WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 794 - Louis Theroux

Episode Date: March 15, 2017

Filmmaker Louis Theroux once tried to make a documentary featuring Marc but he never used the footage. Marc's been puzzled by that ever since, but when you look at the subjects of many Louis docs - addicts, criminals, hate mongers, pornographers - Marc might be lucky Louis never made that movie. Marc talks with Louis about evolving as a filmmaker, learning from Michael Moore, and what went into Louis's latest film, My Scientology Movie. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckadelics? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. How's it going? What's going on back east? Man, I got out just under the wire.

Was it as bad as they say? Are you guys all right? Did you dig out? Is everybody out from under the snow? Today I have Louis Thoreau on, on the documentarian and a very funny guy i i enjoy talking to him and i'll explain some more about that interview in a second uh what what what did i want to tell you oh yeah you can come see me next weekend i'll be in oakland on friday i'm going to be in Seattle on Saturday at the Moore. I'm in Oakland on Friday at the Fox and on Sunday I'll be in Vancouver at the Vogue. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all the upcoming dates. Maybe I should give them to you. They're all selling pretty good. I mean, Burlington was pretty amazing. was i able to talk to you about that that was a that was a great show it was freezing in burlington but people still came out i don't

know i think i i think we did about 1100 and a 1200 seater or something like that the woman who i picked to open for me who i i just saw her stuff online annie russell great, and it was a nice long show. I did some new stuff, and it was great to be up in Burlington. I haven't been there in a long time. Had one of the best meals of my life there, and I had no idea what was going to happen. We had very little time. We had about an hour. We went to this place called the Hen of the Wood and had just an amazing meal.

It was like a beautiful like a trout split open the whole fish and there was some watercress on top and some fried onion like onion uh rings of it was like it was just a creative and fucking amazing this is one of the best meals of the trip and then the next morning we went to penny cluse Cafe, had one of the best breakfasts, grilled corn muffins. Look, you know, this may not be relevant to whatever life you're living or whatever condition the world is in, but I'm choosing today to be, you know, relatively chipper. But grilled corn muffins, and I talked about this with Kim Gordon, not dropping names. It just came up, I believe.

I talked about this with Kim Gordon. Not dropping names. It just came up, I believe. East Coast thing. Grilled corn muffins are one of the, an uncelebrated life pleasure if you are geared that way. The grilled corn muffin. I was going to tell you about the other tour dates

because they are happening. Like I said, Oakland, Seattle. The Moore Theater, March 25th. Still a few tickets left for that. I don't know the Vogue, March 26th, the Fox in Oakland, March 24th. But I'll be coming to Austin March 31st at the Paramount Theater. I'll be in Boulder on April 7th at the Boulder Theater. I'll be in Denver at the Paramount Theater in Colorado on April 8th. I'll be doing three shows at the Aladdin Theater in Portland, Oregon. April 21st, Friday, and April 22nd, Saturday, a show was added on Saturday. Pabst Theater in Milwaukee, April 27th. The Orpheum in Madison on April 28th. And

then two shows at the Pantages in Minneapolis, where I'll be shooting a Netflix special on April 29th. And then on the other side of that, I'll be in Philly at the Miriam Theater on May 12th and D.C. at the Warner on May 13th. Given the way things are going, that might be a relatively abandoned city, just a bunch of empty federal government buildings that once housed the the machinery of uh of a of a government who knows i'm sort of obsessed with this lee morgan guy

this uh this this trumpet player and um i can't shake it like i'm Like I'm amassing his records. And then the people that produce the documentary, there's a documentary. It's called, I Called Him Morgan. I came at this guy with knowing nothing, knowing nothing. I bought a record on a recommendation from Dan down at Gimme Gimme. I put the record on expecting some bebop music from a secondary player. I put the record on expecting some bebop music from a secondary player. And it just drilled itself right into my guts and my mind and my heart and my soul. And I was like, who the fuck is this?

Why is this happening? It didn't seem elaborate or show-offy. It was just deep, man. And yeah, so I started getting all these Lee Morgan records. And I guess because I was talking about it, the people that made the movie the documentary mostly about his wife who shot him at a club on a snowy night in new york shot him dead um it became a very fascinating story to me substance substance abuse murder uh being genuinely gifted it just i i recommend it you know when i i just because i like knowing the backstory and it's always amazing to me like why did this guy resonate with me and you know he was uh a deeply addicted and

uh you know sometimes that affords you a type of creative freedom. I'm not suggesting it or I'm not saying that it's a starting place, but there is something about that zone. And then I ran into my optometrist, Dr. Cain, who is a trumpet player, jazz trumpet player from Indianapolis. And, you know, a good trumpet player in his own right but definitely a bebop kind of character i just ran into him on the street and i told him i was getting into lee morgan he's like oh yeah yeah yeah lee morgan yeah man yeah man he said that miles was like this is this kid's got it and he told me the album that he liked and uh boy i i can't i cannot stop listening to lee morgan it's like

it's almost compulsive at this point i gotta i think i gotta have dr kane on the show you know so louis thoreau the documentarian i'll be honest with you as i was honest with him i've met louis Thoreau before. He approached me because he wanted to interview me for something he was working on that didn't sort of like come together. And I spent like hours with him, I think. Hours. So that was really my only knowledge of Louis Thoreau. And I liked him.

I thought he was funny. I enjoyed talking to him. But whatever he was shooting went nowhere. It just went away. And then I think he emailed me not long before he was promoting went nowhere it just went away and then i think uh he emailed me not long before he was promoting this movie he's got out now my scientology movie which i watched uh you know telling me he was sorry that he didn't use that stuff but i remembered him and then i watched the scientology movie and i enjoyed it a great deal it's a good movie but he's been making

documentaries for years and i don't have a deep experience with his canon, with his oeuvre. I don't know if that's the right word to use. But with his work. How's that? Like, I watched a Scientology movie. And I talked to him for another movie that he didn't make. And that was about it. But I enjoyed the Scientology movie.

And I like him as a person. So this is an interview coming from that. And I copped to that and we worked with it. And I just I find him hilarious. And I don't know if he's even trying to be hilarious. But this is my conversation with Louis Thoreau. And we're talking about, among other things, his new documentary, My Scientology Movie. It's now in theaters and on VOD, iTunes, and Amazon Video.

And he approaches it in a unique way. I've seen a couple of Scientology documentaries. But this is me and Mr. Thoreau in the garage. Talk. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode

where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

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Why is it not Thoreau? Because it's O-U-X and it's a French name, so it's like an analogy with a roux sauce. But wait, you have a cousin who's an actor. Justin. Justin Theroux. What's it? Exactly.

Yeah. What's that about? He's getting it wrong, dude. Did you tell him? Yes. And? He didn't listen. Huh. What's that about? He's getting it wrong, dude. Did you tell him? Yes. And? He didn't listen. Huh.

Is he obstinate? I guess he's got his own way of doing things. I think the rot started with his dad. There was a bifurcation in the family tree. My dad stayed true to Thoreau. Uh-huh. And Uncle Gene went Thoreau. Huh. And no reason?

Was it... I think on analogy with Henry David Thoreau, so maybe they thought it sounded... Maybe people just... That came more naturally. Well, what did your uncle do? Was he a writer? He's a lawyer.

But not a writer, not like Henry David Thoreau, which is spelled differently. Different spelling. Your father, the author, went David Thoreau, which is spelled differently. Different spelling. Your father, the author, went with Thoreau. Yeah. And he's okay with it. He likes it. But then you go back another generation and they were saying Theroux.

Theroux. Theroux. Oui, oui, oui. So where'd you grow up? London, England. The whole time? Pretty much. The summers we spent on Cape Cod, because my dad was American, still is,

and he brought us back to the homeland to kind of Americanize us a little bit. He felt we were becoming too stuffy and British. But kept it Thoreau, nonetheless. You would think once you hit the shores, Thoreau would be the way to go. You think Thoreau's more American? Somewhat. There's the way to go. You think Thoreau's more American? Somewhat.

There's the way I would have pronounced it. So by reading it, not knowing French, or just willing to err on the side of American, I would go with Thoreau. I'm just grateful if people don't say Thorax. Yeah, well, that would be a whole other can of worms. So your dad was like a big important author and still is yes he's a successful and well-regarded literary author he's a travel writer short story writer and novelist and what and your mom also in the arts bbc uh she was a BBC producer on the radio. So you grew up in a home full of books and lofty topics.

Kind of. Yeah. Discussions around the table, books, notable political activities. Maybe. Perhaps art. Not so much art. I mean, no, not really art. Not even music that much.

Mainly it was about books. Writing being the kind of acme of what it means to achieve something in life was to be a literary writer. But we watched TV as well. It wasn't all high-minded right but did you did you think about being a writer yeah yeah i'd like to think maybe i am a little bit of a writer i've just written a movie the scientology movie yeah i know it's sort of you know you think it's a documentary and then you realize this guy's got a heavy hand in this there's i mean i like to think, I mean, I get a writing,

that's the credit I get on all my documentaries, you know, Scientology and otherwise. It's written and presented by Louis Theroux. Well, I mean, this is the thing, like, you know, like you came and talked to me about something, you ate up a lot of my day. Yes, I did. Because of some high-minded idea you had that was half baked that went nowhere

and you gave me a book about nazis as if to make up for the the time you ate out of my life did you read the book no i can't now it's we're living in it not as bad it's not that bad the book i think the book was about the extermination camps wasn wasn't it? Right. Are you diminishing it somehow? You took a tone like, no, it's a lighter sort of. No, I just say, like, I don't think they've set up a, you know, not even concentration camps, actual extermination camps, Treblinka, where no one came out alive. Right. No, yeah, you gave me that book and said I should read it. And I wanted to.

I have it. I'm going, you know. Was it that one or was it the hannah arendt i can't even remember i have the hannah arendt one okay which one eichmann in jerusalem yeah i have that one the banality of evil sure yeah yeah i know all about that i know about did you read it the banality of evil or the eichmann in jerusalem the book i did read it i i read as much of it as I could be I didn't find her prose style to be to hold me as much as I would like no I'm sorry that it didn't she's no Len Dayton yeah I

don't know who that is but now I'm gonna read her him who well it's not a page turner but it is a good read no it's an important read and not unlike many important reads i get in about you know 30 pages and i think i got it i got it i get it can i give you the background on on because it doesn't often happen that i make a documentary or start making one and then it kind of fizzles out and i do feel bad for eating up your time and i i enjoy talking to you i feel i feel you feel familiar to me i like you uh i don't know i feel like maybe you know we could have you know have dinner or something in a sociable way i could maybe sit with your friends sure it would not be a stretch no yeah that never happened either but that's all right you emailed me to i think you emailed me when you knew that this was

going to happen you emailed me when you like maybe this was an idea that maybe you should do Mark Maron's show. And then he shot off an email a couple of weeks ago saying, hey, I didn't use that stuff. Well, listen, I'm not going to deny that. But I had enough class not to say in the email, hey, I'm sorry I haven't been in touch about why we never used your interview. But can I be on your podcast? No. I just said I'm sorry. And't been in touch about why we never used your interview, but can I be on your podcast? No. I just said I'm sorry. And then someone else arranged the interview to be on the podcast.

Right, but my question is if we're going to be investigative and if you're going to— But I admire you for seeing through me. I didn't realize I was that transparent. I don't know if you're transparent. I didn't realize I was that transparent I don't know if you're transparent now you're copying to it where moments ago you were attempting to throw someone under the bus

kind of in a way like you were like I had nothing to do with reaching out to you right that was what could have followed there but now you're taking responsibility that somebody said to you you want to do Mark Maron's show because we've had people on there before

and you're like oh you know no no that wasn't how it was then no no i i you know what it was was like i was like man i'm gonna be promoting my movie and yeah uh mark maron i think it was also okay this is gonna do you want the full truth yeah Yeah. Why not? We're doing a documentary. I always wanted to do... You first came on my radar when a friend of mine said... I was looking to a show about comedians, and I was thinking about it's an interesting world, this world of these people who spill their guts on stage. They transmute the angst of their lives into comic gold.

Yeah. And that's a high wire act. Some of us, yeah. And to me, that's the beginning of something interesting. It embodies a kind of tension between, you know, you're turning your wound into your art. Yeah. And that's both can be lucrative, creatively fulfilling,

but potentially dangerous. And you also, you pay a price and the people around you pay a price. So I thought in the loss of intimacy. How do you flesh that out in your head? How is it potentially dangerous from your point of view? Oh, emotionally, I suppose. Destructive to relationships. Oh, right, right.

Yeah, okay, yeah. Exposing of relationships. Okay. So I had it all figured out kind of intellectually. And then I was talking to a friend about it who works in the comedy industry. And he said, you've got to listen to Mark Maron. He does a podcast. He interviews all the comedians. Yeah and he this would be perfect for you and he also gave an amazing keynote speech at aspen right on montreal montreal a few years back yeah talking

about how you know the price that you pay as a comedian slaving away the emotional toll that it takes over the years and and i listened to that and really impressed me and i listened to your podcast i thought this is amazing anyway fast forward like six months a year we had our uh conversation yeah and that didn't uh and then but it was very hard to get other people i think two things happened it was hard to get other people who who were sort of at the level or at the level we needed them to be yeah like I didn't want it to be like young guys trying to make it in comedy. I wanted it to have every... I wanted to have a kind of Jay Leno, Joan Rivers figure, and then...

The unknown guy who's been out there forever. Yeah, but a whole mix. But we ended up... I don't want to embarrass any other comedians by saying who we got, but we got people who it wasn't enough to flesh it out, and so it fizzled out. And I did feel you know our interview the one i did with you i thought was really interesting um but i remember you left and i felt like what's that guy gonna do with that then i think um i secretly after that thought god it'd be nice to be on his podcast though yeah

but you know clearly you didn't really know any of my documentaries. And in fact, I think at one point you had a little dig. And I don't say that, you know, because I enjoy that kind of repartee kind of humor that's close to the bone. You had a little dig. I think what you said was, you know, are you well known in Britain? And I said, I don't know. I guess people see me on TV. And then you said, because in America, no one knows who the fuck you are. I said I don't know I guess people see me on TV and then you said because in America no one knows who the fuck you are

I said that yeah well my manager at the time was British and she loved you yeah and why well well that sounds a little hostile um did I say it in a funny way I didn't feel it was hostile did I get a laugh I don't think i laughed i think some other people in the room laughed when you're screening it and that was the end no no i mean i think you had a friend there maybe called dave and i think he might have laughed dave was here i think it wasn't in here it was backstage at a comedy club in pasadena when you said that oh was that must have been who i was doing it for maybe maybe it was dave anthony i think it must have been dave anthony yeah oh yeah yeah he's a yeah i would have done that joke for him i would have taken that kind of joke a painful shot well i think in the context an insult

well it's jarring and it's something that you don't expect people to say so that qualifies as a joke when you're like holy holy shit, did that just happen? A lot of jokes are like that. It's funny. Yeah. So then you didn't have me on the podcast, but then I think I went on Joe Rogan's podcast. I went on a couple of times

and got a great reaction. And then I thought, well, I'm not doing Marin, but I'm doing Joe Rogan. This is great. And then when I came out to do this, I thought, oh, I'll go back on Joe Rogan. And then I emailed him,

and that didn't seem to go anywhere. I thought, oh, wow, maybe I should try Marin again, but I don't know how to do that. He still thinks I'm making a documentary about him three years later. Well, but now I feel that on some level, you have gotten me back for me saying no one fucking knows you here

by saying that you did Joe's twice, and only after you didn't hear back from him, you thought, well, Marin is still maybe an option. But you didn't say it as a joke. You just reeled it off like it was an okay thing to say that Joe Rogan didn't get back to me. He did get back, but he just said, yeah, man, let's hook it up.

But then I didn't know what the next move was. With Joe? Yeah, like, let's hook it up. I was like, okay. I didn't want to say, like, okay, I'm hooking it up. What did you talk about on Joe's? What were you there twice for? The first time I, you know,

Joe's seen a lot of my documentaries. Oh. I guess that's the difference between me and Joe. Have you've ever done yeah i saw scientology the movie that's the only thing i poked around and looked at some other stuff bits and pieces what's the matter with you what what we can't talk now no you don't think that the scientology thing is your latest film is like an amalgamation a a part of the evolution of you as an artist and as a documentarian and a filmmaker and a human being that I watched your most recent film. And everything should be there. It should all be there.

I get your personality. I get what makes you, you know, an interesting person to watch. I get the style it's probably why i feel familiar to you because you're so good at being a kind of like um like a non-threatening you know kind of like i can talk to this guy spongy guy right spongy guy yeah i yeah okay fair enough what's it when you're witty but you you're very like it's like a lot of times you're witty in the way that what's unsaid, you know, the quiet wit of just letting things unfold, which is a great skill for a documentarian. But I know that you've been doing it a long time, and I wanted to ask you, I have questions. Why does everyone think you've got to see everything to have a conversation?

You know what I've done in my life? I'll tell you what I've done. That's a good point. And I haven't seen many of your things either. No. I mean, you follow me around. But I listen to a lot of the podcasts. Sure.

Sure. Okay. Well, thank you. And I enjoyed your film a lot. Thank you. And I like your work ethic. You seem to do a lot. Thank you.

Yeah. So when you say to me like you had this kernel for an idea like you've done documentaries about nazis yep pedophiliacs porn so the westboro baptist church oh yeah so when you have this idea like with me the the charge was the high wire act of comedians the liability the the risk i saw it as part of a um almost of a piece with a few other docs that i'd done one was about the porn industry and one was about wrestling and then there's another about gangster rap and i and each in their way is about the way people, they're almost theme parks in which people play versions of themselves.

Right. And end up almost approaching their real selves. And the line between the real and the fake is blurred. I mean, in the porn industry, what's always interesting is how, you know, they're in a sense fictional characters, but the physical act, the anatomy is real. And the biggest challenge in porn is for the men is to keep their erections. They have medicine for that. Well, they do now. But I did this in, this was in 96.

Okay. This was pre-Viagra. Uh-huh. Viagra. And so it's that strangeness of having to impersonate something, but also for it to be real. They have to have real sex. And it's not always easy to do in wrestling they're having fake fights in which they get really hurt and in gangster

rap it's about this strange gray area between they're supposed to keep it real right that's the phrase yeah they're supposed to have street cred street credentials they can't pretend to have sold drugs and then rap about selling drugs that's a a big no-no. Right. But it's also supposed to be kind of show business, you know? And I see that in comedy, it seemed to me, you've got this same thing where you're playing a version of yourself, but it impinges on real life. With me, it does. But maybe they're not all the cases. No, I think that there are plenty of comics that do jokes, but usually their disposition is something that evolves out of their real life their point of view perhaps but actually taking your real life out there and working through it comedically is you know not

everybody's cup of tea i mean to different degrees you know i don't know that you know jerry seinfeld is ruining his relationship no in any way no but when when did it start though like you what happened you where'd you go to college uh oxford university well that's a good one right yeah and were you involved in uh were you involved in the comedy troupe no no i i wrote some comedy just for magazines and stuff. Like satire pieces? I was into rap at the time, and I did a kind of gangster rap parody, I remember. I used to do a little cartooning, so I did some comic strips. Just a little side thing.

I was a pretty serious student student so most of my energy was directed into getting a good degree well oxford is like uh that's the big school that would be like the harvard of there and you know you got to be pretty sharp to get in there yeah so you're a good student all the way through i was a good student all the way through i always took my studies i skipped a year at uh school because I was considered to be intelligent. And so they fast-tracked me. But I had a little gang that I was at. Before Oxford, I went to a school called Westminster School.

It's the fee-paying kind of posh London school, which is where a lot of media-type people send their kids there. Like who? I don't know. I'm trying to think. I mean, the names probably wouldn't mean that much to you anyway well i don't maybe okay oh i understand the point so so so my friends there actually the the lasting friendships i formed were with people at westminster and there

were a couple of guys called um joe cornish who became a film director and Adam Buxton who's a comedian. I know that guy. I know that name. Podcaster. Yeah. I turned him on to you and he sort of started his own podcast

in the UK. Did I help him? Did I influence him? I would say so, yeah. He wants to interview you. In the UK? He's coming over here next week.

He didn't reach out. He did. He did? Yeah. On Twitter? Should we be talking about this now? Why not? It's very inside baseball.

Would you stop it if we were in one of your documentaries? I'd be like, we're not using this bit. It's so boring. All right. But here, tell me about Oxford because it's one of those things, like I've only talked to one other person. I can't even remember if he went to Oxford or Cambridge. What's the difference?

It's Harvard and Yale, man. Oh, so it's okay. Same level. So I don't know that I've talked to anybody from Oxford. What were you studying there? History. Oh, so that's a big deal. Well, it's just another subject.

I don't know. I mean, I studied studied english some people study philosophy but history what would what was your focus is that how it works not so much i mean you do it you range pretty widely i did narrow it into the 17th century scientific movement for one semester yeah so if you want to go galileo i'm ready. So that was the thing, huh? Descartes, Robert Boyle. Now, what part of your brain, like if I'm thinking broadly in an intellectual way, you know, what were the lessons? What was the drive?

You said, I'm going to study history. So what did you glean from the arc of humanity from studying history at oxford that that enlightened you well you know if you if you're talking scientific revolution specifically uh you know one of the most eminent uh historians of science was a guy called robert coon and he had the theory of the paradigm shift if you like and the idea he invented that saying that concept okay which concept not a saying if you like saying uh and it's the idea that you know the history of science does not move in a kind of orderly linear progressive fashion it it kind of it there is progress there but it happens in kind of fits yeah starts and people work within a template and the template may last for a hundred years or several hundred years it starts to buckle and then

it buckles under the weight of uh data that can't be assimilated into it right but it is a semi kind of relativistic idea right this idea that you have you know before you have an understanding of something there's a pre-existing interpretive framework. And I think, you know, among other things, that's a helpful concept. I mean, I suppose more generally, it's the idea of the march of folly. You know, I mean, I like to think there's progress. But when you reflect on the level of just sheer idi idiocy nastiness brutality the human element the weirdness of the culture you know yeah the human element and the and the kind of preside

the sort of presiding a wrongheadedness of the human condition yeah the the the the the shaky part yeah of all progress is the human element which hasn't changed much no so the repercussions of all those things the follies the flaws the uh malignant or uh or benign evil of uh people you know and the seven deadlies greed lust but the list uh you know they they have the same implications on culture to some degree uh though the possibilities of everything being destroyed have escalated absolutely and i didn't around that time although it wasn't part of my studies i remember did you ever read a book called the ghost in the machine by arthur kersler and it's it's basically uh it starts as a look at different forms of uh understanding human psyche

starting with behaviorism but he he he begins to talk about human evolution and the way in which the human brain, I don't even know if this is even considered scientifically kind of tenable now, but his idea was that we've kind of accreted different concentric layers of the brain. And the cerebellum is where a lot of our rational thinking is but underneath it inescapably is the engine and the engine is the amygdala which is basically the lizard brain the lizard brain and and it's whatever you do in in life that will somehow be calling the shots yeah and uh and and it's a really odd book because all of this is quite plausible and then you arrive at the last chapter and he says, and the only way out of this is we all have to undergo lobotomies. And he's quite serious.

He has a program for we're all supposed to kind of line up and have our brains fixed. Complete lobotomies or just. Partial. Right. Maybe a little, maybe put a valve in between the lizard brain and the rest of it. Yeah. Some sort of. Just take a little ice cream scoop and scoop a bit out.

Take a little bit of that out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it sounded like a good theory. Even that sounds good, but I think it'd be hard to legislate something like that. But I think they might have done it. I mean, you know, most people,

a lot of people don't get out of their house and they don't talk to other people and they still feel that they're very well connected with everybody now. The great illusion. The illusion will serve. Are we talking about social media? Sure.

We just were talking about reptile brains, and now it's social media. I guess that does connect, though. It's all, it's this. Taps in. It's a kind of the, you know, it's rats who have their brains wired up to electrodes that mean if they jump on

the switch yeah they keep giving themselves orgasms right well yeah and then they just do it until they die well orgasms like i think that can be uh a broad idea like orgasm the hate rush the shame rush the uh the trump rush yeah well those all fit under that umbrella that's a broad umbrella of many of that but you know some people love them uh those people concern me but that's not our our journey here i can segue nicely from that to um dianetics by the way i know but what i'd like to do though because you seem to think that i don't have a handle on your entire career is is after you get out of Oxford, how do you decide what is the motivation? Because documentary, to me, when they're done well, and I think you do do them well, and you do a sort of gonzo documentary where you infuse yourself.

Yes. That you become a person. A participant. documentary where you infuse yourself yes that you become a a person yeah you are a part of it uh in a big way as is michael moore who you worked with correct yes did now had you done work before tv nation not on tv no i i left university i have my dad's american i had a u.s passport i went to um to live in america in 91 when I left and worked in local journalism for a year. Print? Yes, in San Jose. So did you go to graduate school for journalism?

No. No. I just leapt in and learned on the job. I started with an internship. For three months, I worked sort of for free. Who, what, when, where, and why? Yeah. The inverted pyramid.

Is that what it is? That's what they say. Like the important stuff at the top. I mean. Oh, I didn't know that one. Yeah. See? Now look what we learned.

It's, yeah, it's all part of the job. And you were doing local news? Literally. City council reports. Right. And new plan for traffic system in downtown in San Jose. And then. Wow.

Yeah. Have you been in San Jose. And then- Wow. Yeah. Have you been to San Jose? Sure. So that was sort of like, you know, that was the tough times. That was the, you're cutting your teeth. But you know- Why San Jose? I was living in Boston doing odd jobs and I think-

That's a hell of a commute. It is a long way. But I just wanted to get out and away. I wanted, I think I wanted to get away from anything I knew. I wanted to stay in America, but I didn't know where I wanted to go. I was looking for a job.

I applied for a whole, I literally went to the, the Boston library. There was a book called the directory of internships. There was a chapter on, um, newspaper internships. I applied to the

rocky mountain noon news the times picayune the boston phoenix uh uh and a bunch of others and san jose metro and that's where i ended up where were you living in boston i think is it called boylston on boylston street yeah yeah and you Yeah. No, well, my dad's from Boston, so it was local. Okay. So you pack up and you go to not one of the gems of the Bay Area. No.

It has its own kind of middle American charms. Definitely. It's absolutely... It just had a flood there. It's bad. It's the least pretentious city You know It's like an antithesis to San Francisco Definitely

And for me it was a great place It was like an immersion into middle America And you know in all its banality But also the kind of Whatever you want to call it The sprawl The weirdness. It has, you know, on the fringes, it's got hippiedom.

In Santa Cruz, the mountains around it, you've got a little bit of everything. Yeah, but you do definitely have a kind of like mall, kind of American, you know. The malls are bigger than the downtown. Like it's one of those places where the malls have kind of taken over, like rogue organs sucking the life out of the downtown. That's all the country. Yeah. And it's also one of those places that's semi-fictional in the sense of they say they're the 11th largest city in the nation, right?

Yeah. But it's all a fiction created by huge boundaries being drawn around it. Sure. Yeah. You don't go there and go like, look at this amazing city. No. No. being drawn around it. Sure, sure. Yeah, you don't go there and go like, look at this amazing city. No, no. And they're saying,

well, we're bigger than San Francisco. And you think, I don't think so. But I was there for a year and then I went to work on Spy magazine. Oh. And did that for about a year. In New York? In New York, yeah. Towards the end?

Yes, it was the lean years of spy was just every month it would be slightly is that where you you got your edge your tone because it's a little it's a little more comedy uh it was it was where i felt more able to kind of i suppose you know use humor i mean i i guess it was i've always felt you, you know, I've always had, I think, a pretty good sense of humor, sense of the absurdity of life. Yeah, I always want to laugh at you. Good. I think. No, no, I mean, like, you have that disposition.

Yeah. Like, I'm always kind of half waiting for a laugh. I'm glad to hear that. Is that on purpose, though? I don't even know now i don't know but you know i do serious i've done serious stuff i mean i've been on a sort of anyway i also do the i do all the moods and and actually um you know in the movie you you can see that no definitely no no i'm not saying you're a clown but either way i i remember uh spy magazine folded it literally went belly up while i was working there and and i got a lifeline

in the form of friends who uh had been working there and had had known michael moore had worked on his pilot for tv nation and they called they went to work with michael and then they called me and said michael would like to meet you basically the TV nation was being co-funded by the BBC and the BBC had said to Michael it would be great if you could have a kind of a British guy yeah on your show right and and that's where I stepped in and that's where you first started doing you know on-camera reporting yes and now those segments which I do kind of vaguely remember were were produced and they were right they i mean you you had to lay them out yes you had an agenda it wasn't it was

not quite daily show style but it was close it was sort of proto daily show but it had a little it was a little more grounded and so they were um they weren't so much making fun of the form of TV. It was more like mini documentaries, but I was clearly a slightly ludicrous figure as a kind of correspondent on the show. Not so much deliberately. I mean, one of the things I credit Michael with is hiring me and sort of recognizing that I was, you know, my TV

unreadiness was an asset. Like I really was trying to be kind of, to do a good job. And I had one jacket that I bought secondhand, I think in Boston. So I turned up thinking like I'm looking like more or less like a correspondent, but looking back, I looked like a hopeless sort of shambolic figure. That's like a correspondent. But looking back, I looked like a hopeless sort of shambolic figure. And I went out and interviewed Ku Klux Klan's people, millennial religious groups. And something about my geeky, whatever it is, sort of slightly awkward, ill at ease quality that seemed to make it funny.

And my kind of cerebral thing, it is was a was a good contrast with gas you know in arkansas michael lowe you know talking about sure we're the new clan and all this kind of thing right well well that's well that's interesting because like you know not intentionally you you developed an on-screen personality yes that sort of probably stuck with you a bit uh i guess so yeah i often think that i didn't really realize what worked you know like i i used to overthink stuff and think oh it would be funny if i did this and always that was stuff that never worked yeah you know i've written a great joke if i could just if you'll shut up for long enough i can get my zinger off that stuff never worked but somehow if i'd walk into a house and trip over something and that was always pretty funny well there's

that's never not funny or i looked for or the clan guy would go uh now steady on now don't burn me on this and you could see me looking all frightened yeah not deliberately and that was kind of funny well what so was it there where you, because it does seem like you deal with, I don't know, like I don't know the show, the one you did for the BBC. I did a few weird weekends. It was on Bravo over here as well. Yeah. There were about 20 episodes.

But it seems like. It's on Netflix now. You can catch it on Netflix here. Okay. I'll do post research. Watch the wrestling one. Okay. Well, why.

You're not going to watch it no i will i like you i'm just busy i know you i'm just kidding and like you know this came up quick and i did you read sam canones's book i mean that takes about 12 hours to read the book which book the one called um dreamland yeah i did see that would have taken about 12 hours and you haven't got 50 minutes but you watched my movie i'm sorry i don't know why i'm giving you haven't got 50 minutes but you watched my movie i'm sorry i don't know why i'm giving you a hard time no you should you should yeah i deserve it i deserve it because when you care you put the time in well i watch a scientology movie it's just like to catch to catch up that's fair the the canona's book i didn't see that coming and

i didn't book him i booked him after i read it really yeah yeah yeah i didn't like it wasn't i was like where does this guy live? Because, like, I get a lot of books, you know, for, they send them to me. You know, publishing houses. So, like, I just, that one stuck. It sat around. I'm like, I got to look at that because the subject, the opiate epidemic. And then I started reading it and I was like, what the fuck?

You know? And I said that when I watched Scientology movie. Thank you. Yeah. It's kind of your, it's your saying. I was like, what the fuck? And I said that when I watched Scientology movie. Thank you. Yeah. It's kind of your saying. Well, I mean, but the Canona thing is like, this is important that he pulled together all this information, not unlike you did.

But the point there was like, I just read this Altamont book that I got months ago. And again, I get hundreds of books. And some of them I'm like, that one I think is going to be something. And sometimes I'm right. And the book on Altamont I read about a documentary. Give Me Shelter.

Yeah. Great doc. Right, but this is more about the actual concert. How did it happen? Really? Oh, yeah. But yeah, so that was a fluke thing. But when we booked this a few weeks ago, I definitely sat and watched the film, and I'm going to enjoy going back and watching. Netflix is that early on you seem to have developed this fascination for pseudo-religious groups racist groups groups that are sort of ideologically

grounded and serve a purpose to people that may or may not be good mm-hmm is that true yes if you like yeah that's fair enough and you know cuz I you know who I've talked to? John Ronson. Yes, I heard that one. Yeah, I only read one of his books. And I forced myself to. Did you really have to force yourself? No, once I read it, though, because, like, you know, I liked him.

I read the psychopath test. And then I read the other one. I read the one about shame. Is it shaming? So you've been publicly shamed. And them is also very good. Right. Well, I haven't gotten to that one read the other one i read the one about shame yeah is it shaming so you've been publicly shamed and them is also very good right well i haven't gotten to that one or the other one i'd like to read them that's about these people that we're talking about right now alex jones is in it i saw i think i saw a doc with the is did he do a doc did ronson do a doc yes he did yeah i saw that yeah but um but i like john i met his son worked for me for a month or two no kidding yeah

joel did yeah he worked for you kind of yeah he was here and he didn't know what he's gonna be doing and you know he i feel like he worked for me for a little while he's a good kid john's uh super talented he's funny you guys remind me of each other i like you guys he used to say that um he used to say that we were like a conjoined twin and that one of us had to die in order that the other should live. Well, I hope you guys are past that. Yeah, I think we're over that now. So what compelled you then?

I mean, I get the porn, I get the wrestling, I get the rapper. I get, well, pedophilia, that's a whole other place. It's all to do with the human psyche, either things that cause us to self-sabotage, to behave in a way that, you know, the rational part of our brain knows is dangerous and destructive. Although arguably it is rational to attempt to, you know, we're emotional creatures and it is rational to attempt to be the hero of your own life,

to embrace danger to embrace um embarrassment you know all of that it's sort of in a certain way does make sense but i i'm intrigued by decisions that go to the core of who we are you know yeah uh like why would you uh you know utopianism in scientology you have people who've committed for tens of years to living frugally because they believe they're part of a millennia's old millennia old space opera right yeah as written or as discovered by olron hubbard i mean you could say that's wrongheaded and bizarre or you could say that's hugely enriching and admirable. Well, have you ever read The Denial of Death?

No, I have. That's one I struggled with, Ernest Becker. Well, that's the- Have you read that? Yeah, it's one of my favorite books, changed my life. But what you're talking about, that suspension of disbelief in order to feel part of something bigger than you is almost existentially human existentially human uh from day one that this need to define your life i imagine if you read joseph campbell or any sort of you know exploration of primitive religion and then on through the rest of it that what what gives your life purpose

um you know you must feel some part of something bigger than yourself whether it's a a fascist movement or a football team you know there's a a variety of ways to to connect like that but uh but it is a it is you know it seems arguably and and somewhat proven that it is a a human it's almost genetic so you know that addresses exactly what you're saying yeah neurology you know and there are if you strap someone up to a machine and you know there are parts of the brain that religious belief activates and there is i think very little that you can you know we can do about uh that that that dimension you know that anatomical dimension that we that many of us share yeah well it seeks to like i imagine that given that we're these conscious animals

or self-aware animals that, you know, in order not to be, I think that the idea of the denial of death and those type of thinkers is that to not feel terrified constantly or painfully aware of your own mortality, you better lock into something. Absolutely. And, you know, when you're, I mean absolutely and you know when you i mean and and and then there's this tension this pull between the kind of the you know the pull of being connected to your kids let's say but being in the westboro baptist church and your kids leave

and and you want to uh stick with this uh cosmic plan that you're part of which involves picketing the funerals of dead soldiers with offensive anti-gay placards but you also have this pull of like i'm not allowed to see my kid but i want to see my kid and i find that sort of angst um that's sort of what it's all about in a way getting to those places where uh people are involved in the deepest kinds of stress and anxiety struggle struggle in a turmoil in a kind of baffling in a kind of baffling way or sometimes it's just why is it baffling because it defies reason yes because actually so for example if you take addiction right yeah i've done a few that circle around um the city that was addicted to crystal meth more recently i did one called drinking to oblivion

people who just have binges of drinking vodka around the clock until they either kind of start vomiting blood and die or end up in hospital and get rehab but and detox and then go in a cycle of doing it again over the years until. That fascinates you. Well, yes, I suppose it does. Because in a way, you're talking to someone who on the face of it is as rational as you are. Someone who is, appears to be well adjusted, thoughtful, have everything going for them. You know, isn't just a kind of, I don't know, really damaged, isn't just a kind of I don't know

really damage isn't just a sort of derelict in the street we were talking to professional people, people like you or I and then you're saying why it would seem to be so obvious that there's a fork in the road like you go down that road

and it leads to addiction loss of all relationships and death you go down that road and you it leads to addiction loss of all relationships and death you get on the other road you have a nice life and um you can keep your job keep your relationships what so what's stopping you from doing that what do you find out as somebody who quit drinking many years ago i'd like to know what you know somebody who clearly doesn't have that problem gleaned from uh this investigation i think you know it's it's clear that it's not clear is the bottom line because i don't think there is an easy one-size-fits-all explanation for why do you believe that it might be some sort of biological liability that yeah

is genetic and somewhat behavioral you know i i think I mean, I'm not a geneticist or neurologist, but I would think so. I tend to think that genetic explanations, I mean, I don't know if they're fashionable or unfashionable, but I don't have a big problem with the idea that that could be passed on. Much as I think pedophilia, you know, it used to be fashionable to reach for sort of freudian oh it's the upbringing even with in the cases of something like um autism or being on the autistic

spectrum it was said that oh it was the it was the withholding mother you know yeah but then it became clear you know what it's not the parents the parents have done nothing well yeah and that would indicate a paradigm shift yeah there's a paradigm shift and you're working with a different and it's suddenly okay it's not environmental or it's not exclusively and by the same token pedophilia when i was at this uh hospital that treated uh or attempted to rehabilitate um if that's the right term pedophiles after they'd been discharged from prison but were still considered dangerous right they put in a maximum security hospital in Coalinga in central California yeah a few hours drive from here and it was said to me you know the received wisdom is often oh cycle of abuse they were abused as children and now they're passing on the cycle almost as though that appeals to our sense of um you know I don't know

people seem to find that an appealing almost kind of poetically appealing oh it engages uh uh it it justifies empathy yeah and it kind of things like these aren't people who were damaged to begin with but it's part of the viciousness of pedophilia that it creates more pedophiles like victims it's like the victims of pedophilia yeah you know go on to and what'd you learn? It was explained to me that it's at least as valid, if not more valid, to see itally, you know, attempted to be countered, that you can kind of counsel and support positive behaviors, but it isn't going anywhere. Right. It's a compulsion that's…

Just like, you know, you look at a magazine, you or I might, I don't know what, you know, maybe you wouldn't. Right. But, you know, just a physical reaction. So that guy's lobotomy idea, not bad. Yeah. Yeah, because that goes all lobotomy idea, not bad. Yeah. Yeah, because that goes all the way back to the lizard brain. Yeah. I met a guy who was in rehabilitation, and he was so serious about his rehab that he had volunteered to be castrated, right?

Yeah. And which was not particularly recommended as part of the therapy. But I don't even think that helps. Huh. So, well, I think what seems thematic in what you're doing is that, you know, when we talk about the folly of history and the human component that remains forever flawed and dangerous to some degree, but yet some of that some of those flaws

compel people to do great things is that yeah i would imagine that you know when you talk to ku klux klan or you talk to the temetsker the nazi not unlike you just said to me about the alcoholic is that like well this is a guy that you know you could have a cup of coffee with yet he has these horrible compulsions or these you know malignant beliefs that are are almost uh obviously inhumane and and dangerous so what where what is that how do you get from uh those are nice shoes to i want all the Jews dead. Yes. Right? Right. Yeah.

Two lumps in your coffee and then, yeah. Let's kill them all. Trablinca. I mean, I think that's a, that wasn't the funny bit. Two lumps in your coffee and then Trablinca is not funny? You can tell me that that doesn't register as something you said to be witty? Take it for what it is. But, you know, that's basically you've kind of, I guess, boiled down the inner tension, the kind of commonality that exists in everything I do, which isn't necessarily even intrinsic to the subject is about my relationship with the subject which is

uh people who are uh involved in something untoward controversial or borderline you know awful dangerous and then i i get to like them and they slightly like me you know and you have this strange uh feeling of like i don't know what to do with this now. Like, how am I supposed to feel now that I kind of feel sort of a little bit of a rapport with this guy or this person who does something terrible? Well, right. So that is your part in this. Yeah. And that is the risk that you take. And that is part of the genius of getting these people to appear and be the humans they are,

despite the fact that they're awful or troubled or doing something that you would never do or you think is wrong. But you don't necessarily put that in there. You let that speak for itself because that's what the documentary does. yeah pretty much i mean sometimes you have to yeah put your foot down put it in say that i'm not for this i try and have a convo i did a show about um sex offenders who live in in in industrial area of southern la yeah and um it was about kind of sort of staying there over the course of a few months, visiting and getting to know these guys. And it was this weird thing where I started to like them a little bit. And then in some cases, I didn't know quite what they'd done. And in other cases, I did. And the strangeness of it was a tricky one because it feels as though even beyond Nazis, you know, most of which at this point is theoretical in this country. I mean, it's dreadful, but there are no kind of Nazis who are in power and able to implement any part of that vision. Well, until… Well, okay, put a footnote on that.

You know, sex offenders and in particular pedophiles is viewed as the ugliest kind of psychological compulsion. And if you had, you know, there are literally apps that exist. There's one called Offender Locator. Yeah. You know, something where you can track in California, around the US, where everyone, where, you know, is there a sex offender near me right now? Sure. You know, where do they live? offender near me right now? Sure. Where do they live? And let's see a little picture of them.

And so in spending time with those guys, you suddenly think, hang on, this guy seems like maybe he's kind of OK, and maybe we should give him a second chance. And then you find out, oh, he abused his three children. And then it's the strangeness of uh well what okay what do i do with that now i don't hire him as a babysitter that's clear but uh am i able to call him a kind of um friend or or or not really and so i i mentioned that because that was one where there was a great deal of nervousness at the channel at the bbc and it was felt we went after i'd made it and more or less delivered it it kind of went up the channel a bit and they said you know there's a couple of bits where you're shaking hands with some of these guys and and we're not sure that's

gonna um you really want that in there you humanize them too much yeah like you just take out the bit where you shake hands and say hey nice, nice to see you, you know. And on the one hand, you say, God, that's ludicrous. You know, why? Because they're so unclean. And then on the other hand, they're trying to look out for me and not make me appear to be some kind of, I don't know. Yeah. So this is like.

What was your word? Spongy. You don't want me to look that spongy. It's a grand experiment for you to implement personal boundaries. Yeah. Try and sort of say, actually, you know, obviously I can't be your friend. Yeah, we can't hang out after this because you molested all of your children. But, you know, you make a nice cup of tea. And, like, I hope you don't do that anymore.

Yeah, exactly. So the Scientology film, like I've watched one other Scientology documentary and it actually I think involved one of your main guy. Yes, Going Clear. Yeah. What's your main guy's name? Marty Rathbun.

So Marty Rathbun. His real name is Mark Rathbun. Yeah, and you know, so you decided to take this on, Scientology, but you know, I thought that the device was very interesting, the casting device. Thank you. And in fact, it was partly, I wouldn't say lifted, but influenced by a documentary called The Act of Killing. Did you ever see that?

No. Which was made by a director called Joshua Oppenheimer. And it's about mass killings in Indonesia in the late 60s and he gets some of these killers 20 or 30 years on and he under his aegis

they start reenacting in a film within the film some of their the killings that they did I heard about this yeah yeah yeah

it's a fascinating doc I totally recommend it and it becomes a therapeutic process almost. And they're not just depicting how they did what they did, but they start to unpick themselves and begin to have questions about, well, it's implied that they are beginning a process of recovery. Well, that was interesting about your main guy, Marty or Mark, was that once you cast

Escovage, is that? Miscavige. Miscavige, the head of Scientology, and you cast some adepts and people and the room where you're sort of fleshing out these stories about these practices that revolve around the head, the current head of Scientology. And that, you know, from him, by placing him in that situation, which I imagine he didn't expect to be placed in, he was able to be like, help you in the casting, say that's the guy, and then run through these things and go like, that's exactly what happened. And then you kind of start to see his sort of like disposition. Like, cause you're sort of like, well, how this, like you said, like how this guy do these things that he supposedly did. And now he's like constantly followed by the Scientologists who see him as an

enemy and everything else. But by creating this second reality of this movie with these actors, you know, the guy who played Mescavage was great. Like as an actor. Terrific. Like, you know,

I had, yeah, I had a bunch of feelings during it i'm like well well this is a good reel for these people it's a good acting job and and that the the like a quarter or a half of the documentary is how these actors handle this situation yeah and then the then the act then marty you know taking them through these scientology rituals you start to see how they could work because the actors have to sort of commit to them

and how easy it is to go from, you know, performing this piece in this strange situation to seeing how, of course, people would go for this on some level, right? Yeah. And then, but the odd thing that happened while I was watching the documentary with, you know, you trying to get access to that area where-

Yeah, the gold base out near Hemet. Right. And then the other documentary crew. And then the other powerful one was the two older Scientologists who showed up. Was that, like, I got the feeling that, like, wow, they're really on their last legs. Really? Well, yeah, I got the feeling that these tactics that're really on their last legs really well yeah i got the feeling that these tactics that they use to intimidate you know outside of the the reputed lawsuits and whatever

um are really kind of tired like there was something about you know like noticing the lighting on the fence and that how sort of uh dated some of these security practices were and how ridiculous the second documentary crew that wouldn't talk to you, that they actually thought they were engaging in protocol. Yeah, yeah. And because you're who you are and Marty is who he is, and you see that from his distance from the church at this point and what he had gone through with them,

that all of this protocol seems desperate and ineffective. I would agree up to a point. I mean, I think partly they're working with a playbook that dates back 60 years. Yeah. You know, which is,

and everything they do is, has to conform to what L. Ron Hubbard laid out. So it's literally things like, and Marty once told me about this. So Hubbard wrote reams of stuff, not just books, but policy statements about how certain things are done.

So he said the best thing for cleaning windows is vinegar. Now, Windex, right, is probably the best thing or something like it. No, vinegar is good. But because Hubbard said vinegar, they have to use vinegar. It becomes ritualized. And Hubbard said if media come after you, you have to, or if suppressive people come after you, you have to confront and shatter them. You have to investigate them and destroy them utterly or whatever it is.

And so that's, whether you like it or not that's how that's the rules you know that's also like uh uh a a a tactic of maintaining power period right in what way you got to keep the mind fuck going yes and you've got a terrorism you've got a totalizing vision of uh you've got a world in which no middle ground is admitted it's only us and them you know and that to me was the most striking thing about scientology in a way and well there was there were several but that was one of them it's that concept of we have all the answers no one else has any of the answers and uh it's up to us to kind of make sure our answers not just survive but are kind of uh sort of succeed against the others and and and if i learned i mean among other things i learned what was surprising is like the degree to which they hate psychiatrists is astonishing

like they absolutely like they have that's the thing that drives them more. If you're even related to a psychiatrist. They have anti-psychiatry museums. Yes. But beyond that, that was one of the big issues that they had with Tom Cruise's wife, Nicole Kidman, right? Nicole Kidman's father is, as you describe it, a totalitarian vision, really. Like, you know, beyond the religious vision, when you talk about it the way you just talked about it, this was a design for global domination. You know, Hubbard, when he came up with Dianetics, he sent it to the American Medical Board or whoever the relevant authority was. And he said, I've got this great, you know, it's the greatest discovery in mental health. And they said, this is this is absolute pish. You know, we have no interest in being any part of it.

So he felt rejected. And so that was I think that probably laid the groundwork for his hatred of the psychiatric establishment. By their own description, they see psychiatrists and psychologists as usurpers, people who have, under the auspices of doing medical work, attempted to treat spiritual matters. They see that as a usurpation of religion. Well, I think analytical psychology is vulnerable to that. Yeah, I think it's an interesting question the trouble is that if you go to a psycho a scientologist and you know and you're having a psychotic break right uh they will show you the door and say you know what i don't

think we can help you and at that point who do you go and see if you're having a psychotic break within scientology or outside scientology if you go to scientologists if you're having a psychotic break within scientology or outside scientology if you go to scientologists because you're having a psych and say um uh i'd love to join up and they say what's your history well i had an episode and they you know i thought i was a poached egg briefly uh and and that lasted about two weeks and they sent me to a mental hospital but other than that i've been fine they will say get on your bike mate yeah well i found that the arc in the thing about marty who is your centerpiece and you know the you know what he's dealing with and what he's up against being a traitor uh and also the guy who's

revealing them that you i think you did you know build a relationship with him and you did get a sense of of where he sort of buckles who marty does yeah well i think one of the things that works in the film is that is the fact that marty is not a kind of single-minded anti-scientology guy like he both sees parts of it as poisonous and dangerous but he's also kind of defensive of aspects of there's a lot of people like that who are pre-scientologist or no longer Scientologists even William Burroughs you know in his examination of Dianetics found elements that I don't think are uh totally unique except maybe in language that were helpful yeah he saw merit in it and uh and and but with it goes beyond. I mean, he saw aspects of the tech as being therapeutic and helpful.

But he also defends aspects of the kind of Spartan and militaristic world changing culture. You know, the fact that there was a degree of physical or allegedly there was a degree of physical violence at the base. Marty is ambivalent about he sees it kind of um as toxic and dangerous and then sometimes he would say you know what's the big deal you know people slapping each other around a little bit right you know what are people running around trees for hours and on end which many people say see as abusive the running drill whatever it's called he he i remember him saying like why the fuck do you have a problem with that like that's good exercise and actually clears your

head well right clearing your head and brainwashing or it's fine line sometimes interesting phrasing but he he uh and also he didn't he really resisted being part of the you know the the community of anti-scientology notwithstanding that when he got out and kind of blew the whistle on what he'd seen, he was seen as the figurehead of the movement and the last best hope of toppling Miscavige. And was briefly, you know, it was said, kind of supposed to sort of launch, be the Martin Luther of kind of a reformed Scientology. sort of launch be the martin luther of of kind of a reformed scientology he's put all of that behind him and began to see that you know that there was a trap in his view anyway in falling in with anti-scientology that that was just a kind of a monolithic you know enemy of kind of

clear thinking in its own way and then you know since making our documentary he initially thought it was pretty good and then he's denounced us now well yeah well then you know, since making our documentary, he initially thought it was pretty good. And then he's denounced us now. Well, yeah. Well, then, you know, you get into questions about, you know, where does he come from? You know, what, you know, what, you know, because that really didn't come up. I didn't at any point go like, what happened to this guy? You know, which are psychological questions.

psychological questions but um but i thought what was really successful is that you know how like that one drill where you're you know there's just two people sitting across from each other ball baiting they call it yeah well that's almost like meisner it's almost like the meisner method of extra you know what i mean where you i don't know meisner what's that it's an acting exercise where it's just one-on-one and you kind of provoke the other person with questions. Yeah. That there is, you know, you can see how the structure of these ritualized exercises in Scientology break down the ego in order to get to the raw goods of either the lizard brain or the desire to be part of something. You know, like I thought, and it was interesting to see actors in that position because they're so willing yes exactly willing is a good word for it you know they're

pliant and kind of available and when i saw them turn up for our first audition i was really struck both by oh wow you know marty's getting back into this headspace of being inside scientology but also these kind of of actors are arriving like little lambs. You know? Right. As they do in Scientology, I would imagine. Kind of gambling around and saying, like, pet me, stroke me, and let me kind of have

a little ribbon around my neck with a fellow. Well, I mean, Scientology seeks those actors sometimes. Yeah. And you feel like, you know, the process of creating a fringe religious group or indeed a fringe movie is not so very different. And there's a sort of journey between seeing them molded, seeing as through the the bull baiting, the ability to both dish out and withstand abuse. And the acquisition of what's described as a dedicated glare which is what scientologists are supposed to aspire to have this sense of self-possession and an ability to kind of not be uh affected by other people's social and physical cues but to kind of own their own social

space be intimidating you know where necessary um that that then leads to these encounters where the people arrive the scientologists arrive at the airport and begin hurling abuse at marty and you you think well they're just bull baiting marty yeah and then you hear about the hole and how and that feels like a kind of extension of of what they do at the airport there's definitely a kind of linear yeah i thought it was very successful. And, you know, I don't want you to miss your screening. But I enjoyed the movie. I enjoyed talking to you. And I hope that my lack of...

Doing your homework. Didn't... No, I really enjoyed being here, Mark. Thank you for having me. Thanks, Louis. That was good. That was an honest mistake at the end. The Louis Louie thing.

I didn't mean it to be a joke. I'm glad it played as a joke. But I like him a lot. And I believe he knows he's funny. I think he's funny. All right. Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. That's a Squarespace website.

I just threw that in. Yeah, I wasn't contracted to do that. I think I'll play a little guitar if I can figure out how to get everything up and running here. Thank you. Boomer lives! We'll be right back. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an

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