WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 784 - Steve Jones / Jed Maheu

Episode Date: February 8, 2017

If Steve Jones was going to start a band after a troubled upbringing filled with petty crime, it makes sense that the band wound up being the Sex Pistols. Steve takes Marc through the formation of the band, the rocket ride to the top and the just-as-fast dissolution, which led to Steve's descent into heroin addiction. Also, Marc's neighbor Jed Maheu of the Zig Zags stops by to premiere the band's new song. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckadelics? What the fucknics?

What's happening it's me mark maron this is my podcast wtf as you're hearing this i'm home as i'm recording it i'm not and there may have been even two days in between me saying what's coming out of my mouth and you hearing it so i'm not going to pretend to know what's going to happen. I'm just going to, and I've got two guests on the show, so I might just temper it a little bit because who the hell knows? Everything could be on fire by the time this goes up. We can only hope not.

Also, I would like you to, I hope you're all taking care of yourself. Could you do that for me? Don't stress eat. Don't fear eat. Don't eat out of existential terror. Don't treat yourself shitty. Don't relapse on alcohol.

Don't do more drugs. Stay focused. We got a long slog ahead of us, and it'd be good to take care of yourself. Let's not assume that we're just going to throw it all in the garbage let's let's like i'm i guess i'm i'm talking to myself out loud i've i've had to make tremendous concessions in the meat department i'm just trying to see if i can get my fucking cholesterol down i'm in kawaii it's my last couple of days here. It's been amazing. I looked at Waimea Canyon. I'll tell you the kind of traveler I am.

That's one of my favorite places to go on this island is to go up to Waimea. And did I tell you Steve Jones from the Sex Pistols is on the show? Did I mention that? I probably did not. Also, I got Jed Mayhew from the Zig Zags, who's a's a neighborhood kid stopped by he's got a new thing i'll tell you about in a second so anyways the drive from where we are to waimea is no small trek and the payoff is spectacular it really you know i always save it for towards the end of the vacation because the the red dirt and the depth and the beauty and the green smatterings and the waterfall and the clouds

and all of it going out to the ocean. The entire expanse of it is spectacular. And you drive right up to a lookout. You don't have to get into a helicopter. You don't have to do a major hike. You just have to get out of your car and walk up there. And it's the best. It's one of the most beautiful things in the world. So we got out and it was cloudy we had a little rain last night i'll be honest with you but we spent an hour and a half driving up there and before we left sarah said you know it's probably gonna be all cloudy up there probably not gonna be able to see anything i'm like no it won't it's gonna be fine shit just blows over so we drive an hour and a half up there i don't want to see my favorite thing and uh it was covered in clouds. You just went up to the lookout and you looked out and you just, it was like you were looking

into a cloud, nothing. And it was drizzling out and a little chilly, had not brought the proper attire. And I was quietly furious. I thought I was containing it because I was disappointed. So we got in the car and I said uh let's let's hang out let's just wait it out and we waited like 15 minutes nothing and then i got snotty and you know i said so i guess you were right are you trying to prove to me that you were right that was going to be cloudy like i like why do i got to be a dick sometimes? Why do vacations bring out the dick in us?

I guess it's just a matter of time spent. I don't know. I don't know what, maybe I'm a dick more than I assume that I am. But we did wait it out, and I wouldn't call it pouting. I would call it active waiting. Some of it was pleasant. You know, once I got through my little fucking, you know, childlike temper tantrum over nothing,

it looked like it was breaking up a little bit, and walked back up there by myself again not pouting taking a little space sarah waited in the car she had gone out to take her space we're doing that taking timeouts great it's healthy i went back up there and it was like the clouds started dissipating and it was like unfolding it was like it it was appearing it was almost like a a magic trick it's like the mist was was was sort of you know going away and and exposing this miraculous canyon then a rainbow formed over it and i was ecstatic because it was beautiful and uh and it wasn't cloudy up there all day it was totally worth the trip she was excited i was excited i shot a uh i what i think might be a major motion picture on my phone uh basically it's just uh about a woman looking at a canyon and her name's Sarah I'm just going to call it Sarah

in the canyon hour and a half for that on my phone but you know what phones now go right into the theater all right so let's get back to the garage again what you're hearing right now in your ears I said a couple days ago so I don't know where you. So I don't know where you're at. I don't know where the country's at. I don't know where the world's at. I know I was just at an Indian restaurant in Kauai, Hawaii. That's what I know for a fact. But this guy, this dude that I'm about to talk to, the Zig Zags, they're a band.

They live in my neighborhood. They're releasing a new single as a download and on vinyl. It's called Ripping Death with the B-side Riddle of Steel. And you can preorder it now at famousclass.com. So Jed, he reaches out to me and tells me about this. I got their records. They did a song with Iggy Pop. They were pretty punk, pretty hard.

Now they seem to be drifting a little into medley land which is fine but jed used to work at town pizza and i had a feud with town pizza because i'm a i'm an asshole it's a good pizza place right down the street from me but i decided when they first opened they need to work on their crust and and i didn't think they were so i baited them and i tweeted at them a picture of new york pizza it was a big it was a it was scandalous and now their pizza is tremendous and and i felt bad and i think i might have permanently pissed off one of the owners i don't know but uh i do recommend town pizza it's one of the only places you get a fresh slice you know like all the time right down the street highland park town pizza i'm just putting that out there, trying to make good, trying to... I'll talk to Jed about it. But this is me and Jed Mayhew of the Zig Zags in the garage.

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This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive.

FX's Shogun. A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. The first time I met you you the zigzags i met you before yeah but it was you were at the pizza place yeah i was at town you're working at town i was working at town i i was persona non grata for a while no i got a good story about that uh oh please because like let me tell you something man like i felt shitty about it i know and then you know the dude one of the owners yeah joram joram joram yeah joram like i'd done the like i said my piece about the crust and then

they did not really fix the crust in my mind and it was you know coming from new york uh like i was upset about it kind of but you know pizza's pizza and people seem to be enjoying it and there was part of me that thought people were being misled this pizza crust needs to be better and they have it within their power to do it they're already doing well and i made a comment on twitter where i i did you see the tweet oh yeah later but that's uh that's the whole story though but but so then i see joram yeah who i'd met and like i like local business i'm happy everyone's happy in the neighborhood but i ran into him at cafe de leche and he just gave me a stink eye that was like you're dead to me well you gotta understand when you're going in and you got all your stuff in a business yeah he's having a kid yeah old life is riding on this thing

he's got so much anxiety already yeah just opening the business oh yeah i know but then i corrected it i i know but i I was in there. So this is the thing. I was like the morning prep guy. Right. So I would come in before everyone else and prep all the ingredients. Yeah. And then cook all the pizzas and get them ready for the service when the doors open for lunch.

But I would always listen to WTF. Right. As I'm alone in this room making pizzas every morning. Yeah. And one day he comes in. It had happened the night before i wasn't aware of it you know tweet yeah and i'm hung over and i'm making pizzas yeah and he's just like turn that shit off like what what are you talking about he's like i can't listen to that right now i just

i can't deal with it you know i can't oh man it's like i gotta listen to something but then what happened was i you know i i revisited and uh i i made i i and I made a positive comment in the LA Times. Yes. And I think it's okay now. I think it's fine. And I got to say, I've been there myself. Anyone who knows me knows that I made a lot of those kinds of apologies too. But the pizza's fine.

Yeah, it's fine. They're doing good. Yeah, they're doing good. They're busy. But you used to be the guy out back smoking the cigarette right one of them yeah and i always felt like i i'm like i remember that i used to like standing out back with the restaurant i worked at smoking the cigarette you got to yeah that's what you look forward to yeah you get that five minutes smoke the cigarette and then you go back to the dough yeah and then when you're done you you and the rest of the people that work there they go down to johnny's and then some weird shit happens and then it's real uncomfortable the

next day at work you know that's that's where it goes that's the restaurant life well i you know i quit drinking so that part of it yeah i'm i'm out of the loop but uh the zigzags now you guys are on your third record uh well we're on the second full-length album that came out in may on a label here uh that's actually out at Eagle Rock called Castleface Records. But this single that's coming out that we're talking about today comes out next month on a label called Famous Class, which is out in New York. You say your name's Cajun? The last name, yeah. Well, that's the first name Jed could be considered.

Jed Mayhew? Yeah, Jedediah J. Mayhew. Yeah, that's not Southern at all. No, not at all. Did you grow up down there? My dad's. Mayhew. Yeah, that's not Southern at all. No, not at all. Did you grow up down there? My dad's from New Orleans. Yeah? And I grew up in, when he got out of the Army, he came back and ended up in Portland, Oregon.

Really? Yeah. So you're like an actual Portland kid? I'm born in Portland, Oregon, Clackamas, Oregon, which is- Clackamas. Clackamas. The shithole right outside of Portland. But I don't know if you ever know that band Dead Moon.

Uh-uh. I got a hippie to Dead Moon. That's like my favorite. My favorite band of all time happens to be from the same unknown shitty town that I'm from. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Yeah.

Clackamas Organ. What label were they on? They were on their own record label, Tombstone Records. They're a couple. The guy was a... What is it? Dead Moon? Yeah.

Fred Cole, who's the singer, started out as a teen idol in the 60s down here. Really? Doing Blue Eyed Soul. Uh-huh. And now him and his wife still troll around, play music. They're playing in Berlin the night before we get there. And they're in their late 60s. And they're the rawest, rockinest fuck.

like in their late 60s, and they're like the rawest, rockingest fuck. They record their albums themselves and cut the lathe themselves on the lathe that they cut Louie Louie on. Really? She bought the lathe for him for his birthday like 20 years ago. So they do small batches. Yeah, small batches. Artisanal batches of vinyl. And every record sounds different too because he's in there cutting the lathe,

smoking cigarettes and drinking whiskey. That's insane. Yeah, I got to get you some of that stuff. So growing up in Portland before it got hip, was that like... Oh, it was a shithole. Right, it wasn't like it, but was there at least some original colonizers up there? Was it a hippie hole? Was it like growing up in Humboldt or Bolinas?

Well, that's why they ended up there, because he was kind of trying to to get out of the draft and he went on tour with his band and he met her up there and i think you know that's kind of where my parents met uh through scientology up there yeah you know they stay in no no no no that's they got out immediately but uh but they met yeah that's i think a couple of lost people i think a lot of they were a lot of seekers you know at the time right sure yeah yeah yeah that's hilarious there were a lot of seekers, you know, at the time up there. Right, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's hilarious. Trying to get out of Babylon, you know. The early version.

Uh-huh. Like, yeah, Elrond was probably making the rounds himself then. He might have been, you know, he might have had the boat docked over there. Yeah, maybe. That's wild, dude. Yeah. So, like, it seems to me that this new single is, is it my imagination or is it actually heavier metal than the last couple?

It's getting heavier by the day. It is, right? Yeah. I think so. We're getting faster. We're getting heavier. Because I'm like, you know what I was thinking when I heard it? Like the B-side.

What's that one called? Riddle of Steel. Riddle of Steel. I'm thinking like, this is maiden. Yeah. We just shot a video for it in a vintage arcade over in Glendale. Really? Yeah.

It's a little Maiden-y, isn't it? It's totally Maiden-y. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm so glad I was able to call that. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Being married to a metalhead for a few years, the one thing I knew was Maiden.

Well, you know, that's the thing. It's in true Zig Zags fashion. It's like the first song, the A side is all about like, you know, war in the Middle East and, you know, all the shit going on. And then the B side is about Conan the Barbarian. There you go. Relevant and mythological. Exactly. But I noticed right away that like it's like you guys are going full metal.

Yeah, for sure. Because before it was sort of like, all right, this is psych rock. Yeah. And now we're heading into another zone. Exactly. Now, let's talk about that single you sent me a while back, the Iggy Pop thing. Right. How did that happen?

What was that song? That was a cover of Betty Davis. Oh, right, right, right. If I'm in luck, I might just get picked up. Yeah. And I think at the time, this is what I heard, is that Iggy was scheduled to do something with Light in the Attic Records.

Yep. And it fell through. Yeah. And he owed him a favor. He'd been paid already. Oh, really? I wonder what he was going to do with them. Were they going to do a new record?

Well, they were doing these things where they were taking new bands and older artists and putting them together and having them do a cover song. Okay. And so whatever originally he was supposed to do kind of fell through and then they uh asked us to to do that thing with him and of course we were just like fucking totally yeah honored to sure man you know yeah so we recorded the music here and then sent it down to miami and he did the

vocals there oh you didn't get to no hang out no he just got an ass i guess he can just do that just show up with that voice yeah so what kind of guitar are you playing dude i'm playing two now i got a jackson really yeah like a like a like a weird shaped one no it looks like a super strat they call it you know a new one uh it's from like 10 years ago or something like that it's like it's just like a pointy strat. And then I play a Charvel, uh, which was like the kind of original, like,

uh, what, like Eddie Van Halen used to play. Yeah. And what kind of, what's the amp? Uh, the amp is an old,

this is a good one. The amp is an old, uh, music man, uh, from the seventies. Yeah. Yeah.

And the guy I got that thing off of, I saw it on Craigslist. He wanted like 200 bucks for it. It was new old, like he, he had bought it on layaway for his punk band in detroit moved out here in 1978 got a job doing sound on commercials put the amp in the fucking closet never looked at it again and then when i needed it retubed i found this is the great thing about living in la or southern california when i need it retubed yeah they're like oh, I go down to Jack over here at Future Music.

Oh, Jack. I'm like, hey, who? He's like, oh, no one wants to work on those fucking things. He's like, I know the guy that used to work at the factory who built these amps. Here's his number. So I go down to Garden Grove. There's like this fucking morbidly obese guy surrounded with tubes and resistors and wire and shit.

He's like, like oh i remember this amp i built three of these for clapton on his 78 tour i'm like well there you go la man yeah only in la yeah he sent me over to some dude's house to get my guitar worked on wasn't the guy that used to play with dio or somebody yeah yeah um fuck i can't remember in la canada yes yes i know exactly who you're talking about he he was it dio it was it Dawkin? It was Dawkin, yeah, Dawkin, George Lynch's guy. He played with those guys over there. He's a nice guy. And, you know, he was in the house.

You go into the back, into the garage area, there's reptiles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's always reptiles. And just stacks of old amps and shit and a workbench and some guitars. Totally. Things half on part. The monitor lizard. Yeah, he had some sort of lizards. Totally. Things half on part. The monitor lizard. Yeah, he had some sort of lizards in there.

Yeah, ferrets. There's always guys with ferrets. Yeah, oh yeah. They're just like, what are you doing, man? But there's always that moment where they got a guitar and they're playing through your amp. Oh yeah. And they're like, sounds pretty good.

I'm like, it does sound good. Yeah, when you're playing it. Then they hand you the guitar. And like, I can play okay. But then you have that back and forth cock fight, which is always one round with me. You know,

I'll do my dinky blues riff and then he takes it back and his fingers are going in areas I don't even know how he's doing it. You're like, how'd you get reverb? Like, it doesn't even have reverb.

Yeah, what are you doing? It's just a technique. Oh, fuck yeah. But he's a good guy and that future music is sort of like,

it's classic, man. Oh, it's the hub. We got our music is sort of like it's classic oh it's the hub we got our drum set from there and it was this total thing where it was just like you know it was like a consignment deal you know but jack's just like all right just take it yeah pay me later i'll talk to the guy yeah it's just like you need those fucking people man when you're just like right and that's the way it used to be yeah it yeah exactly he's like you know we can pay card or you know if you give me cash you know like you needed to go between totally the guy that was sort of like you know that he was the hub of like people with different sorts of you know kind of pieces of equipment or sure in trouble yeah it needed to move shit he just lets me take stuff

and like try it out and bring it back you know it like... It's good. It's not... Yeah, it's different. And it's good because now that this area has become such a music hub. Yeah. Because what? Dwyer's here. You guys are here. Ty's here. Is Kyle still here?

Kyle's here, yeah. Yeah? Yeah. King Tuff. Yeah, all those guys. I don't know where Michael Cronin is somewhere, but he's with Ty. I think he's on the other side. Yeah, he's somewhere around here.

I think he's here. Yeah. And then the guy who does Austin, you know Austin Hooks? No. This is a little highbrow. We're getting a little out of the gutter. No, I know. We're getting a little out of the psych.

I like to keep it dumb, so, you know. We're getting a little out of the psych rock world into Austin Hooks, who guts these old projector heads. Okay, cool. And he makes cabinets for Dawes. Oh, nice. Yeah, I was just hanging out with one of the guys from Dawes last night. Yeah, and Blake Mills.

Okay, yeah. He's Blake Mills' amp guy. Gotcha. So he's a real analog nerd. Sure, sure, sure. And I don't know if he knows I still have this thing. This was the prototype, and he said, just keep it here because I don't want to sell it. Right.

And I'm like, all right. Yeah. I don't even know how to work it, really. I got a couple of those things, too. I'm holding it for him. Yeah. All right, dude. So the single how to work it really but i've had a couple of those things i'm holding it for him yeah all right dude so the single how's it how's it work now so you're gonna you're gonna put it out on on vinyl and i saw the cover art yep it's uh what is it someone ripping apart it's like our version of eddie like iron maiden's eddie we have randy okay who was my babysitter when i lived in the trailer park in Clackamas. It was like

this red-headed mullet guy who would like take me down to like this place called High Rocks which was like you jumped into the river and they would all smoke dope and these girls would come down and I'd be like, What's going on? This is grown-up land. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Randy was my babysitter so when I needed a

mascot, named him Randy. He's our version of eddie he's a skull faced hesher you know yeah loser yeah whatever so the image is him with the jackson guitar with saw blades on it sawing through donald trump's face there you go political political action and the and the record comes on a spray orange tan colored vinyl there you go yeah you're doing something that ought to do it. I don't know. That's going to save us, Jed. I think you really struck a blow.

It really went out on a limb there, you know. It was either that or play the inauguration. Oh, yeah. You turned that down. Yeah, we turned that down immediately. Where can they get it? You're going to be able to get it on famousclass.com. The pre-orders are going to go up whenever this is airing. And we're doing a record release show at the Resident downtown here on February 16th.

And we'll have the records with us then. Oh, so we just promote everything. How's the European tour? Let's push that. Yeah, that starts March 1st. Yeah. We get into Berlin. And I think the first show is in Würzburg.

Yeah. Which the last time we played there was at a 500-year-old women's prison. Really? Yeah. Still working? No, it's a club now. Oh, okay.

I didn't know if they split it up. Well, yeah, they wheel them out in cages while you play, you know. I thought it might be like some sort of work program. It's witches. Yeah. Oh, man. And then where do you go?

You go to Germany and... We go all over Germany. We go to France. We go to Italy. go all over Germany. We go to France. We go to Italy. We go to Austria. We go to Sweden. We go to the UK. We're going to Dublin, Ireland, which I'm really excited about.

I love Dublin. Where are you playing there? I don't even know. Oh. But I'm excited. Dublin's great. I've never been there. I'm excited to go.

It's great. Yeah. It's a great city. Yeah. Pretty. I can imagine. And how's your following in Europe? We've been over there once, and it did pretty good.

We played some festivals and stuff, and we played a lot of small club shows. But it's like some kid drove five hours from another country to see you, and it's just amazing. All right, so if people don't know you, let's lay into this track now. I don't usually set up tracks. No? No.

Can we play the B-side? Yeah, you can play whatever you want. What's the name of the song again? Riddle of Steel. Alright, thanks for talking, Jed. This is Zig Zag's Riddle of Steel. Thanks for having me, Mark. There was a time, boy, when I searched for steel. And steel meant more

than even gold or jewels. The Riddle of Steel. Yes. A riddle Of steel Yes You know what it is, don't you, boy? Shall I tell you? Cynhyrchu'r cyfnodau a'r ffordd y byddwch chi'n gwneud. To be free at night We hide We take What we need The fire The wind

It comes From the sky And I Will be The answer The answer to the riddle of the deal To train the head To kill the enemy

The man To follow the road-duty enemies of man To follow roads of ancient tale Gears! Gears! Stars are running out Watch the bombs are throwing down The will! Fight! Stay! We're not To be free at night

We are, we take what we need The fire, the wind, it comes from the giant eye We'll be the answer The answer to the Riddle of Steel, the B-side on the Ripping Death single by the Zig Zags. It's available February 24th. You can pre-order it now from famous class records at famousclass.com they're donating a portion of sales to planned parenthood you can

also check the zigzags out at zigzags.bandcamp.com there's a good guy he's a good he used to work down at the pizza place over there okay all right so let's talk to a sex pistol. I'll be honest with you. This is between us. I've had a couple opportunities to talk to John Lydon, and I didn't. I just didn't. But Steve Jones, I was happy to talk to Steve Jones.

I've done Steve Jones' show. He's got Jones' jukebox out here in Los Angeles. And he's got this new memoir out, Lonely Boy, Tales of a Sex Pistol. It's available now wherever you get books. This is me and an original sex pistol talking about music and drugs and life. You know know that stuff what do you think of jethro tull i actually never liked him back in the day right but i actually like him now it's it's something weird is happening to me around Jethro Tull.

You're changing too? Well, one of the first records I had was that Aqualung record. And it wasn't bad. But what was really annoying about him was the get up and the flute and the ridiculous dancing. The tights. The tights, yeah. You listen to the music. Some of it rocks pretty hard.

Yeah. So I don't know, like when I talk to people who grew up in England, I need to hear about it because, you know, I don't really know much about England in terms of, I can only learn from people. Yeah. I don't spend a lot of time there. Yeah. So where did you grow up?

West London. So right in the city. Yeah. Yeah. So right in the city. Yeah. Not, not in the, when you say the city. Yeah.

The city, the city could mean like right where Piccadilly circus is. Sure. That's like the inner. No, that's the inner city. Okay. And it's all comes out, spreads out around that. Yeah. So there's no like downtown. Right.

Where you head downtown. Yeah. And then it pushes out and I'm kind of like west of all that, a place called Hammersmith, this place called the Hammersmith Odeon. Back in the day, it was called the Hammersmith Odeon. Now it's called the Hammersmith Apollo by the Hammersmith Flyover.

All the bands play there who come into town, if you're at that level, like 5,000 seats. Yeah, yeah, I've heard of that, yeah. It's a famous place. Bowie's last show was there where he did his farewell to Ziggy Stardust. Oh, really? He shedded the persona.

Yeah, and that was the one where I stole all of his equipment. That's a true story. Yeah. Well, you think I made it up? No, I didn't think you made it up. I thought it was a rumor. No, so, oh, man.

Were you with the Sex Pistols already? No, no, no. This was prior to any band. I might have been messing about with Cookie at this point, but nothing serious has happened. Is he still around? Yeah. And you guys are still pals?

Oh, he's my oldest friend. I've known him since I was 10. We're still good buddies. That's a beautiful thing, isn't it? It is. It is when you've got a couple of pals like that. Yeah, yeah. It's the best.

So did you go to the show, the Bowie show? Yeah. I didn't realize that they were doing two nights. Yeah. And I didn't realize what recording meant at this stage. So we watched the show. Everyone's screaming. It's great we watched the show everyone's screaming it's great all the young girls are screaming and it's a typical as ziggy ziggy stardust spiders from

mards concert what's this 70 what 72 73 yeah i believe somewhere in there the show ends i know this place like the back of my hand hammer smith odian why because i i live around the corner and i used to get no ways to get in to see every concert i saw mott the hoop all there i saw bob marley there i saw queen i saw everybody there you saw them at the peak of their careers or right before they peaked probably yeah it's 5 000 cedar yeah first tour stuff yeah i guess so in mott the hoop well they started there, right? In UK, right? Yeah.

So you were the glam guys. You like the glam guys? That was my thing. Yeah? Roxy Music, David Bowie, The Faces. Bolan. Bolan, Rod Stewart and The Faces. Faces isn't really glam.

That's good. Just a rock. Oh, folksy, right? Yeah, it's a bit more bluesy, I suppose. But they looked the part. They could have fitted in. The hair. Satin pants and that lovely head I could never get. What a great band they were, huh?

Oh, they were fantastic. You saw them live a few times? Oh, all the time. Yeah? I was obsessed with Rod Stewart. You were? I really was. There was a combination.

In a good way? Oh, yeah. Yeah? It was the voice. It was the haircut. The hair. And it was the songs. Yeah. I had all of Oh, yeah. Yeah? It was the voice. It was the haircut. The hair. And it was the songs. Yeah.

I had all of his solo albums. Yeah. And then all the Faces albums. At some point, did Rod Stewart, did you turn on him or you stayed with him all the way through? I didn't turn on him, but I went off him when he came to America and he got all poncy. Poncy, that's the word. When he kept with his Brit Ecklund i think she punts him up a bit because like at some point you know this guy had like one of the most unique and

greatest voices in rock and roll and then right around i don't remember when when it happened but i think it was like the blondes have more fun single uh or some one of those atlantic crossing yeah something happened where it's just sort of like, nah. It stopped. It stopped being cool. He became a perfume punts. Yeah, something. Yeah, it just wasn't good.

Yeah. And the voice didn't change. Just didn't like him anymore. No, he had a different band. Yeah. That was trying to be the Faces. But when you're a real Faces fan like me, it wasn't the same. All right, so you know the place you go you go watch you see bowie the show ends i hang around yeah um how old are you like 15 yeah yeah

i borrow someone's minivan um me and another guy he's dead now we we we got in there about two in the morning there's no one in there they got a roadie asleep in the fifth row the light the house lights are on the lights aren't uh house lights are on the stage yeah so it's kind of surreal it's so quiet in there this guy's snoring are they packing up shit there's no everyone's gone it's just two in the morning so they're gonna pick it up the next day they're playing tomorrow oh the day before doing two nights got it all right i get it yeah yeah so all the gears set up yeah this guy's snoring yeah i sneak in with my uh wire cutters i proceed to go on the stage and cut all these beautiful mics i didn't realize they

were for recording yeah these fantastic neumann mics yeah yeah i get them i take the cymbals the drum why didn't you just unplug them what you cut everything for because i'm an idiot i didn't know what i was doing you know what i mean you just made them useless well the wires were useless yeah oh that's right they're just you can unplug the cable right unplug them like yeah um got the bass head yeah it was a sun amp uh it was a sun set up one of them new solid state yeah it was a big deal back then still didn't know what it was right it was the bass player's head loaded it all up in the minivan no guitars no guitars but the the crown jewel was Bowie's microphone. It was this little tiny Electra voice.

You can see it because they filmed it with lipstick all on the edge of it, on the end of it. You got it. I got it, but I don't have it. What happened to it? Who knows? He sold it. I became a junkie. Junkies don't keep anything.

Moves around. Someone's got it. So that was the movie, Ziggy? That was the Ziggy movie? Yeah. That full concert? Yeah. That was done at Hammersmith?

Yeah. And you got that mic? Yeah. Were you a junkie already? No. I was 15. I didn't start doing dope until after the Pistols when I was 22. So what do you, when you grow up, what kind of life you live in?

Who are you living with? What's your folks do? What happens grow up like you like what kind of life you live in what what who are you living with what's your folks do what what happens i had how'd you become this i become this because i had a rotten upbringing of course you know the abusive stepfather oh really he molested me when i was 10 is that true of course it's true why you keep asking me things are true you think i'm making this no no of course not i don't know why because you seem like such a solid dude well that was a long time ago so like one time it happened oh yeah he made me he made me pull his thing uh-huh when my mom was in hospital oh jesus attempting i believe to have a baby but she had a miscarriage and i think it was more of a power trip he never liked me this guy yeah I didn't like him yeah but

what it did was it really changed everything because I didn't want to go home anymore how old were you about 10 yeah I didn't know how to deal with this yeah I thought I'd done something wrong and and after that time I just completely turned into a kleptomaniac a peeping tom um just i couldn't sit still where'd you where did you leave the house did you move i stayed there till uh till i was about 14 and he was also physically abusive not not i had one fight with him at the end oh but he didn't he just he just used his his size which is which uh you know at the time it was very intimidating he was always intimidating me did you tell your mom i told my mom in a letter a lot later but she i got the old denial letter back saying that didn't happen what

you're talking about blah blah blah oh really yeah so that sent you spiraling into a life of uh petty crime yes um that seems to have become that became real crime yeah i mean it was all most of it was juvenile i had 13 arrests as a juvenile where was the real dad he was up he was in uh mansion um not in him after he left my, when I don't remember, somewhere in between nowhere and one. Yeah. He split. He moved to Nottingham.

He got married, had two boys and two girls. So you got four half-brothers and sisters. Yeah. And what did he do? He just split. What was his job? Did you build a relationship with that guy? I met him in 2008.

Oh, it took that long? It took that long. And I went over to England to do a tour, like 30 shows. With which band? Sex Pistols. Yeah. You know, reunion nonsense. And then in that time, my friend of mine helped me track him down.

Anyway, I got on a train to Nottingham. I met him at the train station. Yeah. And we went to a cafe around the corner and bullshitted for a couple of hours. And that was the end of that. And then a couple of phone calls a couple of months later, and that was it. It was good to see him, though. Did you see the resemblance and everything?

Yeah, and his voice is exactly the same really and this is this is really weird i don't know if there's a connection or it's just a coincidence he was a lorry driver yeah a truck driver yeah and i love to drive i learned when i was like 13 years old got a nice truck out there yeah yeah um what is that thing? It's a Dodge Ram 1500. Big car. Big car. I almost smashed it. Coming here?

In the rain. On my life, I had one of them moments, you know, where it all slows down. Sure. In your head. It's going to happen. I'm just coming along the 118, because I came up to the 118 to the 210. I came around the top way. And it was like a scene out of Chips.

You know, they always used to shoot Chips. Yeah. Up there, the original Chips. Yeah. Where you see the extras cars going like 10 miles an hour. And all of a sudden, I just must have went over a bump. And I literally lost control. If there was no other cars around, i would have i would have been history

it was the weirdest thing did you slide was it because of the rain or was it didn't slide it kind of went it what's that when it goes swivels swiveled yeah i hit something yeah a pot or something yeah it was scary man it got my attention yeah got woke you up oh man got that pulled you right into the present it really did got you out of your head steve it got me out of my head and it got me to slow down too so you met your old man in uh and that you didn't you didn't really contact him after that what about the other brothers and sisters ever no never met them not not compelled i don't think he had any desire to open up that can of worms

which i understand yeah i don't really want to yeah i don't really want a relationship sure they probably know who you are well he's probably told him i don't think he knew who i was originally though really when you when you first met him or early on early on yeah before when he split i don't think he knew anything about my uh up in the Sex Pistols or anything. So how does that happen? When do you start playing guitar? I started playing guitar about three months after I got kind of moved over to guitar. I was singing first.

With another band? No, with the Sex Pistols. It was Cookie. Yeah. Glenn Matlock, who was your original player yeah yeah and then wally nightingale who was the original guitar player he was ugly yeah i was the singer originally we don't we did one show it was awful that was your you came up with the name no malcolm mclaren did see like what I've got to figure out how that all comes together,

because who did I talk to in here? Chrissy Hind. Yeah. She was around. Yeah. Yeah. Totally around. And working for Malcolm?

She was working in the shop, yeah, Let It Rock. And that was on Kings Road? Yeah. Now, when did that, like, start to turn? Because you're growing up, you're seeing Bowie, right? And I think I talked to Dolby, right? What's that guy's name? Thomas Dolby.

Thomas Dolby, yeah. Because he was running around at that time, too. I've talked to a couple cats from your generation. And I talked to older guys who were in Britain, like Lemmy. They were going to see Fleetwood mac and the beatles and you know that stuff but chrissy hines said that when johnny thunders and the heartbreakers came to england yeah that changed the whole game is that possible uh i don't know about change the whole game everyone started doing smack that's what that started so it wasn't a music thing it was like ah heroin is how you know i'm gonna give funders credit man i was a massive new york dolls fan right you know their first and hell of a sound that guitar huh it was just yeah it was good it was it was chaotic it was like real

rock and roll and it and that was one of the albums that helped me learn how to play guitar because when i got shoved on guitar yeah i bet i didn't really know any guitar so we got rid of wally i've took wally's place we did an audition we got john in the band then it was like time to stop messing around and what how i learned to play guitar was i would take these black little black beauties yeah and that would give me the focus because i i had that thing you know the ad ad yeah couldn't focus five minutes sure a little speed doesn't hurt a little space speed zooms you're right in there yeah and that was that really helped me and you locked in enough to figure out how to play those three chords or so yeah they was all this it was all the same call it was a matter of moving the arm up and down the fretboard yeah yeah that was basically it you know but what was

it like the shop the the malcolm mclaren shopping moment was it seems like he that there was an orchestration of a scene happening malcolm's shop was like the hate asbury of punk right it was like the the place yeah everything all the, everything stuck together from revolved around that shot. And what were you fighting against? What was being pushed out? What music was sort of like, well, fuck this? The changing of the guard. Yeah, I don't think I was one of them people who said, fuck this.

Yeah. I just wanted to get laid and be in a rock and roll band. Right. That was someone else who was saying all that. But do you remember what music was popular at the time that people were reacting against? I mean, what wave was crashing? Well, it was the pump of the band Yes and- Oh, right.

The prog. Jeff Rotol. Yeah. Zeppelin, if you will. Yeah. Unapproachable bands. Right. Prog rock dominance. Yeah. Steve Hillelin, if you will. Yeah. Unapproachable bands. Right. Prog rock dominance.

Yeah. Steve Hillage. Right. I'm getting deep now. No, no, it's good. Steve Hillage. Tangerine Dream. Yeah.

But looking back on it now, I look at them bands and I think they're kind of punk too. A little bit. They're not looking for any single. They don't give a shit about anybody else. They're kind of just doing their thing. Yeah, they'll play a whole song. One side, two songs. Yeah.

They must have been doing speed, too. They were something. So that was it. There were these almost mythic bands around that played with mythological and renaissance characters and little universes to create this sound, and you guys brought it back down to the people. We brought it back down. I think a lot of it was because technical ability

and a bit of anger in there. Right. You're young. But I don't think we set out to get rid of all these old fart bands. We was just the next wave, and we just come along and came along at the right time. Right. And John wrote fantastic lyrics.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. And the music was, was cool. Now with, with Malcolm. So he would just create an environment where everyone hung around.

He had his shop. It was him and Vivian Westwood. And it was a clothing most week it was a clothing shop but they had a jukebox in there they had a couch yeah you can hang in there yeah you know and he he he was drawn to me i went in there way before the pistols uh started and i became friends with him and he used to show me uh all these i hung around with him i would drive him up the west end of london yeah because he couldn't drive i would drive viv's minivan mini and buy material for him to to make uh stuff up so they were making all the plaid skirts and the belts and the no at this point no at this point

they were just doing um um teddy boy stuff okay which in england is a little different it was the same kind of music you know jerry lee lewis uh right but in England is a little different. It was the same kind of music, you know, Jerry Lee Lewis. Right. But the look was a bit different. They had this thing, all these guys called Teddy Boyz. It was called like the Edwardian looking thing where they'd have the big draped coats. Yeah. Drain pipes.

Yeah. Winkle picker shoes. Right. Similar. Yeah. But a little bit different than the States. Yeah, there was a pretty aggressive rockabilly thing going on too, right? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. That stuff is, that plays a lot into punk, I think. Well, the second wave. Yeah. Like when we came up. Yeah. They didn't like us, the punks. They thought we were taking the piss out of them, the Teddy Boys.

Oh, the Teddy Boys didn't like you? No. There was a schism, a divide. So McLaren takes a liking for you, driving Vivian's van around. Driving her Mini around. In return, he took me out at night and showed me the nightlife

that I was never hip to. I was like a young guy who used to go to football matches and was... And steal things. Yeah, that was my thing. And he showed me a whole nother side he would take me to this club called the speakeasy he knew all the rock and rollers so you're like this feral

working class kid yeah that he's like i'm gonna i'm gonna show this guy i guess so because he's he's he's a bit off he's a bit off too yeah malcolm you know he likes the underworld characters oh yeah he's not into the straight the straight people the cray brothers around then yeah in the 60s early 60s yeah i think some of it was still going on but it wasn't right it wasn't big it wasn't dominating the uh the tabloids at that point yeah so you're going around you're seeing who what are you doing what are you learning i'm just learning another side of, the avant-garde side of life that I was really drawn to. The art side of life in some way.

Yeah, just people who, you know, just different, like the studio, like the Andy Warhol side. Right. The English version of that. There was a few shops. There was another one called Granny Takes a Trip. Yeah. That they sold a lot of them velvet suits with the rhinestones. Oh, yeah.

Cool stuff that I went in there a bunch of times. Did you buy stuff? I didn't buy anything. And they were all in the back shooting dope. Yeah. So you could literally walk in there and walk out. I'm like, where are these guys? There's never anyone in here

i didn't know what dope was at the time yeah but i didn't i just you know help myself it's great what were you doing just drinking and taking speed yeah so you start learning to play guitar because you got rid of the guitar player yeah and then is that when and malcolm is producing you at that point to begin with no he talked you into the band or you had the band we had the band yeah because glenn matlock worked in the shop yeah on a saturdays and he knew how to play bass he he knew how to play bass so there's another connection yeah because he worked in malcolm shop okay and he was a bass player yeah and he was a fan of the faces yeah it made it perfect sense to start a band with me cookie and him and this guy wally well

we're how does uh how does paul play into all that well he was he was my you know you guys just hung out together we were my hung out i stole him a drum kit from who which band i don't fucking know there was so many set it up in his mom's bedroom yeah and he learned how to play a little bit in there. Yeah. No training, just listening to records. Just crash, bang, wallop, yeah. Yeah. And all right, so you decided to start the band.

Yeah. And Malcolm is, what is his role initially? He just came to rehearsals here and there. He weren't really into it. He obviously saw, did it add a long way to go he had nothing to do with the music by the way i just want to get that clear from the beginning to the end he had no input as far as songs he was he was more on the fashion side you know and other little stunts but um but he did say he said, you've got to get rid of that guy, Wally. It's not happening.

And after we did the one show, I realized that I didn't want to be the singer. Yeah. I don't like it when everyone stares at me. Yeah. I'd rather be kind of people looking at you, but you're not the main focus. Yeah, yeah. So it kind of worked out as it was meant to be, you know. Yeah.

How did he take it? Wally? Yeah. He wasn't happy no uh and his dad had this rehearsal place where we used to rehearse for months for free yeah this bbc studio his dad had the contract to do the electric electric electrician work there yeah and it never got done and it was right down by hammersmith bridge by the river so we could rehearse in there all day long all night in this beautiful soundtrack yeah soundproof beautiful bbc place yeah yeah and you lost that when you got wood exactly and then where'd you go it was uh it was not good for a little while we had to like rent a van go to some horrible damn rehearsal place set up fuck about for a couple of hours take it all down in the van

right take it back take the rental van back it was a nightmare and malcolm um put an ad uh he saw an ad um at the rehearsal storage place, Denmark Street, Tin Pan Alley. And it belonged to the tour manager of the band Badfinger. Oh, yeah, sure. And we got it. And this was right central London, Tin Pan Alley. Yeah.

And it had an upstairs with a little sink, an outside toilet, and we could rehearse downstairs. So we lucked out so well. Where was Badfinger? They were done. Two of them committed suicide. Didn't end well, yeah. It was done.

And I lived upstairs. This is the first time I've had my own place. Upstairs in the same building as the rehearsal space? Yeah. Oh, great. Right in the center of London. Yeah. It was a dream come true.

Who'd you live with? Just you? Just me. Ah. And whatever chick would stay over. Yeah. Or not even stay over. I prefer them to split.

Yeah. So when does Lydon come in? He's in at this point. Yeah? How does that happen? How do you meet him? It happened. We put an ad in a paper.

He meets us down at Malcolm's shop. Yeah. One night. Again, he'd been in there too, you know, randomly. Yeah. And he shows up, he's a bit nervous, we're nervous. We go around the corner to this pub on King's Road called the Roebuck. We have a few pints, we're getting a bit nervous. We're nervous. We go around the corner to this pub on King's Road called the Roebuck. We have a few pints.

We're getting a bit loose. And we say, well, come on then. Let's go back to the shop and sing along with the jukebox. And he does that. And we pressed a number, an 18 by Alice Cooper come up. Yeah. And we said, go on. Sing along to that i mean it's bit hard and he didn't he just fucked about john he didn't take it seriously and i got annoyed with

him yeah because he wasn't trying right but in hindsight he did exactly the right thing just doing that johnny wright and think that he just he was just goofing around man and i didn't like him for that because i thought he wasn't serious yeah and then i noticed his teeth were all grain green i said your fucking teeth are rotten mate and and that stuck the name thing stuck all that night and and that's when we started uh rehearsing that was prior to denmark street tim pannellyey. That was a couple of months before that. So by the time you got over there, you guys are, you're at it. We're at it.

With Matlock. We're at it. All the magic was written in that little place where I ended up living. So when does Malcolm start suiting you up? The clothes? Yeah. Well, from the back. Yeah.

You know, John kind of had that look prior to malcolm yeah i think everyone was inspired by it and that's when that's when that's when let it rock stopped and it became sex right that was the name of the shop in big pink letters and did he change the uh inventory did the... Inventory totally changed. To what was it then? Bondage tops, bondage pants. Right, the collars and shit. A lot of fascist stuff, a lot of Karl Marx stuff, shirts with Karl Marx on it. Yeah.

Just shock value. Yeah. You know. It worked, though. Swastikas. Sure. All that stuff. Was there a skinhead movement yet?

The skinhead movement, which I was, was in the middle 60s. The original skinheads. Yeah. When I was like 10 or 11. Oh, yeah? That was the original skinhead. You had the mods. And the mods, which was the who and all that. Yeah.

Small faces. Kinks. Mm-hmm. That ended, and that's when the skinhead started that lasted a few years fizzled out but then after the sex pistols started this next wave oi these oi bands came around just after the pistols that's when it got all weird and and um national front and- Violent. You know, kind of racist.

Yeah. If you will, you know. The original skinheads weren't? I had a lot of black friends who I went to school with. We were all skinheads. All we used to do was go to youth clubs and go to football matches. There was no music involved? Yeah.

Yeah? What was the music? Blue Beat. Yeah. Tamela Motown. Soul. Right. That was the music. some of the ska stuff yeah

not so much scar but i guess early scar the original prince buster and all that stuff that came in later too after the pistols right yeah the whole the scar specials right that was when i was i think that was happening in 1980 1981 right yeah madness yeah. One step beyond. All right, so now you've got an outfit. You've got a band that's functioning. You guys are playing out now? After about three months of me playing guitar and rehearsing, we did our first show around the corner at St. Martin's Art College. It was literally around the corner.

We walked around there and took our gear around there. Glenn Matlock went to that school. Yeah. He got the gig. Yeah. And we opened up for a band called Bazooka Joe. It was no stage. It was just a room, a small room.

The bass player, funny enough, was Adam Ant in Bazooka Joe. Oh, really? We went on. I was terrified like I always was when it came time to be in front of people so i took a couple of mandrakes yeah uh american quaalude yeah yeah and uh best drug ever that's what i hear oh tingly feelings we have a couple of pints and we got on stage we started doing did you know wrong and i look over at rotten i'm like this is the best I started doing Did You Know Wrong, and I look over at Rotten.

I'm like, this is the best fucking thing ever. You're just at that moment, you know, where it all seemed to gel. Yeah. And it's like Coke. You search for that moment forever after. It never is. That first one. Yeah.

So that was it. And the plug got pulled after about three songs. Really? Because we were very loud. Yeah. We just didn't know. Yeah. We just didn't know what we were doing what was the what was the song list um a few covers uh uh uh no lip don't give me no

lip it's a dave berry song yeah i think we i think we did a small faces song did you know wrong was an original yeah uh i don't think there was a lot of originals at that stage of the game yeah yeah you know right we used to do a lot of covers did you do roadrunner then no that came a little bit later it's a good song you know what that album is fantastic which one the modern lovers album yeah it's great i didn't realize that came out way before yeah anything came out it was what was it 1972 yeah oh it's great the uh i love old world and astral plane yeah and uh oh yeah uh she cracked yeah uh she's cracked it's fantastic great yeah he was a special guy that guy pablo picasso was never called an asshole yeah not in new york yeah that that was that was

that was a great album i'm glad we did a version that we used to we play it when we play live we always do that song roadrunner yeah all right so you had that magic moment and and then you get you get unplugged and then how does it how does it become a phenomenon? What happens? How does Matlock go away and Sid come in? Well, that was a while after that. So you guys played a lot around town? We played a lot up north of England, various places, strip clubs, avant-garde kind of art parties. Is the metal thing happening now too?

Is Lemmy doing that yet? I'm not sure. It could have been still Hulkwind at this point. Okay, yeah. I'm not sure the dates. I mean, I knew Lemmy. Yeah. I used to buy speed off him down Portobello Road.

Sounds like he was the guy with the speed. He was the man to go to. Yeah. He was the man to go to. I love Lemmy, man. Yeah. I love him. I think we did one of his last interviews

in here yeah yeah he didn't look well but it was sweet it was good i'm glad i got to talk to him yeah it was he looked we played his 70th birthday party at the um at the whiskey yeah and i saw him and god he really looked like death warmed up yeah with the with the cane? The face. I mean, such a shame. I mean, it could have been avoided. Yes, it would have taken a little work. You know, he changed Jack Daniels to vodka and orange juice because orange juice is healthy. You know, that's his thinking.

All right, so you're playing around. You're doing all the places. You're getting your chops in order. And then how does it evolve? Is Chrissy Hynde around? She's around. She's hanging out, right? She's hanging out.

I was hanging out. Yeah. Hanging out in the back of her. Yeah? Yeah. She seemed like, when I talked to her, it was very intimidating. She's great, Chrissy. She's a true rock and roller.

Yeah, she really is, man. Her story's pretty amazing peter deuce i love her man and then she used she used to come over denmark street and stay over at night yeah we used to have a little thing going yeah and i was always like ah oh she goes i want to be in a band i'm like ah shut up talk of being a band get get down here. But she proved everybody wrong. Fair play to her. Are you friends with her still? Yeah. She did the forward for my book.

Oh, good. Good. Oh, good. All right. So you're playing around. We're playing around. I'm trying to figure out when you take over the world for the year or two that you did. We play around.

We start getting popular a little bit on the music front. We're playing up and down england and you're doing avant-garde places like art rock places only a few in london most of the shows we did up north yeah were uh pretty brutal yeah when men's work in men's clubs tashes flares big fuzier throwing throwing shit at us yeah you know that was the... But in there, there'd always be a couple of kids who would, like, be gravitated to it. Lock in. And the next day, they'd cut their hair,

put plastic bags on themselves, you know. Yeah. And that kind of went along. We got a record deal with EMI. Sure. We cut Anarchy when we were with EMI. We start rehearsing to do a tour.

We were the Headlines, Clash, The Damned, and Johnny Funders and the Heartbreakers. We're rehearsing at this place in Kilburn. A limousine pulls up.

You're going down to the Today Show. Queen can't make it. We were label mates. All right, so we all get in the limo. We go down to the Today Show. Queen can't make it. We were label mates. All right. So we all get in the limo. We go down to the, there's two channels on TV at this point. Yeah.

Thames Television and BBC. I believe so. This is a big show. It's six o'clock. Everyone watches it. They're eating their bangers of mash and drinking tea. Everyone watches this. Everyone.

We go in there. We get put in a green room. I start down in a couple of bottles of Blue Nun because I'm getting nervous again because I'm not going to be on TV. Shitty white wine. The worst, but it tasted good. Yeah.

It was sweet. We seem like we were in the green room forever. Okay, time to go. We go marching out. Susie in the band. Susie's with us. she's a fan that bromley contingent yeah they're standing with a few other fans behind the band we're sitting down he starts asking the questions he's got no interest in in us at all yeah he immediately don't like us he wanted queen to be there he did yeah and uh he probably didn't even want queen there he was such an old fart you know one of them old farts yeah and he immediately uh took a

disliking to us and so he's trying to provoke us he was asking what did we do with the money blah blah blah blah blah and finally uh started swearing and and he said something to suzy she said i've always wanted to meet you bill grandy she goes oh okay then we'll meet after the show then yes being like all them blokes were yeah we're probably fucking all kind of young birds yeah you know and i let him have it i called him a dirty fucker dirty bastard dirty bastard. He goes, carry on, carry on. I said, what the fuck? And no one, as far as I know, had any idea this shit was going out live. But it did. And that's when it all changed.

That next day, it went from getting a few fans, being in the NME, the Melody Maker music magazines, to front page, every front page, till the day we kind of broke up. but that was the end of it too that kind of was the beginning of the end so so it goes out i can you see this on youtube i imagine you can yeah so so it looks pretty tame now right at the time it was a big deal no one ever swore on tv sure so now you've launched we're we're we're there we've we've hit the big time and punk rock becomes a thing becomes the thing it's all go uh so did you do the show with the heartbreakers and everybody we did but a lot

of the shows got canceled because of that because the publicity you know we were these we were these devils yeah a lot of these places where we were going to play people would protest oh really council would come out in drives we're not having them playing in our city so out of the out about the 12 i don't even remember how many shows there was originally we did about three yeah and were you doing dope yet uh no i experimented once but i wasn't into it at this point yeah but i was around the heartbreakers guys and man they made they made up for me not doing it i'll tell you that all right so how does it change so you all those shows get canceled now you're at war with the city councils with the proper people of britain there's a war going on between punk rock and the normal people.

Yeah. And what's Malcolm doing now? Well, Malcolm shit himself the night of the Bill Grundy show. Yeah. Shit himself until he saw the papers the next day. Then he's like, let me show you what I invented. You know, he tried to take credit for it all. For everything.

For that. Yeah. Yeah, for everything. Oh, he always does. You know, he always does. Is he still alive? No, he died a few years back. But, you know,

I always have a soft spot for Malcolm, even though he didn't really take care of business as far as any money that we made. But I still like him but uh and he was a big part of the sex pistols regardless what anyone says yeah but he wasn't everything he wasn't a boy band with him pulling the strings by any means no it doesn't sound like it sounds like you guys were kicking at it and doing the work yeah and going out so how do you how do you sustain yourself if you know you're

getting all this uh resistance how do you get gigs how does it start to happen well a part of that whole thing of being banned everywhere it was all part of the the mystique and and you know you couldn't buy that bloody publicity we were getting yeah but for me i just want the most best time for me. Yeah. In the Sex Pistols realm was doing Nevermind the Bollocks. Yeah. Was recording Nevermind the Bollocks. That was the happiest for me. It wasn't the shows or the rest of it. So that was what I was really into.

And then after the Grundy thing, after Glenn gets the boot, after Sid gets in the band who couldn't play, everything's kind of shifting. But when did you record? Who played on that? I played all the bass. You played all the bass? Pretty much.

Your guitar sounds great on that record. It's weird. You go, you know, you listen to, you're a Les Paul guy, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a great sound. And, you know, when you go back, I remember when it came out, because it was 75, 75?

76, 77. Was it 77? 77, I think, the album came out. Because I remember when it came out because it was 70 what was it 5 75 76 77 was it 77 I think the album came out because I remember when it came to the states because I was like 13 14 years old and it wasn't my bag but I bought it immediately and I had it and I you know I listened to it and I couldn't wrap my brain around it when I was at that age but later I played and I'm like you know this isn't crazy this is just rock and roll music. Just rock and roll. Because, you know, the whole press of the Pistols and the way he sings in particular, but the root of it, it's just fucking rock. Yeah.

It's not like crazy. No. So you go in there and you record that and you do the bass because Matlock's out? Matlock's already gone. Matlock played on Anarchy. Yeah. Because he was still in the band when we did the single. Yeah. But after we did that single and he got the boot why did he get the boot uh circumstances he didn't look the part he was a bit clean yeah his mom didn't like the song anarchy in the uk it was

it was a combination of things he's still around though right he's still around, though, right? He's still around. Friends? Yeah. You know. Yeah. He's suing us right now. Really? I think so. For what? You know, once more. Oh, yeah. From that record.

Some people, though, no matter what you give them, they'll always want more. Man, but how much is there at this point? Nothing. We did one bleeding album. There's nothing. It's weird how that happens later it's like you know like people are like they get a grudge turns into like well i got nothing yeah i want some of that back yeah so okay so recording was fun i love the recording process we got a good producer chris thomas and bill price the engineer chris thomas a lot of records. I wanted him in the band because he did early Roxy Music records.

And he was like a proper producer. A lot of punk bands back in the day would get all kinds of clowns to produce them. Right. Like we did originally. We had our sound guy for live shows started out with him. Yeah.

And he just, he lost it. He just smoked so much weed and all of a sudden he lost it. Some people ain't meant for him. Yeah. And he just, he lost it. He just smoked so much weed and all of a sudden he lost it. Some people ain't meant for success. Yeah. And his ego

went out of control. So we attempted doing Anarchy with him originally and he just, he made us play the backing track like a hundred times

and it was never enough. It was never right. It was perfect the second time. And he kept going. He was just out of his mind. You're gone.'re waiting there a proper studio second cut okay that's done come in here let's do some overdubs john let's do some vocals let's do some bits and bobs it was it was done in like you know a few days fantastic anarchy yeah yeah then Matlock goes Sid joins the band

Sid's in hospital when we're doing the record a godsend because he wanted to play on it why was he in the hospital he had like jaundice

or something how'd you meet that guy he was friends with John yeah another one who used to go in the shop yeah he was around

he used to come to the early shows yeah was he a what kind of guy was he? I liked Sid. Yeah. I thought he was a good lad. Yeah.

He was a classic juvenile delinquent. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But not crazy. You know, he was going to all the Bowie stuff. He had his hair like Bowie. Yeah.

When he was 14, 15. Bowie stuff. He had his hair like Bowie. Yeah. When he was 14, 15. He was younger. He was 19. And when I was like 22, he was 19, so he's younger. But he didn't play any instrument. No. No. Got slung in the deep end.

I had to kind of tell him what to put his fingers, which is the last thing I want to be doing. And the reason you took him on was because he looked good. He looked good, and I think John liked him because he was his buddy. Yeah. Then all of a sudden John's got a buddy because it was always me and Cookie. Yeah. And we'd always fuck off after we rehearsed or did shows.

Right. And I think John resented that. He didn't have his buddy. Yeah. You know? Yeah. He didn't want to hang out with Matlock. So that kind of was good and they both look fantastic

on stage yeah they really did yeah they looked apart i got pushed back you know i got i got put in the shadows which i kind of got resentment against yeah you know but um so after the record's out where do you tour when do you come to the states for the first time not long after that i think we did a couple of shows with Sid. I don't know, 10, something. Just 10 shows with Sid after the record's out live. I believe so, not much. And how's performing live?

Are you guys tight? No. He can't fucking play. In his respect, he was trying to play. He had his bass up here. Yeah. Like where your normal bass plays. Something where if you're going to play he had his bass up here yeah like where your normal bass something where if you're gonna play bass yeah have it up a bit higher if you're learning you know yeah and he

attempted it um he attempted it and it lasted a little bit but when we came to the states it just all fell apart he had the bass down low thought it was a guitar he would he would like strum it thinking it no the bass has to keep pumping yeah to make it work yeah so it was a guitar he would he would like strum it thinking it no the bass has to keep pumping yeah to make it work yeah so it was just this was another element in my head that i went in my head like this is getting worse and worse and worse and worse when you get to the states yeah when's everybody start getting doped up well sid's already doing that yeah with that bird nancy yeah he's the only he was the only one doing smack in england yeah okay he showed up one one uh at one show at a sound check with her and we're like who's this who's this bird yeah yeah she was in britain she was there

yeah oh yeah hanging out over yeah she was looking for a rock star. Yeah. Trouble. Yeah. Yeah. So she got him. Got him hooked? He was the sucker, yeah. Yeah. Well, she got him hooked. She got him in with the smack thing, I think. And when did you get involved?

After the pistols broke up. Oh, really? Yeah. You come here, how many dates you do? You do New York, you go across country. I remember seeing magazine articles. You guys did a little tour, right? Yeah, but we did weird places right like texas and tulsa yeah not the normal place why is that it was it was a stunt from mclaren oh yeah which rightly so it was a good one not doing all the normal gigs that every other rock and roll band came over so are you

getting hated everywhere yeah by. By cowboys. And it was a circus. Yeah. No one was really coming to see anything. Yeah. It was a circus. It was out of control at this point. Really?

Really. Like how so? Really out of control. How so? Well, when we landed in New York. Yeah. We were greeted by like 50 people. Some Vietnam vets who was meant to be looking

after us High Times magazine yeah this magazine that magazine New York Times yeah blah blah blah and they were all looking for the exclusive you know uh one time uh when we were on the road I don't know where it was but High Times convinced Sid to come into a hotel room and film him shooting up, you know, and they almost got it if it wasn't through one of these vet guys who crashed in the door and, and, uh, and smashed up the camera. Really? Yeah. We were on thin ice anyway. Yeah. I think Warner Brothers had to guarantee that there'd be no problems. Because we got turned down originally with my visa.

And I think Cookie had a criminal record. They didn't want us in the States. Yeah. But I think they had to get a guarantee from Warner Brothers. So you left EMI. EMI was over before we went to America. We went to A&M, which lasted a week. They kicked us off, and then we ended up with Virgin, Richard Branson.

Yeah. So the whole thing was a clusterfuck disaster. Yeah. That tour. Yeah. And you go back to Britain, and what happened? I didn't go back to Britain. You stayed here.

We broke up in San Francisco. I said, I'm fucking done. We were meant to go to Brazil after that. It killed you. Yeah. And we were meant to go there. And Ronnie Biggs, the great train rock robber was going to open up with us.

Tell poetry. Yeah. So I said, I've had enough. Cookie came with me and Malcolm came with me. We went to Brazil and was continuing to do the rock and roll swindle movie. That was in production? That was kind of in production, yeah.

John didn't want nothing to do with it. Why? Because he didn't like the concept of it. What was the concept? The concept of it what was the concept the concept of it was to make malcolm mclaren look like he invented everything so then john and glenn i mean john and malcolm always butted heads yeah always butted heads but i was more closer to malcolm so that decision was was easier for me and it sounded like a good idea to go to brazil yeah just me and cookie without the other two and they have fun did you have fun i had a great time

i was there for like two months doing real blow yeah that's what you remember real blow man this was like 78 it was so good yeah and you're shooting a movie yeah we did yeah it was like a real shoestring budget yeah but it was fun i don't remember ever seeing the whole movie yeah it's a mishmash it don't make no sense it's kind of culty i remember seeing well you know sid's my way is on that right it's in that right yeah then i go back to england yeah and then that's when it hit me and we're still filming so I'm gonna rock and roll swindle it was over a few months yeah that's when I started getting into dope huh that's when I started getting to dope that's

when it started getting very dark and horrible I sold everything well you know I'm not you were broke broke not a businessman yeah you know i just wanted to escape escape through dope that was it no music i couldn't care less we formed the band somewhere in there the professionals yeah me and cookie was he strung out too no cookie was a sensible one yeah um so we did that we wrote a bunch of songs but my my heart weren't in it. My heart was just into getting high. Yeah. Music, anything else was secondary.

We went on the road a couple of times across the states. Yeah. But it was just one big mess. Yeah. Not as much. I liked it because I liked the guys in the band. Yeah. But my head was just not in the right place.

Because you were strung out. Yeah. And you're going on tour and trying to find dope and doing that whole thing? That whole thing. Drunk all the time. Blow. Oh, God. Grim.

And how long did that go on for? A couple of years. So when did you stay stateside? Well, when I went to that hotel last night at the Uruguay Hotel, I said, I'll see you later. And I didn't go back to England for 12 years. I sold my passport. You sold your passport?

Yeah, not for much. You can do that? I guess so. I did. To a guy that looked like you? How does that work? No, I just sold it as a fan. Oh, a fan. Okay okay i get it now it

makes sense yeah to whoever you know i think i just i i didn't want to never go back that's why i sold it so when do you do the first solo album oh that's when i got sober so so you start so you didn't stay with the dope the whole time or i mean, like once you got here, you weren't doing nothing? The first year I did dope in New York City. I stayed in New York for a year. Formed this other band. This other band came about. Checkered Past.

Yeah. With Michael DeBars, Tony Sales, Clemberg, and Nigel Harrison from Blondie. No Hunt? No Hunt. I like Hunt. He's a great drummer. He's great. And he's funny.

So that band starts in New York. We did some, this is like around 82, 83. We did a showcase at Peppermint Lounge in New York. I'm a mess, but I heard money. Yeah.

From this showcase. This is when there was money around yeah we did it everyone liked the show oh let's start a band okay it's based in la so we kind of all drifted out to la i was a mess i went to some private doctor who gave me this methadone thing yeah i got off it but then I was still drinking and doing blow and all the rest of it. But you got off dope. I got off the dope for a bit. This band got a deal with EMI.

I started living with Michael DeBars and his wife, Pamela DeBars. The band did a record, did a few shows, folded. I got back into dope here in in la that shitty black tar dope uh the balloons yeah downtown yeah this went on and until um i run into a lady i was homeless at this point what What year were you looking at? 83, 84. I'd fucked everyone over. Yeah.

I was couch surfing. And I ran into a lady on Sunset Boulevard where the guitar center is. There used to be one of my places that I go, 12-step program. Yeah. And she said, look, she'd gotten straight. She said, you can sleep on my couch but you

have to go to meetings and i said okay yeah and i did that and got got got uh sober didn't get it at this point 83 this yeah this went on for about another six years before the in and out in and out before the coin actually dropped really yeah what did you get a year here six months here what all that yeah plus when i when i you know i hadn't had sex in like six years i don't know if you've ever done dope but no you're not sexual driven it just stops yeah you know you don't even masturbate yeah so after six years i'm getting sober i'm off the dope i I'm an animal, you know, and all I want to do is to get laid. And I go to my meetings and I'm steaming into everyone. My addiction went from there to sex.

Yeah. And I never really got the step thing. Yeah. At this point. I just wanted attention from chicks. I was working out. I was getting all in shape. I remember you were kind of ripped.

I was ripped. I looked like Fabio. Yeah. With the long hair. Curly hair. Metal guy. Flowing hair. But that was the best time.

I actually did a record that was kind of a metal record. Yeah. Just to get laid. That was the Mercy record? The next one. Fire and Gasoline. When I really went for it. Yeah.

I always wondered what that transition was i didn't know how you got from the pistols to there but now i know it was for pussy it was basically for pussy but it was also me getting straight for the first time and wanting nothing to do with punk yeah were you hanging out the roxy and shit the rainbow the rainbow yeah the rainbow rainbow yeah and the roxy rainbow had the good ital Italian food, right? I don't know. Everyone says it's the best chicken soup. I think that's, I don't know. I'll tell you, my date is October 28th, 1990.

That's when it all turned around. I started making dough at this point. I had my own place that I was renting up in the hills. For music you were making, Brett? Yeah, from the two solo albums, working with Iggy Pop. Did you love Iggy? Andy Taylor.

Yeah. Made a lot of money from that. With who? Andy Taylor? The guitar player from Duran Duran. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, I was doing okay. What'd you do with Iggy?

I wrote four, three songs on Blah Blah Blah. Oh, good. That was a big record? Yeah. I was really bummed that I couldn't play on it, but they did it in Switzerland, and I didn't have any papers and all. I was really bummed.

I would love to have done that with David Bowie producing. Yeah, yeah. And then the second album, an album called Instinct, did that in New York with Bill Lazwell, and I played all the guitar on that. Again, co-wrote three or four songs oh really so you had a real relationship with uh james yeah yeah it was great he's great i relapse again on dope yeah uh take some bird prisoner we're shooting dope with one big horse needle the only time i go out is to get a caesar salad and ice cream

and this went on for about two weeks and everyone knows me in the room anybody who works uh manager friends when i go missing yeah they know i'm getting loaded right because i'm one of them i don't make i don't go around people making out i'm sober when i'm high yeah i disappear so they knew and uh i was gonna i was convincing myself on one of the on one of these that i was going to get sober again i was going to medic self medicate myself with some painkillers yeah and quaaludes yeah and go back to the meetings and no one would know right that lasted about 10 minutes and i and i said fucking holy fuck i'm done you know yeah it was a moment when you made that plan and you realized it was a moment yeah and i surrendered i i absolutely surrendered and now i know that feeling of like that was my bottom that was it yeah because after that i just turned it all

around i got involved my got a sponsor he said he said jump i said how high it was all i mean i was still fucking chicks yeah but i was doing i was doing the business yeah in the rooms as well you know working the shit yeah yeah and that and that was it and here i am 26 years later surviving and you look well you look relatively healthy yeah i've got a i've got a food is the is the last frontier you know diabetes you got the diabetes i do but i'm i'm turning it around i've been i've been dieting for not dieting but watching what i'm eating for the last two months and now like what what happens like after all this time because you know what how did your relationship with lyden hold up oh we don't have a relationship you don't at all no he lives in this we live you know

not far he lives down in venice yeah and there is no relationship that just didn't it ended badly and that was it uh well we you know the last time I think I saw him was in 2008, the same time when I saw my real dad. We did 30 shows in Europe, Russia, Japan, 30. Who was the lineup? Was it you and Leiden and Cook? And the original bass player. Matt Lock?

Really? Yeah. Any time we've done reunions, it's been the original four. Are they good? Do you like them? Do you like the tour? I mean good do you do do you like them do you like the tour i mean do you guys play well together uh it it has been good there's moments yeah but by the end of it i just want to kill myself you know and it's a shame yeah because we should be uh

should be over all that shit all that stuff yeah but you know, some of us can't let go of resentments. Yeah. You have? Some of us can't let go of resentments. Hey, you know, it's progress, not perfection. If we were getting Rolling Stones money, we'd be doing it. Right. But at the end of the day

a way up was that worth it yeah for my in my well-being and it ain't yeah and you do this great radio show yeah is that every day five days a week you love it you came on there i did we played some messy guitar it was fun i enjoyed it yeah it was fun man and do you and people love that show it's it's hard to have a a mainstream terrestrial radio show that people still love i don't think there's many no i get to play what i want say what i want have who i want on and it's great yeah do you uh because you know i think basically terrestrial radio i think a lot of people just want to hear some noise in the background yeah but there is a percentage of true music fans who love music yeah who gravitate to my show because they know they're going to get some good shit an eclectic mix you

and rollins rollins does a a show on npr where he plays shit yeah yeah it's. It's good, you know, because, you know, you hear new stuff or you hear shit you haven't heard in a while, but it's like it's driven by your personality and your taste. Who are your bands now? Who do you play a lot on the show? What do you go back to? I play new stuff.

There's some new bands that I like playing. That's another thing I get the opportunity to do, play some new bands. But I go deep. I play Jeff Rotol. Yeah. You know, I play some prog. Yeah. deep i play jeff roto yeah you know i play some prog yeah i play free yeah oh free yeah sure you know deep cuts yeah whatever roxy music bowie yeah new york dolls which is insane for klos yeah but i've been doing it for so long it's almost like normal now yeah people expect it you have uh do you do a lot of interviews on your show i know i came on yeah people on yeah loads yeah did you ever meet bowie and talk to him

um yeah i actually uh i did i met him a couple of times did you make an amends for the thief i made amends over the phone i believe you did but i had the i had the um original drummer came on my show six months ago with Tony Visconti. The producer, yeah. They were doing this Holy Holy tour. It was that one album that Visconti produced. I don't know. They were going-

A Bowie record. It was a Bowie record. I can't- I don't know why it was called Holy Holy. I'm just giving a blank moment but anyway the drummer came on and I owed him an amends for the cymbals that I stole off him that at the Hammersmith at the Hammersmith Odeon did he remember well I said now I'm thinking now I'm looking at him I'm thinking do I should I do this live or say off air? How's he going to react? And I thought, fuck it.

I'll just do it. Wait till we're on the air. And I said, Woody, I owe you amends. He said, you do? He said, yeah. I said, I stole your cymbals from Hammersmith Odeon. He goes, oh, really? I said, yes.

I don't know if he knew. I don't know how he could not know when your symbols disappear. You have to replace them. Someone must have told him. Yeah. You know. Your symbols are gone. And so I said, what can I do to make it right?

He didn't remember, though? He said he didn't. Yeah. He said, I said, let me give you some money. He said, how much do you want? He said, give me 100 bucks. I said, here's 200 bucks. And he took the 200 bucks.

He was over the moon. And I was glad. I felt, you know, I felt good making amends. It's a load off. And then he put that in his book. He did? He had a book that came out two weeks later. He must have rushed that one thing in there and put it in the book.

And then I went and saw him at the gig at the Wilton that night. He's a fantastic drummer, man. Yeah. Woody Woodmansey kicks ass. He played with Bowie on what? Which ones? He must have been with him a long time. Ziggy Stardust, Aladdin Sane.

Wow. Man, that guy is better than ever. I just got that Bowie at the bbc box yeah holy shit yeah to hear that band stripped down yeah no tricks no all those bands throughout those years they're like they're like one of them bands like free yeah where they're all putting their 25 cents in that there's no weak link yeah that that's what that's what ziggy. That's what the Spiders from Mars were like. Great bass player. Yeah.

The drummer. And Mick Ronson, of course, who's my man. Yeah. He's my number one. He's a Gibson guy. He's my man. He's still around? No, he died of cancer.

Oh. But he not only was a great guitar player, he was classically trained. So like on Transformer, Lou Reed yeah all that stuff that's him and that's all that's him on on the burry records all that stuff yeah weird cool change yeah yeah and he's a great he's a great uh guitar player was he a good guy fantastic guy sweetheart yeah that that was his problem yeah no one knew who he was because he was so sweet uh he didn't stand up for himself you know all right man it's great talking to you buddy when's this gonna be up not too long do you play music no i play i noodle around on the guitar

after sometimes by myself you don't have to pay for that i don't have to pay for it and like i just got in the habit of it we had we have a theme song but like now that i've been noodling my producer is cutting that up and uses it in between things yeah just me on these see they send me a some earthquake or sends me these pedals yeah so fuck around on a guitar or two you're getting some free shit i get free shit that means you're doing all right that's the best thing about it yeah the free shit yeah shit. Yeah. Records. Pedals. I'm just getting a mountain bike for nothing. Really?

Yeah. It's time. What do you mean? Like a motorcycle or a pedal bike? No, a pedal. Good. I'm saying you were trying to get in shape. It's a good one, too.

Carbon fiber. Are you going to use it? Probably not. That's what. Take the bike I got sitting out there when I had a big idea. Yeah. It's like a solo flex. Remember them things?

Yeah. I got to get one of those. I fucking had one. All it did was collect dust and I'd fuck chicks on it. At least you got a little exercise. Yeah. Five minutes worth. Thanks, Steve.

All right, buddy. All right, Steve. All right, buddy. All right, people. That was the lovely Steve Jones. Hope you enjoyed that. Don't forget, go to WTFpod.com slash tour for my tour dates. Or just go there for the podcast. Get on the mailing list. Buy a poster.

Do what you have to do. I'm going to enjoy my last couple days in Hawaii now. Okay? Boomer lives! We'll be right back. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Calgary is an opportunity rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA, a city that's innovative, inclusive and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges