WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 769 - Annette Bening

Episode Date: December 19, 2016

Annette Bening attributes her longevity in acting to stopping when she wanted. She talks with Marc about being able to put the brakes on her career when dealing with the responsibilities of parenting. They also talk about privacy, winning (or not winning) awards, Warren Beatty, and the many influential people Annette worked with who are no longer with us, including Garry Shandling, Mike Nichols, John Candy, and Robin Williams. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what the fuck adelics what's happening i'm mark maron this is my uh podcast wtf we just wrapped the uh glow series for netflix and it's emotional it's uh i don't know how many of you have done theater or big projects with people or

look i i mean at the end of a shoot you know we're there for three months i'm working with a huge crew with uh writers producers, directors. There was a couple hundred people involved. I don't want to leave anybody out, but all I'm saying it was an amazing experience. It was an amazing crew. It was a completely collaborative environment and effort and you're in it, man. I mean, you're just in it. You spend a few months working on something that is so collaborative and you get attached to the process. You get attached to the people involved. You live in this world of making the show more than the real world.

And it's like a very intense experience. And, you know, I got to be honest, like throughout the shoot, I'm working with 14 women playing wrestlers, mostly that, you know, every day. Another guy, Chris, who played the other guy and me. working with 14 women playing wrestlers mostly that you know every day another guy chris who played the uh the other guy and me and um i don't know it was the first time i ever acted on a tv show in a series where i wasn't playing myself and i had to be uh you know a worker among workers not some sort of uh of occasional prima donna in charge of anything. I just had to show up for work,

and it was an interesting adjustment. But I did sort of keep to myself, and I don't know if that was misunderstood or not. Like, throughout the shoot, I sort of kept a distance from the 14 ladies playing the wrestlers. I mean, I think it was for character reasons, but also, I think, to preserve character reasons, but also I think to

preserve my energy and my emotional stability and my sanity to a certain degree. I mean, for those of you who listen, you know that my personal boundaries aren't that great and maintaining them requires occasionally drastic action, like almost shutting down completely so I don't spiral off one way or the other. But throughout the shoot, I kind of minded my own business and just stayed in the work. I mean, I wasn't a dick, but I was kind of self-involved, controlled. I was sociable, but I think I was a little guarded so I wouldn't be too open. And I didn't want that to affect the guy I was playing.

Maybe this is all a rationalization of me not wanting to be the only guy sitting in a circle of 14 women kind of doing that. Maybe I was intimidated. Most definitely I was intimidated. But I think I made the right choice because I did have to stay in it, to stay in this character I'd created which was a a a kind of um much more emotionally shut down than I was but not he wasn't unemotional you know and uh it was it was very interesting because like my not really my foil but cohort, the woman that I played mostly off of was Alison Brie, who is a fucking genius actress. I mean, this role that she played is very tricky and nuanced, and she did an amazing job. And I did a lot of stuff with her, a lot lot of scenes and we had sort of a dynamic and i was and you know i'm i'm sort of a curmudgeonly character in life not so much here on the mic necessarily but i imagine

some of you can read that or feel that but the deal with me is and i think most of you know it because you listen to the show is that yeah i'm a you know a cranky neurotic aggravated person but it once you get the hang of me, you can see right through to the chewy center, right through the softy inside to the overly sensitive, slightly needy man-child that I am. But I keep that relatively guarded, I believe.

But Allison just fucking had my number from the get-go do you know what i mean she just she could disarm me pretty quickly and uh and i i liked it it made me uh emotional she could access me emotionally pretty easily maybe she's just an amazing actress and and and she just took me for a ride but I needed to be taken on that ride but the point I'm making is that yeah I'm no you know genius actor you know I I do okay with it and uh but the fact is is that our relationship is is is a primary one in the season so it was good that we had the rapport we had you know and it was also good for me being that i'm not a trained actor to have you know this genuine connection and with her and to be working with this great actress and i think it made me perform better so i'm excited to see how that comes off on screen because i would really

feel sad i mean i would really feel shit i would just like working with all of them it was amazing to watch all of them work. You know, I had smaller scenes with most of them, but with her and with Betty Gilpin, I had some pretty, you know, emotional scenes. But all in all, I find myself to be very moved all the time. Like it was just amazing to watch all of them work. I mean, they built this team,

they learned how to wrestle, they trained together, they understood each other. They showed up for each other and they did some pretty amazing daunting scenes, both physically and emotionally. And when I was there, when I was working, you know, cause I didn't, a lot of times I wouldn't be shooting the same day as them. So I don't have any real idea how those scenes, you know, play out. I mean, I read the scripts, but them. So I don't have any real idea how those scenes play out. I mean, I read the scripts, but I'm not good at that. I'm excited to see the final product. That's the other weird thing about doing this.

When I did my own show, I was part of the whole process. So I saw all the cuts all the time. And now I got to wait till everyone else sees it along with them. I got to watch it with them. But my point is, is that I found it all very moving. Like I would watch Allison and Betty work. I would watch, you know, any of the other women work just to watch them wrestle, just the athleticism of it.

And to see them all sort of discover this stuff, like a lot of times on set and in scenes I was in, like with any, like with Allison or with Betty, a lot of times on set and in scenes i was in like with any like with allison or with betty a lot of times like i would get moved and i'd feel myself getting choked up at their performance but it was a natural emotional response also to what's going on in the scene deep down so i found myself stifling emotions a lot of the times because, you know, I had to, but then that is also really what the character would do. So that worked out. Does that, does that make sense? Am I making sense? Anyways, it was an amazing experience. I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be an amazing show. And I I've never been around that many women at once every day ever. So it was a real learning experience for me.

I can't wait to see it, and I can't wait for you guys to see it. Did I mention Annette Bening is on the show today? And I was very excited to have her her and I was excited to meet her. I met her at the, um, Gary Shandling Memorial that Judd Apatow put together. And he had sat me, he seated me up front right next to Tom Petty. I talked about that. And that was weird because I'm a huge fan of Tom Petty. And I just sat there not knowing what to say.

And then I turn around, there's Annette Bening and Warren Beatty. And Annette's like, oh, hi, you know, my daughter loves your show. And, you know, she knew who I was and I tried to keep my shit together and I'd look over at Warren. I'd be like, I can't look at him much longer because I'll just freak out

because Warren Beatty, I have that element. But nonetheless, I approached her about doing the show and now it happened. She's got this lovely little movie out, 20th Century Women. It's opening in theaters on Christmas. It's a great performance and a very fun and enlightening movie, a very unique sort of coming-of-age movie in a way. I think that's what you would call it.

But I liked it. I like a lot of her movies, the ones I've seen, and I enjoy talking to her. So now you can listen to me talk to Annette Ben. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need

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And there's nothing, you know, you're just sitting around, and you go wander around and look at the table. Yeah, like, what's there? But wait, who also reached into this thing of pretzels? Oh, yeah. There is that moment. Yeah, no one's using those tongs. I don't.

I know I don't. I just reach in, get fruit. But when you're on set for months, I mean, do you have like some sort of discipline? Have you grown to have one? Yeah, no, you do. You do. It's like being an athlete. You get the thing that helps you the most

to get you through the longest day. And also you're timing your caffeine. That's key. Really? Yeah. Caffeine and sugar? You don't do sugar. I do some, but mostly caffeine.

And so you want to get that timed right. Yeah. However, the problem is that sometimes they aren't able to shoot in the way that they had told you they would. So then you're all amped up at the wrong moment. And then when they're like, okay, now you're in a dip. Right.

For me, I do a chocolate thing, like where I'm timing it out. Nice. So I get sort of jacked. Yeah. And then a lot of times when your coverage is at the end of the day, you spend the entire day waiting for this. chocolate thing like where I'm timing it out so I get sort of jacked. Yeah. And then a lot of times when your coverage is at the end of the day, you spend the entire day waiting for this. And then by the end of the day, you're like, oh, I'm tired.

I can't think straight. Yeah. Although the tired thing can also be a great thing because when you're tired, your mind kind of lets go. Yeah. And sometimes surprising things happen when you're just like, I don't give a shit. I'm too tired to be nervous. Right.

Or to even care. Do you get nervous? Oh, always. Really? Always. Like, I watched the new movie, 20th Century Women. I watched it and you were very good. Thank you.

I loved it. Did you? Well, it took me about a half hour. Yeah. To sort of put it together. I'm like, what's happening? This is all these people. Right.

And then is there a story here? Yeah, yeah. But I think that's the way it was supposed to be. Well, it's, yeah, he, Mike Mills, who's the mastermind behind the whole thing. Yeah. He, when he, the script was very much like that. He likes that kind of storytelling it's very dense lots of images yeah he's very visually oriented um well it's around my time you know like i'm 53

yeah so like i don't know what uh what year was it it's 79 79 so yeah i was in high school so it was close like i knew what was going on. Exactly. And I felt that way when I read it. I'm 58. So I was 21 at the time. And I was in San Diego. So that made it even more so for me.

Yeah, the house, that dude. The guy. Oh, the guy. Billy Crudup. I knew him. Sure. Who didn't? Exactly.

I knew a number knew him. Sure. Who didn't? I knew, exactly. Yeah. I knew a number of him. Right. They kind of like made it through the 60s and never kind of locked into whatever thing was changing and they kind of- But basically deeply good, deeply like good guys who maybe, yeah, maybe you're getting stoned all day, but you're up at dawn to surf. Right.

Or fix a car. Or fix a car. Yeah. Or fix somebody else's car. Right. And fix a car. Or fix a car. Yeah. Or fix somebody else's car. Right. And maybe have a beer. Yeah, it was sweet. Like the kid I related to

and your character I related to and then the, what's her name? Gretchen, is that, what is her name? Greta Gerwig. Greta Gerwig. I dated her, I'm pretty sure. How did it go? Not in real life, but that character.

Yeah. A couple of those. Yeah, how did that go? Well, they always end up discovering something and moving on. You're kind of like, okay, well, I guess there's nothing I can do about that. So you become part of the growth process. She's amazing, too. In life, she writes her own movies, and now she just wrote and directed her own movies. So she's one of these. Greta? Yeah. Yeah. She's so impressive.

I think this is the best thing she did. Me too. You know, and I've seen a lot of her. I agree. Yeah. Interesting, right? There's some actors that, you know, depart completely from themselves. And then there are others that sort of, you know, work within themselves somehow. I don't know if that makes sense. Sure. Absolutely. sort of like you know uh it's seemingly helplessly herself and this thing just sort of like she was able to turn some knobs within and and really become this character more than maybe it's the most defined character she's i've seen her do yeah maybe that's it yeah i felt that way too although i saw saw something called Maggie's Plan this year that I really liked. Rebecca Miller wrote that and directed it. And that I also really liked. And she was in that. So that was also. With Julianne Moore?

Yes. Julianne was hilarious. She's funny. She was really good in that. Are you guys friends? We are. Yeah? Yeah. I saw her on a plane.

Get out. And I never assume that anybody really knows me. When you reached out to me when I was sitting in front of you and Warren at that thing, I'm like, she's not talking to me. How's Annette Bening know who I am? It was very daunting. And I kept looking at you because you were warm and talking nice things to me. And then my eyes would drift over to Warren and I'm like, I can't even handle that. I'm going to stick with Annette

because I don't even know what's going on. Yeah, add a memorial on top of it. I know, but it was kind of a joyous. It was beautiful. Sweet memorial. But what were we talking about? Oh, Julianne Moore. But she's a great actress, right?

She's a great actress. And that's when I told her it's one of my favorite performances in that movie because there's that moment in the snow when they're out there having this really serious conversation in the snow. And then she starts to cry. She's like, are we going to die out here? That I thought was such a great moment. Now she's her and her Sarah Palin movie. Wow. her and her Sarah Palin movie. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That was a great book too, but she was,

she was, there's something she captured in that that was so human. I loved it. Yeah. But you guys worked together on that other amazing movie. Kids Are Alright.

Yeah. And you were, you were lovers. We were lovers. Yeah. We were lesbians. Yeah. You were the top,

I think. It was awesome. Were you? Would you say you were the top? Does that happen in lesbian relationships? It must. Well, I think that, I don't know. Yeah. I guess I sort of was, although, yeah, I guess I was.

Yeah, yeah. That was a great movie. Thank you. Yeah. But let's talk about this thing because, like, let's move back from the new movie because it seems to me that, you know, parenting, you know, bringing, I don't know how you grew up, but I know from what I've read or from how you act that the evolution of you as a woman has a lot to do with parenting. Yeah. And that weird kind of tolerance and acceptance. And that character in 20th Century Women was, you know, tolerant and accepting, but stubborn. Yes. And, you know, kind of, I think she was probably more stubborn than tolerant sometimes.

Mm-hmm. Right? Right. And I like that about her. I like that in the writing. So I didn't kind of over-determine it or over-plan it. In fact, I tried to do the exact opposite in terms of how it all kind of added up. Because I wanted to do that.

I felt it was in the writing. And also, just as a process, it's more interesting. And I felt Mike could guide me. If there was a certain thing that needed to happen more in a scene, he would kind nudge me in that direction or if there was something very much so yeah so yeah so i like that she's just a human she's not the best mom or the worst mom she's just a mom but does not at any cost want to deny her kid anything right because none of us do but of course we have to yeah and it's horrible there's that one scene where you're like, it's gone too far. It's a bad idea when you ask them to parent him.

Yes. Yeah, that's right. It's like, never mind. It didn't work out the way I thought. So yeah, the whole feminism thing, it's too much for him. Right. When you do a role like this in that you're smoking those fucking cigarettes, the fake ones?

They're fake. The herbal ones. I had to smoke those. Didn't they fuck up your lungs? They're horrible. Actually, they're much better now. The last time I had to do a heavy smoking movie, no, not the last time, but the time before, before, before,

they didn't have as good of fake ones. And I ended up actually choosing to smoke very very light cigarettes because they bothered me less and were less like hard on the throat once you get into the idea of inhaling smoke I mean I used to smoke I like to smoke I don't I love it okay I know it's not anymore but you know when you have the fake ones how quick it comes back like all of it like the the the the stuff the props the light the matches the thing the ashtray yeah tapping it the whole thing uh yeah so these are better they're um i learned about them last summer they're english they're chamomile and they still taste terrible

yeah they give you a slight headache but they don don't burn and rip up your throat. So I suppose if you were trying to quit smoking and you wanted to smoke something occasionally, it might even help you not want to smoke because they don't taste good, but you have the action. Yeah. I'm still hooked. I have the nicotine lozenges and I'm hooked on nicotine hopelessly, but I don't never want to smoke. Right.

Because when I smoked for this role, it's just so second nature. Yeah so second nature and i smoked since i was 14 for like 20 years right and it was always part of me and it's it's weird when you see a box of cigarettes you're like that used to be every day my whole life was sort of like one way i wake up and have one of those i gotta buy one of those oh yeah and it goes with all the various actions yes have a cup a cup of coffee, have a cigarette. Oh, it's the best. Pass a wine, have a cigarette. Yeah, yeah. Have a cigarette. After this, have a cigarette.

Before that, have a cigarette. How long have you been off them? Oh, a long time, since I, you know, or 30s, since I was like probably 30-something. Yeah, yeah.

So like, in terms of like this character and that kind of parenting, like, what was your evolution? How were you brought up? My parents are still alive. My dad is 90.

My mom is 87. They've been married 66 years. And they live in the same house I grew up in since I was 10. And when I go and visit, I sleep in my bedroom. Stop it. Like from when I was a little kid. Yeah. Okay.

So they were from Iowa. kid yeah okay so they were uh from iowa so very grounded down to earth loving super you know just but you know they didn't do the over parenting thing like we all do now they they were they were wonderful they are wonderful people and they were great parents iowa they were from iowa they had they met and got married they both. My dad was from the big town of Waterloo. My mother was from the little town of La Porte City. Got married after the war. Had kids. Two there.

Two in Kansas. I was born in Kansas. And then we moved to San Diego. Four kids. Four kids. I'm the youngest. And you knew your grandparents in Iowa? I did.

I mean, I, they, yes. I mean, I knew my grandparents. My mom's dad lived to be 100. That's good genes. Get out. Yeah, look at you. 1880, 1980. Wow.

He was staying with us when we landed on the moon and we watched it with him, which was incredible because when you think about it, when he was born, there were no planes. Right. Just like cars were new in a way. Yeah. which was incredible because when you think about it when he was born there were no planes right just like cars were new in a way yeah so anyway he was and he was a he was an interesting guy and a good guy and he was from this little town iowa so yeah they were very you know they were very they were they're conservative they're republicans episcopalian you know we went to church yeah um but that's not a heavy one right episcopalian sort of got a little wiggle room yeah there's a little wiggle room there that you know the rules, right? You don't discuss them. And it's like, it's like sex and politics. You knew the rules, but they weren't discussed.

Right, right. Okay. So they were kind of like, right, just like they're not that political. They never get into a political conversation with you unless you said, Hey, yeah who do you like this year and then they'll tell you oh they will yeah did you do that yeah i still do and what'd they say like uh not this time around but last time around i remember asking my mom so mom who do you like she's like who's that woman i really like her i said um sarah palin she said no no um michelle bachman oh I was like wow okay good to check in on that yeah no they're they're amazing people they're they are truly admirable people what they do my dad uh was in the insurance business and he was a salesman and he was a salesman first before he even in fact last summer or the summer before they took a bus trip through iowa they decided to do that with a group of people and he went to all

these towns and my dad went to the town in which he was first a salesman he was a by no no no life insurance our dad life insurance door to door really and i think that the premiums were like five bucks a month. No kidding. And he started, anyway, so he sold life insurance, then he became a manager. So he was recruiting other guys and managing them in their selling work. And then he also taught selling. Really?

So he's just a classic American salesman. Exactly. And my grandfather was also, he was a traveling salesman in Iowa. Yeah. So his dad was a salesman. he was a traveling salesman in Iowa. Yeah. So his dad was a salesman. He was a pharmaceutical salesman. So he would load up his car and then drive from town to town. Yeah.

So it was. I wonder what the pharmaceuticals were then. Probably fantastic. Homemade. Yeah. Small companies. You know, those were the days when they didn't have the stores everywhere. Right.

It's like. So he just like pharmaceuticals. Like I'm assuming. I don't even know what that would be. Medicines that people, you know, that they had. You could buy over the counter. And that people needed. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For all kinds of illnesses. Right. Right. Illments.

Back when like Coca-Cola had cocaine in it maybe. Yeah. You know. Diet pills. Yeah. Yeah. Benny's. Yeah. De. Diet pills. Yeah, yeah, Benny's. Dexedrine, yeah. Oh, sure, help those ladies out. Here you go.

That's exactly right. So you just grew up in real Americana in a way, huh? Well, so then they moved to San Diego, so we had a couple, you know, the first house we had in San Diego, I remember my dad said, okay, we can have a three-bedroom. Wait, what was it? So that's where they still live?

Yeah, they live in San Diego. We lived on Defiance Way in a pink two-story house with a pool in the back. That had three bedrooms. And then we moved a couple of times. But they moved into this home that my father bought. We moved a couple of times, but they moved into this home that my father bought. He was very proud of the fact that he had a bedroom for each of us because he really hated sharing a bedroom when he was a kid. Yeah. So it was awesome.

So that really was a great goal of his. So that's the house that they're still in, which is in a really nice kind of suburban neighborhood. So is your room still, like, is your stuff still in it? No, thank God. Oh, my God. No, they redid it quite a while ago. So it's the guest room. in it? No, thank God. Oh, my God. No, they redid it quite a while ago. So it's the guest room. It's one of the guest rooms. Oh, okay, good.

So you don't have to kind of go back and, well, I don't know if that would be bad. Did you ever see, what was that Albert Brooks movie, Mother? Where he goes back home and Debbie Reynolds is his mother and he takes all his stuff out of the garage and out of boxes and puts all the posters back up and just sits in his room listening to his records. It's interesting, though, how those memories, records really do it, right? If you play a certain song or if you see a certain kind of fabric. Always, yeah. Or my mom had gotten a, she went around when we moved into this house and bought these awesome secondhand sort of bedroom sets.

And I had a bird's eye maple bedroom set that she had bought for me. So if I see that, if I see bird's eye maple, like a vanity or a headboard. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Go right back. Go right back. So you're the second to the last? I'm the last.

You're the youngest. I'm the youngest. And everyone's still around? Everyone's still around. Well, you guys are going to be around forever. I talked to my brother on the way here. You did? Yeah.

You're all close? We are. That's nice. Yeah. You must have Yeah. You're all close? We are. That's nice. Yeah. You must have had good parents. Yeah, they're amazing. And, you know, they're at a stage of life where there's so much loss and there's so many people that they were so close to that are going or have gone.

And they're very accepting of that in a way that I really, I find quite remarkable. I mean, they really, yeah, they, and they have each other, which is, you know, wow. It's crazy. Crazy, right? Yeah, the whole sort of mortality thing. I guess if your faith is deep, you can manage it better. This is what I'm observing, at least. This is what I've read.

This is what they tell us. Yeah, I mean, either you got it or you don't. I guess you can get it, and I guess you're going to have to manage it on some level if you want to have any grace around the subject. Exactly, which they seem to do, and they practice, but they never discuss it. Like, they're the kind of people, they never discuss religion. You know, they would never, ever posit themselves that way. Right. But they live it.

Like, they do it with their friends. They all take care of each other. And yeah, it's quite beautiful. Were they involved with the church? Yeah, they still are. Yeah. You know, there's lots to do. And of course, at this point,

often they're getting calls about funerals. My mother has also always been a singer. She's a beautiful singer. She was a voice major in college. She sang in the choirs at church. I was in the choir. My sister was in the choir. But my mom also was a paid soloist at the Christian Science Church.

Because in Christian Science, they hire somebody to come in and sing every Sunday. Why is it not allowed? So she's not a Christian science. Yeah, why do they do that? I don't know. Maybe they, I don't know if they have that, if that's part of their, I don't know how Christian science churches work. I don't know if they're singing.

I know there's no medicine, but I don't. Right, there's no medicine. So they bring someone in and they say, would you please sing these songs and we'll pay you this amount? And that's what my mom did huh so yeah i wonder if it's part of their religion not to have in-house singers yeah that's a good i will have no in-house entertainers because i know i think what is it there's certain religions like jehovah's witnesses they can't dance or do holidays and yeah there's some strict rules there i've heard about shut down all those joy things yeah no they don't want to lead have anything to sex, I think, is the point.

No temptation to having fun. Right. So when did you start, well, what do you, what are all your siblings do? Did they end up in businesses that make sense? Yeah, my brother that I was just talking to is an electrician. My other brother is. Does he fix your house? He's the kind of guy, if he comes to visit and you say, hey, I've got this thing, can you do it?

He's the guy. He's handy. He's like the guy in the movie. He's like the guy in the movie. He's the fix-it guy. Yeah. Yeah. And he is very good at all that stuff and very sensible. My other brother is an attorney and he lives in San Jose and my sister is a doctor really what kind of doctor ob-gyn wow only she just she doesn't do babies anymore she just does ladies really she's got out of the baby racket she got out of the baby business it's a it's a very demanding business I bet up like all the time and night and panicky. Where's my doctor? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So when did you decide that you were going to do this, to act? I don't know.

I mean, I was in junior high when I first started seeing plays. And then when I was in high school, I had a really wonderful high school drama teacher, which was terrific. That helped a lot. That changes people. Yeah, it's incredible, the power of that experience. I've talked to a few actors where it's like the tools that they learned then are the ones that they use still. Yeah, right. So I've sort of stayed in touch with her over the years as well. So she was a very big influence.

She was also an actress, and she was a single mom, and she was a really interesting person. So that helped a lot and then i kind of was also lucky i was working i had various jobs and then i decided i graduated early from high school kind of by accident just i had a lot of credits and they said hey you can go early if you want so then i worked and then i went to community college yeah and there happened to be this really these two guys who ran this drama department who were just incredible people and totally loved making their theater yeah and so then i got involved in that and then i sort of stumbled my way into that and i was doing plays then went to

you know san francisco state got a theater degree and then i went to conservatory after that so i just sort of plotted my way along. Theater. Almost like all theater. All theater. And you got it. So there's that whole element of theater when you really come up in that and you don't just come out and take an audition class. Right.

Where. Thank God. That would be too scary. It's so, I think it's very common. No, it is. It is common. Because like I've talked to actors when I started doing the show, talked to actors and some actors can talk about how they do it.

Yeah. But some actors, like there's an element of acting that is just a natural thing. I think it is. Yes. Because like I've noticed it for myself, like, you know, either you fit on screen or you don't. Yes. And, you know, some people fit on the big screen. Some people fit on the for myself. Either you fit on screen or you don't. Yes. And some people fit on the big screen.

Some people fit on the little screen. Some people fit both. And some people just have a natural way about them. Because if you... I mean, the only thing about it seems that with acting that if you're able not to be self-conscious. That's right. And connect to what's happening in the scene, even though you're surrounded by people doing other jobs, then you can do that.

There's no way to learn that. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. That's what it is. Yeah, it's like it's just me and you. That's right. And you're not like, well, what's that? Yeah.

And either you can do that or you can't, I think. I don't know if there's a way to necessarily learn that. I think that self-consciousness, because I've noticed that about comics, and you've worked with a couple of great comics, and some are better than others, but every time I've seen a comic that I know have the experience of having his own show,

it's going to take them a little while to get past that, but they usually do, you know, because we're naturally self-conscious. Yes. But then it kind of gets better. Yeah, people are naturally self-conscious, and so what you're saying is so, that's very eloquent. But then it kind of gets better. Yeah. People are naturally self-conscious. And so what you're saying is so, that's very eloquent.

Also, just anybody, it's a human response. You put a camera in front of your face. Yeah. Are you going to behave in the same way as if the camera was not there? Right. It's very hard not to have a human response to that, which is self-conscious, as you say. So finding a way to free yourself of that yeah like and like i don't know what but with theater when you come up doing you know stage where everything is immediate there aren't there isn't those distractions it's just you and what's going on on stage and the audience you know all the other stuff is done exactly by the time you

get everybody else goes away but there's something to be learned from that, I would imagine, about being in the moment. Yes. You know what I mean? Because stage actors, that's the most exciting thing in the world. It is exciting. And it can always change. And it takes great discipline in a specific kind of way. And also having the people right there.

When I think about the last time I did a play, I think about listening to people respond. I also wore one contact lens, so I couldn't really see them, but I knew I could see well enough to where I could see, but I wasn't being able to actually see them. And then you can also hear when people are sleeping, which is a very important part of it, because humility is such an important part of acting staying humble and that really teaches you to be humble when you hear that that deep deep sleep and or you can also i've been in plays where you could see them because they're in the front row and they're like literally sprawled yeah i've seen that where it wasn't just

like somebody kind of quietly nodding off, but like a guy with his back to the seat, his head hanging back like way asleep. It was so funny. And of course I'm thinking, and everybody else can see the guy too, because it was a thrust theater anyway. Yeah, that teaches you

a lot. But it's wonderful to hear the chuckle and to hear the, I mean, I'm sure you know as a comic, that feeling of hearing someone respond right then or hearing them get it it's like very exciting well it's a it's a one mind kind of thing it's a one mind thing you're right you know where you know you're just it's or it becomes this organic thing this you can feel it all becoming one the audience amazing i just saw a production of othello in new york and uh it's they're very some it, Daniel Craig and David Oyelowo, and there's other people too, but it was so involving. It's in a small theater, you're really surrounding them, the play is taking place, incredible experience. Here I am. This is all imaginative. This is a play that was written hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And here I am completely, you know, sobbing. Well, that's it. The humanity of it. Oh, incredible. You're pretty good with Shakespeare. You can follow it. I love Shakespeare, but I have to study it like everybody. But that's the first thing I saw was a Shakespeare play. So, yeah, that's the fun of it is because it's so intellectually challenging. So you're striving.

You know, it's great literature in and of itself. Yeah. So just aside from the dramatic part of it, the acting out part of it, just the reading, the studying, the absorbing it. Yeah. Yeah. acting out part of it just the reading the studying the absorbing it yeah yeah and the cool thing about theater is that if you got good enough seats you can see people spit you know i remember that i remember when i when i first went to a play i was really struck by that yeah like oh my god that guy's spitting yeah and i and and the vehemence yeah and the like involvement i i

liked it i like that like liked that larger than life thing. Well, I think that's what makes it so amazing. And that's why it's so tricky with other art forms, with film and television, is that the essence of theater is a community experience. That's sort of what it's about. It's a human experience that we're all experiencing in the moment. We're in the same room. you can feel the breath and everything like it's like i i can't really explain it but it's very unique and i don't really do it enough and i've talked about that before but like when i go to plays if they're good i'm always like oh my god or musicals where everybody's like dancing like you know and it'd be interesting for you because you

could actually make that plan like if you thought about it oh, yeah, I'd like to do a play. Think about it and read around. Ask people, hey, what might be. You could do it. You could set that time aside and do it. Make a play. Yeah. Or write one.

It'd be interesting. That that would be. It's such a different experience. Well, it's one of those things, though, with me where I think about doing that. I'm like, who's going to come? And then I got to worry about that. No, you don't have to worry about it because what you do is you call up one of the local nonprofit theaters and you say, hey, you know who I am?

I'm Mark. Yeah. You know, you might even have listened to me. Well, I have this play. Maybe we could do it. Let's try it. Let's work it out. And they have a subscription audience.

So then you just go. Have you seen new plays? Yeah. Yeah. I've seen some new plays lately. They're pretty good. Like, I saw Annie Baker's play. Oh, which one?

Both of them. Nice. With John, is it called John, one of them? And then the other one's The Flick. I saw both of those.

I saw Stephen Karam's play, The Humans. Oh, yeah. I saw that, too. Yeah. It's a little like, it's interesting because, like like when i was in high school you know sam shepherd was the thing yeah and then like then you go through like these like

later you get tracy letts's plays and now like it seems like uh the menace of the family is is sort of um it's a little more palatable right that is like carom's play it's like i know these people it's not horrendous it is a pretty not bleak but there is a dark ending to it but it's not like oh my god i'm leveled you know i can't even function no it isn't like that yeah because they're all too kind of lovable and interesting right and all the acting is so good. You know, you're right. He adapted The Seagull, the play, the Chekhov play. Karen did? Yeah, into a film that we made. So that's how I knew him because he adapted that play, that Chekhov play, into this screenplay that we made.

Is it coming out? Yeah, it'll come out next year, I think. Yeah, so he's. I think he might have mentioned that. He's really an interesting person. Very, very intelligent. And I love how the producers also supported that play. Yeah.

Was it Rudin? Yes. Yeah. And others. Yeah. And they said, you know, we really believe in this and we believe in these actors. Because I talked to the guy, Reed Burney, one of the actors in it, and he told me the story. I have worked with him.

He's like around my age. And he said he couldn't believe it like they were doing it off broadway and they came in and said we're going to broadway and it was like one of those moments you can't believe it's actually happening and then they did and then they were this huge hit and they were yeah they played forever yeah i saw it right before i think it went to the bigger house. Yeah, exactly. And he's the guy that's been in New York doing the stuff forever. And really, I mean, he's a very respected, esteemed actor. And this for him was like, wow. So how do you approach Chekhov? Wow.

I mean, like, I don't even know his shit. I mean, I know of him and I'd like to know him, but I don't know what he's known for, why he's great. Yeah. Well, he, you know, he was a doctor. He's another one of those writers that started as a doctor. So he's turn-of-the-century Russia. He's a doctor. He needs extra money. And he's writing short stories. Right. And he becomes a very, very famous short story writer. Like, super well-known. I don't know who to compare him to,

but a very, very well-known, respected, famous short story writer, like super well known. I don't know who to compare him to, but a very, very well known, respected, famous short story. And the stories are great. That's a great way to start with him. You just get one of his short story books and they're short. Did you do that? Yeah. Okay.

Then he started writing plays. Yeah. He got the theater bug. Right. And he also was madly in love with the theater actress from the Moscow Art Theater. That'll drive you sometimes. There you go. So then he started writing plays.

And in fact, you know, he wrote a number that he died quite young of tuberculosis, as people did then. But yeah, so those plays, what's great is this kind of, they're very funny and very melancholy at the same time and they're beautiful and super challenging and it's hard to get that magical uh balance right but when you see some one of them that they get that right there's something so human about it yeah and there's they're filled with these very very human moments and something can be really ridiculous and absurdly funny and then the next moment something very tragic can happen and getting all of that right is a big challenge that's why people keep doing the plays and they're full of interesting characters and have you seen a cut of the movie

i have i love it yeah it's like a little jewel and that is so incredibly hard i mean because it's a period film obviously and but we had a great the heart of the movie was the costume designer ann roth who's now like 80 something who is a genius and she's been doing costumes forever and ever and ever and we got her to do this we they got her to do this movie i guess it was sort of we. And so her inspiration, it was like food for everyone there. And she, and also our production designer. Everybody kind of put it together. So it looks good. Yeah, but it's done for very little money.

And we did it so fast that, you know, Chekhov and Stanislavski are both rolling in their graves. It's like, wait, you're supposed to rehearse for six months. And we rehearsed like not much at all because we didn't have time. But we just did it. And it was a joy. All right. So how did you move from theater to film? How does that happen?

I eventually, I was doing regional theater. Where? Here? No. I did. I eventually, I was doing regional theater. Where? Here? No. I did. So I was in San Francisco and the conservatory that I went to also had a repertory company attached to it. It's called the American Conservatory Theater.

So ACT is the biggest nonprofit in San Francisco. So then I got to be in a repertory company, which was really my dream, and to do classics and that stuff. And then I did a year at the Denver Center Theater Company. So then I was in my late 20s, and I decided I really wanted to give it a shot. Movies? Yeah, movies, TV. I don't know kind of what came my way.

So I went to New York because I figured maybe I could get involved by doing plays and then doing stuff. Right. As a result of doing plays. Did you have an agent? I did. Yeah.

And then, so what happened? So I started auditioning and I got- In New York. In New York. And I, one of my, I actually, I had taught acting one summer at ACT and one of my students who was my friend, became my friend yeah allowed me to stay in her apartment with her she shared her apartment so I was able to live with her in her she had a pretty big apartment that her parents helped her by and she let me live in her closet so I was in

the closet um and then I got an off-broadway play called Coastal Disturbances, which then moved to Broadway. So I was very lucky. I got a play pretty soon after I got there. And then I had that job. We did the play for over a year. Yeah. So then I started auditioning for anything I could get. The casting directors knew you.

Or they could come and see me. Right. Which is the great thing about going to New York is that you can be seen in something, so you're not just walking in trying to show people what you do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the great thing about comedy, too, is you can always go, I can do 10 minutes. Where do you want me to do it?

Come down. And then your first role was which movie? The Great Outdoors. With Dan Aykroyd and John Candy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was like, so that's what you get cast in on set with those two lunatics? Like a dream come true. Yeah.

And we shot at Lake, Bass Lake it's called, which is sort of on the way to Yosemite. So we're living around this lake in these cabins. And we have to drive around the lake early in the morning to get ready. And I remember we would have to get up, you know, like 4.30 and get in the van. And I remember thinking, this is the greatest thing. You've got like tired John Candy in the van. I remember thinking, this is the greatest thing. Oh, I've got like tired John Candy in the van. He's, he was like lovely.

Definitely had a, you know, a very, he was a very complicated guy. Yeah. Had a very dark side, but lovely, generous.

Same with Dan. Yeah. Like the really wonderful people. Yeah. In fact, I just saw dan's daughter introduced herself to me somewhere where i was recently she was so sweet oh yeah i'm dan's daughter oh my god yeah he's a lovely guy he's very very you know eccentric wonderful it's a john

hughes movie um did he write that i can't so, yeah. I can't even remember. He didn't direct it. Howie Deutsch directed it. But yeah. So I was Dan's rich, not very nice wife. Right. Yeah. Did you have, was it, I can't never, I don't think I saw the movie. Was it a big part?

Was it a good part? Yeah. I mean, you know, it was okay. Yeah, yeah. It was great. Are you kidding? I was like, I couldn't believe it. I got the job.

You worked, yeah. And you worked, in your career, you've worked with some great comics. That's for sure. It's kind of wild. Like, I remember that channeling movie that where, you know, is he an alien? He is. Yeah. Yeah.

It's called What Planet Are You From? Which is what I say to him at one point. We have a relationship. And he's so odd that I say to him, what planet are you from? Yeah. And Gary was a friend. Warren and I had met him when we were doing another film that he was then in, Love Affair. And he became our buddy.

And then he was developing that, and he wrote, and we would do readings. We would all sit together, and we would ask a few people in, and together we would all sit and read it. I loved Gary. He was a wonderful guy. And then, you know, sort of by surprise, Mike Nichols got interested in it and wanted to direct it, which was sort of this, what?

Out of left field. I knew him and I'd worked with him. You knew Mike Nichols? Yeah, I think at that point, yeah. I did a film with him before. Which one? It's called Regarding Henry with Harrison Ford. Oh, yeah.

So I had known him. And of course, he's everyone's hero. So that when he was like, I want to do this, Gary was, what? Wow, okay. So then it became a Mike Nichols movie. Now, as a director, somebody like Mike Nichols, who is this respected, know like respected famous interesting guy both in theater and film what do

you learn from a guy like that i mean because like i i know that from my small experience in working with certain directors i mean you can really glean something of their process and it helps you forever did where Did you have experiences like that? I did. I remember when we first started working on Regarding Henry, I got to the set, or we did rehearse some. So we were rehearsing and I remember thinking, I am so nervous. Harrison Ford and Mike Nichols, they're the veterans. They're the guys that know everything. I'm the beginner. At that point, I'm like 30, about 30, but I hadn't done very many movies.

So I always felt very much like a stage actress kind of pretending to be a movie actress. I hadn't yet really felt totally at home in it. And I remember they were both talking about how nervous they were. And I was shocked. To work with him? They were just nervous because they were good. Yeah. And they're like, you know, they're people that, I mean, I've observed that.

To people that tend to be good at what they do in show business, there's always a sense of nervousness about it. So that was a great lesson. It always stuck in my head. I thought, wait, you're Mike Nichols, you're nervous? Okay, that's the lesson right there. Right. Maybe it's okay to be nervous.

Maybe there's something important about that that you don't try to get rid of. You try to understand, you try to tolerate, you try to use it, but you don't say, okay, my goal is not to be nervous when I work. No, you just like forget that. You don't have to do that. You don't have to worry about that.

You will be, and that's okay. You just learn to tolerate it. Well, it seems like a symptom of vulnerability. And if you want to maintain the vulnerability and not just be this kind of swaggering idiot. That's right. You know, you're going to be nervous. It's human. It's a human response to the situation.

So, yeah. So Mike was great. And Mike was a great audience. He always loved actors. He was somebody who would be laughing and responding always. He understood how to make you feel sufficient. And he was quite hard on Gary in a way that we discussed later. And he sort of, Mike and I discussed later.

And he was quite philosophical about that and we were able to really talk about it. But he was pretty tough on Gary in a way that was hard at the time. And my heart kind of ached about that. And because I love Gary so much, and Gary was very receptive and didn't ever, you know, I remember them having a conversation about my character, that one I did. And Gary was a little bit like, because we had worked on it, right? We'd done these readings. So there was this thing I was doing. And I don't know whether it was any good or not, but Mike was like, don't do that.

Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, Mike says that to me. I'm like, okay. Gary's like, well, hey, can I i just i kind of like it when she did that thing that she's doing because we had worked on this before so they were discussing it and anyway it ended up being a big learning uh process for everyone um and uh ann roth did that movie as well but gary was uh he was very you know, he was a very, as you know, unusual, special, warm, you know, and he had this serious Buddhist practice, which he was very quiet about. Like, he never talked to me about that.

Yeah. And. And so funny. I know. It's such an interesting. Uniquely funny. I mean, we all knew that, you know, he was a monk in some way. Yeah.

But not exactly like. Like a real monk. Because the real monks, they don't like talk about it. Right. Right. So he was a real guy. He was a monk in some way, but not exactly. Like a real monk. Because the real monks, they don't talk about it. Right, right. So he was a real guy. He was a real monk. Yeah, I liked him. He was great.

And a deep league. He was also, when I did Saturday Night Live once, and I was so excited to do it. I love comedy. I love improv. I thought, ah, this is going to be great. I went, and they were all very serious, of course, because that's what comedians do. But I was naive enough to think this is going to be fun. And they were all so serious. And then they were like asking me to do certain things. And I thought, oh, my God, like in the opening monologue thing. So I called Gary

and I hadn't talked to him in years and you know he always had a funny phone message like leave a message he calls me like right away yeah i mean and he was such a mensch and he was so lovely to me and he's completely made me feel sane explained okay this is what it's like that's why it's tough and you know really helped me and i always remember that moment with comedy with doing, like, approaching it? And also, he had some ideas. But I don't know, there was something just therapeutic about being able to call someone and say,

this is what's happening. He's like, no, I totally get it. This is what you can expect. And also, because I hadn't spoken to him. You know how it is when you call someone and you haven't talked to them in a while. Right, yeah, and you're in a crisis. And he just, like, was right there.

Exactly. And he was right there. Exactly. And he was right there. And I was so unused to feeling what I was feeling because generally I, you know, I kind of know what I'm doing. Yeah. Even if I'm nervous, I have a certain like, ah, I got this. Yeah. I didn't feel that.

So he was awesome. That's funny. Yeah. It's a bad feeling in a way. Ooh. It was. It was. and it was an unfamiliar feeling because it was it wasn't just oh i'm nervous here it was like okay i'm really scared oh really yeah who was the cast then um who were the people there kristin wig was there and she was just starting

and oh my god she's great oh my god i am such a fan yeah i ended up we did a movie together and i played her mom but she is i think she's kind of a genius yeah yeah yeah so that was a kick she's like a savant like yeah she is yeah yeah yeah because you talk to her and she's just like hey what's going on oh she told me hilarious stories about starting out in hollywood and she was like an extra in a movie called Tumbleweeds. And she said she was so far in the back. Yeah. And it was a beach scene.

And she's supposed to. But she got stung by a bee. And she had to leave. And no one even noticed. That's it. And she worked in the executive dining room at Universal as a waitress. And later when she did Bridesmaidsids she drove onto the lot to work and she said tears were streaming down my face she didn't tell me that story awesome yeah no she i'm

i'm really crazy about her and that you did that the guilty by suspicion well you did the grifters but guilty by suspicion i think is an underappreciated movie thank you don't you yeah i mean it's the blacklist and it's heavy man oh my God. I think it's one of the better blacklist movies. Yeah, and I think that story still needs to be told again. I was talking about it the other day because I feel like my kids' generation, they haven't really absorbed what happened. And maybe now, particularly, it's a pressing subject.

So yeah, and I learned so much about that experience working on that film. It was great. And De Niro was in it, so that was amazing. Isn't that the one where he's like, shame on you? Yes. Yeah, it was, yeah. And George Wendt, is that his name? Yes, that's right.

And he buckled. I remember it all because of the emotions of it, to really sort of get a sense of how horrifying that was and how it could happen, you know, was really insidious. And it is true now that the same type of, you know, red baiting tactics are sort of now back. That's right. That's right. And to study that period, you're studying people's ethical dilemmas and how they handled them in a way that when I look at that, I think, oh, yeah, I can't judge anyone. But I can study it and I can see and I can imagine.

Now, what would I have done? And the cost to people, the cost to people and their careers and their work was so massive. careers and their work was so massive and one of the great actors who actually was in the movie and also was blacklisted was a guy named sam wanamaker he ended up going to england and working and he was the one that got the globe theater started so what happened was there was the famous old the globe theater had not been renovated or had not been basically built it had burned down you know centuries yeah so he got it going so now they have this ongoing theater and a company in it but it was really because of sam yeah and his daughter is a great actress named zoe wanamaker and anyway so he was in the movie i got to meet him yeah that was fascinating yeah i just read about like for some reason i looked up joseph

losey who was another one that went to England. Big time. He was a big director, right? Yeah, film director. Did a couple of interesting, really interesting movies. And Kirk Douglas, who just turned 100. That's why it also came to mind recently. My husband was honored with that award. And Kirk Douglas spoke by video congratulating my husband.

But then we were all talking about, yeah, with Spartacus, he was the one that really broke the blacklist. By using the writer. Right. Yeah. But talking about fighting the power, it's interesting because your husband did that, what was the political movie?

Reds? No, no, no. Oh, Bullworth. Bullworth. Yeah. That's like one of the great underappreciated political satires. I agree. The fucking end of that movie. Oh my God.. Bullworth. Yeah. That's like one of the great underappreciated political satires. I agree.

The fucking end of that movie. Oh, my God. It's crazy. I know. We watched it recently. They did a screening in New York downtown, and they wanted him to come and be there for the screening, which he was. And then they had a conversation afterwards. He didn't participate in the conversation.

We just listened to everyone talking about it. It's very controversial. But the ending, wow. I hadn't seen it in a while. And it is, it's a very, it still holds. I think it actually does,

especially right now. Yeah. Like the, it was, it would, I remember cause I'm like, I never thought about the insurance industry. Yeah.

You know, like that was the, like it taught me in a very visceral way, you know, how, you know, private industry holds the reins of politics and lobbies. You know, like it was an educational experience for me because I was not aware of, you know, that, you know, that when it comes right down to it, you might be taken out by the insurance industry. Exactly. Which was what happened.

Right. Yeah. No, it's very powerful. It's about money and politics and basically have that. Once you have a campaign finance system like we have, then we are all corrupted. There is no way to get around it. Right. The government. Except maybe to be a reality television star.

Sure. Then you can get around everything. Yeah. You can just rise right to the top, wedge your way in. Okay. So Kirk Douglas, you work with Mike Douglas, Michael Douglas, and the American president, which I liked that movie. And he's a guy like him too. Yeah. Do you like him? Yeah. Yeah. He's like a good actor. He's a good actor. He's always surprising to me. Super professional. Rob Reiner directed that. I know I listened to Rob's. I know I listened to Rob's show.

You guys were hilarious together. He's just so funny because he doesn't give, like he's so in himself. Yeah, that's right. You know what I mean? He's in himself. Yeah. And he was from the time that we all knew him on All in the Family, right? Right, yeah.

He's that guy. No, when we were shooting, in fact, the thing I remember most about that was the OJ trial was going on at the time we were shooting the film. So Rob had a monitor like in the next room over where when they were setting up and getting ready, he'd go and watch the trial. Oh, really? And then he would update us and also give editorial comment on the day's proceedings. No, he's a great friend. I have enormous admiration and love for him. Love that guy.

Yeah, yeah. He's great. There's something like those people when you're like our age in a way that you feel like you grew up with somehow. That they were there on television. You know, like he's just one of those guys somehow or another you know i know that guy yeah you know him yeah and well in american beauty which is a movie i watch over i've watched over and over again like there's something interesting about you in in the in your career that somehow or another as you got older your courage to become more vulnerable you know became sort of up front

is that possible oh thank you that's a great compliment i i hope so because like i remember in american beauty that they were like you've done something i'd not seen an actress do which was you know take that part and and really you know the depth of it was was so profound and also the the weird angry desperation and vulnerability of of being in that life yeah it's heavy and it's funny at the same right exactly yeah that's good writing yeah it's really good writing so when the writing's that good you just try to play the truth of the moment. And I know that that movie hit some people. And I, in fact, I went, I haven't seen it a long time, but when we were screening it

originally and we would be in audiences, sometimes a certain moment would come up and everyone would be laughing. And then the next screening, no one, everyone would be silent at the same moment so it's one of those movies it teeters on the edge of both all the time and depending on your mood or depending on how close to home it hits exactly like you know i'd imagine if you're dealing with a you know a kind of like entering middle age audience of people who are living a quiet life of, of desperation and, and, uh,

just doing what they think they should do. It's gotta be like, oh, it's a little, a little too close. Yes. Right. Yes,

exactly. And the, and, and the secrets and the pain underneath people's lives is dramatized so beautifully in that. That's the one thing the camera can do that's really powerful is show private moments in our lives

in a way that, you know. Yeah, and the way he shot that, Mendes, like it reminded me of a Mike Nichols movie, of an early Mike Nichols movie. Like he had a sense of framing that was, you know, like carnal knowledge or did he do Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

That there was just something. Yes, he did. I think he is a theatrical director, isn't he? Didn't he come from theater? That was, yeah, he was a boy wonder in the London theater. Right. That makes sense. That was his first movie.

And he hired one of the most senior veteran cinematographers who has now passed away named Conrad Hall to shoot it. So that's also part of Sam Mendes' talent and abilities is that he knows who to bring in. So Connie, who was this wonderful sort of gremlin Buddha, wise, philosophical, sweet, sweet person. I had done another movie with him. So all that feeling and all of that, the feeling in the movie, Connie really had. So there's a lot of times when he's making it very dark in a way,

and then there are other times it's quite bright. So a lot of it is that that and sam was very wise to hire this you know this older vet to work with as a first-time director a lot of first-time directors wouldn't have that courage right to have someone who's so knowledgeable i would think that it'd be like the first thing you would do well no i would think like yeah it's like i think you get a guy that really knows how to do this sometimes you can't get them to if you're a first timer. Sure. But because the script was so good, that helped because everyone read it and was like, wow, this script is very special.

Yeah. So when did you meet Warren Beatty? I met him because he was making a movie called Bugsy. I remember that movie. Yep. And Barry Levinson was directing it. I had met Barry and had like a drink with Barry. And then so then I went to meet Warren.

And how was that? Well, kind of, pretty close, but not exactly. Yeah. But it was, there was definitely a spark. Yeah. I can't get it. I have no sense of what he's like. He's very charming. He's very intelligent.

Yeah. And that's, I remember thinking that he was incredibly intelligent that's very attractive intelligence is very attractive but also a notorious ladies man yeah from way back yeah and you were like fuck it okay well i didn't at the beginning too i was just actually i was really wasn't thinking about it on a personal level. I was thinking more like, you know, would I get the job? Right. And then also just like how that would work professionally. Yeah.

So, yeah, it didn't really, I mean, I had, you know, I knew that about him. And it worked out. You know, 25 years of marriage. Four kids later? In March, 25 years. Really? We've been married. That's wild.

That's crazy. That's good. It's like your parents. Exactly. We're on our way, except not nearly close enough. But you were married before too? Yes. And yeah, so you had one trial?

I did. And he's a wonderful, wonderful human being. So I wasn't in a situation where I was married to him. It wasn't. We didn't break up because he was a bad person. I was a bad person. We just broke up because we broke up. And it was okay.

Yeah. We're still friends. Oh, that's great. And he's got a beautiful family and amazing wife. And you have all these kids. I have so many kids. It's crazy. Did you always want that?

Always. From when I was a little girl like that's weird right but i was little i was probably eight or nine when i decided i wanted to have children i wanted my mom to have more kids because i was the youngest and she's like that's not gonna happen i'm not having any more this This is it. So there was something about that connection. I remember playing with the little kids next door. There was a toddler who lived next door. I remember wanting to go and hang out with this kid and play with him.

So, yeah, I always wanted to have a big family. Yeah. And has that been – because I can't – like we started at the beginning about talking about the mother you played in this movie and mothers and other movies, but like, are you, because like there, you know, it's people know that you have a trans kid and I have to assume like, cause I don't even know how to talk about it. That, that, that is a very contemporary and very challenging thing to move through. Absolutely. And incredibly enlightening.

We all learned a huge amount. And it's actually much more kind of in the public discourse now than when my kid first came out. So, no, it's been, you know, all of parenting is like this. It's just one door after another opens into experiences you never imagined, things that you learn about. I mean, I'm just, in fact, at this point, there's no more us teaching them anything. It's all about them teaching us everything. And it's beautiful.

It's a beautiful part of being a parent and how old's the youngest the youngest is 16 so there's 16 yeah 19 almost 20 22 24 almost 25 and when you know i just it's interesting to have because like in the new movie you have uh this character this mother who who is also learning as she goes along right and i i just have to because like you know i and you're fortunate that you didn't grow up with any sort of repression or or any sort of you know having to fight for who you are but i i mean what what experiences do you have like you know to be the parent to someone taking those kind of chances and to be who they are? I mean, have you had to defend him? You know, I...

His name's Steven? Yeah. And privacy has always been a kind of sane-making way of proceeding in life for me, even from before I knew my husband. I mean, kind of when I first started, I remember when I first did a film and they first said to me, do you want to be on the Johnny Carson show? Which I was like, oh, my God, how can I do that? Right. You know, I don't know how to do that. I'm nervous. That makes me scared, which I then like, oh, my God, how can I do that? You know, I don't know how to do that. I'm nervous.

That makes me scared, which I then avoided doing. But so putting yourself out there publicly has always, I've always been a bit leery about it, which I think in a certain way is a good thing. Sure. So I think especially now when we are so, there's so much. Can't avoid it. I mean, I, yeah.

So I think guarding privacy has been a big part of being able to just sort of stay sane and show business. Have a life. So I do that for my children. And I feel like now that my kids, especially now that they're young adults, they have a right to do or say about themselves what they want. And I respect that. Sure. I also have enormous respect for them and how they handle themselves. So I just sort of defer to them in terms of how they want to present themselves or if they want to at all.

Right. Yeah. Well, that's, like you said, it's harder to do. Exactly. And, you know, it's one of the good things about being older right now because I feel like I'm able to do that. I don't have any pressure on social media. I don't do that stuff. Sure.

But I know for younger people, younger actors and actresses, there's such a pressure to be on social media. Post pictures of yourself. Post on Twitter. Post on whatever. Post on everything. Keeping people update. I'm sure you're doing it. It's exhausting and I want out.

I know. I know other people that say the same thing. Grown people. Wait, didn't you stop your Twitter account? I did on my phone. Okay. I took it off my phone. Okay.

I heard your podcast. So I can be in the life. I heard you say that on the air. Okay. So I know you did that. But I'm still on it on my, I can put it on my computer. No, I can do it on my computer. Oh, I see.

So like, I'll take time. I'll my, I can put it on my computer. No, I can do it on my computer. Oh, I see. So like I'll take time. I'll say, I have to sit down. So like what, what I've gotten rid of is the constant checking. I see. Yes. Like when it's on your phone, it's like you're, you're talking like, and then you find yourself just doing that. Oh yeah.

Scrolling through shit. Oh yeah. So I don't do that anymore. I'll try to, you know, limit the time because I'll flurry, you know, I'll start doing it. You know, I don't even know what for. I think that the kids now, the younger generation who's growing up right now, they're going to be the ones that really teach us about how not to and when it's important to be on and when it's not, how to be judicious about using it and how it can make you crazy and

how it can make you. Well, yeah, if you didn't grow up with it, like, you know, I have problems with boundaries. So the emotional kind of engagement and the sort of adulation and hate and the wanting the response and all that stuff, you know, when you just sort of lock in with your whole being into that thing, it's exhausting. I think it causes mental problems. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it's hard enough. I'm not even on that stuff and i have that those issues with being in the public eye so you know i can only imagine it would just get fed and you know you just it's sort of the lowest part of yourself you know oh yeah yeah that's that's exactly what it is it's the lowest part of everybody's self exactly you know occasionally there's good things that happen out there but for the most part you know given what's happening

culturally we're seeing that it's like it man, it's not a great thing, really. Yeah, exactly. So I think the other stuff that I'm impressed with, and it's like I notice, and obviously I'm not the only one to say this, but it's hard for women in show business to find their way and keep working as an actress i mean like and you have somehow you know managed to to find work in in projects that explore the depth of who you are now and continue to take risks in that zone. But it's not easy, right? Yeah, I think being able to stop is a great gift.

So I've been able to stop because I've been able to afford to stop whenever I kind of wanted to take a break. And that was also great about having kids, is getting away from it, going back, getting away, going back. Also, I haven't gone back to New York and done plays, but I've done plays in LA. And that has also been very empowering and freeing that I don't feel that I've, you know. Yeah.

So and when I've wanted to do stuff, stuff's been around. So that's lucky. That's just lucky. And there have been projects that I've done that maybe a lot of people haven't seen or haven't, you know. Well, that happens a lot now. You know, like they could be great. And they're great. And the process, I mean, as you know now because you've been doing it, the process of making something is your process.

Yeah. And that's your joy or your experience, whatever you want to call it. You can make that what you want it to be. I mean, in my case, I'm not the director, so I can't control what happens or producing or any of that. Or the producer, the distributor. But the part of it that's mine, I can really relish. But you want to see it.

I do see it. And the end result of things is very important as well. However, the process of doing it, that's the only part that you get to kind of have as your own. Yes. Yeah. And that I love. Right.

And so I've been able to do a number of things over the years and, you know, kind of juggle it with my family and being at home and all that stuff. Like when I was looking around, I saw there was a movie I didn't see or know about that you did, that you did Robin Williams' last movie. Oh, yeah. The Face of Love. Yeah, I didn't see that. Yeah, it's really good. It's with Ed Harris, if I may modestly say. It's really good.

And Ed Harris, oh, my God. I completely, I will admit it, got a huge crush on him. But I know his wife, so it's okay. And my husband knew. Ed is a genius. God, I loved working. We got on very well. We're playing

this like you know romantic couple and i remember we're shooting we were in culver city and we had to do a scene where we're making out in a car yeah and we had to shoot all night and it was we only were doing you know how this happens we're doing that scene just as the sun's coming up so people are starting to get up go to work walk on the street and ed and i are in this car making out i mean how it didn't actually we didn't have enough time to shoot for hours the sun was coming up it's supposed to be night all right anyway but uh so he was um really inspiring to me i learned a lot just watching him and i'm very proud of the movie he's a great actor yeah yeah he is a great actor i proud of the movie. He's a great actor, yeah. Yeah, he is a great actor. I got to watch the movie. And what did Robin do?

He was like the comedic friend. Robin was my neighbor. I mean, what? Oh, my God. He was so great. I knew him, but I didn't know him well. But I've been around him over the years. Yeah.

I've been witness to famous moments that Robin. One of my favorites was at the Golden Globes one year Christine Lottie won and she was in the ladies room so they announced her name they said and for Best Actress Chris Lottie she's not there she's in the ladies room so they're running to get her in the ladies room Robin who's just in the audience jumps up on the stage he starts improvising she in with great grace comes on the stage she's got a towel she's wiping her hands he takes the towel goes and sits down yeah i mean what a moment and he was so lovely on that movie and so lovely to me and to the crew he he is one of those guys as you know not all comedians are like this and that's fine he was just one of those guys as you know not all comedians are like this and that's fine he was just one of

those guys he did make everybody laugh so in between and i have a in fact one of my favorite pictures is him standing and with all the camera crew around him they're all doubled over in laughter and he's just like doing you know doing his thing what a man and i met his wife susan at that time and and i had known his family too. I'd known him years ago as well, his other family. He was a sweet guy. It's so funny when you hear about

these Golden Globes stories. There was like, it used to be a real, I remember Jack Nicholson talking about it somewhere just about how back in the day they would go in the 70s and everybody was just

fucked up and it was just people are pretty fucked up now oh yeah oh yeah and he said like glenn ford would be up there hosting and what who was his wife lana turner one of them what i can't remember that she would be shit-faced like it was just like this that arc which your husband kind of was part of of old ho old Hollywood and new Hollywood, the changing of the guard in that like weird, crazy time of the seventies. Like it must've been just crazy. Yeah. And that was, I think at a time too, a lot of people didn't go because it wasn't considered

like classy enough. It was just a fun, weird thing. It was a thing. Or you heard about it. You won the Golden Globe, but you weren't there. Right now it's a big deal, right? Yeah. Like Oh, you won the Golden Globe, but you weren't there. Right. Now it's a big deal, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Like I talked to, there's so few people I've talked to. Like oddly, Ed Begley was the one dude that kind of walked me through the 70s. Yeah, because he was here. He knew everybody. Yeah. Yeah. He's the best. Yeah.

And it's just like he, like talking to him about that time, because he wasn't really known. Yeah. But you know, his dad was in the business. Oh, yeah. And he was a party guy. Oh, and his dad was in the business oh yeah a party guy and his life story is amazing crazy yeah yeah he was great yeah do you do you ever hang out with those guys yeah yeah he's a dear friend of mine yeah i adore him and his wife and his i know his

kids yeah i see his daughter at tree people park where she works oh she's sweet she's awesome yeah but like nicholson, do you guys hang out with Nicholson? Yeah. How's he doing? He's good. Oh, good. He's good.

He's an amazing guy. Still going to those Laker games, you know? Oh, good, good, good. Yeah. Well, that must be a thrill to have that part of your life to be kind of dug into Hollywood. Yeah, and he and Warren are such good friends.

They've been friends for so many years and are mutually supportive and kind of share an experience even though warren you know they they met and they knew each other yeah i think warren kind of said hey we should be friends you know and like ah they became friends so yeah how's his new movie my husband yes beautiful it's out right it's out it's called rules don't apply and I am very biased. And I love the movie. And I think it's very beautiful and very funny.

And he is amazing in it. Long time in the making, right? Yeah. If you consider, like, I think he made his first deal to maybe do a Howard Hughes movie. I think it was in the 70s. Oh, my God. So he'd been thinking about it a long time. Thinking about the character.

Thinking about the man. Yeah. And always thought that there might be a story to thinking about the character, thinking about the man. Yeah. And always thought that there might be a story to put around him that would be a good thing. Yeah. Oh, I got to go see it. Mm-hmm. It's good. And now, oh, one other thing.

Your sister-in-law, Shirley MacLaine. Oh, yeah. Right? Right. Is that exciting? I'm just going to be a fan guy. Yeah, no. She is the ultimate anti-mame for my children.

No, we love her. She's an incredible woman. I also admire her as an actress. Have you worked with her as an actress? I have not. But I would love to. We would get on great. Yeah.

We would get on great. And she's one of the greats, let's face it. And she is one of the great characters that's on the planet at this time. She will also return to the planet in other lifetimes. Forever. Forever. As long as there's people, she'll be in one of them. Love her dearly. She's fun? Oh, completely. Yeah. And she's got that same intelligence that Warren has. They're both so smart and so engaged. Love conversation. Love politics.

Love to talk. Love to ask questions. You know, she's a very alive intelligence. So this whole, like, you've been nominated many times. And I think you should win. Oh really? Yeah. Okay.

Get on the phone. No, that would be wrong. I can't imagine. I can't, like when I watch the, if I, when, if, and when I watch the Oscars, just that, that horrible feeling of like waiting to hear, I can't imagine that. Yeah. It's a, it's a funny feeling. And then you gotta be happy for them. Like, yeah, that's what, you that. Yeah. It's a funny feeling. And then you got to be happy.

Yeah. For them. Like, yeah. That's what, you know, it's always what I'm watching. It's like that moment. We all do. Yeah. That moment.

Because that's the human experience that's the most interesting. But I've never seen anyone go like, oh, fuck. Actually, I think there was an actor many years ago who did like stand up and throw his hat on the ground and say shit when he lost um uh so yeah you see little glimmers of that i remember the first time i was nominated i was nominated in the supporting actress category with a bunch of amazing women and for which movie uh the grifters oh yeah yeah and the other actresses and we all got together before the show was on the air. Because in those days, actually, they didn't turn the cameras on. So everyone's talking and chatting. Right.

So we all get together in a little group. And we're like, okay, whoever wins next week takes all of us out to dinner and they pay. Yeah. So Whoopi Goldberg won. Yeah. The next, just like a day or two later, I got a big bouquet of flowers with a card it said meet at the such and such a restaurant at such and such a time yeah we show up we're all one of us couldn't be there but we were all there together whoopi brings out gardenias for each of us on a

tray and chocolate oscars i'm not kidding and we all had dinner and it was the most who else was there beautiful uh lorraine brocco diane ladd mary mcdonald oh mary mcdonald me whoopie um lorraine couldn't come to the couldn't come to the dinner but mary was there diane ladd was there me and whoopie it was amazing that's sweet it was it was me and Whoopi. It was amazing. That's sweet. It was. It was like one of those moments of, wow. Well, that's so nice because that was like, again, it relates to the kind of never-ending appetite of the media that, you know, everything that happens before and everything, like everybody just, you had a privacy moment. You had a private moment. We had a private moment.

Just you and the other actresses. Exactly. It was so meaningful. My parents were with me at the awards show. And I remember it never occurred to me. I didn't even think about it until the very last minute. Oh, they could actually call my name. Yeah.

But then they didn't. And it was really quick. It was like, no, they didn't. And also, that's like one of the first awards of the night. So then it was over really quickly. And I was like, okay, well, who cares? I'm still here. It's fun.

What the hell? And it must be exciting to go. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen Nichols in there in the last couple of years. It makes me sad. Yeah. I mean, I think most people only go if they're nominated.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because he used to just sit right up front, you know, with his glasses on. Sure. I don't know. Maybe it's, I guess, you know, time goes on, you know like where's jack i don't know maybe it's i guess you know time goes on you know you know what are you gonna do at a certain point you're like i'm just gonna sit that one out yeah yeah but it's a fun night huh yeah it is it's um i mean now it's kind

of overwhelming to tell you the truth the amount of attention there is the amount of media the amount of cameras around the amount of you around, the amount of, you know, there's sort of never a moment where you kind of have a little breather. It's weird that, like, there was a time, like, a decade ago where there weren't screeners. Yeah.

Do you know, like, you had to go see the movie? Like, I just, it's, I don't know. There's no space. I mean, like what you're talking about with privacy, like to find your space is a real challenge. To find a moment where you can just take a breath so i guess you learn to do it on camera because you're on camera the entire time so yeah you learn how to kind of just take those deep breaths um while you're sitting there it was great talking to you thank you i hope you had a nice time i had a a great time. Okay. And best of luck with

If It Matters, with the awards. Thank you. But I know you're doesn't matter, right? Well, it's nice to be involved. Let me put it that way. It's nice to be asked. You do great work. Thank you.

Charming. Very exciting to sit across from her. And I hope you enjoyed that. You can go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. The Carnegie posters will sell out.

They're a single run item. They're art prints. I'll sign them for you. You can get them. There's a bunch of other posters there too and t-shirts and things. And I want you to... What day is it? 19th? I'll talk to you. I'll talk to you guys. I'll talk to all of you

before the holidays. Got Derek Trucks on Thursday. That was great. Much more than I could even hope for, talking to him. And what else? I know you want me to play guitar, don't you? You do, right? You do.

This is a Telecaster, semi-hollow. I guess that'd be a Telecaster Deluxe, but not with the humbuckers. Going straight into an overdriven fender champ pretty dirty pretty dirty Boomer lives! Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city,

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