WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 774 - ​Martha Plimpton / Laurie Kilmartin

Episode Date: January 5, 2017

Martha Plimpton says she learned how to act on the job. She talks with Marc about her childhood roles in movies like The Goonies, how those paved the way for her work on Broadway, and what she does to overcome crippling stage fright. Plus, Marc's friend Laurie Kilmartin stops by to talk about how she was able to take overwhelming grief and turn it into a new comedy special. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley construction. Punch your ticket to kids night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 PM in rock city at Toronto rock.com. Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadoodles yeah threw a new one in there what's happening i'm mark maron this is

my podcast wtf welcome to it martha plimpton is on the show. And also I did a short interview with my friend Lori Kilmartin, whose new special, 45 Jokes About My Dead Dad, is on CISO.com. Lori and I go way back to the Bay Area. She's a writer at Conan O'Brien, always one of my favorite comics. And I like her company. And she's solid. She did a wtf a while back it's good stuff oh you know what i wanted to say as some of you know the bruce springsteen episode picked up a lot of traction uh we obviously did uh we did some uh we did some some lifting for the cable news world.

And he gets out there in this way, this clickbaity sort of way, where I don't know if people really engaged. I know most of you did. Most of the Bruce fans did. And certainly people who listen to this show did but but what uh quick bait diminishes and what you know pulling a couple of quotes that uh bruce made about trump out of that interview is it sort of diminishes the the scope and breadth of the interview that was a very unique and uh compelling and deep conversation with a great artist that just gets caught up in this whirlwind of cable news bullshit. And, you know, it's sort of like,

I know a lot of people enjoy it, a lot of people listen to it, but it sort of, it bums me out because I hope that people go listen to it and I hope they just don't respond to, you know,

like, clickbait garbage or this segment. They go listen to the whole thing. It was a sweet hour with Bruce springsteen it's like a very memorable thing for me to go out to jersey and talk to him so i hope you enjoyed it all right i just picked up a a copy of the wild the innocent and the east street shuffles that

was called i didn't have that one i listened to that the other day and it's great it's great going back into the old bruce catalog It's great. Listen, the garbage people are coming. And by that, I don't mean there's some sort of weird army of pirates and evildoers on the horizon. Literally the garbage trucks are out there. Thank God. You never know what the holiday thing, when are they going to come the day after? Are they going to come? day after they're going to come when are they coming i went to the doctor maybe that's what i should do that's what i should do right now is tell all you guys who are like 50 or in your 50s who are avoiding the doctor because you have a fear of fingers uh go go get your yearly checkup don't die something stupid don't of something preventable.

I panic and I go and I'm going to go get another test. But everything tests out fine and I'm okay. Thank you for asking. But go, will you? Go get the checkup if you can. I guess that's as good a way as any to evolve into this conversation that I had with my friend laurie kilmartin whose special is uh it's sort of a a bit documentary a bit comedy special but all revolves around her father's death from uh from lung cancer and i have not had to deal with that yet and i imagine it's coming if i don't go first

and i thought it was a very interesting way it was a very honest way in a very bold way for a comedian to deal with uh with the death of a parent a couple years ago uh when she was almost you know obsessively tweeting about her father's hospice care and dealing with her father's illness as a way to cope for herself. But I believe it helped other people. I believed it certainly helped her. It might have helped her old man. But the special is sort of talking a bit about that and then moving into the actual performance of these jokes that revolve around this very real theme that a lot of us seem to avoid.

And so I was excited that I thought to give her a call and have this chat with her. So this is me and Lori Kilmart. Amoeba balls and mozzarella balls? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry

O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. And then like two thirds would be the stand up. Yeah. Stand up. Yeah. And I watched it. You did. I did. I watched it. I know you told me like I didn't have to watch it, but why would I do that to you? Well, because you're a comic. I would never want or demand or expect a comic to watch a comedy special. I know, but I know you. I like you.

Yeah. It's not like you're some person that just shot me an email like, hey, just watch my special. I know. But still, you know. And also it's it's very compelling uh the angle yeah it's a little different yeah it's it's called 45 jokes 45 jokes about my dead dad about your dead dad yeah 45 jokes about my dead dad i didn't know what that

was going to be but it's really that yeah kind of yeah yeah i i would do my dad died a couple years ago in fact when i did my my long form wtf you yeah the day it dropped is the day he went into hospice really so all that was going on yeah that was right yeah see not only did i not pick that up when you were here but i missed the entire twitter event of his passing and i follow you That's how self-involved I am. I guess I must have registered at some point. I go, I hope Lori's okay. But I didn't see the phenomenon happen. I was like, I should be retweeting my WTF more,

but I'm really busy helping my dad die. That was it? Probably, yeah. Sorry, I didn't promote it as much as I should have. Oh, no, it was fine. You had bigger things. Apparently, you didn't promote it as much as I should have. Oh, no, it was fine. You had bigger things. Apparently, you were writing a show. Yeah.

I was doing some creative work. But the weird thing was is that I didn't realize that the inception of it was because you were, it almost seems compulsively tweeting about the process of your father's dying. Right, right, right. And there were some things you said in the doc that I thought were in the special that I thought were really interesting just in terms of comedy that when you started to go through it and then I started to realize how frequent it was and that you were almost obsessively into it

to insulate yourself from falling into a complete darkness, that it was serving you, and that there were some moral and ethical questions you had to ask yourself either during it or at least in retrospect. But it really seemed that at the time, and people began to follow you because you were tweeting, doing these jokes about him dying of cancer, that at the time you didn't seem to have a choice. No. And I was trapped in a house, in my house, my parents' house, with my sister, my mom,

and my dad. It was just us. And he had a few visitors and stuff, but that's just enough to make you crazy, even if everyone's healthy. Right. But when someone's dying, then you just, you're about to go off the deep end. Right. And he had had lung cancer.

Yes. And you knew that. So this was the the arc of it right by the time he he got to hospice care at his house it you knew you would you had moved through this process yeah but you still don't think your dad's you still think you're getting your dad's going to be that one guy that went into hospice and then beat it and then lived to be 100 right now you still cannot fathom that sure dad's going to be that one guy that went into hospice and then beat it and then lived to be 100. Right. You still cannot fathom that that person's going to be gone. And this is the first person that you've lost. You know, luckily, first big loss is pretty late in life.

And how old is he? He was 83. That's like, you know, that's old. That's a good life. Good run. Yes, you can't complain. You can't. So you thought that you knew he had cancer.

I imagine you weren't. You were up there infrequently. Yeah. During it. Yeah. Checking in. Frequently, at least. Probably like every other weekend, I'd fly up.

And then, yeah. And then on the phone constantly. Right. Recording all of our phone calls. Yeah. You were recording the phone calls? Yes. From the beginning?

As soon as he got sick, I started recording everything. Why? I just, well, first of all, sometimes he would start talking about his life and his past and I wanted that. Oh. And I don't know. I just thought I would want to hear it one day. Right.

Interesting. So like you were like, because when you're engaged in it, you don't always hear it. Oh, yeah. And you can't necessarily remember everything. Right. And there does come a time where I think you don't really know your parents. No. Until this happens or until they get too old to realize that they're telling you shit they're not supposed to.

Yeah. And you also don't know, like you can prepare, like my mom is still alive and i should be preparing myself and i should be ready for her to go but i know i'm still as annoyed with her as i always am even though i know she's 79 and it's a it's a rough 79 and i still can't do even though i know the steps i should be you know getting all this information on just hugging her and holding her and stuff i still can't but you know stop myself from snapping when she invades any sort of or crosses an emotional boundary or something. Well, you know, it is their fault.

It really is. I tell her that every day. Good. Well, that's kind of like I love you in our family. Definitely. Well, it seems like there was an understanding of the tone throughout the family. Yeah. well it seems like there was an understanding of the tone throughout the family yeah but but you said something in the doc part where you said that that the jokes i don't know if you knew it in in

the time you were tweeting it because you did like it became sort of a phenomenon you tweeting about yeah your father's um illness and i and i think it became a phenomenon because you know everybody deals with that to some degree unless people die suddenly. Everyone's going to deal with it. Yeah. And like Conan said in the documentary part of it, that death and dying is something we've moved out of the house. That people, the fragility that happens to people, we don't really connect with it anymore. Yeah.

And he brought up that amazing point that it used to be people, you know, when I was a little kid, you'd go to someone's house and there was a hospital bed in the fucking living room. Right?

Yes. Because, you know, someone's grandparent was dying. Yeah. Somebody, every family had a dying member. Right. Yeah.

Like in that room. Yes. And it just, it's not part of our culture anymore. And I don't think, I don't think that people detach from the feelings that are connected with that, but they actually detach from the event of it. So it seems that a lot of people are like, I went through this or this is amazing because we're all going to have to deal with this.

And then the support came, right? Yeah, yeah. But the thing you said was you were controlling. It was a means of control. Right. It was like you're having something thrown at you really hard and fast. And all right, this is how I catch it. And I'm going to push that ball away.

All right, give me the next one. You're just constantly maybe it's like having a tennis ball machine just coming at you. And you're just batting them away as quickly as possible. And that's what we do anyways. Probably before we were comics, as funny people or as people that have whatever it is the sickness yeah that enables them to do comedy that's how we managed emotions or deflected emotions or dealt with anger or dealt with sadness yeah was to you know get a laugh or at least frame it somehow that you know we could be comforted yeah and and it's it's also more fun to do if the dating

situation goes awry you All right. Can you crack your knuckles? Let me have at it. Five new minutes. You had a couple of those. Yeah. When it's something that isn't as fun to go through, it's interesting to at least tackle it the same way as you tackle all the other crap that happens in your life. And when you were in it and when you were dealing with it, when he did come to the house for those nine or 10 days, because I can't imagine it. And I think about my own death more than anything else. Yeah.

I'm very selfish that way. I know my parents are much older and they're theoretically going to get it first, but I'm still a little preoccupied with my own health and concerns. It's natural. I guess. But I mean, was there any, as hard as it was, did it become something that you could understand just as existentially as a person? Like that, did it become easier as he was really dying there in the house?

you know, as he was really dying there in the house. Yeah, because I could talk to somebody about it that wasn't my sister or my mom, who was also, we were all just freaked out. So it was a way to call a friend. Right. And now I didn't. Yes. I'm a comic.

Right. And I don't have friends. No. I just have other comics I know, you know? Here's how we go out with our friends. Oh, fuck. I know. It's a party. I don our friends. Oh, fuck. I know. It's a party.

I don't know. If you're her real friend, you won't contact me. They want to have dinner. I don't know what that means. I know. What do you talk about? It's so fucking sad. It is sad.

Are we just going to sit there? I don't know. I don't know the guy she's with. I know. The couple thing. Anyway. Yeah. But outside of all this support you're getting from you know strangers yeah which must have been comforting like very comforting and people were coming by and stuff yeah my dad my dad had a few friends he had like dog park friends so they came by and some family members

came by and he was conscious the whole time for the most part until the last day he was yeah yeah so he a little high very high yeah yeah he was like a war vet a korean war vet and never complained and we were supposed to give him morphine he wanted he held out until his pain was at a 10 and then then he started taking morphine all the time so quite high at the end wow yeah you talk about the morphine in the bits. Yeah. And then, but you know, the interesting thing about the special is that, you know, you, you were, I guess you learned from doing the jokes,

you know, outside of the Twitter stuff that there had to be some balance to where you didn't seem insensitive. Like, like you had to address the fact that you were grieving and that this wasn't just these weird callous jokes. Yeah, it's weird. I mean, sometimes I get angry when the audience doesn't go immediately down a callous path. What's wrong with you people?

Do you have normal feelings? You want me to know I love my parents first before I tell you I want them to die? Yeah. What's wrong with you guys? They don't assume that. Yeah. You do have to hold their hand a little bit. Well, there was some footage in there from when you were running the jokes.

Yeah. And that moment. So awkward. I mean, well, yeah, because, well, what is it exactly? Explain it. This happened twice. And one time I had it on video where I was in the middle of like a regular nightclub set, a regular comedy club. And I and I have this little chunk on my dad I'm working on. He's already dead.

And it's about him, whatever. And it's hard to go into. There's no regular material that sets you up for it. Right. Well, you know, the kid I talk about that. Yeah. Dating. Right. Right. My dad's dead yeah it's saturday night what yeah we're here for dick jokes lady what are you doing right and plus he was newly dead so i wasn't good at talking about it you know that's the interesting thing about us since we don't have the friends is that you're gonna process this shit in front of a room full of strangers without having a handle on it right Right, right. So just even practicing saying my dad died, like I guess I'm okay at saying it now because it's been two and a half years.

But two months after I was like, it was hard to get out. You were in it still. So I think if you're not completely comfortable with the topic, the audience picks up on it. So I do think it's partially my fault for talking about that stuff um in front of you know where i had where the other material been just very polished and then also not only is it new material but it's a really tough topic for me to you know be casual about

and and honestly i mean theoretically if you know anything about death is true that you know you hadn't really processed the feelings correct yeah right and this was like whether you want to admit it or not this was how you were processed yes yeah so you dragged people through paying customers some of them paid a lot of them had groupons and free tickets well fuck them paid yeah but no i i know that experience only from talking about you know not anything as bad but when I was going through that divorce yeah where I was just that was where I was doing it and people were horrified I have no no handle on the emotions the anger and the pain well yeah if you you know you give them you know 15 solid minutes and then you you take five for yourself and then you give

them the rest of the time. It should. I think it's a good. It's still a good deal. Of course. But like, you know, and also with you is that, you know, you write jokes. Yeah. Like, you know, you sit, you know, you have that control. Like with me, I'm just like, just spewing.

You're just spurting. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, maybe we'll land somewhere. So going into it, you like well this this is this is structurally sound it's a joke right yeah yeah it's not i'm not gonna cry at the end of this that's not part of the plan so what did happen though what were those two incidences i i saw it was hard to hear what she said but she she she said my mom just went into hospice and i don't

think this is funny. And so I just sort of talked to her a little bit. And then I ended up buying her a beer and climbing off stage and giving her a hug. And that turned out to be enough. Of course. This is Arizona. If you give someone a hug and buy them a beer, you're in good shape. But ultimately, it's somebody who's not at the stage you're at who's dealing with it and i don't think they were being critical of you they there was just no way for

them to see it as funny emotional reaction right it was worse when i was in seattle i did a guest set like a 10-minute guest set on a saturday show yeah you know somebody else's show i was just up there trying to work this stuff out and uh so it's a great crowd and i'm i was like i'm doing this material no matter what yeah right no i gotta work on it i gotta work on it and it's kind of working and then you know there was one show i ended up dropping it but it was like some kind of cremation joke and it went nowhere and then some that silence gave somebody the space to go, this is awful or whatever. And say, my dad died. And her dad had just died, like probably the same time my dad died.

And then she just stomped out of the room in very high heels. It was at the Underground. Oh, yeah. Oh, in that place. The new one with the floor? Yeah, the clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp out. And it's a Saturday. You know, every comedic instinct, it's a great Saturday crowd.

Like, you know, let me just mop this up with five killer minutes. Did you do it? No, I just kept going. It hurt. It hurt my body to keep bombing. And it was so uncomfortable. And then she was clomping up the stairs. Like, it took her a minute to clomp

out of the room yeah and the audio they could hear and her son came up afterwards and apologized and and said you know we had i made up with him i guess but she was gone well i mean theoretically you know that's you know the appropriate thing to do would have been to clomp without talking you know like you know take your shoes off and then walk out silently right well that's what we want you know it's it's sort of like you know instead of ruining the show just leave yeah and come back when the other guy's on yes yeah i mean that's etiquette but but it is emotional shit yeah so and you just you just did it you just kept pounding away yeah it's did it help um it must have helped it always helps you always get information from the audience on whether a joke works or not.

And why it doesn't work, you know, that's also like that. I think that chunk that I was working on that she walked out on, I just dropped because it wasn't strong enough. Couldn't get it? Yeah. So, I mean, it helped me. Yeah. Right. It helped you process your feelings?

Yes. Well, help me realize this path I'm trying with these jokes isn't going to work. So let me just pull up and work on the other stuff that is working, you know? Well, it's interesting because, like, you know, watching the set and watching the stuff with your sister and Conan's there. And I'm always happy to see Kindler and Patton, who is post his horrible tragedy. Yes. And who else popped up? Your family. Yeah. And my friend Cheryl. Yeah. And who else popped up? Your family?

Yeah. Your sister? And my friend Cheryl. Yeah. Your friend Cheryl. Is that, you know, once you're on stage, you know,

you can tell that, you know, you set it up like this is exactly what it is. Yeah. And you're okay with it. Like you've processed your grief at that point.

Yes. For the most part. For the most part. It's seven months after. Yeah. That's still... It's still fresh. And I look at it now and I think, but I think, oh, that joke I tell better now or

I could tell better. Sure, of course. Right, right, right. But you go out of your way to, like, I think the jokes about you crying are really important. Yeah. You know, or else, like, you'd be like, you know this she is sociopathic and she's not she's we're just watching her avoid uh processing this stuff yeah yeah yeah well it's uh it's definitely a sort of groundbreaking special and it's funny and it was moving and uh wait now where

did you where can is it out thank you it is out it's on cso oh yeah you're you're one of the crew that's doing the specials on cso crew oh yeah'm part of the CISO crew. Oh, yeah. Stan Hope, Jenna Friedman, Garofalo. A lot of good comics. Yeah. And if I, yeah, it's CISO.com. Okay. And it's called 45 Jokes About My Dead Dad.

Correct. Well, thanks for talking about it. Thanks for having me, Mark. Appreciate it. Okay. That was, i love her and you can as she said you can get that special 49 jokes about my dead dad at uh see so now what we got martha plimpton coming up martha plimpton who i did not know i'd never met but i was excited to meet her um martha plimpton is on the the new abc comedy the real o'neill's uh which airs tuesday nights at 9 30 8 30 central but she's also been around a long time like my girlfriend sarah kane uh when i told her who she was and then i pointed out who she was a lot of times times Sarah doesn't necessarily remember the name.

But if I guide her to an image or maybe hit a trigger with a title like Goonies, the whole world opens up to her. She loves Martha Plimpton. Martha Plimpton was her ideal female archetype when she was younger, when you watched Goonies. And now Martha Plimpton is a seasoned actress. And I have to say quite a New York character. It's always nice to talk to somebody who is on this knees. Oh, it's not happening. It's such a tease, man.

Just give me the sneeze. Give me the fucking payoff. Damn it. Not happening. So I'm always excited to talk to real New Yorkers. And Martha is definitely a real New Yorker. And we get into it. So this is me and Martha Plimpton.

Annette Bening was in here. You're kidding. Yeah, she came over. It's always odd to me, you know, people just drive up. You're getting all the big shots and then today me. You're a big shot. Not really. Oh, but you're yourself.

Yeah. People know who you're yourself. Yeah. People know who you are. It's so weird because I had this weird memory of you. And I don't even know if it's real anymore. Okay. Or what was going on in your life or what. But I was a doorman at the comedy store. Oh, yeah. I was a doorman and I was like, you know, all jacked up on blow in Hollywood and like watching.

And it was with that guy, Josh Miller, right? Oh, yeah. I remember him. He walked around with a cane. Yeah, yeah. He's a character. Yeah. And it was with Donovan.

And Pauly Shore was there. Pauly Shore and Donovan's kid. Yes, yes. Donovan's, Ione. Yeah, is that his name? Yeah. Her name. Her name.

Ione Sky was Donovan's kid. But then he had a son too. Right. Right. Named Donovan's Ione. Yeah. Is that his name? Yeah. Her name. Ione Sky was Donovan's kid. But then he had a son too. Right. Named Donovan. Right. Right. I knew. I don't remember Ione being there.

That's Donovan's kid too? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. I see her around. Yeah. Yeah. She's a mom now.

People just, they become moms. I know. It's crazy. Yeah. Men and women, they marry. I know. Or not. Or they don't. Or they just become moms. Or they just become's crazy. Men and women, they marry. I know. Or not, or they jump. Or they just become

moms. Or they just become moms or dads. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess there's a lot of ways to do it. Yeah, sure. But I just, you know, I don't know. I've been married twice and it's, you know, no kids. Didn't work out. Yeah, well. It's alright. That's alright. How about you? Never married. Anything? No kids. Nothing.

Nothing. Free. Free and easy. That's what kids. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Free. Free and easy. That's what you call that. Freedom. Free and easy. Freedom just to be alone with your thoughts. Yeah, that's right.

Well, I got a fella. Yeah. Which is good, but also he lives over on the other side of the world. Like literally? Yeah, he lives in London. Oh, I thought you were going to say Santa Monica. Yeah. London. I have no sense of that city, but it always amazes me there, and it's like, I thought you were going to say Santa Monica. Yeah.

London. I have no sense of that city, but it always amazed me there. And it's like, there's a lot of history here. Yeah. In the States. Yeah, it's an old one. Yeah, it only goes back a couple hundred years. Like the oldest thing, you're like, oh my God, this house is a historical monument. That's right.

So, all right, let's go through the whole thing. Okay. Do you want to? Yeah, let's go. When you grew up in New York, do you still live's go through the whole thing. Okay. Do you want to? Yeah, let's go. When you were, you grew up in New York. Do you still live there? I still live there. And you drove that car out here?

No, no, no. I shipped it out. Oh, what does that mean? Someone else drove it? Yeah, I put it on a truck. Oh, you didn't want to do the glorious drive across the street? I've done that. I've done that 13 times.

I've done it enough. I'm exhausted. But you usually live in the city. I do. Yeah. Brooklyn. Now Brooklyn. I grew up in Manhattan. I'm exhausted. But you usually live in the city. I do. Brooklyn. Now Brooklyn. I grew up in Manhattan.

You did? Yeah. With actor parents? Well, my mom was an actress until I was like eight. Yeah. Oh, so then she got out of the game? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smartly?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But your dad's a carotid. She couldn't hack it. Nah. Yeah, couldn't take it. Well, I mean, it's a tough game. Well, then I started acting. Yeah.

And you really can't have just a mom and a daughter both acting. But your dad wasn't there? Nobody's going to make a living. It was just the two of you? No, dad was out here. Oh, he was? So that was already done. Yeah, that was done before I even came out.

Really? Oh, yeah. Do you have a relationship with that guy? Oh, yeah. Oh, you guys are all right? Oh, yeah, we're all right. And that's the Carradine family. That's right, correct.

And I have a half-brother and sister that my dad had. Yeah. And you're friends with them? And. That's right. Correct. And I have a half brother and sister that my dad went and had. Yeah. And you're friends with them? And they're out here very much so. Love them. Love them dearly. Well, that's nice. Yeah, it's great.

Was that always easy or did it like- No, it was definitely not always easy. Horrible. Well, I didn't mean- Is that what you're saying? So traumatic. Yeah, it was. It was, right?

Well, sure. Look, all childhoods are traumatic and horrible. Yeah, it was. It was, right? Well, sure. Look, all childhoods are traumatic and horrible. Yeah. And mine was that other version of it. But you had your mom. I had my mom. Who was an actress and quit. Who was an actress and quit it.

Did she have bad things to say about it? No, she just couldn't make a living. She needed to support us. Like, I think she did some weird shit in the 60s, right? Yeah, she did. Well, she did hair. That's where my parents met. In the show, the Broadway show. In the Broadway show of hair. Have you ever done

hair? I sang in a concert version of the UN on like the 25th or 30th anniversary or something. Of the hair? Of the show, yeah. Really? Mm-hmm. At the UN? Yeah, with Donna Summer. Really? Yeah. In the big room? In the big, well, I don't know. We were in Not in the room where they're all sitting with headsets. We were in a big room in the big well i don't know we weren't

not in the room where they're all sitting in a big room right no not that one no not the headset you weren't at a podium no not being translated no no no no but they broke up before i was born yeah and then my dad uh wasn't really around then i met him when I was like five. Yeah. Maybe six. He just came around? Well, I think somebody called him and was like, you know what? You got to get on this. Check in with the kid you had.

Your kid's like almost an adult. You got to call him. She's five. Yeah. She's almost an adult. She's almost, yeah. She's cooking meals for herself. You have to know. Someone's got to take care of her.

Get in touch. And he did. Yeah. And then I'd see him maybe once a year for like a week or two. But for the most part, it was just you and your mom. Yes. And so she was an actress. Wasn't she in Putney Swope?

Yes. Yes. She's the face-off girl. Yeah. Yeah. You gave me a dry hump. That one. Yeah.

Yeah, that's my mom. That's a pretty important movie. I know. It's a hugely important movie. Yeah. It's a life changer. I know. That one. Yeah. Yeah, that's my mom. That's a pretty important movie. I know. It's a hugely important movie. Yeah, it's a life changer. Yeah, I know, majorly. That not a lot of people know about. I know.

Well, they should. Yeah. Did you, all right, so what does she tell you? What does she say about acting to you? What does she? Nothing. Really? Well, she said something, I mean, you know, the standard stuff.

Like, it's not easy. Have taste. Yeah. Have integrity. But not the, like, it's crazy, you know, don't throw. Like, it's not easy. Have taste. Yeah. Have integrity. But not the, like, it's crazy, you know, don't throw your life away. I grew up around it. Everybody, you know, it was a foregone conclusion I was going to end up doing it. So your mom hung out with the crew, with the acting crew?

Pretty, well, all of our friends were actors. All of our friends were in the theater. All of them were in some way avant-garde-y. Oh, yeah? You know, my mom used to do shows do shows at like Top of the Gate. Oh, yeah. Remember like the Village Gate? Sure.

No longer there. Yeah, I used to do shows there. Yeah. They had the room upstairs and the little lounge room. That's right. And then the basement. The basement. With the big room.

That's right. The big concert room. That's right. The Lugovs. That's right. That's right. And she used to do like these sort of avant-garde concerts with Liz Suedos. Uh-huh.

And these sort of crazy sort of shows. So what was liz suedos uh-huh and these sort of crazy sort of shows so what was this like the 70s 70s yeah i'm born in 1970 all right so you're at you know in the mid 70s you're being taken out yeah and seeing weird shit weird shit and yeah and hanging out with liz suedos and all kinds of people singing songs with made-up words exactly a lot of like weird uh things. Right. Yeah. Like the woman who wrote Liz Suedos who wrote Runaways. Yeah. The musical Runaways.

Right. So she, like do you, and you remember it? Sure. Yeah? Oh yeah. And now I, well I imagine if you're seeing that kind of theater, why wouldn't you want to do it? Well yeah, it's just what everybody's doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it does, you know, it does, yeah, you can do anything. Yeah. Yeah. You can act like an idiot. Does that exist anymore? Maybe to a certain degree. Sure. I mean, there's still a mama still there.

But like, I wonder if that whole, that arena of like just doing like crazy raw shit. Yeah. Performance art doesn't really, it's not as much around anymore. I guess not. I guess it isn't. Or if it is, I don't go see much of it. No. No. No. Take the time. time no i don't really take the time out so when did you start working on being an actress like what was that well i know i didn't start working on it until later but the first

thing i did i was eight i did liz again she was doing she was trying she wanted to make a movie out of runaways out of her musical right and. And because I was always around, when my mom was working, she knew I liked to sing and dance and be a pain in the ass and so she put me in that. Yeah. And then the following year when I was nine she put me in her show

The Haggadah. Jewish show. Jewish show. I haven't figured that out. I'm like so quick. That's right. She wrote a musical about the Jews fleeing Egypt. And obviously the story of Passover. And Julie Taymor did all these puppets.

Yeah. And there were these big giant masks people wore. I remember the guy playing Moses had a big giant Moses head. Yeah, the Moses head. Yeah. That makes an impact when you're young. Yeah, yeah. giant Moses head. Yeah, the Moses head. Yeah. That makes an impact when you're young. Yeah, yeah. The Moses head.

And that was at the Public Theater, and that was my first real show. And was it a well-received show? It was. It was very well-received. Yeah. And there was puppets and humans? There were puppets and humans and singing and big giant papier-mâché heads that Julie Taymor made.

Yeah. This was 79. Uh-huh. And you remember Zvi Schooler? Uh-huh and uh you remember zvi schooler do you remember him he played the rabbi in one of the uh woody allen movies i'm trying to remember probably annie hall yes he's in annie hall he plays the rabbi in that oh really like a second yeah he when we did that he was about 125 when we did that perfect age perfect biblical yeah yeah so i did that and then i just kept doing plays and stuff for a while and then when i was 11 was the first time i did like i started like auditioning for things did you did you train no no no not at all no no why you just had it in you

well i don't know people like i just learned on the job yeah i think that's what most people do you know like like when you're like back in the back in the time of dickens yeah when children would go to work at six or seven to become apprentices yeah and they learn on the job that's like me i'm like i'm like a grimy dickens child actor too bad you never did Oliver. It would have been perfectly. So you started mostly doing theater. And were you like this kid that all these theater people knew? Like that's Clinton's kid? Among a certain crowd, yes, maybe. Maybe a little, yeah. And when did you start getting successful?

Well, you know, that's a relative term. I understand. Well, let's talk about it. I would say I started making a living at it when I was a teenager. After the movies? Yeah, when the movies started. Yeah. And what was the first big movie?

First movie I did, first big movie I did was The River Rat. I mean, it didn't end up being a huge hit, but it was like the first feature I ever did. Who was in that? Tommy Lee Jones and Brian Dennehy and me. That was it? It was a big, I got a big lead part and I was 12. Yeah. Yeah. And I had to learn how to ride a bicycle. I never learned how to ride a bicycle

living in Manhattan. Living in Manhattan and dad's out here. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And my mother did not want me to learn how to ride a bike. She didn't want you to? No, she didn't want me to. Too dangerous? Yeah. Didn't want to worry about it?

She didn't want to deal with it. She was too stressful. She wasn't really a big bike rider anyway. It just wasn't a priority. Is she still around? My mother? Yeah. Very much so.

Okay. I wasn't attacking you. Yes, yes. Yes. All right, so now you're like 12. Yeah. And you're with two like you know monster actors right brian dennehy right and tommy lee jones yeah i know i know were they uh did they were they nice yes well brian denny was very nice he was like a big papa bear kind of guy very sweet very affectionate yeah

big big hands big big guy and what was the relationship what was the movie about it was about um I played a kid who was growing up in the bayou right or no not the bayou but like on the river yeah and um my father gets out of jail yeah and meets me for the first time. And that's Tommy Lee Jones? Yeah. And Brian Denny plays his evil parole officer who's trying to get him put back in jail. Oh, because he thinks he's no good. Because he knows about a big treasure haul, like a big bunch of money hiding somewhere. Oh, so he's the bad guy.

Yeah, he's the bad guy. Yeah. And now, like, okay, so learning on the job, you know, you're working with these guys. It's the first movie set. Yeah. What were your first impressions? Like, oh my God, this is tedious. I had a blast.

I loved it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I had so much fun. I had so much fun. And then your mom had to go with you? Yeah, my mother was down there with me. Just hanging around?

Did you have to go to school on the set? I had to go to school on the set and the whole deal. Yeah. Yeah. And that movie was well enough received that you got more work? Well, it wasn't really, I mean, it was well received enough, but it was not hit by any stretch of the imagination, no. Right.

Is it a cult favorite? I wouldn't even say that. No. When was the last time you took a look at that work? I haven't seen it in a long time. Do you ever look at the work you do? I don't like to, no. I think I'm not very,

probably very good in that, although I was 12, so I got to give myself a break. Yeah, but you also probably had that spunky kid charm. Exactly. That was a tomboy thing. Yeah.

That was sort of like your hook for a while. Yeah, not too self-conscious yet. Yeah, yeah. That was the thing. Well, that was back when we had tomboys in movies. You don't have that anymore.

They're not? No, we don't do tomboys anymore. Haven't you noticed? I don't know if I was really paying attention in that one. No, in the 80s, remember, androgyny was kind of like a normal fun thing. Sure. There were a lot of girls. There were a lot of, you know, like Mary Stewart Masterson.

Right. Right? You know, like the short-haired, smart, kind of street smart girl. You don't have those characters anymore. No? No. Why? I don't have those characters anymore. No? No. Why? I don't know.

Something happened. I wonder. You think it was a conscious? There was a memo put out? I don't know. Enough with the tomboy. Something happened with the, I don't know, with ideas about women and sex and sexuality and pop culture.

I don't know what happened. Is it a positive or a negative that we're talking about? I think it's probably a negative. I miss reading and seeing stories about about tomboys well now you have uh teen girls who aren't necessarily always focused on boys and clothes and stuff we don't see as much of that anymore oh i i don't know that i i registered that no there you go well i learned something today yeah but i just I just like, I don't know. I guess I haven't seen a kid movie in a while or a movie with kids.

Right. Well, I mean, they're not. Yes, I don't see that many either. But you were like, you were around that. You were kind of one of them for a while. Yeah, that's. Yeah, exactly. I think that was my niche.

Yeah. And then Goonies was the big one, right? Right. Yes. Another tomboy. Yeah. Short-haired girls. Yeah. Short-haired that was my niche. Yeah. And then Goonies was the big one, right? Right, yes. Another tomboy. Yeah. Short-haired girls. Yeah, short-haired girls and, you know.

Yeah. But that was like a huge movie, right? Massive. Well, it's funny. At the time, it was not that huge. Yeah. And what happened? It just somehow became this like classic.

Classic nerdy kid movie? Yeah. Yeah. And who directed that don richard donner do you like when you work with directors do you register like like are there do you learn things from them yes yeah sure sometimes unless they're terrible at it but then you learn another kind of thing from them like like what not to do this guy's how not to talk yeah what was he like dick donner was great. He was a lot of fun.

I mean, it was a torturous experience for him because he was dealing with eight teenage children, most of whom were boys and horribly loud and noisy. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Brolin. Josh Brolin. Yeah. Yeah.

God, he was doing it that likely. I know. And now he's like a big, massive, huge, important A-list movie star. He's a pretty good movie star. He's very good. Right? Yeah. You watch him and you're like, oh my God.

I know. He's really good. Supposed to be up there. Had no country for old men. Oh my God. He was really good in that. And that, the other one, Milk? Oh yeah.

Right? Mm-hmm. That's crazy. Yeah, no, he's a really good one. Do you like still know these people? Not really. It's weird, right? I mean, I consider, I mean, i yes i know them but i we're not in touch i know i always that's one thing i've learned from doing the show over the years that none of you people we don't really

none of us people really like we all see you and you're like oh they're all hanging out no no you just go live your life yeah exactly so for the most part. Did you hit a place with this stuff, like the transition? Because it seems like you work constantly, or pretty a lot. Well, thank you. Right? Yeah. You're like a working actress person. Yeah, yeah.

But when did the sort of spunky tomboy thing, when did you transition? Late teens, early 20s, I stopped getting work in movies. Did you panic? No, I was annoyed. was pissed i was my ego was wounded yeah but i didn't panic no i kept working i kept doing plays i do some indie movies here and there uh and then i started doing more television guest spots really and then in my 30s movies like completely dried up yeah nothing nothing nothing and i haven't made a movie i think i've been i've done a couple of small parts in

maybe a handful of movies in the last 15 20 years but you did like a lot of television tons but let's talk about theater yeah because i like talking about theater me too because that's like the real the real the real deal in a way well because i just got done you know shooting a show for three months a tv show and like the one thing i noticed i'd never done it before i've done my own show but i had not done a part right is that the the waiting to act yeah it's it's kind of daunting i mean like i never realized that part of the job was you might have to sit around for 10 hours. Well, on a movie particularly. Right.

You have to manage your frustration. Right. Your resentment. Right. Your energy. Right. Right. Your appetite.

That. Yeah. Fuck. Because you could just graze and graze and graze. It never stops. You get this crafty pudge. That's right. That's right.

That's right. Like you're just watching people on set. Like, I I gotta manage this it's like John Lithgow says TV makes you fatter theater makes you skinnier because you're jacked

all the time because you're jacked all the time and there's not there's not a table out there that's right you get what you get

in your dressing room whatever you ask for and if you're gonna eat a big meal before the show that's a bad idea so usually there's like you're eating smaller meals you know what I mean

and then afterwards and then during the show you just sweat it all out right yeah and just have the melon slices that's right whatever's in the dressing room right whatever's in your rider right right the veggie plate yeah they don't provide that anymore no no you got to get your own food in the theater no maybe on the first day they give you bagels oh really yeah but after that it's up to you oh because you're there every fucking night yeah so when when did you start doing real theater well that was my the whole time i mean really the whole time really yeah and that was in new york yeah so you were

really or it or regionally i worked a lot in seattle i worked seattle rep a bunch uh does that mean you just take residence there? No. I mean, at the time, my mother was living out there. At the time, she was actually married to the guy who ran the theater there. What age were you then? I was in my late teens, early 20s. So you're doing these movies, making a little bit of money, then doing theater. And then that dries up, and I go to do the plays.

Now, what do you find? It's interesting to me that you really had no theatrical training. You just figured it out. Yeah, I just grew up around it, like I said. Yeah, but you got it, like, there's like, you must have some sort of natural propensity towards it. What'd you do up in Seattle? Which shows? I did a bunch of them. I did a couple of world premieres of Wendy Wasserstein plays. I did Heidi Chronicles and Sisters Rosenzweig up there when they premiered. Did you work directly with Wendy when you were premiering these shows?

Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah, she was there. Those are funny plays, right? Yeah, they're very funny plays. She was a phenomenally funny, wonderful, warm, sort of jolly laughter. She had this really jolly laugh. And this Jewish stuff.

Yeah, sure jewish stuff yeah well you could do it i could hear it like this well i'm a little i'm raised by jews so it's i'm a little bit like is your mom jewish i'm like the charzan of jewishness right right you're like uh you're right that you were raised in the jewish forest by jewish right that's right on the upper west side right well you can hear it like i didn't know you were so new yorkie yeah like you can hear in your voice you got that't know you were so New York-y. Yeah. Like, you can hear it in your voice. You got that.

Yeah, yeah. That's me, yeah. Is your mom Jewish? No. Oh, they were just around. My father's very excited that he recently learned we have some Jewish ancestry. Oh, really? Yeah. Dutch.

Dutch Jews. Dutch Jews. Yeah. Did you ever look at your, like, did you ever kind of, look at your, the sort of the legacy, the Carradine thing? Sure. Like your grandfather? Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. You never met him though, right? Oh, yeah, I did. You did? Oh, sure. I met him a bunch of times. The original Carradine? Yeah.

He was like- Oh, gee. Yeah. He was in like, what was he, what were the big movies he played? Grapes of Wrath. Yeah. But then he became like big in the B movies, like monster movies. Like he played Dracula a lot, Bluebeard.

He did a lot of movies with like Bela Lugosi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how old is he when you remember meeting him? He was in his late 70s. So he's conscious and spunky. Mid to late 70s. He was still conscious and spunky.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was always very sort of smart, sort of interesting, sort of dark, you know, dramatic figure. He was a Shakespearean. He was part of a touring Shakespearean theater troupe for a long time. Were you proud of that legacy? Very. Super proud of it.

Yeah. And your dad and his, oh, your uncle David. And then there's another one, right? There's Robert. Yeah, Robert, yeah. He was in that Sam Fuller movie, The Big Red One. That's right, The Big Red One, yeah. He's great in that. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a great movie. It is a great movie. Oh, yeah. Isn't it like Sam Fuller's last movie? And they did The Long Riders together. The Long Riders. All the Caridines.

All the three of them. And then it was The Riders together. The Long Riders. All the Caridines. All the three of them. And then it was the Quaid brothers. Right. And then it was the, come on, Waiting for Guffman. Help me. A guest. Christopher Guest. Yeah, Christopher Guest.

The two brothers, they were in it. I should watch that again. I should too. Yeah. Like, because, yeah. All right. No, my dad's in some pretty great movies. Oh, dude.

The Duelists. McCabe and Mrs. Miller is the best movie. Yeah. Yeah. All those Altman movies. That's right some pretty great movies. Oh, dude. The Duelists. McCabe and Mrs. Miller is the best movie. Yeah. Yeah. All those Altman movies. That's right. Nashville.

Yeah. Yeah. Altman loved him. Yeah. And then he was in that Alan Rudolph movie. Yeah, he did a lot of Alan Rudolph movies. Right. The Moderns. The Moderns.

Yeah. Wow. My dad's done a lot of interesting, cool movies. Did you ever go on set with those things? No, never. Because you weren't out here. No. Yeah.

No. And I'm glad you guys get along. Yeah, yeah, we do. Did you ever go on set with those things? No, never. Because you weren't out here? No. Yeah. And I'm glad you guys get along. Yeah, yeah, we do. All right, so let's talk about this. What were you doing in Chicago? I went out there. I auditioned for a play called The Libertine, which was a Stephen Jeffries play. He's an Englishman. And it was with John Malkovich.

How old were you then? Okay, it was 90. I want to say it was with John Malkovich. How old were you then? I was, okay, it was 90, I want to say it was 96, or I would have been 26, 27. Yeah. 96 or 97. And yeah, so I auditioned for that, and I got the job. I was very, very excited because it was at Steppenwolf. Yeah.

And it was a big part. A big part. You'd grown to respect Steppenwolf. Oh, very i mean i remember when i was younger seeing that they had filmed uh true west remember sure sinise and malkovich the original and laurie metcalf yeah yeah it's interesting that they definitely define some sort of like very edgy that's angry very 70s very yeah style into the 80s though really right yeah yeah but it started in the 70s i want to say mid to late 70s and all those people came out of there that's right joan allen yeah roy metcalf like tracy letts later that's right jeff perry i saw sinisa's very child on broadway yeah that didn't last long but it was a really good production it was great

yeah what's that terry kenny was terry kenny yeah underappreciated actor very much so and and That didn't last long, but it was a really good production. It was great. Yeah. With Terry Kinney was in it. Terry Kinney. Yeah. Underappreciated actor. Very much so. And doesn't particularly like acting anymore. I think he, well, he's a friend of mine and I, and I, he has said that he has reached a point, and this is something I completely get and understand, that the stage fright

has just, has beat, has won. Really? And so now he directs. He's got show now at lincoln center that he's just directed a theatrical director yeah richard greenberg play the stage fright got him yeah that's what he says and joan allen too has talked about that too she has she's got i think it makes perfect sense to me i think the more you do it and and the more uh people end up liking, it starts to become more and more terrifying rather than less and less for some of us, for some of us. You know, it's like Stephen Fry. Yeah. You know Stephen Fry.

I know of him, yeah. He's written about at that moment when I can't remember what the show was that he was doing, but it was in London. It was in the West. And he was in costume and the stage fright got him. And he literally left the theater, hailed a taxi, and disappeared for like a year. He went off to like an island. No shit. He was in his costume and he just like ran.

He took off. And didn't go back to the theater. I don't know. He did his own interpretation of the show. Yeah. And he's finally come back to the theater. But it took a long time. And that's something you experience?

I experience stage fright in an intense way. Yes. i totally relate to that what i could see that happening i've had fantasies about running out of the theater and handling a cat for sure when when you're in it though like does it start like a week before or just like right then that day i mean like what what is the soon as soon as after the first couple of previews i usually or around yeah for after first couple of previews it comes on because i'm on stage a lot as a stand-up and somehow or another that that has gone away well that's very but it's a different thing i don't know i don't know no no no it's just me like you after a certain point you know i'm gonna go out there and be myself and now you know a few people know who i. So it's a little easier to be myself.

Right. But what is the fear? What do you think? It's a good question. It's a black horror. It's just a terror. It's a breathless. It's not even specific. It's like it sucks the wind out of you.

And it's not like I'm not going to know my lines and they're not going to like me. It's part of, it's part that. It's part, it's just an existential it's like your heart just is going to leap out of your chest you can't hear you can't think it's just like your head's on fire oh it's not that sounds like a like a bonafide psychological syndrome it is yes it's been it's been studied yes it's a bonafide thing it's been studied and what they say that it's a bonafide thing it's a real thing

but you don't know where it comes from you don't know where well it's obviously anxiety related anxiety related and and you know it's a form of panic attack has it ever disabled you on stage it hasn't it has not yet knock wood disabled me but it's come close where you're in it and you're out of it and just in a in a state of pure just sheer terror really yeah yeah oh my god yeah i remember when we i did a musical i did this musical pal joey a few years back it's great rogers and heart right yeah and i hadn't done one in a long... I hadn't done a musical since I was a child. And I hadn't really sung publicly like that.

And, you know, once the orchestra starts playing, man, you know, the fucking train has left the station. And if you're not on it, you're fucked. There's no catching up. Right? Yeah, yeah. You can't go wait. No.

You can't improvise. And had to do that was scary and the first number i did uh uh which was like my first like big solo number with all the dancers around and then the dancing is involved and the choreography is involved and the band is playing the orchestra's playing and and the lights are on and the people are there yeah and the terror the terror of hitting the notes am i gonna hit the notes can i kick that high enough and i came off the stage and i just fell to my knees and i was just hyperventilating in terror and they had to bring me a paper bag really yeah but you got through it i got through it i don't know how and then afterwards john guare came backstage and he said, you know, you don't look like

you're enjoying yourself that much. You might want to try and seem like you're having fun. John Guare. Yeah. I met that guy. What did he have to do with it? He did the re- He just came to see it.

He just came to see it as a colleague, friend, supporter. Yeah, he's a smart guy. Wonderful man. Yeah, he's a nice guy. Wonderful man, but I will never forget him coming to my dressing room and saying, yeah, you know, one thing I'd like to mention, you might want to try and seem like you actually like being there. Like the exact worst thing to say at that moment.

But then you pulled it together and got through? Somehow, yeah. I got a Tony nomination, which was nice. I don't know how the fuck that happened. Somebody was having an off day. Come on. Somebody got confused. Maybe they were low on nominees that year. I don't know. But what is it about musicals? I can't imagine being in one. I would like to do it. I think I have a repressor. You have a good singing voice and everything? I can do it. Yeah.

I don't doubt it. I believe you. It doesn't seem necessary that it's good as long as it's authentic. Right. As long as it's authentic and honest. And in tune is good. Yeah. But even I've seen some slightly out of tune musicals that are fine. Yeah.

But to do a revival like that, I mean, it's just like you're just entering the American songbook. I know. Daunting. Yeah. Daunting. But fun. And then I had to-

You should look likeunting. But fun. And then I had to, well, in that show, I had to do that song Zip. Yeah. Which is, which Elaine Stritch did originally. Oh, really? And it's one non sequitur after another. So it's like a- And it's the most impossible song to learn. It's fast?

I don't know the song. It's not terribly fast, but it's just one sort of, of that period, sort of contemporary reference of the time. Yeah. So it's like Bob Dylan's It's All Right, Ma. Yeah, and it goes on. It's seemingly forever. And it was the only number in the show that I did completely by myself and in front of a curtain like three feet in front of the people. And every night I got out there and

exactly that would happen my head would go up in flames and it would just be my head was just a ball of fire for the three minutes that it went on or four minutes that it went on and then i would come off stage and cry or swear or you know right you know dry he heave and move on. So it'll be probably, it'll be a while before I do another musical. Well, and at that level too, I mean, Broadway, like the weight of it. Yeah, I know, it's scary. Because I think, and I've said this before on here, that the reason I immediately react to musicals,

it's not so much the song or anything else, that there's a vulnerability in singing and in theater in general. But for some reason, when I see someone singing in public with other people, I'm like, oh, my God. That's terrifying to me, singing in public. Singing in public is terrifying. Yes, it is. Right? Yes.

I don't like to do it, but I've done it. Right, but you can do it. And I've done concerts. I had a concert at Lincoln Center, that jazz at Lincoln Center, that was just all my, just my show with my band. Mm-hmm. And.

You have a band? Is it like a. I have musicians that I work with and I have a musical director. You do a cabaret thing? It's kind of a cabaret thing. Yeah. It's like a,

it's like a one woman concert with stories. So sure. Yeah. Cabaret thing, I guess. That happens to like a lot of people in theater do that it's a nice thing it is a nice do you do standards or what do you do um i've done some standards i've done some pop songs i've been the one i did in at jazz lincoln center was like part of the american songbook series so i did songs the theme of the night was was about growing up in new york

in the 70s and 80s so i chose a lot of songs that were sort of reminiscent of that period. That you chose. Tom Waits, some Randy Newman. What Randy Newman? I did It's Money That I Love and Jolly Coppers on Parade. But New York in the 70s, I didn't even really think about that. Like that, that was the heyday. Yeah.

I mean, that was when. In some ways, yeah. Well, I mean, it was. When it was cool and scary and dangerous and broke. Right, right. But also there was that, the whole tone of culture at some point in the late 60s and the 70s was really New York centric. That's right.

Well, because you could afford to live there. Artists could find places to live. They could find empty lofts and they could, you know, Lower East Side and they could squat and they could find a place to live. And now that's done because artists can't afford to live they could find empty lofts and they could you know lower east side and and they could squat and they could find a place to live now that's done because artists can't afford to live i don't know who's living there i really i i go there now because i lived on second between a and b for a couple years and then i lived on third and 16th for a few years and then i moved to queens but but i go there now i'm like is this a vacation island yes it's it's a shopper's it's a mall it's a shopping it's shopping. It's a shopping destination.

But it's very weird because who's in all the apartments? Are they just empty that rich people own them for the week? Many of them are, yeah. Those new ones, most of them are empty. They're like tax shelters. There's a lot of foreign money. Does it anger you? Yes, very much so.

And it's part of why I moved to Brooklyn now. I live in Brooklyn. And how's that? I love it. Yeah?'s that i love it yeah yeah i love it now when you were growing up did you go like you know how old you were born in 70s 1970 too young to like yeah do the whole kind of punk rock thing no no i did my girl my best friend heidi lived down in the village and she did a lot of that in the 80s she was a very precocious young teenager. So she, you know, when she was 14, 15, 16,

she was hanging out with that crowd. But that was sort of the tail end of the punk scene. So what did you grow up with? Like, what, Studio 54?

No, I was too young for Studio 54, but a lot of the Palladium. Oh, yeah, yeah. Danceteria? So a little bit of Danceteria, yeah.

Mud Club? Never went to the Mud Club. Yeah. The Tunnel. Oh, yeah. Limelight. Limelight. Yeah.

I had a bad night there yeah i'm sure yeah it was like a church yeah i kind of remember like you know being sweaty yeah i'm running around not having fun like and that was back when in the 80s when they let underage people into the club everything yeah everything yeah and like you know i just remember there were people having a good time but that eluded me yeah i was chasing a good time but i wasn't doing it properly oh yeah no i was having a good time because i wasn't doing any drugs or anything i was just dancing my ass off yeah right that's what the healthy fun people did yeah yeah yeah some people did drugs and dance their ass off right me i just did the drugs and got angry at people dancing yeah yeah the fuck are they doing they don't get it they don't get it yeah yeah

yeah but uh all right so getting back to this i and i'm now i'm tracking stage fright okay because it seems to me that if you're acting well because i'm not a great actor i'm not really a trained actor but like i you know i've done my my own show and i learned things but i was really like i was having these moments where i'd be having a scene with somebody and i'd be moved by their performance yeah and i was reacting to it inside like i'm like oh she's really doing a good job i'm about to cry yeah and they're like like and i think it was appropriate for the character but if you're that available that's got to be part of it like you know not that you're going to be rejected, but just that the emotional exhaustion that is about to happen.

Right. No? Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I think that's a big part of why I think getting to my age and a lot of actors who do get to my age eventually stop wanting to do it. Really? Like to retire from public life and just put this on the back burner and just not do this. Very. Yes, it's exhausting.

It's tiring. Is it rewarding though? It takes a lot. Still? I mean, is it not? It's a relative term, rewarding. I mean, it's rewarding when it's over. Right.

But the adulation is not enough after a certain point. That makes it harder. Yeah. but in you know but the adulation is not enough after a certain point no just because that makes it harder yeah the adulation i mean i think i don't know maybe there's a neurotic part of this it's also like the more people like it the less you well they sort of are motivated well but then i imagine that plays into this sort of like i'm tricking them i'm a fraud right you know like you know what i mean like what are they thinking you know we're doing this every night right suckers right right right and now you know not not then you're some sort of emotional criminal right right yeah yeah but but like i guess that i get it is relative that uh that like if the process is not you know if you don't love them. It helps me, which is a horrible thing to have to admit,

and this is a terrible confession to make, but it helps me to have a certain amount of contempt for the audience. Really? Yeah, that helps the stage fright. If I despise them from the get. Really? Yeah. It's nothing personal.

It has nothing to do with them. I don't want them to think I truly feel that way. Right. It's just a tactic that I use. You know. How does that help? I just stand behind the curtain before the show starts and just go, fuck them. Fuck you.

Fuck all of you. You fucking idiots. That helps. It's showtime. Yeah. And then da, da, da, da. You know, which is a terrible thing to admit because I don't want them to think that I actually am thinking that.

Well, I think it frees you from judgment from projecting judgment exactly right yes that's that trick it's simply a tool that i use as opposed to them you know knowing that like you know i could disappoint them right they might not like me right they saw this right if it's you're in my house now motherfuckers right that's a theater show some of the people there might have seen the original right right right right 90 right oh my god john guare's in the audience oh that's what if i don't look like i'm having fun and and you didn't there you go you didn't hate john guare enough that night that's right well they're never gonna say the right thing because then you get off stage even if it's the crowd had a great time you're wide open and some idiot comes up to you and goes like that was

pretty good and you're like what do you mean pretty good yeah right yeah what does that mean qualify everything you were brilliant and then you're like no i don't know yeah yeah you can't win no you can't win but you should just every time you go first of all you have to go backstage and then you have to tell them they were great and it has to be i don't care if you're lying you just have to say everything was amazing you're training people who who are able to get backstage that's right right yeah be nice yeah why you once i mean i was the same way but i don't think i i i ever thought about it the way you're thinking about it i i would find like i would see an audience in a comedy club or wherever and i would just feel a

vibe like i'm like, those four guys. I don't know. No, not them. Something not happening there. They're going to fuck up that whole section. And it's a different relationship you have with them anyway in that room. Right. I can't hide behind a character or a song.

We've got this marvelous gossamer wall between us and the audience. Do you know what I mean? I told Conan O'Brien when he first started, know we're we're on a commercial break and i said uh he goes man how you do this every night like it was early on we just got to tell yourself to hide the hate yeah just do that hide the hate hide the hate that's a mantra right hide the hate right or in my case yeah don't just openly hate them that's a that's a great way to prepare yeah well you know it's not healthy yeah for some but if it works for you so and then realizing to at the end you know it wasn't about them it wasn't about them you don't stop in the middle of the song and go like you

fuck yeah no you don't why are you entertained by this it's old right right and i genuinely do appreciate that they've been there i mean when we did the coast of utopia and we'd have these like marathon days this was a three the three plays the trilogy by tom stopper about the russians and there was some saturdays when we do all three plays in one day oh my god each play three hours long so it's nine hours really yeah so we'd start at 11 a.m and finish at 11 p.m and we'd had a had a cast of like 44 actors and those experiences were really extraordinary and you loved that because at the end of that day with that audience who'd

been sitting there with you the whole time you've all been through it was an extraordinary like experience full of gratitude and appreciation and also shared community and a journey. And that big a cast. I know. Huge, beautiful. And I imagine that element of theater and probably more than movies or television that, you know, you live in this community. Yes, totally. And it's a very intimate community.

You know, sadly sadly i'm not sure i know all the gaffers names on the show i just did right but you know but in theater you'll get there you'll get there oh yeah yeah you'll get their names yeah tonight at the wrap party yeah yeah i'll figure oh yeah is your wrap party tonight i don't wrap party tonight oh yeah yeah for the o'neill's real o'neill's yeah How many did you just do? We just did 16. 16? That was the second order? Yeah. What was the first order?

13. Yeah? Yeah. And do you, people liking the show? I think so, yeah. Yeah, I mean, our reviews are good. We got on a couple of, like, best of lists, which was good. Well, I think, like, I don't know that it's, I can't remember the last time that that's really been done, like the sort of Irish working class family thing.

Irish working class family with the gay son, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's probably never been done as out. In this way, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was the unspoken gay son. Yeah, sure. The priest.

Right. Or the gay son who's not supposed to be gay, but everybody knows he's gay, but they make him seem like he's not gay by making him like a nerd or something. And do you find this character fun and challenging? I do, yeah. I do. You're a mom. I know, again. It's weird.

And now I guess I'm going to keep playing moms because I'm 46 and that's what happens to women in this business. Would you want to play a 15-year-old? No, I'd like to play a 46-year-old single woman. Once, maybe. And have it be the lead. Who knows?

Sure. Or not. Look, I'll take the work I can get. I'm not complaining. Can we just go back to Steppenwolf for a minute? That experience, I would think that if you learned from doing that Steppenwolf must have been a sort of cathartic and important time. Yeah. And because I don't know what happens there, but it just seems about in terms of getting emotionally present and working shit out on stage, that's at a premium there.

Yes. And did you, so that was true? I think so, yes, yes yes although i had no formal training as we've talked about right in a way i think that sort of serves me in that in that environment and who were the who'd you work with john malkovich i work with a lot of the company members you know yeah i worked with uh john malkovich and Fran Guinan and Al Wilder and, yeah, a lot of people from that company. Marianne Mayberry. Was there an unspoken thing or did they know that they had this tone that they were working with?

Oh, no. I think it's not unspoken. I think they know it and they're conscious of it and they cultivate it in an intelligent way. I'm not saying it's, you know. Was there a manifesto that you were aware of? No, but I think they had a general attitude about why they do it, what interests them about doing it. Which was what? I want to say, I mean, I don't know exactly how to articulate it,

but I want to say it's sort of a, just a relationship with an unselfconscious type of performance that's rooted in some sort of weird Midwestern work ethic and ethos that is based in kind of, you know, a diet heavy in beef. I think you did it. Yeah. You summed it up. I managed. They put that on the brochure. Yeah. You summed it up. I managed. They put that on the brochure. Yeah. This production.

A little bit about Steppenwolf. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you just quote that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The beef tag is good. So you were there for what? How many? Did you live in Chicago?

Well, when I was working there, yeah. For months on end? Yeah. When I did the shows there, I was there for like four or five months. And then I went back a couple of years later and i did playboy the western world there the irish thing and um and then and that's when i joined the company that's why i think now you're a new yorker like it took me years to realize and to accept that chicago is definitely a great city and it's its own city like you know like because you when you spend time in new york you compare

everything to new york right and there's not very much that compares to it but like after going to chicago over the years i'm like this is its own thing i love chicago great i have i love it yeah i mean that's where i'd go if new york fell into the sea which it's looking more and more likely will happen culturally or otherwise precisely literally cultural yeah yes exactly i don't know what's going to happen there i i there's a i i don't know how new yorkers are reacting to uh to the emperor living there not well not well we're not enjoying we none of us can believe that this douchebag we've known about since the 80s we've all known yeah we've all known this guy we've seen him around he's been in the papers we know what

an asshole he is none of us can believe he's a president now yeah and now he's the king and he's in the middle of manhattan king he actually he thinks he's a king yeah he lives in his ugly tacky building that was despised from the day it went up yeah and. And now he's ensconced there like some kind of... It's just like this giant middle finger. Grotesque. Yeah. In the middle of Manhattan.

It's just like a giant turd. Yeah. Just a polished turd. Yeah. Blocking traffic. The traffic is worse than ever. It took me three hours to get to the airport the other day.

No. Three freaking hours. From Brooklyn? No. From Midtown to JFK. Because of Trump congestion? Because of Trump-related congestion. Trump-related traffic?

Yes. Trump-related... Well, they shut down a section of Fifth Avenue. Then they shut down a section of 56th Street. It's ridiculous. How do you feel... He better pay. He better pay for that.

Yeah. He's so rich. He'll find someone else to pay for it. He's so rich. Yeah. How else pay for it he's so rich yeah how how are you feeling about heading into this in terms of horrible horrible like horrible now the fight becomes like intense again it's intense and uh and also beyond anything that's ever been way beyond anything that's ever been right i mean this is a horror an unspeakable horror that cannot possibly we can't even predict how awful it's going to become right within a matter

in a matter of minutes yeah it's a tsunami yeah it's a tsunami of horror yeah i'm finding myself very, like, you know, whatever obstacles you overcome personally. Yes. Is all sort of like, you know, like now it's overshadowed. Yeah. Like there's dread. Yeah. There's terror. Right.

That, you know, that, you know, you can't even have that breath of like, I'm doing okay. I'm like, ugh. No, you can't. No, everything. Everything. The personal thing and then the rest of it i'm feeling simultaneously paralyzed enraged depressed anxious furious do you have any sort of hope or confidence in the arts to counter this like because i know that like there was some sort of we didn't we didn't do very well preventing it so i'm not sure so like because there was this initial kind of uh uh you know kind

of a uh aggravated optimistic reaction that like you know punk rock you know is gonna but like when you really think about it retrospectively even the art in the 80s right you know it does it did raise cultural awareness but what is its real power to push back? I mean, ultimately, pushback has to be organized, you know, communities and minority communities. That's right. And real sort of action. And concepts of protest are different now than they were then. Well, I don't know how activated the youth is.

Well, we'll see. know how activated the youth is well we'll see but it's hard to be you know in this sort of atomized world where where information culture uh you know shorter retention spans uh the ease of connection with none of the follow-through do you know what i mean twitter and all that bullshit you know everybody's saying oh twitter's the new way of revolution. No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. Revolution's the new way of revolution.

That's right. Exactly. It's like, you know, bodies in the street. Yeah. Hopefully, you know, stand. And we'll be there. I'll be there on the 21st. I'm going to march along with everybody else and do my best.

Yeah. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah, I don't. But I'm still in a state of every morning I wake up going, oh, my God, Donald Trump is the president of the. What? Yeah. What?

Yeah. No. Yeah. And then the tears come and then the ennui and then the fear and then the coffee and then. Right. And then, like, I guess I got to go to work. Yeah. come and then the ennui and then the fear and then the coffee and then right and then like i guess i gotta go to work yeah it's weird because it seems like work is somewhat the one thing that kind of keeps you from falling completely down right the hole yes and i imagine that while doing a show

that has some social relevance is good. That's good. It makes me feel good to know that there's people out there who actually have relationships with their parents again because of watching the show. Is that true? Yes, it is true. I've been told this many times.

No kidding. It's very, very moving. It's lovely. That's great. Yeah. That's a great feeling. Just that one email or that one person. That's right. I feel myself choked up now. Yeah. That's a great feeling. Just that one email or that one person. That's right.

I feel myself choked up now. Yeah. We were in West Hollywood for this event at a bar in Boys Town. And they do a live screening of our show every week at this bar called Revolver. And we were there last week. And a bunch of people came over and said, you know, how much, first of all, how much my character reminds them of their mom. bunch of people came over and said you know how much first of all how much my character reminds them of their mom or you know and then one guy comes over and he says i just want you to know because of your show my mother and i started talking again we hadn't talked for years and and

we started talking when the show we came on last year and she started watching it and now we're friends and and she gave me away at my wedding to my husband. I mean, where else? I mean, that's an incredible thing. Yeah. So we have that. But that's not nothing. It's not nothing. It's huge.

And I think looking in the next four years, that's what we have to do. Yes, yes. Because I've said it before that what the popular vote means is that we have to watch each other's back and that we're not some sort of weird cloistered minority. No, no, we're not. We're the majority. Right. And now we've got to figure out how to keep culture and humans acting fucking properly. That's right.

And being decent. Decent. Decency. Right? Mm-hmm. humans acting fucking properly that's right and being decent decent decency right you didn't think that that was a risk but it becomes a risk pretty fucking quick that's right well i knew it was a risk because of these assholes for the last eight years being indecent i mean that's what they do right i was but not empowered i was exactly but now they are right and i was that was that's the part oh the indecents one yeah yeah yeah yeah so how's the um how'd the new season go it went really well yeah yeah really well you like the scripts who's writing i love the scripts it's casey gettinger and and david windsor um casey johnsonettinger, and David Windsor, and then a wonderful

stable of brilliant, very smart people. Staff writers? Yeah, a lot of them. There's like 19 of them. It's crazy. And how'd you get the gig? You just auditioned? No, amazingly, I didn't have to audition.

Can you believe that? Yeah, of course. I couldn't. Your thing. I couldn't believe it. They won. Well, you know, it's loosely based on Dan Savage. Does he have a credit on it? He does. Oh, that's really yeah yeah i love him i love him too i love him too he's not around that much anymore he's kind of taking a back seat

but but he is producing partner brian pines is there all the time and and uh yes so dan called me dan savage called me up and um you know have a relationship, a little bit of one. We sort of like a little bit of email friendship. From when you were in Seattle? No, no, just from our work as activists in our various fields. And we've had conversations before. I've been on his podcast, yada, yada. And no, he called me up and he said, I want you to play my mother or the woman based on my mother.

And I said, well, yeah, okay. I'll see you there when what time yeah and wait where's that what network's it on abc so it's like like that yeah like it's america i know it's crazy and it's wonderful yeah it's on a night with like we got the blackish yeah you know we got the fresh off the boat with an asian family Asian American family. I feel like they're just, you know, and now, you know, ABC now has the first black woman running the network in their history, who's a fantastic woman. They have an interest, I think, in actually sort of,

I mean, obviously it's network television, you know. It's got its commercial appeal in all of this. But they're making a strong effort to actually tell stories about a diverse cross-section of people, which I appreciate. It's an amazing thing because the power is still, network television still means something. That's right. Despite whatever the media landscape looks like. And that's when, you know, like what happened when the guy came over to me the other night. It was like, oh, wait a minute.

This is a real thing and this is this you know no matter what happens during the day when we'll read the script you go i'm not sure about this joke that in the end of the day which is an expression i hate but i've just used it people are moved by these things people's lives are changed by these things you come into their house and you become a part of their world it's wild yeah it's why and also that generation of people who's not the you know on amazon that's right necessarily watching uh uh whatever that's right which is kids and old people uh-huh right that's right those are important that's right and how's this experience television wise you know versus like you i mean you did a long time on Raising Hope. It was great. Yeah.

It's a completely different experience. Right. Greg Garcia, whom I love and would work with again in a heartbeat, is a much more sort of central leader, centralized showrunner and creator and has his hands in everything. Yeah. And you really feel Greg Garcia. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're working for him.

And I love working for him. This is different. There's a larger staff of writers. There's sort of a triumvirate of showrunners. And it's a little bit more, you know, sort of spread out between them. And the show itself, I think, is more, even though there's a lot of risks taken and it's, you know, I think in some ways

it's more family, it's sort of a little more, maybe a little more conventional. Right, right. Right. Because like the delivery system has to be uh understood that's right you know yeah you don't exactly there's a generation of people you don't want to tune in go like what's happening that's right yeah yeah yeah they still out there yeah and it's abc and the other one was fox you know yeah yeah yeah well that's great yeah so you got a wrap party

tonight we got a wrap party tonight where's your wrap party downtown yeah ours is somewhere else hollywood where are you shooting mostly uh abc disney okay it's great out here in burbank yeah okay i love it and they've built all the sets and oh yeah it's great it's i i love that about show business does that excite you do you have i love it i love a lot i love working on a lot I really do we shot Raising Hope in a warehouse in way you know

where they used to make the porn movies in the valley yeah way way out there it was just a warehouse like a converted now we're on a lot and I love

I love being on a lot the Disney lot it's beautiful yeah yeah you get your little badge yeah yeah yeah I love that and then you know

the guy at the gate yeah exactly oh yeah it's like you know the commissary you know I love that. And then you know the guy at the gate. Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah. It's like, yeah. You know, the commissary. You know, I love that. I love it.

Yeah, it's like studio. Yeah, yeah. We're shooting on stages, but I'm always fascinated where, you know, it's the same in theater, though, where you have this room and then just outside the room, there's this guy standing around. They built a room. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then when you walk into the room it's like a magic space right it's

magic space exactly yeah yeah it's so exciting so what do you do now you're gonna go back to new york go back to new york i'm gonna go i'm going to i'm going to edinburgh for the new year then i'm gonna go to london for a little while see my fella yeah edinburgh yeah for what for new year's for hogmanay just oh really yeah just for fun i'm yeah i'm gonna take in my mom i'm gonna meet my guy. And then I'm going to come back here. I bought a house out here, Mark. You did?

Yeah, I bought a house out here. Do you like it? I never thought I would, but it's the right thing to do. Well, now that the world's going to fall apart and everything's going to implode. Yeah. Real estate. Real estate, baby. Real estate.

Is that it? That's the plan because also I'm getting older. Is this something you heard? The work's going to dry up eventually. No, this is the way to do. So now I can, if I have real estate, then I have, you know, some passive income. You know what I'm saying? When everything falls apart.

You can rent it. That's the idea. To the people that are here seeking asylum. That's right. That's right. That's right. When California detaches itself from the union. That's right.

It's about time, you know. I bought my first house at 42. This is my second home it is oh you bought the one in brooklyn too oh yeah yeah thank you television thank you very much for helping me to become an adult yeah very good yeah this is the first one i bought and then like for me though like i can't understand why people buy other ones like right and they're leaving this place like but i have the cats are they're comfortable here well i see that's i don't have cats no but i mean having them in different places is one thing but the idea that like i live alone and i have a second bedroom that i don't really know what to do with i have a closet

in there right and my records yeah but like you know the idea is like well get it you should get a bigger house i'm like no that sounds you're fine you don't need a bigger house right i'd need to fix this one, though. Yeah. But you like California now, though. Yeah, I mean... Well, I have a lot of family here, and I'm used to... And I do. I mean, when I was a kid, I didn't like it so much. Now I enjoy it.

I think as I get older, it's more of a retirement community type feel for me. It's like... Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. You mentioned Elaine Stritch. Are you friends with her? Did she pass away?

She's passed away. Just recently, though. Yes, we did get to know each other a little bit. It seems like there's something in common there somehow. People have mentioned that. People have made note of that. Does that bother you? No, of course not.

It's a lovely compliment. She was a little nuts. I like to think I'm maybe not quite as high maintenance, but I'm getting there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll all happen for you. Yeah. So when you're out here, you spend time with your siblings?

Yes. I see my siblings. I see my family. And you like the weather? I like it. I enjoy it. It's weird how you come around to LA. You do.

You come around to it. Like when you're in New York. I like the Huntington Gardens. I like to go stroll through the beautiful gardens. My girlfriend does that like three times a week. Yeah. It's really, really nice. She's a member.

Yeah. Me too. She's a member. Me too, I'm a member. I love it. I'm probably going to see you there when she is able to drag me out there. Yeah, you go on a Sunday, you have a nice tea. It's all you can eat tea. I'm sure you've seen her. Possibly, yeah.

But do you have the little sandwiches and stuff? Yeah, the sandwiches and the scones. She usually goes to the Chinese garden to get the tea there. I love the Chinese garden. Oh, beautiful. I haven't had the tea at the Chinese garden i love the chinese oh beautiful i haven't had the tea at the chinese garden yet i should try that well yeah they have chinese tea and like

almond cookies and stuff yeah lovely all right all right all right well best of luck with the reception of the new seasonork you can also go to wtfpod.com for all your wtf pod needs order a poster check my tour dates i'm heading out a lot of dates coming up toronto sold quick i guess i got some fans and uh up there in canada canada canada canada yeah no sneeze Up there in Canada. Canada. Canada. Canada! Yeah. No sneeze. Thank you. Boomer lives! Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.