WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 798 - Paul Beatty / Jackie Kashian

Episode Date: March 29, 2017

Marc was blown away by author Paul Beatty's celebrated novel The Sellout and wanted to know how a writer can turn a stew of ideas about identity, race, pride, language and representation into a provocative and hilarious book. Paul visits the garage to provide some answers and reflection. Plus, Marc's friend Jackie Kashian stops by to talk possums, iguanas, sci-fi, and her new comedy album. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

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got a nice talk with Paul Beatty, the author of The Sellout, a novel that kind of blew my mind. He's also written some other stuff that I haven't gotten to yet, but The Sellout, I got to, and it's one of the funniest fucking books I've ever read. Really just layers upon layers of funny and deep and cutting and smart. And I needed to talk to that guy, so he's here today. Also, my friend Jackie Cation will be here today. She's got a new record out. I am not the hero of this story. It's out now.

She dropped by for a little bit. I always like seeing Jackie. Makes me laugh. She's one of the people that makes me laugh. How's it going out there for you people? Are you all right? Friday night, this Friday, I'll be in Austin, Texas. Next, am I going to go to Opie's Barbecue out in Spicewood?

Is that going to happen? Do my pills erase that? See, I haven't gotten into that mindset. I haven't gotten into the mindset where, all right, these statins mean I can eat whatever the fuck I want, right? I haven't gotten to that mindset yet because I haven't gotten to blood tests

to see how they're doing. Next weekend, Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater, April 7th. At the Paramount Theater, April 8th. And those are the nearest to us as far as dates go. Like I said, the shows have been good. I've been having a good time stretching it out, doing an hour and a half, two hour shows, trying to find that hour 10 for the special that I'll be taping in Minneapolis.

If you're, hey, you know, that's another thing. Why don't I tell you about that? If you're in Minneapolis, I'm going to be doing two shows at the Pantages Theater on April 29th for a Netflix special. Let's assume everything will be in place in terms of the world and most of the federal government. I'll be there. I'll be doing that.

So come out today. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour to get linked up to the tickets there and see the rest of the dates coming up in Portland and Philly and D.C. and Madison and Milwaukee. But, yeah, we did Oakland last week with Dino, Dean Del Rey. We did the Fox Theater in Oakland. What a stunning venue. What an amazing theater that was. It was a pretty good time. We had a good show.

Dino did good. I did good. But I've been dealing with some odd vocalizing in the room lately. For some reason, I'm in the middle of my set in Oakland, and then some guy just starts screaming, you can save John Frusciante. You're the only guy that can save John Frusciante. Have John Frusciante on the show.

You can save him. And I'm like, okay, I don't mind engaging with the audience a tad. And, you know, I said, yeah, I hear you. I mean, it might be a tall order to save John Frusciante from what I understand. But maybe, you know, maybe. And I thought I settled him down. But he just kept screaming it. And I guess they removed him down, but he just kept screaming it, and I guess they removed him.

Very odd heckle. I don't know if I would call it a heckle as much as a disruption or a desperate plea to help somebody out, but it was odd, and it was jarring, and I had to rejigger and reconnect and move on. But I don't mind pleasant crowd interaction. But then I go up to Seattle the following night, and it was good. It was a good show. I love Seattle.

Saw some nice people. I had dinner with Lynn Shelton. She's going to be directing my Netflix special. She lives up there, and that was cool. And then we go do the show. A guy from there opened for me, Yogi Paliwal. He did a good job. Had to deal with a little weirdness from the crowd.

There's a lot of wooing, which is okay in context, maybe at the beginning. But you guys know how I feel about that. But then there's a woman up front who was drunky and just kept talking just kept talking to me kept talking at me uh you know most of the rest of the room uh couldn't hear it but it became disturbing and disrupting she kept interrupting and i would uh i would tell her to shut up in a nice way and then i'd apologize for being abrasive but by the third time i was like you know shut the fuck up enough already then she got upset and the man she was with it got upset it time i was like you know shut the fuck up enough already then she got upset and the man she was with her got upset it's like it was you know well-intentioned but

unnerving and disruptive and then you know i felt myself being kind of guarded and a little defensive and i felt myself drifting into old habits and wanting to you know burn the set down and but uh but i did not i did not do that and all in all it was nice to be in seattle and i was very excited on sunday to be going to vancouver to be flying to vancouver because i love vancouver i fucking love that city i've always loved that city and uh now even more on some level just to and i've talked about this before recently just to fly in or to get off a plane in Canada to feel the cultural shift, the weight of the malignant kind of cultural darkness that is upon us here. not looking at tv you just feel the weight of the shift into this um this tense and uh uncomfortable and frightening environment down here and then to sort of step into the world of vancouver which is you know beautifully integrated nice and calm people are pleasant they're uh not just

polite but they're warm and maybe i'm romanticizingizing, maybe I'm generalizing, but I felt relaxed. And my opener, Charlie Demers, very bright, funny guy. And I just relaxed and opened up. And then the following day, I stayed an extra day because I like Vancouver so much. And I went to this place that makes shoes. And I don't always go out into the world and, you know, engage or what. But, you know, I like boots. But these people were very nice.

They're very, you know, earnest. And it's called Love Jewels Leather Shoe Company. They started small, and they are still really small. But it's almost like a shoe-made- made to order place because they're in such demand. So I went over there to this weird part of Vancouver that seemed a little industrial. I didn't know what I was getting into or where I was or what the lowdown was. And I go to this address. It's an unmarked building.

I go upstairs. It's like an artist building where there's spaces for creative people. Well, mostly artists, functioning, working artists. I don't know if they're functioning but they're working but uh this love jewels weather company the shoe company they've got this big corner space up top where they're making boots and shoes just a bunch of nice young folks you know artisans shoe art leather shoe artisans making the stuff and i got to talking to everybody and they measured my feet they're going to make me some some shoes and it was one of those moments where i'm in vancouver i like the food i like the people the scenery's great what could i just come up here

and and intern at a shoe making place could i become a cobbler i think that might be the next i i that's part of my fantasies is disappearing to some other part of the world where i just cobble where i just uh you know work quietly and bend leather over souls i can do it man if i focus i can do it jackie cation is a uh a great friend of mine and i think she's very funny she's got a new record out i'm not the hero of this story you can get it now she also hosts the podcast the dork forest and the jackie and laurie show which she does with laurie kilmartin and who i also love so uh she stopped by. So this is me and Jackie hanging out for a few minutes. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. and ACAS Creative.

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How many possums do you see at once? There's a whole family. Whole family of possums saw him one night, creeped me the fuck out. Yeah, they're like gargoyles. Right. It was two possums and three baby possums. It was kind of cute, but I stayed in my car. That's my feeling on it, is that baby possums are cute, and then something bad happens. They don't stay cute.

They just, there's nothing appealing about a possum, the way it moves. It was, yeah, the waddle. I'll tell you, it was, you know, I appreciate seeing a complete family as much as anyone. Sure. And so it was lovely to watch them, but I was not getting out of my car. Yeah. It wasn't that sweet that they're all together. Those ugly, horrible things

that are, I think, relatively harmless but they're just... But super intimidating looking. Disturbing looking. Yes. So, wait, now you have... The iguana's old now? Yeah, the iguana's old.

Andy got him, right? Back in the day. Back in what day? Like, what day do you buy an iguana? He didn't. He was working at PlayStation, Sony PlayStation. He's a game designer. My husband. And so you should know, back in what day like what day do you buy an iguana he didn't he was working at playstation sony playstation he's a game designer

my husband and so you should know before you ask and email me at jackie at jackiecation.com what games did he work on here's the famous game

he worked on god of war 2 god of war 3 oh those those yeah I don't know anything about it exactly and he was part of

a large large team so take calm down. Yeah. It's a great job. You were correct. But he's still a genius. He's a genius.

Okay. And it's lovely. Yeah. So one of his level designer buddies shows up at work with three iguanas that the guy Impulse bought. Oh, really? Yeah. That's not my first.

I don't buy much, but I think that would be it. I wouldn't impulse buy an animal on a dare. Right. Don't impulse buy anything that eats. Three of them. iguanas grow to be three and a half feet long so you've kept this thing and you right so you can't really go like i'm just gonna let it go right oh yeah yeah no no then it'll be in the sewers of that los angeles doesn't have but the um the crazy thing is is so he was like who wants an iguana after he's alerted to this fact so andy took one another guy's work took one another guy

work took one those two guys the guy who bought him and the other guy they killed their iguanas in the first year they killed them on purpose no no they accidentally iguanas are actually quite difficult to get to maturity yeah because they're tiny they're like the size of my hand yeah when they're little right and you have to kind of make sure that they get enough light and the right kind of light and all these things oh you guys really cared for the reptile andy is the one i am not uh i am so now you have this sort of old galapagos looking very much eagle iguana he is regal he is a he is regal tiberius dracus is his name of course it is yes it's named after the roman general tiberius gracchus because andy is overeducated. Yeah.

Nothing wrong with that, I guess. Always, never a shortage of conversation. Right. Never. Yeah, yeah. Never a dull moment. So I haven't seen you in years, I feel like. Is that possible? It's been a year and a half easily, I think.

Really? I think I saw you at the, my favorite times of seeing you in the last couple of years was I pulled into the comedy store. Right. And you yelled at me, what are you doing here, Cation? And I said me what are you doing here cation and i said what are you doing here and i'm like i'm on the wall what are you doing here and i was like i'm just looking for free parking i'm on the wall i have to be here exactly you're on the wall it's it's been prophesied the prophecy has come true. That's fucking hilarious.

When people tell me I say things, I'm like, what an asshole. It actually made me laugh so hard. Whenever anybody asks me to do that, I'm always like, what's the parking situation? Yeah, me too. Because that's all I want. That's all you care about. After a certain age. I'm done.

I'm like, even if, I'm like, if you booked me, I never worked the laugh factory either. But I'm like, has the valet still there? Because I'll do it. I'm willing to pay 10 bucks to. I never worked there because I don't know really where to park. You know, they send you behind this building and you're not sure if it's okay. Right. I don't work there because I don't know where to park either.

Hilarious that we don't work there because we're like, I don't know. It's just not clear to me. Like, because like you drive up and then that you know someone told me once you pull into that there's a building across the street on the same side of the street okay you go through an archway and then you go into the back of this apartment building right you've already lost me well but it never felt right yeah it was one of those situations where you lock the car and you're like you sure this is all right here because i'm going to get towed. Yeah. It's why the improv has always been my regular club of choice

because they have the Fred Siegel lot. I'm like, oh, I know where I'm going. Oh, behind the improv. Yeah. I haven't been there in a long time.

I don't know why because I feel like if I... If you're getting up enough at the store, of course. If I'm in town and I can knock out

three sets a week, four sets, I'm good. Yeah. Just to stay in shape. So I go in the gym. How much do I have to exercise weekly to get my my comedy heart rate up what do i yeah you know i do that podcast now with

kill martin i love her i love you both how is that thing uh it's uh hilarious but it's what's it called it's called the jackie and laurie show on nerdist okay and it is hilarious only because she wants to do three sets a night yeah and so she's got me in this mode of competitive, well, how many sets am I getting this week? And who cares? What are you guys? New comics? Are you just starting out? I just, okay.

Did you just pass? The album just dropped, right? What's it called? I Am Not the Hero of This Story. I Am Not the Hero of This Story. Jackie Cation's new album. That's right. For the first time ever, I made all those lists.

You did? I've never even been close to making any of those, like iTunes, Amazon, Billboard, nothing. Congratulations. Thank you very much. How is that translating to sales, Jackie? I have no idea. My father also lives and would like to know. Oh, yeah.

And so I assume I'll find out from SoundExchange two months from now. Well, wait. You should accept it, but you're making it, people are buying it. Is it on a label? Yeah, it's on stand-up out of schlitzel yeah schlitzel out of uh how long you're taking to put that thing together oh i write them all right i'm just like i recorded it uh just the december 26th or 28th schlitzel schlitzel is a great champion of stand-up and a very uh sort of uh uh meticulous craftsman of the stand-up record. Right.

And sometimes bites off more than he can chew. Like he'll take too many projects on at once. No, I've done, I think he re-released one of my albums and he did two. So I know the Dan system. Yeah. I get those weird checks. You get the weird checks every three or four months. Well, and I always, my whole thing with Dan is I said, I'm going to be kind of a jackass

about this because I want this to come out. Like, as far as I'm concerned. This year. Yes. As far as I'm concerned, it's recorded. Within a year of recording. I'm done. Yeah.

As far as I'm concerned, just slap it together. Yeah. Let's cut it into tracks. Yeah. I've given you the art. We'll call it a day. Well, how many shows did he record? Four?

He recorded all seven. Oh, my God. So he did seven shows. So that's what he, see that's biting off more than you can chew. No, I listened to my own set five times. Yeah.

And I really, I knew that it was probably going to be Thursday night set. And that's what it was. And then I pulled a couple of jokes that I did better on Friday for a show. Oh, you made these decisions and told him? Entirely. Oh good.

I am a little OCD about my comedy. So it's my album. I'm going to listen to my own. It album i'm gonna i'm gonna listen to my own it's gonna drive me nuts to listen to my own jokes five hours of which and then i'm gonna cut him in to try you know essentially i picked the tracks i gave him time code yeah and then uh he put it together and mastered it and then he gave it back to me and then i cut him into tracks and then i gave it back to him and then i gave him the art and then he and then i named the tracks immediate regret about some of the naming of the tracks well how'd the cover come out that's always the

tricky one that always ends up being regretful um right uh you ever look at stand-up like comedy records you're like yeah because i've done it too where you just do that fucking cover and you're like this is great and you're like what the fuck great. And you're like, what the fuck was I thinking? Why am I wearing that hat? I've only regretted one cover and it was the one that I didn't have anything to do with. Because the thing is, is I try not to regret anything that I sweated over and I just let it go. I'm like, this one is called I'm Not the Hero of This Story and a woman who did a lot of fan art. But she's a great artist. That's what I had ultimately.

Yeah. I'm dressed like Dan Frontier in front of a Conestoga wagon. Uh-huh. Right. So you did go with the comedy element. I thought it was funny. That's always the thing that bites you in the ass when you're looking back at your album covers. Well, you remember Tim Cavanaugh?

Tim Cavanaugh? Yeah. Remember his headshot? Was him tied down with a bunch of army guys on top of him, like the Lilliputians? I do kind of remember that. Yeah, it's hard not to see that headshot when you're working the road. Look at that thing in the middle. Oh, my God.

That is hilarious. Me with the two pairs of glasses and then doing the ones on the top of my head like John Lennon. Yeah. That was my first headshot. You should see mine. It had a lot of cleavage, and I used to sign it on the cleavage. Wish you were here.

Oh, wow. Good stuff. Sassy. Sassy. Hilarious. Keep writing, Cation. Keep writing. Oh, my God.

So dumb. So is this your second or third record? Fourth. Fourth, right? Yeah, yeah. We just keep churning them out, and you're sort of like, does anyone give a shit? When people go like, I've never heard any of these. I've got five, six CDs.

Right. does anyone give a shit like when people go like I've never heard of you I've got five six CDs right I just did a nerd cruise with like minded individuals and so many people was like I've never you were really funny I've never heard of you and I'm like

I am a well kept secret well there are like twelve of those people yeah they're very young that's what we forget it's like how they're going to hear they don't have enough

space they haven't filled their brain up enough yet right they've only been exposed to a very you've got to start new a narrow swash of a swath of stuff yeah i recommend you start with the bread album uh

listeners of marin and then you go to horcrux and then you go to this fucking thing exactly circus people go back if you're joneson uh that first album quite honestly it's okay which nerd cruise uh joko jonathan Colton. Nerd cruise. And it was amazing. How does that sell out? There was 1,780 people. On a boat. On a ship. This is the first year that they rented the whole ship.

Previously, they were just part of a ship. And then they'd huddle up. And it was cozy. I guess it was cozier for nerds. They were like, oh, there's people who just like Kurt Cruises. I'm going to go hang out with someone who just likes Saturated. How long? Seven days. Oh, I can't. I get nauseous.. I'm going to go hang out with someone who just likes... How long? Seven days.

Oh, I can't. I get nauseous. Plenty of places to hide. And, wait a minute, I should show you this. All right. They gave us these buttons, and the buttons said, yes, I can do friendship right now, or no, I can't do friendship right now. Friendship.

Friendship. Like, don't fucking talk to me, or you can talk to me. It's helpful for nerds, I guess. It's real helpful, I think, for all humanity. Oh, there you go. No, I do not want to do the friendship right now. Oh, what's the other one say? Yes, I do want to do friendship right now.

Is this code for... For anything? For, yeah. It's code for nothing. For a bowl of keys? No, it's not code for anything. No, it's not. Yeah, no, it's not going to get any... It's just a cute thing. It's a keys? No, it's not code for anything. No, it's not. Yeah. No, it's not going to get any.

It's just a cute thing. It's a cute thing, and it's also a, seriously, I'm on the spectrum. Leave me the fuck alone. That's a better button. Maybe next year. Seriously, I'm on the spectrum. Leave me the fuck alone. Where's that T-shirt?

That's the best one I've heard. So Jonathan's a musical actor? Yeah, yeah. You know, he wrote the- No, people love him. People love him. He came to- I don't know enough.

I liked the guy. I met him a few times. Right, nice guy. And he's essentially like if Weird Al didn't write parodies, or if they might be giants, we're silly. Because he wrote the final song, Still Alive, in the video game Portal. Okay. Those are all words that you know.

That was his big break? That was his break. He wrote a song at the end of a video game. Yeah, well that's- But it was Portal, and Portal is huge. Okay, well so that's, you gotta get it where you can. Well that's it. And who are the other comics on that?

It was Aparna. Aparna and Encherla. Yeah. Cameron and Rhea. Mm-hmm. Cameron Esposito and Rhea Butcher. And then Janet Varney and a bunch of improv people. Oh, wow.

Like Hal Lublin and- So a lot of entertainment options. A lot of entertainment options. And then the Double Clicks were music acts. They're sisters out of Portland. Essentially, like if Garfunkel and oats were nerdier oh wow so if you think of like aisha tyler yeah who looks like a supermodel but is constantly playing massive multiplayer yeah yeah i guess so yeah yeah i guess that's true you know that

there can be a hidden nerd complex does she just look like a supermodel or was she a supermodel? I don't know what her whole story is. I've never done a long interview with her. We should probably, I should probably do that at some point. Yeah, she's awesome.

You know, it's like it gets away from me. You know, I reach out to a lot of people it doesn't happen and then some people I'm like, oh shit, I should just, you know,

why haven't I talked to them yet? You know, your life just keeps going. Right. Well, on and on. Yeah. The dork forest is nothing like that but it's like keeps going right well on and on it's yeah the dork

forest is nothing like that but it's like that you know and uh just because it's and that's still weekly still weekly yeah i recorded six on the nerd cruise as you can well imagine why not i could have recorded 1780 get some in the can get some in the can yeah that's it and then i just have three months off now is there a lot of food on the boat that's what i remember about the one cruise i was on. It's like a bell rings and you eat. It's terrifying. That was my greatest fear.

It wasn't the booze. It wasn't the ocean. It was the ongoing buffet. I dealt with it okay, but not great. Not great. It's very hard. Every day with the ice cream, Cation? No.

No. Not cool. Well, that's the same being on set. You're like, what the fuck is that dessert? Exactly. Why is that here? That's not something you can eat every day. That's why I'm going to eat it every day I'm here.

Because it's finite. It's going to be over any minute. And also I have this weird thing where it's like, you just can't leave that food out. Someone's got to eat it. I have that too. I got to help out. Exactly. We don't want it to go to waste.

Yeah. So are you on Maria's show? I'm doing a bit part, sort of like I did on yours. Yeah. I have a bit part next week I'm recording with. Really? Yeah. Were you on the first season?

Yeah. They cut me though. I did the episode with Andy Kindler. How'd that go over? Did they cut Andy? They cut Andy as well. Do you know why? Because I don't know if you've seen it.

I've only seen the first three episodes myself. Really? Do you know why? Because I'm in the fourth episode. Right. And it's funny because you know who it is. It's Lady Dynamite, right? Yeah.

It's Maria's show. And it's Arrested Development, South Park, and Maria Bamford's act all shoved into a blender. Right. So it's filthy, weird, and genius all in a a glorg and so there's so many layers to it that i was not surprised that they cut essentially was she and i discussing dick jokes yeah it was like there was well you know i love her and i want to watch the show and i had fred in here melamed okay and um he's great he's great and and uh you know i talked to andy a lot but i but like it's just i don't know where people find the time.

I don't know what I'm doing with my time. Right. Where you could be watching it. Where you watch things. Yeah. You know, I've just got to sit down and lock in, and it's got to catch me. It's got to grab me. I'm rereading some bullshit.

You are? I'm stopping the voices in my head. That's what I'm doing. What are you reading? Right now, I'm rereading Lois McMaster Bujold's space opera, The Vorkosigan Saga. Really? Yeah, all those are words. I don't know what that you just said.

Those are all just words. It's science fiction, and it's this woman out of Minneapolis who wrote this great space opera, and she's great. It's one of my favorite lines is lead character Cordelia, whatever, from Beta. Yeah. Beta colony, technological colony. Yeah. Like super tech. Right.

Fellow that they end up getting together from a super patriarchal military, military. Colony. Colony called Berriar. They get married. That guy becomes the regent. It becomes space opera and political drama. Sure. Because he becomes the regent to the young king, right?

Yeah. And at one point, they're at a party, and she's from this uber-liberal tech colony. Yeah. And one of his political enemies comes up to her and says, you know, Errol's bisexual. And she goes, sure, but he's monogamous right now. This is her husband? Yeah. Uh-huh and um the guy's like like he tried to blow up their marriage by by alerting her that right bisexual and she's like

yeah yeah i know he used to be with a fella yeah and did she know that she had known it um but um so that failed it failed so much i mean i don't know if you if it were a surprise like if you were with somebody and you found out after you had married them or been with them for years that they had had a relationship with the same sex, would it freak you out? No, it's happened. Right. You just go, well, I... You're sort of like, wait, what? Okay.

Okay. That's exactly how I responded. I dated this one guy who told me that he used to date guys in Germany. That's very specific. He was German. For sweaters. He said, I'd get a real nice jumper out of it. And I was like, is that prostitution?

What were they doing? Well, that adds another element to it. Guys blowing guys for sweaters. It felt like a whole other level. It's one thing to have a relationship, but if it's just about the sweaters yeah that guy's genuinely it did make it uncomfortable i was like well we will not be dating more than this then i mean that was the only time is that one of the sweaters right how about that one that seems a nice cashmere well i like that the idea that uh the one thing that's interesting, it seems to me, about that science fiction story is that the human thing hasn't shifted.

I like stories that honor that. When you start to realize humans in the form they're in now have been around for however long they've been around and haven't changed much. No. And they might not. Right. The committee meeting is still the worst in everybody's head. That seems like a nice grounded sci-fi story. It's pretty great.

Well, good luck with the record. Yeah. I am not the hero of this story. Jackie Cation's new CD and download, and you've got the one you do with Kilmartin. Yeah, Jackie and Laurie show. And you've got the dork forest. Forest, yep, which if you've got time,

go back on and talk about something that isn't blue jeans. Okay. Yeah. And then, okay, I'll come back. Maybe cats. I'll come back on. Yeah. I'd love it.

Sure. And then also episode four of the first season of Lady Dynamite. Yeah, exactly. And where they cut all my lines, but I'm pictured. Are you touring? Like a crazy person. Really? Just all around? What's the touring? Like a crazy person. Really? Just all around?

What's the website? Jackiecation.com. You can go to familypetancestry.com because it points to that because it made me laugh. Don't you want to know if your cat came over on the Mayflower? Don't you want to know if your dog's- I'd love to know where my new kitten comes from because he's got an Egyptian head. See? Yeah.

You're like- Abison in something like he's exotic, like a genius cat. It's funny. I guess people do that with kids too. Like this he's exotic. Like a genius cat. It's funny. I guess people do that with kids, too. Like, this one's special. Right. Look at its ears. Right.

So I do that joke about Dogs of the American Revolution, right? Having your dog join the DAR. Some guy emailed me. I did the joke on Conan. A guy emails me. He's like, my cat is actually a direct descendant of Truman's cat. That's funny. And I was like, are you kidding? There's half and i was like are you kidding i hope there's half

of me that hopes he's kidding and there's half of me that's like how did you do that how did you trace it well i mean depending where he lives and what you know i mean i think like because if you go down to key west there's all those hemingway cats those six-fingered hemingway cats all right then you could actually get a hemingway cat if you wanted well yeah there's they're just all over the place yeah and they're they are from the original six-fingered cat it's easy to identify right yeah that is a mutant cat well it's great seeing you i love talking to you thanks for having me jackie cation i'm not the hero of this story is out now. Listen to her podcasts. Dork Forest or the Jackie and Laurie show.

So having your mind blown by a book is one of the great experiences of being human. So do that occasionally. Sometimes it's hard to find the books that are going to blow your fucking mind. But they're out there, right? This Paul Beatty book, The Sellout, was astounding. And I was excited to get an opportunity to talk to him. What I'm saying is The Sellout by Paul Beatty is a hilarious book. And you can't really put it down. It is a hilarious book, and you can't really put it down.

And it's deep and layered and funny and dark and light and just brilliant. It won the prestigious Man Booker Prize for Fiction last year, and it's now available in paperback. And this is me talking to the author of that book, Paul Beatty. All right, so you were in Boston, and you went to BU. I did. But we were at BU at the same time. You would have been a year ahead of me. Absolutely. In the English department.

No, psych. You were in the psych department. Well, and you knew we had common friends, maybe? We knew Sue Silverman. Sarah's sister Sue dated a guy I knew briefly. Who was that? A guy named Steve Brill. He's a film director.

And I remember meeting Laura Silverman with Sue in a ski jacket. But I don't know, what was Sue studying? Sue was doing psych. She was? Yeah. Now, what compelled you to do psych? I don't know what was sue studying she was doing psych she was yeah now what compelled you to do psych i don't know my friends tell me i always said i was i wanted to be a psychologist yeah so uh what compelled me i have no idea but um it was the right call at the right time i think yeah do you find that the stuff that you learn there uh is useful still yeah absolutely man yeah yeah

really it really uh helped shape how i see things how how I see people, you know, how I see myself. And it really made me aware that there's so much going on at any given time. And part of it is, you know, what you're paying attention to and what you're listening to and how you're listening, you know, there's just so much happening. How is your brain getting fucked and how are you reacting to it? Yeah, you know. What are you bringing to the table that's exactly good you know aware that everybody's putting their baggage on the table right size of the luggage and you know there's there's there's there's just so much happening i know

and and things happen in a moment that could have uh implications that uh that in repercussions that go on for a lifetime you You know, I teach. Yeah. And, you know, when I was in school, I did something called small group processes. Yeah. You know, you just put it in a room. It was kind of very counterculture for me,

especially at that time. Yeah. We'd drink wine and, you know, just, anyways. But, you know, we had these phrases. I had a beautiful professor there, this guy, Bob Chin, who I've learned a ton from. What did he teach? Yeah, he taught psych and social psych. You know, you had these phrases, the here and now, listen to yourself listen.

Yeah. You know, all these things that just help you gauge where you are all the time. Right, right. You know, my friends would, yeah, anyways, it's just, and it's stuff that I try to instill in my students because it's helped me. Yeah, right. About seeing the layering, seeing the depth, seeing the complicated shit and the simple. And you teach writing?

Yeah. Where at? At Columbia. So when you're at BU, you graduated with a psychology degree? I did. And where'd you go to grad school? At BU. You did?

I did. For psychology? I did. God, you went the full run. Yeah, man. It was a mistake in some ways. But I applied to go to these other places, Michigan and all these places. went the full run yeah man it was uh it was a mistake in some ways you know but uh you know i applied to go to these other places michigan and all these places i think i was gonna end up

at university chicago what was the plan uh i didn't really have a plan you know it was the one thing that you know kind of captivated me at some level you know i had some interest in and the plan was i guess at the time i would have done that. And, you know, you get these organizational behavioral jobs at Kodak or something. I don't know what these companies were. Oh, really? So you had workshops and. Oh, right. So it was sort of.

You were going to. There was a career there of a consultant career. Yeah, that's exactly. That's the word. Not a do office hours career. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. No, I wasn't thinking about teaching.

Where'd you. You grew up around here. Not around here so much. But, maybe. Yeah. No, I wasn't thinking about teaching. You grew up around here? Not around here so much, but, you know, west of LA, I guess. Like how far west? You know, I grew up in Santa Monica in Venice, and then we moved to like right off Robertson Boulevard in Beverlywood. And what was the childhood? What was your old man in? I didn't really, never knew my father.

Oh, yeah? Him and my mom got divorced when I was three, I guess. Three? Yeah. And that was it? He was out? Yeah, he was out. Yeah, he was out.

So it was just you and your mom? Yeah. Oh, yeah, me and my mom, my two sisters. Got two sisters. Same dad? Same father. Yeah, he just split on everybody. He didn't split.

My mom, she left him, I guess. Okay. I don't know exactly what happened, but they got divorced. Yeah. He didn't go smoke a cigarette or anything. Right, right, right. And you guys just, you grew up in that part of town. We did.

We did. Are the sisters older? We're all more or less the same age, but they're younger than me. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're all like nine months apart. Oh, really? Yeah, something like that. And and what they get involved in what they uh my sister sharon is she writes plays every now and then she uh teaches uh my sister anna works for dwp you know department water and power so when you were coming up you know when you were you know going to high school

and shit what do you think compelled you to this uh you know research of the human brain it's it's it's it's just from reading you know we didn't have a television no no on purpose uh i guess so i guess so but we just never had a television like for very spare moments yeah but you know for most of the time growing up we never had a television so my mom just had a library and just you know all of us just read the all of it yeah you know and uh yeah what was it good taste thankfully so yeah yeah yeah like what were you getting oh we got heller we got bellow we got up dyke you know we got a ton of shit really yeah my mom's an artist and so we just just a whole broad of stuff so it was like sort of like she was a creative person interested in in that absolutely she's interested in everything so uh she a painter yes she is um

and she's smart as fuck i mean my mom's insanely smart so it's uh what was the guidance what was she obviously encouraging to creative life yeah she didn't she never encouraged but she never discouraged right so she never she didn't tell never discouraged. Right. So she never, she didn't tell us much. You know, we didn't have a ton of rules. Yeah. We never had curfew or anything.

So she didn't tell us much, but everything was there. Yeah. And she just kind of dragged us to places, you know? Art openings. Yeah,

and just never censored us. So, you know, we'd gone to all these movies, you know, since forever. Did she engage you on them? Yeah, because I think you know we're we're not very talkative but amongst us we're very talkative and you know all of us have our little theories about shit so uh so yeah we talk about this stuff because i know in the book the sellout that like there is the you know the

thing is just infused just you know outside of the story yeah the thing is infused, you know, the thing is just infused, you know, outside of the story. Yeah. The thing is infused with, you know, a depth of sort of cultural criticism. Yeah. Intellectual assessments of film theory. Yeah. You know, semantics. Yeah.

It's interesting because all through it, all the characters seem at moments, you know, incredibly informed and sophisticated intellectually sort of yeah yeah i mean i think they don't make many distinguished they're not very judgmental about it they're shit that they like and they're shit that they don't but it's not like they like highbrow they like lowbrow it's all fused that's what i mean it's all fused that you have like sort of like you know like street dialogue but then all of a sudden out of nowhere you know you've got truffaut references yeah i mean it's just it's just language man it's uh it's just yeah yeah it's just language but it's thought yo absolutely yeah absolutely so when you didn't start i mean this is your what is your second novel or third novel

fourth fourth but you started like the other place I think we could have crossed paths, but maybe not, maybe on the street, was I was on the Lower East Side from, like, 87, 88 to, like, 92, 93. I was on 2nd between A and B. Okay. I mean, that's where I live. I live on 2nd. Now? Between B and C. So you saw all the drug stuff. I saw, yeah, where I live. I live on 2nd. Now? Between B and C.

So you saw all the drug stuff. I saw, yeah, the end. Yeah, yeah. Like it was before Giuliani had taken over and there was a lot of drugs on the street. That was it. That was the street. The world saved the robots. Yes.

Right around the corner. Yeah. I never went to that shit, and I was trying to not do drugs. So I saw a lot of the behavior. There was a doorway next to my house. I know where you lived then. Yeah, I know exactly where you lived. Like there was this weird.

It had that line outside. Exactly. I know exactly where you lived. Yeah, there was a line outside that doorway, and next to it was this weird garage full of cans. There was like this garage. I don't know what was going on there, but they were just moving recyclables in and out of it.

A little Latino guy. Yeah. The garage is still there. It's like a beer distributor shop or something like that. Right now. But there's a restaurant right there, too. There is. Like an Italian restaurant.

Yeah. That's been there for a while. Yeah, dude. When I was there, it was like insanity. Yeah. I mean, yeah. You go to New York, so you know. So I didn't live there.

I didn't get down there until like 90 maybe. I was living in East Harlem, and I did like six months in Brooklyn for a while when I first got to New York. Before Brooklyn was Brooklyn, Brooklyn. I was deep in Brooklyn. I was in Midwood. Yeah. Yeah. But you were at the New Eurekan?

Yeah, I would read at the New Eurekan. I'd read there. I'd read at St. Mark's Poetry Project. But it was poetry. Yeah, I would read at the New Yorican. I'd read there. I'd read at St. Mark's Poetry Project. But it was poetry. Yeah, it was. And what was it that, because at that time, it seemed to me that that slam poetry thing, that New Yorican, that I knew guys who were innately funny, that there was a stand-up element to some of it, I felt.

I knew a guy who was a stand-up that actually went into it. Yeah. Because it seemed to give him more freedom yeah than comedy yeah what was your yeah i was just reading you know i'm not very performative really you're just reading i just read you know i just read i mean especially when the place first opened you know there were a lot of disgruntled poets you know, that felt shut out of like St. Mark's. I don't know these poetry wars, but. There are though, right?

There was. There wasn't anything. You know, and it was just an open place. It was nice. You know, Creeley would be there. Just a ton of people would be there. Bob Creeley was there? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Did he pass away? He did. He did. And so, so for me, it was just New York had a scene. New York had its own thing you drink and talk shit and you know right it was fun but i mean i think like really early on i had a friend

of mine saying yeah you know they're gonna have velvet ropes out here very soon like you could see that happening to the poetry yeah and it became you know it's the thing i realized i was just writing you know and it's nothing wrong with it. But like your friend, he's a stand up. It was it was so performative and so all these other things. Yeah. And then MTV got hold of it. Like Maggie Estep.

Yeah, absolutely. Was doing it. They were adding music to it sometimes. I mean, nothing wrong with that. But that was me. You were more of a purist. Not a purist. I just read, you know, I'm kind of shy shy i look down and i just read you know and uh and i for me i think it's important

for let the page the words do all the work you know right and um and let that do the selling you know whatever and so the other stuff i just i'm just uncomfortable doing it so but so you're like in terms of reading poetry out loud yeah yeah, the words got to do it, but the pauses got to do it. Yeah. I kind of just blurted through it. Like I was uncomfortable, you know. Why'd you do it?

Because I think it was part of the job, you know. Being a poet. Yeah. Yeah. And so I remember when I first got to New York and trying to figure out how to write, I saw Poets Magazine, some magazine. After you finished graduate school. So I didn't finish grad school. So like midway through, I did my third year and I was like not studying for my qualifying exams. And I was just like, yeah, I really don't want to do this. You know, and I was talking to my friend, Ruth Sod, actually.

I don't know if you knew Ruth. I think it's possible that you guys, okay. Maybe. Yeah. Anyways, we were just walking down, I think we were on Beacon. And I just remember saying to her one day, you know what? I think I want to write. And it just clicked. And I was like, yeah, I'm out.

And it was a good thing because I was- And you hadn't written. Not really. Not really. But I think I had this slow thing about how much i enjoyed writing you know and it but it was just uh it was slow you know and the thing was you know i mean the good thing about boston had all those great used bookstores and these great used record stores you know and um i was just reading everything i wasn't supposed to be reading

you know and like what oh man just there was a bookstore i think it was on beacon so i would just dive in there man and ee cummins reading all this you know yeah all this kind of stuff and the beats play part no not then so much i mean i had read ginsburg and karawack a little bit you know, and I'm aware of it and stuff, but that stuff came more into my sensibilities when I moved to New York, you know, and Alan was my teacher for a while. Alan. Yeah. Ginsburg.

Really? Yeah. And so, uh. Where? At Brooklyn College. Yeah. So I, when I left BU, I just went to Brooklyn College and got my MFA. I didn't know what else, how you were supposed to do it.

And at the time there might've been 20, 25 places where you got your MFA writing or something. So I was either going to come back to California or go to New York. And so I ended up getting in Brooklyn College. And so I showed up kind of never having written anything except for these little poems I kind of squealed out to send for the application. And so how'd you get in? I have no idea.

Who knows? Who knows? And Alan was there towards the end of his life, was he? No, it wasn't quite towards the end. the application so how'd you get in have no idea you know who knows you know who knows and alan was there towards the end of his life um no it wasn't quite towards the end i mean he was up there but um so this is you know late 80s i guess wow that must be like his uh you know he's one of these guys i sort of have a you know i mythologized yeah when i was younger and you know and i had alan's books and and uh i've got a lot of the little, the ones that he wrote in the big collection.

And he, what was he like as a teacher? He was very gracious. Yeah. You know. Yeah, he was very gracious. He was, like, he, you know, opened his doors, and he told really good stories. Yeah.

And. Yeah, he certainly had. Yeah, yeah. And. What'd you learn from him yeah you know i think the thing i really learned from alan is um is precision you know he was so big on clarity and precision and editing and wasted breath and all this kind of stuff and uh i mean i learned a lot and and and not so much from him but a thing that i sort of got at the at brooklyn like these basic things yeah which was like you kind of have to be fearless a little bit you know in terms of

exposing yourself or what it's your choice right for me it was just not censoring myself you know i'm not like a very taking a personal right you know i don't talk about myself very much you know even though what i write is very personal yeah it's not so much about me necessarily. But yeah, just – yeah, I had another teacher there, Tucker Farley, who was just – she was nuts. But she really just pushed how we think. And I had another guy, Lou Asikoff, who was close with Alan, who really encouraged me. Because when I was there, after the first year, the professor told me to stop writing. I got like a C plus in poetry.

Really? Yeah. We sat down. She was like, yeah, I really think this isn't for you. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But thank goodness I had a guy who I'm still very close with today. It was Professor Lou Asikoff, who we used to meet with, you know, once a week for an hour and read my poems alongside me.

You know, so I told Lou, yeah, I guess I'm quitting. I guess I suck. You know, and Lou was like, he was beautiful, man. He was, he told me, you're doing something that no one else is doing. You know, you're on to something. Really? Yeah. It was so helpful.

I can't tell you how helpful he was to me. And he told me a thing that really slowed me down, which was people are going to learn how to read you. Because I'd been struggling with this. You know, what am I supposed to do? What language? You know, like all these things that you talked about before. Yeah.

This fusion of language. Yeah. You know, who needs to understand what before, this fusion of language. Who needs to understand what and all this kind of stuff. I'm really struggling with that. And so Lou told me, yeah, people are going to learn to read you. Don't listen to her. Just come back and keep it going.

And it's funny because at the end of that year, I'd written a poem, finally a poem that I was like, I kind of like this. And there was a kid in the class and I remember reading that poem and the kid was like, this, I don't understand this. I don't get it. Blah, blah, blah. This doesn't make any sense. None of this is, this is the worst poem I've ever read. You know? Oh my God.

And so that next year. Yeah. We had Allen Ginsberg. Yeah. And so Ginsberg, we had the same class, just different teacher. Right. And Ginsberg comes in, he goes, let's start from the top. Bring in your best poem.

We're going to start from there. So I brought that poem. It was my best poem. Yeah. And I read that same poem. Yeah. And that same kid was like, oh, Paul's a genius. This is an allusion to this.

This is a reference, you know, this whole thing. And I had been really struggling about what words kind of, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I was just like flat. I mean, he, I didn't have to say anything. Like he pretty much got it in the way that he got it. And I remember asking him after class, I said, dude, what happened, man? You hated that poem. And he just was like, ah, you know, I spent three months in New York, you know, over the

summer. And it just said, opened his head, opened his ears, opened his eyes. Right. You know? Yeah. And it, but for me, it wasn't like, yeah, whatever I do is good, but it was this thing of just, you know, there's so much happening, you know, all this is shifting. You know,

and it's like something, you know, that you learn in psych about like, everyone's in a different place at a different time. You know, there's just so much movement. Right. In terms of your political awareness,

in terms of everything, everybody's just in different places. Yeah. You can always get your mind blown. Yeah. Yeah. And you can always blow back, you know,

it's just, you know, I think people think of this consciousness as this progression somehow, you can always get your mind blown. Yeah, yeah. And you can always blow back, you know? It's just, you know, I think people think of this consciousness as this progression somehow, you know? And also poetry, I think, as a form is something that it does grow with you, you know, that you can read a poem and be completely outside of it. Yeah. And then years later come back to it and have a completely different experience with it. I mean, that's like anything. That's like a good joke. That's like anything. Sure.

You know, so good painting, you know, it's, you change, you know. Yeah. Well, jokes are a little more descriptive. Like, you know, I mean, you might not think something's funny, but like, right. I mean, I get what you're saying about a turn of phrase or a joke, but like sometimes poems have a code to them. Jokes are not that coded. You don't think so.

What do you mean by code, I guess? Well, I mean that, you know, joke in and of itself, like a story or a joke to them. Jokes are not that coded. You don't think so? What do you mean by code, I guess? Well, I mean that joke in and of itself, like a story or a joke. Sure. Unless it's some sort of Hasidic tale that has a cryptic ending. You should at least know the structure of that's where the funny is. And if I'm not getting the funny, it's usually because you don't know something. Yeah, but that's the same with the- I guess so. I the same with the same okay it's like again it's that baggage yeah no like I guess you bring it to yeah yeah so uh so what Alan think of that poem yeah I think Alan liked it I mean I think Alan um he

saw something in me I hope you know I think you know I kind of can romanticize all this stuff but he did a nice thing with is he did this, he did this speaking series where he brought in all these black male poets. Yeah. I think I was kind of the only black kid in poetry. Yeah. I'm pretty sure I was. Yeah.

But anyway, he brought in these guys, Quincy Troop, Amiri Baraka, this other cat, Kofi Natambu. And those were guys, it was fun to listen to. Like, I didn't agree with hardly anything they said but it was really interesting to hear them talk about their processes and how they thought just where they they're they're fit in that world like what do you mean you didn't agree with yeah uh so i remember one guy you know alan because you know alan brings all this environmental stuff to the table he brought so much stuff to the table so i remember him talking to Quincy about just the world, just the physical environment. And I remember Quincy going, yeah, that's your problem.

I just was like, whoa, that's so weird. You know, there's a lot of stuff, you know? Yeah. But it was really refreshing for me, you know? And I just opened my head up a little bit. But was that the first time you really came in contact with black poets? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

I mean, you know, I didn't know too many people that wrote outside of school. Yeah. So, like, Amir would invite me to his things. They weren't for me, you know. Right. But. Why? It just, they weren't.

I'm not a group person. Right. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not an ideologue like that. Right. I'm not like writing is fighting necessarily. It might be, but I don't think of it that way.

So that's just stuff. But I respect the intellect. I've learned so much from Amiri. He's a really good writer. And those guys were open. Quincy really helped me. It's funny. I think about that because I guess that's where I met Quincy.

Quincy gave me all these fucking great readings back in the day that you know i didn't know you could make five thousand dollars for reading some poems you know in 1995 you know i didn't know you could do that you know so quincy was really helpful in that in the in that kind of stuff and just you know good guys yeah willing to share sure so yeah and it's very specific and it's a creative endeavor you know like poetry i mean yeah they're good guys but i mean it's like it's not creative endeavor. You know, like poetry. I mean, yeah, they're good guys, but I mean, it's like, it's not a huge world. No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Which was good for me at the time.

I mean, yeah. And when did you read, like, because at the end of the book, you know, you, I mean, like, I'm not well-versed in much of anything. It's all sort of random. But, you know, you do, you go out of your way to talk about William E. cross jr's piece yeah yeah yeah the negro to black conversion experience in black world 20 july 1971 yeah i read that in

grad school yeah i don't remember yeah well what would when you were in grad school when you were an undergrad you know when you talk about baggage or you talk about, you know, personal baggage or growing into it, how much were you involved in educating yourself about race? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think different places at different times. You know, so, you know, I kind of tend to hang out with who's ever close, you know. Proximity, it doesn't matter who they are. They're nearby.

I'm kind of lazy. So, you know, if you're in that sphere, then we're going to hang out, you know, or't matter who they are they're nearby i'm kind of lazy so yeah you know if you're in that sphere then we're gonna hang out you know or every attempt to at least so you know i had a crew of kids you know this kind of lived on my floor yeah you know and when you were a kid no at bu oh yeah you know and uh same when i was a kid you know i hung out with the kids on the block so uh yeah for the most part but i had other friends i guess through my mom and stuff but you know so the the race thing is always there it's you know it's everything's always everywhere so that was always there but you know for the most part of undergrad most of my friends were

white i guess you know except cats that i played basketball with i used to referee games and stuff like intramural games so you had a lot of people yeah and then you know uh i don't know if you remember all this but like you know all the divestiture movement out of south africa and stuff i don't know if you remember with silver you know that he had invested right there was protest was a part of all these movements that's right yeah yeah so i mean i just look on the periphery of that kind of stuff leading those protests against yeah yeah and then um yeah it's not like you know then i had another professor at bu um althea smith who was uh she's one of the few black professors that i had there but who was you know really doing

interesting research and stuff around race and all this it's always kind of cool for me to just think about this stuff yeah and then so like you know the thing I was like, at the time, I guess people would say, oh, racism, racism, racist, racist. And I just was like, what does that mean? What are we talking about here? Yeah. And then so I was trying to come up with a scale, like this kind of Richter scale of racism.

That's a 7.5. Because I was trying to, because we use that word to mean so much and it's and i don't know how you measure these things yeah it's not like you know you know like i don't know that's the best i can do is come up with this richter scale of racism so in the sense of measuring it mean like you know what is essentially hatred and what is essentially ignorance and what is essentially impolite or what? Not that. Like, just in terms of impact.

Yeah. On you. Yeah. So, I remember I used to work at Trader Joe's. And I always remember working at Trader Joe's. Where? National and Wesleyan. It's right near the house.

Like one of the early Trader Joe's? Yeah, Trader Joe's. I think it's Trader Joe's number seven. This is when there were no Trader Joe's. Right. I remember that. Right, right, right. So, yeah. Yeah. So, I remember that. It was a long time ago. Right, right, right. So, yeah. Yeah.

So you worked there. Yeah. And I remember, I don't know, doing the icebox or whatever. And I remember a black woman coming in the store. And the white kid I was working with going, hey, do you think she's pretty? And I just went, wait a minute. That was just so weird for me. Yeah.

Like, why is he asking me that? Yeah, yeah. Is that racist? You know, I didn race? You know, I didn't know what it was necessarily, you know, but it's like all these little things, you know,

I'm just, and how did you judge that? How did I judge that from him? He was one of the kids who I actually didn't know very well. But so I'm like, you know, then I don't know, I must've been 18,

19 or something. I don't know how old I was. And I was like, well, you know, people come in there all the time. Yeah. And you never go, hey, hey, is she this?

Yeah. You know, you just tell me you think she's that. Right. It's like, you know, what is that about? Like, what are you, you know. That switch. Yeah. And I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing.

And this is before any psychology. Yeah. Yeah. I guess so. Or very early on in that. Yeah. And just all, I mean, all these, just a ton of little things. Uh-huh.

And not so little sometimes yeah but just trying to figure out like where's this definite i mean it's these things all these words that i never know what they mean i never know like what are some other ones satire pride all these kind of things you know i just i don't know what these words mean you know um i know what they mean in the in the context yeah But they're so fuzzy for me. Satire is kind of fuzzy. Yeah, absolutely. And like when people use these words, you know, like, are they self-serving?

Are you using them as shields? Are they, you know, it's just. Where does pride come into it? Yeah. So pride's like one of the things. I mean, I lived in Germany for a while. Really? Where? In Berlin.

What year was that? That was like 96, 97. Huh. Yeah. What brought you there? Didn't have any money. So I went to Berlin. was like 96, 97. Huh. Yeah. What brought you there? Didn't have any money, so I went to Berlin. Had a beautiful, it was fine. How long?

About a year and a half, I guess. Really? Maybe a little bit less. Uh-huh. That must have been interesting. Yeah, it was. I didn't go outside very much. Didn't engage with the culture?

Yeah, I was going through a lot of stuff personally, and I had a hard time there being stared at, being dragged around. Were you depressed? I'm always depressed. So that goes without saying. Really? Yeah. So yeah, my first novel had come out.

There was a bunch of stuff going on, and I just hadn't had any friends I had met in a really organic way. Right. Anyways. And I just hadn't had any friends I had met, like, in a really organic way. Right. Anyways. So, you know, I just listened to them talk. Everyone's so goddamn smart there. And I remember people saying, you know, they weren't allowed to say, I'm proud to be German. I was like, oh, wow, that's wild.

You know, it's, like, almost illegal to say that. Really? Yeah, because, like, what does that mean? You know? And it just made me think about this black pride all this kind of shit that i just i don't know what that means like is that like a constant or are you allowed to be proud for just five seconds and then the other seven you know five seconds you don't give a fuck and what are the things that you feel are black

embarrassments or german embarrassings like how does like what's the equation like where's this how does this pride needle work, you know? Well, I guess when it's, right, I understand what you're saying. And I think that when it's used in that broad sense that it is about kind of strengthening or diminishing an identity. Yeah. Or, you know, I mean, I understand, like like the need to self-affirm like that sometimes. But, you know, that also comes with a cost.

And it also comes with this kind of hierarchical kind of sense, you know. How do you mean? You know, so I'm African-American. If I have black pride, whatever that is, what does that do for you as a white person or you as a California pride? You know, like how do all these prides work together? Because you're just not just one thing. There's just so much shit happening California pride. You know, like how do all these prides work together? Because you're just not just one thing. There's just so much

shit happening. Sure. You know? Sure. It's a loaded and broad idea. Yeah. And this is not

going to make any sense, but I remember being on ComAv once and with a bunch of black kids and there was something happening. These two kids

got into a fight. There was this kid and he was like, oh, I'm so embarrassed as a black person. And I just remember looking at him going wait why are you embarrassed this has nothing to do with you but this weird kind of collective thing yeah that i just i never i don't know how to process it right so well what was the fight was it within the group you were

with there were just two people you know doing something and he felt embarrassed as a black guy because two other black people were doing something that he was embarrassed but i just i didn't understand that oh oh that we're all represented yeah yeah i just i didn't understand that yeah and so yeah you know i saw this documentary about like the oi movement in in uh in the uk yeah and this skinhead guy's talking. And they're like, well, what appealed to you about the movement? And he goes, yeah, you know, I had an embarrassment about being working class. And that music, that scene. And he wanted to say pride. And then he stopped himself because he went, no, it's not about pride.

But I just wasn't embarrassed about it anymore. And I was like, yeah, that's exactly it. You know? Yeah. And I was like, that's exactly it. For me, there's a distinction that's exactly it. You know? Yeah. And I was like, that's exactly it. For me, there's a distinction there somehow. Yeah. You know?

What was the OI movement? That's just skinhead music, you know, punk music. Yeah, yeah. And just, you know, this kind of thing. Which has offshoots and sort of evolved. Yeah, some nationalistic offshoots. It just has some kind of music. It has some alternative.

It has a ton of offshoots. That's interesting. Not be embarrassed. Just not being embarrassed. And shameless in a way. Yeah, absolutely. You know, like he was talking about like how he would be embarrassed about telling people where he was from and all this kind of thing then at some point he just kind of didn't give a fuck you know but it wasn't about necessarily having pride in being from the

place but not being embarrassed about this is an interesting distinction from what's interesting that that that you glean that information that what delivered the goods uh in terms of of how to wrap your brain around some element of pride was you know delivered by you know something that is really uh uh identified as a nationalistic uh you know you know somewhat white supremacist movement yeah i mean but in germany i had many friends who would say these things but there was interesting ways that sometimes made me uncomfortable for whatever reason, but that they did show their national pride. Yeah. You know, might not be flag waving then, but there were things, hey, I'm not allowed to

say this, but X, Y, and Z. Yeah. You know, and I don't really, really, and then, you know, they were still like, you know, the wall had just really been down. And so there was this interesting thing about what German pride was. You know, I had some East German friends with their, I'm going to use the word pride in being East German. But, you know, this is how these identities shift and how quickly identity gets created. Yeah, yeah.

And just at the time, you know, I wrote a bunch of stuff about it. at the time, I wrote a bunch of stuff about it, but at the time it reminded me a lot about what I had read about the Reconstruction era here in the States. You know, and African-American-ness and German-ness. I don't know, there was just a lot of similarities for me, really. Really? Yeah. In terms of the identification of genocide. Yeah. And having no real way out of not being identified with that and the the reconstruction in the in the the black community being identified with this indentured servitude and and and moving out from that yeah you know in a sense of trying to

reconstruct a new kind of national identity. Yeah. Right. And yeah. And with some things that initially were good and then, you know, the South had these things that they want to do and Hey, we need to bring back segregation. We need to draw these lines back, you know, just how identity gets shaped.

And just, it was just interesting for me. And just for me, like the heaviness of just that weight that, that I'm German, I'm black. And it comes with so much heft, you know, these words. And it just, there was a lot of similarities there. I mean,, I'm black, and it comes with so much heft, you know, these words.

And it just, there was a lot of similarities there. I mean, I joke about them, but, you know, there was just a lot of similarity there for me. And you don't have any control over what you're born into and, you know, and how you sort of move through your life and realize the weight of that stuff. That's your own thing. Yeah, yeah, sure.

I mean, you know, you get to figure out how you want to cope, you know. And we were talking about my mom earlier, you know. I just saw my sister yesterday. And we're so appreciative that our mom never told us you, like, I never had any conversations with her about being black or any of this when I was young. And she just kind of left it up to us to figure out how we wanted to cope, how we wanted to learn the social mores and stuff. And we just left it up to us.

And so, yeah, my whole family is weird about this stuff. We don't really think about these things in the way that a lot of people do. Is that a plus? Yeah, I think it is a plus for us. Because neither of us us the word my sister used the other day was boundaries we don't have a ton of boundaries about shit at least we think we don't right and uh and i think that's definitely a plus yeah so it seems like you know when i you

know when i got the sellout so i start reading this book and you know the it just opens with it just it just like you're right in it there's a dude handcuffed to a chair, right? Yeah, yeah. Waiting to be, you know, to stand before the Supreme Court. Yeah, yeah. And there's weed involved and there's a lot of things going on. Now, you know, moving in from what we were talking about and in terms of how you're talking about, you know, identifying the meaning of these things. Yeah, it seems like this book is sort of a reckoning with it. Yeah, I guess so.

What does reckoning mean? I mean that it is about race. I guess. I mean, yeah. I mean, he is who he is. I am who I am. So it just shapes. It always is about race.

So it's like it's always. So, yeah. I mean, but am who I am. So it just shapes, it's all, it always is about race. But when. So it's like. Oh, right. It's always, you know. Right. So, yeah, I mean, but these are things that are important to him. These are things that, factors that have shaped how he lives his life. Yeah, Bon Bon, whatever his name is.

Yeah. You know. And so, yeah, of course. What is his whole name, the main character? It doesn't have a whole, I think in my head there's a name, you know, his last name is me. Yeah. So.

Yeah, I was like, I was looking for it. I'm like, I'm about to talk to him, but I can't remember the character's name. So it's like i was looking for it i'm like i'm about to talk to him but i can't remember the character's name so it's not my fault no not at all not at all we get we get foy cheshire we get the old man's name we get a lot of people's name around him but he doesn't have a name you know he's got a nickname and he's got his surname but he doesn't really have like a christian name but when you're like when you're writing poetry and you say things like you know you you you're crafting these words, the words are important, and early on you're writing things that were not making sense to people. And you got the support early on from one guy who said that's because you're doing something that people are going to have to come to.

Yeah. But you're committing to these words. Yeah, absolutely. And you're thinking about them. Absolutely. yeah absolutely and you're thinking about absolutely so you know these you know these there's definitely poetry in this book obviously but there there are also big ideas that are driving the narrative yeah you know specifically you have this you know this odd you know black character yeah who wants to segregate the schools and reinstate slavery in his neighborhood sort of

he doesn't really do it right but that's the thing it's the power words. You know, he never segregates anything because it's already fucking segregated. Right. So that was the fun of it for me. Yeah. Is how do you segregate something that's already segregated? Right. Where you don't have any white people anywhere near the place. Yeah.

For the most part. Right. You know, how do you do that? How do you build in that notion, that consciousness of segregation? Yeah. So that was really fun for me. Yeah. You know, how do you have a slave that's not a slave?

You know what I mean? And how do you have a masochistic slave who actually enjoys being beat? You know, like all these kind of things are fun for me to just to, I don't know, reckoning is not the word that I would use because it feels like that there's a finality to that. For me, it's just a rendering, not a reckoning. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. You weren't looking to make a point

no not at all no no not at all not at all i just what's the point to be made you know it's like yeah yeah yeah i'm not trying to change anyone's mind or anything make you think a little bit make you feel make you tingle make you laugh i don't know laugh whatever how long did it take you to write this book it took like five years to write that book man it took a long long time how what's your process i just had these ideas you know so i had an idea for the hominy character because i had like this thing i love the little rascals the old suede yeah so i love the little rascals yeah and i always thought of like who was next in line you know how it went like farina stymie i don't know did you watch the little rascals sure alfalfa yeah but you know like for the black guys it was farina then stymie they I don't know. Did you walk to the little Roscoe? Sure, sure. Alfalfa. Yeah. But you know, like for the black guys, it was Farina, then Stymie.

They kind of bring him in slowly and then they bring Buckwheat in slowly. And I was like, well, who was Buckwheat's understudy? Like who was that next person who has the racial zeitgeist change, just missed his chance at stardom? Yeah. You know, like who was that? The next black kid. Yeah, exactly.

So I just, I just love the phrase Buckwheat's understudy. So I had that. That's all you had? No, I had a couple of things. Yeah, exactly. So I just love the phrase Buckwheat's understudy. So I had that. That's all you had? No, I had a couple of things. I had that. I had the sense of that neighborhood, you know, this place that's California. Dickens. Dickens.

You know, that's agrarian at the same time. That's whatever the inner city is supposed to be. You know, all these kind of things. But was once a farming community. Yeah, sort of. Right. And so I had that. And I had this kind of notion about segregation, but I didn't really know what it was.

But I knew I wanted to kind of figure out this idea of what segregation is. For yourself? Not for myself, but just to render it like in this contemporary kind of way. Yeah. To talk about something that exists that we don't really acknowledge very much. Right. You know, I was talking with a friend of mine, Mexican-American guy who runs a magazine called Zizava, Oscar. Yeah.

And I was talking to one of my students who was interning, a black kid named Chris. And Chris was talking, we were drinking, and Chris was looking at me and Oscar's about my age, you know, late 40 or so. Yeah. And Chris goes, oh, you guys must have had it so hard. And me and Oscar looked at him, what are you talking about? He's like, oh, all the racism you guys must have faced. And me and Oscar just started laughing. And we both like almost in unison said to him, oh, no, you had it.

You have it way worse than we have it. You know, because there's just a. What is he? Chris is an African-American kid, you know, from Northern California. Smart kid, you know because there's just uh what is he chris is the african-american kid from you know from northern california smart kid you know and uh and it was interesting to hear oscar me and oscar say this thing at the same time you know just give this improvised riff i know you guys have it worse than we had it yeah because they have a they feel a limitation of always having to say the right thing and not being able to acknowledge anything because it means that something,

you know, younger people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh,

and for us, that was like, yeah, no, we can just spout and complain and bitch and moan. And you guys aren't allowed to bitch and moan really. Cause then something's wrong with you. Right.

You're bitching. Cause everything's in place for you to, you know, be whoever you want to be. So anyways, and it was interesting and it just made me shape about just this this idea of post-racial all this fucking crap you know but i never again these are words that i don't know what the fuck they mean you know well clearly they they they seem to mean less than they

might have thought to have meant initially yeah but it's just with a lot of stuff you know and so so you think that things are relatively unchanging? I think, no, I think that things do change. But I think, you know, we as people remain the fucking same. You know, always have remained the same. And I remember reading the old WPA slave narratives, you know, where they went around to these living slaves and to keep artists employed. And they interviewed these living slaves. What was it like? Dun, dun, dun.

Tell me about your life. And I remember reading some of those things and listening to these, depends, you could tell who the interviewer was by how they were talking, what words they used and how they, anyways. But I remember being blown away how a lot of the slaves was, you know, these niggas, these, this. And I was like, oh my God, I thought black people started saying niggas in the 70s. You know what I mean?

But you just realize how old all this shit is yeah you know and it helps in the you know it's a weird way how i think about la yeah you know all these words that just don't die rad gnarly you know all these words you know so yeah and um for me it's like more about the timelessness and about like how do we measure progress i'm not saying there is no progress uh-huh you know but it's like how do we measure it you know like okay is obama progress yes no how you know is the civil rights act progress you know all this kind of stuff for me it's just it's fun to play with and when something happens like what's happening now in our culture how does that zap your brain so what's now like what's this what that we shift the shift from

obama to a reaction like trump yeah i mean these shifts happen you know i mean there's a reason that we've you know that the shift went from obama to trump and not you know obama to paul ryan or obama to consign it you know there's a reason why they picked this guy and uh what those reasons are exactly i don't really know you know how my ideas yeah and um and and these things happen again back to germany like this thing of people feeling censored even though they aren't fucking censored but they feel censored somebody's telling them that they're censored and we were talking earlier about like you know the when do you have the the lattice work for a totalitarian state yeah you

know and and i think you know we're so used but these things break down you know hitler was fucking elected they elected that fucker twice yeah you know i mean yeah and it's about this breakdown of like how these things break down and that's the stuff that really gets scary for me, you know, because you adapt so easily to losing things. Yeah. You know, people, your rights, your accessibility. I mean, you adapt. What do you think that's from? I don't know.

That's from a lot of stuff. I think a lot of it is, you know, it's hard to acknowledge things that if you want to change you're actually going to have to change your behavior you're actually going to have to shift your life around you know and make some real sacrifices you know and it's so hard for people to notice this stuff you know there's just you you have a kind of um you know you have a kind of kinetic energy in your life that you're just you know you don't want to disrupt that flow you know and yeah and it's hard to admit that these people fucking hate me yeah you know and especially people that you've been around for so long

yeah and this person who was your neighbor all of a sudden you're this person's worst enemy i remember when when talking to a friend about oJ being acquitted. Yeah. And she was talking to somebody, a woman who was a lawyer. And she was so angry, you know, this miscarriage of justice. And she went, yeah, I got to rethink my stance on affirmative action on all this kind of shit. And I went, what does that fucking have to do with OJ getting off? Yeah. But it's this way of associating African-American-ness, this country. Whose country is it?

You know, and the way that good people become bad also, you know, my wife tells a story about, you know, her step grandfather grew up in Hamburg, you know, in the early thirties and they had this teacher, you know, this beautiful guy who all the students liked and they would ask him, oh, so what about Hitler? And he'd be like, ah, don't worry about that. There's, you know, nothing to worry about. You know know they can't do any of this stuff none of it makes sense you know but then one day he came in and he went class there's a fresh wind blowing you know like at some point the rhetoric got to him there was something in him yeah that you know and and

you know my wife's grandfather's jewish and he has to rethink about, fuck, he doesn't even see me. You know, you just, these things happen. You know, these things happen. It's not like, bing, you press a button and then everybody's a fucking fascist. But, you know, these things click. And some of it's fear. I mean, it clicks for a ton of reasons. You know, it's like, I just want to be on the winning side.

You know, it clicks for a ton of reasons. And for me, like, there's an interesting thing about, like, who's the sellout? Like, you know, what's the sellout? Right. You know, and that notion is in any kind of thing, you know? And a friend of mine gave me a book. It's called The Directory of Uncle Tom's. It's a fucking beautiful book.

Yeah. Really well researched. When was that about? Oh, God, that book must be from the mid-90s, I think. Maybe a little bit later. When was that about? Oh God, that must, that book must be from the mid 90s, I think. Maybe a little bit later. Who wrote it?

I don't know. I can, I don't think anybody's name is on it. Oh really? Yeah. And it's such a good book. So you name anybody,

Urkel, anybody, any black person who's ever done anything in life, they're in that book because at some level, this is where this person

has sold. It's just, this, like whose sensibility, like whose sense of what blacknesses are we talking about? I just, I love that book. It's really funny. It's really well researched too. It's a really good book. But it's like, you know, but for me, it's like these things aren't like just tied in

being black. Right. So like we were talking about the guy doesn't have a name. And so I had this, a line that I liked in my head was like, you know, all the Supreme Court, you know, Roe versus Wade, you know, Gore versus the United States of America, whatever these cases are. And I had a funny thing about, oh, me versus the United States of America. That's kind of funny. So I have to come up with a way of, well, how do I justify this non-existent surname? You know, so I go, yeah, they were the me's. And then I use all these things. But these examples for me, which are really interesting about mostly these Jewish guys changing their names and doing all this kind of stuff.

Yeah. And all these comedians, all these people who I really admire. But like this, that process is so familiar to a ton of people. Right. Changing your name. Changing your name. To be more appealing. To be more appealing.

Is that a sellout? Is that, you know, like, what is, what are we talking about here? And so that's one of my favorite parts in the book, actually, you know? But it's like, who are his exemplars for these behaviors aren't always necessarily black, you know? Right. Just from all over the place. What are your biggest comedic influences?

What was the- That's a good question. But I mean, you know, the anthology, I don't have it. But when you put together an anthology of black humor, it seemed like a very, at least diverse within the forms. Yeah. Well, I think Malcolm X is hilarious. So I put in all this kind of stuff from Malcolm X. On purpose?

Yeah, absolutely on purpose. Because I just think he's fucking funny. And in addition to being a ton of other things, he's just also funny. And so there's a ton of my comedic influences. My family's pretty funny. Richard Pryor, of course, you know. Yeah, yeah. Sitting around listening to all those albums.

Franklin Ajay. Oh, yeah. Carl Reiner. You know, like when you sat down and listened to... 2000-Year-Old Man. Yeah, of course. All that kind of stuff, you know. Well, because people like I see in like some of the press on the book that they want to keep comparing it to stand-up.

And as a stand-up, this goes far beyond the capability of stand-up. I don't know if I agree with you there, to be honest. I can't believe that's a nice thing to say, I think. No, no. I mean that you have, because all stand-ups your, you know, all stand-ups use words and some stand-ups have great bits and some of those bits, you know, transcend time and are with us forever. Sure.

But in terms of nuance that can, you know, keep pushing, I'm just saying it's a lot of writing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that part is different. You're not doing bits.

Yeah. But I think- You are doing some bits, but, yeah. No, that part is different. You're not doing bits. Yeah, but I think- You are doing some bits, but- Yeah. No, but I mean, if I think of comedy that's moved me and has stayed with me, it's not about the volume. Of course not. No, no, yeah.

It's about the- The punch. Yeah, absolutely. What are some of those? So this is the thing. Yeah. You know, this concept of blackface. Blackface is bad. Blah, blah, blah. You don't do it. You don't do this thing. Yeah, there's some blackface in the book. Yeah. You know, like, you know, this concept of blackface. Blackface is bad.

Blah, blah, blah. You know, you don't do it. You don't do this thing. Yeah, there's some blackface in the book. Yeah, of course. You know? Because, I mean, there's a ton of legacies. There's this Hollywood legacy, this whole thing.

So it has to be in there. So, you know, and I remember, and you must know this. Maybe you don't. But do you remember this old Saturday Night Live skit where Billy Crystal plays this Negro plays this negro league baseball player and he's in the blackest the fucking black face yeah it's about smelt night yeah talking about it's so fucking funny yeah and it's one of those things where i guess is it racist is it not i don't fucking know but it is funny right and i remember talking to my friend daryl about this a lot and I'm like well how did he get away with this and you know somebody else does it

and you know they don't get away with it and my friend Daryl goes you know why for whatever it is is he cared about this like he there was a genuine something yeah there yeah

and he was invested in a real personal way and you can maybe argue that with you know Al Jolson maybe you could argue that but it's different it's different right and well there you know, Al Jolson, maybe. You could argue that. But it's different. It's different. Right. And, well, there are, you know, two different time periods and this whole thing.

Yeah, I think everyone always has these rules. It's this is bad, this is not bad. This is when you can laugh, when you can't laugh. All this kind of shit. And, I mean, I laugh at the wrong time all the time. Well, yeah, but that's sort of the beauty of comedy. I mean, it's like you know is it the wrong time you know what you know why is somebody laughing yeah uh you know those are

personal questions sometimes yeah absolutely absolutely and it's um and i think like in terms of like whatever billy crystal was doing and whatever al jolson was doing was that you know there was a tradition that had become you know inappropriate at some point but i i don't think that if you were to ask billy about that, he would say it was a blackface character. He might not. I don't know what the hell he would say. I don't know that he was doing minstrelsy per se. But at some point, if you put any of that black on your face, then you are identifying with the legacy.

It's the thing of how these words are tied. Do you remember Sarah Palin being on Saturday Night Live? Yeah. I was like, this is just, she's a coon. Yeah. It's the same fucking thing being forced to laugh at yourself when you really don't want to laugh. Right. But, you know.

Yeah. And, but that's your way of ingratiating yourself with your potential electorate or whatever she's doing. You know. Sure. Just these weird ways, you know? And so for me, I see these behaviors all the time in different capacities, you know, not so much always tied to race. You know, as you said, there's different traditions or different legacies, you know, but the behavior

is it crosses all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And you do that in the book all over the place. I hope so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the thing is that, you you know you have all these different threads of thought and and identity and uh and entertainment you know that you know that you turn in on themselves by having these weird behaviors of these you know these like white girls and stuff you know putting on black faces being part of this audience it's

there's so much in the book i can't remember bits and pieces neither can i so i mean like it's it's there's so much in the book i can't remember bits and pieces neither can i so i mean like it's it's pretty fascinating the the the fury of pace and imagery that you get in these things i mean when you say you took five years to do it like i can't even go through all the different tiers of i mean christ there's enough about farming fruit in there yeah to you know write a whole other piece on yeah yeah like you at some, you nerded out about farming. Yeah, yeah. It starts from these little stupid things of growing up in California, having a lemon tree in the backyard. Yeah, yeah. It just grew out of that.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, what was brought to mind was that in talking about, there was something interesting that Spike Lee with the movie bamboozled yeah that i can't ever get out of my head was to bring contemporary uh uh sort of focus production values to uh you know minstrel show yeah and and to put it on in that you know with that spectacle yeah was sort of fucking mind-blowing yeah you know i love the idea that movie god i'm fucking mind blowing. Yeah. You know, I love the idea of that movie. God, I'm usually not so critical in public of shit. But I love the idea of that movie. But the problem was, is that the minstrel show wasn't fucking funny.

So for me, it just debased the whole thing of this thing blowing up. Because I was like, I love this idea. But the thing is, how do you really give that show some punch? Right. Like some contemporary punch that would really make it work in that context. Right. So I couldn't buy the movie because the minstrelsy stuff wasn't funny. Right.

It was just kind of... It seemed like it was actually from the era. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that was probably the point he was trying to make. It was probably a discussion, but I know what you're saying. Yeah.

That it would have been more powerful movie if you had contemporary, it made it more contemporary. Yeah. Maybe, you know what I mean? You do that with these missing episodes of the, of the little rascals. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Don't talk. Yeah. You're gonna be in trouble, but it's like, no, no,

no, no. I'm teasing. But yeah, that was the fun stuff of like, how do you take this? Like, you know,

really patently racist show and make it even fucking more racist you know yeah and then like so people come up to me it's like are these real episodes you know this this whole you know but i had so much fun like really trying to amp that stuff up isn't that though that in itself is sort of a scary proposition yeah that people don't have the facility to understand something as broad as that. Yeah. And they're like, was that based on truth? Yeah. And you're like, really?

Yeah. No, but that, you know, sometimes it depends, again, like who asked those questions. Yeah. Like, where are they coming from? You know, I had a friend of mine who thought Al Jolson was black. You know, this is a very smart guy. And he was just like, whoa. But it's like, you know, where do you look?

You know, like, you know, it's like, where do you look? It's so contextual all the time. I think that's a big thing about how contextual all this shit is. Yeah. Everybody's got those weird blind sides that are surprising. And so, Little Rascals, this is Boston. Me and my friends, Kevin, would go to Beacon, because Beacon would do these revival things. The Beacon Theater? No.

Where was it? What are you talking about? It might have been in Brookline or Coolidge Corner. The Coolidge Corner Theater, yeah. And they would do these things. And I remember going, you'd be in these all white things in fucking Boston, no less.

And they'd watch these, the old Little Rascals episodes. You know, they would show Little Rascals, Three Stooges, but the uncensored versions that we never saw as kids. Right, right, yeah, yeah. Stymie like over a hot pot sweat and then wiping his brow and yeah flinging a black splotch on a white wall you

know and just all this stuff and the crowd laughing and all this kind of shit and it's just stuff that really has stayed with me obviously for a long long time because you're talking about how do we figure this out how where's you know where do why they laughing why are they laughing why am i laughing why am i not laughing all this kind of stuff what's really going on here not really going on but what's going on a little bit and just i don't know this stuff really stayed with me you know do you get any rest from your brain do i get any rest yeah i think so you know i watch television i read and so when you say this took you five years why did why the stopping starting? It wasn't stopping and starting.

I'm just really slow. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm really slow. Meticulous? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. A little bit.

I mean, this stuff is very important to me. Yeah. In terms of getting the words right? Yeah, just in terms of getting the words right. Because it's all the language, man. That's the stuff that brings me joy is hopefully that the book's written well. Yeah, yeah. And all the crap.

And it takes me a long, long, long time. And what is your question about what satire is? Yeah, I don't know, man. It's just these words that people hide behind it. Because you get to say something satirical and you don't have to. What does that mean? What are we satirizing? Am I being satirized?

It's a good thing. It's a good deflect of it's a good deflecting word like this has nothing to do with me i have no culpability it's like i am out of this yeah so it's a it's a word but it's much much more than that you know it's um you know i think about all this stuff like how to teach the satire class oh yeah yeah anyway and i called it like too soon or not soon enough you know because like this idea like when are things funny you know we're talking about this lubitsch movie you know to be or not to be yeah which is a fucking brilliant movie that of course was too close

the nazi yeah yeah you know not american enough and all these other kind of things and uh but it's a fucking classic and and how do they react how you deal with how are you thinking of the younger kids yeah so i mean they're all so fucking smart. Yeah. And so it's interesting to see, you know, the sense of right and wrong blur about like what they can do. Yeah. They're so uncomfortable because, you know, they get told, you're not, you can't use this

language. You can't do this. You can't do that. And just to just see, you know, especially they'd read Portnoy's Complaint. Yeah. And a lot of them hadn't read it, which is, you know, I mean, it's such a seminal book for me. Yeah, yeah. Because I was like, oh, yeah, you can do this.

I know you could do this. Yeah, right. Good, you know. And, you know, and a lot of the, you know, were like, how do you do this as a woman? How come women don't write like this? You know, which is not true that women do or don't like that. But, you know, like, it's interesting. They just get these narrow things about what writing is.

Yeah. About what these things are. And so, for me, I'm just trying to give them stuff of people doing the unexpected. Yeah, yeah. Push it. Yeah, do whatever you feel like doing. Yeah. Put it out there.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, absolutely. So, what has been, you know, the sort of black academic reaction to the book yeah i mean i think um good i hope you know i don't read a ton of the reviews you don't know i don't i kind of read them at the beginning and then every now and then somebody will put especially my wife will be you have to read this one you have to read this one so i read some i can't say like i don't read any of but but i think good as far as i can tell you know know, I mean, I think. It was provocative.

I mean, if they're writing about it, you know, the best you can hope from a critical essay is that you take a couple of hits, but at least they see something maybe you didn't even anticipate. Yeah. You know, I just try to do some shit that only I can do, you know. And yeah, that's what I'm trying to do, really. You know, and so and I think, you know, it, you know, I'm not the only weirdo out there. Yeah. I'm not the only person who feels certain some type of way. So, you know, I have a thing.

It's not about necessarily black, but it's about, like, when people pander, you know. Yeah. So, I just try not to pander. Right. Yeah. Oh, no. I understand that one. Yeah.

Absolutely. And try not to pander my own way, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And try not to parent her my own way, you know. So I had a student once came up to me and she was, you know, she identified with the LGBT community. Yeah. She was like, you know, I want to ridicule all this kind of stuff and satirize all this kind of stuff, but I'm so afraid, you know, because we've worked so hard to create what little space we have. Yeah.

And I don't want to make fun of it. And I was like, yeah, you know, I'm not going to tell you what to do. But everything that you add, whether it's accepted, rejected, whatever, that adds to that space. Yeah. Right. That adds to that space. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. And I'm just trying to, because I'm really not trying to add to anybody else's space.

I'm just trying to, you know. Sure. Get my own sense of the album. Well, I think that's an interesting point. You know, that anything that provokes whatever, you know, dogmatic or structural limitations of a space that is presented as dire or a need to be maintained to guarantee that space. If you push on it, sometimes that space gets a little sense of humor. Yeah, maybe. I mean, yeah, because oftentimes- A little reflection.

Yeah, a little reflection. Absolutely. Yeah. Now, does something like this become interesting to a movie person? I guess there's been some interest in it. I actually sold the rights, and I'm trying to, and for the first time, I've actually agreed to do the screenplay. Like, I've always said I'm not going to do the screenplay.

Wow. So. How do you do that? Because that's. I have no idea, Mark. I've started on it. I have no idea. It's because, like, if you look at, like, Catch-22.

Sure. Like, you know, which is pretty disjointed, but pretty stunning. Yeah. You mean the film? Yeah. Yeah. Like, just you have garfunkel's fro so yeah yeah and alan arkin being crazy yeah but yeah but like that movie when you read that book it's like you can never imagine the the the breadth of that you know being a film uh and then you see this film and it's a very surreal experience. Yeah. It's a disjointed but beautiful experience.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's, it's like translating stuff, you know? Yeah. It's, you know, so I think you always lose something, you know, book the film, sometimes, you know, film the book, you lose something, you know? Yeah. And so I think that just goes with it. So I'm just going to try to have fun with it and try not to rewrite the book as a movie,

try to make it different in a weird way. And so that's my challenge. So I don't know what will happen. We'll see, man. Well, it was great talking to you, man. Same, Mark, man. Pleasure, man. Smart guy. Great writer. The sellout's an amazing book i'm glad he stopped by it was nice to talk to him yeah go to wtfpod.com for the upcoming tour dates i'll see you tomorrow night austin texas please don't scream for me to save john for something he's got a i don't know where he's at but but come see me it's been been good. It's been funny. All right, let's see if I can play some music here. Thank you. Boomer lives. It's a night for the whole family.

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