WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 780 - Jonathan Daniel / Nick Thune

Episode Date: January 25, 2017

How did an '80s glam metal bassist become one of the most prominent music managers in the industry, representing Sia, Weezer, Train, Courtney Love, Fall Out Boy, Lorde, and many others? Marc hears one of the most unlikely stories of show business success from his friend of more than 20 years, Jonathan Daniel. Plus, comedian Nick Thune stops by to talk about making jokes with Jesus. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck, Knicks? What the hell? What the fuck? What?

What did I just do? What's happening? This is Mark Maron. This is my podcast. This is WTF. Thank you for joining us, for joining us all here this morning. I am sitting right now. I'm in transit or I'm about to be in transit.

Just wanted to get this done before I took off because you never know with air travel. But I'm sitting in a hotel room looking over the city of Tallahassee, Florida. I'm looking out. I don't know into what state. I don't know if it's Alabama or Georgia or deeper into Florida. The air and the sky is crystal clear. Very lush, very green. Tallahassee is not a large city, so just beyond the city, it looks like nothing but woods.

And that makes me nervous, but I'm here. Oh, squeaky chair. All right, sitting it. Sorry, folks, just bear with me. Let me just get that out of the chair system we have two guests on the show today well i mean there's the you know the traditional when i do it this way there's the the short interview or the shorter interview and then the long interview today uh nick thune will be uh here with us again i haven't spoken to nick in a

while he's got a special coming on soon. It's a new stand-up special, Good Guy. It's available on CISO and Amazon. You can also check out my full interview with Nick on episode 189 of WTF, and that's available on Howl. Go to howl.fm and sign up for a premium account. Nick's a good guy. We always get pretty deep pretty quick in a specific way that I don't usually get with other guests. So it was good to talk to him again. But

the other guest, the longer interview today is my old buddy, Jonathan Daniel. John Daniel and I go back, way back actually to New York, mid-90s when he had hit the wall after being in a hair band in LA and was in some sort of a horrible accounting job in the music business. And, and, and he went on to create a very big, um, music management,

uh, company crush management where he handles, uh, you know, people like Weezer panic at the disco fallout boy, Courtney love, uh, see,

uh, but, uh, when I knew a man, I know't know what was going to happen, and it wasn't looking good. So it's great, and we haven't talked like this probably ever. And it was great to see him and great to talk to an old friend, but also great to hear the whole story because, you know,

even when you know people for decades almost, you don't always know the whole story. So, yeah, I'm going to talk to john daniel uh and nick thune today and i'll tell you man if you spend you know a minute and a half on any social media platform you just assume that you go out into the world and everybody's yelling at each other or everybody's full of hate or's like, there's no possible way for us to communicate with each other as people. Just nothing but suspicion and contempt out there. And so it works my brain. I don't have the greatest personal boundaries or the ability to insulate myself emotionally that well when I take shit into my eyes.

When I eat shit with my eyes, it affects my brain and fucks my heart up sometimes so a little paranoid but i get down here and i'm trying to you know i i like to engage with the city i check into the hotel late at night and uh check in with the news of the day which did not help me sleep and i get up and you know and just uh go find some coffee found some coffee that the city does not did not seem very uh booming but i might be in the downtown area i don't know this is the capital of florida and then i you know i'm trying to find some healthy stuff to eat because uh you know it's weird you know when you're thinking about a possible impending apocalypse and carbohydrates it's it's a tough place to be

you know one of them has to give and I thought it would be the carbohydrates I thought it would be the the shitty food but I somehow managed to find the fortitude to go out and find some decent veggie food in Tallahassee so uh you know I, I took care of that. So I honored my fear of dying from a clogged heart. The pending apocalypse fear persists. But God damn it, I'm going to go out and eat myself some reasonable protein and some, you know, not so fatty. So I got to go find some tofu in Tallahassee. There's that chair. Sorry.

So I find a place online called Soul Veg, Vegetarian Soul Food. And it looks like it's about a mile away, so I'll walk it. and it looks like it's about a mile away, so I'll walk it. And I walk, and I'm looking around, and there's not a lot of people on the street, but I don't think there's a lot of people on the street in general. It's a huge college here. FSU is here, and the gig that I performed last night is actually at the college, part of their opening night series.

Segura was on. Tom Segura was the night before me. Nice little 1,200-seater place, from what I'm told. And, well, so I take a walk. I go out and walk, and I come to this little strip mall. It's always weird to walk in places that are, you know, you can tell are fundamentally driving cities. Well, most cities are, I guess. But you do feel a little isolated, and when you see someone walking towards you from a half a mile away, you have a lot of time to think about how that's going to go. But I walk, say hi to some people, friendly face, not from around here.

How are you? And I walk to this vegetarian place, Soul Veg. And it's this great little place. And I got curry tofu, brown rice, collard greens, yams, cornbread. It was awesome. Excellent food. And it was quiet. And it was, you know, it was a little, I don't know who owns it,

but there were some interesting pictures on the wall from, they seem to be from Africa, actually, I believe. And I'm just eating and having a juice. And I'm still not, you know, quite comfortable. And I'm not really sure what the temperature of the area I'm in or how things are going to go because I'm living in a bit of fear in my mind. And then over at the next table from me, you know, I see some older people, a little older than me, maybe in their 60s. One dude had a long gray ponytail. And, you know, down south, that could go either way in terms of disposition. And I saw another older couple there.

And there was a woman who was wearing a certain type of sandal that led me to believe that, well, maybe, you know, maybe they're like-minded or at least they can give me the pulse if they're locals. And, you know, I just want to know what the, you know, politics of the area were so I know what I'm walking into and, you know, what's the general sense of the population. I could have done this online, but why not do it hands-on? Why not just engage? So I eat and then I just walk up and i say so you guys seem like you're you're talking a little little news little politics you're you're you seem to be from around here

what's the story here in tallahassee and we sit there and we talk about uh you know what what tallahassee is and what the surrounding areas are and they tell some stories about where they're from a couple of them are from uh from georgia and the one of the guy the uh guy with the ponytail is a local photographer who does some amazing portrait work and uh it was just interesting it was just interesting that to to kind of get out of the world of uh you know online you know insanity and out into the world of real life and just casually impose yourself on people to have a conversation about what's going on. And then I started, you know, when I was sitting there in this little, you know, soul food, vegetarian restaurant in a strip mall in Tallahassee, I pulled my chair up next to some

people I didn't know and just talked a little bit about the world about the news about politics and it was uh it was nice and then i started to think like wow is this how we're gonna be talking every all of us of a certain ilk is this where we're gonna be just to kind of quietly uh huddled in a corner talking in a small restaurant in a in a in places, you know, looking at each other, going like, is it okay? Yeah, are you okay? Can we talk here? Yeah, we can talk here.

Just turn the sign on the window to close and let's have a conversation. Is this what discourse is going to be? Is that how it's going to go? That was the dark vision. But then, like, I get to the show and got this local kid opening for me, Austin Mann. He did a good job. We packed the place out, 1,200 people, did an hour and a half, talked about everything that

I'm feeling and everything that's funny and some things that aren't funny that I made funny. funny that I made funny and it was a great show and I think it was appreciated I appreciated it and uh huh onward we go so I'm leaving Tallahassee today and uh going back to LA for a little while might take a little vacation if possible I gotta check out for a while all right so Nick Thune you know we go back a bit not that far he's younger than me but the first conversation that we had got very into his faith and uh it was a unique conversation for me and it was respectful and good and it turned out that this little conversation we had it went there it kind of got there pretty quickly because we were checking in i haven't i haven't talked to him in a long time but uh but he's a guy, and it was great to talk to him.

And again, his stand-up special, Good Guy, is now available on CISO and Amazon. And this is me and Nick Thune. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis

company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map

as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look out at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Unh. So much has happened. You've got a beard. You've got a kid. Yeah, new man. Yeah? How old is that kid? Three. How's that going? I just picked him up at school. Really?

Yeah, he had a big... When I picked him up, they go, hey, we do need to tell you. I'm like, oh, God. And then I realized he's got a huge gash on his forehead. They're like, he was riding the car over there, and he flipped. He rolled a car? He rolled the car, and they iced it. They checked it for a concussion. Everything seems fine. Yeah? Is he a bruiser, that car? He rolled the car and they iced it. They checked it for a concussion. Everything seems fine.

Yeah. Is he a bruiser, that kid? Is he? Not really. No? No, but he. Didn't I meet him briefly? You've met him twice, I think.

Actually, you flew behind us on a flight from Austin. Uh-huh. And you said, this is like a quote that I'll put on his website someday. You said, he's actually a good kid. Because he didn't cry. And I remember being pretty nervous that you were going to be pretty frustrated if he started to cry. It's weird, dude.

Like, not having kids, like, I'm not a cranky guy about that shit. And it doesn't affect me. I mean, I've had crying babies. Like, I imagine if you live with a crying baby, it probably can really be grating. But, like, I don't, I's probably can really be grading. But like, I don't, I'm not one of those people.

It's like, ah, fucking kid. First class. I just, I, I, you know what I don't like people who fucking snore loud.

Yeah. I can take a baby crying for an hour or two more than I can take some asshole just snoring. And that's even more vulnerable. Or armrest. Armrest or people that's immediately want to talk. And you can tell that you've got to cut them off because it's yeah you know i don't talk to people i don't know if i put off the vibe but i generally i really haven't in years i have not done the sort of like we're in the air we're

talking thing but you've had a unique experience before i would assume on a flight with a person sitting next you know when it happens and it's just a weird thing and i've noticed it over and over again i could not say a fucking word other than excuse me uh to get out if i'm unfortunate enough not to have the aisle seat uh for the entire flight and then right as we descend literally minutes before we land they're like so what do you do you know like the conversation starts it does there a lot isn't that weird sometimes it's right away and sometimes it's right there in the end right it's so bizarre yeah and you're like oh i was really looking forward to just like checking texts right when we land and not having to talk to you getting right out i had this moment though where i was flying from like upstate new york

to boston on a really small flight propellers yeah yeah this woman um right as the plane starts to speed up i feel her hand it she puts her hand on my hand. It's an elderly woman. Yeah. And I look over and I just think, okay. You know, and I hold her hand. And then we get to the top and she said, thank you for that. It's the first time I've flied since my husband died. Oh, my God.

And I have to cry. I think I did cry. I think I did. But it was like, you know, that was worth it. Oh, my God. That had a punch to it. I'm all choked up. I kind of wish I could have that on every flight.

What? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, flying is a very vulnerable place for some people. People get drunk on flights. Oh, no. Yeah, I know. I've heard stories. I've been fortunate lately, knock on wood, that, yeah, travel's been pretty easy.

There haven't been any incidents. i haven't found myself furious uh it's been okay lately i've been paying more for comfort oh definitely interaction that's the one thing like i don't buy much and uh you know i earn a living and i don't have to worry about dependence at this point so like i'll fly first i don't give a fuck i feel like everybody gives you most things except probably your shirt and yeah maybe maybe somebody gave you that too not this shirt your fans love you this pants no what i do is i take everything from wardrobe like i did four seasons of my show if i hadn't done four seasons of my show i would have had five shirts and two pairs of pants i've never been able to do it until these, I just did these Dell commercials and they let me keep all of it. Dell computer?

Yeah. Yeah. They gave me a Dell too. Really? People still use Dells? Yeah. No kidding. I guess.

You'd be surprised not everyone's an artist who lives in. In Apple land? Yeah. Yeah. No, but like there's definitely, I guess it's what you, I've always assumed that there are some businesses that require PCs. I don't know why. Most.

Yeah. Oh, that's the deal. I mean, I was just thinking this the other day. Somebody next to me had a Dell on a flight. And then I realized, that's all I really see, unless I'm in like JetBlue First Class, the LA to New York flight. Oh, come on. Now, you know, you're drawing lines. You're telling me you don't see Macs or iPads.

Not a lot on planes. I feel like I see like Samsung devices, you know, like people have- Like PCs. Like fiber. Right. Yeah. I think, I kind of think you're right. When I see people actually working on a plane, it's usually on a PC. Yeah.

So you did some commercials. Yeah. A bunch? Yeah. I mean, I think now it's been two years I've been some commercials. Yeah. A bunch? Yeah. I think now it's been two years I've been doing them. You're the guy? I mean, I'm their, I guess I'm what they call a celebrity spokesperson. You're the Dell guy? I think the word celebrity is pretty...

But do you say your name or are you just like the guy that's in all the commercials? They said my name in the last ones. They did? They added it to the script and I was talking to my friend. I was like, do you think I should say, like, I don't want my name in it well it's not why not it's not like nick thune for nuclear energy like hey here's a reasonably priced computer uh yeah you're gonna get knocked down a few hips so yeah well they're probably uh using your beard yeah they're like yeah we gotta let's let's make these uh pcs hip yeah it's the first job that I've had where I didn't walk in and they were like, do you

mind shaving? Or they were like, hey, do you mind not shaving? We want to use that for our brand. So how long, when did you shoot this new special? What's it called? It's called Good Guy. Good Guy. Actually, well, here's why I text you.

Because I, this is the second time that you've met my son was at the cafe around the corner. Cafe de Leche. He's a little man then. Yeah. Well, this is what I thought was so funny is you're in there and I was just stressing about the special because CISO had given me an offer to do it. Oh, right. And it's that thing of like it's something I've been working on for years and do I take this offer or wait or I don't really know much about CISO. And my son was back in the corner in that play area and you sat down with me.

And the first thing you said was, you're definitely, you should do it. If somebody is going to pay you for this, do it. Yeah. And then as you were telling me this, my son dragged from that back corner, a small chair with a juice in one hand and set it at the table with us. And you just were staring at him just kind of in awe that he wanted to take a seat at the table, dragging it like a kid in a school room,

just the loudest screeching noise. And then he was a little man at the table. He is a polite little man. Yeah. He says, I taught him something that I shouldn't have taught him because. Had a steal? Well, lying. I taught him how to lie. And have taught him because. Had a steal? Well, lying.

I taught him how to lie. And then that really kind of turned. No, on the way home. They learned that on their own. He was crying. He's like, I want to watch a cartoon. And I go, hey, how about if you stated it like this? What if you said, hey, dad, wouldn't it be a good idea if when we got home, I watched a cartoon?

Uh-huh. Yeah. And then he said that. And I was like, yeah, that's a great idea. Good idea, Townes. Yeah. I'll do it. Townes. And now he does that with everything. Wouldn't it be a great idea for me to have a cookie right now oh you name his namesake his name yeah boy i hope he

he doesn't honor that legacy maybe creatively well this is not lifestyle wise i was at the park in glendale yeah and this guy with his daughter was like, hey, Towns, get over here. And the guy goes, your son's name is Towns? And I said, yeah. And he goes, after Towns Van Zandt? Yeah. I'm like, oh, here it goes. Yeah, I know.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And he said, well, that's crazy because I manage his estate. I was like, what? And he's like, what's your email? I'll send you an unreleased song. So you're a big Towns fan?

Yeah. I'm just fascinated by him and some some of his history and also just his guitar pist like travis picking style and oh yeah i love that stuff yeah are you getting pretty good on the guitar i think i'm getting worse actually really well this whole special i don't play i stopped playing it you know taking it on the road wait a minute what news flash so no guitar this one. Nope. And it was,

I use it for a couple minutes in the middle when I'm mocking a youth pastor kind of a bit. Not really mocking, but a little. Well, what is this? Is there a through line

to this thing? You say you worked on it for two years. Is it just stand up? Three years. Three years. It's two stories and then the middle

is kind of a prelude to this TV show I'm writing about a church thing where it's like what I, you know, kind of a prelude to this tv show i'm writing about a church um thing where it's like what i you know kind of my thought on on hip youth pastors because i heard this youth pastor this really famous one i'm not going to you know say his name but he opens a sermon up with in front of thousands of people with millions of views with the line, I'll never forget when I was five years old and I got lost at a grocery store. Have you ever felt lost? Hmm.

And it just drove me. Did hands go up? Insane. Yes. And it just drove me insane that you could take this like non memory and equate it to people with deep spiritual issues, you know, of feeling lost or,

you know, and I just kind of like thought like, it's just the thought of Christianity kind of having this sort of mediocre element to it when it could be so much stronger because i just think i don't know and it's not even ripping on that it's just it seems simple it seemed like a simple thing but it annoys you yeah you thought it was a cheap hook yeah which i mean i'm sure you could kind of pull my stand up apart and say the same thing. No, no. But I mean, like, you know, as we discussed in the last episode, you know, you're a Christian

dude that, you know, at the time I talked to you last time, you were having some mild crisis of faith. And, you know, you're still engaged, apparently. It didn't push you out. Well, I did the Tonight Show last week and did the youth pastor bit, and the next day I got some, it was the biggest thing I'd ever done response-wise

on both sides. The Tonight Show. The Christians, yeah, people that loved it, and then Christians that thought I was mocking them, but then cool Christians that were like, yeah, all that stuff is so true. It's so funny, you know. Right. And then people that aren't involved with the church that kind of related to in some way.

But I emailed the producer. I was like, hey, man, I was curious if you guys are getting any backlash. And he goes, yeah, if you mean by letters from the Christian Defamation League all morning, yeah, we are. Oh, no. And I go, well, if you need to take it off YouTube, that's fine. And he's like, no, we love it. This is great. Any response is great.

Really? Cool. Interesting. So it was provocative to people. But see, Christians have such a loud voice, you know, and they will be heard. And I respect that. They seem to have a lot of them. There's a very seemingly grassroots movement of people that appear to have a lot of time on their hands.

Seems that way. Well, the show that I'm writing for ABC is called, well, we were going to call it Holy Shit, but ABC was like, well, that's not going to happen. Right, right. Because it's a workplace comedy at a church, but it got announced in the trades. because it's a workplace comedy at a church, but it got announced in the trades, and immediately these Christian websites filed petitions to send Disney to change the name. They dug out-

Holy shit was filed? Yeah. Oh, okay. They were just like, you can't say holy shit. It was a petition, and they referenced stuff that I said in your podcast and stuff that I've even said in other podcasts. Really?

Because I think at some podcast, I referenced this verse in other podcasts. Really? Because I think in some podcasts, I referenced this like verse in Revelation where the Lord says, you know, either you're hot or you're cold because if you're lukewarm, I'm just going to spit you out of my mouth, you know? Right. And I said in some thing,

they were like, so what kind of a Christian are you? And I was like, probably the most lukewarm Christian. Like God probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with me, but maybe that means that he would actually maybe care more about being around me I don't know yeah it seems why who are we to know yeah so that that got people worked up yeah they're building a dossier a guy admitting that he has flaws really got people worked up interesting yeah the entire religion's based on that yeah you'd think that's it That's why sin was, the notion of sin was invented.

Yeah. Is to realize that we cannot be perfected. We are flawed. And you have to keep these ones in check if you can. Yeah, and I guess it was, you know, it's like the same, it's a Townes Van Zandt lyric, and I think done over and over, but there ain't no dark until something shines. You know, it's like there is no forgiveness if there is no sin.

Because the whole progression of the special is wanting to be good, which essentially means that I'm not. Yeah. And what really wanted me to be good was my son. It makes you want to live longer just so you don't hurt them with your death right it's too young of an age wow you were thinking that before it even came out oh yeah huh i mean i quit smoking uh-huh just ways that i could be a dad for longer i guess uh-huh which i never thought about before but yeah in the end it's about this doctor that um the story of finding out that it was a boy yeah he told me it was a girl and i i

looked at the screen and said isn't that a penis and at a real hospital in los angeles he said if if he thinks he looked at my wife and said if he thinks that's a penis i want to know who got you pregnant he probably used that joke so many times yeah other other comedians have gone to this guy yeah yeah i mean not only that because i was i want i wanted a boy for some whatever misogynistic you know whatever uh-huh and then we went to another doctor it's not misogynistic for a man to want a son it's just it is what it is yeah yeah a month later another doctor he was like you know my wife had we'd gone through so much to where i was so caught up in what this doctor had said. And then turns out it is a boy.

That other doctor was just an asshole. And he was calling the shots way too early. So you had a healthy son. Yeah. And what are your primary struggles now around? Because like the last time I talked to you, which is years ago, your struggles around, you know around whether or not you're good or a good Christian were really selfish and kind of lifestyle struggles. What changed with the kid? Well, I stopped worrying about that as much. I think that was the progression of not caring about what people think, especially from that perspective of the church.

Right. That took a long time, but eventually it was just like, yeah, why am I trying to keep on good guard or impression with them? Yeah. But now it is like, you know, this morning we went to, I was telling you we were going to look at houses. And my wife said, you know, in the mornings you have a tone and Townes asks me

if you're angry sometimes and it's been a widely known thing in everyone in my family forever that you just kind of give me an hour in the morning really? yeah I need it I need to like

what are you feeling when you wake up? I think it's like the most depressed I feel oh really? yeah I think I feel like like here we go feel. Oh, really? Yeah. I think I feel like weight. Like here we go again? Weight on the shoulders of the day.

Yeah. Am I doing enough? Yeah. Is there more, you know? On all levels. And I have really dark dreams. I think that's also the social media thing I need to stop because, you know, I kind of go down these holes and like, I just have these dreams that are just horrible.

Yeah. A lot. Really? Yeah. And I. Really? Yeah. And I did see a doctor about it for a while. And then every now and again a good one will pop in. I'll feel good again. Yeah.

Like surprise. This one's going to be fun. But I do a thing where I wake up a lot in the night and then have a radically different dream again four times in a row. Like bad ones? Yeah. Bad.

Really? You know. And just things like I can't help my son. He's lost. That kind of stuff. Yeah. So just like panic. Dad's dying.

Panic. Fear. Things out of your control, Nick. And I had this really bad one that I'm sure people will interpret and this might lose my show on ABC. Who knows? Where I walk into my childhood bathroom. Yeah.

My mom is sitting on the edge of the tub and she's distraught. Yeah. And she looks at me and me she says why did you do it and that's it and i wake up oh my god that's great that one hurts and that's like once every couple years because it's so vague yeah and but you know but you know you did something i've been wondering it seemed like it's so vague. Yeah. But you know, you did something. I've been wondering. It seemed like it's pretty bad. It seems like. But I think that, you know, if you really take dreams for what they're worth or what they're saying, it's a, you know, I think it's a representation of your own, you know, self-doubt. almost like a confirming thing that here you have the woman that brought you into the world with no real other information other than like, well, what'd you do?

Why would you do that? What's wrong with you? Well, and I'm so sensitive. And this morning when my wife said that on the way to this first house, and we finished the first house and we get back in the car, she's like, why are you being so quiet? And I go, because you told me I'm a horrible dad. And she goes, that's not what I told you. I said, you're grumpy sometimes in the car she's like why are you being so quiet and i go because you told me i'm a horrible dad and she goes that's not what i told you i said you're grumpy sometimes

in the morning i do that too you you've interpreted it yeah it's gone through it's gone through the nick self-hatred interpreter yeah yeah and uh it seems to be getting more and more like far apart from what people are actually saying sometimes well yeah i find that too that like you know my interpretation what's being said is so informed by my own insecurities right yeah every time right and that's that's a problem because you know you're not you know and my girlfriend's brought this up it's like you know we're not having the same conversation because you're projecting all of this stuff that's coming it you know she didn't say this but i realize it's coming from my own ideas of who I am. Like if they say something that reinforces

my negative ideas about myself, then they're part of it. Yeah, well, I wake up in the morning and I know that I'm grumpy and I hate it. And I'm like trying to find options for, you know, what's a better routine. So when she mentions that, it's like, I thought I'd fixed it.

But why are you putting all this on yourself i mean isn't that it shouldn't uh shouldn't jesus be picking up a little slack yeah yeah you're gonna probably get a lot of letters from the christian defamation i doubt it i guess no i mean this is no but there's an open honest conversation i don't know what i don't understand if any if we talk about anything anything we've said here if they send emails it's like what are they sending emails about but what where is the the practice of your faith at this point do you guys go to church on sunday no no and and my mother-in-law told me this summer that she wants me to pray with my son at nighttime yeah and i said that makes sense yeah i. I should. And?

And it's a pretty fun experience. Oh, you're doing it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and he says some pretty interesting stuff. He thanked God for his daddy's beard the other night. I love how every time I've come in here, it really goes down this interesting religious conversation,

which I like. I think we did all right. I hope. I think that's how we ended the last one. I think I said last time, I was like, oh, man, I'm insecure about that. Well, and, you know, I don't, I mean, to name drop, but I got, after doing the last one, I got some really nice messages from some cool people that I just, you know, I didn't know that about you. That's really cool. But Anthony Jeselnik sent me a text that said, if all Christians like

were like you, I wouldn't hate them. Oh, he's a devil. Well, congratulations, man, on, on having a healthy son and, you know, being okay and earning a living and the marriage still working and still working on your relationship with God. You seem good. Thanks, doctor. Okay, buddy. See, that was nice. Good to see Nick.

Good to have the conversation. Good that he's doing okay and that his family's all right. I don't know. It's nice to check in. It's good. It's good. Again, his Nick special, Good Guy, is now available on cso and amazon now let's get to my buddy john daniel so john and i lived in new york at a time back in the day mid 90s when i was married or

almost married i met him because he was a friend of my managers and this guy really you know i was a little late to the party back before the internet was as popular and as intense as it is now. And there really is no late to the party. The party is ongoing and can get pretty shitty, apparently. But he filled in a lot of areas in my music education and turning me on to music and, you know, as a musician as well, you know, just telling me stuff about music that I didn't know, turning me on to a whole world of bands, but also being a good friend. And we, you know, it's not like we have lost touch, but we're not,

we don't have the time we used to and we don't really talk as much as we did. You know, hardly, we don't talk much at all. But I love the guy and it was great to talk to him about his story and about music and about, you know, his place in the music industry. Now, it's pretty fascinating. Smart guy and it was great to talk to him about his story and about music and about you know his place in the music industry now it's pretty fascinating smart guy it was great to see him and uh and i think you'll i think you'll dig it i think you'll dig the interview this is me and uh jonathan daniel talking in the garage all right john i guess what what we got to do here is we got to like there's some gaps there's a there's a slight gap from uh from when i knew you in new york and then like i don't know maybe you're worried about me thought I'd slide off the grid

and then the next thing I know you're the hugely successful music manager and uh and all of a sudden I was like what you own a bar you're like I feel like there was some sort of 15 year gap we can get to that but I guess I want to establish at the beginning that you know I've known you for I guess what is it 20 years now yeah that sounds about right does it 95 ish yeah that sounds yeah it is like 20 years that's crazy yeah right yeah it is so i've known you for like 20 years when i met you you were a washed up musician and i and but you would you would tasted it you had tasted fame. You had tasted fame. Yeah, when you met me, it definitely like a low.

Right. But the thing that's amazing about our friendship is that at the time, I was sort of stuck in a rut musically in a lot of ways. And you taught me. We'd have these discussions sort of like, I don't get power pop. What is pop? I had this blues based idea of music and I just couldn't wrap my brain around the difference.

And you're like, well, there's a fourth chord, there's a minor chord and then there was a B minor chord or something like that. And I was like, that's it, that's the key. Changed my whole life. Well, it's like, you know, there's like the Beatles and Stones divide and you were definitely Stones. Right, it's like the Beatles and Stones divide, and you were definitely Stones.

Right. But I liked the Beatles, but I just didn't understand what came from them. I understood. I remember it was like, I get Elvis Costello. I know the squeeze. But right. It was about a minor chord. Yeah.

Right? It was about minor chords. It's just like a minor instead of those. It's instead of going like e to d yeah you know you would go e to c sharp minor right and that and because i was a guitar player i was like oh there's a whole world out there i just don't get and that's when you turn me on to like cheap trick and i was able to make the replacements connection and and then categorize some of the bands i did like as pop bands, and then move into that whole other world.

That was because of you. Thank you for that. But let's go back, because I think at that time, your biggest claim to fame that anyone would know would be the band Candy. It would be the Gilby from Candy, Gilby Clark, that joined Guns N' Roses. Right, but Candy had its day, didn't it? Yeah, yeah, we had some moments. That's actually how we met. We met because your manager at that time Dave Becky Dave Becky was a big fan of candy

right and we and that was in the 90s so I was not married yet but I was living with Kim right that sounds right yeah and I was living on 16th street which is around the corner from you three blocks right on 19th and Becky thought we should hang out. You were kind of hanging around with Becky a little bit, and you knew some of the comedy stuff, but you weren't all in. And then we met because you told me the other day. What was it? It's so dark for me.

There was a time, and I'll borrow your joke for it, but there was a time I had I'll borrow your joke for it, but there was a time, you know, I had had like three record deals and I had this thought that, oh, maybe music's not going to be right for me. Maybe I'm not going to be an astronaut when I grow up. And a girl who liked my bands had given me this job at Sony doing accounting work. Oh, yeah. It was horrifying.

doing accounting work and oh yeah it was horrifying and and so when becky and so i could get a discount on cd players or dvds or something and so becky was like oh call my friend he'll get you a discount and i was like oh god and so i think i probably gave you like i have this memory that's fairly embarrassing of me giving you like my cds and like maybe articles i'd written going hey i'm not i'm not the guy that's an accountant you know just trying to like just buy my own way into credibility right and what i remember going up there the sony building and you came down from your office i don't remember going up to that office right and you met me in the store right right and i i think i bought one of those um mini disc recorders that sounds about

right yeah yeah because there was like that was what the instead of a cassette recorder that's what we were using that would have been something that would have been worth getting a discount on right it's like 400 right yeah yeah also the connection was that we were in hollywood at the same time i think yeah definitely that we started talking you when I was out here doing drugs with Kennison you were like down the street I was I was at I was sitting in the audience while you were doing drugs watching Sam I was backstage you know cutting up lines for him because you were the band was candy yeah there was a big thing with like that era of music to go to the store. Like it was like a boon of stand-up comedy. Right.

It was all connected then because of Sam, really. Yes. Yeah. He was definitely like the lynchpin, but Dice to an extent as well. And just like there was, I mean, there were so both periods, both the 80s period. And then when we hung out in the 90s with all your friends, those are like real like pinnacle eras of comedy. Completely different. thing occasionally and you were three blocks away. That's right. So you and Renee would go out with me and Kim was great because you and I could talk, they could talk, and it just, it was what you were supposed to do. That's right.

So you're a bass player and a songwriter. Right. So, yeah. So I grew up in Berkeley. Yeah. Grew up a hippie. My father was a left-wing radical. Now he's a right-wing radical.

David, what's his name david horowitz people know him right i remember that was compelling to me too it's sort of like how do you live with that guy right yeah so he was you know he was a left-wing radically he was the editor of ramparts then he uh which was a big kind of left-wing rag at the time right in the late 60s early 70s and then he you know he was a big supporter of the Black Panther Party. Right. And yet there was an episode or an incident or whatever you call it where he had recommended one of his friends to be the bookkeeper and they killed her.

And that's what flipped him. Right. And sort of like, basically he's an idealist. Yeah. And then his ideals flip the other direction yeah well i mean i i think that yeah there was idealism and there was sort of like uh the grand world view and then when it came right down to to action uh you know that can get pretty scary yeah especially when what they just killed her for how that happened i think

they killed her because she realized that they were running guns and drugs. Yeah. You know, because she was the bookkeeper and she was like, hey, wait a minute. Oh, and that was your dad's friend? Yeah. And that just, that was it. Yeah. From then on out, it was the other way.

Because I think, you know, I think that there was probably like a lot of incredible about the Black Panthers and a lot of real bad about the Black Panthers. Sure. Yeah, I mean, yeah, my girlfriend reads about it too. There was definitely a lot coming at them and a lot within the organization that was... It's so hard. Like, you know, it's like being like super famous. It's like being Kim Kardashian.

Right. But with like an idealism. So they may have started out and been like incredibly right but as you get so famous and people are attacking you right it's hard to know and also they're trying to to kill you from the inside yeah they were like always being penetrated right by those agent provocateurs and people that were starting so your dad you know came up in that craziness in in in the bay area in the 60s yeah Yeah. So I grew up like that. And then when punk rock hit, I was like, oh, I want to be in a band.

Right. Right. So I sold my comic books. I went to L.A. and New York. You were a big comic book guy? When I was 12, yeah. I sold my Spider-Man so I could buy like a bass and a keyboard. And you didn't know how to play.

No, I didn't know anything. You knew nothing. I don't know if I still know how to play. But, you know, it was punk rock. So, like, seeing the Ramones and the Clash and the Pistols, I was like, oh, I could do this. You didn't see them live, though. Oh, I saw all those bands. Yeah, very early on.

In San Francisco? Yeah. Really? I saw the Clash as one of their first gigs in America at the Temple Beautiful in San Francisco. Yeah. Definitely, like, made me want to play music. Yeah. I saw the Ramones at the Keystone Berkeley opening for Earthquake.

I saw the last Pistol Show at Winterland. So yeah, I was super into it. And I went, I took my paper route money and I went to London, New York and LA, you know, because I was like, well, I can't be in a punk band in Berkeley. Right. You know. Not for a few in Berkeley right you know not for a few more years yeah not for 10 years if I'd been 10 years later I would have been friends with Green Day and Rancid but this is 78 77 so I went there and uh to where to LA first to yeah I went

to LA and you're like 18 no I'm 16 oh my god did you drop out of school no no I was I was I was a good student, so I was getting a college scholarship and all this, but I knew what I wanted to do. So I went to London. It was like the summer of punk. That was incredible. New York was terrifying. Just walking in the Bowery. Late 70s? 77.

So that was it? Yeah, nothing but junkies. I was just like, oh, my God, I'm going to die. And I went to LA and there's like a giant billboards of Warren Beatty and Jim. I'm like, oh, I think I should be here. This thing's good. So I got a scholarship to UCLA, which paid for me to live. And that's, yeah, I moved to LA to be in a punk band.

And then I started going to the- What were you going to the school for? To pay for me to be in the punk band. And then I started going to the- What were you going to the school for? To pay for me to be in the punk band. But you weren't majoring in anything? Oh, I mean, sure. I graduated. With what? I was a good student.

Yeah. I was good at taking tests. So I was economic, sociology. Nothing's all bullshit majors. But it must have done something. School? No, it must have sunk in. Those seem to be, you know, relative to the guy I know.

And I didn't know any of this. It probably all, you know, it's all a path, right? It's so funny because you and your brother are sort of like, you know, geniuses. Yeah, some things. Like, what did he, he invented Netscape, right? His, so his partner is really a genius. Oh, so he's good at being friends with geniuses. Yeah, he's like, you know, or he's-

A facilitator? You know, helping them like, helping the genius come out. Right. You know. He did all right. Yeah, yeah. So my brother's wildly successful. He's got this VC company that we basically do the same thing, except he has like, I deal in millions and he deals in billions in the opportunities.

He's dealing with tech companies? Yeah. And you're dealing with rock and roll music people. Yeah. All right, so you go to LA, you're 17, you're at UCLA. I go to this club called the Starwood. Every Tuesday and Wednesday, it's punk night. Yeah.

Like, you know, Darby Crash and the Bags bags and the germs and fear and these bands are playing and i walk into the starwood one of these nights this is my favorite thing i go see all every every tuesday and wednesday i go and one night i walk in and there's this nicky six standing there yeah and i went i want to be that guy just standing there with his hair out. I was like, wow. And he looks like Johnny Thunders. Yeah. And so I grew my hair. And that was like the start of that era of, you know.

Hair metal? Yeah, hair metal became like, it became such an exciting, crazy time. So that was a time where punk was sort of arcing out. And rock was redefining itself because i mean like this is post aerosmith it's post all that shit and these and new york dolls i guess hair metal was was well metal and rock was like persona non grata right it was uh this is 79 when i moved to la so it's really just uh it's at that time in LA, what's happening is stuff like the knack. Right.

And it's like post-punk, very poppy. New wave, yeah. Yeah, new wavy cars-ish kind of stuff. So that created the power vacuum for hair metal to come in. That's right. And it's good, right, because it's always a counter. Yeah. And there was the British metal scene in the UK that was exciting.

With Motorhead? With Motorhead and Saxon and Def Leppard ultimately came out of that Iron Maiden. Yeah. And you could feel the underground of what metal was. And in LA, Los Angeles bastardizes stuff and makes it shinier and more presentable. And that's what hair metal was. So you grew your hair out. Yep. And are you learning how to play bass at this point?

Yeah, definitely, because I started thinking I was a better piano player or keyboard player than I was a bass player, so I thought I was going to be a keyboard player, but it just looked a lot cooler to play bass. It seemed easy enough. Were you playing in a punk band? I had played in several punk bands, yeah.

With anybody? Not anybody of consequence, yeah. easy enough were you playing in a punk band i had played in several punk bands yeah with anybody not anybody of consequence yeah i played in a you know in la it's great because like there used to be this magazine called the recycler which i guess is what craig's list would be now right and you would just meet people in this thing i met mick mars that way you know just people would answer ads and that's how i met gilby gilby clark yeah ultimately went on to guns and roses he was my guitar player in candy i i had an ad that said i think it said something like i want a guitar player with messy hair into david bowie and nick gilder in the suite or something like that and uh and yeah and said gilby called that's how i met gilby so all right

so you guys are like 18, 17, 18? Yeah, 18 years old. He's 17. I'm 18. And you're growing your hair out. And who were the bands? Did you start going around to watch metal now after the punk when you decided? There really weren't metal bands.

That's the thing. There were, but they were just playing out in Pasadena and Monrovia. Wasn't London around? Well, that was Nicky's band. They were just like playing out in Pasadena and Monrovia. Wasn't London around? Well, that was Nicky's band. They were just starting. Pre-Motley Crue? Yeah, pre-Motley Crue. So that's the band that I really loved.

London. Yeah. So they were just starting out. So this scene was pushing out, you know, like punk had receded. And I guess as a live event or as something that people could respect, those sort of new wave bands kind of evolved more into a dance thing or what? Or they weren't a live thing? They were, but it was like they didn't look cool.

Like, you know, they were just not exciting. Right. The Knack were a good band, actually. Yeah, yeah. But they didn't look cool so you're seeing london and you you get gilby and you guys are growing your johnny thunder's hair that's right what you told me about how it was done at one point i was sort of fascinated by like it was a lot of spray net right yeah aquanet aquanet there were different ways like gilby figured out that you could take ivory soap and rub it on your hands and just go like this to your hair and it would stand up for a long time.

It would stick? Yeah, it was pretty gross because the soap, when you sweat, when you play, the soap would get in your eyes and sting. So you guys are all living together? Yeah, we all had a two, the four of us had a two-bedroom apartment on Palm, right below Sunset. Yeah. And Motley Crue was one block away on Clark. Yeah. And so we would go to the parties at their house.

But they weren't big yet either, right? Oh, no, they were just starting. So you're all just starting. So you're hanging around with Motley Crue and your candy, and who else was around? I mean, all of them. GNR wasn't around yet. They weren't around yet, but Izzy was around.

Izzy Stratton. We loved Izzy. Yeah. Yeah. Good guy. He was great. Unbelievable. Like he's your guy.

Yeah. He was stones. He was a blues player. Yeah. He would just listen to Exile on Main Street. He had a boom box with that tape. Oh, and listen over and over.

And he's a good player. He was like, he was, he was the right player right player right all rhythm yeah to balance slash yeah yeah yeah slash worked at at that time he was at tower video yeah working but uh is he is he and axl had a band called hollywood rose yeah yeah yeah i mean i i booked their first gig in a in in LA at a place called madam Wong's Chinatown which was a Chinese restaurant I remember that and it was the audience was basically me Gilby and our friend Tim P who had a group called flies on fire that was really good yeah and I remember watching

their first gig not Guns N' Roses, but Hollywood Rose, the first Axl gig. Right. Going, holy shit, like this guy is a superstar. You knew it? Oh, yeah. One, yeah. Just from the minute he opened his mouth, you're just like, oh. When's this going to happen?

So when does the scene start? So like, when does the scene start coalescing? So what happens is no one will sign the bands no one will play the records and a couple of the bands get people to make their own records motley crew got some rich investors yeah i think there was alan kaufman i think was his name but it said kaufman and kaufman on the record yeah and then quiet riot got posh quiet riot really blew it up. Rat got Milton Berle's kid. Yeah. Made their record for them.

So everybody had like an investor to make the records. Yeah, a patron. Yeah. But then KLOS, which was like the classic rock station in LA, started playing these bands and the phones lit up. And then MTV. And they were local. Yeah.

Yeah, they were local bands so there was that connection like this is from la this is what's happening that's right and then mtv started playing quiet right and then bang your head became like you know and come on feel the noise and all of a sudden quiet right it's all like five million records and every record company was in la going get me one of these so everybody was trying to do their thing yeah everybody was like five you know yeah so so everybody was getting signed so you and gilby who are the other members of candy uh kyle who i went to high school with yeah that's my is my friend and john schubert, who I met through a guitar player that I found in the Music Connection ad. Yeah.

And where are those guys? So Kyle's in, I talked to Kyle yesterday. He's great. He's still singing. He makes his own records. And he lives in Massachusetts now. And John is a teacher. John's the best guy ever.

He got out. Yeah. He's a teacher in In Inglewood oh good yeah so I always it's weird I've gotten to this age where I'm thrilled when people get out you know like good for you it is like sometimes you have the courage to get out it is there's that thing where it's like you know sometimes like I think about it I'm like wow if I had had a hit I'd probably still be in candy but yeah it's still trying to get another hit well you said that amazing thing to me too this was the outside of you know reconfiguring my music

brain there was some conversation we had there's a couple of great moments and we'll get to them when we get to that period but you uh you said to me you know you have to realize it being an adult is realizing your limitations and I just remember you saying that. We used to have these walks, you and I, in New York. We'd just walk, and I'd tell you, like, how I was doing the wrong thing in every way. And you'd be like, yeah, yeah. And then you'd just lay one of these little gems on me. But realizing your limitations, like if you're talented, like I never forgot that.

Like it stays with me. I don't know where you got it. You know where I got it? Where? Dirty Harry. Come on. It's, you know, this famous Clint Eastwood speech where he goes, I know what you're thinking. Yeah.

Fire six shots are only five. Right. The end of that speech, he goes, a man's got to know his limitations. No shit. The end of that speech, he goes, a man's got to know his limitations. No shit. And that resonated with you philosophically. That speech was so important to me that I used to love movies, so I would tape those kind of things. Yeah.

And that was one of the ones I had on tape, and I would listen to it. What other ones? Terrible things like Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Yeah. I definitely know all the words from that. Chinatown was a big one for me, Jack Nicholson. Yeah. But when you tape these old things and then you tape these movies,

sometimes those things just stick with you. All right, so you and Gilby and the other two dudes, you're kicking around. Who's writing the songs? That's me. You're the songwriter. Yeah. So I think that that was, I think it was probably a mistake, but I was definitely, I was very much a control freak.

I probably still am. And I definitely didn't share. Yeah. I think I, you know, it's like, I definitely didn't share. Yeah. I think I, you know, it's like, I'm glad that I'm not in a band in the social media age because I think I'd hate myself because of the narcissism. Right.

But at that time, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm a genius. I'm going to write these songs and you guys are going to play them. And they probably would have been better. I think I was good at lyrics. Yeah. But I think the songs would have been better. I was, I think I was good at lyrics. Yeah. But I think the songs would have been better if I had, had everybody right with me. But now like, you know, as a manager and I know that, you know, part of the evolution of, of surviving in the music industry now is that, you know, you grew to respect managers

and producers that were hands-on with the band and crafting songs and sounds. And, but at that time you, you were in the dark about that stuff. Yeah. I didn't know anyone in the music business. So I didn't know what a producer did, a manager did, a record company. I didn't know anything. In some respects, that was amazing because there was this naivete from what we did. Yeah.

If I had known, I probably wouldn't have done half the stupid things that we did like we had like i remember we lit the curtain the drop curtain at the roxy on fire because we had homemade flashbots and they went off and like we could have burned the place down and we probably shouldn't have done that right had the homemade flashbots you know. But we didn't know. We didn't know anything. Did you ever play the Roxy after that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we fortunately like we saw the curtain go up

and me and Gilby stomped it out because we were in the front before it became a problem. So who signed Candy? So Candy was first signed to a label called Curb Records, which is Mike Curb, who does well in country, but he's definitely notorious for being very tough on the deals. Yeah. And then- How'd you get that guy? That guy came through Kim Fowley. You knew Kim Fowley? Kim Fowley was, yes. So Kim Fowley was really who helped Candy get off the ground.

He was like a notorious monster in some ways. He taught me the music business. Kim Fowley did. I know so little about him other than these bits and pieces from the Runaways, and his solo career was sort of odd, correct? He's such an interesting, odd, strange person. So we were playing a show. So this is how I got in the music business yeah

so we're playing a show at madame wong's west yeah we're like on at 11 o'clock at night on a tuesday like no one cares yeah and uh the band before is this band called tantrum that has somebody from a band that kim produced before so i see kim in the elevator and i'm like oh shit that's kim felly how'd you know him from what? Just from pictures in Cream Magazine of him with the Runaways. So I'm like, oh, this is my ticket. I'm going to make this guy like me. So he looks at my shirt and I've got this super cool Bowie print.

It's like a black and red print shirt. He's like, that's cool. I'm like, you got to come see my band. We're like, we're, you know, we're a cross between the Ramones and the Monkees or whatever I said. Yeah. He was like, all right, kid. So he watched the band. He's like, all right, you're doing it all wrong.

He's like, come to my apartment, play me all your songs, and I'll tell you how to do this. And we went to his apartment till like seven in the morning. He's like, you know, he's kind of a creepy, strange guy. So we don't know what's going to happen. It's just you and Gilby or all of you? It's all of us. It's a whole band. And I'm playing him like, you know, every song I've ever written.

And he goes, okay, kid, when's your next gig? I go, the Troubadour. He goes, here's my Rolodex. Call every single person in this and put them all on the guest list. And it took us a week. We called everybody in the Rolodex, call every single person in this and put them all on the guest list. And it took us a week. We called everybody in the Rolodex and said, hey, we're calling from Kim Fowley's office. You're invited to our show.

We played the troubadour. There's a lion around the block. It's like we're the Beatles. There's like girls throwing roses at us, taking pictures. I'm like, oh, shit, it's show business. Of course. So, yeah. And so Kim was like, oh, it's like, oh shit, it's show business. Of course. Yeah. So yeah. And so Kim was like, oh, he's like, all right,

we're going to get you a record deal. And he started like bringing people down and we played for Clive Davis and, you know, and just the usual people. Oh yeah. Like, by the way, like two months into being a band, no business playing for anybody at this point. He's playing for one of the biggest guys

in the record industry yeah and at the clive davis showcase michael lloyd who's an anr guy and a producer for mike curb records was there and he goes oh i'll sign you and he had produced sean cassidy and life garrett and he we didn't see eye to eye he wanted us to be more of a bubblegum band yeah we wanted to be and so i was like well we got to get out of this deal and at and we started building we you know from that troubadour sign the deal and you realized after yeah of course because we're 18 we signed oh it's a record deal that sign it and then uh so we just started, you know, we were, and we were building and like, we had like a real thing going in LA. Yeah.

Because from the Troubadour show, it was like, oh, I get it. It's show business. So let's figure out how to make us feel bigger than we are all the time. And we got, we got a manager. We got a TV deal because it's Los Angeles. Yeah. With Orion Television. Yeah.

Wanted to make a TV show out of the band. Yeah. Because we all lived together like the monkeys, and we all had the same kind of haircut, so it seemed like a TV show. And to your credit, just by coincidence, none of you guys were fuck-ups. Right. Yeah, that was probably our downfall. But you weren't boozers. There was no junkies, there was no...

No, we were definitely reasonably clean. Right. We would drink. I mean, we were kids, too, so we would drink, but not... Right. You know, it was girly drinks. Right. You weren't gunning for the end.

That's right. Yeah. So you get this TV thing, too? So we get the tv thing with orion she goes well you need a manager because we didn't have a manager when we signed a record deal and so she brought in howard marks who was managing kissed and he said oh i like you and he's like oh this record deal is terrible and i was like yeah i hate this record deal and he was like okay i'll get you out i'll bring kisses a and r guys so then he comes flies in from new york

that's all you had to do get out of a deal pretty much we bought we we bought our way out but it was like relatively inexpensive it was a few thousand bucks right right because i think michael because you weren't a known quantity you weren't making money and i Michael, no, we hadn't done anything. And I think Michael, the producer, was like, I think he probably was like, this kid's really full of himself. I don't need this in my life. Right. Because you were fighting him. Yeah. I would fight him on everything.

So now you're signed with the Kiss guy. Yeah. So he brings out. He's a manager? Yeah, he's a manager. He brings it. Howard Marks. Yeah.

And he brings Jerry Jaffe, who's an A&R guy in New York, out to see us. And Jerry, I love Jerry, and he signs us to Mercury Records, and that's how we got the deal. For the first Candy record. First Candy record. And you go into the studio, and that's where you learn what a producer does? And we go- Who produced it? So, you know, we have no idea what a producer is.

So we go, oh, can Phil Spector or George Martin do it? We're going on like the list of the guys that we've heard of that are producers. Right, right, right, right. And they're like, no, no. And I'm like, well, Jimmy Ioner had done the Raspberries records. And like, we really liked the Raspberries. Yeah. So it was like, well, let's call Jimmy Ionor had done the Raspberries records, and we really liked the Raspberries. Yeah. So it was like, well, let's call Jimmy Ionor.

Jimmy was like, all right, I'll produce it. You kids need a lot of work. Everything Jimmy said was right. Yeah. We needed a lot of work. But again, it's- What was that process like, though? What was the learning curve on that?

And when he said work, what did it to you as the the sort of bass playing leader of the band oh i was so arrogant i wasn't listening to anybody yeah i was just like we got this yeah right we're playing we're playing the roxy and the whiskey and selling out like you know we've got the kids we've got the kids what do you know about getting on the radio or whatever and uh so i would do what he asked. Like he would ask for lyric changes and things. Yeah. But it was in a begrudging way.

Yeah. We'd do the record. You like it? No. Because we didn't really listen to him. Yeah. We didn't really make the record that he wanted us to make. Yeah.

And it wasn't as punk as we were. Right. But you were still drawing from it. It seemed like the pedigree was pretty poppy. I mean, if you're talking the Raspberries. Yeah. Yeah. We wanted to be a successful Ramones.

Yeah. A commercially successful Ramones. Right.ones obviously the ramones are genius yeah but uh we wanted to be the ramones that were on the radio right so so what happened so they released the record it's pretty much crickets except that mtv takes a liking to the video which i had to write the treatment whatever happened to fun oh yeah that's your big almost hit yeah so I had to you know because because I couldn't give up control I wrote the video treatment so all all stupid shit okay and and so MTV starts playing the video and we get get some tours with Rick Springfield and Corey Hart but because we we're not as big as Michael Jackson, we're just like, fuck this.

Kick the singer out of the band. It's all kinds of stupid. Okay, but those are who you're billed with. So this is not really the world of testosterone and metal. No, because the record didn't sound like testosterone and metal. But that's not your bag anyways. No, I was fine with not being a metal band. Yeah.

But one of the things that was interesting that happened, and maybe it's all of it affected how I manage, is so at that time I was friends with the Poison guys and I was helping them slightly. I wasn't like a big part of their thing or anything but they were living in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and I would give them some tips on how to come to LA and

it's real fun here and you can get a record deal. How'd you meet them? I met them through another band from Baltimore called The Vamps. And then they got a friend of mine and Gilby's, CeCe DeVille, to play guitar for them. So then that's how I became like good friends with them.

And you pulled him out to LA? Yeah, come out to LA, meet Kim Fowley, you know, all that kind of stuff. You stayed in touch with Fowley? Yeah, he passed away recently. I know. But I've stayed in touch with him the whole time. Oh, really? Yeah.

He heckled me at South by Southwest at a panel. It was amazing. But one of the things that I realized that they did much smarter than we did is they did pop music, but they put it in the guise of a metal band.

Yeah. And we were just floating in no man's land like there was a guy who uh uh the the college radio guy at mercury yeah guy named jack iskwith who i'm still friends with who's a great guy he was the first guy to tell me the truth in the record business yeah he goes kid i know what you are. He's like, but you're fucked because you think you're Lord to the new church and this label thinks you're wham. And I was like, oh no. That was the truth.

And that's when I realized that it was like, oh, so if we're gonna stay on the labels business, that's why we started doing the Rick Springfield, Corey Hart. I was like, they think we're a pop band. Okay, we got to play ball in that world. And did you go over with those audiences? Oh, we killed. Yeah. Yeah, because my singer, he had a great poppy voice.

Who? Kyle. Yeah. It's just like, it's such a a nice it's such a good pop star voice yeah and we were and we were we were dangerous

for those crowds right so little girls yeah all little girls yeah they loved it and but but you know

we wanted to be we had no patience whatsoever so we were like fuck this gonna get rid of the singer Gilby's gonna sing

and yeah so we we imploded ourselves for no good reason. After the first record. After the first record, yeah. And then what happens? What does that look like? So then what happens is LA changes.

We come back from tour and all of a sudden, Guns N' Roses, it's a new scene. It's a darker scene. So like now it's the real hair metal thing. That's right. And so it's, L.A. is an explosion. Yeah. And it's incredible.

It's like everyone's walking around in a band passing out flyers. Right up there on Sunset. The strip is like all metal kids. That's Penelope Spheeris' second movie. Penelope Spheeris' second movie, which is incredible. Decline of Western Civilization with the guy from Wasp in the pool. It's one of the greatest documentaries.

That guy didn't turn out well. No. I don't think anyone in that movie turned out that well. And just all those kids, too. It was unreal. But that's the time. That is the time. So you get back and you're like, what the fuck?

Yeah. It was like, it's it's so crazy what's happening here so what happens is and that's when the comedy store is cranking comedy store is cranking right gilby and i go well if we split into two bands we'll probably get two record deals because everyone's getting a record deal and if we stay candy we're gonna probably just like you know nobody at that time, nobody. If you lost your record deal, you were kind of persona non grata. So we split into two bands and John, the drummer, and I became Electric Angels.

Oh, yeah. I had that CD. And then Gilby becomes Kill for Thrills. Yeah. And we both get record deals. We moved to New York and we get a record deal three weeks later with Atlantic. Gilby gets a record deal with MCA. So it was like, so yeah, that was part two.

It was like the gypsy years. All right. So the Electric Angels comes out and does nothing. The Electric Angels comes out and does nothing. But did the label get behind it? They didn't. Yeah. But in their defense, knowing what I know now, we didn't give them a record to get behind.

Labels are really good at radio. That's their thing. They have control over it. At that time. Yeah. Still they are. It's still there. That's what they're exceptional at.

They're the best in the world. If you really want to be on the radio, you have to be on a big label. They know what hits are. They know what hits are, and they also know when to spend the money, spend a little bit more money promoting a hit, all that kind of stuff. But they also have people that work at those places

that are really good at radio. And this is something you learn later. I learned that the hard way. With Electric Angels, we gave them a record that sounded like it wasn't a metal record. It was kind of dark and glammy. And it wasn't like a pop record. It was like, what do we do with this? Radio's what we do.

So we did a lot of touring. And we built up a good cult following, just like Candy did. But same thing. It was like, fuck this label. Like, you know, same implosion. All right. So Electric Angels craps out. So when do you start applying the know your limitations?

So that's when I start to go, okay, maybe I'm not going to be an astronaut. Yeah. Let childhood dreams pass. Yeah. Let the childhood dreams pass. Let me get a job. Let me, like, earn some money. Yeah. money yeah and you know that job was so terrible like but you had no but you had no vision for what that would be in terms of like how am i gonna make my how am i gonna get big

yeah like you had to let that go because you had to start somewhere that's right so how do you end up in the fucking accounting department at sony that it was more like well maybe quality of life is different like maybe i'm wrong like maybe i'm wrong about everything right that maybe i shouldn't be in music maybe i shouldn't maybe there's like i was never driven by money like you were never driven by right it was driven by yeah how do i get big yeah and how do i do what i want how do i do what i want yeah it's like maybe maybe i i mean i'm good at accounting like it's easy i do it for my band yeah and it was easy but it was such a miserable job i got bell's palsy i remember that because that's when we were friends so this is

like the mid 90s and we're hanging out and you're miserable and you got me a deal on things you're teaching me about the music business we got our girlfriends we're eating italian food by your house and uh you know i'm telling you what's going on in comedy and you're like you know kind of you know uh chiming in about that and we're you know seeing because at that time it was me and louis and todd berry and nick de palo is sort of like right around the beginning of alt comedy and a lot of things were happening for me but that weren't happening and then your face drops half your face just falls down yeah and i remember we went out to dinner i'm like what the fuck and you're like i don't know man and it's like it's supposed to go away yeah that's like

it was at it was with you when i like first noticed it where like yeah my face dropped and i was like what the fuck is going on yeah Yeah. Because I remember we went on one of those walks. Yeah. And I went to, you go to a doctor for Bell's palsy and they're like, we don't know what causes it. Right. We don't know how to cure it. Right.

I'm like, fuck. Yeah. Like this is. I'm going to look like this, like a stroke guy. I felt so bad for you because you're like, I don't know. They say probably go away. Yeah. I don't know how long.

And I went to an acupuncturist and the guy goes you don't like your job quit your job i was like yeah that makes sense how did he know that and so i was like okay i'm gonna dive back into music and i started producing things remember i produced produced that girl, the New York Loose? Do you remember that? Yeah. What was her name? Bridget. Yeah. Yeah, she was great. And so I was producing things,

and so I was just like, I'm going to quit this job, dive into music. And then New York Loose happened, right? I'm trying to remember what she looked like. She was blonde, cool-looking, like a Debbie Harry kind of looking girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you got her a deal. Got her a deal. As her manager? No, really. No, just like as a hustler. You Harry kind of looking girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you got her a deal. Got her a deal.

As her manager? No, really. No, just like. Like you were kind of A&Ring. As a hustler. Yeah. I was just hustling. Right.

You know, and. Who'd you call to get that deal? I just like, just, she was a good hustler and I was a good hustler and we just started like working everybody in the business. Right. And then once that happened, I got that job at Fiction. Right. That was the guy from The Cure, right?

The guy. The manager. Chris Perry, The Cure's manager. He set you up in an office in the BMG building. That's exactly right. In New York. And you were just sort of like doing his whatever he needed. But you had a lot of free time.

I had a lot of free time. And that was the amazing thing. It's like you never could really tell me exactly what you did for him. But this is his rug. Oh, thing. It's like, you never could really tell me exactly what you did for him, but this is his rug. Oh, yeah, that's right. Because he left his New York apartment. It was like, you just take whatever you need. You need a rug and I'll take that.

This is the same rug, dude. So Chris Perry, he's my hero, essentially, because he's the one who showed me how to do it all. So he was in a band from New Zealand called The Formula when he was a kid. Moved to London. He had a big hit in New Zealand, moved to London. The band stiffed. He became an A&R guy. He's the guy in the great rock and roll swindle that gives the Pistols the demo money,

and then they sign with somebody else. That's him. Yeah. And then he signed The Jam, and he produced The Jam albums, and then he found The Cure, and he quit his job as an A&R guy and became The Cure's him. Yeah. And then he signed the jam and he produced the jam albums and he became, and then he found the Cure and he quit his job as an A&R guy and became the Cure's manager. Who was he A&R for? DMI?

Polydor. Polydor. Yeah. See, like you were the guy who taught me what A&R is. I didn't know any of this shit. And like A&R people, they're the guys that signed the guys for the labels and that's a big money game. Yeah.

That's right. If you're good at it. So your guy, what's his name again? Chris Perry. Chris Perry is now the manager of the Cure. money game yeah if you're good at it so your guy what's his name again chris perry chris perry is now the manager of the cure but by the time you meet him the cure is like already huge huge they're doing they're almost done yeah in a way so he was like by that time he had moved on to doing radios he he built a radio uh station in the uk called xfm right and he but he just showed me like that the music business it's it's what you make of it it's kind of like what i did when i

was in a band only i'm not in the band anymore so like i can do it with different bands and it's it's just like it really is whatever you want it to be. Right. I remember the one thing that kind of blew your mind when you were at Sony. The thing that I think started giving you the Bell's palsy was that these artists were not picking up their residual checks. Oh, yeah. That was crazy. So they would just be like, what would you say? Ben Morrison with like $860,000. Yeah.

Yeah. And they're not going to find him. Yeah. And so that, yeah, I think that was part of the sort of like, holy shit. Yep, yep. Yeah, there's like all this money here. Right.

Yeah. All right, so he's like, so you can do whatever you want in the music business when you have that zone to sort of produce, manage, A&R. Like, you know, it's sort of once you're in the house, you can kind of do whatever. Yeah, and it's more like you do what's sort of once you're in the house you can kind of do whatever yeah and it's more like you do what you think is right rather than like what you think you're supposed to do out of you he just wanted me to find bands and and or find writers and sign them to publishing

deals and which i did for him and we had like we had a bunch of hits just to have as a manager you were you were sort of doing publisher he wanted me to do it for him as a publisher okay so sign like the songwriting part of it right and you sign people yeah yeah yeah yeah we had we had a good run who like with who we did uh i had a um the first hit i had was primitive radio god no i remember that it's like listen to you like the first ad you you got what was you were sitting there and you told me you've got some unsolicited yeah it was an unsolicited came to the office and like I'm listening to it and the kids like oh like I sent that in years ago and I'm like oh shit I don't know what I'm doing so but then it became a giant hit with the bb king sample yeah with the bb king sample been downhearted baby

been downhearted baby right and that was you, I'm going to make this a hit. And that was the first time you did that. That was the first hit. And how did you do that? You just took the... Got it in the Cable Guy soundtrack. And from the Cable Guy soundtrack, it just took off. Like radio stations started playing it and then...

So you, the publishing, part of the publishing world, which I remember now that you were involved with was getting these smaller bands that, know had been around for a while these deals to just have their music on shows that wasn't because i know a guy who does that for my show that's still a route to go is that they because people don't want they don't have the money to pay for hits that's right from the history of music that's right because it's ridiculous right so there's all these hungry bands around that if you go you'll get residuals and they'll give you a ten thousand up front that's right yeah if you let them do it i'll put the song on the show so you got on the cable guy and then it became huge yeah and then it became a giant hit and then uh now you're a hit maker now i'm a hit maker so then

i i find this kid jive jones i put him with a writer to write for because somebody's developing a new girl and they need a girl song and they write candy i give it to mandy moore's a and r guy and it becomes a giant hit for mandy moore and launches her so and what's your cut on that uh we get 25 oh this is when you're still at the bmg building yeah this is in the bmg building so like things are going well in the bmg building yeah I'm doing these things for him. But then Napster hits. And when Napster hit, that's when I started. Because you were still in New York then.

Remember, I was like, oh, the internet's going to change everything. And you'll be able to make your own records and all this stuff. Right, you saw that coming. And then also, I remember there was a time where you were actively scouting i can't remember for what reason because you remember when cmj came yeah and there you know you'd always have all those records and you're always running around doing stuff you you weren't managing yet were you no that's when i was i was but i was like i had this thing in my head where i was going to be able to do it the way I would have done it as I was in a band. Like do it yourself, basically, because of the internet.

Okay, so that was around that time. Oh, I get it. So you saw this coming. Yeah, so when Napster hit, it just changed everything for me. It was like, oh my God, it's like the whole business is going to change. Broke open. Yeah. And at that time, was that when you developed the relationship with Don Arden?

I remember that was a big life changer. Yeah. That was crazy. I'm very glad that I didn't do anything with him because like- But how did that happen? Don Arden managed Black Sabbath. His daughter is Sharon Osbourne, but he also managed like Jerry Lewis and ELO. ELO, yeah.

Big, big British- Big, huge. Manager. Yeah. So- Old school. Big, big British manager. Old school. Very old school. Right. And at that time, he was probably past his...

Right, I remember that, because I don't remember how he reached out to you. What was that? Well, those guys, the older guys, like Seymour Stein and Don, they took a liking, when I started looking for bands and saying I was going to do things on the internet,

because there weren't very many people saying that at that time these these older guys that were really good at their thing were like this i don't know what the internet is but this kid's talking about something and maybe there's something there so they were looking to be part of it yeah so okay so so how does don arden reach out to you? Because I remember, didn't you go to London? Yeah. And hang out with him? Yeah. So Don came to me through a guy who worked at Sony named Greg McBowman. Yeah.

He was a business guy at Sony, but he knew Don. Yeah. Because Don had a deal with Sony, and he was like, oh, you should meet this young guy who likes the internet. So that's how. And what was your experience meeting him? Because I remember it was pretty impactful. Yeah. I mean, he was an amazing character.

Yeah. You know. What do you learn from him? You know, it's the same thing. It's sort of like if you create the character of what you, you know, again, like it's show business. You can make stuff happen. what you you know again like it's show business yeah you can make stuff happen you just you can't like everything like the idea of having records that are going to be huge is is a ridiculous idea yeah but it's not impossible right it's just improbable yeah so the difference between that

is what i learned from guys like don and seymour and chris is just like oh yeah like everyone's it's really an even playing field. Right. On what the song that's going to be the song of the summer is. Yeah. You just have to, like, get a song that you believe in and then try and will it, you know, figure out how to get it through. Right.

And that's what you learn from those guys. Yeah. You know, because the record business was started as like a street hustler business. Right. They're all street hustlers. Right. In the best of ways. And you were the guy that had the foresight to start to hustle the internet.

I was definitely early in that process. Certainly coming from an A&R angle. Other people were hustling the internet, but they were more looking at it in terms of security and stuff that was more businessy. Yeah. I was early on going like, this is going to be a new way to market things. So when did you become a manager? So at the end of the 90s, Chris was like, Chris that owned the BMG thing, he was like, I think I'm going to retire. I'll give you some money. He gave me like 30 grand or something, which at that time to me was a lot

of money. And he's like, you should start, you should do what you want to do with this internet thing. Like you don't need Don Arden or any of these guys, just do it yourself. It's like, you don't need any money. If what you're telling me is right, you don't need any money. And he was right. So that's how I started. I started with a little bit of money and an office in Soho and some interns. And I started looking for do-it-yourself people. And the first artist was still my my artist is one of my best friends

butch walker yeah and um he was just like me only way more talented yeah and i was like oh this is gonna be easy i know what to do with him yeah i'll just do what i would do with me he's a producer he he's an artist and he's a big producer he's done tay Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Avril Lavigne, Pink, like, you know, and also many other like cool things like Frank Turner and Brian Fallon and Weezer. So he's done a mix of all kinds of music. But when you met him, he was what? He was a singer-songwriter, which he still is.

But like in my mind, you know, thinking like how I would think for me, all these bands thought he was great. So I was like, oh, you should produce these bands. And it started out with small bands like Bowling for Soup and SR-71. And he had hits with those, which led to Simple Plan, which he had a hit with, which led to Avril, which led to Pink, which led to Katie. And now he's bigger than big. Yeah.

And so he was my first guy and really like a super, that was like, we can do this. Because he took a real chance on me because he had a record deal. I didn't have any clients. There was no reason to let me manage him but he believed my my hustle yeah and uh yeah we've had a we've had a really good run yeah and then and then who's the next client do you remember my friend pablo who's an anr guy with benji at columbia yep so pablo is he was he was a always a great anr guy he was always early on things. And he was like, you know, there's this kind of music called emo music. Yeah.

It's like kids really like it. Yeah. And it's all over the internet. Yeah. So I started, I was like, all right. So I started looking for things. So is anyone making money? Are CDs still selling at this point?

CDs are still selling okay there's no no one everyone's blind to the fact that that that part of the business is going to be obliterated right everybody's just like yeah whatever it's like a little fad that kids like but we don't care about right so i go i find these emo bands on mp3.com. There's a whole scene of them. And I sign a bunch of them. Because there's nobody in the music business doing it. And one of those bands is Fall Out Boy. And Fall Out Boy, if not for Fall Out Boy, I'm probably not a successful manager. Or certainly not as successful as I am.

Pete from Fall Out Boy is like a no joke marketing he's me but better yeah and uh he's no joke at marketing but he has that ambition that i had yeah and then he has a singer patrick who's so talented yeah and so we built this thing uh oh and one more key thing happens at that time. I always thought I needed a partner in my thing. Like somebody who was completely different than me. You didn't call me. I didn't get the call.

I don't think you would have been the right guy. I don't think you would have wanted to do it. That's probably right. And I met Bob McClinn, who is still my partner. And I was like, oh, I have this band, Fall Out Boy. Can you get them some tours and do that stuff and he carried them on his back and they became this giant he was their road manager no he was like i would say he was like he worked for me except i couldn't pay him because i had no money so right he was just like you know he had the right spirit he was like yeah whatever

i'll look after it yeah and then uh that's how we sort of built the company is we built that band or he really built them on tour. So you took these kids off the online world, you know, basically out of, you know, community boards or what was what would have been Reddit at the time and realized that they had a following of kids who were off the grid because they were now alienated from mainstream music and they had their own thing. And you realize at that time that the, the nuts and bolts of the game always were, but now more than ever was going to be touring. That's right. And merchandise.

Yeah. And, and, and really just like, but building community, like if you have fans and you have the right song and the right singer, That's right. And merchandise. Yeah. And really just like, but building community. Like if you have fans and you have the right song and the right singer, then you can be big.

Those are like the three things, right? Yeah. Because that's why when we finally reconnected, you're like, yeah, I'm huge. I mean, you didn't say that, but you were like, I got these huge bands, Fall Out Boy and Panic at the Disco. I'm like, who? So Pete found Panic at the Disco. Pete was like, yo, I found this other band, Panic at the disco i'm like who so pete found panic at the disco pete was like yo

i found this other band panic at the disco and it was like it sounds like you and he's like yeah they're cooler than me he's like just he's like we should sign them they'll be big and so we so pete was the a and r guy on that yeah basically yeah and so we bring sign panic at the disco we make a record for like 10 grand. And we hear the record. Bob and I hear the record. We're like, holy shit. Like, this will probably sell 50,000 records. We put the record out and it just goes batshit crazy.

Like, kids flip out. We ended up selling 3 million of the record we made for $10,000. So now the record company thinks you're a genius. Yeah. Yeah. So now it's like, okay, these guys guys we don't know what this emo thing is but these guys do and so we've got these

bands and they're like you know they're selling out Madison Square Garden sized places it's pretty nuts so at that time you've got Butch and these two bands we have a couple more of these kind of emo bands we have a hip hop one called Gym Class Heroes that Pete found that's also selling like massive hits same thing so that

was your wave so yeah so we're the kings of emo right so that we do that for like a few years now when do you start like you know using your experience and also your pop sensibility to guide these guys i mean what's that relationship that's that definitely started just as it gets better like the the more i do this the better i am with with artists but that that started from the from day one i think there's like a because both bob and i were in bands we can speak a. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense for people. Yeah. You know, for the bands. Right.

Oh, when they say, you know, if they go, hey, you might want to, like, repeat that part. Right. It comes from a sound place. Like, we need a hook. Yeah. Yeah. Or that's the hook. Put this song, it's a post-chorus.

Yeah. Right. Put this at the beginning. Right. Right. Yeah. So, like, we, that, we, I that we i mean there was you know there's a period where like in a three-week period both of them were on the cover of rolling stone so we're

just like riding a wave right and uh but and that scene was very much like you know it's a scene like seattle or the hairband scene i'm like you know i'm a i'm a paranoid jew so i'm like you know I'm a paranoid Jew so I'm like what happens when this ends like we're a really only emo so I start thinking like okay the record what do I know well you have now you have some cachet now I have some yeah but but it's still like it's very specific right so I'm like well what do I know about the record business what have i thought that's that i could do different in a contrarian way so i was like well the record business abandons artists before the public does yeah so if we could find some artists that were successful for a record fell Yeah. And just have one more hit, they'd be right back in it.

Right. And so that's when I met my friend Sam Hollander, who's a writer-producer who had worked with our bands, said, you should meet Pat from Train. Yeah. And I was like- I remember the first Train record. Yeah.

You remember Drops of Jupiter and Meet Virginia, and they were big. And then they had five years where they were not big. So I was like, you know, I don't know if Train goes with my stuff. He's like, you'll like Pat. He's very funny. He's very dark. Yeah.

And what I didn't know is he's also very ambitious and very talented. Yeah. So I meet Pat, and I like him because he's funny and dark. Yeah. And I'm like, all right, well, you know, he's like, well, you listen to my, you don't do bands like me. It's like, no, I don't. But he's like, well, would you listen to my songs? And he plays me.

I go, how many do you have? He goes, 80. I go, that's why I take him in it. But yeah. So we sit down and I'm listening to his songs and he's got these songs. He's got this one, Hey Soul Sister. I'm like, well, what's wrong with this? He's like, well, the label doesn't like it.

And the producer doesn't like it. I was like, all right, I'll be your manager. But my first two jobs are I'm going to fire the label and fire the producer. This song is a hit. And there was another song called Marry Me that I thought was a hit. And we make a record.

And Hey Soul Sister became the biggest hit. It was the biggest hit of the year that year. I think it sold like 9 million copies at this point. And now we've had like maybe 10 hits with Train. We have another one that just came out. And so that was like, oh, okay, I get how this is. And so that's how I met Sia. Same thing.

It's like, like well she had a career she never had a hit yeah but she had like a little indie career yeah she was in bad place and uh I didn't know if I could manage Sia because she wasn't pop yeah you know she wasn't what I knew and she was female and I know bands so I was like well I don't know if I'm the right manager for you but like I know how to get you out of the bad position you're in. Yeah. Because she was in a deal she didn't like, and she was miserable. She was just sick, and she thought she was an alcoholic.

And maybe she was or wasn't, I don't know, because I wasn't friends with her then. And we just became friends. And I was like, oh, my god like this girl is like the most talented person i've ever met i was like she can do pop music and so we started like figuring out how to do pop music and once she figured it out like you know she's no joke and she's also like i think she's one of the most successful pop writers in the game. Wow. It's maybe like the most successful female. Yeah. But one of the things that just happened to her this year,

which makes me like, it's money and numbers on a chart. They're just like measures of things. But what's super great about this one is she's one of the only women ever that's 40 years old that's had a number one record on her own. It's Cher, Madonna, and Sia. That's pretty like in a game where they tell you that you can't age women. That's pretty cool. That is cool. The thing about the company, and it really like, it really is like a team.

We manage like a band. I've got like 25 people that work there. Crush management? Crush management. All of them are, like, everyone there is so talented that I don't have to be a control freak. They do, you know, like Dan Kruchka, who runs marketing, is so much better than I am at marketing. Yeah. It's so great to have that.

Yeah. You know, and we have that, and we've got, you know, radio people. We've got this two guys, Eric does pop radio and Capone does alternative. They're like animals. Yeah. They just don't know. They won't stop until the records are hit. So it's awesome.

And you've got an office here in LA and in New York? New York and LA. It's all crazy. No London? No London yet. Don't tempt me. I always say, like, if I have a great song, my job is easy. And if I have a good song, my job's impossible.

Yeah. And it's really what it is. You have to keep raising the bar on yourself. Yeah. I mean, like, great artists, no matter what kind of artists, they're always in competition with themselves, right? Yeah. I think when you're, I think one of the things that both of us had when we were younger is

just like, we'd be in competition with others and we'd be envious of others. Right. But when you're really good you're just you drop right yeah you don't even think about it anymore yeah like i'm very surprised that happened to me you know i mean there's a couple that if you give me a minute i can i can get there pretty quickly but it's it's not guiding my disposition yeah yeah and when you can let go of that it really really helps the success. Well, right. But usually the only way you can let go of it, you know, without, you know, intense vigilance is if you find some success.

Yeah, sadly. That's right. I mean, you know, you can be consumed with that shit and it can kill you. Yeah. And it can end you. Yeah. If you're lucky enough to get a little success, it starts to ease up. That's right.

You know, but that's not a guarantee. The truth is, is like, it's great when your friends are successful. It's way better. It's like, you know, you brought me to a poker game. Right. It's definitely like- At Eddie Brill's? At Eddie Brill's.

Yeah. During like my lowest period when, you know, the Bells Ballsy days, we used to play poker with. Right. And pretty much everyone in that poker game is huge now. Jeff Ross. During my lowest period, the Bells Ballsy days, we used to play poker. Right. Pretty much everyone in that poker game is huge now. Jeff Ross. It was like, but Louie and Sarah Silverman and Dave Cross.

All of them became wildly successful. Right. And it's like- Long before me. So I didn't stay in the game long. You didn't play poker enough. I always lost. I was bad at it. But the thing is, the game long. You didn't play poker enough. I always lost. I was bad at it. But the thing is, it's like.

And Louie immortalized that game in his show. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. But it's just like, it's like having that is much more fun than if, you know, as a memory. Yeah. Than if I play poker with your friends and none of them got successful. Yeah, sure. I played poker with some comedians

yeah yeah right right now what happened to those guys story yeah yeah well yeah i mean there was you definitely got that feeling in whatever business you were in that you know it was a smaller world in a way back then certainly in comedy right uh you know and you just didn't think about you that that was the next generation that would become great and then really hold on to it. Now, getting into the current day, along the same lines that you took on Train, you've taken on Weezer and Courtney Love, kind of? Weezer, Courtney, yeah. The newest one we have is Lorde, which I'm super excited about. But she wasn't a husband.

No. newest one we have is lord which i'm super excited about she wasn't a husband no that's well that's what i'm that's why i'm saying the newest one because this is the first time anyone's given me something that was currently successful to work on so that's how that's exciting i if you ask her she'll say i was the only manager without a publicist. I think she just like, she met a bunch of people and, you know, and I think I was probably less. And what do you do for that, for her? The same, same things, you know, just like. You look ahead at the new record, you see where she's at and.

Yeah, just trying to like with her, it's been a lot of strategy of like, okay, she she was her record was so big like how do we roll this out how do we start it you know what festival should we play how do we position her on the bill to make the next record same level yeah right exactly and with courtney i know you did a record that you were very hands-on with so with Courtney uh Courtney said Courtney is always and will always be her own category yeah so with Courtney my friend Michael Beinhorn I told you about his producer yeah he's a genius producer yeah he called me up and he said you know can you help Courtney yeah and I was I was like I don't know like let me meet her. And she was in pretty bad shape. Right.

And we've become very friendly because, like you and I, she grew up in the 80s in that time. Yeah. She was dancing at Jumbo's Clown Room. Right. And hanging out with those bands. Like Celebrity Skin, the whole album came from Celebrity Skin, a band that I used to play with when I was in Electric Angels.

Yeah. So we have like a real common thread and she's super into music. Yeah. And I think she likes that I'm successful and so I don't need her. I'm not like a hanger on with her. Yeah. So we've been working on a book, which I think is going to be really good. And I'd love to make another record with her because she's in- What was that last one that you did with her?

Nobody's Daughter. Yeah. Yeah. You like that record? I do. She wasn't in retrospect. Yeah. I'm glad we made it because she had been trying to make it for eight years.

And just getting it finished was an accomplishment. But she wasn't in the right place. I think she's in a much better place now. She's awesome now. There's like good Courtney is awesome and bad Courtney is like the worst person alive. So now that she's good Courtney, she's what you signed up for. Now, getting more up to date, the last time we were out of touch for a while, you had a little health crisis.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And what happened? You know, it felt like a giant was standing on my shoulder. Yeah. And so, you know, I was like, I think I had never been in the hospital. Not since I was born. Yeah.

I was like, I think I need to go to the hospital. I go to the hospital and they're like, I think you might be having a heart attack. Holy shit. So it was like a minor artery was blocked. So it wasn't like a triple bypass surgery or anything. But, you know, so they put you out. It't pain it was pressure yeah weird it's like crazy pressure weird and so they put you out and it's really an interesting experience because they gave me i think it's nitroglycerin maybe and you just pass out immediately and you're sort of awake

but not really. And so people are yelling. Like a roofie. Yeah. I'm like, am I dead? Like people are yelling around me like, Lidia, I'm dying. And then you start thinking about things like, you know, like, what's going to happen to my air miles? You know, and you just go through all these like strange thoughts.

Yeah. It's really like an interesting process. None of them were like life flashing before your eyes. Did I do what I set out to do? None of that. You just go through all these like strange thoughts. Yeah. It's really like an interesting process. None of them were like life flashing before your eyes. Did I do what I set out to do? None of that? It's like air miles or who's going to feed the dog? Minutia, yeah.

It was all that kind of stuff. And what you realize is like- So it's not your life that flashes before your eyes. It's like what you have to do tomorrow. Yeah. Who's going to do that? Well, that's the thing. I was like, shit, I hope I can get out of here tomorrow because like see is doing a tv in la i need to be there that kind of stuff yeah yeah interesting definitely all that were you

afraid uh probably yeah so so they what they did put a stint? Put a stint in, yeah. I was there for a couple days. I definitely didn't like being in there. And so when I got out, I started reading about stuff. And actually- Because you're a vegetarian, lifelong vegetarian. Yeah, I was a lifelong vegetarian. So my friend Russ Irwin, who plays keyboards in Aerosmith, he's a great guy.

He said, oh, my brother had that. He's like, you got to become a vegan. You got to read this guy, Dean Ornish's book. I know Dean Ornish. This guy Caldwell asked us to read these books. And I started reading. And I realized that what happens when you're a vegetarian and not a vegan is you overcompensate by eating too much dairy, too many carbs, too much sugar. It's all the things that lead to heart disease. Interesting.

Yeah, so I just switched to being a vegan. It's been amazing. You look great. Oh, thanks. Took off some weight. Are you exercising now? Yeah, added exercise, stopped dairy, and it's been great.

I don't think everyone needs to do that. Right. But if you're unhealthy, you should do that because those are the, it's very obvious. Like when I go to my doctor for the checkup, every six months you go to the heart specialist, he's like, you should just be a poster boy. Whatever you're doing, like all the cholesterol

and all of the problems that you had when you came in are all gone yeah and it's it's because like when you're a vegetarian you overdo those things you just do because because you're not eating correctly right cheese yeah i would yeah sugar beans carbs yeah pasta and you do a little pasta i do a little but a very little yeah and you've been renee since i've known you so that's good yeah she's the best yeah and he like well i'm proud of you man it's very impressive yeah man i'm i'm very proud of you you're relieved no it's you know what i remember that when i saw you and i finally kind of got out like when the the show this show started to get successful you're like you did it you know what it is it's, you know what it is. I remember when I saw you and I finally kind of got it, like when the show, this show, started to get successful, you're like, you did it.

You know what it is? Well, you know how I knew it was successful? Is I would be places. Yeah. You know, like I remember, really like there's always like that moment, the apex, like the point of inflection. So I'm meeting with the head of Warner UK and I'm sitting in the waiting office and his assistant comes out.

She's like, are you the John Daniel that knows Marc Maron? I was like, wow. Sometimes I'll listen to you and you'll be talking to a band about me and I'll be like, hey, I'm right here. What's going on? No, you know what, like, you know what,

you know, like we were saying before, it's like having your friends be successful is awesome. Yeah. Like so many of our, you know, the bands, but also like the producers and things, they're all fans of you. And what's great about the way you did it is in its very punk rock it was like to be successful you can do it

by any means necessary or on your own terms right and you did it on your own terms and that's like that's punk rock yeah yeah it was not by any means necessary like this is a hail mary pass it's like it was a hail any means necessary. It was like, it was a Hail Mary pass. That's what's so awesome, though. It is. It's like it was a Hail Mary pass. I don't know anything about that any means necessary business. It got close. Well, thanks for talking, man.

All right, yeah. It's great to see you. And send me that record. All right. All right. All right. Good. That was great uh it's great you just it's great that you can if you if you're hung in there that you just witnessed me catching up with an old buddy and also learning things about him i've never known after knowing him for years and we used to talk all the time but then i started to realize back in the day i did most of the talking that guy was at my my first wedding anyways hope you like that thanks for listening

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