WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 801 - Anne Hathaway / Aimee Mann

Episode Date: April 9, 2017

Marc tries not to fanboy out too much with Anne Hathaway in the garage. While he attempts to keep it together, they talk about her path from party girl to motherhood, the lessons gleaned from messed up relationships, dealing with the aggressive anonymity of the Internet, and the real monsters in her new movie Colossal. Plus, Aimee Mann just released what Marc thinks is her best album, so she stops by to play one of the songs from it. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark

maron this is wtf this is my podcast very exciting day today you want me to tell you why i will tell you why maybe you don't know this about me but um today is uh ann hathaway day ann hathaway was in my garage also i don't want to give short shrift to anybody, but Amy Mann stopped by and played a new song from her new album, also today, coming up shortly, delivered into your head. But for those of you who have been with me pre-WTF, back to the break room live days, somewhere in the 2007-2008 area,

when my life was falling apart, I was working in New York and I was a shattered emotional mess doing this streaming video show that no one watched, except for those of you who knew the show. How you doing, you 1724 people but at some point i i saw rachel getting married and that's a jonathan demi film i believe yes starring anne hathaway and i was so taken with her performance and with her that that i developed a uh a kind of all right maybe maybe it was a little bit of an obsession. I'll admit, it was a while ago. I think I can admit that.

I will tell her about it. I will be straight with it. But from that point on, I just loved her. I loved her work. I loved her. And it became sort of a running theme on that show for the idea of her maybe stopping by to do an interview on break room

live at the old air america studios on sixth avenue that nobody watched could not have been on her radar at all but i insisted that there was an outside chance that it was now i don't know really what's going on out there in the world around this particular movie star and actress, Anne Hathaway. But I love her, and I'm a huge fan. And I believe she works hard, and she does amazing work always. And I also believe that if you don't like her, especially with some sort of strange intensity, it says more about you. There's something wrong with you.

Look within. I guess I'm just telling you this because I was excited to have her here, and that might read a bit. I'm not one for hiding the fanboy-ness on occasion, but it was great to meet her and talk to her and the new movie colossal is an interesting movie i had to rethink the whole thing i watched it once and then i had to go back and think about it more i'll tell her i don't need to tell you um and as i said amy man is here who this song she plays is fucking excellent i i personally believe that her new her new record uh mental illness is her best record you know what i'll tell her that too

i'm gonna tell her that that's what i'm gonna do so i just got back from uh denver and boulder me and uh the american original that is dean delray uh did a couple shows there. I like traveling with Dean because we like to do the same things. We enjoy eating food. Now we're both relatively healthy, but he's different. He's got the, you know, I was almost diabetic, no sugar, no starch thing. And I've got the no meat thing because I have high cholesterol. But, you know, we're in the same ballpark. We both like vinyl, and, you know, we will go look at clothing.

We will go look at jeans, shirts, jackets, and bags. So, as I said, the crowds were great, and maybe I didn't say that, but I'm saying it now. See, I'm actually a little filled with a tingly nervousness just to introduce the Anne Hathaway show. It's fucking ridiculous. I'm a grown-ass man, okay? And don't get any fucked up ideas.

I am in a healthy relationship with a wonderful woman who paints, and she is married to a nice man, and they have a baby. This is just, this is kind of residual uh remnants of of uh of uh all right all right it's a crush okay i said it all right so let me talk about this because this is sad news Sad news. Last week, we lost a couple of comedians. And one, it's always tragic when people die. But one was just starting to come into her own. And, you know, it was just, it was really shocking to me and jarring. Because when I was in Austin,

this is what, a week ago or so on April 1st, I worked with this woman. Her name was sadly LaShonda Lester. And I did not know her. I was sent a few videos of people in the Austin area. I looked at like four or five different comics. And without a doubt, after seeing her like eight minutes set, I was like, that's her. She's authentic. She's real. She's got her own voice. She's talking about her life. She's hilarious. And I booked her for that show. And I met her on April 1st for the first time. She's a lovely

person, a sweet person, but just deep. And she gets up there and she talked about her life and she had health issues and she talked about them on stage. And I had the same feeling when I when I watched her live as I did when I saw her on that video that that, you know, just just a great comic, you know, an honest comic and authentic. honest comic uh and and and authentic and that's really the best kind and it's a great loss to the to the comic community it would have been great to see what she could have done with herself she was getting ready to do a comedy central special and um just fucking sad and and uh you know my heart goes out to to her family and the the Austin comedy community because she was something else. And it's really sad. And it was really shocking. And also, tragic, but 91 is not a bad age to die at.

That's a good run. Don Rickles is dead. He was old. He was great. He had a long, amazing amazing career a rich life and and he was i never got to talk to him but i tried but he was really one he was really one of the funniest people ever he was one of the guys that that planted the seed in my brain that i think ultimately led me to become a comic quite honestly because i remember watching him when i was a kid

i remember watching him on it was like an hour special when they used to do those like variety shows but it was an hour special and i remember these weird lines like i think the gig the the gimmick was he was on stage he was talking to someone in the audience which was also him dressed like a schnook and i remember the the line was um nice suit did that come with two pairs of pants and a yo-yo? I don't know why I remember that, but it's hilarious. It doesn't even make sense, really. He just had this amazing timing and that intensity. He had this intensity that was barely hiding this rage.

And, of course, to me and to everybody who loved him, that made him very endearing. I mean, I used to love watching him on the d martin roasts he was so fucking funny so fucking funny there's one line i remember where they're on the dais and uh you know don's i don't know if he's at the podium or just further down the dais and jimmy stewart at that point is old the older man and don leans over and looks down at Jimmy and goes, Jimmy, I spoke to the family. You're doing fine. I just love the guy.

And it's sad. But he did live a good long life. And I got to be honest with you. You know, to dismiss Don Rickles as being insensitive or incorrect somehow is a real failure to contextualize him properly. And if you think that, you're a fucking hockey puck. He was one of the best, if not the best, of his generation. I loved him, and I'm very sorry I never got to talk to him.

We tried a bit. We tried. Amy Mann and I go way back. I've been a fan. I've been a friend at different points in our lives. I have not seen her in a long time. I was thrilled to have her on the show and catch up. And when I got a copy of the new album, I was like, holy shit, this is fucking amazing. She better bring her goddamn guitar. And she did. This is me and Amy Mann and she's doing a song from her new album called Mental Illness that's available now wherever you get your music. business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the

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courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Stuff. Amy Mann. I don't think, what, have you been avoiding me? Did you, I mean.

Have you been wandering around and I. I don't know i don't go we don't first of all we're not in the same circles because there there are no circles what are the circles i don't there's not any anymore there's no circles there there was uh there was some circles for a while and then some concentric circles and then the center broke apart and then everybody kind of went their way and had kids and got jobs or something i don't. There was a time where people hung out. Maybe people still do. I'm not one of them.

There has to be a place to hang out. Exactly. It used to be the old Largo, which was a long time, our backyard. That's right. You still there? In the backyard?

No, in the house. In that house? Yeah, the backyard looks great. Does it? Yeah, you should come over. We totally redid it. It looks fantastic. All right, maybe I'll come over in the summer. Yeah. And now that Yeah, you should come over. We totally redid it. It looks fantastic All right, maybe I'll come over in the summer. Yeah, and now that I'm old it'll be less awkward and make the steak tips

Sure. Oh my god. They were so good. Do it do whatever you I'll do whatever. It'd be nice to socialize Are you a hermit now? I don't know if I'm a hermit I just don't know where people have time to do everything I mean, I don't know where when people say did you watch all 90 of those things? I'm like where the fuck did you- I know where you get the time. And I'm self-employed, but I still don't have any time. I got a couple hours today, so I went to the doctor and I got some skin tags frozen. Very exciting.

See, as you get older, your life is more occupied with just maintenance. Yeah. No, medicals, no. I'm totally with you. I'm like, when am I going to find time to get that dumb blood test so they can check my cholesterol? Sure. That's exactly right. Well, I'll go go do that and then when you find out the results and they're not quite right then you have a project yeah it's like how do i get that down

what do i got to eat yeah yeah shop for specific things i guess those steak tips are off the menu now for now they are off the menu damn it god damn it is right bring this up i know i i've been okay without eating i didn't i found that i didn't eat that much red meat to begin with. So I'm like, and it's kind of nice to eat fish. It makes me go. See, that's another thing I do now. I go to Fish King in Glendale that has fresh fish and they service the Armenian community and people that need fresh fish. So it's good.

And I got a guy there who I tip and he takes care of me and gives me good fish. Wait, you grease the fish guy? Sure. Old school. You got to grease the fish guy. It's nice. You have a very involved and intricate life, I feel. So yeah, that's why you're not hanging around backstage at Laura's.

I'm a lunatic who likes to shop at three places for specific things. Where do you shop? What is your process? My husband does the marketing in our house. Oh, does he? Yeah, he does the marketing and the cooking. Mr. Penn goes out and does everything? That is the only time he goes out because he is a hermit.

He is a hermit. Yeah. But this record, that must have taken you some time. I don't want to talk out of school or be weird or not know because I've listened to, I can't say that I'm completely familiar with everything you've done, but I think this is like your best record. Thank you. Do you? I really love this record that I'm completely familiar with everything you've done, but I think this is like your best record. Thank you.

Do you? I really love this record. I'm really thrilled with this record. And, you know, part of it is because it is, what's the record I would make if I didn't care about how people received it? It's the, you know, acoustic, sad, depressing songs about the weirdos I know. Well, I mean, I just like like i've listened to a lot of your records at different points in my life but for some reason i put this one on the other day and

i'm like well this is like mature kind of uh stuff that she wants to be doing thank you i didn't feel any of the uh you know like like me thing yeah yeah yeah no exactly that's exactly right there's no it's like no you're not going to buy it. We all know that. So I'm going to just do what I want to do. No, but some of these songs are great. Poor Judge is great. Philly Sinks is great.

And I only went through it once in a half, one and a half times. Rollercoasters is good. A lot of the themes, the Amy Mann themes, those troubled codependent relationships. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. We love those. We love it. Mark, that what one of the

things we have in common oh i'm we're so into it i'm but i'm i'm kind of level i'm good i mean i'm in a pretty level thing yeah no i'm not not no no crazy lately well it's hard to believe but i've hands off well i mean i i don't know it's i don't even know if it's, I wouldn't call it recovered as much as exhausted. Yeah. Because at some point, like it must be a relief, I'm assuming, just to write about these things and reflect. I don't know your life, but I don't know how insane you are. Is there any insanity okay? It's, you know, they're always, everyone's crazy is the problem. And they're always crazy satellites that are, you know, that orbit you for a while.

Well, let me put it another way. Or vice versa. How much engaged drama. Yeah, there's crazy everywhere. We're all crazy, but it doesn't mean you have to do the dance. Yeah, that's the work I do is how to, you know, how to set boundaries. What does the boundary look like? Where do I set it?

What does setting it look like? It's all that stuff. I know you're exhausted just hearing that sentence. Well, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I don't do much. It's like, there's your boundary. No go. Not doing it. Can't.

Sorry. Not available. All turned off in there. Decline. Yeah. That resource is not available right now. I cannot be your battery, nor can you be mine yeah well that's good i guess but now is this album called mental illness and i'm not a rock critic and and i you know and i have to struggle to even listen to lyrics because i'm you know dumb

melody guy and riff guy but i listen to all of them but is there is there an arc is there a theme is this a when you call something mental illness did you see it as a whole piece because there's a nice manageable number of songs on here Amy man

I was so relieved when I looked at the CD in my car I'm like oh my god this is the last song wow there's not 90 songs

on this CD nobody wants 90 songs why do people do it then I don't because they're trying to give them their money's worth I don't want my money's worth no make a record i went just under my money's worth 11 songs yeah yeah did were there more uh there were a couple more but you know i felt like this

these are the ones that made the grouping the mental illness grouping uh you know some of them there was a couple there were like yeah there was song about, it was like a murder ballad, which I guess, you know, I guess we qualify. Sure, a murder ballad. But it didn't really fit in. Like old-timey murder ballad? Yeah, from the point of view of the corpse. Oh, of a specific murder?

No, just a creepy, I don't know, just a creepy thing that came to me. I don't know what was going on. It wasn't based on some weird folk hero you're trying to create? No. It was called Suwannee River, and I just had this image of it. It's beyond depressing. Oh, yeah. Image of a corpse at the bottom of the river.

Ooh. That's lonely. With the silt and mud and the dance trees. With the little fishies eating it? Yeah. Ah. Anyway, that didn't make the record. Wow.

Well, that sounds like it could have been. I drew the line at Parker. Was, that didn't make the record. Wow, well, that sounds like it could have been. I drew the line at Parker. Was that the dance number on the record? But what about the theme? Did you feel like there was a theme, or was that something you kind of put on it on the end? I felt like while I was writing this record, or just before, I did,

I was having encounters with people that there were a little more specifically could be classified, you know, not just sort of everyday crazy, you know, people with real mental, you know. Like people in your life or just people at the store or people? People, yeah, people I intersected with. Yeah? Yeah. But. Yeah, it's kind of, it's wild when that happens, isn't it?

Yeah. yeah yeah but yeah it's kind of it's wild when that happens isn't it yeah what's more wild is when you find out someone you've known for years is like that day you're like oh shit yeah you're much more fucked up than i ever imagined yeah yeah some of those yeah yeah like oh you're taking lithium wow wow i mean like no judgment obviously because you know yeah because you and i are about as crazy as we can be yeah but then what good, they're medicating if they need that. But you just didn't know that that person was, the poles were that separated. Yeah. Or rather, it explained some stuff. Sure.

Sure. Well, it should explain that, gee, this could have been a lot worse. Yeah. I know. I guess that's one highlight of finding out someone's on medicine. It's like, thank you. Yeah. That answers a lot of questions. Oh, I medicine. It's like, thank you. Yeah, that answers a lot of questions. Oh, I thought you just had a lot of energy.

Like, didn't sleep very much and talked a lot. You were very creative. Oh, he's not doing his lithium right then, if that's still happening. If he's still up for a few days with the big ideas. But what was this thing you did with Ted Leo? Ted and I had, or we still have, a band called The Both,

and we made, wrote and recorded a record right after my last record. My last record was called Charmer, and then we, he, we went on tour with each other. He opened for me.

Yeah. And we became really good friends. That was the first time? Like that recently? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was a couple, three years. Because you guys are sort of the same orbiting people to me. and we became really good friends. That was the first time? Like that recently? Yeah. I mean, it was a couple, three years. Because you guys were sort of the same morbid people to me.

I knew him and I knew his music, but he was doing a solo thing and as I was watching the solo thing, I was like, I feel like if I put bass to this, it could be like I sort of heard how a duo would sound. And I was really eager to play bass again and that was just super fun. And it like, I sort of heard how a duo would sound. And I was

really eager to play bass again, and that was just super fun. And it was, I don't know, I also think that I'm really in the mood to collaborate with people. I don't have that like, I gotta prove that I'm a great songwriter all on my own. Every word has to be mine. And it's really fun to collaborate with people. And you're playing bass? Yeah. So it's just bass

and he's on acoustic? Yeah. No, he's on electric. Oh, really? And when we tour, we have a drummer. Oh, you do? So it's a power trio, yeah. But we do a lot of shows, just the two of us. And you're writing together as well? Yeah. Have you recorded?

Yeah, we did an album. Called The Both. The Both. How was that? It was, I love it. Now I have to get that now. Yeah. Now you're two behind.

I'm plenty behind. But like Ted, I knew years ago briefly in New York, and I haven't really listened to his stuff in a long time either. He's a good pop guy. He's a great, I mean, he's a really good songwriter, and his guitar playing is so interesting. Yeah. His soloing is so interesting.

It's melodic, but it has this sort of punky thing that feels like it's about to fall apart in a really interesting way uh so yeah i'm i'm really i'm really into him you know so it's a it's fun to do a power trio wow so because he can hold up his end yeah well who are the people on this record are they your regular crew or jonathan colton is is on it uh because jonathan is does like a a lot or he's like a little um we wrote a couple songs together. Really? I wrote a song with this guy, John Roderick, who's-

Which songs did you write with Jonathan? Colton? Roller Coasters and Patient Zero and Why Am I Forgetting? Oh, Good For Me. That Philly Sinks, is that about a guy that's like the same guy from every song you've ever written? The dry drunk who now is's like sex and love addict yeah right that guy the recurring theme so there is a through line there's you know these people are endlessly fascinated to me really yeah oh maybe that's the difference between you and me my fascination it it uh wanes yeah well you know somebody it's nice to to have a

bit of a distance instead of like right well sometimes it's just sort of like again yeah really like i don't i can't do it anymore yeah and like they become easier people become easier as they become more predictable yeah but that implies like if you stay in those kind of engagements so that implies something about you you know oh absolutely i find myself in the same kind of dynamics over and over i mean you know but you have to look at it like here's an opportunity to practice uh you know i'm gonna use this guy that knows me one way and act totally different and see how that goes yeah well oh that didn't go well now i'm back in the old shit yeah i mean i just you know a lot of it is like practicing like okay practicing boundaries and like you said sometimes the boundary is like i can't do i can't you know i can't know you yeah yeah i can't sometimes i can't even open emails that's how tight my

boundaries are yeah i can't do it just don't even throw that one right away thank god there's like uh you know like with texting and that kind of stuff i don't know what happened but i just became one of those people that goes through my text and i'm like holy shit i didn't answer that you think you answer it in your head yeah like oh yeah okay i'll do that yeah here's the answer in my head yeah and then it doesn't then just sits there for a week yeah and uh i'm sad and also elevated and excited that i'm one of those people now that i'm the person you can text in a week later I'll be like oh what's up yeah and then you're going you fucking asshole I think that's probably good I have that like I could have answered this in 30 seconds and you know which is terrible if you're driving or doing anything or trying to

have any kind of life yeah I needed a week to tell you I couldn't come over. Yeah, that's right. So now what happens now? Do you go out on the road? I'm going out on the road April 20th to May 13th. With this band? Yeah, it is pretty much that band. But when you go now, do you have these fans that have sort of aged with you? Yeah.

These people that have been coming for 20 years. Yeah, some of them. Yeah, like, hey. And you're like, oh, yeah. How's it going? Yeah. Yeah, there's some diehard fans that, you know. It's nice, right? In a way.

Other than you can see your own mortality reflected in them. I think it's really sweet. I'm surprised people don't, like, how are you not sick of me? Right. But then it's challenging because they come, but then't like how are you not sick of me right but then it's it's challenging because they come but then they say sort of you know they say those slightly passive-aggressive compliments like no it's it's a lot different than the last one yeah yeah uh-huh like what do you mean no no no no it's good no it's good well thank you i like it oh i liked it nice to see you too what song do you play when you play

songs from this record uh this will be the first time i have ever played a song from this record i'm gonna try it out i'm gonna play this song patient zero because uh because i sort of know it even though i think i'm i think i'm gonna get take take my lyric crib sheet just in case. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Jay Maskis has an entire book of everything he's ever written. Yeah, I have that somewhere. I mean, it's a little heavy to carry around. As we get older, you're going to have to pull that out. Why leave it to chance? Well, you can just dill in it and just garble your way through things.

All right, here, I'll shut down and we'll set up. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down.

I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down.

I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down.

I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down.

I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down.

I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down.

I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. I'll shut down. Like a hero When you landed Someone carried you back From here on out You're a patient's hero

Smelling ether As they hand you the rack Life is good You look around And think I'm in the right neighborhood But honey you just moved in Life is grand And wouldn't you like to have a go All right, neighborhood, but honey, you just moved in. Life is grand, and wouldn't you like to have it go as planned?

Go as planned. Hip, hip, hooray, hocus pocus. With some magic, you can fly through the air When you're the guy pulling focus There are people who will wish you weren't there Life is good, you look around And think I'm in the right neighborhood But honey, you just moved in. Life is grand. And wouldn't you like to have a go? As planned. Go as planned. Go west, young man, go west.

Young men go west, take a real screen test Doesn't count as a job well done The locusts had their day, the suckers pay a pay Carmen Stern would probably pull that trigger for fun And in the hills where hope is such a constant companion Close enough to almost touch The lights of a canyon The lights of a canyon The news filtered over the transom That a villain ended up with a car

You paid your respects like a ransom To a moment that was doomed from the start Life is good, you look around And think I'm in the right neighborhood But honey, you don't belong Life is grand And wouldn't you like to have it go as wild Go as wild

And in the hills where hope is such a constant conga Close enough to almost touch the lights of the canya The lights of the canya The lights of the car Did I start clapping too soon? No, it was perfect. Thank you. It sounded so good. I really love this record.

Thank you, Mark. I'm very happy for you. So what is, with something like this, this album, when you do a single, what is a single on this one, in your mind? You know, there really isn't a single. I have a couple of songs I made videos for because I just had ideas for videos.

Doesn't work like that anymore, really. Yeah, this song there's a video for, and I just made a video for the first song on the record, Goose Snow Cone. Now, can I ask you a dumb question? Mm-hmm. Because I'm trying to be more lyrically sensitive. Mm-hmm.

And I know that like some you know poetry is poetry and you know it means what you want it to mean sometimes and you know you get whatever emotion you get out of it but um what what is a goose snow cone well it's a dumb thing that really existed only in my mind and I was going to replace it with something but I couldn't think of a thing to replace it with um i mean i feel like you will relate to this a little bit there's a a cat that is that belongs to a friend of mine yeah the cat is often in uh their instagram account yeah and um and she's white and fluffy and uh i was on tour and feeling really homesick and i saw a picture of this cat with its little white, fluffy, snowball-like face.

Right. And so I was writing this song about being homesick and sort of lonely, and it was snowing. I was in Ireland, and it was snowing and depressing. But I couldn't figure out what to replace it with. Right. So I just was like, fuck it. I'm going to just have to explain it every time people ask.

You think people will ask? Yeah. They already have? Yeah, they it. I'm going to just have to explain it every time people ask. You think people will ask? They already have? Yeah, they ask. Goose snow cone. Because you can't imagine what it is. Well, yeah, because you like a snow cone. That takes you somewhere. And you're like, what's a goose snow cone?

But what do you say generally other than just that? Can't you just say, hey, well, don't fucking bother me. It's poetry, man. Yeah, I get to have some kind of leeway it means whatever i want it to me you're the songwriter it's about a cat so i've made the video about the cat the cat the cat that explains everything is in the video a lot of good turns of phrase some smart wise stuff on this record nice seeing you holy shit it always amazes me when performers come in here and just knock it just kill it with the one take business man i can't get through a whole song but i'm not a professional musician

i don't do it for a living and just i when they lock in when especially amy and this happened twice when she locks in it's like oh my god i'm just sitting here just just listening trying to not look directly at her uh in awe of the amazing sound and singing she it was she's great the new record is called mental illness so here we go this is it. Anne Hathaway came over here and sat in here, right over there. The new movie that she's in is Colossal. It's now playing in New York and L.A. It opens in theaters across the country this Friday, April 14th. And I think I kept it together during this interview.

I'll preface it with that. And that I think she's great. For real. All right, this is me and Anne Hathaway. I mean, I know Glendale. I've worked in Glendale. I've been to Glendale. I go to Glendale sometimes. There's parts of Glendale I mean, I know Glendale. I've worked in Glendale. I've been to Glendale. I go to Glendale sometimes.

There's parts of Glendale I like, but I don't know if I would just blanketly say I like Glendale. What sort of things do you blanketly like? Like geographically? Sure. I like Northern California. I can go blanket on Northern California, generally speaking. Washington State along the coast, I like Northern California. I can go blanket on Northern California, generally speaking. Washington State along the coast, I like. New Mexico. Why am I talking so much?

What about you? I like Northern California as well. Yeah. Okay, I've got a blanket one, the ocean. Really? Blanket, love the ocean. Yeah, I mean, I don't think i could live without it but i don't find myself going there much do you find yourself like how long you lived in la uh off and

on since i was 16 all right do you like do you take the day and go i'm going to the ocean well i can't in la because i'm extremely pale and the amount of like stuff you have to bring with you just is it is just irritating what about the trip itself the trip itself is irritating but when i'm on the east coast i make it a point to go to the beach a lot oh yeah where you like long beach or like asbury park where you uh asbury park i've been to but i go to cape may new jersey okay oh well you're like jersey girl right yeah well i was born born in Brooklyn, but raised in New Jersey. New Jersey. I'm born in New Jersey.

Where? Jersey City. I love having Jersey in common with people. I'm from Milburn. I'm trying to think where Milburn is because I got out at like six, but my grandparents- That's when I got in. Oh, really? Yeah.

My mom's family, Pompton Lakes, which is by Wayne and Morris County. Yeah, I played soccer against all of those towns. Really? Mm-hmm. Were you a big soccer player? Growing up, I mean, I was exceptionally mediocre, but I did play a lot. Yeah? Yeah, my dad worked really hard as a lawyer.

To make you a boy? Clearly. He succeeded, like like a little bit. But no, he worked really hard as a lawyer in Manhattan. And I talked to him about it recently. And he said, I made a choice as a lawyer that whatever it meant for my career, I was always going to be home on the weekends. And the best way for him to spend time with all of us, because me and my two brothers, was through soccer. And he would ref our games.

Sometimes he was our coach. He was just soccer. Right. And he would ref our games. Sometimes he was our coach. Yeah. He was just an involved parent. But I don't know that it's something I would have chosen if my older brother hadn't. My older brother's really good at it. Still? I don't know that it's something I would. He doesn't play as much anymore because he is a kid.

Right. But before he had a kid, he was playing in like a grown-up league. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. So it stuck with him. Yeah. Like those dudes who play hockey. Yes.

Yeah. Do you play a sport? No. No. I think I'm physical enough. I think I can handle hockey. Yes. Yeah. Do you play a sport? No. No. I think I'm physical enough. I think I can handle it, but I'm not great with competition. I don't like to lose,

and everything's very life and death for me. I know. You too? Oh, yeah. It's like I'd rather, it's really immature, but I'd almost rather forfeit the game than go through the humiliation.

I've gotten to a place where I can play like parlor games at parties. Like I'm no longer an unpleasant charades player. But I am a brutally. You mean one that talks? That's not how you play. Yeah, I know. I think I've become, I've made friends with my competitiveness. But, oh, but deep down, it's savage.

Yeah, it's good to be competitive. But at some point, it's important to learn the lesson of losing like a person. Oh, yeah. That it's not the, you know, it doesn't indicate anything about your being if you lose. You're right. I remember, you know, going back to soccer for a second, like losing a game and crying. Right.

And I think that I've talked about this with other people, and I don't have kids, but I think that the most important thing you could teach them is how to lose with some dignity so they can at least enjoy life. Yeah. And also, you know, because I'm talking about myself, I can say this. Yeah. I was crying because I thought it reflected on me.

And so rather than think about my teammates, I was thinking about myself. It's a pretty narcissistic thing to do. Well, right. As long as it wasn't like I did it, I'm the one that lost the game. I could create that narrative, though. Oh, right. I was a pretty self-absorbed teenager. Really?

Shockingly. Not anymore, though. For a teenager. I mean, I have moments. But I'm a parent now so i feel like i can't uh that self-absorption doesn't really have room in my life uh-huh how's that going being a parent being less self-absorbed i mean like i said i got moments you're like a new parent i'm a new parent yeah like a year old or something wow so you're like

in it this is a whole new world. When did you shoot that movie? Like right after you had a kid? While I was pregnant. Four months pregnant when we made this. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. I was really happy the reaction my director had.

What did he say? Well, because I called him and he said, you know, oh my gosh, this is amazing. He spent five minutes just being happy for me. And then he went, oh, wait a minute. What does that mean for the film? Can you do it? And I said, well, I'd like to do it if you'll have me. Here are the sweaters you'll be wearing.

Well, and he said, your characters are drunk. You're bloated. It's perfect. Yeah, yeah. And it actually does work. It does read that way. And it was fun. I ate so many muffins.

Really? Oh, yeah. Because you're feeding the kid, too. Fe it was fun. I ate so many muffins. Really? Oh, yeah. Because you're feeding the kid, too. Feeding the kid. I think that's one of the fun parts of being pregnant, right? Absolutely. But this movie, I watched it on my TV. I plugged my computer into the TV, old school.

Now I have Apple TV, though. You can just do it for the button. But nonetheless, I watched it, which is good, right? That you watched it? Yeah yeah i'm so relieved it did cross my mind coming over here how difficult it would be to talk about it well it's difficult to talk about anyway but but don't you do people do that though because there's times where i've had people in that have done a lot of things like i can't say i've watched all your movies but as i'll reveal i'm i'm a pretty big fan so to to the point where it got a little awkward, but you don't even know about it. Okay.

But this movie is one of those movies, it reminded me a little of like when I saw Unbreakable, where there's something more to what you're seeing. And I couldn't really put it together until after. And I think it runs deeper than you're going to get just from watching it passively. I would agree with that. And you can watch it passively. Of course. I did.

And then there was that sort of thing where it's like, well, that's pretty good. That's a nice twist. That's worth waiting for. The big twist at the end. How is that going to resolve itself? Oh, holy shit. She went there to do that. So see how I did that?

Didn't give away anything. I'm breathing a lot easier now thank you um but then like in thinking about it and then talking to people about it because it is a peculiar device i mean like this the narrative device is like where the fuck did that come from yeah now when you read that what were the discussions you had with the director and writer? It was just a love fest. I know I should have had a more rigorous process for a vetting process or something, but I was just so in. What was it about it? Just what you said, like the where the fuck did that come from quality to it. I felt so refreshed by the end of it.

Yeah. And this one is something that it just, I felt it really represented my personal sensibilities, the movies that I like. I don't need movies to make sense for them to be enjoyable to me. And the fact that this one did make sense, that there was a thread that went through it, and it was so creatively ambitious. And yeah, I just, everything about it, I loved.

I loved her. Yeah. It must have been mind-blowing to read that thing. With that moment where you're like, what? Wait, what? I'm in the playground and what's happening? That aspect of it was so much fun to, that was one of the things that drew me in because, you know, when you're a kid and you don't know that you want to be an actor, like as a thought, you're not thinking, what is my career path? but you are on the playground and you do see cities around you and you do see imaginary villains and they do have capes and and you do have to figure out how to get that stack of boulders to fall on them and you see

all of it yeah and i i it was so making this was so much fun because i got to go to a playground and do that again but what it implies about the the strange sort of anonymous, bordering on cowardice of having personalities online, out in the world, doing destructive things, that the metaphor, it didn't resonate till afterwards. And I think it's in there. Do you? Yeah. You do? For sure. Did you have those kind of conversations with the filmmaker? About what it implied? Yeah. You do? For sure. Did you have those kind of conversations with the filmmaker?

About what it implied? Yeah. Yeah. Not just what it implied, what each of our experiences had been at the hands of the internet. Oh, really? So that was a real active conversation. Yeah. He wrote it because he'd experienced some internet hate over something he'd either said or declared.

What's his name? Nacho. Nacho. Nacho Vigalando. It doesn't sound like I either said or declared. What's his name? Nacho. Nacho. Nacho Vigalando. It doesn't sound like I just made that up. What are his other movies? Time Crimes. Okay.

He made a film called Extraterrestrial. And on iTunes, I believe you can buy a bundle of his short films called Confetti of the Mind. Okay. And those were what convinced me. Because I read the script and I loved it. And I thought, wow, this is, you know, like I said, so ambitious. But can he pull it off? Because that's a really important thing and some of his short films look like it was just

him a buddy an iPhone and an afternoon and they're great right and they're clever and they're entertaining and they're screamingly funny yeah so he had you had a conversation about internet cowardice and hate well yeah I more. I say cowardice because usually it's anonymous. You know, I don't remember which one, but one of the guys who, one of the creators of the internet said, if we had had any idea where this was going to go, we never would have made it anonymous. And I think seeing it, I can see why. Seeing all this happened. And, you know, I have my own experience with it.

And I can't help but think that we're all growing up together in this moment. And we've never quite had anything like this, the responsibility, the access, the protection, the anonymity, that ability to let our id run as unchecked as we want it to go. We've never had that before. And we're actually having a real conversation about it. People's reactions are genuine. People that are into it, people who get high off of hurting other people. It was the feeling that I had about it culturally

going into my conversation with the director, which we had. Right. It's weird because what happens, the reason why people a lot of times get attacked, and I was thinking about this today, that, who was I talking to? I just did RuPaul's podcast.

I went over there just earlier today, and he says hi. Oh, my God. Okay. I'm just dying. Oh, my God. And he said, ask her about the Liza, Judy thing that I heard that might happen, because she's so like them. Aw. And what about those? Well, first of all, that's very, very elevated company, and that might happen because she's so like them. And what about those?

Well, first of all, that's very, very elevated company. And it might happen. Really? It might happen. What's the angle? There's a script underway. I can't tell you. It's too good.

It's too good. Who are you going to play? Judy. Really? Judy. And you love her? Oh, my God. Yes.

Oh, my gosh. Yes. she was one of i think she's so brave i think she was a woman who if i think judy garland lived today we would have seen a very different version of her um none none no less of the talent no less of the feeling but i think i think that both uh judy garland and marilyn mon Monroe and a few other women from that period, I thought they were emotional geniuses totally ahead of their time. When you look at their level of inclusivity, they didn't see, they didn't particularly care about gender. They didn't care about sexuality. They just loved everybody. They just wanted to be loved.

And so they loved everybody. So that was the thing that did it. It's a vulnerability almost. Certainly. I mean, Judy Garland was so achingly vulnerable and also so powerful and so raw. I don't know if you've seen A Star Is Born lately. I haven't seen it lately. There's this scene in it where it's one take and she's like a three or four minute monologue.

And she's talking about her husband in the, in the film. Who's, who's an alcoholic. And you have to remember like, this is before there were rehabs. This is before the term addict, I think even existed. I mean,

you know, people were just poking around in the dark, trying to make sense of these things. She likes to have a good time. That's what they call that. It's so dark. It's being in the dark. And she has this monologue.

And I saw behind the scenes of the making of thing. And George Cukor, I think, was the director. And he went up to her. And it's a monologue about addiction, but without being called about addiction. And he said, you know what this is about. Oh, really? And she said, yeah, I do. And he goes, okay, rolling.

And she just gives my favorite performance that anyone's ever. All due respect to Meryl Streep, who gives like all my other favorite performances. It's the best acting I think anyone has ever done in that scene where she goes with it. And then they're like, we're ready for you on set. And she like leaves the shot and goes out into the background of another shot and just starts singing and dancing. It's crazy. Show business. Oh my God. And that level of strength and the stories about her. of another shot and just start singing and dancing. It's crazy. Show business. Oh, my God.

And that level of strength and the stories about her. This one won't be in the movie, but she was in so much pain and she needed help so badly. And there are people around her who just didn't have it within themselves to give her that space. And I don't know if it was greed or fear or both or what. Denial. Maybe. Yeah, that's a really strong one, too. A very big possibility.

But she tried to commit suicide. They pull her out of the hospital because she had a show. She's saying, she's begging them not to take her with her. She's saying, I need a rest. I need a break. Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this.

And they're saying, Judy, you're going on. Her mother was in the car with her. And then finally, she asks for a mirror. And now I must say, this is secondhand. I read this in a book. So apologies to her children if it's not true. But they give her the mirror. Yeah.

And so she can do her makeup. And she takes the mirror and she smashes it and grabs a shard of glass and starts cutting her face. Oh, my God. Because she didn't want to go on. And they got a doctor to the theater who stitched her up and they covered it with her hair. And she went out and she did a show. How long was that before she died? 20 years.

It's, God, to live in that. Yeah. And so one of the things I want to do, by the way, I feel like I have to say this because I've just told a few tragic stories. I'm falling into the habit that people have with her, which is to focus on the aspects of her life that were tragic. One of the things that I want to do with the story and the way I want to tell the story is I want to show that she was an artist.

She was a great mom. And because that aspect of her always, you always say that after you talk about all the heightened levels of tragedy that affected her in her life. She was this sublime artist. She had such greatness inside of her. And her talent saw her through so much. And I don't know. And she was a great wit.

People don't know that about her. She was funny as anything. Yeah. Oh, man. So, yeah, I'm really excited for that project. It's been a long time coming. When did that start to resonate with you? Because you started acting pretty young.

And I mean, that was really, I think, when everybody saw her was, what, Wizard of Oz or the Mickey Rooney movies? I mean, she must have been very young and she was playing young. She did a lot of Andy Hardy movies. Yeah. And then she got cast in The Wizard of Oz. And then she was sort of, I mean, it was such an awkward time because she wasn't quite grown up yet, but she wasn't quite the little girl that people wanted her to be. And so she lived in this uncomfortable place for, I mean, for much of her career, honestly. And when did she start to resonate with you?

Well, I auditioned for, there's this made-for-television movie starring Judy Davis, and she's just incredible in it. Judy Davis is great. She's amazing and the girl that they honestly they want so i should get to the point of the story first i auditioned to play young judy garland in that and they cast when was this i think i was like 15 maybe um 15 16 and they cast a young actress named tammy blanchard who just i mean they're they're twins she did such a good job and um and that was kind of when i started to really get into the story because there was a lot of backstory stuff that I didn't know. But you seem to, on some level, avoided a crash and burn mode as far as I can tell.

Publicly. Yeah? Publicly, yeah. But no, no, no. I crashed and burned like all of them. Oh, yeah. Behind closed doors. Yeah, I think I was just, I'm just really lucky.

I went to Vassar for a few years. And so I think a lot of that stuff was just chalked up to like college age. Oh, you didn't lose control necessarily. Behavior. No, no, no, I did. Oh, yeah? Like what? What was your thing?

I mean, when did it start? High school? No, no, no. I was a teetotaler in high school. I was pretty righteous about it, too. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. You drunk girls are bad news.

No, no, no. Not even that. I just, it wasn't about judgment of other people. It was a way of creating some kind of control in my own world. Sure, yeah. So I didn't smoke anything or drink anything until I was 18. And then, you know how it is when you don't do it for a long time. Oh, yeah.

You kind of go a little harder than you should. Yeah. But it took, I mean, I remember, I just dropped the thing that I was hoping to calm me down. Excuse me. I can't even say that it's a thing that I've totally resolved. I think, you know, the- What? Drinking.

Yeah. The break that I got to take when I was trying to get pregnant and then pregnant and then, you know, breastfeeding. Yeah. It was a real gift. It was a real gift to just kind of learn how to bring it all down and be present. And and honestly, like my I was talking to someone today and about motherhood and they were just saying, you know, you seem to really be calm about it. And I said, the fear, the anxiety was that I wasn't going to get pregnant. And now that I have, I just feel like I just get to enjoy the rest of my life. So I feel like because some of that anxiety is tamped down and because I don't want my son to have an impaired mom. Right. I think that that's, I hope that's quieted down. But, I mean, if you talk to anybody who really knew me in my 20s, they would tell you I was a wild girl.

Really? Yeah. I just didn't. I think it was so incongruous to people's idea of me that it never really got picked up. And it was never that dramatic. I think it was like a lot of people where I could drink a bottle of wine by myself every night.

Sure. By yourself, though? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I could. Yeah. Usually I'd rope someone else to help me, but I drank most of it. Sure. By yourself though? Yeah. Oh yeah. I could. Yeah. Usually I'd rope someone else to help me

but I drank most of it. Right. But like it seems like you're able to manage your life at least professionally. I mean

I'm still going. Yeah. And it's going well so that's good. Well when did you start when did the acting start? Let's go back and then move through it

and I want to talk about that vulnerability the Marilyn, Judy Garland thing. Because I said something to RuPaul walking out about, I know there's been a lot of attention paid to people who have strong opinions about you one way or the other. And I said to him, well, I love her because, you know, when you can't help but be vulnerable in all your performances, when you can see that, which you do, which is a consistent thing with you. And it's an amazing thing. Thank you.

That, you know, it doesn't matter what the character is. It's not that you're necessarily coming through because you're an actress, but that thing, that vulnerability, that humanity always comes through. And I say, well, that there's a person that's going to be moved always by that and compelled by it, but it's also bully bait. You know what I mean? It's just totally, totally.

That vulnerability is like chum in the water to assholes. Oh, that is a great line. Oh, man. Good. I'm lifting that and saying it in a movie. Yeah, do it. I don't even need credit.

I'm glad to help out. You'll get in the special. Thanks. Is it hot in here? Or is it just us? I'm okay. Honestly, I don't know what's wrong with me.

I like this type of thing. I don't mind it. I didn't know if it was the tea or it was happening to you. Am I turning red? I turn red a lot. There's nothing I can do. I can't turn the air was the tea or it was happening to you. Am I turning red? I turn red a lot. There's nothing I can do. I can't turn the air on.

There's no reason for me to ask that. I like a hot, stuffy room. Yeah? I don't know what's wrong with me. I like it. Sometimes it's relaxing. I agree. It's like the humidity.

Because I don't do any drugs or drink anymore. But in the humidity, like when I lived in New York, it's horrible, but you're so dead. Yeah. It's almost a replacement for doing drugs. You're just too exhausted. Yeah, I think that's why I like the ocean. Yeah. Because by the end of the day, you're spent.

Yeah, without doing anything. Yeah, just sitting right there. So, okay, well, let me tell you the back story that I have with you because it's sort of, I don't even know if it's a great story to tell you. But after I saw the, Rachel's Getting Married, is that what it's called? Yeah. When did that come out? Like 2007, something like that? 2008, yeah. Right. So I was doing a show in New York, a streaming video show at Air America. I was in

the middle of a bad divorce. I was shattered and doing this daily video show, a political show mostly, but also whatever. It was just a show that nobody watched on the computer. And I went and saw that movie and I was like so amazed by you and by the movie. I thought it was a great performance. But then I sort of like, I started being like, do you think Anne Hathaway knows about this show? And I was doing it on the show.

And like 2000 people watch this at most on any given day. But it became this recurring theme. I wonder if I could get her to talk to me if she would come up. That's funny. But it went on for months. And of course, no, you didn't know anything about that. But it was this recurring theme with me that like someday I'm going to talk to Anne Hathaway. I'm going to high five across the table.

Yeah, it's a big day. But what happened was, with all that kind of like going on every day, which wasn't all that, but it was on my mind. But it's a real, you were going through some real stuff. Sure.

But like you weren't going to solve it. Certainly not. But I think that my intuition that maybe you might doesn't seem to be that off, characterologically. Wow. Yeah.

So anyway. I'm so – What? I'm just amazed and flattered by everything you're saying, and I'm fighting really hard not to leave my body right now. I'm fighting really hard to take all this in. So what happens, I'm in New York, right? And one time I'm just walking.

It was probably down Third Avenue. It was downtown because I never went anywhere but downtown. downtown and you were just walking you were just walking by yourself and i know from you know being a you know mid-level celebrity myself that there's nothing i could have like if i if i i did have eye contact with you but there was no way it was going to register as anything to you other than like, uh-oh. Because even when people are trying to act cool, and you know this, their eyes widen just a little. Even when they're trying to keep it together,

there's that half a centimeter of like, oh, shit. It's involuntary. So I imagine that happened, but I saw you, and after all this talking to you, there was nothing I could do that wouldn't seem like fucking creepy. You could have said, Jersey girl. Yeah, I wouldn't have thought that. But I would have turned. Oh, I probably would have been more like, help.

Ann, you don't understand. You're the only one that can help me. For the record, I would have hugged you. Oh, really? I would have hugged you. No one would have the record, I would have hugged you. Really? I would have hugged you. No one would have believed it. I would have hugged you. I feel so much more comfortable giving people hugs than I do taking selfies.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. I'll go either way. If the selfie, like, it's quicker than, like, what really becomes a chore, because you seem like a good person in terms of people that love you or your fans, is that it's like you want to, they know you in a certain way whatever information's out there there's a lot of information about me because i never shut up and i talk but um but they they have this relationship with you that they're walking into and you're you don't know you don't know them

and they could go either way and but sometimes they're sort of like, well, let's catch up. Well, can I tell you where I hold it? Yeah. And I didn't always. And I've got to say, I hope I wasn't a jerk to anybody. But in my head, I was a jerk to people a lot for a period of time. And I just woke up one day and I just became so deeply flattered by it. And I just saw it for what it is, which is just it's just somebody giving you some of their energy in a nice way. Right.

And it's really not that hard to stand there and just. Be gracious. Thank you so much. Right. I mean, I don't know if it's motherhood or just growing up a little bit, but people's time matters. Yeah. You can do whatever you want with it and you choose to give it to me? Yeah.

Either like by watching my movies or in this moment by telling me that I make you feel good? Yeah. Holy shit, that's amazing. Right. No, that's great. But then comes the point where it's like, I'm not done yet. But yeah, exactly. Well, you seem to be doing really well now.

I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. The time, did it turn into grist for the mill? Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, you seem to be doing really well now. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. The time, did it turn into grist for the mill? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I got through all that. Yeah, I mean, it was, you know. You didn't need me.

No, I did. But no, you know, things work out. You had your problems. Yes. Again and again and again and again. And still will, still looking forward to them finding me again but you got a good one now what's my problem now no you got a good relationship now oh i got a good relationship now so like okay well this is something you talk about maybe

um what what what did you have to do to you know sort of recover from some of the bad ones like what did you like how did you reconcile that with yourself how did you have to do to sort of recover from some of the bad ones? Like, how did you reconcile that with yourself? How did you figure out who you were in that? You know, I'll tell you the moment. I've been dating my husband for about a year. Yeah. And I knew he was a good guy. And I intuited, but I hadn't absorbed and owned yet that,

uh, that I should be grateful to all the bad relationships because without them, I don't know that I would have known how to appreciate my husband. I think I might've said, oh, he's a nice guy. I'm sure there's lots of nice guys out there. Right. Because I knew for a fact that there are actually way more not nice guys out there from my own experience that this guy was rare and I should be good to him. And about a year into our relationship as, as, as, you know, I think probably happens

to most people, I started to be my real self and the same stuff that had happened with the bad guys showed up. Right. So I'm like, all right, it wasn't all them. It was, it was a little bit me. And I remember this one moment i was i was you know uh thinking about my husband talking to him and honestly if i'm being 100 honest and he knows this i was disparaging him in my mind and um and not being kind yeah and who i am now

knowing that he is my husband and the father of my child and the king of my life. Yeah. Reached back in time and slapped me myself upside the head. Yeah. And said, hey, honey, this is not the one that you do that with. All right. You have a choice. You either never have a guy this good again or you grow up a little bit. Right.

And I just went, oh, all my old BS is not going to serve this. I have to figure out a way to be better. And I was really upfront with him about it. And I've always been upfront with him that I don't really deserve someone this great. But if you're willing to hang with me, I'll be my best self with you always. I just that best self might not be good enough for what you could actually should actually have. I like that even in the self-realization moment, you're undermining yourself. Can't help it. Look, I just want to be honest. I'm kind of shitty.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of shitty. I hope I'm not always shitty, but there's a chance I might be. Could get pretty shitty. There's some shittiness in here. Right. Yeah.

But I'm aware of the shitty. I'm aware. This is a really important first step. I'm not one of those people that doesn't Could get pretty shitty. There's some shittiness in here. Right. Yeah. But I'm aware of the shitty. I'm aware. This is a really important first step. I'm not one of those people that doesn't think they're shitty. No, right. And that's it is an important first step because, you know, that self-awareness. And the weird thing is, is that what you realize at that moment is that, like, you know, I somehow am part of the sabotage. Yeah, absolutely.

And like I've been saying on stage lately that, you know, if you're emotionally fucked up, it's not going to get fixed. Like all you can do is learn how to shut the fuck up. Say more about that. Well, I mean that like for me, I don't know what your trip is, but like I'll say things that are hurtful. Sometimes I'll get mad. I'll rage out. Like when I feel hurt or manipulated or defensive, you know, even if I'm making it up, like the woman I'm with now said recently when I was, you know, she did something that, you know,

I registered differently and there was nothing said, but like, you know, a few minutes go by and I'm like, I know what you're doing. And I feel, you know, like I started having this conversation. She's like, you're whatever conversation you're having, you're having it with yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And that was sort of enlightening. But more about it is just that I would lash out prematurely.

And it was really about a fear of being intimate, of trusting someone else. So I would preempt that by being a dick. Sounds familiar. Right. What I, so that's what I mean by shutting up. It's like, don't say the thing that's, you know what's going to happen. Yeah. You know, take a walk, suck it up, you know, try not to stew, and eat something.

Eat something. Start there. Start there. There's a couple things that you should try first. What do you got well one one of them i mean the one that i want to say is is inappropriate to say we just met but if the microphones weren't here i'd tell you what it is oh really oh yeah of course well yeah well that's right when things are about to get shitty it's that's the time that's foreplay try it hey

we're fighting or well that's, that's gotten pretty weird too. Like with me, because like a lot of times when you're, I'm at the most intimate place there and I start going, I start picking, you know, like, what happened this morning? You know, like you're in bed and you should be like, and it feels intimate. So then I start like, and I start picking a fight. And she said to me, she said, I get it. This is your foreplay. And I'm like, I wish it was healthier. I know. to me, she said, I get it. This is your foreplay. And I'm like, I wish it was healthier. She sounds great.

I know, but I wish I was more healthy. She sounds really awesome. Why can't we have regular foreplay? Why does foreplay have to involve me almost making you cry? Trust deeper. You're going to get there. But the other thing I was going to say, it was great advice that I got,

which was you set your timer, 12 minutes, and you write everything that's on your mind, just everything. You just get it out. Oh, my God. And at the end of 12 minutes, you burn it. Oh, really? Yeah. That's almost like a magical ritual.

Yeah, it is, actually. And there's something so wonderful about all this stuff that was literally weighing you down, keeping you. You couldn't see straight. You're ready to be mean to the people you love. You're ready to forget who you are. You're really like on the edge. And all of a sudden, it's smoke and ash in a moment.

And that works. It works for me great. Really? Yeah. So I have to say, though, sometimes I'll be on set and I feel myself working up and I have to go outside and the paparazzi's there. I have to find a way to burn paper without getting photographed and having people make up weird stories.

Yeah. The tabloids are like, what is she up to? What is that witch up to? What is she burning? My feelings. Okay. I can't eat them. I'm on set.

That's it's hard not to eat on set. Holy shit. That was one of the things I loved about this movie because I was pregnant. I was like, it all works. Yeah. Where's craft services? Oh, man. i ate more than the boys on this one that's more than the gaffers and the camera guys oh all of them wow great the last time i had this much fun on a set eating was rachel getting married because my character i decided only ate white things

oh yeah i just ate carbs and carbs and carbs and carbs. It was so much fun. Well, where did that come from? Let's talk about that because you're an actress and you're a great one. When did you start doing that? Acting. Well, I mean, my mom is an actress. She's a wonderful actress and an extraordinarily lovable one. And so I grew up watching her do it. On stage.

Yeah. So I knew that it was something that you, you know, could do. And I knew that occasionally there would be kids in her show, shows. And so I would, I would ask my parents, can I, can I do that? Yeah. So they like signed me up for lessons. And I, uh, in New Jersey, there's this theater, maybe you actually even know it. I don't know. The Paper Mill Playhouse. I don't, I don't think so. I think I was out before. And there was a wonderful woman there who's since passed but just changed my life. And her name was Mickey McNanny.

Yeah. And she was just exactly the teacher that you want to have when you're like a slightly too loud, slightly too energetic kid. Yeah. And, you know, I was in her class for a long time. I did the theater camp that she had during the summer. And then the Paper Mill Playhouse. How old were you? At that point,

that was probably from like nine until about 12. Yeah. And then, and I'd taken dancing lessons since I was little.

And then I got asked to be an extra in a production of Gigi with Gavin McLeod from The Love Boat. Gavin McLeod, sure. And Lillian Montavecchi.

From Mary Tyler Moore's show. Yeah, yeah. And that was fun. And then I got to audition for another show they were doing and I got like the tiniest part you could have in it. Yeah. And one night I got to go on in one of the roles I understudied and that was pretty cool.

And there were a lot of other kids in the show and some of them had agents. Yeah. And so I reached out to those agents when I was about 13. On your own? Yeah, about 13, 14. Yeah, actually. who's representing you it's a real conversation theater kids have and so um and i reached out and a couple of them called me and i went and i met with them and one of them uh said let's do a

trial period and i booked my fourth audition and then didn't book like the next 150 but i had booked one so they kept me on. So you got hip to the rejection process. Oh, really early, yeah. And it didn't crush you all the time. You knew it was part of it. Here's the thing. It's not about whether or not you get crushed.

It's about whether or not you stand up again. So I got crushed a lot. And sometimes, I mean, my mom, I think, told People Magazine or something, a story about me sobbing on the floor when I was 15 years old because I'd gotten like my 90th rejection in a row. And Tara Lipinski had just won gold and we were the same age.

And I was just like, see, other people are accomplishing things at a high level. So you're a perfectionist. I used to be. Not anymore. All right. So let's go back to where you get cast in the Princess Diaries if we can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're a kid, 90 rejections, things aren't going well.

More than 90, that was a streak. And then, yeah, and then I took an acting class at the Bauer Group. What is that? The Bauer Group is a wonderful off-off-Broadway theater company in New York that my mom had taken a class at. off-off-Broadway theater company in New York that my mom had taken a class at. She, when I was about three, had done a production at Summerstock of Evita. She was the matinee Ava, which was fantastic.

I still have a VHS of it. I just don't have a player. And both your folks are still with us? They are, yeah. They are. They're still with us. They're still married. Wow.

They're still really fun. That's great. And so one of the dancers in the show, an amazing actress by the name of Lee Brock, she and my mom had recently reconnected and said, you know, my husband and I have started this acting school. And my mom said, well, I want to take a class. And so she went to the class and just raved about it. Yeah.

And I had been trying to find an acting, an acting class and I, I wasn't having much luck. And my mom mentioned it to, to Lee and said, Annie really likes the sound of your class. Can she come? And Lee was like, oh, we don't really accept teenagers. How old were you? At the time I was 15. Okay. And she said, we really don't take teenagers.

Um, and my mom, you know, was so great. She's like, oh, she's really mature. You won't even notice her age. And they, And I think as a courtesy, they let me audition. And I worked really hard. And I think they saw something in the raw material. And I got to join an adult acting class. And it was not for like adult actors, the porn way. But just anyway, that sounded weird. So, but with real adult acting people, professionals in New York. I don't think anyone would have thought that. My brain goes there.

I didn't even think about that. Permanently 13 and male. So I was in this class with these unbelievable actors. And after I did that, I felt like I had taken kind of a leap forward. And I went to my agent, who I'd been with at this point for a few years. And I said, I think I'd like to do movies. Like, I think I'd like to start auditioning for movies. I see other girls my age in them.

Did you learn anything in that acting class that you still use? Oh, my God. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. One of the ones is if you have something where it's a bunch of like adjectives or I'm just describing objects in a room. Yeah. Imagine them like a grocery list. So people try to imbue each one with feeling,

but they're just objects. You're doing it most of the time. You're thinking of something else. The other one, which is so helpful, is when you find yourself acting, like you find yourself aware that you're performing, just stop, have a conversation. And when you feel like you're actually talking to somebody,

say your line. When you feel yourself actually relaxed enough, then you just slip into it and you bring the whole thing down to the level of reality. So this is when you're working on it, not in the middle of a play. No, you can't really do it in the middle of a play. Or the middle of a movie scene. We could do another take. But one of the things that our teacher, Seth Barish, who's Lee's husband. Why do I know that name? Is that a name?

He's an actor. He's an actor in New York. If you showed your face, you'd be like, that guy. He, God, and he's such a good director, too. And I remember him telling us the most exciting thing that happens on stage is usually when an actor forgets a line. Yeah. Because suddenly everyone's right back in the moment,

and nobody knows what's about to happen yeah including the actors themselves and that's the moment when great stuff happens right so i'm gonna sidetrack for a second my mom was in a production at the bauer group yeah um uh called sonnets for an old century yeah and there was this she had a monologue in it and she was there and one night she went up on her lines and she couldn't remember what the next line was. And she just remembered that thing about don't panic. Everyone's going to switch on. Everything's going to be fine.

And so she just held it and looked around the room, looked around the room. She said, it's going to come. I know it's going to come. And she said, and I'm not going to do anything until it does. And just stood there. And right when the audience started to be like, what is going on? She remembered the line, which was, I like to take my time. And she used it.

And she used it in the performance from that point on. So those two things. So I said, I'd like to do movies. My agent said, I don't think you're ready for that. But maybe you should go to L.A. for pilot season. And I said, what's that? And she said, OK, maybe don't go to L.A. You're a little green.

But anything that comes through New York, we're going to have you audition for. And one of the things I auditioned for was a show called Get Real. And I got it and I got on, they asked me to come out to Los Angeles. It was the second time in my life I was on an airplane. The first time had been when I went to Disney World when I was nine. And I got the part and I lived in LA for a year and then went home. Did your mom come out with you? No. My older brother came out with me for the first few months. And then my mom, my dad, and my aunt took turns.

And one would come out for two weeks. But in hindsight, we all think that's insane. Someone should have been here? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we were out of respect for my younger brother who was quite young at the time. I think he was like 11, 12. It would have been really disruptive to have moved the entire family out here from my dream. We also, we got picked up for 13 episodes initially and we never had good ratings, so we never knew how comfortable we could get. Right. So given the givens, I know why we made the choice, but just in hindsight, knowing what we know now, knowing how tough that time was, I don't think we would make that decision again.

Well, what happened for you out here in LA in terms of, it's weird to me that already at that point, I mean, you're younger than me, but already an acting coach could tell you you're too green to go out for pilot season if you don't know what it is and you, that like you should be jaded and you should know about this. And but when you came out here, what was your experience in Hollywood? I mean, well, I was a senior in high school when the show got picked up. So I came out here, I guess it was like spring break of my junior year. And then I got picked up and I came out here senior year and I had a private tutor.

Sure. And I'd been, you know, an OK student okay student, like pretty average up to that point. And something about this teacher, whose name was Buzzy Gonyi, just opened, just unlocked something. Suddenly I could do things that I just wasn't able to do back home. I could speak other languages. I could, you know, remember details about art. I just, she, the way she taught me revealed to me that I actually had a good brain before that I didn't really think.

Was it a confidence thing, a fear thing or what? I just think it, I don't. Natural evolution. I think all of the above. And I think just having someone, I just think it was a great, it was a great privileged gift to be able to learn at the pace that I wanted to learn at, which was to say uneven. Some things I got right away. Other things I got way slower than everybody else.

And to have somebody who got to know me and got to work with me on that. And she just, I mean, she was so cool. Like, you know, sometimes like if I had a day off from shooting, because what I did most of the time was work. But if I had a day off from shooting, we would go to a museum and we would just exhaust the museum and then we would read all about museum and we would just exhaust the museum. And then we would read all about the artists in that period. And it was so cool.

Anyway, the show ended. I went home for the last like six weeks of my senior year. I went on a couple auditions. One of them was for a film called The Other Side of Heaven, which saw it in New Zealand. I had a 24-hour stopover in Los Angeles, and I auditioned for The Princess Diaries. So you got cast in that New Zealand movie, and you auditioned for The Princess Diaries. Yeah. And you got it.

And I got it. And that was a big deal. It was a big effing deal, man. That was a really big deal. That was a big break. Yeah, it was. That was really, really, it was unusual. If nothing else had happened to me, I would have had a great career.

Because that was one of those huge Harry Potter-level things, wasn't it? I. If nothing else had happened to me, I would have had a great career. Because that was like one of those huge, like Harry Potter level things, wasn't it? Probably not quite Harry Potter. No, but I mean, at that time, it had a big impact on- It was a sleeper. Yeah. It was a sleeper and people were shocked at how well it did. And from my experience, it endures. I mean, there's a lot, for me, I work with someone, they have kids, and all of a sudden

they have a daughter who turns seven and it's a whole new thing yeah and suddenly like i come into focus and i was just like another adult to their kid and all of a sudden i'm something else yeah and i like that like the princess diaries is sort of like you know it's in the movie for sleepovers right it's in the canon yes in the little girl canon it's so in the little girl canon so that starts it and i got obviously we can't go movie to movie okay i got a question okay i just saw this on the way over from wherever i was from rupaul's place from that where he does his uh i'm so jealous you were with rupaul you can go do it i'm gonna go i'm gonna go right from here i love him he would be thrilled to have you on his

podcast are you kidding most Most fabulous. Yeah. Well, yeah, I think he is in the dictionary under the most fabulous. I think so. But, okay, this is just a weird question because I don't know. Sometimes I miss things in movies. In Brokeback Mountain, did you have him killed? Oh, you've asked the question I swore I would never answer. Can I tell you a story?

Someone else has asked it, though, damn it. Oprah. Oh, interesting. Oh, that's good company. That's good company. Here's what happened. So Oprah, so Brokeback Mountain comes out, and, you know, it's this little mini phenomenon. Yeah.

And Heath, God rest his soul, and Michelle and Jake, they're just getting all the attention they deserve. And I'm there, too. And somehow I'm just sort of being brought to every press thing. I think they're hoping, I don't know, that little girl's coming to see it. I love your character. I grew up in New Mexico. Thank you very much. It was very familiar to me somehow. It just became very clear that, like, they were the top tier.

And I was sort of, like, not quite there. But I still was going around doing all this press. But there wasn't much to talk to me about yeah um so anyways so we all go on oprah which is like just a thrill as i'm sure you can imagine and um we go on the show and oprah asks me a question and i'm like oh okay i guess that's my turn to talk but i didn't understand the question and then it turned out it was meant for michelle and so it's just like i'm'm just sitting there. I'm like, I have nothing to do. I'm just occupying space. So then Oprah turns and she says to me, you know, so did Lorene know? Did she know that Jack was gay?

And it's Oprah. And I've sworn to myself, this is why you can never be too rigid about anything. I'm not going to answer this question. But it's Oprah. So I want to answer the question. But and Ang Lee, we just done a Q&A and someone had asked him that. that I'm not going to answer this question, but it's Oprah, so I want to answer the question. And Ang Lee, we had just done a Q&A, and someone had asked him that,

and he said, well, you know, I think it's obvious, but I don't think it has to be stated. And I was like, I'm just going to borrow Ang Lee's answer. The thing is, though, when Ang Lee says it, it's different than when 21-year-old Anne Hathaway says it. So I say it, and I offend Oprah. I offend her. She goes, oh goes oh oh is it obvious oh and it's obvious so i'm just not getting it like it's obvious to everyone here she turns to the audience

and she's like so everyone else gets and i'm like oh no no i literally had one thing to do here and i did up you offended oprah and and so I just like kind of was like I can't believe it and I just said I'm so sorry my mother wants to kill me right now that I was disrespectful to you right and I later found out that um a director that I was dying to work with uh decided he didn't like me because of that interview you were just trying to to be I was just trying to like do the right thing for the movie and for my character and I was just trying yeah I was just trying to be... I was just trying to like... Do the right thing for the movie. And for my character. And I was just trying... Yeah, I was just trying to be cool.

So she knew. I should never do it. She knew. I can't answer that. I didn't tell Oprah. No offense, Mark. No, it's time has come. Time has come.

And it's time to let this thing go. And to correct your... You know, it's an opportunity for you to grow as a person. Is it? Is this an opportunity? Yeah, because you lied to Oprah. You condescended Oprah. I did condescend to Oprah. My God.

My God. What is wrong with my inner compass? And let me tell you something. If this is the biggest thing that we're going to break on this show, it's not like people are like, oh my God, run to the presses. The discussion was had though.

You knew as a character. Aang said to you, look. What Aang said to me was, she's a predator. That's it? That was one of the biggest character notes he gave me and I just sort of ran with that. Aang and I never had an overt discussion about what it was.

And so what I did was I did some takes where I knew and I did some takes that I didn't know. And I saw both of those in the movie. Okay. So that's. Is that an acceptable answer? It seems honest.

You know, like I also am seeing the way you're, I think that you probably had the same tone when you answered Oprah. Oh no, I think that you probably had the same tone when you answered Oprah. Oh no, I've learned nothing. Like I'm slightly better than you because you want to know and you won't just let it be. Oh, sorry.

That's awful. No, it's not. It's not that. Look, it was a question I thought driving over here. I didn't lose sleep for two weeks. I'm going to get this out of her. This is the big, this is the whole podcast. This is the juicy drop, man.

This is it. Okay, well, I can live with that. Thank you. I can't. You can't? I can't. It's history repeating itself. I condescended to Oprah.

I condescended to Marc Maron. No, I don't think you condescended me. I'm a thorn in the sun. I think I believe what you're saying. Thank you. Good. So it still leaves it unanswered, but it's just more of a puzzle. Like if anybody really wants to, they're like, I'm going to go back and watch that movie

and figure out which takes she knew and which takes she didn't. And also the point is that neither of them got to live a life that made them happy. No, I get the point of the movie, but your character. That's not what we're talking about you can't there's no bad there's no way to brush it under the yeah you're right but uh i'll take it so here's a i'll do i'll admit some more things to you um i've probably seen devil wears product like seven times for some reason i love the movie and i love your dynamic with her and like it's a it's a guilty pleasure i don't seek it out i don't have a copy that i'm like it's that night you know bad day at work let's pop it in well no you said you have

apple tv so click the button exactly but i'll watch it whenever it's on. Thank you. Now, when you knew you were going to work with Meryl Streep, what was the first, the day you heard you were going to do it, what was your first feeling? I just, I remember, I mean, I knew, so I had been the studio's choice before Meryl was on board. And this is some real stuff. This is a real dirt? This is. And this is some real stuff. This is the real dirt? This is the real dirt.

Yeah. When they got Meryl, they thought they could do better than me. Oh, really? So I fell down on the list. And they went to a lot of girls before me. And for some reason- Did you know the girls they went to? Personally or their names?

Their names. I knew their names. How do you get that information in that situation? Well, sometimes I ask. Sometimes I've learned I actually don't want to know anymore. Yeah. But in that case, I was just like, well, who are they going to now? Yeah.

Oh, God, she's great. And for some reason, and I think, and this is one of the things- Definitely not a predator in real life. Oh, that makes sense. I'm not good enough. She would be good. Yeah. oh that's that makes sense i'm not good she would be good um yeah and for whatever reason and i and i don't want to use words like fate yeah they all said no to this fantastic part they just and the opportunity to work with merrill streep and there's no i mean it doesn't make any sense

and i was like number seven or eight on the list like it got turned down by a lot of people and i was there waiting you, just with my hand up. And so when I found out that it was actually going to happen, I mean, I was beside myself. I remember I was getting dressed and I wasn't wearing pants. Ready to go. And I was ready to go out with my friends and I just ran out like my shirt half off,

not wearing pants to my, and I screamed. I'm like, I got it. I'm going to be in the Deborah's Prada. Where was paparazzi that day? They didn't care about me at that point. And so it was just, it was just so, it was just so happy. And then a couple of weeks later, I met Emily and I just, you know, when you just meet someone and you're like, well, you're going to be really important to my life. I don't know how. And I met my husband through her like many, many years later. Through Emily? Yeah. And then I met Meryl

and she was just so, I mean, for lack of a more interesting word, she's just a real living, breathing human. She's so alive and switched on. And I know Mike Nichols once described her as like an irrepressible spring. And she's just, I mean, she's all of those things. And she's so smart.

And she just lives her life so in the moment. She's so playful. But how did you feel as an actress? I mean, I don't know. You didn't think about it? How do you feel in that moment? What don't you feel in that moment? Well, what were you looking forward to?

Just seeing. Being around her. I was really looking forward to seeing the the cogs if there were anything that's what i'm wondering yeah and um and i remember doing the read-through and and at that so we talked about my acting class and the first thing that my teacher had me do um which was you know so painful uh i thought i knew what acting was and acting was like being really big and shouting your lines and being very theatrical yeah and that comes very easily to me unfortunately and uh he had not in a musical it's a good thing to have in a musical in a big theater it's a great

thing to have it's just not appropriate for every scenario as i have learned yeah um and so he had me say the first line probably like 25 times until i just didn't know what to do and was so broken down that I just spoke it. And he's like, great, there you go. Now do the whole scene like that. And I was just baffled by the whole thing. And so when I get nervous, some of the bigness kind of just comes in. And so we'd been, I was really nervous at the read through. And so the bigness has come in and we're all like, you know, it's a read through.

It's this. No one's expecting anything great and then meryl just whispers the first line as miranda which i had thought she was gonna i mean in my lack of imagination laugh lack of experience uh self i just thought she was gonna play it like barking and do this and do that right you know and the fact that she whispered yeah and everyone in the room got silent still and we all leaned forward it was just i don't think i'll ever forget it yeah i mean it was just and i just thought oh brilliant and suddenly everyone got like 90 better in their acting and um and i just and then she cared so much about the look of the character she she worked harder than anybody on that movie.

And it was just, I just remember the way she can make everything really still, you know, when she wants to. And you know that scene where all the makeup's off and you find out that they're worse? I have never seen a crew be more aware that something's about to happen. And everyone worked as quickly as I've ever seen them work, as quietly as I've ever seen them work. Everyone just, nobody wanted to interrupt. And there was just such respect paid her in that moment and the way people did their jobs. It was unreal. And that's the kind of thing you only see

if there's nudity, usually. So there's this emotional nudity and they were equally as respectful. Yeah, yeah. And they were. Well, you hope that people will be respectful. I've had it both ways. Oh, with real nudity?

Yeah. Okay. I had a really skeevy thing happen to me in my first nude experience. When was that? It was a film. Yeah, it was a film called Havoc. Right. Which is notable for being Channing Tatum's first film.

Okay. And there's a scene in it where I sort of pull my bra down and I'm trying to seduce this character. It's a very sad scene. Yeah. And I was really scared about it, and we'd asked the whole crew to clear out. I had the whole thing, whatever it's called, where you, you know, only the most...

Closet. Yeah, closet, thank you. And I did the first take, and I did it, and they all cut and i look up and two crew guys had snuck into the upstairs and watched the whole thing oh and i just remember turning and being like um there's there's there's somebody upstairs and i'm 19 years old and yeah and they just gave me the dirtiest smiles on their way out it was so horrible men some some men yeah some men sure crew guys crew couple of dirty crew guys those dirty crew Men. Some men. Yeah. Some men.

Sure. Crew guys. A couple of dirty crew guys. Those dirty crew guys. There's some good ones and there's some bad ones. It's not all Julie Andrews songs and Meryl Streep scenes. So I thought you held your own very well in that scene and in that whole movie. But you went back to school.

You were already a working actress. You decided to go back to college or go to college. Was that to, because you're like, this might not work out? Or was it because you, what, you did two years at Vassar

and then you switched? Switched to NYU, yeah. Because you were so shit-faced all the time at Vassar. So shit-faced. You had to get left just to, like burned all your bridges and embarrassed yourself

and you had to go to another college. Because I was so, I kept leaving. So all my friends had graduated. Oh, because you were working. And Poughkeepsie is, yeah. And the truth is, I mean, honestly, like I can't take credit for any kind of like,

oh, I wanted to go to college and improve myself. I wanted to work. I just couldn't get, I just wasn't booking jobs. I booked the Princess Diaries and I didn't book anything to follow it up, so I went to college. I was not psyched about going, and it turned out to be one of the best things that's ever happened to me. And you transferred to an acting program or no? No, no, no. I was studying.

I mean, I wasn't at Bass for long enough to declare a major, but I was going to be an English major with an emphasis on poetry. Oh, good. One of those useful degrees. I did that, English emphasis on film studies. one of those useful uh degrees i did that english emphasis on film studies who's your favorite poet my oh god what a question um when you go to i love roomie oh yeah i love ee cummings oh yeah um my husband just read me a baudelaire poem the other day that just for that's first time you heard about no no no i'd i'd read some but it never it hadn't resonated with me that which one um i'm gonna the love of lies oh yeah yeah it's heavy stuff from flowers of evil i guess probably yeah uh but but when i was at school my favorite poet was william

blake oh yeah did you like his paintings too yes do you have you know that coffee table book which is the um the illuminated william blake yeah it's so beautiful he was out there man i'm just gonna build my own mythology he was out there yeah in a way that i aspire to be out there like yeah you want to be blakey and out there i mean i kind of can't now because i have a kid and i have to but in another little grounded stay grounded for the kid a little bit that's a lot to ask a kid to take on i guess what i was coming around to is like in in watching you work with merle because you're both powerful great actresses but it seems like your approach is

fundamentally different in that like you know i can know, Meryl Streep obviously is this singular thing. Yeah. And, you know, like you said, there's always that kind of like engaged with life thing at the core of all of the work that she does to put these characters together. Whereas like, because like even in picturing that scene, it's like I'm always conscious that one thing that you when you watch meryl streep work you're like all your thinking is like she's really amazing at this yes like you you get locked into the character but then you're like holy shit she can do anything yeah but in that scene in particular which is a good example where she's stripped down and it is an emotional scene. And you've got to know two things that you shouldn't be there. Right.

And that you have to be there for her in that moment. Right. And it just seems to me that for you, like you're very present in that in that particular responsibility emotionally is like you probably. How did you deal with that? It just seems to me that you're emotionally present all the time whereas i'm not sure she is oh oh i think from what based on my that one time i had with her on the film she she is she is emotionally even with when she like when she when the camera stops she she comes she comes out no well no but because what she did was she stayed in character the whole time.

And so she was very quiet in between takes. But I remember, you know, I would be so nervous and I was so young and I just loved her so much I couldn't hold my tongue all the time. And so, you know, I just discovered Nick Drake. And so I wanted to talk to her about Nick Drake. And so she, you know, oh, that's very interesting. Do you want me to bring you a CD? In character? Yes, that would be very, very nice.

Oh, that's funny. And then, you know, I remember this, you know, huge, I'm a huge fan of John's. But you were being you. Yeah. And there was a, you know, Venn diagram. There was a little bit of overlap there. Yeah, but that's funny, though, because that dynamic is really kind of played itself out in the movie. But I remember one day

we were stuck in traffic together. We were just filming us getting out of a car and we had to go around the block and we were stuck in traffic and it just, at a certain point

we had to talk. Yeah. Like even, I think it got to be too much for her and I started to ask her if she watched The Daily Show because Jon Stewart

was hosting it at the time and it was, you know, such an important thing for me and so I was telling her about it, telling her about it and she's listening and i think i'm sounding like really smart like talking about the daily show yeah and then i turned around like you know i actually think you know in this moment uh i really think john stewart is is saving us yeah and i'm just like oh i just said something so smart yeah and she goes hmm takes this really long pause she goes goes, I think Stephen Colbert is.

And Colbert had only been on the air for a couple weeks, and I hadn't watched the show yet, and I just was like, oh, I don't have anything to say to that. So I just shut up. But in terms of that scene, to get to your original question, was we had shot the scene in the hotel, and I observed the way the crew was and that level of you know when silence almost has a tone i just i remembered that tone and in

that on that day i intuitively just tried to listen for that tone yeah and it was the right thing to do for the scene and that tone came back in the car. And this time I knew that's what I want to do. I want to listen to it. And I knew that Andy had come far enough in her journey that she didn't need to shout her feelings anymore. She was in a quiet car with a quiet woman and she knew that she would be heard at a lower volume. And so that was the choice I made. Oh, that's a good one. I like your knife, by the way. Oh yeah, thank you. I don't know where where i inherited that it's been around for a while it's a really good one i mean it wouldn't

be great in a fight because it's kind of hard to get out knife fight how horrible i know i like to i like the cat woman i liked you in that thank you very much i thought it was very theatrical and you were big and i thought it called for that. Thank you. Les Mis, great. I'm just going to do this thing, I guess. Now musicals, you like doing them? I do love, I really do love them. And that was such a big one. That, I mean, gosh.

And it was one my mom did when I was a girl. I saw my mom play the same part that I played in it. Wow. Yeah. That's nice. Nice thing to have in common. And also, I'll be honest with you, I've watched The Intern four times. Really?

Yeah. Doesn't it feel like your best pair of sweatpants? You know what I'm amazed at? You were great, but I don't think people really realize what an amazing job he did. Bob De Niro? Yeah. How amazing is he in that movie? I agree with you.

It's like one of the best things he's done in 20 years. I agree with you. He was so delightful so such a pro and i mean like he's about to know he doesn't have to care and he cared so much and he just just created this warm wonderful character and i could tell like he would be sitting in his chair he would be bob they would say you know it's time to work and he would walk 10 steps to his mark and he would transform into Ben. It was a subtle thing, but it was there every single take. It was really amazing. Yeah, I thought he built that guy from the inside out.

Absolutely. And it was completely different, you know, from anything I've seen from him. Because like he knows how to do comedy now. But that wasn't really a comedy and there was no menace to that guy. You know, it was really like a stunning thing. And he was just playing the kind of guy that I love to see. He was playing a really interesting gentleman. Someone who was affable but had a definite point where, you know, I will go no further.

Right. On this. Exactly. I like that. He had principles. Yeah. There was a lot in there. I don't, you know, it's weird because I always talk highly about that movie.

And I don't know if that's weird, but it seems like one of those movies that are people like well that seems like a like a for regular people or older people who goes to that movie you know but i was like it's a good movie you know i've had a lot of uh guys like kind of like big like dudes who for lack of a word like work out yeah come up to me and just be like, I love The Intern. Right. I just think, you know, it's a term you don't hear too much anymore. It's a feel-good movie. It's a feel-good movie. And also the dynamic of respect between you two is like there's something unique and very

touching about it, about not just the age gap, but also that, you know, you're a powerful woman and he's this guy that's had a life that is not you know uh is being you know respectful and and not you know overshadowing but then you know it becomes revealed that there's a lot to learn you just don't i you don't see it and i think the secret strength of that film is its sweetness and um and sweetness is something that you know it's really hard because you get it wrong it It's treacly. It's saccharine. Right. It's cloying. It's awful. Yeah.

But if you can actually, like, get, like, sweetness like nectar. Yeah. Oh, that's the best. Yeah, yeah. That's my favorite. Yeah. Well, you're a great movie star. You're so kind.

Thank you. It's been like an ego bath for me. Has it? Totally. Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? I don't do that. I don't do that too often.

I didn't know how it was going to go, you know. Well, thanks for all the nice things you said about me and my movies. And I don't know. I just want to go back in time and give you a hug on 3rd Avenue in 2009. I'll take it. It's great talking to you. It was lovely to talk to you. Thank you.

She hugged me after. I'm sorry, I'll outro. That was me talking to Anne Hathaway. She did hug me after we took a selfie. It was a good selfie. I gave her a fancy mug. I finally got to talk to her. All right, enough.

I don't want my girlfriend to get crazy. They get jealous even when things are not even possible. WTFpod.com slash tour. Go get the tickets to the things. Alright? It's all there. Portland, Madison, Milwaukee,

Minneapolis for the special on the 29th. Two shows. And then Philly and D.C., wtfpod.com slash tour. I'll play some guitar. I didn't think about it much. Thank you. Boomer lives! It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th

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