WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 802 - Michael Chiklis / Kurt Braunohler & Lauren Cook

Episode Date: April 12, 2017

It turns out Michael Chiklis and Marc went to Boston University at the same time, but soon after school Michael got cast as John Belushi in the movie Wired, which almost ended his career on the spot.��Michael talks about how he bounced back with The Commish, transformed himself with The Shield, and finally got to engage his passion for music with his debut album Influence. Plus, Kurt Braunohler and Lauren Cook are in the garage to talk about their new podcast Wedlock, with Lauren on the verge of giving birth at any minute. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucksicles? What the fuckadelics? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast my podcast wtf you're listening to it i appreciate it do i sound

different i put on a couple pounds can you hear it in my voice i feel like i'm carrying a little weight in my voice no am i being crazy what's happening today on the show i have michael chickless you might know him from The Shield or The Commish. He just put a record out that he's very proud of, his debut rock record, Influence. You can get that. But you probably know him. He's on the Fox show Gotham as well. That's coming back too.

But Michael Chiklis, his name came up like i have this weird memory of him we went to college together about a year apart we didn't know each other but we had common friends and i saw him on stage and i just i just i don't know i i as i get older and not even as i get older my whole life if i have any sort of strange memory connection with people, I want to reconnect and tell them about it. And that sometimes is, you know, a lot of times they're like, no, I don't know what you're talking about, or I don't remember that at all, and it can be disappointing. But I connected with Chiklis on a lot of levels.

And he has a great story of perseverance in this fucking town. But also today, Kurt Braunohler and his wife, Lauren Cook, they come by to chit-chat a bit, a little bit about this podcast, Wedlock, that they're doing together. I love Kurt. And I think this might have been the second time I met Lauren. I'm not sure. I think I talked to her about it. So it's a fully loaded episode today.

But I don't know, man. Buster got out today. I don't know where he is. I don't know where he is. My kitten, Buster, Buster kitten, the black cat, black kitten with big ears and the Abyssinian face is uh is is gone he broke through the screen while i was at the gym that'll teach me to go to the fucking gym

anyway so buster got out and i don't know if he's coming back i mean he's eight months old he theoretically he knows where he lives but i don't know he i's coming back. I mean, he's eight months old. Theoretically, he knows where he lives, but I don't know. I've given him so many options of food, and he kind of likes them. He doesn't love any of them, but he's such a smart cat. He's out of his mind, but he would fetch and bring it back. I was starting to like him. He had a real personality. He was a real nut job. And now he's gone.

And I'm upset, but I've been through so many cats one way or the other that there's part of me that thinks, all right, well, if this is how he wants to live his life, so be it. If it was one of my oldies, if it was Monkey or La Fonda who are in their retirement and when they get outside and they're, you know, they're, they're a bit senile and they don't really know quite what to do out there. That would be much more upsetting to me. I'm upset that Buster's out, but I did get him fixed. I did feed him well. He's got, you know, he's healthy. He has his shots. He's chipped. He's got a chip in him. And, you know, so there's a lot of good things and if he chooses to be an outdoor cat or move in with some uh nice mexican people down the road and that'll be the end of our relationship

maybe he'll stop by i don't know i'll keep you in the loop but uh i'm upset about it i was just starting to like the guy but he was nuts man fucking lunatic cat And he came from the wild and now he's back in it. And we just have to see, we just have to see. That's sad. What? I got to change the end to Buster lives now. Christ. But I don't know. What am I going to do? I wandered around yelling Buster. I looked under everything. You know, I did what I could do. You know, I love the guy, but I can't fight with him. If he's going to run away, he's going to run away. Next weekend, April 21st and 22nd, I'll be at the Aladdin Theater in Portland, Oregon. I added a show on the Saturday, on the 22nd. There may be some tickets for that. Pabst Theater, Milwaukee, Wisconsin on April 27th. The Orpheum in Madison on April 28th.

I'll be at the Pantages. Is that how you say it? Minneapolis on April 29th for two shows. I'm taping a special there. Did I mention D.C.? I'm going to be in D.C. at the Warner Theater on May 13th. And I'll be at the Miriam Theater in Philly on May 12th, the night before. A lot of running around to do because I got the Glow Show,

the Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling. That's premiering on Netflix, I think, on the 23rd of June. I'm going to do some press for that. You know, I was talking about, like, I've been listening to a lot of Lee Morgan again. And I don't know if I mentioned it. The movie, I believe I mentioned it. It's called I Called Him Morgan. It's a documentary.

And I don't know why, but I'm championing Lee Morgan. This is not any sort of paid ad or anything, but he's really blown my mind. And the movie sort of blew my mind as well. And I guess it's out now. It's playing in like a dozen cities. I called him Morgan dotcom is where you can go i've just been in touch with the filmmakers and i like it so kurt braunler and lauren cook are married they've created this new podcast called wedlock with kurt and lauren it comes out april 20th exclusively on audible channels audible channels is available on the audible app and free to listen to with Amazon Prime. Kurt's new album, Trust Me, is also now available from Comedy Central Records. Kurt Bronner is good people. Funny guy, thoughtful guy, nice guy. And his wife is also very pleasant. It was nice to have them in the garage.

So here's me talking at him and talking to him and talking. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's shogun only on disney plus we live and we die we control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. With them.

So, all right. So you're about to have birth, Lauren. Yep. Any second. Any second. Yeah, she's fully cooked. Really? So it really could happen. So you're like nine months? This is nine months? This is it? Yeah, 38 weeks. And what do they tell you? They just say like, you know, just wait it out. Like you don't... Isn't there a point where you force it?

I'm trying to force it. She really wants it. I'm doing all the old wives tales tricks. Really? Yeah. It's... I'm ready. Yeah. I tales tricks. Really? Yeah. It's I'm ready. Yeah. I want it now. You've done.

You've done over it. You've put it. You've put your time in. Yes. More time than I feel anyway. It just starts to feel egregious. Like the whole thing. Yeah. We still have to do it this way.

We still have two weeks to go. And every day you're just like, get it out of me. I think. Yeah. It's really uncomfortable and the spectrum of not liking it i'm really on the far end of of being done with pregnancy and then you have to move through the whole like having it thing i know yeah apparently that's even harder but whatever but it's so worth it right we don't know we have no idea maybe we maybe we'll hate it no we won't.

No, it's going to be great. You're going to be in for a while. I mean, you know, the next part is longer than nine months. It could be a lifetime. Yes, they say that part is much harder. But I just feel like once she's outside of my body, I'll be much happier. Sure, it'll be a different relationship.

Yeah. So now, how long have you guys been together? i mean i can't i mean i remember talking to you years ago yeah i think i've met you once i don't know if you were married were you we were not married yet yeah how long have you been married two years and you're already nine months into a baby you guys knew what you wanted that was yeah going for it yeah right away and you know what did how did you meet were you a comedian i can't remember no not a comedian um i was on a date with a comedian yeah and uh and then i was at the where they were dating is that true yeah i was at a yola tango concert oh so like no nice droney swell ira music and you're on a date jamming out jamming out. Yeah. And which comedian? Do we talk about it? No, I don't think so.

I don't think we need to. Is he a peer? Is he among us? He's your peer. Oh, no. Is this a Todd Berry story? It is? That's hilarious.

He can take it. Well, Lauren claims it wasn't a date. And I was like, I think it was a date. I love Todd Berry. I hung out with Todd Berry, like, you know, all the time. He's a great guy. Yeah. Yeah.

In New York. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But yeah, it was sort of a platonic. Yeah. You went to the bar and I saw her at the bar and then we just chatted for five minutes and then she went, she left with Todd and I was with Eugene Merman and my buddy buddy chris yeah and as she left i honestly said to eugene and chris i was like

there i was pretty drunk i was like there goes a girl i'm gonna marry someday really i swear i did and then i even as i said it i was thinking you know that was like his tagline he said that about everyone i didn't i really honestly didn't but i thought right then i shouldn't say that because when i do meet the person i'm gonna marry i'll have said it drunkenly a few times so it was really the first time i said it right it was locked in and it worked and it's a good story you can you've got to stop telling the part that he said that about everybody you know like the you know you gotta you do some editorial work like when you start this new podcast yes and you tell that story romantic you can say things like uh did you didn't you say that about everybody and you tell that story, you can say things like,

didn't you say that about everybody? And you go, no, of course I know. I never felt that way. I felt it once. And then you create the warmth of your connection. So what is this project you're embarking on? Another podcast. The world needs one.

Right? Yep. We need it. We just thought, where is there a hole that we can fill? It's for Audible. And it's called Wedlock, so it's all about relationships. And we've been recording it over the past year, and it's going to come out. A year and a half.

It's been a long time coming. Oh, so you've got how many in the can? So six. Only six. It's almost like a mini TV show. It's very highly produced. Each one has like four different segments to it. We travel. Oh, travel oh really view a bunch of different people you talk to people humans in relationship yeah we actually on a on a segment we went and saw bonobos you know about bonobos

uh are those monkeys yeah and they have sex like 45 times a day that's how they negotiate almost every decision they make yeah so we were exhausting. It looks exhausting, too. And it's very loud because they scream the whole time they're having sex. They scream the whole time. Uh-huh. Well, you mean they negotiate

everything that way. Like eating. Like you can't eat until we fuck? No, like I want this food, so I'll finger you for a while and then I take the food. Wow. It's a female-led species.

Interesting. It's a mat-led species. Interesting. It's a matriarchal species. So what was the angle of that? As a couple doing a relationship podcast, we're like, can't we be more like this? Kind of. It was about cheating. That episode was all about cheating.

And monogamy, like whether or not we're meant to be monogamous. And where did that land? Did we have to listen to- Yeah, you're gonna have to listen. Big tease. But we will reveal one thing is that that is Did we have to listen to... Yeah, you're going to have to listen. Big tease. But we will reveal one thing is that that is when we conceived right after. Right after watching Monkeys?

Right after Monkeys. And we knew the exact date because we were staying with my mom. My mom was sick during that time. And we couldn't try to have a baby in her house while she was sick in the next room. So that was the time when we went to see the monkeys have sex over and over again. Now, did you plan on conceiving that night or was it more of a negotiation for some food? I was really just hungry, mostly. There was one bag of Cheetos.

And you were like, well, you're going to have to, you know, do a little work. I get the Cheetos. Right, exactly. Do a little work, Kurt, if you want those Cheetos. See what happens. And I was like, I didn't mind. I didn't mind. So you've been doing the, you've been recording these since you, Kurt, if you want those Cheetos. See what happens. I was like, I didn't mind. I didn't mind. So you've been doing that.

You've been recording these since you, how, for how long? Like a year now. So since you've been married or a little after? A little after. So we started the podcast as part of Kurt's old podcast. Right. And we recorded, you know, just like in our bathroom or on the street. Old school.

Old school. Yeah. And then Audible took a listen and they liked it. know just like in our bathroom or on the street old school old school and yeah and then uh audible took a listen and they liked it and then now it's really blown out and we've gotten to have these great interviews and go places what they gave you some money yeah so we actually and they produced it really well so it kind of sounds like a like a mini episode like an audio television show yeah uh-huh so like a full like it sounds like a day of radio yeah yeah like there's like several shows yeah yeah well that's so how like the radio yeah like how long do each of them run they're each 30 minutes long yeah but they're packed man yeah it just moves it moves really we interview a cam girl on that same episode to talk to her about cheating about uh about being like whether or not uh when men

men uh do that are they cheating exactly yeah what'd she say she thinks it is but thank god for it right i think it is but you know it's my livelihood yeah she makes it really great she makes her biggest tip one day was twenty seven thousand dollars and it's ten dollars a minute to talk And it's $10 a minute to talk to her. What? $10 a minute to talk to her? Yes. And someone tipped her $27,000?

Uh-huh. For his own work. For his own work. Yeah, just to- For helping him out do his thing. Yeah, it was just like worth 27 grand. Right. Well, a lot of the-

Wow. Well, a lot of those, they get gifts. There's a whole sort of other economy to it as well. It's really fascinating. It is like trading intimacy for money. Which one did you talk to? Taylor Stevens was her name. Oh, okay.

She's one of the biggest ones. So that sounds interesting. What else did you do? Does each show have a theme? Yes, every show has a theme. What are they? We have cheating. We have crisis, which is we kind of did a whole episode all about my mom dying last year.

Oh, yeah. Sorry, buddy. Oh, thank you. We did monogamy, kids, and- Dealing with change. Dealing with change. And that was a fascinating one where we interviewed a man who had been married to a woman for 21 years. Yeah.

And his wife decided that she was a man, and then she actually changed over to become a man, and he stayed with her, and now he's a gay man in a gay relationship. A totally fascinating interview. Yeah, but he has memories. He still has memories and photographs. Of when he wasn't gay and she was a woman.

Yeah. So it's actually sort of a new take on the second chapter. It's a new take. New take on retirement. Surprise. It's a retirement surprise. It's a retirement surprise story. Well, that's good that people are doing new things, you know.

You work hard all your life. Trying it out. Yeah. Variety is the spice of life, right? Yeah. So have you charted the whole pregnancy like month to month? Well, that's what's been interesting. I mean, we didn't know we were going to have the most intense year of our lives when we started recording this podcast.

But it has kind of been a way to check in. Yeah. Losing Kurt's mom was crazy. Yeah. I mean, we moved to the East Coast for the better part of the year to live with her. And we were trying to get pregnant the whole time because- We always knew we wanted to have a baby, but it was one- She really wanted us to have a baby.

It was one thing to maybe cheer her up. Yeah. So we were working on that. And we thought we had failed, actually. And then we found out Lauren was pregnant the day after the funeral. Wow. In a real punch, real gut punch. It's a gut punch, but also happiness.

Yeah, it's like, yeah, that's one of those. Circle of life things. Circle of life, but one of those horrible things that's tempered by something amazing. Right. Yeah, yeah, it can't just be beautiful. It was a lot in one day. It can't just be beautiful.

No, no. But we're naming it after. Sort of like the moonlight situation at the Oscars. Like it was so close to having all the focus and then bam. I know. No. Boom. Couldn't.

Didn't get the celebration. Didn't get the credit. But obviously it's different. It's a horrible loss. No, it's just like that, Mark. It's just, that's exactly what you. It's just like word baiting. Hit the nail on the head.

Yeah. I don't want to be insensitive. You're not. I can take it. But yeah, no, but it is a circle of life thing. Hit the nail on the head. I don't want to be insensitive. You're not. I can take it. But yeah, no, but it is a circle of life thing. But in terms of the pregnancy, this is a whole unknown. So you're good for episodes for probably 18 years now if the thing works.

How the relationship unfolds, when he becomes disillusioned or you do, when the kids... Why are we predicting that already, Mark? Well, I'd give it to both of you. I wasn't being specific. Well, either one of us does. Well, that's it. Have you guys talked about that? You know, the what's actually. Becoming disillusioned?

Well, what's actually going on in the minds of couples? Yeah, we try to. I mean, that's the kind of the show is trying to like kind of get into all the different types of relationships. So it's not just about a married couple. It's not just about us. It's about all types. Well, tolerance is an interesting thing. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, the compromises that people make in relationship and like what those do. Like, maybe I'm just, maybe I need to talk about my stuff. Yeah. Let's get into it. We're ready to go. That's what, should we interview you i mean do you find compromise to be uh a failure no no no no i don't think it's a failure but i think uh

you know it's something that uh you know i didn't realize was totally necessary until probably uh way older than i should that yeah perhaps everything wasn't about how i wanted it to be yeah and i couldn't do whatever I wanted. And when I couldn't, I felt like the world was ending. So now as a grown-up at 53, I find that compromise is good if you want to maintain trust and be empathetic and respect other people. Sometimes you just got to suck it up. Yep. And also that—

Big light bulb went off for you that's good it's been it's been flickering for decades it's on and then it's off again and then you just unplug it for a little while what's wrong with this fucking switch a lot of that yeah no but yeah we yeah well we've fought a lot through the pregnancy because i think that for the first time i felt like I have to do all the hard work. Yeah. And my life is impacted. And I'm just, I can do whatever I want.

Yeah, you start partying. Yeah. Yeah. And it really, it pissed me off far more than I thought it would. I was just like furious. Really? I mean, like a rage. Wow.

Yeah, because you don't know how much your life is going to change. And then suddenly you're pregnant and you can't do like 90% of the things that you want to do. Right. And so you feel like we're doing this together. Like we're making this baby together. So there should be some solidarity. Yeah. And we fought.

But also I feel like we fought. And then I realized that, oh, all of this burden has been placed on you. And that I feel like we fought, and then I realized that, oh, all of this burden has been placed on you, and that I also need to give up. He took a big vacation. This is the whole fight. What? Is that I went camping for like,

I was like, the baby's coming, I'm going to go camping for like one final time. He wanted to have one last hurrah, like in the middle of my pregnancy. With his pals or alone? With his best friends, yeah. But it wasn't just that. You went to a 40th wedding,

or 40th birthday party. Wow. Right. It was like a week-long trip. Selfish. Right? So selfish. What a fucker.

I was like, you're taking a vacation? While I'm here, you know, waddling around. Yeah, just like puking constantly. This was honest. I can't even have more than one coffee a day. Like, just like puking constantly. This was honestly.

I can't even have more than one coffee a day. Like, I can't have more than one fucking coffee a day. You're taking a vacation. Horrible, man. I stand behind that trip. I stand behind it. I like it is not a crazy thing to do. Oh, my God.

To have one final camping trip and then give up and then be like, now I am. I am a father. Whatever. He's going to take a camping trip in another six months. No, I won't. It will be two years. Oh, you've already planned it? Yeah, I've already planned it.

You told the guys? Yeah. Get them together. Same time, two years from now. We're doing this. We're going. No matter what. Well, I mean, yeah, I imagine that it's uh at some point if

you're a woman and you're pregnant and uh you know you the the idea that it's a team effort seems like a lot of lip service on behalf of the dude eventually it's like you know it's not you know like i mean no matter what they get you or exactly go out and get you food or make you comfortable or or accept everything you're going through it's still you doing it yeah it's in you every sacrifice but i did is that i think every time you have like three cocktails i'm just fuming wow this is getting more this is like so i know i'm really letting something so that's like every night i guess do we are we going further into this is Is this about Kurt's drinking? Is this an intervention?

Is that what's happening? I'm afraid to make her laugh too much. The kid might come out right now. I had Ali Wong breast pumping breast milk. Really? She did that. She pumped on the air. That's exciting.

So if we can have a baby on the air, I'm all for it. I don't know what I can do. She would be happy to have the baby right now. Spacing food. What would I have to do? Well, you'd have to go to the hospital. Right.

I mean, unless it was like really cold. Well, no, we wouldn't have to go to the hospital. We would have to sit for like five hours while she died. Maybe two days.

So you don't want to have that on your hands. That's just hanging out in the studio. That seems like it would be a real long episode. It would be a big day. You would have to cut it

and be time lapsing. We would have to do that, yeah. A lot of it's just going to be her moaning. So it'll be nice for a meditation CD, but maybe not for a podcast. Pregnant lady moaning through early contractions. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be very comforting. The unedited version is really long.

So do you know what's in there? It's a girl. Oh. Yeah. I'm going to name her after my mom. Oh, that's great. Yeah. That makes sense.

And that's a good story, sad story. Yeah. I'm going to name her after my mom. Oh, that's great. Yeah. That makes sense. And that's a good story. Sad story. Yeah. To tell her. Yeah. So right off the bat, she can have some sadness, even in the naming of her name. Yeah. You just put it in as early as possible.

Tragedy. It's going to happen. It is. You might as well introduce them to it. Just kick off with the saddest story possible. So have you painted the room and bought the stuff and all that shit? We're so ready. Oh, yeah? We're so ready. Just kick off with the saddest story possible. So have you painted the room and bought the stuff and all that shit? We're so ready.

Oh, yeah? We're so ready. At this point, it's just like an anticipation for an unknown. It's just like, how much can I prepare for something that you don't really know what the situation will be like once the challenge is over? Yeah, we had a chat the other day on the way to the doctor's office, and it was like, it's weird that it'll be all the time. Meaning like, I can picture, and this is, I mean like and again, I feel like I've always known I wanted to have a kid, but

it's weird to imagine that I can picture it for a couple hours. Yeah. That's where I drop off. I don't have any. You know, and I'm 53, there's a reason for that. Right. Because I know well enough that I'm a panicky, self-absorbed freak. I'm panicky too. And I'm like, yeah, maybe it's better'm 53 there's a reason for that right because i know well enough that i'm a panicky self-absorbed i'm panicky freak and i'm like yeah maybe it's better off there's no reason i need to make another one of those to go out into the world terrified yeah yeah it is surreal to imagine that like there's no one to hand it off to like there's no break especially because he'll be camping yeah

i have i do have a camping trip scheduled for right after the birth. Oh, the secret camping trip. It's a secret camping trip. I'm out. You okay here in the hospital? I'll be back in three days. I'll be back. Don't worry, babe.

Yeah. It's going to be great. Well, that's great. So now, when does the, because it sounds like this is going to be an ongoing thing, and I noticed that every time she started to say something, you looked terrified, which is good for podcasting that you're immediately in like where's this going what did I do a lot of trust there what is she talking yeah yeah I didn't realize look at that I didn't realize the face I was just these wide eyes yeah like what what are you telling me

did we discuss this that's good and hopefully her attitude will become more cynical and horrible. Yeah. As the kid, like she'll love the kid. Yeah. But still her resentment of you will grow. It will grow forever. For years. Oh my God.

Could it happen? I hope not. This is going to be great. It's going to be great. Yeah, you can. So what about work for you? What happens with that? Were you working?

We both work from home. We're both writer, you can. So what about work for you? What happens with that? Were you working? We both work from home. We're both writer, actor people. Oh, okay. He occasionally goes on stage from what I understand. There's a billboard of him with his big face. Coming right up. Just smiling on Sunset. Seven feet tall.

What is that for? That's for my Comedy Central special. It comes out. It will have come out March 3rd. Okay. So it'll be available for people to watch. Oh, great. When people hear this. It's a great special. Great. I'm proud of it. I'm have come out March 3rd. Okay. So it'll be available for people to watch. Oh, great. When people hear this.

It's a great special. Great. I'm very, I'm proud of it. I'm excited for people to see it. Portland at the Revolution Hall. I've been there. Yeah. That's the old high school?

Yep. Yeah, it's good. It's a good spot. It's pretty good. I played there. I played the Aladdin, too. There's good audiences up there. They're excellent audiences.

But are you, did you live there once or something? No. No, no, no. My old, my record label, Kill Rock Stars, is there. Oh, right. So I've been doing shows there for a long time. Well, that's great. Your first big special?

Yeah, and a kid. Yeah, my first big, my first televised special. First hour, yeah. First hour. Congratulations. Thank you very much. And congratulations on the Audible deal, the podcast. What's it called again?

It's called Wedlock. Wedlock. It's a great show. Well, you know, the great thing about it is in a you know what's happening why are you touching your stomach oh she just moves like she does a you know like a sharp elbow out oh yeah yeah she wants out oh yeah she totally wants out i i find i find it exciting but uh but uh frightening me too yeah i think that that's across the board yeah yeah it's like oh look this. What potential and also terror.

I don't know why someone hasn't done like a, well, I guess they did Rosemary's Baby. There it is. A horror movie version of pregnancy. Sure, sure. Yeah, see, he's got his brain in the right place, clearly. How can we turn this into some money? I like that the idea is it's wedlock,

but the challenges that you're going to have doing the podcast as this all happens. Maybe there'll be like, what do you call it? Spinoffs, you know, when you separate because of his- Harden our new partners.

His first, his fourth camping trip, you're like, I'm fucking out of it. You secretly recording from a place you've run to with the kid undisclosed location

my own personal wedlock yeah well congratulations thank you and good luck with the podcast

it's good seeing you guys you too thanks so much good to see you so check that out check out Kurt and lauren's uh podcast wedlock it's uh it's out uh on april 20th at audible channels on the audible app and on amazon prime and you know yeah go look at kurt do comedy do do it mike chick was up next uh great actor, but a hell of a story. I'll talk about Mike in a second, but here's something you might want to know about.

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That's NRDC.org slash comedy. Go make a donation to help defend our planet. Yeah, man. Spaceship Earth is soon to be hurling through space on fire. On fire. So, Chiklis. Mike Chiklis, as some of you know

from The Shield, from The Commish, but he was also cast almost freshly out of acting school not long after in the John Belushi movie, Wired, and it became a debacle. Like it was his first big break and it nearly broke him.

But before that, he was at the School for the Arts or in the acting program at BU and I was at BU about a year behind him. You know, The Shield was a pretty amazing show, obviously, and The Commish was very popular and I didn't really know that show and I didn't watch much of The Shield,

but I knew about his transformation into this different type of character, but it was really great to get to know him and his sort of commitment to theater and the craft and to acting and also the harrowing tale of being blown out i thought it was great and it was great to meet him great to talk to him and as i said he's got a rock and roll record out can i call it rock and roll is that old man talk uh his debut album influence is available now wherever you get music he's on the fox tv show gotham which returns on april 24th and is on mondays at 8 p.m 7 central this is me and michael chiklis So here's the deal. Michael Chiklis.

Mark Maron. I went to Boston University. Okay. All right. And you were this guy that I knew was in the fine arts department. And the connection was I saw you. I was doing stage troupe. I think you graduated a year ahead of me. So I did.

You weren't in the fine arts department. No, I was in the liberal arts department, but I was doing stage troupe. And I was friends with, best friends for a while with Steve Brill. Oh, no kidding. Who was in communications, but also a year ahead of me. But I was also really close with mary patton mike's sister yeah yeah and you and mike were both in the school of fine arts that's right so i kind of knew mike a little bit i knew mary but there was this world and then

but you were like this like the guy you were one of the guys over there at the school of fine arts i didn't know that and Well, in my mind. All right, that's cool. I'll take it. I like being the guy anytime I can be the guy. So I went to see a show. I think it was a Brendan Behan play. Like you were the star. Yes.

Like it was in a big room. On the main stage over at Hudson Theater. Yeah, you saw that? I saw that. That's great. And I was like, well, that's the guy. He's the big guy. So I always had this like weird half obsession with your career.

Because we went to the same school. And I didn't go to SFA. I tried to. I kind of wanted to, but I didn't get in. But I did take classes up there with a guy named Robert Young. Yeah, Bob Young. Bob Young. Comedy classes.

Yeah. Odd things are funny. Yeah. Threes are funny. Fives are funny. Yeah. Threes are funny. Fives are funny. Is that what he said? That was his whole thing. Yeah, he was into odd numbers.

Yeah, he was a weird little guy. Anything odd. Yeah. He was odd. He was odd. He made me do a monologue from Cyrano being held back by three people. I think he sensed my anger and was trying to minimize it. Oh, God.

Bill Young. But let's go through it because you have had an interesting career that started off a little rocky, but where'd you grow up? I grew up in, well, I was born in, we were like the white version of the Jeffersons. We moved on up. I was in Lowell. Lowell, Massachusetts. I did one of my first comedy gigs there.

Oh, no kidding. At the Derby Park. park at the herpy park you know that place we called it herpy park was it like where you drank when you were in high school yeah that's where you drank and oh there was a great story that one of my best friends punched the bouncer there and got his shit kicked out of him really yeah yeah herpy park it was like it was like the one bar in town yeah it was like a hole you know well you know i mean it was a big bar and it was just a you know it was a place to go and you know drink and pick up chicks when we were in high school well yeah it was like uh they had a comedy night right and it was like in that i remember it was later though right oh yeah it was it must have been like uh it was probably 89

you know when i was doing that but they had this weird kind of not even a real stage i just remember it was in the corner there was brass railing around it right and uh you know it was one of my first i think it was probably my first paid gig i was opening for some right downtown there right in the middle of the town and uh but my father you know having been raised in the acre there which is a you know it was just a really down dead mill town yeah and my father wanted to you know do better by us so he moved us to andover yeah which is you know uh the opposite you know it's very waspy you know yeah i mean they considered me like like one of the parents of one of the kids there once said to me chickless what sort of a name is that and i said it's greek and he goes

oh you're ethnic how charming really yeah but also like lowell's got all that you know uh jack kerouac history yeah my dad knew him really yeah i didn't know him well i would be he knew him right because he was around later he was around yeah my father was in that beat generation he was a cat you know i call my dad daddy oh yeah yeah was he uh involved in the arts he was just a jazz aficionado and believe it or not my father's a hairdresser oh really yeah he opened a small chain of beauty salons during that time because he saw like there was this gap there were only barber shops or uh beauty parlors right yeah and he wanted to do this unisex salon you know and he did that yeah really successfully so he was able to you know move us we moved on up he had a chain

of beauty salon well yeah at one point he had a couple of shops but now he just has the one and he's long retired but his wife still works it really yeah so he was a he was a barber well no he was a he was a hairstylist oh i get it i get it he started out at barbara yeah yeah yeah and the thing is he's such a tough guy too to meet my father you'd think like he was like a construction worker alpha barber an alpha barber yeah yeah and i was like you know worker. Alpha barber. An alpha barber. Yeah. And I was like, you know, dad, how did you get into this? He's like, it was style, man. He liked it.

It was style. In the 50s, it was all about style. Yeah. Did he do shaves and stuff back in the day? He did all kinds of shit. You know, I. Bottles of blue stuff. And then he moved into the creams.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He evolved with the industry. Exactly right. You know, went down and studied with Vidal Sassoon for a little while. Did he? Yeah. then he moved into the creams and yeah yeah yeah he evolved with the industry exactly right you know went down and studied with vidal sassoon for a little while yeah he was a cat my dad's a cat you know he turned me on to jazz as a little kid and you know brought me to the newport jazz festival every year for years and years and that's how i really got into music and playing drums

yeah well you're just playing my guitar You seem like you have a few chops. Yeah, I'm all right. I mean, I don't play guitar. I mean, I do in that I write on guitar, but I'm a drummer. That's, you know, and I'm a singer. Yeah. But guitar and bass, I'm actually a much better bass player than I am a guitarist. And I think it's because it's where the rhythmic meets the, you know, where the percussive meets the melodic.

Right. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, bass players, like the rhythm section is very important. rhythmic meets the you know yeah yeah percussive meets the melodic right yeah yeah well yeah i mean bass players like the rhythm section is very important they're like they're they're not appreciated as much as they should be that's right well and you will love the the rhythm section on my record is yeah they're pretty solid i listened to it i mean they sent me the cd what's it called what's the name of the influence because i went back i mean if i'm gonna put out my first solo album i have to go over some of my influences. Would you call it a vanity project,

or are you really throwing your hat in the ring? No, it's not a... No, I'm really throwing my hat in the ring. You know, it's something... What? Is that a bad question? Well, no, it's just... No, it's something that I think that every actor who wants to put out music...

Yeah, has to deal with. ...faces and has to deal with. They're up against it, yeah. You know, because immediately there's a a lot of eye rolling and like oh here we go but i've been a musician my whole life so you know fuck it i i just this is a love thing yeah it's not a vanity thing it's a love thing yeah it's about having guys like steve lucather come over to my house and blow a guitar solo yeah my music yeah yeah you know that's fun that's sure that's not vanity that's love you know what i mean so

honestly the great thing is i don't have to make my living as a musician because it sucks and it's hard to do right now at 50 whatever well at any age because right now people aren't buying records you just don't yeah uh i mean you know paul Paul McCartney put out a record and 100,000 people bought it in America. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul McCartney. Yeah, I know. But there are people making money in music. No, there aren't.

Not off of records. No, not off record sales, but they're figuring out other ways. Live touring. Well, you know, I've made some money off of this record by licensing songs. Like they licensed a couple of things for the Super Bowl from me. They did? Yes, it paid for the cost of the record.

Well, you got one of those great belting voices. Thanks. Well, you know, some of it's anthemic, because I'm very influenced by bands like Queen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? You know, rock and rollers of that time when we were in college. Sure.

No, I get it. Was this always the dream? Was this always the thing that, you know? I was always in bands in college, all through high school, college, and afterwards. And then I was in a band that was unreal at that time that we were recording our first studio album and I got the role of John Belushi in the film Wired.

Well, yeah, let's talk about that trajectory because that was sort of an interesting story because like i don't know if i ever knew the whole story but oh fuck that's a long story man that's the whole thing about it but like because you know you did bounce back you did have a great career you do have a great career but i mean the the rocky beginnings i remember hearing about it because i was a belushi fan but i don't know what i heard or what is real so you graduate bu yeah and you move out here well you know how we had the the league auditions uh the the top 10 schools of theater in the country have these things called the they're in the theater league right right you know carnegie mellon and nyu and uh you know just a bunch of schools that are julia right bu is right there i mean we consistently put out really great people yeah it's a great program sure it is i remember people in that program yeah tammy tweedy tammy yeah julianne moore yeah well she's she was

the year before me yeah really i didn't know that yeah she's my buddy uh so we went down to new york and i you know you hope that you get your your an agent sees you or something and i was really lucky i got my first agent out of that and also i was seen for my first movie which was the wired yeah and it took two and a half three years after i graduated for that to actually come to fruition so you get the agent there's this project that they i auditioned for it right out of college literally i was still in college when i think and i think that audition tape is around is that right or am i thinking about no you're thinking about the new shield one uh it's around It's out there. But I don't know what happened to that audition.

I auditioned like 12 times over two years. For the John Belushi story? For the John Belushi story because it kept going out of production. And then a new director would get attached. It was so troubled. And I didn't know, like naively, I was a theater rat in New York, man. I didn't know what was happening in Hollywood. So you moved to New York. You auditioned for the thing. You're rat in New York, man. I didn't know what was happening in Hollywood. So you moved to New York. You auditioned for the thing.

You're living in New York. Yeah, I'm living in New York doing off-Broadway theater at La Mama down in the East Village. And I'm working at a restaurant and a comedy bar. Yeah, which comedy bar? A place called Comedy U Grand down in Soho. Oh, my God. Did you ever go there? No, I don't know.

Everyone was going there at the time. And that's how I got to know Larry David. And that led to my appearance on Seinfeld. And just so many people used to come through there. Comedy U Grand. Comedy U Grand, it was called, in Soho. It was a little sliver of a joint, man. And like, wow, what year was that?

Maybe 90 seats. I don't remember that. That's like before my time. That's the 85, 86, maybe 87. Oh, yeah. And people were hanging out there. I don't know that. That's like before my time. That's the 85, 86, maybe 87. Oh, yeah. And people were hanging out there. I don't know that place. Oh, yeah.

Like I was bartending. I kind of pride myself on knowing all the places. Oh, yeah. I was bartending there and I'd go up sometimes on open mics and try my hand at it. Oh, yeah? Especially since I thought I might end up doing the Belushi story, right? Right, right, right. And I mean, so many of the people that are huge now and we're you know just coming

up uh whether it's jerry or brett butler or uh you know rosie o'donnell went to bu right was in my freshman class and got cut from bu i think i kind of knew and i walked her back to the the dorms and she i just listened to her like she paced around going i'm gonna fucking her back to the dorms and I just listened to her. She paced around going, I'm going to fucking go back to New York and do what I do. I'm going to do stand up. And it worked out okay for her. It did. Yeah, sure, sure. So I've always felt ties to stand up and I've had a lot of friends in that area.

But Comedy You Grant, I loved working at. It wasn't a long time that I worked there because shortly after I started working there, I ended up getting wired, which was in 88, which I can't believe it's 29 years ago. Isn't that wild? And when I went out here, I came out here to LA. I shot that for five years. I mean, five months. Hello. And I had no idea until two and a half months into it that there was any controversy surrounding it.

So you're shooting it. Who ended up directing it? Larry Pierce, who never worked, essentially, after that. Yeah, and how was the experience? How was the script? What was, you know, because it... Well, the script I had troubles with, but, you know, like, I'm... That's from the Woodward book, is it?

Who wrote that book? Wired by Bob Woodward. And it was kind of the sordid, you know like i'm that's from the woodward book is it who wrote that wired by bob woodward and it was kind of the the sordid you know what it was was that i and i challenged him at the time i remember saying to him you know have you ever smoked a joint yeah you know and he he was very buttoned up and he literally spoke like you know like black comedians version of a white guy yeah yeah yeah you know he's very like yeah you know uh no i i certainly did not yeah yeah and uh you know so he wrote the he actually wrote the script the you know he wrote the book you met with him well no i met him during the process of making this show but but the problem was i was i you know here i am i'm an actor i'm

an empath i'm trying to honor john yeah i'm trying to come from that place and you know here i am i'm an actor i'm an empath i'm trying to honor john yeah trying to come from that place and you know everything was very sort of damning yeah you know what i mean it was and it's because i think the way woodward put it to me was like hey man i'm a i don't write prose yeah i'm an investigative reporter i don't write something unless I can corroborate it from five independent news sources, which, by the way, can you imagine today? Right. It just doesn't happen. Sure.

But he's like, I just, you know, but the problem is when you write, John did this, John did that, John did this. Yeah. In black and white, it reads as an indictment on him and the people around him. Sure. white it reads as an indictment on him and the people around him sure it lacks the humanity of all the good things and wonderful things about john and who he was as a person which i tried to bring to the dance but i had no idea that on the other side of it was his family and friends and business associates absolutely apeshit about the book and wanting the book never to be made into a film and then

once we started to make it basically them going anyone involved with this film is done so that's brillstein and uh and uh more importantly because he was the king of the world at that time right and you know i find this out two and a half months into production. Oh yeah. And the way I found out was insane. I, I, we shot at the palace theater on vine. Yeah. Just off of Hollywood Boulevard.

We shot the blues. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. We're there for like three whole days. We're shooting.

And it was an incredibly exciting time for me. I'm playing Belushi. Yeah. Academy award-winning producer at Feldman, you know incredible time 23 24 years old right just insane um your big break it's huge yeah it's huge and and and mtv is there and entertainment tonight and they all do interviews with me and i go back to my apartment that night in in beverly Hills that they have me all set up and

I, you know, and I turn on the television and I watch the interviews on MTV and then they do this whole thing with me. And then halfway through the segment, the horror movie music comes in and they do this stinger and all of a sudden they cut to Dan Aykroyd going, all my witches, all my And they cut to Dan Aykroyd going, all my witches, all my curses, you know, to anybody involved in this project. And I was like, what? What? And this is how I found out. On MTV. On MTV.

And I call the producer and the director and I go, get the fuck over here right now. And they came over and they were like, you know i won't really you didn't you don't know about this i'm like no no one ever told me and no one ever discussed it you're in the process and i'm already the guy and now i'm the you know and also media didn't work as fast as it does now no it's just a different world then you know if you were a theater you know theater rat new york yeah you didn't know what the know, theater rat in New York. Yeah. You didn't know what the fuck was going on in Hollywood. Sure.

I didn't know who Michael Ovitz was. Yeah. There's just a couple of sources of information. Yeah. You know, I was reading the New York Times every day and the New York Times wasn't writing about that. So you just find this out. Yeah. And I, you know, I freaked out and, but I had to do, I was in, was in, so I did the best that I could do.

How much more shooting was there after you found out? Half of it. Oh my God. I tried to put it aside. I tried to put it out of my mind. I tried to, my mantra was sort of like, don't fight. Just let the work speak. The work, the work, the work.

Right, right. But also, I didn't really think that anyone would take it out on me. You know what I mean? I was just an actor. Sure. And it turns out, you know, I got back to New York crickets. And not based on the work, not based on anything. Just based on the order that had been put out.

Yeah, the order had been put out clearly because my agent called me and apologized. She was like, darling, I can't get you seen for an under five, which is like a- What is that? An under five line bit part. Really?

Nothing. It was over. So you have to go back to theater. It's over. This is before the movie's even released yeah yeah like right directly following you rap rapping and coming to new york and i was an up-and-coming guy you know what i mean like you said it was the guy you know what i mean like there was some buzz about right nope like you're done wow so i went like well all right and it was terrifying and shitty and bad but what'd

you end up doing did you like say i gotta get a job i go well you know look let's start auditioning fortunately i mean i got paid a lot of money for me at the time sure you know what i mean uh so i had this little apartment in brooklyn it didn't cost much money so and you stashed the bread i stashed the bread and i was there you know know, sort of. But my career was over. And I just said, well, let's go back to theater. Yeah. So I ended up auditioning and getting the role of, believe it or not, Stanley in Street Carnage. I went back to Lowell and did play Touchstone in You Can't Take It With You.

You went home for what? I went home to Merrimack Regional Theater, the theater that I helped to start when I was like 14 years old in Lowell, Massachusetts. Oh, you really did? Yeah. And it's still one of the thriving equity regional theaters in the country. So was that part of, in your mind, you're like, I'm going to go home for a while.

Let me see if I can get a gig there or it just happened. Well, no, it just happened. And like, you know, I was telling some old friends from back there, you know, I'm done. I can I, I can't get seen. No, I can't get arrested. No one will see me. Yeah. And, uh, they were like, well, could you want to come back here and do a show? And I was like, sure. I mean, you know, so I went back and did that. And then I auditioned for this thing at the players Theater of Columbus, Ohio. And I went to, you know, I was brutally humbled by that whole process because I had only aspired to be in films my whole life. I didn't even intend on doing television. I was a snob. I was like, I'm going to do theater and film. Right.

But then the film was just over. Not based on anything other than you did this project. We are in control of the town we don't want you in anything oh my god terrifying the guy who broke it was um burt reynolds he was the one who basically you know through a friend that worked on wired with me unbeknownst to me my friend called me and said hey why don't you come down to florida and go fishing with me and i went down there and uh got waylaid he basically introduced me to burt on the set of bl striker and burt was like listen i i heard what happened to you yeah i grew up during the mccarthy era i don't believe in blackballing. How'd you like to play the villain in this next movie of the week that we're doing?

And I was like, and boom, literally when he hired me, all of the television doors opened up again because it was a television movie of the week. Right. And like overnight now, all of a sudden I'm up for like 12 pilots. And what was the time in between, you know, you being blackballed and this happening? Well, it was about, let's see, it was early spring or it's late spring. And what was the time in between you being blackballed and this happening? Well, it was about, let's see, it was early spring or it's late spring that I finished the movie. And all through the spring, the summer, the fall, I couldn't get seen for anything.

And then in the late fall, this thing happened with Bert. and i was working on that um but i still was booked on streetcar named desire so i had to go and do that and how was that playing it was a dream because i loved that yeah play and you know um interestingly uh right after that that that's when the Cannes Film Festival opening for Wired was, right after I finished that. So the first question I was asked by the International Press Corps at Cannes was- You went? Yeah, I went. Yeah, oh, shit, yeah, I went. That was bold.

Here you are, persona non grata, but you're like, I'm going to go. Oh, yeah, well, they wanted me to go. They wanted me to promote the film. And also, you know know i wanted to see what that was yeah sure which is an incredibly overwhelming experience yeah yeah a kid from andover you know yeah uh and how was that it was insane i you know i had did they respect the movie or did they, you know, were they. It was the big movie of the opening. It was the controversial movie of the thing. And no, the movie was maligned. Generally, it was because it's not a it's not a great film.

And I mean, it got the director's cut that I saw was a far better film than the film that was released. And I think it was just cut to pieces because of all the lawsuits pending against it. released and i think it was just cut to pieces because of all the lawsuits pending against it but i'm glad that i didn't like lash out or lash back at anybody or fight with anybody and or fall into yourself or go into a depression right fucking blow my head off and i i just said keep working work wherever you can work and do the best work you can do and that's what's going to out was my thought yeah that's the only thing out of i guess blind terror and not knowing what else to do that's what i went with and it worked out thankfully so all right so burke gives you the gig you do the tv movie

and yes how was that thing that was awesome and i mean you know rita moreno was in it yeah you're putting on the phone with marlon brando oh really yeah she's like i'm like what are you doing next michael i go oh i'm i'm uh i'm playing stanley in streetcar she goes well you know my friend marlon originated that and i was like yeah i know yeah because we used to talk to him he's a sweetheart i'm like no i'm not gonna okay so like 20 minutes later she's got a cell you remember the brick the gray cell phone she's like walking out yeah she's like oh it's he and i'm like what and she hands me the phone don't do it you'll upset yourself every night tennessee williams is crazy you can't i'm like it's the reason i became an actor oh fuck that anybody can be an actor it's any like I'm like, it's the reason I became an actor. Oh, fuck that. Anybody can be an actor.

It's any like, I'm like, well, yeah, yeah. He's encouraged me not to do it. Cause it would drain you. Yeah. Cause I'd be, you'd upset yourself. The quote that's burnt into my mind. Was he right? No, he wasn't right.

No, it was so disappointing. I never got to meet him in person god rest his soul but it sounds like you had a pretty good conversation it was probably better off on some level i really barely spoke i was so gobsmacked i was like and i look at her and i go what did you do and she's like oh quiet you know quiet. She was so funny. And Ozzie Davis and Ruby Dee were in that. I mean, it was crazy. And Bert took me to that dinner theater. Down in Florida? Yeah.

That's where I met Charles Nelson Reilly and all these different friends of his that were out of their minds. Dom DeLuise? Dom, yeah. Yeah, who I became friends with. He came and saw me when I did a one-man show on Broadway. Oh, really? Yeah. He was a funny guy. Yeah, I'm friends with he came and saw me at my when i did a one-man show on broadway oh really yeah he was a funny guy yeah i'm friends with all his children i ended up getting an op when i went up to vancouver to do the shield he was not the shields i mean the commish he was on um 21 jump street oh yeah yeah at that time so that time. But your interest, you started a theater in high school?

I didn't. Yeah. Well, yes. I don't want to be too much of a credit monger. Right. I had been cast in the summer stock season as a ninth grader. Yeah. That's my first professional gig in semi-pro summer theater yeah thing what

was the role it was just a bunch of uh bit roles back you know you know in in uh big famous musical revivals right you know bye-bye birdie carnival yeah you know so yeah okay get your gun you were in rotation you were the kid yeah i was we was the kid. I was local hire, right? Yeah, yeah. And during that time, the guy who was the director of that production hired me, a guy named Mark Kaufman, became my sort of theatrical mentor. He saw me in himself, saw my ambition, saw my talent, and sort of winged me. Yeah.

And he became friends with my family my mother and father so he would drive me home after rehearsal because i was on the way to his place right we would go in the backyard it was summertime we'd have my father would be cooking on the grill we'd sit and we talk about life and different things and at one point he said hey i noticed you know there's no there's no regional theaters around here where do you guys go when you want to see great theater, legit theater? And I said, well, we go into Boston. He goes, do you think that the Merrimack Valley

could sustain a theater company? I go, absolutely. And I said, and I was only 14, but I said, the reason why I know that is because every production you go to, whether it's just a high school production or a community theater, it's packed to the rafters.

There's an appetite for people want to, they're bored community theater, it's packed to the rafters. There's an appetite for people want to, they're bored around here. You know, there's nothing to do. They want to go and see something. So we embarked on opening this theater and I went with him to all these different meetings and, you know, and, and I really, really want, I was like a protege. I helped and watched and was privy to this process. Yeah. You know, watching this guy. I mean, he was his baby and he opened it.

Sure, sure. A 30-something-year-old man. And he's bringing this kid around. He brought me along, yeah. He brought me along for the ride and it was one of the most incredible, you know, experiences just in a lot of ways, but also seeing the nuts and bolts of the business. Sure. Work, you know. Even at that level. Yeah. nuts and bolts of the business. Sure. Work.

Even at that level. Yeah. To try to get the funding to do a theater. Going to Nancy Donahue and having her contribute a ton of money. She was one of the, you know, the, the,

who is she? Big socialite and Lowell, you know, had a ton of money, you know? So we, you know, we tapped into certain people.

My father is, you know, cutting hair and telling everybody about the theater and everybody wants to get involved. They want to be members of the board. So they, you know, we helped to make this thing,

me and my family helped to make this thing a staple. And now I'm a permanent member of the board and I, you know, that's just a... Is it still working? Yeah, yeah. It's all these years later,

40 years coming up. That's a great story. Yeah, yeah, It's all these years later, 40 years coming up. That's a great story. Yeah, yeah, pretty cool. You were integrated into the theater. Well, that's when I really absolutely fell in love for good. You know, that year when I played Hawkeye in MASH in ninth grade, believe it or not. Like, how hip is that that they did that? You know what I mean?

Who does that? I don't think they cut a thing out of it was that a weird cat was it a why was there some an artistic choice to cast a ninth grader or was it i was just a wise ass you know and that's when the casting director for the summer theater saw me encouraged encouraged me to go and do it. And then I met Mark and boom. That was it. I'm in. That's your life. Yeah. Yeah.

The rest of my life. So now you're back in the loop after Reynolds throws you the line. Yeah. Next thing you know, I'm on Miami Vice. You're doing bit parts. Well, no, I'm not doing bit parts. I'm doing guest stars now. Okay. parts well no i'm not doing bit parts i'm doing guest stars now okay now i'm like you know i'm the guest star of you know the week on all the big shows of that period yeah whether it was miami

vice or murphy brown seinfeld right you know i still i'm really you know i'm i'm a working actor looking for the next and And you're living out here? No, I'm still in New York. I'm still in Brooklyn. Wow, being cast out of New York for big shows as well. Being cast out of New York for big shows. And then Wiseguy happened. Yeah.

And I went to Vancouver and shot a five-show arc on Wiseguy. What was that show? Wiseguy, Ken Wall. Oh, yeah. You know, Kevin Spacey, Ch uh chas palm and terry oh yeah and i did this five show arc with chas you know playing one of his minions right and i was just a hot-headed minion and yeah you know and um steve cronish who was one of the head writers of that show yeah watched me do this scene where i flip out and you know shoot a uh ping pong not ping pong a pinball machine yeah you know yeah to shit

and he he pulls me aside and goes hey listen you know i just watched you shoot that scene and i have a pilot that i've written and you're way too young for it but you're the guy yeah and i was like well cool what is it he goes it's a i know you're you know because at this point i'm like 25 yeah he goes you're just innately the guy but you in 15 years you're right right i go well i can age up but what is it you know of course actors you know i could do it yeah you know yeah and he goes it's about a police commissioner i go oh shit in my head i go like oh fuck you know he goes but he was the youngest police commissioner in the history of the united states like 37 that was based on true story yeah yeah okay the the police commissioner

of rye new york a guy named tony shembury great guy yeah and they called him tony scally in the show so i i auditioned for it um the uh in front of steve cannell and then cannell said look we gotta we gotta in order to get this at cbs who who owned it at the time yeah we have to trick them we have to we're going to shoot you but we're going to age you up because the president of the of cbs at that time uh just he was not a creative type he was you know and they probably had some guys in mind well yeah you know that and you know well they had tried a bunch of people and they just couldn't find the guy for a long time. So I shoot the thing, like three scenes of it.

We send it over to CBS. He's like, awesome. He's the guy who can't wait to meet him. So I go to meet him as a matter of course, because it's done now. Yeah. But I made the mistake of going in jeans and a t-shirt. Uh-huh. And as soon as I walked in his office,

he looked at me and went, you're a young man. And I went, well, yeah, but you saw the tape and he was like, could you excuse us? And he'd like dismissed me.

Oh my God. I was like, here you go again. Sent back to the, the hotel phones ringing Steve candle. Sorry, chicky. It's over.

And he's freaked out at how young you are he doesn't think he can do it what the fuck that's Mark Maron what the fuck and he saw the tape and everything he saw it yeah but his brain divorced from it he was just like you can't be that young and play this role and I was like motherfucker

so I moved on with my life and cut to like a year and a half later the phone rings and it's steve cronish and cronish goes chickless uh you know uh the do you want to play the commission i go fuck you dude he goes uh i thought he was playing with me he goes no i mean it uh it's now at abc and i had just done a pilot for ABC that didn't go. Yeah. But the guys at ABC were like they wanted me for a show.

Yeah. And that's how the commission was born. It happened. We went to ABC and ended up doing that show there. How'd you deal with that rejection of that like sign in the fucking deal and then like you know. That's the thing about my career I've been bitch slapped around

and then risen up after it so many times at this point. You know those things that you punch and they go down to the ground and then they come back up again? Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what my wife calls me, is one of those things. I don't know what they're called, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, because I know innately not to take it personally. I don't think any of this has been personal. Right. I think that this is a huge industry. Because I know innately not to take it personally. I don't think any of this has been personal. Right. I think that this is a huge industry. There's a lot of people vying for position.

And, you know, producers are trying to fit puzzles together. Like, if you look at the role of a network president, for example. Yeah. the role of a network president, for example. Yeah. He's got, or she has got, you know, a $250 million plus budget in front of them for a year of television at any given time. Right. It's probably not even accurate.

It's probably more than that. Yeah. So, you know, that's a lot to sort of compartmentalize. And you've got a lot of people working underneath you. And basically, you've got to look at it like a jigsaw puzzle like oh marin fits here chick list is perfect for this you know yeah yeah and they just try to plug you in right and that's why it's become such a thing over the last two decades about branding oh you gotta have a brand yeah what's your fucking brand you know somehow i've always raged against that shit yeah you know

because i whenever i start to form a brand i break it and go in a different direction in terms of it as an actor as an actor right like what's your what's your uh wheelhouse well i mean i think that the industry would say cops because my you know two of my most successful things were playing police officers, even though they were antithetical to each other. Right. The commish and the shield. So let me ask you something, though, because I remember like part of the obsession that

I had in wondering, you know, where you went and how, because like, I didn't know Mike Patton that well, but my friend Steve was friends with him, but they had a contentious relationship. But I knew Mary pretty well, and I'd met Mike a couple of times. And I just saw you guys as like, you know, I got these rumors back you know because mike was a good actor yeah really i saw him in uh indian wants to bronx i think yeah i was in that you were there i played the indian guy that's right the indian believe it or not me i saw that you know why i remember it now oh you saw that you want to know why i remember yeah because i wanted to be an actor but I was over in the liberal arts college.

So I remember it because Mike, he had a piss in the garbage can one time. Yeah. There was a piss scene where he had a piss with his back to the audience. I remember during one of the scuffles, the squirt bottle fell out of his pocket. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, that's what... I remember that happening. That's so crazy. You do? Yeah, because he was horrified that happening. That's so crazy. You do? Yeah, because he was horrified. Yeah. He was so embarrassed. Right.

Oh, my God. Wow. That's a long time ago, man. Yeah. And that was a challenging role because you really said very little and you just had to be terrified the whole time. I was a victim. Yeah.

I just remember that now. That was you, of course. So, yeah. So, I do have a history with you. Do you have a history with me? I don't know. But I remember there was a, like, I known that Mike was doing, you know, like Shakespeare. That you guys went these divergent routes.

Are you guys friends? We're Facebook friends at this point. Right. You know, we had sort of, you know, a falling out. And some years went by. And I think when Facebook happened, I reached out to him and went like, hey, man, you know, we're really. And some years went by, and I think when Facebook happened, I reached out to him and went like, hey, man, you know, we're really good friends.

Yeah, yeah. You know, why aren't we still really good friends? And he was like, yeah, absolutely. And he, you know, and he accepted my friend request. And we, now we, but, you know, he lives in Seattle and I live here. And I, you know, if I go up to Seattle at some point, I will absolutely call him and look him up. Does he have a family and stuff?

You got a family? I do. That really changed the equation of my life. Once I got married and then I had one daughter and then I had another daughter. And then it becomes everything. Yeah, responsibility. It really does i mean and a lot of friendships end up falling by the wayside especially when there's geographical problems you know yeah uh i've

tried to maintain you know my five best friends from high school are still my five best friends yeah yeah funny how i like that yeah yeah they they knew you before what you know they're never gonna judge you as anything i don't give a. Yeah. You're still the guy that they knew. Yep. You know, I go to, I'm on the board at BU. Yeah. You know, I'm a, I, you know, for the Dean's Advisory Board. Yeah, yeah.

And I speak to the freshmen about craft because they're about to go into the bubble. Yeah. And I speak to the seniors about the world the business the business yeah so there's a vocational aspect to that but speaking to the freshmen i always say to them you have to define success for yourself yeah because if it's just all about the you know holding awards in your hand and the glam and all that shit that's a very finite thing and only a few people in that yeah that's a real tight ring there's like seven rings in the business you know to get into that that ring is yeah you know and i know a lot of people who are you know work a day actors who who

who are in it you know who they are they're in your you know your psyche yeah you know like a guy like brian howe been around forever been in a you know dozens of movies television series he's currently on west world he's amazing yeah uh this guy but i don't think anyone really knows brian's name per se i know i don't now i have to google he's one of the and he's a really successful and tremendous actor highly respected everybody loves brian but i you know there's there's all different places in the business you know i look at uh nina tassler who was an acting major at boston university yeah she ended up oh yeah that guy she ended up going yeah you know who he is sure you've seen him dozens of shit right so uh nina ends up going behind the scenes ends up working for a guy named

les moonves when he's a producer at laura mar boom boom boom they keep on you know working their way up and next thing you know she's the president of cbs yeah for a long time and incredibly successful so everybody has their path right everybody goes in the business in the business you know um you know i knew i knew you somehow and there was some sort of connect someone and i can't you know how life what are we you're 52 53 yeah yeah 53 years old so many different things i've traveled so much and so you know i remember distinctly having a conversation about you with somebody and i can't remember whom but i remember them saying like uh and i thought it was bu was a bu connection well that's interesting that at least you know you're you're still giving

back and you know and you know trying to help the people with the dreams absolutely i you know my daughter just graduated from usc uh-huh and uh this past year and she was a theater major although now she identifies herself as a writer who acts and she just signed a book deal as a matter of fact oh really yeah incredibly she's writing a novel and she wow got about a third of the way through it pitched it and yeah it's great yeah and it's going to be out a year from now uh mother's day of 18 uh and it's you know it's a brilliant fiction you know it's comedic it's about her relationship with her mother it's called raising mom uh-huh it's brilliant and is it based on truth yes very much so we're all represented in it but it. But it's definitely fiction at the same time.

She's fashioned this sort of narrative. And it's not hurtful. Oh, she kicks us in the teeth a bunch of times, but in a great way. It's really actually, it's a love story. It really is. And it's wonderful, and it's got a huge heart, but it's got teeth. She's definitely got this dark ribbon through her. She played my daughter on The Shield. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's definitely got this dark ribbon through her. She played my daughter on The Shield.

Oh, yeah. She played Cassidy. So she's got some, she's her father's daughter, that's for sure. But I love that she's a writer and she's creating content. And in the meantime, I got to be her graduation speaker.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. At USC? At USC. Oh, wow. Which was insane to give my daughter her diploma. Isn't something that happens, man. It's crazy.

It's insane. Yeah. So I've been really fortunate on a lot of levels. I keep stepping in shit. You know what I mean? And I guess also I'm always forward. I'm always moving ahead. really fortunate in a lot of levels you know i keep stepping in shit you know what i mean and i i guess also i'm always forward i'm always moving ahead i i don't like to sit back and and and look at past successes or even past failures only to the degree of like to look at it learn or glean

whatever i can from it and then move the fuck on. Well, yeah. Well, you went from, you know, the commish to the shield, which was like this strange, like complete transformation that, you know, but that must have had like, you know, the commission, you did well. And I'm sure after that run was done, you felt proud and you banked some money and you got your health insurance and the family's happy and everybody's good. And, you know, it was probably sad for it to go away, but, you know, it was done. Well, there's always these dips, especially when you do a long-running television series.

Yeah. That's where anybody who's an actor has to listen up right now. Because if you have a long-running series as an actor on a television show, it's different than anything else. You've left this, especially if it's successful, you've left an indelible image,

an imprint on the public. Right. And it's going to take a little while for another generation to come up and also for those people to sort of be able to accept you in another context. Right.

You know? Yeah. So there's inevitably this sort of downtime. So if you're into music, that's a perfect time for you to record a record. Yeah.

Or if you're into theater, go and do a show on on broadway as i did right after the that was your one man show yeah what was that about uh men and women it was called uh defending the caveman rob becker did it oh you did becker show show yeah no shit at the booth do you know rob i don't know rob but i know the show and i know he started as a comic and i you know i there was a when did you get into comedy uh well i after college and i you know i was there for five years at bu i left in like 86 and i came out to la for a bit and then i kind of hit the wall on drugs and went back to boston and started wait a minute hold on a second i'm i'm having a flash i think it was dennis larry who i talked

to about yeah that's possible you know dennis yeah he was part of uh his company jim serpico at apostle produced my tv series for four seasons okay okay so was that relatively recent relatively recent yeah that's probably it sure because like when i when i got back to boston 1988 i came in second in the in the riot and that's when i started working as a comic oh cool yeah cool so that's but i've been a lot of different places i was in second in the in the riot and that's when i started working as a comic oh cool yeah cool so that's but i've been in a lot of different places i was in san francisco new york and back here in la now comedians man well yeah well yeah that was around they're all you're always on but getting back to a becker when i was in san francisco you know he was this guy who who did stand up and then he was one of the first to kind of franchise that show like you know he did that

show for years. Years. And then it just became this thing. Made a fortune off it. Yeah, and then it became this thing that other people could do. Right. And you were one of those people. Yeah. Well, you know, he had established it on Broadway at, you know, the Helen Hayes, which was a smaller theater.

Yeah. And then I took it to the booth, which was, you know, it just blew it out. It was a larger theater. It was like 1,100 seats. And, you know, and I did a six-month run. Yeah. And then I took it to the booth, which was, you know, it just blew it out. It was a larger theater. It was like 1100 seats. And, you know, and I did a six month run. Yeah. And then he while I was doing that, he went to, I think, Chicago and mounted it there. Yeah.

So, like you say, he franchised it and he had mounted a production in Vegas or something like that. Anyway, he did really well. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and then so that's what you're doing to buy your time. And then how does the commish happen? did a production in vegas or something like that anyway he did really well yeah yeah you know and then so so that's what you're doing to buy your time and then how does the commish happen i mean how does yeah well because you know you got to look at what's coming at you you know here i had just done a you know a comedy and i was well known for playing you know this affable sort of roly

poly guy on the commish and i wanted to break that shit you know i you know what happened was in 2000 i ended up doing two gigs i played curly in the three stooges movie a tv movie yeah it was a tv movie with uh uh evan handler and paul ben victor yeah and and uh you know mel gibson produced it was really proud movie, actually. Did you do a lot of research? Yeah. I read all about those guys, saw a ton of video, a ton of old films. Can you do the laugh? Sure.

You know, your mother and my mother are both mothers. It's been a while since I've i've it's good it's taking him up yeah yeah i love curly yeah you know and that was daunting because you know whenever you play you know a real guy a guy you know you gotta sink in and i i loved it i'm very proud of that movie people should look at you know look it up it's a great movie um and then the other thing i did was this ill-fated uh year a comedy, a half-hour sitcom called Daddy-O. Uh-huh. And, you know, it was a benign, you know, sweet, good, big-hearted show.

Uh-huh. But again, it was more of the same. Yeah. And I was like, oh, man. When it ended, I bitterly said to my wife, gotta do a show called fucking blow me yeah you know what i mean because you know i just wanted to do something you know real and satisfying you know as an actor when you're just doing that and you got to take the gig if it's offered to you you know i'm raising children at this point now i got two kids yeah and then when you do

mortgage payments when you do you have no control yeah over the content and if it's silly you just suck it up and yeah do the best you can exactly and people you know and you know this yeah the public seems to think that we all have our just druthers you know we could just do whatever the fuck we want yeah yeah so i you know i made this choice because i had all of the choices i mean you know i say to people do you have you looked at me i don't i'm not brad pitt yeah i never was brad pitt right i mean you know what i mean there's like 10 guys maybe right over the course of the 30 years of my career that were in that position where the scripts were coming at them right you know yeah in the feature side especially sure um and then the rest of us in the the next

ring are duking it out and fighting for every inch yeah uh for everything and trying to get that role that can break through a showcase your work yeah and the only reason that the shield happened is because it was at fx and it was off everyone's radar in fact i was a television star at that time and you know uh i know i used quotes and it's annoying yeah i used air quotes and you guys can't see that then i'm glad yeah anyway anyway my the people in my camp at the time were like you can't see that then i'm glad yeah anyway anyway my the people in my camp at the time were like you can't do this you're a television star it's fx and you're out of shape yeah well no actually at the time i was ripped you got ripped that's why you did that in your downtime i did that in my downtime worked it out got insane shape and i was looking for that kind of a role really and

when i read it i was like are you guys crazy have you read this it's the best pilot i've ever read so i went for the material the material and material and hoped that you know that i'd have a great tape from it yeah that would break the mold yeah that's was my the height of my you know Like, please let me get some good tape out of this shit. Sure. So people won't think of me just as the commish. Right. Or daddy-o.

Yeah, yeah. You know? The four people that watch daddy-o. And it was incendiary, although I thought it had tremendous potential. I was like, God, if people see this, they're going to dig this. Because this is, you know, i loved what it was going for more morally dubious alpha cop yeah well it's just about look it's very resonant right now the the thematic question of the shield was what are we willing to accept from law enforcement

post 9-11 america to keep us safe yeah that's what's happening right now right and you know it's you see the the ambivalence and the gray areas of you know how tough it is to be a cop yeah and how hard it is to do your job yeah and how contentious it is with the public and how some bad apples ruin it for the rest of the blue you know it's so it's relevant yeah still yeah um so i thought man this could break through but it's on fucking fx you know what i mean and we were the first yeah so when i won the emmy it was this it was an earthquake it was a tectonic shift shift the networks all the networks went which cable network do we own? Because they all own them.

Yeah. People don't realize that they all own, it's right pocket, left pocket. Right. So they did something brilliant business-wise. Fox went into competition with itself at FX because Fox owns FX. Yeah. Right? Yeah, but they were like, well, why not?

Yeah. And FX now, look at FX. Yeah. look at the quality amazing stuff that they do one show after another i have to say peter ligori and kevin riley the first two presidents of fx yeah their first three forays into original scripted material was the shield nip tuck and rescue me yeah you know just a a one two three punch yeah three massive hits and look at the careers that have launched out of just those three shows sure like yeah they took chances actors yeah they did and it was raw and it had you know real edge the mandate at the time it's

really you know it's kind of harkens back to the early days of Sundance when you have no money, no time, but the willingness to let artists do their thing. Yeah, Louis. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. God, I've not met him. Oh, really? He's just so insane.

Like my favorite, he kills me. Oh. Louis C.K. He's a little elusive, but I think if you hang around new york you could meet him just watched oh my god again the other day and kills me so yeah so that defines you yeah that was the role you know well that was that was you know that was a huge breakthrough for me and what it's done is made people realize that you know i have a considerable amount of range yeah you know yes i can play the roly-poly affable guy but i can also play a motherfucker too yeah and everything in between

you can play a superhero yeah suck it you got the full package uh the full emotional you know that's that's that's all i always admired people in the in the industry that were versatile sure character actors yeah people who could you know put on a bunch of different hats and really sell it you know gene hackman i love best he's the best he's the best i think he retired he did he did but one of the greatest things in the world was to hear that he was a fan of the shield oh yeah through dj caruso he told you yeah dj worked with me on the shield yeah and eagle eye and he made a movie with him and he was like oh you work on that show the shield that's no i love that show that that's the real shit i'm

like oh god it's beautiful i could die now hackman was so good yeah you know and what so you like i'm just looking at stuff and i i don't watch a lot of stuff but it looks like you know you just do the work you know you do animated shit you do you know i love working man i do um what is no ordinary family how'd that go that was uh a superhero show that i did for one season that a real shame because it had a huge following people loved it and it was just a behemoth and we shot it in LA and it cost so much money and I don't know you know you never know the real right for something going down because it's interesting you know I looked at the numbers of that show and they were strong and i still obviously something was wrong with the math

yeah you know you never know who's pissed off at who too in terms of producers yeah you know i mean there's talk about you know that's greg belanti produced the show and he was moving over to warner brothers at the time and you know and and abc was like done with him so abc disney so that you never know what the the as an actor yeah you know unless you're right in there with everybody even then you don't know sure yeah yeah you're not in the room and you don't find out till the day with the network you not you're not there when the network guys go in there and shut the door and make their decisions you know they're going to tell you what they're going to tell you but you you don't really know what the body and it usually has to do with the bottom line but it can also have to do with relationships or broken relationships sure bottom line is it didn't go

forward it was a fun show yeah the great cast julie benz romney malco we had a blast yeah and it was well you know people man it's so funny people look at television and you know, people, man, it's so funny. People look at television and, you know, they feel, I think that they think that actors have so much more control than they do. Why didn't that guy stop them from taking off? You know how many people walk up to me and go, you know, why don't you just have them do another season of Vegas? And I'm like, because they canceled it. Tell them, you know, you can do that. Go'll tell them, you know, you can do that. Go and tell them that we loved it. Yeah.

There is a sort of blind side to how the business works. Yeah, you're like, no, that's not what happens. And are they still making Gothams? Yeah, I just finished. Literally, I just two days ago finished and came back from New York. I've been in New York for the last two years, living on 56th and 6th, like 100 yards from Trump Tower. It's been crazy, huh?

Oh, my God, what a cluster. It's just been really incredible to watch that evolve over the last two years into what it is now, which is a colossal clusterfuck. Well, I mean, it's costing tens of millions of dollars to just isolate that building. Right. Because it's in the center of Manhattan.

Yeah. You know, and I'm just happy to be out of there right now. Yeah. It's just madness. But it's been wonderful. You know, I'm really glad to be getting back into shape. Like last year, I got so fat because i went to new york and and i was doing gotham and living in new york and i was going to every theater production

and i go into restaurants so they were like mr jig was right this way and here's another appetizer that you didn't order yeah yeah you know and i was just for me thank you know i just sure you got you don't want to insult i didn't want to insult the guy so this year i made it, you know, I just lived it. Sure, you don't want to insult the guy. I didn't want to insult the guy. So this year I made it about, you know what, let's get back to, you know, my brand and get back into shape. So, you know, I've really been going hardcore for about six months again. And I'm starting to get back to me. Get tight. Ready to go, yeah.

So now with the music, with the influence record. Yeah. What, do you play out? What do you? We just did. We played, in November, we played our first live show, 12-piece band. You know, I got the guys from Conan O'Brien's band on this, too. Which ones?

Scott Healy, who's the head of the band, the keyboard player. Uh-huh. And La Bamba, the guys in the brass section. It was an incredible experience. You know, I built a studio in my house, a recording, like you did with this. I built a cool recording studio in my house, world-class. Oh, that's great.

Yeah, and I just had session players come to my house. I'd show them the tune. We'd shed it. We'll throw it on. Well, good, man. Yeah, awesome. I'm glad you're enjoying yourself. That's, yeah.

And I'm glad it worked out over and over again. Yeah, that's right. And that's me. I'll just keep swinging. out over and over again. Yeah, that's right. And that's me. I'll just keep swinging. All right. Thanks for talking, Mike. Pleasure. Pretty cool, right?

That was a good talk. He's like a solid dude, man. A solid dude. Does my words sound fat? Where's the guitar? I have to... I gotta give my new guitar a rest because it's, uh...

In order to get the sound I want, it destroys my left eardrum, which has problems. Yeah, my ears are going. My cat's gone. My voice has gotten fatter. The world's gonna be just a flaming rock spinning through space.

Well, let's not be negative. Let's be thoughtful and engaged. Let's use a phase shifter. That ought to do it. Phase shifter and a telecaster. What problems can't be solved with that Thank you. Boomer lives! Buster, come home, goddammit. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

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