WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 787 - Trae Crowder / Lena Dunham

Episode Date: February 19, 2017

Comedian Trae Crowder does not shy away from his Southern upbringing, in which he saw economic devastation and drug abuse lay waste to several generations around him. But in defiance of the stereotypes some might assign to him, Trae finds himself being called the Liberal Redneck Comic. He and Marc talk about what those labels mean in today's social climate. Plus, Lena Dunham returns to the garage as the final episodes of Girls draw near. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies, what the fucknics, what the fuckadelics, what's happening? I am Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Quite a show today. I got to be honest with you. I got to be honest with you.

I went down into the American South, to North Carolina, to Durham and Charlotte, and had a pretty amazing, cathartic time. Great shows. I'll tell you about that in a second. Today on the show, Trey Crowder, the comedian who has become known as the liberal redneck comedian, will be on a little while from now lena dunham stopped by to talk for a few about uh the new season of girls and some of the other stuff she's doing so durham i always like going down there i you know i've been to raleigh a few times i've been to charlotte a few times it's pretty but uh I sold out the Carolina Theater there, and I still didn't know what to expect.

But, boy, it was great. But the great thing was is that I know people there. I know Mac. Mac, who's been on this show from Merge Records, from the band Superchunk. I got to my hotel within 15 minutes. Man, he came over. We rushed over to the Nasher Museum on the Duke campus, saw an

opening of work by Nina Chanel Abney. This beautiful, big canvas is a lot of color, a lot of themes. It just, you know, and that place had a bunch of people there. It's a beautiful museum, a beautiful space for art. Just, you know, a celebration of diversity in the human spirit, people taking it in, nourishing the soul, being around the art, had a little few hors d'oeuvres, then we split and went right over to the Durham Hotel, which is where I was staying, and his wife, an award-winning chef, Andrea, it's her restaurant over there at the hotel. And, yeah, swept in, took a walk around, went over to the merge offices, saw how the sausage was made,

and then me and Mac and a couple of dudes that worked over there walked over to Carolina Soul, the used record store right there in Durham. I picked up James Brown's's reality and uh patty smith's easter got a t-shirt said hi to the fellas and then later went over to uh the carolina theater and my opening act was a girl named blair nias and my buddy brian mallow also a guy started out with back in i didn't start out with him, but I knew him back in San Francisco. He happened to live there too.

He reached out, so I let him do a spot on the show. Place was packed. It was very cathartic. It was very raw. It was very real. And it was very funny and relieving. And it was nice to see everybody. And I felt good after the show went back to the hotel

crashed woke up the next morning ran into a couple people from the show just one who had just gone to a bakery and bought a lemon chess pie where the fuck do you get chess pie nowhere but the south so they were like they loved we love the show do you want a piece of this we're just driving we gotta drive an hour out into the country where we live had a, we love the show. Do you want a piece of this? We're just driving. We got to drive an hour out into the country where we live. Had a great time at the show. Talked for a while. Had the guy in the kitchen

slice me off a piece of that pie. Ate that shit for breakfast plus some other pastries. Got jacked on sugar. Passed out. Got my rent-a-car. Drove two and a half hours to Charlotte,

however long it was. Drove straight on through. Stopped for gas, got a little taste of the town along the highway, the gas station. Felt like North Carolina, but it was good. There's good people down there. Then I got to Charlotte, checked into the fancy hotel. That place is crazy at night man charlotte is a fucking shit show at night just like people packed out dancing partying in the streets it's crazy i don't know what's going on there i do know that there's something going on there but that show was amazing too i did I did the night theater and pulled in about 900 people or so.

Again, just, you know, connected, wrote it out, did about almost two hours, both nights, very appreciative crowds, and again, a very emotional and cathartic experience. Good nights of comedy, good nights of community. And it was beautiful because, you know, a lot of people don't uh don't do north carolina anymore because of the um hb2 legislation the lgbtq community has uh had a rough fight down there a lot of people don't perform down there i think it's hurt the state a great deal but i decided to go and i'm gonna kick in a good chunk of the proceeds that I got, the fee to charities. I'm going to put most of it into equalitync.org. And I'm going to put a little bit into the Carolina Tiger Rescue, which is not a social cause, but they need some money because they've got to keep

them big cats alive. They take in tigers and leopards and all kinds of strange exotic cats that people buy as pets or zoos, roadside attractions. They got all these cats down there that they're keeping alive and saving, very exotic, large cats, and they just took in a bunch so i'm going to put a little money there but most of the money i will be uh sending to uh equality nc.org but uh like i said it was like there were great shows man and it was great to be out you know once i got out it was great to be out and i do want to thank the people who came out and saw me. So that's my update.

All right. Lena Dunham was in town. The last season of Girls is on. And she also does a thing called Lennyletter.com is the culture website she runs. And Women of the Hour is her podcast. This is me in a little chat with Ms. Dunn. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything.

So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series,

FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. You seem like you're in pretty good spirits, Maren.

I'm okay. It's really day to day, depending what my brain does to me. I'm terrified all the time. Your energy's positive. I don't know what to do. I'm trying to keep a positive energy. Pull that mic into your face. You've got a positive energy right now. Like I came in and I was like, I don't know, expecting something a little dark.

Oh yeah? Yeah. Oh, you should have come in a half hour earlier. Ask the people that came with you who were here a half hour early how my energy was. That's amazing. Hey, I'm a professional entertainer. I can turn it on. That's well, I feel it.

I came in. I was like, we're doing pretty good considering all of this. Oh, my God. Yeah. Talk to my girlfriend about it. Talk to my friends. But I'm always happy to hear that you're dating. I've been with this woman a few years, I think. Two and a half years, about. Two and a half years?

She's a painter. So you were beginning to date her when you came and did Girls? Yes. I remember that because you were like, I'm with a painter. And I was like, well, you're always with somebody, so how am I going to keep track of this? Yeah, she's an abstract painter. She's very good. She's a real deal. You know about painters. Yes, I do. You live with painters.

That's so great. And does she live here at the cat ranch? No, she lives down the street on her own ranch. Does that work better for you? Yes. That's great. Yeah, there's no risk of destroying it just from claustrophobia. I love it.

I love it. Don't you find that if you can manage... She got her own house. She has a studio. So we spend a lot of time together, but there is that ability not to be so far up each other's asses that that causes problems. Yeah.

Jack and I lived for a while in a studio apartment, and it wasn't the best thing for our relationship. And then once we had more space, we were like, oh, our problems went away. Oh, did they? Kind of, yeah. Is that true? I mean, we have different problems, but the problems of the studio apartment went away. What?

Now, tell me about painters. Tell me about... Now, I'm starting to find that your dad's a painter. My dad's a painter, yeah. And she likes his work. And he's a real guy, real painter guy. He's a real painter guy. He's what's been referred to by people as a painter's painter, which is that a lot of painters love his work.

That's always like that painter's painter or comics comic, that always comes with a little bittersweetness. I know, because you're a little bit like, well, why can't I just be the world's painter? Yeah. It usually comes with sort of, well, I'd like to be selling like the painter who thinks I'm the painter's painter. Yeah, exactly. But it's interesting. Whenever I meet a painter, they're always like, your dad had such an influence on me. Really?

His work is so important to me. Because, you know, also painting is not just straight up painting. We have so many options now with media. Right. That just being a straight up painter who goes into a studio with brushes and paint is becoming increasingly rare. People are always like, I work in mixed media. I digitally print and then I curl things on it. And like my dad goes in every day and he paints and that's what he does.

The way they think, like, I don't know if it's common, but they sort of have their own time zone, don't they? Like they're very sort of sensitive, kind of like poetic people that, you know, just stay in that groove where you're just, you know, thinking about a canvas or working with a canvas and finishing. I just feel like she exists in this sort of hyper real, you know, very intuitive reality. Well, it's so funny. I call my dad. I feel exactly what you're saying. And he works. Usually he starts working around like 6 a.m.

And he'll work from like 6 to 11 then take some time in the afternoon then go back in and work until dinner yeah maybe he'll go back in a little bit after dinner and when i call my dad in the studio which i do he has a barn that's outside his house where he paints and i call him in the studio and he'll like he always answers the same way like he's like hello doll as if he's like incredibly surprised that it's me even though only like two of us have his phone number yeah and. And then he's always like, I can feel the clock ticking on our conversation because he has to get back to what he's doing.

But sometimes I make fun. He's like, I got to go. I'm right in the middle of something. And I'm like, yeah, you've got to go. You're filling in a bird. Yeah. I'm like, I want to make fun of him because I'm like, there's nobody there with you.

It's actually not urgent. The only urgency is that like you have decided that this is the 10 minutes in which you're going to fill in this bird. Or they're on a roll or they're in it. You know, I mean, it's that thing about being in it. He's like always in it, which makes me crazy because he just goes in there and drops in it. And the thing that's cool about being a painter is also even on a day that you're not inspired, there's busy work for you to do. you're not inspired there's busy work for you to do so it's like if he's not feeling like he's creating new things he's filling in you know an entire like yeah yeah 10 feet of space with purple paint right he's done the you know he's preparing to do the other work exactly but it's interesting

like my mom is a photographer and a filmmaker and she's totally different and her work's super social and she's like more like me she's always sort of like tortured and annoyed at somebody and yeah figuring out how to get something done and my dad's process is like me. She's always sort of like tortured and annoyed at somebody and figuring out how to get something done. And my dad's process is like so solitary and really the only time that he seems to have frustrating interactions with other people is when it's time to like hang a show.

And then he's got to explain the idea that's been in his head to other people, which he does with lots of tiny diagrams. Yeah, of course. It's got to be right. Everything's got to be right. It's got to be sitting on the wall just perfect. I'm going with my dad.

My dad's having a painting show in Oslo. And so I'm going next week to Oslo with my dad for five days. And I haven't traveled with him like that since. Have you been to Oslo? I have been to Oslo. Weird fact, I feel I can brag about, my dad's like really famous in Norway. He's a famous in Norway guy?

Yeah, it's like he's big in Norway. He knows the famous in Norway guy. Yeah. It's like he's big in Norway. Like he like knows the queen of Norway. I don't know how it happened. And one time I asked a Norwegian, I was like, why are you guys so into him? He was they were like, we have a very dark. We have a very dark aesthetic. And like your father's work speaks to the anger and darkness of Norway. Wow.

Well, that's great because painters need patrons. If they're not just, you not just rich people who may not get the painting. It's nice to have the support, the aesthetic support of an entire sensibility that's another country. He has a whole life in Norway. And so I haven't gotten to travel with... My dad and I used to travel alone together a lot and do weird things like take the overnight

train to Canada. And we like the same kinds of things. Yeah. And I haven't gotten to travel with my dad since the show started so it's been eight years eight years so i was like my dad like kind of said like hey if you want to come to norway and he was so shocked that i was like yes i do so we're gonna spend five days together in norway and i can't wait because i haven't watched him hang a show since i was a little girl so i'm like excited to just hang around the gallery and watch him do his thing because time travel yeah that was my whole childhood was just like sitting around the gallery with my dad and like a bunch of hot guys measured things and i like played in a coloring book and now i'm basically going to do the same thing only

i'll be 30 yeah no coloring book probably no and my dad's really like my dad's like a real i don't know how to when i watched that movie captain Captain Fantastic, the Big O' Mortensen, which is so great, where like there's the dad who's sort of like trying to raise his children off the reservation. Like my dad's not that, but he is a little like trying to constantly impress upon me that everything that the universe says is important isn't. And every, you know, so basically the last. Big concept. Big concept. So basically the last like six years of my life and like becoming a celebrity and all of that is like, he's proud of me as a creative person, but all of that's like revolting to him and like a kind of, um, a false narrative that's been created by a broken culture.

So he's excited for me to step back and hang out in Norway. Are you excited to step away from the false narrative created by a broken culture? Isn't that super special? I was like hanging out with my dad. It happens happening daily now. I know. Every 10 minutes, there's a new false narrative created by a broken culture. Yeah.

If you want to get deep, he's the person to get deep with. I mean, he'll basically tell you that like Donald Trump trump is a hologram oh and he'll support that i mean he doesn't believe he's an actual hologram but he'll explain that donald trump is like a kind of a figurehead for like the endless pain of a society that's been feeding upon itself i mean my dad's just like he's very philosophical why you should have brought him he's more i had him on my podcast on my women of the hour podcast and we talked for a long time about his relationship to psychedelic drugs and i found him to be the best guest because he said really insane things in a totally monotone voice so he'd be like yeah when i dropped you know this when i took a massive dose of acid and locked

myself into a room for five days i did learn a lot about triangles and you're like but he's saying it like he's an economist and so it's a super it's like i'm like you don't know how funny you are you're the funniest he was honest research yeah i mean and i had to convince him i was like he was like you have a podcast i was like yeah it's like on the charts like like people listen millions of people listen to it and he was like oh like he just had no idea to podcast yeah no idea that really there would be any why we would have it. And he was like, oh, like he just had no idea to podcast. Yeah. No idea that really there would be any, why we would have a conversation on. And he was like, I don't know why you'd want to talk to me, but sure. And he came into the studio. See that they have their, they're in their own place.

Yeah. That's very painterly. Yeah, it is. Right. Yeah. So how's that podcast going? What's called woman of the hour. Women of the hour.

Thank you so much. I was, you know, I really thought about you when i was doing it because interviews interviewing people in a thoughtful and easygoing way is a challenge and i thought about how you're one of the greats and so i had a lot of a great time doing it i just did the second was there a learning curve yes my first interviews were like i have prepared nine. All of them have the word hegemony in them. And you, I was like, no, I want to be cool like Marc Maron. But it also is a podcast about like modern feminism and women's issues. So it's different.

We're hitting a different audience. Yeah. I keep mine pretty broad. I don't get that specific. My boyfriend makes fun of the podcast. He's like, on today's episode, we'll interview the first woman to play a very specific kind of flute. He's like, it's just so like, I turned into a weird NPR lady. And he thinks it's so, I was like, have you listened to the podcast?

He's like, sure, yeah. It's the one where a woman did a thing. Right. Secretly, I think my podcast is about me. Well, I've known that for a long time. Your monologues are, even if there's an episode where I'm like, I'm not that interested in hearing what that person has to say, although admittedly, you always surprise me and I step away being like-

I get surprised. I'm always like, that person's pretty smart. Yeah. But I'll always listen to your- Really? Self-flagellating monologue. Well, thank you. I think you're a minority, but I appreciate that.

That's my paranoia. But how is Jack Antonoff? How is he? He's great. He's so busy and good. Is he producing big records and things? He is. So right now he's producing the Lord, new Lord album, which comes out soon.

And then he works, I feel like I'm not at liberty to say the other three, but he's working on three big albums. And then he's the number one song on iTunes right now that he wrote and produced from Fifty Shades Darker, the film. It's a song called I Don't Want to Live with Zayn Malik and Taylor Swift. Oh, he did that? That's his song? No, Jack's like, he's-

He's big time. He is. I went with him- Did he tour with an old band of his recently? Or am I making that up? No, he reunited with his like... Like Steel Train? Steel Train, his early 20s band.

The hippie band? They are a hippie band. Yeah. Yeah, he loves you. He loved being on this show. Well, we talked about the hippie music for a while. That was a good interview. Jack is interesting because I always say that he's like a musician who is the soul of a comedy writer.

Right. He is like the tortured soul of a comedy writer yeah but just happens to be making pop music it just i thought it was i thought that whole element of him you know seeking solace and refuge in that music because it was comforting in a dark time and then realizing that it was not his music necessarily yeah no he's had it's interesting because he's had a lot of different phases and I don't want to speak for him, but I will.

As his partner of half a decade, I guess I can say this, which is that I feel like he's had a lot of phases of like, what is my music? And he ultimately realized like he's a pop musician. He likes to pop.

He likes to pop. But like he brings depth and power and emotion to pop. And pop is like the language of love and it's the language of connection and it's like the language of love and it's the language of connection and it's like the language of our youth and so it has validity and it's also the language of the music business it's also the language of money yeah and i want to stop working at some point so that i'm ready i'm literally all the time i'm like i'm very you're ready to retire

pull out well i don't know if i'm ready to retire and pull out, but I have lots of projects that aren't, that I want to do that aren't like. Pull out of the false narrative created by broken culture? I mean, literally. My dad's like, what did my dad say recently? I think it's time for you to disappear for a while. Yeah. And I was like, cool. Yeah.

That sounds cool. Yeah. I think about it a lot. Yeah. I'm getting teared up thinking about it i know it's really emotional and it's but a lot of the projects i have coming up aren't like big i mean we have i'm working on a lot of stuff with jenny that we're thrilled about but there's a lot of stuff i want to do that i wouldn't describe as like big hot big hot money projects that everybody

wants to see what's the lenny letter.com well lenny letter.com is jenny and my twice weekly feminist newsletter. Jenny Connor. Jenny Connor, who's my partner and my friend and your friend. Yeah. Producer and partner. Partner, yeah. It's beyond just like, I know a lot of people are like, I have a producing partner.

But she's my creative partner and in many ways, my life partner. In many ways, I have Jack and I have Jenny and those are my people. It's good to have a couple. I know, it is. For different reasons. It is. It is. Plus. It's good to have a couple for different reasons. I know it is. It is. Plus it's good to have one you don't have sex with. Yeah I have a similar relationship with my producer and business partner and then I have my girlfriend.

I think that you and Jenny, well that's not true, me and Brendan are pretty tight but I know there's only so much of my bullshit that he'll indulge sometimes. Jenny doesn't indulge all my bullshit. That's good. I mean, Jenny's very much just like, if I'm going down some kind of spiral, she'll straight up stop texting me back.

Just to send the signal of like, I do not feel I can be helpful here. And like, please make contact when this is concluded in a supportive way. It's her nice way of saying it's not all about you. Yes. Which, by the way, is like one of the, like, I feel a lot like when I started Girls, I was like a feral. I knew how to do this certain thing, which was right, but I was very feral in that I didn't have a lot of normal female friendships. I was extremely attached to my parents. I still lived with them.

I didn't really have normal adult interactions. I'd never had like a real job besides like working part-time and baby clothes sales. Like I wasn't, and Jenny really taught me how to be a grownup. Like she was the one who was like, when you're upset, you can't just walk out of the room and like hold your head in the bathroom for 45 minutes and then return. Like everything's normal. Like you sit there like she was the one who kind of taught me how to interact as a business person as a friend yeah as a partner to a boyfriend which is something i didn't ever really think i would be

like there's so much i mean jenny's taught you how to be a grown-up she taught me how to be a grown-up which is a big job and she has two kids of her own, so no one told her she had to do it, but she did it and I'm very grateful. Yeah, and it seems like the advice you got from your dad

is a little abstract at times and maybe not so practical. Well, my dad's thing, that's very true and my dad's thing is very much like, his vibe's very like,

fuck it. Like, if you're not feeling, not having a good day in the writer's room, move to Tibet. Like, it's, that's, for the day. Like, if you're not feeling, not having a good day in the writer's room, move to Tibet. Like, it's amazing. For the day.

Yeah. Like, his vibe is very much like, we don't have to live within this. Like, he's always trying to figure out how to, like, game this. I mean, he's not off the grid, but he's figured out a great way to, like, make his life extremely, really work for him. And what about your mom? What'd you learn from her? My mom is really interesting. My mom is, like, an artist, but she's also a very shrewd business person and she's extremely, um,

self-possessed and she doesn't take any bullshit. So that's a role model. Yeah. She's a role model. My mom is a role model. We're like really good friends. So what is Lenny Letter? So Lenny Letter is something that Jenny and I created because we wanted to basically have a platform not only for women to engage with each other on the issues of the day, on feminist issues, but also a place to sort of elevate other women's voices the way that our voices have been elevated by having the platform of the show. So it's everything from personal essays to political commentary to letting you know how you can contact your local rep to like a piece about nail care. Like we're really kind of running the gamut of things that are interesting to women because women contain multitudes anded in this crazy time in history. So we put it out twice a week. I'm super proud of it. I love and I'm proud of it, not because I'm, you know, because it's like some shiny example of my creative work.

I'm proud of it because I feel like our editor in chief, Jess Gross and Jenny and I have been able to create a space where women feel really, really safe to express themselves. And that's all I ever wanted because I haven't always felt safe expressing myself. And people are coming and going and doing it? We have our Lenny's. There's a nice, strong pocket of devoted ladies and some men who really read it and really consider it and really respond to it.

And it's one of the first times I really understood because with girls, so much of the conversation around it got lost in like you know when you have a show on hbo people who don't get it and don't get what you're trying to do are still going to watch it and still going to have something to say right and like lenny's more of the kind of thing where its audience found it and so everybody who's engaged is engaged because it's their thing and so a lot of the like crazy noise that existed around the show that you had to parse through just to kind of connect to people who might understand you yeah is not there with lenny because the people who are reading it or the people who really want to

be reading it so it must be very like um unlike the show i imagine that if you sit down and look at the engagement or the feedback of that that, that it must be satisfying in a different way. Completely. And same with the podcast. Those are two things. You feel like you're doing a service. You feel like you're doing a service and also that they're doing a service for you. I mean, do you feel this way about people who watch the show?

Like, wow, how did I listen to your show? Like, how did I find it and watch your show? How did I find this tribe of people who see the world how i do and connect and yeah i wonder if they they feel like they're a tribe i definitely get a lot of emails from people who felt like they were alone or or that they were inspired to get sober or you know it helps them with uh their fear or their darkness or whatever i i don't always get the sense that they necessarily feel like there's there's a lot of them. But I think they do feel like, well, at least there's you.

Yeah. I mean, I would think that- Or whoever I'm talking to. That's how I feel with Lenny. I feel like we have these women who kind of didn't have a place to see themselves reflected back. Right. And also we're trying really, really hard, both on the podcast and on Lenny,

to reflect clearly that, like, there's no one kind of woman, there's no one kind of feminist, that, like, being female right now is extremely multifaceted and that, like, we want to create connections within that. Now, okay, so now this is the last of girls. Yeah, we done. The last ten. Done. We last 10 done. We're done.

Oh my God. What was it like after you shot the finals? You were such a special part of girls, by the way, you really like came and you really played a character. You really turned it out to apps. I was a city councilman. You were great.

And I loved when you showed up at the party just to say like, fuck you. That was one of my favorite things we've ever shot. When he was like, it was very big of you to show up at my party. And you're like, fuck you. And did you say you were moving to Katona? You're going to move to Katona. Yeah, or somewhere.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it was Katona, but I can't be 100% sure. Yeah. And I did my fake comb over. Your comb over. Was that your idea, the comb over? Yeah.

I wanted to look different, but I didn't want to shave it all off. That was so good. Yeah, you looked very like nasty insurance salesman. Yeah, good. I'm glad I pulled it off. I was honored to do it. It was fun. It was an honor to have you.

I remember we were like- I think it was really the first time I tried to do something that wasn't me. You were amazing. And I remember we were sitting around trying to figure out who to cast. And Jenny was like, do you think Marc Maron would ever do this? And I was like, it's worth a shot. And then there you were on a plane. Coming to do it.

And it's a real honor. I think about everyone who was on Girls. And I kind of like look at the yearbook of it in my brain. And I can't believe how many special people came through. It's crazy. And you're one of that. Like, I can't believe so many people like came to play. Oh, yeah.

Actors like to work. And people, you know, like to be funny. And yeah, yeah. A lot of great people on there. Got really lucky. What was the last like what was that last day? Was there a lot of crying? So much crying.

So much crying and just like feeling like it was interesting. My grandma died this summer right in the middle of shooting. And I took a couple of days off to be with my family next to her while she was dying, which was I wasn't in the room when she died. But I was sort of there for all the lead up. We were then told by the hospice worker that we were all being too noisy and aggressive and we needed to leave her alone because we were like basically being like too noisy for her to die. She let her die in peace.

Well, it's six Jewish women. What do you expect? So we're all in there like, like I'm like braiding my cousin's hair and like shrieking about something with my boyfriend. And like literally the hospice worker was like, how can you expect her to die under these circumstances? So we went out and hung out in the hall. And she passed away? And she passed away, 96 years old.

96? Dorothy Simmons. Good work, young lady. Wow. Yeah. That is good. She really did it. Almost 97.

But she was born on leap year. So she always liked to say like, no, I'm 32 or whatever, like dividing it by three. But she was a real flirt. Oh, good. At the first girls premiere, she walked onto the red carpet. She was, like, wearing, like, a little sequined dress. So at this point, she must have been 90. And she walks right up to Judd.

And she's like, I hear you from the island. And I was like, are you flirting with Judd Apatow? Grandma, I hear you from the island and i was like are you flirting with judd apatow grandma i hear you from the island and the last words she said to anybody were to me yeah and it's because i told her a lie which is i said that jack had proposed to me which he hadn't i just have a diamond ring jack got me and i was like grandma jack and i are gonna get married yeah and she smiled and i was like look at the ring he got me and she was like i it. And then she just like never said anything again. And my family still doesn't believe she said it to me.

But I'm like, I didn't hallucinate it. Right. That's how you rouse a Jewish grandmother by showing them a large diamond given to you by a rich Jew. That's how you do it. Yeah. So when you were doing the, like considering how to end this thing, I mean. The first three episodes are weird because like Jenny said, it's sort of like considering how to to end this thing i mean the first three episodes are weird because like jenny said it's sort of like black mirror like none of the first three episodes really

have anything to do with each other well why'd you do it that way it just felt like we had stories to tell that weren't necessarily episodic but that were like sort of these self-contained lessons for our characters and if we weren't going to be experimental now when we were going to when were we going to do it? So they were primarily because it wasn't necessarily like, this is the last season. This is, these are essential episodes.

It's sort of like, these are things that this is the last time we're going to get to do this. Yeah. If we want to explore this stuff. And it was like, these are the themes that I think that we still haven't hit and that we feel together. We still haven't hit.

And like, this is the way that we want to tell the story. And then we we then it kind of gets a little more plotty in the middle and then the last two episodes we really tried to do something that jenny and i really tried to do something that was a little bit different than like a traditional season finale yeah and it worked out i think so but you know you never people will tell you if they think it worked out or not it's a little bit experiment i mean not experimental like it's not like a maya darren film it's not like we like painted on like no voodoo dancers no but it's but it's just a different way of wrapping up a story and it just felt we'd known for a long time how we wanted to end the

story but not sort of we'd known what we wanted to do thematically, but not how we wanted to approach it creatively. And it was really challenging and weird and sad. And now that we're finishing the press for girls is when the kind of like grief and identity loss and stuff is all really hitting me. Right. Oh yeah, definitely. It's like when you really think about how much of your life is taken up by a project like that, for that long a time, it leaves a big hole.

I mean, I started working on the pilot when I was 23. I was living with my parents. My life was completely different. I mean, to say my life was in a different place is an impossible understatement. And then my entire day, life, identity was completely wrapped up in this project. And then now it's done, and there's a little part of me

that feels like I sort of trapped myself emotionally in amber, and now I'm having to face a lot of things that I don't care. I said to Jenny yesterday, I was like, I'm finding out a lot about myself, and I don't like it. Well, yeah, I mean, you had to sort of like grow up in public in a way, sort of kind of like embracing it, but also constantly defending it. Yeah. And, you know, being controversial for that long for whatever reasons came at you. But you did have to sort of do it all publicly.

So now, like, you know, the idea of silence and being thoughtful and working at a different pace, I guess you're going to figure out, you know, whether you really did grow up or not. I know because it's shocking what happens when you're alone with your own brain. And I was never alone with my own brain for the entire time I was working on the show. I don't have great success with it. I'm much better if I'm talking to somebody else. It's tough. I love to be by myself. I love to read. Like I find the greatest luxury to just be like curled up reading and writing and thinking. But I was always doing it knowing that I was returning to this incredibly immersive work environment. And now like the next, I mean, I'm working on a book that comes out in January and it's fiction.

And that's a slow, super private process that gives you plenty of time to figure out what you haven't handled. And all the time that I wasn't working on girls, I was throwing myself into causes that were important to me, which, again, like I don't regret any of it, but I didn't. There's ways I grew a lot and there's ways I grew not at all. And now I'm finding out what those are and it's not ideal. Well, it's good that you're writing a book because like, you know, you, it's funny writing as much as I hate it. You know, when you get in it, you, you know, things are revealed to you about you that you, you didn't have a, in context or a sense of.

Completely. And there's also something about writing fiction that allows you, I mean, once you're a public figure, like there's, you can't ever sort of publish something. You can't write with abandon about your own life again. That's why I like to stay a marginal public figure, you know, sort of slightly under the radar. You're not marginal to me.

Oh, thank you. It's always good seeing you. Really? Yes. And I'm glad that you ended the show and did the whole show on your terms and that you're happy with the way it went out. That means a lot. And I want you to know that

something that was very comforting to me throughout the show, just like all your listeners, was hearing your interviews and hearing how many other creative people felt lonely, scared, tortured, frustrated. You brought that out in such a clear and profound way. And I actually think some of your interviews were probably the fuel that allowed me to make it through this entire experience oh

glad to help out and i want everyone to know that his house looks just as shitty as it always has a little more fame has not changed mark maron because it smells weird in here and it looks even weirder your house smells like cats cats, dude. Okay. Well, you know, this has been good. It's time for you to go to your next junket stop. I'm not even going. I'm going to the gynecologist. Oh, okay. Well, make sure you do that on the podcast.

Okay, great. Thanks. I've already done it on my podcast. Oh, you went? Yes, I recorded myself getting a vaginal ultrasound and a morphine drip. Oh, so how did you ram ultrasound and a morphine drip. Oh. How did you ramble on the morphine drip? I was like, guys, it feels like there's balloons in my head.

Like, I was like, said to my dad, I was like, I'm really nervous. I really like morphine. And he was like, join the club, loser. Like, no one doesn't like morphine. No one's like, it's not for me. Your dad with more practical advice. Love you, Mark. Love you, Mark. Love you, too.

Well, that was fun. That was nice to see her. That was good. Now, this next dude that I talked to, Treyder i i seen him i heard about him i got his book in the mail then i saw him talk to bill maher for a second but i like the angle you know what i mean he's been doing comedy a little bit i think six or seven years but he's you know he he seems to to be an anomaly at least uh publicly uh and and you, you know, he's claiming it. You know, his book, he's the co-author of the liberal redneck manifesto, Dragging Dixie Out of the Dark.

You can get that wherever you get books. He's on tour right now. Check out his tour dates at wellreadcomedy.com. That's wellread, R-E-D, comedy.com. So this is me talking to Trey Crowder. How old are you? 30, about to be 31. So you kind of grew up with the truckers then, like you were part of your childhood?

Yeah, probably around like, like high school, early high school age is when I first found out about them or started listening to them. And I remember, I think, if I'm not mistaken,

they were like, they were the first band that I ever played for my dad that he like, dug. Like a new band. Like, here's some new guys.

First band, yeah, of mine, you know, that I like, brought to him and that he actually liked. Right. And so that's when I was like, oh, yeah, well, these guys must be super legit then or whatever.

And I started diving further into it. And I just, I don't know, it really struck a chord with me because I was like, oh, man, you can be like overtly Southern, but not in the stereotypical ways. You know what I mean? Right. and but not stare in the stereotypical ways you know what i mean you can be like progressive or intellectual or whatever too with what you're doing sure while still being explicitly southern because there's not there really isn't a lot of that right you know in pop culture and that was one of the first things that i saw especially you know from the like new newer things it was like that and it just really resonated right like, like cool, culturally progressive Southern stuff.

Right, exactly. Well, there's definitely been some pretty big literature from the South. Without a doubt, yeah. But it seems like that never, I don't know, it's like that's kept completely separate from the rest of it. You know what I mean? It didn't catch on with the working people. Right, yeah. Yeah, and as far as the perception of the south it doesn't seem like

that really seems to make a difference the fact that there's well i'm not sure that it was necessarily the greatest uh view of them like some of the falconer stuff and uh flannery o'connor yeah that was uh yeah well i mean you know for years i for years I was guilty of stereotyping the South. I think it was just easy to do because, you know, there were certainly people that fit into that stereotype and it became sort of as much a kind of, you know, I don't know if it's racist, but it definitely became a negative characterization that was very easy to do like it was almost like as comics almost any stupid voice was a southern yeah for sure always if you were gonna do if a comedian was gonna do a bit about somebody being an idiot yeah they would immediately launch into some version yeah yeah yeah yeah don't sound right to me yeah yeah yeah well it's just like and it still makes you

laugh but um but then when i started traveling there uh you know outside of my own nervousness you know i remember going there early on and it was it was still kind of uh well i don't know if it was scary but i made assumptions you know like back in the 90s early 90s i went down to raleigh or somewhere which isn't even you know the deep south is it really no but um but you know as i i traveled there to tennessee and and uh even you know parts of florida and i drove across country because like i have nothing but um good stories and decent people that i've met there and it's a beautiful country but but there still is the reality that um as a voting block right uh it still represents something i mean that's definitely true and the thing is i've never or at least i feel like i've never tried to like deny that or say that like that doesn't exist like hey the south

isn't that right isn't real like that exists those people are real they're out there my whole thing has just always been but they don't speak for us all they don't represent the entire region as a whole or whatever you know what i mean like sure yeah when i say we i mean liberals progressives whatever are in the minority down there without a doubt but it's still that's still a sizable amount of people just in terms of you know even if it's you know 30 and it's higher in a lot of places but 30 or 40 percent of the people there i mean you know that's millions of southerners sure who aren't who aren't that right we are still the minority without a doubt well i mean so where did you grow up uh i grew up in a tiny little town called salina tennessee where's that near so uh knoxville's on the east side of the state. Nashville's in the middle. Almost directly between Knoxville and Nashville and then 40 miles up on the Kentucky line.

We had no traffic lights in my hometown, no Walmarts, no McDonald's, nothing. I mean, it's rural. Really? Very. Like what, just a post office and a store? There was two grocery stores, post office. There was a dollar store, three liquor stores when I was a kid. But no, we had a Dairy Queen.

How big is your family? Well, so my mom's side of the family is actually pretty big because her mom, my mama cat, my grandma, she had eight brothers and sisters. So there was a lot of them. But a lot of them left and went north before I was born for work or whatever yeah so i would only see them for reunions and stuff but then i kind of i'm not i'm only i've only kept in touch really with a cup with a few of them honestly of your mother's mother's my mom's just my mom's side of the family second cousins and whatnot yeah first and second so my mom only had one sister, my aunt. Yeah.

She passed away. She had two sons, my first cousins. One of them passed away. Her husband passed away. So like- How'd your cousin pass away? He OD'd. He did?

There's a lot of that in my family. Oh, really? Yeah. My mom, in fact, is an addict. I mean, like in recovery now, but you know the deal. She's always an addict. Opiates? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Pill billies. Yeah. They got caught up in it. Big time. And your cousin, too? Yeah. He OD'd in 2015.

Really? Recently? Yeah. On Oxy or heroin? Oxy's. Really? Yeah. And so in terms of the extended family, you just don't keep in touch because of ideological reasons or just because they're out in the world?

And, you know, I mean, I don't keep in touch with mine either. Well, honestly, I don't know how fair this is or not or whatever. But so, like I said, my mom was an addict and she was kind of in and out of jail some too when I was growing up. So, like, we have a relationship now. It's okay whatever but like you know she wasn't around a whole lot for a long stretch when i was growing up yeah and my only connection to that side of my family was her mom my grandma and uh she passed away of just old age bad health yeah 2010 yeah and after that i just kind of and she was like the last link right to

that side of family you know what i mean sure i don't really have anything against most of them but i just don't right i don't really keep in contact and and uh but your mom's doing better yeah she is she's doing better and the thing like you know i came to realize i got older like she has a lot of addicts she has genuine mental health problems right and i mean so she still deals with that but in terms of like her addiction i mean yes she's clean and has been clean uh you know for a good little bit now a few years and you never had any problems me no no not with that i haven't i don't feel like i've i mean you know i like to drink yeah right yeah don't count it out uh but no no i never really

drifted into that because of the all the shit i've seen yeah i could go either way you know i talk to people like that all the time like either you're gonna you're gonna be that or you're gonna never be that right yeah and i but i mean again you know i you know i like to drink i've been a big drinker so you grew up with your dad primarily my dad uh raised me uh me and my sister i have one sibling younger sister yeah my dad pretty much raised us uh and he passed away of pancreatic cancer in 2013 oh my god but he was uh sorry buddy that's all right thank you he was uh he was an awesome dude he loved us a whole lot but he didn't really we he we didn't have much you know what i mean like we were super poor like

what was he did what did he do well when i was a kid uh he actually owned and operated a uh video store remember those things those relics of a bygone era not a chain store but like a local crowders video oh he had his own business yeah and uh that did okay there for you know when i was younger yeah just like but then in my insulina right uh for years and years the center of the town's economy was this big uh clothing factory yeah uh oshkosh bagosh sure the overall over they made overalls yeah and in the 90s after nafta that left and uh it utterly decimated the town's like it's still to this day it's in bad shape and that had a ripple effect with my dad's business and everything.

But honestly, it probably wouldn't have even mattered because he actually got sick shortly after that. He got Hep C. He got hepatitis C. And that sort of knocked him out of, because back then, I know, I've heard, like, now. Was he a drug user, too? I mean, we didn't really talk about it. And I know when I was growing up, if he was, I know it wasn't a huge didn't really talk about it and i know when i was growing up if he was i know it wasn't a huge issue because he was always there and everything you know what

i mean if he wasn't you know what i'm saying yeah but now back in the day i mean when him and my mom were younger whatever i mean yeah he was and so like i said nowadays apparently hep c there's that's yeah you can do it you can it cost a bit right you can knock it out even but back then you know and this is like late 90s or whatever like he was on interferon interferon or everything and level you man i mean it fucked him up bad you know and so he couldn't work and that sort of knocked him out of that but by and but then like i said i mean the business honestly was going down anyway so it was about to get rough for us no matter what basically and you were how old uh i mean around 11 yeah something like that so what in in the town like so you were 11 or 12 when oshkosh closed no i was about that was i was like 9 10 something like that and i'm saying

people like held out you know what i mean for a couple years you know what i'm saying trying to make it work before it really like yeah so i'm saying the business was starting to decline anyway and then his health did too and then that was so that would that like really is sort of the the you know uh a fund like an example of exactly what leveled the whole area yeah right that you know that a lot of these economic issues that are people are so angry about now and what was really, I think, made people vulnerable to the opiate epidemic and everything else. But how did you get out of there? You went to high school there and everything?

Yeah. Did you play ball or anything? I played football, but I mean, I wasn't much of a football player. I mean, I was okay, but it was 1A ball and I was like a lineman. Right. I'm six foot tall. Like, I wasn't going to go to college to play offensive line. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So, I mean, I did, but I always made really good grades. Yeah. So, from very early on, my dad and his dad, my paternal grandfather, they like, it was always, you know, you're going to go to college and you're going to, you know. Oh, yeah? You're going to be a lawyer, a doctor or something big like that. Yeah.

Like even back then, I would be like, well, I think I'd rather be a comedian, you know, or whatever. And like, yeah. And my, so like my grandpa and a lot of like teachers and people like that, when they heard that, they'd be like, what? No, no. Yeah. Go to medical school.

You know, what the hell is wrong with you? Yeah. But my dad, he was always like, hell yeah, I think that'd be cool think that'd be cool shit you know or whatever like that's just how he was so uh but i still went to college just my thinking was if i go to college uh i don't want to do the whole starving artist thing i don't want to wait tables and stuff like that because i've been you know i've had enough of being broke as hell yeah so i'm gonna go to college and i'm gonna get a like a degree that lets me just get any kind of job where i can actually make money while i try to be a writer or comedian or whatever that's what i was thinking so that's what i did when you were a kid though

like like as you got into high school you know in this area because i mean the book you wrote the liberal redneck manifesto i mean you are mean, you are an agenda-driven comedian, and it's a good angle at this point. You've been doing comedy a little while. But, I mean, what started to sort of inform that? I mean, were you, like when you were in high school after the factory closed, could you see your classmates and everybody drifting into something that was different than you remember when you were a kid i mean i definitely was aware of like i gotta get the hell out of here you know what i mean because if i don't it's not gonna be good because i see plenty of people that don't and i knew that that was important a lot of that stuff though i didn't i didn't really gain a good perspective on i don't think the economic realities right exactly until later because the thing is because of the way that it was there whatever everybody

most everybody was in the same boat in large part and so like my frame of reference was just so fucked up in that way right when you say the economic reality is coming from a poverty stricken area there's just a lot of shit i didn't understand until later and like looking back on it like oh damn that was poverty you know what i mean like abject poverty and at the time it's just me and all my buddies were like that right and what did was there a point where you know something changed your heart or changed your mind were you surrounded by by uh uh you know uh hopelessness what was the the social tone when you were in high school? I mean, uh, I actually, I tell people often, and again, this was something that I didn't realize

until looking back. I used to be even more defensive about the South back when I was younger. I'd be like, it's not that bad. It's not like that or whatever. But I come to find out later, it was just that my hometown, oddly enough, just wasn't as bad in those like stereotypical hateful ways or whatever and what i chalked that up to is we actually there's actually a black community there yeah and like in a lot of towns of that size like very rural parts of the south uh they don't really have that a lot of times and so that's where you get like my wife's hometown there no black people at all yeah and so i think that made a big difference as far as that thing that as far as all that went because i didn't really see i heard stories of people in neighboring towns

like putting a noose and like a black kids like the only black kids locker or something like that and i was always like really like i could never imagine that happening uh when i was growing up right because i mean shit dude my my buddies black guys i grew up with they whip your ass right like that but there was but there but also it was a little is integrated and there was a black community and you know that gave you a different perspective but you didn't feel a lot of hate or a lot of tension in your world no i dealt well i had to i would get very defensive about my uncle a lot my dad's brother he's gay and i and i knew that did he live down there no not at the time he does now because of my grandma his mom yeah she's i mean her husband my grandpa died her other son my dad died so my uncle was sticking around there like taking care of her basically he

got out he i mean he went to nashville he lived in nashville for most of his adult life oh yeah yeah but but people like knew that he was gay or whatever you know what i mean so like i would just i didn't get like physically picked on i was always kind of a bigger kid yeah but like people just make cracks and shit all the time about him being you know a fag or whatever just that kind of i mean yeah that kind of shit and so that i've always been very defensive and very passionate about like you know gay rights and things like that. Sure, sure. From a very early... And that's also why I quit fucking with Jesus at the age that I... Yeah.

Were you brought up pretty heavy? Not compared to most people there. My mom's side of the family, and I already explained some of that, a lot of them went to church and whatnot. And so me and my sister would just go too, just because that's just what you do. Yeah. But then... Jesus is part of it.

Yeah, but then when i found out that my uncle was gay when i mean i was like nine that's also when i found out what gay even was right when i found out my uncle was gay i started noticing shit that otherwise had been flying over my head about you know them being abominations and that kind of shit you know i mean like the sort of rhetoric that southern baptists are known for in regards to you know what i mean like the sort of rhetoric that southern baptists are known for in regards to you know um homosexuals and i started i was like oh wait a minute hold on what the fuck who you know you don't even know my uncle man like that kind of attitude sure sure and so i was like well i fuck that you know what i mean yeah and i when i told my dad i was like i don't think i want

to go anymore he was just like well hell yeah you whatever. Turn the skid back up. You know what I mean? Like, cause he didn't go either probably because his brother was gay, I guess. But so that, you know, I left pretty early, which I think also. And what was your grandmother's tolerance of it all? My uncle's mom. Yeah. His mom. She, she was great.

Yeah. And still is. Yeah. She was always, you know, it's that a mother's love thing. You know what I mean? She loves the shit out of him. She was always, you know, it's that mother's love thing. You know what I mean?

She loves the shit out of him. And like they, him and his partner, Uncle Mike, for years and years, they always, I saw them together all the time. Like they always were there at Christmas and Thanksgiving and whatever else. And like my, the deal with my grandpa was like, you know, we just didn't really talk about it. But like, I mean, he knew what was going on and they were still welcome there. And he still hugged his son and all that stuff. Tolerance. Yeah, tolerance. Yeah, exactly.

All right, so you get out. Where do you go to college? Tennessee Tech University. Where's that at? It's in Cookville, the place I was telling you of Tennessee, at first. And literally right as I was in the process of moving down there, my grandpa, my dad's dad, I was just talking about, he passed away. Massive heart attack. And that hit me real hard because he was sort of the authoritarian figure in my life. Right, yeah.

And so I came back home with the intent of just starting a semester late, just going to UT in the spring. Yeah. But my guidance counselor taught me to go into tech instead because she was afraid that, like so many other kids from there, I just wouldn't ever go back. Right. She was like, so you can go here. You'll be close to home. And then you can transfer to UT later. And so that was the plan.

But I ended up liking it there. So I just stayed in Cookville. Yeah. Yeah. And what did you get the degree in? Yeah. And what did you get the degree in? They have a thing called the Plus One Program where you can major in whatever and take business courses and then get an MBA if you go to business school after that.

Oh, yeah. So that's what I did. So I got an MBA. My undergrad is in psychology. Really? Yeah. Just because I was interested in it. I knew I was doing the MBA thing.

Yeah. And I know you can't do shit with a bachelor's in psychology. Right. I'm aware of that right it didn't matter the mba was what mattered and so i was just interested in psych so that's what i did yeah what did you did you learn anything from psych i mean i've forgotten it all you know what i mean like i feel like i was i knew shit about it at the time but i've you know it's mostly gone now so the and so then you went to graduate school or you went to business school yeah well it was uh four semesters oh yeah that i did all like back to back to back so it's and then and then what were you set up to do uh so that was the high that was 2009 like the height

of the recession i was working at a bar for like five months afterwards i was like jesus what did i do i fucked up you know but then i just the first job i was able to find was with the u.s department of energy in oak ridge tennessee you are you familiar with oak the manhattan project oh yeah the manhattan project was split between oak ridge tennessee and los alamos new mexico that's where i grew up and uh and so oak ridge is where they enriched the plutonium that was then shipped to New Mexico and put into the bombs or whatever. Well, that was the precursor to the DOE, and they just never left. They're still there. They still have a –

The lab? The ORNL, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Y-12 Nuclear Weapons Complex. There's a particle accelerator there, a bunch of wild shit. High security situation? Very much so, yeah. Still in use? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. a bunch of wild shit high security situation very much so still in use yeah oh yeah yeah and they're building a big multi-billion dollar brand new nuclear facility out there right now for energy or for defense defense oh really and what so what was your job there i was a contracting officer so you know the federal government they don't really do anything they just contracted out to private industry. I handled that. I negotiated and awarded and like administered federal contracts. To subcontracting companies that do the stuff.

Yeah. I was like lower level. So like I was mostly like, you know, contractors that like mow the grass or, you know, mop the floors or whatever. Bring the food in. Yeah, yeah. That kind of thing. That's what I did. No national security clearance. contractors that like mow the grass or you know mop the floors or whatever yeah yeah that that kind of thing that's what i did no national security clearance no i mean well i had a i had a q clearance which is like a top secret equivalent or whatever because i just i had to but i mean i never i did see some shit that i think technically was like nuclear secrets but i didn't i didn't

understand it was all in like i'd have to be a nuclear engineer to even know what the fuck they were talking like you're walking into a room and seeing a chalkboard or something? Right, that kind of stuff. Or they talk about it in the meeting. I'm in there for business reasons, but all that stuff, it was like classified, whatever. But I mean, you couldn't get it out of me even if you tried, because I don't know what the fuck it meant anyway. Right, so what were you experiencing in terms of the realities of of government or how did that shift your brain at all did you did you feel like you were doing working for something bad no no not really

because i mean as far as so doe is split into doe and then under that is the nnsa national nuclear security administration that's all the nukes shit i was with doe so it was all like i was i was paid by the office of science so technically i was working to support the doe's science missions and stuff so i felt philosophically or whatever i felt okay about it you know what i mean right i did and then that's another thing with all this shit with me allowing me to quit that job and everything that i've done one of the main things i'm most grateful for now in retrospect is that i'll never have to work for fucking rick perry who's now the secretary of energy you know when i was there it was a nobel laureate and after that the head of physics and energy at mit

right and now it's rick perry so uh yeah yeah glad to not be there anymore well did you feel that we were surrounded by like what smart people or that you know that yeah a lot of a lot of smart people yeah people trusted the leadership yeah i mean yes i did i didn't feel like that but also a lot of these people are like lifers like a lot of feds they tend to not leave because i mean it's a pretty good gig as far as that shit goes yeah and so they you adopt this philosophy over time that it's like it you know they do the work regardless of who the main the top guy is most of them seemingly right so they'll keep doing the same shit with perry there too right i assume and well you got health coverage and everything yeah

all that so why'd you quit because uh i have made some videos that went viral and comedy became an actual viable option were you doing stand-up when you were there yeah i started i started at side splitters in knoxville was my home club were you doing the kind of jokes you were doing now then yeah i mean i've always kind of done uh you know tried to be non-stereotypically southern humor you know what i mean like the videos and stuff the whole liberal redneck thing it not everything I do is overtly political, but it's always been in that vein of I'm not what you think I am based off how I look and how I sound or whatever. Right.

You know what I mean? I don't say the things you expect me to say. Did you feel like there was pushback on that? From the club or just from crowds or whatever? I mean, yeah, depending on what it was about because some of their their rules like it had to be church clean they called it i couldn't say damn it or hell or nothing and so any kind of remotely risque topics you know they'd be like you don't do that the hosts don't do that really yeah yeah uh but i would i was still even that was my home club i was going down to chattanooga

going to nashville or doing alt just whatever, like super early on. And then I started, you know, hitting the road a little more. How many years in are you when you do these videos? Five and a half. Five and a half years. So, and that was a couple years ago? That was a year ago. A year ago.

So what prompted you to do them? Well, so, like I said, I was doing the same kind of thing on stage for a while. And I had this bit that I thought was like my signature bit i closed with it a lot or whatever and it was very similar to the videos the bit was basically me you know yelling bunch of liberal shit in an extremely redneck fashion after setting it up right and i never said the words liberal redneck but if i made a set list or whatever that bit was entitled liberal redneck right right and my close buddies that were comics i started telling them about two years ago i was like i think i want to do a video series about this and then i went to uh i did this writer's workshop that nbc does i got into that

and went to 30 rock or whatever in 2015 you did you went up to new york yeah that nbc does this late night writer's workshop program yeah you can like submit to or whatever and I got into it in 2015 and went up there and introduced whatever the liberal redneck character to them up there as part of that workshop and they like you know they loved it they were like you need to do something with that right so how long is that workshop uh it's just a week you go up there for a week is it like connected to SNL or something they'll bring in like SNL writers or Seth Meyers writers or Jimmy Fallon writers, stuff like that. Uh-huh. I mean, so, yes.

Did you learn anything? Yeah, I think so. As far as that kind of writing specifically. I mean, it was an awesome experience. I loved it. Especially at the time, it was great. First time in New York? Yeah, that was my first time in New York, period.

Did they put you up? No, I slept in my buddy's basement in queens uh comedian mattress pat yeah one of the guys on tour with me drew morgan's his name but uh so yeah they love the character and everybody them and my friends like you should do something with it and but i in my head i was like man i'll have to i'll have to save up money and buy a camera i'll have to learn how to edit i don't want to look like an amateur hell you know like that's what i was thinking right and then early last year i saw this video that went viral among the far right so like people i know from salina or whatever were posting it sharing it and it was a preacher in north carolina but about my age like people

you knew from home were posting it yeah and like so it's a guy, early 30s, preacher in North Carolina, standing in the woods by a big jacked-up truck, just yelling in his iPhone about the transgender bathroom laws and perverts in the bathrooms and Jesus will strike them down and all that stuff. And it had 15 million views. And I had, it's like a light bulb went off. I was like, if that's what I'm trying to satirize or make fun of, and it is, I don't need any of that fancy shit.

I can just do it exactly the way he does it, and hell, it might even play better that way. Right. And so I just went out a few days later and made the first one, and it got like 70,000 views on Facebook, and I was over the moon. I was thrilled. Yeah. And I told my buddies, I was like, look, hey, people like it. I'm going to keep this up. And then the second one I made was about the HB2 laws,

and it ended up getting like over 25 million views or whatever. And that's when my entire life changed was after that. Yeah? Yeah. What happened? Well, I got all these followers on social media overnight. I put on there that I was like, yes, I'm a comedian. This is supposed to be funny.

Having said that, I really do believe these things. I really am from that kind of background or whatever. What was the thrust of it? That one, it was about those transgender bathroom laws. And I basically was just saying, like, you know, you know, transgender people been around forever. Right. And how many times have you ever heard about what you're worried about happening actually happening? Yeah. And also, what about little boys?

The vast majority of kids that are molested or whatever are little boys. And so unless you want to start making separate bathrooms for Catholic priests, you need to shut the fuck up or whatever. Right, right, yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah. And that was, like I said, it just blew up. So it blew up, changed your life, but now you're politicized. Yes, yes, that's true.

So now having spent time in that arena, that means right out of the gate, you're dealing with contention, a divided audience, that you're drawing a line. Yep. And you're one of their own yeah so i imagine the northerners the yankees yeah they're sort of like we got something here let's parade him around right i mean yeah you know and and then like uh and then they're like thank you good luck with everything right well you know you know, hell, we'll see how it goes. What opportunities happen right away? Right away, people online started. When I said I was a comedian, they were like, are you coming to Fort Lauderdale?

Are you coming to Philadelphia? You know, whatever. You had nothing on the books. And I was like, and I had actually, for about six months, I had a manager out here. Because I had come out here a few times. I came out here and did a show in Santa Monica at Westside Comedy Theater. And a manager out here because i had come out here a few times i came out here did a show in santa monica at west side comedy theater and a manager saw me and so i had she was my representation at the time and so we started talking like you think we could tour i could actually tour off this shit and i mean i was sweating it man because there's a huge difference

between clicking like on facebook and like paying money and leaving your house and going to a show or whatever how much time did you have as a comic uh at that time like five and a half years well i mean how much oh i'm sorry how much time did i have that i could do uh i mean i could at the like stuff i thought was great about 30 right you know uh stuff i would be willing to do 45 or an hour but it's like strong features strong yeah right right and uh and so i we put this to a practice a trial run of a tour a week-long trial run with me and the two guys i co-wrote the book with who are also progressive southern comics so it's like thematic you know yeah and we did that and the first night was at the punchline in atlanta and it was on a sunday night and we sold out two shows and ge, and George Wallace came and watched the show and went on stage with us and whatever else.

And this was about a month after the video had first been posted, and that was the first time where I was like, oh, shit, this is a real thing. Yeah. And then I got the book deal and a development deal with Warner Brothers, developing a sitcom right now in the process of that, and then just toured heavily last year. Those are the major things that have come of it so far. And I was on Bill Maher. Yeah, I saw you on there. I've done a lot of media things like that or whatever. But when you are in the position you're in, and what is the, in the book, it's a joke book, but it's also like something that makes us, me, and represent uh you know progressive ideas yeah and uh and that and and what what in the book is practical information i mean what was

the what was the sort of agenda of the book other than it being a joke book well we tried to in addition to like you said it's trying to explain what the south really is or is not to people who don't really know or understand the south we also tried to like tell how we think the south can do better about things like for example like in the chapter on racism it's like let's fucking get rid of all these monuments to confederate generals let's stop fucking flying the flag and get over the goddamn civil war you know i mean let's leave that shit in the past yeah that kind of thing right i mean but you know grant i mean in reality the people who we are addressing that to a lot i mean a lot of them are not even going

to read the book in the first place you know what i mean like those shitty people shitty southerners right and now they're now they're empowered now it seems that they've won yeah recently the possibility of the country being you know if not temporarily maybe permanently divided along those lines seems like a real possibility yeah for sure so when you were when you were touring like how much pushback did you get from did did the south disown you did was there was there no well i mean okay this is separate from the tour but like my hometown salina for example you know i mean there's a lot of people praying for me you know what i mean back home uh but they're not lashing out at you i mean a couple have here and there like on facebook or whatever i know not in

i've went home a couple times see my grandma or whatever and nobody's tried to give me what fur at the ride aid or nothing you know but like uh as far as the tour though like the shows our best shows have been in the south and because the people that are coming they know what they're signing up for they're familiar with me or my videos or whatever so they know what they're getting into yeah and they get it on like every level you know what i mean because it's like not just oh we're liberals and we like the message behind this but also we're southerners and we're liberals so we appreciate that message too or whatever so our best shows have been in the south we haven't had a single because you found an audience they're relieved right yeah oh yeah they got a show they can go to and be who they are.

So many people have said to us after shows, you know, something along the lines of finally, you know what I mean? Finally, there's something like that, you know, that represents who I am. Right. You know what I mean? Right. Because I'm not, you know, I'm not the stereotypical Southerner either. And there's, you know, this hasn't been a thing before.

Well, okay. So given that, like, you know, now you found this hasn't well thing before well okay so given that they like you know now you found this audience of like-minded people and obviously they were there like you said they've they've always been there what you know how any and i know you're just a comic but but you know it comes down to you know what do we do with those you know the people that you know can't see past their their hatred or their religious beliefs i mean you know how like how do you deal with them in in your life have you had to in in your family or or you know just in general coming from where you're coming from do you have to sit

down and have conversations with them yeah for sure not in my family as much anymore because all the reasons i told you earlier yeah the people I keep in touch with are very small and they're mostly on my, on the same wavelength. Yeah. But yeah, growing up and over the years, I mean, yes,

all the time. And I've, my approach to that has always been like, I don't back off of what my opinion is or whatever else, you know what I mean? I don't, but I also, you know,

I don't shut down either. Like I'll talk with them about it as long as they want to, you know? And I try to just be honest about it or whatever. And I don't flip out and be like, you know i don't shut down either like i'll talk with them about it as long as they want to you know and i try to just be honest about it or whatever and i don't flip out and be like you know what you're a fucking piece of shit man or whatever you know i just try to talk to them about it and some of them they'll you know they'll be like oh hell whatever you know what i mean like eventually and then just shut down or you know i've never had anybody get like tried to get physical with me over my political beliefs so far honestly they usually just i fuck him and you know what do you find are the biggest you know you know um touch points of resistance i mean obviously you know i

assume that that you know before whatever's happening now is happening that you know if someone was racist they weren't necessarily a proud racist no yeah right and and uh so that you know that i imagine that wasn't part of the discussion but outside of social issues you know what do you find the the issues that people have are that are that are kind of um unchange you know, in terms of what are they defending? Well, they're – okay, right now I'm talking specifically about my hometown, but there's a lot of my hometowns out there. And like I said, their quality of life has just went off a cliff in the past, you know, 20 years or whatever. And they just – so like you said earlier, you said they're vulnerable. I mean, they're desperate.

Like, they just want things to get better. And they think that, you know, so when they hear, oh, we're going to bring your jobs back and whatever else, you know, hell yeah, sounds good to me. You know what I mean? They just want their lives to not be as shitty as they've become. It's not an ideological thing. It's just, you know, it's just sort of like hopelessness and anger. Yes. Because it's out of their control and all of a sudden it's all gone.

Yeah, exactly. And they think, you know, liberal America or whatever just doesn't give a fuck about them at all. You know what I mean? Like that's the perception that they have. And they also think that liberal America thinks that, you know, they're all stupid, they're all racist, whatever else. And so that causes them to just lash out. You know what I mean? They ain't voting liberal or whatever because fuck them big city liberals think they're better than me.

That whole kind of attitude is definitely real. Right. Using the word liberal is some sort of derogatory thing without really connecting anything to it right yeah hard yeah i know i i've heard that and i and i see that around i think that's a that's an old rush limbaugh that's an old one right right libtards but it seems to me that when i really think about it that you know had things like they got to blame somebody right yes yeah exactly and you know they can blame the government and then when someone speaks to that like yeah the government's awful and then gets into office and then just does the same fucking thing you know just new guys different government usually worse

what what i don't always understand is how they can keep you know just shifting the blame to whatever makes their anger feel better when the blame you know lies on in policy it's bizarre to me because you know liberal ideas i you know what what would you say are the liberal ideas that you're presenting you know as uh you know when you have conversations with these people or as a southerner what are the ones that that that you think are like the misunderstanding lies in well okay it's weird to me that like the problem with like welfare and food stamps and stuff like that when so many of these people are also poor or whatever but like you know and some on welfare right exactly but i need my food

stamps you know what i mean that but these motherfuckers they're lazy right you know what i mean like there's a hypocrisy to it for sure sure. And a lot of them, too, though, are like, and I'm not saying my in-laws are like that, but what they are is they're in that income class where they're not getting food stamps and all that kind of shit, but they're not doing great either. Right. You know what I mean? And there's a lot of people that are like that, and they blame people on food stamps and whatever else for being lazy and just abusing the system and wasting all their money and all this kind of shit.

And that always really bothered me. And they're paying for that. Yes, exactly. They think they're paying. And like I grew, you know, I mean, I grew up on food stamps. You know what I mean? So I've always I've always been very, I guess, defensive about that. But also, like, it just doesn't track for me because, you know, like, really, those are the bad.

Those are the bad guys. Right. You know what I mean? Not the motherfuckers who, you know, are wasting so much of our money on all this other shit. And they think, like with Trump, they think they are voting in their own self-interest right now. You know what I mean? Or, well, in November. You know what I mean?

Because, hell, he's going to bring my job back. You know, that does represent their interest to them. Sure. Yeah. back he's gonna you know that that does represent their interest sure to them you know that makes yeah and it's like even if liberal ideals economic ones were in their self-interest from before well they didn't i mean clearly they didn't feel that way so you know i would argue that you know that's still some kind of failure because we didn't convince them or whatever you know what i mean like the uh affordable care act business like i

have to assume a lot of people that are in dire straits are on that and i you know and i and i imagine they they some of them voted for trump yeah there's a thing it's when it's been on going around the internet some somebody's been accumulating different social media posts from just regular people that say something about like uh finally get rid of that sorry ass obamacare you know my aca coverage is so much better thank god i've got aca well that's just not a but you know what i mean and i mean yeah lack of but being properly informed i mean that seems to be the the real hinge to everything i completely agree everybody's in there everybody just gets their sources from or their news and information from the sources they've picked out already.

Right, but so many people, like even myself, we all do that on one side or the other because to take the time to actually source information properly is a whole other leap. Yeah, I mean, that's true. And if you're just in a loop of Facebook posts of people that they've already, you know, targeted you as somebody that gets off on that, whatever the ideology of those posts are, then it comes to you. You're like, well, this is the news. There's still plenty of people that think like, well, it's on the Internet. You can just Google it. And that's enough to sort of like, you know, kind of like liven your anger or justify your point of view, you know, when you're in pain or in dire straits, you're going to gravitate towards that because at least that feels good.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I've honestly, and I mean mean i'm very guilty of that too when it comes to just you know reading something and if it's you know fits my narrative or whatever as long as it's not from some you know bumfuck.com or whatever i'll probably go with it sure like you said we all do that to an extent i know i've had to become very aware of it like you know i'm saying something like what do i really know about this other than I read a headline? Right. I heard that, you know. But I've tried.

I've made like a concerted effort over the years to not like, like a lot of people I know when people say some shit on Facebook that they don't agree with politically or whatever, they'll either block or remove them. And like that kind of curating your own bubble in that way. Like I've tried hard over the years to not do that to like keep keep those people around or in touch with what's going on with them or whatever because i mean a lot of people i grew up with hell a lot of them are like you know they're friends of mine and that's another thing too like i know so many people that that voted for trump or that other people in other parts of the

country would be like oh god you're what's wrong with amer. And I'm like, no, man, he's a good dude. He's a good guy. I love that guy. Sure. I know people in our business, and we have maybe some common friends that did that. And I talk about that a little in my act, just sort of like trying to understand. Yeah, it's complex in the sense that you know outside of their hatred for hillary which was you know probably maybe some of it is is based in in in real policy but a lot of it was just demonization but also republicans are republicans a lot of them and a lot of people don't give a

fuck after the d you know once all right we won get over it like it's done that the nuances of of of government they're just not they don't know right and on both sides yeah they're just sort of like you know like it's not part of their everyday life they're just like and now we yeah the fact that we have a president where he's not just going to go do his job he's going to tweet all day long like usually he's just sort of like yeah do his job. He's going to tweet all day long. Like, usually he's just sort of like, all right, well, I don't like getting involved for you, but go do whatever you're going to do. But now every day we've got to deal with, like, what? What happened?

What did he say? I know. And I mentioned this when I was on Real Time, and Bill was kind of like, really? You really think so? But, like, another thing that's crazy about the whole Trump thing to me is like, I know because I know these people. If you would have polled, I mean, what became his base, rural, working class, white Americans, whatever. If you would have polled most of those, especially the men, five, however many years before he started calling Obama out, you know, a man for being Kenyan or what the fuck ever. Before that, if you'd have polled them, what do you think about Donald Trump?

I guarantee you it would have been almost across the board negative. Yeah. He's a fucking billionaire, silver spoon up his ass, know-it-all Yankee who thinks he's better than everybody and, you know, whatever else. Like, that is not their kind of guy. Like, he's really not just as a person or as a, you know, whatever, a personality. And that's what was blowing my mind about it the whole time. I was looking around, again, at friends of mine or whatever. It's like, fucking really?

That guy? Yeah. And I think it just shows how desperate they had become for somebody, for a champion or whatever, that even Donald Trump was good enough for them in that regard. Yeah. You know what I mean? Well, even W was a silver spoon,

but, like, he seemed to be some sort of renegade uh you know doofus right yeah yeah that he was folksy yeah yeah yeah but he was like you know he was the oddball of that family and that you know he was the one that could never get his shit together and actually grew up texan in a way yeah yeah well i don't so what what well i mean you're just a comic but um yeah but you know mine i just i say that a lot i feel like you know it's like there's people like well we're desperate too i mean that's the thing is like you know i don't think that whoever they're calling liberals or democrats or whatever that you know they you know we don't understand some things but i don't think it's fundamentally not understanding the life that they're leading. But, you know, we don't understand, you know, intolerance or

fear of diversity or, you know, or a fear of education. Like there are things that are practical that are going to get lost in this dialogue. And I mean, and we on some level, you know, have to be more aware of that and we can't you know just you know you draw the line i don't know how we start to bridge the gap yeah well i i mean you're right you know as far as the intolerance and all that yes fuck all that there's no concessions to be made on those fronts right i completely agree but what i've told people we've had conversations about you know my people whatever rural americans is like especially in my hometown in a place like that to me it's it's kind of

ridiculous to actually think or believe that a lot of those people who are so motivated by how shitty their lives are and getting their job back in their way a lot back or whatever else yeah that they care more about uh you know muslims or terrorists or whatever right now don't now that shit don't hurt i'm not saying i mean either way they go along with it right which is still shitty as hell right without a doubt right but like to a lot of people seem to believe that like oh no that's the thing that's what motive that's what they love about trump is all that stuff that's why they're on board yeah and i just i mean i don't think that's true i think it was the other shit that he sold them economically or whatever and they were like look if you can do that you know whatever fine fuck it

like and also the other the idea that there's this mythological america that's been lost right yes exactly and you know maybe you know generations ago obviously things were different and people could earn an honest living you know that was lost but there has been you know a lot of progress made you know culturally and uh and politically that is now going to be lost in the name of getting back to this idea of what america was yeah you know i don't know if he's going to bring back the manufacturing base whatever i mean i would be stunned if any of that happens not regardless of policy or whatever just you know automation you know what i mean robots and shit like a lot of those jobs they're not they're not coming back and like i think there's a huge

reckoning that we're all going to have to have especially these people when it really reaches that tipping point where you know they just aren't those jobs you know because you mentioned earlier they're proud to not be on welfare food stamp they're very proud of that right they don't need nobody's help right it's going to reach a point where you know the actual feasible route might be you know universal basic income or something like that because we just don't have job and i know how that shit is gonna play right with these people and i don't i don't know what the fuck's gonna happen when all when we finally do reach that point my fear is that the fuck it vote right is really existentially like you know let's end the whole thing

right yeah i think some of them some people basically just fucking say that you know, let's end the whole thing. Right. Yeah. I think some of them, some people basically just fucking say that. You know what I mean? Just like, yeah, fuck it. Blow it all up. Blow it all up. Start all over. Yeah, exactly. I definitely think there's an element of that out there.

And yeah, that scares the fuck out of me. Well, yeah, because that's like a complete existential crisis. The same sort of like hopelessness and dark desperation that leads to, you know, a devastating opium epidemic is is nihilistic in nature. That the idea of getting into a relationship with that drug, not being able to get out of it, but but that sense of sort of like, you know, fuck it. It's over. This is not as shitty as the alternative. Right. I mean, anything is better than the alternative, you know, like even if it's getting strung out on fucking pills or, you know, blowing the whole thing. Hey, can't be worse.

Right. That's what a lot of people think, you know. Yeah. I don't know what divining, you know, it's a scary time. glad that you're uh at least speaking for for those who have uh you know care about other people uh and believe in the idea of uh of a inclusive and tolerant democracy i just like you know right now i mean it's probably pretty good for business for you right yeah yeah i mean i can't no no you know i would i would rather we not be in this position. Right.

But I mean, yes, it's not, you know, it's not going to be bad for me, I don't think. Unless it's bad for everybody all at once. Yes, exactly. Exactly, yeah. So what is the sitcom? How'd that pitch happen? What's the show idea? So, you know, Warner Brothers had come to me, wanted to do a development deal, but they

wanted to- Because of the book? No, because of the videos. Oh, yeah. And they came and saw some of my live shows and whatever, scouted me a little bit. See if you got the goods. And then I signed a deal with them, and they were like, here's the deal. We want your voice, but you don't know what the fuck you're doing.

You know what I mean? They were more diplomatic, but they're like, you're brand new to this, so we're going to pair you with somebody. A writer. But you will have a say in that. Sure. You'll go through that whole that's the way they go so i did all that and i got paired up uh these two guys rob thomas and john imbaum yeah they co-created rob thomas has been around for a while he has he did veronica mars yeah and uh him and john did uh party down yeah oh sure sure yeah and uh rob does iZombie right now. Anyway, I got, and Rob's from Texas, right? So I got partnered with them, and then the show concept we put together was, you know, based around my life or my point of view, but it's not autobiographical or anything.

But, you know, I mentioned earlier, Oak Ridge National Lab, all that shit in Oak Ridge. Oak Ridge National Lab, all that shit in Oak Ridge. So it's like a guy who grew up poor in a trailer or whatever in a town like that, like Oak Ridge, Tennessee, where it's a shitty little redneck town, except there's also these world-class scientific facilities or whatever. Right, right. He left at 18, never wanted to come back or whatever, but now at like 30, he's got a job opportunity. He's a scientist. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's got a job opportunity he can't pass up at the lab. Right.

And so he's moving back home with his wife from California to work at this lab in the town where he grew up. So now he's surrounded again by his old redneck buddies and his, you know. With his wife from California and his highfalutin job. Yeah, exactly. And his mom is just getting out of prison. Oh, wow. Again, that's somewhat autobiographical. Where are you in the process?

Where are you in the development process? We're writing the pilot right now. We actually just turned it in, so. Oh, good. How did it come out? Good? I mean, yes, I feel good about it. I've been stressing about it like a motherfucker, unsurprisingly.

Yeah. But, I mean, I feel pretty good about it, so it so all right man so we'll see how it goes well congrats on the success and uh you know i i hope uh the best for all of us and it's nice that you're out there uh providing that uh connectivity and relief for uh for like-minded people i just hope that at some point uh hopefully the the effect will spread. Yeah, right. I know. I hear you.

Believe me, me too. I hope so too. All right, buddy. Thank you. All right. Well, that was interesting in terms of getting to know somebody from a different part of the country

than me with, you know know some real life experience about it and i'm glad he's out there talking maybe i'll play some guitar Thank you. Boomer lives! Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.