WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 793 - Kevin Nealon

Episode Date: March 12, 2017

Kevin Nealon is trying a new approach to life in order to be less of a people pleaser and to allow himself some anger from time to time. But Kevin is able to keep that anger at bay while he tells Marc about heading to LA during the '70s comedy boom, working as a bartender at the Improv, getting onto The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, and unexpectedly landing on SNL. Kevin also talks about the importance of his friendship with the late Garry Shandling. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking

ears what the fuck nicks what the fucksikins what's happening i'm mark maron this is wtf this is my podcast uh thank you for joining. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. I hope your day is going okay or your evening or your drive or your workout or whatever the fuck you're doing. I hope it's okay. I hope you're enjoying life. I hope you're engaging in it. I'm in a hotel room as we speak. I'm out here. I'm out here in the country, in the great American countryside, kind of. I'm in Burlington, Vermont, and we drove up. Sarah and I did the thing. We flew into New York. We hit New Haven, did that show. Great show. Then we went up to Troy, Troy, New York, and tonight in Burlington. I'm recording this before the show. I'll tell you a little bit about

the trip. Sure, I will. Why not? But let's do this first because I wanted to, my buddy Todd Barry, he texted me and he's got this book out.

He sent it to me. It's very funny. Todd is very funny. The book is very funny. It's called Thank You for Coming to Hattiesburg, One Comedian's Tour of Not Quite the Biggest Cities

in the World. He calls it part tour diary, part travel guide, and part memoir. And because it's Todd, you know it's hilarious. It's out in bookstores tomorrow, but you can pre-order it right now. Todd Berry's new book. All right. So did I mention Kevin Nealon is on the show? That was a long time coming because quite honestly i didn't think kevin nealon liked me i thought we had a problem we discussed it so new haven was a uh it was great to be there we we stayed we're basically on the yale campus and it was a very pleasant hotel and we went you know because sarah is a artiste so she like checked out what was that the, and we wanted to see what was there. I have the, hold on.

Yeah, I got the little brochure thing right here. Small and Great Objects, Annie and Joseph Albers in the Americas. Now, they were both artists. Joseph Albers was an abstract guy, did squares, did colors. Annie did a lot of textile work, weavings and whatnot. guy did squares did colors and he did a lot of textile work weavings and whatnot and this was a collection of uh little artifacts and bits of uh uh of you know sculptures and weird figurines from mexico and latin america and they kind of you know connected those things with the influence on him and art in general and you know it was a learning experience and a lot of times i need to kind of be

you know it takes a lot for me to go to the museum but it was just down the street and it was a learning experience. And a lot of times I need to kind of be, you know, it takes a lot for me to go to the museum. But it was just down the street. And it was I always am happy when I go there because you should go. It's important whether you you think it's important or not or whether you don't go very often. Got to go look at the art. Go look at the paintings. Go look what creative freedom looks like. Go look what putting it all on the line for a canvas looks like. Go

look at what portals into the great unknown, the secret spirits of pure creation feel like. Don't let it go away. They require your attention. You don't have to look at everything. I know it's exhausting, especially the historical stuff, but go lock in for a few minutes to the art so you get your brain configured correctly all right that's all public service announcement for art in general but then we go back to the hotel and we're gonna have some coffee in the lobby and we almost sat like there was these two seats looking out the window but they were too close to this couple that was sitting there enjoying their coffee or lunch or bread. And we decided not to sit there because we felt we'd be looking right at him. So we sat across the way from him. And then I realized, I'm like,

that guy looks familiar. And I'm like, oh, yeah, he does. And then I look across from him and I'm like, holy shit, that's Meryl Streep. Meryl Streep was just sitting there in the lobby bar of the hotel we were staying at having some bread and meat and I recognized her husband because he's always sitting next to her being her husband I don't know that guy I don't know what he does but I knew it was him I recognized him because she's one of those people where you're like that's her husband I wonder what he does who's that guy it's easy to find. I'm sure I never did. I want to keep it a mystery. So I'm just looking at her. I'm not staring at her, but I was like trying not to look at her.

But you kind of want to look at her because it's Meryl Streep, the greatest actress that ever lived and somebody who is an outspoken person and sort of important to the cultural dialogue at this juncture in history. And also, how can you not fucking love her work? Right was you know i was just taking in her technique you know she was eating bread and having um having some coffee i believe maybe a water also using her phone a bit and i just wanted to see how she approached that stuff because she's a professional and i gotta say uh it was brilliant she she ate her bread brilliantly. It was like it was very, seemed very real, seemed very like she was committed

to eating some bread and meat. But also like her phone style was like, it was like she was really in it. She was like definitely checking her phone. Just it was a brilliant performance all around. And I was happy to have the seats that I had. So yeah, so New Haven, that was a great show. And then we drove up to Troy.

Troy is an old New York City, upstate New York. I'll tell you something about driving through, you know, Connecticut and, you know, we're taking the small county roads, Connecticut, upstate New York, Vermont. Is one thing you notice after a little while is there's definitely been some slacking in the barn repair department. Barn maintenance, I think, is at an all-time low, but from the looks of some of these barns, it's been declining for probably a century. And it adds something to the landscape. I don't know

if that's why people don't fix the barns i mean there are some dilapidated old fucking barns out there but you're like that's cool but party is like i guess you know just generations of people have looked out at that thing and said nah it's all right no we don't need to don't need to paint it we don't need to fix it all right maybe you just nail just nail that one board on but don't nail it don't hit it too hard because the whole thing could go you see barns and you're nail just nail that one board on but don't nail it don't hit it too hard because the whole thing could go you see barns and you're like there is that even that it can you use holy shit there's stuff in it i mean i i'm not encouraging people i i'm just maybe a heads up

that you know take a look at the barn it looks like it's about to go though it's very charming and it makes the landscape much more engaging and interesting and historical maybe there's a law in all these states hey if you've got a barn built before 1800 don't fuck with it let it just crumble into itself over a century because it looks cool i don't know i don't know how it works up here troy music hall what a fucking place that was built in the 1800s acoustically perfect and like the seats that. Acoustically perfect. And like the seats that they have, there are still the seats. The guy told me they were all cast as entire rows, that the iron was, they're not separate seats. They were cast iron as entire rows. And underneath, there's still the little hook thing, the little thing that you stick your top hat in. And on the

back of each chair, there was a little pouch, a little metal hook for women's shawls, top hats and shawls. That's how far that goes back. And it's weird with these halls that are acoustically perfect, where there's an intimacy to them that transcends even like a small black box theater. I don't know why, but just the way the chairs were situated and how the people sat on the lower level. And I filled up that second balcony too. I did all right these shows. People are coming out having a nice time. But just the way the chairs were situated and how the people sat on the lower level. And I filled up that second balcony too. I did all right these shows. People are coming out having a nice time. But just the way that seats were situated that they couldn't change them. There was nothing modern about the seat situation.

Just the way it was tiered looked a little 1800s-y. Like I could picture people sitting in their 1800s clothes. And obviously a couple of hipsters were there. So they were there, but I could just see and feel the history of the place. Sometimes the venue's history transcends any crowd or any performance that's in there. It is of itself and you feel it and it's humanizing somehow because you can't transcend something that old in structure and sound. And it just makes it so no matter how technologically advanced anything's become,

that you're just people sitting in something that was built before microphones to sound perfect. And it was bigger than the people. So the people were small and it made it very sweet and intimate. Marina Franklin opened for me these last two nights and she did a great job. Should I read an email real quick while I'm sitting here? made it very sweet and intimate marina franklin opened for me these last two nights and it was uh she did a great job should i read an email real quick while i'm sitting here yeah i i do like to

it's not so much tooting my own horn but i'm always surprised at some of the emails i get and how the show influences people this just says uh interview impact in the subject line hi mark i loved your interview with bruce springsteen and made a strong impact on me. What struck me was the warmth and compassion you elicited from Mr. Springsteen in the moment, all caps, through your willingness to engage him from the heart with honesty and humility and vulnerability. moment in which two people were fully present to each other, Mr. Springsteen's humanity and his journey became evident. It's a very nice thing to say, but this is what I found very touching for me. Interviewing is a key part of my job, conducting forensic clinical assessments for juvenile court, and this got me thinking about the process. I get one shot around an hour with the kid and an hour or so with the parent to gather not only the relevant family school and social history but also to gain an understanding of how the youth came to be involved in delinquency what interventions might help prevent further delinquency and how willing

or able the family might be to engage in services under these demands i have resorted to checklists and guides and adopted a business-like manner, which does not invite more detail than needed, thank you. But your interviews with Mr. Springsteen reminded me of the value of bringing something of yourself to the table. Whether it's apologizing that my office is freezing cold or acknowledging that as parents we never stop worrying, I'm again taking the time and making the effort to connect in some small way.

I hope it helps the families I meet feel seen and cared for. At the very least, it reminds me that's what it's really about, being present, connecting, and trying to make this moment a little better for each other, which is what you do. Thank you. Jamie. Yeah, this is very touching to me because I'm glad I helped out. That makes sense. That, you know, like that,

those, of course, those, those things, you know, would be good to connect. But I would like to say, Jamie, perhaps maybe, maybe a space heater would be good in the office if it's that cold, if that's, if it's something you'd have to say more than once. Sorry, it's so cold in here. Maybe, you know, maybe I'm crazy, but space heater might be good so kevin nealon i've always liked him i thought he was hilarious on update i've been a fan of his comedy and i've seen i saw him uh last at the gary shandling memorial and he was uh you know emotional and brilliant and hilarious but touching and it really gave me a whole different perspective on him and i had to have him on but i was concerned that he didn't like me. So we'll talk about that, among other things.

He's currently on the CBS show Man With a Plan, which airs Monday nights. You can go check out his comedy tour dates at kevinnealon.com. This is me and Kevin Nealon back in the garage. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life will i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original

series streaming february 27th exclusively on dis Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Raj. When I go out now, like I just know the store will give me a bunch of spots. What do I got to run around for? Isn't it nice how it's changed? Remember when you used to

wait in line to get on? Yeah, wait in line or like, you know, you'd like, you know, scramble to do nine spots everywhere. Yeah, yeah. But I started in New York. Where'd you start? I started in Los Angeles. Really?

Yeah, but I'm from Connecticut. I went to New York to the Catch a Rising Star to see what comedy was like. Like what year is that? That was in 77. So it was like pretty good then? It was good. It was packed.

You know, Richard Belzer was the emcee. Yeah. A lot of tough comics. Yeah. You know, Richard Belzer was the emcee. Yeah. A lot of tough comics. Yeah. You know, Larry David was on and, you know, all those guys. And I would sit in the audience with everybody just jammed in there and, you know, cigarettes smoke everywhere. Yeah.

You know. Watching Belzer prance around. Yeah. Hecklers, Barry Diamond. Barry Diamond. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He's still around.

Yeah. But that scared me. That whole scene scared me in New York. I'm going to try Los Angeles, man. That's where all the prop comics are. Oh, really? Yeah. He's still around. Yeah, but that scared me. That whole scene scared me in New York. I'm going to try Los Angeles, man. That's where all the prop comics are. It's got to be easier. I was in a prop comic, but I thought I could mix in. Yeah, I mean, New York was like crazy, but I felt like that was really the thing.

I think I came out here, I don't know. LA has always been odd to me. Where'd you grow up? Connecticut, Bridgeport, Connecticut. All your whole life? And Germany. I lived in Germany when I was a kid. Where'd you grow up? Connecticut, Bridgeport, Connecticut. All your whole life? And Germany. I lived in Germany when I was a kid. Why's that?

When I was six until I was ten. My father got a job for, he called it a German outfit, which would have been lederhosen, but it was really a helicopter company. Yeah. He was in a- Yeah, so he worked for Sikorsky Helicopters, and they had a contract with a company over there for an army contract. Uh-huh. But we didn't live on a military base like a lot of the army brats and all the military a company over there for an army contract.

But we didn't live on a military base like a lot of the army brats, you know, and all the military people. We lived in a German neighborhood. Yeah. So I learned how to speak fluent German, and I went to an American school. Did you really? Yeah. Can you still do it?

Yeah, I can still speak it. I'm not as well as I used to. It's kind of choppy. But you understand it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that comes up a lot in everyday life in Los Angeles. it really does when i get down to germantown german's very practical there's not a germantown in la is there i don't think so there's really an italian town

it's weird out here yeah there's no italians that i know of there's no like do you know good italian restaurants like in connecticut new jersey new york there's a good italian restaurant every two miles there's good pizza places. Here's what I think, Mark. I think they should take all the little Italys across the country and put them into one big city.

Yeah. One big Italian city. Little Italy? Yeah. So how old were you when you were in Germany? I was six until I was 10. Wow.

Do you remember? So you have memories. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember, like I said, I lived in a German neighborhood. Most of my friends were German. Right. And I would come home and I'd have these American toys and the German memories of them. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember, like I said, I lived in a German neighborhood. Most of my friends were German. Right.

And I would come home and I have these American toys. And the German kids loved them. They had the old metal lead soldiers with real paint on there. They're hollow and they're tin. Malleable, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would trade them. And my mother would get pissed.

She goes, you know, you traded your good toy for crap. You trade the good plastic G.I. Joe. Yeah. And I remember this was not long after the war ended. It was like 15 years after World War II ended. Really? Yeah. It was like 59.

So there's still that feeling of wreckage and weirdness? I was a kid, so I didn't know anything about that. You didn't sense the darkness? But I do remember going to one of my friend's houses. And his father, I guess, was in the German Navy. And he had one of those display cases in the living room with all the u-boats in it and stuff on the fake water right yeah i remember the time thinking oh this is cool yeah yeah wow i can't imagine like i've never

been to germany have you been back since oh yeah yeah i was back um i was back last december for uh performing for the troops no i did a river cruise down the daniel with my wife and kid oh just to go yeah yeah, we went to Vienna. Was it beautiful? Oh, it was gorgeous, yeah. I've never been to Vienna. Oh, you gotta go. Yeah?

These cruises are great. Just sit on a boat. Bridgeport, Connecticut. That's where the, didn't they have the P.T. Barnum Museum there? Yeah. Yeah, that's where

Tom Thumb is from. He's from Bridgeport? Yeah, yeah. Well, you sort of, you seem to know. Richard Bells is from Bridgeport? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you sort of, you seem to know. Richard Bells is from Bridgeport, too. Is he really? Yeah.

Yeah. I had one bad experience there, because there was a ferry there. I used to watch that ferry every day go to Port Jefferson. I was a lifeguard on the beach down there. Yeah. And I'd watch it a couple times a day, going back and forth. Yeah. What happened?

Well, my buddy lived in, we took the ferry over, because he lived by Port Jefferson. And we were in college, and we were going down there for the weekend and we go you know we're kind of drunky and i was you know i went to college in boston kind of hungover we decided to go to the pt barnum museum and you know some you know some dude old man who must have been with the circus at some point i remember he was missing an eye and he was working there and he said he was you know he could tell people's fortunes like and he grabs my hand in a very awkward way and he looks at my palm and he says you're gonna get in a very bad accident that's bridgeport that's the bridgeport psychics yeah it's all bad news psychics it's fucked me up for weeks just waiting that made you a better driver

yeah well it was just, it was terrifying. But Bridgeport is not like a town you would think would be in Connecticut. It's very industrial. It's a port city. A lot of gangs, mafia. Yeah. You know, like mafia drive-bys and stuff like that. Really?

And I guess apparently, legend has it that Johnny Carson met with Wayne Newton at one of the diners there on Main Street in Bridgeport to discuss some kind of a casino deal. That's legend? That's Bridgeport legend? That's Bridgeport legend right there. And it never happened? I don't know.

You'd have to ask Wayne. So you're going, you're hanging out. Your dad's like in, was he always in airplanes? Yeah, we had airplanes. Like you have guitars and everything around here. He had airplanes and helicopters and constantly smelling airplane glue growing up my whole life. He made models? Yeah, yeah.

Ballsuit from scratch. Uh-huh. With the razor blade. Razor blade. All the different levels of ballsuit strength, you know. Yeah. The paper you put on the top, you know, with the glue. Yeah, with the wings.

Yeah. That was his thing? Yeah, he liked doing that. But he worked he worked for aeronautic company yeah he's an aeronautical engineer so um so my whole life could he fly uh he did know how to fly i don't remember him flying ever though yeah um even though he made helicopters and helped design them and got them built he was not a fan of helicopters oh really yeah because yeah there's so many moving parts and they're always vibrating you got to tighten them like every five seconds you know you got to land and tighten everything he didn't have a lot of faith in the helicopter no no i think he did but but i don't think he liked this did you ever go up in them yeah i've

been up in them i don't like them it's kind of fun when you're up there but yeah as long as you don't start realizing it's just that one. I did a movie a couple years ago. Walker's Shame, it's called. Oh, a Steve Brill's movie. Yeah, Elizabeth Banks. You know, Steve and I went to college together. Did you really?

Yeah, we wrote together. We were best friends, and then it went away. That happens, doesn't it? For some reason. We're okay now. He came came on and we got it back together and i see him occasionally so steve goes um you know we got a helicopter scene you're comfortable in a helicopter i said not really you know not really he goes okay we'll do a green screen uh-huh you know i said okay that'd be great and i'm uh and then he goes you know a day before

hey the green screen's not working out we got a really nice helicopter you know it won't be a problem at all and i'm looking at the weather. It's supposed to be rainy and stuff. And I said, okay, because I don't know how to say no to people, even if my life is on the line. So I go down there and I'm driving to the location and I don't see the helicopter.

It's up on the roof of a high building. And I hate heights to begin with. So I go up there and he's got a whole lot of new lines for me you know on top of being on top of the building and the helicopter so we get into it's like that one of those little helicopters all glass in the front so they have the cameras and stuff and and now we take off from the building and he's got the cameras mounted and he's he's squished behind the back seat and he's going action and i'm going steve let me just rehearse as we're going and get used to this helicopter, okay?

Yeah. And we hung out for like 35 minutes over the 405 freeway, Dodger Stadium. And I think, this is really cool. Right. This is cool. But I'm thinking, you know, let's not push it anymore.

Let's head back. Yeah, we've done it. We got it. Yeah. So you got through the nerves. Yeah, yeah. So that's like one of the few times I've been up in a helicopter.

Oh, God. You have a hard time saying no to people? Yeah, yeah. Is that an issue? It has been in a helicopter. Oh, God. You have a hard time saying no to people? Yeah, yeah. Is that an issue? It has been with my wife. Oh, really? And for me, too. Yeah.

And it's not good. Why? Because you spread yourself thin? Well, yeah. You spread yourself thin, and then the people that you love the most kind of are inconvenienced because you've promised your time to other people. Oh, right, right, right. You know.

I've got to go do a thing. But it's a matter of wanting to be liked and accepted. you know i had to yeah i it definitely yeah i don't know if it always pays off that way it doesn't people start taking advantage of you sure you're like a mark yeah yeah but you know i'm learning all these things later in life you know how to be um a better uh partner and also to have a fuller life and be more, you know, have those boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. Like, no, I can't. Yeah. I don't know about you, but I, I don't get mad. I get mad, but I keep it inside. Oh, good for you. You know, I dump it all over the place.

Passive aggressive and then depression. So I'm learning now to get very angry and to fight. Really? Yeah. So how's it going? We'll, we'll see in the next hour. Well, that's funny because you say that because for years, I thought you didn't like me. I didn't like you? Yeah. And the weird thing is you probably didn't feel either way

because I didn't see you that often. No, no, you're right. I didn't like you. Oh, good. I was hoping he'd say that. No, I liked you fine. You're another comic. Yeah, I always felt like there was some part of it uh like you were almost like oh this guy i have people

like that too i think they see me they go oh this guy yeah this guy no no i it was not this guy it was that guy oh it's that guy yeah no i i had no uh i didn't know you that well i knew you were a funny comic and you know you did your thing you You had a certain style, and I had my whole life. I think a lot of that, sometimes we are perceiving our own insecurities. Well, that's right. But the fact that you say that, a lot of times, if you're one of those people that keeps your anger in, and you control all that stuff, there's part of me that's sort of like, what's he got?

What has he got going on? I can't read that guy. What's up with that guy? This is such a screwy business. It attracts the most insecure people. I know. And odds are you're not going to make it. It's true.

And yet we stay with it. We stay with it. Isn't it weird? Because at some point you don't have a choice. There's nothing in your brain that's sort of like, I could always, you know. There was never any answer to that. Yeah. That was practical. It gets to a point where you're too far in and you can't back out and i like i always had my bs and marketing to fall back on oh you went to college and did that yeah i have

a bs in marketing um but i just got a letter from the college telling me that i can no longer fall back on it okay yeah it's been expired not gonna help you help you. No, no. Where'd you go to school? I went to Sacred Heart University in Connecticut. Catholic? Catholic school. Is that a Catholic thing? It was Catholic, but you didn't really, you couldn't tell it was. We brought up Catholic?

Yeah. Like hardcore? Nah, you know, just church on Sundays. Oh, yeah? We'd get there before the communion. Scared of hell? Five minutes. No.

No, good. Not anymore. Not anymore. Not after show business? Is that, now is that, is that tobacco you're spitting in there? No, it's a coffee. Oh, God. I was going to say, that's a lot of tobacco spit.

No, I wouldn't do that. I've done that occasionally in my life. I enjoy a dip occasionally. Yeah. So I was raised Catholic. How many brothers and sisters? I have two brothers, two sisters. Oh, so it's big.

Yeah. And I have a son. I have a 10-year-old who is not raised in any religion. You're not giving him that? You're not going to do that to him? No, he believes in God. He does? We taught him that, yeah.

He believes there's a higher power. Yeah? And my wife and I, we thought we'd teach him about all different religions and let him choose, but that doesn't really happen. No, not at certain, yeah. And I always thought, growing up, she said, we're not going to baptize him or anything that's ridiculous because she wasn't raised catholic and um and i said okay but in my head i'm thinking well i'll just you know i'll just take him one day when he's like you know eight months old not tell her have the priest

baptize him boom just in case you know just in case and uh and then i let too much time go by now he'll tell her now he'll tell her if I do that. You can't hide the secret? No, no, no. So he's unbaptized. He's just out there in the world defenseless against whatever not being baptized makes you vulnerable to. Yeah, but I will tell you

that I am an ordained minister now. What? I did a thing for the Ellen Show where they wanted me to marry some people at the Little White Wedding Chapel. I was doing some field pieces for her. So they got me ordained. With the Universal Church or whatever?

With the Open Ministry on the World Wide Web. And so I did that. I did some funky marriages out there. And then I just married a friend of mine the other day, Kirk Fox. I was looking over my thing to make sure this was going to be legal. So I was doing research. And then it says on there that I could also baptize people. Really?

Yes. In any church or like i guess in the open ministry thing just baptize somebody doesn't have to be any it's that nomination i guess so that's and and uh is this something you're gonna do like is this maybe like if things start to get thin well i might baptize this career i might baptize my wife and my kid. While they're sleeping? Just to be sure, yeah. Why am I wet? Shh. What do I smell burning? Yeah.

It's an accident. Who smoked a reefer? It's an accident. So, all right. So when do you become disillusioned with the BS in marketing? What kind of jobs were you doing? You would be a great police interrogator. Really?

So you came out of the shop with your friend at about 8 o'clock. Yeah, and then what happened? What were you thinking? Yeah, yeah. It was dark. Why were you holding the gun? Yeah. No, yeah, I only went to get my degree in marketing because I didn't know what I wanted to do.

Or I was afraid to get into comedy. Well, that's one of those weird degrees. Did you actually learn anything? It seems like one of those kind of BS, BSs. You know, I learned how to get work done and the meet deadlines, if anything. And I kind of learned about subliminal advertising, which became one of the bits I did. It's a famous bit. Yeah.

But also, I was interested in music, too, at the time, like you. I love the guitar. I grew up playing the guitar and the banjo, the five-string banjo. Really? You're a good banjo player? Not bad. with steve martin once in a while you know we recorded the theme to weeds oh yeah on one of the uh episodes i could see you guys being friends you guys are pals yeah yeah he's real good though yeah he's really good i don't see him that often but you know when he's in town i see him but i'm not like a big bluegrass fan i don't enjoy

listening to a lot of bluegrass music so do you play like blues banjo no i just play bluegrass songs but i don't play that often i'll pick it up every once in a while and i'm really i'm looking for a lot of like i play the guitar not that well i've been playing forever i got maybe 10 guitars at home nice ones and then i just got a ukulele that i'm learning how to play that's fun i have a mandolin it's really it's like meditative for me to play you know to you know just sort of take the time to do it i don't have many things i don't have the children or wives i don't know how to meditate but if i lock into the guitar for a half hour that's meditation yeah it is kind of isn't it yeah but i am playing the piano now i started taking lessons last july really somebody goes

why now why now yeah what am i? You know, why not now? How are you doing with that with the two hands? Are you good? Because it feels to me like to get the two hands doing different things hard. Well,

that's what you do on a guitar. I guess that's true. But that is a little difficult and also you're reading two different lines of music. I can't read the bass and then the,

whatever they call it, the clef and the treble. And you can do that? I'm learning how to do it. It's not easy, but it's a challenge. And I do like it. I mean, you really can understand music a lot better than what you're looking at on a fretboard.

Yeah. Because it's all laid out there for you. You see all the notes. Yeah. And you could see all the chord. Right. And you can kind of hear it and see where it's going as opposed to just the three chords.

Going to go up to an A now. Yeah. And, you know, I'm learning why an A minor is an A minor, where I didn't really know on the guitar. I just knew how to form it. Right, yeah, you take that finger off and put the other one there. Sounds different. It's sad now.

It's sad, but I do like it. Did you play in bands? I was in a few garage bands. We didn't play that good. You didn't play out? We played at our parties. We would have the party and we would hire ourselves at the band. Right.

You had like six songs. Yeah, yeah. We started playing them over again. Yeah. Yeah. So where'd the comedy bug hit? The comedy thing came from, like a lot of comics,

I was very quiet growing up, very shy. Really? Yeah. I was the opposite kind. Were you? Yeah, never shut up, annoyed people,

disruptive in class. So you had to be funny then. Get kicked out of school. Yeah, yeah. You had to have a reason for doing that. I loved practical jokes. I loved the fake brandy glass,

looked like you were going to throw it at somebody. I remember that. I had one of those. Yeah. The fake puke, the fake nothing ice cream. Sure. I love getting reactions from people like that. The surprise. The surprise. Yeah. And then as a family, we traveled a lot through Europe in cars. We drove a lot on vacations. I learned how to swim in Greece. I learned how to ski in Austria. And so my two brother, my brother and my sister and i were in the car together a lot my other brother and sister weren't born for 12 years later but so we had to keep ourselves busy and entertained sure and so we're always trying to outdo each other yeah so i think that's where

i started developing the comedy and then you know probably like you i grew up watching jerry lewis movies and uh not so much jerry but i think i was more I'm trying to think like Woody Allen I think Woody Allen too yeah the thing that was sort of like holy shit yeah that's funny

yeah Woody Allen came too and then I liked guys like Albert Brooks and Steve Martin and Andy Kaufman because they were so unique

and original yeah my guys early on I think like Buddy Hackett like actually like when I was really young yeah yeah

that was wrong that's not right yeah Jackie Vernon also wrong yeah and then like later i got the records you know i got the richard pryor records the george carlin rec cheech and chong records yeah it was the records you know the records of bill cosby too yeah yeah yeah chicken heart yeah and the first family did you listen to them the kennedy the first family

i didn't listen to them there's a little too much going on for me hey speaking of jackie vernon i i worked with him a couple of times before You did? Before he died, yeah. In Houston, I remember. I just bought a record yesterday, a Jackie Vernon record with a watermelon on front. I don't know what he's doing. I got two comedy records yesterday because I pick them up if I don't have them. Yeah. You know, I don't have a lot of comedy records.

But what was that like? It was interesting. It was early in my career, and I was opening for him. Where? In Houston. Huh. I think Houston is somewhere else. And he was, you know, he'd been doing it forever.

He was out. His idea of that during the day, he would go to a pharmacy, and he'd get a shopping cart in the pharmacy. Yeah. And he loved to get anything that came with like a free umbrella or free cologne with it. Anything with the extra thing. And he'd get a lot

of hair dye uh-huh and uh he would go to the hotel and he showed up at the club that night he had jet black hair yeah and uh he did his famous you know slideshow yeah and um and that was it he you know he flirted with the waitresses uh-huh you know what year was that because i saw him when i was like 11 and that was like sort of a life-changing thing for me my parents took me yeah to a lounge to see him and we were close and he was just sitting there i could just see the weird beaded sweat and he was old yeah he did sweat you know and he was sort of you know just kind of walking through it but it felt dirty you know like just to see be that close to a comic at that age doing that thing that he's done a million times.

It just, it felt like, well, this is a different world. Yeah. Whatever that is. Yeah. I want a part of that.

Well, a lot of those comics from back then, they didn't work in comic clubs. They worked in the strip clubs coming up, you know, same with like Rodney. Yeah. Dangerfield.

Did you know him? I met him. I was close to a guy, um, from car 54, Joey Ross. Oh my God. He's, he's a notorious monster. He's Joey Ross. Oh, my God. You know him? He's a notorious monster.

He's a monster. Well, like, he's like the, he's, you know, you know from being a comic for years that there is a spectrum of behavior. Yeah. That comics are prone to. Right, right. And, you know, he was far into the spectrum. Yeah, well, I knew that he had, it took a real liking to me.

I was bartending at the Improv. This was 1980 yeah and he would come in he knew i was an aspiring comic and uh and we'd get on stage together sometimes you know and we'd do like bits like we he'd have the cigar and we'd talk like we'd been doing vaudeville forever you know yeah oh that's nice and um one day he came into the improv and he goes i might have a job for you yeah he goes what do you get played in a club? Like 25 bucks? I said, yeah. He goes, what is it, Joey? I said, I'll tell you.

Let me think of it. I'll get back to you. I'll tell you now. And he goes, you know, I just married Trudy. I guess her name was Trudy. I forget her name. But she was this ex-prostitute that had her eye shot out in Dallas, I think, a long time ago. A one-eyed prostitute.

A glass eye. Yeah. And he married her. Yeah. And he said, you know, you come from a good family. You're a funny guy. Yeah. You know, good looking.

And he said, you know, she wants to have a kid. I'm 70 years old and I can't, you know, I'm 70. I can't, you know, nothing's happening down there. So, you know, I'll give you what you get in the club, 25 bucks, you go up there and i'll show you a good time too and i'm looking at him thinking you know are you this is a joke right it's a joke and he was serious i said joey let me think about this well you think about it yeah he comes in the next day he sees me makes a beeline to me because you know she's back home thing what do you say yeah right he comes over what

he goes what do you think what do you think i said joe i'm flattered first of all yeah um and uh but it's you know it's not really uh i'm really trying to get into comedy i'm trying to focus on that i can't knock up your wife right now he said so he said come on come on i said okay so because i can't say no so i got a 22 year old somewhere no no no i'm kidding but um you were able to say no on that one i can't say no. So I got a 22-year-old somewhere. No. No, no, I'm kidding. You were able to say no on that one, huh? Yeah, I did say no on that one. Did he have the ante? Did he say like 50 bucks?

No, he didn't. I should have got my agent involved. But yeah, those guys all came from a different, whole different generation of comedy. So now you graduate college. How do you say I'm going to do this? Well, like I said, i wanted to get into music i loved like crosby stills and nash and james taylor that whole thing so you wanted to be a folk singer

so i wanted to be like in a band like that yeah sweet music yeah and it was so hard to like i would go to all the coffee houses at college and i listened to all the music and i play with the candle and have a ball of wax all over my fingers you know yeah stay there for the whole thing trying to get up the courage yeah but but i wasn't even on the list. I was just there to watch. Right. Because I thought I might want to do that. And I was so nervous about singing in front of people. It seemed so intimate.

Terrifying. I feel the same way. Comedy seemed much easier. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I'm terrified of singing in front of people. Yeah. So I remember I was raking leaves once after college.

I was back home, raking leaves, and the radio was on. I had the radio outside listening to music. And a report came on that Freddie Prinze died. Yeah. And it was a big deal. Yeah. And we all knew Freddie Prinze. And it dawned on me then what an impact comedy has on life.

Right. On people. Right. And I thought, in a sense, I almost thought there was an opening in LA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Since he died. So I came out here and- That's one down.

They probably need somebody. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I came out here and- That's one down. They probably need somebody. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I moved to San Diego at first. I drove my grandfather's old car out here and had over 100,000 miles on it. Back then, that was a lot of miles. And breezed through LA,

stopped, met Bud Freeman, saw the improv, went down to San Diego. Me and my buddy hung out there. We got more jobs working. There's department store Santa Claus's down there. You met Bud Freeman? Yeah.

Would you just go by to do an open mic or how'd that in the afternoon we stopped in there just to check out the club oh yeah and he was there yeah and his monocle yeah no this is before the monocle oh yeah and he was showing me the newspaper clippings on the walls what year is that nice this is 78 oh okay so it's like uh sort of heading into that first boom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you go to San Diego? So I go to San Diego, and my intention is to go back to L.A. My buddy met a girl down in San Diego. They ended up getting married, still married, two kids. But I slept on their couch for a little bit.

Then I came. I would go to the comedy store in La Jolla to watch, and there was two guys there. I didn't know who was who. And one of them had a gap between the teeth, and the other one had a big chin, and it was Letterman and Leno. Oh, okay. She was sending two guys there. I didn't know who was who. And one of them had a gap between the teeth and the other one had a big chin. And it was Letterman and Leno. Oh, okay.

She was sending them down there to do the weekend. Yeah. And I would see Johnny Dark down there. Johnny Dark. Kip Adada. Kip. And I thought, these guys are great, man. They were great.

And I would see Robin Williams. Yeah. Like at the laugh stop. So that place was open all the way back then. Yeah, yeah. It's so funny that place, like as the years went by and the ivy crawled up the sides of the structure did you see like like a few years ago i don't remember the last time i did la jolla but i went down there and in in it's in the middle of san diego the entire place is covered in ivy it was like the the earth

was trying to take it back you know it was like how how could she you know franchise the haunted nature of that fucking place on sunset down to san diego and i'm like you walk into that place and you're like it's just as fucking dark and weird as the other one yeah yeah oh you know you see the you see the mc and you go wow this guy's good yeah this is before you kind of knew about comedy yeah yeah and then the opener would come on you go oh that guy's good oh that's better than the mc and the middle guy come on oh no one's gonna be Yeah, yeah. And then the opener would come on, and you'd go, oh, that guy's good. Oh, that's better than the emcee. And the middle guy would come on, and go, oh, no one's going to be better than this guy.

And then the headliner comes out, oh, my God. Right. It's amazing. Yeah, yeah. That's the way it's supposed to work. Yeah. So after that, Mark, I just went up to L.A.

You know, I slept on some couches for a while and got a really cheap apartment with a roommate. $135 a month. We split it two ways. $67.50. Where was it? was uh near paramount oh okay yeah in hollywood what was the other guy doing he was a you know aspiring comic what happened to that he went back to la uh to ohio yeah yeah um through the towel and through

the towel and which is commendable some people don't know when to throw it in that's for fucking sure that's the problem with this business you don't you never know who's gonna fire you you and then after a certain point it becomes a pride thing so how do you start where do you go That's for fucking sure. That's the problem with this business. You never know. Who's going to fire you? You. And then after a certain point, it becomes a pride thing. So how do you start? Where do you go? Well, you try to come up with your own style. You don't have that at the beginning because you're emulating.

Everybody's emulating somebody. Back then, they were emulating either Letterman or Richard Pryor or Woody Allen. And so you go to open mic nights at the comedy store or the improv. Potluck. Yeah, Potluck. That's what I did. I hit all the open mic clubs, tried to get a style together. You were conscious of that? Yeah.

I worked at the improv as a bartender. So I was there at the heyday when the room was packed and Robin was coming back from working. 78? 78, 79, 80, around there. Really? He had the suspenders on from working. He'd go in and kill it you know andy kaufman go on and i'd be watching from like a little peephole up

in the office yeah yeah yeah and um richard lewis destroyed you know all these he saw all those guys yeah because i know yeah they just they'd been there like two or three years by that point right those were the established comics right because like I guess the scene really started in earnest like 74, 75, right? 73, the guys started coming out? Yeah, I think so. And then there was the strike, the big strike, which was, I remember being at the improv

and somebody coming in and saying, Steve Lubecki just jumped off the Hyatt. Oh my God. Did you know him? I did. I knew of him. I saw him. I watched him.

But Richard Lewis was his best friend. He was at the club at the time when this guy came in and said it. And he just freaked. He ran out and almost got hit by a car in Melrose. Oh, my God. So there was a lot of tension during that time. Who's working at what club? Who's striking?

Who's not? It's funny because I had Jimmy Walker had um jimmy walker in here and uh you know he played both clubs and bud thought you know he you know he owed him in the midst he and but you know jimmy was just doing what he was doing and he he brought up the fact that you know it was still not this was like a couple years ago he said you know bud's still mad at me for that i'm like come on come on right and then like i had bud in here and sure enough, I said, you have any grudges? Like, you know, Jimmy Walker. I was like, unbelievable.

But then there was the fire, right? Were you there? I was there that night. Yeah. What the hell happened there? I was bartending. Jack Grayman came out of the back showroom. Jack Grayman.

Yep. A comic. Yeah. All those pictures in the comedy. Yeah. Like he put faces to him. Yeah, I comic. Yeah, all those pictures in the comedy store, like he put faces to them. Yeah, I know. And he looks at me, wide eyes.

He goes, I'm not joking. I'm not kidding. The back room was on fire. The showroom was on fire. So, you know, we called the fire department came. We all piled out, and we watched the place burn down in the back. I don't ever know what happened with that.

There's a lot of different stories about what happened. It was an arson thing. An ar done by by comics from the comedy store uh i've heard other stories like vegas oh really like kind of the mob and oh really yeah because there was a club there too but i don't know what the story is no one knows no when did you start coming into your own then you're bartending so you're doing what one or two spots a week i'm bartending on sunday monday nights the slow nights and i'm you know i'm filling in if a comic doesn't show up, that puts me on, which is fun. So-and-so didn't show up, who can go on?

Me! Yeah. Yeah. He's not only a bad bartender, he's a bad comic. Yeah. So, yeah, I did that for a while. I was getting some commercials. You know, I got an agent.

Did you hang out with Kaufman? I would see him a lot at the improv, and I remember going up to him one night outside the front of the improv because I was such a fan yeah

and I asked him about TM Transcendental Meditation because I knew he was into that and I'm telling you he talked to me for maybe a half hour about it

and I didn't hear a word he said I was just looking at his face looking at the moles on his face you know and just examining everything right and he wasn't in character and he was just being honest yeah i was just being very uh yeah that's wild man i even i think i dated like an ex-girlfriend of his for a while because

she was his ex-girlfriend no no just because well they're around right yeah yeah people who around comedy you're around comedy yeah so when did you meet because you know i i did see you i was at the gary shandling's memorial and it was so sad but so life uh affirming in some odd way and and the your your eulogy was so beautiful and so funny and so real and emotional did you Did you plan that? Well, he died March 24th and the memorial is April 24th, I believe. So I had a month to think about what Gary meant to me and the times we had together and what was so special about him and what was so unique and what was so unusual and what was so special about him. Yeah. What was so unique and what was so unusual and what was so difficult about him. Yeah. You know, the whole being of Gary.

Yeah. So I did plan it. And I would be on the road working and I would be looking at old texts and, you know, emails from him. And, you know, thinking about him really because he was a good friend and I lost a good friend. Yeah. really because he was a good friend and I lost a good friend. So, yeah, I put a lot of that together and I shaped it and I thought about it and I thought about how would I get through this, you know, because I'm not good at that stuff.

Yeah. And so I tried to make it light at times and add a joke, which was also kind of, you know, talked about the essence of Gary. Yeah, it was amazing. He wrote that with me because I would write with him so often on the phone or in person or from out of town somewhere. I could just hear him thinking,

no, this doesn't flow here. You know, that doesn't, town somewhere. Yeah. I could just hear him thinking, no, this doesn't flow here. You know, that doesn't, you know. Yeah. And so it was... It was very powerful. It was very cathartic for me to be able to have that time and do that. Yeah.

And to deliver it. When did you start hanging out with him? I don't know the exact time, but it was probably in the early 80s. Yeah. Just because we both had the same passion and same desires. And so I'd see him in the comedy clubs.

And you guys are joke guys too. Like, you know, you write your shit. Yeah, yeah. It is jokes. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what it is now, but it's, I remember coming from doing a college gig

a couple years ago, maybe 10 years ago now. Yeah. And the girl driving me back to the airport, the college kid, she's quiet in the car, and then halfway there she goes, I really enjoyed your act. Old school. Really?

And so I guess they are jokes, but yeah. I don't say that in a condescending way. I just mean like we all do jokes. Yeah. But there are guys like the one thing that you know having i talked to gary in here you know and it was it was it was great you know it was very spiritual and thoughtful and and and as candid as he's you know willing to get because i didn't know him that well but i i found myself you know really sort of uh impressed and moved and

inspired by him as a person have and i didn't know him. You know what I mean? Like, I knew his work, and I always liked him. But, you know, when I was at the memorial, like, it was really, it was profoundly sort of moving to me to get the kind of, the portrait of that guy from all you guys. And just, you know, what was so special about him. And the reason I talk about jokes and the reason I say it with reverence is that, you know, the way that you balance a joke or the way that he balances a joke and, you know, how it fits with your personality and the sort of control you execute over it and the risks you take within it, they're very real. There's a whole craft in place there. You know, I babble on until something works, and then I do it again. And then I trim it up.

You know what I mean? There's not much on the paper. Yeah. But I became very impressed with, because I don't know that I thought of him. I think what really came together for me when you guys were reflecting on his life was that he really did show himself through his jokes. And I think that when, you know, when people say that old school or, you know, you do jokes or stuff, that the idea is like there's a distance there.

But the thing I didn't really realize fully about him was that, like, he's all in it, you know, in his jokes. Yeah. And his jokes or his material was always changing because he was always changing. Right. And discovery. Yeah. And his jokes or his material was always changing because he was always changing. Right. And discovery. Yeah. And he was always trying to, like he did with his TV shows, always push it. Yeah. Try to get to that next level and evolve.

Yeah. So it was fun to see him with all of his legal pad papers crumbled and scribblings on there mixed in with the Buddhist sayings and things. And then just you know the chaos of all that well the struggle to to sort of you know kind of move your ego aside you know as a comic you know to find some sort of enlightenment when you're you know as neurotic as he was i mean that's like that had to be an ongoing struggle oh yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean if somebody said gary's crazy yeah you couldn't argue with them right you know you would say yeah yeah he's crazy and he's talented and he's sensitive and yeah yeah but crazy is definitely

one of the uh characteristics yeah did you guys tour together a lot we did some touring yeah yeah we did a lot of touring um not? Yeah, we did a lot of touring. Not a lot, but we did a couple of tours here and there. And we'd get together on stage a lot. The Comedy Magic Club, we'd get on stage together and do like a little comedy team thing. You don't see that much anymore, people playing like that. Maybe I'm not out enough, but it used to happen at comedy clubs. Yeah. I think he liked it because it was spontaneous and impulsive.

And we both had a definite character we were doing. I would say to him, why do you have to be with the potty mouth all the time? And he would recoil. And he actually liked it because he didn't want to be on stage alone. Because I guess he was going through a thing where he had stopped doing stand-up for a while. And he was trying to get back into it. And he felt more secure with me on there with him. And eventually the plan was for me to leave the stage and let him do his act this is like just a few years ago right yeah yeah yeah because i saw

him i never go down there but i saw him once there the comedy magic club he showed up there and it seemed like he was trying to get back in it yeah and it was interesting because also he was into boxing yeah you know he had a little boxing gym yeah he and peterberg uh you know leased in santa monica so he loved boxing and and he'd get on stage and he'd almost be going through boxing moves as he's doing his delivery oh yeah yeah and then after a while it became like long he would take long pauses on stage and because people loved him and knew him they allowed it yeah but i don't know what if he was fishing for something or what or if he was just being present trying to be as present and open as possible yeah yeah that sounds like it might be it that's the yeah i knew he was but

also the other thing that like i i gleaned from everyone talking about him was just how secretly almost like in selfless he was in helping people out yeah that's and i knew him well and i didn't know how much involved he was with these philanthropic causes and also just comics comics you know like you needed a little help a little writing yeah this hang out do the basketball game the basketball game was famous i sent him a script once a pilot that I wrote with my wife and he we never really talked about it and after he died

it was sitting on his office desk this was like two years later so it was constantly something that was on his mind I think and him wanting to get to it and he never got to it either he got to it and he didn't like it and didn't want to tell me maybe it's better off you don't know yes And just never got to it? Either he got to it and he didn't like it and didn't want to tell me.

Maybe it's better off you don't know. Yes. Yes. But just that it was still on the table made me happy. Oh, that's nice. Well, I'm sorry you lost your friend. Thank you. It's a horrible thing. Thank you.

So how does SNL happen? You know, before I forget, you know, I was a guest on The Conspiracy Zone. You know that. Were you really, I was a guest on the Conspiracy Zone. You know that. Were you really? I was. Which episode? It was so weird, man. Like, that was like 2002.

And I got, you know, it was like, you know, and I was sort of like into conspiracies, kind of. But, you know, it was kind of a vague show in a way. It was. Yeah. And, you know, it was like, i think there was a panel of people and you had certain i hosted it and we had a panel of uh experts quote unquote yeah on the topic yeah and uh like we did one uh did we really land on the moon yeah right and we tried to get buzz aldrin yeah and he called me at home he goes i'm just not going to um i'm not going to um validate

any of this by doing that i appreciate you wanting me on the show, but I just thank you, but no thank you. He was aware of the conspiracy theory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was on Oddly. I was nervous about it, and I was on with Ann Coulter. She was on too, huh? Yeah.

And at that time, which showed you how naive I was about politics and the whole world. I was so self-consumed or whatever because a couple years later I got very involved in politics, but I had no idea who she was. I probably didn't either. Yeah. Well, you have a booker, right? And I kind of knew you

and you kind of knew me, but I don't remember what I said or what we were talking about, but I was booked on that show and I did it. I don't know if anyone saw it. That was Scott Carter who created that show. I did it. I don't know if anyone saw it. That was Scott Carter that created that show. That was it. Scott Carter.

From Bill Marshall. Yeah, from Politically Incorrect. Yeah, yeah. That's why Coulter was on. That's right. That's right. That would have been it. Yeah, that kind of came and went,

that show. But it was fun doing it. Saturday Night Live came. I was not pursuing Saturday Night Live. I was a stand-up. All I wanted to do was stand-up. And were you doing all right? I was doing good, yeah. Yeah, I quit the bartending job. I was working on the road. I was doing pursuing Saturday Night Live. I was a stand-up. All I wanted to do was stand-up comedy. And were you doing all right? I was doing good, yeah.

Yeah, I quit the bartending job. I was working on the road. I was doing some commercials. And that was a big club boom, so there's a lot of clubs. Yeah. So you're headlining. Yeah, because I did The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, and that went well. What year was that?

That was 84. And who were your friends at that time? Were you hanging out with Dana? I still have my answering machine from all my congratulations from my friends, like Gary Shanling. Oh, really? Brad Garrett, Paul Reiser, those types of people. Oh, really?

You have the tape? I do, yeah. I'm nostalgic. I save a lot of stuff. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. So Johnny Carson, that kind of came quickly. A couple years in?

Got into stand-up in like 78 79 and that came in 84 yeah and i auditioned a few times before for jim mccully sure and it's always nerve-wracking yeah you know and and then i never passed and then he calls and he says hey mike nesmith from the monkeys is doing a show and he um you know we'll put you on the bill too see if you could pass you know see if you could be on the show so i said I'm going to do what I think is funny and not do what I think Johnny Carson will like. And I did that. And he calls me the next day. He goes, Hey, the good, the bad news is you're not doing the Mike Nesmith show. The good news is you're doing the tonight show if you'd like. So it happened very quickly. And it meant something. It meant something. I mean,

that was the show. It was the only show. Right. And Johnny Carson. Yeah. And now you don't even really put it on your resume because it dates you you know yeah but but but at that time you do it and everyone watches so you it ups your your your crowds right you you start people want to see you at the club i had met this guy mike brown he's still a good friend of mine my best friend and he um he and i meshed. He wasn't even a comedy writer. He worked for UPS. Yeah.

And we just hit it off, and we started writing stuff together. And that's kind of ultimately what got me on The Tonight Show. And I'm going over my five-minute act in my head, you know how you do before you go. Oh, yeah. And this is huge. I've never done a big TV show like this before. And I'm going over it. Because three days later, I'm going to do it.

Yeah. And you could be talking to me now, and I'd be nodding. You think I'm listening, but really, I'm going over it because three days later I'm going to do it. Yeah. And you could be talking to me now and I'd be nodding. You'd think I'm listening but really I'm going over my act. Sure, yeah. I get to the Tonight Show. I had been there before.

When I first moved out here I would go all the time to the Tonight Show because it was free tickets. Yeah. It was like a Vegas show. So you'd go watch. I would go watch.

You did a lot of watching before you did something. Yeah. A lot of pacing. And so I'm behind the curtain. Jim McCauley's there and the band's playing i know the band i know everybody in the band because i watch them so many times yeah i know what johnny's sitting yeah and the band stops and i'm going over my act my head

yeah and johnny introduces me the curtains open up a crowd applause i go blank no come on my act i swear to god i cannot think of my act which, which has been a current nightmare for me over the years. Oh, how could that go away? And I get out to my mark, and they're applauding still, and I'm trying to remember my opening line, and the applause subside, and it comes into my head, and I start, and I'm getting laughs and applauses and laughs, and I can't believe it.

And Johnny behind me, I could hear him laughing, and Ed McMahon, and I'm out on the floor now now I'm doing what I've watched so many people do right from the improv watching the other comics on the TV set yeah there and I do it and I finish and um I go back behind the curtain Donnie gives me the okay thing I go behind the curtain I'm so happy I'm so relieved and Jim McCauley goes okay great job hang here i think johnny's gonna want you to come out talk to you after the commercial yeah and i said what he goes yeah what can we talk about he goes oh you'll just you'll be fine just go out there so i go out there and bam more jokes bam and i've it's like the prize fight that i always wanted

yeah it was like my dream come true and to this day it's the highlight of my over saturday night live or weeds or anything like that that was the highlight of my, over Saturday Night Live or Weeds or anything like that. Right. That was the highlight of my career. And then I went to my friend Mike's house and watched it with him and his wife, Anita. And I knew everybody

was at the improv watching it. Yeah. And the place just was quiet there. People would tell me, quiet. And everybody just applauded afterwards. And it was like

the biggest thing of it. You know, to this day, Yeah. I'm still like, you know, floating on air. And between the time I taped it and before it aired that night, I was praying there wouldn't be some disaster. Right, right, right. You know, preemptive.

That's an amazing experience. Amazing story. It was totally cool. The electricity of it because like, and it was Johnny. It was Johnny Carson. And he, in between, you know, in the commercials,

he's smoking a cigarette. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I picked the video of him throwing his head back laughing at a joke, you know? Yeah.

It was just, it was just everything I dreamt of. Oh, it's so good that that worked out for you. Yeah. And also that there was that moment where it went away.

It went away. It went away. Oh, man. I remember I did one of the subsequent uh spots i did on there you know i approved it all with jim mccauley yeah and i go out there and i said you know i'm getting ready for the holidays i'm doing a lot of drinking and driving yeah and i didn't know that johnny had a dui you know he's like a famous dui or something right and jim mccauley after goes hey where did that joke come from? I said, that was always the first joke.

He goes, no, I never proved that. So they gurgled it when they aired it. Oh, they did? I come out, I go, how's it going, everybody? Well, I'm getting ready for... No. Yeah. And I don't think I ever did the show again after that.

Really? Yeah. But it doesn't matter because the first one I did, I've only done maybe eight of them. I don't know. Maybe four. Four, yeah.

But then I did a lot with Jay and Chandling and Joan Rivers. Oh, you did a lot. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I remember the first Letterman because Letterman was more my generation's guy. You know what I mean? I love Johnny, but he was gone before the, like, that ended before I had the show. That was the race, too.

That was the chase to get on before he left. Yeah. So there was a ticking clock, too. Right. Yeah. But, like, doing Letterman the first time was mind-blowing yeah yeah that's a good one too yeah but it took like years before i talked to him you know like where i sat i did i actually did an all panel one with him before you know and it was uh it was that feeling of like because that's that was always really the grail as a comic. It wasn't really getting a TV show or any of that for me.

It was like, you want to do that. You want to go be a comic. Yeah. On the TV. That's what you're aiming for. That's your goal. Yeah, that's the grail. It really meant something to do Letterman.

I'd have friends who did it and be like, ah, fuck. When am I going to do Letterman? I know. So how did SNL happen? I was living in a house in the Hollywood Hills. And then Dana Carvey would rent the room over the garage when he was in town. There's a little studio apartment over the garage. And I knew Dana from the stand-up clubs.

Yeah. And I was dating Jan Hooks at the time. Oh, yeah. I had known Jan Hooks for seven years. Always was attracted to her. We became really good friends. But she was always dating somebody else. Right. attracted to her. We became really good friends. But she was always dating somebody else.

Right. But ultimately, we ended up dating that year that Dana got, that summer that he got SNL. And Jan was up for it. And I was excited for them both. I was reading backstage live,

Saturday Night Live, the original years. Yeah. And I was excited. Never thinking that I would even be considered for it. Right. You don't have a high power agent

to get you a showcase even. And so I get a call from Dana that summer. He goes, Kev, I'm at Lorne Michaels' house. I'm in the back bedroom. Guess who's in the kitchen? Bill Murray and Dan Aykroyd. I said, you're kidding me. No. Anyway, I told Lorne about you. They're looking for another cast member.

I told him he might want to see your videos. I said, Bill Murray's in the kitchen with Dan Aykroyd? He goes, yeah. And he goes, I gotta go. Somebody's coming. So I send him my might want to see your videos. I said, Bill Murray's in the kitchen with Dan Aykroyd? He goes, yeah. Holy. And he goes, I got to go. Somebody's coming. Yeah. So I sent him my tapes thinking nothing's going to happen.

Right, right. What kind of tapes though? What were they? It was a stand-up from The Tonight Show and things like that. I sent it in. I don't think I'll hear back. Two weeks later, Dana calls me back. I'm back at Lauren Michaels' house. Guess who's in the kitchen?

Steve Martin. Yeah. I said, no way. Anyway, Lauren liked your tapes. I think they're going to fly you in for an audition. Yeah said steve martin's in the kitchen i gotta go somebody's coming and uh so now i'm in the mix so they're gonna fly me in and i fly into new york thinking it's just a free trip to new york i'm not gonna get anything from it you know i'm a stand-up i don't get characters or skittles and everybody else is on the plane is going in for that one role too yeah

yeah yeah yeah. It's never easy. Even the pilot comes out of the cockpit. Hey, you think this is funny for my audition? And so I get there and everybody's nervous

and sweaty. I'm having a good time. I'm excited. Here's 30 Rock. Oh, wow, this is cool. You know, and they call me and I do my little audition.

I do some standup and I do, you know, Dana and I worked on a few characters like in the driveway of our house we would kind of jam on different ideas. Yeah. So they were loosely, loose I do you know Dane and I worked on a few characters like in the driveway of our house we would kind of jam

on different ideas so they were loosely loose characters you know yeah and so I flew back to LA thinking I'll never hear back

and next thing I know I'm meeting with Lorne Michaels at some high rise in Century City he's offering me a job on SNL you know

he talked for about an hour about the show and what I would be doing and he excused himself to go to the restroom. Brad Gray was my manager at the time. Right. And also his manager.

And he goes, here's what we should tell him. Tell him you think about it over the weekend. You know? And I'm thinking, are you crazy? Yeah. So it was almost timing, like they had it planned. Yeah. And then Lauren comes back and he sits down.

Well, what do you think? I said, well, let me think about it over the weekend. And he looks at me and goes, well, you think about it over the weekend and we'll see you in new york on monday so i'm at a lauren michaels house you know and then i got a call from dana yeah kev i'm out in the back bedroom guess who's in the kitchen i said i am i'm in the kitchen now i'm in the kitchen that was it that was it yeah and then jan got hired on the show and uh and it was it was an interesting run is it how long was it like six years i was on for eight years wow yeah i've been really lucky you know i've had really good long runs snl yeah weeds was for eight years yeah

you know and now i'm on a new show that's hopefully will be running for a long time what's it called it's called man with a plan oh yeah that's what you're here to promote well not necessarily no i know but it's monday nights at 8 30 oh good we got that in no but like uh with snl like were you was he thinking of you for update well i mean was that the slot i think he might have been dennis was doing it at the time he was doing well but i think you know if the day ever came that dennis was leaving that he thought dana told me that dynamite who worked for Lauren at the time yeah one of the producers said Dana do you know any like Chevy Chase types like we need a tall guy and then he goes well I actually know this guy Kevin Nealon he's tall and funny and

yeah so maybe that had something to do with it right um but what were you doing initially you did a few characters well I did Mr. Subliminal. Oh, that's right. Because I was doing that in my act. Yeah. And I went to school for that. And then Al Franken and I kind of came together and wrote the advertising guy. Yeah. And that was it.

And then the next year, Dane and I came up with the Hans and Franz characters. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was more the everyday guy. I wasn't big on characters. I never did characters. Right. Anything I did, like if it was Brent musburger or something right it's just because somebody came up but i'd look like the maybe yeah you know if i pull my eyes down you can do voices

and stuff i can do voices yeah in fact i wanted to be an impressionist originally but then i thought i want people to make do impressions of me right not me doing impressions of other people you know yeah i liked your update i was i was i was on board you know i look at it now and i think yeah i would do it differently now you do back then i like you know i like the way chevy chase did it so i try to keep it kind of real dry yeah dry you know yeah but i look back now and i kind of cringe but you know at the time that's what i that's what i chose the jokes were good jokes were good i wrote them all i i had people faxing me jokes i think that's why i liked it because i knew it was you. You know, Dennis wasn't even trying to do a newscast.

Right, right. You know, but you were honoring the format. Exactly. And, you know, you knew what you could do comedically. And, you know, you kind of made it your own in a way, but honored the original idea. Yeah. I'm a newscaster. Yeah.

That's it. I'm a straight, you know, dry newscaster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's the news. Yeah, I liked it. That's news to me. That's it. I'm a straight, you know, dry newscaster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's the news. Yeah. I like it. That's news to me. That's right. That's funny.

Who was, like, you went through a lot, there were a lot of guys around you. I mean, you do a lot of Sandler movies, so I assume you're close to Sandler. Well, Sandler I met on SNL. Yeah. Actually, I met him at the comedy club in New York. Yeah. The comic strip or the improv. It was a comic strip.

Yeah. That makes sense. Comic strip or the improv? It was a comic strip. Yeah. That makes sense. And he was a young kid at the time. And we're walking back to the Catch a Rising Star, another club. And he knows I'm at SNL. He's excited. He went back and told all his roommates at NYU that he hung out with me and stuff. And then ultimately he gets on the show.

And he does Weekend Update a lot. Yeah. When I do Weekend Update. And I'm open to him doing whatever he wants to do Opera Man Red Headed Sweatshirt yeah and so he's very

grateful I guess about that and we become buddies and he's kind of loyal in that way he uses the same kind of group of guys yeah yeah you know on a lot of his films

yeah and it was interesting because I was watching this you ever see Charlie Chaplin Untold I think it's called Untold Chaplin something like that

he always burned all of his cuts you know his edits yeah his guy burned them all Chaplin, Untold, I think it's called Untold, Chaplin, something like that. He always burned all of his cuts, his edits. Yeah. His guy burned them all. But apparently his editor didn't burn them all and they put together this string. It's Unknown Chaplin, that's what it's called. And he put together this thing, a DVD, and it shows how he works on all his films

and the pain and how long it takes to get him and how the scene changes so much. Maybe it starts with a fountain in the lobby of the hotel. Yeah. And then they get rid of that because it's not working. They put a staircase there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or an escalator.

And it was really interesting to watch that. But I noticed that he used a lot of the same actors in all of his films. Sure. So I guess, you know, it's kind of. Well, no, I think ensembles are good. You get to know people and, you know, and also i think people who watch the movies are happy to see everybody yeah yeah you're familiar with them and i know steve directed a couple you were in steve did yeah that when you had the boobs on your head little nicky yeah yep odd movie the weirdest

sandler movie i think that was and that that one i guess didn't do that well for the sandman but he did what he wanted to do. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's the great thing about Sandler. He does what he thinks is funny. Yeah. And most of them work all the time.

And are you friends with Spade and everybody? Yep. Spade. I see Dane a lot. I just had Eugene Levy in here. He lives out by you. Oh, I love Eugene. Yeah.

Yeah, we did a sitcom together once. Which one? It was called Hiller and Diller with Richard Lewis. Me and Richard Lewis. Eugene Levy. He's great, man. I love him. Don't go golfing with him. No? It takes him forever to hit the ball. Eugene, he gets out of the car and he goes,

interesting. Let's see. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, not's see. Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh, no, not that one. You're like, geez, come on. You play a lot of golf? I don't play a lot of golf.

I play like once a year, and I'm not good. But I do one tournament in the summer, and it's called the American Century Championship. It's on NBC. Yeah. A lot of athletes play. Yeah. roger aaron rogers a lot of charity stuff yeah and it's on camera and it took me like i've been playing that for like 12 13 years now yeah the first six years i was a nervous wreck and now it doesn't matter you know oh wait oh thank god um i hate when i get like a text you know on here i am in the middle of a conversation and it's like an issue yeah it wasn't a major issue nothing for you to be concerned about i was still 100 present i maybe missed 20 seconds yeah i'm just telling you that i know i don't

know those 20 seconds you did yeah you felt it yeah when was it? I said something funny and you didn't hear it. Oh. So I did the laugh. I did a little courtesy laugh for myself. Well, I apologize. That's not like me. No, that's all right. I remember pitching an idea once to a producer.

Yeah. And I would look down at my notes. And every time I looked up, I would catch him watching the game behind me on the TV with the sound off. I had a guy, I went to a meeting with an agent once when I was looking for an agent and the guy had just gotten a Casio address book phone when they were popular. Literally spent a half an hour telling me about the phone. Did not ask me any questions. I felt when I left like, I got to get one I think. I'm going to have to get one.

It's horrible going into those things. I remember one guy, I was reading lines for a part. He started laughing. He got into a laughing fit. We couldn't stop laughing. And at first, I thought it was kind of funny,

and maybe he was laughing at the way I did something. And then I realized he was kind of laughing at the situation that I was there reading probably for him, and I was bad. Right. And then I realized he was kind of laughing at the situation that I was there reading probably for him and I was bad. Right. And how it's his job.

Laughing for the wrong reason. Yeah, yeah. And then he just, he said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I said, okay, well, okay. Well, it was nice meeting you. And I left. I could hear him laughing as I left.

My friend Jerry has a story about going into pitch and he's pitching to the guy and the guy's distracted and seems upset. And there's a pause, and I guess the guy says, I'm sorry, my mother passed away today. And Jerry's like, okay. He goes, but go ahead. Go ahead.

Just horrible moments in show business. Oh, man. It is the worst. But you see, like, you know, you always work, and you're always engaged, and you do work outside the box, and you're not afraid to, you know, I didn't see Weeds. I'm sorry. You would have loved it. I'm going to watch it.

I tell Howard Stern the same thing. He's never seen it. I said, you and Mark Maron would have loved Weeds. I was on the show once with Howard. Were you? It was a big deal. It was another one of those big deals. Because I didn't grow up with Howard, but I know on some level we do a similar thing.

And I was always intimidated by Howard. Oh, yeah. And I finally got an opportunity to do the show. And he'd been shitting on podcasts and whatever. And he doesn't want to acknowledge that they exist. That's fine. I just wanted to have the Howard experience. And it was funny because it was one of these, like I was nervous.

I'm like, what's he going to find on me? Yeah. nervous i'm like what's he gonna find on me yeah oh totally yeah what's he coming at me with yeah and i was nervous i was sitting there and i'm watching the tv and you know i'm sitting there waiting and they have the screen of howard on break in there and i just see him in there he doesn't have his sunglasses on he's eating cantaloupe out of a bowl and i'm like that's just a jew eating cantaloupe you know i can handle this yeah what am i afraid of and i'm why i go in there and they they do they they try to you know to fuck with your head like you yeah you walk in all of a sudden you have headphones on and you're you're in it yeah yeah like you know i'm on to that trick i'm not gonna throw me well i tell

i woke up maybe three years ago and i said i I want to do things that excite me, that scare me a little bit. Yeah. You know, I'm tired of just playing the game that I know. Right. And one of the things was doing the Howard Stern show and the other one was the Bill Maher show, real time. Because I'm not that politically, I'm not a political junkie or anything.

Yeah. And I did both of those shows several times and it was great. I had a great, it was so exhilarating. Well, if Bill likes you and he knows you, it's fun. Yeah. You know what I mean? But Howard, I didn't know. Yeah. I went in there and he was, it couldn't haveilarating well if Bill likes you and he knows you it's fun yeah you know what I mean but Howard I didn't know yeah

I went in there and he was it couldn't have been I think he likes comics yeah he definitely does like a lot of my friends used to do it and I was always upset

I couldn't do it and then when I walked in they're worried about what he was going to have on me I know you anticipate everything I had answers for everything didn't have to use any of them

yeah all he said was like so I hear you're an asshole and I'm like oh okay this is easy sure I can do that I hear you're an asshole. And I'm like, oh, okay, this is easy. Sure, I can do that. I can answer to the asshole thing. And it was fine. It was good.

I'd like to go back. But do you feel that same way about acting? Like when you do something like Weeds? Well, I've been really lucky because I've had a lot of, you know, I've been able to write. Yeah. As a job, I've been able to act in a lot of different, I've done single camera weeds. Yeah. Live TV.

Yeah. Saturday Night Live. And now I'm doing a multiple camera show. And movies with Sandler. So, you know, my career has always been kind of interesting for me. I didn't get caught in one rut, you know. And I have the standup that I do. You still go out a lot?

Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Where do you play? Well, I'll be at the Comedy Works in Denver. I love that place. March 24th and 25th. That place is almost too good.

Yeah. March 24th and 25th is the Comedy Works. So it's a great place to work stuff out, but you can't trust it because the room is so hot. It is hot. I filmed a special there. You did? Yeah.

So in that sense, I've been kind of lucky. I've done a lot of things that keep me interested. So what's the man with the plan? Did you create it? No, I didn't. Don't get angry't this is a plan this is a is this the new

angry Kevin I've created a couple other shows that didn't go which ones well you don't know them one was called

stays in Vegas yeah and the other one was called the pleaser how far did they get well we got them to studios

Warner Brothers and Fox you didn't shoot either didn't shoot them no they didn't sell them to a network the ple brothers and fox you didn't shoot either didn't shoot them no they didn't sell them to a network the pleaser would be about you and your people pleasing yeah pretty much which we turned into a film yeah and now we're looking for investors to shoot that oh it's an outreach today maybe someone's listening be like i'm ready brilstein entertainment partners yeah yeah that's you're still with them yeah Yeah. Okay. So anyway, I've done those two.

But Man With a Plan is, I was just doing stand-up. I was writing this film, The Pleaser. And then my agent sent me the script. They said, you have a chemistry meeting with Matt LeBlanc if you'd like to do this show. So they sent me the script and I read it. A chemistry meeting? Where you just sit there like, see if you... It an audition hit it off with the yeah with the guy yeah yeah it's a nice way of saying audition to someone who's been in the business for a while okay they

don't want to insult you uh so but it does mean you're going to be reading with the primary yeah right so that morning i had a dentist appointment yeah and there was more work that needed to be done than i thought and i'm and the audition the chemistry meeting is out in the valley so they got me tilted back in the chair and he's got to give me extra novocaine and i see the clock ticking and my auditions like in 30 minutes yeah that's all the time i'm gonna have to get there yeah so i got i said i gotta go it wrapped up and he gave me extra novocaine my whole side of my face is numb yeah so i said how long will this take for the wear off? He goes, oh, by this afternoon you should be, and I got a half, in a half hour I got to be.

So I'm tapping it all the way and I'm driving the canyons, you know, and looking at my lines and stuff. And I'm sitting in the room and Matt LeBlanc comes in, you know, off to the side. Yeah. You know, the producers are in another room, they're waiting. Yeah.

He goes, hey, you want to run this for a little, try it? Okay, you know, so we try it. And then he goes into the other room, they go, how is he? He goes, well, you want to run this for a little while? Try it? Okay, you know, so we try it. And then he goes into the other room. They go, how is he? He goes, well, you know, he's really funny, a little shaky in the lines. He probably said he probably had a stroke.

I think the guy had a stroke. Is that what he said? Because my whole side was like, no, like that, you know. He's got Bell's palsy. Yeah. But anyway, so they hired me. He liked me, and Malabong's amazing. You know, he's really, I thought I knew everything about comedy

and getting the most out of a laugh, but he knows structure and character. Really? He's been doing it so long. I mean, he could just look at a scene and go, no, this is missing. We need this. We need that.

Just from all those years. All those years and friends and Joey and episodes. Isn't that interesting? Because I guess there's an element to doing that type of you know three camera thing that you know is not in your wheelhouse right right so and that's a very it can be pretty sticky sometimes and it's hard to subvert the shtick to to make it real enough to not be dumb yeah Yeah. I think it's a really good show. He's great in it. Yeah.

Liza Snyder's great. Yeah. You know, Matt Cook. So many great actors in there. Of course, myself, probably the best. Yeah. How many did you shoot? Well, we started with 13.

I wasn't in the pilot. I came after the pilot. Mm-hmm. We shot 13, then got picked up for a back nine. So, 22. Great. But it's great because I wanted to be home more and you want to be on the road so much yeah this is like perfect job it's a great schedule do you feel like you have to go

out there I mean is it is it is it well I mean that's sort of weird personal question is it financial you love to do stand-up well I love to do stand-up yeah I don't I love making money too the money is good now sure you know there's not many of us that can go out and make that much money sure yeah yeah as a comic established you can go out and make a good hunk of change yeah i know that's this been the first time i've been able to do that you can make up the two thousand dollars in one week it's amazing do you remember the day where you realized like like i like when i started making money as a stand-up maybe it took a long time it took you know just like five years ago because of the podcast or whatever that i had an audience and like you know the first time you do a door deal at a club and you get that check and

you're like wait what what this is all for is this a mistake but then that a moment after that you like all those dudes back in the 80s you know who were big then and you're middling or featuring like they were walking like when i was doing 1500 weeks thinking i was winning those guys were walking with all that cash i know it was mind-blowing and now they're not well i hope they saved it yeah man yeah now this new uh this new approach to life that you're having you experiencing your anger, is that integrated into the act? You got an edge now? No, I don't think I'll ever have an edge. But self-revelation, I guess, is always helpful when you're writing.

You're standing up and how you think about things. I think a comic is kind of like a blues musician you have to kind of live life you have to evolve to create some kind of you know yeah you don't want to get stuck yeah yeah i think that's one of the liabilities of a lot of the guys we talk about that have sort of gone you know toward the wayside there are some dudes that are always writing new stuff but there was definitely a generation of comics that couldn't get past the first hour. Yeah. Yeah. So you have to constantly keep digging deeper into yourself, too, like Gary would say. You've got to stay open and present and truthful if you want to do that kind of comedy.

And that's like that. I got very reassured, sadly, at the memorial about what I was doing by hearing about him and getting to know him through you guys. Like it really, it had a profound impact on me, you know, because I, I work like that. I am pretty, you know, put myself out there. There's never like, I never feel protected on a comedy stage. It's not sort of like, I'm going to hide behind jokes. I just don't have that. Yeah. And, and like when things are like they are now where, you know, things are up in the air and scary and everything, I'm, you know, I'm scared in the air and scary and everything, I'm scared. So I got to go out there and I've got to somehow share that as a common experience.

Yeah. And it's daunting. And you're brave to do that too. I mean, you know, a lot of comedy now is confessional comedy. Yeah. And people don't seem to have a problem with confessing to whatever they do that may not be accepted. Yeah. Well, it really puts you on the spot.

whatever they do that may not be accepted yeah it well it really puts you on the spot and it also i think is a reaction to the fact that you know if you don't have a very defined point of view and and you're you're writing topical material or trying to be an observer because of there's so many comics you know someone else can be fucking doing the joke so in a lot of ways all you got is yourself yeah so it better be specific you got to be as specific as possible i tell like newer comics that too i say there's so many comics now you got to be original you got to be unique otherwise you'll just blend in to the background you'll work maybe but you know you'll never really and sometimes it's hard to you can't just do that on purpose it has to evolve it has to evolve and you know i go out and i do comedy maybe two times a week

now two or three times a week right on town yeah and i see other comics who are like i was these younger comics that are doing maybe three sets a night every night yeah and they're and i'm thinking wow man if i was doing that i would have like two hours of material within a year sure you know oh yeah but um but yeah i think uh when you're in touch with your emotions, it really helps. And I think getting therapy also as a comic is helpful. Yeah. Because it helps you dig into that. Yeah, yeah, to figure out where some of it's coming from.

Put it together. Yeah. Yeah. Like, there was a joke I was working on that was completely, you know, like, the only way I got confidence from it was, you know, from thinking about Gary and thinking about you is that, cause I don't, when I have a structured joke, you know, it's very easy for me to think it's some sort of trick, you know, you know, but like if there's a structured joke, you know, cause I, I have jokes, but like I do it conversationally, but like if I have one where I'm like, I know there are beats here and I have to wait for

this and it might not work, but I believe in it. I had a couple of those and they came after I was at the memorial service. And I was like, I'm going to do this by drawing from the inspiration of Gary. And it felt very satisfying to sort of hold it,, you know, just don't, you know, don't second guess it, let it sit. It's, it's a,

it's a tough one to process, but it's worth it. And I stuck with it and it worked. It was very, I don't know why I'm telling you. I'm just telling you. No, I, I love hearing stuff like that because I'm,

I'm always trying to examine the avenue of comedy and what would improve my delivery or my, you know, writing or performance and it's it's you're always learning something new and and that's why i like trying to get out and mix with people yeah you could watch and learn things and yeah and um it's every time you get on stage there's something can happen that's right there's a revelation there yeah if you allow it to happen i i have to it's like that's sometimes the best things that happen on stage are those

moments that like probably no one really noticed quite. But you're like, oh, that thing I did when I just said that thing out of nowhere? That was the best part of that hour and a half.

Yeah, yeah. I haven't seen your act in a while, but when I used to see you, and I've seen you on TV, more of an anger kind of a thing? Do you go on stage thinking nobody likes you?

I used to. That's sort of gone. Like, that sort of went away in the last five years. And the reason it went away was, you know, I became more comfortable with myself by doing this. Yeah. So, like, I'm really not, you know, I'm worked up sometimes and I'm still sort of, you know, self-centered and neurotic. But I'm not angry because a lot of that was really just uh fear yeah and it's something happened like five years ago

like i started doing theaters you know and like there was this moment where i'm like i go always go early you know to the sound checker to see the space and to walk around it and there was just this moment where i'm like i live up here like some part of me this is this is this is the one place where you know safe yeah i own this place you know what what what am i assuming the worst for and it was lifted yeah like i there's no i don't have any fear yeah this is this is your home right i remember i remember going through breakups yeah i would always get devastated even if i went out with it for six months yeah you know the world was over and yeah i would shave i'd stay in bed but and then i would do these stand-up gigs yeah i'd have to get on stage you know as miserable as i was but then i would forget about it for like you know 20 minutes or a

half hour and i would be okay and yeah then i get it was like leaving disneyland when i got off the stage like oh back to the real world exactly yeah that definitely happened and I've gone through breakups and divorces where I would process them on stage and those were not great shows for people I don't know that I don't know if it was everyone's idea of a night out but no

I know I think sometimes you could be abusive with the audience and i've seen a lot of comics i've probably done it too where you just stay on stage because you're you know they're letting you because you're popular you're well known and yeah and you just rambling and you're not getting any laughs and you're using the audience and it's weird though because that quietness that weird silence of them tolerating you, there's no more, it's almost like there's a freedom to it. Like, you're all alone, and it's all your space, and it's a very weird feeling when they don't know what's happening, and you don't know what's going to happen, and you're

just standing there. There's some weird elation to that. And a lot of times, if I'm not doing as well as I want to be doing, that's when I'll go long. Like, I'll just keep going. You'll make them pay. Well, yeah. There's that angle. But I like to frame it as like, well, at least I don't want them walking out going like, you know, we didn't get our money's worth.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, like, if it wasn't as funny as they wanted, at least they could walk out and go like, he fucking did two hours. You know? Like, it wasn't great but god he tried the thing when you get on stage though the audience is looking to you they want to know that you're comfortable and that you're running the show because if not they feel uncomfortable it's like you're a bad pilot right what's gonna happen so you gotta kind of like yeah let them know that you're in charge

yeah and everything's gonna be cool and they gotta believe it yeah yeah and make it okay for them to laugh yeah yeah yeah but if you go on stage and you're like upset yeah you know you're oh yeah frazzled and i go no this guy's not good it's gonna be a problem for this is gonna be a draining evening yeah yeah oh yeah so i'm gonna have to give some fake laughs to make them feel better that's a lot of work for me oh that the feeling of bombing like those bombs where where like there's nothing you can do and like it's probably your fault yeah you know like you're just not connecting and like that feeling of like you know i'm not gonna i'm not gonna get out of this but i think that's good though to be able to be in that position i very rarely put myself in that like i'll i'll take old stuff oh yeah i was gonna kill just so that they get laughs and i walk off yeah and

applause you know but there's been a couple of times in my life where something just collapsed where the fear or whatever or i just you know the confidence went away it's been a long time but where i got to go up for an hour and i and i you know and i and i try and then like you know i remember there was a time where I was less professional. I think part of being a professional is not letting this happen where I just lost all of my confidence. Oh, wow. And, you know, and I'm up there doing it, but it's not, you know, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Believe in it. Right. And the job isn't happening. Yeah. You know what I mean? Well, I was just going to ask you, do you still get nervous before you go on

stage? Cause I, I don't get nervous nervous anymore and i think you should have some nerves i get nervous in the fact where it's it's i'm not afraid to be up there but like i want to make sure i i plant myself there and it used to be by getting the laugh yeah like you know i got that first bit it's gonna get a laugh and now it's really something different like i need to be like i'm this is this will be all right you know like yeah like i i need to have that connection not the laugh but the sort of like are we on this we're gonna be all right here yeah and then go you know so so i'm nervous about that that that won't happen because you feel it man you know you go into a room and you're like no that corner that's gonna be a problem oh yeah yeah or you find that one person yeah yeah like it's not laughing yeah i i tend to find like i i

always end up looking at those people at the moment they're not laughing you know and there's always like if you're playing like a bigger place like yeah 800 people or whatever there's always you're always going to land on people like a sleeping lady oh yeah yeah but like sometimes when you do clubs and you you know they're you know that they're not all necessarily there to see you. They might just be. There's like that table, that area. There's some bad thing happening over there. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, sure. There's always a spot. No matter where you are, you'll find it. Yeah, exactly. Like, oh, I'm going to get that area. And now I make all assumptions.

Like, they hate me. And then there are always the guys that come up to you like, I loved it. And you're like, no, you're not who I thought you were. Why don't you not like me? I can remember only bombing once really badly. And it was a couple of years ago. I worked at that Marine Corps, that Marine base down by between Ocean City, Ocean Side, whatever it is.

I forget, it's Fort something. And it was forines like 19 and under that were single yeah kids yeah and could not connect with them at all kids are hard they were checking their texts you know they're texting and stuff and didn't get it they didn't even know like my history yeah yeah constant fronds or anything nothing nothing a whole new generation i was going through my rolodex who's the old guy yeah and everything was hip hop there was the the main guy was the hip-hop guy at the end headliner yeah and then the mc was an ex-hip-hop guy who i'm seeing now and he's an ex-marine so he knows all the the lingo oh did you know going in you're like i didn't know and then i walked off i was sweating actually i hadn't

sweat in a long time i walked off and i tried to convince the producer. I said, that was good, man. These guys are great. And I just hated myself. I just kind of put a fake smile on like this is the greatest thing in the world. The bomb sweat.

Oh, man. When you feel it coming, you're like, oh, no. It's like bad food poisoning or something. It's terrible. It's happening.

I'm not hiding it. It's coming out of me. It's going to happen, baby. It's going to happen. It's happening now. Ease into it it's coming out it's gonna happen baby it's gonna happen it's happening now ease into it yeah all right thanks man thanks that was great talking to you you too what a great guy what a great conversation i'm so glad that we made that happen finally vancouver portland seattle oakland denver boulder dc philly austin milwaukee madison um minneapolis dig it no music today boomer lives We'll be right back. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats.

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