WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 806 - Mark Lanegan / Mac DeMarco

Episode Date: April 26, 2017

Mark Lanegan is the soft-spoken elder statesman of the '90s Seattle grunge scene. Marc Maron talks with the former frontman of Screaming Trees and finds out how Mark went on to collaborate with a wide variety of artists, from Guns N' Roses to Belle and Sebastian. But first, singer-songwriter Mac DeMarco brings his laid-back Canadian rock vibe to the garage as he releases his third studio album and helps answer a puzzling question: Why does Marc like his music so much? Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is WTF, my podcast. I don't know, it probably sounds a little different, right? It sounds different to me and it feels different as well. You know why? Because I'm recording not at my house. I'm not at my garage. Do you want to know why?

Because the electricity is out here in Los Angeles. Do you want to know why? I guess because it got windy. Yeah, that must be it. It got windy out and my entire neighborhood has no electricity. And I'm actually recording this a couple of days early because I'm going out on the last leg of my tour, heading into my special, which will be recording in Minneapolis on Saturday night, day after tomorrow, if you're listening to this on Thursday. Oh, and by the way, on Thursday, I'm in Milwaukee and on Friday,

I'm in Madison, Wisconsin. And on Saturday, Minneapolis. And there might be some tickets left for that second show of my taping at the Pantages in Minneapolis. There's actually, between me and you, there's actually tickets left for Milwaukee and Madison as well. I don't know why. I've been doing really well with the sales. Selling out almost everywhere. I don't know why. I've been doing really well with the sales,

selling out almost everywhere, but something about Wisconsin, just no go on that. I'm just telling you, all right? I'm just telling you, this is not a Hail Mary pass. This is not desperation. If you are in Minneapolis on Saturday or Madison, Wisconsin on Friday

or Milwaukee, Wisconsin on Thursday. Come see me perform if you'd like to do that. It's a reasonably priced ticket. I don't know what it is, but I know it's not a pricey ticket. And again, go to the source, go to the venue's website. Don't just Google Mark Maron tickets, Milwaukee, because then a scalper site will come up and you'll say, holy shit, $12,000 for center row orchestra. That seems, that seems steep. Who does Mark fucking think he is?

No, that's not the way. Oh, do you hear that? I just heard the chair roll all kinds of new sounds because I'm in a different location. I'll tell you where I'm at in just a second, but first I'll tell you who's on the show. I have two musical guests. Neither one of them will be playing music, but we will be talking about music. Here's the deal. Mark Lanigan, who you know from the Screaming Trees and from his solo work, arguably one of the greatest rock singers of the last two decades. I've always loved Mark Lanigan. I've not listened to everything he's ever done, but great, great voice. So when I got the opportunity to interview

Mark Lanigan, I was like, hells yeah. So I talked to Mark Lanigan. Then last week, I get an opportunity to talk to Mac DeMarco. Now, Mac DeMarco, I'm new to. I don't know where I got his records, but I got a few of the records and I was like this is weird this is kind of soft and interesting and kind of unique there's some songwriting chops here and there's some guitar chops and it's got a weird production values but my first thought is like I don't usually like music like this but I'm sort of interested in this guy I was interested in him as a person and where that music comes from and then all of a sudden i get an opportunity to interview mac demarco so he came over so we're splitting up this episode between mac demarco and mark lanigan pretty interesting huh how's it

sounding in here because this is not this is not a um this is not a sound garage i'm in a painter's garage. I'm in Sarah Kane abstract painter girlfriend garage surrounded by paint. Just paint everywhere. Right to my right, there's a thing, a palette of, I don't know what you call it, several different palettes with all kinds of colors on it. And underneath it, there's just a slab of plastic with paint and goop on it. There's goop everywhere, paints. There's paintings on the wall in different phases of completion. But this is where real work gets done. More than just talking.

There's an entire, one of those cabinets that you, things on paper go into. And on top of it, there's like a thousand brushes in painty cups and canisters. There's honey, which I do not think is used for the paintings. I think that's probably a tea item. There's an airbrush thing. Holy shit.

I don't think I've ever looked around her studio before, and I'm a little intimidated because I don't know the difference between these brushes. There's at least 8,000 different kinds of brushes. I've obviously decided that large numbers are hilarious, and I'm just going to keep saying large numbers over and over again. Oh, look, here's a box of a million beaded things that go, sometimes she sews into canvases.

And this is like, oh, here a a container of uh what is that flow trawl let's let's give a shout out to flow trawl that is a latex paint additive eliminates brush and roller marks flow tall for all you painters it's also in spanish for all you painters it's also in spanish aditivo para pinturas aletics i don't think i said any of that right so that i don't know what that does and then this is what it is what's in here genuine staples i know what staples do i know how to use stapler yep i'm on top of something here but there's a lot of works in progress here. It's all very exciting. She's sitting on the couch. You know, painters don't live like regular people.

They have these spaces. This used to be a garage, kind of. And now there's like one, two, three, four, like five huge canvases on the wall. And then there's a thing that she hangs from for yoga, which I think if it were, if I didn't know better, I'd be like, that's an interesting piece. I like how you integrated the yoga blanket into the rope things and hung it like that. And then you'd say, no that's actually that's for that kind of yoga and i'm like what do you got to ruin it for why can't i just accept it the art for what

it is but there's a lot of things going on in here and oh here's a pencil sharpener pencil sharpener i kind of want to sharpen a pencil just for the sound yeah i don't know where the pencils are there's a lot of paint and stuff oh here's one do you remember the sound of a pencil sharpener how long is the last time it happened hold on wait a minute oh that's fun it's really sharp and now you now you know what's going to happen is one more punch in i'll knock the lead out and then i'll have to start all over, which is really the fun part of sharpening pencils is when you just can't

stop sticking the pencil in and you fuck it up every time. And then your teacher goes, stop, stop it. I'm going to bring the hand one back. Are you old enough to remember the hand cranky pencil sharpeners with the several different hole options on the side. Someone asked me the other day, they're like, did she ever let you paint? And not only has she not let me paint, but I never asked her to paint, never thought about painting. Why not just say, hey, Mark, how would you like to feel like an idiot in front of your girlfriend, the painter, and ask her if maybe you could have some brushes and a little palette of four colors just have fool around just have some fun just have some fun in the painter's studio like a seven-year-old and be encouraged like that that's very creative that's very

now what happens when you mix those two colors together look at it's a whole new color oh good job mark can i paint on a canvas no just use another piece of paper canvases are expensive and take time she's doing a lot of shit over here i don't know fucking anything about it just come over here and see these things in different uh phases of completion i don't i don't see what's going on in here, but it's very professional. This one over here is like 20 feet tall or maybe 30. Is it still funny, the numbers, the exaggerated numbers? Is that wearing thin? So, Mac DeMarco.

I got to be honest with you, the agenda of this, and I've listened to his records, and I was sort of intrigued, but it seemed to me that the undercurrent of what I was trying to do was trying to get him to explain to me why I like his music so much. Weird, right? I was just trying to track his sources. I was just trying to see where he came from. I was just trying to get a handle on the guy.

His new album, This Old Dog, comes out on May 5th. So this is me and Mac DeMarco back in my non-painting garage. It's weird. I don't know you, obviously. Yeah, totally. But I got that album a few years ago, too. And I don't even know where it came from like i get most people yeah we're kind of like what the hell i get sent records you know and you know the cover was sort

of like this guy looks a little dopey something like what's he up to with that guitar and the hat like you look like a kind of a normal dude yeah i'd like to think so right and i i did not know what to expect from the record and then i put it on i'm like well this is uh there's something going on here i don't understand what it is but i'm in i'm glad yeah yeah but uh i i don't it's you're very hard to uh to i can't wrap my brain around it because it seems like it seems pretty laid back but there must be some fury in there somewhere for me somewhere yeah a lot of confusion for me to you know to resonate with it i i don't know how to place you but i guess that's sort of the the issue that's good and kind of odd about

about your trip right yeah i mean how old are you 26 now going on 27 this month so you're young you're a young fella. I hope so, yeah. Where'd you come from? Where'd you grow up? I grew up in Western Canada, Edmonton, Alberta, home of the Edmonton Oilers, if you're doing okay right now. I don't know that much about hockey, but that's kind of where I'm from.

Really not a hockey guy? Not really, but that's the only point of reference a lot of people have for where I'm from. Yeah, I'm not a hockey guy either, but I performed in Edmonton. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Isn't that where the mall is? Big mall, yeah. i think it was the largest from 91 to 93 right like the uh the sister mall to the mall of america that's right and they have uh yeah i there's a comedy club in there and i yeah yeah reds maybe i i forget what it was called i don't know what it was called

but i stayed at a hotel connected to the mall. Fantasy Land, probably. Yeah. And I just remember I was on a horse floor and there were doors where, you know, painted horses in their stables. Yeah. It's a weird place. Very.

They have like a life-size Santa Maria, like boat copy. They have dolphins when I was a kid. Like real dolphins. Yeah. They had like a submarine tour, like skating rinks. It was. Was it the center of life? It was, I mean, that's what they wanted it to be.

And I think for a couple years, you know, when I was really young or even before, it was like, oh my God. But then by the time I was, you know, like... 24? Yeah, you know, I was like a teenager going. It was just like relic of the 80s with like greasy brass handrails and like everything was kind of dirty and their wings that were just shut down. Did you go there? Interesting. Yeah, did you go there in a punk rock way as the older kid just to hang around and cause trouble?

No, I did that close to my, it was too far. It was kind of like the, I don't know. I don't know what we'd go over there for. Yeah. It's strange. I knew kids when I was younger that used to live, they had these tunnels underneath the mall that they were going to extend the train

because the train system in Edmonton's not so good they're going to extend the train never ended up doing it so these tunnels were empty and they'd keep some but this is all you know yeah hearsay but i like to believe it sure they kept some of the animals that weren't on display under the mall and then all these like you know runaway raver kids would live with these like penguins you know in these like that's a pretty good myth yeah i like it yeah cool they're raving the the penguin raves they were calling oh yeah no one ever went to one but everybody heard about oh yeah down below subterranean penguin below the mall uh-huh yeah so you you uh you were raised in edmonton and uh when did you start playing the guitar uh probably was 13 or 14,

something like that. I got a musical family. Really? Like how? Grandmother is an opera singer. She used to teach at the conservatory. Like a real opera singer? Yeah. Sings in the big opera? Oh yeah. Yeah. She was a shredder. Really? She still is. She doesn't sing anymore. Oh my God. That's incredible. Did she specialize in a certain language? You know, to tell you the truth, don't know too well. You know, I think she really believed that she was Italian, although it was her husband that was. So I think she was probably saying. Is that where you get the name?

Yeah, exactly. Okay. Where was she from? She's, I think she's just Western Canadian as well. I mean, you know, when you look back in any Canadian heritage, it's usually English or French or whatever. So I think that. Yeah. She really, you know. I didn't back in any Canadian heritage, it's usually English or French or whatever. So I think that. Yeah.

She really, you know. I didn't realize until I was older that it was like, because I never met my grandfather. Right. But he was the Italian. Right. But she kept on making the lasagna, the spaghetti. Oh, really? It was a sham.

Yeah. It was a sham. She used to say she was speaking Italian. Then when I took French immersion, I was like, that's French, Grandma. But everyone's got to have their dreams. I know. I know. You know, you got to, you know, that's kind, Grandma. But everyone's got to have their dreams. I know, I know. That's kind of sweet, though. But she would sing in the, is there a big opera house up there?

Yeah, I think, what is there? What is the something that? You never saw her do it? I saw her do it on a smaller scale when I was a little older. I saw her in some operas and stuff when I was pretty young, too. Like a soprano? Or like, how does that work? Do you understand it?

No, I don't understand it at all. See, that was the thing I retracted from as a kid. I was like, I don't want to go on singing lessons. I don't want to go on piano lessons. Let me play my video games and leave me alone. Yeah. Then eventually, all the kids on the playground are like, yeah, I learned to play this ACDC riff. I'm like, oh, OK, sick.

They're like, oh, you want music lessons now? Great. You know, let's do it. So that's when he started with guitar? Yeah, and then, you know. ACDC riff. Oh, yeah, hell yeah. He's the fucking best.

Yeah, yeah. Angus Young is the best. Yeah, Angus is cool. I keep going back to it. I mean, I'm 53. He's got a great tone. You know, he's got a great vibe. Great showman.

The whole band, you know. But those licks, they're just like, for a metal just like it's for a metal dude it's just blues riffs i know i know and that's vibrato oh it's it's sweet yeah that sg man just cutting yeah i listen to it probably every week what are you gonna do nothing you can do about it what's your relationship with eric andre uh went to his birthday party the other night, actually. Were you guys your buddies?

Sort of, yeah. I met him a handful of times. It's not like, you know. Oh, you don't go way back? No. I mean, we did a show. That was probably two years, three years ago or something. No.

Did that. Was a fan already. You know, big thing for us. Like, oh, this is crazy. Had a nice time with him then. He did a little thing with us at Coachella last time we played. Oh, right. I was just told, someone who saw it, that he played a theremin with a dildo.

Yeah, big, nice, long dildo. Yeah. How did it sound? Good? I think maybe. Yeah, I'm not sure. But, yeah. Did you ever play with him, though?

He's a bass player, I believe. He is? Yeah. I didn't know that. Like, if I'm not mistaken, because I've talked to him, I think he's like Berkeley-educated bass player. Like, he's like high level. I see.

I had no clue. He bailed on it because he couldn't be as good as Yaku. Something like that. Yeah, there you go. Well, that's cool. Yeah, now you know that. Now you're going to have to kind of corner him to play. Yeah. Yeah, because it sounds like your bass guy kind of bounces around a lot.

Yeah, well, you know, now i've got a real hot player kid that i grew up with from my hometown john yeah he's one of those yeah oh yeah oh really oh he's great he's great i got some some heavy hitters playing with me right now but i've had a bunch of bass players in the past so so you're there you're taking guitar lessons you're're learning ACDC riffs. You're playing in rock bands? I played in a bunch of bands as a teenager. Mostly jokey stuff. Maybe a couple bands were... Jokey stuff.

When you're a kid and you're writing songs, especially where I'm from, where it's a hockey town, it's very homophobic and a lot of testosterone, big muscles and tight-ed, hardy shirts. You're scared. You're up against it. Even if you're not gay, even if you're just fragile. Exactly. A sensitive kid going the other way.

So I was scared and, you know, wrote some, you know, stuff like, you know, just having a laugh. And then eventually by the time I was 17 or 18 started making my own little records in the bedroom. Were you playing up against those dudes? Were you playing gigs where those, the other hockey dudes would come? Did you have to was it sort of a nirvana thing where you're like crafting songs that they didn't know were were calling them stupid it was i mean i don't even

think they were really i mean it was that was kind of the school that i went to and it was it was uh yeah it's kind of like a blanket mentality over because because we have like a lot of oil, so there's a lot of like dummies that like to work for the oil, don't really, you know, think about what the- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's weird. It's like Texas up there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But like cold Texas, so like even crazier. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean to call them stupid. It's just a different way of life. You know, you can call them that. I don't mind. Different priorities.

Yeah, yeah, straight up. You know what I mean? Oh, destroying the planet? Whatever. whatever we're gonna get a new hockey arena downtown next year it's great yeah i mean morons exactly it'll be good if we all die at the same time then no one misses anything yeah so you start playing bands and you start recording now what like what's your old man do where is he musical too? He is, I think, in some respect. Plays guitar, kind of. He's a bit of a, you know, like a...

I didn't grow up with him, so I don't really know him very well. So he's out of the pick. But, you know, when he would come around, he'd be like, hey, boy, I got your new harmonica. Let's jam on the acoustic. I'd be like, okay, you know.

But from a definitely more of like past the whiskey bottle around the fireplace, play some Neil Young songs, as opposed to like, you know, my grandma, you know, this conservatory stuff. My grandfather was a great sax player as well. So, you know, it's the... Which grandfather?

Your dad's dad? No, my mom's dad. Yeah, DeMarco. He had a funny story about him, actually. I never met him, like I was saying. But he had half his arm amputated because he got cancer. It was a while, you know, 30 years ago.

So they were like, okay, let's get rid of that. So he lost half his arm. Saxated because he got cancer uh-huh it was a while you know 30 years ago so yeah like okay let's get rid of that so he lost half his arm yeah but you need you need your arms yeah kind of yeah so what uh the university alberta ended up doing was uh they built this socket that goes up on his arm on his nub yeah connected to this you know all these solenoids on this this box and then the box is connected to some switches on the keys that he was missing with that left arm. So he was banging his nub around this box, and he was still, you know, they brought the shred back. It's like kind of beautiful.

There's a crazy video on YouTube of him. There is a video of him on YouTube? Oh, yeah, it's great, yeah. What's his name? Hank DeMarco. And that must look wild. It's insane, yeah. He's stoked in it, too.

I've never met the guy, but you just see him and he's like, I'm playing again. Oh, my God, this is so sick. Did he die before you were conscious? He died before I was born, yeah, a couple years. But they have the video. Did he do it on television? Yeah, he did, I think it was for some kind of science show or something. Right.

Amazing discoveries, you know. When did your dad split? Probably around I was five or something like that. And he went to another city? No, he was around. It was kind of like he was the holiday parent, you know. It's like, see you, see you then, see you then. And his, you know, I was sort of involved with his family in some way, you know, like

the grandparents were kind of like, yeah, we're going to, sorry, here we go. That's my mom, Agnes. Yeah, yeah. Go do your bit. Here, we'll, you know, we'll going to. Sorry, Agnes. Here we go. That's my mom, Agnes. Yeah, yeah. Go do your bit. Here, we'll pick the kids up and buy them something. Yeah. But they were very sweet people. You got brothers and sisters?

I have one little brother, and then I have a half-sister who was around for a while when I was a kid. She ended up moving to, she's lived a couple different places. She lives in the mountains in BC now, though. Oh, really? That's your dad's kid? Yeah, yeah. She's chill in the mountains in BC now. Oh, really? That's your dad's kid? Yeah, yeah. She's chill. I'm close with her.

Oh, really? Did that all evolve over time, or were you always close? It was always, I think she was kind of like, because she was a little bit older to deal with some of the madness, because he bounced on her too,

so it was kind of like, okay, kids, not this time. She's very sweet. The reason I guess I'm talking about your dad is because on this the one song on the record the new record which is called this old dog that first song is is some sort of strange recognition of you know it seems to be about your dad oh totally yeah i think i mean i think a lot of people have come at it kind of like in a way where because there is that trope of like um you look you know it's happening um i'll look what i'm become i'm becoming yeah and it can be taken in a more you know uh light-hearted

way or something like that but for me you know and that's the part that the beauty of the pop song part where not everybody knows my history maybe some of my friends and people but it's like but for me it's like you know i'm talking more about my history. Maybe some of my friends and people, but it's like, but for me, it's like, you know, I'm talking more about like, you know,

most of my like, Bad shit. The bad, yeah, the badder shit. Right. I don't want to see that. Right.

Come on. But if people can take it in a soft way too, that's great. But I think that was one of the reasons that the music sort of appealed to me is that there was

something more to it. Even the, the becoming your dad thing because I have the same issue yeah it's very hard to separate like okay i liked it there's got to be some good things about this dude and like you obviously have embraced those the musical taste the fact that you know he was this kind of free-spirited you know though irresponsible dude but there are good things about them and you're like i can embrace that but what do i do with this other shit yeah it's like it's you know just understand it's a confusing thing

you know so it is i don't you know and then you gotta and then it becomes like is it inevitable exactly you know who knows perhaps maybe well i'm i'm twice as old as you almost um it's not it's not inevitable okay because like like what i find is that if the old man is either emotionally absent or physically absent, there's this need to sort of overcompensate and look for some sort of guidance in your brain. Yeah. But it feels to me that underneath those things, like becoming your dad on either side, there's still an authentic you in there. Yeah, totally. Right? Yeah. those things like becoming your dad on either side there's still an authentic you in there yeah totally right yeah so that that's the thing that he fucked you know like they somehow or

another neglected so we neglect it and then like you know to let that thing out you know in the in the mire of that other shit of the old man shit yeah tricky man yeah it's tricky well no it sounds like yeah you know you got a couple more albums there i mean as well as being about my my pops that it is just kind of i think a lot of this record is because i tour a lot you know even though i'm pretty young we've been on tour for like five years straight or something yeah you don't get a lot of time to sit down yeah and even to even to think about your own life regardless of where you're at right so you know luckily i have these periods where i can think about it and then uh put it on display for the entire world which is fine i'm fine with it but it's interesting from yeah it's a weird path to take i suppose but yeah you live a lot you have

to live a lot in your head yeah yeah in terms of creatively yeah because like what are you going to write about the bus yeah i don't yeah i don't think so about the other dudes denver last weekend there you go i don't know about that time for country i don't know well where did you start to um because it seems like just even from the first record you gravitated towards were you thinking in terms of of making hits because it dawned on me and i don't know if this is bad or good but it just dawned on me this morning you know because i was listening and trying to get caught up. There's not a lot of information about you because you're a child.

No, you're young. But because I see John Mayer out and about, trying to establish himself as a monster guitar player after he did those three or four. Body is a wonder. Yeah, right? It's a hit. What can you do but but that's what i'm saying right but like he's got a he's got a claw back from that yeah yeah in a way you

know it's sort of like i don't know if we're all gonna accept you as a stevie ray vaughn i was confused i never you know when i was a real guitar player kid i saw him on what is that like g3 or whatever like the eric clapton festival yeah right, right. Or like Crossroads or something. I was like, John Mayer? I had no idea. He can shred, you know, but it is confusing. You know, it's like, what? It's confusing, but there's also that issue of like make bank, which is not easy to do.

You've got to be pretty talented to make a hit song. Yeah. And then like, you know, after you don't have to worry about money ever again, you're going to be like, now I'm going to go play with the guys. Yeah, yeah. And do the real shit. Yeah. And some of us guys are sort of like, I don't have to worry about money ever again, you're going to be like, now I'm going to go play with the guys and do the real shit. Yeah. And some of us guys are sort of like, nah, I don't know.

I think that's what it boils, you know. It's the realness thing, you know, where it's, say, for example, with John Mayer. Yeah. You know, I don't really know that much about his music. I know he can shred on the blues guitar. I know he's written these songs, but, you know. Maybe he felt real doing it.

Maybe he didn't. I don't, you know's written these songs but you know i mean maybe he felt real doing it maybe he didn't i don't you know it was too you know far out of the scope for me to ever really pay attention to anyway but but i think it is a funny thing especially where i'm at with this record where it's number three and it's kind of like it's not like there's real pressures or anything but it's like you know a lot of bands number three it's like bigger bigger sound yeah top top 40 appeal like let's do this you know yeah regardless of you know if i went some kind of you know guitarry you know way like that john mayer style or like went some like synthesizer sexy you know and instead of you know uh i and there were moments writing it too where i caught myself and it's kind of like do i you know trying

like okay i could you know write this big you know and it's just like this is silly you know it's silly i feel it right i feel ridiculous yeah and you know i i feel like a jackass trying to do this and you know and then i decided okay i'm just gonna write some songs that can be what they got to be you know if there's not any up-tempo ones i don't really give a shit whatever but you know it's a big thing i think about a lot it's like the you know realness real recognize real right keeping true yeah insane well so you had that moment where you're like oh i could i could turn this i could make this a hit song in a way like you felt that i mean i think i i had the the concept and maybe like that you know there is that it's like oh it'd be great yeah yeah yeah but then i don't think i even have the capacity you know i don't think i could make a big effort green or like big sexy huge festival you know

stadiums i couldn't do that for you know i don't think that most people listening aren't gonna even think that either but it's just like i've seen a lot of you know my contemporary people that i see at festivals and stuff trying to jack it up get the bigger for me it's like i appreciate more people you know like jonathan richmond for example oh it's like I appreciate more people, you know, like Jonathan Richman, for example. Oh, man, I love that guy. I love him. You know, he's kind of like my... He's your guy? I love this man.

But it's like... Do you work with him ever? He's played with us. When we did the Greek Theater, he played with us there. And I've seen him play probably like 20 times since I was a kid. But yeah, but what he's done is like, you know, regardless, he's always going to be this like rock god,

legend, roadrunner. He's in the Modern Lovers, you know regardless he's always going to be this like rock god legend wrote you know roadrunner he's in the modern lovers you know a lot of great albums but as time has progressed he's just tried to reel as much back as he can and just keep it because the whole thing with him is it's like the important thing is he's on the stage here's the crowd there's like an immediate connection yeah i'm i'm hip yeah and it's like, you know. That's all of it. Exactly. And it works great.

And not to say that he's not trying anything new, but it's like, you know, he just has these things set up and he knows what he's doing. He knows who he is. And it's just like a fucking beautiful thing. It's really cool. because there is something about gunning for authenticity over, you know, like, it's not showmanship, but it's really the opposite. Because I deal with this in comedy when, you know, there are guys that put on an act and then there are guys who are who they are. Yeah.

And they can't really escape it. There are people that create a persona either consciously or not, and that persona does a show. Yeah. And they can't really escape it. There are people that create a persona either consciously or not. And that persona does a show. Yeah. And then they leave and they may be assholes. They may be quiet. They may, you know, be socially, you know, crippled. Yeah.

You know, but on stage, that's the thing. Yeah. And then they go away. All I've been trying to do is make everything about the same level. Yeah. You know, so when I show up there, not that much different than talking to you. Yeah, exactly. It helps to keep you sane, you know?

Yeah, it keeps you sane and also keeps you honest with yourself. Exactly. If that's what you want. And it's just, yeah, for me especially too, it's like, you know, I mean, it's funny now with the internet and the way people hone in on things and the way that things are presented. Yeah. But on a level where it is like human, human at the show,

going up on stage, obviously there's like some lights and stuff. You're like, all right, let's have a good time. But for the most part, I think it's important just to be like, do you. That's the hardest thing. Yeah, I guess maybe for some people, I suppose. Yeah, but I mean, that can be hard for me too, I guess. But I think just keeping it on the level. Yeah, I know what you mean.

Because like you have those moments, like you said, when you're writing this record, where you can see an avenue to where you could get away with something creatively that isn't really you, but would work. And maybe even stick a little harder than just being you. Could be. And then you've got to live with that. That's what you've got to keep in mind. Right.

Because there's nothing more satisfying than doing a show and either something happens that you didn't anticipate that was uniquely organic to that evening that you know will never happen again. That's the best thing that can happen to me is like a moment on stage and I'm like, I did an hour and a half, but when I said that one thing, that was the whole show. Yeah. Do you ever have that shit? Yeah, a lot.

I mean, our shows are very, it's, we don't, we barely even practice as a band, so it's kind of like, that's the whole show, essentially, you know, and we play a lot of the same songs and stuff, but it is, like I was saying with Jonathan, like, I like to involve the kids, I like to keep the venues as small as we can, and I like to, you know. How do you involve them? Just, you know, just, hey, let's have a t-shirt. What's up, man? You want to come up here?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Just whatever, you know. When was the first time you saw Richmond? Because I was sort of mildly obsessed with him for a while, you know, because what you're saying, I think, about his sort of consistency of self, some people think is sort of like, I don't know what happened to that guy. Like, he never did this, or he never did that, or he doesn't, you know what I mean?

He stayed where he was, but, you know. I don't know, though. I mean, he's, because his career spans, I mean, I understand, but you and me probably would say the alternate, right? No, exactly. Because, like, he won't do this show, from what I understand.

I've wanted to talk to him. Yeah, I don't think he does. He keeps things pretty simple and pretty close. Yeah, well, similar to not wanting, I don't think he does that much media or press stuff. He doesn't really like to fly. He won't have air conditioners in the venue, no monitors on the stage. He mixes him and tommy from the stage uh-huh you know i had these people the people that deal with us in brazil also take care of jonathan in brazil yeah yeah and there's this guy bruno that is a good friend

of ours and a friend of jonathan's but regardless of how far the venue is away from the hotel jonathan needs to walk there right i have his guitar his little book he's writing stuff down but you know if it's like 20 miles away, it's like, okay, let's just come pick me up at the hotel at five in the morning. Right. We'll get there for sound check.

But it's just, you know, he takes the bus a lot and drives in like a little sedan to a lot of the shows. It's just like, you know, he's doing him. He's happy. Right.

He's a little eccentric, but true to himself. Oh, yeah. That's the deal. Yeah. Also, you know, you start spending money on baloney, especially when you're touring a lot, you're not going to make any money. Right. So he's the deal. Yeah. Also, you know, you start spending money on baloney, especially when you're touring a lot.

You're not going to make any money. Right. So he's got that down, too. So what were your influences, though? Because your guitar playing is pretty astounding. What was it that turned, like, who was your guys, like, outside of Angus, where you kind of got this kind of lyrical, sweet style of guitar playing? Like, what were you listening to that compelled you?

I don't know. Like, the Jerry Garcia guyerry garcia guy i loved well that was more recent well i mean i guess before i started doing like the mac demarco records yeah other cds and stuff that i put out and i was going you know it was more of like a bigger what are those bands names that band was called make out video oh yeah i heard about that yeah which which was just me on one guitar so i had to fill it out and it was kind of more it was like kind of like keith richards yeah like open tuning oh yeah i heard about that yeah which which was just me on one guitar so i had to fill it out and it was kind of more it was like kind of like keith richards yeah like open tuning oh yeah trying to fill it out but if you have it open then you can kind of do some melodic stuff as well as keep the chords going so are those available those cds those are all in band camp if you look it up oh they are okay i gotta check that out and then uh but as soon as i did the mac i think when i did

that two record that you're talking about yeah i'd been listening a lot to, and not records that I had discovered at the time, but just for some reason. I think, you know, as I've gotten older, it's like my ear for especially production stuff. Uh-huh. And, you know, you pick certain things out. But I was listening to, you know, a lot of the band. So like Robbie Robertson's playing or even Neil Young's playing. Yeah.

That kind of stuff. And also just a lot of classic rock radio yeah I was kind of afraid of guitar solos for many years like oh it's too cheesy I don't touch it oh really but then you listen to you know you work I was working in a grocery store and it was on the you know Shome is the classic rock station yeah all night every night it's kind of like yeah this is this this is dope sure man yeah like after that second verse lay it out yeah just shed for a little bit you know so i kind of it was kind of comical for me at first but uh but i had but then yeah around the time i did the last ep before this record uh it's called another one i have that one that's good too got really into jerry's playing

though the uh what the cover of that rock and roll nightclub thing even the lipstick and stuff was there do you do because like it's weird there's like you know there's the cover of of two which is just like you and your your beat up uh cool guitar and then the rock and roll nightclub seems like you're like when i looked at that record versus the one with you that with the fishing like where you're sitting there by a lake or whatever. I don't know what's going to be on the cover of this one. But when I saw that, I'm like, what is this guy up to? Is there a theme here?

Is this a different? Maybe I'm reading too much into it because I didn't know much about you. And then your Twitter feed. Wasn't your Twitter feed pretty raunchy? It's all over the place. Right. So I'm trying to get this was years ago

when I first got the record I'm like let me get a sense of this guy because the music's so sweet and I go on your Twitter feed and I'm like this guy's a fucking animal. What's happening?

I can't pull him together in my head. You gotta confuse the internet people only stick around for a couple minutes if you don't confuse them make them double take

then they're gone. It's like this guy's writing like you know sweet jazzy music and he's like this guy's writing sweet, jazzy music, and he's like, it's an animal. Just a little. Dirty animal. Turd.

Yeah. No, I liked it. But with Rock Roll Nightclub, I mean, it is kind of compared. The stuff I did before that, then Rock Roll Nightclub was like the first Mac DeMarco whatever. OK. All the stuff was just me recording everything, but it's like, that was my name or whatever. Okay. You know, all the stuff was just me recording everything, but it's like that was my name or whatever.

Yeah. But it was like a lot of those songs in there are like, you know, I slowed everything down, tried to sing like Elvis. It's just like ridiculous. And then it had almost like a Zappa vibe with the recurring comedy bits, right? Yeah. Was that the one with the radio channel, the DJ? Stuff like that, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was just, I made that just out of complete, I wasn't really doing my old band anymore. I was living in Montreal, didn't have a lot going on. Not the make-out video, you mean? Yeah, because I hadn't done anything with that for a while. Made those songs by, I was trying to write Ramones songs, like real fast, power pop, you know, power chords.

Sure, yeah. And I suck at it, like I found out. But if I turned it all, slowed it way down on the tape machine, then I was like, oh, what's this? So, you know, and then sang like really low and just wrote like really you know writing about like leather boots and like motor cycles and stuff like stuff i don't have any idea about but i you know attach with rock and roll for some reason so and some of your heroes were that yeah yeah you know sure so it's like and then you know, sure. So it's like, and then, you know, luckily for me, that's the one, or funnily enough, too,

that's the one that the labels were like, oh, okay, you know, so my record label's like, we're signing you up. I'm like, okay, you know. Yeah, what label's that? Captured Tracks out of New York. All these jazz progressions and things,

all this sweet music, like, who's in your audience? What kind of kids are you attracting? They get younger and younger now. But I don't know. It's funny, especially you talking about the Jerry Garcia stuff. As soon as I put, like in the gatefold of Salad Days, there's the dead logo flag, and it's in my room.

As soon as that was in the album art, it was just like we'd play. In a smaller town or something, there'd be a dude like, Hey, man, saw that flag. You like the dead? And I'm like, you know, but they'd wait for all the younger fans to leave and then be like, let's talk. Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting. I mean, my crowd is kind of, I mean, I get like a lot of people, you know, all shapes and sizes and any, you know, age or whatever. But not metalheads.

No, probably not metalheads, no. Do you have the sort of like jock element? Sometimes, like the frat boy. Yeah. You know, the frat boy, which is kind of terrifying because it's like, I didn't want to play for you guys. You know, power to anybody. Anybody can listen. I'm not trying to be exclusive you guys. You know, power to anybody. Anybody can listen. I'm not trying to be exclusive or anything.

Well, maybe you find something in them. Maybe that's a good indication. Maybe you've provoked, you've shaken something loose. Maybe, hopefully. Make that guy a sweet guy. They're not all bad. They're just doing what they think they ought to do to fit in. They're just confused.

We're all trying to fit in. But lately it's been the fans. to fit in. But lately, it's been the fans, and I, you know, in my experience of going to shows

and being younger, I really appreciated it when bands, even when I'm in my hometown or Vancouver or Montreal, would do

all-ages shows. Yeah. And, you know, keep it, you know, kind of like Ian McKay, Minor Threat,

whatever. Sure. So it's important to me to do all-ages shows and, you know, the younger fans are definitely

the craziest, but we, yeah, we do it, but we just keep getting it. You do all ages shows and you know the younger fans are definitely the craziest but we yeah we do it but we just keep getting you do all ages shows a lot yeah a lot

but the kids are yeah they're nuts we have like a lot of times we'll be playing in the whole first three rows of like 15 year old kids

and I'm like this is oh really it's great but they're just like you can feel that they're not fully formed no no no

and I like to crowd surf with the shows and like when you have people that young that haven't been to a show with crowd surfing before especially not the lightest guy yeah more compared to even a couple years ago i'm like crushing these little kids yeah yeah i feel bad but i think they like it i don't know but sure sure they it's part of it it's part of the she crushed me yeah yeah I hurt my hand yeah so you're you're touring with a full band now yeah yeah

it's changed a little bit we've kind of had a similar setup for the last since 2 came out I guess so years ago

5 or 6 years ago a couple guys have left but it's still yeah we got a guy named John on the bass my friend Joe on the bass, my friend Joe on the drums, my friend Andy on lead guitar.

Yeah. I do a couple things here and there, and then we just added my old friend that grew up in my block in Edmonton. The bass player? No, he's the new keyboardist. So you're keeping the local guys going. You gotta keep it local. Yeah.

So you got, so is your folk still in Edmonton? My mom is, yeah. She is still in the house I grew up in. Okay. She kind of bounces. She was down here for a little while and kind of all over the place. And the old hippie?

Old hippie is out there somewhere, yeah. Gives me a call every once in a while. Hey, I heard your song about me, kid. I'm like, hey, man, how you doing? Did he say that? Uh-huh. And what do you think? I was like, wait until you hear the rest, buddy.

Is that the one that's getting airplay i think that's yeah it's that one in the the dog song those are the two that are out right now so where are you touring now what's what's the plan in may it like starts for the whole year so it'll be oh yeah europe oh really europe here europe here then like asia how's europe australia for you I think it's great. But do they like you? Most places. Um, I think, you know,

guitar music does a little bit stranger and say places, you know, countries like Germany, like, um, I liked your clothing, but your music. No,

it's not for me. It's like, why did you come? Where do you get the best draw? The UK probably is like like i think it's one of the crazy between i mean southern california is crazy for us new york can be crazy but the kids in southern cal there's like big community of yeah young kid they like burger records and stuff like that they're like really into it so that's good and then the uk is like you know between that

maybe buenos aires is like really crazy for us. And then. Really? How does that happen? Is it airplay or what? I don't really know. But, you know, I always think of that story, you know, like the story of the Ramones. They're playing like at CBGB's in New York. Then they go down there.

They're playing like a fucking. Arena. Arena. Yeah. Which, I mean, we weren't, we're not playing anything that big, but it's like, you know, the shows are like at least as big as we do in New York or L.A. or even bigger. And the kids down there, it's like the one night of the year where you get to feel like the Beatles, they're like, ah!

It's like, oh, my God. There's people waiting outside the hotel all night. It's like, this is. That's wild. You're really weird, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's exciting. Yeah.

But the U.K., yeah, the kids are U.K. Solid. Yeah, they're great. And you played with the Japandroids? Long time ago, yeah. I like those guys. Nice guys, yeah. Canadian guys.

Good band. They were on my first record label when I was 19 or 20. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, first tour I ever went on, they were kind of like, they rock pretty hard. Yeah, they rock hard. Yeah, yeah. Now, outside of Richmond, have you gotten to play with any of your other heroes or met them? in Richmond have you gotten to play with any of your other heroes or met them um we I mean we could do a lot of festivals nowadays so we've got to see a lot of

people say like you know we saw Neil Young and I Russ gild the festival this year that was amazing you mean tried oh yeah met the sound guys son he gave me the backstage pass and we tried to go up to the stage and they were like no no no but it was great he played keep on rocking for like i think 40 minutes sure just and he was rocking oh hell yeah dude yeah yeah doing those solos yeah that was amazing um who i you know i did meet one of my heroes recently who went for lunch with michael mcdonald the singer yeah that was incredible um long you know strange story of how we got hooked up but uh he's on thundercats new record yeah because he's like kind of your classic collaborator guy you

know and he always has been so doobie brothers oh yeah but uh he yeah i think he's been you know checking out some newer contemporary stuff and the stuff he did with thundercat is insane him and kenny too it's like oh yeah it's insane, it's insane. That record's insane. It's amazing, yeah. I just got it. I listened to it yesterday. It's really good. Michael McDonald. See, that area of music, for me, he's one of your guys.

You like that guy. I love it. Yeah, I love it. Do you like the Doobie Brothers? Oh, yeah. See, I grew up with that shit. When I was in seventh grade, black water was a huge hit you remember that song oh black water keep on oh yeah it's like a big is that pre michael though yeah yeah

but i mean they were around china grove yeah a lot of my friends you know or i have this one friend his dad is always like michael mcdonald ruined the doobie brothers right and what did they were with skunk baxter a little bit, too. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, Michael McDonald came in and made those, what was his big Doobie Brothers hit? What a Fool Believes. Yeah.

What a Fool Believes. Minute by minute. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Minute by minute. Amazing. It's so funny, man. I love it. You love it.

I love it. I love it. That's where it comes from. Yeah, I love, you know, that kind of, that's where it comes from yeah i love you know that kind of that's it's a newer thing for me um not well not new but like say like steely dan i love steely dan i love stuff like that you know but there is you know you might just be my bridge because because like i you know because i can i find your music enjoyable and palatable, right? But I struggle with Steely Dan.

A lot of people do, and I understand. And the way that I feel about it is, say, I listen to Neil Young or something, or Joni Mitchell or the band or something, and what I get from that is a real emotional response. Because you can feel the personalities in between them. from that is like uh it's a real emotional response you know or sometimes it's it's there you can feel the personality yeah there's something between them there's something there yeah and with some of michael's stuff but steely dan in particular it almost like very rarely do i get any kind of emotional response exactly it's just like you know

new york you know guys just being like yeah we're like making these jokes that nobody understands and it's kind of like, yeah. Production math. Well, exactly. But that's the thing. For me, it's more about just listening like, oh, my God. Like, oh, listen to that Steve Gadd fill. It's almost like porn or something.

So there it is. You just kind of got to let it be what it is. But see, that's exactly the trip, man, because it is almost antithetical to what we were talking about at the beginning. Oh, totally. That raw authenticity that people like Joni or Neil or the band, when they're together,

they can't avoid it. I mean, it's what makes them amazing, outside of being amazing musicians, but there's a lot of room for messiness. Oh, yeah. Where is Steely, though? No, fuck no. And not with the Doobie Brothers either.

Uh-uh. It's like it's almost it exists in this weird chamber that is like not devoid of rawness, but kind of. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, session musicians just completely. And you get off on like that precision of sound sometimes you know it's almost like if i found it comical in a way where it's like because some of that steely dance stuff is so whether it's the lyrics or the playing right sound so ridiculous right and it's

like and to have something like that become a hit you know it's like pop fusion jazz you know i love steely i really they got nothing bad to say about them but it is hilarious a lot of the time hilarious music but well the thing is it's like it's ear candy to some people it's almost like you know the the sort of compression of it and the production of it yeah that's what really turns people is that that precision of sound is like they they just it's like crack to them yeah and they're real passionate about it and like i i don't dismiss them as being mediocre or just it's like crack to them yeah and they're real passionate about it and like i i don't dismiss them as being mediocre or shitty it's just really like either you like

it or you don't well yeah it's you know it's i think you know a lot of especially people that are like looking for it's people that like the highest quality and things you know right and they like they they don't want uh they they don't want to be anxious yeah they don't be challenged necessarily it's very well it's great talking to you yeah and now you're going to show me that scale yeah i can show it to you no problem thanks buddy yeah god bless mac demarco i think we we found that we found some of the keys to what makes his sound sound like it does, and it's still unusual that I like him so much.

That's not passive-aggressive. I'm just, I'm baffled, but I like him, and his records are great. Mark Lanigan, man. Mark Lanigan. Heavy man. Deep. Lanigan. What a great singer.

As a solo artist and with the Screaming Trees. Do you remember those first two Screaming Trees records? I think they were actually the first two I heard. They were probably like the fourth and fifth Screaming Trees record. But big voice, and I loved his first solo record. But he's done a lot of stuff, and I was excited to meet him and hang out with him in the garage so uh his new album uh from the mark lanigan band is called gargoyle comes out tomorrow april 28th and this is me and mark lanigan having a conversation The Copenhagen thing, so you grew up with it,

so you were one of those guys who could just take a pinch and boop, right in there. Well, eventually. I mean, the first time I did it, I got really sick. Well, that's the thing that gets you. It's funny, with Copenhagen and heroin, never a great experience first time out, but for some reason, the guys that commit, they'll ride that out. Yeah.

Well, I should have gotten sick the first time I did heroin, but that didn't happen. I did it many, many more times before I started working against me. Well, so that worked out too well the first time. Indeed. But you're still alive. Somehow. Against all odds. But I mean, like what to, you know, in order to dip as a kid, you got to live a certain life. I mean, where did you, where did that start?

Where'd you grow up? I grew up in a small town in central Washington, which is like mainly farming, ranching. Near Spokane or no? Right between Spokane and Seattle, right in the exact center of the state. So like Washington, like, you know, it always strikes me as beautiful, but there's a sort of creepiness at the core somewhere. the core somewhere well i once read that uh most serial killings happen in washington and florida in the corners of the really yeah people hit the uh hit the edge literally and they're like i guess i got to go back in and do some bad work i've gone as far as i can go geographically within

the confines of this country. Now I've got to go make my mark. Yeah, I mean, Ted Bundy did damage in both states. He actually killed somebody in my hometown. Really? I remember when I was a little kid at Pizza Hut. Yeah. There was a flyer on the wall for a missing girl.

She turned out to be one of his victims. Oh, you remember that from, that was one of those things. Yeah. That first time you see something like that as a kid, it kind of burns its way in there. Yeah, I mean, apparently something else burned its way into Ted Bundy himself. Yeah, that's for sure. Because I was a kid. But, uh.

Well, what, did you grow up on a farm? No, but I grew up in the country. Yeah? Yeah. And what'd you do out there? No, but I grew up in the country. Yeah? Yeah. And what'd you do out there? I wished that I was somewhere else. The whole time? Pretty much, yeah.

Big family? No, small. Just me and my mom and dad and my sister. That was it? Was he a farmer? No. They were school teachers. Oh, that's noble.

I guess. Is the memories too polluted by other things? Yeah, man. It's too raw. Yeah? Bad times. That's what started you rolling, I guess. I guess so, yeah.

I was the black sheep of a small family. When did you start doing music? I used to collect comic books as a kid, and there was a comic book store in my town. Yeah. Thank God for those, right? Yeah, actually, that saved me because I saw a picture of Iggy Pop on the front of a magazine that he was giving away.

Yeah, because he couldn't sell it? No one wanted it? I think it was one of those Iggy Pop on the front of a magazine that he was giving away. Yeah. Because he couldn't sell it? No one wanted it? I think it was one of those where he cut off half the cover. Oh, yeah. Right. They used to do in the 70s.

Oh, it was one of those, that means that they didn't sell them, they were going to send them back. I guess so, yeah. I think it's what they, they'd get credit. How did that work? They'd cut off the title of the magazine

and send those back for something, for credit. I don't know, whatever. So it was half a cover of Iggy. Yeah, and I thought, you know, what's this? Who's that guy? And I asked the kind of older hippie that ran the shop. Thank God for those guys. Yeah, naturally.

Yeah. You know, who's this and he said oh you know i have some some 45s and uh played me i want to say it was tight pants or something uh-huh and i was that's what got me hooked within like a couple of days i'd traded in all my comic books for credit on records so i listened to you know the original like uh sex pistol singles i had those and the damn stranglers from the from that same shop yeah from that same shop man and then as i got a little older i started to take the greyhhound bus to Seattle and walk around to different record stores. But I literally didn't know anybody in Ellensburg to listen to that same kind of music for years. So we're like the same age.

So that was a give or take a year. So that was like that time where you really, those were the only places you could get it. You needed that one record store or you needed this weird community of friends that would send you shit from other places, or else you were just locked in mainstream fucking townie music, which isn't bad. You know, there's a lot of good rock and roll around. Well, you know, in Ellensburg,

literally nobody even knew who Jimi Hendrix was that I knew. Really? Yeah, it was was all the local radio was i want to say uh country music uh-huh but you know 70s style so that was terrible right but yeah the rock thing was really it was it was a wasteland and we're talking like what you know early 70s mid 70s Mid to late 70s. And that was, you were like, there's a different world out there. Where's that world?

Yeah, so I just listened to that stuff in solitude for several years and then eventually met some guys who were younger than me. In Ellensburg? Yeah, that were into that same kind of music, and they ended up being the guys I was in my first band with which band screaming trees so those guys were all from your hometown they were yeah so you knew them growing up and I actually knew who they were the Conner brothers yeah cuz it's a small town I'm one of my earliest memories when I still lived in the town walking to say like first grade or something yeah yeah

seeing this kid sitting in a in a like waiting pool in this front yard and he smiled at me and that that was man Connor yeah you know I knew who he was my entire life but didn't really know him until I was 18 that's kind of weird about like smaller cities or smaller towns. There is just a little bit of distance, but you've seen them around. You know? Yeah. And these guys were really physically imposing. Big guys.

Really big guys. Outside the norm. Were they twins? No. Do people ask that a lot yeah they used to i just remember that first screaming shirt well not the first one that was a surprising thing because like like i you know the one i heard was the one with the hits on it the one that became big and i fucking love that record but you know you guys were at it for a while yeah i mean

we made i want to say four records in the 80s so yeah you know but we were making them like every eight months so all right so you meet those guys in your hometown and they and what'd you play did you play or were you just singing i was a terrible drummer i just had like half of a drum kit that some guy had traded me for some weed. But you were drumming? Well, they wanted me to, but I was arguably a worse drummer than I was a singer, and I was a pretty bad singer for years. Really? Yeah, it took me a while to learn how to do it. Who were you like like, initially, who were you modeling yourself after? Well, initially I was singing songs that the guitar player for the Trees wrote, and he wrote them, you know, to suit his voice.

And he had a much higher voice than me, so. Oh, so you're shredding your... I was either, like, singing really high or singing, like, two octaves lower, which was easier, but also still like completely not correct. Not your sweet spot. Not my sweet spot at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We weren't anywhere close to being savvy enough to like change keys on anything.

Right. For years, literally, I just tried to find a way to sing stuff. No one could just write down like, well, these are these three. Let's just drop them down or move them up or throw a capo on it's like we're stuck in these dude we didn't even know how to change the change the strings on a guitar really so is that true well yeah yeah you how old were you guys um i was 20 when we first started and a couple of the guys were 15. And then the older Connor brother was, I want to say 22. Yeah, yeah.

So where'd you play? Like whose garage? Well, we actually rehearsed in the back of a video store that the Connor family owned. Oh, yeah? There was a big room back there. I worked for them in that shop for a

while you were renting videos selling videos yeah renting them out they have an x section they did yeah yeah that's always helpful it was you know most popular section sure i would think up there in the middle of washington yeah it wasn't uh i know i think it was probably the only place you could get X-Ray videos in our home town. So you knew a little bit about the adults in the community. Yeah. Their tastes as far as the...

Secret keeper. Right. Yeah. So you're in the back of the store, you and the fellas, hammering it out. Yeah. You know, we actually started recording like a month after we first rehearsed because there happened to be a guy who lived in our hometown

that was uh recording bands and had a four track or an eight. It was an eight track. Yeah. And we ended up making our first four records on that eight track, like all in maybe three years time. And who released them? Well, the first one was released by the guy who recorded it. Sure. And then we started making records

for SST here in California. Are they even still around? Well, I think he's still selling records, but out of a warehouse in Arizona, I think. Because that was a pretty important label in its day. Yeah, I mean, for us it was... It must have been like, holy shit. Yeah, it was. It was still like the most exciting thing that's happened to me in 30 years.

Getting that first SST deal? Was getting a phone call from Greg getting an SST, which I didn't even believe it was him. Yeah. Who were they? And you knew all the bands on there, I imagine. Yeah, we were big Black Flag fans. Oh, yeah? We were Husker Du fans,

Minutemen. Minutemen. Sonic Youth. They were all on SST. They were all on SST. We were on there at the same time as Sonic Youth and Dinosaur. Well, it was completely bizarre from where we were from

to, you know, making records for them. Well, what was that first trip down there like? Well, we were playing record stores all the way down to California, and that was it. And because there was a guy who worked at SST who was friends with the guy who produced our first record, he came out as a courtesy to see us play, and that's really how we got hooked up with those guys.

He got excited when he saw us play live to like five people in a record store in Santa Monica. Man, I bet you don't miss those gigs. I still play those gigs, Mark. Just not with the band, by myself. More than five. I've played to nobody. If there was a negative audience i could have played well that's oh that's an interesting thing about you i guess interesting is a diplomatic word probably

from your perspective but i mean you know you're one of the great rock and roll singers and you've done like you have an amazing catalog of work yet how does that happen mark why are you playing to nobody in a record store i don't know how that happens but it does occasionally fucking music right you know i play that i've played at weddings i've played at a funeral i've played everything as a as a as a to honor somebody or as a paid gig to honor somebody but both times wedding and funeral okay but it wasn't like man things are bad i gotta get a wedding gig no but if somebody offered me one i would definitely take it would you depending on you know how how low my my bank account was at that point well lightning addict did that is they did that beautiful box set, right? Yeah, they did an anthology.

Sub Pop did a box set a couple years ago of all my early records. Yeah. And do they sell all right? Well, when Sub Pop released the box set, I finally recouped with them after 17 years. So I guess it sold something. So you're even with Sub Pop pop i'm even with them now yeah so what was going on like so you're like you signed an sst in your 20 21 who put out the big record that you guys did uh epic so what what was happening when you got there what year was it

we actually signed in 1989 to epic which which was sort of predated everybody else. Really? Yeah. In fact, I remember they were putting us on metal compilations, and there really wasn't the sort of grunge genre. Yeah. It's weird, because in retrospect, I don't know if it was a genre. Was it? Really? No. It's just, I don't know if it was a genre. Was it?

Really? No. It's just, you know. Because you guys were rock bands. I mean, all, you know, like Pearl Jam is a rock band. Nirvana is a rock band with a few, you know, pop chords. Yeah, I mean, like most things, it was a media construct. Well, but was there a community?

Well, it was a small city, so you knew everybody. Musically, it seemed to us that everybody sort of had their own thing going. So when you guys are doing that stuff, when that scene is happening, I mean, what's your relationship with, because I know you worked a bit with some of nirvana right i did yeah that's how i actually started making soul records was um kurt and i were friends and we decided to uh try and make an ep of lead belly covers lead belly being someone that we both like a lot we were sitting around listening to him one day and thought hey hey, we should do a record of this stuff.

Why not? And Sub Pop agreed to put it out. Yeah. And we booked some time in the studio. About an hour into the first day in the studio, we kind of looked at each other and thought uh maybe this was like a half-baked idea you know so we uh we finished like one or two songs and and then just decided to shelve it which ones which songs because they covered that one right that's sort of an off the beaten track one which one did they do inines? Yeah, which is also the song that we did together,

which ended up being on my first solo record. That one and one other one. I can't remember what it was called. But that was the one that we were like, hey, this one's good. And after we told Sub Pop we weren't going to finish making this thing, they said to me, why don't you make a solo record? And that was the catalyst for me learning how to play guitar.

I remember that. Oh, yeah? Is that where you learned? Yeah? Yeah, it was because of that. See, you're one of those guys, and I've talked to people before, where musicians, you can be a fan of a few of their records, but then when you sit down with them, you're like, oh, man, they got 90 out. I missed that one record, like 20 records. you can be a fan of like a few of the records, but then when you sit down with them, you're like, oh man, they got 90 out. I missed that.

I'd miss that one record, like 20 records. Yeah, man, I have way too many records, so. No, but you keep working. Well,

no choice. If you had a choice, would you stop? If I won the lotto, I might just sit on a beach somewhere. Ah, the lotto. Yeah,

the big dream. Yeah, the lotto hope. So, when you were in Seattle, when did the, did you get when the drug start then well i was always partial to drugs when i lived in eastern washington yeah what were you getting in eastern washington uh everything you get anywhere yeah yeah yeah but you were sort of there, like that tar shit preceded the meth shit, right? Yeah. And for me, both.

Both worked out. Yeah. You got to be up and you got to be down. Yeah, simultaneously. Part of my story. Yeah? Yeah. Did you find, because I was trying

to kind of tap into like as I listen to gargoyle and you know those I like I tend to like that like I like those last two cuts the first day of winter and old swan you know I get on that on the new record and and I like there's always been the thing about your voice, but not just about your voice. It doesn't seem to matter who you're playing with. There's this, what did I write down? Me and my poetic impulse. I said

the tone of sound, you can feel the Pacific Northwest, the haunting comfort of the weight of the gloomy sky. And I said, he's an existential Viking. There you go that's your there's your blurb do you need a blurb for gargoyle i just got it thanks man but you know i think something there there is something to that don't you ever i mean there there's a place

you go emotionally with the way you sing and also with the chords you use and even over the years, whatever song it is, it creates a space, man. I mean, I don't know how to ask an artist about that, but do you feel that? Do you feel where that came from? Do you think that some of that had to do with Washington or dope or what? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, speaking of box sets, one of the first things that I actually heard that sort of informed where I would go with my own records,

I was working in a warehouse for a chain of record stores in Seattle, and I had made three records with the trees already. Yeah. But again, I wasn't writing songs or doing any of that stuff. And I saw this nick drake box set called fruit tree and it on the cover it's just a picture him like a long overcoat smoking cigarette like walking on a beach or next to a lake or something yeah black and white photo

and i got fruit tree huh you know what is this and i asked the guy who worked there and he goes oh man this stuff is great and he made me a cassette of nick drake tim buckley and leonard cohen all three of who i'd never heard before how old were you 23 oh that was it the portal yeah and so that uh that really spoke to me in a way that you know very few things had before that type of music. And I want to say maybe within six months, I had written the songs for my first solo record and made that record. So it was really sort of my version of that stuff. Sure. You were under the influence and not in your own voice yet necessarily.

Right. Yeah. And could barely play three chords on the guitar to write these songs. So that was it. That was it. And I mean, everything I've done since then, it's basically the same, but with a little bit more artistry, I guess. So I've been really lucky to play with guys who are actually really proficient and great artists.

Well, you are. You're a great singer. Thanks. But like Nick Drake, I was just talking to another dude about that today. I think I just picked up his third album. That song, somebody asked me about which songs make me cry consistently. And that song, Time Has Told Me. That's beautiful, yeah. Oh, my God.

It didn't end well for that guy. No, it didn't. But I guess it doesn't really end well for everybody. No, no, no. The end is not good. You just hope it's fast. And I guess if you decide on it, if you do it correctly

it might be pretty quick yeah do you find that you know i guess when you listen to nick drake there's that element where you can hear the weight of of i don't know if it's sad i guess it's sadness there's definitely a space that's created and and you do it too, that it feels like it could be sadness, but it isn't. It's almost like embracing a certain darkness. I mean, do you ever feel like what you're doing is literally saving your life? Well, yeah, you know, for a long time I wouldn't have copped to that, but I think that it's true. Right. of cop to that but i think that it's true you know um right it's giving me an outlet for whatever these you know ideas and thoughts and give me a place to sort of create this uh

alternate reality that's in the song or yeah so cushions it right yeah yeah it's a big dark cushion that's the other blurb big dark cushion i'm trying to help you out it's working did you find that did you find you know and i don't and i don't talk about this much but i'm always curious about it because i don't talk to too many people that have had a long experience with dope but do you find that like because i've known a couple of dudes that i don't think they could have had the perception that they had with without it you know that's so hard to say, really. Is it? Well, I mean... Because I was never a dope guy. I did a few times, but it didn't take. I'm probably lucky.

Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah. You know, that's like... Well, you've done it both. You've written songs on and off. I have, and I've done records that I thought were really good on, and I've done records that I thought were really good off, and I've done records I thought were really good off, and I've done records that couldn't come out

because they were so bad when I was on. You know, yeah. Ultimately, it's... It's a crapshoot. It's a gamble. Well, yeah, it's a gamble, and, you know, my experience with that stuff is ultimately not a positive one

because of the, it's done to my existence. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, really, to be honest about drugs, the only drugs I ever did that sort of enhanced my abilities i thought yeah wasn't really dope but uh weed at one time sure like made me do stuff that i never would have done otherwise i quit smoking weed for about five years and then around the time i made my second solo record whiskey i decided to smoke weed yeah and it made me do some stuff that i had never you know thought about doing and of course it turned on me quickly like all drugs oh yeah because like if you've got

the bug you're just gonna do it all day long well anything i ever did that's all i ever did yeah after the first time it wore off i was doing it again so it's your job but and then there was a brief period of time when and i shouldn't even say this because i don't in any way advocate right because ultimately it was really damaging as well but there was a period of time when i thought like you know this meth thing is really working for me artistically i'm really getting a lot done a lot lot done. But those are really the only two, you know. Well, I didn't get, like, I definitely was, you know, absorbed with weed in a big way. But, like, meth, I'd done both meth and dope.

And, like, meth, like, I get it. You know, there's at least a feeling of clarity. Yeah, definitely. Ultra clarity. And, you know, there is an excitement to it certainly but it just really comes down to i guess whether you want to risk your teeth and your mental faculties right yeah yeah yeah and it's it's a dirty drug it's dirty yeah it's like it's just non-organic non-organic indeed as chemical as they come yeah yeah so okay so you do the solo records now how

did the relationship with um with josh start well josh hami he lived in seattle in uh early well maybe like 94 he was living in se, 95. Yeah. Going to college, he had quit Caius and was trying to... Fucking Caius, what a band, dude. Great band. Weren't they? Yeah, fantastic. Wow. And he was trying to get on the straight and narrow?

Yeah, he was trying to get on the straight and narrow. His brother lived in Seattle and he was enrolled in University of Washington. I had never met him, but I was a fan of Caius. And the bass player in the Screamy Trees knew Josh from something they had done together. Yeah. And we were looking to get a second guitar player. And he ended up saying yes, he would do it. So he was actually already in the band by the time I met him.

In your band? Yeah. They had rehearsed with him and everything. And then I came one day, and he was actually already in the band by the time I met him. In your band? Yeah. They had rehearsed with him and everything. And then I came one day and he was there. He seems, that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, it was obvious right away that he had way more on the ball than any of us. He was just sort of playing these rhythm guitar parts. But we got along really well.

And eventually, we were both living down here he asked me to sing on the first Queens record but I was in the long-term rehab at that point I couldn't get out like six month actually went almost a year for the dope yeah everything yeah yeah and you couldn't get out to sing i couldn't get out to sing um and by the time he made the second record i did quite a bit of singing on that one right and then the next couple i've actually been on all of them except for the first one so when you were in a year rehab did did that stick? It did, yeah, for a few years. So no.

Well, it didn't stick forever. Yeah, yeah. But what does? I know. Are you sober now or not? I am, yeah. Yeah? Like working it or just?

I'm working it, yeah. Oh, good, man. That's good. That's pretty much the only thing that. You feel better? Of course, yeah. Yeah. A little more freedom, huh?

Yeah. The job is over. Lots more freedom. So, like, it seems to me like, you know, when I look at the stuff you did, that you definitely get a tremendous amount of respect from the community in a lot of different ways, in a way that not a lot of singers do,

or rock performers do. Like, you know, it seems like the alt--x you know the the hipster kids love you the fucking hardcore you know all rockers love you and then the hard rock dudes fucking love you like you can you have this this uh this ticket to or this like ability to because your instrument is so uh solid that you can work with all these different people. That's kind of an amazing thing. Do you recognize that? I don't know if I recognize the love you just described, but I recognize the opportunity that I've had

to work with all kinds of different people. Guns N' Roses guys. Well, Duff's a good friend of mine yeah he's a seattle guy too he is huh yeah and that like but that's a whole other world i mean there's differences in these worlds like there's differences in the world in my mind maybe not in yours or maybe not and but there's a difference in the guns and roses circle and the dinosaur junior circle well yeah they seem to be different orbits. Like, you know, rock, you know, at Los Angeles, Hollywood, rock and roll is specific.

I mean, and I think that, you know, Josh is sort of in between those sometimes, but he's definitely a hard rock guy. But then when you think about Jay, Jay's a hard rock as hell, but it's like his own weird thing, you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I mean, there definitely are differences in the specific, you know. Communities? Communities, I guess, but that doesn't mean that people don't, you know.

Hang out? Interact with people. Well, see, that's weird weird because as a guy who likes music and is somewhat of a fan and not, you know, you have a lot of different people, you get this weird assumption that you guys are like comic book people. Like you're like superheroes of some kind. And there are these different factions that, you know, but behind the scenes I've learned after talking to people, it's like, you know, you pass in the hallway or whatever the hallway is or whatever that represents, and we're like, what are you working on?

I got a thing going. It's like, you know, it's not, there's a difference between the front room and the back room, you know? Well, I think, you know, a lot of that kind of perception is probably because of the sort of mainstream success of one band compared to, like, the sort of sustained different kind of success of a different kind of band, you know what I mean?

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking the difference between Guns N' Roses and Dinosaur Jr. now. Right. At the end of the day, it's music, and you guys come in contact with people from all different kinds of bands. But you did a couple records with Isabelle from Belle and Sebastian? I did. I made three records with her.

Now, was that, were you guys in a relationship? No. How did that, how does that happen? See, that's one of those things where it's like, you're a singer, and, you know, she's singing. It's like it makes sense, but it seems two different worlds, doesn't it? Or not to you?

Well, I mean, I was a fan of Bill and Sebastian, but it was definitely not in my direct realm. Yeah. Not the kind of... You weren't hanging out. Not hanging out. Right.

She got in contact with me via a record company or a management or something and wanted me to sing on one song, which I did. And then we ended up meeting in a person and became friends and ended up making all these records together pretty records thank you you make pretty records with that with her well i agree thanks and which

one of that the record you did where there was a lot of collaboration like i don't know the record but i did some reading about it. Was it Bubblegum, that record? Yeah, it was your record. Yeah. And there was a shit ton of people on there. Yeah, I made that while I was playing with the Queens. So all those guys were on it.

Was PJ Harvey on it? She sang on a couple songs, yeah. Are you pals with her? We know each other. Yeah. I wouldn't say we're pals, but I'm a huge fan of what she does. I mean, she's the greatest. She's something, right?

Yeah. And what happened? So how did you manage to, are you married? I've been married a couple times. I'm in the process of ending my second marriage right now. Yeah, I've been through a couple. You got kids? No.

Me neither. We did it. Yeah, we won, man. Don't ever look at it differently. Oh, wait, before we get to the new record. The Afghan Whigs, they were a band that I remember, like, you know, enjoying a couple of their records. And I know they just, they did a new one recently.

And I know that, you know, Greg's out, you know, talking to people. And I haven't talked to him because I'm nervous. I get nervous about musicians sometimes. But you guys have known each other a long time and you work together? Can can i listen a little bit of one of the records you do with him yeah i mean we played on a bunch of records together we're good friends how did you guys uh come together with you because you record under another band name right well we recorded with his band twilight singers uh sang with those guys played on a few of their records he's played on a bunch of my records we've made a record together called the gutter twins right that one yeah and we um

well you just like-minded you just get along yeah we're just you know real good friends yeah is that from seattle days we knew each other in seattle but we didn't really hang out until we both lived down here, like in the late 90s again. Man. Tough racket. Music. It's like, because when I'm going over your stuff and I'm planning to talk to you, there's just so many different side projects, so many different bands.

You've sung on fucking everything. Have you met most of your heroes? I've met quite a few of them, yeah. Like who else? Well, one of my first heroes was a guy named Greg Sage. He was in a band from Portland, Oregon called The Wipers. Yeah. And I want to say it was the second show I ever did was opening for him.

Became friends. He was also an influence on my first solo record along with that other stuff i mentioned because he had made a record a solo record that was heavily acoustic and that was i actually heard that before i heard nick drake and that stuff so uh he you know i spent a lot of time with him back in the 80s. Jeffrey again. Yeah. Rollins? Rollins, sure. Did shows with him.

And, you know, know him. He's great. He's a real character, man. Yeah, he's one of the greatest. I just remember before I actually knew Henry, playing a show with him at the old I-Beam in San Francisco. We played. Of course, the Conner brothers got in a fist fight on stage.

With each other? With each other, yeah. Oh, my God. That was the only person they would fight with was each other. Yeah. And then I was off the side of the stage, Rollins Band getting ready to go up, and Henry was like, in full view of the audience and everything,

doing push-ups or four-count burpees, like, you know, like working out on the side of the stage. I was like, man, this guy's... He means business. He is something else. And of course he is. Yeah. Is he doing all right?

Have you talked to him lately? I saw him, I want to say, in, God, maybe it was 2010. Oh, it's been a while. Yeah. But we have a lot of people in common. Yeah. He's a very,

he's an earnest motherfucker, man. He is, yeah. Great, great taste in music. Oh, he knows everything. Yeah. I talked to him once and he gave me all the, like I did a series of shows

with him spoken word things and he brought me like a hard drive said here's some stuff and I'm like holy shit where the fuck

do you even where did this come from you know like just like studio versions of things and like what what is this

yeah man he's something else so on Gargoyle it's like you've done this this is like your 10th record? 10th record with my name on it. Now, one thing I noticed, and I noticed this because maybe I'm wrong, but I recently got sent the promo version. It hasn't come out yet of Ray ray davies record a new record from the kings

and you know you know i don't know if it's because i'm 53 and that you know like i just listened to amy man's new record and she's around our age you know yeah well you're a little younger than me what are you 52 52 yeah that like you know people like it's i guess the point of making it seems that you know your voice and your songs sound uh uh like they're deeper and have more wisdom and that you know your own you know kind of vulnerability and fragility of just being where we are in life you can feel that alongside of this this is a good thing. Don't misunderstand it. That you can feel that alongside of what you've always been doing and it adds another dimension to it. Are you aware of that?

Do you feel like you're writing differently now? Well, I definitely feel like I'm better at it now because it's easier. I don't know if I'm just kidding myself or what. Right. I'm just kidding myself or what. But as far as like what the end result is, I don't really think about it. No. I just sort of like go on instinct.

Yeah. And I know that because I'm less critical of what I do now, I feel like it's getting better. That's it. That's what she said too. It's like I give less of a shit about what people think of me. Basically was the, I'm paraphrasing, but like once you get,

like once that, it's what a fucking relief that is. If there's any gift to, you know, living, continuing to live when you see, you know,

people and our peers pass at young ages is that eventually you stop giving a fuck about certain things. Indeed. That's a fucking gift. I gotta make sure I remember that. there were a lot of things when I was younger

that seemed like an awfully big deal that really it's just sort of like, what the oh man everything was a big deal to me when i was younger and now nothing is so but you can't there's no way to learn that before it happens no who's going to tell you that it's like hey you know what you shouldn't give a shit so much when you're fuck you yeah this is life or death here, man. Fuck you. Right? What do you know, old man? Who played on this record?

Alan Johannes plays on most of it. He's the guy I've made records with since Bubblegum. He produces them. But a lot of the music for this one was recorded and written by a guy named rob marshall a british guy how'd you find him he actually found me yeah asked me to do something for this project that he was doing and i recorded some vocals and i mean i heard it first and i was like yeah this is cool and i can do something with this and i wrote some words and record some vocals for his thing yeah and then he sent me an email saying i really like what you did i'd like to write something for you someday and i was like okay

well i filed that away and i was sort of running into a wall trying to finish this new record and i was not really digging what i was doing and i thought hey maybe that you're gonna call in a favor yeah maybe that guy's got something and so he ended up sending me a whole bunch of stuff which was again just as good as the stuff i had done for him and it was really easy to write too too. Oh, cool. Ended up half the record was his stuff. Well, I appreciate the fact that it's a reasonable amount of songs. Instead of? 90. You know, like, for some reason, people who do CDs are like,

we're going to put 18 songs on there. It's like, dude, you know, the records were good for a reason. You know, cut, you know, make some choices. Yeah, but I thought about just doing eight songs this time. Yeah. But, yeah, ten seems to be. Yeah, Amy did like ten on hers, too. I was like, thanks.

Because it feels like you made some decisions. You know what I mean? Well, in my case, it's just using exactly what I have. That's all I got. That's all I got. That's all I got for this one. Thank God it's enough. So are you going to go out and tour or what are you going to do?

Yeah, I'm going to tour in May, June, July in Europe and then maybe some state stuff in August and then back to Europe for a couple months. How are you holding up in Europe? How's the crowds? Well, it's the only place I have a crowd is Europe, so I managed to. Nothing wrong with that. It's worked for me for several years, so I'm lucky.

I don't know what it is or why that is, but it seems like you can hold on to the community longer with being somebody who's specific and has specific fans. It seems like you can continue to build there. Here, I don't know what's going on here. Yeah, I don't either. But I've managed to, you know, I tour every year in Europe and pay my bills from that, so I'm blessed.

You're all right. Yeah, blessed. Good. Still alive. Well, it was good talking to you, Mark. Nice talking to you. Mark L Lanigan. Intense.

Intense. Go to WTFpod.com. Check out the tour dates. Listen to the podcast. Get on the mailing list. No music today because there's no electricity at my house. I have no guitars. There's nothing but paintbrushes here.

Is there anything that'll make a sound? This is a... Here, let's do some experimental music. This is a small plastic container filled with tiny beads. Shh! Shh! Shh. Shh.

That was improvisational and quite frankly, odd. Yeah. And I did it. and that's my commentary on it boomer lives