WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 761 - Michael Shannon

Episode Date: November 20, 2016

Michael Shannon cuts a pretty intimidating figure on stage and screen. The combination of his Southern upbringing and his early-career immersion into the Chicago theater scene probably accounts for much of his intensity. Michael and Marc talk about his experiences with creators like Tracy Letts, William Friedkin, and Jeff Nichols, and they delve into what occupies Michael's mind when he's not acting. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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you've downloaded you're streaming whatever you're doing doing, it's me. I'm here. I'm here in your head. How's it going? Today on the show, actor Michael Shannon. You've seen him in everything. Yeah, Boardwalk Empire, the movie based on the play Bug. He was in Revolutionary Road. on the play bug he was in a revolutionary road he was in we'll talk about what he was in but he's he's an intense dude he generally thought of as a heavy scary but uh but i had a very beautiful thoughtful conversation with the guy and believe me i was nervous i didn't know if he would talk he doesn't seem like the guy you watch him on on screen. It's like, does that guy talk? Well, he does. And he's a real actor with a real sweet, intense story about getting to where he is and his thoughts on things.

It's been, what, however long it's been since I told you i took the twitter off my phone now i mean some of you were you know quick to jump on me when i go on on my computer and say like i thought you couldn't stay away huh i did baby steps man baby steps but i will say this yeah i've been off it for a few days like what is i don't know however long it's been four or five days. I'm halfway through a novel. I'm looking at people, and I'm looking at them hard, and I'm thinking about things at the pace that my brain naturally operates on. And it's a welcomed, it's not even a distraction. It's a fucking revelation. You don't realize how much your brains get zapped, you know? I had this fantasy that that twitter and facebook both

decided to take a hiatus they just shut them off they they said they shut them off for two weeks they just said yeah we just said we're gonna we gotta retool some shit whatever excuse they're privately owned companies they can do whatever they want and they just shut down and then all of a sudden you're like ah you're sitting there fidgeting you're like what i'm down well i'm all alone i'm i'm disconnected from the shit storm what do i gotta do hey who's that guy uh that's the guy that lives across the street i wonder what i wonder what he's doing i think I need to talk to him in person. I got to, I don't even, do I know how to do that anymore? Hey, hey man, you all right?

You all right? Are we all right? What are you going to do? How are you feeling about it? Yeah, can I, do you want to have some coffee or something? What are you working on your, you need any help with that? are you doing you putting up a what is that is that a a you building a bunker oh yeah i can help out i guess oh maybe i should buy some stuff oh man it's good to see you i kind of don't want to leave yet i'll tell you man i just started

reading this book and it's fucking genius like it's like it's been a long time to you know for me to just focus on a fucking novel and not drift i mean i i realized when i started reading the book that i i've always had that problem where i'll just read and my brain's doing another thing but the eyes are reading brains not registered and i. I'm like, oh shit, I got to go back three pages because I was winning something in my head. But I started reading The Sellout by Paul Beatty and it happens to be one of the funniest, most genius pieces of satire

I've ever fucking laid my hands on. I'd love to talk to him and i it's a hard book to even explain it is so uh lyrically and uh language wise just so elaborate and so fucking dense and rich and hilarious it just fucks with language and it fucks with his it's i don't even know how to explain the book it sort of turns the black experience inside out it's just an ongoing firework display of language and imagery and it's fucking hilarious and poignant and resonant and i'm only halfway through and i can't fucking put it down but i'm just the only reason that i made time to read it because i

usually read non-fiction my buddy sam lipsight you know recommended it it's elaborate it is it there it's no fucking holds barred and it just turns it all inside out and dances it's about a guy that uh sort of through a series of events, a black dude through a series of events, finds himself almost involuntarily having a slave and trying to bring back a urban farm plot where he grew up in L.A. Out there in, I guess it's by by south central it's in that area and i know i know it sounds crazy and it sounds wrong and it it certainly is crazy but it's certainly wrong but it's wrong for all the right reasons it is a it is a power punch of of literary genius. What a fucking treat. What a fucking treat to read and fill your brain with something amazing

that's provocative. And to talk to people. Yeah. Turn it off. Turn it off. A lot of it's an illusion. I do also want to say, I had a whirlwind cross-country trek.

I got back from Nashville, Tennessee this morning. I performed there last night at the TPAC Center at the James K. Polk Theater. And it was fucking spectacular. Great audience. Got about 900 people out. And I tell you, man, and people who listen to this show know this that you know over the years you know i've developed a fairly uh loving relationship with the south you know having been sort of uh narrow-minded about it in the past

you know i started going down there different parts uh and just seeing that part of the country and and i really i really have i always have a a beautiful time down there and i always have very nice people uh come out and and i always love eating down there i love the way the place looks but you know you know, going down there, this is the first trip I've made. Post-election, I was nervous. I'm nervous anyways. And, you know, I'm flying on Southwest. Not great, but good, you know, if you do the early check-in thing.

And I had that one first-class seat in Southwest where, you know, by the door, there's one seat that doesn't have a seat in front of it. And somehow I managed even being A36 to get that seat. So I was like, things are working out. All right. As we're flying in man, and we're coming into Tennessee, you know, I'm looking out and I see the fall colors and I see all that dense, you know, Southern land. And I'm like, Hey man, that's, that doesn't look like Twitter. That looks like America, and I'm going to perform in a great old city. I stayed at a beautiful hotel right across from the venue. This kid opened for me, local guy, who my buddy Nate Bargatze recommended,

Josh Wagner, and I'd never met him before, young dude, local. Nate picked me up at the airport, eased me into it, quelled my nervousness. I love Nate, and we got to talking. And we went and had some lunch, and then I just sort of locked in, and I go to the venue. My buddy Mike Binder, who I've talked to on this show, comedian from the old days, but a very busy movie and television director and novel writer. He happened to be in town. He's directing episodes of the show Nashville. And he came down and I went over to the

venue. It was a big, beautiful venue. And I didn't really know what to do or how to talk. Sometimes that happens to me. I know you doubt that. But, you know, I usually have to speak my feelings and speak my mind and speak my fears and speak my anger in a relative degree so it doesn't seem detached or strident or bizarre. But I do have feelings. And, you know, Americans are going to have feelings and you know we yeah americans are gonna have feelings and feelings are running hot obviously you know not everyone who voted for trump is a racist misogynist nutbag but but there are those within it and i know we're all americans and i get that

but there just comes the point where where even dudes I know who are Republican and vote a party line or whatever, you're like, all right, so okay, you did that. I understand what our relationship is now.

It's troubling, but I've known you a long time. And then if they're like, come on, man, we're all Americans. This shit will sort itself out. Come on, we all love Tom Petty. We all love Tom Petty.

We like barbecue. You know? I mean, I like a burrito occasionally. You do too, right? Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, so let's just be Americans and work through this together. I'd like to believe that's possible.

But what about that guy? What? That dude? He likes Tom Petty and bur and burritos yeah but he thinks all muslims are terrorists and he doesn't think gay people should get married i know man but i mean you know he's still yeah he likes burritos he likes burritos and tom petty i listen to tom petty with that guy yeah i know but still like it's you know it seems to be a little wrong-minded ah come on we We're all Americans.

He likes Tom Petty. Yeah, but he hates gay people. So, you know, Tom Petty, come on. Rock and roll, bro. I don't know if Tom Petty can bridge that gap, but I understand where you're coming from. And there's going to be struggle. But performing in Nashville was just great you know i did about an hour and a half josh wagner did great i got up there and i talked about where i was at in that moment and like

something actually happened for me down there that i don't think has ever really happened. And I don't know why it happened. I guess it was a matter of time, but there was no, absolutely no distance between me and that audience and me in that space. Like there's, there's times in your life where whatever it is you do for work, however long you've worked hard to do it, if you get the opportunity to do it and you love your work, something just happens. And if you're lucky and you get into a zone where there's no self-consciousness, there's no moment of, oh no, what's going to, you know, or am I doing okay? There's just no insecurity. There's no self-consciousness. You're just, you know, kind of purely in the moment and present and moving through something at your own time and at your own speed

and that happened there like I was on stage and I knew I was in front of 800 people I knew they were listening I knew they were laughing and I had no there was no sort of self-consciousness I was just in it and I was in it all the way through, and it was at my own pace, my own speed, and I was free with my thoughts and the jokes and everything, but it was just so whole. It was almost like a moment. I know Carnegie Hall happened, but I kind of had to fight my way into being present there,

and maybe it was that experience. Maybe it was just the appreciation and immediacy of what's happening. Maybe it has something to do with not being on Twitter and then realizing that that doesn't represent the best of people or all of people in any way. And just dealing with the nice people at the hotel, nice people at the venue, beautiful people in the audience, seeing some comic friends down there, having some nice food. I didn't eat the hot chicken. I heated my own concerns about having a, you know, just my intestines full of burning spices on a four hour plane ride. You know, I'm glad I did not do that.

But again, people hanging out with people. Scott, look him right in the face. It's better if you're looking at someone right in the face. So my guest, Michael Shannon, as I said, was a little intimidated just by my projection of what he might be like. And it was a pretty intense, pretty great conversation. He's in a few new movies. Nocturnal Animals opens this Wednesday, November 23rd. He's also in the film Loving, which is now playing.

And this is me and Michael. you need with Uber Eats? Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Do you live in town? I live in New York City. So you're just here for a little while? Yeah, I got here on Wednesday. Yeah?

Yeah. Do you like coming out here? I do. You know, I lived out here for a couple years. I came out here in 99. Yeah? I was here for a couple years, so I have some nostalgia for it. Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In 99? You've been at it a long time. Yeah, I guess I got cranking about 25 years ago. It's wild to think about that, isn't it? It is, although, you know, it seems like a short period of time in comparison to some of the other actors that I admire. Look at somebody like I saw Sir Ben Kingsley last night. You did?

Yeah. Where at? The Governor's Awards. Uh-huh. Yeah. They were giving honorary lifetime awards to people. Jackie Chan was there. He won an award.

And Ben got one too? Ben was presenting. Had you met, too? Ben was presenting. Had you met him before? Ben? No. I just saw him give the speech. I didn't get to actually meet him. I just saw him in something.

Oh, I re-watched The Sopranos. Oh, is he in there? And he had that one part as himself when Imperioli goes to L.A. to talk to Ben Kingsley's agent. Oh, wow. Yeah, and he just plays himself, a heightened version, obviously. He's that much of an asshole. I didn't really watch The Sopranos,

which is kind of, I guess I should be embarrassed about because I worked with all those guys on Boardwalk, but I never... Why not? I don't know. I don't... I very rarely watch TV uh-huh although one of my favorite shows was dr cats which you were yeah i did a couple episodes of those yeah that's squiggle there's

my dr cats picture right up there oh my god i'm actually in awe how old were you, though? You must have been like a kid. Well, I didn't watch them when they were airing. I have them all on DVD. Oh, you just like it? Yeah. There was a period with me and my girlfriend, we would watch it pretty much every night before we went to bed. Really?

We'd watch a couple episodes. Yeah? Yeah. He's got a great timing, Jonathan. Yeah, and that H. John Benjamin. Oh, he's funny, man. Holyathan yeah and that h john benjamin oh he's funny man so funny yeah still really funny yeah yeah he's got a new yeah some new show he's always got something going on he's hilarious he's a hilarious guy and you you don't but you don't do a lot of comedies do you i mean i tend to find uh comedic uh elements in in things that I do that may be considered dramatic.

Well, I saw Elvis and Nixon. There's an example, I guess, yeah. I think that's definitely a comedy. Yeah, it's kind of all over the place. I mean, at the end of the day, it's kind of trying to recreate one of the stranger events in United States history, I would say. I thought it was pretty amazing. I thought that to take on Elvis is no easy feat. Oh, it's horrifying.

I didn't think it was a good idea. It was this producer, Holly Wiersma, I had worked with her on Bug. Every once in a while she'd say, you should really play Elvis. Her husband at the time cassian cassian's brother carrie elway's actor he was uh i know that guy yeah yeah he was princess bride exactly yeah yeah he was writing this script about elvis and nixon he said and holly kept saying you

got to do it you got to do it and i was like yeah i you know i just didn't feel comfortable because i i didn't really know a lot about Elvis yeah she talked me into it I'm really glad I did it why? because Elvis is a fascinating person beyond just the

icon, cultural icon he is you know in the movie you see his relationship with a fellow, Jerry Schilling, who was one of his best friends. That's a real relationship. That's real, yeah. And Jerry, I met Jerry and spent a lot of time with Jerry,

and Jerry and I went to Memphis, and he showed me all the things you would want to see if you were playing Elvis. And Jerry kind of gave me his blessing and said he was very interested to see what I was going to do. He believed that I would maybe go beyond the surface, the caricature of it. Because, you know, he has a lot of love for his friend.

He misses his friend, and he thinks his friend Elvis is kind of a misunderstood human being. Oh, yeah? Yeah. In what way specifically? Well, he says Elvis died of a broken heart. Elvis was a very serious artist. He really loved acting, and he wanted to be taken more seriously as an actor. He got caught up in a lot of contracts and things.

He wound up doing things that other people wanted him to do. And if he was left to his own devices, he might have pursued some different paths. He was a very spiritual person. Yeah. I would have never guessed in a million years, but his favorite book was Siddhartha, which I had actually never read, but because I found that piece of information,

I said, well, I guess I should read Siddhartha. I never read it. Yeah. How was it? It's beautiful, but half the time as I said, well, I guess I should read Sid Harth. I never read it. Yeah. How was it? It's beautiful. But I, you know, half the time as I was reading it, I just imagined Elvis, like, sitting in a chair reading this book, and

it kind of blew my mind. But, you know, he was always looking for peace. He wanted peace, and you know, Jerry said, even though he was one of Elvis' best friends, he could only understand Elvis up to a certain point because Elvis is a very lonely thing to be. There's nobody else that really can comprehend what it was.

Anyway, he said, I think you might be able to pull it off. And how close were the events? Because I watched it on the plane, and I like Elvis like everybody else, but both you and Kevin Spacey somehow were able to transcend caricature and get into the humanity of these guys. I mean, one thing you don't want to do, having not any real memory of either of them. Because I'm 53 and I was a kid. But we've been taught that you're not supposed to look at Nixon as a human being.

And then you start to think, well, I never even thought about the humanity of Elvis. Right. And you both were able to do that in a fairly warm and comedic way. Oh, thanks. Yeah, it's fascinating because it's a real event. It really happened. And yet the conversation between Elvis and Nixon when they were alone in that room, nobody knows what they talked about. So that's all fictionalized.

Yeah, there's no document of that. There's no recording of that. How long did it go on for? You know, it wasn't too lengthy. It was a strange thing for the president to do during office hours, so it couldn't be like an all-day-long thing. But probably a little bit longer than it is in the movie. But it's just a really unusual story.

It's very funny. I'm glad I did it. Yeah, it was good. And Spacey, I thought, acted the shit out of that thing. Yeah, he was really impressive, particularly because he did his whole part in five days. Uh-huh. And we started with the oval.

We started basically with the end, with the meeting between us, which is kind of crazy sometimes how you have to do that. The first day of shooting, you're jumping into the climatic scene of the movie. You're like, well, I don't even know what I'm doing yet, and here we are. But he was so prepared and really gracious and easy to work with. I was nervous. I had never worked with him.

Were you a fan? Oh, yeah. He's a good actor. Yeah, he's been around. He's been killing it for a long time now. Now, where did you grow up? I was born in Lexington, Kentucky. Horse country. Sort of in Lexington, Kentucky. Horse country.

Sort of, kind of, yeah. On the outskirts of Lexington are a lot of beautiful horse farms. And, of course, we have the Keeneland Racetrack, which I prefer to Churchill Downs. Yeah. Secretly. Well, not secretly, no. Did you go there a lot? We would go there sometimes they had a real

good uh breakfast you get there so you go on the weekends and uh the whole family get your biscuits and your eggs and then you watch a couple of races yeah i mean my mom it would be with like my mom and maybe some of my younger siblings um how many you got? Well, with my mom, she had me, and then she had two girls and a boy after me with some other dude, not my father,

this guy, Big Mike, is what we called him, because I was Little Mike, I guess. Big Mike. Big Mike, yeah. Sounds a little ominous. Was he an all right guy? Jeez Louise.

We weren't the best of buddies, but I sure do love those kids. Yeah. So it wasn't all bad, I guess. And then my dad had two daughters before he met my mom. Oh, wow. So I guess I have four sisters and a brother. And your dad lived somewhere else? Well, yeah, when I was very young, my dad moved to Chicago,

which is how I eventually wound up in Chicago. Great city. Yeah, I think so, too. It certainly was a great city to start acting in. So you would go back and forth? Yeah, you know, like summer break, Christmas break, all that kind of thing. And then when I started high school, I actually went up to live with my dad for a couple of years. That was a resolution to the Big Mike problem.

Yeah. That was a resolution to the Big Mike problem. Yeah. Well, actually, Big Mike had resolved himself by that point. That unfortunately made things even more hinky. But yeah, I went up and lived with my dad, and then I just started going down into the city and auditioning for plays and stuff. And what did your old man do?

My father was a CPA and a professor. He had a PhD in finance and he taught at DePaul University for, I think, almost 30 years. Is that in Chicago? Yeah. Yeah? So were you on campus a lot? Well, my dad really wanted me to go to DePaul because he was tenured and all his kids could go there for free.

Yeah. And they have a really great theater school there. It's kind of renowned. But by that point, I had already started doing theater in the city, and I didn't understand why I would go to college if I was already doing what i wanted to be doing and you were learning on your own terms yeah yeah definitely i mean it was this was the early 90s and it was a great time in the city there were so many talented people

steppenwolf company i i worked with them a little bit, but this was kind of, because Steppenwolf really created the Chicago theater scene to a large degree. And that had already been going for a while? Yeah, but they had been going for a while, and then, you know, back in the early 90s, I mean, there were like, seemed like 200 companies in Chicago. Really? Yeah. How old were you, like 20? I did my first play in Chicago when I was 16. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah.

In what theater? Well, it was actually on the outskirts. It was in the Burbs. It was a place called Illinois Theater Center, appropriately. And you just went out for it and got cast? Yeah. In what show? It's a really amazing play, appropriately. And you just went out for it and got cast? Yeah. In what show? It's a really amazing play, actually. It's called

Winter Set by a writer Maxwell Anderson. He wrote Key Largo as well. The movie? Or the play? The play, yeah. You'd be an old guy if you wrote the movie. Well, yeah. I think the play is the source material

for the movie that they made. So he was an old dude? Yeah, this was about, you know the Italian anarchist Sacco and Vincenzi? Yes. So what this play is is imagining one of their sons trying to get justice after his father's been executed. He's kind of, now he's an orphan.

Yeah. Set in like, what, the 30s or something? Yeah, yeah. It's written in blank verse. Oh, really? Yeah, it's really unusual. It's funny, because I actually, I found a copy of it recently. I was thumbing through it, seeing if I could remember any of it.

Yeah. It's been such a long time. And? It wasn't coming back to me. I actually knew these lines once upon a time. How did it read to you? It's

very unique. It's not like anything else you've read. Some people should do it. So I did that play and then I did a play a little bit closer to the city. What was that one? It was two one-acts by Howard Corder, who ironically wound up being one of the main writers

on Boardwalk Empire. Really? Yeah, so it was kind of wild. Was he involved in the production? No, no, no. This was a little tiny theater you would have never heard of. But yeah, these two plays called Fun and Nobody. And the first play, Fun, is about these two kids who ditch school one day

and they get in all kinds of trouble. And then the second play, Nobody, is about the father of one of the kids who loses his job and kind of goes off the rails. And my father was played by a fellow named Tracy Letts, who has become one of the more significant people in my life, at least professionally. the more significant people in my life at least professionally um but he was like the bee's knees at the time in chicago was like tracy letts the best actor and he was playing my dad even though he was only nine he's only nine years older than me and that was a that so that was sort of a big theater break in a way yeah it was yeah it was yeah and meeting him you know obviously led to some because he started writing and he wrote a couple of plays that I did. Bug.

Kind of changed my life. Yeah, Bug and Killer Joe. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Both of those. I saw both of those. Oh, really? Not in the theater, but in the films.

Oh, you saw the films, yeah. Well, I talked to Friedkin in here. Oh, did you? For a couple hours. Billy. Yeah. Oh, I love Billy. Oh, man.

I haven't seen him in a while yeah you should call him yeah it's funny i don't even know if i have his number but uh yeah and killer joe i i originated the part that emile hirsch plays in the movie oh yeah yeah yeah i did that part 400 times really so it had all in chicago Well it started in Chicago in this little theater, the same theater we did Fun and Nobody in, it started there and it was a little tiny theater, couldn't get more than 40 people in there. So we wound up doing it for like eight months doing the play there and then and then we went to the Edinburgh Festival in Scotland and we wound up doing it in London.

And then eventually wound up doing it in New York. And how old were you then? When I did it in New York? Just like when that started. Oh, when that started. I think when Killer Joe opened, I was 19, maybe. And so you were just living in Chicago, and you had some good breaks, and you were delivering as an actor. What was the life like, though? Were you a tormented dude?

Were you banging your head against the wall? What model of... Because these are dense plays. You seem like a thoughtful guy. So I have to say, you have to think for this stuff to resonate with you, you have to have a certain amount of darkness in your own soul. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I had some ammo back then. You know, I had gone through a lot the first 18 years of my life, so I had some stuff to get off my chest, I guess.

And it worked? Well, nothing ever really works. There's no solution. But you got good. Yeah. That's one thing. Yeah, that helps. You honed the craft, at least.

Yeah, and I got to the point where people would pay me to do it, which is a big hurdle. So do you stay in touch with Letts? Oh, yeah, we were just, we had a lovely little texting conversation the other morning. Yeah, I mean, we're hardly ever in the same place at the same time, but, yeah, he's one of my best friends. And he was a Steppenwolf guy, right?

He's definitely very much a Steppenwolf guy right now. Yeah, he's joined the company, and they do his plays. And they're doing one of his plays this season, I think, a brand new play of his. But he's also worked with a lot of other people, too. Oh, he's acting now, too. I think I saw him in that new show, Divorce. Yeah, he's in Divorce.

He's great. He's been in a lot of great movies this last season, too. Wiener Dog, Christine, Indignation. Which is cool because he, when I first came out to L.A., he was living here, and he couldn't get arrested. He was he was like well and it was hard for him because he was in chicago he's kind of a legend for his stage work and but that's the thing about la is you can you can be great and come out here

and just kind of fly into the window it's like yeah barton fink yeah it's been going on for every every for every for years. Yeah, right? Like in Chicago, though, were you going to theater? I mean, were you going to? Oh, yeah. I mean, it was my life. I see theater, do theater. I'd do it anywhere, see it anywhere. I mean, I started a little theater company,

did plays in the basements of coffee houses and anywhere you could put some folding chairs and a couple of clamp lights. And I wasn't terribly ambitious about it. I didn't have an agenda to kind of become a star or anything. I just loved doing it. Being in it?

Yeah. It was like film wasn't really the interest. I mean, I loved movies, too. I would go see movies all the time. We have some really beautiful theater in Chicago, the Music Box Theater. Yeah. I would go there all the time.

But it didn't bother me. I wasn't pining to like you know a lot of my friends are like i'm used tracy as an example just now uh would would say i gotta try la i gotta try and make some money at this stuff you know i can't live like this anymore and and uh and then they would come out of here and struggle. Get beat up. And I was like, I'm not doing that. I know I'm not rich, but I'm having a pretty good time here. Yeah.

And what do you think, like, the vitality of it? Because it seems to me that you're innately a theater actor, right? That's where your heart is. Yeah, I love the theater. And the intensity of that, the connection of that, I guess is something that is not like anything else. Can be. Yeah, I mean, I just finished doing last year

Long Day's Journey into Night. Oh, my God. On Broadway. Yeah. With Jessica Lange, Gabriel Byrne. How was that? I mean, it was heaven, you know? Oh my god. family that's basically falling to pieces. And you're like, I don't know how I'm going to get through it. But you get out on stage with those people and that dialogue, and it's just the biggest rush in the world. Yeah, that was sort of like Tracy's play.

What was it, August? August, Osage County. I saw that on Broadway, and I thought that thing was devastating and hilarious. Yeah. He's very good at devastating and hilarious. Yeah, Tracy's got a... I mean, like, for example, when you asked me earlier about comedy, there's a lot of comedy in what Tracy writes.

But it's, you know... I don't tend to do, like, straight-up comedy where there's nothing else involved. I honestly I like it to have a little bit of everything to me it's like

be like going to a salad bar and just getting lettuce right you want some depth a little range yeah well you did what

you worked with my friend Bob Odenkirk on that movie oh yeah Let's Go to Prison yeah that was a hoot that's a

that's a pretty silly movie that was a very silly movie. I mean, and I had to, there's no way I could take that seriously at all. I was playing a skinhead. So I wasn't anxious to get into the psychology of that. Just show up and be silly. Yeah, that's a rough psychology. Yeah.

So when you came out here, you know, because my producer brought to my attention that, you know, you had that, you had this one little scene in Groundhog Day. Mm-hmm. And that was...

They're making a musical of Groundhog Day. I just saw this in the New York Times. A full-page ad for Groundhog Day, the musical. I was like,

I wonder if my part will be in there. Will he get a little song? Have you ever done musicals? Well, when I was in high school auditioning for stuff, I would get little, like, I'd be in the ensemble. Right. Kind of doing the lame dance moves in the background.

Uh-huh. Or sometimes I would play in the pit, because I'm a musician, too, so I'd play the bass. You're I would play in the pit because I'm a musician too, so I'd play the bass. You're a bass player? Yeah. At the time, yeah, I was playing bass there. But since I left school,

I haven't done any musicals, no. No? How about music? Well, I have a band that, unfortunately, lately, I haven't been really able to put much into, but we exist. Do you play bass?

No, in the band I sing and kind of haphazardly strum a guitar. We made a CD a while ago, and you can find it on the internet. What's it called? Well, the band's called Corporal. Mm-hmm. And the CD, the album's kind of, by default, it's called Glory, just because there's a sign that says Glory on the cover.

I never technically called it that, but that's, I guess, what it's called. Yeah. So when you work with, like, when you do one scene, because, like, you know, I'm looking at all the films you've been in, you definitely had the opportunity to work with some pretty amazing directors. Oh, yeah. And I imagine that that has profound influence on how you evolve as an actor

on some level, no? Yeah. I mean, it'd be hard to put it into words. Right. on some level, no? Yeah. I mean, it'd be hard to put it into words. Right.

Because so much of what I do is like impulse and instinct and it's a lot of subconscious work, you know. Yeah? Yeah. I don't have many conversations about like, you know, acting theory or anything, but sometimes... Out of choice or you just don't like many conversations about acting theory or anything, but sometimes... Out of choice, or you just don't like to talk about it? Well, I don't think anybody likes to talk about it. Well, no, that's not true.

There are some people who like that. Well, what I realize about talking to actors, because I have started to talk about the actual process, is that, look, either you can do it or you can't at the baseline. It's kind of, yeah, that's kind of the way it is. And you're going to put together whatever tools you have, either on your own or you're going to get pounded with certain techniques that either stick or they don't or they become part of your unconscious process. Right. But anybody who sort of thinks they have a way, they don't have a way. No.

No, I think I heard recently somebody,ony hopkins kind of broke it down that way he said people have been asking me my whole life you know what's your technique what's your technique he's like i can't explain my technique to you i don't he's like i think about it i mean you think you know and it sounds kind of cliche but it really is like kids playing I mean you go in and you put on your your costume and you look in the mirror and you're like oh I'm gonna be this person today yeah what's what's this person doing today what are they what are they trying to accomplish and then you go out and you try to accomplish it and I think you know a lot of times you're just drawing on your imagination and all the experiences that you've had over the years as a human and the observations you made of other people. And it just kind of comes out.

You know, it's like trying to explain how you play skeeball. I don't know. You roll the ball up the ramp and you hope it goes in the hundred. But also, I have to assume that having done all that kind of basement theater and bigger theater and then being on stage on Broadway and O'Neill shows, that the engagement, you know, once you're locked in, that the emotional engagement, the ability to do that. Well, yeah, that kind of communion with other people,

it's fascinating because at the end of the day, you don't necessarily know the people you're working with super well. Like, we didn't spend a lot of time together socially during Long Day's Journey into Night. Yeah. And yet you're able to get to such an intimate place. And with a play like that, I mean, that material is full of longing and despair and the despair of people that desperately love one another

but can't help but harm one another. And that's such a universal thing i mean it's not easy to do but it's not complicated you know if and you just i just find myself always saying well how does this relate to my experience my life and i can draw the parallels and then and then uh jump into it you know yeah and even and even in the new movie, The Nocturnal Animals, there's like that first scene with you, there was some very specific choice to question that guy's masculinity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was a really, you know, very startling turn. Yeah. You're right out of the gate. You're like, why would you do that? Yeah. Well, you know, it's really mean because I think at that point everybody's feeling pretty sorry for Jake.

Yeah. Jake's character's gone through some. Jake Gyllenhaal. Yeah. Tony's gone through some pretty gruesome stuff there. So he kind of just needs a hug. Yeah. And then I show up and I'm like like it doesn't sound like you handled this very

well so that's again that's comedy right that's to me that's funny like i mean it's also disturbing and gruesome but it's there's comedy in that oh definitely that that movie is definitely not a comedy right but there is definitely that moment yeah yeah it's a very intertwined uh emotionally compelling thriller yeah in a way i get very i get very anxious watching movies like that but but this one went you know because of the two tiers the two different narratives going on it was good you know when he started dropping into her life and it was good man and you were great oh thanks mark yeah it was it must be fun to play texan yeah bobby's just i just love the guy i mean um you know i'm a big fan of like

jim thompson novel yeah things like that yeah to me he's just he's out of that world you know and And I just loved how the combination of his innate sort of nihilism, but the fact that he couldn't help but get drawn into Tony's dilemma and try and help him and care about him and do something to help him feel better, even though ultimately it's probably not going to help him feel better, even though ultimately it's probably not going to make him feel better, but at least he tried. And it's compounded by he's got a chronic, he's dying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

That is a Jim Thompson character. Yeah, yeah. These characters that you do, like I've seen, like the Iceman is one of those movies where you're like, that you played a real killer, a real dude. Yeah. But he was dead by the time you made the movie, or he wasn't? Yeah, no, I never got to meet him.

And from what I heard, I probably wouldn't have been brave enough to sit in a room alone with him. I heard he was a hard person to be alone with in a room alone with, I heard he was very, a hard person to be alone with in a room. But I did meet his kids, which is really interesting. They came to the premiere. What's his name, Richard Kuklinski? Kuklinski, yeah, Richard Kuklinski. Savage.

Yeah, but this was the thing, the point I was the first place is that despite his pathology, which was obviously very dark, he still longed to have a family, and he was trying to have love in his life. he was trying to have love in his life. Like he wanted to have a good life and he wanted to have a family and he wanted to be loved and to love other people and yet do this horrible stuff at the same time. He was a contract killer, right? Yeah, a contract killer.

And you can see that when his kids are watching the movie and they're there and they come up to me and they're like, yeah, yeah, good job. It's funny. It's like, that's my dad.

That was my dad. You got it? And I loved him. They loved him and he loved them. And it's, that's, if that component

hadn't been in the story, I don't think I would have been interested in doing the movie. Because then he would have been... It just would have been one-dimensional. Irredeemable. Yeah, well, and we have so many movies of people just running around killing people. I don't think it's something we're missing

from our culture, necessarily. People killing each other? Yeah, or movies about it. In movies or real life. I'm trying to remember. I saw Mud. Mud was at the Matthew McConaughey thing. Yes, with the two little boys.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I just love working with Jeff. I mean, he's made five films, and I've been in all of them. Jeff Nichols? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's like my brother, you know. What makes it, what is it about the relationship

that makes it great as an actor to work with a director like that? You know, we're both from the South originally and I think we have similar tastes and similar thought patterns, concerns about, you know, the world. Like, for me, Take Shelter is the most meaningful, kind of significant piece I've done.

And the fact that Jeff wrote it, Jeff was able to put down on paper basically the summation of all my deepest anxieties and that I was able to get the opportunity to make that into a movie. It's just a very, it's startling when you have that much synchronicity with somebody. And you think it's relative to you guys being from the South? You know, that's part of it. Part of it is just dumb luck, you know. I mean, Jeff, you know, he's got qualities that I think anyone would admire. He's a really hard worker.

He's really intelligent. would admire he's a really hard worker he's really intelligent he's uh he's very uh he is he stands by his convictions uh he's not afraid to walk into any room anywhere and say what he wants and how he plans to go about getting it and uh but he's also very uh kind uh He's not a bully or anything. I don't know. And that movie's about doom? Well, for me, Take Shelters is about how do you function in this world, particularly if you have people that you care about, particularly children. The storm that's coming is like a, it's a metaphor.

It's, you know, there's always a storm, some sort of storm coming. There's something horrifying happening that you're not sure you're going to be able to protect your children from. I mean, for example, right now, this week, you know, I have two little girls and I can't stop thinking about what the world's going to be like for them. Yeah. And you don't have, I mean, I hate to sound like I'm giving up, but it seems like you don't have any control over it. So what do you do? Are you able to just enjoy your life anyway? Is it living in the moment or whatever?

How do you not get crushed by this sense that the world's just out of control? Right. And how do you? Well, I just go pretend to be other people and do imaginary things. I don't know. I do believe a lot of it is just taking each day as it comes and realizing that the time that you have right then, there, in the moment is special. And you also have to try and if you if you really believe

that something's wrong you have to try and do something about it yeah which i'm still trying to wrap my head around well i mean it's interesting that you know you said that that movie is is you know comes out of uh this relationship of a couple of guys from a part of the country that gets hung out to dry as being this difficult place for a lot of the reasons that I think we're all feeling now. Now, was that part of your experience? Well, yeah. I mean, we shot the movie in and around Grafton, Ohio, which is not you know i i'm pretty certain it's

the only movie that's ever been made in grafton ohio um it's not like the the hollywood of the midwest or something right and um yeah i stayed uh when we were shooting the movie, I was staying downtown, which is basically like a block long strip. And I was staying in an abandoned building. And there was definitely a sense of like, it's hard to live here. It's not easy to live here. It's not easy to live here. And I have so much. It's so frustrating because I really understand how people feel. I understand that they're. It's hard to have hope right now.

And people feel like they've been screwed over. But. At a certain point. But at a certain point, you just have to take responsibility for yourself and realize that someone else isn't going to fix all your problems. But yeah, I think that the people, the good people, it's just a confusing time in our country because the solution is not in arm's reach, it seems like. It's not what just happened. That's not going to solve anything. So what is going to fix it? I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the interesting thing is that even when I travel like I travel all over the place you know and for years the the South was stigmatized in my mind right you know for whatever historical reasons but that has nothing to do necessarily with individual people you know so you get to this thing where you know I find myself you know I love the country down there i've met nothing but good people yeah you know a you know i don't know them intimately or personally or what lurks in their hearts or or how they're going to act out of their own fear and frustration or maybe i didn't meet those people maybe i met a lot of like-minded people but i certainly have been able as i've gotten older to to realize that you know the

country is made up of people and all those people have their own you know little lives and problems but by and large you know you can meet them somewhere in the middle right you know and it becomes very you know frustrating when you see masses guided one way or the other that you know people are are their their ability to just sort of like, you know, at least appreciate that we all share something becomes shattered. Yeah. One, it's just not, there's a weird thing happening right now

with how people are understanding the world and kind of creating their own identity, you know, because it used to be that these places are you can say the south or the midwest or whatever that it would be fairly isolated right and um but there's this weird combination of uh being isolated and yet being inundated through technology by like everything that's happening in the world and this false sense of like oh i understand right because i'm getting all this information all the time i get it on by everything that's happening in the world. And this false sense of like, oh, I understand because I'm getting all this information all the time.

I get it on my internet and my TV. I know exactly what's going on. Right. Even though I am very isolated from all of it. And then that information is dubious. Yeah, it's false. Yeah, so it's... I almost wish that we could just

go back to when that wasn't so readily available all the time. Because I'm not necessarily sure that it's helping. It's a false sense of community that is very easily, the momentum of it is just brutal.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can see. I mean, you know, the campaign was run by a guy who's a media, you know, has a media company. Right. And he knows how to work people. How to work it. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, as a creative person now, I mean, that's, you know, all this stuff begins to inform your, you know, all this stuff begins to inform your,

you know, how you're going to do your work. And we got it. We have to assume that the work we do is provocative. Yeah. And that, you know, maybe,

you know, maybe it'll level out and, and, and do like, that's the amazing thing about theater is that you can tangibly feel how it touches humanity. Yeah. You know, immediately the emotional dynamic between a performer and, and the audience is like, you feel it hit. Yeah. You know, immediately. The emotional dynamic between a performer and the audience is like, you feel it hit.

Yeah. You know? Yeah, it's like when you did, you've done stand-up and stuff. Yeah, yeah. So you get that too, right? Well, yeah. No, absolutely. And, you know, depending on how vulnerable you want to be, you know, if you're in a character,

I imagine it doesn't necessarily make it any safer but that's the courage of it right i'm gonna put myself out there because you know i gotta own that right right yeah but it can be you know for me i always find it helpful to focus less on whether i think i'm doing a good job or not or like the glory of my own whatever. Yeah. And just focus more on the experience that all the people are having together. Right. Right.

Yeah. I don't need people to stand up and shout my name afterwards, but I do want people to get wrapped up in it. Sure. Because it's, you know, particularly something like Long Day's Journey into Night is very worthwhile. Yeah. And when you say, like, my question lately, because I've been doing a little acting, is

that there is something about, you know, because you're Michael Shannon, you're your own guy, and, you know, you're going to bring to it whatever it is, but this text, this story, this play has existed for decades. It is what it is. Well, and the Giants have, I mean, you're walking in the footsteps of the Giants when you play that part, Jamie, and Long Day's Journey to the Night, and there's Jason Robards.

The last person to have done it on Broadway was Philip Seymour Hoffman, so it's like, yeah, you better bring your... Right. Yeah. But you have to, but also that your relationship with that text, I mean, there, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say as an actor is that it's very important to remember that, you know, that's the story.

Yeah. Right? Exactly. You know, like whatever your worries are about, you know, who you are as an actor or whatever, you know, whatever your worries are about you know you know uh who you are as an actor whatever right you know there there there it is right you know i'm you know that it's all it's laid out for you and that that's what you're telling yeah and how how much can you land that with the audience right like ideally you know one of the frustrating things about acting or

you could consider it frustrating if you want, is that ideally it's invisible. You're not seeing it. There are other things I can think of that are kind of like that. You want to be, I refer, like you're an aperture between the story, what you're talking about, and the audience. And how much can you get out of the way? And that doesn't mean not doing anything. It's very, very difficult.

Make it fluid. Yeah, it's a mysterious thing. Did you ever work with Phil Hoffman? He directed me in a play. Oh, really? And he was a wonderful director, and he was a wonderful person, and very tough. He never satisfied always.

You can go deeper, you can go deeper. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Which place? But that's what he did to himself. So he expected it of other people. It was a play called The Little Flower of East Orange by a writer named Stephen Adly Gerges. He just had a play called

Between Riverside and Crazy. That was kind of a big deal in New York. And also he wrote The Mother with the Hat. In the Hat. Yeah. With the Hat. That was also on Broadway. He's...

This is all part of a theater company, Labyrinth Theater Company in New York. Um, that was his, yeah, that Phil, Phil was artistic, one of the artistic directors of,

and, um, and Stephen was kind of like the resident, one of the resident writers. Yeah. Company. So, yeah,

I did that at the public theater. Uh, Ellen Burstyn played my mom. Oh, wow. Yeah. It uh yeah it was intense yeah yeah yeah and then also uh phil and i are both in the movie uh uh before the devil knows you're dead the last film that sydney lamette made oh yeah um we didn't really have much to do together he basically just shot me yeah he just comes in blows me away but uh i most my stuff was with ethan hawk i had him in here he's a thoughtful guy he really is and such

uh got like mercury in him or something he's just so lit up yeah yeah and passionate yes i mean one of the things you always hear about acting or when people are talking about film acting, teaching film acting, is like one of the main things you got to do is you got to relax. Right. You got to relax and stop like freaking out, you know, unless you're doing a scene where you're losing your shit. But, you know, it's about being relaxed and having a certain amount of confidence, not arrogance, but it's like, I can do this. Right. The world isn't going to end. I will say these lines and everything will be okay.

And we'll do it again and again and again. Exactly. From all different angles. Yeah. I have a problem with modulating my voice because I'm always yelling, but I've decided that I do that in real life, too. That my natural voice is like, how's it going? Yeah, yeah.

Because when you're on a soundstage or you're in a studio, you feel like you've got to fill the room. Exactly. You seem to, like, yeah, I guess that's another decision you've got to make. It's like, I can just talk like a person. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, sometimes even quieter than that. I mean, sometimes to be shooting a scene, somebody would be

five feet away from you and you can barely hear what they're saying, but it sounds great on their, you know, lavalier mic. Yeah, you're mic'd up. Yeah.

But I used to have that problem. I was a very loud, people were always telling me, it's like, I can hear you, I can hear you, you know? Yeah. But then it was funny

when you started doing stage, then everyone's like, your diction's terrible. I can't understand what you're saying. And then so then I had to work on that. And now I think I've found the middle road. The middle road? Yeah. So what was it on Boardwalk Empire?

How was it to work in a period piece for that long? It must have been kind of brain bending after a while. work in a period piece for that long. It must have been kind of brain bending after a while. Well, you know, it was interesting just because I never really spent that much time there. You know,

outside of Steve, and even Steve towards the end, Nucky was not around every day. But, you know, it would take six months to shoot a season of boardwalk yeah and and you'd be there maybe 20 25 days right six month period and it feels like you're a big part of the show you know uh because of the storytelling or whatever but you just it's not your everyday

thing so in a way it's what's tricky about it is you're just popping in every once in a while and popping back into that world. The design on that show was so amazing. That always helps. Yeah, it just got to the point where it was kind of like he was just like an old buddy of mine. It was like, oh, I'm going to go see Van Alden today. And then at the end of the day, I day i said well see you in a couple weeks yeah all right uh it did not dominate my my life really how did you manage to come out of chicago

and not um like i were you ever like a a manic yelling actor oh yeah sure i mean yeah that was part of the the vibe sometimes around there. But, yeah, my first review I ever got when I was doing that play Winterset, the critic was like, this guy thinks acting's waving his arms around and rubbing his forehead. Oh, God. And it was a guy, great critic, Richard Christensen at the Tribune. But then he came and saw the next one, and he said,

well, technically this guy's not so hot, but he's got something going on. I have to concede there's something interesting about him. He's not waving his arms around in this one. Yeah, I just had to get some duct tape and tape him down. But Tracy, as a director, because that stuff's very engaged stuff. Yeah. And, you know, I imagine he directed you a few times, right? Tracy?

Yeah. Well, I would either work with him as an actor or a writer. He would never actually direct. When we did Killer Joe, there was a director named Wilson Milam. And when we did Bug, well, a director named Wilson Milam and when we did Bug well Wilson directed the first production of Bug and then Dexter Bullard Dexter Bullard

who directed Fun of Nobody the play that I met Tracy on those were very intense I mean they're very like you know paced man

oh yeah and like you know it's just the the sort of psychological movement and then the actual physical movement, the emotional movement. It's like, boom. Yeah.

Like, just everything's blowing up all the time. And we would do the, like I said, we would do these shows in very small theaters where there was no room for the audience to escape from it. for the audience to escape from it. And we would do them as... We really wanted it to seem voyeuristic, like what you were getting the chance to see had nothing to do with you,

and you were basically the proverbial fly on the wall. Yeah. That it would be happening whether you were there or not. Right. So, yeah, I mean, I hear people to this day every once in a while, when I did Bug in New York, someone would come up and say, I still remember that feeling. I've never been that tense in a theater before I've never

experienced that and you're like perfect yeah yeah we did it yeah and how did Friedkin direct that because I talked to him about it and I tried to sort of push his buttons about digital versus film yeah because he was very able to you know in his films to get something visceral uh but he loves digital he loves it yeah it was it speeds up the process yeah i mean he seems to be definitely in the the school of you know let's get home which a lot of the you know more established directors are you know i mean uh sydney lomel was the same way uh it was like why stay here for 14 hours where i can be done in eight hours right and then we can like go have a nice dinner or something right um was it exciting to work with those guys yeah it is because if you're working

with somebody that you know is going to do a lot of coverage or a lot of takes then you didn't the first take you do you're kind of like well let's just see what happens and maybe i'll learn something but if you know if you're working with somebody like clint eastwood it's like which i haven't done but i've just heard it's you the one take you know unless something blows up that's it so it's a different kind of um you know that going in yeah so it requires you can't just be like let's see what happens you have to you know that going in. Yeah. So you can't just be like, let's see what happens. You have to, you know, it's more demanding. Right, right.

And also you're dealing with personalities too, I imagine. Yeah. Because I have to assume having talked to Friedkin for two hours, there's definitely an intensity there. Well, he was very, you know, he saw Bug the play, and he just loved Tracy's writing. He loved the production, and he just really kind of, I don't want to say this without sounding ostentatious,

but he was just like, you know what you're doing. You know this guy better than... Because he had to fight to get me in that movie because the financiers were like, let's get a big movie star or something. Friedkin was like, I'm telling you,

you can name any name you want to name right now, but you're not going to tell me somebody who's going to do this who's going to know how to do this more than this kid does. And you originated the role. Yeah. Yeah. So I owe Billy big time for that because he really went to bat for me. So what's these new movies coming out that are, you know,

and Nocturnal Animals is very, it's great. It looks great. That guy, Tom Ford, I didn't know much about him, but it seems like he's kind of came around to directing sort of sideways yeah but you know he he's very respectful of the fact that uh that people come together and help him make these films and he knows that it's like a real uh privilege yeah And he takes it very seriously. And he's a real student of film and cinema. I mean,

there's so many influences, obviously, all over Nocturnal Animals. Right out of the gate, it felt like kind of a film noir movie. Yeah.

Just by the look of it. Yeah. And that DP, Seamus McGarvey, is incredible. There's some, some of my favorite shots of the sky I've ever seen in a movie or in Nocturnal Animals.

He just really used the sky so well. Do you feel like you're starting to get typecast or no? No, no, I don't. I mean, for me, it's like all these characters, they're different. They're just different folks, you know? I mean, I think because I am ultimately, at the end of the day, one human being. Yeah. But I don't know if I can completely disappear all the time.

I mean, you're probably seeing some similarities. But for me, they're all different folks. You just bring that, you bring the intensity to it. I saw you on a plane once. Really? Yeah. I didn't say nothing to you. No, I fly constantly.

Yeah, I don't remember what it was that struck me. I knew I was nervous. Oh, really? I saw you and I'm like, Michael Shannon. I don't remember if I was sitting in first class. I I saw you and I'm like, oh, that's Michael Shannon. And then like, you know, I don't remember if I was sitting in first class. I think you were. And I can't remember

what it was. I don't know if you didn't have shoes on or there was something. I can't remember. There was something like that. Like you held the space pretty fucking well.

Yeah. Even if you were just sitting down. I take my shoes off from time to time. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, you got to. You know?

Yeah. Well, those long flights. Yeah. It's those long flights, otherwise you get all clammy down there. Do you live right in Manhattan? I live in Brooklyn. Yeah. In Red Hook. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I live right by the river there. I can see the Statue of Liberty from my window, which is nice.

It's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. I was just there. I lived there for years. I don't know if I want to live there again, but I like being there. Yeah. It's alive. Where did you live at?

I lived in the late 80s. I lived down in Alphabet City, second between A and B. Oh, wow. And then moved up to 16th and 3rd, a little pre-war high rise there. It's a very interesting place. And then I moved to Astoria for a pretty long haul. I never go to Queens. I was just talking about this the other day.

And I hear it's so interesting out there. I loved it. And it was there before. I was there, like, I don't know if it ever really turned into a hipster enclave. But the amazing thing about Astoria was, you know, you get off that N train at, you know 30th ave and it was just like all hours of the day it was just like every kind of person in the world just buying vegetables like you right when you get off there's just these like three or four vegetable places and there's just people there till like midnight right you know buying greens you know greek people people from dominican republic people from you know middle

eastern countries then up on steinway there's that whole e Republic, people from, you know, Middle Eastern countries. Then up on Steinway, there's that whole Egyptian block. Right. That, you know, you just walk around the corner and it's like, I never even knew what Egyptian pastries looked like. Wow. And there they are. It was just. It's a real melting pot.

Oh, totally. And I imagine it still is. Yeah. You know, I just miss, the things I miss about New York is is just everything's so alive and you know and all the food like you know you go there i used to go to the fish market across the street and there's these three guys they're italian guys they've been running it's family business and you just go i didn't even need fish i just go into to look at fish right because it was there yeah and those guys were there and they talk about fish for a few minutes that's what i that's what I like about it.

Are you a cook? I cook. I can cook. You know, I'm not a foodie kind of gourmet guy but I can cook a fish. Yeah.

Yeah, it's not always a happy event. I've fucked up some attempts at soft shell crabs and, you know, but like, you know,

nobody likes bluefish because it's, you know, oily and smelly but if you get it. Oh, I love bluefish. Me too. You get it the day of, it's oily and smelly. I love bluefish. Me too. You get it the day of, it's the best. Yeah, yeah.

It's like a pigeon fish. No one gives a fuck about bluefish. But you can just go get it in New York fresh because it's all over the place. I don't know, mackerel. So you cook? I'm not very good myself, which is uh inconvenient because i have a couple of kids it's just you and the kids no i mean ma's around too but she's a great cook but you know every once in a while it's up to me to make breakfast yeah yeah sure how old are your kids i have an

eight-year-old and a 2-year-old. Wow. So you're just watching them become people. Yeah, apparently today they went into the city. I know this won't help because it's a podcast, but I can show you. This is my 8-year-old daughter with a sign she made to go protest in front of Trump Tower. Oh. Diversity makes America. That's sweet.

Eight years old. She gets it. Yeah. So, anyway. That's what you got to do. Yeah. That's what you got to teach them. That's how we push back. Yeah, yeah.

I miss her. i miss her i miss i hate being away uh so much but um yeah they're becoming people all right and then the little one the two-year-old she's a real she's a real powder keg she's i think she's gonna be a rock and roller oh yeah yeah yeah that'd be all right right yeah she loves to dance and sing and beautiful. That's got to bring a lot of joy. Definitely. It's great talking to you, man. Thanks, Mark.

Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for doing it. No problem. Pretty intense dude. Great talking to him. Good guy. We hung out for a little while after. We talked a little while after we we talked

a little more connected talked about art the future about being people let's keep it simple let's keep it simple Thank you. Boomer lives! Boomer lives! Boomer lives! Arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No, but moose head? Yes, because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly.

Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.