about it. Yeah. That was it. That was the good shit. So he brought it from Owsley. That's like in the mid-60s.

That was like the first few batches. Yeah. And then I became, maybe would you say, his representative for Buffalo? Coyotes or Owsley? Somebody's. I don't know who. Somebody. But you were getting it in?

Yeah, yeah. And you were making the cubes? You were getting the liquid? No, no. I was getting it all. But I never, by the time I got it, it turned to paper. So blotter, yeah. So blotter was what I, and it was much easier to handle.

And what was your experience? You know, because, you know, at that time, I think that the acid experience was not hackneyed. It was original. Those were the original acid experiences. So people who do acid in the last 30 or 40 years are basing what should happen on you. So when you took it, the idea was mind expansion, that there would be truth given, and you must have been a little nervous. What? What happened?

Did it change your perception? I think it had to have. I can't tell you exactly that it did. I know peyote really, peyote I took before acid. Really? That was around? I was in Mexico, and I took the actual cactus. What were you doing in Mexico?

I went down there for, I wanted to be a gigolo. I was a failure, but I did. How old were you? I was 18. I decided I was going to be a gigolo. I was a failure. How old were you? I was 18. I decided I was going to be a gigolo. In Mexico. An American gigolo, an 18-year-old Jewish kid from Long Island. I completely struck out. I completely struck out. How did you even start that? But I did get really lucky. Yeah. Because I had been there once before,

and I had met this guy, Rubio, who was a beach boy. And his life was so romantic. He slept on the beach. Women took him to Carlos and Charlie's to eat. In those days in Acapulco, it was mostly school teachers. Wait, so did you go there on vacation with your family? No, I went there in school because I was in the pharmaceutical business. So I procured my stuff there.

Weed? Yeah, I gave it to my teachers so I didn't have to take tests. You gave weed to your teachers so you didn't have to take tests, and you went to Mexico from Long Island on the money that you- From Buffalo. From Buffalo with the money you made for selling weed to get more weed. So you were running pot to Buffalo from Mexico, bribing your teachers, so you're ready for show business.

I'm ready for show business. Here I come. So the gigolo thing. So you're ready for show business. I'm ready for show business. Here I come. So the gigolo thing. So you just, you met Rubio. But really funny because there was a girl that, I had enough money to get along. Yeah. I had maybe seven, $800.

But I met, I used to take this peyote, which was horrible tasting. You'd cut it up and take, put it back in your tongue and put it in on a raft with water in front of the Hilton Hotel. That was sort of my spot. Okay, so you'd drop peyote and go sit on the raft. And this really pretty girl ended up there one day. Her name was Susan.

She was a schoolteacher from Brooklyn. We got friendly. We never had a romance. And she ended up buying me every day a Big Boy hamburger. They had a Big Boy hamburger stand. In Mexico? Remember that stupid? Sure.

Vip's Big Boy. Or Bob's Big Boy. Bob's Big Boy. That's right. And years later, Glenn Buxton, the original guitar player in Alice's band, shows up with his new girlfriend at the Fillmore. And it's Susan. That's the one, the Brooklyn school teacher who bought you hamburgers? I went out and bought her like a thousand hamburgers that I had money. How is that possible? But in those days, you couldn't stay in touch with people. There were no cell phones. There was no emails. Right. You had a hard line and a snail mail.

So I was completely... And she just showed up. Just showed up. It's one of those weird coincidences. Just completely weird. So did you finish college? Finished college. With what degree?

Got a Bachelor of Arts. Went to the New School for Social Research for a few months. To study in what? Didn't know what sociology, didn't know what I was going to do really. My cousin owned a place called Divine Garments that sold dresses for funerals and suits for funerals. In the city? Yeah. They had no backs.

Really? So I worked there for a few months and every client was crying. Every client was crying. There wasn't one happy client because they were buying for the people. So they'd be referred by the funeral parlor or the funeral home to go to the place and pick a dress. And they didn't have to make an emergency run once in a while if the dress or the suit didn't fit. Oh, my God. Backdoor at the funeral parlor.

That didn't last long. But a recruiter came in to the new school looking for candidates for the parole system of California when Reagan was the governor. And they come to schools to pitch people to apply because they need workers. What was the gig? It was to be a probation officer. The new school? Yeah.

Oh, sociology. Okay, okay. As a sociologist, you can only be a probation officer or a social worker. Right. That was it. That was the job path. So was it. That was the job. So the states went around to the schools. No kidding.

Yeah. Pitching to, you know. Where are you bright guys who have a big heart? Yeah. And I said, you know, this is my moment. I always want to go to California. I'm going to be a probation officer. I'm going to go on a big white horse, save these kids.

I had long hair. Reagan was a tyrant. Yeah. I come out of the 60s where I thought I could really affect stuff. Yeah. Like I could really go out there. Yeah. And do something. And do something. Yeah. Really cool. And went out. Outside selling acid

and weed. Yeah. Was still selling because I knew it but anyway. So I get there and it was horrible. I got beat up the first day at the jail. Place called Los Pedrinos Juvenile Hall because it was all Reagan cops. Yeah. And I was a long hair with hair down to my head. Who beat you up? The cops? No, the kids. They put me in a softball game.

They had me take the kids out for softball. All the other guards left. So these were not adults? All Latino kids. Yeah. Not one kid spoke English. And did you speak Spanish? Spoke Spanish, but they were very kind to me. They could have really, you know, when I look back at it, they could have really hurt me

yeah and they didn't they just want to teach you a lesson no they wanted to do what the guards I think made them do which is get me out of there oh yeah

yeah so I mean never discussed but when I came back in I looked at the guards and I said you guys want me out of here yeah why'd they want you out

I had hair done on my ass and oh so it was just during the Reagan era in California so you were a hippie yeah they were so embarrassed by me. Just like, so embarrassed. I was the guy they wanted.

Right. And you were just sort of basing your ideology on the hippies and the guys doing Jerry Rubin and Tom Hayden, Abbie Hoffman. Do some good stuff. Right. Live in the light and really try and fight this thing. Okay. So then you get your ass kicked at a juvenile prison.

Decide I'm going to go to LA. Leave the juvenile hall. Okay. I drive down the freeway. I get off at Highland Boulevard. I get off at Highland. There's a motel on Highland Boulevard. The 101.

Yeah. You got to drive down the 101. Yeah. Pass the Hollywood Bowl. Mm-hmm. Go into the first motel. Too expensive. Mm-hmm. I'm in the right lane. I can't go straight where the 101. Yeah. Pass the Hollywood Bowl. Mm-hmm. Go into the first motel, too expensive. Mm-hmm.

I'm in the right lane. I can't go straight where the track was going. I have to go the right onto Highland. Right. So I take the right onto Highland. I see another vacancy sign. Go in. That I could afford.

It was $24, $25 a night. Yeah. That was the Hollywood landmark. Right. So I check in now. It's probably 1230. Yeah. I've been beat up.

I don't have a job. Right. I've been beat up. I don't have a job. Right. I've just come from a jail. And you got acid. I got acid. I go to my deck. It's Hotel California. Yeah.

It's two stories around the swimming pool. Sure. Everybody's got a balcony. I go to the balcony. I drop some acid. I hear a girl screaming. I've just come from a jail. I'm like this Jew on a white horse saving the world.

Right. Oh my God, there's a girl getting raped put on my cape yeah run down to the pool yeah separate the two yeah

the girl punches me they're making love she happens to be Janis Joplin come on in the morning I find that she's Janis Joplin

and she's sitting with all these rock icons what is she like 20 21 I would say 21 22 23 would be my guess And she's sitting with all these rock icons. Was she like 20? 21? I would say 21, 22, 23 would be my guess. Looked a little older. Had years on her.

Old soul. Yeah, old soul. Very old soul. So is she sitting at the pool with? She's sitting with the Chambers Brothers. Really? And Jimi Hendrix. And a guy named Paul Rothschild who produced The Doors. Great producer.

Bobby Newworth who was Bob Dylan's road manager and a folk singer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're all just hanging out? Yeah. So this was the place? This was sort of the place, yeah. Because it's 68, so Hendrix has already made his break, right? Yeah, oh, yeah.

No, this was sort of the place. Two years, couple years in, they're all. Sort of the place. She introduces me. To Jimmy? To the gang. Oh, yeah. Because this is the guy I told you about last night.

That I hit. me. To Jimmy? To the gang. Oh, yeah. Because this is the guy I told you about last night. That I hit. A, I get embarrassed, but I also think, oh my god, I've just hit, as a pharmacist, the greatest customer base in the entire world. Ka-ching!

As a pharmacist. And, you know, would any of you happen to like it? Yeah. So maybe two or three weeks into living there and starting to make some money and do well and get friendly with everyone they all became customers right but are you tripping with jimmy no who'd you chambers brothers yes oh you tripped to the chambers brothers yeah i don't i mean it may have been in the place with him but yeah well you're getting high with janice i've

never i never sold her and you don't know if she took it or not oh okay may have she was a boozer yeah her her road manager john lived there with her and he was very protective of her because she was already spiraling i bet and and but like well that's the other question i mean you know there's a like the story is a good story but like you know there's the dark side of it did you feel that at all or you just you were just white light guy yeah not at all i don't think any of us i mean one of the things i talk about in the book is none of us had any thought of consequences for anything but was there dope around when people shooting dope i don't know if anyone was shooting oh you didn't see it not around you yeah but um no one had consequences right sure being drunk was funny

right and fun yeah sex there was no h Yeah. So it was free sex everywhere. Sure, but everyone's getting a clap every other week. But then Maddie had pills. Yeah, right. You know, A200 and the crabs and ketchup. It's an old school idea. The guys who got laid in the 60s and 70s are like, yeah, well, you just go to the- You had your road kit.

Everybody had a road kit. With antibiotics and- Yeah. Antibiotics and A200, I think it was called. The crab? The crab, yeah. Prepared. Yeah. So one day after a couple of weeks,

one of them said, Jimmy Hendrix, or Chambers' brother, said to me and my partner, Joey. Your drug, your pharmacist partner? Yeah, who had come from Buffalo with me. But that's all you're doing? Really, yeah, that's all we're doing. And said, what do you guys do for a living other than that? And we said nothing. And they said, you Jewish?

And we said, yeah, you should be a manager. Makes sense to us. Right. And we had a friend in management who managed at a group called the Left Bank. Walk away, Rene. Yeah. Had been our fraternity brother in college. And when he got out

of college he got hired at this company yeah that had so we had a front we said yeah we even have a friend he'd probably give us cards yeah and he made up a little cards for us really and um they alice was living in lester chambers basement alice cooper yeah and uh lester came to Alice and said, we found a Jew to manage it. And off we went. But this was like, you know, in terms of like. This was 69. So you're going in but not really knowing anything about the music business, not knowing anything about show business.

And it's sort of a pivotal time in music and movies and everything's shifting. The business is shifting, so there's a window. There's no real business. Right, because the whole model had broken apart because the old guys didn't know how to sell anymore. You know, I look back at like an Alice Post when we headlined at 72 Madison Square Garden. Yeah. $2.50 ticket was the biggest ticket.

Yeah, but that was the numbers then, wasn't it? That's what I mean. It wasn't a business. There were no business people in it. There were record companies. In the touring business. I get it. I get it. I get it.

But the managers weren't really. So the business was primarily, you know, make a big bill so we can sell records. That's it. It was all about selling records. Right. Yeah. Okay. So you meet Alice.

And is he with Frank Zappa at that time recording? No. The next week he starts with Frank Zappa. After you signed him. Did you sign him? Never. We never signed. We still haven't signed. We agreed to work together. You have no company. You just have a partner. And

now the drugs, the dealing, does that secede? Eventually ends because people started getting arrested. Right. So we stopped and we sit down with Alice, my partner and I, and say, listen, we got to get serious now. But he was a boozer, right? He wasn't a drug guy. Never did drugs. Old school. Yeah. Old school boozer. So? He wasn't a drug guy. Never did drugs. Old school. Yeah, old school boozer. So at that time when you meet Alice and you're getting into management, because it seems to me that, because I've never interviewed a manager. I've had many.

I've had three. I understand what they do. I understand personal management. But the notion of getting into it as a business and then what your job is, I think you sort of set some standards. You sort of invented something in terms of rock management because Alice Cooper was not an easy sell at the beginning, right? So what did you do? You had this guy. What compelled you to stay with Alice Cooper who was kind of off the grid

in terms of what he wanted to do and how he wanted to do it. Off the grid was great for me because it was a front. Yeah. So I... A drug to protect you for your drug sales, right? And I decided not to do it. We had to get serious. And, you know, Alice is a realist.

I'm a realist. The show was not great. It tended to drive people away. What was he doing initially when you saw him? What was the show? They were doing, you know, a minute and a half song would have 300 changes in it. So, it'd be, Today, today, mola, mola, mola, mola.

Today, today, today, today, today. That's one of the songs on the album. So he had had one album out when you met him? No, nothing. No albums. So you're listening to it at practice space? No, I go to Venice to Bruce Smith, Lenny Bruce Smith. He opens for the doors and empties the room.

Lenny? Yeah. Oh, really? Lenny was dead. Lenny Bruce Smith used to run at Venice Beach. Oh, okay. At a place called the Kaleidos. Lenny? Yeah. Oh, really? Lenny was dead. Lenny Bruce used to run at Venice Beach at a place called the Kaleidoscope every year. Yeah. Jim Morrison was headlining it that year.

Yeah. Alice went on as an opening act at that show. And walked the room? Everybody walked out. Before the doors? Yeah. They didn't even wait for the door? Everybody walked out.

The only ones left in the room were me and Frank Zapper and my partner and three or four other people. Did you like Frank? I never really got to know him. He signed him that day. Yeah. And you were the manager.

You were there. So you were there. Yeah. But that didn't turn out. He thought he was signing him to manage him. Oh, yeah. And record. He didn't know that I was going to manage him.

Oh, really? Alice told him the next day, oh, by the way, we got a manager between when we talked to you three days ago. Yeah. And that relationship wasn't great, right? Alice told him the next day, oh, by the way, we got a manager between when we talked to you three days ago. Yeah, and that relationship wasn't great, right? No. The record, Who Had the Rights got, it was horrible. It's one of those horrible stories in life that you just, it's like, why?

What happened? I can't tell you 100% what happened. Yeah. Because I don't think we'll ever really know. But the facts that we know are that Alice's hero was Frank Zappa. Yeah. Hence the many changes in the songs. Exactly.

Yeah. And Frank Zappa told Alice he had made a label deal on Warner Brothers Records. Yeah. And he could sign them to two albums. And he signed Alice, Wildman Fisher. Yeah. You could be the only person in the world

to know Wildman Fisher. Yeah, he had that record. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. Mary go, Mary go, Mary go around. Boop, boop, boop. Had a picture of his mother stabbing her to death on the cover.

Yeah. I loved Wild Men, but he lived in an insane asylum and wasn't a musician. Did he actually live in an insane... The GTOs, who were the girls together outrageously who weren't musicians or singers or writers.

They were groupies who were fantastic. Dressed like pirates. Miss Cinderella, Miss Christina, Miss... they were groupies who were fantastic. Yeah. Dressed like pirates. Uh-huh. Yeah. Miss Cinderella, Miss Christina, Miss... What did they do? They had a stage show? They dressed like they gave Iggy his look.

They gave Bowie the look. They took Alice to a thrift store where we bought by the pound ice capade all outfits. Those are the dresses, metallic dresses Alice always wore. They're ice capade outfits? Yeah. So they knew Iggy and they knew Bowie. these so they were known to like go to go shopping with them yeah make do your makeup um cook for you they were the greatest great really so when the

stooges were out here in the in the late 60s early 70s ask any of the guys ask any of the pop stars of that era about the gtos and you get a a smile. Oh, yeah? Yeah. They were really, really cool. So they got signed to the label. And it was weird because none of them, including Alice, really had any audience at all. Yeah. Had anything that anybody liked. We couldn't quite figure it out. So anyway, we show up for the first album.

We had never done an album, Alice or I. Out at Whitney Studios in Burbank, going to record for Frank Zapper, Alice's hero. Yeah. And Frank's brother is there. Out at Whitney Studios in Burbank, going to record for Frank Zapper, Alice's hero. Yeah. And Frank's brother is there. Frank comes in and he says, this is my brother. I'll come back at five and pick up the record.

Okay. So we don't know. Really? They leave. No producer. And the group's rehearsing. They think they're rehearsing. No one ever says stop or start. And Frank comes back at five o'clock and says, great man, album's

done. Really? And that was the first album. Huh. If you listen to it, you will understand it. It's really just a... It's a rehearsal of guys who didn't have songs. Oh, now I gotta go back and listen to it. Yeah, pretty for you. Really? It's wild.

And you were like, what the fuck? No, because we didn't know enough. We just thought it was really weird. You didn't know nothing about music. We thought it was really weird that he didn't spend five minutes in the studio, that he never wanted to hear the songs, that there weren't songs. So now Alice is a little disillusioned, I would imagine. Yeah, not really. So we try and make it, and we're trying to go.

And I end up going to Toronto to get him on the John Lennon Festival, and I run into David Briggs who managed Neil Young, who produced Neil Young. And I tell him how he did the album. He said, that's not how you do albums. I said, really? He said, no, no, actually you write songs, you listen to the songs.

Shit, would you do that for Alice? And he said, yeah, of course. Yeah. So I didn't even tell them our company went in with David Briggs. That was the second album. Yeah. And they wouldn't use his tapes. They took the rehearsal tapes from David Briggs, made that easy action. Really? And none of us could figure out what's

going on. Who? Frank did. Yeah. None of us could figure out what's going on. First album sold maybe 300 copies. Yeah. Second album maybe sold 150 copies. Now I realize that I got to do this without the record company. You got to take it into your own hands. Yeah, I got to. So I sit down with Alice and who makes the best records? Yeah. Guess who?

The group. Oh, really? American Woman. The Guess Who from Canada. For us, those were the best radio records you could get. And you have to remember, Alice is a group that doesn't even think about writing music. It's theatrical. It's Salvador Dali.

There's no such thing as a three and a half minute song. Right. So we sit down. He's an artist. Yeah. Well, we sit down and say, okay, let's forget who you are. How do we get a number one record?

What are the best number one records? And I don't, please, I manage Burton, so if Burton, if you're listening, don't take this the wrong way. Yeah. Who's an insignificant artist? Who's not the Beatles? Who gets number one records all the time?

Yeah. Beatles, we get. Yeah, sure, sure. Guess who? Who are they? Nobody knows who they are. But you weren't managing them yet. No, no.

Right. But every record goes to number one. Right. There's got to be some genius involved with this group because they're nobody. It was American Woman and it was not, it was before Bach before five or six yeah yeah yeah like five six gigantic yeah yeah and i look on the back of record it says jack richardson yeah nimbus nine toronto i get on a plane go to toronto right yeah with my partner we sit in the office take some acid and say we want to meet jack richardson jack doesn't want to know, he's heard, he's found out we're in the waiting room.

We said Alice Cooper. He's called the Warner Brothers. The last thing he wants to do. Trouble, yeah. But this new kid comes in, Bob Ezrin, first day of work. And Jack says, go get those kids in the office out of here. That's your first job. Yeah.

And we got, we hooked Bob into it into it oh yeah you talked him into it so we went we did our first record with bob the first track was 18 really that's the third alice cooper record that's the first record we do with bob is right and i'm up in canada doing this john lennon thing and i start hearing about canadian content that there's a Canadian content rule. That Canadian radio stations have to play a certain amount of records and TV stations have to use Canadian product. Shit. We qualify.

So I find out who the program director is on the biggest station in Canada. It's CKLW. Yeah. I'm sort of controlling John Lennon at this point. You are? Yeah, because I'm doing a festival with him called the Toronto Pop Festival. But was that the only relationship you had with him?

It's the first one that the Plastic Ono band ever did. Okay. And so I say, listen, I think I'd probably get you exclusives on the concert, but you got to play this record for me. They play 18, it's a hit. Smash. Phones light up. I called Herbie to tell him, isn't this fantastic? We got a hit record. He said,

get it off the air or I'll sue you immediately. That's that guy at Warner? That's the guy who owns Frank Zappa's label. Right. So I go to Warner's. Yeah. Guy named Clyde Bikimo. I said, Clyde, CKLW, we're the number one record. He said, you're kidding. That's the biggest station in the world for breakout records. I said, yeah. We don't have any records pressed. I called Herbie.

He said he doesn't want us to put the record out. He said, you're kidding me. Who did? I said, Jack Richardson. We've been trying to work with Jack Richardson for three years at Waters. You know how much money we've offered him? I said, I got it. He stole money

from somebody else's recording budget. I think it was the Doobie Brothers to let us finish. The record goes to number one. Frank Zapper sues Warner Brothers for putting the record out. No shit. Yeah. And to stop and to cease the record. I don't

want to get too complicated, but what we discovered is that it's basically the producers. Warner Brothers gave Zapper and his manager millions of dollars. Yeah. To sign three artists, two albums each. Yeah. The only way that Frank, like our first album cost $6,000. Right.

The only way Frank would ever have to give us any of those millions of dollars is if we sold a lot of records. Right. Because then we get royalties. Right. If we don't sell any records, he keeps all the money. It's the producers on Broadway. So it was a cash grab. Got it.

And all of a sudden, so we went to court. The label changed like 12 times on that record. And we ended up in court for five years straight because we got a number one record. That's amazing. So he signed these guys that were just freaks. And he's like, fuck it. These guys are going nowhere. And I'm going to walk with a few million bucks.

Fucking show business. Show biz. But you earned, for you, you know, that was a pivotal turning point as a negotiator and as somebody who instinctively knew how to, you know, do a deal, you know, on the fly. For you to say, look, I can set you up with the Lennon Festival, you know, for an exclusive if you play this. And they're like, yeah. And people love that, right? Yeah.

And the same with Ezrin, right? Yeah. How'd you charm that guy? You know, I don't know. It sort of happened, I think, on its own. I got him a ticket to New York. Yeah. We max's kansas city with alice with alice and um it sort of was just a magic night and he sort of got it oh okay so it wasn't like that afternoon in the office no no no you know it was he was it's his first day on the job so he's a new guy and you're saying

like we got the next thing this is the next biggest thing yeah all right so now you got alice you got a hit record so you're you're you're you're moving yeah and what happens next next i decide i want to see if i had anything to do with it if any of oh if it was your skill yeah did you actually have a skill set i actually have any skill set other than taking acid yeah so i signed the i was up in can in Canada doing this John Lennon thing. What was your relationship with John? Not at all. It was a fellow who owned the biggest department store in England,

Eaton's Department Store, got the rights to do this concert with John Lennon. I have no idea why. But he had never done anything. And I had a friend who had a friend who thought i was knew what i was doing because i told him i was a manager in hollywood yeah and and what was you so you were a promoter or what yeah so they brought me in as the talent coordinator and was it how what was john like at that point i didn't really get to meet

oh really a little bit i i set him up with a fellow rabbi Feinberg, and they did the bed-in in Montreal. Oh, that was, you set him up with that guy? With that guy. What did Feinberg have to do with the bed-in? Feinberg was- Was he a hippie rabbi? Rabbi was a hippie rabbi who ended up doing an album on Vanguard Records. I was looking to promote his album. Come on.

I swear. What was that? Was it Klezmer music? What the fuck was it? It was pop music by a rabbi oh boy everybody's got a dream everybody's so he's the one that uh that helped uh put together the bed in yep as a protest as a protest and there's that famous picture all right so that's interesting so all right so now you got to see if you have a skill set so you sign who and murray

you're really trying to challenge yourself i'm challenging myself but you loved her i love the voice thought her voice was beautiful where'd you hear that you were in canada she was a canadian star yeah she i um i remember her what was her head no she wasn't a canadian star at that time she was a um gym teacher in nova scotia and um she sang this gene mccle song. Where'd you hear it? Snowbird. Yeah. It was on a summer replacement show that this fellow David Briggs

who was producing Neil Young had worked on. In Canada. Yeah, and it became a big hit in Canada and looked like it was about to be a hit in America. Uh-huh. It was just starting to go and he said, this is another great client,

you should get this. And I said, let me see what I can do. Yeah. to go and he said you should another great client you should you know get this and um i sort of i said you know let me see what i can do yeah but she was like kind of not conservative but not you know a powerhouse of uh she was the opposite of alice she was a pure instrument uh-huh with no frills and thrills from a folk tradition yeah just from a vocalist uh-huh because i remember her from when i was a kid. What was her big hits? Snowbird.

That was it? Yeah. And Put Your Hand in the Hand. Oh, right. And then she had a Kenny Loggins song. It was very big. So this was 1970, 71? Yeah, this was 71.

So you bring her down here? I bring her down to LA. We do a big show in New York and LA, Central Park. But who are you booking her with? Those days record companies were very powerful. It's a very different thing. The economics are gigantic. So a fellow named Sir John Reed, who was the chairman of EMI,

loved Annie. So he brought people from all over the world in to see her, and I put two shows together. Who was on the shows? Just her? Springsteen and her in New York. It was Springsteen's first show. Was he just playing guitar, or did he have the band? Just her? Springsteen and her in New York. It was Springsteen's first show. Was he just playing guitar or did he have the band?

He had a band. Yetnikoff called me, asked me if I'd put him on the show. He did, I think, 15 minutes to open. How was it? It was weird because it started drizzling and it was outdoors. So I had to try and get him off. But did you see the magic there? You didn't?

No. You know, music's never been my thing. Right. Just not, so I, magic is, I don't let that interfere with my music business. Uh-huh. You were just in it. That sounds weird, I know, but. But like, you know.

After Alice. Yeah. And Ann Murray, I took a couple of icons on. I took Groucho and Raquel, Groucho Marx and Raquel Welch. As a personal man. Yeah, just because it was, how can you not? They asked me to. They asked you to?

How does Groucho find you guys? Groucho got friendly with Alice. What? Yeah, they got really friendly. Where? New York? In LA. They'd watch TV together and stuff.

They just got really, Groucho, all the old guys, Jack Benny, Carson, they all loved Alice because they saw him as vaudeville. Oh, they did? Yeah. So they got it? They got it completely.

Like when we took George Benny, George Burns to see Alice get hung on stage. Yeah. When Alice came off, George said to him,

oh yeah, I saw Charlie do that in Chicago in 38. So Alice has this weird relationship with these old comedians. Yeah, I come walking into Groucho's house my first time, and Alice is in bed with Groucho, and they're both wearing Mickey Mouse ears that say Groucho. And so he's living out here in LA, and Alice is hanging out with Groucho, and Jack Benny likes him.

So you see these guys. You see Benny and all these guys. Alice does much more than me. But that must have been a thrill for a Jewish kid. How sweaty my armpits got. I started to learn not to wear green shirts. Oh, really? Yeah.

Always wear black. So when Groucho approaches you to match. I'm a complete groupie. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, you got to be a fan. Yeah. Yeah, I feel that too sometimes. Groucho, I couldn't even say anything to a complete groupie. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, you got to be a fan. Yeah. So. Yeah, I feel that too sometimes.

Groucho, I could never, I couldn't even say anything to him. I try to think of what to say and I never could get words out of it. And I'm managing him and I can't get the words. It's Groucho Marx. Right. So you were Groucho, you were a Marx Brothers kid? Oh, yeah. My dad.

But at this point, your dad used to love him? Yeah, yeah. So at this point, what's Groucho doing? Groucho's doing nothing. It's a talk. She's popular on the Carson Show and stuff, right? Yeah, not really. He did that album on A&M at Carnegie Hall. The Groucho Files?

Yeah. But what I did was get the show back on the air. Which one? I helped to get You Bet Your Life. You Bet Your Life, yeah. It was all actors. Yeah. So they all were SAG members.

Right. So in order to get it back into syndication, they had to give reduced rates. So it was negotiations with the estates to get reduced rates. No kidding. And that's how the show got back on the air. How long did it stay on the air? Not that long. I don't know.

How old was he? He was old. He was, he was, it was funny. There was a girl in his life named Erin. Yeah. Erin something. Yeah. And when she was in the room, and she was actually the manager.

She's the one who hired me. Right. When she was in the room, he was tall and lucid. When she'd leave the room, he'd get short and not too lucid. So you say, Groucho says, what can you do for me? And you say, well, what do we got? Yeah, well, no, it wasn't that. She said that we've run out of money for our second shift of nurses.

We have to generate some money. To take care of him. Yeah. So I looked at their world, and the TV show was... That was possible. Yeah. And what did you do for Raquel Welch at that point? Raquel, I put together a song and dance act.

She was very honest with... I really like her a lot. She was raising two children on her own and realized that she was a aging sex goddess yeah and needed to make a living uh-huh and uh asked uh you know if there was a way to do it and it seemed an obvious highway that ann margaret had developed at that time for vegas yeah uh-huh so that's what i did i put together did it work yeah work right we signed long term at caesar's palace it was the first first HBO music special with Raquel Welch live in Vegas. No kidding.

Yeah. So you negotiated that too? Yeah. Yeah, no, it was very funny. Michael Fuchs owned, was running HBO for Time and Water. Right. And it was a very small company. And the only thing that was really working on pay TV was pornography. Yeah.

So I would always pitch him an Alice Cooper concert or a Blondie concert or a Teddy Pendergast. He'd say, I just want porn, leave me alone. Fuchs was one of porn. And then I said, what about Raquel in a very low-cut dress? He said, hmm, see-through? Yeah. Right.

And that was before, that was at the very beginning because he eventually kind of invented the comedy special, the hour comedy special, I think, with Robert Klein. Yeah. With Alice, too, how did you elevate, you know, like, I know that you talked about it in the film, and I'm sure you do in the book, the mythology of Alice and the animals and the chickens and the bite. I mean, I guess it's Ozzie who bit the head off a chicken, but what you had.

Alice got the credit for it. Yeah. We did it at that Toronto festival with John Lennon. Yeah. yeah we threw a chick i threw a chicken up on stage just because where'd you get the chicken it was a feral chicken it was just running backstage really yeah a feral chicken in toronto yeah yeah it was weird there was five or six of them back there really yeah and you just threw one on stage i threw it on say we were using feathers at the end of the show. We used to rip open a feather pillow and put CO2 on it. And it made like snow. Right.

So then they got a chicken and what happened? He threw it out to the audience. The audience ripped it apart. And the next day the paper said that Alice bit the head off of the chicken. And you were like, this is the best thing. The best thing that's ever happened to us ever. We had the ASPCA at every show. We had mayors.

We had everybody bitching. And he just milked it. We had the ASPCA at every show. We had mayors. We had everybody bitching. And he just milked it. We milked it. We still milk it. Yeah. And his stage show got more ornate and more kind of macabre, right? Yeah. I think he became better at what he did.

As a showman. As a showman. We became better storytellers. Uh-huh. As writers. Billion Dollar Babies was a big record, right? That wasn't, and then... School Dad was a big record.

Billion Dollar Babies was a big record. Killer. Yeah. Killer was a big record. I just like, you know, what you're saying to me is interesting because I was at, I talked to him briefly. Maybe I even saw you. Were you ever at Conan with him when he did the, he had the cane?

You know, he did the top hat thing. Oh, thank you, yeah. You know, and I talked to him because I think we had talked about doing one of these before, and I just met him briefly, but, you know, the whole sort of like, you know, kind of vaudevillian, you know, he's got the top hat and the cane, like, you know, he's sort of aging into this, you know, it was a very self-aware thing he was doing, you know, like, I mean, how old is he? He's your age, right? He's 70, yeah, 69. Yeah, so like, you know, he's got, you know, he You know, like, I mean, how old is he? He's your age, right? He's 70.

69. Yeah, so, like, you know, he's got, you know, he's sort of like, I'm the song and dance man. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I like those dudes, because I feel like that way with Dylan, too. I really think that as Dylan is just going to sort of, like, die in a hotel on the road somewhere because he doesn't want to get off the road.

Yeah, it's wild. It is, but there is this sort of, like, I'm a troubadour, I'm a song and dance man. Alice is that way, too. Alice told me the other day, we were were talking and he said, you know, the only time that I'm really comfortable where I know exactly what I'm doing is the hour and a half when I'm on stage. Right.

That's the time. He said, for me, that's almost like meditating. I can hear, I can see that. It's because you're completely present. It's your, it's your, you have complete control of the environment. It's your world. It's his, you have complete control of the environment. It's your world. It's his world. He said he loves that moment.

And you made Anne Murray a star. How? I mean, she was really good, and good techniques, but also I got her in a picture with John Lennon and Harry Nielsen and Alice Cooper and Mickey Dolenz at a time when she needed to be made contemporary. Oh, right. She could have dropped one way or the other. Right. You know, she could when she needed to be made contemporary. Oh, right. She could have dropped one way or the other.

Right. You know, she could have. Got to make her hip. Yeah. Yeah. So we had to make her hip, and that opened up the door to Midnight Special and Rolling Stone. Oh, those shows, huh?

All those shows. And so what's Howie would like at that time? What are you hanging out at the Troubadour, Dantanas? No, not so much. Dantanas a little bit. A place called Roy's, which is where the House of Blues is now. Oh, yeah. Well, that's gone now, too.

Across from the Comedy Store. Rainbow, gigantic. Sure. Oh, so that was the beginning of the Rainbow. Yeah. Right upstairs from the Rainbow, there was the Vampire Lounge, you know, where Alice and John Lennon and Harry hung out. Oh, really?

And they were there every night. So the Rainbow was along that. Yeah. They were there every night. They were there every along that. Yeah, they were there every night. They were there every single night. And who were the club owners then that you must have had a relationship with? Mario and Elmer still.

Yeah? Same owners. Yeah? Yeah. Mario's still around. He's still there, 92, 93. There were policemen from Chicago, supposedly Capone's bag men.

Uh-huh. Big cigars. A kid. So they were connected guys. Yeah. Was there a lot of that here not a lot because it doesn't

feel like that it doesn't feel like New York or Chicago wasn't really part of it right these were just great characters I don't know if they

were connected or not sure it could be whatever character you want but they were great to everybody they fed us they really took care

of everybody I mean when I was the doorman at the comedy store in the 80s, the Rainbow was still pretty much like a place where you could go eat in a way, like they had pasta. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I used to go up there with Kennison sometimes. He used to hold court up there. It kind of held its own as the metal place, the hard rock place. It still does. Lemmy was there every day. But then you get involved with R&B acts. Yeah, I loved my passion in music is R&B.

Teddy Pendergrass, Wake Up Everybody, Harold Melvin, that was sort of my song. Yeah. And also it was, you know, it really fit my riding in on the white horse, the Jew on the white horse to save the day. Civil rights guy? Yeah. Uh-huh. You wanted justice for the black entertainer.

Absolutely, yeah. And did you have to fight some fights for that? Yeah, it's been pretty good. It came, it was. How'd you meet Teddy? Met Teddy through Goddard Lieberson, who was the head of CBS. Yeah.

The executor of Groucho Marx's estate. It's weird how everyone's connected. How does, he's got a friend who knows what. Teddy, was Teddy a nobody at that point? No, Teddy had just, Howard Melvin was gigantic. Teddy had, after, what I was saying before is that after I went through my Ann Murray thing with Alice and did my, then I decided, you know, now that I know I sort of know what to do, I only want to deal with artists who also know what to do.

They have a vision for themselves? That have been vetted already. That have been successful. Right. And still survive. You didn't want to start anyone out. Right. So my criteria was a number one record.

Right. That's what you wanted? Yeah. Or else I wouldn't. With someone who was seasoned. Yeah. Who had been vetted. Who sort of could take the heat.

Right. And Teddy was that guy? Teddy was the first one yeah and did you get your number one record yeah he had number one when i went to see him uh-huh um it was his first solo record and i went to see him as a manager and there was like every jewish manager in the world waiting for him and so i just left i never i never went after signing anyone yeah they'd always call me yeah so i didn't go and then he called me and asked me how it went i told him that you know there were plenty of competent managers waiting to see him that he'd anyone. They'd always call me. So I didn't go and then he called me and asked me how it went.

I told him that there were plenty of competent managers waiting to see him, that he'd be okay. He said, no, no, this is an important asset to me. I think it can be really long-term. I know you'll extend the career and please go meet him. So I had to go back down and I decided I was going down. I'm going to be, make sure that this is the last time I have to go see him. Yeah. And that was pretty outrageous. I mean, there was a ring of truth in it, but I went up to his apartment and I said, listen, man, sorry to take up your time. There's very few things that I'm sure of in life. Yeah. One of the things I'm sure of is that you have no idea how to differentiate between seven great Jewish managers telling you what they're going to do for you. There's no way.

So I don't want to be the eighth. Right. So here's what I know. I can get higher than you. Yeah. I can get drunker than you. I got more beautiful women than you. And when you collapse and there's cash in your pocket, I'll be there to take the cash

out and make sure nobody steals it. And he just looked at me like I was, and I expected he'd throw me out of the place. Right. And he said, okay, when are we meeting? And I was like, oh shit. So we actually met two weeks later in New York in a two bedroom suite. Yeah.

And he went at it. What did we go at it? And I managed until he died. Went at it. What did we go at it? And I managed until he died. And I actually never would have told the story. Yeah.

Except in his biography, which blew my mind, because Teddy was the proudest man I've ever met. I love Teddy. Yeah. Teddy was like, I can't even describe how close I became to him. But in the book, he talks about how this little white kid, Jewish kid from Oceanside. Yeah., smoked and drank and ate at a table. That was you.

That was me. You might as well own it. You know, you brought him through another couple of hit records. I brought him through a bunch of hit records. The thing that we did that I think both of us were proudest of is that what I didn't realize is that black artists were really being treated differently than white artists. Uh-huh. There was a thing called the Chitlin Circuit. Yeah, sure. And it really existed.

It was a real thing. Yeah, there's comics too. Yeah. Mm-hmm. With real people and real guns and real consequences, and we broke it. But his last manager got shot to death. What do you mean you broke it? We broke it, yeah.

Which means what? Which means there's no more Chitlin Circuit. Oh, so they had a hold on the black audience and they had a monopoly

on the venues. What they had is a monopoly on the black artists who were successful. So if you were a Teddy and you came into Baton Rouge

as a white artist, you would make your choice of who promoted your show based on how much money someone gave you and how professionally they were in doing the show and the production value they could give to your audience to make you look good. In the Chitlin circuit, if you went to Baton Rouge, you had to deal with one promoter. He paid you whatever he wanted to pay you. If he paid you.

If he paid you. And he provided whatever services he felt like providing you. You didn't send the rider. Right. You got what he wanted to give you. So my first date with Teddy, where I didn't know this existed, these people from the Holiday Inn showed up with a Shure microphone system in an 8,000-seat hall.

For you that don't know, I mean, a Shure microphone system is something you use for maybe 150 people. And they said, we've got to have is something you use for maybe 150 people. This was eight. And they said, we got to have it back in an hour and 10 minutes. We're back on again at the Holiday Inn. And we had 7,000 people in the hall. So this was a promoter or a gangster who got some friends. Who rented the system for an hour and a half.

And we didn't get paid. And when I went to Teddy, he wasn't surprised. So how'd you get the money? We didn't. Oh. Did when I went to Teddy, he wasn't surprised. So how did you get the money? We didn't. Oh. Did you ever have to fight for money? I got a ring from the guy that's as good as I could do. But Teddy, you know, it didn't affect him at all.

I said, you know. Can't do business. I can't do this. This is not what I do. So I can leave or we can break it. And that's when he told me his last manager, he got shot to death. I said, nice time.

Very nice time for you to pick to tell me. Thanks a lot, pal. So how'd you break it? We did some shows for white promoters. They picketed it. Yeah. We did Radio City Music. Who picketed it?

The Black Promoters Association. They were very organized. The Chitlin Circuit was very organized. Uh-huh. So the Black Promoters Association picketed promoters picketed knowing that they were treating artists badly they didn't think they were because they were getting hit records

they had their rented Cadillacs you just said you didn't get paid it's all in the eye of the perceiver he's saying it cost us this much it's all questionable stuff so once saying it cost us this much. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So it's all questionable stuff.

So once you had success with the right promoters and they... So what happened is we did the shows, we got picketed, it got pretty heavy. People show up at my office, I had a couple of incidents happen. What? Yeah. And things you don't like to talk about. Yeah. Because people are still alive. Uh-huh. Right.

And we finally made a deal. And they saw I was serious. And I was having some other acts, sort of jumping aboard Earth, went on fire, then went and booked with a white promoter a show. Oh, so you made that possible. I didn't do it, but I saw they did it. So their system was starting to crumble. Right.

So they came in and we talked story. and they tried to get very heavy with me. And I basically said, listen, what you see is me. My mother's dead. My father's dead. I don't have kids. I don't have a wife. I don't even have a mortgage. I could buy you the bullet.

Please put it in my brain. Yeah. Because I got nobody who loves me. All I do is work. I'm a miserable fucking guy. And I'll pay you to kill me. So if that's really what you want to do, let's do it.

If you want to do some business, I'm happy to do that. Like what is the unique approach? Please. Yeah, just kill me. Kill me. And we worked at a deal, and the deal, which they were very honorable to,

and I was very honorable to, was that if a building was owned by an institution like the Greek theater, was owned by the city, Radio City was owned by someone, then that promoter had the right to do the show. And we would force them to give a percentage of the show to the Black Promoters Association. Right. If it was an open promotion. Yeah. We would use our promoters and force them to be 50-50 partners with the Black Promoters

Association. So they kept their money. Yeah. They kept their pride because Black Promoters Association. Yeah. So they kept their money. Yeah. They kept their pride because their name went on it. Yeah. We got to deal with people who paid us. Yeah. And provided the services we need.

And it probably sort of tempered the unorthodox cowboys. Right. Nobody was thrilled, but everybody was making a lot of money. Right. And it probably pushed some of those guys back who were basically pimps for show business. Correct. Right. Oh, good.

And I stayed very friendly with most of the black promoters. Yeah. I mean, still to this day. Yeah. We actually worked it out as gentlemen. I was really impressed with the way they stuck to their word. And we were able to really make, nobody got hurt. Yeah.

The artists got everything they should have gotten. Right. The two promoters who were basically promoters for the most part have to be criminals to make money. Yeah. Because the artist squeezes them so hard that if they're artists, they can't make anything. Yeah.

So they each took half of what they steal. Right. So it was perfect. And so, and what other black acts did you work with uh luther vandross stephanie mills ben varine rick james um as a manager yeah no kidding i went into an african period where i just loved magic feshy king sunny a day did you do that first the the big attempt at the american record with king Sonny A Day? Yeah, I tried.

I tried hard. What was it called? Juju Pop? Yeah. Yeah, I remember. I tried really hard. Yeah, yeah. Didn't take.

Couldn't get it across. One of my times I wasn't too happy about my job. I just could not get, I couldn't get anybody to buy in. Yeah. Only colleges. Yeah. Only people would buy in. But he was a beautiful man, really elegant, beautiful man. And then stuff like Gypsy Kings, Only colleges. Yeah. Only people would buy in. But he was a beautiful man,

really elegant, beautiful man. And then stuff like Gypsy Kings, which were... Sure. You did that? Yeah.

Wow. So at this point, do you have a big operation? Yeah, I have about 60 people maybe. I'm doing a lot of movies. A lot of... I always wanted to...

What's a manager's involvement in a movie? Because how did that structure? How were those deals structured? Well, it's different. I had a film company called Island Alive. So we were the first independent. For me, making movies was like everything else.

It was protecting the artist. Right. So I did six Alan Rudolph movies. I did... Oh, those are interesting movies. Yeah, Choose Me, Trouble in Mind. Those are kind of difficult movies. We did Koyaanisqatsi.

We did El Norte. We did Stop Making Sense. So that was really pre-independent film, independent movies. We were the first. We distributed, financed, and produced. We were the first independent film company in America. Island Alive. But that was not related to Island Records.

Yeah. It was a joint venture of Chris Blackwell and myself. Uh-huh. You did Stop Making Sense? Yeah. That was a big movie. None ofwell and myself. Uh-huh. You did Stop Making Sense? Yeah. That was a big movie. None of them were big. None of them did over.

I think our biggest movie was Kiss of the Spider Woman did maybe $4 million. Now, really? Yeah. That's it? That's it. Because they're challenging movies. Not Stop Making Sense, but Alan Rudolph.

You have to remember there were no art theaters. I remember seeing Choose Me in college at the Nickelodeon in Boston, like at an art theater. Great movie. It is a good movie. $890,000. David Carradine, right? Keith Carradine. Keith Carradine, right. Catered it out of my truck. Really? Yeah. So you're on set? And Teddy on the soundtrack. It's a really interesting story of how that moved, why that movie exists,

and why Teddy's on the soundtrack. This was all, that movie was five years of work to get Teddy money after his accident. And one thing led to another. One coupon led to the next coupon, which led to, and the last coupon was Alan Rudolph calling me up. And two years after he had written this script for me of the thing called Choose Me, Luther wrote the song. We needed to make believe Teddy was going to do a soundtrack. We all thought he was going to die. But I had someone who would give him a million dollars for his family

if we could pretend he was going to do a soundtrack. So I went to Luther and asked him to sing a song making himself sound like Teddy. Really? Yeah, and he wrote Choose Me and made himself sound like Teddy on it.

I went to Alan Rudolph with the song, and I said, you need to write me a script of a movie that will never get made, but I have to put in a file somewhere to protect this guy who's going to give me a million dollars for Teddy, who needs it. Yeah. So Alan wrote the script. Luther did the song. About a year and a half later, Alan Rudolph called me up,

and he said, hey, Shep, I need a favor. I said, anything for you, Alan, hey, Shep, I need a favor. I said, anything for you, Alan, anything. He said, I want to make the movie. I said, you've got to be kidding me. And I had just won the Cannes Film Festival with The Duelists, which was my first movie, Ridley Scott's first movie, as a live film. And I said, you're kidding me.

He said, no, mate, you told me I got a coupon I want to make. So I called Chris Blackwell, who had a reputation for being a very bad guy. And I said, I know you're kidding me. He said, no, you told me I got a coupon I want to make. So I called Chris Blackwell, who had a reputation for being a very bad guy. Yeah. And I said, I know you're the devil. I know you've always wanted to be in business with me. Give me a million bucks to do this movie that you will not get the soundtrack to, because I sold it already. And he had a record company. And that's how we formed Island Alive.

That was the beginning. But deal with the devil. Deal with the devil. Now, Alan Rudolph was Altman's protege, right? He was Altman's protege. We had done, he did all my music videos for me. I loved, I wanted my artist to always be the first to use new technology. Yeah.

So we did music videos before MTV. Alan did them for us. We did video albums before there were discs with Blondie. We did the first HBO special with Raquel. Whenever there was a new technology. Alan did it for you? Alan didn't do that when I was another guy, but Alan did almost all of our stuff.

Directing them. And then we did a fabulous documentary with G. Gordon Liddy and Timothy Leary. Yeah, yeah, when they were touring. Yeah, Return Engaging. We put them on tour and filmed theary. Yeah, yeah, when they were touring. Yeah, return engagement. We put them on tour and filmed the tour. Oh, you created that tour? Yeah.

That's hilarious. Then we took it to Cannes. Oh, my God. We presented it in Cannes. Did you know, were you friends with Leary before? No, no, no. Alan's the one who brought the project in, and we all loved Alan for doing the videos for us.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God, that's hilarious. hilarious and the duelist you did that with ridley scott yeah that was our first movie now when teddy i imagine when teddy had the accident that was a tremendous turning point for you personally yeah like what what what what did you change about your life? Because you ended up having problems eventually, right? I think that it definitely put a damper on what I did for a living. Took a lot of the joy out of what I did for a living. I started seeing the endings instead of the beginnings and the middles

when I'd work on an artist and a project. Yeah. So that part. Also having a friend go that way was just... Quadriplegic. Yeah, not able to stop him. He did it to himself. What was he?

Was he drunk? Yeah, he cracked two or three cars up that week. So he was spiraling, and he couldn't stop. And I just couldn't stop him. And everything was going good for him. Yeah. Isn't that him. Yeah. Isn't that something?

Yeah. Well, what did you learn, like, you know, looking at the, because I know we can talk about how you built this relationship with Mike Myers and when you became this sort of, like, different force, you know, for people. Like, what did you learn about artists that, you know, from that frustration of not being able to? Yeah, I don't know if I learned so much about it from that.

I mean, one of the things that I always knew about artists is that it's usually, their drive is usually driven by holes rather than strengths. That it's usually

fear of that drives them on. Really? Yeah. I don't think I have any friend who isn't successful, who's an actor, who's over 40 or 50, who really thinks he's never going to get another role. Right. And really thinks it. Mm-hmm. Fear drives them on.

And I think part of that is- But it can't be desperation. Not desperation, but fear. Right, right. Living in that fear zone. Uh-huh. So that it becomes all encompassing. Right, and then there's the fear of failure,

the fear of not... And what I try and say in my talks with everyone is my biggest takeaway from everything I've done in 40 years of doing it is that you're going to die. You're going to die. Everybody's going to die. So go for it. Don't be scared. You're going to die. Everybody's going to die. So go for it. Don't be scared. You fail.

Whether you fail or you win, you're going to die. You're dying. And I don't mean that in a morbid way. Yeah, no, of course. That's the one thing, that's the biggest fear, is accepting that. So you're saying, accept this. And then all the rest of it's easy. Yeah. So you're saying, you know, accept this.

And then all the rest of it's easy. Yeah. Put it into perspective. Yeah. Put it in perspective. And, you know, don't be that person whose head is on the pillow in the last 24 hours saying, I wish I had. Oh, I should have. I wish I had done. It doesn't matter.

You're going to die. Uh-huh. Do what you want to do. Right. Yeah. And that's what I used to really try and drain into all my artists you know the most I used to tell all my artists when I started with them the most important thing in our relationship

is not how much you pay me but you're giving me the ability to fail I have to be able to fail and same thing with you you. That's your pitch? That's as good as the kill me pitch. Yeah. You got to be able to, but you have to be able to fail. Right. Or I can't do anything good. So, and also puts you in a position not to be a fucking liar. Exactly. Right. But it's being honest right at the beginning. Yeah. You know, I don't do contracts. Yeah. I try and be really honest. I don't, if you're not happy with me or I'm not happy with you, we shouldn't be working together. You shouldn't have to call a lawyer.

Yeah, no lawsuits. Yeah, you just call the guy. I'm your friend. Call me up and say, you know, it's just not working for me anymore. Yeah, and what actors did you work with? Didn't work with any actors. Right. Never really.

Mostly music and movies. Yeah. So it was music and film production. Yeah. Really. So how do you build this relationship with Mike to the point where he makes a movie about you? Yeah, no, Mike was amazing. Mike...

Mike Myers. Mike was one of those moments, you know, I always, in my business, tried to be brutally honest, even to sort of a floor. Yeah. And I used to always tell my artists, you know, if you want to know,

I can get you to know in a second. You want a yes? I can never tell you how long it's going to take. Right, right. But I'll stay on it until it's a yes. So we got this call to do Wayne's World. Okay. The call came in about two months before the actual filming date for Alice to do.

Oh, it was a music thing. Yeah, to do a music thing. Act in it for about 11 seconds. Yeah. And then the end credit song would school us out. It was schools out in both places. So I asked if we could do our new song, because in those days, soundtracks were very significant at radio.

If you could go to radio with a soundtrack record, you had a good chance of getting a hit. Really? Yeah. As you know, it was Saturday Night Fever, Rockies, and all those. And even if it wasn't a hit, you're on the record, so you get the...

But radio plays it. Right. That's the hardest thing. Got it, yeah. At least you get a chance to see. So I said to Alice, I said, they won't let us do the new song, so we've got two choices.

We can either just agree to do Schools Out, or I can fuck them over, which I think is the thing to do. I don't think they'll have time to replace you, but you may be put out of the movie. If I tell them the truth now, they'll get someone else. I'll take the heat. I'll go into the end. You know, I said, but he said, do whatever you think is right. So I went to bed. Was he willing to lose it? Yeah. Couldn't care less. Yeah. Right. He doesn't care. He doesn't have a phone. That's the best position, isn Yeah, he couldn't care less. Yeah, right. He doesn't care. He doesn't have a phone. That's the best position, isn't it?

Yeah, couldn't care less. That's what I mean about failure. Never ever once has he ever. Right. I rarely even tell him. Right. He doesn't have a phone. He doesn't have a computer.

He doesn't care. He lets me. Yeah, plays golf. Yeah, plays golf. So about a week before the movie, I asked for a meeting with Mike. And I go in to see him and I said, listen, I don't want to be that Hollywood guy. Yeah.

I said, but I do want you to know I lied to your production people. We're not going to do this. We're not going to let you use that song. Yeah. Or Alice, unless you give us the new song. And he said, absolutely not, I told you that. I said, listen, just listen to me. So he's in the movie 11 seconds. No one's going to know what he plays. Yeah. Let him do the new song for 11 seconds,

and I'll let you put schools out on the end credits, which is what you really care about. And we made the deal. So we got our song in the thing. And then about- Did it work? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

It worked great. The record wasn't a hit, but it got us into the 20s. Yeah. It wouldn't have gone anywhere if it hadn't been in the movie. The new song. And he got schools out and he was happy. Yeah.

And then I heard about a year and a half later that he was in Maui at a hotel right there. Mike was. Yeah. So I got a hold of him and invited him down

actually for Ridiculous Luau with Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger and I think Whoopi Goldberg. Now these were, because I remember that in the movie. So you moved away from LA

and you moved to Maui and that's where you live. Yeah. Still. Yeah. And you just liked having people over. Yeah, I enjoy cooking and entertaining. So you fly people down?

No. They fly down. Yeah, who's over there? You invite, oh, whoever's around. This is, I think, a Planet Hollywood opening. Okay, in Maui. So you said, come over. Yeah, I do parties for everything.

All right, so, okay, so he's in Maui. So he doesn't believe me, but he comes over and they're all there. And they all leave and he's sitting there. I see he's just not comfortable. And we talk and his father just passed away. So anyway, I said, you know, my guest house is free. Come hang out for a few days. And he ended up staying a couple of months.

And we had a really nice time. I channeled him to my grandmother a lot and fed him. We talked a bunch and I would tell him stories. And then he started coming to Maui. He bought a house with his wife that they shared with Helen Hunt. So they used to come a bit. Then they got divorced. When they got divorced, he came and started to stay with me again.

He started coming regularly enough that we got into this rhythm where he'd come, I'd cook dinner, and I'd tell him stories. Right. And then he started coming to the house with names on his hand. Oh, yeah. To ask you about? So we'd sit down for dinner. He'd go, okay, Charlie Chaplin.

Yeah. Did you have one? And I'd go, yeah, it was amazing. Charlie and Groucho, I got together at the savoy hotel for tea one morning yeah and it was just and then he got albert finney and i go to my but i never missed the story there was never one person really never one just the ones he happened to pick even if it was just one or two i lied about. Oh, yeah. Just to keep it going. But there was never one. And somewhere in this process, he would say to me, you've got to let me record these stories.

You've got to let me put these stories. You're not going to live forever. You know, nothing else for your kids. And I just, you know, having seen what fame has done to so many people that I love, no reason for me to flirt with it. Yeah. done to so many people that I love. No reason for me to flirt with it. I didn't see any reason for me to challenge myself as to how I would deal with fame. Would I deal with it better than other people?

Like what happened if the movie was actually a hit? The documentary. Yeah, am I now going to turn into a drug addict and an alcoholic and kill myself? That's really a fear? Yeah. You don't trust yourself enough? Fame is, I mean, I've seen stronger people than me

who just can't survive fame. What is it about it? I can't tell you exactly. I think for most of the people I deal with, it's because they were live performers, they fought so hard to get people applauding. Usually for some reason other than the applause to thinking it's going to fill up something maybe something with their parents something some self-worth issue oh so right and it doesn't show it up right so they

got everything and they still feel like shit yeah and then then it's like what now then that's when it moves to rehab and that's when yeah, because now you have all the resources to do whatever the fuck you want. And you're not happy. And the hole's not filled. So there was no reason for me to flirt with it. And I had never been to a psychiatrist. I never dealt with any of that stuff.

I knew I was as fucked up as anybody else on the planet. Yeah, you don't have kids. Yeah, but I'm pretty happy. So why mess around? No, I don't have them either. And you're not married? Not married now. I was married, got divorced.

Got married at 60, divorced at 64. Yeah. Seeing a nice lady now, really enjoying my relationship. Oh, right. But just didn't see any reason whatsoever to deal with it at all. It was other than ego. And I didn't want to succumb to just doing something for ego. So I kept saying no to Mike.

And then I ended up having a surgery. And not knowing, I flatlined twice at the surgery. What the fuck? What happened? What kind of surgery? Just something. You know, these are like cars. They go sometimes.

Yeah. So, but when I woke up, I was in a hotel room by myself, feeling very sorry for myself. After the surgery? Yeah, yeah. Like, I probably had been awake an hour. In a hotel room? No, in a hospital room.

In a hospital room, yeah. My secretary there. Yeah. None of my adopted kids happened to be there. No woman in my life. You have adopted kids? Yeah, four. Uh-huh.

Well, great. And started really feeling sorry for yeah four uh-huh well great um and um started really feeling sorry for myself uh-huh you know like uh and he called he said okay now i said yes really fast yeah thinking about uh you know the ego side of it i mean that's really why i answered it, was to leave, well, if I live through this, at least I'll leave something behind for, you know. Yeah. The ego, like when you talk about ego,

do you have a spiritual disposition? I'm very thankful all the time. I don't attach it to any one thing. You never tried Jew? No. Buddha, nothing? No, but always I've been, I've taken as sort of a principle in my life that there's something bigger than me

that's in charge of this whole thing. And that I'm never going to figure out who it is or what it is. Yeah. So I don't dwell even on that. I just dwell on doing the best I can possibly do on this life. And so I go to dwell even on that I just dwell on doing the best I can possibly do on this life so I go to temple

for the holidays but I don't read the book I'll go to mass with my kids I appreciate the ritual of all of them why do your kids go to mass they were all catholic how did you end up with a bunch of catholic kids I adopted four afro-american kids that's interesting

and you adopted them as they were already I adopted four Afro-American kids. Oh, okay. My family. Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. And you adopted them as they were already, what, how old? Baby was two weeks. Really? Yeah. But their grandmother and great-grandmother raised them. Their mother is the one who died. The mother died and fathers were sort of unknown. Well, how did you end up with them?

I had their mother. I lived with their grandmother for about four years and their mother for four years. In a romantic relationship? Okay. And then I lost track of them for 10 or 15 years and heard that the daughter died. Oh, geez.

And when I went, there were four little kids at the funeral and nobody didn't take care of them. So you just stepped in? Yeah, just sort of smoked a joint, went to the car, said, is this the moment? Come with me.

So you legally adopted him? No, no. I never legally adopted him. You just took care of him. That's amazing. Three of them are back in Maui with me now. Doing all right? Everyone's all right?

Yeah, for the most part. For the most part, doing really well. It's great to have them home. Two new ones, two little babies, a four-year-old and a three-year-old

who are just so precious. And they all live with you? No. The three of them are living on Maui. One lives with me in Maui, but she works with Alice on the Road

doing VIP ticketing. Uh-huh. And one has a, her and her husband have a tattoo parlor in Lahaina. And one's a, I read her husband have a tattoo parlor in Lahaina. And one's living upcountry with their baby

and then one's in my, the house that I originally got for them in New York. Oh, wow. When we first started with their baby. It's a big life in a way.

It's a big life. So when did you be, like before we end up, you know, it seems to me that you're responsible for the celebrity chef reality. For me, that was just a really wonderful part of my life.

My passion is the culinary arts. I found that late in my life where I don't really have that passion for music or for movies. If I don't have stereo at the house, if I didn't see another movie, I'd be fine. If I didn't cook a meal, I'd go crazy. It really caused it. You always cooked. No.

I got lucky enough when I won the Cannes Film Festival to meet a chef who sort of taught me in his way how to be happy. I was really at risk. At a hotel or what? It was at a restaurant. I got taken to a restaurant called the Moulin des Moujans when I won with the duelist

and met this wonderful chef who was very successful and very happy. It was really obvious he was happy. And you sensed that. And I sensed both that and I sensed that in me, I was headed for trouble. I was too much drugs, too many beautiful women, too successful. Poor you. Just, yeah. But, you know, all the stuff.

I know, I know. All the fool's gold. Sure, sure. Okay, yeah. But I could hear a voice in me. It was empty. Yeah, and I was seeing people getting hurt. You know, the Hendrix's

were dead. The Joplin's were dead. Consequences started coming. Yeah, yeah. Right. You know? And I could see I was on that train and I just, when I saw him, I said, he can save my life. Uh-huh. And he did. You know, but what, not because he consciously

did. He just did. And I became his grasshopper for 25 years. How do you start a relationship like that? Very weird. I saw her come into the room. I made up my mind that moment. I thought about Kung Fu, the grasshopper and the old man. Literally, yeah.

And I waited until after service, and I went over to him, and I said that I would like to be his grasshopper. And he didn't speak much English. He had no idea what I was talking about. And he said, what is this grasshopper? Yeah. And I said, well, I'd like to hang out with you. And he said, well, I'm a simple chef.

Do you know how to cook? And I said, no. And he said, well, if you learn how to cook, you can come back and work in my kitchen. So I asked him how and he gave me names from cooking schools. And I went to those cooking schools. Really?huh. So I asked him how and he gave me names from cooking schools and I went to those cooking schools. Really? Yeah.

How many years? Just into that next year. Marcella Hanson in Italy and a fellow named Charlie in Bangkok. How long at each place? A week.

Didn't learn much of anything but came back with being able to say to him I went. Well and also you could understand how things come together. Yeah but

enough that I could come back and say I went. And I came back he had no idea who I was. But I said, well, you said I could work in the kitchen. And he said, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm leaving for Bangkok right after the festival. So I asked him if I could come, and he said yes. And on that trip, we really bonded.

We got to spend a week in Bangkok. And that just started our journey. And every year we would travel. He ended up, I ended up having a movie in Cannes for the next 12 or 15 years. He was the guy in Cannes. He did the Ab Far thing with Sharon Stone. And we'd take a bus and go for two weeks and travel. And eat.

Eat and drink. And you learned how to cook. And you learned how to cook. And I learned how to cook through him. And I also got to see this amazing collection around the world of culinary artists who were treated exactly like the Afro-Americans were in the Chitlin circuit. It was the same thing. So I knew I had the skills to change it. And as I got to know the chefs,

they sort of knew that too. So one day we all got together and decided we would change the game. And we started an agency. Um, I think about 65 of the, you know, Nobu Wolf gang. Yeah. Emeril. Emeril. Um, the whole gang, Alice Waters, everybody. Danielle. Danielle. Danielle. And changed the game around. And got the Food Network on the air. Started to get products in stores. Yeah. Multiple restaurants.

Started to... What I told him when I started with him is that Michael Jackson, if there weren't delivery systems like record players. Yeah. MTV, stereos, you'd be a wandering minstrel, which is what they are. So we need to develop home delivery systems. Food Network gets you in their house.

Spices gets you in the store. Videos, books, just like every other artist. And once we started to do that, it really took off. So when you develop this relationship did you just stop with show business when did you stop with what what would be called well obviously you still got alice but did you at some point say i'm done with this yeah i had a moment in my life just like everything else it's always been moments i had a um premiere of a wes craven or a John Carpenter movie at Universal.

Great carpet. All the stars. Yeah. Bored to death. Yeah. Flew to Maui the next day. Yeah. On my hammock by myself.

Uh-huh. Having a vodka and lemonade. So excited. Like every molecule in my body. Yeah. Ecstatic. And I said, what's it all about? I'm going to die. Yeah. That yeah that was it yeah it's crazy so i flew into l.a a couple of days later called the palace asked me where he was he said

he was in l.a and i said could you get me i don't want to have to drive after lunch i'm getting very drunk yeah and i resigned from everybody one morning everybody was happy except luther luther felt deprived but everybody else was really happy for me but i resigned from everybody one morning. Everybody was happy except Luther. Luther felt deprived. But everybody else was really happy for me. But I resigned from about 100 clients that day. Wow. Mostly music. A lot of food.

I'd say 12. Oh, this was after you started the food thing? Probably half and half. So you definitely left your mark, and you can feel proud and grateful. I'm really proud of what I did. And you live healthy now? Yeah, I really live a great life. No booze?

Yeah. Oh, a lot of booze. Smoke a lot of dope. Yeah. Don't really do any of the harder drugs anymore. No desire whatsoever. Yeah. If I had a desire, I'd probably do them.

Right. Because I never was out of control with it. Sure. You know, I have one kid who can't drink. He should never drink. Yeah. Really simple. Yeah. You do what you can do i always had the tolerance right right so yeah no i i have a couple of vodkas a day usually i just came from italy uh-huh hunting for white truffles oh yeah we drank and ate like wild men uh-huh good time really good time when you think about show business

when you think about who do you consider, because you have sort of accumulated a lot of your own wisdom and your own philosophy about things that sort of keeps your outlook good. Who do you credit as your mentors? My mentors in life are Roger Verger, the chef, His Holiness, Dalai Lama, who I had a chance to serve, which I'm really... Food.

I cooked for him and I serve on his board for the last 20 years. But you're not a Buddhist. No. You just like him. And I love everything I hear. All the Buddhist things fit right into my life. Are you in touch with the Dalai Lama? Not at all.

Yeah. Not at all. And I would say Norman Lear from a distance. So alive and so in his 90s. Norman Lear from a distance. So alive. And so he's in his nineties. So in the moment. Yeah. So positive and so willing.

I loved it. Yeah. I was at a Bob Saget's birthday party and, uh, we were out back with Norman and, uh, and me and him and, and Bill Burr smoked a cigar. And I was just, it always like you as well. Cause I'm not a, I, I do get a little compulsive. I don't drink or do drugs anymore, but like, I liked that at, because I'm not a, I do get a little compulsive. I don't drink or do drugs anymore. But like, I like that at 90 something, he's like, I have a cigar.

Fuck it. Yeah, why not? We had dinner and he was, he looked at his phone. He said, I'm just waiting to see if they picked up my Amazon series. He's 94. I love that. Yeah. You know, I think I keep.

But what about in management? I can't say that I had any real heroes in management. I have a lot of respect for Freddie DeMann, who managed Michael Jackson and Madonna. Yeah. I thought he was really, really good. Yeah. I think some of the old guys, the manager Seymour Heller, who managed Liberace for 50 years.

But I didn't have a lot of contact with the managers. Right. But I think there's going to be a moment where the artists maybe are going to be able to turn the tables a little bit. I'm starting to see little things starting to happen. Oh, definitely. Like Flo and Eddie have a lawsuit against Sirius. I don't know if you saw that.

Really? Really interesting lawsuit. What they uncovered through the lawsuit is that they don't pay for pre-1972 copyrights. They were able to lobby Sirius to get a pass on paying any... Through SoundExchange. That's like the ASCAP of Satellite. But pre-'72, they don't have to pay. No shit.

But how did they accomplish it? They accomplished it by paying the record companies $345 million to agree to not take pre-'72 royalties. Right. But the artists didn't agree, and the artist don't get a flow through. So on those oldies, those Turtles records, right?

So they've had two court rulings now that Sirius can't play those records. That's big stuff. What about the back money? And that's where it's going to now, is damages for the back. So it gets, I think it's, you know, all these little things I read, like I just read in a Wall Street Journal article that one of the major record companies, I don't remember if it was Universal, is getting a million dollars a day from Sirius Radio.

No shit. A day. Not a week. A day. It's why they're so profitable. Nobody can figure out why these record companies are so profitable. Still. When you don't sell any records because they don't pass it through.

That's fucking insane. Yeah. So I think things are going to start changing maybe a little bit. Wow. The flow on anyone is going to have a big impact. For the back money. Mm-hmm. So the artists have been getting fucked.

But once the microscope goes on, Irving's been screaming about this for a while. Yeah, what do you call that? Forensic accounting. Yeah, once this magnifying glass gets on it and they start seeing that the record companies own the services that sort of determine how much money goes to the artist.

Well, that the payout there, that the deals that are happening at the top levels of satellite music and the record companies, money goes to the artist and well that that the payout there that the deals that are happening at the top levels of satellite music and the record companies for them to it's it's got nothing to do with the arts because they just think artists are just a bunch well you know they're that guy's dead they don't know better what's that guy doing but the guys who were saying that are like we got more money coming in yeah that's fucking unreal. Would be a great thing. Well, a lot of them are destitute.

And also we're going to lose all of our artists. There's no incentive for young people to go into music. But the weird thing about artists is that so few guys like you, and if you're a guy on the other side of it who's just trying to be an artist, you have that temperament. It was in your mind that you're like, I got to get a guy like you to earn a living you know so now that's changing a little bit because you can really find your own audience without anybody but

also like you know how do you find somebody you can trust and you know if you want really tough well you're a good guy and i'm glad that you're alive and i hope this uh the book sells but i i'm not you don't want it to get too big, right? No, not too big. Published by Anthony Bourdain, by the way, which I'm very proud of. Yeah, he's a good cat. I've talked to him a couple times. Really good guy.

Yeah, yeah. He came up to me. He said, I want to write your book. And I said, why? And he said, because if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be famous. And I said, I've never met you. I don't know. He said, no, no.

He said, you made Emeril Lagasse famous. And I made, I've never met you. I don't know. He said, no, no. He said, you made Emeril Lagasse famous. And I made myself famous by beating up Emeril Lagasse. So I owe you a coupon. How many coupons you got out there? I got a lot of coupons.

All right. Chef Gordon, thanks for talking. Thank you. Okay. Moving forward. We can do it. Let's just stay in touch.

Let's keep talking. All right. A lot of broken hearts out there. A lot of fear. of the fear a lot of that was manifested in rage and anger so now what do we do with ours let's not fall into ourselves let's keep doing what we do and doing it harder huh let's bring it in. No guitar today. I gotta go act.

I guess we all do. Boomer lives! Arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No, but moose head? Yes, because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.