WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 775 - James Hetfield

Episode Date: January 8, 2017

Before James Hetfield formed Metallica, his musical awareness was shaped in equal parts by classical music, Aerosmith, and the desire to kill disco. James talks with Marc about the band's continued growth, his recovery from not only addiction but also anger issues, and his belief that bands need to reconcile no matter how bad the break-up. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck

nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is the WTF podcast. Welcome to it. How you holding up? Are you all right? Are you keeping it together just take a breath just take a breath no it doesn't matter where you are if you're in your car if you're on the treadmill if you're a climbing everest well i don't don't go crazy with the breath i know how that goes and also get down just get the fuck down. Seriously. Turn around and go. It's not worth it. Just pretend like you made it.

Make it in your mind. Climb Everest in your head and consider yourself victorious. Do that. That's self-empowering. What's happening? I am happy to say that I got James Hetfield from Metallica here. Metallica. Honestly, I was not teenage during the rise and reign of Metallica.

So my knowledge and connection was not one of whose post-pubescent years were altered by Metallica. I did not have Metallica coursing through my cock as it moved into the world. But I did take it in. I'll explain a little bit my relation with Metallica in a second. I do want to bring it to everyone's attention that I will be touring. Some of you know that. I've got a lot of tour dates coming up in January, February, March, and April. Mostly in February, March, and April. I will be in Tallahassee, Florida at the Ruby Diamond Concert Hall on January 24th.

I'll be at the Carolina Theater in Durham February 17th. The Knight Theater in Charlotte February 18th. I'll be at the Ridgefield Playhouse in Ridgefield, Connecticut, March 2nd. The Music Hall in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, March 3rd. Olympia de Montreal in Montreal, Quebec, March 4th. The Danforth Music Hall in Toronto, Ontario. That's sold out on March 5th. College Street Music Hall in New Haven, March 10th.

Troy Savings Bank Music Hall, March 11th. Flynn Center in Burlington, Vermont Haven March 10th. Troy Savings Bank Music Hall March 11th. Flynn Center in Burlington, Vermont March 12th. I'll be in Oakland at the Fox Oakland March 24th. I'll be at the Moore Theater in Seattle March 25th. I'll be at the Vogue Theater in Vancouver on March 26th. Paramount Theater Austin, Texas March 31st. Boulder Theater, Boulder, Colorado, April 7th. Paramount Theater in Denver, Colorado, April 8th. Aladdin Theater in Portland, Oregon on April 21st. Aladdin Theater in Portland, Oregon again on April 22nd. I'll be at the Pabst Theater in Milwaukee on the 27th of April.

The Orpheum in Madison, April 28th. The Pantages in Minneapolis on the 29th. Two shows at the Pantages. I believe we're shooting a special there. I'll be at the Miriam Theater in Philly, May 12th, and the Warner Theater in D.C. on May 13th. Woo, doggie! And those are all the dates. If I didn't get to your city this tour, get to one of the cities I mentioned because I don't know how much longer. I don't know when the next tour will be because I'm going to lay back

and put shit together at my own pace. Tired of rushing. There's no struggle. There will be a struggle, but it's not with me. Yeah, so this will be the last tour for a while. I'll be doing dates here and there, and and i'll get out you know i i you know i say these things i'm being dramatic but i do want some downtime to sort through stuff because i'll tell you these last couple weeks aside from mentally preparing for the tremendous shift in the fabric of the country and the world that happens this month i um i've enjoyed uh the downtime to sort

of like regroup dig into my own life you know figure out where i stand watch some compelling informative uh documentaries read some books searched through shit i just watched adam curtis's earlier doc the century of the self which was again a nice preface to the new one hyper normalization which has really shifted my perception and also uh as bleak as it all is it's very relieving how much of it was seemingly out of my control personally um I think balls were dropped, but not necessarily mine directly. And perhaps with the new perception,

we can move forward with open eyes a bit. I regret to say, because I know a lot of you hold on to these expectations. I regret to say there'll be no guitar playing at the end of today's show because I've injured myself I've lopped off a piece of my finger that's the price you pay for getting a new knife for Christmas all my knives are just dull enough not to slice a piece of my fucking finger off

so I was gifted this beautiful big new knife and I was excited about it because I enjoy a sharp knife but I think ultimately I'd gotten used to my semi-sharp knives and I wasn excited about it because I enjoy a sharp knife but I think ultimately I'd gotten used to my semi-sharp knives and I wasn't afraid of them or did I think twice about them they were sharp enough but I had surrendered to the idea that these were the knives I've been given but someone sent me a new knife and the other day I was cutting through some tofu and cutting them into cubes so I could fry them up a bit for my girl, Sarah, who's a veggie. And I eat better when I date vegetarians. That's not why I'm dating her.

And I slice down and you know that first ping, that little like, ooh, that is a bad feeling on my skin. But you know exactly what that feeling is it's not pain at first it's just i've cut my finger how bad is it you have no idea until you pull it out and there's blood going all over a big chunk of tofu bloody tofu that's not on the menu. And I look at it. And look, I've been in the restaurant game. I did my time in delis. I did my time as a short order cook.

I sliced through my fucking thumb. Cutting a bagel. Needed four stitches. I've lopped off the tip of that same thumb on a slicer. Not paying attention. Moving through some roast beef. Yeah. I've had to wrap the bloody restaurant rag washcloth around my hand

as I was driven to the hospital with my hand out the window, elevated up like some sort of bloody turn signal. I've been there. I've been through those restaurant wars when I was a younger man. So I was familiar with the situation. So I pulled my finger out, blood's coming out of it. And there was a flap, just a flap on my pointer finger, just a flap of skin, nice little circle, just lopped off a little, just the tip with prints and everything, just gushing blood. Sarah's getting nauseous. Got to clean it out. Dump some peroxide on it. The flap is barely holding on. You don't

know what to do in that moment because you know, those of you have been through this, I'm going to walk you through it, that if you lop a piece of your finger off, if you don't try to salvage the flap of skin or however much finger you cut off, then you've got that weird open raw thing that's got a scab down below the nerves and uh it's tedious and very sensitive for a long time so you want to try to you want to try to save that flap i knew i couldn't get it stitched on because if i would have went to the emergency room i would have waited would have cost me some bread and they would have said we're not going to stitch it we're just going to cut that shit off and put some goo on top of it and dress it so i'm thinking we're going to save

it man we're going to save that flap so i put it on peroxide it cleaned it out put some neosporin gauzed it up and i've been uh gauzed dressing it twice a day and i think the flap is taking and that's going to be the name of my new cd but uh i think the flap is taking and i'm I'm just amazed and obsessed with the miracles of the human body. I hope it takes, it's not, it hasn't turned black. It hasn't dried up.

It hasn't fallen off. It's good. It's a perfect little circle on the tip of my finger and I'm just keeping it dressed and I'm not fucking ramming it into anything. And I'll be so proud of my skin. If it takes James Hetfield, Metallicaica i got the opportunity to talk to him he was out making the rounds i was happy to talk to him but nervous as i usually am when you talk to a recording artist that has many records out uh you may know a couple but uh depending on your

fanness i knew obviously metallica I know some Metallica records. I listened to the new record. I enjoyed it because most Metallica stuff I'm coming to with fresh ears. I went through their whole catalog. I tracked the evolution. But again, my dick wasn't into it. Like, I wasn't, you know, it did not interface

with my rage complex. When I was younger, my rage was not as defined. And, you know, I was sort of, as you know, blues-based brain. ACDC was my metal guy. And I don't know if they're metal. I'd consider them more hard rock. But ACDC, they were them. But I was not specifically metal.

You know, metal is metal. I mean, when I was in high school, you know, Judas Priest was around, but I didn't lock in. I wasn't locked in as it didn't integrate with my teenage sexual frustration and general angst. So I did not have that emotional, visceral connection to the music of Metallica. So I came to it all with open mind and open heart and I enjoyed it and I love the new record.

I came to it all with open mind and open heart and I enjoyed it and I love the new record but it's interesting you know because I I um I I inherited all these records I told you about that woman Kristen who gave me her dad's records well I've been going through them some of them I had some of them I didn't need some of them I hadn't heard in a while. Some of them were completely new to me. But the point is, a lot of Jethro Tull. I mean, like a lot of Jethro Tull. Now, look, I'll be honest with you. I saw Tull when I was in high school, I believe, in Albuquerque. I remember because we went and my buddy Chris tried to smuggle a half pint or a pint of Southern Comfort in, in his sock. And we got it in.

And then when we jumped the guardrail to get down into the pit from the outside seats, the grandstand seats, the bottle broke and cut his leg open. I don't remember what happened after that, but I do remember that happened. I don't think we went to the hospital, but it was not a good situation. But I think Southern Comfort has curative powers, both as a drink, an anesthetic, and also as an antiseptic cleanser of wounds. So I did see Tull. Tull did not stay with me. But since I had all these records i was listening to some tall i listened to aqualung i listened to benefit i listened to living in the past because i had

these records and it was weird because there's a couple of songs on aqualung that i think that metallica could cover there was a tonal similarity so i was able to track some of the hard rock metal roots, especially the way Metallica does it, where you're moving through slower songs, more ballad. They're not ballad, but they're definitely slow and thoughtful. Even the singing a little bit. I didn't bring this up with Hetfield

because it happened after I talked to him. My second wife, Mishna, was a complete fucking metalhead. So I went through eight years of that. I mean, we had in our house, there was a room and a full shelf dedicated to metal action figures, Ozzy Osbourne, Metallica. There was a lot of metal in the house at that time. So I don't know if I grew to appreciate it then or resent it,

but it was around. What I'm saying is I'm open. Metallica's good music and the new record is good. And I was excited to talk to Mr. Hetfield and the new record is called Hardwired to Self-Destruct. It's out now. And this is me and James talking. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, Talk. And we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly.

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And policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Are you good? Is it good in your head? Is what good in my head? Anything? Anything good in my head? Is there anything good in your head? Yeah, sounds good.

Anything? Anything good in my head? Is there anything good in your head? Yeah, sounds good. I mean, I lived in the Bay Area, and you guys are very, or you were at least, very present socially in the Bay Area. I knew people that were like, oh, yeah, Lars' house. People had stories about this or that. But you're not indigenous to the Bay Area.

You're from here. Yeah, I grew up in Downey. Now, what is out in Downey? Right now? But when you grew up, I have a in Downey. Now, what is out in Downey? Right now? But like when you grew up, I have a hard time picturing it because I think I talked to Dave Alvin and Phil Alvin. They came from the outskirts somewhere. But I have no sense of what the outskirts of Los Angeles are. Yeah, Downey is, gosh, when I was growing up, it was basically, you know, it was kind of suburbia.

Yeah. You know, there was the mall down the street, and it was a great place to grow up. The mall. It was a cool neighborhood. I could walk to or ride my bike to every school. Right. You know, elementary, middle school, high school. Just American towny land.

Pretty much. I think right now there is somewhere like a poster or something written on one of these big electrical boxes that are on the corners. It's the home of James Hetfield and on the other side, and the Carpenters. So there you go. They must have switched it at some point. I think they did. Yes. The Carpenters were definitely bigger news than me, for sure. A little while ago. Not anymore. You beat them out. That's weird.

They came from there, too? Yeah, they did. I remember growing up, and we would drive to church. On the way there, there was a close to me, and gosh, I can't remember what. But there were the names of the condo apartment buildings that they owned. So the carpenters owned some apartments there. They had business. They were business people. They were.

Small business owners in Downey. They were thinking ahead. Real estate people. Exactly. I think the brother's still alive. I think so. Did you ever hear that movie, the Karen Carpenter story that was done by Todd Haynes with just Barbie dolls? It's great.

It doesn't matter. So Downey, you're on your way to church. You drive by the condos. What kind of church? Christian Science. Oh, my God. Yeah. So driving there, and I thought, oh, wow, the Carpenters.

They own apartments? They've made it. Yeah. I got to beat them out on an electrical box at some point. Yeah, yeah. And you did it. You did it. You did it. I did.

Now, like Christian scientists, what's her name? Eddie? Is that her? What's the woman? Mary Baker Eddie. Yeah. That's a big. Yeah, I was in Boston, and they had a big Christian scientist thing there.

Yeah. It's an interesting concept. Did you get out of it? I did. Yeah. I did. And yeah, I mean, did you get out of it? Was it a cult? Yes, it And yeah, I mean, you know, did you get out of it? Was it a cult?

Yes, it was a cult. Well, they're all cults, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, yep. Some cults are better than others. I agree. You know what I mean? They can work.

You know what I mean? If you're not hurting anybody. Hey, the Metallic cult is doing well. Alive and well right now, man. Sure is, man. That new record is like, it's great. Yeah, thank you. I mean, it's really great. And I, and i you know it's like i haven't followed you the whole way and like we're like the exact same age so when i was in high school you know we were listening to different

things but i think that like a lot of times i would imagine with metallica that a lot of your fans start when they're in high school i'd imagine so right just pissed off they're pissed off and hate life and yeah i wish they were somewhere else well the weird thing about this record was that i'm listening to it like recently and uh and as a grown person a grown-up man who wasn't programmed by the metallica cult in high school i was like holy shit this yeah right you're gonna get me i was like this is good fucking rock i mean i was like it was i was all in the whole time all the way through nice and then i listened to most of your catalog in the last three days so i i've witnessed the

whole evolution of you and the fellas like in like 78 hours you're brave you're brave well it was just interesting to hear you singing on the first three records, and then at some point he's like, there's the voice. Yeah. You know, can you listen? His balls dropped. Wow. Or at least one of them did.

Can you hear that? One of the three. Can you listen to that stuff? I have to. You do? It's on the radio. I mean, I don't have to listen to it. But like the really old stuff, like the first three records.

Do you ever go back? I don't particularly put them on but if we're rehearsing a song that we haven't played in a long time you know i'll go back and listen to it or yeah gosh uh all right hockey fans san jose sharks you go and we go to the shark tank watch the sharks play seek and destroy is their you know skating out music and i can't believe it's like are you kidding me this is horrible this sounds terrible get a remixed version

come on you should just give it to them show up and give it to them the skating scene you know it's this little little kid man

maybe you should fucking do one specifically for them that's a good idea we should so when when did you start singing

well no finally no I kind of hear it. It's like the fourth album, right? Yeah, kind of. Where do you consider it happening? I think the Black Album.

I don't know. It's all singing. It's all me, and it's exactly where I was. And that's as good as I could do back then, and this is as good as I can do now. And who knows? Well, I think that's what makes it such a unique voice, is that you just you know you're not trying to be anything else you're just figuring it out right exactly that's kind of what i do everywhere even right now i'm thinking out loud and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't i thought the three ball thing was very good it was a nice riff it

was good but how do you get from like you know driving around the car and downy like when do you get from driving around in a car in Downey? When does the shit switch in your head where rock and roll becomes essential? When did you start waking up to the power of rock to make you feel better? Right. Well, that's an easy, easy memory for me to access. Really? It was freshman. Well, it was the beginning of sophomore year at Downey High when I showed up for football practice again. I'd been on the freshman team, showed up in the summer to start rehearsing, to start practice. Getting the act together.

And I showed up and I had long hair. Yeah. together and uh i showed up and i had long hair yeah and the coach just said hey yeah you know you're gonna have that cut you know by next week yeah i said uh why it's like well because it's sticking out of your helmet you know it's like oh that's the that's the limit right there the helmet you know it's like yeah but i'm playing in a band and i like music and it's like well you can't you can't do that. So I never came back. That was it. Fuck you.

Yeah. In my head, yeah. I still had to graduate. Right. You made a quiet choice. This was sophomore year. A quiet fuck you and just got into music. That was it.

My brother, I have two older half-brothers, 10 years older than I. Oh, really? They had music. They were in bands. Whose kids were they? Your mom's? Yeah. Yeah.

Same mom. So my brother was in a band called The Bitter End. They had purple and black suits all matching and big thick belts. And they were playing Jimi Hendrix covers and stuff like that. Was he a guitar player? Drummer. Oh, he was a drummer. Drummer. So no guitars in the house. There was guitars stuff like that. Was he a guitar player? Drummer. Oh, he was a drummer. Drummer.

So no guitars in the house. There was guitars in the house. There was a piano. There was a drum kit. So I'm eventually going to play drums. Really? That's what you're moving towards? Well, this is hot news right now.

I've never told anyone. But yeah, I'm working on being a drummer at some point. Are you really? Yeah. And Lars wants to sing. so it's a good trade. Yeah, so that'll be a more relaxed album. Not for the listener, but good trade for us. Have you tried it?

Drums? I love. I mean, have you switched up in the studio? Oh, yeah, we have. In the studio? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no, we did it live in concert. Oh, you do?

Oh, yeah. It was a song called Am I Evil? It's not the most difficult song to play. So we would just switch up, you know? Yeah, yeah. And Kirk would play bass, and we would just switch the whole thing up. What else does Lars play? Nothing.

He just ran around, and he was like a madman. It was so funny. There's a lot of madmen. Robert's kind of a madman, too. There's no doubt about it. But Lars wanted to be the front man. I don't want a guitar. I just want to run around.

Yeah. And by the end of the first verse, he was winded. Because he ran all over the place trying to be like Bruce Dickinson or something. Jumping off everything and doing the splits. Yeah. Yeah. And then that was it. He had to take a rest.

He had to take a break. Well, I think that was his a rest yeah take a break well i think that was uh his his fantasy in you know a five minute song and then he was done yeah got it out of his system yeah yeah right so your brother was playing hendrix covers wearing the matching outfits and stuff when did you start learning how to play music well i think i fiddled around with it when i was a kid just because the instruments were around who Who played guitar in the house? My older brother. Oh, he had a, it was pretty much just an acoustic guitar.

Uh-huh. But, you know. Not the drummer brother, the other one? Yeah, Chris. Yeah. That's his name. David, the younger brother. He was in a band and they would rehearse in our garage and they weren't supposed to.

And one of those things where, you know, okay, the parents are gone. He's calling everyone up. Come on over. We're going to jam and then I go out there and wow. Yeah. And just everything about it

and noise, the fact that they weren't supposed to be doing it. Was there a couple of smoking girls sitting around watching? I don't remember that part. Because he was always like

in the rehearsal space, there's always like one or two chicks. Just like, oh, it's just a friend of ours down the street. Yeah.

Our first groupie. Yeah, yeah. You don't remember that part? I don't remember that part, but I'm sure that came in soon after that. But, you know, the whole, just the smell. Yeah. The smell of the amps, the smell of the tubes cooking. Yeah.

There was something exciting about, you know, the leather on the amp. Yeah. Or the vinyl the gear baking the gear smelled and uh and then you know parents coming home soon oh everyone get out of here and then scrambling with equipment yep and then uh they'd you know hey what are you guys doing and i hey eddie let me play his his guitar or and i played the keyboards you're like what play his his guitar or and i played the keyboards you're like what you blew it yeah my brother's like tell me oh sorry so that was like right when he started to get did you take lessons i took piano lessons after that you know i think what had happened is we had a piano in the house yeah

but i wanted to play drums so that was just i'm just banging on the piano doing rhythms right and they thought oh he's a piano player. He wants to play piano. So I took that for three years in elementary school and hated almost every minute of it. That probably helped, though, right? Oh, it totally helped. I am super grateful that my mom thought to, hey, let's do that. It was at some old lady's house.

Right. Stunk. Cookies at the end was definitely the best part but you learned how to read music yep learned how to read music classical shit yep yeah that because that plays in man well left and right hand doing different stuff and singing so there's like three things going on so i'm there's no doubt that helped me with my ear and it helped me with uh you know just uh, just, uh, being able to sing and play at the same time. And some of this stuff like structurally, it seems is not like, you know,

you're not like a traditional kind of blues based band. It sounds, it seems like you kind of like, you know, you get around that and it seems like it's almost classical sometimes. Right. It's definitely machinery and classical kind of together. I think, like you said, the piano has, you know, different voicings and layers and stuff. And it's not just stripped down blues at all. Yeah. You know, we messed around with that for a little while. But, you know, always felt a little orchestral, you know. Yeah.

Orchestral even. Yeah, because I noticed, like, it's interesting, too. Like, and maybe I'm being crazy because, like, again, like, I don't have the whole catalog in my head. But this record, the new record, because I'm like a, you know, I'm more of a, you know, a hard rock guy than, you know, than I am like a thrash metal guy. But, like, it seems like there's, like, you open up with the fucking,

you know, right away. But then, like, it seems like there's a little more space with some of this shit. Am I wrong? It seemed like you guys were, like, Kirk and you were doing, like, it wasn't, it seemed like some of the licks actually had some air to them, like, almost bluesy. Is that wrong for me to say? No. No. Dude, you're listening to music.

You can't listen to it wrong. Right. But was that intentional? Was it, like, do you feel like you're more relaxed? I think so. I mean, after 35 years of doing what we're doing, we're pretty confident in what we're getting better. Yeah.

You know, we're kind of carving our own sound out, you know. Still. Still. But I think like what you said about, you know, you open up, just bash them in the face. Yeah. And then hit them with some melody and then come back. And just when they think they're safe, boom, again. Yeah.

Dynamics have always been a big part for us. Since we did the S&M album with the symphony in the Bay Area, that was like the ultimate power trip where we felt, you know, well, the passion that we share here is the power of music and building and coming back down and dynamics. Yeah. So. That must have been exciting. Oh, super, super amazing.

Yeah. Did you do it, where was it recorded, Symphony Hall? It exciting. Oh, super, super amazing. Yeah. Did you do it at, uh, where did, where was it recorded? Symphony hall? It was, uh, we tried it in San Francisco. It was, we were, we were a little too loud for that place for some reason. Yeah. Uh, you know, basically a lot of these symphony halls are, are, are designed acoustically for acoustic instruments.

Nice wooden things. Yes. And strings and some horns. So we did it, we did it in berkeley and it uh came out quite awesome and uh a little side note interesting thing the uh the uh well the artist skrillex yeah it was somewhat popular he uh he was in the audience uh-huh at that gig uh-huh yeah and he's in the video he's got blonde hair back then. And he was the kid that's trying to stage dive, really stage dive at the symphony. So you're plinking around

on the piano with an old lady eating cookies. Yeah, that's right. And then, uh, and then like at what point do, uh, do you find, uh, uh, what, what were you listening to that started to make you want to play in a band? Well, guitar, you know, I realized pretty quickly that if I wanted to be in a band, you know, a upright piano is not going to call, you know, I can't push that around. I can't jump around. I can't do the stuff I want to be. I want to be the guys in the poster that I had in my room. Which guys? Which I had Aerosmith. I had, I want to be. I want to be the guys in the poster that I had in my room. Which guys? Which I had Aerosmith.

I had, you know. Yeah. There was a particular poster, Steven Tyler and Joe Perry together on one microphone. Sure. And I thought, wow, I don't know who I want to be. Yeah. They were both so cool. Yeah.

And so I kind of ended up being both in a way. Yeah, yeah. Singing and playing. Yeah. Well, 78 is when it really kicked in. Well, it was earlier than that. Me and my buddy growing up in the Downey area, we kind of both picked up the guitar at the same time.

Yeah. And we would push each other. Yeah. Hey, I show up at school. Hey, I learned this. And then he'd go, yeah, but I got this. Like, oh, damn. And then you go back and okay.

Like this total healthy competition of building each other up. What happened to that guy? We had a falling out. It was terrible. Over a lake? Pretty much. It wasn't a girl. It wasn't a car.

It wasn't anything. It was like, who's better? I think that's what it was. Fuck you, man. There was another guy that came in and, you know, it's always when you get a triangulated relationship, screws it all up. Oh, yeah.

He says, oh, he says he's better than you. And then you say better than him. And they started a fight. And then that was it. It was stupid. Yeah. So like Aerosmith, though, like that first fucking Aerosmith record, I listened to that recently.

It's so good, man. It's so dirty. It's pretty raw and dirty. Yeah, yeah. That's what I liked about them. And my buddy, who I was talking about, John, was his name. Yeah. He loved Kiss, and he liked Alice Cooper.

So it was all the makeup kind of thing. And I loved just the raw. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Vigent and Aerosmith. I never liked the makeup. Yeah. Not much. I went and saw, like, Rush.

Remember, they were huge when we were in high school, right? Yeah, yeah. Who'd you see in high school? Well, I think my first concert my brother took me to, it was the first concert ironically for me was Jethro Tull. Uriah Heep opening. Yeah. 1978.

A little prog rock for you. And then soon after that, I'm all about Aerosmith, so we got tickets. It was Aerosmith and ACDC. Holy shit. 78? Yep. Oh, my God. So I saw Bon Scott, and I didn't even really realize it until later.

With Journey. Yeah. Nice. And I was there to see journey yep this fucked up like in retrospect i'm like i fucking can't believe that i was that guy yeah but i didn't think and i think that i talked to the i talked to the bass player of journey and he said that they were opening for acdc but i didn't remember it like that i remember like watching bond and being like what the fuck is this and then journey comes on like i don't it really i've it i've admitted it publicly but i have a hard time

admitting it publicly well good for you it's okay man how great is fucking angus on guitar he's awesome and you know when people talk about uh us and longevity they're always saying you know so how long you're gonna go and you're to be in your wheelchair and blah, blah, blah? And, you know, be like the Rolling Stones. Like, well, okay. I kind of get that. I get the reference

to the Rolling Stones, but, you know, for us, we're a little more athletic, a little more, I mean, fast songs. Yeah. I mean, really intense.

Yeah. So I say, you know, hey, look at Angus, allus all right yeah if that guy's up there and is god i don't know how old he is now a few hundred years old but he is unbelievable i'm 53 you're a month older than me and so he's got to be 60 right got to be at least at least yeah and he's up there just going i mean he i don't know how he sweats so much there's nothing to him you know yeah uh have you played with them yes we did we did some shows with them and they're

unbelievable yeah they were friggin powerful and you think uh okay this this is my this is the best song this is my favorite song of theirs and then and then the next one comes like oh my god i forgot that and the whole crowd is singing every word and it's just what a great great live band now but like right around the time it seems that the drive of what you were doing with the with the early metallica stuff i mean that's like you know that was happening in punk rock music but but you seem like your tastes were pretty mainstream like with me so when did that stuff start to enter the the world yeah because Because we were up against disco, too. If you were a sophomore the same time I was,

there was that moment where we had all the old guys. We had Zeppelin and Aerosmith and ACDC's first couple of records. And then all of a sudden, disco had to be killed. That was the main objective. Right. Kill disco. It was kind of. Let's join up all the other kinds of music,

and let's kill the stuff right away. It's true. And then New Wave came in before punk, kind of, Let's join up all the other kinds of music and let's kill the stuff right away. It's true. And then like New Wave came in before punk kind of, you know, in like suburbia. Like all of a sudden the Naxx record. And then like, then all of a sudden the Sex Pistols or whatever. And then American punk. But like it was a real problem.

Right. Well, I totally agree. And I remember that specifically to the degree that in my, I my high school yearbook yeah there's you know put your quote in there it says you know disco sucks and long live rock i mean that said it all for me right then right uh and there was there was kind of a there was a divide even in the rock world you know when you know i liked punk yeah and i liked the new metal that i was discovering in high school you know scorpions judas priest sure things like that that were that were metal and then i liked you know i liked i liked i loved the ramones sure they were so i'd had my ramones glasses with my scorpion shirt and i'd walk through the school and be hated by everyone nice didn't fit in it didn't

fit in anywhere and the rock star was born maybe maybe but you know rebellion started early but i tell you the uh the cross the crossing of those two musics made a lot of sense to me so when i discovered motorhead finally that was kind of the ultimate like okay uh there's a precedent to see motorhead somewhere here in la and looking next to me there's a guy with you know a pink mohawk yeah and spikes yeah and i'm sitting here headbanging and we're getting along right like all right maybe we can kill disco together you could yeah so that was it huh motorhead was the bridge it really was it really was the you know between the two and i was trying to figure out you know where do i belong because you know i couldn't hang out with the rockers couldn't hang out with the punk rockers

either it's so weird to grow up when we grew up because like that weird air that time in music you know outside of like the scorpions and you remember when van halen one came out because we were like sophomores and that like eruption like out of every camaro at those jensen triaxles was just that fucking solo and you're like what is that the hood right it's unbelievable i still get blown away by that record yeah it's so alive sounding so fresh and so uh just it's it oozes of youth and and just rebellion yeah it's so alive sounding so fresh and so uh just it's it oozes of youth and and just rebellion yeah it sounds so great and it was fun that was the weird thing there was no darkness in it it was like you know like because david lee roth was almost like a clown and it was like it was fun it was like it was almost like pop music but they had this gnarly fucking guitar thing going yeah

yeah oh it was it was party yeah definitely party music i was it was like and we were up against foreigner i mean there was a lot of shit going on bob seger it was all like that whole fuck it all happened when we were in high school we're picking up like this crashing wave of the fucking 60s and 70s and then it's just like an eruption of prog rock garbage happened yeah sticks grand illusion yeah oh my god yeah there's a yeah okay there's a good guitar sound on that no no he's like he can play yeah they're on renegade that was all right oh the that's a good riff yeah no i'm not gonna i'm not gonna I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take anything

but what's his name Tommy Shaw and the fellas right no no I know we're all in the same world but it was it was a weird time

there was a lot of music to listen to and a lot of different genres and whatnot going on and yeah super tramp my buddy was Kiss I was Aerosmith

my other buddy was Foreigner he said I can't believe your favorite band is Foreigner oh yeah he was like the first time yeah yeah again yeah I was Aerosmith. My other buddy was Foreigner. He said, I can't believe your favorite band is Foreigner? Yeah. He was like the first time. Yeah.

Yeah. Again. Yeah. Whatever. It served its purpose. Where did Sabbath fall in? Oh, that was before any of that stuff. Yeah, for sure.

For you? Yeah, putting it on. Like I was telling you, my brother, he was older than I. He had his own. He had a tur turntable he had all kinds of records and when he would be at school or college or wherever he went yeah uh i was i was playing his albums just soaking it in he's so lucky the big brother thing is like you know that's the gift very cool to have the guide yes sabbath sabbath that first sabbath record i mean i just looked at the cover and freaked out yeah and then i started it you know and there's the rainstorm and oh my god what's happening it scared me and i loved every minute of it man so if it's gonna scare me it's definitely

gonna scare mom turn it up you're in your brother's room i picture just sort of like i'll just try it you're alone oh yeah what's happening oh shit erase erase ah i can't go back ah no going back i'm going back it's it's so weird because like i you know i came to a lot of that stuff so much later and i had to appreciate it as a grown-up but like i fucking love that stuff now sabbath or a four what a great record that yeah the volume four so cool so i mean there's so many great riffs and there's so many weird so much weird stuff on there and you're a riff guy oh man like you're you're the riff well i mean in a way though right i mean that you're that's the well and they're under that it says riff life does it really yeah oh yeah because that and sabbath really kind of

like that that's what that that's what that's about. No doubt about it. Yeah. The song was the riff. Right. If you didn't have a good riff, it wasn't a great song. Right. So was that. And Tony Iommi, the riff master of all time, forever.

And we all bow to him and try to be him. And you've worked with him. Yep. Was it great when you first met him? That must be the amazing thing to grow up when we did and then to be playing with your heroes it is crazy i've got plenty of pictures of me you know i got a picture of me standing next to steven tyler meeting him for the first time yeah and he's just like hi and i'm like you know friggin fanboy going nuts yeah and same with ted nugent and. And same with Tony Iommi.

He was just, but he was the epitome of cool. Yeah. He's writing the ugliest, darkest riff ever. Yeah. And he's, hello, how are you? Yeah, yeah. Very friendly, super nice guy. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. So you and I have something in common and it's fairly um uh public and self-professed anger issues no yes i do not yeah not anymore all gone but do you like because like i was starting to think about the music and getting heady about it about how you know when you're younger you know and the anger is actually active in the music you know it's relieving and then like for helpfully as you get older you at least get that thing wrangled and you can draw from it a little more consciously and and a little more like you know it doesn't

have to to drive you right i get what you're saying yeah and like i can kind of feel that that like you can still speak to it but it has more range in a way because it's not crippling you exactly that's a great word crippling yeah instead of crippling it's uh it's just the it's it's like the evil twin that's just with you all the time right but you know how to deal with it right Right. When did it start revealing itself to you? When you were younger, when did you first realize you were pissed off? Was there an event? I think it slowly built.

I think religion was kind of the start of it. A Christian scientist? I didn't really believe what they were teaching me. Yeah. And it didn't work for me. It didn't make any sense. Well, it's kind of a crazy, there's some parts of it that are crazy. Yeah.

Don't go to the doctor. What the fuck? Yeah, yeah. Don't go, even if you were deathly ill or like both my parents passed cancer in front of me. That was probably the most angry I've been. Like later in life? No. I was 16 when my mother passed away.

13, I would say, well, my parents met because of the church. Yeah. And my dad was the equivalent of a minister in the church. Right. So very active in it. And yeah, Sunday school was part of my regiment. And at that point in wherever we went, it wasn't really. So were your brothers part of it too?

I mean, like. They were already kind of, they were old enough to not. Oh. Yeah. And it was just the three of you guys? Yeah. I have a younger sister too. Uh-huh.

So we'd be in Sunday school and it was, it just, it wasn't fun. It wasn't like it was teaming with lots of youth and kids and having fun. And, you know, it was, it was like being at school again and, oh, you got to learn this and learn this. At least that was my perception. And later on, I kind of realized that that was, that was part of my dad's journey. You know, that was what helped keep him on the straight and narrow. But when he would talk to me, he would be in scripture.

I got a question about life. Okay, let's read about it. Oh, really? That kind of thing. And you're like, but wait, that doesn't help me. Should I fuck her? Is that a yes or a no? How do you put a rubber on what is a rubber you know

yeah any of that stuff there was i mean i wasn't asking my dad stuff like that but uh you know whenever you did something wrong that's what happened you went to scripture yeah it kind of sounds it seemed like a punishment you know right so there's no communication no not at all uh but but that was his way of communicating and i get it now yeah okay because me being in recovery and you know having a certain language sure you know when my kids stumble across something and i just tell them a little story about me or something right and the dad we're not in therapy yeah yeah okay sorry you're right yeah right i'm doing it again right stop that right i'll just listen right listen to you guys you know well that's definitely something you

learn in recovery that moment when you when you're hearing someone's story and you get moved by it like that moment where where where yeah i'm open about it and you just brought it up but i i break that tradition is that uh you know that you happened, you know, what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now, that structure. But that moment where they gets over, and I'm always like, oh, good. You know, like it always gets me. And it taught me how to be empathetic. Right. Yeah, that's something that I was lacking as well.

It was a, it was kind of I had to fight for what I could get, you know. Yeah. And because I wasn't happy in the family, you know, I couldn't express my anger health in a healthy way. Even, you know, I couldn't go against because that would be really, really bad. Then I get double the scripture or whatever it was. Right. And, uh, it was, it was, it felt really elite, like an eliteness, like we're better than

other people because we believe this oh they're they're they believe these lies and these lies and this and that and so it it was a little cultish at least in my mind i know there's plenty of people out there that that religion and religion in general works for them uh i understand the the the concept of a higher power and it does work for me sure but religion itself fucked me up right and uh especially that one when i was young and well if you see your parents your family members get ill and refuse to see a doctor just that element of it i mean that's like it's beyond reason yeah so the pain of that well a lot of things happened around that you know my my father left when i was 13 didn't say goodbye didn't do anything just took off and you know

that's not that doesn't sound christian to me you know really what's going on here you know uh no contact or uh about a year later oh my god you God. You're 13. Yeah. What the fuck? And then my mom took it really difficult. You know, she was, you know, she all of a sudden had to start working. You know, she wasn't getting any money in. And so she went back to the art that she had done before and helped the family along. What was she, what kind of art? She was a painter.

Oh, yeah. But then interior design. She did logos, things like that. Oh, yeah. Which kind of art? She was a painter. Oh, yeah. But then interior design. She did logos, things like that. Oh, yeah. Which kind of makes sense. Like graphic design kind of stuff? Yeah, graphic design. Yeah, yeah.

And then, yeah, she got sick with cancer. And we watched her pass away in front of us. No medicine? No. No. No, the religion talks about if you know, if you acknowledge that you're ill, that's part of letting in, you know, the thing that will make you ill. So not so much, I guess, you know, it sounds like denial to me, but not allowing that truth in, you know, keeping a positive approach to it and sure heal you know healing thyself and through higher power and all that and it it didn't seem to be working what are the what

are the uh what barometer do they use to judge that is working after a certain i would think that after a number of people pass away in a community eventually you'd be like maybe a little medicine it's not good yeah yeah yeah well you know at least what i believe now and yeah it's just what i believe yeah not gospel whatsoever is you know higher power gave us knowledge on how to you know help ourselves that's right yeah so that made sense to me but you know her passing made me really pissed right he really pissed. Right. Made me really pissed. At religion? Yeah, well, not just that, but at my father leaving and causing that to happen. I blamed that. And then what did I do wrong?

What could I have done? And I'm the man of the house at 13. And just a lot of things that I had to had to work through yeah you had to excavate all that grief and anger yeah sad the pain yeah yeah tons of it and i tell you music was the thing that that's always where i would go i could escape to that it made me feel better it made me uh it was speaking it was it was speaking the words that i didn't know how to say and it was uh uh it was just uh it was it was it was an escape i could put the headphones on and be in a better place sure and when did the when the booze start

yeah that started when i moved in with my brother uh After your mom passed? Yeah. And your dad, did you resume communication with him? I was not in that place. I was not. My sister was, and she was able to reconcile and go live with him. So through my half a junior and senior year, moved schools and lived with my brother, that's when the music really started kicking in yeah and that's when i would go watch other musicians locally and that's where you know first beers kind of showed up like here have a beer you know and uh and then along with

the the smell of the burning amps and all of that stuff yeah the smell of the beer was also great yeah and it just kind of fit in with everything you know yeah and then the first band when did how old were you well um i was yeah that was uh probably my junior year uh it was just before my mom passed yeah i got in a band it was called obsession and we've had a long list of cool cover songs that we were doing. Me and the Veloce Brothers and a guy named Jim. Yeah. We were in their garage in Downey.

Yeah. And we would just play all night and have fun. We'd do Thin Lizzy songs, Robin Trower. We had Black Sabbath, UFO. Yeah. Man, a huge list. Good list. We had about 40 songs that we could play.

We played maybe three parties max. Not a dance band per se. Not so much. It was hang around the keg and rock out. Yeah, man. So now when you started because it seems to me that like they're they're another question i had in listening to the record and listening to all this stuff is that there seems to be themes that that move through metal and and through your music and like the the sort of pushing back against uh you know dogma religion authority and that stuff has always been a

rebellious thing in rock and roll but the this comes from a specific experience yeah you know your distrust of uh of religion and and uh you know uh order right right and and that in that i think that you guys sort of established a lot of the themes like you know despair paranoia like yeah well all that fun stuff we all like to live in and i tell you what it is is if i can get it out of my head yeah it makes it better right right better out than in because if i can put it into a song and question it you you know, I have no answers. I got a lot of questions. And actually, I think when someone identifies

with your question, it's better than them telling you the answer, actually. Right. You know, I identify with that question. I don't know. Let's find out together or let's just ponder it together. You know, that's a higher power showing up, at least for me.

Yeah. So when the fans understand that question as well, it makes me feel okay. And that's all I really kind of want is to feel okay and feel validated and feel like I belong. Yeah. So that's what these lyrics do. Isn't that funny though? Like about how how because my dad

wasn't absent but he was certainly detached and volatile that's absent it is yeah i i i i don't know that i fully processed it right you know like that um the selfishness of it you know that that's sort of like you know one way you way, you know, either, you know, if they're gone, they're gone. But then there's the other kind that sort of erase you while you're there. Yeah, yeah. Totally. I mean, it's tearing you down. Right. It's not like, okay, they're not there.

I'm starting to heal. I'm starting to process because it's not still happening. Right. Right. Yeah. Because they're just always there and you're reacting to, like, reacting to an absence or is probably a little different than reacting to like i don't know what he's gonna do what the fuck's gonna happen totally and living in it you know and it's not uh you're not alone there because i think a lot of that generation gosh it was it was kind of not i don't want to

say passive aggressive but it was aggressive aggressive yeah why am i laughing i'm sorry for laughing oh no it's right yeah uh you didn't know what was gonna happen yeah that was the thing you know that that you know cliche wait till your father gets home it's like right oh shit nothing scared me more than that right because he was the dealer of punishment right you know all the stuff that i had done throughout the day mom checked it off and wrote it down and then handed it to him and you know what a fucking shitty job yeah to do you come home after working your ass off and you get handed a list of all the shit that happened and you gotta deal out some whatever lashes with the belt or whatever you know in my case so that sucked i'm sure it sucked for him yeah uh and it sucked for me yeah and probably for my mom

because she couldn't deal with us and you know it's tough it's tough and i like i never got it together to have kids either but i imagine like because my brother has three kids i imagine that you as a father you've got to sort of approach this with sort of like i don't have a template for this i got no they've got no good experience around this particular job so you got to re-navigate well i have to ask questions i got a lot of good buddies that oh really we're in the same boat yeah and it's okay to ask for help yeah it's like, man, my kid's doing this. Have you ever experienced that? And they're like, yeah.

So there's good stuff like that that I don't think my father did. I don't think he sat around with his buddies going, gosh, my son's having trouble with math and he's lashing out. So I think the template let you talked about i think i had a template of what not to do right but i didn't really have the template of what to do yeah it was at least a good start yeah i'm gonna break this cycle i don't want i don't want this happening but i don't want to go the exact opposite way which tends to happen as well. And how's it going? It's going better. How many do you got?

Kids? Yeah. I got three. Oh, yeah. Three beautiful children. Yeah. Beautiful wife. We've been first and only wife, been married for over 19 years.

And we've got an 18-year-old daughter who's in college now. I've got a 16-year boy yeah uh who's completely awesome and very expressive i have a a daughter a younger daughter who is 14 and you know she's a girl in high school first year high school and there's a lot of a lot of questions a lot of you know slow processing going on and she and she's right in the middle of it. But she is awesome. I mean, I have three healthy, beautiful, great kids. Well, congratulations.

Thank you. I imagine with that last one, it's a lot of like, well, maybe you ought to talk to your mom about that. You know, she gravitates to me. Oh, yeah? There's something, I tell you, between a father and a daughter, there's some magic. Yeah. Not that it isn't with my daughter, there's some magic. Yeah. Not that it isn't with my son, but he'll go to mom.

Oh, really? That's just kind of how it is. I think that's supposed to be. Yeah. Yes. That's great. But yeah, growing up, watching them learn and discover and love music their own way. Yeah.

Are they introducing you to stuff? Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Whether I like it or not. Right. Right. Good stuff, bad stuff? Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Whether I like it or not. Right. Right. Good stuff, bad stuff, and just out there stuff.

And I love watching them enjoy music. That's the coolest thing. Yeah. Where they just, they get so into it. It's like, oh, man, that's what it's about. Yeah. I don't care what it sounds like, but look what it's doing to you. Yeah.

That is cool. And when you play now, I mean, like you said are you when you guys going on tour we kind of are already yeah it's i don't know it's this like it's slowly happening but i think next year is when we really start touring and do you have to like get into shape yeah i have to yeah no but i mean like like i imagine it's quite a process for what you guys do mental physical spiritual all that yeah mind body yeah gotta get into shape and because when you're out there there's a lot of things coming at you and um you know at least for myself um you know surround myself with people that get what i need yeah Yeah. You know, they're not yes men by any means.

They call me out on shit, which I need. You bring sober guys with you? Yeah. Yeah. I need that. Yeah. And I need someone on the tour where at 3 a.m. you can take a knock at the door and let me in.

Yeah. Yeah. And like not so much talk me off the ledge, but what's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's going on?

Yeah, yeah. I feel like doing this because I'm fucking bored or whatever it is. Sure. Oh, no, absolutely, dude. So age-appropriate touring for us looks like two weeks at a time. Oh, yeah.

Two weeks out, two weeks at home. Yeah. You know, trying to balance both loves in our lives. And, you know, gosh. How long have you been married? Yeah, 19 years. So she went through all the shit with you? Yep.

She walked through fire right next to me. That's amazing. Yeah. I threw her in the fire a few times, too. How are you not going to do that? Yeah. Because that's what the brain does. And I notice it even now.

It's sort of like, I feel like shit. So now I'm just going to rope-a-dope her emotionally. Yeah. As she tries to help. And then you're just sort of like, nope, nope. And then right when they break, you're like, yeah, now look where we are. Yay. Yeah.

Look what I did to you too. Yeah. You know? Oh, man. Yeah. Someone trying to help you and you making them think they're crazy. Yeah. You know, nope, I never said that or I wasn't doing that or no,

don't know who she is. Yeah. No, I don't know whose bottle that is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they just take it until they can't.

And there, I imagine you had that moment where you're like, this is all going to go. And that's the best thing that ever happened to me. I tell you when the, when the, you know, the two me's collided, you know, the road me and the home me collided, man, it was, it was amazing. Yeah. and the home me collided, man, it was amazing. Yeah. The most horrible feeling and, you know,

now the best thing that ever happened. Oh, good for you, man. Good for you. That's great. Well, hats off to her because she put up with the shit and she's been a good mentor for me in life too. She's very balanced, very even keeled, and it drives me nuts yeah uh and you know the opposites do attract and at some point we we just had to realize that you know we're we got to

respect each other because we can help each other sure i can help you loosen up and be a little stupid and you can help me get my shit together and be responsible. And obviously you had the love there that was deep enough to survive it. Yeah. That's the fucking beautiful thing. For sure. And then both our backgrounds, you know, not dissimilar, but different. Oh, she comes from the shit? Different.

Yeah. You know, kind of invisible kid. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Invisible kid and not really cared for. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Invisible kid and not really cared for. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, yeah.

So, it matched up. And once you get healthy, you get healthy together. It works out. Yep. It's that weird challenge of, like, you know, kind of, like, having to impress this father that stinks in your head. Like, it's fucking ridiculous. But, like. Every man has that.

It's so weird. I used to do a joke about it. It was never got to laugh. I used to say I think that every father-son relationship on some level is a battle to the death. Yeah. And until you both die, it's going to go on. Yeah, that's right. You get to a certain age where you're like, you better go first.

Yeah. It's so dark. It's crazy. I tell you, I still battle with them. You know, it's dumb. Voices appear in my head and it's like, wait, who's that?

Really? Who's talking to me? You got to separate them out. Oh, yeah. Does that come into the songwriting at all? Oh, hell yeah. Oh.

I mean, it's, again, part of the therapy of music for me. And have you made all your amends from the past? Again and again and again and again oh yeah well yeah uh i i think i'm i'm pretty clean yeah i think i'm pretty clean right now but you know

there's always something i talked to you know who i had in here i had scott ian in here awesome he's a sweet guy oh he's awesome you know and i had another i had to load up on that metal you know he's quite a character yeah and a sweet guy oh man earnest dude you know he's very down to earth yeah he's uh he loves his music he knows a lot about it and he's he's got a great memory and a lot of cool stories he and also he he spoke so highly of that that i guess you guys did some things together the big four and And like he was like, it was almost like moved me to tears when he was talking about the, you know, it was, what was it? You, Anthrax, Megadeth, and Slayer.

Yep. And you're all backstage together. And he had this moment where like, it was like, it teared me up a little bit that you guys were like, you could all be in your own success and be together and it'd be all right. You know what I mean? And the fact that, you know, it blew my mind.

It really started with the kind of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction idea. Yeah. You know, getting nostalgic. Yeah. You know, and thinking, my God, look at all the people that have helped us along the way and look who are still around. Yeah. Let's say thank you to them.

And so the big four was kind of that thing. Yeah. We're all still playing after 30, whatever it was, 32 years. Let's go get, do a gig together. I mean,

why shouldn't we, let's celebrate the fact that we're still alive and playing music that we love. Yeah. And, um, you know, uh, I think the, all the other thing was the new wave of British heavy metal. That's all I ever hear about. Yeah.

No album, blah, blah, blah. What about the big four? Yeah. No one knows the big four. Come on, let's make it known. Yeah. Let's make some history here and let people know and put a mark there that the big four was and, you know, is a force to be reckoned

with and he delivered the goods yeah we loved it we had a blast and mustaine and you guys are good yeah there's no reason to not be good yeah at this point you know yeah uh uh you know we've all we've all freaking fell off the wagon we've all gone into the ditch. We've all got back on track. We've all learned from our stuff. And at the end of the day, it's just journeys. Everyone's doing a different journey. And why would you hold a grudge with someone or vice versa? And you've all been through tragedies.

You got real rock and roll tragedies. You lost a cliff and all that stuff and your own accidents and shit. I mean, you guys really lived the life. And I imagine when you survive it at a certain point, whatever that personal bullshit is, it's got to fall away. I've seen some kind of light around that. Because I think the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame was a part of that realization that, you know, when we were up there and seeing, you know, Ozzy is sitting at one table and the rest of Black Sabbath at the other table and they don't want to jam together and they're being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

So we go up and we play a song. We play Black Sabbath songs for them. Yeah. And that was beautiful for us. Yeah. But it was sad to see that. I'd rather see you guys play for them. Yeah. And that was beautiful for us. Yeah. But it was sad to see that. I'd rather see you guys play. Yeah.

Yeah. Whatever it is. Oh, yeah. They can't get past it. Put it away, please. I get it. I get it's hard to get past stuff, but there's stuff in my life I thought I could never get over.

Like what? Oh, just fights with Lars about shit. And, you know, we're brothers. Yeah. You know? Right. And I'm thinking, you know, we're brothers, you know, right. And I'm thinking, you know, this is it. No frigging way. I'm doing, you know, I can't get past this.

I can never look at him again. And then a month later, you're writing hardwired together, you know, and you're making the best record of your life. It's like, dude, it works. All right. Just see past that shit. Go big picture whatever it is you need to do you can get past the most unbelievable places uh that you you know you think you can never get out of well so it's a choice right right right that's the weird thing

that you realize and my wife will tell me that it's a choice she'll say hey you know i'll you know it's over yeah forget it i can't work together and she'll go yeah yeah okay you know yeah you say that now yeah no no no this is it i feel it this is i can't i can't get over this and and it's unbelievable what you can get over so seeing that or like the van halens up there or the you know blondie had a moment where it was like oh my god or you know you look at like roger waters and uh i just talked to him oh come on you guys you know what's such beautiful music and you know you feel it too dude when you're sitting there with them and just like you now when you have that moment where you're like nope no like on some level because because we're men, all we want to do is just cry.

It's a sadness. It's almost childish. Very, yeah. And if we just fucking bawled a minute quietly, it'd be all right. Yeah. It's like holding on to this. It's a sad, childish thing childish thing man you are you're stuck in that moment of that and you're reliving it that's resentment and you can't you just can't

but if you know what works for me yeah with lars we just sit down and just start talking about our kids that's where we'll start and that's a that's a completely loving place to start. Right. We'll talk about that. And then all of a sudden, it's like, fuck, dude. I'm sorry. I did this. Yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden, you're back. Right there.

Like that. Like a guy. Yeah, yeah. Ego deflated. That's right. Done. Out of the way. Fear.

Done. Out of the way. And now you can move on. Well, what are, because I always wonder that about bands, because I know that the relationship has to get strained, but even when I saw Deep Purple inducted, and Richie's not, you know. Right.

It's like, what? Why? What could be the fucking, at this age? Right. You know? But, like, I guess these are, it's emotional. It's not creative. Right.

Right? Man, it is such a wall emotional. It's not creative. Right. Right. Man, it is such a wall. It's such a block. It's such a uncreative thing, you know, to be stuck in that prison of resentment, you know? And it, yeah. Okay. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. It's not like you're being led into heaven or something.

Right. It's just an acknowledgement of your stuff that you've done together, but the fact that you can't be there for that at the same time is sad. It is sad, right? Yeah. Let's get back to music for a minute, because I wanted to talk about the role of the producer. I talked to Keith Richards about, what was his name, Jimmy Miller.

There's a shift. The Black Album was a shift for you, right? Mm-hmm. With the producer. Definitely. And who was producing before? Was it you guys? I mean, what was the big change that you had to open yourself up to when you make a decision to change your sound in a way?

Yeah, I think it was us, us driving the boat there. Fleming Rasmussen, who worked on the first albums, except Kill Em All, he was the engineer that could get sounds. He was, you know, a semi-producer. Right.

You know, he'd say, eh, not so good. Right. And we were, okay, well, fuck you. Yeah, yeah. It's good. We were driving that ship

until, you know, Injustice For All, we realized that, you know, we need some help. Yeah. The album doesn't sound great. Songs are good, but, you know, justice for all we realized that you know we need some help yeah the album doesn't sound great songs are good but you know we're mixing this record as we're on the monsters of rock tour our ears are blown out right

we can't decide what sounds good and doesn't anymore yeah so after that we decided we need we need some help yeah I need a producer and that's when Bob rock came into the picture and he was like a kind of a guy who dealt with it, the type of music you guys respected. Yeah, you know, we liked his sounds. That was the main thing. You know, you actually have like, there's a physical, even if you're in your car, like the Metallica music,

it's like, it's hitting you. That's the best place, in a car. Yeah, the best. That's the best place to listen yeah the best that's the best place to listen to music in general yeah because you're like you're a hero yeah you're like you know it's like oh you're in it yeah you're living in you know it's in a space yeah but there's not you know it doesn't have to be anyone else in it that's right the best time you're on stage right in there no matter what you're playing but did he like like how did he work like what was it that

i was able to explain to him what I was after. Yeah. And he was able to get that, put it into whatever knob language. Right. Yeah, yeah. But for me, I knew what sound I wanted. Yeah. And I've always been chasing it.

And I still am. You know, the next record's going to sound better. I'll tell you. The one after the one you just put out? Exactly. That one's going to have a better guitar sound yeah it is because you know as a riff guy it's like i'm chasing the unreachable sound probably yeah uh uh but all those records coming up to then i was trying to get what i wanted and he

helped me get it a little more right so the layering i mean the harmonies and vocally for sure that's when i think bob rock uh really really helped me uh is in the vocal department you know he no one ever before would would say you know that doesn't sound very good or how about trying this yeah that doesn't that word doesn't sing right right uh yeah how about this harmony try this and so i you know i remember the when he said okay at the end of this part while there's a guitar solo going on just throw a couple ad libs out there it's like what what's it what's that you mean like you know talking come on baby or something you know what what am i supposed to say yeah you know, talking, come on baby or something, you know, what, what am I supposed to say?

Yeah. You know? Yeah. And that was, that was when I realized, man, you're, you're kind of close minded here.

You need to kind of open up a little bit and, you know, like I think the end of Sandman was the thing, you know, you know, often never, never land doing, you know,

just some things that kind of tail off and, you know, just be loose. Like you're, you know, playing live. Yeah. you know playing live yeah yeah you know okay now i get it yeah i mean i think everyone that we've worked with has tried to get us to sound like we do live you know yeah well that's it that's the big business the live yeah well trying to i don't know if it's actually mistakes and all, but that feeling of it's on. You're gelling. Everything is electric. Right.

And trying to recreate that in the studio is not super easy, especially when you're working in there for over a year. Right. Exactly. And a lot of times you're not there at the same time, I imagine, or you you're doing tracks on overdubbing and whatever, like you're not in the room together. And I know people record like that, but it's must be sort of a chore. Yeah, well, we do do that. You know, we write in and record the basic tracks all together. And on this record, especially, you know, having Greg there at the beginning, we were able to get great sounds.

Greg. Greg Fiddleman. Yeah. The producer, along with Lars and myself. He was able to get great sounds at the beginning. Yeah. Because we did it at HQ, which is our home sanctuary. And it's your label, right?

Right. Yeah. In America it is. So everything we played was album quality. Right. So there are guitar tracks on there that were first second third take possibly some are overdubs some are not you know so um it was just a newer and different way that's probably the most different uh on this album from compared to the other in terms of working yeah

yeah now when you look out at the crowd now like like, who do you see? You see guys our age? Young guys? I do. I see guys our age. I see guys older. I see, you know, what blows my mind is I see young girls in the front. Yeah. You know? And they're in the front.

I remember, you know, when I'd go to any gig, there's no way girls weren't even, they weren't even near the front. Right. Because it was too brutal. Right. But I tell you, whether it's how they do the barricades now or what now we have our own special way but uh it's less brutal so you get all kinds up there i mean i see father sons up in the front and daughters right it's it's anybody and everybody everybody is certainly welcome and no one there's there's not like a you know it used to be here's your

dress code show up and that's that right now loosened up a little a little bit you know uh you got you know guys just come off of work and they're whatever still got their handcuffs on their uh on their briefcase you know and they're at the gig and you've got guys that, you know, just whatever, just walked in from the, you know, the auto shop and you've got kids and grandpas and three generations of people showing up. That's how long you've been at it. That's great. That's beautiful.

It is. It is super beautiful. And what I get to do from up there is look out and watch these people enjoy the music and see how they react. How do they, how are they taking this in? And why the hell do you like this song? Really? We're playing Master of Puppets and you're a little girl out there going, Master!

What is it? What is it for you? And it doesn't matter. She's there and she's enjoying it. But you do ask those questions? I do all the time. Are you sure you like this? Someone's just fucking with us.

I know it. I'm going to wake up and this is all going to be a huge punk. That's interesting, man. James, you do have been punked. But that's the thing about the lyrics and the way you write and when you talk about questions and about how much of this stuff is almost a a call and response to you know these that you know those feelings that you know that they may be more present when you're younger but they don't go away and certainly if you grew up with them with you guys and now you have kids and stuff you know those feelings you revisit them in a in in almost a fun way right like you know i

remember when i wanted to kill everybody yeah when i was your age i wanted to just kill yeah now like now it's just fun now i only want to kill half the When I was your age, I wanted to just kill. Now it's just fun. Now I only want to kill half the people. That's progress, dude. That's awesome. I would love to see a father and son at your show. That must be really kind of touching. Oh, it's super cool.

It's super cool. Of course, the kid gets showered with gifts of picks and drumsticks and sweat bands and here you go you know yeah yeah and i here's kirk's guitar i'll give it to him yeah what was the uh you did that album with lou right yeah yeah like how did like you know that was an interesting thing you know it was very interesting no doubt because you know like he you know he's definitely like it was it makes sense you know for him and and i just wonder how did that come to to happen it made sense for us too yeah at the beginning it was i mean just jamming with anybody recording with

someone else that was that was weird and it's lou reed What do you mean? You know, and, you know, our management is in New York. Yeah. We went, I don't know what, I can't remember what we were doing. I think it was a, oh, I know. It was celebrating 25 years of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. We were host of one night and we were picking out artists that had been in the Rock or in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and played. And Lou Reed was there, and from down the hallway, he yelled,

Hey, Metallica, I love you guys. We should do an album together one day. And we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. All right, Lou. Yeah. All right, Lou. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, have another one. Yeah. And then we get a call from management saying, hey, Lou's serious. He wants All right, Lou. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have another one. Yeah. And then we get a call from management, you know, saying, hey, Lou's serious. He wants to do an album. And we didn't know what to think about it. It's like, all right, what's he got in mind? You know, they thought that could be a really cool idea. You did Sweet Jane live, right?

Was that what you played live with him? Like on that show, what was it, the award show that you're talking about? Didn't you jam with him somewhere? Yeah. Or am I making that up? Exactly. No, that is true. That's true.

Was it TweetChain? Yeah. That's what it was. Yeah. And so that's where it came from. Right. And he was, he came to us basically with lyrics from a play that he had written. He had all these intense lyrics.

Yeah. So this was a first for us to sit and write music behind a set of lyrics. Right. Because that's not how we operate. Yeah. But it was really cool. And it was definitely an in-the-studio jam kind of feel. And Lou was from that school. Right.

That ilk of back in the 60s or 70s. You jammed it, you recorded it, and then you're done. Right. That ilk of, you know, back in the 60s or 70s. You jammed it, you recorded it, and then you're done. Right. Yeah, yeah. Hey, let's try that again. Nope. They're like, I just did it. Like, okay, okay, I get it.

Right, right. Lou has spoken. We're done. It's an interesting album. It's a good record. I think it's super interesting. Yeah. And as a standalone piece in our career, I think I'm super grateful that we got to do it.

Lou and his, that time of life, you know, we learned a lot from him. He was a pretty, pretty cool guy. And let me tell you, if you, you know, rock and roll rebelliousness, it was in him. There's no doubt about it. Like in the sense of like what'd you take away from it uh because i'm a huge doug reef and well yeah the hey i sang it yeah that's

a moment yeah i can't do that again he would say that yeah i can't do that again yeah and that's it yeah okay you're like what is that okay is that okay to do that he just left you know wow okay so being in the moment very much in the moment um let's see what else oh when you're doing interviews yeah yeah yeah when when the interviewee starts asking questions look out yeah and especially if it's lou reed because man he tore some people apart oh yeah he he you know he definitely had some trust issues he didn't trust a lot of people so he would grill you until you crumbled and then he could trust you right this is like that dynamic we were talking about earlier where you know like get down to my level exactly i want to see a little

weaker yeah yeah a little cocky right now very true very true but he he was a real honest guy yeah a real honest guy uh and i really appreciate the fact that he got us out of our little box oh yeah metal you know yeah were you did you did you take his music into consideration ever earlier were you a fan no i wasn't i know cliff burton was certainly a fan velvet underground oh yeah cliff liked a lot of a lot of crazy psycho stuff yeah he seemed like a pretty special guy oh absolutely yeah um well look man i hope i did all right you did awesome and i didn't ask you any questions did i well you know it's funny because like some guys like yeah i don't i just like to have a conversation you know but like i had neil young in here and uh you know i was just wrestling with

like you know what am i gonna start with you know i like neil young but you know when you have a musician over you know especially at a certain age you know you know those five records right but then there's 50 yeah and then you're like, well, what can I fucking do? So like, you know. I love that because I totally get you. Yeah. But like, I figure like,

I got this little 58 Fender Deluxe amp here and I know he plays through things like that. So I'm like, I'm going to start with gear and we'll just open it up and we'll see where it goes.

And he gets in there and I basically go like, yeah, it's a 58 Deluxe. I think you, you play one of those and he looks over and he goes like, don't know i guess and i'm like i guess i knew he knew he was he was doing that thing though he was like i'm gonna i'm gonna break him a little bit and then like something happened and it was like i don't know if it was an interview or what but

he was having a great time and a lot of times with these things, people who are fans of people, they already know everything. So if they can just hear the guy as the guy, they're like, Neil does Pilates? You know what I'm saying? You know, that's the thing. Really? He does.

He brought that up. Wow. How long you got sober? 15. Wow. Days? No, years. Years. Yeah. It long you got sober? 15. Wow. Days? No, years. Oh, geez.

Yeah. It feels good, right? Don't even joke about that. No, you can't, right? 15 years. Oh, it feels great. Good, man. It feels really good.

And it's a daily thing. The daily reprieve. Absolutely. One day at a time. I'm loving it. Yeah, good, man. And again, I love the new record, and I liked listening to the old records. It was great talking to you.

Thank you, Mark. Appreciate it. See that. I think we covered some stuff, found some commonality, worked it out. Again, the new Metallica record,

hardwired, self-destruct available now. I'd like to thank James for coming by. It was fun. Uh, go to WTF pod.com. Probably WTFpod needs sorry no guitar playing I'm waiting for my

flap to take on the tip of my finger Boomer lives We'll be right back. So, no, you can't get a nice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now.

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