WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 760 - Legs McNeil & Gillian McCain / Andre Royo

Episode Date: November 16, 2016

Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain wrote a book that changed Marc's life. On the 20-year anniversary of 'Please Kill Me: An Uncensored Oral History of Punk,' Legs and Gillian tell Marc why they wrote it in the first place and why it still resonates two decades later. Also, Marc's neighborhood buddy Andre Royo stops by to talk about his new independent film Hunter Gatherer. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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T's and C's apply. Lock the gate! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking news what the fuck nicks what the fucking istas what's happening what the fuck tuckians everybody how's it going i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it as we slog through the muddle i'm pretty excited about the show today because um it represents a time in music that unfortunately i was too much of a i don't know if i was a square but it was not pumping into where i grew up uh my guests today i there's actually uh two separate sets of guests so that that's exciting. Today on the show, I'm going to talk to Andre Royo. He's an actor, but he was bubbles on the wire. But this new movie

seems pretty great. He's in this new film called Hunter Gatherer. He lives not far from me. I always love seeing him. He's a great guy. He's a great actor. He's going to be here for a few minutes to talk about this new film. And then we have Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain. Now, I've talked about this before, but Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain put together one of the greatest books ever. Please Kill Me, the uncensored oral history of punk rock and i i was excited to talk to them because that book changed my life probably in a bigger way than than most but a couple of books the denial of death by ernest becker what i was going to say at the beginning is i missed punk rock somehow in a way. I remember buying the

first Sex Pistols album in New Jersey while I was staying at my grandmother's when it came out in the United States. I didn't know what it was. I'd seen pictures of Johnny Rotten in the music magazines I was reading, but I was 13 years old or so. Punk had not grabbed the culture quite, and I was around the age that it should have grabbed me but I kind of missed it by a few years to when it really took hold but I had the record I still have the record I like the record but I didn't understand what it represented and then I didn't I didn't quite lock into it it was around a little bit towards the end of high school and then when I went to college my first real girlfriend had the side of her head shaved and that was pretty punk rock but i

kind of pushed back against it because i was such an old-timey motherfucker with my music tastes and it was this book please kill me the book that uh that i have the authors on today and that moved me through everything that changed the entire landscape of my musical understanding and and and also just blew my mind with a bunch of new bands about 10 years too late or more but it was fucking great i mean i i was lucky enough to get into the velvet underground in college because uh one of the guys that lived in the house before me bob gaffney Because one of the guys that lived in the house before me, Bob Gaffney, left his brother's records there. And Live in 69 was one of them.

So I had that as sort of a foundation. But Please Kill Me moved me through all of it. Through the entire New York punk scene. By way of the MC5. The Velvet Underground. Iggy and the Stooges. And on through the Ramones. And everything that happened down there. The New York Dolls.

Talking Heads. Tom Verlaine, Johnny Thunders. It just moved me through all of it. And if you get these books and you listen to the music, which is so fucking easy to do, so you can experience it while you're reading about that. I do it with jazz. I do it with whatever music I'm reading about. It just opened up my brain entirely, like just under the wire wire because who knows how old you get before your brain just closes up but this punk rock shit from back in the day and that you know they lived a life but you know it

was like even new york new york city in the early 70s was this you know almost like a bombed out mess and you know just sort of where it sprouted out of. You know, Patti Smith, Robert Mapplethorpe as well. It just sort of grew like energized, loud fungus out of the Lower East Side there. And those days are behind us, but the music exists. Yeah. Having Twitter off my phone has freed up some space and time seems to function

in its natural unfolding as opposed to amped up with just a constant onslaught of virtual garbage spinning fragments of light here and there. Me up and down, cortisol, endorphins, sadness, down, cortisol, endorphins, sadness, elation, anger, all of it happening in minutes over nothing. Felt good. I'm really considering taking it off just my computer too, just life without it. I have friends who do it. And I used to think like, what the fuck are they doing? How do they live without it? I'll tell you how. They live in the fucking world. You know, what are you going to get on there? As time moves on, it's starting to become apparent that the truth might not be revealed. Because it's just a goddamn big media muddle. Just a never-ending dodgeball game of bullshit.

I'll be in Nashville this Saturday at the James K. Polk Theater. You can go to WTFpod.com for information on that and some tickets. I think there's a few left. I'm looking forward to that. I have friends down there. You can see Nate Bargetzi. Maybe I'll see Margo Price. Maybe hang out a little bit.

Hopefully the show will be nice. Maybe I'll be able to just jam some hot chicken chicken into my dumb face burn my face and my mouth and then get on an airplane and have that experience said that actually came into consideration for me i was like uh when i can have time to get hot chicken i'm only there for one night and if i do get hot chicken am i willing to pay the price for that on a fucking airplane i think we know what I'm talking about so right now I want to talk to my friend Andre Royo a great guy great actor his new independent film called Hunter Gatherer which is now playing in New York and Los Angeles this is me and uh hi it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

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are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries

are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Andre. So what happened? You were going to be my neighbor, and then...

Again, reality hit. I saw the beautiful house. I was excited. I looked at it. You know, we knew the asking price and all that. And I'm like this, yeah, I'm on a couple of shows. I should be able to. And then the reality hit. Then somebody sat me down like this. You remember the last time you did moves like this?

Yeah. You wanted to, you were broke. Don't do it again. Like, don't get it started. Don't get it twisted. Right now, you're a renter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what you are. Accept it. Yeah, so I couldn't do it again Like don't Don't get it started Don't get it twisted Right now you're a renter Yeah yeah yeah That's what you are Accept it

Yeah so I couldn't do it But it was such It's such a beautiful place It was alright It was you know It was a nice location But it needed a little work It needed work

But the space Yeah Like you saw the You know like everything else The opportunity Yeah yeah There was a lot of opportunity That you could really

A little party house A little cool house Yeah yeah A little chill All the amenities Yeah Of being in anything you wanted it to be. Right, right. But it couldn't be yours because you can't afford it. That's right.

So when was the last time you were back in New York? Oh, the last time I was back in New York was for the movie that's coming out November 16th, Hunter Gatherer. Hunter Gatherer. Hunter Gatherer. Hunter Gatherer was in a festival called the Rooftop Series in Brooklyn. And I went down there for that. How'd it go over? It was great.

It was great, first of all, to be back home. The prodigal son has returned with a little indie film. I always want to come back home like this. I'm coming back and here's my... You're hoping to come back. Here's my chill. A Superman indie film. I always want to come back home like this. I'm coming back and here's my, you know. You're hoping to come back. Here's my chill. A Superman's outfit. A superhero outfit.

A superhero. The big take. Everybody knows me. A zombie apocalyptic and I'm the savior. But I got a little indie film to start off with that. And I have to go down and go into that whole concept of, you know me. I'm about the craft. I'm about the artistry.

I never give up my indie spirit love. Until they go, could you sign here? You want that house? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get a bigger one. Yeah, do it. But can I bring my craft to this shit? Yeah, no.

Yes, you can. Of course you can. You bring it right to the Airbnb. That's what you got to go. Take that craft and that it right to the Airbnb. That's what you got to go. Take that craft and that honesty to the Airbnb. But that's the funny thing about those kind of decisions where you don't know how the hell a movie's going to come out when you get into it.

You don't know. You're all acting on good faith. I don't know who the director was. How did you get the movie? How did it happen? A friend of mine, Julia Kim, casting director, we kind of met, hung out a little bit and found out that we kind of like the same kind of quirky films here and there.

And she said, you know, I got this script that I might be in casting, and it's weird. It's a weird type of, you know, it has the archetype of a movie that we've seen before. You know, a man gets out of jail and tries to fix his life. Like straight time. Like straight time or Scarecrow or Stroject. And it just feels like it's the norm. And I'm like, all right,. Like straight time. Like straight time or Scarecrow or Strogek, you know, and it just feels like it's the norm. And I'm like, all right, let me read it.

Yeah. And all of a sudden I'm reading it and I'm like, this tone is different. It has a little surreal, simplistic, like honesty about this film that I kind of dig. Uh-huh. And you want me to, I might have a chance to be the lead, carry a film. Mm-hmm. I said, let me, let me, let me meet the director and just talk about it. Let's chop it up and see if I can trust him and he can trust me.

And then a 6'9", tall, blonde-haired, white boy walks up, and I'm like this, you got to be kidding me. Come on. What do you know? Get out there. You're the bodyguard? You must be the bodyguard. Where's the little man?

Where's the little brother at behind you? Yeah, where's the little black dude that wrote this? Yeah, and he sat down, and he was really like a cool dude. And I was like, all right, let's see. You want to do this? Can you trust that I can do this type of role and not have people go,

oh my God, look, it's Bubbles. Yeah. You know, which I love, but you want to be able to craft another character,

right? Right. And he was worried about that too. He's like, yeah, you know, because this guy,

you know, he's down on his luck, blah, blah, blah. I don't want people to go, oh, well, you know,

for my first movie, I got Bubbles to play Bubbles. Yeah. That's not a, that's not a leak. But is this guy a drug addict? No, he's not at all, blah, blah, blah. I don't want people to go, oh, wow, you know, for my first movie, I got bubbles to play bubbles. Yeah. But is this guy a drug addict? No, he's not at all. But, you know, I think in the original script, it was like, you know, pushing a wagon or homeless, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, yeah. I was like, you know. A little close. A little close. Can I do it without a hat? Yeah, please. Can there be no drugs? None.

I don't want to even have a cigarette in my hand. Nothing. But, yeah, I mean, it was fun. It was fun to really sit down. And I think the difference between an independent film and a blockbuster is that, you know, I think the expectations of everybody on the set is automatically in an indie film, they're all like this. Look, I'm Michael.

We're just doing this because we love to do it. And it'd be great if it goes, you know the upper echelon some to bigness yeah but it can't really it's a little indie film and so we're okay with that everybody okay with that then you know it being a festival here and there and then disappear is everybody okay with that right and we all kind of like this well we're doing it for the for the love right right we're doing it for the crowd we're also doing it for maybe me Maybe. I mean, it's a hope. But we don't need it.

Yeah. Because we're artists. Yeah, that's right. Of course we don't need it. We don't need it. But when you do a blockbuster, you're like this. This is going to go big, right? Like, this is going to be the one that changed my life.

And when that fails, you go, what happened? Yeah. Because everybody had different expectations of the movie. Sure. I'm feeling that now on a country level. Yes. But the thing is, is that with that now on a country level. But the thing is that with that,

with the smaller crew, with the indie film, and without the stakes of a blockbuster, that there is a unity to that, and there is that feeling of, whether it's love or not, you are all working together. We're all working together. We're all creating together. That's right. You understand the limitations of the situation. That's right.

18 days and countdown. That's right. We can't shoot of the situation. That's right. 18 days and countdown. That's right. We can't shoot at the airport. We got to do it in the living room. Yes. And you feel good. And you feel good because somebody's back

and I'm going, and you feel like all the creative juices are flowing at the same time. This is art. This is what it's about. Craft services might be a little disappointing,

but that's all right. But as long as you let me know, I always tell every person that comes at me with an indie film, they want to know if I'm interested in doing it, will I do it, which is always that wonderful question. I mean, I don't know, would you do this? As long as you let me know.

I'm going to eat the same pizza every day. Just let me know up front. Just say, look, my mom is cooking, and when that doesn't work, I got to deal with the pizza shop. I'm okay with that. Instead, if I got an idea that it's going to be a craft service and it's not, I'm a little salty. I'm a little bit like this. Is this the same pizza, though? Did you reheat the pizza?

Yeah. Don't reheat the pizza, man. That's the only thing in the contract, Ryder. Can we mix it up on the craft services? Not two-day old pizza. No, not two-day. One day is good. The day after is always good.

But that next day, no, it's a little hard. So, now, the guy who directed it wrote it? Yes. What's his name? Josh Losey. And this is his, what, third film? This is his first. First big film.

First film. What? First film ever. Never did anything? Not a short? Didn't look at anything on YouTube? Not near one. Not near a one.

Never wrote a movie before? Nope. Not that I know. This is his first joint. His first joint that he was working on and and that I you know that's what I guess was the instant connection of you know this guy to us and he's like this is my first movie yeah I mean I yeah you know I don't know why I wrote this story but it spoke to me and blah blah blah and you know he was really you know passionate about it and then when I sat down with him and

I'm like look man I'm, I'm looking at my career. I don't get to carry a film that often. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, it's exciting. Yeah. So if you trust me with your baby and I trust you that you can execute and you won't leave me out there in the wind with your choices.

In fact, the only thing I could ask- Steer the ship. Steer the ship. Because you see indie directors with them 18 days and the money's run out and all your extras left because they didn't like

the cold weather or that pizza. You see indie directors start to break down. They buckle. They buckle. They go, oh my God,

I can't do this. Oh my God, I can't do it. And I'm like, that's the worst. Don't do that. Don't do that. If you don't break down,

I won't fax it in i won't be like this no one's gonna see this movie anyway right so it really doesn't matter yeah yeah you know fuck it i just want this shit to be over let me just do the line over the over the shoulder i'll just do the line you know so i i think again you know as long as he he had the stamina to believe in himself to trust that he can get it done i was like i'm here with you and i will give you everything i got and i will listen to you like and you know what i might listen you can direct me you can come and say i don't feel it i don't like it i need a different give me a different choice but that's the amazing thing that you know

he's doing his first movie you're doing your first lead in a movie yes so there's a vulnerability there that's a trust that has to happen has to happen yes and uh it's exciting you know and and then like the weird thing is in my experience just being an actor on a show that that where i'm not being me is that uh you know at you know first the first bit you're like oh shit am i gonna be able to do this and then about halfway through you're like oh yeah this isn't as hard as i thought and then oh but you're almost done you're like, oh, yeah, this isn't as hard as I thought. And then you're almost done. You're like, I'm about ready for this to be over.

Yo, this is long enough. Why did I do this? That's when you know it's really testing you. And you're proud of yourself that you still allow yourself to be challenged. You still put yourself in these situations where you know the third day you're going to be like, I didn't have to do this. Like, I didn't. I could be watching the game.

Why? We shooting on Saturday? Oh, we have to shoot on Saturday. Okay. And that's the interesting thing, too, that, you know, you're a lead, so I don't know the situation, is that a lot of times when you're an actor, you know, like you're going to get all this coverage.

You're going to do that scene, you know, 10 times from every angle. Yeah. And a lot of times, like, you know, the ninth time when the coverage isn't even on you, that's when you finally nail it. Of course. That was living in oblivion. You know, the whole concept of Steve Buscemi.

Right. You do all your good work off camera. Right. Off camera, you're fantastic. Can you put that, can you put it on the camera?

Because you finally got it. Yeah. That was the last shot. You're like, I just found it. I just nailed it. So that happens to you too? All the time.

All the time. All the time. All the time. Or somebody else is covering. Yeah, that was it. Or somebody else. Yeah, when you're over your shoulder. Yeah, or somebody else. I deliver that line like a master.

Like, wow. So I get what that line really means now. Not what I wanted it to mean, but what it organically means. Right. Exactly. Because you're sitting there going this. It would be cool if I said this line like this. Right, you make choices.

You make choices. But you don't necessarily feel it. Yes, because you make choices as an outsider. Yeah. Looking there and go like this. It would be cool if I said this line like this. Right, you make choices. You make choices. But you don't necessarily feel it. Yes, because you make choices as an outsider looking in at yourself, directing. You direct yourself. You make those choices.

And once you get past that bull crap, you go, you know what? Let me start directing myself and trusting what this scene is about. But it takes a moment. Yeah, because it doesn't happen

right away because you're hoping the choices will carry you and they can. Yes. But there are those moments where you're like, choices will carry you and and and they can yes but there are those moments where you're like oh i finally get what the fuck is happening here because i can read a script and and and then by the time it's broken into scenes and it's shot out of order i don't know what the fuck is happening i gotta refresh myself on what's happening and everything else and you do all this other work but ultimately and this is what i was

getting gonna get to was that you know you as an actor use a person who's a creative person you know you bring a lot to it but the stories on the page yes and and at some point you got to trust that yes and people look at you and go and when they see you work and they see they see how it looks so effortless yeah they don't know the whole behind the scenes thing they think then that's what you do automatically they think you don't do all the rebuilding and fixing and time. They think, oh, he comes in and he sees it. He sees it on the page.

Yeah. That's what I love about this actor. He sees it on the page. Right, yeah. No, behind closed doors, we tried everything under the sun, and then when we're fully exhausted, we'll read it right before we go to bed and go, well, that's what this scene's about. Okay, you know what? Shit, I might have missed it.

Let me try to remember that when I get on set. Let me try to remember that. I hope on set. Let me try to remember that. I hope I fooled them. Yes, that's right. I hope that the story was strong enough in that scene that they don't know that I didn't know what the fuck was happening. Who's the editor? Let me know. That should be your best friend.

The editor is your best friend. And that's the other thing about when people are watching a three-minute scene, and they're like, that was smooth. They don't realize that. That took us 19 hours 19 hours of an indie film any film arguing

you know complaining second guessing looking at the makeup artist like did I do good somebody tell me

I don't want to ask the director because I'm supposed to know somebody tell me did I do good please the second AD you're like that was alright

that was alright I loved it man no I felt it okay thank you seriously don't you be honest with me no no allowed to be what is this what's the character's name uh Ashley Ashley Douglas uh-huh a good dude you know I I put them together like again in my process now you know the director me and the director were talking about this tone and yeah it just felt a little you know offbeat and you know i said you know how why is it off beat well you know we again it's off beat in the

idea of perception and how as a black actor i have to still say that yeah i'm probably gonna say it more now but as a black actor i've i i take a a certain sensibility of how we're seen on screen by watching a lot of movies and watching a lot of TV shows and seeing what surrounds us. And now I read a script where there's no cursing, there's no drugs, there's no violence, and I'm like, well that's different. It shouldn't be, but I'm like, wow, that's different.

There's nothing in here that hits me in the face with, you're a black lead and you're not gonna curse? You're not gonna, there's no drugs, there's no violence? Ooh, you feel weird. And you go, you're a black lead. Right. And you're not going to curse. There's no drugs. There's no violence. Ooh. Yeah. You feel weird. Right.

And you go, wow, this is interesting. Yeah, yeah. Will people get this? Will people even want to get this? Do people know how to get this? Yeah. Right? Yeah.

And so, and I asked him, I said, yo, so, like, you know, where'd you get this tone from? It was very, you know, it's got this little mystical, the music, everything about it is just a little surreal, a little offbeat and he told me to read a book called Confederacy of Dunces. Yeah, sure. And I read it,

first time reading it, Tool. Yeah. Yeah. And I read this and I love the lead character. Yeah. Ignatius,

it was something about the way he was just braggadocious and just like, wanted to be liked, wanted to have a connection and it was like, come on, you gotta like me

because you made me believe you liked me. So you should keep liking me. And then I thought about Kanye West and how Kanye West, you know, Kanye West says some stuff. And most of the stuff that he says makes sense. We just don't like who's saying it. The way he says it, we're like, we're not going to tell you you're smart.

Just shut up. Just shut up. But then later on, I go, I wish somebody else said it. Like, if somebody else said it, you know. I wouldn't have had this reaction. Yes, yes. So, Ashley Douglas, you know, he has an idea of how, you know, he was perceived. Like, going back to your high school reunion, you go, you know, before you go, you're like, everybody loved me.

I was the funniest guy on the planet. And then when you go to school and you're bumping into some people at the back, you know, later on, you're kind of an asshole. You know, you was kind of, you know, you was annoying of Nazis. And you're like, you're kind of caught up like, what do you mean? Why are you being so mean, man? How are you going? And then you get mad. It's your fault.

You made me believe that you liked me. That's not my fault. Now, you know, so Ashley has a problem. Ashley's coming out of jail and saying... What was he in the can for? It's not revealed fault yeah now you know so Ashley has a problem Ashley's coming out of jail and saying what was he in the can for it's not revealed in the script I have my back story

but it's not revealed in the script and I think the director's choice he didn't want people to define this character by you know

a specific past like oh he's a convict right to hang that on so yeah convict's enough convict's enough we know why he makes his choices

so you know we don't reveal that and we keep it very interesting yeah we keep it very you know very oblique is that the right word yeah I think so yeah but do we just keep it the audience never knows because if it was drugs or if he was a killer or a rapist

and then all of a sudden that You have an idea what the category is. Right. You've already put like. And that's not what it's about. It's about a guy trying to reintegrate himself. Reintegrate, find himself and just try to, you know, get the life that he had before he left.

Well, it sounds like, you know, that, you know, however humbling prison it was for the character, which is obviously going to be somewhat, that, you know, the options getting out were, well, I'm just going to go back to being this big guy or whatever I thought I was before. That's right. And then life humbles him. That's right. Exactly. You've been

through this before, huh? We speak of experience, I see. Yes. You know, that's exactly right. You will be humble. Yes, you will be. There's no way around it. Absolutely. Unless you get out early. Unless you get out early.

Or just move somewhere else. See, if you go somewhere else, you can create this. Yeah, yeah. Then you got to keep moving. You got to keep moving. Your character stays the same. You have a new set of friends. Uh-huh.

And who are the other actors you work with? Anything exciting there? Well, we have this guy, George Sample III, new actor. I think this is his second movie. Found him in Sundance. He did a movie called Cronus. And he was fresh out of St. Louis. And he's a first-timer.

And it was so humbling to sit there in a table read, and he was like, you know, last week I was just hanging out in 7-Eleven, and now I'm working with the great Andre Royer. Come on, I'm just like this. I canEleven, and now I'm working with the great Andre Royo. Oh, yeah. Come on. I'm just like this. I can't let him down.

I got to know all my lines. I got to hit every mark. Now I got to teach. No, not even teach, but I just got to be perfect. I got to be perfect. You got to be the great Andre Royo. I got to be the great Andre Royo. And then all of a sudden, you learn a lot.

Because you see a young person, they're glee, and they're making choices. You're like, wow, he's finding things. You remember what it was like when you see a young person, their glee, and they're making choices. You're like, wow, he's finding things. You remember when it was like when you found things? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you just were like, oh, my God, this is a good choice. And we kind of just worked well off each other. Then there was another woman, Kalei Stewart, a comedic actor who did a lot of things on TBS.

I think she just sold the show where she talks about her life as an actor where she's always the the black female friend and and she was just cool and and she also said to me

you know it was just weird like I don't know I found a lot of gray hairs after the first day of meeting everybody because they made me feel old oh yeah

because she was just like you know I first met you or saw you running around in the Acapulco Black Film Festival back in the day and your energy I was like wow this guy this guy, he's going to make it. And then if he can make it, hey, I can make it too.

So now I'm working with you. And my manager and agent said the only reason they brought me the script, because there's no money down script, is because Andre Roto's on it. Oh, no shit. And I'm like this, oh, my God, the weight of everybody. Now I got to act and live up to these young people's expectations. It was awesome. They held me accountable. And then I held them accountable. Now I've got to act and live up to these young people's expectations. It was awesome. They held me accountable, and then I held them accountable.

Like, don't fuck up the great Andre Roy. Leading role. Hope he said that. Well, you know, I implied it. It's subtext. It's subtext. But it was beautiful. It was beautiful, and I understands the simplicity, the humanity.

I found that people say I bring to every character where they just seem real. It's one of those comedies where you kind of awkwardly laugh at the idea that this is how people act in real life. This is what the internet blew up on when you just caught people in a news conference talking. And when you hear them talking, you go, wow, that's a real person. What was your feeling when you watched it? Were you like, all right. When I watched it, I told the director the same thing

from when I read the script to watching it. I said, you know what, every once in a while, I'm involved in a project that makes me a better artist, that makes me feel like a better person because I make decisions on doing something, not because I think or want or hope, but just because I liked it.

And my best compliment to date, it premiered in South by Southwest and I won Best Actor. And people were going like, oh, really? It was so different. It was so unique. It was so weird. There was stuff that you don't hear that much in acting no more.

You don't hear unique. It was weird. I didn't know what I was watching, and all of a sudden, I didn't know why, but I liked it. That's kind of, it feels, you know, it's refreshing. And my manager came to me and was like this. Okay, you know what? You refreshing. Yeah. And my manager came to me, you know, and was like this. Okay, you know what? You were right. And I loved that.

But they were waiting for this to be bad. She was fighting on you? Yeah, fighting all day. I'm going to make sure I get you to book something that you can never do this movie. It was like that kind of energy because they were just scared. They were just like, we don't get it. I don't get the movie. It just seems strange.

And I'm like, yeah, no, that's why I like it. Yeah. And I want to tell them, tell you know and it worked out i don't know if last time we talked about you know how it came to pass but you know i'm in the middle of casting for this movie like i'm reading with other actors to see who's playing the part we're about to shoot next month everything is going well i'm kind of excited and then my manager calls and it's like oh empire empire they got a role for you you gotta leave like tomorrow. Yeah.

And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm in the middle of casting. I told you. I told you. You can't say no to Empire. Empire's too big. I'm like, I know it's a big show, but I don't know. Well, Danny Strong is calling you.

Pick up the phone. You know, create a number. So he calls me. He's like, hey, you know, how you doing? Look, I know you might have heard This is a A four episode arc But no we want you For the long run Like if it works out

We love you We've seen your work before Yeah You know we'd love you To come on board And I was like Yeah you know I'm

I know Listen I get it You're a big show I love this show You know I love the impact that it has I'm doing this indie film Yeah

And he's like this Indie Okay Hey How about this You do You When you doing impact that it has. I'm doing this indie film. Yeah. And he's like this. Indie. Okay. How about this? When you want to shoot the movie, I said, it's an 18-day shoot. You want to shoot next month?

Okay, that's not going to work. But here's what I can do. You come start working Empire. I'll take two episodes. They'll give you two episodes off. And then you can go shoot the movie. All you got to do is have those people wait for you.

And I never heard that. And the actor, at my level, okay, the great Andre Roto, never heard that before. Like, you want me to go up

and tell these guys that I'm making this movie to wait for me? So I'm like, that's not, or you know what, but I got this guy saying on Empire,

he'll give me two episodes off to go do it. You know, I was like, okay. So he gets it. He gets that, you know,

I might love this indie, but I also need that money and love, you know, Empire. But they want you. But they want me. And they're willing to go do it. You know, I was like, okay. So he gets it. He gets that, you know, I might love this indie, but I also need that money and love, you know, Empire. But they want you. But they want me. And they're willing to go. It won't want you bad enough. They will do you a favor.

Yeah. We'll let you go do your indie film. Yeah. So I go up to the producers and the director and they're casting like, you know, Jay, we got another guy coming in. I'm like, look, remember when I told you, you know, my manager is going to make sure I get a job that won't allow me to do this movie they just called me for Empire do you mind

waiting like two more months and we shoot in a couple of months and the room was silent director Josh was like you see his face all of a sudden that 6ix9ine white boy looked mean I'm like uh oh and he was like

you're doing Empire there's going to be a lot of eyes on you and this is an indie film white boy look mean. I'm like, uh-oh. And he was like, you know, he was like, well, you know, you're doing Empire. That's a lot of, you know, it's going to be a lot of eyes on you. Yeah. And this is an indie film. Oh, shake it ahead.

The business, baby. The business, baby. Show business. And then he was like this, you know what? Yeah, we'll wait. We'll wait. And it took a hit.

Like, they lost the whole chunk of, like, the, you know, the grip. Oh, everything was ready to go. All the crew, they left.

And we had to rehire new people. Yeah. But they waited. And that was, like, the first time in my career I had the crew, they left, and we had to rehire new people. But they waited, and that was like the first time in my career I had somebody bending, you know, doing me a favor on network, and a movie house going, yeah, we'll wait. Yeah, you're learning the business. I'm learning the business. I'm moving on up. So it was all around, mentally and spiritually and artistically, it was a growth.

And you can only hope that you keep growing and you keep involving yourself and challenging yourself in new projects that make you grow. Absolutely. Because you don't want to get bored. No, no. You don't want to get bored or complacent or feel like you're hiding. Yes. Yeah, I'm not worth anything yet. Come on. The check clear? The check clear. We're hiding. Yes. Yeah, I'm not worth anything. Come on.

The check clear? The check clear? We're on season 19? We do season 19. One more. One more. It's not going to happen. I'll do that passion project next year.

How did Empire go? Empire's fun. It's going well. The time that I came on, second season, there was a lot of guest stars. The energy of the expectation because the first season was a monster. So you could feel like the second season, everybody wanted to hit the same way. So you could feel there was a little tension on set, but the actors, Taraji and Terrence, the young kids, they were so fun

that they were like, that tension, that's somebody else's problem. We just hit the playground. We just play. And we just play it and it's been a lot of fun. It's been a lot of fun

and the, what do you call it, the feedback from my character is dope. I'm having a good time. And now, I go somewhere, I was doing something

for the school and all the kids run out, oh, that's Thirsty from Empire. But all the teachers come out, that's Bubbles. And they don't know who's Thirsty, who's Bubbles. And I'm sitting like this, wow, this is kind of cool. I'm going to my trailer. Well, thank God. It's sort of like now you're Bubbles and something else.

And something else. Bubbles will stay in my heart forever, wire for life, but I want people to know that. But Thirsty can live there too. Thirsty can live there too. We have so many personalities in our bodies. Yes, I got a couple more characters in my body that I hope can come out.

Well, it's great, man. I wish you the best of success with the movie. It's always good to see you. You too, Maria. Thank you. And keep your eye out for a couple of houses in the neighborhood. I'm looking. I'm looking. I'll make sure to stack them checks.

If I go too crazy, you might buy this one. Give me a discount, man. Just give me a discount. All right. Good, man. Well, good to see you. You too, my man. Take care. Love that guy. movie sounds great it sounds interesting but it's always good to talk to him he's a real actor and definitely a real dude sweet guy legs mcneil and jillian mccain uh this is a little chaotic interview but legs is a an old cranky punk rock bastard, and Jillian's a little more level-headed. But their book, Please Kill Me, was just re-released in a special 20th anniversary edition.

You can get it now wherever you get books. All right, so this is me and them talking about rock and roll, punk rock rock pretty specifically. I know I had a copy of Please Kill Me, but I've had like four, and I give them away. No, you can't. You'll never see them again. No, I know. Because the book,

the reason I didn't even know you guys were going to be in town, your publicity, whoever was in charge, sent me something, and I'm like, I'd like were going to be in town you have your publicity whoever was in charge sent me something and I'm like I'd like to talk to them because the book like changed my life but I imagine you hear that a lot do you hear that? Yes but I want to hear how

it changed your life I kind of missed the whole thing you know I missed that time I was a little too young so I you know whatever I got musically you know was already because I graduated high school in 81, so that wave was already crashing, and I was in the middle of New Mexico.

So I had to have one guy. What the fuck were you doing in the middle of New Mexico? My parents settled there. They're from Jersey originally, and I somehow ended up growing up in Albuquerque. But I had the one record store guy that turned me on to shit. I had no sense of that whole time, but I liked some of the people involved.

So when I got it, I'm trying to remember what year it was, just knowing about all of those people and more importantly, the evolution from psychedelics through Detroit to that, the history was compelling to me and it all tied together and made sense. So during the time I was reading it, I was listening to all of it. So I was able to listen to all these people in context and put them all together. And also the book, because it's an oral history, humanized people that were my heroes,

for better or for worse. Yeah, that's what we hoped. Is it? Yeah. That was the plan? Yeah. Well, we had to show, because Danny Fields was very early on to Duncan Hanna.

Yeah. He goes, what's Wayne Kramer like? Right. He goes, they're assholes. And he goes, but they're great. And he goes, yeah, they're all great, but they're all assholes too. And that's kind of the, we took that to show everyone as heroic as possible. Yeah.

And also as disgusting as possible. Well, yeah. I had Wayne in here. I had Iggy in here. Wayne's better now. He's a pop. He just became a dad. He's so articulate, too. Yeah, he's a sweet guy.

He's got purpose in his life. But yeah, I mean, most dramatically, the one that took a fall for me was Lou Reed, really. And also, Nico became this fucking person. most dramatically the one that took a fall for me was lou reed really that and also uh nico became this fucking person like it blew my mind and not just the music but just in the sense of of realizing these people are people and it's not that they're not good people but they're just sort of like no they're just fucking just a pig yeah right yeah like you know i don't know what i was thinking these is a bunch of dirty drug addled fuck monsters who isn't bell mark no i know i know i know but like there's there's some weird cut off

in the brain when you want someone to be this rock god yeah and every but it constantly happens in here all the time when i talk to people i mean that's the best thing that can happen is you're like that these are just people yeah but you don't want to believe it some part of you doesn't you brought you want the whatever the persona is but a lot of times they're if they're not monsters they're just bores exactly you know that's exactly that's worse yes exactly i think so too for an oral history definitely no for life no but i think you're right for life yeah you're like oh god like actors like are tricky like some of them like have a you know a deep you know kind of personality but a lot of them you want so much for them to be who they who they who they are acting as and they're not and

you got to forget that you we always forget that somebody wrote those lines for sure you know yeah they didn't just come yeah actors are a little tricky but you can find them in there yeah sometimes but now when you guys what year did it come out so it's the 20th anniversary so that means it was 1996 so that was way after the fact yeah let's go back to the history a little bit legs you you. You're sort of a seminal figure in punk rock. Yeah. Well, because I named Punk Magazine, which named the movement. Yeah. How old were you?

I was 19. So you were 19, running around New York. Did you grow up in New York? No, I grew up in Connecticut, which was the worst state in the union. Sure. Yeah, I understand Connecticut. It's just a fucking nightmare. What part of Connecticut?

Cheshire. Cheshire, Connecticut. What's that near? Actually, it's a bedroom community, two towns north of New Haven. So what was happening? So you were 19 in what year? I just wanted to get out of Connecticut. Sure.

Any way possible. What year was it? We moved to New York. I moved to New York in 74. John Holmstrom had already moved there, and he was writing letters to me saying, I'm going to be a millionaire before you. It was always very competitive. From what I understand, New York in that time was, like, devastated.

Yes. It was beautiful. That's the other word for it. It was gorgeous. It was like Dresden after the firestorm. It really was, right? It was really. I mean, there were really like burnt out buildings.

Just, I mean, it was like this giant movie set. See, White Flight had happened. Right. It had been happening through the 50s and it was the very end of White Flight. Yeah. So everybody in New York who grew up there had moved to the suburbs. Yeah. So downtown New York was like deserted.

It was like this giant movie set yeah so great it was so much fun and you guys what were you living for like a nickel you know yes yeah i got paid um in the beginning i got paid 30 a week at punk magazine and that salary was cut to 15 uh-huh so i was living on 15 i mean we had to we had to take showers at nancy spongin's house you know oh really yeah yeah she was actually you know everybody says i mean and chloe webb did a on $15. I mean, we had to take showers at Nancy Spungen's house. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. She was actually, you know, everybody says, I mean, and Chloe Webb did a great job of her in the movie.

But, you know, I liked Nancy. Nancy was fine, you know? Who else was hanging around? So you were sort of defining this. You were not a musician, but you were seeing what was going on downtown. No, I never wanted to be a musician. I didn't want to have to wait for my drummer to go to the methadone clinic in the morning. Or die.

Or carry that equipment. You know, they were always carrying these giant games. Fuck that. Lazy. I'm lazy. Plus, I have no musical ability whatsoever. Yeah, that's part of it. But I didn't want to carry anything.

Yeah, but you but i didn't want to carry anything yeah but you tapped in somehow like you like when you got to new york was the plan to write about the music scene or to just homestrom i wanted to make movies yeah you know i thought being a movie director i get laid faster yeah you know i thought the magazine was stupid i did john kept saying i want to do this magazine about rock and roll and because comics well, what was out there at that point was just Cream and Crawdaddy. Rock scene. Rock scene. Right.

Circus. Circus, yeah. So you guys were kind of going to go anti that. Those were rock and roll mags, and Cream was sort of the rock and roll mag, so you were going to fight that. They were writing about rock and roll in such intellectual terms. Really? Yeah.

Not Lester Banks. Yes, he was he was pretty long he was like it wasn't quite intellectual but it was i mean it was like writing i mean he writes a 10 000 word review of raw power why don't you just fucking put on the record lester you know well but he was but he defined his sort of rock voice for criticism yeah what was who like richard melzer was hilarious yeah yeah and he's a smarty pants oh yeah yeah but he what band was he working with was it uh blue aster cult yes yes yeah the first time i met richard i said you don't look so tough and he punched me right in the

stomach did he really i am but he was at the ocean club but you came to new york later right yeah i came to new york in 87 so Yeah, I came to New York in 87. So it was gone. It was gone. It was done. What was happening in 87? Was that like Fiorucci's? No, Fiorucci was already done.

No, it had just closed down, much to my disappointment. But where did you come from? I came from New Brunswick, Canada. Wow. So I had older brothers and sisters who brought the records home. So you grew up with the records. Yeah, I was like in my Star Wars pajamas with the headphones on, ignoring mom and dad. Yeah, yeah.

And what compelled you to go to New York? Because you, like he said, you write poetry. That must be part of it. No, just the first time I went there, it's like, this is home. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, I was like 10. You were 10?

Yeah. That's when you moved to the Lower East Side? You were 10? No. See what I mean? I went to stay with my uncle, George, when I was 11. And I thought, I'm going to move here too. You just hit it.

You just know. You just know. No, no. I felt that. Because my family was in Jersey. And when we'd go visit them, I would take the the bus in as a 14 year old right in 19 well it's 77 cool and i would just walk around oh wasn't it cool wasn't it glorious yeah it was because you go to like look at all the music stores that was my thing i'd go look at guitars then i'd go to colony records and then i'd go down to the village

to bleaker bobs right but like for some reason the punk thing was happening then but it didn't yeah didn't penetrate didn't catch me i thought it was i don't know what it was that was the other thing as i'm talking to that i realized that i got emotionally invested you know in in the lives of these people that you guys talked to i didn't know much about those guys like i had the dead boys i knew blondie i knew you know uh the ramones a bit i knew the new york dolls i had those records again they didn't you know register with me but there was something about the heartbreakers that just fucking killed me it's like you guys you must be you must have gone to a lot of funerals in the last decade there's been 42 people who've died from the book yeah holy shit

yeah yeah mostly of cancer surprisingly you'd think it would have been drugs, but it was mostly cancer. Cancer, a few, Hep C. Hep C. Oh, God, they missed the cure. Yeah. Because they got it. They handled that thing. Yeah.

It took a while, but I know cats with the Hep and they got the cure. Yeah. And it's sort of like, what? Yeah. Cool. Like years of sweaty and tired and dying, just boom. Yeah. But what was your, in Nework when you got there because i

know you write poetry but did you already feel like you must be closer to my age probably yeah i'm 50 yeah i'm 52 did you already feel like you you like it felt to me when i got to new york even in the in the late 80s which i guess would be is that when you went yeah right so i got there the first time i was there was in 89 that you wanted all that shit to be in place. That was in the book. And it was really on its way out. Like there was still dope on the streets in 89. Crack files.

Right. And I was on second between A and B, so there's heroin. But that all started to go away. And whatever was left of these guys that you talked to, they were just kind of drooping around with their old leather pants. And people you know and then people go like that's the guy like that's the guy yeah so like the the romance of it was sort of you know gone well that's why we did the book when we did it because for me yeah it was a vapor you know this whole scene that i had been involved in was really kind of wonderful and great.

And the challenge for us was, can we recreate it in just words? Right. You know? That really was the challenge. Well, whose idea was it to do an oral history? I mean, what was it based on? Well, Jillian and I became friends through Maggie Estep. Oh, sad she died, too. I love her.ep. Oh, sad she died, too.

I love her. Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay. And we were always talking about writing and doing stuff. And Jillian and I really loved Edie, the Edie book. It changed my life. Yeah, it changed mine, too. Uh-huh.

Yeah. And I was doing this book supposedly with Dieter Ramon. He came to me. Did he want cash up front? No, he would just go, legs, legs, I got to talk to you. Yeah. Legs, you know, that Deedee voice. Yeah.

And so that did, but I started interviewing Danny Fields, which was just amazing. It was like therapy because I was really depressed when I started the book. And I would have to go to danny's and it was in this why were you depressed because the wave had crashed no i had yeah i had done this magazine that failed and i lost a lot of money going through a divorce and you know just a lot of midlife stuff well also writing i had been working at spin yeah and it had become like pornography okay madonna on the cover this month

you know this you know it's just you know just oh it's you know endless you know and it's like I wanted to fall in love with writing again you know I wanted to get away from the business a little bit yeah yeah yeah absolutely so Jillian and I were you know she was at

St. Mark's Poetry Project you were part of that? yeah yeah I worked there for years that's sort of another sort of nostalgic And I were, and you know, she was at the St. Mark's Poetry Project. And you were part of that? Yeah, yeah. I worked there for years. Yeah. That's sort of another sort of nostalgic kind of mainstay. Because when I got to New York, it was, I mean, the New York School poets were all alive. You know, there was this rare bookstore.

We'd go hang out with Hunky and Corso. So I still got some dreams to come true. Yeah. go hang out with hunky and corso so i still got some dreams to come true yeah it's so it's so wild that the people that define this whole trajectory historically they're so fucking specific yeah they were sort of available for a long time yeah yeah yeah if you had money to give corso yeah oh really yeah yeah he was such a hustler. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And hunky, but hunky was more elegant about it. Oh, they were always broke? Oh, yeah. Because I had a romance about that, like those guys, the Beats.

And when I grew up in Albuquerque, there was a cat who wanted to use Bookstore. His name was Gus. He was real important in my life. And I remember there was a poster in there. I used to have it framed. It was like maybe the first or second year of the Naropa Institute. And all of them were going. Like Burroughs was alive and Snyder, or maybe not Snyder, but Corso and all of them. And Waldman.

Waldman, yeah. So there's a big list at Ginsburg. They're all going to go for this conference. And I'm like, you know, I'm like 20. And I say to Gus, like, I got to get up there. He's like, what do you want to hang out with those geriatrics for? I never really thought about it like that. Oh, yeah, it's just like a bunch of old cranky poets. But that's funny because I went to Naropa for a summer. You did? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How was it?

So much fun. It was? Yeah, it was Ginsburg, Burroughs, Ann Waldman, you know, lesser known, Alice Notley, Bernadette Mayer. It was just fun meeting those people. It's like meeting Jim Carroll. Oh, man. So when you're, we're talking about the beginning of the book,

so you're depressed. Yeah. You're excited. I was depressed. You were depressed too? Yeah, my mama just died, and it was time to fold up the poetry project and needed something else to do.

And we were so, New York, I mean, when you look back, New York was still great compared to what it is now. Right. But we were seeing it begin to change. I mean, I love when we're shocked because there's a Barnes & Noble opening. It's like, New York is changing. And there was a gap on St. Mark's. Yeah.

Oh, I remember when all that happened. Yeah. You're sort of like, wait, what? But I got great shirts there, I must say. Sure, they had cheap t-shirts. It was pretty practical, nondescript shit. Yeah. It was got great shirts there i must say sure they had cheap t-shirts it was pretty practical non-descript shit yeah yeah i know it was cheap but that was also when like burrows when i was on gap commercials that was really weird when people were so easily co-opted but yeah but it also was there there was something about that as much as you may have liked bill that there was something kind of like impenetrable about his image.

So it wasn't going to really make him look bad. No. And you spent time with him? A little. Legs more so. I used to go out to Kansas for a week to basically see my friend James Growerholz, who was William's assistant.

Yeah, his guy. And we'd hang out with Bill. I love that over time, I somehow finally got a copy of that documentary, the Burroughs documentary, which I love. And it was hard to find for a while. Maybe Criterion put it out or something. But just how you imagine those guys.

And then just to see the dude that wrote Junkie and Naked Lunch just sort of doddering around with cats. Like, yeah, this one's really nice. That's all he talked about were cats. And feeding goldfish. Come here, little fishy, fishy, fishy. And that's like when you realize that so many of these people,

that the life of the mind and the literary life is completely not necessarily the life they're living. No, no, no. And it's a little bit disappointing sometimes, even with songwriters, you know, where you're like, this about you? Like, no, write a song and made up a guy.

Like, what the fuck? I know. Yeah. Like, I learned that lesson with Nick Lowe. He was in here and he played the Beast in Me. Oh, I love that. Right, but I'm like, this has got to be his life. And he's like, what? No. But Nick Lowe is the coolest guy in the world. He's a sweet guy, too.

I was with him and Elvis in there. Costello, I assume. Elvis Costello. Yeah. We were doing lines of cocaine the entire length of the pinball machine. And you had to do the whole line or you'd be an asshole. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I had the worst hangover of many, many, many bad hangovers. And that was probably the worst. Two days later, you had it. Yeah, right. When he right when he finally slept but you hated coke yes but I hated cocaine I can't everyone says I hated coke but I did it I loved it me too man I loved it didn't last long enough yeah but once it was gone I it wasn't like I was craving it no I was never one of those people too often where you know we gotta go out and get, you know, where it's four in the morning and you finished an eight ball.

And it's like, is the guy still up? Like, I was always sort of like, why? Why? I've listened to you talk enough. What else could you possibly have to say about nothing? I can't, I can't imagine Elvis Costello on blow because he was here on an espresso and I couldn't fucking keep up with him. But all right.

So you decide that this is the way to do it. So what leads to the oral history concept? I was interviewing Danny Fields. Right. And Jillian was reading the transcripts in the morning before she went to work. Yeah. And she always says with a yellow highlighter. I remember it was with a purple fucking highlighter. Yeah. And she would circle and you go, you got to put this in. You got to. All the stories that are in the work. Yeah. And she always says with a yellow highlighter. I remember it was with a purple fucking highlighter.

Yeah. And she would circle and you go, you got to put this in. You got to. All the stories that are in the book. Yeah.

But they didn't fit in with the Ramones. Yeah. Because I was, the first concept was to do a Didi book. Uh-huh. Jillian kept saying,

it's much bigger than that and it's, you know. So I just said, fuck it. Why don't you just do it with me? Yeah. You know, so that's how it came about.

And you guys were friends? Were you romantically involved? Are you romantic? What's going on? For five minutes. For five minutes. don't you just do it with me yeah you know so that's how it came and you guys were friends were you romantically involved are you romantic what's going on for five minutes and then you just sort of as danny says you have to get that out of the way good good good you got it out of the way obviously you're not crazy in the way that that would become a liability no no good no but uh all right So that's how the oral history is born. But you still had to go out and track all these people down and talk to them. I mean, right? And this was pre-internet. Yeah.

Right. Well, if you look at our day books from that, for this four-year period. Yeah. We were doing interviews around the clock. And we had to adjust everybody's schedule. I remember like Penny Arcade was flying to Italy in the morning. So we started at midnight and went to, I mean, I was collapsing at the end of the interview. I mean, so we really did a lot.

It's funny though, because like, she's a good example of someone that, you know, if you're not, no one would necessarily know Penny Arcade and her place in that whole thing if you guys hadn't pulled a lot of these people out of the shadows. I mean mean that was

the the amazing thing about the book for me was that how how much of a community despite whatever they may have thought it was like just out of necessity and that punk rock and i learned this again from mike watt that like punk was not what the style of music that is now associated with punk became it wasn't it wasn't that It was just a bunch of very creative people doing whatever the fuck they wanted to do. You know, busting it open. And that it all happened in the wake of, like I thought it was very,

again, I'm jumping all over the place, that you tracked, that like in my recollection of the book, that you were able to sort of do what Thomas Wolfe did. Is it Thomas Wolfe? Tom Wolfe. Tom Wolfe did with the acid test in the meeting of, you know, the psychedelics of California and the psychedelic community of New York, that there was a difference. And you guys were able to track through Warhol into Lou Reed and then into if I'm remembering correctly like

Bowie's first tour and how that impacted the... No, you know what the connection is there? What? John Cale produces the first Stooges record and Nico moves into the Funhouse in Detroit and gives everyone VD. That was the thing, I was like, Nico did that?

How could that lady from the record like it was one of those moments where like, oh, she was just full of VD and fucked all the Stooges. Nico's down marking her. She's down a notch. I don't think she fucked all the Stooges. No, she was just with Iggy. Oh, okay.

Well, I guess who didn't fuck Iggy, right? I was with Howie Pyro the other night, and you know, the famous DJ, and he's in D-Generation and he was in The Misfits and Danzig and I said oh I took a cab with Nico once

and he said I shot dope with her and he was always one-upping me Yeah totally Howie Howie Because Howie was on the scene

at age 14 Yeah I just like to me it's very odd and I still can't you know wrap my brain around it because as much drugs

as I did like I never like I wasn't part of the culture of brain around it because as much drugs as I did like I never like I wasn't part of the culture of shooting dope and it's either was I I was just a drunk right yeah I mean I smoked heroin I snorted it when it was good and like what was it in the late 80s when it was in New York where they realized that they could open up a market of kids if they just made it really good and snortable and And I'm sort of like, I guess it's time to try it. Finally, a nice way that I can do it without blood. Didn't like it.

Didn't take, thank God. You hate needles, right? Well, it's not that I hate them. It's just like I didn't want to develop that relationship. It seems so sordid and so private and so weird. But the thing that gets- And so medical. Medical, but like anything else, you figure it out if that's what you need.

Yeah. And like I used to see needles all over the place in my neighborhood, but I get the time of the punk thing is like, it must have just been like smoking in some level. There were people that did it and they do it together and they didn't mind watching other people do it. And it's a pretty horrible thing to watch. Yeah.

But it seemed like it was everywhere and it just leveled that whole fucking community. Richard Hell was the first one who shot a dope in front of me and it was like it was like oh wait a minute and he pulled out a drawer and just i was just like oh yeah you gotta do this before you leave the house this is it well they did yeah i know that's the weird thing and like i never like it but i know that it must have been everywhere yeah you know but uh but it sort of leveled that whole fucking world didn't it yeah most people got sober yeah yeah and then they got cancer yeah they did a lot of people do get sober like i'm real close with jerry stall and like he's been sober a long time yeah and but like you know when you really think about that life that those

guys lived it's like holy fuck fuck, that was crazy, man. So. All right. So how do you track all these cats down in what is it? Eighty seven? You wrote the book. I mean, no, no, no. Ninety one to we started. Yeah. Oh, you got there in 87. So like you did you have to sort of do the thing? Were you still in touch with everybody or were you like, I don't even know where that guy is? Yeah, I was actually, you know, and people would help out. Oh, I have his number. And they'd give it to you and you'd call them. And, you know, and out of those people,

like, who was your greatest resource, really? I mean, who was the thread? Danny. Danny Fields. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was what? He was a producer, right?

No, he was the editor of 16 Magazine. He worked for the record company. He's an A&R guy. Yeah, he signed the Stooges and the record company he's an ar guy yeah he signed the stooges and the mc5 on the same day was he involved with jim morris wasn't he yes he was a public he was the first publicist for the doors that's right i mean danny has had the most remarkable career in the history of careers yeah he's like the the the dark zealot exactly

yeah he got nico album deals after she left the uh velvet underground right danny has been so influential he he actually put together the modern lovers with uh jonathan richmond he's a hard guy to figure out jonathan oh jonathan richmond yeah i want to talk to him but like i think he's sort of locked in a thing he's a bricklayer or something i don't know what he's doing but it's very it's completely fitting however he handles his life

but there's a little bit of disconnect yeah disconnect but that first record was good oh yeah so Danny Fields

is he still alive oh yes and there's a new movie about him by Brendan Toler called Danny Says is it a doc yes

yeah I was just in London with him and he spoke at the British Library. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. There was a punk exhibition.

Oh, really? At the British Library. But all that punk happened after the fucking New York punk, didn't it? Yeah, but at least... Well, the Ramones came to England on July 4th, 1976. Yeah. And launched punk in England. That's...

It wasn't the Heartbreakers? No. Because, like, I heard that, like... The Heartbreakers got... wasn't the Heartbreakers? Because I heard that- The Heartbreakers got- Malcolm thought the Heartbreakers needed- I mean, Malcolm thought the Sex Pistols needed the Heartbreakers' credibility. Okay.

That's why they- Because he had managed the Dolls for a moment there. So he called up the Heartbreakers and said, come tour on the Anarchy in the UK tour. And most of the tour got canceled. Right, right, right. But I talked to, I'm trying to think who it was,

maybe Chrissy Hine or maybe Lemmy before he died about that tour of the Heartbreakers in England and people realizing like, oh fuck, there's a whole nother world now. Like in terms of how to handle rock music.

But the reason why we were so pissed off in New York at the English scene is they stole our scene and the music was also really good. Yeah. So the Sex Pistols really didn't need the heartbreak. It was just a great.

Right. You know. So you liked it. Yes. But grudgingly. Right. Grudgingly, you know. But it seemed like the New York scene was able to like there was more variety.

Yes. Yes. Like, you know, out of I guess the British punk scene scene, you know, comes the ska revival and some other stuff. And some of the more kind of gothy lyrical bands, you know, like, I guess, like. Joy Division. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The New York scene was really about art. Right.

And we thought punk was a funny, you know, we thought it was humorous. Like, ha, ha, punk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unlike British punk. When they saw the Ramones and read Punk Magazine, they took it seriously. It was like, you're kidding me. Oh, really? It's a religion.

Yeah, exactly. And that there was a... But, you know, that makes sense because of the social structure there. Yeah, exactly. That when you actually have a dialogue about class, if you're given a manifesto that you push up against it, even the old fucking aristocratic rock scene exactly they were like no it's a big fuck you to everybody oh that's cool but like you know when i think about david byrne and and um and tom verlaine and like you know like the the other thing about your

book that really got me was like um it's tricky man it's tricky when you you get older and you're sort of like you missed a chunk of time yeah so it's hard to like for it not to be some sort of not a nostalgia act but a kind of I don't know what it is but it there's like that's what surprised me about that D generation record they're not as old as the Stooges but like I'm like they still they seem to mean it like they're not something's not resolved yet I like that something's not resolved yet right like you know with most grown like that something's not resolved yet right because with most grown-ups if they've had some success and they're known for something they have a certain amount of self-worth they're like you don't feel

the urgency anymore yeah but then there are cats that are like that's still not not good yeah i'm with that i'm with them i'm unresolved i'm still unresolved. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's weird. It's because it's not even, it's not like we're searching for anything. It's just sort of like, you know, something. Still have issues. Well, yeah. Well, you've realized a big ripoff.

Like, you know, you, you know what I mean? Yes. I mean, it's like. Yes, we do. Either you're going to be sort of like, all right, I'm a grownup. I'm going to enjoy grownup things.

Or else you get to a certain age, you're like, this is fucking it. Yeah, I know. What the fuck? Really? We got to make it what we want to make it? Anyway. So that's punk rock.

President Obama talked about that articulately on this show. Oh, yeah. When he was like smoking with a leather jacket. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like sort of like I got to decide what I can do and who I am and what my limitations. Yeah.

I know there's an immaturity to it. Well, we're immature too. So with Lou Reed. Lou hated me. Lou hated me. Lou hated me. Why? You don't have to answer that.

Because we walked in to see the Ramones for the first time and Lou Reed was sitting there. And I went up to him and said, hey, we got to interview you. You know? Yeah. Because Holmstrom was playing fucking metal machine music in the punk dump all the, you know, that two-album noise, driving everything. Take that shit off.

You know, put on Vicious, the live version. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, put on Heroin, put on Sweet J. You know, anything but fucking metal machine music. Yeah. You know, put on heroin, put on sweet, you know, anything but fucking metal machines. Play the hits. Yeah, you know. So John said, yeah, who went up to him too.

I said, John, there's that guy you're always playing, you know. It was Lou. And I said, yeah, we got to interview you. You know, I just assumed like he jumped at it. We didn't know what we were doing. Yeah. You know. And John went up to him and said, yeah, we'll even put you on the cover.

And Lou Reed deadpannedanned your circulation must be fabulous what was great about that is holmstrom turned it into a cartoon because he asked he had you know john was a big this is for punk mad yeah yeah and he asked him what his favorite you know cartoonists were and he said walls wally wood and stuff like that he would draw them in the style of Wally Wood. It was very cool. It was very funny. And Lou loved the magazine and started hanging out with John. And I remember I came out of a blackout. It was Clive Davis's birthday, and we were sitting there with Kiss, Diana Ross, and all these. And Lou was sitting there talking to Holmstrom,

and I'm pulling on Holmstrom's sleeve going, let's go downtown. Let's stop hanging out with these old people. You know, let's go pick up chicks, man. What the fuck? You know, Lou was boring. And he got to feel that. He wouldn't even look at me.

And I'd be sitting right next to Holmstrom. I just got used to it. Oh, yeah. You were the nuisance. Yes, exactly. I was the kid. The attitude kid, yeah. You were the nuisance. Yes, exactly. I was the kid. The attitude kid. You're the fuck's attitude kid.

Yeah, exactly. So when you look at the book now, I mean, like, what do you guys feel about it? I mean, in terms of, do you feel like something's been lost? Do you think, like, in terms of what that all meant?

You know, how do you frame it for yourselves intellectually or emotionally now as grown-ups the book yeah i mean like just in terms of like being part of it like well he was he lived it yeah and you were you were part of the documenting of it yeah but do you is part of your lack of resolution the fact that that that as we move further away from the birth of rock and roll, everything is kind of fragmenting into content and garbage. No, I think we're both very proud of it because even if we didn't get everything emotionally, it feels accurate to me. Right. And I think the great thing about the book that everyone has overlooked, thank God.

Yeah. has overlooked thank god yeah and i'll mention it now and then we'll forget about it is that um for the first time history was taken out of the hands of the elite academics and people with a panasonic tape recorder yeah did it and did did it so well right that it's undeniably well right and when you in in terms of the structure of the book, which, like I said before, resonated with me, I mean, how did you track that? How did you decide to involve the MC5? Whose decision?

Legs. Yeah. Well, I just, it was, you know, it was, this happened. It makes sense. It's cause and effect, basically. You just follow the trail. And that's what you did.

Yeah, but when you got, put the queer theater and theater of the ridiculous, that was pretty remarkable. That wasn't obvious. Yeah, but we got that handed to us. Yeah, I know. What was that?

Like, I'm blanking. In the book, everybody becomes sort of a, the underground art scene was cooler than being a rock star. Right. For a minute. Yeah. Being an Andy Warhol's pork and John Vaccaro and Charles Ludlam had the theater of the

ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. And everybody had kind of, Patti Smith had done stuff with Sam Shepard. Yeah. And David Johansson and Jane County. So it was a crossover. Yeah. So we had, also the whole idea of where does glitter come from.

So we had to track physically. Literally. Literally where does glitter come and it started at the theater The Ridiculous. Oh really? And there was this girl Gina Bone who was doing something on theater and she had all these transcripts and she gave them to me. Said, I don't know if these will help you out legs right i was like yeah yeah yeah you know so so so that was just from you being there and connecting the dots around that scene and how they were all feeding each other i didn't know most of

this stuff we didn't know most of this we didn't know what we were doing did we no we just kind of made it up as we went along well you learn you learn. You know, it's good. Our only agenda or mission statement was to prove that punk had started in New York and not London. Yeah. But other than that, we got the story from the participants. Yeah. Well, that was the genius of it. It was some weird mixture of like whatever created the Warhol scene and then this infusion of Detroit. Right.

Right. Through the MC5. Yeah, yeah. And then Bowie coming in and producing both Lou and Iggy. Right. And saving Iggy's life. Yeah, saving, over and over again. Yeah, the guy's pretty sturdy.

I didn't know what the fuck to expect when he came over here. Who, Iggy? Yeah. Oh, yeah. How was he? Great. Yeah. It was very funny because like you know i

didn't i don't know him i don't know any of these people really and i you know i i was excited you know we had a tight time for some reason but you know uh one limo comes up his publicist gets out and he and she's like he's in the car behind me and i'm like well how is he where's he at is he lucid what what because i don't know and even though rollins had told me that there's a difference between jim and iggy yeah and you know when you talk to jim you talk into a very articulate very well his parents were college yeah you know no no yeah you know but i didn't know what kind of damage he'd done i think in your book was the first time i read about him rolling around in glass and everybody going what the fuck that was the other thing that is really i, now it's all coming back to me too, is that

I had not put the Stooges into perspective. I didn't know their story until I read your book. You know what? Either did I. We kept having to go back to Ann Arbor. The Ashtons were great. Kathy, Ron, and Scotty. Ron and Scotty, of course, were in the Stooges. But we kept having to go back to Ann Arbor over and over again because it was like, wait a minute, there's a disconnect here.

We need to get this. It was very frustrating. But also the thread was Danny Fields because he signed MC5 and Stooges and went on to the Ramones. Yeah. I don't know if the book

would have worked without Danny. Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, but like that whole, the connection between the MC5 and the Stooges, but also when you really think about you know, the attitude of New York punk rock, it sort of happens at that Iggy show in a way. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Definitely, yeah. That's the moment. Birth of it. That's the moment punk becomes punk. Right. When he cuts the glass. Right. And Alice Cooper took him to the hospital you know i didn't yes yeah he was like hey jim i think you know when i doctor when i first met alice yeah um he invited me and i came out to la and interviewed him yeah so you know i was i was like you know wayne and wayne's world i am not worthy yeah i was at some party and it turned around said legs do you know alice coop you know, Wayne and Wayne's world. I am not worthy. Yeah. I was at some party and it turned around and said, legs, do you know Alice Coop?

You know, and he said, of course I know. And I was just like, ah, sure. But he said to me, you know, we were kind of faking it. You know, we were teasing our hair and putting on our eye makeup. This too just were really it. You know, he said, and he kept saying, how's Jim? How's Iggy? Yeah.

You know, he really loved Iggy. Well, Alice is another guy that, like, with the connection of, you know, through Zappa and through whatever, however he came to be. Like, I just listened to one of the old records today because I was supposed to interview him. It didn't happen. But, you know, he was a real deal art rock guy. Yeah.

And he's, if you listen to his radio show yeah he knows everything about rock right but he's a real fucking artist those early records are fucking out there i know they're great they're great oh so so is love it to death and killer and schools out and oh yeah yeah billion dollar babies sure okay you know no it's not just the zappa stuff you snob oh, no. You snob. Well, I just associate him as sort of a theatrical hit maker, you know,

and I didn't really know that the old records. So like, you know, because those records will go back and listen to your love it to death. You're a killer in your schools. I will. I'm not, I'm a killer.

It's not. Okay. I just, I wasn't an Alice Cooper fan. Oh, there you go. Okay. That was like,

cause I come, I'm late to the party with everything. I mean, I grew up, the only access I had to weird music was this guy who worked at the record store

next to the bagel place I worked at in high school. It's always a guy at the record store. Of course it is. You know, and we've gotten so many people like,

he wrote down, the woman who wrote something in bust, she said, the guy wrote down please kill me on a piece of paper and gave it to her and said, go get this. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's guy wrote down, please kill me on a piece of paper and gave it to her and said,

go get this. Yeah, yeah. Well, I do that to people all the time. That's why I don't have my fucking copy. But he turned me on to fucking art music like Eno, The Residents, Fred Frith, John Hassel. So like I took, you know, Robert Fripp. I jumped a step.

Like I missed, I don't, like I still can't listen to King Crimson, but I knew who Fripp was. Yeah, right. Exactly I missed, I don't, like I still can't listen to King Crimson, but I knew who Fripp was. Yeah, right. Exactly, yeah. So I missed the punk part of it, but I was off into this other fucking world.

But anyway, so Iggy, so the publicist comes, then Iggy comes up and he gets out of the car and then he's got this tall woman with him, very tall.

And I walk up to him. I'm nervous. He's one of the guys that makes me nervous. Yeah. And I'm like, you need anything? I'll meet him at the bottom of the driveway. Do you need water or something?

He's like, I need to refresh. And I'm like, I don't know what that implies, what that entails. So then he comes up, and there's a bunch of them, people with him, and they're out there on the deck. And I'm like, well, we're going to go in there. He's like, all right. And then he just takes his shirt off and starts doing some weird tai chi-ish looking things he goes let's go so he sat there shirtless and and did the iggy thing but he was so fucking

his memories tight man oh yeah oh yeah he he knows everything some dudes are just genetically he's so articulate but he didn't shatter the shit like there's so many brain dead motherfuckers around and you're just like his is not it's not it's almost like when he's like the difference between iggy and jim is like two different bodies if you want to talk about being nervous yeah during the iggy interview you should talk to jillian oh i would have oh we just met at d roberti's he suggested it when was this uh well Well, 94. On First Avenue. Oh, yeah. And he came in with this celery green shirt

kind of unbuttoned to his belly button. And you could see the scars. You could see the Max's scars. Yeah, yeah. On the glass. I'd never had a crush on Iggy, but in person it was like,

I just didn't, it hadn't registered how good looking he is. It was like, whoa! Yeah't, it hadn't registered how good looking he is. It was like, whoa. Yeah. And then Legs keeps leaving to have a cigarette and I'm like, no, stay. She was tongue-tied.

I'm going to undress. If you leave, I'm going to do something weird. Well, I think that like that Iggy thing is like, you know, when you talk to these old British cats about, you know, like I just realized it in talking to you that like I've talked to, who have I talked to? Like Terry Reed, Richard Thompson, Lemmy. Is there anyone who was like, I don't know if Lemmy was there, but. John Cale.

Well, no, I talked to John Cale. about that night that Jimi Hendrix played that show in England because of what's his name his manager the keyboarder from the Animals had set up that show and invited all those motherfuckers

and it just it changed music because all those cats all those blues dudes and all you know Clapton, The Who, Zeppelin they were all part of they're all sort of around

so now they gotta go see the new guy and it was just sort of like what the fuck just happened and music changed forever. Yeah. Terry Reed told the best story. He's at that gig.

And he said he always went to that pub anyway. So he's in the back. And so everyone's there. You know, like all the, you know, everyone, Paige, you know, Clap. They're all there. And he said the music, you know, he opened with Wild Thing and just turned it inside out. And then out of the crowd, Brian Jones comes, you know, he's like sweating and he's coming out of the crowd and he walks up to Terry Reed and he says,

it's horrible up there, the flooding. And Terry Reed's like, what are you talking about? It's like the water. It's like, it's horrible. And Terry Reed's like, what are you talking about? It's like all the guitar players are crying. Because like Brian is one of those guys, Brian Jones, where you don't, you don't really have a sense of a guys Brian Jones where you don't

you don't really have a sense of a personality no you don't because you just know that he was just like you know maybe a genius druggie you know guy who whatever

but like to know that he was that witty made me very happy yeah who'd you find when you guys were who was like the funniest most kind of like

provocative you know raconteur of the crew that you dealt with. Lee Childers was one of them. Who's he? He was a photographer. Photographer.

Yeah. He lived with Iggy in the Hollywood Hills. Remember him? Yeah. But you know what? I forget that's from your book where Larry the Stooge from the Three Stooges. Yes, right. Yes.

Yeah. Which Stooge went over to visit Larry? Ron Ashton. Ron Ashton would go visit Larry. Yeah. Isn't that the sweetest story? It's the greatest story because it's so odd. I know.

I know. And he was writing. And the doctor said to Ronnie, we're so glad you come to visit. It was Larry, right? Yeah. Yes. It was Larry Fine from the Three Stooges. He'd go to the old folks, the celebrity old folks home, and visit them regularly?

Yeah. But he had had a stroke, and before Ronnie started visiting him, he couldn't really speak. Right. And then Ronnie, through talking to Ronnie, he started talking again. So this is- Yeah. Isn't that amazing? It's amazing.

So what is that, 71, 69? Which one? 71? They were in the house somewhere in there 73 74 so they're running this house they're partying yeah and what compels ron ashton to go over to see larry stooge fan well because he would he would say obsessed with the stooge is that why they named it yes yes oh yeah oh yeah he was the one who was obsessed yeah yeah yeah he was it's so beautiful that they're leaving this party mansion yeah where they're just squandering their record deal money

or whatever the fuck is happening and he's going over there it was so sweet that's ronnie's whole thing such degradation remember he says that over and over we used to call each other we would talk in the language of the book so i just called jillian up and go she go hello and i go such degradation so who are the bands like you know obviously this whole scene you know you know kind of spawned you know modern rock and roll in a lot of ways you know this and yeah whatever the british the british scene was doing but but the bands that really that that still exist out of it or that really became huge were who like when you think about like we're talking no no no one no one in the book no one in the that's why jillian i kept saying she kept

saying this book's gonna sell i said i didn't i thought people would like it oh the great thing about the book is you don't have to give a shit about any of it exactly and that like you know when you get into it you're like what there's always these guys you know that that like are like standing behind any genius going like that motherfucker stole my shit yes like you know like if there's a genius there's a bitter guy yes yes like you know rambling jack and bob dylan and joe antis and lenny bruce but i always felt like tom like there's no david byrne without tom berlain like guitar wise that. For some reason, I thought that. You don't have to confirm it or not. That Verlaine was the bitter guy?

Not the bitter guy, but clearly David took it in. Because I don't know what the timeline is, but if you listen to Marky Moon and you listen to his guitar playing, it's fucking astounding. Yeah. And there were guys that came out of that, and obviously they're geniuses and were able to to move into other worlds you know no one's get stuck the guys who really make a an imprint a lot of times are the ones that can evolve but it seemed to me that that david was and i talked to him was a bit of a a sponge and absorbed a lot of stuff and but like obviously a real fucking genius but were you there for there you saw them early

on i saw them the second i went to see the ramones we interviewed lou reed i went back to cbs said this place is great i'm going back i went back by myself and saw the talking heads the next night as a three piece and they were great like 76 77 75 really yeah when there were three pieces i can't even imagine that fucking place because I was in CB. I wore the talking hats and the next one's called 1, 2, 3, Red Light.

Yeah. But it was so different, right? Everything was so fucking different. Well, it was so accessible. That's what was, there was no velvet ropes. There was no bodyguards. There was no security.

There was none of this crap that there is today. But you mean all the music was so different. Yeah. It's incredible that it'd be all paired together in one. Well, that's why we thought punk. Yeah. It was just wacky. An attitude. Yeah. And I didn't realize that the New York Dolls were really

before everybody on that scene. Oh, yeah. The Dolls were already rock stars. Right. You know. In that scene. Yeah. David Johansson and Johnny Thunders the dolls were already rock stars right you know in that scene yeah yeah david johansson and johnny thunders they were already you know they figured it out yeah they figured out how to hot rod what was left of the 60s yes into something fucking new and wild yeah and they were fun hanging out with david johansson it's like a burlesque show almost yes yes exactly yeah he seems like a fun guy do you still talk to him, Johansson, or what?

No. Uh-huh. I've only met him once. I don't know him. Uh-huh. Okay. No, David kind of turned bitter after he got sober. Oh, yeah.

Which happens to a lot of people, as you know. Really? It's supposed to go the other way. Yeah, I know. If you work it right. Yes, if you work it right. You do the work. You do the work.

You're supposed to uh be happy joyous and free they say yes uh-huh i i think we have a girlfriend and his wife i used to date oh that doesn't you don't want to yeah you don't want to yeah yeah that stuff going on well you know as you get older and you know if you're untethered for long enough you got a lot of eskimo brothers out there yes eskimo brothers i love that i have i have many eskimo brothers out there. Yes. Eskimo brothers. I love that. I have many Eskimo brothers. We rub noses. It's kind of surprising. It's kind of surprising.

You're like, oh, you did? Oh, shit. So I guess we're attached somehow. But you know what? I have to say something. Yeah. You know, my best friend who runs our website, Tom Hearn, goes, you know, Mark Maron's always referencing Please Kill Me.

You should. I said, we're on this tour. Yeah. And I said, well on this tour and I said well call the office you know we have this publicity guy

Jonathan Marder I said call the office you suggested I'm you know I'm tired of this bullshit so we did and then you said yes

so it was kind of like oh that'll be fun I tell you I mean I'm glad that I got the email so thank him for me I will thanks for talking to me

thanks Tommy thanks Tommy and like yeah I love the book and I hope it'll live forever it's an important book to thank him for me. I will. Thanks for talking to me. Thanks, Tommy. That was fun. Thanks, Tommy. And like, yeah, I love the book and I hope it'll live forever. It's an important book. Yeah. And a fun book.

And it's a brain blower, you know, historically and just musically because there's so many people that there's so much stuff out there that, you know, no one can put anything into context and a lot of things get missed.

Right. And it's one of those books where not unlike any book on music of the past, that if it's not mainstream, and this is what happened to me, is that there's no late to the party with music because it exists forever. Exactly. So when you enter the world, it's all new. And that's the experience I had with it. I'm like, I didn't know any of this. Either did we.

And it changed everything. and that's the experience I had with them. Like, I didn't know any of this. Either did we. And it's fucking, it changed everything, you know? And now, like, there's a lot of stuff I listen to, and there's a lot of stuff I can source and reference now. And also just the experience of listening to that music. Did you get that fucking Ork record set from Numero? No, not yet. Is it good? Holy fuck. Really?

It's so good. I gave him our Terry Ork interview for that. You did what? Oh, you did it for the box? We had the only Terry. That's when our Terry Ork interview for that. You did what? Oh, you did it for the box? We had the only Terry. That's when Jillian came up with the title. Yes. Because we went to San Diego.

Terry had been- Just gotten out of jail. He had just gotten out of jail. He's that guy from Work Records? Yes. He was Terry Ork. He's not alive anymore? No, no.

And he died very soon after that. Well, what was the story with that label? Well, he put out Piss Factory. Patti Smith. Patti Smith. He put out Blank Generation, which is the best version of the Blank Generation.

I have it. Yeah. And he put out tons of stuff. You know, he was a little gay guy who, you knew Terry. Yeah, he was around. Terry was great. Terry was great, you know?

Yeah. And he'd always buy you a beer. Yeah. Come on, Terry. You got it. Now go away, legs. You know? Yeah. And he'd always buy you a beer. Yeah. I mean, Terry, but I mean, come on, Terry, you got it. Now go away, legs, you know. He was great.

Yeah. And these guys in Chicago, who were they? I don't know, nice guys. Nice guys. I can't remember their names. Yeah. They told me, and we have the only Terry Ork interview. We did them for a few hours.

A few hours, yeah. Yeah. It was interesting because he'd also been involved. He was older. Yeah. So he'd been involved in like the Southern California LSD scene.

Oh, Brotherhood of Infernal Love. And then came to New York for the Warhol scene too. Right. Yeah. Yeah, he was a zealot too. Yeah. Well, because I think

there's some Alex Chilton on there and that period of Chilton is sort of an interesting period. And there's like a lot of Richard Howell and some Verlaine and I think Cheetah Chrome maybe is on there yes yes yes but it's like the product the the the sound of it i think was very important that it was is clean it was you know the production was like really let the the music be yeah and it was really it's a great fucking box dude and you can get it on vinyl also there's for some reason i associate you not

not necessarily in friendship but uh you know i interviewed toshis oh yeah yeah he introduced me and my husband nick did yeah yeah he's a he's something he's something he is so smart yeah i know yeah he's mind-blowing yeah and i he was one he i was nervous about that yeah i would be too because he's hard he's not an easy access. No. And he's hard to find. Like I was in New York and I had to, you know, you got to track him down through this email address. You don't know if he's going to show up and he comes. It's like this little guy.

You get him going. If you get him worked up, which doesn't take much, he'll go. Yeah, I got to read that. There's a new book I want to read. The Jesus book I got to read. Yeah, I haven't read that yet. Well, that's another like between Please Kill Me and fucking Dino. Oh, Dino.

What a great book. It's a fucking great book. Yeah, great book. Well, I read the Jerry Lee Lewis, the Hellfire book. Oh, yeah, that's great. The Sonny Liston book is great. I think Hellfire is the best rock and roll book ever written. I think you might be right.

It's almost like this prayer. Yeah, it's a prayer. And also, there's a battle between good and evil. He's first cousin of Jerry ever written. I think you might be right. It's almost like this prayer. Yeah, it's a prayer. And also there's a battle between good and evil. He's first cousin to Jerry Falwell. I know. Yeah, but he also shows up at Elvis Presley's and is drunk and smashes into the front gate. You're not the king.

I'm the king. Fuck you. I know, I got to reread that. Yeah, I know. All right, well, good luck with the resurrection. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I want a copy. Oh, yeah, we'll send you one. All right, deal. All right, well, good luck with the resurrection. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I want a copy.

Oh, yeah, we'll send you one. All right, deal. All right. All right. You can go listen to some punk rock records. Get energized. All right, well, thanks for listening. I enjoyed talking to them.

I like old guys that still smoke. I don't know why. It's not smart, but I do. It's not smart to do it, but if that's the way you want to go out, do it, I guess. Anyway, go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs.

I will play guitar for those of you who are horribly disappointed. Next time, I gotta go I gotta go act as we all do Boomer Lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

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