WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 762 - Scott Fagan

Episode Date: November 23, 2016

Singer-songwriter Scott Fagan created a beautiful album in 1968, called South Atlantic Blues. But things didn't go the way they were supposed to. Scott talks with Marc about why the album and his career fizzled, how they were both resurrected, and how he connected with a son he never met, who is an accomplished artist in his own right. Plus, Marc delivers his annual Thanksgiving Day pep talk. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is WTF.

This is my podcast. How are you? Look, I know it's Thanksgiving. I know, I know. Some of you might be at home. You might be back home where you come from back with your family hold up in your old room we do this every year and uh it's always a little difficult for some people but uh I think for some people it's going to be a lot more difficult if they even made the trip because well we had a major election a few years back,

but this is another big one. It's very divided, and it's going to be hard for some families to survive it. I mean, obviously not, you know, living, but God forbid, you know, things could get that ugly. But, I mean, to survive the emotional bonds of family, no matter how troubled they may are they may be without this stuff if there's political divisiveness within the family man it's gonna be rough out there for some people i know it i'll speak to it as best i can i'm not going back i couldn't go back to i couldn't go to florida

because of work but there's a couple of people within the the unit within the uh extended family that comes to thanksgiving that i've always been at odds with and now it's uh you know it's there's two sides to this thing there's actually more it's a lot more nuanced than that but when when it comes right down to it one side won the other side didn't there's a lot of vulnerable sensitive thoughtful uh progressive people out there that are now uh just in shock and stunned and more vulnerable because uh now they have to deal with the aggressive gloating of the other side. And that's hard. It's horrible. If I can speak to the nine conservatives who listen to my show,

if you have people in your family who are wounded by this situation and are looking down the barrel at uh four years of the to them that the the best it can be is horrible and that's not even being cynical for people who believe a certain way could i just say to you few conservatives who listen to this who have members of your family that you're going to be seeing today, ease up on the aggressive gloating, the condescension, the infantilizing. Just ease up. All right? Help out here in this particular situation. I don't even know how much to get into it, but to speak from where I'm sitting and just to project the possible horrors in terms of arguments and crying and yelling and discomfort that some homes are going to be feeling. You know, I can only speculate, but I would like to read because sometimes, you know, I wonder, you know, what my place is.

I would like to read because sometimes you know I wonder you know what my place is as a broadcaster and as somebody that uh a student of the uh of the human heart and spirit you know and things when the chips are down and things get shitty I sometimes wonder you know what do I do here I know what I do I talk about myself I talk to other people about things that interest me and about their life. But I get this email, and this is what keeps me going sometimes. It's from a guy named Robert. Just says, thank you.

Hi, Mark. I love your podcast, but that's not why I'm emailing you. I wanted to email you to tell you thank you. Before I go into it, I want to say I'm not doing this to get attention or even to have you read this on the podcast or anything like that. I'm emailing you because you made a difference in my life. I listen to your podcast every week while I work, and I hear about the people who email

you to tell you thanks for various things, and I finally worked up the courage to email you. I was going through a rough time in my life when I was introduced to your podcast. I couldn't accept who I was as a person. And it felt like there was a giant hole that couldn't be filled inside. I lost who I was for a long time. And that culminated in a suicide attempt, which led me to being put in a mental hospital for a short time. When I got out, my girlfriend, who I'm still with today, surprised me with your book,

Attempting Normal, because she knew I was a fan of the podcast and your stand-up. I love the book so much. Your book, and especially the time you take on each episode to delve into your mind and your honesty about yourself and learning to live with who you are as a person helped me feel okay with who I am. It helped me feel like I wasn't alone when I truly felt so isolated and alone that I didn't want to live anymore. I can't describe how much relief and hope I felt because someone else, someone who had a real voice, talked about many of the things I was feeling. Sometimes the things you said and the things I've read in your book are actual thoughts I've had. It made a world of difference.

And I soon sought help after that, realizing that I couldn't do it alone and I'm a much happier person now because of it. But most of all, you help me feel like a real person. I truly think you are a special person. And as many people have said, you have a real way of humanizing and getting to the heart and soul of your guests.

And something truly special and amazing happens every time you sit down in the garage for an interview. I was born in New Mexico, and I've never really been proud of my home state, but you make me proud to be a New Mexican. I hope this email finds you well. Hope all is well with the cats, and please keep up the great work. Much love, respect, and admiration being sent your way. Robert, Boomer lives. So I guess the thing that strikes me is that, you know, there's a lot of people feeling isolated. But, you know, and feeling alone or at odds or on the wrong end of the thing. Whatever.

But you're not. Okay, you're not. And I know going into Thanksgiving, you're going to get beat up, and you already were beat up. If you have people with different political views than you, you know who I'm talking to. Let me just get a little business done here.

I'm going to be in Chicago on December 3rd, two shows at the Vic. You can go to wtTFpod.com. Tour slash tour. I think the first show is kind of sold out. The second show, there's still seats. But it's looking good there, and I'd love to see. I'm excited to go to Chicago.

I like going to Chicago. I like performing. Something's happened. Well, I mean, I've always liked it. But now it's like, I've got to do it. I've got to show up for the people that are showing up for deeper reasons than just comedy. It's just the way I feel. Also, new WTF cap mugs are available tomorrow, Black Friday, from Brian Jones up in Portland.

These are the same mugs I give to my guests. They go on sale at 12 noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific tomorrow, November 25th. Go to BrianRJones.com to get yours people love these these are good gifts as well what else well look you know a lot of families are going to be tested the relationships are going to be tested it's going to be difficult it's got christ before this election even football could test relationships and families. And just seeing the people once or twice a year can test it. I mean, it's just, it is. It's difficult.

And I know some people are entering family situations where they're like, why? Why did you vote the way you did? Why? Why would you vote for that guy? Or why? I thought, you know, I mean, I thought we had some basic understanding. This is going to be a real test of the love that holds families together. It is.

The country is divided, so this is going to show up around the turkey. Let's say you have a father or a brother, and you're like, why the fuck would you vote the way you did? Just ask yourself. Make a checklist for yourself. Are they needy? Are they volatile? Are they self-absorbed? Are they impulsive? Are they thin they needy? Are they volatile? Are they self-absorbed? Are they impulsive?

Are they thin-skinned? Are they defensive? Are they manipulative? Are they scared of change? And instead of changing, would they make life miserable for other people to fight that change? Are they set in their ways? Are they horrendously terrified and angry about the possibility of losing? Are they stubborn?

Now, that's a profile. That could go either way. But if you have a hard time understanding why someone would vote the way they did, maybe look at that checklist and maybe ask yourself, were they always like that? Does it make sense? Even if you don't agree with it. Even if it was a wrong decision. Does it make sense for that person?'t agree with it even if it was a wrong decision does it make sense for that person has that person always been like that maybe that'll give you a little wiggle room to hold on to some love for some people that you may hate right now and in like

mothers sisters where are do they are they the type of person that that covers up and apologizes for the guy that I just described? All right, well, maybe. Have they always been that way? Maybe that'll find you a little wiggle room for acceptance. I mean, a lot of us are just in the process of accepting the reality of what's happened. We've gone through a few stages, and this is like you're walking into something that's going to rip to rip open the wound again yeah the wound of losing and the wound of being terrified for the future and believe me the people in your family if they aren't you know horrible evil people they

don't know what's going to happen no one knows what's going to happen and they might be glib about it. And as I said before, aggressive gloating, condescension, infantilizing, i.e., all those add up in certain instances to just bullying. Hard to deal with. It's going to be a rough go. But take some time. If you need to step away, step away. And I say this, you know, outside of politics. I've said it before on Thanksgiving.

Step away. take a walk go look at your old hangouts drive around remember what it was like to be a teenager when you had it all in front of you listen to some music try to hit a reset try to get through it try to love despite the anger if you can scott fagan is on the show it's a very interesting story uh scott fagan did a a sort of masterful album in 1968 called south atlantic blues and it's been dug up and remastered and reissued by uh saint cecilia knows and light in the attic records and it's a beautiful record but it's an insane story that you know everything was moving in the right direction and shit just didn't go the way it was supposed to and he was set to wandering after the the record tanked and then it was resurrected in a very odd way it's a it's an amazing story uh from a very gifted artist with a very unique past and he's got he he was reunited with his son who was um who he didn't know he never met but years and years later

uh who is uh steven merit from magnetic fields and it's so weird because I talked to Scott about it. Like, Stephen knew his father was a musician, but he didn't know who he was until much, he met him much later in life. And Scott had mentioned, you'll hear it, he mentioned that when he heard the music that his son made, he could hear himself in it. And I listened to the Magnetic Fields

sort of for the first time just the other night because Merge Records sent me their first two albums that they reissued. And I can hear it too. It was like genetic. It's fucking trippy, man. So Scott's going to be on the show in a minute. It was a pretty beautiful interview

because I'd read an article about this record, and I met the guy that found the record and got behind it. And, you know, he told me about the guy, and it just was a fascinating thing. I'm fascinated with people that put one thing out there that is beautiful and monumental and then disappear for whatever reason. And to have something kind of be reintroduced.

Like, I talked to Terry Reid, also a Light in the Attic artist, but Light in the Attic is a very good label for this stuff. But this Scott Fagan thing was just, it was fascinating. It was fascinating to talk to him. And the album is beautiful. It really is.

But that said, you can get the album, South Atlantic Blues, over at Light in the Attic Records. And this is me talking to the very wise and slightly beat up, but beautiful Scott. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything.

Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. Egan. How many days have you been in L.A.? This time, two. Two days? Yeah. How long are you staying?

Until Thursday. Do you like coming out here? I lived here for a while. I've been through L.A. many, many times. Right? Many lifetimes. Yeah, yeah. What were the years?

I first came out in 1972 with my rock opera, times. Right? Many lifetimes. Yeah, yeah. What were the years? I first came out in 1972 with my rock opera, Soon. Right. We did it at the Pilgrimage. Uh-huh. I came up in 87. Yeah. And I came up to go to UCLA

to learn program design. I designed a recovery program for the music business. And did it take? It did. Really? What's it called? Now it's called Music Ears. And what's the angle? How does it work? Well, originally, you may know that, I'm guessing that it's true of comedians as well, but

most musicians are independent contractors. That's right. No coverage for treatment. Right. The reality, or my reality, is that musicians have a tremendous impact on the society. Yes. If we're trying to support recovery for the society, supporting recovery for musicians. I got sober in New York.

What year? 1978. Oh, you're an old-timer. May 24, 1978. You know. That was the day. Chock full of nuts on the Upper West Side. Sitting there with that coffee at the counter.

Oh, yeah. No, no, no, no. No? Chock full of real nuts, not the coffee joint. Okay. The name of the group was Chelsea Riverside, but it was better known as Chock Full of Nuts. Got it. And I was elected chairperson within the first year because they could see that I needed it more than most.

Anyway, so then I went back to St. Thomas, which is where I'm from. The incidence of alcohol-related deaths in St. Thomas is impressive. In the States, Texas is the highest. Yeah. Alaska's double that. Yeah. And the Virgin Islands are double Alaska.

No kidding. Yeah, yeah. So when I was a boy, there was no minimum drinking age. We just drank from the very beginning. And alcoholism is all over the place there. But you weren't born there. We went when I was five in 1951. So when you were, we'll get, we'll come back around to the, because I'm sober 17 years myself. Well, good for you, man. Yeah, man, I just had August 9th, 17 years.

Good for you, good, good, good for you. Fucking miracle. Nothing but. But, you know, the fascinating thing about your story to me is that, you know, we're in this time where, you know know people are finding new music that's really old music i was brought up with a certain mindset about you know what music was and and and it's at a certain point in your life you realize that it's much broader than you ever imagined so when chris campion the man that that reissued your record south atlantic blues told me about you i was like all right that sounds interesting

and then you you know i played this record and i'm like holy shit you know this like this magical music from another time and uh these are nice things to be hearing mark i appreciate it well i mean you know it's it's sort of it's it's fascinating to me as somebody who has struggled in show business as well for many years, how to discuss or handle the story and what you went through. It's a hell of a tale, man, and you look pretty good. Well, 38 years clean and sober. That helped? Please, I'd have been gone in 1979.

I'd have been foodled. Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. So let's talk about New York. So you were born in New York, but you don't have any real recollection of it. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah? Yeah, I was born at Bellevue Hospital, appropriately.

Yeah. My pop was a tenor man. Oh, really? Sex? Oh, yeah. Like a real deal bebop guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.

We lived on 52nd Street. It was 1945, 46, 47, 52nd Street, which was jazz heaven. That's where all the musicians were and the songwriters and everything, right? Yep. So he came up with Prez. No shit. Lester Young? Yes. And Eleanor Fagan. You know who that is? I don't know who Prez. No shit. Lester Young? Yes.

And Eleanor Fagan. You know who that is? I don't know who that is. I know. That's Billie Holiday. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. So was he playing with them?

Well, he played with them. Sure. He was younger than them. And, you know, they all had people coming up under them. So he was coming up under Lester. And, you know, just the influence. Lester's influence on his horn playing was fantastic. Lester was like heavy influence on Art Pepper, too.

Art Pepper can't shut up about Lester Young. Well, he was great. And, you know, anytime you want to hear something absolutely magical, just find some Leslie Young. So you grew up at that time, you know, hearing your dad practice, being part of that people over at the house. And sitting in rehearsal halls, my sister and I, on the little folding chairs while they did bebop for hours and hours. for hours and hours. If we weren't at the rehearsal hall,

we were at the dance studio where my mother and her twin sister were doing modern Afro-Congolese outreach. Really? Oh, yeah. So you grew up right in the middle of Bohemian New York, in a way. Well, we were very bored, my sister and I. You couldn't appreciate it then.

Oh, God. What are they doing? But, but i mean it was a natural for us you know we took very naturally to it and then um my pop couldn't resist what were called chippies yeah familiar with the term yeah well i think that evolved into groupies yes yes, yes. Sure. So my mother, when I asked my mother, Mud, why did you divorce Frankie? She said, he wanted sunny side up eggs every morning.

Oh, that was it. But later she confessed it was the chippies. Yeah. And he concurred. Anyway, we went off to the Virgin Islands with a painter.

Like what kind? Abstract realist? Abstract painter? Anybody of import? went off to the virgin islands with a painter oh like uh what kind of abstract realist abstract painter anybody have in port well he he eventually came back and and made a good living as a commercial artist name was justin fletcher so he was he married your mom he did not he uh came back his mother insisted he come back and marry a nice jewish girl so he left you guys down there that's what he did he took you to the virgin islands no um my mother and her twin sister yeah took him oh okay yeah they they'd been on their own since they were 16 and you know they they were artsy chicks and she had a steamer trunk full of 78s and off we went to it and that's where

we went to st thomas yes it's been an art colony uh yeah what does that mean i can't i can't it it means that um what was it called the art colony um it was built around Claude Pissarro and abstractionism. And poets, all the well-known poets in those days would come and stay at the Hotel 1829. So this was the late 50s? 1951. Oh, really? But it had been in place for 100 years. That's when you got there in 51?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder, was Derek Wall caught around? Not St. Thomas. No, he's from Trinidad, I think. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. I knew that guy at BU. I met that guy.

Interesting fellow. He is. And a great poet, really. Yeah. But Trinidad, you know, the archipelago stretches from venezuela to key west yeah i'm not good with islands i've made some pretty embarrassing mistakes about islands well i can get in the wrong island yeah yeah so you're a kid you're at the artist colony you got one sister um my sister gail yeah year and a half old and your mom and her twin sister and this guy who

doesn't hang around long yeah and then uh what's life like what's your mother doing uh she's a secretary a legal secretary yeah and uh dancer uh-huh uh immediately we're in the art scene there uh-huh poets andets and painters and lots of gay folk. It was very attractive for gay people. Oh, yeah? For many, many years also. Oh, before they could really be out and having a life. Well, no, there everybody was out.

There they could, right? That's what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a retreat. Yeah. And when did you start playing? I started singing. My pop was a singer also, a beautiful, beautiful singer.

Did you stay in touch with him all through your life or no? No, there were long blank spaces. Uh-huh. My mother married eight times. Eight times? Yes. I'm assuming they're not all great guys. Well, they were all alcoholic. Is she alcoholic? Yes. I'm assuming they're not all great guys. Well, they were all alcoholic.

Is she alcoholic? Absolutely. Really? Like just... Born and bred. Look, man, you know, the genetics of alcoholism go back to the first rotten mango on both sides. You got it. That's it. You got the bug in your blood that's it yeah um so so

things were rough right we were um the only white children in the public school system for many many years uh-huh and and uh basically uh she was materially challenged. Yeah. We were, I don't like the term poor, but we were the poorest white folks I had ever seen anywhere. Yeah. And to this day, that's the fact. Right. But there was a tremendous amount of love and acceptance by local folks.

Oh, yeah? La, that's the little white boy. Man, come, Louie, feed him something. Gail, come, no? So it was an extraordinary life. Bereft of any material comfort, but lots of hugs, lots of love, lots of acceptance. Kind of love, lots of acceptance. Kind of pure.

Very much that. And then later on I was a homeless teenager, and so I left high school in the 10th grade. Why did you leave home? I didn't. Home left me. Yeah. And my mother was married to a local Jamaican dude

who tried to murder me one night. Oh, really? But you know, it is people with addiction. Sure. She was strung out, and he was the light in her life. was the light in her life. Yeah. And though I don't doubt she loved me very much, I'm completely confident in that. It's just the way life was in that time. Anyway, so quarter to three in the morning, I get up and say, free as egg this.

And I hitch out to the East End of the island and climb in the window of a Puerto Rican family I knew and landed in a laundry pile. And they embraced me. And I lived there with them, hablando nada más que español day and night. Yeah. And so we are fairly multicultural. I would say so. And the singing publicly, when does that?

So you started as a singer. First public performance was in Augusta, Georgia. Yeah. The Masters Tournament. Yeah. So I was up in the States on the road with my pop who had the tic-tac-toe trio. Oh, yeah? And they gigged all through the South.

Yeah. One of their gigs was the Masters, some country club there. So we're in there. I'm sneaked in the joint. How old are you? 16. So you got back up to the States? Well, I came back and forth to the States. Well, I came back and forth the States.

Actually, I stowed away Mark on two airplanes. Can't do that anymore. Yeah, it's a little more difficult. What do you mean you stowed away? You were in an engine or a baggage? No, no, no, no. The first one was Carrabear was in St. Thomas. I jumped over the fence, got on the airplane, which was calling for Harvey McDonald to get on the plane.

Right, right. So I'll be Harvey McDonald. Yeah, yeah. I sat down next to a beautiful little chick and said, if they ask, tell them I'm your husband. Of course, we were clearly not old enough. But she said, okay, this was a big adventure. Right. And we flew to Puerto, this was a big adventure. Right. And we flew to Puerto Rico and got off the plane.

And in Puerto Rico, because I'd lived in Puerto Rico now for a number of years and lived with the Puerto Rican family, so it wasn't clear whether I was Irish or Puerto Rican. Yeah. clear whether I was Irish or Puerto Rican. And so I ran into an old borrachon, an old drinking dude, with a bottle of rum in a paper bag who was on his way to Nueva York and recognized a kindred spirit. So we had some rum together,

and then I set out to find me next leg of the trip which uh uh went down the stairs out to the tarmac there was an eastern airlines yeah being cleaned up and gassed up i went on there and uh stashed myself in uh in the bathroom and rolling down the runway. This is flight blah, blah. I think I'm going to New York or Miami. Bound for Baltimore, Philadelphia was November, late November. Yeah. Anyway, so I came out and sat down next to a dude who was very nervous, a gay cat who

was very nervous that he'd be accused of kidnapping me. Uh-huh. I was very nervous, a gay cat who was very nervous that he'd be accused of kidnapping me. I was a very pretty kid. So he was dead scared that he'd be accused of kidnapping me or molestation if we got to America. Down in the island, that was no concern. So he ratted you out? No, no, no, no.

He was just... Scared? He was just very uptight the entire flight. And you made it, though. I did make it. So we made it to Baltimore, and I'm dressed in dungarees and a flipped-out out pre-psychedelic, psychedelic shirt. And I'm brown as a coconut and I have some no socks and some loafers or something on. Clearly not a Baltimore boy.

Yeah. But the police snagged me thinking that I was a runaway from a juvenile home in Baltimore. I had them convince that I was a Puerto Rican who had gotten on the wrong plane and was supposed to be going to Miami. He no habla habla ingles. Oh, yeah. No, no, no puedo hablar ingles. So I had them about to send me down to Miami,

but they called me dear mother, and she loved her bonehead boy. And he went back? Yeah, they sent me back. So how did you eventually make your way to New York? On a sailboat. I signed on as what we call a bilge rat. And you're 16? No, at 18 I came.

When you could legally do it. 50 foot sloop. But I'd get in trouble with the law. I was early onset alcoholism. Yeah. And I was a little white boy that had to create a reputation and defend it, or I'd be fish meal. So I had a reputation. I was singing.

People knew that I was a gifted singer. And you had a band? Not yet. A little later, we were called the urchins and that was in uh st thomas yeah uh anyway so i was up in the states in uh augusta and um pop was playing the thing and he told somebody his son fidel um can we speak yeahic? Sure. They call me Fidel the fucking Bomptower from the islands. Yeah. Because I was an advocate for Fidel and revolution.

Oh, were you? Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. Your early radical commie. Well, you know, he didn't play this comic card until a little later. He overthrew Bautista, who was a bad guy. Yeah.

And the whole exploitive society, man, it was terrible. Yeah. And lots of those folks wound up in Miami and are the right wing down in Miami. Yeah. right wing sure down in miami yeah so in the early times young dudes were thinking oh yeah this is this is a great change for cuba and the people there anyway so we're we're there in augusta and georgia georgia yeah yeah at the masters tournament right and so me pop told this guy oh yeah fidel's a great singer he yeah, let me hear him sing something. I'll give him $20 if he'll sing. So I pretended to be able to play the stand-up bass. And I could fake it fairly well. And so I sang I Left My Heart in San Francisco. Really? Yeah. Playing

the bass with the trio. And the guy gave me $20. That was it. Yeah, you were in. Easiest money I ever made in my life. And the waitresses were winking. Uh-huh. You were like, this is it. Music's the ticket. This is it. So you go back, you start a band?

Yeah. A trio called the Urchins. And what was the music? Well, my favorite group was the Drifters. Oh, yeah. Benny King. Sure, yeah. And there was an awful lot of Chalipso and Latin influence in that.

There was, yeah. Like Under the Boardwalk? Under the Boardwalk is one of theirs, but it's at the way end after Benny King had left. Oh, it is. So what was Stand By Me, Benny King? Stand By Me was Benny King, Spanish Harlem. Oh, yeah. This Magic Moment.

Oh, yeah. Save the Last Dance for Me. Oh, my God. Young Boy Blues. Yeah, yeah. Fabulous stuff. On Broadway. Oh, and getting choked up.

Up on the roof. Oh, my God, so many. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the little, but in the islands, Mark, we had one radio station. Sure. It had to play music for everyone. So our station played hillbilly music,

Voice of America, Army brass bands. So it was a big expat community down there? A fairly large one, but not just American. I mean, there were Europeans. Right. And the VI, St. Thomas in particular, has been a crossroads because of the harbor forever. Right. So all of that, all of those are my musical influences.

And you'll hear it in the work I do. Oh, yeah. On South Atlantic Blues, like every, the horn section, you got Calypso and then you got the R&B horns. Yeah, yeah. And then you got the sort of trippy kind of lyrical way you sing. Like it's all infused. Like what's really amazing on the record is that you can hear benny king in you yeah right those spaces yeah yeah yeah so benny king was just a

master phraser my pop yeah was a master phraser and and i've tried to you know to make it a sort of specialty so you're playing that kind of stuff with the urchins. With that and folk. Right. Where have all the flowers gone? Sure. There's an R&B sort of... Rocking it up a little.

Yeah, yeah. I caught the eye of a sort of Montan wench at a place called Duffy's. Yeah. Down there. At a place called Duffy's. Yeah. Down there.

So we bumped lips and hips and resulted in a child, Stephen, who I had no idea existed. Until recently. Stephen Merritt. Yeah. From the magnetic field. Yeah. So that was a one night. You were how old? 18?

17. 17. Yeah, yeah. It wasn was a one night that you were how old? 18? 17. 17. Yeah, yeah. And you, but you had. It wasn't a one night. Oh, no. We were together for a few months, maybe. Okay.

Not long enough to know you had a kid coming. Oh, no. Uh-huh. No, no. Anyway, so she went back to the States. The other people from the merchants went back, and I signed on as a deckhand on the success. To get up there, primarily. Heading for the States, yeah.

You couldn't just go because your dad couldn't get you in? You had to figure out how to work to get up there? What was the idea? Well, I'd gone back and forth so many times, either on his dime or my mother's dime or stowing away, like I told you, that it was sort of tired of me coming and going. I mean, every time I came up,

you thought, well, Fidel's going to go to school and get real. But I was real, and we were just in an entirely different reality in the islands. Right. So I came up on the success and got a gig singing in Fort Lauderdale, House of Pegasus. Fort Lauderdale, House of Pegasus. A small group of girls formed a Scott Fagan fan club and scribbled up $50 and bought me a bus ticket to New York. No kidding. Oh, yeah.

You were a charmer. I was very pretty, and I sang really sweetly. Yeah, and that'll do it. And I liked them and they liked me and that was the whole story. Yeah. And maybe there was some jealousy in the fan club and maybe the best thing to do is get rid of this guy.

Send him to New York. Anyway, so they did that. And my mother had a friend who had a friend of a friend of the ex-wife of a cousin-in-law or something. Whose friend wrote songs sometimes with a guy named Doc Pompous or something. Doc Pompous. Yes. And she said, take this phone number and call when you get to New York. And I wasn't inclined to do anything that an adult suggested,

but I took the number with me. Not knowing who Doc Pompous was? No. Uh-huh. Although I had a Benny King album sitting there. Right. You could have. I never looked at who wrote anything.

Yeah. So I get there and I call this number. Yeah. And he says, oh, okay, come on over. Let me see what you got. This is the guy, not Doc. No, this is Doc. Oh, you got Doc's number and you call him up.

All right. Yeah, that's the number my mother gave me was Doc's number no kidding doc pompous that's what that's what you called him well i did three times before i really got the correction now where was he when he went to see him um at the forest hotel on 49th street just across the street from the brill building and he was a big presence that guy right he was a big presence, that guy, right? He was a big presence. Yeah. Literally also. Right.

He was sitting naked in the middle of a huge double bed. Yeah. Wrapped up in a toga. I mean, a sheet. Really? Oh, yeah. Smoking a cigar? Probably.

Yeah. So he says, come on, let me see what you got. Let me see what you got. So there's a piano bench at the end of the bed. Yeah. So he says, come on, let me see what you got. Let me see what you got. So there's a piano bench at the end of the bed. Yeah. Where Mark Chulman had written all these melodies and blah, blah. His writing partner, right. And the warlets are right behind him there.

The hits. They wrote this magic moment, right? Oh, God. They wrote Teenager in Love. Oh, yeah. Viva Las Vegas, Little Sister, all kinds of stuff. Anyway, let me see what you got. So I sit there and have my little guitar,

and I sing him three songs. And at the end, he says, takes a beat, tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to assign you to personal management. I'm going to assign you to the production company go downstairs and tell them to give you a room come on back here let's get started really just like that and you were what 19 uh a few days into 19 yeah and you had no at that moment you still didn't know who you were reckoning with. Well, not really. I understood now that Doc was an important songwriter,

but I had no idea of the depth of the catalog, and I didn't know anything about his partner, Mort Chuman, and Mort and I became very close, And Mort and I became very close. And Doc and I were very close. No, I lived in a magical parallel universe. Down in the islands, on the sailboat, with chicks. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah.

Right. You were like pre-hippie, free liver. Well, we were definitely free spirit. And these were maybe the earliest days of hippiedom. Yeah. Duffy's was hippie central. Right. For the Caribbean.

Right. Just a fantastic place. So as the relationship evolved, so you get to work, you get your room, you get your management, you get to your whatever. So when did... I thought, of course, this is the way it's supposed to happen. Of course it happened like this. Sure. Yeah, I got a little lucky. But anyway, I had no idea what a score.

So how did the relationship evolve between you and Doc and Mort? I mean, you go up there, and when did it start becoming apparent to you? What did you learn? Well, he said, go get there, and when did it start becoming apparent to you? What did you learn? Well, he said, go get the room and come back here. Let's get started. Yeah. So that's what I did. I mean, I put my little suitcase down in there,

basically sand and rocks in it, and came back and uh and um doc was the central attraction in the forest hotel uh-huh uh he sent me over to he lived there yeah he did yeah uh this is the build this is the hotel that damon runyon lived in okay you know damon runyon yeah and he's right across from the Brill Building. Let's go over there. So I went over up to the Hill and Range. Paul Case was the professional manager there. Go introduce yourself to Paul Case, blah, blah. Let him show you around. Come back over. If Doc was at a writing session, I was to participate in that.

If there was a song to be demoed, I was the guy that... Sang it? And sang it, yeah, yeah. They wanted me to get accustomed to working in the studio right away. You know, studios can be fairly stressful. That clock is on the wall. Yeah. They got an hour, you better come out of here with three tunes.

Is the studio in the Brill Building no uh at associated um above the metropole metropole was a uh interesting jazz bar on seventh avenue yeah um upstairs was associated sound so lots of those hits were were originally done there most of the uh the the the pumumice and Schumann hits were done there, and what, Lieber and Stoller and stuff? All of them, yeah. So what was actually going on in the Brill Building when you went over there? I mean, what year is this, 19...

64. Oh, my God. October, late September, October. And when you went over there, did you feel the juice? I mean, was there a lot going on? Oh, yeah. Yeah? You know, Lieber and Stoller wrote every tune that Doc and Morty didn't write.

Right. And Carole King, Goffin and King. That Goffin and King didn't write. Right. So they were all over there. Yeah, yeah. Neil Diamond. Well, Neil came a little later okay okay um and it wasn't with goffin and king was had a different producer another uh male female songwriting team i'm not

i'm not recollecting right now so those those are the power players certainly of the the late 50s right and um and uh and jerry ragavoy mm-hmm uh jerry wrote cry cry baby yeah yeah uh wrote peace of my heart oh my god um so janice joplin just tore that one up, huh? Oh, yeah. Holy shit. So very quickly, I came in with the title, Cry Tell My Tears Run Dry. And Doc said, okay, come on, let's write it. So Doc and Mort and I wrote this, Cry Tell My Tears Run Dry. Jerry Ragavoy arranged and produced it with Irma Thomas. And that was a, you were on, and that was a, you were part of the writing crew.

It was you and Doc and Mort. Well, it was my title and my contributions. Yeah, God bless them, man. They got me right into it. Oh. And it's a wonderful, wonderful record. You'll hear it sometime. Yeah. Linda Ronset did it not long ago. Beautiful recording. and it's a wonderful wonderful record you'll hear it sometime yeah

Linda Ronset did it not long ago beautiful recording and this is you at what 20 years old 19 19 years old

yeah yeah you penned a tune with Doc Pumice and Mort Schumann well I was living in the bushes before I got on that sailboat

I know just months ago yeah because like if you listen to the album if you listen to South Atlantic Blues, the current of that style of songwriting alongside the Calypso stuff

and some of the other beats that you pulled up from the Caribbean, there is a structure there that you must have learned from them. That's what I did. I learned that structure from Doc and Mort. When you're a young songwriter, you get a little idea for a song,

and you try to follow it, and you're following the song. You're not clear about the beginning. You don't know anything about a middle. And God knows where it's going to end. Yeah. And so they taught me very quickly. Well, when did those songs start coming together, South Atlantic Blues?

Because that's the album I know. I started writing it right there at the Forest Hotel. Okay. The first song that I worked on there was the song South Atlantic Blues. Okay. And those were songs that you were getting feedback from Doc and working a little bit with Mort? Mort and I wrote a tune on the album Crystal Bowl. Okay.

The others are mine. I co-wrote a couple with a young melody man that had been sent over to work with Doc. Mort spent half of his year in England with Andrew Oldham and those folks and the stones yeah yeah yeah and and all kinds of other folks um there's a whole english music business then sure mort was part of no kidding and he'd come back and uh and and so mort and i were much closer together in age, and when the split came, Doc and his wife were having trouble, and Doc's personal life took his attention for quite a while. And my mother was homeless in Miami. My younger brothers were in foster care, and I was there to do good work and change the world,

but by God, rescue them. Yeah. So I couldn't friggle around. So that was your drive. I got to make some money to save my family. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So Mort and I were writing together, and Joe Koukoulis,

a really wonderful kid from New Haven, actually his name was Silvio Martinez. His mother was a Native American from Venezuela, illiterate, who'd found her way to the States and married a Greek dude named Caculis. I like the name Caculis. So they had changed Jose Silvio Martinez to Joe Caculis. So Joe and I were writing partners, and we were up and down the street.

You'd hustle a tune here, there, the next place, get a $50 advance on it, hope they did something with it, and get immediately to work writing another one. There were seven or eight publishing companies we could hustle tunes to. And you didn't get credit? Oh, yeah.

No, no, no. We knew that. You do not sell your songs. You take an advance against royalties. So you're making money doing that? $50 a tune. Yeah. We're living on the floor of a publishing company

on 57th Street. Yeah. I'm not allowed in there because clearly I'm a rascal. Yeah. So when Bob Hilliard Company, Bob is the guy that wrote this fantastic song, Any Day Now. Oh, yeah.

By Chuck Jackson. Yeah. Anyway, when Bob came, I had to hide in the closet. And at night, we'd come out and sleep. All we had to eat was a bottle of tequila. Uh-huh. Anyway. Fortunately.

Yeah, yeah. So it was good. So we wrote a bunch of really good tunes for South Atlantic Blues for the album so now once you got all the songs for the record what was the life of the record well i was um first we had all these songs yeah and uh i'm living at the earl hotel down the village which is where people that make very little money live. Well, you got off the floor at the publishing house. Yeah.

Moved up. Yeah. Moved up to an SRO. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And gigging at a place called the Cafe a Gogo. Oh, sure. Yeah.

Anyway, there were three of us regulars at the Cafe a Gogo. Yeah. There was Richie. There was Jimmy James and the Blue Flames. That's Jimi Hendrix. Before Chaz Chandler grabbed him. Yeah. So we're all working at

the Cafe A Go-Go. You get $5 a night. One night Howling Wolf comes through and I told you I'm not a fanboy. Right. I'm just not. I mean, I'm not a fanboy. Right. I'm just not. I mean, I'll be a fan of Frankie Lyman. Yeah. I'll be a fan for Billie Holiday.

Got it. But generally, that's not my orientation. Yeah, I relate. So Howling Wolf comes through. Yeah. And does Smokestack Lightning. You know that tune? Sure, man.

So after, I actually decide I'm going to go thank him and congratulate him. So I go, Mr. Wolf, and he's a giant, you know, like nine feet tall or something. Yeah, I think so, yeah. And he sticks his pinky out, which is the size of my wrist. Yeah. And he sticks his pinky out, which is the size of my wrist. Yeah. And that's what you're supposed to grab and shake, that shaking hand. Yeah. So I did that, and of course that cured me for being a fanboy for another 10 years.

That shaking, how almost pinky. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With gratitude. Yeah. So we're at Cafe Go-Go and Herb Gart, a manager, folk rock, folk comedy, comes in and after my set, he comes over to me and says,

Scott, I've got this guy and that guy, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And if you sign with me, you'll be bigger than Presley in six months. Yeah. And I manage Buffy St. Marie. So bigger than Presley was interesting to me. Yeah. But I was a little skeptical about it.

But when he said he had Buffy St. Marie. Yeah. That was it? Just wear the sign. Really? You loved her. Oh, my God. Are you familiar with her?

I'm familiar with her, but not in that way. I mean, it was before my time, and maybe I didn't know what the magic was. So I don't have an experience with it. Well, she was a really interesting singer. Uh-huh. She's a person that wrote Universal Soldier and Kodyne and a bunch of stuff. But it wasn't her singing. Yeah.

She's a Native American, I think, at Cree. Uh-huh. The girl is fantastic. Yeah. Completely magical looking the sexiest looking chick to me oh my with a wonderful shapely bottom

so it wasn't all about the singing oh lord so she was a great singer too but I'm confessing that it was way more primitive for me than that so her manager approaches you and says in six months i'll be bigger than elvis presley and you said where do i sign and i and i well when he said i got i managed buff yeah marie right the idea that i might be in the office with her yeah that's what that's what drove you oh yeah i just it drove me a lot i have to confess an awful lot of my work has been driven

by affection for wenches and vice versa uh-huh do you call them wenches to their faces well with love yeah i call them everything they can call me? Well, with love. Yeah, okay. I call them everything. They can call me anything. Yeah. How many times have you been married? Well, I have five children with four women. Uh-huh. Four different women. I've been married once.

Okay. But this is how we do it in the islands. Uh-huh. That is how you do it. So you signed with him? I signed with him, and we got to work on South Atlantic Blues. Yeah. So Herb was the executive producer for South Atlantic Blues.

He brought in Elmer has this beautiful redheaded girl that's coming to rehearsals. I'm going down to Waverly Place, meeting Elmer. We're working out vocal stuff. And I ran off with Elmer's girlfriend. Good, good move. Just for the night. Just for the night, Elmer's girlfriend. Good, good move. Just for the night. Yeah.

Just for the night, Elmer. Okay. Anyway, so. That was the redhead? Oh, God, yeah. Beautiful, beautiful New York girl. The producer's girlfriend. Yeah, man.

Look, Mark. Music's music, buddy. Yeah. I hear you. And you're not going to say, boy, I spoke to the smartest guy in the world the other day, Scott Fagan. You're not alone, and I'm not sure it's dumb. It just is what it is. I mean, in those days, just the slightest hint of passion would take over.

Yeah. It's not happening anymore? Well, it takes a little more passion for me to lose my mind now. Anyway, so I humble myself with Elmer, and Lord Almighty, we get back to a working relationship. No shit. Yeah. mighty we get back to a working relationship no shit yeah um elmer's committed to the music and committed to doing the job that's some dude yeah yeah he was really something and then another chick

comes into the picture whose wife was this a beautiful blonde woman from ohio who was Elmer's real crush. She'd run off from her husband to come see Elmer and we wound up together. Elmer takes another shot. So... What happened after that one? Oh, God. So she decides she's going back to Ohio and does. So I have to try and reconcile with Elmer again.

How many weeks were between these two? Just a couple weeks because it was the imperative of finishing the record. You're not making it easy. No. Anyway, so I say to Elmer. Don't bring any more women around. And I say, Elmer, well, what can I do to make it up to you? Yeah.

We went to see Janis Joplin together at the Anderson Theater. Uh-huh. Maybe it's 1967. Oh, wow. So what can I do to make it up to you, Elmer? And he looks at me in this dark, scary visage. Yeah. I said, what can I do?

He said, kill your fucking self. I said, well, I'm not going to do that, but I really am sorry. Anyway, so we have to give Elmer a special consideration. Thanks for overcoming his outrage and broken heart and doing such a good job with South Atlantic Blues. He continued on. He did.

Is he still around? No. Uh-huh. No, and, you know, we became great friends, and we were great friends. I mean, I guess he knew look yeah i you know i can't explain it other than realistically um i would follow a chick anywhere yeah well i mean period Yeah. Well, I mean... Period. Yeah, it happens.

So... So you finished the record. We finished the record. Beautiful record. And you both know it's special. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Most folks around are thinking this is really good. So Apple Records is holding it. So they're trying to decide between South Atlantic Blues

and James Taylor's first album. Yep. And it's going on and on and on and on. And there's another very hot label at the time, Verve Forecast, which is the folk rock label. Yeah. And Jerry Schoenbaum is the president of that label. Who's on that label? All of them.

All of them. Tim Harden. Oh. All of them. The Blues Project. Everybody. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Jerry Schoenbaum is the head of the label.

He says, I want the record. I'm going to be the new president at Atco, and I want to take the record with me. It'll be my first release at Atco. They did the Stones records? And the Drifters were on Atco, Benny King. Oh, your guys. So I signed with them.

Yeah, yeah. Fuck Apple. We got to move, you know. Yeah, yeah, sure. And God bless the Beatles. But brother, I'm not a fanboy. I'm not that impressed. No pinky shaking with John Paul, George, and Ringo.

Well, we'll shake hands. I'm not shaking pinkies with them. Okay. And I'm not waiting. I mean, I can't wait. My brothers are in foster care. Yeah. My mother's a homeless woman in Key West or Dinner Key or wherever.

So we signed with Atco. And it's a thrill. I mean mean this is really going to be something and he loves the record and bang Jerry never comes to turn on his own contract after you signed with Atko so boof he's gone off to California to land where I don't know. Did he apologize? Well, I've never seen him again. No shit. He probably felt bad about it. So Jerry's gone, and so our album is now stuck with Atco.

And no support. Well, no. I mean, the last thing anyone's going to do is promote the other guys. The guy that wasn't ever there. Yeah, yeah. And plus they have their own favorite projects. So.

You get lost in the mix. So, well, it was released, but there was no promotion, blah, blah, blah. Oh, God. Anyway. So, how do you feel? I mean, that happens. No, sure. I've heard it. I've heard it.

I've heard it. Yeah. So I felt, of course, deeply upset about it. You think, gee, am I ever going to be able to write this many good songs again? Yeah. Am I ever going to get another deal? And I can't rerecord any of these songs for seven years and blah, blah, blah. And our advance against royalties stopped and blah, blah.

So no money, no tour, no movement. And a baby. And a baby, no movement on the record. Two siblings in foster care, mother is homeless, and a baby. Yeah. Holy shit. So fortunately, we'd interested Bill Krasilowski, who was the lawyer that wrote this business of music,

one and two and three, a great, great lawyer. Aretha's lawyer also. And he got a deal for us at Tommy Valando Music. Tommy Valando was a big musical show publisher. So we're signed as writers there, Joe and I. Musicals. Well, we're going to write songs. Within the first week or so, the professional managers, that's Jay Morgenstern and Frank Military, want to hear our material and get familiar with it. So I'm there with the guitar singing.

Joe, I've just written this song called Hideaway. Yeah. A really nice, powerful tune. Not the instrumental. No. Right. nice, powerful tune. Not the instrumental.

No. Right. And so Joe says to them, I want you to hear this. I want you to hear this. We're working on a rock opera. Yeah. Play the song for them. So Joe convinces them that the song Hideaway

is a piece of a rock opera that we're writing. Got a good hustle, that dude. Yeah, he was a beauty. So, you know, they hear Hideaway, and it's terrific, and, you know. So, yeah, they have the hot new team here. All the rest of the guys were much older and established. You getting paid?

Oh, yeah. Oh, good. So the kid's eating? You getting money to your siblings? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. paid? Oh, yeah. Oh, good. Yeah. So the kids eating? You getting money to your siblings? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah? Oh, good.

When I got the advance for signing with ATCO, I bought them each a bike. My sweetie and I went home. I took my sister back. Yeah. And we made a triumphant tour of the bars and charlotte amalia yeah and and bought the boys a bicycle each and and really what about your mother muds somewhere yeah i don't know where okay somewhere yeah um so you're writing a rock opera well so now we're writing a rock opera. Well, so now we're writing a rock opera. There's never been a rock opera at this point.

There's been no rock opera. There's been no thought about writing a rock opera. I've never even seen a musical except I saw West Side Story in the theater. No Godspell, no Jesus Christ Superstar, no Tommy. No, no, no. Yeah, nothing. Godspell, no Jesus Christ, no Tommy. No, no, no. Yeah, nothing.

Anyway, so we're discussing what we're going to write and blah, blah. This is anti-war time. Yeah. People, we are out on the street protesting, my partner and I, trying to make change in the world. So what we decide we're going to do is tell the story of the music business, what it's really like, what it really does to artists, the impact it has on the society,

what kind of characters are shaping everyone's destiny. And you've got a lot of fresh bile. Yeah, we're going to write this, and it's going to be the follow-up to South Atlantic Blues. Yeah. And it's going to change the music business. Yeah, you got a little bit of fuck you in you? A whole lot.

Yeah. A whole lot. Yeah. A whole lot of that. Yeah. A lot. Yeah. A whole lot of that is soon also. Yeah. Really. Anyway, so we write this fabulous piece of work. This is not an entertainment.

Yeah. And expose of the dishonesty and the ridiculous characters that run the ship. Yeah. So we have pretty much the score. And Vicki Sue Robinson and I are doing the vocals. Yeah. Singing the tunes. Yeah. Vicki is our dear, dear friend.

Yeah. Singing the tunes. Yeah. Vicki is our dear, dear friend. And so we interest Edgar Bronfman. Yeah. The owner of Seagram's. Yeah. And so we've got them on board and blah, blah, blah.

And before we know it, we're in the Anderson Theater where we'd seen jazz. Jazz Joplin, yeah. Doing rehearsals, and we're on our way to the Ritz Theater on 48th between Broadway and 8th Avenue. Uh-huh. And this piece is going to change the music business, and it's going to be the follow-up to South Atlantic Blues. Yeah.

And if they didn't get South Atlantic Blues, they're going to be the follow-up to South Atlantic Blues. Yeah. And if they didn't get South Atlantic Blues, they're going to get this. Yeah. And so the producers want certain changes so they can pre-sell tickets. Right. The ladies that come in on Wednesdays and Tuesdays and Mondays. Sunday, yeah. The nice ladies with blue hair the theater ladies yes and that's a fine thing yeah i know but it wasn't fine in that time

in that moment no you guys had something to say no no no we're serious dudes yeah and that's how we wouldn't make the changes they want sure good for you so uh so so i was doing the lead and um and uh so we were fired yeah and barred from the theater uh-huh um the director who was our co-writer robbie robert greenwald who's gone on to do wonderful things with uh with bravems. He's the one that's doing, he's the guy that did Burning Bed and The Love Canal and all this stuff. And so we're barred from the theater. They bring Gerald Friedman in who was an early director of here

to make it an entertainment. And they fire me and bring Barry Bostwick in who's a theater guy yeah sure and um rocky horror picture show and uh and so they go back into rehearsal and the score it really really is very good um we had the best cast imaginable. My understudy was Richard Gere. Oh yeah. Peter Allen played the manager. No kidding. Yeah.

Vicki Sue Robinson Nell Carter these are great great great. Great. So you couldn't go in the theater but you still wrote the thing. Yeah. Robert is flaming angry. Yeah. Yeah. Robert is flaming angry. Yeah. Robert's father is a psychiatrist.

His mother is a psychologist. Uh-huh. Robert is livid. So Kikoulis and I are trying to talk our friend down a little bit. Come on, man, we'll figure it out. Peace and love and blah, blah, blah. Robert says, fuck that shit. I'm getting even.

So we said, well, you can't be angry like that. He said, fuck that shit. I'm using my anger. His father, the psychiatrist, had told him, oh, you got to direct that anger. That anger will really move you along. His mother concurred with that. So Robert used that, directed, subliminated that anger towards becoming successful. He said, fuck them, I'm going to get even.

I'm going to get successful. Robert won a Tony with Ain't Misbehavin' years later. Yeah, yeah. With N years later. Yeah, yeah. With Nell Carter. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so he wound up at the Center Theater Group here, and Gordon Davidson was in New York, and I was invited up to his hotel room to sing the score for him.

What was the name of the show? Soon. Yeah. So we came out here and did it at the Pilgrimage Theater. Right, 72. Yeah. Yeah. How'd it go over? Oh, really well. Oh, good. But we didn't get it recorded. Joe and I were immediately fired from our writing gig and dropped from my deal with Epic. That was after ATCO? Yeah.

And no recording exists of it? Well, we did a little live recording on a woollen sack and a cassette, a very rough thing, which I tried to clean up yeah not long ago in new york we were in the studio a long time trying to get it cleaned up and um i get a call one day or email from uh you know there's a parallel universe of broadway collectors. That's all that exists in that universe is people that collect Broadway stuff. Yeah. So one of them called me and says,

well, don't you have any recordings of Soon? Can I have what he got? I said, no, there's no recordings. He said, oh, yeah, well, a guy just donated his collection to the Library of Congress, and there's a recording of Soon in there. It turned out that a dude had stuffed a cassette in his inside overcoat pocket and recorded it in the theater there,

and it's full of snuffles and burps and stuff. It's there. I don't want that to be my legacy in the Library of Congress because our piece is sung through. There's no dialogue. Right. And they brought this dude in

and he's stuck in all this square dialogue and blah, blah, blah, and stuff that is to be amusing to the Tuesday afternoon ladies. Which is another reason that absolutely have to get soon recorded something, and I will. Anyway, so I wrote the, I called the Library of Congress, and they sent it on to me, and I have it there next to the California recording. And I think that Chris Campion...

He's going to put it out? I think that we're going to get it re-released. So you do the soon, and that doesn't go. Well, not only did it not go, it sunk my career. We were fired and barred and bang. So we were back to hustling tunes. And after the experience of Soon, Cuckoo has never wrote another song.

And what did you do? Well, I hustled songs, and I sang, and Mark, fuck them. They're not going to turn me around. They're not going to turn me around. They're not going to turn me around. So I've been at it all the time. Yeah. All the time.

Out there singing. Singing, writing, some of every scruffle in the world. I have five children. I had to take care of them. There's nothing I haven't done except sell weed and dope. I just don't do that. But some of everything. What was your moment of clarity?

You know, I am a child and grandchild of alcoholics. So I, through my life and these eight marriages and my mother's, swore, swore I would never be like that. Yeah. I will never be like that. Right. I won't be like them. And when I discovered, look, I had juice next to the bed. I couldn't wake up in the morning without juice.

Are there cigarette butts in there? Too bad for them. Yeah. Are there cockroaches? Too bad for them. Yeah. I mean, my mother died, and I couldn't get sober. I mean, I could not catch myself.

After you moved to New York. Yeah. I was in the islands doing a gig. Yeah. We came back the second day we were back. Annie comes running up. I have my twins, Lily and Archie, their mother's name is Annie. Yeah.

Comes running up and said, something happened in the mud. So we go down there and she has gone kaput. And so I love my mother as much or more as anyone else. But I, you know, I've been on a long gig in the islands and drinking hard. And when she died, I just somehow, you know, our tolerance grows through the years and then suddenly it collapses. And there you're left strung out. You're left addicted with no ability to tolerate or process it. So that was a state.

Of course, I didn't know that then. Right. That was a state. I had lost my tolerance, but I was addicted to the substance. And I couldn't get sober. I mean, people were, I couldn't write a song. I couldn't concentrate enough to write. People were wanting me to do work. Come on, Scott, do a vocal here for us, blah, blah, blah, blah,

blah. And I realized that I'd become that which I despised most. And I'm standing in the window. We had this beautiful old brownstone on the windows around the corners. I'm standing with my twins in my arms. They're a year and a half old or something. And I'm thinking I should jump out the window. And I got so disgusted with myself. My grandfather, by the way, had stopped his car in front of a train and committed suicide when my mother

and her twin were nine years old, and they'd never gotten over it. So I'm thinking this, and I'm saying, I'm completely disgusted with my cowardice. I'm thinking to kill myself and affect all these children forever, rather than confessing that I'd become strung out on the juice and had to let it go. So I decided that whether I never laughed again, whether I never sang again, I was going to be more for these children

than my people have been for me. And you did it. Well, it's a miracle. And when did you find out about Stephen Merritt? So I... Magnetic Fields. I'm in Oxford, Mississippi. What are you doing there?

The mother of my youngest. Yeah. My youngest little girl, Holiday. And she's going to Ole Miss yeah so

my ex-wife Annie calls I just heard there's a kid on the radio

saying you're his father what's going on so apparently Stephen was on fresh air. Yeah. Terry, yeah.

Terry Gross. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And had announced that his father was Scott Fagan. He never reached out to you? No. He just heard it. I think that was his reach out. That was it?

Yeah. So a friend of Annie's had heard this and called Annie, and Annie went ballistic, even though she's my ex-wife and I'm with a new woman and a new child. Yeah. Look, people love each other. Sure. And express it in the strangest ways.

Uh-huh. And I have no animosity towards any of them. The fact is I failed every one of them. Every one of them thought I was the man who was going to change their lives. Clearly he's going to be successful. And I disappointed every one of them. And I wish to God that I hadn't disappointed them. And I hope to God that I can do something

to change everyone's life going forward. Anyway, who's this kid that's saying you're his father? So I called, I tracked down, and they put me in touch with a booking agency in Chicago, Red Rider or something. And they put me in touch with Claudia Gonson, who's Stephen's manager, and the drummer in the band. Great, great woman. And so we began email correspondence. You and Stephen.

Yeah. And he's a great musician. He's terrific. Yeah. But I have to tell you, the music doesn't start with me. Right. My pop was a great singer. Right.

And a great tenor man. But you didn't know this son of yours, and so you're emailing, and how's it unfold? I'll tell you in a moment. But my father's mother was an orphan girl from Scotland who was a barroom singer. Or people that died in the Spanish

flu. So music goes back on that side and the other side and so there's this kid. So we start this correspondence, and they're just releasing this album, 69 Love Songs.

Yeah. So we're in Oxford, Mississippi, which is an interesting place. Yeah. You've been there? Yeah, it's where Faulkner's from. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a really interesting place. And they have the greatest little bookstore in the South is right there on the square. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting place. And they have the greatest little bookstore in the South. It's right there on the square. Yeah. And they have a little ice cream parlor upstairs. It's really a little dish, a little dish of ice cream. Yeah. I'd take my little girl holiday there,

and we'd sit there in the books, and it was wonderful. Yeah. Anyway, so I went to a little record store there and bought this album, 69 Love Songs. Yeah. And I put it on and it was the strangest feeling. Every one of those tunes, every one of the songs seemed to me like something I'd started and hadn't finished.

Yeah. Why? I wouldn't turn it that way. I would have taken it this way, and there's this kid singing in my baritone. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't freaking believe it. I couldn't believe it.

And here's 69 songs, for God's sake. And did you like the record? Well, I did because he's a great writer. Yeah. And I, excuse me, but I like that vocal too. Sure. And do you have a relationship with him now?

Yeah, yeah. So a year or two later, we got his mother involved in the relationship also. That was that woman in the islands, right? Yes, yeah. That you had the fling with for four months. Yeah. Uh-huh. So, he was actually planted on a houseboat in St. Thomas.

Anyway, so they were doing a movie about Doc Pommas. Yeah. And I was invited to be part of that, and so I went to New York for some, did some interviews and did maybe some 10 minutes in the film or something. and did maybe some 10 minutes in the film or something. And so they're going to do the premiere at Lincoln Center. Yeah.

So I said, well, this might be an interesting time for them because the mom knows Doc Promise, and I hear the same structure you were talking about in my songs, in his songs. So I hear an influence of that. Whether it's real or not, I hear that. Yeah. And so I invite them to come to the premiere. premiere and by god i'm sitting there and uh and up comes this perfectly straight looking woman um in her late 60s who the hell is this yeah this is uh i used to call her lotus blossom down On an island. Yeah. She is actually an English teacher, and her name is Alex now.

Uh-huh. And then here comes a kid that looks surprisingly like me. Sure. Not so surprisingly, yeah. With a bodyguard. He's brought a bodyguard along. He's very funny. I mean, he says, look, he was avoiding me because God knows when I might need a kidney or something.

Anyway, so we met and had a great time. That's sweet. And then we met again when it opened in a movie down in a theater down in East Village. And a lot of email and we met again a couple more

times and I've spent a fair amount of time with Alex and we email back odd comments. That's great. Yeah, yeah. We'll do some work someday. Well, that's a great story, man.

And you survived, and you're sober, and you're doing good things for other sober people, and you're still making music, and this record is rediscovered. It's fantastic. And I think that most of my success can be traced to the fact that my mother made me promise to always be nice. How's your voice? Good? Holding up? Yeah, surprisingly well. I mean, I've been singing. I vocalize all the time. Great. I've been singing all through these years. Great. And I'm really happy to say it's really, I mean, this little gruff stuff I'm doing with you,

I shouldn't ever do. Oh, no, no, no, no. I just was curious. It messes with the pipes. But, yeah, thank goodness, Mark. Singing is good. I'll tell tell you scott it's a hell of a story and i'm sure there's a lot more and i'm just happy that uh you know this turn happened because uh you know you you definitely paid your dues man well you know all i did was

do my best and be nice and by god if I knew that was the key to success, I'd have done that long ago. Well, thanks for talking to me. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Okay. I'd go get that record. It's beautiful.

And you can do that today. Yeah, it's nice. And it'll take you someplace and it'll it'll be sweet uh on thanksgiving so again go to wtfpod.com for all your wtf pod needs go to wtfpodtour.com i've got upcoming dates in the spring but uh december 3rd in chicago also come back tomorrow and check your podcast feed for something new we got some surprises every friday for the rest of the year so check it out. I think you're going to like it.

We're going to go into the vault that I didn't even know existed. I'm going to play a little guitar because it'll be nice. Should I make it nice or should I lean in? Thank you. Screwed up a little. Happy Thanksgiving. Boomer lives! Thank you. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th

at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.