WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 799 - Jason Zinoman / Hank Azaria

Episode Date: April 2, 2017

New York Times comedy critic Jason Zinoman is the one person analyzing comedy from the most prominent journalistic platform in the world. So naturally Jason and Marc would want to talk about the nuts and bolts of creating comedy and, very specifically, the origin of David Letterman's influential brand of comedy, which is the subject of Jason's new book. Plus, Hank Azaria is back in the garage to talk about bringing a gleefully drunk sportscaster to your televisions. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, in-ears? What the fuck, Adelics? What the fuck, Tuckians?

What the fucksikins? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my show. Today on the show, I talk to the New York Times comedy critic. That's Jason Zinnemann. I'll be honest with you, I didn't want to like the guy when we started, and I found it to be a great conversation. He's got a book coming out.

He had sort of amazing access to David Letterman, and he wrote Letterman the Giant of Late Night. That comes out a little later this month. Is it April yet? Yeah, it is, right? April 11th. You can pre-order it now, so that's me and Jason Zinnemann. And then Hank Azaria. 11th you can pre-order it now so that's me and jason zinnemann then uh hank azaria azaria wanted to stop by because he's got a new show on ifc a network that i'm familiar with called brockmeyer

so he said he wanted to come by and talk about that and check in and say hello that's always an exciting situation when hank azaria wants to come by and hang out for a minute he's kind of a live wire that dude so Austin Texas gracias what a fucking great couple of days I had there this is really this is really the first time I went out to Austin outside of the Moon Tower Festival in a long time so it's just me at the Paramount and i think we came pretty close to selling that thing out and uh was what a spectacular fucking theater that is and what what great audiences man and austin is i i'll walk you through austin let me first i'd like to read this uh handwritten letter if i could a woman and her husband were back in the back alley with some other fans after the show. I went out the back door. She gave me some brownies that she made. I said, are these on the

level? She goes, oh yeah, yeah, I'm sober too. Totally on the level. She gave me some on the level brownies and this letter that I read later in my room. Hey Mark, I'm writing this in the car in Austin traffic while my husband drives us to your show. Much like you, my process does not include much prep. It's well within the possibilities of my life that upon meeting you, I will get very nervous and not be able to tell you how much I enjoy and appreciate your podcast and stand up. It is the closest I can get to listening to my dad talk again. He died suddenly of a heart attack last year, and what

I really missed most was listening to his manic, excited appreciation and critique of music and movies. Him and I saw countless live shows and movies together, and I credit him for my deep love of various media. You and him are about the same age and shared many of the same experiences, so hearing your viewpoint and your stories has given me a feeling I thought I wouldn't ever have again. So thank you for sharing yourself with all of us. I think that much like my dad, you'll never truly know how many lives you've touched.

Keep up the great work, sir. We love you for it. Jenna. So you're welcome, Jenna. And thanks for the brownies that I ate a couple of and then couldn't sleep. So they were on the level, but man, they're chocolatey and sugary.

I was up and thinking till about three in the morning. Then I had weird dreams. The reason I read Jenna's letter first here is because the manic excitement. So here's what happens in fucking Austin, Texas. I get there.

I fight the fight with self. I'm going to Opie's. I'm going out to Spicewood. I rented a car. I didn't call anybody I know. I just sort of like, I'm doing this myself. I'm going out there. You walk in.

They got the meats in the open casket dead smoker, and you pick your meats. The woman who owns the place, Kristen, she's always nice to me when I go there. So I walk in, and I see her. She says she wants to go to the show. She said she couldn't get tickets. I'm like, I'll put you on the list.

No problem. I had a good meal. I drove back to the hotel. I was just in a meat coma and a sugar coma. And I didn't feel great, but I was happy that I enjoyed myself. So I get up from the meat nap. I go out the door, go next door to Joe's Coffee. I'm sitting there having a coffee. And the guy walks by me on the street.

I'm like, holy shit. That's Jimmy Vivino from Conan O'Brien. One of my favorite guitar players and friend of mine. And he's just walking down the street in Austin. And I go, Jimmy, what's up? He goes, oh, hey, man, I'm just in town. I'm going to hang out with Jimmy Vaughn tonight and we're going to jam. I'm like, wait, what?

Jimmy Vaughn's here? Yeah, he lives here. And when he's not on the road, he just goes Friday and Saturday. He plays up the street. And I thought I'd fly in, sit in with him, hang out. It's a friend of mine. I'm like, wait, Jimmy Vaughn, one of my favorite fucking guitar players is playing tonight and you're going to sit in? He's like, yeah. Why do you keep repeating that? I'm paraphrasing this and probably adding things to it to make it funny. But I'm like, holy shit, I'm at the Paramount tonight. You want to go? He's like, yeah. i'll put you on the list he goes then we'll go up and we'll hang out with jimmy i'm like are you fucking yeah fuck yeah so now all i'm thinking about is hanging out with jimmy vaughn and watching jimmy vaughn's fingers play who i've not seen

jimmy vaughn who's stevie ray's brother and between me and you i like his guitar playing better so i'm fucking excited so now i'm going into the show but i I forgot to add a thing. Kristen over at Opie said, you know, I'm going to bring somebody tonight. And I'm like, well, that's great. And she goes, well, I'll tell you who, because you might know him. Chuck Woolery, who lives out here now. He's a friend of mine. We hang out and I'm like, well, you know, I'm thinking like, wait, Chuck Woolery, isn't he sort of like a kind of a conservative guy that is a bit outspoken and maybe a little trollish on the social media? Has he made some right wing scenes on the social networking sites?

I didn't say all that, but it was going through my head. So I figured I had to tell her. I'm like, look, you know, I got to be honest with you. I don't know how old Chuck's going to respond to the show. I am sort of doing some, you know, some material about the scoundrel at the helm who's uh you know delivering humanity into a dark cloud uh right now as we speak i said i'm doing some shit i don't know how long to go on for but you know i don't need chuck woolery host of several game shows to get up in the middle of the show and storm out as those type of people not him necessarily but trump supporters are are want to

do just you know tantrum out like little babies that can't sit through 15 minutes of reasonably funny criticism of a guy that deserves it. But I tell her all this. She goes, no, he's a good sport. He's got a good sense of humor. It'll be fun. So now I got that in the back of my head. I got, hell yeah, I'm going to see Jimmy Vaughn. Hell yeah, I'm going to do a big show at the Paramount.

And oh, shit, Chuck Woolery's going to be yeah. I'm going to do a big show at the Paramount and oh shit, Chuck Woolery is going to be there. I go on stage. I had this wonderful opener. LaShonda Lester did a great job. I go out and in the back of my head, I'm like, I don't want to go on too long because I'm going to go see Jimmy Vaughn. And I do about an hour and a half. I close on something new and the audience is fucking spectacular. Just awesome. It's a great theater and it was a great show and uh i did things i'd never done before which is always great for me and then i'm like i gotta get up to see boys to see jimmy vaughn playing his fender el dorado weird guitar hard to find watching those fingers hearing that phrasing i was in it man i was there for like three hours and then jimmy Vivino got up there and jammed with him.

And it was fucking great. It was fucking great. It was a genuine good time. And people were having a good time. Just dancing, hanging out, watching, getting old timey. Nice vibe. I met Jimmy. Maybe he'll come on the podcast. It was a real honor to meet Jimmy Vaughn.

I hadn't seen him since he played with the Fabulous Thunderbirds when I was in fucking high school at the Golden Inn in Golden, New Mexico, in between Santa Fe and Albuquerque. It was a biker bar that eventually burnt down, but I remember going up to see the Fabulous Thunderbirds because I had those first two records, and I had a sharkskin suit, and I was greasing my hair up, and I probably had an old-timey tie and I went up there, got shit-faced, danced my fucking high school ass off to the Fabulous Thunderbirds

and made it home alive. And that was the last time I saw Jimmy Vaughn. And I asked him if he remembered that. And he didn't even pretend that he did. And as a side note, Chuck Woolery apparently had a great time. Hank Azaria is here. He's got a new show on IFC. It's called Brockmire. It premieres on Wednesday, April 5th. He wanted to come over. I said, sure, Hank, let's chat. So we did that. Here it is.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27thth exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. What do you mean fly out? Did you move? I live in New York now. You do?

I do. I moved there three years ago. Since the last time I talked to you? Yes, definitely. Really? Yeah. Why? I'm a New Yorker at heart. I love New York. You're right in the city?

In the Upper West Side. Yeah? Yeah. Huh. I wanted to raise my son in New York. I wanted to raise a Mets fan, is the simplest way to put it. And you're totally out of L.A.? Yeah. Was that a relief?

Uh-huh yeah right big time i mean god bless you yeah i think about it all the time pal i think about all the time well you know like ben stiller's a friend of mine he was right in westchester right yeah yeah yeah we're not far we have a little summer place not far from where he lives. And, you know, it's just nice to be able to shut off show business. In New York, show business is 174th society. Right, exactly. And you can walk outside and there are people.

Totally. And you walk and just lose yourself in the crowds and the humanity. Exactly. Yeah, it's great. You know, my son, I walked down the street with my son. He would see more of life and diversity in people in literally 20 seconds in a block. Yeah. Than he would see in three months out here. That's right.

Yeah. I like it. But for me, it cuts both ways. Like, eventually, I'm exhausted. It is stressful. You need an outlet. You need to escape. Yeah.

To get out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because I was there for years. stressful you know you need an outlet you need to escape yeah to get out yeah yeah i mean because i was there for years and then one day i was on a subway you know with someone's you know sweaty face next to my head yeah who i didn't know and i'm like i'm tired well that's that the personal space thing actually does become very stressful you find yourself getting literally physically edgy wanting to shove people out of your way. Yeah. Yeah. But aside from that. Apart from that.

It's great. It's at least show business is dialed down. But IFC is there. IFC is there, yes. So, you know, you're close to the source that you'll be working with. You can just run down to the IFC office and say, what the fuck is happening? You don't have to use a phone. If you've got an extra hour

you can go down and and say just barge into jen caserta's office exactly and go all the players there yeah i just honeymooners that i just yell out the window hey jen yeah what the hell is it brockmeyer jim brockmeyer brockmeyer i think i'm out of did i talk about this a lot i don't know announcer ohball announcer. Oh, okay. One of these guys who sounds like this. Yeah. Who I grew up listening to. Yeah.

I don't know why they all sounded like this, but they did. Why was this the voice? Yeah. Why was this the generic vanilla announcer voice? Well, I think it was because that's how broadcasting was taught. I guess. Right? But, and it wasn't only the baseball guys.

Yeah. And the sports guys. It was the guy who showed you the Ginsu knife. All of them. Yeah. It was just this voice. Yeah. And I was growing up fascinated with voices. And the comic premise that I started with a long time ago was, do these guys always sound like this?

Sure. Do they sound like me and you? It's almost a stand-up bit. Yes. Yeah. i mean jim edward jim edwards he used to a really funny oh yeah announcer thing a lot of guys george carlin did a really funny robert klein did a hilarious one yeah yeah uh but i always wondered if these guys are like do they come home you know honey what is for dinner i am starving i'll tell you what you know do they, what is for dinner? I am starving. I'll tell you what, you know, do they, when they have sex, they just like,

oh man, Brock Meyer, not taking any chances. Starting off with a missionary. Yeah. Yeah. And oh, surprise finger in the keister.

Brock Myers, you know what? I mean, so that was the idea. Yeah. And then it became like, what if he flipped out on the air? And then what if he was basically like Winnebago man? What if he became like a viral video?

Oh, so that was famous for flipping out. So we're talking about the pilot. Yeah. Yeah. We're talking about, well, I did it as a short on funny or die. It was that premise of the broad, like as if he was a real broadcast. And he just loses it. Yeah.

He gets drunk. He walks on his wife, having sex with someone, gets drunk and, you know, goes on the it. Yeah, he gets drunk. He walks in with his wife having sex with someone, gets drunk, and, you know. Goes on the air. Yeah. Welcome back, folks, to the bottom half of the fucking whore. Yeah, yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The idea of the premise of a guy who's established somehow and losing it as the beginning, I always liked that because I actually put together a show about a guy who was an ad advertising guy, copywriter, who snaps because of the corporate pressure and he sees the truth

and ends up naked in a fountain and then he decides to do good work. Help the world. Went nowhere. But I mean, I like the idea.

No, it's a chestnut. It's a good nugget. It'll work if you can find the gold in there. So who'd you write it with? I didn't write. A very talented writer named Joel Church Cooper wrote them all.

But it was your idea? It was based on a short that I wrote with some friends of mine. But you're like created by Hank Azaria and the other guy. Technically, it's based on a character created by hank's area which is more technical well let me tell you something that back end money on ifc you're lucky you got your name on there listen it took me so many years to make this thing i'm so happy that i made it and i like it and ifc as we said before we sat down they really do let you do what you want to do it is hard to get eyeballs well that's right they're they're great you know jen's great and uh christine is

great and the people i work with, they were very supportive. They gave us a lot of room. People will watch it, and eventually, you know, they watch it on Netflix if it gets there, like my show. I would be happy. Like, I'd love to have buzz and critics, but, you know, just I'm happy with the show, and if we get to make it for a while, that's also good. But, you know, once you're done with it, you're like, well, I did this beautiful thing and it's out there and people can watch it. I actually thought of you a lot as we were making this show

and coming up with the idea of it because it's a guy who, look, you know, it's weird. It's like, like about 10 years ago, I walked into my agent's office

like, you know, come on, what am I going to, I got to drum up business basically. And you know, I had a bunch of characters that I did, this being one of them, but I'm not on SNL and where am I going to drum up business, basically. Yeah. And, you know, I had a bunch of characters that I did, this being one of them. But I'm not on SNL.

And where am I going to be at that point, age 42? Yeah. So they're like, you know, Funny or Die exists. Go do a short there, which I did. And you say, like, and look, maybe if it's good, you develop it into something. Sure. But that never happens. Right.

That actually happened with this. But it took that long, huh? I mean, that was 10 years ago? Made the short, and then we were going to make it as never happened. Right. That actually happened with this. But it took that long, huh? I mean, that was 10 years ago? Made it short, and then we were going to make it as a movie. Yeah. And we got six weeks into prep, and then they pulled the financial plug into great loss of money. And funny that I stayed with it.

I gave them a lot of, I'm very appreciative. But, you know, I thought of you because in the same way that I was able, thanks to digital media. Yeah. in the same way that I was able, thanks to digital media, I was able to kind of reinvent myself or go completely, I wasn't going to pitch this at NBC and they weren't going to buy it. And then if they were going to buy it,

they were going to completely fuck it up. Right. Which I've had happen a couple of times. Yeah. So to be able to do that and go, well, fuck it, I'm going to do what I want to do. And then people go, hey, that's actually good and like it.

And then it actually does lead to something creative is awesome awesome and that happens to jim brockmeyer oh really yeah he reinvents himself as this guy will say whatever on the air you know oh yeah yeah yeah that seems to be working for public people which he has mixed feelings about but still it's like i mean i can go on the air and be some kind of weird drunk and people will listen all right awesome it's like network. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore.

Well, that's great. So how many episodes of this thing? We did eight. Yeah? And you're the guy all the way. I'm Jim Brockmeyer

the entire time, Mark Maron. And he's got a wife and children. No, no, God, no. He left his horrible wife publicly out of there, you know.

Oh, right, right. So that really happened. Which turns out she was this sex addict he had no idea for years. She was the only woman he had ever had sex with. They met in high school. She was out there. Ruined his life. He went off traveling the world and calling, you know, Finnish Latvian wife-carrying competitions,

which actually exist. Did you shoot internationally? No, no, no. He just tells a piece of it. Where'd you shoot all of it? In Atlanta. Oh, yeah? In Macon.

Oh, really? Yeah. It's set in actually like western Pennsylvania. Everything shoots down there. It's the law. You must shoot down there. In Atlanta.

So they've got the tax benefits down there. Is that why? Because I know CNN and Adult Swim and there's a lot of TV presence. At the time we were there, there were 57 shows shooting there.

57. So they did the tax incentive thing, I guess. They do, but like a lot of states do that. New York even does it. New Mexico, where I grew up,

does it. Like fake time. They built a studio out there. Yes, but then it, it goes musical chairs a bit because then it only for a few years,

I think, can a state sustain how cheap it is to be there yeah then the prices start to kind of go up and then hollywood goes elsewhere because the next state that's hungry for right well he used to be vancouver yeah is that still happening vancouver believe that it is yeah not as much as it used to how's the kid doing he's awesome yeah yeah he's truly awesome. Do you go out to Central Park and stuff? We live right on Central Park.

Oh, that's nice, huh? We're there constantly, yeah. Oh, you got the good New York thing going. Oh, I love that park. Park's a miracle. Are you going to musicals and stuff? I have been to many a musical. Yeah?

Yeah, I'm due to, like, I haven't seen a lot of the latest, like, Dear Evan Hansen, and I guess Jake Gyllenhaal's about to do Sunday in the latest, like Dear Evan Hansen. I guess Jake Gyllenhaal's about to do Sunday in the Park, which is supposed to be great. That's exciting. You like it. You like doing the theater. That's the reason I love New York. I like doing theater.

I did a play at the Public about a year ago, and I really like going to the theater. What did you do at the Public? I did a play with John Krasinski and Claire Danes called Dry Powder about private equity in New York. Oh, really? Was it good? It was very good. A woman named Sarah Burgess, a young woman,

young aspiring wonderful writer named Sarah Burgess wrote it as a first play. And... That Claire Danes is a very earnest individual. She is.

She's a very intense actress. Yeah, man. She is. I've had her in here and it's sort of like it she's in it and straight up and uh you know what i mean it's not yeah it's it's intense yeah she's uh she brings that energy yeah yeah she it was i mean she doesn't do theater all that often so she was very focused on doing her best. And it went well? It did actually. I really enjoyed doing it.

Did you go see Hamilton with the kid? I had him during the kid. You didn't? The kid loves the music. Right. But I, you know,

I'm still old school enough I think that's actually there's too much, too much dirty words. I also, you know, besides that, there's too much to try to explain

to him afterwards. Right. And then also see something like that when you can actually appreciate it. Right. Like even that goes for Star Wars. Yeah. I'm like, that's a big deal. Right.

Right, right. Don't do it too young. Yeah, watch it when you know what's going on. Well, it's like your old school in that, like, I don't want to have to backload explaining things when it can happen organically. Why not, you know, let the kid be out in the world and come back and go like what does that mean as opposed to just it all dumped on him one night and you got a lot of questions to answer exactly like look we showed him star wars because the movie was coming out

yeah and all the kids in the class were talking about it right he was behind the curve and i was like all right i'll show you this because technically- The first one? Yeah, the first three. Okay. The good ones. Yeah. And, you know, sure enough, I had to pause it every two minutes to explain what he was seeing.

Really? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was just beyond his reach following a plot like that. Right. Oh, I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, just like, wait a minute. Why is Luke doing that? Look, his uncle and aunt who raised him were just killed, so there's no reason for him to stay on the planet you should have like uh what do you call it uh on the extras where you have uh like they should have parents explaining on the extras for for kids that are too young like where just a little just a parent going all right if you're under seven what's happening the whole time the movie turned into a five-hour experience because I had to stop and explain it all.

Is he a sports kid? He's more of a, I mean, he actually is quite coordinated and athletic, but he takes after his mother and prefers music and magic. So how are you going to get him into the Mets? What are you going to do? Oh, I'd just say he has absolutely no choice about that. Yeah. I just bring him. Yeah. And if he'd rather focus on hot that. Yeah. I just bring him. Yeah.

And if he'd rather focus on hot dog and ice cream, that's fine with me. But you want to make sure you did your job as a sports fan, as a Mets fan, to at least

indoctrinate the kid for he'll take it from there. Totally. He can take it or leave it, but I'm going to present it. So what do you got going today? After I leave you, Mark Maron, I'm headed over to my friend Rich Eisen's

where I'm going to do his podcast both as myself and then as Brockmire. I do a lot of Brockmire shtick with him. He's a friend of mine. You have a costume? I actually do. I have my Brockmire drag with me. So the next thing you're doing is also on video?

Yes. All right, so you're going to do half hour or whatever as you. I'll do myself and then we'll pre-tape something for later as Brockmire. Oh, God. Yes. And what's the big rollout? What are they going to do for you? You know, the response to this has been awesome.

I have, you know, I'm going to do Colbert. I'm a New York guy. But like, you know, I got a Van a vanity fair spot which i've never cracked vanity fair before i was like really i was like wait a minute really they're gonna do a little piece on you little piece yeah and then uh howard stern i've never never been on stern never been on stern gonna go on howard oh that'll be fun yeah i'm you know i was nervous about doing it i only did it once and it took years it was only a few years ago and i was just i was terrified i'm a little nervous about it too.

I just kept thinking like, oh, what's he going to find? What's he got on me? What's he going to come at me? Exactly. But he's a thoughtful guy now. He's a little different. Yeah, no, totally. He's a different tone.

Yeah, he does. A little self-aware. Yes. Done a little therapy. He's a little older. Yeah. He's softened a bit. For years, I've really wanted to get on the show.

I have been a fan. Yeah. So I'm very excited to go chat with him. Well, that's thrilling because if you are, and obviously even if I'm not, it's not that I'm not a fan, but he is Howard Stern. Yeah. So as you get older, there's fewer and fewer things that make you go like, I'm excited about that.

I'll tell you, that play I did. Yeah. We had some fancy folks come. Yeah. It was the public. Sure. I don't really get nervous about that stuff. Right. the public and sure i i don't really get nervous about that stuff right you know but the night i

knew that howard was there was the only night that i was pretty uptight performing yeah i just really wanted to do well for howard i think it may be also knowing that he he'll probably talk about it the next day i mean he always talks about whatever he did the night before did he you know he did yeah and he was very kind actually but. But, you know, if you suck, then he's going to say, yeah, that ain't going to happen. He didn't do it. No, he was actually very calm about it. Well, I'm just happy he's going to the theater. I know.

He doesn't usually, I think. I think he's friends with John Krasinski through Jimmy Kimmel. Okay. Because, like, you know, it used to be his schedule didn't really allow him to do anything. Yeah, no, true. You know, but now I think it's a little a little easier got a little more time yes well well best of luck with it and say hi to jen and christine and the gang i will at ifc uh you know despite you know what however difficult i became in moments they were very supportive i see and therein lies a tale or two eh i'm gonna go

ask about this i'll tell you when we get off the mic. I'll tell you it all and I'll tell you what to look out for. But great, great, great creative, supportive people over there. They are, actually. No, definitely. They write. They don't overnote you. They give you suggestions and say, do what you feel is right.

Sometimes they're good suggestions. I mean, you know, it's not network. It's not like a bunch of people second-guessing themselves, wondering who they can blame when it fails. I've been through so much of that yeah i bet it's so soul crushing it's horrible i i i just uh i don't i'm not cut out for it it's very hard yeah i mean you know that's why it's thrilling about this you know second golden age of television we're living in where at least you can go you know however it might be frustrating where maybe it's hard to get traction or eyeballs which it is but you can make the thing man just to be able to do what you want like you know i remember you know jenji cohen for example created orange is the new black and she was a writer i met about you back in the day when i was there

and that was a pretty good show but i remember she's pretty frustrated creatively i just did a show of hers did you i did the the wrestling show the glow oh yeah gorgeous ladies wrestling i'm in all of those oh that's awesome and uh yeah i'm excited about it was a blast working with her and allison brie and and the writers uh liz and carly it was like i'm like the weird thing about doing a thing like that where we shot 10 episodes and it was you know it was intense and it was unique and then you gotta wait half a year yeah i'm gonna watch it when's it gonna be up oh i'm having that with brockmar like because i actually i'm so used to i'm so zen trained to whatever i do i just forget about it because what difference does it make right like i'm fortunate enough to have a long career i'm

character actor and something's gonna come up but i I really am happy with how this came out, which is a tough spiritual place to be in because you get very attached to it, wanting it to do well. Yeah. And then you wait. Yeah. Then you have to wait a long time. But Jenji, it's so thrilling to see somebody like that who's so creative get to do what she really wants to do.

Oh, she's great. And laid back and thoughtful. She's great. Yeah. And it was amazing. She produced it too she didn't create the show that was a liz flay hive and carly mensch and it's basically me and 14 women who were and i've got to somehow uh without knowing anything about wrestling create a wrestling show that's pretty awesome did you have fun doing that i did it was my first uh you first foray into not being me. Right.

Which really was about just turning off a little bit of the neurotic and wearing clothes from the period. Right. That was the acting job. That sounds completely like good acting advice. Yeah, yeah. Just don't take that part that you do away and just weave the other stuff. How's Mr. Stutz doing? You know, I don't speak to him as much.

Oh, okay. But he's great. I talk to him sometimes. Luckily, I'm not so fucked up that I need to talk to him. Here's another good Phil Stutz story. You know, I was seeing him a lot at one point and I said, so Phil, I think mostly because of money, I said, Phil, I'm doing all right.

I think I'm going to maybe instead of once a week, every other week, maybe once a month. And he went very earnestly, yeah, all right. You could come once a month, but do come because you're really fucked up. Straight up, honest. Well, it was great seeing you, Hank, and best of luck with the show.

Thank you very much, Mark. Nice to see you too. Fun. Hank is energizing. He's one of those guys, you get around, you feel energized. Jason Zinneman. You know, I think a good critic

is important to the evolution of things, of art. It's, you know, good critics can teach you something about the form and about yourself if you're the one being criticized sometimes. But, you know, it's always a bit contentious. Jason Zinnemann has always been kind to me or reasonable to me when he's written about me. And he's upset me when he hasn't and he's you know challenged me personally just by some of his opinions about things so that that's a good critic uh but when he came over i didn't know what to expect i didn't know you know

i i had a little chip on my shoulder about something to do with lenny bruce but but like this was it seems to be happening a little more now where we, you know, there's an interesting mix of personal conversation and intellectual conversation going on that I really, I dig it. I dig it. And, you know, and once we got going, it was great. It was great to talk to Jason and his book is great. He had sort of amazing access to David Letterman for his book, The Giant of Late Night, which comes out April 11th. And this is, Jason is a New York guy, and he was out here, and it was a lovely conversation, and here it is.

Is it new? Yeah, I'm not used to this. Jason, come on. You have to. I sit and write. I sit and write. I'm not, this is. I guess so, because is this and write. I'm not. This is. I guess so.

Is this your first book? Second book. Well, then I did an e-book also on Chappelle, but second real book. What was the first one? It was about horror films in the 70s. When did you write that? Five years ago. And all the sources were all around here, too.

There's Carpenter. You've had a lot of them now. John Carpenter. John Carpenter, Toby Hooper, Wes Craven. I spent five years with those guys. Chappelle, you wrote an e-book on Chappelle. He's been elusive for me. I mean, I run into him.

I talk to him. He acknowledged it, and I made the offer to him. You did? Yeah, but I mean, I think with him, it's like you're going to have to catch him in some weird moment. I think that's exactly right. I think if you like, you see people who bump into him at a club and then spend the next 24 hours with him well that's it you know like if i had the equipment in the car or something right you know i was like you know when we do it now it's like all right you know maybe that would happen but i've you know i've known the guy i can't say that i know him

but i mean i remember when he came to new york when he was like 17 or whatever however old or what he was i mean i was there you know working you know, working, you know, coming up myself. So I remember him as a kid. Right. I've had, you know, pretty long conversations with him at different junctures in life. Right. But, you know, he's sort of a mythic presence in a way. Well, he's become, I mean, it's interesting.

I don't think he designed this, but, you know, if you look back when he left Comedy Central. Yeah. From a pure career move at the time it seemed crazy yeah but i think you could look back and say that was the smartest move he could have done because he turned down whatever it was 50 million dollars and he was probably one of the most popular if not the most popular comedians in the country yeah but he became mythic and he remains he could show up at any city yeah announce a show the day of and it's packed.

Yeah, no, it's fascinating. But the real hinge to that was, it may have been in retrospect, and framing it retrospectively as a great career move, is that the fact that he delivers the goods is everything. True. So if he did what he did and then showed up and stunk, it would have been a bad thing. Right, right. True, true. But he happens to have the goods consistently and remains interesting and engaged and intelligent and funny.

So it continues on. But a lot of people, as you know better than anyone, a lot of people have the goods and then they think, if I don't get on TV, then people aren't going to see it. What I think is exciting about Chappelle, the late Chappelle, is he is an event, you know, he's a live standup event. You have to go, you have to work to go to see him. Sure.

There are other guys like that. There are. I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, that they don't have the same heft of cultural importance, but, you know, Brian Regan, I haven't seen him on TV in a million years and he's a huge act. That's true. You know, Gaffigan

is not really on TV that much. You know, everything's sort of fragmented. I mean, it seemed that your career sort of hinged on your specials at some other point in time. But, I mean,

it seems now that maybe someone will watch your special. Right. You know, you just did your third hour for whoever. Yeah, I hope people can find it. Well, I think also what's happened is now everyone's so accessible,

you become, you know, that if you're on Twitter, you're on YouTube, that going back a little bit, not letting people see you, has a different kind of power than it did before the for social media i think if you do have some momentum yeah i think that you know that only applies to certain people that you know occupy a a large space in the cultural consciousness you know like if i if i disappeared for a year i don't think you know when i came back you know i'd be filling arenas or anything. I don't know about that.

I don't know. I'll tell you, when I did the Chappelle book, Chappelle's from D.C., which is where I'm from. And so I spent a lot of time in the D.C. stand-up scene in the 80s. And I talked to his best friend from high school who started as a stand-up with him. Dave? Yes, Dave Edwards. And he said that Chappelle always talked about how much he loved Bobby Fischer. Yeah. Dave Edwards. And he said that Chappelle always talked about how much he loved Bobby Fisher. Yeah.

And how Bobby Fisher disappeared. Yeah. And he became, now out of no clue if that's real or whatever, but that's what he said. I've always been fascinated by that comment by- Bobby Fisher, the chess player. The chess player, right. Bobby Fisher was the greatest chess player in the world. He played Spassky.

right that that bobby fisher was the greatest chess player in the world he played spassky this you know and uh and then he went mia and he returned you know you know and he he seemed like kind of a crackpot but but the fascination about him right the famous sure searching for bobby fisher uh uh endured and i just thought i mean if that's even if that's close to true that it was in there that it was in there that's just was in there, that's just amazing. Sure. Well, I mean, you know, it's sort of like people have these, even with the current president, everyone thought it was some publicity stunt. But if you really look at how he's engaged and around what for the last decade or two,

it seems like it was always sort of on his mind. Oh, yeah. And he's an entertainer as well he he really is and and and was a part of not just entertainment but comedy and reality tv i mean publishing you know i think a lot of people like you and me i'm in the media and comedy have a a different uh attitude toward trump because in a weird way, our world's created him. I mean, he was, The Art of the Deal was written by a New York Magazine writer. Yeah. And then a reality show producer took that idea and blew it up to create The Apprentice.

And his appearance on Rose, you could see him honing this thing. I followed him on Conan once. Really? Yeah. I don't know which one it was, but I knew I, like I made a joke about him and it was in the nineties. And after I made the joke about him, cause he, he had pulled out a condom and just started fiddling with it in the middle of his segment.

And I, and I made a joke. I think the joke was, um, why, why has he got a condom? Does he know prostitutes carry their own these days? And then I said, uh, well, this might be my last TV appearance. You might find me in the East River. I mean, I said that in 1990-something. When was that? Late, mid-90s?

Yeah. Interesting. And I was already intimidated. I've been actually, I've been studying old Trump letterman appearances. I'm going to do something on on it i don't know what but i think there there there hasn't been a story written about how huge a part trump was of letterman both late night and late show and most of those appearances haven't been seen or not on youtube so you don't discuss that in the new book i don't't. No, I don't. Letterman, the last giant of late night. Yes. He was. I hope,

I think so. So let's go back to, you know, because you've written on me, you've seen me, I don't really know you. I'm usually happy with what you write about me.

I don't think you've really, you know, you were very kind to me after the big Brooklyn Opera House performance, that marathon show, which was an interesting show.

And you did a nice piece. You didn't have to. I didn't know you were there. Right. That's the weird thing about, you know, most when a film critic comes to review or they know the critics there.

I'm glad I didn't know. A lot of people don't know I'm showing up. I had no idea. Are you glad? I was curious about that. Did it bug you that this piece showed up that you didn't know was going to be there? No, I never know when anything's going to be there.

And for me, with criticism or with people that know how to write what you do, I find that generally it should rise above a review and that it should engage me. And if there is critical elements that if they're thought out, I can handle it. I learn from criticism. I don't learn much from reviews because they're usually shallow. But if somebody takes the time to write and is a real critic, cultural or otherwise, usually it's thoughtful.

I mean, I don't know if there's another critic who has reviewed, I've reviewed your work in a theater, in theater work, solo show in 2000. You did? Yep. For who, for what magazine? For Time Out New York when I was starting my career. You reviewed Jerusalem Central?

I've reviewed you as a theater, as standup, as podcast, as TV, as I've reviewed all of these parts and it's been absolutely fascinating. I mean, I come to your work

in a different way than I do for other people because I've seen how you've evolved and changed and grown and you know, you've created this. Yeah. And so,

and now in a weird way, it feels like along with being a stand-up you've moved into my territory i mean you're i consider this and i mean you know one cliche about critics is that we uh we're failed artists who are jealous of of artists and for the most part that is not true with me uh that i never really wanted to be a uh actor or stand-up or any of that stuff right i always want to do what i'm doing uh but i you're an exception in that i am a little jealous of because i know how hard it is to interview in fact that's the part of my job where i feel like i still have the most to learn yeah um and it's

still the part that i think the most about really and i and i think you i don't even know if you know it but just intuitively you have figured out certain things about interviewing that it takes people a long time to figure out. Oh, yeah? Yeah, and in a weird way, you're someone who I look like, obviously you do different stuff than I do in stand-up, but when I hear you with, you know, Matt Graham, I mean, I've been in interviews like that.

Yeah. That's a tough terrain to figure out how to handle that well you know where'd you come from where'd you grow up DC okay you just said that see that was a bad interviewing thing I should remember that but but you reminded me so you grow up in DC and what what is the life there we're like what what kind of world do you grow up in you got brothers and sisters I got two uh I got a brother and sister who are both much older. My mom, my dad's worked in the State Department, so that's why we're in D.C., but my mom found- Is he still there?

They're still there because my mom founded a theater the year I was born, a theater and acting conservatory, which is now one of the bigger regional theaters in the country. So I grew up around- Is your dad still at State? No, he's retired. Oh, okay. He's retired. And my mom's still working.

What was the last administration he was in? Well, he doesn't see himself as part of any administration. Oh, okay. He's retired. And my mom's still working. What was the last administration he was in? Well, he doesn't see himself as part of any administration. Oh, right. He's like a career. He's like a career bureaucrat. Right. Now you're seeing all these stories about them, you know, having tension with the Trump administration.

He's, you know, I don't know what the equivalent of my dad would say today, but when he was working there, he would say, politicians come and go, guys like me stay. Right. We make the government run right and uh so he didn't uh you know he he wasn't a political although figure although he you know spent a lot of time overseas my brother and sister were both born in thailand and i spent time in malaysia he was focused in southeast asia uh-huh so uh so but but i mean the reason we stayed stayed in New York was my mom's theater. In D.C.?

Yeah, in D.C. I mean, I'm sorry, in D.C. And it started out as a small operation? Tiny. I mean, it was like there were actors in my basement doing scenes, you know? Really? Yeah. So, you were a mistake or you just, they had you later in life?

It's the first time I ever, see, this is a, yes, I was a mistake. Yeah. I was actually a mistake. There was a, there was a uh birth there was an iud called uh the copper seven yeah and there's a it didn't work yeah and there's a whole generation of kids copper seven baby copper i was a copper seven baby that sounds like a good band name yes my parents were done with kids yeah we're done with kids and there you go and my mom was starting the theater the last thing she needed was a kid, like, you know, dragging her down.

But she had you. She did have me. Yeah. And what's the age difference between you and your siblings? My sister's 13 years old and my brother's 10 years old. Oh, they were really done. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I had an only child kind of childhood. Uh-huh. And that was like a latchkey kid. Uh-huh. My parents, they had done it. They were not, they sort of left me alone. And, well, yeah, they'd done it twice, and they probably had a handle on it. You know, maybe.

Maybe, maybe. But you have a good relationship with your siblings? Yeah, pretty good. Yeah? Interesting. And both your folks are still around? They are. They are.

All right, so you're a little kid, and you got actors. Like, what was the bent of the theater? What year are we talking about that the theater came up around uh like 75 oh so it was like exciting like kind of uh you know probably cutting edge ish you know there was pushing some envelopes in the theater then people taking chances still i think that's right that's right and it was definitely like they would do, you know, the, the off-Broadway shows the next year, you know, Edward Albee, David Mamet, you know, they would do a lot of solo shows, you know, a lot of like, you know, people who were doing performance art the next year they would come to DC and do a show there.

And that was at your mom's theater. That was my mom's theater. Yeah. And so, I mean, I didn't realize at the time but looking back that was a huge asset to grow up she's a director too so she would uh you know the the kind of dinner conversation about solving some problem with with some staging exactly so a lot of your childhood i guess like she would bring you to the theater yeah i saw a lot of and you were hanging around oh yeah i mean it was exciting i met a lot of you know you I mean, I was excited to see these plays early

and to see, you know, whatever, August Wilson would come or Israel Horowitz had a play. Sure. And he'd come in, you know, who at the time for me was the Beastie Boys' dad. Right. That was really exciting. I was in Indian Wants to Bronx in college, yeah. Do you ever think about going back and, like, doing a Broadway show or something?

Yeah, I don't know if that opportunity is really, you know, one that I can get, but I did like it. You know, it is sort of, you know, acting is exciting to me, but I don't know if I lost my confidence or I didn't follow through or I didn't, you know, know if I was good or not. But like over the course of doing the TV show, I think I learned how to do it. And I, you know, I can see that. And, you know, I was ready to, to accept that because I'd seen other comics kind of bumble through a season or two before they kind of lock into how to be there. Theater is different though. I think you'd also, I mean, most people who aren't built for theater, but that's not true for standups. Right. Who know what it's like to perform in front of an audience. No, it'd be interesting. I, you know, maybe i should seek out an opportunity to do that maybe not on a huge scale

but certainly when i perform like when you saw me in jerusalem syndrome i don't know but even that night at the uh at bam when you saw me and i did like over two hours or whatever the hell that was there were moments when i'm in front of like, that's 2000 people. And, and, you know, I, you know, if I'm at my best, I have to be pretty there. I have to be pretty vulnerable. There's no like, you know, me, you know, kind of plowing through an act is not really an option. Obviously I have an act, but if I don't have some sort of very tangible emotional connection

to an audience, I don't, I don't, I don't like it. It frustrates me. So when I was sitting there in front of that many people, there were moments there where I'd bring it all the way in and I almost became too small, but I kind of thrived on it. There was something really organic and strange about just sitting there on that stage

and not doing anything and not knowing. I remember at some point you sat on the edge of the bam opera host stage right now so why did you do that why make that decision because i felt like i wasn't connecting huh so like i think it's impulsive for me to at least you know make it as human as possible in those moments where i feel like it wasn't that i didn't feel like the act wasn't working right it was just that it was hard for me to gauge what was happening with so many people. And, you know, and I didn't, you know, and I was sort of reaching out and I sort of psyched myself up a little bit.

But usually if I'm doing over two hours, it's not because I'm doing great in my mind. It's because I'm going to keep doing it until, you know, something happens. Right, right, right. I mean, see see that's fascinating to me because i think as someone who's covering comedy now yeah i think one of the biggest challenges in this moment when there's a lot more comics playing big rooms yes is how do you maintain this connection with the audience right uh at with 2 000 people and the people who are geniuses at doing it in small rooms, you know, aren't necessarily,

it's, it's, it's, you have to relearn how to play a big room. I think there's a way to play it, but I'm not always convinced that the method works for everyone. Right. Like, cause you know, if you talk to Louie or probably Bill or, you know, some of these cats who are doing it is that, you know, they stay big, you know, and they make sure the shit is tight and they know exactly where those laughs are going to come. I think the nuances that can happen in a smaller room improvisationally or intimacy wise, you

know, happen naturally because of proximity. But if you're going to do a big room, you can't really rely on that as fuel. Right. So, you know, you got to make sure your bits are fucking hammers. Right. Yep. Yep. And you pace them out.

Yeah. But the weird thing that I learned that I think is true, and as somebody who has dealt with theater, is that those rooms, no matter what size, are all capable of handling profound intimacy. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really on the performer to be present for that. So that became the interesting thing to me when I started working big rooms was, how small can I make this room?

Interesting. Yeah, no, I mean, look, that's a big issue. You know, Broadway houses are bigger than, are big. Yeah. They're, and this is a challenge when you, for actors when they go from off-Broadway houses to a Broadway house. If you talk, this is a challenge for actors when they go from off-Broadway houses to a Broadway house.

This is a universal issue. I mean, I've done a lot of reporting. I'm actually going to see the last. Barnum & Bailey Circus is closing. Right. And I've talked to- Moved to the government. Yeah, exactly.

The clowns will tell you that Cirque du Soleil killed clowning, or some clowns will say it because the scale got so big and that it the acrobats kind of fruit became came to the fore and it's yeah it's it's a different art to perform for 150 people clowning to 2,000 people you can do it in fact you can do you know clowning is well suited because it's big that's interesting though the acrobats took center stage whereas like yeah in a functioning kind of uh varied circus it was just another element it was a death defying element yeah but

it wasn't all of it exactly in fact clowns were the stars that are beginning early Cirque du Soleil and you know that was in the history of circus yeah you know uh bozo the clown clowns were stars yeah they've been a little bit marginalized uh from most of the big circuses people go to see interesting and that's how you're moving into that piece i well i've been thinking about it because i'm writing kind of working on a sort of elegy for for ringling brothers oh that's nice which is uh you know i don't think people i mean this was i'll i'm gonna write about this next week, I think. But the people don't realize what a big deal it is.

This is like if Disney closed. Yeah. I mean, if you talked to someone from 100 years ago and you told them Rindling Brothers Barnum & Bailey Circus is going to close. Yeah. It would be like if you're telling someone now that Disney's going to close. Right. It was the circus. I mean, before radio, if you lived in Sacramento or whatever.

Yeah. And you wanted to see entertainment from New York or, you know, that was the circus. The circus came to town. Right. A lot of our language comes from the circus because that was mass entertainment before we had radio and TV and all this stuff. They'd erect the tent.

Yes. Yes. There's a reason people wanted to run away and join the circus. Sure. It seemed like a whole other world. It was a world unto itself. Yep. It's sad. I think it is i mean did you see the circus when you were a kid oh yeah i saw i love the circus yeah i love this and i love barman bailey i think i was the last i'm giving her my whole story but i think i was the last generation this will go after that

saw rindling brothers as the bit the greatest show on earth oh yeah uh i mean when i was a kid circus soleil was a quirky arty you know european right it's only in a couple yeah right right and really both was a big spectacle yeah and then cirque just i mean what's interesting is if you look at um in a way it's like the auto industry yeah the uh uh rinling brothers was a symbol of american scale yeah and now it got beat by a fucking French Canadian country and no one gives a shit. Like,

if GM goes down, it's a blow to our ego. How come this isn't a blow to our ego? This is why I want to write this piece. Like, this,

if you talk to someone from the 30s and 40s, I mean, Ronald McDonald comes from, you know, Ringling Brothers. This is,

America didn't invent the circus, but we supersized it. Yeah. It's an American institution. yeah um it's american institution and it's now it's dying so if you want a symbol for the trump era yeah this is yeah i mean it's interesting that no but yet no one's sort of making those connections that's on you man i guess so so you're this little kid you're sitting through edward albee you're watching you actors spit and

sweat yeah your mom's directing things. You're hearing August Wilson talk. You're sitting around watching actors converse. You see how they light the place, how they stage manage the place, how they build the sets and everything else. But it never struck you as something you wanted to do? Well, for exactly that reason. I mean, you don't want to do what your parent wanted to do? Well, for exactly that reason. I mean, you don't want to do what your parent wants to do. You know what I mean? I mean, what struck me is

when the reviews showed up at the door. Yeah. And, you know, for about 10 years, my mom got panned from the Washington Post, which was the- Oh, really? And there was, you know, kind of a ritual to getting that review. Yeah. A rage ritual. And that struck me as a kid. And looking back, some of those vivid memories are my mom's response to getting, then she got about 10 years of good reviews.

What was her response? I mean, just apoplectic rage. I mean, just she'd read it quietly and then there'd be a pause then she would take sentence by sentence and she would just you know rip into each sentence and then she would and you're like that's what i want to do pretty much pretty much that seems to have an effect okay that guy's getting through to my mother well it must be like if she cared that much about it

right it's something's important is there something important yeah yeah um so i mean you could psycho and say oh it's a rebellion that i became the enemy of the performer but but i think it's more that uh i think on some place some level my mom like a lot of people hated critics she still probably will tell you she hates critics, even though her son is one. But she cared about what they said, and she was a, you know, and remains a real arguer about art. I grew up in a household where art mattered, was a consequence. Whether you did, that movie didn't just suck. It should make you mad how bad it sucked.

Right. And if a great work is exhilarating, and discussions about art were not secondary discussions about politics. Yeah. And that definitely had a big impact on me. Yeah. It's a world of intellectuals, and people believe in the power of creativity and art to change

things and people you know i i i worry about that world you know my my girlfriend's a painter and you know as we were talking about at the beginning here you know these books whether or not i've read most of them or not you know represent a time where like you probably grew up in a house that looked like this oh yeah oh yeah fetishizing book my dad takes my dad's favorite pastime was going to used bookstores which are all gone and he would spend a good bit of his time his for fun yeah knew all the used bookstore owners in dc and the surrounding areas and they knew him right and he had these eccentric interests he was interested in medieval history and all the stuff but it was nice to go to those places and talk to the guy yep maybe there's

someone else sitting around yep you know i i i completely revered that world you know it was a world that you know i think that in my mind came out of the um you know 50s and 60s yep uh you know where where you know a lot of media the the small amount of media that was around then, you know, indulged intellectuals in those discussions. Like Cavett and even Carson to a certain degree. You know, there was definitely a place where these guys could talk about, even in small bits and pieces, about. I just watched James Baldwin, you know on on dick cavett and it was profound yeah i mean it was a elevated conversation on that was challenging national tv yeah a national tv i mean on network tv at a time when network tv really meant something

well yeah the everybody watched one of the three no i mean I mean, I worry about that. You know, there was a time when there was a critique of the kind of simplistic distinction between high and low culture. Right. And that was a good critique to have. And a lot of my favorite critics went up reading Pauline Kael and Susan Sontag. But we've gone so far in the other direction

that I do look at like, again, this goes back to how I was raised. My mom, in a lot of ways was a kind of old-fashioned snob right she the high art was better than low art she you know she uh you know you did movies to make money but you did theater because you were an artist right now that's not right but but it she had a standard about this and art films were there to elevate the form of film and could be differentiated from movies exactly yeah she had and tv she had no use for tv now she does but she's but back then i grew up in a household that had and you know where that came from is complicated it's probably

some insecurity that that's that that goes into uh but uh but uh i think now it's become that that point of view is way out of fashion you won't find a critic who will say oh all of right no no no tv reality television is all shit you can't even say we all i think there was an evolution of that too in criticism uh you know with film critics that you know we're taking you know people like i i think like maybe kale did it but i'm trying to remember some of the other ones who were, you know, assessing the history of mainstream movie entertainment. into the studio directors who had a point of view and then elevating what was once considered, I think at the time, these mainstream entertainments, but were clearly the visions of these directors

and kind of established that outside of the parameters of what those movies were intended for. Definitely. And that's how you get a sort of more robust film criticism and theory. Yes, no question. And I mean, there are problems with that view in auteur theory.

And a lot of my career has been about questioning the auteur theory in a way, both in film and even this Letterman book, that these art forms are more collaborative than the auteur theory allows, et cetera. That said, those thinkers who came about created this intellectual discussion and created a belief in standards that I think served them and then their sort of successors well.

Right. That not everything has the equal ambition. It's not just about execution. It's that certain works of art have a higher execution and are more difficult to access. And we should consider that when judging this works of art have a higher execution and are more difficult to access and we should uh consider that when judging this works of art so then what do you do you go to college and you study what history just straight up i studied actually uh history of the uh treatment of the mentally ill actually really yeah yeah what what compelled you it's a good question. I went through several majors. I was with philosophy and then English and then I went to history. And then I had a professor who I really liked who studied it.

And I was interested in the sort of mental hospital as institution as a way to keep people out. And the way that our definition of mentally ill has changed over the generations and what that says about us as a culture yeah and and then I got fascinated I really had just I wrote my thesis on in the early century is a millionaire named Harry thaw who shot and killed a Stanford white who was probably most famous architect of his day yeah on top of Madison Square Garden over a woman. Samford White was sleeping with his wife. And the trial about it, which was like the OJ trial of his day, had this great debate over.

He pleaded insanity. And so because I think I like this sort of story. The story is so great in New York. And I got dug in and made it all about the sort of debate among shrinks of the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's no good reason for it. I didn't really have a lot of direction, to be honest with you, about what I wanted to study in college. But I guess it was that focus seems sort of compelling and loaded up and and full of possibilities of uh you know kind of like trying to contextualize uh you know sordid and disturbing vulnerabilities in people oh yeah oh yeah i mean it's i mean it's great stuff right like what and also like how you could be considered

crazy in one generation but three generations later yeah not or how the number of the you know the dsm has been grown and what we now know is being gay used to be mentally ill. Pathological. Yeah, pathological. I mean, you can learn a lot about us as a culture on how we see our mentally ill. Because this is a unique thing that you have.

You are the first New York Times comedy critic. That was a position that was made for you. Well, in a lot of ways, what's great is that I kind of helped make it. Like they knew they wanted to cover comedy and they had a few ideas about what they didn't want to do. But I, one of the benefits is I got to kind of map out what it would look like.

Yeah. And, but it took a while. I mean, I covered theater before that for about 10 years. Right. So how do you get into that? Because I did a little film reviewing in college with a paper. I did a little tiny bit, but the truth is I didn't go to journalism school. I didn't do that much.

I wrote a few reviews here and there in college, but everything happened by accident. Oh, yeah? Everything happened by accident. What was the first accident? I mean, I got out of, I didn't know what i wanted to do i went to this publishing course in radcliffe which which uh was recommended to me and really teaches people how to be in book publishing and i really hated it and my first published story was in salon and it was like a critique of this thing yeah of the thing you were studying of the thing i was yeah the course I did. Troublemaker. Exactly.

And that was, I enjoyed, that was the first thing I published. Then I got a job at the Jewish Forward, the newspaper, and I got fired from the Jewish Forward. For what? Well, this is, I'm responsible for the most anti-Semitic thing to appear in the august history of the Jewish Forward. Oh, yeah? Yeah. My job, I was a copy editor and i was i had one of my jobs was to type in all the letters to the editor yeah and we had this one letter to the

editor from an old lady i assume was an old lady uh in virginia responding to an article about hebrew schools like half the articles were about hebrew schools yeah and she was talking about how in her day the hebrew schools were. The rabbis were better and the students were better. And she had one sentence which said, we all knew that Micah taught us first to do justice than to love mercy. Now I'm typing, typing, typing, typing, typing, there's like tens of thousands of words. Some figure in the Bible.

I don't know. I'm bad you. So I make a typo, which then gets past all the editors and into the Jewish Forward. Instead of, we all knew that Micah taught us first to do justice, then to love mercy,

I wrote, we all knew that Micah taught us first to do justice, then to love money. So this woman picks up the paper, sees that she said under her name, calls out the editor of the Jewish Forward, I'm fired that day. And it was an honest typo?

Well, I don't know. This goes back to Freud, I guess. No, it was an honest typo, but it was a low moment for me because I didn't know what I was going to do. I was unemployed for a while. I needed to pay my rent. I mean, New York was cheaper back then, but I didn't. It was desperate times, and now it's a great story.

I love telling the story, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. I temped for a while, and then I got a job at CitySearch, which was like the first online boom. It was like time out online. And I worked as a book editor, and I did reviews here and there. And a job opened up at Time Out New York for a theater critic when I was real young. And really just, I think, probably because i grew up around theater most 22 year

olds haven't seen all of david mammoth's works you know yeah and i hadn't because i was because theater is too expensive that's that's why comedy is sort of past it in cultural relevance and uh so i had just bad no no no you know credit to me i just grew up around it so i got a job at timeout reviewing downtown stuff which is where i reviewed you for the first time the jerusalem syndrome the jerusalem syndrome and i was pretty much under the radar because i wasn't covering broadway i could i could screw up without big and it was time out which was primarily a guide yes you know i get there the pressure different. It was really just a listing magazine. Yes, yes.

And you had a little more word count than you do now. So from there, the Times back then had a Friday column for theater, news, gossip, business stuff. That was a very powerful column that had been around for a long time. That was where if you were a Broadway producer and you wanted to announce you were doing a new musical, you would break it in that column. Right.

And the guy left. Yeah. And I applied and got that job, which was the scariest year, and the year I learned the most in my life about how to be a reporter. Well, because this was an establishing that had a format in a way. Yeah.

And you had to then be this, this green horn in the world of New York theater. And you had to be brought through the, what do you call it? To run through the, the, the, not the rings, the, the, you had an obstacle course of the, well, obstacle course, but sort of like, you know, it's a baptism by fire in the politics of New York theater. Will you ever see Sweet Soul Success? Yeah. I mean, it's like that.

Everyone's lying to you and you got to, and you have this, you know, you have this column, which is everyone wants to get in, but you, and you have to, the coin of the realm is breaking news, right? So you have to, and the problem is it was at the same time the internet was was was beating the paper so you'd have to threaten producers my job is to go out to with broadway producers every day at lunch right and try to dig up stories or do if a big you know a lot of gossip i was doing gossip column stuff and uh and i was this 26 27 year old kid who you know i was just being these are the greatest

liars in the world the broadway producers right they were so uh and uh and it was the times it was very intimidating so um and i remember the first week um because basically the column i killed the column i basically this is this legendary column all sorts of great writers came out of this column uh and i remember the first week there Frank rich who was sort of running the show like the way he writes Yeah, yeah, I mean I grew up on Frank Rich. He's he's brilliant. He is real great critic that guy no question No question. He's a and but I remember he and I was obviously really intimidated by Frank rich Yeah And he said because the thing is the internet was making this column obsolete we couldn't hold

stories right so he said uh you got to save the column and his wife by the way was the greatest writer of this column ever it's like his wife is muhammad ali of this what's her name alex bristel she's just brilliant yeah so that i was always i was like a year of stress and then i did kill it so i did not save it and then i was sort of you year of stress and then I did kill it. So I did not save it. And then I was sort of- But you didn't kill it. I didn't kill it. I think the- You couldn't keep up.

I was, this is one thing I've learned over my career that you are put in some positions to succeed and you are put in some positions to fail. Now you have a lot of say in whether that happens. Yeah. But the situation is almost as important a lot of times and that was a situation where if i knew what i know now i think i could have made it work right uh but uh it was a situation that was sort of doomed uh the comedy column was a situation

set up to fail if it if it screws up it's on me right i mean i all the all the advantages well that had all the disadvantages um but i was sort of in the wilderness for a few years after that the uh and i was you know doing third string theater reviewing and that that's when i decided i was i wasn't very happy i looked to go to law third string for the time for the times yeah i mean still i was you know it was great because i was doing some of the same downtown stuff yeah which i love and still love um and then i wrote a book so then i wrote this book on horror films yeah and then when that book came out that's when the comedy job was was offered it was offered well i got a call and

there was a call that could call to kind of change your life you know yeah and i said like you know it's from the culture editor at the time john landman and he said we want to cover and you know the times had been dropping the ball on this. You know, we had never covered all these people until they got TV shows. Right. And they were doing work in New York institutions. Constantly.

Yeah, I mean, so we would cover the most obscure off-Broadway play, but we wouldn't cover Jerry Seinfeld. Yeah. And we wouldn't, or moreover, we wouldn't cover the economics of Catch a Rising Star. Right. I mean, there's all sorts of, well, we would cover the economics of Catch a Rising Star. Right. Right?

I mean, there's all sorts of... Well, we would cover the economics of Lincoln Center. Right. Why? It doesn't make any sense, right? But when... So when Louis... Especially because it was invented there, in a way.

Totally. Yeah. It was invented. It's as New York as... Sure. You could say it's as New York as... In a lot of ways, some of the greatest stories are business stories and history stories. And I've tried to write those.

Yeah. And that was one of the first decisions I made is that I didn't want it to be a column. I wanted it to do some reported stories. And I want to write about the business. I want to write about gatekeepers. And also service the city. And service the city. I wanted to cover these.

I mean, it's a fascinating world, as you know. Look, I've been listening to this podcast since the start yeah and part of what my education besides just going to clubs constantly yeah it's i mean it's a great time to be covering this field because you got shows like this in which you don't have to do any legwork and you can learn a ton of shit yeah we're here to service the critics yeah make it easier for you guys you do you do i mean when i was covering theater i had to go to sardis and you guys you do you do i mean when i was covering theater i had to go to sardis and you know i had to talk to some old guy ran the schubert theater now you just look at the wtf list it's like oh marin talked to him let's see if i can pull a

quote pretty much pretty much yeah um so uh so yeah i decided i was going to do criticism and reporting and i decided i was going to do um i reporting. And I decided I was going to do... They didn't want to cover... They didn't think you should cover like, oh, Mark Maron's got a show. We're going to review it in that one show the way we would review a dance performance. Well, it's harder because sometimes that's the only one show. Exactly. I mean, with a dance or a theater, it's the beginning of a run.

Yep. So, like, what's the point of publishing something about a show retroactively unless you can frame it in a bigger context? I mean, I'll be honest with you. I'm surprised I haven't gotten into more trouble with comedians about... I mean, there is this question that I struggle with,

which is what is a unit of comedy worth reviewing? Like, in theater, there's an opening night. You review the opening night, right? Now, in comedy, there's some of that. Like Chris, you know, there's people who have shows that you get invited to and stuff. But you also have people performing every single night at these clubs.

A lot of them are doing it to working out material. Right. At the same time, they're charging money. Yeah. And the journalistic ethic says, if they're charging money and people are going to see it uh this isn't a preview this is you know journalists you cover what's there right right but also then you have to learn the way that comedy works is that you know the comic isn't necessarily making money

if he's dropping in to do 15 minutes on a paid show and all those people are thrilled that he's there but he's not that's not that's not why he's doing it. Very true. Right. Very true. So it's a balance which I had to figure out because I want to respect

the comedian and the artist and I also need to be, you know, live up to the, you know, kind of creed of covering this field, honestly.

Yeah. And so, you know, I've sort of, it's evolved a little bit but, you know, I would try to not

write about someone who I'd seen once. Right. I would try to see, I would try to, I've sort of evolved a little bit, but, you know, I would try to not write about someone who I'd seen once. Right. I would try to see, I would try to, I thought of like Mark Maron's set as a unit. Right. As a, I mean, not one show, but I would like listen to your work. Sure. Well, that's what you're afforded in that world that, you know, was relatively unexplored before you started the column is that, you know,

with most comics, you have a sort of like really on, on a documented history to the form they're engaging in, to what part of comedy they came from, to how it plays against what used to be. I mean, there's, there is that whole place to draw from that gives it a context that is always relatively new to people,

I think, to readers. Yeah, yeah. And that's the way people, when people go see your show, they know who you are. They have this context of what you've done in the past. And that's part of what you're playing. Sometimes the jokes are riffing off that image. Sure.

So to ignore that seemed to be a mistake. So let's talk about the Letterman book a bit. Yes. How much access did you have to him? I started this book saying, I don't need to talk to him to write this book. And I said that to, I sold the publisher on that idea. And I told my friends that, and I said it for like a year and a half and essentially lying to myself.

Yeah. And I, from the beginning, they said like said like you know they were open to it they didn't say no but they i was unsure if i was gonna get it so i reported the hell out of it everything around him it turned out to work out perfectly because by the time he agreed to do the interview it was he had finished the show and he gave me he wanted to talk and i knew his you know it was almost i think you know i talked i went i've been to indiana i talked to his old friends i've been to la i talked to leave i mean i've been all over and i wasn't on a fishing expedition i knew exactly what i what i wanted to know and i knew

the things i didn't know and you and you still didn't factor him in necessarily you were good writing the book without talking to him i had written the book without but then i talked to him and it was you know it was supposed to go for an hour i went for four hours you probably could have gone for 10 hours if i had not prepared for one hour uh which was the hardest part if i could do one thing over i would prepare for a longer interview he was incredibly open direct he's a great interview and this was after he retired this is after he retired yeah and then i basically re you know i rewrote a lot of the book um um but you But I didn't change the essence of the book and the structure and the ideas and the narrative.

But a good part of it was just like, is this true? Is this true? Yes. And then once I got that done, then we talked kind of more at length. You talked about his old days as a weatherman. A little bit.

A little bit. We talked about, there's like the first chapter goes into, you know, I think one of the reasons Letterman, uh, got the tonight show so fast and got, you know,

was big so quickly is that he had a long backstory of, of performing broadcasting of broadcasting in Indiana. He was like a minor celebrity in Indiana. He had the confidence. And when he came to the comedy store, he was confident in front of a crowd. Right. Now, he wasn't seasoned as a joke teller.

Right. But that confidence, you know, the people, you know, the management company, the people at the night show saw. And so, yeah. And, you know, you could, I have a, you know, I talk about a time at Ball State when he was kind of a troublemaker.

He went to Ball State. People forget. People think Letterman is this older generation. The heart of the culture wars in the late 60s. And he was a fraternity brother in a fairly conservative frat house. But in his own kind of way, he created this culture war on the campus of Ball State. But there was a radio station which didn't play rock music. And he would introduce...

One, he would sneak rock music on. He was a DJ? He was a DJ and he would make kind of, turn the straight news, he would make up elaborate lies essentially and would piss off these like, the teachers and the bosses

and they, you know, he was eventually fired from his first broadcasting job but he kind of polarized the broadcasting campus and from that was, that relationship. I think you could see kind of echoed in how what happened with NBC.

Yeah. He has a, he's a very conservative guy on paper, right? He's Indiana, small, you know, broad,

a broad ripple, but he has a, a kind of, his impulse is to be always a reverent towards what's in front of him, particularly if it's a, a powerful institution. Yeah. But it's not an intellectual thing.

It's just his impulse is to make fun of, you know, whatever it is. Yeah, take down the big guys. Exactly. And I think one of the reasons I wrote this book is, you know, I was a huge Letterman fan as a kid. That's a very short jump to speaking truth to power. Yeah. Well, I think people today forget why letterman was great

in the to a kid seeing it in the 80s that blew my mind i when i was in college i had to watch it yep because like he'd have these guests on you're like what's he gonna do right he was confrontational yep he was you know not just irreverent but literally it was uncomfortable sometimes antagonist and he would sit there in it. This podcast, in a lot of ways, is the only thing that resembles those interviews today. It doesn't exist anymore, that kind of hostility between host and a guest

that was fascinating. I don't have that as much anymore. But there's a challenging. It's not just come on and promote your thing and do your canned story. And there was a sense that letterman was counterculture in this weird way yeah and also we forget you know back then at 12 30 at night that was real late back then there was nothing else to watch yeah and you had kids like me who grew up you know outside of new york who letterman to me

was new york cool yeah as like a nine-year-old, 10-year-old. This guy, which is weird when you think about it. Here's this guy from Indiana who's a weatherman. Yeah. And to kids like me, he seemed, there was something a little dangerous about him. Yeah. And in a way that what I've learned is, of course, many comedians had the same experience. Yeah.

And it's something that doesn't exist now because now at 1230, there's limitless options. But back then, people who were interested in something that was oppositional to show business, that was criticizing television, they would watch Letterman and he spoke in a kind of code that was really exciting. Yeah. And I think the people who are young see Letterman as this kind of grand old man. Yeah. who are young um c letterman is this kind of grand old man yeah and people who are old had or my age uh i guess i'm old they have forgotten because they hadn't seen those shows it's hard to find them relative to snl episodes sure which are replayed constantly yeah so i you know i was worried there's a long history of giant talk show stars being forgotten i mean how many people

really know jack parr yeah i had to go to the museum of broadcasting, you know, when I lived in New York to watch Jack Parr shows and, and to see, you know, weird Woody Allen appearances and to see Jonathan Winters on Jack Parr. And, you know, and then like, I had to go out of my way to watch Steve Allen. You know, uh, there was a time where I wanted to do that yeah and like yeah and with Letterman like you once you start to learn you know what you know how it compulsively he was trying to take it the the next step past Ernie Kovacs and past you know Johnny Carson but still have a certain respect for the um for the context that you know you context. That you have the mode, which is the talk show. So how can I just wreak havoc on this

without fucking with the desk in a way? Yes, yes. And then after he did that, as I see it, he made it a forum for personal expression in a way that all great artists do. Right. It became, you saw him every night for 30 years

and in his own very ironic, repressed, tightly wound way, he revealed himself. No doubt. And that's what artists do, right? And that's why I think, you know,

the title Last Down in a Late Night, I mean, that's sort of the next step for the reason Letterman, I think, should be remembered. And the reason he is, is that, you know, that's sort of the next step for the reason Letterman, I think, should be remembered. And the reason he is, is that he's a complicated eccentric.

He's a neurotic. You know, what I learned in reporting this book is Letterman's personality has got more in common with your personality than I would have thought. Right.

Even though he's, and one question I thought of is sort of like, what is the difference between like a Jewish neurotic and a Midwestern Gentile neurotic. And I think in some ways it's darker, it's harder to be a Midwestern Gentile neurotic.

Jewish neurotic, it's sort of like when people, it's hard to be a Jewish comedian for having the press not call you neurotic. Well, you have this weird relationship with self that is really the fuel of it. Like the compulsion of the Jewish idea of having to push harder to get somewhere is very hard on yourself.

So the dialogue between you and your unmet expectations I think fuels a lot of neurosis. It's inherent in it. Whereas if you're repressive by nature, I imagine a lot of neurosis it's inherent yes in it whereas you know if you're repressive by nature you know i imagine a lot of it festers more that's interesting i think that's i think that's right i think that's actually i think that's exactly it it festers and if it i think it came out only on air yeah right and only if you watched religiously. Right.

If you watch it, you could see what he thought about G.E. through, you know, a shift in the way he looked. Sure. The intonation of a line. You could see

that he was making, and you know, I go into it, that, you know, he would make jokes. You know, at one point when the strike,

the writer strike, he did this, the head of NBC sent him a toaster because he was making fun of G.E. So he did the, he stopped the show. He didn't have sent him a toaster yeah he was making fun of ge so he did the he stopped the show he didn't have any writers yeah and he made toast and he just sit there and he waited there put the toast in and that was i see like a subversive radical act he's like look you

got this tv show and this this this major national network and you're not paying you're keeping you're keeping a strike i'm just gonna sit here and make toast i'm not gonna tell a joke yeah i'm not gonna do anything i'm gonna sit here and make toast you gave me this gift and that was a great example of how a guy who's like a tightly wound you know midwestern guy can express himself very articulately to his fans yeah um as a kid that's what i related to then i i you know i kept the book is about his whole is a biography of his whole life, but it focuses on the first show and about, I try to pinpoint. The first late night show? The first late night show at NBC.

I pinpoint three different periods in that show and they're distinct aesthetically. Yeah. And I talked to everyone who worked on the show. And I think one of the fundamental beliefs, which we talked about earlier, is that I think most things written about late night hosts all rest on this assumption that I am skeptical of, which is, I think Johnny Carson said this once, where he said, it's all about the man behind the desk. If you want to figure out, understand these shows,

it's all about the man behind the desk. I don't believe that. I think that these are huge collaborative affairs. And there's writing staffss and there's production people and there's the context of the time in the network and there's a lot of brilliant people who came through this show who had a huge impact a big a big uh uh part of this book is about lettering the relationship with miriam marco yeah um that's kind of a backbone that snakes through the whole book but also though in in in speaking to carson's statement that it needs to move through that guy true that you know that you know once that that show once he

established what he would and could do you know people would write to it and and know where the risks that they could take would be received and encouraged yep but it had to be moved through the sensibility of that guy behind that desk 100 and that's why that's in part why um in the early years i do more reporting on like what the writer's room is like yeah but then because the early years he wasn't some famous guy yeah he was just some guy was a weatherman and he was you had these writers like george meyer and uh you know max and tom these guys who wanted to create the simpsons and all the stuff who didn't weren't in awe of him right but the next generation yeah they were in awe of him they were trying to figure out what he wanted so they became it as the years go on it became more and more about him yeah um

but to understand but he was he's building of course on the reputation that was created collaboratively right through him always right but um i mean that this is i tried to this is where i feel like my experience is both a critic and reporter comes into play that i tried to i began with this critical idea that he's important and we've ignored this period or we want to remember this period but then i sort of take off the critics hat put on the reporter's hat and try to approach it with open mind and be like all right let me talk to everyone I can to figure out like, how are these bits created? Where were the, you know, what, how can we explain the fact that David Letterman worships Johnny Carson? And yet to a lot of people, including myself, he seemed the antithesis of him.

I think it got to a place where, you know, you tune into the Snideshow to see the guest. I think you tune in to tonight show to see the guests i think you tune in to letterman to see him but then he would have some people on who like you wouldn't you would never see brother theodore or whatever you wouldn't see anywhere else right um and you know sandra burn i mean the guests i liked were the ones who were recurring yeah richard lewis leno burnhart brother theodore and then you know chris elliott stuff oh yeah but also i think there was something letterman you know as a kid there's no enter no performer who shaped my not just sense of humor and sensibility it's really down to the way i i talked there was a whole generation of people who imitated the way letterman the sort of ironic detached style detached style he had. He had a sensibility.

Well, yeah, and that was interesting, too, because I always tuned in for just him. And I was like, and also the other thing is is that you build a relationship with these people. And as I got older and he got older and once the CBS show sort of got its legs and then he had the heart problem, you could sort of feel that you know a vulnerability open

up in him about life and about how he engaged with people and about you know what he thought about the world there was a wisdom and a sensitivity that wasn't there before yep and then you sort of saw him slowly uh really not give a fuck anymore and that was beautiful yes yes yes yes well what i say in the book is funny because in his early days he would present the idea that he didn't give a fuck like the making the toaster is kind of like i give it but he really did give a fuck yes in his late late days yeah he really did you know he was and you're right it is something beautiful about it and it um he became this i mean he's his late period is really fascinating and he has something he became this, I mean, he's, his late period is really fascinating.

Yeah. And he has some, he became more storytelling. Yeah. He was more off the cuff. Took more time at the desk. He got political. Yeah. You know, which he was not. I mean, it was interesting to look back in the 80s.

You know, you could, you could watch Letterman and think he's conservative. He wasn't. But you could think he was. Yeah. You know, people like Rush Limbaugh loved, he listened to Rush Limbaugh. Yeah. As an 80s. Sure.

Ann Stern. Yeah. Ann Stern, who's also totally different than him, but he really respected him. So what, after spending all the time in him, in his mind and in his life, what was the takeaway of him as a human? What was surprising where you were like were like oh there's something here that i could never have anticipated well steve young who is a writer for letterman for uh decades and really brilliant guy he said something he said um everyone's born at an emotional temperature and it goes up and down but you have that temperature yeah and he said uh letterman his sort of natural state is seething with unhappiness. That's his natural state.

And I think off camera, he was often kind of a tortured guy. Oh, God. I remember the one time, like there was one time where I did the show, I think, four times. But the moment that I'm talking about was that, you know, I was going up to the floor to the dressing room. And I guess he, you know, used to run the stairs for exercise. Right. And it was just me getting off this elevator and just seeing him like, just kind of move through. Right.

And I'm like, wow. Right. What's going on there? Yeah. I mean, it's a weird position because he's the rare, I mean, I don't know, now it's different. Now you have a lot of comedians who people look to for gravitas. But he was a comedian with gravitas

like after 9-11, right? And I believe that part of the reason people really believed him when he would be soul searching is that for the first part of his career he was so detached from emotion he was so he kept that at a distance that went it's like it's like the end of the godfather when you see marlon brando play with the kid yeah everyone cries because seeing like a guy like that get emotional yeah hits you harder yeah and i think

letterman was like that letterman was never like the he wouldn't be gushing yeah on the show so when he did which was you know at the end of his career he would do it more or the end of his time at the show yeah it really had a disproportionate impact yeah and also the way he handled that that blackmailing situation was spectacular but it was spectacular yeah i read about that in some ways i mean i say i think I say it's one of his greatest performances. He just copped to it and then leveled the guy's ability to do anything. My thought after that is like, so what? He's not the president.

He's a fucking entertainer. And he did this thing. Yep. Yep. Yep. He did. Actually, I'll tell you something. I haven't said this, but I had the craziest experience in writing this book yeah was so it's all i get the interview

with letterman yeah and i show up early and i go across the street to like the obon pan and i'm waiting and i'm nervous yeah um i had that with springsteen i was at a duncan donuts down the street it's bad when you're early you got to kill that time right you don't know what to do and i uh so i'm at the obon pan i make up something to buy so i could sit and i'm sitting down the street. It's bad when you're early. You got to kill that time, right? You don't know what to do. And so I'm at the Au Bon Pain. I make up something to buy so I could sit. And I'm sitting there. And I'm like, where am I?

And this could be like my fever dream. Yeah. I notice what looks like that guy who blackmailed him. Yeah. I think his name is Joe Halderman, if I'm getting right, was sitting at that Au Bon Pain across the street from where I was going to do the interview and I was

I didn't trust my own sight like is this my nervousness but I must have stared at him enough that he noticed me staring at him

and started like who is this guy and stared at me back and so I just got shook up so I went to the bathroom and I came back and I swear

you know it wasn't far from CBS where that guy worked I don't know or he used to work and then I just I thought it was him and I went out and I swear it, you know, it wasn't far from CBS where that guy worked. I don't know the, or he used to work. Uh, and then I just, I thought it was him and I went out and did the interview, but I've to this day, I mean, cause I was like, how crazy would that be if that guy was right there? His greatest antagonist. Um, anyways, I'll, I'll, I'll maybe, yeah, maybe you constructed it to get you jacked up. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Well, great. Well, congratulations on the book. And I guess you told me before we started you were just in North Carolina a few days before me. You're following Rock on the Road, seeing how that comes together or what? Yeah, well, I wanted to see his first tour in nine years. It's good. It's not the funniest tour I've seen, but it's his most personal. So in that sense, it was as compelling. And he's probably just trying, he's probably building too.

He's probably still working it. Yep. I mean, it was, he talked about, he had divorced last year. Yeah. And so he talked about that pretty frankly. And, you know, I don't usually, Chris Rock has talked about something personal, but I think of him as more of a political or social commentator. So seeing him open up a bit was really interesting.

So, all right, so you're following him. And I recently went back and read your Lenny Bruce piece because I thought I was mad at you, but it turns out I wasn't. I'm mad at Patton about... Poor, I think Patton took some shit for that quote. Yeah. I actually, let me defend Patton Oswalt. Okay. I think he was i wouldn't

just throw him under the bus i think he was speaking for a number of people no i know but see the the weird thing is it's sort of not unlike not unlike bill hicks in a way okay right who patten would never say that about right is that you know my favorite bill hicks joke out of everything he's fucking ever done, really, is a very short joke where he says to the girl he's dating, he's been dating a girl like a year and a half, he says, I guess it's time to pop the big question, why are we still going out? And I think what gets missed with Lenny is that he had a lot of great jokes like that.

Yeah. He had a lot of jokes that weren't just connected to the times or dated or irreverentially stream of consciousness. True. Like, he had solid fucking jokes. Yes. And I think they hold up. So I get mad when people contextualize him as this guy that didn't make sense. And they watch that one fucking piece of film that is him at his worst.

The only thing that- I listened to all Lenny Bruce stuff. I think it's an interesting subject to examine, the question of how comedy ages. And I don't think it's the same as how great somebody is. No, I agree. There's better comedy that ages worse

and worse comedy that ages better. Yeah. And the context is so important. And you can't entirely... I think what Patton was saying was sort of like, just as like a consumer, I listen to some of the stuff and it doesn't make me laugh. The impetus for that story actually was this question. I thought, what I think is unfair, there's a kind of prejudice out there. The idea is that comedy doesn't

age as well as other art forms. And I was, and I was thinking about it a lot. I'm still, I still think about a lot of this, like what are the stuff from long ago that seemed like they haven't aged a day? Um, and, uh, you know, I, I, I, you know, I think Bob Newhart doesn't change a day. I think there are answers to that. I think Lenny Bruce has, you're absolutely right. He's got real jokes and a lot of his stuff is still really funny. I mean, I feel like, you know, there's even, and there's some stuff which is the politics have changed,

but you could still get it enough. But I think there's no question that listening him to now in the, in the current context, you lose something just like you lose something when you listen, you see Letterman now. I mean, uh, um, right now, what do you, what do you lose is sort of the question, the, uh, but. Yeah. Oh, that was, yeah, that's interesting.

You know, and I, and I agree with you. I also, I think that a lot of times comedy that if it's not visual and it's just audio, you i also i think that a lot of times comedy that if it's not visual and it's just audio you um you know you you listen to it a few times and you don't really see the need to listen to it again whereas you watch a movie over and over again that's true uh or you'll see a play with a different cast over and over again but once you've heard the bit three times see how many fucking times can you listen you know wait a few years right right so the challenge now in the political climate which we talked about it's going to be interesting to see how that unfolds are you on the pulse of that are you

yeah formulating ideas you know it's hard because sometimes i feel like not writing about trump is silly because everyone's thinking about and then i have ideas that have to do with trump and it seems silly to write about it through the context of comedy. I've struggled a little bit to figure out the way to, but I mean, I've done a lot of report. I've talked to a lot of comedians about what it's like to perform post-election. What are you hearing? The first couple of weeks, people were saying things that was like, they were comparing it to after 9-11. I mean, it's people like, you know, Ted Alexandro and Judah Freelander. They were both

from the sense that the audience was upset people against Trump, but also there were some pro-Trump people who were talking back to the stage. And then you had, you know, Amy Schumer booing and all this stuff. And now I think it's going to be really interesting to see the first couple specials that come out that are really digging into what it means to be Trump. I mean, I think it's going to be really interesting to see the first couple specials that come out that are really digging into what it means to be trauma. I mean, I think in, I just saw a preview of a drug, Carl Michaels,

first special. And the first line is something like, it's a closeup of his face. Actually really interesting. I haven't seen a closeup. And he says like, are we okay? As the first,

and it's just like a tight closeup. So I think, you know, if you look back at Bush, you had guys like David Cross who made i think you know if you look back at bush you had guys like um david cross sure who made their you know made their stand-up bones on really strong bush material i i'll be interested to see who really figures out a way to go at trump he's a unique uh or or to address the the the response to it. But I mean, in the short term,

I feel like one of the great things about stand-up is that you can react to current events immediately. Yeah. And you can talk in an incredibly polarized climate where the left and the right don't talk to each other. Stand-up comedy is one of the few areas where people from both sides are often in the same room. And that's a powerful thing.

And I mean, the fact that people walk out, booed Amy Schumer, says something about that we're not so fragmented that she's not drawing Trump people. Where if you go to the theater, if you're doing a political play at the public theater, you know, there's no one who's going to boo you if you're criticizing Trump. The only way the only way you get booed or get or

disrupt people is criticizing the left well i do hope that it continues to cross-pollinate and that the bubbles don't become so secure that we are completely living in two different countries and i think the thing that's difficult is even with bush is that you know the people that were you know in charge with him were evil but they were pros you know this is a whole new agenda and it doesn't seem to have a lot to do with uh with um you know dialogue right no true and on top of that these people are not only uh amateurs And on top of that, these people are not only amateurs, but a lot of them come from the same world that entertainers come from. I mean, you look at Steve Bannon, he made movies. Great.

A bitter screenwriter. Yeah. There's Mnuchin, whatever his team, the Secretary of Treasuries. He had money in other Hollywood films. Oh, I don't know. We don't have to get into the specifics of it. We'll see what happens, right? Yep. That was good, man. That was a great talk, Jason. This was super fun to get into the specifics of it. We'll see what happens, right? Yep.

That was good, man. That was a great talk, Jason. This was super fun, Mark. Thanks for doing it. Yeah, great time. I enjoyed that chat immensely. So, yeah, I got dates coming up. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour. I'll be in Boulder and Denver this weekend.

And then the following week, I'm doing a bunch of shows in Portland. I do not know where they're at ticket-wise. I do know I had to add a show. Boulder Theater, April 7th. Paramount Theater, April 8th in Denver. Then the Aladdin on April 21st and 22nd. I believe there's two shows. Yeah, check in to see if there's

tickets for that second show. And then I got Milwaukee, Madison, Minneapolis, coming up Philly and D.C. And that's the end of it. The end of my stand-up career. But yeah, WTFpod.com slash tour is where you can get that information. I will...

What am I going to do? Oh, it's also that. That's powered by Squarespace. I'm just going to throw in a gratuitous tag to our sponsor because that's one of the perks. It's one of the perks. I'm going to, I'll play a little guitar on the new monster. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 Boomer lives! Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th

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