WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 767 - Casey Affleck

Episode Date: December 12, 2016

Casey Affleck says he doesn't want fame or stardom. So how's he handling it now that the spotlight keeps getting hotter? Casey talks with Marc about growing up in Massachusetts, maturing as an actor, living in the public eye, having kids, dealing with an alcoholic dad, and creating his performance in Manchester by the Sea. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking here is what the fucksters what the fuckadelics what's happening i am mark maron this is my podcast wtf how are you good morning to you. Good evening. Good afternoon. Hope things are at least livable for you. I hope everything's okay. As okay as things can be. I can't help but be like so much more present. Everything is very visceral to me in my life. Everything's very like I can smell and taste and feel everything a lot better. Especially since I took Twitter off my phone. Number one, reconnected me,

but also the complete destabilization of the planet on a governmental level and in other levels. It's weird. Once that really kicks in, everything is very immediate, very present. The panic and the terror and the anger and the not knowing really can make a sandwich taste better, can really make some eggs pop off a plate for you,

can really make every little thing in your life seem like at any moment it could all be taken away. That said, the holidays are coming up. The new WTF cap mugs are available from Brian Jones up in Portland. These are the same mugs I give to my guests. They go on sale at 12 noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific today. Go to BrianRJones.com to get yours. And we just got in the new Carnegie Hall

posters, those hand-printed beautiful posters from my Carnegie Hall show, which really didn't have a chance to really sell them. Everything moved too quickly. So I got a lot of them. There's a lot of posters over at wtfpod.com. You need to order it by today though if you want those posters for christmas presents get the order in today december 12th to make sure it gets to you or whoever you're sending it to by christmas okay you got that clear also new tour dates hopefully these will be on the site by the time you hear this but uh they're not new Some of them are rescheduled. Some of them are new. I am announcing the continuation of the Two Real Tour heading out into the spring.

I've got dates coming up in Tallahassee, Florida, Durham, North Carolina, Charlotte, North Carolina, Ridgefield, Connecticut, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Montreal, Quebec, Toronto, Ontario, New Haven, Connecticut, Troy, New York, Burlington, Vermont, Oakland, California, Seattle, Washington, Vancouver, BC, Austin, Texas, Boulder, Colorado, Denver, Colorado, Portland, Oregon, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Madison, Wisconsin, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Philadelphia, PA, and Washington, DC. I didn't even realize I was doing that many dates, but I am. I am doing that many dates and that might be it. That might be the last run, the final run. What else is happening? Casey Affleck is on the show in a little while. Talked to him about acting, family, that stuff. I'll say more about that in just a minute.

Oh, and I talked about, this is a coincidence, but maybe it's not a coincidence. I don't know. Maybe people are listening that I don't realize. that i don't realize because after i talked about tom petty being a great american bonding for better for worse not on tom's part of course but uh who doesn't like tom petty if you heard that riff i did at the beginning of the show a while back out of nowhere secret santa sent me uh both of the box sets tom petty and the heartbreakers complete vinyl box sets one and two and it's fucking unbelievable it was like this gift from from the the the i don't know where i don't want to say from god the coincidence is pretty is not lost on me obviously it was just

released and obviously someone in the industry said mark needs this because maybe he'll like it and say how much he liked it. Not a paid promo, but fuck, man, to have those first five records, a new fresh minted vinyl that still smells like the press. Listen into those first three albums for me specifically and Wildflowers in the second box. Oh, my God. What a relief so i'm becoming a a fairly on some level traditional old jew i you know i don't i like to admit it but i think in every every young jew every infant jew there's an old jew just already built in waiting to take over the body waiting to fill it out but he's in there he's in there and conscious and has been talking on and off for

years they they come out in moments where you're like oh that's uh that's what I'm gonna be that guy that just said that yeah he's waiting he's waiting to uh to to fill up this body. I just got to hold him down until it becomes a natural process. But like what you just heard, when I just went, oh God, I got, hold on. I got to sit down for a second. That guy, he's just hanging out waiting so he can be all of me. And as we head into a fairly guaranteed dark unknown i'm becoming a little more suicidal with

my food choices like well fuck it i'm just gonna eat this shit what difference is it i got it you know what i mean why have i been denying myself everything what's the point got to enjoy it now where the joy is uh you know has so much more of a profound effect in comforting me i will go and do like after i did my show last night i did three shows at the comedy store me and my buddy jerry stall uh we have a thing if we go out and do the the comedy he hangs out with me we go to canor's Deli and we sit and we do it we get we get the food and I know like there's things when you go into a deli if you come from that if it's part of your past if you understand the culture of delis you want your thing the way you want it but that is understood I worked at a deli after college in West Roxbury Massachusetts

and the type of special ordering people would do was appropriate to the menu, but each person had their way. You know, fatty, lean, heel of the bread, pancake-style eggs, onions grilled well, no onions. I want it burnt. I want it browned. I want it, is it fresh? Is it from the middle?

Can you toast it twice? The deli was the one place people went to get exactly what they wanted, even if it makes the counter guy, who was me, crazy. I was the counter guy. You learn how to navigate the requests and negotiate the desires of these people. It's almost a Talmudic discussion getting to the truth of the meal for that person. I know my deli meal truths. Okay? I know my deli meal truths, okay? I know them.

And now that, you know, since the election, you know, a futility has descended with the darkness that makes eating what you want at the cost of time off the back end, a priority and a true pleasure and a true comfort. Everything's very tangible, very visceral to me. Now, here's the thing. I made the mistake of not requesting the waiter I like. I don't usually do that because I trust most of the crusty servers at Cantor's.

And my guy, he's not a crusty guy, but he knows me. Now, and this, in another way, is a rite of passage for an aging Jew. Realizing you need to ask for your guy at the restaurant. All right. I noted that. And I will go out of my way to do that now because I'm evolving into this. So I got a new guy. I ordered a cup of chicken soup with just broth and chicken meat. And I ordered a Leo, a lox eggs and onions with well-grilled onions. I ordered a plate of

pickles. I ordered rye toast. I ordered cream cheese and a diet Dr. Brown's black cherry soda. That is what I wanted. That was my deli truth, and I wanted it delivered. All right? Because I wanted, that's what I wanted. Now, when he showed up with my lox eggs and onions, I had spinach scrambled into it and no toast. I lost my shit a bit, but I didn't say anything. All right?

I know that I had that look where I said, what is that? Is that spinach? I didn't want I don't want spinach. And he knew that I was, you know, there's that moment where they're like, well, you just eat it. And I'm like, he knew I'm not going to eat it. So he took it back. And when it came back and when he came back out with it about 10 minutes later, it was correct, but still no toast. So now he started to lose my shit a little more. I went over to my regular guy so I could ask him to step in, but he was busy.

But he did say something to the guy. I looked around. I was pissed off. And by the time I got everything I ordered, there were at least three people involved in the process of getting me what I needed. And even my friend Jerry, he took on my panic. And I think he would have stormed the kitchen if I hadn't told him not to.

All said and done, it was a great Locks, Eggs, and Onions. And the truth will set you free. It's just the age-old struggle for the truth that can be a little daunting. And I'm becoming that guy. Almost making a scene at the restaurant. All right that guy. Almost making a scene at the restaurant. All right. Yes.

I made a scene at the restaurant. Okay. What can I tell you? Folks. I'm about to share with you my interview with Casey Affleck. His new movie, Manchester by the Sea, is now playing in limited release. It's a fucking great movie. And he's great in it.

It's expanding to more than 900 cities this Friday, December 16th. Now, I know there's been renewed attention on Casey Affleck being accused of sexual harassment in the past, which resulted in a lawsuit that was settled by both parties. And there are questions about why more outlets aren't asking Casey about these accusations, particularly in the current cultural climate. Well, I can't speak for anyone but our show, but me, but I can tell you why it doesn't come up in my conversation with Casey, because it's a violation of the terms of the settlement for Casey to talk about it. I was not told I couldn't ask about it. There were no

questions that were said to be off limits for this conversation, but Casey is not going to address the details of the case because of the terms of the settlement. There's not much I can ask if the settlement means Casey can't talk about it. So, and there've been other guests on this show who are unable to discuss incidents due to lawsuit settlements. I mean, it's happened before and they tell us that, and there's not much point in me pressing them to talk about something they say they're legally prevented from getting into the details. All right. So that's what's happening. Now, if you want to view this conversation through the prism of that lawsuit settlement, you can.

The facts of the case are available. I just feel like it's fair to let you know that before you hear this conversation. But now, this is me and Casey. on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton.

The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction punch your ticket to kids night on saturday march 9th at 5 p.m in rock city at torontorock.com you've been out doing the thing, pushing the movie. Yeah. In little movies, somebody's got to push them, you know? There's no one, no one knows about them, and no one cares, and no one goes. Is that true? Pretty much.

These days, it's hard to get a, well, you know, people have said it before. It's big movies. They have a big advertising budget, and they just gobble up all the screens. And, you know, plus there's great TV being made, and so people stay home and watch TV. I got to see it. I saw it in the theater. I thought it was a beautiful movie. Oh, thanks.

What did your lady think? She loved it. I mean, it's like one of those movies where it's very cleverly scripted. The guy's sort of a genius because you don't really know. Nothing is over explained and there's none of that. The actors aren't like talking to explain the story. So things fall into place

where you're like, oh, that's who that guy is after three minutes of not knowing who the fuck it is. But that's... Isn't that better, man? You don't want to just sit there and have shit crammed down your throat. The worst.

That's the worst. It's much better because you're able to have some sort of emotional flow. Like, you know, you... The emotions hit you differently. Like, it's almost like once you have that moment

where you put it together for yourself and you're like, holy shit. Like, and... Yeah, I thought you did a great job. Thanks, man. But you're hearing that a lot. Can't never hear that enough, though. I got a lot to make up for, you know.

Many years where I never heard it at all. So I think I'm still in the red. That's not true. No, not really. I mean, even like, fuck, man. Even in like the Oceans movie, you're pretty funny. I mean, you know, you're able to do comedy. That's great.

Yeah. Well, coming from you, that says a lot. man i appreciate it i don't know uh those were my favorite movies and i didn't actually like doing them that much but really well i mean thank god i got to do them they paid the bills for a long time i'm not complaining about it but if you you know just talking about like they look fun yeah they're they were sort of fun they look more fun than they were it's still a job you still show up you're still doing especially me i was if it's oceans 11 i was like number 11 you know i was like uh maybe 10 yeah and so um it it's really the most fun for the guys who are calling the shots doing the thing yeah changing

the scenes making stuff up as they go. I was kind of stacking poker chips in the background. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you had a little comedy thing going with James Caan's kid. What's his name? Scott Caan. Scott Caan. He's really funny.

You guys were funny together. It was like a little team. I like how in those movies there were little units of people that did their own schticks. Yeah. And you guys had sort of a comedy team dynamic. Yeah. Yeah.

And I wanted to do Ocean's 14. It's just me and him. With no story? Just you reacting to something we don't know about? Yeah, it's just me and him doing all the shit we would have done in the other movies, which is like totally irrelevant to the plot. Right. It has no pointless action.

Are you friends with him off screen? Yeah, he's a nice guy. Yeah? Yeah, he is. I mean, he's on this Hawaii Five-0, so he works off in Hawaii, tough life, all the time. Yeah. I'd like to talk to his dad. His dad's still around, right?

Yeah. Yeah? He's a character. I've only met him a few times, but I'm sure he's got a lot of stories. Yeah, he's got to be a character. He was running around in the heyday yeah old actor guys but this thing like i lived in boston the boston area for where i lived a lot of places in in around boston live in somerville i lived in brookline i lived in um alston i mean i was there from like

you know 81 i lived in milton because i went to curry college for a year and then i went to bu and then i went back and started comedy there so i was there on and off from 81 to like 89 somerville before it became a groovy yeah it's kind of like a little little hard yeah it was yeah but like this thing like i got very nostalgic man like because like I knew those people I used to do gigs for those people I worked in Falmouth I worked in Yarmouth

you're from Falmouth right? I was born in Falmouth you didn't grow up there at all? I grew up in Cambridge Cambridge is right in between Somerville Alston everywhere you were

Brookline yeah but I remember like paying my dues playing places like the characters in that movie would have come to a club that I went to

like a one night or one night gig right if you're lucky yeah yeah right but i know that the type of person like it's very specific yeah yeah for sure in the way that like i don't know maybe i'm making this up but i feel like things used to be more provincial everywhere was more had more culture its own culture right place now the last, since I've been around and the explosion of chain stores, everything's a chain. Everyone watches the same TV shows. Everyone shops at the same gap. Everyone drinks coffee in the same

place. Everything's homogenized to the point of the success of these big businesses, but they're like, it makes everything bland and everyone's the same. Accents are kind of going away. Are they? Yeah, I think they are. I mean, I go back home.

Did you have one? When I was a kid, I don't know why, I always had this weird voice and people would ask me where I was from. I was like, I'm from here, motherfucker. What do you mean? Motherfucker? I live in the corner. But your brother doesn't have it either, does he?

He doesn't have it. I mean, our parents weren't from Boston, so they didn't have accents. Oh. So that's mostly where you have it. I mean, our parents weren't from Boston, so they didn't have accents. Oh. So that's mostly where you get it. Where are they from? I have no idea. Really? No, my dad was in Detroit and Florida.

He moved all around. He was a kid, and my mom was from New York. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Where are they now? My dad's in upstate New York, and my mother's mostly in my guest room. Oh, really? Sometimes I get her to go back to Cambridge.

What part of Cambridge were you guys from? Central Square. Oh, really? Yeah. You know, now all of Cambridge has been, they got rid of rent control in the whole area. Yeah. So that was a really diverse working class area

like Somerville, like all these places. And it just got, when about 15 years ago, they got rid of rent control and a really sneaky legislative move. And it changed the face of the whole area. It's a really rich Harvard and MIT gobbled up property because they could rent for really high prices. And the whole city's changed. So it's a homogenized hipster kind of college thing? Completely. So I was walking down the street in Central Square and some college kid came up to me.

He said, hey, you're Casey Affleck? And I said, yeah. And he said, we're over at the Cantab Lounge having a drink. Let us buy you a drink. Now, when I used to go to the Cantab Lounge, my dad was a bartender. And it was like there were four alcoholic postmen sitting in there drinking. You know what I mean? And it was like dark, depressing spot.

Now it's full of like BU kids who want to buy you a drink. Wild, right? Yeah. But that's a great place to grow up. You did all your growing up there? Yep. In Central Square. Yep.

Where'd you go to school? It was called Webster. It was just a little public school two blocks away then they changed it to um graham and parks named for sandra graham and rosa parks yeah i was in second grade so rosa parks they changed the name and rosa rosa parks came to the school she was looked like she was 120 yeah and we put on a performance for her i did a play it was my first it's the earliest time uh memory of ever being on stage. I was playing a lion, and my mane fell off. I remember this really clearly.

I was supposed to run across the stage, go to the front of the stage and roar. My mane fell off as I was running, and I thought, do I go back and pick it up and then roar? Or do I just roar without my mane? Or do I just run off stage? And so I went back, fucking picked up my main went to the stage rawr that was it that was how my acting career began i was like trying to put together the pieces of a broken some broken scene that was that was basically what it's been like no main yeah man or no man's been that way for 35 years and then i met rosa parks really i remember we all get the line up

and meet her and she pat us on the head and it it was a very, I came from a very liberal, Cambridge was like the cradle of political correctness and liberalism at the time. A beautiful place to grow up. I don't know if the idea of political correctness was around yet, but it was definitely full of liberal intellectuals. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where all that stuff was born, you know, and it was, I'm very grateful for that, man, I tell you. and it was, I'm very grateful for that, man, I tell you. So when did you start really kind of getting into acting outside of the Lion Man thing?

In high school, I started doing it. I was playing baseball. I wanted to play baseball. Were you good? Oh, amazing. I'm sure I would have been a pro. What position? I played shortstop, and then when I got to high school,

I played mostly bench. And that was my first year as a freshman. I mean, we had a big school. We had Patrick Ewing went to our school. Ramil Robinson was like a big sport. 3,000 kids. What high school? Public school.

Cambridge, Rindge, and Latin. Competitive. It was competitive. I was a freshman. I didn't get a lot of play. And then that summer, I was going to play baseball again. Someone came to me and said, hey, we need a boy to do the musical that summer. And so I thought, well, I could ride the pine on another season of baseball,

or I could go hang out in the theater department with a bunch of girls. So I did that. And then that was amazing. What was the musical? It was called Dear World, The Mad Woman of Shio. Did you sing? No, I was tone deaf. It turned out I was tone deaf.

They didn't kick me out, though. They let me stay in because they didn't have any other guys. You're tone deaf still? Still, yeah. Really? Yeah, I can't sing. In fact, I auditioned for a part a couple years ago. I was dying to do it.

And a guy had to sing. Had to sing really, really well. And the director said, we have to have someone who can really sing and play the guitar. I said, yeah, I can do it. Yeah. I knew I was fucked. I knew I was saying the words. I knew I couldn't do it.

I said, yes, I can. Are you kidding me? I've been playing the guitar for years. I can sing. You've never played guitar? Never. And I thought, it can't be that hard. I'm going to learn a couple songs so i went i spent a couple weeks killing myself to sing and play the guitar

learned how to do it you learned how to sing i was like learned how to sing learn how to play guitar i was like i'm i found a new talent yeah i'm uh now i'm gonna do this movie and then i'm gonna book some shows which who's gonna be in my band like that was the idea was who now i was thinking big who where how am i gonna do an album should i just put gonna be in my band like that was the idea was who now i was thinking big who where how am i gonna do an album should i just put it straight online and then i sent the tape into the directors and it was like crickets they just they didn't even respond what movie was it i can't say that man no i can't i can't really it's got to be a long time ago what the hell no way it was recently oh it was recently you know- Is it out yet? Someone else ended up doing it, and he was amazing.

Oh, yeah? Inside Bowen Davis. Oh, okay. For the lead? Yep. Okay. He was great. He was fantastic.

He was a great, beautiful voice. He sings like shit. He could play the part amazingly. That movie, though. The end of that movie is one of the best endings ever. Yeah. That movie, man, I could watch it over and over. I have to watch it more. I don't know what happened to my copy of it, because it's end of that movie is one of the best endings ever. Yeah. That movie, man, I could watch it over and over again. I have to watch it more.

I don't know what happened to my copy of it. Because it's one of those movies, with their movies, like, sometimes it takes two or three times for me to really register the groove. Yeah. You wanted to work with them, though, huh? Well, they're my favorite. Yeah, right? Cocoa's the best.

And you're right. You watch it. Like, first time I saw Lebowski, I thought, that's all right. You know what I mean? I thought it was an all right movie. Are you a Lebowski guy? Yeah. I watched it. i've watched it 25 times i can't that's the one that like i know people are like that's the one and i like watch it over and over again i get it and it's fun and it's funny but i'm not like i'm not as into it as i am like barton think yeah

miller's crossing miller's crossing yeah that's crazy that's a great movie beautiful serious man i love that movie yeah and uh the last one i thought was fucking great hail caesar i loved it yeah did you see it i haven't seen it you haven't seen it yet it's the only one i haven't seen those dudes are masters they can't be stopped have you met him i met him for that thing i sat in a room with him and looked him in the eye and told him i could sing and play the guitar probably the last time i'll get to talk to those two guys. Oh, no. They'll have you back around.

They like that Clooney. Yeah, they do. He's a funny guy. Did you do scenes with him? In Oceans, he would have some scenes in the foreground, and I would be blurry a thousand feet away, if we call that being in a scene with someone. But he seems like a pleasant, he's one of those guys like,

you know, there are movie stars and there are actors, right? Do you think that? Like, he just seems like one of those guys that he's always going to be some variation of himself, but like he can do comedy and he can, like, you know, he's just very grounded or something. I don't know what it is. Some guys just can do that thing.

They're good looking. And then they're just, they take the role role the mantle as movie star and they carry it somehow yeah he does it well yeah he's a good movie star and he's a and i think he can good actor and a good director and you know i mean he's like a smart guy and he's an artistic dude and he um do you want to be a movie star i don't want to be i don't want to be in that sense and i don't think i could be ever you know it's not that i don't i don't have that thing yeah but i don't want that thing we can carry a movie yeah if that's what being a movie star is i can i can carry a movie and i and now i've i played a lot of smaller parts um and i know the whole thing

there are no small parts for small actors but i I think there's, and I believe in that, it's really hard to do a small part. In some ways... To make it stick? To do it well, to find your rhythm, to play, especially in movies where there's not a lot of time, it's show up, do your job, you go home. And you've got to walk on set prepared to really do it.

And so the lead of the movie is often given uh more latitude and and have more time to warm up into things and get it right and you know they might have one or two bad scenes but they sort of drown out by all the other good stuff that they do if you're if you only have three scenes in a movie you know you want to deliver yeah you got to convey a lot in those scenes in some way. You know, I know there's a school of thought of you just be the person in that, and that's all you have to worry about.

But anyway, it's more interesting to me right now to get to play a whole arc of a character, you know, of a character in a movie. Did you have a nice amount of time for Manchester? Yes. You did? Yeah, I was in almost every scene, and so you really

get to be a lot of different colors yeah you know you can be a little bit of purple here and then even though you're mostly brown you can sprinkle in a little stuff here you get to play with nuance in a way that is exciting yeah yeah like like in in thinking about it because like that role had a what it didn't have oh well that's not true's not true. Because in the flashback scenes or before the thing, you were kind of a happy guy having some beers, just enjoying life. I based that on you. Thank you very much.

Yeah. But then you had to do this other thing. You had to shut down. It just shattered. Walking dead, dude, almost. He was more like, I mean, I would think of him as like, it's so funny, man. It was really hard sometimes.

This movie was brutal in some ways because it was, you know, what you had to do every day on set was to carry all of this tragedy around every day, and it was heavy. But it was, and I know people, you know, listening to actors talk about how hard their job is. There's nothing worse than that. It sounds so pretentious and stupid. But the truth is that, you know, if you want to be good, you do have to sort of hold on to the emotional state of the character and just find a way to step into whatever his life is.

And that life was heavy and it was very emotional. So I didn't think of it as like The Walking Dead. It was more like The Walking walking like too much living he was whole it was like a balloon with too much water on it like every that's why he had to keep everyone away from him because he's like any little thing would make him explode you know and um he wasn't going to forgive himself he's suffered this tragedy that's what i meant i didn't mean the walking dead but like a broken heart that'll never heal yeah that's it's it. Yeah. Just the part that keeps bleeding. Yeah.

And like, now when you do something like that to shift from it, I like talking to actors and I think the job of acting is difficult because what people don't realize is that you're going to do coverage. You're going to be there all fucking day to do five minutes. Yeah. And, you know, you've got to, you know, you've got to show up. It's draining. Yeah. And like if people condescend that, you know, like got it you know you've got to show up it's it's draining yeah and like if people condescend that you know like actors you know talking about acting like

it's a big deal it sort of is a big deal because this is what we chose to do it's not any sort of guaranteed living you know and and you know you keep pushing and you keep pushing and then when you get successful you work but it's work you've got it you're up where were you where'd that shoot in manchester yeah new hampshire yeah which is pretty yeah beautiful but you're you know you're in the trailer you kind of you're in the trailer being sad for what how many months yeah two months and no trailer you're sitting on a chair and they're being sad on a chair it's true man that's true. But I also, I love it. I mean, I've done enough other jobs to appreciate, like, okay, I'm getting to do what I like to do. And I could be stuck on a daytime TV show that I hate. And I probably would just stop and do something else if that was the case, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, there are a lot of people who are good and would love to be doing this. And for the time being i get to do it so i thank my lucky stars and then i very quietly grumble and complain to people people in the business yeah about directors or another actor or like how long something takes or whatever yeah like work everyone complains about work yeah but like you so you used to do a musical in high school so what makes you what sells you on the idea that this is something to pursue? Was your brother acting it?

It was just fun. Only in high school. We were in high school together. How old, what's the difference? Three years. It's like me and my brother. Yeah, we were really, we were really close. Still really are close.

We kind of, you know, some guys, like my kids, they're about three and a half years apart and they have different friends and stuff. Ben and i had the same friends and always were kind of hanging out oh yeah yeah oh that's sweet because me and my brother we didn't we didn't he took a whole different course really yeah we're close now but it wasn't like that growing up what do you do what do you mean well he wanted to uh be a tennis star so like he like put his whole life into being a jock and he went to a tennis school for a while and then we went to different junior highs and high schools yeah it just didn't i see i see he was here last night for a minute yeah yeah have you had him on the show no i did i i think we

tried to record it once but it's just it's a little it's a little painful sometimes really well i mean that wouldn't stop me but uh you know, you know, he's got his life and it's a different life than mine. But, like, when your brother's and, like, you know, he, the dynamic between us, you know, he gets, he's very intense, my brother. And, you know, he's always trying to fix himself. Like, he's psychotic. He goes, you know, he's always sort of like, I'm working on my problems. So, the conversation. Oh, shit, I can relate to that.

Oh, yeah? So, the conversation just drops right into that like like just immediately and i and i can do that but like when it's with your brother eventually like last night i'm just like all right okay okay let's just eat you know it's intense yeah it's intense and it's such a bore man you gotta i gotta remind myself like enough oh yeah stop thinking about your your own little problems man there's a world out there what's pressing what what's the big fix for you for me yeah what do you like oh where do i begin i don't know you can make them up i think if you're if you're you're someone uh if you're a problem solver yeah you tend to make problems

that's the trick you stop you know i mean of myself. Yeah, you gotta just turn it off. Be like, you know, I try not to let the terrorists win. You know what I mean? Yeah, in your brain? Yeah. Yeah.

So are your folks alive? Yeah. You should have like a big family show. I used to have my dad on, but I wouldn't tell him. When I used to do a radio show, I'd call him up and ask him what movies he'd seen

because then he'd just start talking about the movies and it was like, it was a film review segment it was hilarious and he didn't know you were not for years he didn't it's funny how you can torture your parents and it just feels so good yeah my mom's all right they came to it you know i haven't they're all right my dad's a little sad but my mom's all right where do they live she's in florida and he's in new mexico i grew up oh nice you might want to which one of those places florida and he's in new mexico i grew up oh nice you might want to which one of those places do you think of his home new mexico in mexico you want to go back

there i kind of like don't you ever well i mean you're younger than me don't you have those fantasies where it's like i'm out oh my god every day sitting out in my car in front of your spot here going like what am i doing here i'm out i'm out i can't live i hate i hate this place i do hate la it eats at you somehow you know everything's an ordeal to go anywhere yeah you know what i mean and like especially like whatever you're going through now for this big push it's just at that part of the job but just going like if i got to go the west side i'm like oh fuck i know i don't want how long is me? You know? I'm going to have to pack a bag. I know.

It's the worst. Spread out. You spend all your time. Listen, there's a million things to complain about LA. Yeah. You know? And I've said them all, I think, by now. But I can't actually get, I never get to the heart of it.

I never get to the heart of what it is that is so bad about L.A. But you came out here when? You said like 20 years ago the first time? I was 18. I got out of high school. Me and my friend got in a car. So you did how many musicals? I did one musical.

They let me stay in the show, but they were not going to get me in another one. How much acting did you do before you came out here? Nothing. I did high school theater. That's it? Well, my mom's best friend was a local casting director in Cambridge, Massachusetts, so she would bring us in for little auditions or weather commercials. Who, you and your brother?

Yeah, all of our friends. Like, she, the casting director had kids, too, that were our age. So we'd all go in just to be kids in the background. Like, if a movie came to town, town right now and i didn't even think of i was being an actor i didn't even know what that was but it was a day off from school and you get back then it was like they gave us 50 bucks and just eat donuts and shit all day and then i did um are you hanging around matt damon too at this point he was older no i i didn't i mean he was like on my school bus when i was a kid you know what i mean your brother was friends with

him no he wasn't friends with me We didn't know him until high school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was older than both of us. Matt's, you know, 59 now, so he's not. Wow, he looks great. Yeah, he looks great. 59, he's got 12 children. He's four or five years older than I am.

I didn't really know him, but I did, I had met him. And then, anyway, so I didn't do anything. When I got out of high school, I thought, I'll be an actor. It's fun. I like doing theater. I like met him. And then, anyway. So I didn't do anything. When I got out of high school, I thought, I'll be an actor. It's fun. I like doing theater. I like doing plays. I liked it all. I guess I'll go out to, you know, Hollywood, California,

where that's where all the action is. And so drove out there, stopped at my buddy's parents' place in Bastrop, Texas, stayed there for a while, and then continued on to- The guy you're driving with? Yeah. His parents? Yeah. In Texas? What happened to the guy you're driving with? Yeah. His parents lived in Texas?

Yeah. What happened to the guy you came out with? He came out. We lived together for a while in Eagle Rock, and then- How'd you end up in fucking Eagle Rock? Why the hell? Oh, because Ben was going to Occidental College. Oh, it's right here.

It was right there. Yeah. And so we all got a place together with another friend of ours, and yeah, that was it. And then I got like three auditions that ours, and yeah, that was it. And then I got like three auditions that year, basically. It was like I got nothing. I worked as a busboy. I wasn't old enough to serve alcohol.

I was only 17, actually. So I got a job as a busboy in an old town, Pasadena, and just worked my ass off, and I thought, hey, I don't really like it out here. I'm not getting any auditions. Did you have an agent or anything? I found an agent kind of midway through the year. And then right as I was packed up and leaving, I was going to college,

and I got an audition for a movie called To Die For, which was a Gus Van Sant movie. So I went and did that job, which was amazing. I had the best time. Where was that job? Toronto. Became really good friends with all the people there. It was the best possible first experience. You were one of the townie guys?

It was like two, you know, it's basically kind of Pamela Smart, right? She hires a teacher who hires kids to kill her husband, Matt Dillon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I remember the movie. Nicole Kidman. Yeah.

And it's Joaquin, and you were one of his friends? Yeah, it was me and Joaquin, and then Matt Dillon was the husband. He was really good in that. Everybody was good in that. Yeah. People were always good in Gus's movies.

It's a sign. Why is that? Because he knows how to take, well, he's good at casting, and then he knows how to take what people are giving him and use it in the right way. I sort of have this theory that you could take a performance and any performance could be cut to be terrible, which would be great. So any performance could be cut to be terrible, which would be great. And anyone off the street can kind of give a great performance or a bad, terrible performance.

So you got that right as you were packing up. Yeah. Where were you going to go to school? What was the big plan? I was going to Columbia. Then I had a girlfriend who was in Washington, D.C. In New York. Then I went first to Washington, D.C. And I went there for a few months.

After the movie? After the movie. And I had a girlfriend. And then we broke up. And I didn't want to be there anymore. And I went to New York City. Went to Columbia. For how long?

Two and a half years total. On and off. I'd go over a semester. I'd go to work. It's a good school. It was great. You must have been smart. Not as smart as the other kids.

I tell you. Every time I thought I really liked some subject, I get in that class yeah just they'd just blow me away bury you yeah this is not for me yeah that fucker up there knows everything yeah by the end of the semester i'm sitting in the back corner hiding my face what were you what was the what were you studying well you had to do this. Like Columbia's got this great program where they have their best professors teach all the incoming freshmen, sophomores. They have a core curriculum where everyone's got to take the same classes more or less. You don't get to pick a lot of classes. Yeah.

But, which I like. You know, it's the classics and stuff. But then you get to pick one class a semester or something that you really want. And I took astronomy and physics because I thought I liked it in high school. I really loved it, and I thought I was good at it. But let me tell you something. When you get in a physics course at an Ivy League school, boy, you're in trouble if you're not really killing it.

Yeah, I don't have a math brain. Yeah. It seems complicated. All right, so you split, and you come back here? Boom. I was out. No, I moved to Somerville. Yeah?

Yeah, moved to Inman Square. This is after you fucking do- Davis Square. The movie. Yep. Your first movie. Yep. And you're just sort of like, what, you waited around, or you just left?

I didn't really know if I wanted to keep doing it. I didn't really- You did nothing before that? Nope. Hmm. I mean, as a kid, I wanted to keep doing it. I didn't really... You did nothing before that? Nope. Hmm. I mean, as a kid, I did those little tiny things. I did that movie To Die For. And then I, yeah, I was going to school and not going to school.

I was kind of kicking around. I moved to... Inman Square? To Davis Square in Somerville. David, that's where I lived. I was waiting tables in Harvard Square. Oh, yeah? Where?

Giannino's. Huh. David Mamet used to come Harvard Square. Oh, yeah? Where? Giannino's. Huh. David Mamet used to come in there. With his glasses? Yeah, he shouted at me one time. Yeah? Not getting the food out. He was like, yeah, I used to see him at the cigar place in Harvard Square.

Oh, yeah. You know that smoke shop? Yeah. Yeah, upstairs they'd have an area where people would sit and play chess, and he was always up there writing. I've sat there and played chess there. Yeah. Yep.

All right, so then what happens, man? You know, life goes on. You've been working at a restaurant? Working at a restaurant. Where's your brother? He's still out here? My life story is boring, man. No, it's not.

Oh, my God. It goes from busboy to waiter to getting yelled at by a mammoth to school and out of school. Who cares? I care. All right. All right. waiter to getting yelled at by mammoth to school and out of school who cares i care all right all right because then somewhere along the line you become an amazing actor this is the this is where's your brother he's still here what's he doing no no he was in somerville too we all we were all living in somerville we all lived in in davis square yeah we're having a having a blast you know we didn't have any responsibilities.

No one was in any relationships. We would sit around and watch movies and talk and hang out. All our friends were around. We weren't kids anymore, so you kind of do what you want. But you're in Boston area. But you still want to do the same things you did when you were a kid. Sure. It was like eat cereal, play video games all day it was you know and uh in somerville in somerville yeah

um i did goodwill hunting gus van sant again who yeah who did directed today for decided to direct goodwill hunting yeah so um went and did that that was fun fun. It was like, you know, I've been so, so strangely lucky. At some point in the future, I think I'm going to look back and everything will come into focus. And I'll see sort of some system here, something that's happening right now. I don't really understand it all. But I've been. Are you grateful? Yeah. And I've been able to work with my friends and family over and over again

and great directors that I never thought I would get to work with. And work with them for four or five movies, you know what I mean? Like who? Like Gus, that's it. I edited a movie for him, and I acted in a couple, three things, four things of his. Yeah. My friend David Lowery had done two, coming up on three movies with him. And all these people, you know.

Was Kevin Smith a big break? No. It was for your brother, I guess. That was kind of a favor. Yeah. I didn't want to do that. That was like, you know, I was basically an extra. That was kind of a, hey, I'm making a movie. You want to come say a line in it kind of a thing. But he kind of. I to do that. That was like, you know, I was basically an extra. That was kind of a, hey, I'm making a movie.

You want to come say a line and that kind of a thing. But he kind of... I hate doing that. But your brother was in it. Yeah. And that was, I guess maybe that was his

sort of one of his breaks. That was one of his kind of breaks. Yeah, yeah. What was that called? Chasing Amy? Chasing Amy. Yeah. I really don't like doing that stuff.

What? Showing up? Showing up. Yeah, because it's not really what's fun about acting for me I really don't like doing that stuff what showing up yeah because it's not really what's fun about acting for me is not kind of like hanging out on set and hey I'll say a line I don't know I'm not all loose like that

it's not I like to start months and months before and start thinking about what the character is you know to build it you know create it like it's like being on the floor the pile of legos yeah sort of putting it all together and um how do you do that i mean like because i've talked to a few guys about like i talked to who do i have in here i've

been talking more actors i don't think i knew how to talk to him at first uh in the sense of of how they go about their process but lately I've been better at it because some people have a process. But the thing you can't really ask an actor really is like, you know, like there's part of acting that you just happen to be able to, you fit on screen, you can do it. You know, you don't have that self-consciousness

that, you know, like when you said anyone could do a part, kinda, but there's some sort of trick to not paying attention to the fact don't have that self-consciousness that you know like when you said anyone could do a part kind of but there's some sort of trick to not paying attention to the fact that you're surrounded by people with cameras and gear like you were able to find that space i think that's just a gift i don't think you can learn that kind of that focus but when you say you take months like what was the first part was it it Billy the Kid? Was it- Jesse James. Jesse James, where you were like, I'm going to start months in advance and put this together.

Well, that was the first part that was a leading role, the great piece of material, and a great director where all of the work could be put into something. It was a big enough container that i could fill with all the work that i was putting into it yeah before that i would do all the work because i love doing it and that's sort of how i was taught to do it all who taught you man i had this guy in high school who i know it sounds you know it sounds like it wouldn't be um that that impactful thing or or great an experience for whatever reason because it's just public high school

but he was one of the best teachers I've ever had and one of the smartest guys I've known and it wasn't all his name was Jerry Speck he was just a high school teacher theater teacher

and it wasn't about you know teaching he wasn't a guy who knew this Stanislavski and this and that all these other different

acting techniques or acting you know schools of acting but he taught us how to do the work about the importance and this and that, all these other different acting techniques or acting, you know, schools of acting. But he taught us how to do the work about the importance of like, of doing preparation and of asking a lot of yourself and not, anytime you're going to do something, doing it as well as you can.

And that was four years of that stuff. And it really stuck, man. And that was four years of that stuff. And it really stuck, man. And when I would go to do a job, I still do those things that he taught me when I was 15 years old. Like every morning before I go to set, I do the same physical vocal warm-ups. Yeah. The same things. I really, you know, everything that I learned then has carried me through all these jobs. And so all the work, the preparation that, you know, would go into these other jobs before Jesse James was,

I just wouldn't get to do anything with it because I'm just being asked to step up and do some, you know, the material wasn't that good or no one else was paying attention to see what was good and bad in a performance. And so I was lucky enough to get a part with The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford because Andrew Dominick was directing it. He cared about actors and he cared about the difference between a good performance and a bad performance. And then he took everything that I was giving and then elevated it because he had great ideas himself, you know.

And that's, man, when it gets really fun and you think there's nothing in the world I'd rather do than this. When you say you start like a couple months in advance just as somebody who does a little acting myself um and i you know i never really got much training but i you know except on set so like what you start with the script so what do you what do you first think about start looking at them not thinking about the character but looking at them you know the material what's happening in the story what's happening this moment and then start thinking about the character, but looking at them, you know, the material, what's happening in the story, what's happening in this moment, and then start thinking about what does this guy want? Yeah.

What's standing in his way? Yeah. And why does he want those things? And if he wants those things for those reasons, how is he going to get over this hurdle or around this obstacle? Just trying to understand, like, from the inside out, what's happening so you're not thinking of it in terms of how is it serving the story or how is it appearing or what is this moment supposed to be for an audience, but really trying to understand as if it was a real person

so that you can be that real person. And if you've done all of that work, I tend to feel that it almost doesn't matter what is coming out of your mouth, what how you look or any of that shit it's not at all he's supposed to be thinking about you're supposed to be just thinking about what is happening before you've entered this scene and and uh where where are you bringing into the scene what is it you're trying to get out of this person or this moment or what you're caring about what you're carrying those are the things that give a scene like some depth and make it interesting to watch yeah you're like about, what you're carrying. Those are the things that give a scene some depth and make it interesting to watch.

You go like, what's going on in this guy's head? It makes it look like real people on screen, and you're wondering what's happening for them. So the inner life has got to sort of, you've got to put that together for yourself, and then if you're working with that inside yourself, it's going to translate. So like with the assassination of-

Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford. Yeah, it's a big title. Beautiful looking movie. I know Pat Healy. He had a little part in there. He's a good guy. He's a great guy. Yeah, yeah.

Good actor too. Yep. So when you do that character, what was the thing that stood right in your face of like, that's my obstacle? No one's, well, you're shit man i think he's like you know he wanted he thought of himself as being capable of greatness right but he was that he was a little kid yeah and and part of the obstacle was that people didn't take him seriously part of the obstacle was that he didn't know how to mask his own ambition so the people saw a sort of just like oozed ambition and it made people not want to give him respect yeah also um the the his own ignorance about the world stood in his way

he had read these nickel and dime books about jesse james yeah he didn't know you know about a this robin hood figure who stole from the rich and he gave to the poor and he yeah he was this great magnanimous heroic dude and then he but and he believed it you know he believed these comic books and he got and he thought i'm gonna be just like this guy i'm gonna he's gonna and he's gonna see in me he's gonna see this man who's so great he won't be able to miss my own potential for greatness yeah and i get out there and he's not that he's just a murdering crazy aging like maniac yeah um who doesn't see anything in anyone else because he's only thinking about himself and so i don't feel the uh what i was hoping to feel

when i'm around him you're right and and it kills me right and um and i think pretty pretty quickly think okay fuck this guy yeah i feel horrible i feel horrible when i'm around him and now i'm in this position where i have to you know uh i'm gonna kill him like this it becomes the the avenue to to respect and greatness that I see is to kill him. Kill him or catch him. Can't catch him. Yeah. But no one else is afraid of him.

And it's pretty amazing what he did. He was a 19-year-old kid and he shot Jesse James. The whole country was terrified of this guy. Yeah. You know, rightly or wrongly, maybe it was just like people in the Northeast afraid of, you know, the James gang coming into their town. It was a myth, you know, but it was people were afraid of, you know, some, the James gang coming into their town. It was a myth, you know, but it was, people were afraid of him. There were a lot of lawmen out there looking to capture this guy or kill him, and they couldn't.

Yeah. And this kid did it. And was he celebrated? No. He was ridiculed. He was, he was like, the myth of Jesseames was so big that even though the man himself was a monster and even and though the myth even was sort of of a criminal uh people still were not going to celebrate this guy who killed him because we they wanted to believe in this sort of comic book

version so of the story and so the in this you know know, I was the villain. Robert Ford became the villain in this comic book. Right, oh yeah. And they just made him out to be a guy who killed the heroic Robin Hood figure and no one really cared

about the truth. They wanted the nickel, dime book story. And you liked that character. They haunted him. Well, boy, that's a great complicated guy

to play. Yeah, yeah. For sure. The ups and downs in there are pretty extreme. And working with Brad was good? Amazing. Because I think you guys are kind of,

I think when he sets his mind to it, he really can act. He can. You know what's great about Brad is that he has taken his, you were talking about movie stars versus actors. Right. And I don't know where the lines actually is. Maybe it's too simplistic a distinction. Sure.

But there's no doubt that Brad Pitt was the biggest movie star in the world and a great movie star. Yeah. You know what I mean? Right, yeah. I don't even know exactly what it means, but I would find myself looking at that man, gazing at his, he's got a great face. You know what I mean? He has an interesting, he has something watchable about him. And he's also very committed to being good.

So he would take a movie like this three hours, 15 minute, weird, meandering, awesome, complicated, non-Western Western. Yeah. And take no money for it and go get it made. He would use his movie star wattage to get something made. Yeah. And he helps little movies. He does it over and over again, Moneyball.

He helps great directors get their movies made, takes risks. I love him for that. And he's good to act with? Yeah, because he's supportive. Yeah. He's not saying, I'm Brad Pitt, I'm the movie star, this is going to be about me. He's like, he's playing a scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah.'s supportive. Yeah. He's not saying, I'm Brad Pitt on the movie, so this is going to be about me. He's like, he's playing a scene.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brad's the best. Yeah, he seems like it. He's a nice guy, too, right? Yeah. Funny guy? Yeah, he's funny. He's interested in stuff, architecture, different things.

I have no sense. It's weird. You've got to get him in here, dude. All right, call him. Hold on. Hold on a sec. Brad, come in, will you? He's out in the car.

Yeah, he's listening. And then, like, you did the movie with your brother. Now, when your brother becomes, like, you know, for years, he was, like, the biggest movie star in town, in the world. Now, were you, like, were you, what was your role in that? In the sense of, like, did he need someone to talk to? Like, I mean, was it just like, oh, my brother's just working. I mean, he's like fucking everywhere all of a sudden. Did you find yourself in a different position as a brother to sort of like be a confidant or at least have like his back and shit?

I always have his back. Yeah. I always have his back and love him. And we're very close. And he's got my back, too, you know. back and love him and we're pretty we're very close so and he's got my back too you know so we would uh nothing really changed in terms of like oh now i have to be his confidant or vice versa um but um i've been i've had this weird life man where i've seen so many people go from being like i've known them very very well when they were not you know famous and then they became

very successful and famous most people kind of they might have that in one person in their life right like I knew you know I went to high school with Mark Zuckerberg yeah and then Mark Zuckerberg became a billionaire and he's Mark Zuckerberg and then they go like they get some glimpse of sort of what that does to people and and also they get a they also sort of what that does to people. And also they also get to understand fame in a different way, like humanize it. But I've had a lot of that. Like who?

Like Matt? Oh, yeah. I'm going to invite a new him, Matt. I'm going to take a school bus with him in third grade. And so it does a couple things. And one is it just sort of takes all the mystery out of that kind of, like, fame. Yeah. It's sort of, you see it for what it is. Yeah.

Yeah, and you go like, oh, it's just, it's kind of gross. So much of it has outside of you. It all happens outside of you. Because that's one thing I know from being in here and doing 700 of these conversations, is that, you know, guys who were my heroes like there's something sort of amazing because i can't i can't always separate and i'm like if i'm going to talk to neil young or something i'm fucking nervous because that guy all i know about him is any anyone else who likes his music knows about him he's like this mythic guy it's fucking neil young keith richards yeah and then you get in there and you're like no he's just a interesting old dude that's hanging on you know and still doing what he loves to do the humanization thing is pretty powerful yeah

and and it's like it is so different and and i'm always amazed because i still fall like victim of like mythologizing people like you know when you read shit about people because there's always part of me it's like they can't be that weird. I mean, they're just human. What do we think they're doing? But they're not usually doing anything you read about. Yeah. You know, the narratives are created by other people. And in my experience, people are, the public eye gets sort of flattened out into a narrative that's created by others.

And depending on how much the subject of that narrative, the person who's becoming famous yeah wants to really invest their time and energy into controlling the story and their image and the narrative they can sometimes can do so they can control it you gotta hide though yeah some people want to hide they go fuck i'm not i don't want to deal with that at all and then if they do that it's like you're leaving it up to others. And then they're like all the bloggers and people online and people, journalists, everyone is sort of just making, fitting you into this, their own idea of what's happening in the world. It's kind of like what happens in Jesse James.

And I don't know why people still believe it, but most people don't really have time and don't care that much to think about the lives of others with that kind of nuance. They don't want to go like, well, he's not really this or he's not really that. They just want to give me the headline. Yeah. Who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy? Who do we like?

Who do we not like? Who's the bad boy? Who's the rebel? Who's the all-American hero? And it's almost never in my experience from the people i've known and seen depicted one way or another and and and press and media and entertainment your brother it's never a lot of that yeah it's never accurate it's never what it what they really are um but very very very rarely it's usually like sometimes it's too kind the

image is too generous sometimes it's they kind. The image is too generous. Sometimes they're depicted to be in horrible ways. Yeah. And you go like, none of that's true. I'm sure, yeah, as you say, you get to see it, talking to people here. But it's also like kind of a boring topic. You go like, people know. Well, now you're like, you're probably going to be nominated for an Oscar.

So you're going to take some shit. I'll take a ton of shit. That's the thing. Either people say really nice things about you and it's embarrassing, or they say really mean shit about you and it hurts. And I'm telling you, both are not that pleasant. It's nicer to have them say nice things about you. I'd rather be embarrassed than hurt. But it doesn't feel good, when they say say mean shit and you can't go out there and always be out there defending yourself because

you feel like because then you get further further into the soup these people don't know me and then you're standing in the swamp with them yeah yeah um so you have to just sort of i guess accept it and um and uh and not let the terrorists win. So working with your brother, how was that as a director? Great. I mean, he hired me. I was doing Jesse James in Canada, and he came up to visit, and he asked me to do the movie.

And I knew he'd been trying to do it for a while and been trying to cast it. And at the time, I don't think anyone knew that. I think people thought of him only as like an actor from movies that at that time hadn't done that well and so they didn't want to be in them sometimes actors are reluctant to be in movies that are being directed by other actors i don't know why competition or i don't know what it is but um i think he went out he tried to cast a few other actors yeah couldn't, and I had the advantage of knowing that he's a very smart guy with good taste. And so I thought, hell yeah, I'll do it. Also, I just wanted to spend time with him.

It was like an opportunity to hang out with your brother for a few months. That movie was Gone Baby Gone, did I right? It's a great, I mean, it's a great, I don't know. I don't know, I can't remember how much I remember. I just heard your, I heard the Boston. I heard the Boston accent for a second. Right now? Yeah, when you said great. That's a great.

Yeah, fun, great. Great, the way you say great. Great, great. But it was fun. Yes, it was fun. I like working with people that I know. I like getting into it on movies where you with people you're comfortable arguing with people who can argue with love that's how i like to work

yeah when you go like they know it's not personal but you can disagree because you don't have that much time to make a movie and you can so if you can just say you're making a big mistake this is not the way to do the scene you don't understand let me explain it explain it to you. That would be, people would take offense to that. People would be hurt if they didn't know you. If it's your brother, you'd be like, man, shut the fuck up, please. I'm begging you. Listen to me. This is the right way to do it.

And I was wrong and he was right most of the time. But at least we got to the point pretty quickly. Well, what about the clusterfuck you did with Joaquin? You're the best. You just called it a clusterfuck you did with Joaquin? You're the best. You just called it a clusterfuck. That's awesome. It was a bit of a clusterfuck. That's for sure.

What was the seed of that idea of I'm still here? The seed of that idea was a broad comedy, spoofing a... For a long time, Joaquin and I wanted do a um spoof of boy bands yeah this was like i'm talking when we were about 21 2021 we pitched an idea about a like an in sync kind of spoof and we'd always just talked about doing it it was fun and sort of in the same tone as like three amigos spoofed actors right um we never got together to do that um we then it was okay let's spoof an actor who wants to be a musician yeah like the self-importance of actors who come to believe they they're in this this weird bubble of a world of being a you know actor living in la you know and and and not knowing or caring about the rest of the world,

thinking only about themselves so much. And so he decides that he's going to quit acting and he's going to make a movie. And he's so sure that it's going to be this, like, it's going to take the attention of the world. His first album is going to be this masterpiece that he wants to have it documented. He wants to have someone make a documentary about it.

And so he asks his friend to make a documentary about him and follow this amazing transformation from brilliant actor to brilliant musician. musician and over the course of the documentary he alienates everyone his behavior is so horrible so nasty and unpleasant to everyone around him that he alienates he loses everyone in his life until the only people who are left is the guy who's making the documentary about him and then that person

he's mean and nasty with two and finally alienates him to the point where the guy releases a documentary that's very unflattering and puts it out into the world that was the that was the idea yeah and so um we tried to people the crew of the documentary with people who also were going to be kind of cast in a a way, cast members, because the crew of the documentary are going to factor into the story because they go from being a supportive team of documentarians following this guy to being bitter, resentful, alienated documentarians who are thinking,

fuck this guy, we're going gonna show how horrible he is and put it out but they were all in on the joke everybody were all more or less in on a joke but they but joaquin is such a good actor and was so committed to the part that it was really believable you know he was really and we would go places and go to we'd just go to open mics around la go to nightclubs and he'd'd perform, like grab the mic and do, and it would be horrible, and people would boo, and he'd be horrible back to them, he would heckle them, and one moment that was, we had a few things, there was obviously like Andy Kaufman was an inspiration, and there was a moment when Michael Richards, who played

the part on Seinfeld, he played Kramer on Seinfeld. Yeah, sure, he got into some trouble. He was on stage, and someone heckled him, and he kind of melted down and said some really nasty stuff to the people in the audience, racial slurs, as I remember it.

And we wanted to do a public meltdown like that where he just said terrible, embarrassing stuff, Joaquin. And we kept trying to create that over and over again we would go to nightclubs and it never was quite big enough so what we did was had we got him booked him a gig on this nightclub in Miami thousands of people and and I had a friend of mine who since passed away but

was a really brilliant actor, Eddie Rouse. And he's a really nice guy. And he was there. And he was the only guy I knew who could really go into a situation with real people and pull off a scene. And no one would know, oh, these guys are acting. Something's off. He could do it and be believable. And he was in the crowd in the nightclub,

and he started heckling Joaquin from the crowd, and Joaquin jumps off the stage and they get into a fight. And that was going to be our kind of Michael Richards moment. And after that would be the climax of the movie, and then he would sort of disappear. And so that happened, and Eddie did it. And he was amazing. Joaquin was amazing. And, you know, he's pulled out of the crowd.

And he goes backstage and goes to the bathroom. And he's vomiting. And he's all upset and, you know, traumatized. It's just the ultimate low point in the movie. And he's like, and then he disappears. And so, you know, in the story, story he disappears and he goes down to what's supposed to be costa rica it was mostly my backyard here in la and yeah uh we shot my dad played his joaquin's character supposed to go see his father and i had my dad play the part and

um that was the story and uh it became only as you say a clusterfuck because people got caught up in feeling it was real, being pissed off about it, getting hurt by everything that was happening in it and having their feelings hurt. And the media hated the idea that they thought we were trying to sort of pull the wool over their eyes. And we really weren't it was more like how can we possibly afford to make a movie you know with nightclubs filled a thousand of extras it would cost a fortune we couldn't so we had to just play it like it was real and that was how we we did it and it was largely an experiment um that uh you know sometimes it was successful and sometimes wasn't. And so when it was done, I showed it to David Fincher, who was a neighbor and a friend of mine.

He said, meet me for lunch. I want to talk to you about it. So I went to meet him for lunch. He said, I've got an idea. He's such a genius he said i have an idea i want you to i think you should put this movie in a vault and i thought a vault was like uh i didn't know what he meant exactly i thought it was maybe it was like a way of some technical thing you do to a movie as a way of like transferring it to film or making it look

better or a way i said okay a vault let's do it how. I said, okay, a vault, let's do it. How do you do it? What's a vault? He said, no, I mean, just put it in a box and lock it up and don't show it to anyone for 10 years, and then show it. I said, okay, how are we going to get our money back? We spend our money making this movie. And he said, oh, well, no, I guess you'll have to try to sell it.

I wish I'd put it in a vault, man. We didn't make our money back anyway. So that was the end of that movie, and people have asked about it, and they still do. Some people think it's real, and it wasn't. And I guess it was all in all maybe a positive for the experience. But it took a lot of lumps. Yeah.

It took a lot of lumps because of it. Yeah. But you guys are still pals, right? Yes. Very close. Yeah. How come you've never done a movie with him, like straight up? You know, we were supposed to.

There's this Robert Olmsted. I don't know if you like to read. He's a great writer. He's a teacher at Ohio and a professor. He wrote a trilogy of books called Far Bright Star, Cold's set just after the Mexican Revolution on the border of Mexico and the United States around 1916. And so a very traditional script, very conventionally made movie in some ways, very different than what we did. But we didn't come together quick enough.

We had to do it in New Mexico in the summer. So we're planning on doing it this coming summer. This is my son calling. May I answer this? Let's see what's up, man. There's nothing. Hey. Hey, baby.

Your shoes? They might be in my car. I don't know. You don't have any shoes? You know what? There's some of mom's shoes in my closet, I think. They'll probably fit you. They're just Converse.

Or just wear some of mine, man. They'll be a little bit big. You have to have a pair of shoes in the house, man. All right. I love you, buddy. Listen, just keep looking. I'm in the middle of an interview. I'll be done fairly soon, and, man. All right, I love you, buddy. Listen, just keep looking. I'm in the middle of an interview.

I'll be done fairly soon, and I'll call you back. I'll let you know. It's all right. It's all right, bud. It's all right. I love you, bud. How old is he? He's 12. He's got no shoes, he says.

What's going on there? All right, well, we can wind it down. I'm sure he'll find something to put on his feet. So you're divorced from his mom? We're separated, yeah. She lives about a block away, and I should have just told him to go over there and get shoes. They kind of go back and forth.

That's a nice setup. You get along with her still? Yep, we're very good friends, and I love her. And the kids seem to be adjusting well. You know, it's part of life. We got together very, very young and we stayed together for a really long time. But, you know, you're still growing so much at that age, man. We were 21 years old.

Oh, yeah. Your brain still has another four years to develop. At least. At least. I went through a growth spurt 48 i was 48 my brain grew a little more or some things got changed yeah um so we had a really good run and your friends that's such a rare story yeah that's really important you I mean, I want to be friends with her because she's so really smart. I've always looked to her for so many years for advice on different things, and I need her.

I love the books you've got in here, man. Thanks, buddy. You've got the Alcoholics Anonymous. Are you AA? I am. How long? 17 years. 17 years sober yeah good good job you have that in your life oh man i mean i'm sober for for about almost three years my dad was huge drunk forget you know the like bottom but just bottom of the viral terrible is that why they broke up

i mean i'm sure it had something to do with it you know i mean but it was uh yeah he was a disaster of a drinker uh it ruined his life and then he got sober when i was about 14 he moved out here i we'd never left the east coast he came out to california which was may as well been mars and to me i don't know where it was and he went to a rehab out in palm desert yeah like a state mandated like god you know it's basically as a feel of a prison but it's a rehab stayed there for 12 years no kidding and um what do you mean? What, he got a job? Yeah, he stayed there. He could not.

I mean, I think he felt like if he left, he had to be there. So he got a job working there after being a resident. He got a job working there and helped guys get their GED, taught guys. My dad's really smart. And he counseled men there. And then finally he left. That was a big deal for him. And he moved to Savannah, Georgia.

And so, yeah. And then my grandmother was an alcoholic. It's just that my brother had spent some time in rehab. And so it's in our genes and uh i understand it i was going to you know like alateen yeah meetings in the church basements when i was um since i was 12 years old did that register with you the alan on stuff i mean did you get it it was nice because no one else was talking about it and it was a way of understanding what was happening at home. And it wasn't your fault.

And it wasn't my fault. And they would do things like, you know, the kids would act out scenes. There was like role playing as a way of understanding and expressing the things that were happening at home. So you're there with a bunch of other kids and they're like pretending to be their parent and you're seeing things that are happening in your house

that were scary. And so you get a sense of it, that you're not the only one. That's good. My mom would just drive us over there and drop us off. So my memories, and it was always, New England, it gets dark at 3 in the afternoon. I remember just these cold afternoons in the basement of some church. And you're just like a bunch of kids talking about this crap. And it was bleak, man. It was really bleak.

And then I'd go visit my dad when I got older. I drove out here, and that's where I got to know him, really, more or less, because he was sober for the first time. And I ended up hanging out down there at the ABC Club, which is where he was, as it was called. And then visiting my brother up in the sort of more posh, like Malibu rehab. It's just so many times.

Just doing these meetings and sitting in circles and talking about it all. So when it came time, when I realized that I had to stop, I felt like I'd already put in all that time. So I just kind of white-knuckled it at home and imagined myself in a circle. Yeah. And it worked? It worked. But your dad's still around?

Yeah, he's around. He's great. Still worked? It worked. But your dad's still around? Yeah, he's around. He's great. Still sober? Still sober. And he dedicated his life to it. He did it, man. Yeah. I mean, if he can do it, anybody can do it.

It was bad, huh? It was bad. He could not hold a job as a bartender. He couldn't hold a job. He was then a janitor, and he couldn't do that. The only job he could hold was like he would drink. It was to clean up the bar from 4 in the morning to 6, 7 in the morning, which was when they would open if it tells you what kind of bar it was.

Right. So he's just there mopping the place and drinking for a few hours every night, and then go home and sleep it off and drink all day. I mean, just nothing. It wrecked his body. It just devastated his life. And your mom? My mom was never an addict.

All her issue was just like being attracted to addicts. Yeah. How's she doing now? She's all right. She's doing great. You know, mid-70s, hanging in there. She's a great grandparent. It's nice that your old man can show up for your kids now, does he? great you know in the mid-70s hanging in there she's a great grandparent the kids the grandkids

it's nice that they can but they can like your old man could show up for your kids now does he like it's sort of like yeah they know grandpa's sober they don't know him as a yeah disaster no they have no idea what that's like you know i mean they think they tell me like like if i tell a term make them turn off the tv they say they hate me i'm the worst dad ever i'm like let me tell you about the worst dad ever. You want to hear some stories about how bad a dad can be. I'll let you know. For the meantime, turn the TV off and go clean your room.

How did you guys both turn out? You seemed pretty well. I guess, was he out of the house when you were pretty young by the time you got to a certain age? He left when we were nine, but we would see him over the, you know, we would drop off his place to see him once a week. He'd be passed out or like vomiting or all bruised up from some alcohol seizure. You know, brutal things you don't want your kids to see. And you have to spend the weekend with him?

Just for a night. Just go over there, have dinner, order pizza. He sleeps through it. You know, you have dinner and watch the little black and white tv i mean the things uh so pretty rough but then um adversity yeah a little adversity i guess if you make it through yeah it's okay it makes you stronger and resilient in some way and kids are tough you know i would never some way. And kids are tough. I would never want to put my kids through things I had to go through. But if I had to, they'd probably be okay.

Well, there's an element of there's a sort of undercurrent of that in Manchester by the Sea, of that sort of disastrous, like your brother's relationship. Yeah, I knew what that was all about. Kyle Chandler plays that part in the Manchester movie. He's really good. I remember I read Friday Night Lights, which was a great book, and then I saw his TV show. I thought he was really good.

And then he ended up in this movie, and he's such a sweet guy, and he's just very solid in the way that character is, like a solid, decent guy. Yeah. And his one flaw is this love for this woman. Yeah. Who. Taking care of people.

That's it. You know. Right. The classic codependent sort of. Yeah. Yeah. That whole thing was. That thing. That was just mind blowing.

He was really an amazing presence in that movie. Yeah. And then that one scene. We'll in that movie yeah and then that uh that one scene we'll talk a little bit and then we'll wrap it up because i gotta get your kids his shoes is uh you know the scene with michelle williams in that it's just like in the fact that that is like really maybe the most important scene in the movie. And it just happens in passing. Man, we did that scene about four times.

That's it. I mean, when you're making a little movie like this, you got no time to spare. It was just like crank, do it, get down to it. That's why preparation was so important. But yeah, man, sometimes talking about this movie, I get choked up. It's a really emotional story it's so beautifully written and the way that all the characters are treated it really is so much like empathy and love for people and their struggles and sorrows and the mistakes that

they make you know like loving people who have made mistakes and not persecuting them and watching them move through life afterward, like after they've dealt with tragedy and trying to carry on and seeing them carry on in different ways. It's one of the few movies where I've thought like, man, I'm really proud to leave this behind because I feel like people who watch it will think, in some sense, I know it sounds like it's coming out of our AA conversation, but they could feel like, I can do it. You know what I mean? I can carry on. I can. Right. Terrible shit happens to people.

Yeah. And people make terrible mistakes. Yeah. They get by, and it's okay, and you move on, and life goes on. And yeah, sometimes you change. And you change. And even if you don't change, like the interesting thing about this movie, about Manchester by the Sea,

is that like there is resolution, but it's not what you think. Like your character makes decisions. I don't want to spoil anything for anybody. That you feel okay about them as someone who's watching it, and you understand it, but it's not really what you expect.

Yeah, and the thing is that like I'm trying to hold everyone out. Don't come near me. My character is kind of like, please, no one look at me. No one treat me like I'm living. No one, I don't want to be seen and I don't want to be talked to as a human being because I can't really engage with anyone emotionally. I can't. So stay away from me yeah because i'm afraid if

someone touches me or looks at me with scorn or compassion either one i'm gonna fuck fall apart i can't handle it or be the shit i'm barely hanging on to myself here please just let me move through life and don't talk to me and this a kid kids don't hear that he's like i'm not he doesn't let me he doesn't give up you know what i mean he just keeps coming back for more and most people they see in my eyes they're like desperation and vulnerability and they stay away from me and a teenage nephew he doesn't give a shit he's like why why he needs a ride yeah i need a ride get me where i'm going dude i'm in a i'm in a band i got a girlfriend i don't give a shit about your problems

and it draws me out you know it's such a such a beautiful relationship man yeah it was and it was a great movie and you know

I hope it I hope people see it yeah me too alright man it's good talking to you thank you man thanks for having me

yeah yeah okay before we go I i was in nice conversation i thought it was a cute phone call with this kid all right so go to wtfpog.com slash tour to check those new tour dates and all now i will play guitar for you if that's something you would enjoy i'm going to do something on it now joy. I'm going to do something on it now. Thank you. Boomer lives! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream?

Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

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