WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 789 - Raoul Peck

Episode Date: February 26, 2017

Filmmaker Raoul Peck spent more than a decade putting together the documentary I Am Not Your Negro, a powerful film illuminating the words and life of writer and social critic James Baldwin. But as Marc learns in this conversation, Raoul’s own backstory of living under dictatorships, studying across four continents, and learning how to engage activism through art is just as important in understanding how to respond to the world today. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fucking ears, what the fucksters? How are you? I'm Mark Maron, this is is wtf this is my podcast you know it's um sad sad day as i tell you this i i learned I learned that Bill Paxton, the actor, passed away because of complications during a surgery. And the guy was just here. He was just here.

He was sitting across from me in the empty chair that I'm looking at right now, just a few weeks ago. It was episode 783. It, just a few weeks ago. It was episode 783. It was just a couple of weeks ago. He was right there, full of life. I was so excited to talk to that guy. I didn't know him, but sometimes I get very excited to talk to people in here because I love him I love his work I love all his work seemed like a like an intense great guy and he was it's a very gracious giving lit up human being over there just sitting there excited to be here I was excited to talk to him and now he's he just he's gone life is so fucking fragile you just don't know what's going to happen and it's just it's just it's tragic but i tell you i'm glad i had that time with him

like so many of the people in here like all I'm looking for is to connect with a human being. And that guy was just full on force of nature, human being, grounded, decent, excited, passionate, talented guy that we all know from all the movies. It's just fucking awful. It's just fucking awful. It's just so sad. But that life is just so horribly surprising sometimes. And I'm in shock.

And I just, I barely knew the guy. I had one conversation with him. I shared it with you guys, and it was amazing. I was hoping to see him again, see more of his work, but he's gone. Passed away. And it's funny because when he was in here, he said, no matter how many movies I make, weird science is going to be the first thing in my obituary.

He said that sitting right there in that empty chair across from me. There's a lot of empty chairs everywhere, folks. It's part of being human. But it is funny, though, because there's really nothing wrong with being known for playing a funny role that made an impression on so many young people as a movie that they never forgot because of Bill Paxton.

But the first line in pretty much all the obituaries I saw was how Bill Paxton was a versatile and generous actor and almost everyone who has paid tribute to him that I looked at talks about what a kind and friendly person he was. God damn it, just two weeks ago. Life is so fucking fragile and surprising and incomprehensible at some times. Many of us have been feeling this for weeks now,

maybe for years for different reasons. And then the sadness deepens when things get close. And he was right there in that chair. It's been a few people have sat there that are no longer with us. And when I really think about it, it's brutal. It's a brutal fucking reality of life.

But man, am I glad I got a chance to talk to these people. It was just great to get to know him as a person. We always got to remember that there are people in front of us. That if you go outside or you spend time at work

or wherever you go, see those people. See them. Get out of your head. See the people. It's very important now to see people, to engage empathy, to connect as human beings who want to live good lives, free lives, and do what they want with their life in comfort, safety. You know? I don't know. It makes me, I'm lost in a certain swirl of sadness at the fragility of life.

And that's understandable. And my condolences and heart go out to Bill's friends and family. And it's just horrible. horrible uh i guess out of the gate here i should tell you that um yeah my guest today raul peck is the director of the film i am not your negro it is a powerful documentary about james baldwin and i had to watch it two times because it is so deep so moving and so powerful both in words and actions and the scope of what the conversation is in the film and the one I'm about to have about the film that I just it's it's an amazing. I was excited that Raoul Peck could be here. I was just looking at quotes from Mr. Baldwin online here,

and one of them is, I love America more than any other country in this world, and exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually. It's important. It's important to keep that in your head. But other things. I guess I should tell you about this. June 1st, if you're in New York City or the surrounding areas, you might want to think about going to this year's Book Expo because I will be there to conduct a conversation in front of a live audience with my old Air America co-worker,

Senator Al Franken. You can go to bookexpoamerica.com to get tickets. If you're not seeing the full book expo across both days, you can get a single day pass. Just remember my event with Senator Franken will be on Thursday, June 1st. It'll be fun. I really am excited. I get a kick out of Al. The Senator, he has a new book coming out called Al Franken, Giant of the Senate. So we'll have a lot to talk about, not only about his SNL days, but also about being a United States senator and one with a great deal of spunk these days, thank God. And incidentally, I guess I should tell you that I also have a book coming out later this year. Well, I should say we have a book. It doesn't come out until October I guess I should tell you that I also have a book coming out later this year.

Well, I should say we have a book. It doesn't come out until October, but I can tell you a little bit about it now. It's called Waiting for the Punch, Words to Live By from the WTF Podcast. And I'll tell you this, people. When my producer and I started on this more than two years ago, we did not know what it would be like. I don't think we could have ever imagined what an amazing thing it is. It's like it is really, without question,

the best possible book to come out of doing this show. It's an amazing thing to hold in your hands and experience. I know that sounds like hype, but we're both really proud of this thing. And, and I, and I think it's a special thing because like, to be honest with you,

once I have these conversations in here, you know, that's it for me. And, and reading this thing through and seeing how things that are said in connection with another human being, with someone there to bear witness and hold the space

and feel what you're saying and to read it, it's unlike reading anything else. And I could not believe how fulfilling it was. And again, it's not hype. We're just very proud. I'll tell you more about it

when we start the pre-sale, but get excited. It's going to be something you'll definitely love. Comes out in October. It's a long ways away, and God willing, we'll all be here and still able to buy books. Am I being dark? My guest today, Raul Peck, made the film, I Am Not Your Negro.

It is a documentary about James Baldwin. Now, I felt footage of James Baldwin debating William Buckley at Oxford in England. I had not read James Baldwin's work and I have not read much of it, very little. And after watching that piece of that debate, I was blown away at the level of humanity and intellect and the depth of it all that that man had. And I was very fucking moved. I had to watch it two or three times. And then when I got a screener of this film and watched it, I had to watch it twice. The depth of his intelligence and, again, his humanity is just profound and not unlike anything else.

and again his humanity is just profound and not unlike anything else. Cultural criticism, film criticism, political criticism. But the movie is really moving through this book that he never finished that he wanted to write about his three friends, seeing his life and the struggle of America and race through the deaths of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, and Medgar Evers. And it had a lot of footage of Baldwin, like on the Dick Cavett Show, on talk shows, some footage of that debate that I saw.

It had bits and pieces of films, and it was all from his words, bits and pieces of films, and it was all from his words, sort of assessing the racial predicament. And I felt a little out of my league to talk to Mr. Peck about this, but I just copped to that because the movie had such a profound effect on me. movie had such a profound effect on me and and it was so disturbing really uh how little has changed on some level in a very deep way and you know what what really kind of struck me and you'll listen to the interview it's just that it's again about seeing other people with some form of compassion. If you were not blinded by anger one way or the other, and you are not,

you know, reacting to something that your head is generating, you know, it's very hard now. Theoretically, you're supposed to have some control over what you let into your mind, what you let into your head. And a lot of times we prefer things that substantiate our points of view, that make us feel better, that seem right. And a lot of times it's not on all sides but it's become very hard to filter and because of that i think that a lot of what you are reacting to most people in general or hating or loving or whatever is is in your head it is not in reality it may have some point of reference in reality but it is not it is in your head and you got to separate that man because i think what we're losing is our ability to see each other as people and we you know we can't we just can't fucking afford to lose that in any way

and i talk about that a bit with mr pe Peck and about, you know, a lot of other things. But I'll tell you, that movie is powerful and it needs to be seen a couple of times. So I actually watched a bit of the Oscars last night to see if my guest's film was going to take Best Documentary, but that went to the O.J. movie, which was also a great film. But I Am Not Your Negro stands alone as something. It's really an amazing document of an amazing person, amazing mind, and a profoundly deep understanding and bringing together of a lot of ideas that are frankly horrifying, but real. And it provides a lot of insight into exactly the human dynamics of those forces. So it was,

it was a great pleasure to talk to my guest, the director of I am not your Negro Raul Peck. So join us now. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get a nice rank on Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything.

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This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. How's it going? This is exciting. You're running around. You're an Oscar nominee. I can't even, you know, where I am and where I'm going,

where I'll be in one hour. Is it exciting? Is it... Well, yes. As a filmmaker, especially when you spend 10 years of your life making a film, a complicated film that you don't even know if artistically it can work. Yeah. And so having survived that

and then you have such a great acclaim that you see how the film is changing people. The discussion after the movie, not only during Q&A, but after Q&A, people stay in the room or in the lobby or in the parking lot and they have discussion. And then they come back. To you? No, they come back with their family, their friends. They organize groups to go to see the film together just to be in that ambience again, in that atmosphere. It's incredible. Well, it's like for me, I watched it

and then I watched it again because the depth of James Baldwin as a thinker is beyond anything I've ever seen before. And I get nervous because there is, as a white guy, watching this movie, and then having the opportunity to talk to you, there's part of me that thinks, I'm not qualified. Well, that's the contrary because Baldwin talks to everybody. Right. It's not about who you are.

It's who you are as a human being. Right. And he confronts you with that. Exactly. Your responsibility is as a human being, not as a white person, as a black person. Right. We each have our duty or responsibility. And he's telling all of us, to all of us, you better face it.

You need to respond to whatever is happening in this country. And I get that. But the interesting thing for me as a guy who's a liberal guy, who's a guy who is thoughtful, I've read a few books, that there was a feeling of like, somehow somehow i'm complicit yes of course you know it was something that that did wake something up you know you take a lot of things for granted yeah well it's like uh you know the way i see it is like you are you have this great teacher of yours you know who knew you since you were 10 and and then one day he sat you down and said listen i'm going to talk to you and i'm going to tell you you know this is life and this this is what you've been going through and there are some stuff that you need to face yeah and the way he said it in a very it's not antagonistic

it's not uh with with hate or with uh anger or the anger is the anger of somebody who have gone through so much and wants to let it out, but he's not aggressing you, you know? And that's very rare. Yeah, and also... And so you listen to that voice. Of course, and you listen to it, and, you know, he speaks,

because the footage you have of him, you know, there's Dick Cavett footage, you know, in a conversation Cavett footage in a conversation and then there's some other talk show footage and then you have Samuel Jackson doing an amazing

James Baldwin. Incredible, yes. Because Samuel Jackson has such a distinct voice that I didn't realize it was him both times. Well, that's the same. People have now

a sort of cliche, I would say a Tarantino-esque image of Samuel Jackson. And he's much more than that. He's an incredible actor. He was a stage actor. So he's somebody who learned his skills. Sure. Who's incredibly talented and can do anything.

And the way, you know, I didn't have to give him too much direction it was just the only thing i could tell him you know you need to be the voice yeah you know i don't i do not want any distance between you and these words you know we are inside james baldwin head right so you need to feel. So you need to feel the emotion. You need to feel the tragic. You need to feel the irony. You need to feel the joy. And exactly. So it's a performance. Yeah. And now it's all the narration

taken from the manuscript of, it's called Remember This House? Yes. Well, it's called Remember This House? Yes. Well, it's more complicated than that. Also, the letter to the editor. Yeah, exactly.

There are a few documents that were handed to me by Gloria Carifas-Mott, who's James Baldwin's sister, and who's running the estate. Yeah. And four years into the process where I was still struggling about what is the right organic approach to make this film. Yeah. Because I had access to everything, published, unpublished.

To the estate. From the estate. Yeah. They gave me, really, that's unprecedented. Yeah. It never happened before in the film industry.

Well, let me ask you a question from that point there that, you know, your credentials are deep. You know, you've been involved with film for decades. You have a production company, which I read about. But, you know, where do you come from? Because, you know, clearly, you know, it's not an American accent or whatever.

No, I, yeah, I have a complicated but a complex life. I'm Haitian. I'm born in Haiti. My parents left to go work in the Congo. To flee? Did they flee? My father was arrested twice. By Papa Doc?

Yeah, by the regime. He lost his job. He was a professor at the Faculty of Agronomy. Why was he arrested? Well, you didn't have to do much in a dictatorship to be arrested. He was not really politically implicated. It's just, you know,

because you didn't campaign for the dictator and so you are taken as an enemy. By the way, we are seeing that today in the U.S. administration. If you don't agree, you have to leave. Yeah. So imagine what it is in a country that, you know, going through dictatorship.

So he just, you know, knew that he had to leave. Yeah. time, the UN came to Haiti and had 400 contracts for Haitian doctors, engineers, and professors to go work in the Congo because Congo was newly independent and the Belgian who had, you know, kept everything under their hands, never trained Congolese to be able to rule their country. So they had to do that like in an urgency measure. So they came to Haiti because Haiti is, you know, one of the few black countries who had an elite, who had, you know, people fully trained and who spoke French as well. And so they recruit a lot of my father's generation.

And you made a feature film. And I made a film about Lumumba, who was the first prime minister of Congo assassinated by the CIA, the French and some other, the Belgian. So Congo was a very important place for me. It was my first link to the continent. And I went to school there. After a few years, we had to be evacuated to New York because there was some political problems. And so I went to school in Brooklyn, in a public school in Brooklyn,

near Flatbush Avenue and North Strand Avenue. And so that was my first, you know, really experience in the United States, in this country. So that's when we applied for residency because we didn't first, you know, really experience in the United States, in this country. So that's when we applied for residency because we didn't know, you know, we knew we couldn't go back to Haiti. That's the only thing. Because don't forget, the dictatorship lasted until 1986, you know, until I was an adult after my studies. Do you remember, because like, there's certainly part of this film, I'm Not Your Negro, is,

there, there's a, there is a sense of terror underneath it. In some, you know, in very real way. That there is a sense of violence and terror and, and,

you know, a horrendous separation of people. Do you remember that from your childhood? Well, there were several types of terror. There was the terror of roadblocks in Haiti. You know, I remember the first time my father was arrested and we just knew because he didn't come home. And my father, my mother took me in the car.

I was the only child at the time. I have now two more brothers. But at the time, I was the youngest, the first child. And I remember being in the back of that car. It was night and roadblocks. And my mother going everywhere. And there was a curfew. She was not supposed to be on the street.

It was 9 o'clock in the evening. And it was a very strange confrontation with terror. Because at those roadblocks, they could just decide to shoot or to arrest you or to do whatever they want. There was no rules. or to do whatever they want. There was no rules. And incredibly enough, when we went to Congo, we had the same kind of roadblocks as well in a time of really big political confrontations.

And when I went to Brooklyn, it was a time where you could get mugged in the streets. So I felt like I grew up always in knowing what violence was and what arbitrary was. And I think that had a profound influence on me and my work. You know, if you know the list of my films, in every film there is this notion of, you know, people owning your life in a very arbitrary way and deciding about your, you know, being killed or not. And this is a sense that I always kept with me,

you know, even in Germany where I studied later on. I think there was not one single day I didn't think about the Holocaust. You know, that, you know, Germany being an incredible country, you know, who produced the best brand of the century, you know, from Einstein to the best composer of Wagner and all the others, great thinker. And that same country was able to produce

that kind of monstrosity that the Nazi regime was. that the Nazi regime was, you know. And so those elements always kept me alive throughout my life. And that's where I rejoined Baldwin at some way. You know, he has a quote, and I'm very bad at quotes, but he said, you know, every human being is an incredible miracle. And I learned to love the miracle they are, but also to protect myself from the monster they have become. It's hard to tell sometimes. Yes.

But that's something. What he says is about, you know you deal with with people and and societies and you know we can do the most incredible things and at the same time become the the the worst monster possible and all this in good conscience you know when you your question before about you know the the you know the moral monster you know when bald Baldwin calls the whole Western civilization a sort of moral monster, because they went into countries, colonized them, or they invented slavery somehow. They use it with totally good conscience. Right. And he goes on to talk about how, if only the people that were enjoying this,

you know, quote unquote freedom, knew how many lives it cost to sustain it and create it. So the Western civilization, and it's also the reaction of, let's say, the winner. The winner decides about the narrative. Right.

So, and we have been in a very Eurocentric world for several centuries now. Right. So, and in being that, we forgot or they forgot that there are other realities. We forgot or they forgot that there are other realities. And, you know, when you get to write the narrative, you decide who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. Right. And then there was that point where in the way you structured the film towards the beginning where they thought that vengeance was theirs to take because they had the moral high ground. Exactly.

Which was, you know, at times genocidal. Yes, yes, yes. So when you were in Germany, is that where you went to film school? Yes, I went to Berlin. In fact, I went, you know, I never had in mind to become a filmmaker. You know, coming from Haiti, this is not something serious you do as a living.

Yeah, sure. My parents, you know, of course, you're going to be an engineer. And so I choose something that was in between. You know, there was a new diploma called, you know, industrial engineering. So it was part engineering and part economy. So the mixture of the both,

that's something that seems appealing to me. And I knew I could work in all kind of industries. So that's what I went to study in Germany, in Berlin. And I did those studies. It's a very long because it's a double study. I spent seven years studying. I finished, I got my diploma and my master's and I started a PhD for development policies and two years into that PhD, my thesis father died in a car accident. And parallelly, I was already working with friends on, you know, I was making photos for different German magazines and newspapers.

I would do interviews. Berlin is an incredible cultural city. You have the biggest film festival, biggest jazz festival, theater festival. So I would usually try to have interviews or photos of artists coming from Latin America, from Africa, from the whole third world. And so that's how I met a lot of those people, great artists over the years. And so that was a kind of job I had,

but it was my way to be in cultural circle all the time. And at that point, I went back to New York because my girlfriend at the time was a filmmaker and she had a contract in New York. So I went with her. I work as a taxi driver in New York. But of course, journalists made it. He was a taxi driver and became a filmmaker. No, I don't have that mythology.

I just needed a job that I could leave, you know, anytime I wanted. And while I was thinking about my next step, you know. So basically during that time, I decided really to say, well, I really want to make film. And in order to make it on a solid basis, I need to go back to film school so i passed the exam to to the berlin academy which was a very selective school uh they took only 18 students

a year and it's a very complicated uh you know exam over you know several weeks what is oh really what is it what part what does it do like what are the well you had first of all you had to bring you know a lot of pile of works that you you have done like photographs photograph they give you well there is usually a thematic and you need to do like a photo shoot about that thematic you You need to write a scene using that thematic. You need to do a sort of report. Wow. You know, a sort of documentary report. They mean business.

Yeah. There are many layers. In fact, it's more to see what are your capabilities on different level. Right. You know, it's not like there is a particular profile to be a filmmaker. Right. They just want to see, you know, how do you fare among all these different, you know, things. They want to get a sense of your creativity and your capability.

How do you transform a content into images or into a story? Right. So it's very competitive and it's great. It was a great exam. And it forces you also to discover who you are because you can't really cheat. You need to be yourself and put something

on the page. You can't bullshit down. Yeah. You need to put your belly on the page and be naked basically. And then once you get in, it's one of the best school

because you don't pay anything. It's state-funded. You have money to make your film. And the training is you learn by making films. Sure. And how long is that program? It's a four-year program. So you really got in.

Oh, yeah. You really dug in. Yeah. And it was, in fact, within two years, I had already written a screenplay which I submit to German television. What was that about? It was my first story about a young Haitian poet

who is living in Brooklyn, New York, and who was arrested in Haiti and tortured. And he met one of those torturers, a former military, in the streets of Brooklyn. Wow. in Haiti and tortured. And he met one of those torturers, a former military, in the streets of Brooklyn. Wow. And then he started looking for him to get revenge.

But it was more an occasion for me to talk about this immigration, Haitian immigration, who had left Haiti because of the dictatorship. And because it was a long dictatorship, at one point, some of the people who were themselves murderers or torturers- Got out.

Got out as well. And then they would confront in the streets of New York. That happened. Those are real stories. Yeah. Those are, I know people who were confronted to somebody who had put them in prison. There was a couple of mass immigrations, like very dramatic on boats. Yeah.

Well, that came later. That was, you know, another step up in the dramatic development of Haiti. But that's something, you know, I have friends from Chile or from Brazil or from Nicaragua who had gone through those same experiences. Coming to the United States. Yeah, and then meet one of their former torturers. That's incredible. And it's a weird situation. I would say so.

Because sometimes, you know, you are here and you want to forget about your past. You don't want to be confronted with it. And then you see that this particular guy never had to come in front of a justice trial. And then the traumatic... Sure. And he probably fled because his wife was in danger. Of course, of course. That's what that kind of regime do.

They use you, and then when they don't need you anymore, you're thrown out. Or in jail. Or in jail, or killed. So, like, right from the get-go, you know, because of your life and because of your experience,

which is, you know, unique to situations like that, you know, these films were, you know, they were getting into it. I mean, you weren't, you know, making entertainment., you know, they were getting into it. I mean, you weren't, you know, making entertainment. No, that's one of the things. I came to movie because of politics and because of my engagement. You know, it was, you know, I told you I went to film, so I think I was 26 already. So I was already an adult.

Right. So I knew why. You know, it was not just, I want to make you to tell story, work with actors, et cetera. It was about, you know, how do I can, how can I be of some use to my society or wherever I was living?

And it was always about going back home. Right. You know, I study in Berlin, but knowing that at some point I will have to go back to Haiti and fight, you know, undercover or with, you know, some organization that exists. Without a doubt.

Oh yes, oh yes. The generation before me, by the way, went back to Haiti and they were all killed. Because what we didn't know at the time is that the CIA knew about that and And they gave the information to the regime. Because the Duvalier was supported by the American, by every American administration,

because it was a sort of bulwark against communists. So they would prefer to have a dictator that is on the side than to have anything that sounds socialist or communist. So it was a very hard time. So I never thought that I was going to stay in Germany or in Europe. It was always about going back home. Don't forget, I was in film school in 83 and the dictatorship lasted until 1986.

So, my goal was to go back and like the goal of many of my friends, it was always to go back home whether you were Haitian or Chilean or from Nicaragua

or from Turkey or from Iran. However you can. Yeah, it was about, you know, going back and serve. And that's interesting that, you know, James about, you know, going back and serve. And that's interesting

that, you know, James Baldwin, you know, struggled with that decision. It was not innate to him to, you know, once he fled America for personal

and political reasons and spent all that time in France and really became who he was, that there was, it seemed in the film, there was a reluctance that eventually became no choice.

Yeah. Well, that's the thing, you know, and you never can totally renounce to where you come from, to where you grew up, to where, you know, the first smell you had, the first ice cream you had. All those are important memories in your life. So when you are forced to leave your country, and that's to come to the refugee crisis here,

or crisis they call, nobody wants to leave his hometown. Even here, we are a country of immigrants. But why is it we have little Italy? We have Chinatown. It's because you still have that cultural link and that somehow emotional link to wherever you come from. Forever, yeah. Yeah, forever.

And so when Syrian refugees are coming, it's not because some of those people, they were happy in their country. Yeah. Even when they didn't have much money, but it was their country. It was their place of birth. have much money but it was their country it was their place of birth and so to suspect them or the mexican yeah it's whatever is going on right now is really unacceptable you know we are witnessing you know fascistic uh attitude toward other human beings you you know, women, men, children, you know, it's like you put a stamp on them as they are criminals. And even the language you use, you know,

I remember hearing those language before a genocide in Rwanda or the Nazi genocide, you know, because that's the first thing, the first step you take when you want to kill an enemy, you start giving him names. And then those names transform themselves into insect name and once they are at that stage you know from bad hombres the next step is to say they are you know rats right and then you can kill rats yeah you know the this type of words using you know the

rhetoric of that this This is a rhetoric of genocide. I don't think we would get to that point here in this country because first of all, there is resistance. There are institutions. But still, the mindset can do

a lot of damage. Well, it's terrifying and that, you know, that in the film there's a moment where lot of damage well it's terrifying and that you know that you're in the film there there's a moment where you know Baldwin is talking about you know what people you know are reacting to with that hate is is something in their own mind yes yes it's not the real it's not the person it's not the reality it's it's the need to have that hate.

It's a construction in their own mind. Yes. Because, you know, I can, like he said in the film, you know, I grew up, I never realized that, you know, what does it mean, black? Yeah. You know, you don't wake up and look at you and say, I'm black. You know, you're just a human being. You know, you go to school, you have friends. You know, I had friends of multiple color,

multiple nationality, but, you know, it's not the criteria I use to have friends or not. It's, you know, I'm your friend because we hit it together and we have something in common. But it cannot be the color of our skins. Right, and so when you start working on I'm not your Negro this is a decade of work because it seems like some of the thoughts that you're talking about you know just what was the moment

where you're like this is the the man whose words in life that I can run these you know feelings I have through well it, I was very lucky to have read Baldwin when I was 17 or 18, so very early age. And when you can see a problem from the distance, you always have a better position because you're not totally in the anger of that moment or that place. Right. in the anger of that moment or that place. The same thing Baldwin had, going to Paris for him was, he understood his country better from the perspective of being in Paris.

And in Paris, he understood that suddenly people were looking at him first as an American and then as a black person. Because in Paris you had, you know, black American, but you had black African, you had black Caribbean people. And for a French person, they are not equal. They are not the same. Yeah.

So when you come as an American, suddenly, you know, you are somebody else. They see you as an American, like they see Hemingway as an American. Right. You know, the question, you know, is not, you know, you are an American, like they see Hemingway as an American. Right. You know, the question, you know, is not, you know, you are black. I mean, so it's more, you know, complex than that. So being elsewhere give you, it's like you are on the top of a mountain.

You can look down and have a bigger picture of whatever is going and you can see the complexity. And it gives you some structure. And you were able to see that from living all these places simultaneously. Exactly. So when I read Baldwin the first time, it just blew my mind because suddenly what I had felt intuitively in my 17, 18-year-old brain was suddenly very structural very analytic and very poetic from Baldwin

I was he was explaining to me what I felt intuitively but could not really express

what was the first thing you read The Fire Next Time that was you know that book was important and

really because he Baldwin did one thing, is that he just said, this is who I am. I take a stand. And then the problem is you. You need to find your place. I know who I am.

I know where I belong. And I don't let you define who I am. And this particular society because it's a letter to his nephew you know and he's explaining to his nephew who is the nephew and in what world is and what he will have to confront all his life but he's telling him yes it's it's going to be hard, but don't forget, you are a human being and don't let people define who you are.

And you're going to live through things that you can't imagine or doesn't make sense. But you need to keep your sanity and understand that it's a particular society that is like that. And you have a particular history and you need to know at every moment

who you are and face that society. Right. In the film, he says the history is not the past, it's the present. Exactly. Because you were brought here by it. Exactly. And you need to confront it every day.

We are the product of our history. And he also said that all of us, we share that same history. There is no black history and white history. This is the history of America. And we need to face our respective role in that history. And we need to take responsibility for our roles, our respective roles.

That's the only way, the only form that we can take to solve all our problems and to construct a future for both of us. So when you say it takes 10 years, because I noticed that the structure of the film, it's thoughtful and it's very deliberate. You're constantly going up against mediated images or fictional images through film, television of the black person and the white person in this country because film and television dictate somehow and kind of structure our misrepresentation of reality. Well, because film and images are ideological, you know, grounded. Yeah. They're not innocent.

Right. You know, anything you watch on TV or on the theatrical, theater screen is full of very particularly thoughts or image of a society or prejudice or it defines who you are, it defines who women are, what is the interaction between men and women, how do you treat children,

how do you treat rape, et cetera, or do you treat violence? So film are transporting all of that. But most of us don't know how to read those different layers. We take it for granted. Right. And then James Baldwin read it. Of course.

And James Baldwin not only read it, but he deconstructed what film is. He's giving us a really lesson of the construction of what images is. Yeah. That's a, he's giving us a really, uh, lesson of the construction of what images are in the particular, when as a black person that you don't see your images on the screen, you know, you don't see yourself as a real person on the screen. Now he had, it has changed a little bit. You,

you can see, you know, real great black characters in, in TV and movies and television series who have been very good at that recently. But still, you know, the whole ideology package

that goes through film, and don't forget, American cinema is the dominant cinema throughout the world. So I't forget, American cinema is the dominant cinema throughout the world. So I grew up even in Haiti, you know, from four to eight, watching American film. You know, my African or Congolese friends,

they also saw the same John Wayne Western. Sure. Or Tarzan. Yeah. And we knew as young boys that this is not totally reality because, listen, that white guy killing all the Indians,

somehow this is somehow aerial. By the way, we could be the Indians in that story. Yeah. You knew that early on. Yeah. And then I remember very vividly the first time you started to see

black characters in Hollywood movies and you could basically time at how many minutes the black character would get killed. Right. Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, you know, the first 10, 15 minutes, the guy, he's going to get killed. Right.

And then it took longer, you know, as time passed, you know, you had black character who survived the whole movie and could even be in the happy ending. That's change. Yes. So the movie is like the half-finished or not even half-finished book, Remember This House, is about James Bond. Well, those were notes, by the way. It's not a finished manuscript. It's really notes, 30 pages of notes

that somehow tried to summarize what the book was going to be. And so he's now, like this is in the late 70s, so he's written many, many books. And you feel that this is something that's been at the core of his soul. What do you feel that he was looking to well it it was a very complicated and painful process for him he knew you know to go back you know writing that book means i would have to go back to the south and meet merrily evers and meet the widow of malcolm x

and meet the children who are no longer children etc yeah that's that's for me that that gave me the story this is the story you know what it meant for that man to go back that journey and so it gave me the opportunity to go back to that journey myself and to find everything he had written about it. You know, the film was... You draw from a lot of sources? Yes, of course. The film is full of different sources. One of the major sources was a book called The Devil Finds Work,

which is a collection of James Baldwin essays on film. He is one of the major film critics of this country because not only he could review films and books, by the way, but also he did it in a way where he delivers you also the instrument of analysis. He didn't just make like usual critics made, like very critics made, like a very realistic critic,

but he gives you the historic perspective. Right. He gives you the ideological perspective and the political one. What does it mean? You know, when he,

he write a critics about the defiant ones, you know, the film with Tony Curtis and Sidney Poitier, you know, being chained. He used it to explain what he calls,

you know, the source of the white man hate and the source of the black man hate. And he compared those two hates. Right. So he goes into a very, you know, society analysis. Real criticism. You know, using the film.

And so this is profound. And so that's why those S's are so strong. They are much more than just film S's. Right. They're complete intellectual investigations. Well, that was throughout the film, your film, that you start with very current footage, I imagine, from Ferguson, to almost present that problems exist. This is not the past. And then you go into the heroes section

after a little establishing. And that goes right into film, into the idea that, and also into the three men you're about to talk about. And how he was introduced to film, to images, and to the absence of his own images on that screen, or the absence of the image of his father on the screen. Right, but then that evolves to that point where the only one that he could maybe accept as a real black character was the custodian in that film. I don't know what the film was. And he really talks poetically about the fear in his face.

And that predicament, somehow that was like, well, that has depth. Well, that's exactly what I think a lot of minorities, blacks, and also women, you know. We had to find our real self in films, sometimes in just a small piece of the film. Sometimes, in the case of Baldwin, that was this face.

Yeah. You know, that's the way you would experience your own narrative in those films. It's like almost like stealing an image or stealing a scene from a whole movie and try to make that piece yours. Right, but the profound thing about that moment, and especially at that time after he's moved through

these black and white silent films, Uncle Tom's Cabin, and then sort of the dancing, Joan Crawford as being some indicator that people seem to have fun. And he had not put black or white onto it. But that moment in that film that connected with him was a moment of fear. Just terror of that man.

And he was like, that seems like a thing. Because it's a terror he has seen. He has seen people. It's a terror he has seen. Yeah. He has seen people, you know, for a young boy to, you know, that's something that many young kids in the South have seen is an incredibly painful moment where your father or your uncle who have authority upon you and who is raising you

and suddenly in the face of violence from outside who have authority upon you and who is raising you and suddenly in the face of violence from outside has to behave like a little boy himself and when you witness that it's very hard to you know To feel that your father to be proud of your own father or to feel taken care of Feel taken care of and it's feel taken care of. And this terror is really traumatic. Yeah. And that kind of situation happened in many ways.

And by the way, it's not only a black thing. It happened in a working, you know, white worker situation where, you know, suddenly your father, who is a janitor or whatever has has to bow uh in front of his boss yeah and and and when you witnessed us as a little boy it's traumatic

yeah because it changes your view of your own parents yeah and so baldwin was always very good at at feeling those moments of seeing them and describing them. And also he was able to expand it, you know, intellectually, and I think, you know, succinctly to an entire group of people. Yes. That, you know, how they fit into the society. That you are unable, there's another theme throughout the film, that, you know, how do you become a man if you are treated like that?

Yes, yes. And in fear that you, you know, how can you concentrate to become a man when, you know, every step can be a danger, can, you know, cost you your life, you know. And we are still living that in the present. Imagine when the parents have to, you know, you give your car for the first time to your teenage boy or girl. And the first thing you have to tell, in case you're stopped by the police, don't do anything stupid. Don't move. Obey the order. And you're basically giving him a recipe for terror.

You're not educating your children. You're telling him this a recipe for terror. You're not educating your children. You're telling him this is a dangerous world, so be careful all the time. Never let go. And this is a terrible situation. And people forget that millions and millions of people go through that every day in this particular country. Yeah. And the second heading was witness. And I found that that was very interesting right at the beginning.

This is when he goes back to the States and he's going down south. He's becoming involved in the civil rights movement. And there's that thing he said about the line between a witness and a perpetrator. And an actor. And an actor is very blurry. Yes. But it is there. But what he meant also by that is, you know,

there was a discussion at the time about, you know, it's either you are an artist or you are an activist, you know, and you had to choose, you know. And there were critics, in particular in the literary world, who would say, you know, once you start to write about a current issue, you're not a writer anymore, you are a journalist, or you are, you know, somebody who do news, but not art. And Baldwin was torn between those two positions,

and I think he found an extraordinary form to escape from that and when you read his book today they are very precise, they are very analytic but at the same time they are written in a language that is extraordinary Baldwin invented a way

to write about America and the written, the music the words between you know, between preacher and ethnologist and, you know, and the way he used his humanism to describe a human being, etc. This is exceptional.

People tend to take it for granted. At the time, he invented a genre, basically. You know, people like Toni Morrison or Endeavor, a genre basically you know people like tony morrison or in depth she tony said you know he he gave me a language uh that i thought that was so beautiful i thought it was my own yeah and he speaks it too that you know when he put just the time that he puts into putting a thought together yeah and and and seeing it all the way through in this very poetic and powerful way is is is i've never seen anything like it yeah and and i in fact doing all these interviews since the film um opened i realized that you know i i i

started by saying well you should read baldwin and then I thought, no, in fact, you should study Baldwin. Yeah, we have to. In the sense of Bible study, like you take a paragraph in the Bible and you speak about it and you have a whole philosophical discussion. That's the way we need to deal with Baldwin because it's so rich, every sentence.

I remember the books, starting working on the project, I went back in my library and found my old Baldwin books that I have everywhere I live. And then I realized that almost everything was on the line from the first page. At different points in your life. Yes. That's how much that happened, you know.

Yeah. You read any other book, you know, there is one place where you have a few notes. Right. But Baldwin, you can underline the whole book. Yeah. And sometimes it happens over years. Oh, yes, of course.

Different colors. Exactly. Exactly. Well, that's why I went back to it, because, you know. Different colors. Exactly. Exactly. Well, that's why I went back to it because, you know, I recently, in the last six months,

I have not read a lot of Baldwin, but somebody sent me the clip of that debate at Oxford, you know, and I'd never seen it before. And, you know,

I've read things that I have to go back and reread over and over again. And I watched that. I watched him sort of spontaneously generate these incredibly expansive and well-thought-out argument around race. over and over again. And I watched that. I watched him sort of spontaneously generate these incredibly expansive and well-thought-out arguments

around race. And I was like, what is that mind? And I had to watch it three times. Because you can't follow, really. It's like, oh my God, I need to understand that really or listen to it again. Right, happening on so many levels. And you don't have time to recover.

Right. No. It's like he's hitting you again and again and again. And he did that all the time, even on those Cavett interviews, even when he was just saying something that was relatively succinct. Yes. The depth of it and how it's going to hit you as it integrates into your own mind. And so it's like, whoa, it's daunting.

And I think that what you did a great job in the film doing was that the way you laid things out, the examples you used from film, TV, interviews, really elucidated the points he was making and engaged you visually in examples of what was trying to be said. And sadly, there is no good conclusion. Well, the conclusion somehow is what he said at one point. This is the reality.

I lay out the whole reality in front of you. There is no other way around. Now the question of the future is your response. What do you do with that? You know, he confront us with that. You know, this is it. These are the elements. Yeah.

What do you do? Are you ready to take responsibility for that you know that one single history we are part of this same history there are not two different history yeah and we have done several things we are we were actors in it so and and that's why for me the the the movie is about now you know. It's the same situation. What do we do? We cannot pretend to be innocent. We are not in an innocent time anymore.

We know all we need to know. Whoever we are, black or white or Chinese, Native American women, we know our history. If we don't, that's the other line, we are moral monster. Because we cannot pretend 2017 that we still don't

know how the world is run. That we don't know our history. That we don't know that this country was built on two genocide. And that we need to deal with it. It's not about punishment. It's not about punishment. It's not about reparation. It's about knowing because knowing is already is the beginning of change.

Knowing in moral terms. And in moral terms and also in reality. Yeah. Knowing the facts. Right. Knowing the numbers. You know, when you say, let's make America great again, what does it mean? say let's make America great again what does it mean in that sentence alone there are at least 20 mistakes 20 mistakes and of course you don't have the time to rebuke every single piece of that phrase which doesn't make sense

which is idiotic and and the manifest of ignorance And not only that of ignorance, but he takes you for an ignorant. And that's terrible. 2017 to be able to say a phrase like that is to erase the history of America. And the influence of America throughout the world. You know, in bad and good times. You know, what does it mean? It means nothing. So it's important to come back to reality.

You know, not reality shows, but to come back to reality. And I think Baldwin, that's the strength of Baldwin, is to make us face that reality. And he speak to each one of us. That's what I've seen those last two months with with going on the road with the film is that the audience whether you black or white you are confronted with yourself you

know I think ballroom yeah talks to you directly yeah in a very friendly but direct way he doesn't under God and organize you He doesn't antagonize you. He doesn't accuse you of anything. He tells you this is the element. Yeah. Pick your side. Yeah. Where are you on the spectrum of ignorance?

Exactly. Exactly. Also, yeah. You know, what have you said to yourself that comforts you into thinking that you're doing enough? Exactly. Exactly.

Yes. Because that's the, you know, you've got hate and you've got a way to compartmentalize that and decide it's not you and then you've got this whole other thing which is like you know like yeah I'm not that way all right so that what's the next step I you know I'm I you know I love all people you know I say But, you know, see, that was the daunting thing for me is that, like, you know, is anybody doing enough in these moments? And what it's taken, you know, who the hell knows what's going to happen here? Yeah.

But, you know, a lot of people certainly woke the fuck up. Yeah. Well, that's the reality. It's like somehow we went in a sort of intellectual lethargy, you know. Yeah. Well, that's the reality. It's like somehow we went in a sort of intellectual lethargy, you know, and I call it once in an interview, it's like the gentrification of the minds. It's like we got lazy. We built monuments for Martin Luther King, and not for Malcolm X, by the way. And then everything is solved. And when we take the numbers, that's the thing.

When you come back to reality, you take any numbers, the amount of people in prison, the amount of young black or Latino kids who grew up without a parent and why the drugs numbers etc why are you know drugs that black or poor people take is hit more you know gravely then yeah you know the white or middle-class white drugs or not you know all those things, you know, take any type of numbers and statistic, the reality will hit you hard.

And also there's the, you know, discussion of class that never happens here. Exactly. That's the big elephant in the room. Because you have this, you know, you certainly have drug epidemics now that, you know, are somewhat drug epidemics now that that you know are somewhat systemically hitting all types of people and you know that that yeah the elephant in the room

well the inequality in this country right we are now in a time of extreme concentration of wealth in the hand of a minority. Yeah. And we just hand in power to that minority. And we just accept that. And we have an incredible concentration of poverty in this country, the richest country on earth. And, you know, I always wondered, you know, how do people react if you put those numbers in front of them? You know, don't you take any consequence out of that?

You know, those are the numbers that Oxfam published a few weeks ago, you know, saying that eight individuals, not 8% of the population, Not 8% of the population. Eight persons own more or as much as 40% of the poor population, of the population of this country. Eight individuals. You're talking trillions. How does that happen? And this has consequences to everybody,

to the way the press work, the concentration of the press, that a few billionaires own all the press, meaning all the information we get. And journalists are not that free. They are less free than they were 40 years ago. And it's a whole chain of consequence. Yeah.

And of brainwash as well. And people, when you push consumption to people, you push, and on all level, consumption of reality shows, consumption of electronics in your life, consumption of everything you can just make a phone call and get it to your house. You can order pizza. You can order. So basically, it creates a generation of people on couch. Even your friendship.

You can do it electronically. And Baldwin sort of, you know, he said that about TV is a narcotic. Yeah. Has a narcotic effect. Exactly. He said the entertainment industry remind him of the use of narcotic. Yeah. Has a narcotic effect. Exactly. He said the entertainment industry remind him of the use of narcotic. And he wrote that 50 years ago

at a time where there were only three national network. So imagine what it meant today. That means you could see those effect and impact 50 years ago. He could. He could, yes.

And you imagine where we are today. Well, that's the fascinating thing, too, is that a lot of this stuff he said that long ago, and it is exactly the same, and also more sophisticated in some ways than a lot of analysis of it currently. He saw the truth of it currently. Yeah. He saw the truth of it.

Yeah. And one aspect, because it's a matter of education as well. But also, even when you went to college, it's hard for you sometimes to see through what's happening. You know, the example now. I saw the time when television and radio station became very partisan. And where now even network like CNN would have, you know, the guy from the left, the guy from the right. And then the journalist in the middle, he's not, you know, he's not taking any side anymore. There is as if there is no truth. You know, both positions

all have the same quality. Yeah. So that's what leads us today to have one side, a scientist who worked 40 years of his life

on climate change and on the other side, you have some guys who just decided that climate change don't exist. And those two positions are considered equal right that's that's where we are today you know yeah and that's that's just incredible you know right and what gets lost there is the truth and the urgency of what is really happening yes

yeah well we don't we don't know. Now people are putting in doubt everything. Yeah. You know, nobody has credibility. In fact, the loudest you are, the most credible you are, apparently. And I think that's like in terms of the film, when it comes around to what we're talking about now and this sort of, you know of rabbit hole of hopelessness and panic you can get into around it, which I experience daily, is that Baldwin brings it back to human. Yes, and he shows you that you can do something about it. That's the thing. I see people say the film gives them energy because they just realize,

well, I can understand that and I can do something about it. It's just about me deciding to give a response to that because on the bigger picture, it's simple. It's clear. There is no confusion. We are not idiot. We are not ignorant.

There is a way to understand what's going on now. You know, you just step back a little bit and watch the bigger picture. And that's what Baldwin gave us. He gave us a 50 years picture. And where we say, oh my God, this is what, in fact, that's where we are. And then you can react, because it doesn't seem

like this huge mountain of ignorance in front of you. You know, how do you start a discussion when you have to, again, I don't want to quote our current president, you know, make America great again. Yeah. You know, you don't need to go into that to have to explain it. You just reject it. You don't lose your time to go into that kind of discussion. So that's what Baldwin gives you you know step back you know and and and then you can see what makes sense and what doesn't make sense and don't

lose your time on the stuff that you're being bombarded with and that make no sense you know yeah and that's big part of our day. The amount of Twitter, Facebook, of reality shows. Why would I indulge in the crazy daily life of a group of men or women buying stuff, buying merchandise? My life cannot be that as a human being. My life cannot be that as a human being. It's not about how many cars I have or how many new clothes I have or how many new house I rebuilt, all that. It's like just material to fool your brain

and take space. It just takes place. There was a scandal in France a few years back where the head of the French biggest private TV, TF1, in an interview, he just said, you know, my job is to bring films and shows on my channel so that you don't need to think anymore, but you just need to buy Coca-Cola.

You know, he said it plainly. He's being honest. And he's being honest. You know, he was not even cynical. Yeah. You know,

and, and that it's working, you know, it's working. Sure. And it's, you know, it's even deeper than that.

It's like, and now it's about not just buying Coca-Cola, it's about, you know, buying an ideology that you can use as reality. Again, it's, it's about not just buying Coca-Cola, it's about buying an ideology that you can use as reality. Again, it's what Baldwin said, that it's giving you what you need to hate in your head. Exactly. Without having going outside.

The other thing that I starred here was he said, people who say they care, don't. They care about their safety and their profits. Exactly. That's big. That's right there, a Marxist analysis of our society, which is a society built on profit. And that means profit invade every place in your life, in your action. And that's one line that the young Marx wrote, like in the capitalist society, even human relationship becomes a relationship of merchandise.

And when you look at your own relationship sometimes, where you take decisions because of merchandise, because of money, or because of interest. This is what we have become. So we've lost our emotional, moral, and psychological compass. Yeah, and more and more, because we just don't have the space anymore in our brain. It's being taken up.

How many times we can have the proper time to sit and read a book? Or to spend time with other people. To do what me and you just did. Exactly. Well, yes, that was a real... You know, this is something I miss, you know, in the media. You know, to really be

sitting with a real person and have a conversation without having to cut your thoughts. Right. Because we are complex. We are today living in a very complex society. So there is no straight answer. I like when somebody asks you, okay, tell me your life in a nutshell.

No, my life cannot be reduced in a nutshell. Well, that's interesting because as complex as it is and as that is driven by, you know, guiding people either for profit or for, you know, brainwashing or for, you know, competing illusions, is that, you know, people, I think this is one of the byproducts is that they get overwhelmed and they need it simplified.

Exactly. And it's not simple. It's never. Life is not simple. Right. But people together, talking together, you know, like that.

See, that's my biggest fear now is that the polarization is so profound that, you know, how do we do it as people? Yeah. What do we do now? But that's why Baldwin gave us the chance to sit back a little bit, take a little bit of distance, see it historically.

Don't see what happened in the last election. See what has been happening the last 50 years, and then you will understand where you are now. If you explain Donald Trump by just explaining the campaign, you will not understand anything. But if you understand that Donald Trump came way back from Reagan, that when they start deregulating, when they start breaking the unions, et cetera, et cetera,

this is what brought us here. And they have been ordered Donald Trump throughout the world. So it's not a new model. You know, there was a guy named Berlusconi in Italy. Yeah. That is the perfect, you know, copy of Donald Trump. Billionaires, authoritarian, a lot of ignorance,

hater, divider. And they finally got rid of him. You know? And it took time. He did a lot of damage. But Italy have, you know, came back to a better place today. So we shouldn't be afraid of anything.

You know, we are this country. So the most difficult part is to sit down with the other one and have, you know, a conversation and decide that we can change a lot of things together. And of course, that's not a simple process. There are no recipe. There are no shortcut. And this is something that we lost.

And when Baldwin gives you the whole list of what it took to organize the civil rights movement, you know, it was about learning. It was about sitting together and have meetings. It was about raising money. It was about finding allies. You know, everybody was in the movement, not just black. You had the unions, you had the churches,

you have the Jewish organizations, you have the youth organizations. And this was a huge coalition. And it took time, it it took passions not only anger and that's something that today we we voice our anger but then what do we do and also now like because of these disembodied voices of persistent psychic terror you know through through platforms that are disengaged from human beings in a way and are redundant in their hate. There was a moment in the film where he talks about the exhaustion that you have to figure

out a way to continue fighting so you don't get exhausted. Exactly. Exactly. Because they get you tired. They get you tired. Yeah. And so the question is always, how do I put my energy and what is fundamentally important? And not the side battle.

And because they are presenting to us an upside down world. So to put it in the right order, takes a lot of energy and you need everything to you know and so that's the an incredibly complicated situation now because at some point you need to give response to those daily attacks you know you need to show the disinformation you need to prove that those numbers are not the real numbers, etc. But at the same time, you have to find the space to step back a little bit

and to see the bigger picture and to strategize on the middle and long term. Right. And that's where the fight should be. But now because of these sort of echo chambers and bubbles that for me or you to figure out that something isn't true or real may not have any bearing on the people that fundamentally see the country as a different thing almost entirely than we may.

Yeah. But what does it mean? It means that we need to talk with them. I know. We need to talk with them because it's not about good or bad people. No, I know. People react to whatever they are going through

and their economical situation in this country determined a lot. I don't want to quote Marx again, but this is where it comes from. You decide, you know, your conscience is different if you have a job or if you don't have a job. And it will determine anything you will do in the coming years. And it includes also sometimes that you don't get the right information, why you lost your job. so when you have populists like donald trump coming and say this is this bad woman that made you lose your job you know you don't always have the time to go

and find out and it satisfies an anger yeah of course of course so we are it's human you know to react to whatever you feel it makes sense to you and it's simple you know as you say before you know we like simplicity although our world is complex yeah you know and so it's about how do we get you know you know how we we go away from this hate discourse and to try to understand why a worker who sometimes was in a union and a very progressive union suddenly feel the anger to just or to react to his anger without thinking further and to say well this guy who's selling me the car he's telling me this is the best car ever you know and yeah why wouldn't i take a chance because nobody else is even telling me this is the best car ever. And yeah, why wouldn't I take a chance?

Because nobody else is even telling me that. Yeah, and also they've lost belief in all institutions as corruption. And just generations of unexplainable, but yet the explanation is there. Loss of jobs, know, loss of jobs, poverty, you know, loss of pride,

loss of ability. And I think there is one thing, what we call the intelligence, meaning, you know, scholars, universities, schools, and they need to find

the way back to these people as well. You know, there was a time when there was big change in society and universities were on the forefront. Teachers were on the forefront. Scholars were in the forefront. And we lost that battle.

Teachers, and I know, I taught at NYU, I taught in many other universities throughout the world, and I see how academia have created you know, created another bubble. Yeah, insulated themselves. Insulated themselves. And, you know, you have research about the most crazy and, you know, really unused type of subject. You never hear anyone say, let's take to the streets and do some further reading. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And there was

a time where, you know, when you remember the Vietnam War resistance and all that, you know, your teachers were in the street with you. And then you would go back in class and discuss what is your society at the moment? Do we take a stand? Do we accept? Well, they're trying to, you know,

there's a concerted effort to take away that dialogue. Yes. And now it a concerted effort to take away that dialogue. Yes, yes. And now it's a lot easier to take away that dialogue. All it takes is one student to go like, that guy's bad. Yeah. This is anti-American. It's like that's where the language is going again. got and why is it like this is there have been a tremendous fragilization of of those institutions

as well you know when universities started to make money yeah in order not to disappear because right state funding where you know take away from them now they became businesses. And now as a professor or a teacher, you know, it was about, you know, I should get tenure because then economically I'm safe.

But it's a way to fragilize also intelligence to make them scared of losing their job. And it's the same for journalists as well. You know, a lot of part

of the intelligentsia had to care for themselves first yeah taking less risk and and then you can intimidate their safety and their profits the safety and their profit that's the unfortunately the the human attitude in in capitalism you know it's a very that's the other thing It's a historical way of life. Capitalism is very specific. It's very clearly determined. The beginning of the industrial

revolution that changed the way people communicate, the way you get jobs, the way you get paid. Everything is depending on that and we cannot go out of it if we don't understand where it comes from. Well, thank you for talking to me.

Thank you for inviting me. It was a great conversation. It was. It's rare, and it's too rare to have that kind of exchange nowadays. And I appreciate it, and the movie is stunning, and you've got to watch it a couple of times. Thank you very much. Okay. That was an amazing conversation. It was

different in scope and tone than a lot I've had, but also very kind of mind-blowing. And powerful to me. So I'm going to play some slightly maybe saddish guitar. I don't know. I don't have a plan.

Redundant is probably redundant in terms of what I've played in this space before. ¶¶ Jangan lupa like, share dan subscribe ya! Boomer lives! Boomer lives! lives. Anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future-thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food,

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