WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 795 - Paul Rust / Dax Shepard

Episode Date: March 19, 2017

Actor and writer Paul Rust knew how to be funny as a kid growing up in Iowa and struggling with OCD. But he tells Marc it was his knack for taking intense, borderline-unspeakable risks on stage when he got to LA that caught the attention of people like Scott Aukerman, Paul Reubens and Judd Apatow, which led to his Netflix show Love. Also, Dax Shepard returns to the garage to talk about CHiPs, the movie he wrote, directed and stars in. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckadelics? What the fuckn what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf how's everybody holding up how you doing i uh i'm yeah i'm all right you know there was a big death week that hit me kind of i don't know if it was if it's hard but certainly it definitely shook some stuff loose or made me reflect uh

chuck berry died at 90 the true king of rock and roll and somebody whose music uh changed the entire trajectory of my life and brain and derrick walcott the poet laureate no Nobel Prize winner, died as well at 87. That's somebody I studied briefly with, poet and playwright, when I was at Boston University. I don't know that I fully appreciated Derek at the time, but looking back and now looking at his poems and having the memories I had, the few memories I had of him are kind of nostalgic and interesting points in my life. But Chuck Berry, I'd like to just talk a second about the two of them. Oh, by the way, we have Paul Rust on the show today, and Dax Shepard stopped by to talk a little bit about his life and his new movie.

Sometimes I do these short interviews with dudes that have been on the show before and he came by he's it was nice to see dax i like dax but chuck berry despite the fact that he's not known to be the most uh moral guy some funky video going around of the old chuck years ago that involved the farting and pee and sex and badness i guess just some dirty shit and he was also i believe busted for uh installing cameras you know in one of his restaurants or something in the ladies' room. So, you know, not a dirty guy. He's a dirty guy. But he is Chuck Berry. And the music from years ago,

obviously I'm too young to have been there at the beginning of it, but I think I picked up in around probably 1972 in my room in the basement i had the beatles second album and they do a cover on there of chuck berry's rollover beethoven and it just i could not it changed everything that beginning that chuck berry you I mean, for some reason that just drilled itself into the channels of my brain. I don't know where those passages, those channels in my brain came from, but they just locked everything together. I was obsessed with that song initially, Roll Over Beethoven. And, you know, I sought out every version of it possible. I found Leslie West and Mountain's version,

and eventually I got to Chuck Berry's version. Through the Beatles and Mountain, I arrived at Chuck Berry. I think my folks had the Live in London sessions, which had his one hit, my ding-a-ling, his one number one hit, which was a travesty, really. But I didn't really figure it out. I played a little guitar i'd done you know very basic versions of johnny be good just three chord open chord versions when i was

11 12 years old but it took till high school when i was a failing bassist in a stage band who couldn't read music that uh some dude with a comb in his back pocket and a perfectly feathered hair named adolf uh latino guy he uh He was the guitar player in the stage band, and he showed me that opening Chuck Berry riff, and I was like, oh, my God, I've got the keys to the world now because I already knew how to play honky-tonk. I knew the three-chord, ba-dum, ba-dum. I knew that.

But that was the riff at the beginning of the Chuck Berry songs was the missing piece, and I felt enlightened, and it stayed with me. So Chuck Berry, rest in peace. I'll tell you, lately when these older guys that have had full lives die, I feel happy for them. I'm like, you got out. You got out, and you got a lot in. Rest in peace, Chuck Berry. So Derek Walcott. Derek Walcott was a great poet.

And I didn't know a lot of his poems, and I've been going over some of them over the last day or two because I wanted to re-engage. But how I knew Derek was he was a professor at Boston University where I went to school. Boston University where I went to school and he had established the Playwrights Theater, which was a small black box theater up on, it was up on Com Ave right near the old paradise. There were some art studios in there and then there was the Playwrights Theater and it was a nice little space, but it was where he taught playwriting and my writing partner and good friend Steve Brill was in the playwriting workshop with derrick and we had we had written a thing together this very broad comedy thing about a an alien who comes to earth and and um he's uh he's basically jesus and it was a it was a bunch of scenes that had a bit

of an arc but i just remember derrick was this very robust car robust Caribbean presence who seemed to just, you know, had a tremendous appetite for life. And I remember when we were performing this thing, he would tell us, you know, to keep pushing it, keep pushing the comedy and keep taking chances, you know, comedically as actors and and in the writing. And he was just a very impressive man, a big presence. just a very impressive man you know big presence and the funny moment that i had with derrick uh was i had gotten it in my mind even though there was no indication of it really that i could get into yale drama school you know just by the virtue of my charm and my cockiness that i could go up there so i set up an audition to go up there and i've told the story about that before but i don't think i've told this piece of it i needed a letter of recommendation and who the fuck was going to recommend me as an actor when i'd done some stage troupe stuff and i took one

acting class years before but derrick had seen me he had seen me and i knew like he lived around the corner in a brownstone and i believe in my memory it was the morning that i went to drive to yale and i just you know i went up to yale and embarrassed myself but the only non-embarrassing thing that i think i delivered that day was that i had gone over to derrick's house or in the morning before i left it must have been like eight in the morning i pounded on his door and he came to the door in a bathrobe. This, you know, this large man. I must have woken him up. I believe he was lighting a cigarette.

I said, I need a recommendation letter for Yale for acting. He's like, all right, come in. So we walk in and he had like one of those old that were they Underwood typewriters. In my memory, it was this antique looking typewriter. And it was sitting on the top of i believe a file cabinet and he rolled a blank piece of paper into this old thing and he stood there in front of this file cabinet standing and smoking a cigarette and typed typed me this one or two paragraph recommendation letter on this old typewriter and he pulled it out and he said good luck i can't talk like him and i was like very appreciative i and i thought that was my ticket into yale

and uh it was not but it was an interesting moment uh i'm sure for both me and derrick and i i respect him indulging me he must have known that it was terrible so rip rest in peace derrick walcott and i i will read a poem by derrick walcott and also a what i think we can call a poem by chuck berry so the i'm going to read a piece by uh derrick walcott called the glory trumpeter i found this the other day and i i like the language of it and it wasn't uh too long And I like reading poetry out loud. The Glory Trumpeter. Old Eddie's face, wrinkled with river lights, looked like a Mississippi man's. The eyes, derisive and avuncular at once, swiveling, fixed me.

They'd seen too many wakes, too many cat house nights. The bony, idle fingers on the valves of his knee cradled horn could tear through georgia on my mind or jesus saves with the same fury of indifference if what propelled such frenzy was despair now as the eyes sealed in the ashen flesh and eddie like a deacon at his prayer rose tilting the bright horn i saw a flash of gulls and pigeons from the dunes of coal near my grandmother's barracks near the wharves i saw the sallow faces of those men who sighed as if they spoke into their graves about the negro in america that was when the sunday comics sprawled out on her floor sent from the states had a particular odor a smell of money mingled with man's sweat. And yet, if Eddie's

features held our fate secure in childhood, I did not know then a Jesus ragtime or gut bucket blues to the bowed heads of the lean, compliant men back from the states in their funereal surge, black, rusty Homburgs and limp waiter's ties with honey accents and lard-colored eyes, whose Joshua's ram's horn wailing for the Jews of patient bitterness or patient siege. Now it was that as Eddie turned his back on our young crowd, out fading, swilling liquor, and blew, eyes closed, one foot up, out to sea, his horn aimed at those cities of the gulf mobile and galveston and sweetly meted the horn of plenty through a bitter cup in lonely exaltation blaming me for all whom race and exile have defeated for my own uncle in america that living there i could never look up

that's a derrick walcott poem i don't know when it was written, but man, the language. And now this. Roll Over Beethoven. This is by Chuck Berry. I'm going to write a little letter. Going to mail it to my local DJ. It's a rock and rhythm record. I want my jockey to play.

Roll over, Beethoven. Got to hear it again today. You know my temperature's rising and the jukebox blows a fuse. My heart's beating rhythm and my soul keeps on singing the blues. Roll over, Beethoven, and tell Tchaikovsky the news. I got the rockin' pneumonia. I need a shot of rhythm and blues. I think I'm rolling arthritis, sitting down by the rhythm review. Roll over, Beethoven, rockin rocking in two by two well if you feel you like it go get your lover then reel and rock it roll it over and move on up just a trifle further and reel and rock it roll it over roll over beethoven rocking in two by two well early

in the morning i'm giving you a warning don't you step on my blue suede shoes. Hey, diddle diddle. I am playing my fiddle. Ain't got nothing to lose. Roll over Beethoven and tell Tchaikovsky the news. You know, she wiggles like a glowworm, dance like a spinning top. She got a crazy partner. Ought to see him reel and rock. Long as she got a dime, the music will never stop. Roll over Beethoven. Roll over, Beethoven. Roll over, Beethoven. Roll over, Beethoven. Roll over, Beethoven. And dig these rhythm and blues. Chuck Berry, Derek Walcott. Rest in peace. I don't think you two, if you can hear me, ever knew you'd be honored in the same space for your poetry, but there you go. Life is funny, as is death, I guess. Dax Shepard, he wrote and directed and stars in the movie Chips, which opens this Friday.

He was also a guest on WTF back on uh episode 533 you can hear that with a subscription to how premium go to how.fm and use the code wtf this is me and dax hanging out for a few it's a night for the whole family be a part of kids night when the toronto rock take on the colorado mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.

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18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. And it's... I've done promo for, you know, shows or, you know, radio stuff for when I'm in town. But, like, you're actually traveling with the movie or you...

Yes. Because usually you get on the... You get put in a booth and it's a radio junket. radio stuff for when i'm in town but like you're actually traveling with the movie or you yes usually you get on the you get put in a booth and it's a radio zoo zoo like morning zoo you're there for two hours with someone in your going like okay it's jack and the fatty yeah and all they're doing is uh is asking you really provocative questions about your wife and you're trying to remember that you won't come across well if you handle it the way you want to. My girlfriend, I don't know what she was doing. I told her I was talking to you. And she goes, yeah, I just read a thing that he and his wife have a good relationship.

Oh, good. That was the final stamp at the end of the article. It just said, we stamped this good. Yeah, I think because we've been, you know, what's crazy is we live in a time where we have a Twitter account, right? And we have Instagram. I am almost off Twitter entirely. I am because of the election. It was ruining my life.

We were getting in real life. I would be recounting an argument I was on on Twitter to my wife. And then she would vaguely take their position and then we were in a real life argument over some stranger that I don't know and I don't care about their name. Yeah. And I was like, this is, I gotta get off this. But the upside

of all of it is it used to be you were really beholden to doing an interview with you know, LA Times and it went through that interviewer's filter, and then they might have seen you be a dick parking, and then that's part of it. We're all subjective.

So what is cool is that actors or musicians, they have a direct line to everybody. So the message you want to send out isn't really being manipulated, and you can reach more people than these outlets can. Currently doing the movie, I've been pitched a few things that I go look up their thing. It's like, well, yeah, I could go spend four hours doing that thing and it's going to reach 85,000 people. Or I could just spend the time to tweet or Instagram and then send the exact message I want to send.

Yeah, you wonder, though. I always wonder how much of it gets into people's feeds. I mean, I don't know what the percentages are. Right, if you have a million followers, how many people really actually read it? Yeah, and how many people are they following? What scrolls by? But sometimes doing press is fun,

if it's a good radio show or a fun TV show. Oh, 100%. There's a ton of it I love. Actually, I'm not opposed to it at all. I enjoy it, especially in a situation like this where I wrote it and directed it. It's not like I'm out there trying to put a good spin on an experience I didn't like. Yeah, right.

Like, oh, this director, who is me, was kind of difficult to work with. Yeah, he was horrible. Well, a lot of times what you want to say is like, I don't know, guys. Script was awesome. I don't know what the fuck happened. But we tried really hard, and it's a hard job. happened but we tried really hard and it's a hard job and you know but so it's fun it's more fun to go out and and talk about something you've been working on for two and a half years it's a long time yeah it really is so when you go out do when like you're like you say you're going to seven

cities you what do you do oh my i wish we had my itinerary in front of us because it's amusing like i will go i will land in a city i will go to a hockey game i will go out I will land in a city. I will go to a hockey game. I will go out on ice and shoot a puck at something. Really? Yeah, literally. Some kind of sport stunt thing, right? And then I'll go to a basketball game, and I'll shoot a half-court shot. And then I'll throw out the first pitch at a baseball.

I realize it hasn't started yet, but normally I go throw out a first pitch. And then I'll do a bunch of local press, local TV, local radio. local radio when you do this stuff it's like coming out onto the court now dax shepard his new movie from chips yeah exactly yeah yeah and you're right there's 70 000 people in the stand and like 200 really connected the dots that you're there about a movie but how why the sporting angle i just think because it's televised and interesting I've never heard that but you're not known to be like a sports prankster or whatever like you know that's Dax Shepard doing funny things with balls no no no no yeah I have no athletic background um I am known for automotive stuff so right that's right I will go to a motocross yeah I'll go to a motor I'll go to motocross races and there they'll actually know why i'm there oh yeah yeah but then so that happens and then in the evening in each city there'll be a screening and then i'll do a q a

afterwards which is my favorite part of the whole experience get to riff a little oh my god it's so fun it's like getting to do stand up for a thousand people right um with no pressure and how's questions how's the movie going over um wonderful yeah truly yeah yeah you know obviously when you do a studio movie you test a ton ton, and we tested really, really high, and it's been a really crazy, blessed thing. Getting the big laughs. Uh-huh, yeah. I think I asked you to do my TV show, and you were working on this.

I was, that's right. I've had to turn down a lot of really neat stuff, unfortunately, to do this, but I'm happy. All right, well, let's talk about this. When I talk to people who make movies, don't have the the follow-through i'm sort of like you know i have a two or three day window to stay focused uh-huh and you know with my own uh ideas and projects you know if i'm doing someone else's and there's a schedule and i have to be somewhere right i can handle that yeah but like when i talk to people who do movies, there's the amount of time it takes to attach somebody, to get the money, and then to get made.

And then some people are in these things for six years, and then maybe it'll do well, maybe it won't. Yeah, odds are it won't. Yeah, it sounds very unsatisfying to me. But you wrote and directed Chips, so why Chips? Well, quite simply, i like cars and motorcycles so i'm always trying to figure out a way to direct a comedy that has car chases or motorcycle oh and this property lends itself perfectly to motorcycle this property right so it is it's a property okay right because it was a tv show it was a yeah we grew up with

erica strada 82 erica strada and the other guy that's right exactly that other gentleman uh the white tall goofy poor guy uh but you look i'm i'm a realist so if i had walked into warner brothers and said hey i want to direct a two-handed comedy with me and michael pena and it's called bonkers they would have said no fucking way you're not a star he's not a star right uh original comedies are hard to open it would i just would have never made a movie at a studio so i have to uh be realistic about what they would make so in their mind the brand's the star right so chips is a worldwide property it's still on in some places it's still on here it's still on in germany yeah

it's in in the latin world eric estrada was the first huge Latino star. So it's a beloved property there. So that kind of safety nets them and allows someone like me who isn't a big movie star or a really known director to do something like that. So I would have done Starsky and Hutch. I would have done The Fall Guy. I would have done anything with a car that had a car star. Yeah. I would have tried to do. Yeah. what about um did they ever do a movie yeah sure they must have i can't remember what was the one that was down south oh duke's hazard yeah yeah in fact i desperately want to remake it yet again really yeah because they did they remade it about 10 years ago and i feel like i want to do a different and stiller was in starsky and hutch i

grew up watching those when i was a kid i'm 53 53. I remember watching Starsky and Hutch. I wasn't a Chips guy, really. But what studio did you do it at? Warner? Warner Brothers. Was it their property? Yes. And they had had many different versions of this movie throughout the last 20 years. They've been trying to do it? They've had an interest in making it, yeah, into a

movie. I think like 10 years ago Wilmer Valderrama was going to be Pon punch and it was kind of a it was more starsky and hutch version like a satire or you know a spoof but you're incorporating the the great sort of like high-tech furious pace of the uh the cinematic cinematic ability to do amazing chases and motorcycles yeah flying through the air that's right because there is there's a lot of car chase movies there's very very, very few motorcycle chase movies. Up until recently, the kind of technology to film them didn't exist.

Yeah. And so it wasn't really easy to capture that experience. Because they're so narrow and nimble, you can't be following it in a pickup truck. So did you have to devise a way? Yes, we devised. I almost said devosed. Devised many ways. One is like we had drones, right?

So you can now fly behind a guy on a motorcycle. Cheaply. Yeah. Drones are like, you know, before it was sort of. Well, yes. In theory, when I saw what the bid was for that stuff, it's only, it's about 70% as expensive as running a helicopter for the day. We did a shot on my TV show with one of those weird little kind of Best Buy drones. Yes.

And it was great. Yes. And unfortunately, the studios have all adopted this policy where they'll only use three different drone companies that have been FAA approved. Right, right. Because when you're on your show, you probably had a GoPro on it or something small.

But we put a huge red on it. So you're talking about 55 pounds falling out of the sky around crew. About what, $100,000? Yeah, so they're pretty, they really vet these vendors that do that. So it's expensive. So how does it, what's the problem? But we're mounting on motorcycles, you know. We also invented this, I didn't invent it, but my camera guy invented this thing that

self-stabilized, so it'd be mounted on the front of the motorcycle looking back at me and as i'm leaning it's it's keeping the horizon it's on this huge gyroscope yeah ring gear yeah it just rotates right which that didn't exist you know yeah sure months before i made the movie so yeah there's a lot of cool technology now that how does it like walk me through the process of like you, you know, I mean, studios don't part with this type of money easily. No. And, you know, so you decide you want to do chips. So what happens?

Your agent gets you a meeting and you walk in there and you're like. Not even my agent, my friend who's a producer who I've done almost everything with, who had a relationship with the then president of warner brothers i said hey i've got like this take on chips yeah he goes great let's let's go sit down with them and as luck would have it and i tell you this is as much why i'm sitting here as anything else yeah the day i pitched them the academy award nominations had come out yeah so that president had had just heard like 14 of their movies were nominated right he couldn't have been in a better mood right and so we sit down and all i really have is um hey i think there's like a lethal weapon version of chips like a cool version yeah not a not a spoofy version and he goes oh i love that uh he goes and you i'm only there for a writing job by the way i don't

and then i'm gonna beg them to let me direct it. And I said, yeah, you know, I'll write it. And then I'd love to throw my hat in the ring to direct it. And he goes, yeah, and then you'll play John, right? And I go, well, no. I assume you'll want to get like Channing Tatum or a movie star to play John. No, you're John. This is great.

And I left. I went there for a writing job. And I left with like acting, acting and directing. That's a good day. But again, it's only because of that nomination. Timing. Yeah. If I had come the weekend after one of their movies failed, he'd be like, you're fucking

crazy. Right. You've never directed a single movie. You're not a movie star. Yeah. You're not funny. You're not even funny. Yeah.

I don't even like you. So. So I went in there and I pitched that version and then I, yeah. And then I wrote a draft that took three months. And then I wrote another draft because initially he said, okay, how much do you want to make this for? And at that time it was going to be PG-13. And I said, well, kind of to deliver in that world of PG-13 action, I would need probably $45 million. He said, great. Then as we got closer and farther away from those nominations,

he's like, we can't give you $45 million. So then I had to change the script again to make the stunts smaller, then again and then again. And then at a certain point, I said, they told me then, finally, you can have $25 million. And I said, well, then I got to go R because I need stuff. I need blood. I need stuff that you can't have in PG-13.

They said, great. But anyways, that entire process. If I can't have more fun stunts, we're going to need violence and blood. Well, and adult content. Right. For $25 million, you can still have an amazing time in a movie if it's got provocative, risky, new shit. So the basic pitch, though, that made it different than a lot of sequels is it seems like it's devoid of of camp right so yeah there's zero camp we we you updated it for better

or worse we take it very seriously right you know and then in the back well i wanted michael pena who's an amazing actor i love that guy yeah comedian he's like you know a really solid actor because i felt like he was a comedian no he's not that's what i'm saying but he's funny though he can be funny he's really really funny yeah timing yep and um my whole thing was the the 80s show by today's standards very cheesy so i need everything i can do to move the needle away from cheese so michael pena was a conscious decision to do that and it takes place now correct yeah it's present day oh thank god that would have cost you another 15 million to date it not to mention all your focus on when you're shooting those things is like well how does prius get in the shot whose prius is that and when you do it when you do a period 70 yeah 77

uh but then i you know i also hired vincent d'onofrio which great actor obviously what does he play takes you the bad guy oh he's the bad guy? Yeah, and he's a fucking beast. Yeah? Oh, he's such a beast, yeah. But when you do stunts with like, those bikes are huge. Yeah, well, they start the movie on the big cop bikes, the BMWs, and those things weigh like 800 pounds. Yeah, you can't fly too easily with those, huh? You cannot fly.

So they switch bikes mid-movie because the bad guys have far superior bikes. Oh, really? So there's a choice made? You're going to laugh at this because you're not a gearhead, but the entire movie, I started working backwards from the fact that I wanted a certain motorcycle in the movie. I wanted this Ducati Hypermotard that can jump and go 140 and do everything. I have one. Yes.

And so I was like, well, how on earth are CHP going to drive Ducatis? They just never would. Yeah. And then I was like, well, if one of the cops was an FBI agent undercover, well, the fucking FBI can get anything they want. So then I, I mean, honestly, my, the entire story was just backstopping from the fact that I wanted Ducatis in the movie. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. It created the whole world. Yeah. Was Ducati happy about that? Thrilled. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're kind of, they're a tiny company it's italian it's italian yeah i went to the factory

in bologna uh-huh and i was expecting because they're a very legendary brand i was expecting to walk into like hughes aircraft and it's slightly bigger than this garage we're in right now i was like jesus christ you make all the ducatis in here yes just barely one bike at a time yeah yeah it's a pretty small operation it's really cool so who's the who's the straight guy and who's the goofball it flips a little bit but i'm mostly the goofball um basically um my character is kind of an emotional genius you know he's clearly someone like you and I. He thinks way too much about why he does the things he does. And then Ponch, who's an FBI agent undercover, he's a logical genius.

So these two fight nonstop, but they're both making really valid points. It's kind of like watching a husband and wife argue. Now, did you know he was an FBI guy at the beginning? Does my character? Yeah. No. Okay.

No. I'm a rookie. So I was an x games dude i've had 50 surgeries i'm right i'm a opiate addict really yeah and uh active active oh wow yeah yeah you're kind of a rough character uh-huh uh-huh yeah and um so i i lose all my sponsors i don't know what the hell to do and the only thing I know how to do is ride a motorcycle. So you become a cop. So I'm like, fuck, I could be one of those CHP guys. They ride motorcycles.

I can do that. And you get into that backstory at the beginning? Yep. I'm an opiate addict and Punch is a... You know, on the show, Punch was like a ladies' man. Right. But we both know that's bullshit. So in this, Punch is a hardcore sex addict.

He has a real problem. Oh, really? Porn and everything? Yeah, he's on his phone nonstop, texting with girls sending pictures hopping in the bathroom to jerk off really oh he has a legit issue are you telling me this is the truth this is the truth yeah these are flawed guys dark characters oh yeah yeah yeah yeah well that's exciting but again i i you know me and i know you yeah these are the only things that interest me are like people who are fucking paddling something like sure yeah they might have a real job but 16 hours a day they're fucking wrestling whatever

this ism is no just saying no to something your brain's doing yeah yeah you only love he only likes being an fbi agent because it's probably the only two hours a day he's not thinking about getting some ass or the shame of having gotten some ass or it sounds good man and i'm excited for you and congratulations thank you and i'm excited for you and congratulations thank you and i'm glad we talked now i want to watch the movie because these are broken flawed guys no you're gonna like it running around on motorcycles yeah truly so now you sold me on it okay good i say together they make one decent person with a lot of applause yeah peña has the best tagline he came up with last week where he said, he's tall, I'm dark, together we're handsome.

Oh, you can put that on the poster. Yeah, it was too late. They already made him. God damn it. It was a little late in the game. All right. It's a pretty good tagline, though. Yeah, it is good.

What's the tagline on the poster? Chip happens. It's fine. Yeah, it's fine. Exactly. That's what you're shooting for, to be honest. Because 90% of this shit's embarrassing, know yeah I mean yeah well so it opens March 23rd 4th yeah all across the country oh yeah and across the world wow is that how it works now it is yeah boom yeah

it's nuts so like it like what's great about that is there are a lot of movies now that tank here in the U.S. Yeah. That crush overseas and they get sequels out of them. Right. So in the way the market works, I guess now, is that you'll pretty much, you know, if everything goes well, you make your money back over a weekend. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Because we had a very modest budget. Well, good. You can imagine what kind of head games, yeah, that go on for me because I will know March 25th what the next 10 years of my life looks like, which is a very precarious situation. What does that mean, though? So, like, the hope is you get to direct more. Right.

Well, let's say this. Let's say Chips opens huge to $30 million. Right. I know that I'll be directing two more of those. And those are each going to take two years. And then I'll they'll probably let me do another one so it's like I kind of know what'll happen right but you know I'm not in the results business I'm in the show up and work business so sure it's a very

tricky yeah and if it doesn't make the money back and I'm like I'm not where's the audition yeah yeah yeah no what show wait Culver City I thought this said i'm in toluca lake right now why can't i just go to burbank yeah the stakes couldn't be higher i mean but not really because my fallback plan is i go back to tv which i love so yeah so you're right i don't want to whine i don't i don't want to whine no whining life's fantastic rolling the dice but you know when you for folks like us when you have a date looming like that where you you at least think it's going to decide the next 10 years of your life yeah it's just a very dread yeah and dread and sort of like i need to feel better yeah yeah but i've been i've been

taking action to actually break my my go-to is pessimism yeah and and and i i i think i do that to avoid ever being embarrassed like i'll be the first to tell you mark maron yeah movie's gonna tank that way when it tanks and you see me you won't feel bad right right you can't i already said it yeah yeah yeah yeah and i think i do a lot of stuff just to avoid ever feeling embarrassed at some point but i'm stopping that this time i'm here to tell you it's gonna be a fucking mega hit. And if you see me, I'll be embarrassed. Big deal. I gotta stop going through life. Then you just shift it to, like, wasn't my fault, man.

You know, like, a lot of whatever. Yeah, yeah. Because, like, I was strapped. It was the writer. No, shit, that's me. No, blame the studio. Yeah. No, they're kind of crushing. Oh, good. Yeah. I won't be able to blame them. So, it's all on you, buddy. It really is. The lovely Dax Shepard.

I like that guy. Now, Paul Rust, I'll just be honest, which is, I didn't know anything about him. I knew, you know, what he looked like and stuff. And then, you know, I got the opportunity to talk to him. And I'm wondering, like, well, how's that going to go? And I watched, like, four episodes from the first season of Love. You him, and I'm wondering, well, how's that going to go? And I watched like four episodes from the first season of Love, and I liked it, and I liked him, and I thought, okay, let's give it a shot, and we had a great conversation. Midwestern guy, Iowa.

He's one of those guys where he had the goods, and he found himself in the right situations, and shit worked out. That's not a bad story. The new season of his show Love is now streaming on Netflix. All episodes from season one are there as well. This is me and Paul Rust. You seem too young. Look at me already condescending.

To be referencing Mad Magazine. I mean, come on well you know i'm almost too young but i i mean it meant something to me i yeah i think it's like uh if you have an exposure to it when you're like uh nine or ten it's always gonna it's weird i don't know if did you have the experience that you were aware that like maybe it was past the wave that was great when you were reading it. I remember reading Mad when my family lived in Alaska. So 1971, 70. So my first exposures of it, I was like six or seven, which was too young. And that was the late 60s, 1970, 71.

So it was pretty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It had some bite to it. But I remember there was a back cover of uh i don't remember if it was the fold out you know the fold in sure yeah or not yeah i think it was the fold in but it was it was like a hippie crucified on a hypodermic needle stuck into a pile of pills but i remember that and i remember there were some things, I used to love Al Jaffe, all his stuff. What was your exposure to it?

Now I'm dying to Google that foldout. Yeah. Like if I'm hallucinating it, or is it real? Well, the thing that I remember with Mad Magazine was the stuff you saw was sort of like, could blow your mind or maybe be a little dirty. Yeah. And being afraid if I read a word that I didn't understand, going and asking my parents what

it meant because I could have been revealed that I had been. Yeah. That's how I found out what a diaphragm was. Really? There was a diaphragm joke in a bad magazine and I asked what that meant and then I got the real story. And you did? Yeah.

You learned? It provoked the conversation? A semi-one, sort of guarded and repressed. Yeah, I mean, I learned a lot about sex from underground comics. My parents were not very filtering, so I'd get hold of them. Yeah. Our crumb things, this or that, the bookstore. But I think it's a lot of where I saw actual sex was in comic books.

Just illustrations of it. Yeah. Or if your parents were progressive or filthy people like my parents, there was a joy of sex in the house, which you'd go find, and you'd be like, oh, man, this is crazy. Open the door there. Well, it showed you how it works. Well, I remember seeing my first Playboy magazine.

I was actually thinking this on the drive over here about what a repressed little boy I was that when I saw my first Playboy, I ran home and confessed to my mother that I had just looked at it. Really? The guilt was so strong. Really?

In my heart and in my mind. Really? Yeah, yeah. How old were you? I was 16. No, I was probably like seven, eight. And you thought you had done something horrible. Yeah.

Like I had witnessed something that I shouldn't and I had to make like a confession, basically. Right, a full body experience. Yeah. Body and mind, spirit. mind spirit connected just polluted yeah then going to the source were you but you why was that did you have a religious upbringing i was uh raised catholic so i think there was some sort of uh that was planted in there don't look at the dirty pictures yeah yeah or your has grown up up don't even look at your own body right yeah that shameful vessel yeah what a horrible flawed craft it is nothing but trouble yeah inside and out yeah well yeah and then there was hair then so you know you saw grown-up boobs and vagina oh right yeah

right yeah but it's it's like the uh when were you born? 1981. Well, things were definitely different than when I was a kid, you know? Yeah. Like, in 81, it was already pretty airbrushed and glossy and tempered. You know what I mean? Both pornography and the culture at large. Sure, everything, yeah. At large. When I was like six, it was still dirty hippie time.

Well, I... A lot of hair and sweat and... I envy it. Bad grooming. I think about how it would have been great to live in a more permissive decade. Really? Well, I mean, I was 10 when Magic Johnson was HIV positive, and that's sort of where I logged on.

I see. You grew up with the fear, the weight, the cloud of AIDS hanging over your little heterosexual brain as a horrendous extension of the guilt that was already in place. Yeah, I remember the Clarence Thomas hearings were happening at the time. Sure, pubic hair on the soda. Yes, and hearing about sexual harassment and in fourth grade going like, wait a minute,

have I sexually harassed somebody? Am I not going to get to be president at some point? It won't stop anyone now. That's right. That's not an get to be president at some point? It won't stop anyone now. That's right. That's not an obstacle to becoming president at all. Oh, quite the opposite. Yeah, yeah. It's actually an endorsement.

Exactly. It's a positive point. So where'd you grow up? I grew up in Iowa, northwest Iowa, this town called Lamars. Really? Yeah, yeah. I'm not saying that because I didn't think anyone grew up there, but I've talked to a few people from Iowa.

I think- Higgins boys and- I've never interviewed any Higgins boys or Grubers. Toby Huss, though. Oh, yeah. He was part of that crew. I love Toby Huss. Yeah, I think he's Iowan.

Yes, I went to the University of Iowa, and he did as well. And going into college, Toby Huss was the name that was echoing through the halls because he uh I knew him through Pete and Pete watching him as the strongest man in the world uh-huh and then uh I've gotten to bump into him now and it's nice to see a Hawkeye sure yeah yeah he's a real uh man's man that guy he's he He makes more sense coming from Iowa than I do. I think if you met Toby Huss, you'd be like, oh, salt of the earth guy. Well, he definitely wears it. You think he's a guy that belongs in a truck.

You know what I mean? I mean, it's always like a thing you have to be careful about is how hard you play the working class Iowa card. Uh-huh. You know, like I'm very tempted always to like be like, I did grow up, you know, with pickup trucks and dogs and shotguns. And my wife, Leslie Arfitt, she's always teasing me. She's like, when I meet somebody within the first like minute and a half, I'm mentioning that I'm from Iowa.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had restraint here though, Mark. Don't you think? I had some restraint here. You asked me. I didn't sit down.

Well, I like that's a way how you sort of qualify yourself. If you're being judged as too much of a dork, you're going to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I got farms in my past. I've been in trucks. I've touched animals. That's the trap that I'm always in, Mark Barrett, is my outside doesn't really match my inside.

People will reference Dungeons & Dragons to me, and I never played it. Really? So I've lost, or comic books, I didn't grow up, I read mad. Well, I mean, are you, but, I mean, isn't there another way that you've tried? You could be up and down, like, are you sure? Is there another way you could maybe, I mean, isn't there another way that you've tried? You could be up and down. Are you sure? Is there another way you could maybe, I mean, how many different manifestations of self-presentation

did you go through to land on these glasses? That's true. Like, I have to assume there may have been maybe a little more gothy period or something. Grungy, grungy. Oh, okay. So you did that. A little bit of flannel maybe no glasses well it's great though because in iowa the uh i think grunge was probably hitting nationally

what would you say mark 92 93 that sounds maybe right but if you check our like high school yearbooks 99 yeah yeah exactly that's like when it finally touched it reached takes a while to get up there you know but but there. But that's not unusual, sort of like pre-massive internet speed. Sure. That punk rock and a lot of things, they didn't get to places unless, I've talked to a lot of dudes who are like,

we had to wait for some guy to bring the records. Right, yeah. You know, someone had to mail shit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe there's a cool record store within 100 miles of your town right that's right the one place that's got the goods

that was Omaha I guess where I grew up but Omaha now I've been to Omaha I know I have friends in Omaha so how far was that from where you grew up still two hours two hours away

two hours to a record store what the hell were your family doing where you were up. Still two hours, two hours away. Two hours to a record store? Yeah. Well, what the hell were your family doing out where you were? Were they doing what? Farm stuff? No, no. I almost asked that, but I didn't want to be judgmental and stereotyping.

I mean, I definitely, I didn't grow up on a farm, but I had friends did, and it was the age that cable didn't even reach their homes. You would go out to their house, and you'd be like, oh, we can't watch MTV because Ryan lives on a farm. But no, my mom was a teacher and my dad owned a small business called Russ Western Shed and it was like sold cowboy boots and Western material. It was right there. Yeah, yeah.

It was right there for you to engage with and become. And you ran the other way, Paul. It was right there for you to engage with and become. And you ran the other way, Paul. It was this tantalizing object that I could have. You had Tony Llamas. You had a full range of. That's right. Some Justins. Justins.

Yeah. You had the pearly buttons. Right there. The snaps. Yeah. Yeah. And you turned your back. Well, and especially, you know, my dad, his father was a owned a western apparel store

like they were they're also repair shoe repairmen so it was like shoe repair and then also selling boots your dad fixed boots yeah yeah he could do that yeah and uh he always like was like come down to the store sometime and i'll i just i know you might not want to do it as a career but just so you learn the trade and uh i have such respect for shoe repairmen. And you what? You were like, no? I said no, and I'm sure my father is still alive, but I'm sure this will haunt me for the rest of my life that my dad offered. Hey, come down for a few days, and I'll teach you the thing that I've done my whole life.

You're just lucky it worked out for you. Yes, so to speak. I mean, you know, look at the career trajectory you chose is working out because he would have been like, I told you. I still got the tools. Come here. There's some souls here. Yeah, give me those pliers.

We're going to rip the soul off of this thing. But you said you were saying you have respect for. I love shoe repair places. I talked about it on the show not long ago. So you said, you were saying you have respect for... I love shoe repair places. I talked about it on the show not long ago. So you turned your back on cowboy boots and shoe repair.

Yeah. You have brothers and sisters? I have two older sisters. So no one took up the shoe repair? No. And then, well, he had two other brothers

who also owned other West Western sheds across Iowa. They each owned one in different towns. And no, there was no other generation. So were you some freakish thing that your parents were like, where did this come from?

I mean, I don't think it was a usual thing to want to move out to Hollywood. Yeah. But, you know, my dad was like a funny goofball, and my mom has a dry wit. Yeah. So certainly it wasn't like, the idea of comedy wasn't completely alien.

Are you the youngest? Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. I was going to ask you before I told you what siblings I had, I was going to like, just take a guess,

because I feel like you're a good read on people. I'm not good at that. After hundreds of these interviews, I think you could just like sit back and go. I was like being able to guess somebody's weight. Yeah. So you're like, oh, yes, two older sisters, the youngest. You were infantilized. Yeah.

You were infantilized by all of them. So you're blaming your sisters now. Yeah. You're blaming your sisters now for your lack of boots and trucks. That's right. That's right. It all leads back to that. No, I definitely like my experience was a lot of times being like in a living room with

my two sisters and them going like, go up and get us some, like get us a Coke. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. I like that. You're that guy. I like that structure. Sure. Get the us a Coke. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. I like that. You're that guy. I like that structure. Sure. Get the girls a Coke.

Yeah. Why aren't you getting the girls a Coke? But I actually, I love my sisters. And I've thought before, oh, having older sisters is like a, it's a nice setup. It's sort of a gift if you take it the right way. I think you do learn about women. Yeah. Before I lost my virginity, I went and asked my sister, not for tips or whatever, but I was just like, hey, I'm going through this emotionally.

I don't know if I should or shouldn't. Can you help me out with this? And then she talked. And what did she say, the Catholic sister? She was cool. I mean, she got me into Nirvana and stuff. Oh, good. So she was trouble.

She was a rebel. Yeah, yeah. They both were rebels. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. Good, good. So she said, do it, dude.

So when was this? Like, just when you shot the show last year? It was a love scene. Give me some tips yeah uh though she uh i remember she was very thoughtful and she was like uh as long as you think you could do it in the next day you wouldn't feel bad or regretful you should go ahead and do it and be safe you know yeah one of those things right but uh and how'd it go oh boy mark yeah, Mark. Yeah. Well, you know. Quick? Yes.

I thought you meant you want the story to be quick. No. You're like, quick? Take all the time you want. No, I was just about to say it was the opposite quick, but not in a stud way. Right. In a, I'm on the medication that the Columbine killers were on. Did you open with that line?

Did you say that? Was that what you said right before you? Sit back, relax. I'm on Luvox. You were on medicine? In high school, I was on, that was a weird way of saying it, but I remember I was on this medication that when they did the autopsies on the two Columbine boys, they were like, oh, these kids must've been on something. They must've been hopped up on PCP. What was Luvox? It was like a anti-OCD sort of medication. Oh, really? Yeah, and it just made me super sleepy. The whole time, I was just zonked out through high school. Oh, you were desensitized? Yeah. I mean, I think it was anti-anxiety, some kind of thing. So it just turned off the switch that would make you whatever. Do you have OCD for reals? You know, when I got on that,

it sort of did what i guess what it's supposed to do which is kind of cleared the space in my mind to be say hey i don't have to do this oh really it doesn't i don't give a shit so that when i eventually got off it uh it had done what it worked yeah it's given you that i like when that happens prozac does that too turns the noise down a bit yeah so you can actually can actually- So you can make decisions. I saw it. I remember thinking of it as like, oh, it's like a spring day when you can open the door and take stuff out of your house and put it on the yard. It's not snowy out.

Right. So you can sort of just- Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, how did your OCD manifest itself? Lists, sort of like making lists, but then going so deep into it that I would have to use a ruler to make a perfect box next to the list of things that I'm going to check off

and then using a ruler to check off the box perfectly. And this was like every day? Yeah, up until high school when I was finally like, oh, this sucks. This is awful. I'm a slave to these boxes. Well, it's like anything. When you first do it, it's so pleasurable.

Like there's something there, it's scratching anything. When you first do it, it's so pleasurable. Like there's something there, it's scratching some itch, and you're into it. Yeah. And then it turns into a prison of it, you know, of some kind. Like you'd wake up

and be like, oh, fuck. Yeah, you're like, oh, I have to, well, and it was also like, I mean, this is where it tidily dovetails into the Catholic thing.

I'm not the, I'm like the 5,000th person on the show. Yeah. I'm sure who's made this acknowledgement. But like the same wire that's sort of crossed upstairs with ocd is is the ritual of uh catholicism is actually really tantalizing because it's it's it's the same sort of thing you're like oh i go in i'm gonna do this and this and this yeah i i before i could fall

asleep i would have to sort of like perfectly do the sign of the cross oh really yeah yeah so to be right it's very clear the parallels between these two things you know like a need for order yeah a need for uh but like it was self-flagellation part of it as well i mean was it the guilt of not doing it or not doing it right or i mean i guess it's hard to peg that to religion, but was there, do you think it was strictly a chemical thing in your brain or was there chaos in the home?

I think it was more chemical because the fact that when I got on meds, but certainly, I don't know, I think there's, I wouldn't do the broad stroke of it being religion because i'm actually like if it works for somebody i'm i'm all for i have no like yeah there's certainly the lapsed catholic i think i think that ocd and i've said it before in my act even that that there is a ritualized element to it there is a way of of having a order in your life well and when i was most ocd'd out in like high school when it was really reaching its peak yeah i loved going to church it was like so it was it made me it brought peace that you know so that's what it's supposed to do the world is chaotic you don't know what's going to happen a minute to

minute you could die any second or something shitty can happen. Right, right. Not here. No. Not in these boxes. These windows are so beautiful. What wind would blow these in? Look at that. They understand.

But, you know, I went to like 13 years of Catholic school and my mom was my teacher for four of those years in high school. Oh, yeah. And like, but I, you know. Oh, my God. Yeah. And you had to pretend, what, like you were just a kid in a class? Well, I was a real goofball, Mark, in school and stuff. I love cracking jokes.

Sure. So what's fun about that, as you know, is, like, if you make it. You're not doing it with your mother. Well, if you make a teacher laugh, you kind of is like- You're not doing it with your mother. Well, if you make a teacher laugh, you kind of like, hey, I got away with it. Like they laugh, they can't get mad because then, you know. I've usurped the power and they like it. And they like it.

And so now I can't get in trouble. Right. Now imagine having that authority layered on with the authority of your mom. It was, I loved it. It was great. Good village. So you got reprimanded in class, then you got more at home. Yeah, but I would, to make her laugh in front of the class was actually really awesome. Yeah, and you knew how.

Yeah. Because you grew up with it. You had her number. Yeah, she had seven buttons installed in me. Sure. I had found some. So did they, and the class all knew this, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. I picture there was nine people in class all knew this, I'm sure. Yeah.

I picture there was nine people in the class and it was a single farmhouse. Is that wrong? With a wood-burning stove in the center. And everyone's wearing your dad's boots. We all had little, our own chalk slates. Yeah. No, not the way it was? No, it was a class size of like 40 people.

So it was very small. You grew up knowing the whole town, really? Yeah, with my mom being a teacher and my dad owning you know the shoe repair shop down the street they came in contact basically with any of the 8 000 people who lived in our town well i was in iowa city i did a show there that there's a that college has that very famous internationally known writers program yeah i went to that college and so you weren't on the football team they have the writers program. Yeah, I went to that college. And so you weren't on the football team. They have the writers program and the football team.

My parents came to visit me once and I because I was donating plasma. Yeah. And the sore grew on my arm like, you know, when like a pizza gets like that little air bubble pocket that sort of happening in my arm. Yeah. So my, when like a pizza gets like that little air bubble pocket that started happening in my arm. Yeah. So my parents just happened to be visiting me that weekend. And they were like, oh, we should take you to the emergency room. So they took me to the campus emergency room.

And we drove by the football stadium. And I was like a junior senior. And I'm like, oh, that's where that is. And it broke my dad's heart. He's like, you're finding out about college football as we drive your fucking dork ass. Really? Poor dad.

Two girls and you. I know. I thought that. Well, that was always the mythos of me. It was like, we were going to stop at two kids. Yeah. But your father wanted a son. Uh-huh.

So we tried one more time. And we had you, who's not good at baseball. And doesn't want to learn boot repair. Yeah. I mean, my parents now are, you know, they're... They're okay? Yeah. They've always been remarkably supportive.

Like for having zero, you know, this is an... Yeah. The world of entertainment would be an unknown wild world for them. So the fact that they've always been nothing but supportive and have never once even breathed the sort of like, are you sure you want to be like, they never said that? No, it's weird. I, I, I've, maybe they were secretly impressed. Um, I mean, that's a nice, that's a nice way of thinking it. Yeah.

That always is heartwarming to me. I find that more people that I talk to in our business that come from seemingly resistant backgrounds, we're always encouraged. Almost 90%. There's very few that I know that I've talked to whose parents were like, you know, who seemed that they would be adverse to it. We're like, don't you ever fucking do that. I think most of the time that parents are concerned more than anything else. It's not, I've met very few people that were forbidden,

but there is always a sort of like, is that a good idea? Do you know, maybe you should get a degree first in something. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But you got a degree. Yeah. In what?

The like communications and like theater and film. It was like. The broad communications umbrella. Yeah. And it was one of those things that like halfway into college, I go, oh, I wish I had actually done whatever, like. English. Cultural, like some sort of sociocultural bent.

Oh, really? Because you knew you were going to get out and you wanted to see how it wanted to know how other people talked. I think it was also like, I was spending so much time watching movies and reading about movies that it's like, I should have used college as a way to like open my mind up to other things. I mean,

I liked it. And the thing that I really enjoyed was like being able to, there was like a Friday night, Toby Huss, this is where he came from, is No Shame Theater. And on Friday nights at 11 o'clock, if you were a theater dork

and you were going out to the bars and you wanted to hang out with other theater kids, you wrote pieces, you wrote scenes and bits. And so, and then you would go up on Friday nights and perform them.

And Toby Huss was that first, he was part of the first group that put it together. Oh yeah? And it continues to this day and it's great and it's how I met my buddies who I live out here and who live out here in LA. So that's where it started? Yeah, in Iowa City.

And you were doing, writing the sketches and doing the things. Yeah, and oh, the reason I was bringing it up was just because you could read something in a class on a Tuesday that was like a just somebody's little theory, you know? Yeah. And then on Friday, you could kind of like write a sketch that somehow, believe me, it wasn't like I'm doing a witty take on, but it was more just like, oh, that gave me an idea. And then you wrote it. But you were engaging in performing. Yeah and is that where that started uh no i mean i was like uh

growing up you know an intention attention starved person who was like wanted to be did theater i know you busted your mom's chops in class yeah. But did you do high school theater? Yeah, I did that. Like speech. It's time to get it out, Paul. This is the time to come out. You did speech. Yeah, so they had- You did musicals. I did musicals, yeah.

I did, but the year I was cast in The Music Man was the year that there was like this big beer bust, beer party bust. Oh. And if you got caught drinking beer, you couldn't be in the play. And so we lost our cast because our school was so small. So Music Man got canceled. Because of beer in Iowa?

Yeah. Which is weird. I'm now realizing the connection of like, oh, that's what the Music Man is about. It's sort of like our kids are going to play pool. We got to keep them in line ironic yes i believe that would be ironic so that was the only musical you were gonna be in uh no i did like jesus christ superstar and uh you were that guy you did all of it yeah but it was theater nerd yeah but you know it's it's why people like. You get to meet like the 10 other people in your town who are like this and share that interest.

Yeah, no, thank God. Yeah, yeah. Oh, boy. It's a lifesaver. Yeah. I mean, so Friday nights at 11, you know, I didn't drink in college. I was so straight and just wanted to be a good boy to go on Friday nights and put up. like that that to go uh on friday nights and and put up but then that was what's weird about it is sort of a attention there which is like the stuff that i would do on friday nights the sketches were

so uh wild and outlandish and doing crazy things yeah that like it was my way now that i think about it like a in retrospect i go like oh that was me burning off the energy that people would do, maybe go into a kegger or something. Well, right. You had an inner life that couldn't find a way out. It was probably a better way than just blabbering on in a bar or acting like an idiot or throwing up on yourself. I mean, it's not like you didn't miss a lot. People say that, but I actually look back on a regret sometimes. I'm like, I wish I would have partied in college and stuff.

That would have been fun. Yeah, but you don't know how you're built. That could have derailed you entirely. Yeah, right, right, right. I mean, there's always that gamble, you know what I mean? Because sometimes you go back to where you grew up and it's like, that guy's still partying. Well, yeah, and I'll get that insight when I talk to people who are sober. Yeah.

And I'll share that. I'll be like, man, in college, I actually wish I had gone crazy. And they go, that's the complete opposite of my experience. I wish I hadn't been going crazy in college because then I could have enjoyed or appreciated this whatever, you know. But maybe you're not cut out to go crazy, Paul. I saw, you know, love. I saw the party scene where you had a few cocktails. Right, yes.

That's probably what that looks like. Yeah. Is that the guy you wanted to be in high school? That wouldn't have played out. No, that would have, yeah. I mean, but in college, like on Friday nights, I did that. I did a bit once, a monologue, where as I'm doing a monologue, I like start peeing my pants, like on stage.

And like, so like as people are watching it, like this trickle forms in my crotch and then like goes across my thigh. How'd you do that? I just drank a lot of water. So you actually peed? I actually peed my pants like on stage as I was like delivering a monologue where the person's like brain started like falling apart and he started speaking gibberish and as he spoke like gibberish I started like peeing my pants

and then I I'd laid down newspaper because I thought that would be like a dog and it like dripped out of my pants and it went across the newspaper but because I had over drank water out of fear that I might not be able to deliver, it was way too much. And then, so people, after the monologue was done, they were trying to help me out,

like giving old scripts that they had already read to try to soak it up. But it would just like kind of glide across the puddle of urine. I think the impressive part about that story is that you really peed. That, like, you know, usually you figure out a device. Maybe a smart person. Well, no, but that was my first idea was, like, what kind of squirt bottle did you use? How did you rig that up? And you're like, no, I peed. I mean, it's like the character work is not half as interesting.

It's a cheap trick, I think, is what it actually is. It's not a trick. half is interesting it's a cheap trick I think is what it actually is it's not a trick I guarantee you ask dozens of people who did pee pee jokes if they really peed they'd be like no no we had to rig up it no you

peed and afterwards people came up to me and they were like I saw how you tugged on your belt right before it happened like they thought there was a trick of course they did so you're worried about that you didn't drink and do crazy shit, yet the way you did a guy peeing himself on stage during a monologue was to pee? Yeah.

You did fine. Well. You didn't need alcohol. That's commitment. And you probably didn't even think of that. You're like, this is the only way to do this character. This is a very funny idea. But there's. I'm not good at science, so I can't devise even think of that. You're like, this is the only way to do this character. This is a very funny idea. But there's...

I'm not good at science, so I can't devise some sort of rig. But did you have that thought? Or was it just like no question you were going to pee yourself? I thought the fun of it would be if people realized I had actually done it, that it would be like... But, you know, people got upset and it was like... So the idea that you would be celebrated for really peeing backfired. Imagine them hoisting them up on their shoulders.

The guy who peed. No, they're like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Well, yeah. And I wasn't I wasn't a theater major. And the people who were like, really theater people who didn't even go to that thing on Friday nights when they'd see me in the hallway. I remember I'd get like dismissive looks and people would come up to me and be like, you know, a lot of the theater majors don't like you because that's not acting. Yeah, exactly. And they were right.

They were mad at your commitment. Is that like they're spending all the hours trying to get open and vulnerable on stage but none of them would think of actually peeing only the fucking nerd who doesn't drink yeah and it just worked against you it's like what kind of fucking dork would really piss himself for a sketch so i fortunately only have one sketch to do that well that's what they're like for a sketch. Yeah. For a sketch. Yeah. Maybe for Shakespeare. I can get it for Antigone. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I'm proud of you. Oh, thanks, Mark. So you do this thing in college and then like after college, you're like, I'm going to go to LA. Yeah.

And what's cool about the University of Iowa actually is like, it's all people who are like, fuck Hollywood. Like, so. Everyone's fuck Hollywood in college. college yeah even the the professors yeah like the ones who failed in hollywood yeah well i'd go and i'd be like talk to like somebody i'd be like i'm thinking about making a short about this and they never wanted narrative stuff because that was hollywood but art movie yes experimental yeah some Stan brackage yes colors yes colors and lights yeah yeah and or documentaries that was those were the things they were always right right and I look you know at the time it was

whatever you but I look back on it now I'm like oh I that's way preferable to something else I would if it was like we're gonna put you on this track to get you to Hollywood. Right, right. Well, that made you iconoclastic that you saw what you wanted to do and you had resistance from guys who insisted that you do things that may or may not get you anywhere.

Right. Yeah, yeah. But were nonetheless felt that they were champions of the human spirit. Yeah. In their aesthetic sense. Well, my sister's a film professor now, like a theory, not production. And so she like...

Your sister's a film professor? Yeah. My oldest sister, Amy. Where? In Florida. Uh-huh. And my other sister's a nurse. But just felt like I had to be fair

and mention both of them. But my sister... At least one of them's doing something important. Out of the three of you. Yeah. No, there's definitely times where I'm like, okay, my one sister is educating people. The other one is healing people. And I'm like, okay, my one sister is educating people. The other one is healing people.

And I'm just- Yeah, we're all healers. Giving sugar cubes, man, to the masses. No, you're healing. I mean, you know, there's a certain slice of the culture that needs to kind of move through your heartbreak and frustration. I mean, we gotta think that telling those stories

are important in making people feel less alone. Yeah. Well, let me just say, I mean, like, I was going to say this before we even started recording, but I didn't get the opportunity, Mark. Had a lot of technical difficulties. Yeah, well, no. But your podcast here has meant so much to me over the years. podcast here has meant so much to me uh over the years i mean and i i think the the thing you just said i feel like could be said a hundredfold to you which is that i can't imagine how much good

it must feel to know that like people listen to your show yeah and they get to hear people talk about feelings that they also have and like it's mind-blowing how rare that actually is. And I know there was a stretch in 2010, 2011, where I'd listen to your podcast. I'd go out walking for a mile as the sun went down, and it was just the way to get into the night when I was in a really bad place. Oh, yeah? And it continues to be very therapeutic. But you're doing the Lord's

work, somebody's work. Thank you. I'm happy to hear that. It's really beautiful. Well, that's very nice of you, because I do wonder about that. You know, as times get more difficult and things get darker, I'm wondering, like, should I really be talking about this guy peeing himself?

Is this the important stuff that needs to happen? Well, I love that I just said, like, it's feelings that you also share. And I'm like, does anybody have the feeling of like, oh, I pissed my pants in front of an audience to get three laughs? I think that makes you a hero. I appreciate the commitment. I've known guys that have done some pretty risque stuff up on stage in a sketch way. But outside of maybe exposing genitals i don't know that i've seen actual uh peeing yeah well i good for you thank you yeah yeah that's

some uh that's some radical shit it's not the same work that i just extolled for you like you change lives you help people drive to work and not kill themselves. Right. Well, I think that changed a life or two. Changed yours. It certainly must have given, you must have at that moment realized, like, I've got some balls. I got some things to, yeah. And urine's coming from. Yeah, yeah. I did it.

I did it. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. And like, you know, not to just go devolve into pee pee and poo poo talk but at the UC you're not getting a story where you

shit yourself well the UCB once we Neil Campbell my comedy partner yeah I know that guy yeah Neil's the best yeah

funniest dude in the world and comedy's greatest weapon but he we did a Dirtiest Sketch show once at UCB

where I I took a dump on stage, Mark, and the next day, like, Matt Besser, like, came up to me and, like, shook my hand with, like, so much pride in his eyes. Wait, you took a real dump? Yeah.

This is... Right now there's something wrong with you. Yeah, I know. Now there's some pathology. Yeah, yeah. We've just crossed over from taking chances to what the fuck is really. And I think I've heard the loss of 100 general meetings right now, Mark. They're like, is he going to come in and take a dump on my coffee table? These mothers driving to work. So wait, how many people were at the show?

It was like a sold out crowd. Can you shit on stage? Yeah. Gigi Allen style, man. Okay. All right. So what did the audience do? Oh, Mark, it was the best night of my life. It was great.

I remember Neil and I did a sketch and we're naked and that gets its own laugh. I don't do this anymore. This is in my past. This is old Paul. Yes, I haven't done anything like this since pre-Obama. Yeah. This was the Bush years. By the way, just because I know this is a good to be continued spot.

Yeah. Neil and I, our first work we ever did together was on your radio show. What? Yeah. work we ever did together was on your radio show. What? Yeah. I think your show must have reached out to UCB and just,

is there any people who want to do guest bits? And we were so- Yeah, I used to use Wyatt, Sinek, and Seth Morris. Yes, yeah. What did we do? Was I the guy? Yeah. And I remember we were at the UCB because we had a show at 11. Yeah. Or no, midnight. And I don't know what time your show was on but we had to do it from backstage at

the ucb and i remember getting the number with the code to call you in and i was really nervous so like my hands were like shaking in the dark yeah like the backstage of ucb and uh we had the radio on in the background so we could sort of hear it. But it definitely was like the largest audience I had ever had at that point. I don't know. I've tried to remember and I should have asked.

It was both of you? Uh-huh. Yeah, we came up with the bit and then we called in and we did it. And I was a straight man? Yeah, and I remember, you know, whatever.

I could have been fluffing myself up, but I remember, you know when you can tell like somebody's smiling? No, I love talking. I love doing improvised But I remember, you know when you can tell somebody's smiling? No, I love talking. I love doing improvised phone bits. Yeah, but when you could hear somebody smiling as they do it,

I felt like I could hear you smile. Oh, I'm sure I was. Yeah, I was like, oh, that went well. Neil and I were like really, yeah. I wonder what show that was. It was at night, and it was live. On Friday night. All right, so you're doing a lot of UCB.

That's where it starts? That's where you came out here? How did you leave Iowa? How did, what, did you make the funny film or what? When I was in college during the summer, I wouldn't stay in my, in Iowa City. I'd go back home. And the way I occupied my time was like,

yeah, by making little movies or whatever. So I had done that the two summers. And they're all, if you watch them, it's all about being very lonely and melancholy in iowa like that's the experience but uh but then uh when i moved out to la that was like oh four and then the ucb went from new york to la or started a new one in like oh five and i remember the comedy i had been doing open mics and- As a solo standup? Doing, minus the peeing, my pants part,

I would just take the bits that I wrote that were solo things that were more theatery and then do them out here. Oh, and do them as monologues? Yeah, yeah. And Neil and I, Neil would do his stuff too and we'd go out to open mics together and do it. And we also had a sketch group, us two, with Mike Cassidy

and this guy Chris Stangle and they're super funny dudes. But we were doing M-Bar. Scott Aukerman's old show? The early Death Ray show? Yeah, the early Death Ray show, which Neil and I got asked to host Comedy Death Ray one night.

This would have been like 05? I remember. I was doing it then. I remember. Yeah, it was great. I love that show. Oh my gosh. At M Bar. Yes. Holy shit. I mean, like it was wild. Well, it was like the first month I knew about it before coming to LA. When I was in Iowa,

I'd like read online like, oh, there's this. Oh, on a special thing? Yeah. Yeah, special thing. Yeah. And being like, oh my God, there's a comedy show where you can go and see Dino Stanatopoulos do standup. That's amazing. And so I knew Scott and I knew BJ before even moving to LA, so like-

From the website. Yeah, yeah, and Mr. Show, just loving Mr. Show. And Neil and I and Cassidy just being huge comedy dorks. I mean, we're like at the M Bar, like in a corner being like, that's Scott Aukerman. Oh, wow. And Scott was the, him and his wife, Kulop, they were dating at the time. But the two of them were like the surrogate parents. I mean, they were like the people who like looked out for all of us and took care of us.

parents. I mean, they were like the people who like looked out for all of us and took care of us. And I remember maybe after the second or third time Scott saw Neil and I perform, I was talking to Scott afterwards. And this maybe is an obnoxious thing to say. Scott was like, hey, I want to help make you famous. And like when it's your first year in LA that is your hope is that a person would say that to you it's like the thing like you yeah you never said that to me you were already you're doing fine I was something I don't ever I remember right I don't ever remember having stellar shows at M bar is always so cranky and mad at the audience for being too cool yeah well i but it's not cool it's like a bunch of special thing dorks i know i know yeah but i always felt

like i was from the outside yeah that's my problem well i i the first time uh i met you officially met you i think uh judd introduced us at the comedy store yeah and you killed man that was oh good very funny i remember the bit about the billboard of the that's in la for vegas performers yeah yeah yeah who are they yeah who are these people they have one name are they just inventing them a lot of times there's an exclamation point yeah uh but um i you were at the in the green room at ucb and uh came backstage, and there was a group of people. Yeah. And I, in my, like, I want to be liked by everybody way, I came in with a big explosion, like, hey, everybody, how's it going?

Hey, you know. And everybody's like, hi, hello, hello. And you did say hi. Yeah. And I went back into the back dressing room, and I was like, this is Mark Maron. I go in there and I say hi to everybody. He doesn't say hi to me. What's his problem?

And it was actually Harris Whittles was there. And he went, I don't know, man. Maybe people just have a bad day. And if they can't be on in that moment, that's okay. Like from then on, not just with you, but with anybody like that, that peaceful Zen-like fish head, Harris Whittles like philosophy. Stuck with you, but with anybody. Like that peaceful, zen-like, fish head, Harris Whittles-like philosophy. Stuck with you? Totally. I think about it.

It maybe has nothing to do with you. Yeah. And clearly that would push my buttons as a person who's like, I'm going to go to control this situation with my niceness. No, yeah. I mean, we all do it. I specialize in making assumptions about what other people are thinking about me.

It's never great. Like, I don't know. I just had that horrible exchange with Mike Birbiglia. Why did I do that? I'm a grown-ass man. I'm 53 years old. I've known him for decades. Sure, he annoys me,

but why can't I let that go for a second? There are people that trigger me. What are you going to do? You're not one of sure i i'm sure i was completely immersed in my own garbage oh no i mean yeah and i mean that's always the case right were you tight with harris oh yeah he's my brother i mean he's the closest thing to a brother yeah i mean especially i think when you grow up with out brothers and he had an older sister as well, I think guys who didn't grow up with brothers are always on some level searching for a brother. I definitely found that in Harris.

What a sad fucking story. What a terrible loss. Huge loss to comedy, but also the universe. I'm still raw about it, so anything I would say is still like something that I, I don't know my full feelings on, you know, I just know that I miss him every day and think about him every day. And did you guys work together? Yeah, we were in a band together. Uh, uh, the unfortunately named don't stop or we'll die yeah but he was he's a drummer and he was an awesome drummer he was the best drummer i've ever played with because he this is gonna sound so behind the music he like prepare to roll your eyes anybody listening to this but like uh he was a drummer who played like uh with uh. Yeah. Like we would play stuff and he would be able to somehow create a feeling with what he was playing,

which is very, I don't know, it's very rare in drummers. Yeah. A lot of times they're like- What do you play? I play bass, which is like the idiot's easiest- But you need a drummer. Yeah, exactly. You're going to understand the drummer better than anybody.

Yeah. And there was a part, there was one song, there was always one part where i remember we loved playing that part together and so when we were on stage we always glanced over at each other during that part just being like this is just you and me man this is awesome and sorry for your loss man i'm sorry for there's other people who've lost him who yeah it's it's far more painful i mean the the the thing i think about all the time was that he was such a um he's like on the very short list of people who had such a high standard for what was hack and what you know what was original and what was actually good comedy that what breaks my heart

is like oh in 10 years he would have been just as a comedy fan he would have done something that would have been totally changed he already was but like changed comedy because humble brag was a big contribution yeah yeah i mean i i was in uh the rest of development writers room when humble brag was really kicking off and you could tell just like the delight all of hollywood just had about somebody finally has the balls to do this but also have a word for it yeah yeah yeah it's quite a thing yeah and you wrote on that uh i wrote on the rest of the fourth season the one that was on netflix what other one things did you write for i wrote on that and i wrote on a comedy bang bang for a bunch of seasons and uh that was awesome i mean that was like uh for ifc uh-huh yeah companions yeah yeah yeah um and

yeah what else uh did you work with dino yeah the my first writing job was um on moral oral he asked scott ackerman to write a script and scott again like i have 10 of the examples of this scott like uh asked neil and i if we'd want to write the script with him well i would think dino would have a tremendous amount of respect for the guy that shit on stage well it's funny because dino i i loved I mean I first saw him that first season of Conan and I was just like this guy is so funny like he blew whatever the thing you see in

sixth grade I feel like he's raw and ballsy yeah he did the kiss ass turkey I remember was like the funniest thing the guy in the audience the turkey the audience who would over laugh at Conan's joke so he didn't eat him for Thanksgiving and uh but uh dino was my first experience with this where um i had so much admiration for him that i would keep my distance if i saw him in public because i would be like he

doesn't want to talk to me he's on the mount rushmore of comedy or whatever and then i was talking to sc Scott and I was like, oh, I saw Dino out, but I didn't say anything. And he said, yeah, he told me he saw you. He said he was really like upset that you wouldn't say hi. And it was the first time I was like, oh, right. There's also this sensitivity of being like somebody wants to be talked to. But once you're in the club, you're expected to, you know, act like a person. That's true. But I didn't think I was.

Do you now? No, I still have the philosophy of you don't ask to go to the party. You don't cross the room to meet somebody. But that could also be its own narcissism of being like, no, that person walks across the room to me. I'm a little like that. I don't feel like I'm part of it, but I am. And I do like if I see somebody that I really want to talk to, I'll go like do it like a fanboy, though. But I don't I don't ever assume that.

But I think you have a history or a world around you. No, but also of being like somebody who's smart about comedy. So if you came up and introduced yourself to say, I don't know who you're referencing, but like a Steve Martin, it goes a little further than just a guy who's a special thing. But yeah, but sometimes they don't know me. And then I'll tell them who I am and they're like, nope. Of course.

What do you think this course yeah I'm not Kanye guy does a podcast in his garage a very specific bunch of probably recorded music at his like home no I know that but like everybody knows Kanye yes yeah some people know me so how does this I mean so you spent like you were here like a decade before love started to happen, really. Yeah, you know, I... A lot of writing jobs. Mm-hmm. Which, you know, I did this movie.

This was like probably like I'd lived here in like NLA for about four or five years. and uh booked a part in this uh uh chris columbus movie called i love you beth cooper which was this like 20th century fox big release i was the the lead with um this really great actress at hayden panettiere but um and it has its fans but it it just it tanked at the box office. So it was this weird thing of, even when I was experiencing it, I remember thinking like, well, this isn't necessarily what I had imagined, but because it feels like a big thing, then I guess it is.

Yeah. And when it didn't do well, I wouldn't necessarily say I was atoning or anything, but I think the idea of like, I would rather be in a writer's room, writing on a show that I love and respect, like Arrested Development or Comedy Bang Bang, rather than chasing another... Right, someone else's work or... Yeah, yeah.

Well, you were going out though. You made yourself available. You're of that generation, I think, that is proficient in working with other people and doing all these different things i mean you knew how to be on stage you knew how to shit on stage you knew how to write you knew how to you know act to a degree you knew how to uh you know be in the world of uh you know doing a lot of different things so but it was weird because when that movie was coming out i was i had um it was the same time that i had tested for uh snl i'd gone out and tested and it was like a um that was what i was

really wanting to be a part of and like working for how'd that go uh it was good you know it was you meet with lauren yeah yeah it was good uh like, it was out here in LA. So it wasn't the- Full treatment? It wasn't the experience that I think would probably be grander, which is like, oh, you go to 30 Rock and you go up in an elevator and like- Yeah, more grand or more terrifying, you mean? Where'd you meet him? uh on the paramount lot here in la at his offices and stuff but uh he um it was good i i remember i walked in and uh it's interesting like with somebody i'm curious what your experience not just with lauren i you know know that but i just mean like with people oh yeah where'd you hear about that with people that like i have, something happens where when I meet somebody who I really,

really admire and respect, it's when I can most become myself because I have such admiration for their, them that I think their bullshit meter is so high and, and so attuned that if I'm not who I really am, then they're going to hate me or it's not going to go well. That's a pretty good, you know, weird application of some Catholic garbage. But some sort of weird inverted, you know, shame guard. But it's weird because I can't do it with somebody else

like that like other times most times a mask does come up where i go oh i gotta be somebody else for somebody else well that's a very like it's a very uh sort of great um default that you seem to have uh figured out in retroactively in the sense that like i imagine you had to notice you were doing that it wasn't a plan like i'm going to meet or michaels i'm just going to be me it's just something you do yeah it's like this guy's going to see right through me right if i if i don't just show up for this yeah so that's good yeah i remember talking to him he was like what do you think got into comedy i was like i was you know raised catholic and the youngest and i was just like open i treated like therapy you know yeah and at the end of it And I was just like open. I treated like therapy,

you know? Yeah. And at the end of it, he was like, Hey, would you like to come out to New York and test? And I did feel like we had a, I'm talking like a guy who went on a first date,

but I was like, I feel like we had a connection. That's good. And it's the same thing. Like, I'm not, I'll try not to pick up all the names off the ground here, but it was the same.

Like when I met, I got to meet Gary Shanley once and that was the same. You're right. You don't plan it, but like midway through the conversation, you're like, Oh, I'm being myself here.

That's good. And speaking candidly because. I think that's a good thing that to show up for yourself, you know, because you don't have a choice really in those moments, you know, like, right.

Like Gary Shanley is going to fucking see through this. If I, I don't ever think that though, but I do think there are those moments where you want to be seen by this person as who you are and and like it's not even a matter of meeting them as equals but it's a matter of like i think our assumption is is that how are they going to see me at all yeah yeah you know and so maybe there's more care about like how you want to be seen as sure i think so yeah so that's interesting wow uh but you didn't get snl no i went out and tested and uh but i that was the year bobby moynihan got on and he's hilarious and it was like people knew

when we were testing i'm like oh bobby's gonna get this what they don't always just have one spot yeah i mean there was uh but that's who it was. I mean, it's interesting, though, like the other people who tested that year, they all went on to do like their own amazing thing, like Kroll or Jordan Peele. I saw Get Out last night, and it's amazing. It was just like breathtaking how like, what a great movie that was. I got to see it. And it's interesting because I feel like, yeah, like you work to get to test.

Right. And then if you don't get it, you go, oh, okay, I'm going to do my own thing. But I think what's more telling is that the number of avenues to actually do and succeed at your own thing are vast now. Yes. That there was a time where if you didn't get snl it's sort of like all right back to anonymity right right yeah and and now you're like you know i've got a whole network of people i'm gonna work with and i'm already working and i can do this yeah well when you first meet uh or when i first came to la in 2005 yeah there were zero not zero

three comedy writing jobs in town and like it was like no youtube there was no uh special uh uh what do you call it will ferrell site oh funnier dog yeah there was none of that yeah no no no no so it was really the only writing job that i could imagine that would be cool to have was like everybody loves raymond right and that's you know i love that show but it's still mainstream yeah oh it's still mainstream. Yeah, well, it's weird. It was that short a time ago that everything blew up. Yeah, and now a decade later,

you know, I don't want to say this too confidently, but I feel like there's like 1,000 more comedy writing jobs now in town that you could get if you're a young, hungry writer. Yeah. Which it just wasn't the case but yeah new avenues came and i remember when the funny or die uh like super deluxe right youtube world yep it felt like the comparison i remember thinking it was like when nirvana broke yeah and

all these major labels now want to sign garage bands. Right. So Lonely Island was the nirvana. They broke. They were like, oh, internet videos. The kids like them. Yeah. And then you could just feel the corporate tentacles just come down and start reaching in every open mic in every UCB and being like, okay. Maybe this is the new people.

Yeah. We don't know. Yeah. We're old guys, but this seems to be popular. Let's see if any of this people. Yeah. We don't know. Yeah. We're old guys, but this seems to be popular. Let's see if any of this sticks. Yeah. I mean, that's what's awesome about the UCB is they're actually really great at like, I wouldn't say like keeping toxins at bay, but they're basically creating like a farm

where you're going to succeed if you really hone in on your own specific point of view and you're not pandering. But I think also what happens is that it became very clear through the evolution of what you experienced in the arc of your life here that you could find an audience. There was a time where the audience was this one thing. It was just this mainstream blob

that you had to somehow figure out how to crack. And then all of a sudden like with a special thing and with uh funny or die and with like there was always something like and as as the networks lost their power yeah to to you know keep that as many eyes as possible and all these other netflix and other entities started to show up it was like well maybe you don't need to do that maybe you don't need to please everybody it seems to be the model yeah i mean if you can find a reasonable number of people to dig what you do that's the best that's what you're hoping for yeah i mean it's interesting like definitely i feel like uh you know scott

and cool up and the ucb are the people who i like most like oh anything i have to, you know? Yeah. But like, it is something that, right, I guess 20 years ago wouldn't have existed. No, it was all Everybody Loves Ray. That was what you were gunning for. Yeah. Or a late night show.

Well, that was the thing when you're in LA, you're always like, oh, the coolest writing jobs are in New York. You'd be like, oh, you'd be like oh you'd be on SNL or Letterman or that's interesting that shit's over it really is well definitely now in LA you can find cool writing jobs well no you could there's just a lot of interesting things happening a lot in a lot of things you can self-generate so how did the relationship with with Judd happened? That was, I, through the UCB, met Charlene Yee,

extraordinarily talented. She and I were, we do shows together and write songs together and perform and we were in this Will Ferrell movie, Semi Pro,

and we were these two kids in wheelchairs on the side of the, uh, a court. Yeah. Um, and all our scenes got cut,

but because we were basically had to be in the background of a lot of shots, we were just there for a month. Yeah. And so we'd go into our trailer and write songs. And then she was like, Hey, I started writing this movie script,

cheese pizza, give it a read. Let me know what you think. And it was about halfway done. And I loved it. And I mean, Charlene's so funny and talented. And I was like, oh, well, I like this and I like that. And she was like, well, would you want to write it with me?

And then around that time, Knocked Up had came out and really had bowled Judd over. Charlene had bowled Judd over. And he was like, hey, if you ever have an idea for a movie, come in and pitch it. And Charlene, who I, you know, I'll, to my grave, be indebted to her for this, she brought me in to pitch the movie to Judd,

and it was the first thing we, you know, we went and sold it at Universal and got a year working on this movie. It never got made, but that's how I met Judd. And that script, I remember he was like, oh, I can tell that this is the work of somebody who's writing their first script, which sounds like maybe an insult,

but he meant it as like, there's so many ideas here and you can just tell there's so much enthusiasm about. And so when he went to produce this new Pee Wee Herman movie, Judd had asked me if I wanted to co-write with Paul Rubens, who was the first person I loved in comedy. He put us together. And I think that was partly because the script Charlene and I wrote was like a hard PG.

And I think he was like, oh, this totally could fit with this Pee Wee thing we're doing so yeah was that amazing working with him yeah I mean he's like the most beautiful hearted person in the world he's uh he's really I mean it was um it truly was I mean like when I was first growing up I'm not saying this people say this you know like yeah they'll be like I was a big fan it's like you know convenient you're working on their project. Yeah. But I truly like he was the beginning, middle and end of like comedy for me. I loved him so much.

So getting to work with him was really awesome because in addition to him being just a sweetheart and fun to work with and hang out and have laughs and we've become friends now, he's also like really more an artist than a comedian and so i would you know before i met him i once tried to write like a peewee-esque script yeah for myself and it was really it's not good and i remember reading and being like this sucks and peewee's big adventure is so good i mean it's my favorite comedy and i'm like it's so good how how did how would somebody even make and then getting to work with him i was like oh it's because he's a genius that's that's the how you got to be a genius but the thing that was really cool with him is like he going back to the artist thing is like he's really about minimalism so it's about

like this line doesn't need says too much and you can pull this out and i would overwrite you know i would have like a really hacky setup punchline joke and he was like you know if i just like laugh here that's like will be funnier if i just go haha you know like okay and i type in haha and it would be funnier and so the thing that i learned from him was like about like stripping stuff away and like making it just the sort of like beautiful polished jewel. Right. It's important to learn that. Yeah. But it's interesting because the thing that like I've learned from Judd is like going as deep as possible with stuff to, like emotionally or just like depth of ideas.

Like, okay, this person's in this situation. What could happen here? And my favorite thing to do ever is just do one of those kind of like blitz, idea blitzes where you're just like, okay, from the next 10 minutes, I just have to like come up with every idea I possibly can. For this situation.

Yeah. And so working with Judd and Paul was interesting because it was like two good flavors going together, which was like Judd's depth and like Paul's like minimalism. Yeah. Or like simplicity. And goofiness. Yeah, yeah.

There's a sincerity. Like there's a sincerity in the peewee goofiness. Yeah. And then there's also a sincerity obviously and like judd stuff of like hey i'm not i'm gonna this is gonna be about feelings and emotions right and i'm i'm willing to stick my chin out and be emotional in this scene yeah and i think that in love you definitely do that yeah well that's judd's you know guiding hand yeah yeah big time and how much did you write how many people were involved in the writing of it well uh my wife leslie arfin and i we uh uh co-created it with judd yeah and uh oh

p.s when leslie and i were first dating and she found out i took a shit on stage she was like that's when i fell in love with you they're paid off it's all about the women isn't it well i think i think for her it was also like- You knew in your heart that that's, I'm doing this for the chicks. Well, I'm married now, so I'm like way past this point. But I remember, oh man, like seven, eight years ago when the show's about to start and you look through the curtain. And you're like, who am I trying to impress this show? And it would be the little boost to like, get you to do a good show.

It's so sad. I never had that sadly. I was like, this is not going to work. No, I was always like, this is going to be terrible. It never paid off.

I mean, but I remember I was looking through the curtain. This was like eight or nine years ago. I'm going to charm that one. Yes. Yes. And essentially irritate them. So,

so you guys all created it and you all, who writes all the scripts oh well we all do and then we have a staff of uh great writers okay yeah judd's a judd's a good support oh of course i mean that's the reason it's on it's like and uh and judd's like you know i first saw freaks and geeks in college and uh for the next four years i just wrote plays and stuff that was just a ripoff of freaks and geeks yeah just not necessarily about like high school but just the oh you can do this sort of sad funny thing yeah and then at the end of college i looked back on everything i wrote and i was so embarrassed by how much I like revealed and said.

And then so for the next 10 years of my life, it was all like goofball, absurdist, sketch comedy stuff. Cause I was like, I never want to go back to the point where I reread something and I'm like embarrassed that. Well, that's what you was. Well, then you're lucky you didn't drink. See, there's the other, there's the other silver lining about not being a partier.

You can be embarrassed without drinking, apparently. Embarrassment and shame can take any form. Yeah, it seems like that's one of the exercises you do now that the OCD is over, and you've learned how to ride. It's like, all right, this is an embarrassing and shameful thing that happened in my life. Let's work it. How many different things can happen that'll make me feel embarrassed and ashamed? That's the new exercise.

Well, that's what's awesome about Judd now is he's able to, I'm now finally going back to that place of writing that I, whatever, roll your eyes, but scared to write because I'm just like, oh, I don't want in five years to look back on it. And I'm sure I will. I'm sure I'll look back on this interview in five years and go like, I can't believe I had that philosophy or that philosophy i don't know that's true i think as you get older and you get more uh accustomed to seeing your work done and doing your work is like

you may say you know that's not where i'm at now but that was me then and that's better than like yeah that's nice to hear yeah i mean yeah give yourself Yeah, give yourself a break. You're doing good. But I mean, I think, yeah, somebody said to me once, they were like, oh, if you weren't embarrassed by it, that would be bad because then you wouldn't have grown. And it's a sign of growth. I think in the series, there's a lot of, you know, and I think it all plays in what we talked about in terms of the risks you've taken on stage. terms of the risks you've taken on stage and you know the shame that drives you or whatever is that you do in the series are you make yourself very you know vulnerable and and and um you are able to stay in that that that that you know it's it's right for the character to have these you know to be whatever it's not nerdy it's a sort of like you know you're not a guy that's sure of yourself yeah and uh you did you definitely had the obsessive nature but fortunately for you it was It's a sort of like, you know, you're not a guy that's sure of yourself. Yeah.

And you definitely had the obsessive nature. But fortunately for you, it was just on, you know, shame and how to avoid it. Well, you know, and Judd's really great at guiding that. Like we were writing like a month or so ago. We were talking. It was like we had to come up with an ex-character on the show. And he was like, well, why do you think you've been broken up with before? You think it's, like, probably they thought you were a loser. It was like, you got to go in there and, like, it becomes, I mean, especially since the character is some degrees away.

I mean, I'm sure you've had this experience with your show, too. I'm curious. Like, when you go into the writer's room and people are pitching ideas and they'll be like well gus would do this because he's a huge pussy and i'd be like well he's got his reasons uh like everybody uh he's not exactly that and uh yeah yeah but yeah yeah no yeah i definitely had that it's tough you have to be like you know i've been in therapy for eight or nine years now like heavy duty love therapy but you know the show sometimes does feel like well yeah but also you start well after you do a season or two you start to realize that there is a part of you that is characterized that it is not all of you and you do you are

able you are able to get a little distance from the character of you in the show and you and maybe that's like what's fun about it well yeah once you figure that out after the first of you in the show and you and maybe that's like what's fun about it well yeah once you figure that out after the first season you're like you can write to that guy yeah without that weird fear right yeah i mean it's it's interesting because like uh you if you want to if you're a person who wants to be liked and who don't you know right like sometimes that's not going to be the most interesting thing for the show. I mean, I'll get hurt sometimes when people are like, oh, he's a, my character's unlikable. Or when people say nasty things about my looks in relation to Gillian Jacobs' character.

I like, it hurts me so bad. It cuts so deep. Well, here, here, try this. Don't read that. But there's some times where you can't. It penetrates the bubble in a way that you can't. And the thing that's complicated about it is, well, if I made this show to be a 10-episode commercial

for why you should think I'm a great guy, I would hate it no and they would hate you more yeah yeah yeah well no you did a good thing and I'm like you know I didn't know how you would be and this is a very enjoyable talk

and I'm happy for you I'm happy for you Mark and I can't you know I'm not going to be able to say anything that's going to stop you from beating the shit out of yourself well believe me there is like you know, I'm not going to be able to say anything that's going to stop you from beating the shit out of yourself. Well, believe me, there is like, you know, being such a big fan of the podcast and stuff, there's always like this like, I hope I don't blow this WTF in your, you know. No, no, it was great. I thought we were going to do 20 minutes and we did an hour and a half. Really?

Yeah. Aw, that's nice. Thanks for coming. Oh, thanks for having me. Aw, that's nice. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. I feel like I could have talked longer even with that fella.

That Paul Russ fella. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for my upcoming tour dates. This weekend I'm in Oakland. That show at the Fox is close to selling out. If you want to get those tickets, I'll be in Seattle. I think there's a few tickets for that. I'll be at the Vogue in Vancouver on the 26th. Those are the dates coming up this weekend. Again, go to wtfpod.com slash tour for those. I'll play a little. I'll play on my new guitar with the tone I found pretty organically. ¶¶ Thank you. Boomer lives! We'll be right back. Tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials.

Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a

special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.