WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 809 - John Michael Higgins / Maria Bamford

Episode Date: May 7, 2017

John Michael Higgins is instantly familiar to audiences after seeing him in the Christopher Guest movies and Pitch Perfect and so many other films and TV shows. But he and Marc discover in the middle of their conversation that they actually share a comedy connection going back decades. They also talk about his Broadway career and his big break playing David Letterman. Plus, Maria Bamford stops by to talk about her new Netflix special and explain why she's taking Improv 101 classes at the UCB. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

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Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters how's it going i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it how's everything i'm a little sickish i'm sick lee i'm sickish sick. I don't know, man. Woke up yesterday. Body was not in check. Shit was not in check. Stuff was going wrong. A little feverish. Some stomach issues. Don't need to get too graphic. Felt a little buggy, a little achy. God damn it. I've been running too hard, folks. Been pushing the envelope. Been overworking it it but i don't know maybe i got

a bug maybe it'll go away by tomorrow i hope so because i got things to do you know what i mean so today on the show john michael higgins yeah that guy from all those christopher guest movies very funny he lives down the street from me i had no ideas uh i'm surprised we're not hanging out and talking once a week that's a good time it's a good it was a good conversation i enjoyed it immensely and special treat maria bamford stops by because she's got some things going on and who doesn't love maria bamford i would i think every wtf should just be me and mar Bamford interviewing each other, perhaps. But yeah, so I don't know what's wrong with me. Let me get some business out of the way because it's Mark and WTF related business.

And I want to remind you to not forget that you can preorder the new WTF book, Waiting for the Punch, Words to Live By, from the WTF podcast if you go to WTFTF pod.com or Mark Marin book.com to get it. I gave a copy to my mom, my mom's, she was in town for a few days and I'm not attaching the sickness to that at all. I made it through two and a half days and then I got sick, but I'm not, I'm not hanging that on her. I think it's just exhaustion and a bug wouldn't do that to her. But my mom, back to the point my mom took a galley copy of the book

and could not put it down she was just fascinated by it and enjoying it immensely if you want an advanced copy of that book you can come to BookCon on June 3rd in New York City I'll be there with Brendan McDonald talking about the book and you can get a copy

before anyone else does and we'll be signing them. So go to thebookcon.com, thebookcon.com to get your tickets. They're $35 right now, but the price will go up in a couple weeks. And with your ticket, you can see all the other panels and presentations, not just me and Brendan, Jeffrey Tambor, Dan Brown, and Margaret Atwood all have panels on the same day. So come down, see us, get a book, see a bunch of great talks. Also, folks, speaking of books, I wanted to mention this because I got the book and I haven't mentioned it, but it's kind of a cool book. It's a very cool book. It's a book I'm in. It's called

Footnotes from the World's Greatest Bookstores by New Yorker cartoonist Bob Eckstein it's got beautiful illustrations and then there are these stories from people like me David Bowie, Terry Gross Philip Glass, Jonathan Ames and more about bookstores and it's a beautiful book and I would pick it up

I'm in it and I forgot I was in it and I forgot to mention it before it makes a great Mother's Day gift. So go pick it up wherever you get books, but especially at your neighborhood independent bookstore. But let's talk on about if we could. My mother came out Wednesday. I picked her up at the airport and we did. We hung out for a few days. I put her at a hotel in Pasadena because there's no room at my house for my mother. That's not going to happen.

So we did the things. Sarah and I and my mom, we did museums. We went to the Broad Museum. We went to the LA Contemporary Art Museum. We went out to eat some things. We saw the Tim Robbins play Harlequino down at the Actors Gang. I just loaded it up, and I did things that I never do,

like go out and do things. I was supposed to do stand-up the other night, and she was going to come, but I just couldn't manage it because I got sick. Again, it's not my mom. She's gone now, but it's not her. So congratulations, France.

There's a little bit of hope that the entire world is not drifting into some sort of horrendous populist fascism for the time being. We'll hold it back as long as we can. And I'm glad we helped out by setting a horrendous example for you. Oh my God. My tummy hurts. Look, folks, Maria Bamford is a close friend of mine. She lives down the street and I love her. Her new standup special is Maria Bamford, Old Baby. It's now streaming on Netflix. Season two of her Netflix show, Lady Dynamite, premieres this summer. And I was thrilled to have her by the house to have a little chit-chat. So this is me.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Maria. What's happening? Maria Bamford. Well. I haven't talked to you in a while. I know. It has been a while.

I've walked from my house to your house, which is a 20-minute walk. Yeah. 22 minutes to be realistic. How was it? It was still a little hot on the head near the end. Should have brought a hat. Oh, because of the sun. Yeah, the sun turns out is a very powerful thing.

Yeah, can do a lot of damage and also a lot of good in the world. And a lot of good. Goes both ways, that sun. It does. And that hill at the end, that's not easy. No, that's, well, it's definitely, I'm glad I'm being tracked by my phone so that I know how much I've earned. Oh, I thought you said in case you went down. That's where my brain goes.

You're like optimistic and just see how many calories you burned off. And I'm like, yeah, if you're're dead I hope you don't have an auto lock because it's not going to help you oh is that something if they find your phone can they locate me or do I have to sign up for something to find my dead body somewhere with my iPhone on it well no someone would have to report

your phone lost in order for that that seems a roundabout way to do it if you have the do you know did you sign up for that thing where someone steals your phone the phone locator so someone have to be like i haven't seen marie in a few days how do we find her let's report her phone stolen let's see if it comes up on the map oh which is probably makes sense because that's most of what we know about each other is each other's phone numbers.

Or at least that's the information we have. Yeah. It's like, oh, like I don't know. Right. My parents' phone number, but I know. What, their cell phone number? But it's on your phone. It's on my phone.

I know. I don't know. I don't, you know, I, you know, I realized that the other day, like maybe I should memorize Sarah's phone number. Because if I don't have my computer or my phone. Yeah. And I'm in trouble because I've lost both those things, if I lost my computer and my phone, I would be able to call myself. Yeah, who should we call?

Well, let's just see if my phone rings. Maybe it's close by. I did memorize my beloved's phone number. Scott? Because somehow I thought. Is that his name? Yeah. Yeah.

I thought that was meaningful to me. That's the least I could do for him. Yeah. I felt, but I know he doesn't have mine, and I don't take that personally, so I don't know what. He seems in it for the duration, so. He's not going anywhere. He's not going anywhere.

With or without a phone number. With or without a phone number. He seems to be concerned. Uh-huh uh of my whereabouts did what what's um what's happening over with the new tv the next season is it done did this uh second season of lady dynamite it's not on yet is it no how'd it come out i think it was very good of course i, I think I have an inside bias as I am receiving a paycheck. Yeah, it's the least you can do for yourself is be biased towards your own show. There's no way to blame anybody else. Yeah, you know, it was okay, but the lead was, I don't know, not great.

We could have done some recasting there. It's like, oh. I know, I tried to get. That was the funny part. I was, it was so exhausting last year. I did not take in the dream coming true would mean that I would actually have to put out a lot of energy. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And 15 hour day, I said to myself, hey, can this year, can that be a part of the plot that I'm too tired to do my own show?

hey can this year can that be a part of the plot that i'm too tired to do my own show and i'm always played by one scene during the show by like a button or a pair of pants or a you know or you know an actual actor who needs work or you know just any sort of um animate or inanimate object that uh needs money yeah that might be reminiscent of me. Right. You know, it couldn't be. But, because there's so many great... Did you do that? Again, I pitched. That's another interesting thing about having your own show.

It's also Democratic. Yeah. At least I prefer to be Democratic. The vote was no. They wanted to have some... They wanted you and not a pair of pants? Yeah. To do the part of you? They don't have some... They wanted you and not a pair of pants to do the part of you.

They don't have any courage. They preferred Maria over the button idea. Little ham sandwich. That just moves around. It doesn't even work as a mouth. It's just a ham sandwich. It's not even animated in any way. You just have to move it from scene to scene.

I just thought it'd be delightful. But it is interesting how much, I just didn't know how much work went into it, which is sad and hilarious. Well, yeah, because there's like, when it's your show and you're producing and you're acting and you're part of the writing, it's like you got to be there for all the writing. You got to be there for all the acting. And it's nice if you're in the editing room. Oh, wait a minute. I didn't even do that. I didn't do any of the writing. You've got to be there for all the acting. And it's nice if you're in the editing room. Oh, wait a minute. I didn't even do that. I didn't do

any of the writing. I just went in and had a salad every once in a while and said, I'd never say that. And then... And then... I never went into editing. And I didn't do any of the directing either. I just... I did the least I could have done. Oh, my God.

Well, that's good. It's nice that you're able to not micromanage shit and you're not a control freak. It's just hard enough getting through the day, isn't it? It really is. I was amazed that I woke up this morning. I was just like, good work, good work. The bookkeeper comes at 9.30.

You're not going to be able to do that on your own. You don't want to get audited by the IRS for the fifth time. Really? Come on, Bamford. Get a move on. Comb the side of your head. One side at least. Have you been audited five times? Yeah, four times.

But when I was just a sole proprietor and received W-2s and 1099s, it seems like the IRS had a real hard time with that. I guess that's the red flag, the self-employed, disorganized person. This person gets a lot of paperwork, doesn't seem to manage it. I am not disorganized. Oh, really? I keep all my receipts in a bucket. You do?

Oh, God. Still? Yeah. I hated that part of being a young comic and having to deal when people tell you what you got to do. You got to keep them all. I'm like, what? And like I do like a week of envelopes and it just kind of drifted into like a bag of things. And then to sort of like, fuck it.

Fuck it. Let's just pick a number. And if they come after me, that's it. I'm doing a commencement speech for my alma mater. You are? The University of Minnesota College of Liberal Arts. And I just want to talk about money. That's all I want to do, which is so awful.

But then I was like, that is the one very important thing that has been about work. Is, hey, how much are you going to pay me and when's it going to happen? Is that the name of the speech? Yeah, that's exactly. That school is a good school? I hope so. I mean, I want to say that it is because, of course, how else would they, you know, it was rigorous. You graduated from there?

Yeah, I took six years to graduate from different universities. So I went to Bates College and I went to University of Edinburgh in Scotland. Thought about becoming Scottish. Yeah. The degree wasn't available? It was available. When you explained it to them? No, I want to become Scottish.

With all the things you people do. Yeah. Does that sound racist? Because it is. No. Then I decided that I, well, I didn't really decide. I got so depressed that I had to come home and went through some glorified treatment program. Depression in another country is the worst because you already feel alienated and weird and they don't even have the right cereal.

Or they're trying to give you the remedies for depression that they do in their culture. Like herbal. I just remember this one meditation class where we spent about 10 minutes discussing which herbal tea we'd want. I'm just like, oh, my God, I think I'm going to kill myself. I think for some people, I think. Whatever works. Whatever you believe works. Perhaps if you aren't truly depressed.

That's terrible. I heard that. No. You said that out loud. That's very judgmental. No, I think there are levels of depression and sometimes you need to kick it up a notch. Yeah. How are you doing?

I'm doing very well. Of course, I did have a cold brew about four hours ago. So talk to me in an hour. Did you get that cafe de leche? I didn't, but I got it at UCB because I'm taking classes at the UCB. Sunset. What? They have improv classes there. Have you heard? I'm familiar with the school at the UCB. You're taking improv classes? Yeah, my husband Scott Marvel Cassidy

was taking, he took improv 101 and 102 and he was having such a great time. I said, why can't I? And he said, you can. And so I signed up for 101. It's tons of fun. But you're

Maria Bamford. Who gives a shit? I give a shit. No's tons of fun. But you're Maria Bamford. Who gives a shit? I give a shit. No, nobody cares. Is that true? Oh, yeah. And there are tons of people who are on TV, who are YouTube stars, people who are in those classes. Yeah, I met another writer for Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

It was taking the one-on-one class. Wow. It really is just sort of a practical, almost self-help, motivational thing. Well, it's fun in that you can kind of takes me out of my brain about stand-up because I think I get a bit self-righteous. Well, and also you generally create the people you'd like to be talking to. Yeah, and I would like to be able to talk to be less afraid of what happens in the crowd because sometimes I still get freaked out if something happens in the crowd. It's like, oh no, this is wonderful that something's happening. What do you mean?

If somebody says something? Well, yes, if somebody says something or is loud. What do you do? I freeze up a little bit. Like I feel it in my knees. They kind of get little jiggly, jiggly, jiggly, jiggly.

This is my time. And I get, yeah, I get a little defensive, like a gorge rises. Or my gorge rises. I'm not sure of the use of that term. I've never heard it. Really?

Yeah, I like it. Okay, all right. I just let it go. A lot of times people say things in here and I just smile. And I go, I guess that's a thing. I'll just pretend like I know what that is. I appreciate that, Mark. Because I'm not exactly sure now that you're not certain, I'm not certain. Well, what do I know? You spent time in Scotland. It could be one of those weird,ky gorge rising well the thing is i feel like i want to vomit okay um and is what i'm trying to say and the and then i either say something where i get kind of defensive which i feel bad about because i just go oh i don't want to feel that way you want to do that comic

thing like hey you shut the fuck up yeah yeah but mine may be slightly more passive aggressive than that but it's not your time to talk but i think it just would be so much more interesting to actually be there with that person because that person's an individual and like here that's what they're particular i'm sure yes you're very good at it well i mean but yeah it's like naturally it's like not i don't sometimes you know you don't know what you're getting into like you know a lot of times in my crowds i don't get hostile hecklers yes but some people will add a little something yes and also and if i didn't hear it i'll be like wait what what what and then they'll say it again i'm like really is that why we're stopping the flow? And then, you know, you just have a discussion about it and you move through it.

And, you know, you have enough chops that you're going to make it funny. But, you know, I don't expect everything. I don't expect to be a gem. You know, if you want to improv with the crowd, realize you're the only professional in that equation. But they might be. I mean, sometimes there are a lot of comics in the crowd. Like, it depends on what city you go to. Sometimes there'll be a lot of comics in the crowd. Well, you don't think they're the ones chiming in, though.

Well, that may be true. Sometimes they say funny things. And that's the other thing, is like, if they say something funnier than you, you're just going to have to take the hit. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, just be humble. And thank God.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank God you've come. What a relief. At this terrible time. Yeah. Just when I needed you. You're not getting a cut because we had no prior agreement. No, you're not a show.

I didn't agree to anything. So what's happening? Yeah. What is happening? My Netflix special comes May 2nd. Now, did you do, the last one you did for your parents, did you do this alone this time or is there a crowd? The idea is, I loved the initial idea.

I had this friend who we met and she said, yeah, you said you're a comedian. She tells a story in front of people about how we met. Yeah. Every time. I first met you and I was like, she's like, she said she was a comedian. I was like, oh, okay,

good for you. Then I saw her, she said she was doing an open mic at a bookstore. So I went, I was like, hmm, oh,

oh, I see. I mean, she's kind of mumbling, but then I saw her at this like little theater show and I was like, she's doing,

I mean, she's gotten pretty good. Then I saw you at this and then I saw you on TV and i was like you're good and this is like you know five years ago or whatever you know and i'm like i just think that's so funny that the amount of people watching yeah is so important to how people think something is good or not right and uh so so anyways it starts out with just me by myself

talking in a mirror. And then it goes into me talking to my husband and my dogs. Then me talking to a park bench full of people, hot dog stand, bookstore, inside of a living room, theater, then mass theater, then the universe. How did you shoot the universe? The universe is on green screen. We went out into space, that's amazing it was a very high budget project and into space has like an endless budget they do it's like nasa they didn't argue with you at all get branson on the phone we'll do the first test flight up and we'll shoot this thing it'll be a first for everybody you know where there isn't stand-up comedy?

Space. Has never been done. Never been done. Wait a minute. You do those shows. Yes, I do. Everyone who pitches me a show that starts up in this neighborhood,

like no matter what the size, if it's a Dave's Chillin' and Grillin' or the Eagle Rock Community Center, they're like, Maria did it. That's why I won't. Yeah, no, it's a little. But Eagle Rock, that one's good. But you can still find yourself in a pickle. Well, the Eagle Rock Center, that one was very good.

No, I have no problem with it. I just I don't find I have the time. And if I need to do the stage time, I've really pulled away from most of the alt and micro rooms. I get it. Because if I'm in town, I'll just go to the comedy store and knock it out. Try to get some work done. I know it's exciting for me and maybe for people who run the show and the few people that are there if i go maybe but like a lot of times it doesn't turn out great no no i totally i get it uh because you've got to use

your time wisely and uh yes i used to go do that ramada do you remember that paul hughes had that show like it when i first got to la and i couldn't get any on anywhere else i used to go and it was terrible but it was like I built bits there. I don't know how. It wasn't with any help of the audience. It wasn't with him being helpful at all. Yeah. Well, that's the thing.

The nice thing as you get further in comedy is you can avoid failure far more easily. Yeah. Yeah. You want to fail on a bigger scale. Yeah. Like you get hired for something and then you go and somebody goes, oh, I hired you because I'm a fan. Uh-oh.

You should have asked the 1,000 people that you are going to have this conference. Who don't know me in that room. Oh, my God. I went down so fast. Where? A conference thing? It was a conference for psychologists and therapists. Was it in the morning?

No, it was evening. It was for this magazine called The Psychotherapy Networker, which I actually enjoy that magazine. I've read it before in therapist's office. Delightful. Yeah. Turns out when mental health professionals hear about someone joking about suicide, they are taking it seriously and they are not, you know, this isn't their go to for relaxation. Right. So you just created a lot of concern. A lot of concern and confusion.

And so, I mean, it's so sad when you see somebody who you admire, like there's this one couples, famous couples therapist called his name, Harville Hendricks. Yeah. He was in the, you know, one of the front rows. Yeah. He was just like, just looking like, oh no, you sad thing. You're in trouble. I will never read your book. I will never fill out any of your graphs again, my friend.

Well, that's, that's the worst look on on an audience face it's like disdain is better than concern yeah yeah concern is okay yeah i don't mind concern and it bothers me like it's like wait no this is funny i know it's funny is it did i lose the funny part like you know because when when you speak from your heart you you know like it's just it's a very fine it's a very it's a very thin line between just sad horribleness and funny so if you're not tuned just right they're gonna see right through it and they're like oh that person's in trouble well they're a part of it so it's not always up to at least i feel like it's not always up to me how the show goes. Yeah. Because if they're putting their part into it and they're not, don't like, this is a perfect one-on-one example. I was doing a joke with my friend Amy and her brother said, oh, I want to listen.

Halfway through the joke, he just walks away. He just, you know, and it's one of my jokes where I'm going back and forth in characters and it goes like this. And he just walks out. He just you know and it's one of my jokes where I'm going back and forth in characters and it goes like and he just walks out of the room. Which is so awesome. You know Couldn't sit it out.

Couldn't even sit it out. I'm like this is a one minute bit and you wanted to listen and then no too painful. I get it. I get it.

Wrap it up. So this special then, does it work linearly? Or is it a series of segments then? Segments. Yeah, so it's going in and out. You only see each joke once, but it's kind of, yeah, it flows throughout. And there's some parts where I'm selling merch. All the merch sales go to the adult psychiatric ward in my hometown, Miller-Dwan Foundation.

And because that's where my mom went and she worked there and then she went there. Nice. That must have been a weird homecoming for everyone oh my goodness so hilarious she was trying to well she was in a manic phase so she was trying to counsel everybody yeah oh while she was a patient so great uh uh did she know she was there for the reason she was there uh yeah she was pissed yeah she was like no which i haven't i i had hypomania but what that was just sort of an agitated depression where i just really wanted to kill myself and had with a with a vigor with a vigor and agitation i had previously not known um but uh yeah so we sell merch and uh

it's uh it's oh and my husband has created a ceramic, not a ceramic, a paper mache dog that is a pug that is the single thing that binds all the things together. So it's always in the back. The paper mache dog. Dog. Which is a pug. That's the through line. A through line. Because you're a pug person.

It's our dog, Arnold. Yeah. How many pugs you got now? Well, we only got one because we always have old pugs. They all pass on. They all die. It's like, oh, no. Oh, no.

It's coming. They're getting that thing where they can't breathe. Oh. But so now we got a pug, Betty, who's doing real good. Yeah. She's about 10. And then we got a chihuahua named Jackie Onassis that we just picked up. Are they shelter cats?

Oh, yeah. I mean dogs. Shelter doggy. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah. And how's the family? They're very good.

Everybody's still alive. And that's delightful. But yeah, life is very good, which is often, I don't know if that's as funny. I do have a new joke. Yeah. We're out of time. No, go ahead. Okay.

I was at the funeral of a comedian who had committed suicide, and this isn't where it's funny. It was very sad. Afterwards, I overheard someone's conversation saying, you know, I think it's just one of the most selfish things you can do, committing suicide. I mean, he had two kids and his wife was just so beautiful. And I thought, you know what, I think blaming someone for their own death, I think that's the single most selfish. Wait a minute, scratch that. Writing down the premise for this joke at the. Wait, hold on.

Scratch that. Taking two different circumstances. That did happen. I was at the funeral of a comedian who committed suicide. I also did overhear a friend saying suicide is selfish. Putting those together in a fictional narrative so as to show you that I'm against stigma. That is truly the single most selfish thing you could do. I mean, he had children and a beautiful wife. Sometimes that seems important to mention how gorgeous his wife was.

His gorgeous wife. God, so pretty. How's that going over? Oh, he's going over great. I mean, my crowds are all mental health people. That's a pretty broad description. They're mental health on both sides of the spectrum. Yeah, exactly.

No, I get the psychiatric nurses. And their patients. And their patients. And sometimes they're also double, double winners. We all are. Yeah. So, I'm, I really enjoy. You're doing a great service by being publicly crazy and handling it.

Or is it my shtick? Oh, I don't know. Do you have a problem with the word crazy? Well, I think if it's used, I mean, just like any word, if it's used in a way to kind of punch down at somebody. Right. Like when they say, women are crazy or something. It's like, do you mean she is actually, you know, what is the diagnosis? Is she just mad at you?

No, she like speaks her mind. Yeah. It's like, oh, okay. Well, that's a little different than crazy. That's why I've been like crazy. I know what you mean. Yeah, I don't mind. I love words.

Let's use them all. Well, I'm happy that you're happy and things are going well. It's going great and not in a show business way, just in a regular life way. Oh, congratulations on the regular life thing. Thank you very much. And the special. And to you, congratulations. Thank you so much for having me on this program.

Yes, you're very welcome. Maria Bamford God, I'm so happy she's on the planet and saying things and doing things. So look, now we got more funny coming. John Michael Higgins is here. And i've always thought he's very funny i've always thought he was um hilarious you'd see him on the christopher guest movies and i didn't after doing a little research i realized he played david letterman and that jay leno david letter movie that caused him some trouble but he's always fucking brilliant in those christopher guest

movies and i always kind of wanted to talk to him and it turns out he lives down the street from me and on top of that it turns out we have this weird connection it's very bizarre and I it was completely unknown and it unfolded in the conversation so look forward to that spoiler alert something exciting happens in the middle because we didn't know something about each other he's also on the new tina fey produced show great news airing tuesday nights with back to back episodes on nbc all right so this is me and my neighbor john michael higgins enjoying some laughs and some weird connections Michael, you go by Michael. I go by Michael, but, you know, I'm John Michael.

Well, let's talk. Let me make sure I know what we're supposed to be plugging. This show, I have a show on NBC, which is. Are you reading the paper? I have to figure out what show I'm on. It's not the Dodgers. It's called Great News. It's on NBC.

It starts this month. Now, Great News. Let's start there and go back. Okay. Because I didn't get a screener. I don't know what it is. Is it about a new show? It's a single-camera, half-hour comedy about a...

The premise is it's a mother-daughter show where it's Andrea Martin as the mother. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Br it's Andrea Martin as the mother. Oh, that's great. Yeah, Brie Gehlen as the daughter. And it's basically, it's like take your mom to work day, but she stays. She becomes an intern at the station. And I'm the on-air talent. I'm the sort of blowhard Bill O'Reilly type. Oh, really?

So you're an ideological guy? No, no, no. It's not political. It's just a person. You know, I'm old school. I mean, I'm a stuffed shirt kind of bloviating. So you got the mom at work as an intern. You got the daughter who's your assistant or your-

Yeah, trying to get noticed by me. Okay. And then you got a program manager, I imagine. Yeah, there's that. A whole cast of goofy people. Yes, that's right. And cameras running around. Cameras. That's right. And it's produced by Tina people. Yes, that's right. And cameras running around.

That's right. And it's produced by Tina Fey. Oh, that's great. It's from her company, and she's actively producing. Who created it? Tracy Wigfield, who was a writer for 30 Rock and for SNL, I believe. Oh, that seems like a good pedigree, as they say in the game. Yes, it is.

I don't know what I'm doing there sometimes, but yes. What are you talking about? You've been in everything. You're one of those guys who I know from a few things, and then I look at the resume and I'm like, oh, that was him? Yeah, I know. What are you doing? It's a hundred years. I'm a thousand years old.

Dude, but you work your ass off. I do. I have to. I have children. I can't. You know, you may have noticed I'm not above the title on all those things you're looking at on the screen there. You know, I'm the guy who comes in from the left, does a fancy scene, and leaves and gets

a lot of laughs. Those are the guys that people remember, Michael. Yes, they do remember, but they don't remember what you just did, which was my name. Yeah. That's, you know, everybody, you know, I stopped 12 times at the Vaughn's, our vaughn's yeah over here and they're like who are you're the you're the guy yeah and then you don't want to jump in because they might not know you from television that's where i'm at happens all the time really like aren't you i know you no no and then and then you reel off your resume and nothing no just not one no no no no i have. I do not. I cannot list a single credit now.

You can't. I'm not allowed. I've got a hundred of them. I don't know what they are. I can't remember half of them. And you live down the street from me. That's nice to know. I do.

And now maybe I'll see you around the neighborhood. I'll see you at the Vons. You remember when they made the Vons a nice Vons? Yes. We were, we were, my wife and I were flummoxed. We didn't know what to do. We thought, again, that the neighborhood was kicking us out. Once again, we had to move on because the Vons had fancy flooring.

Sure, and a Starbucks in it. Starbucks and organic produce and stuff like that. Yeah, everything's changing. I don't know if it's good. I have this feeling that, like, I've been here since 2004. You came in 2001 yeah i um i always get that i like i didn't i didn't move here i didn't know how to buy a house i mean i was driving some other kid up here to rent a house i didn't know where i was it seemed

far away from where i was renting over there by uh the gelsons on franklin yeah that right that's where everyone from new york ends up first all people have rented a place near gelsons on renting over there by the Gelson's on Franklin. Yeah, that. Right? That's where everyone from New York ends up first. All people have rented a place near Gelson's on Franklin. That's your starter area. All people in show business. From New York or the East Coast. In an apartment near the Gelson's on Franklin. Right, because you're like, you can walk.

That's it, this idea. That's like a neighborhood. Right. No. No. But then I come over here and I see this house for sale and I had a TV deal. So I'm like, maybe it's time I figured out how to buy a house. I had no idea where I was or anything else.

And then now there's the gentrification thing. And there's that you clearly the neighborhoods change. And sometimes I wonder, it's like, are we hated? I know. I, I,

well now, you know, it's such an, it's such an onslaught now. The, the, it's a good word. I wish I knew what it meant.

I don't know what I mean. I think there's a C in it. So, uh, the, um, the, you know, down on York, Yeah. It's a good word. I wish I knew what it meant. I don't know what I mean. Okay. I think there's a C in it somewhere. The, you know, down on York, which is like Hipsterville with people with twirly mustaches. Right. But the weird thing is, I don't, like, I'm happy that there's new businesses going, but I don't, I never wanted that. I didn't ask for that.

I didn't either. Somehow, I feel like I get blamed for it sometimes. I think you are because you have a beard right now. Well, this a part michael i'm i'm this is for a part is it okay is it uh william henry harrison or is it james garfield james garfield yeah i get assassinated yeah yeah it's a sad sad short film did you see that don't sell yourself short maybe it's maybe it's heartwarming and majestic yeah think about that so where do you come from like where like you know uh i also came from new york and had no idea how to buy before that uh navy family um so mostly dc but i lived almost everywhere navy

family yes sir so was your dad a big shot uh he was a high-ranking officer eventually, yeah. In D.C., he worked as a naval officer, not as a political appointment, but as a naval officer in the penthouse and in the White House. In the Pentagon? Pentagon, sorry. The penthouse. The penthouse. He wishes. Under what administration?

Ford and Carter. Interesting. So you grew up in a military family. How many kids in the family? Four. There's four of you, and you're moving around. Did you do Germany? Yep. You did Germany.

Yes, Westchester, Stuttgart, Germany. Patch barracks. If you're out there, you patch barracks, people. Patch barracks? Patch barracks. How old were you when you were there? That would be third and fourth grade. So you remember it? Oh, totally. Remember it like it was yesterday. So you remember it?

Oh, totally. Remember it like it was yesterday. It's so wild, isn't it? Like, I can't imagine what it's like to be born and have the first couple years of your life in America, and then you're in Germany. Was it kind of mind-blowing? Was it a big change for you? Is that where it all started? Well, you know, it's interesting, because as kids, I think of Germany, and it was just sort of like, it was like, you know, I didn't really speak German, but I spoke what they say, Spielplatz Deutsch, which is what you need to get around on the playground.

You just did it to me. I know. See? See, that's three words now I've taught you. And you used Anschluss. All of them with Cs in them. Anschluss is another. Anschluss is a Nazi word, right? I don't know.

You used it for New York. New York. That's right. I shouldn't have used. I don't mean to imply that the people on york boulevard are nazis hipster fascism uh no you know so i was a kid living there and it was just all fun you know i was just having a good i lived on the base oh right so you weren't but then we moved off the base yeah and i lived on the as we say the economy right when you go and live in the actual country that you're living in, outside of the walls, you're living, quote, on the economy, which means you're using Deutschmarks instead of

dollars. Oh, on the base you use dollars? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. Oh, but it sounds, because I keep picturing it, that feeling that I have even now when I go to another country, I'm immediately alienated. I don't like, it's like,

I've never seen these crackers before. Yeah, right. And I'm like, what is happening? They don't have any of my cereals. Not one. No, but on the base, you see, what they have is the PX, which is where they recreate

the American supermarket for you. This is in the early 70s for me. And it's pretty primitive though. Right. So what black market items on the base become things like a sugar daddy. Oh, yeah. I got a sugar daddy. My dad went back to the States.

He came back. I made him my six sugar daddies. Then you bring them to school. You sell them for like 10 bucks a piece. Oh, really? You were dealing sugar daddies? Sure. Anybody with black market stuff.

Certain things. Yeah. They only had two flavors of ice cream. And every now and then the base would get- At the PX. At the PX. Yeah. Vanilla and chocolate. Right. Every now and then there base would get- At the PX. At the PX. Vanilla and chocolate.

Every now and then there'd be like butter pecan because some accident was made in the line of supply. The supply line. And then suddenly there was butter pecan. Not kidding. A line out the door, stretching all the way back down- Deprived kids.

Down to the enlisted man's barracks. These poor suckers. So you lived there for two years? Yes. Yes. And then you come back? And then I came back and God knows, we moved every year. I don't even know where I was.

Why is that? You know what? I don't, I still don't know the answer to that question. I've asked my dad and, you know, if I follow his career, it's like, well, I had to go teach at the officer's college in Athens for a year. And then they sent me off to- Yeah. And then I'm imitating my father.

Terrible imitation. You can do it. Yes, I'm not doing well. And then I had to go set up a communication system in Boston. And then they just move him around. Is he still around? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Lives in D.C. Most of my childhood was spent in in dc somehow wow i you know i don't that's i i am in awe of that place i'm surprised that it's as moving as it is really because i go there so infrequently and when you go out on the on the mall you're like holy shit i'm a sucker for i really am free museums i know yeah music big ones beautiful ones you know yeah i think trump's gonna make them stores. Sure. Why let all that potential profit go to waste? I mean, you know, what's the point?

It's not America. Auction them off. Auction them off. People will buy them. We'll make them restaurants. Absolutely. We'll make them bungalows for the new hotel. The Smithsonian will just be a high-end room. A high-end room with big gold letters.

Smithsonian. Yeah, Trump's Smithsonian. Well, he did. Smithsonian Trump. Basically, he took the, he's leased out the old post office. Yeah. Gorgeous. I mean, it's spectacular.

I don't remember that building. It is spectacular. Yeah. It's fantastic. One of the best buildings in Washington. That's saying something. Yeah. Have you been there?

Sure. Since he- Not since the, no, I'm not going to that hotel. No. So when did, now, it sounds like you got along okay with your dad. He wasn't. Very well. I, you know, I guess the confusing thing about my past was that I was, I was a child actor.

So everywhere I went, I worked on the local stage. I didn't, I didn't know that. So you're a theatrical child. Theatrical child. I was, I. Not like a kid that we all knew from a TV show. No. Not Eddie Munster or anything like that. Nothing like that. I was a... Not like a kid that we all knew from a TV show we liked.

Not Eddie Munster or anything like that. Nothing like that. No. Didn't make that break. No one liked me. It was... So, no, I was a theater actor and was... I am.

Yeah. Basically, that's what this machine does best. Theater. Yeah, and I was not a... I didn't do film or television until my 30s. How did that start, though, to be a child actor in a military family? Yeah.

I mean, are you the oldest kid? Youngest. Really? Yeah. How old's your dad, like 100? 112 now. Wow, that's impressive. He's 112 years old.

I'm getting him some Depends adult undergarments. That's nice of you. No, it's terrible. No, he's not that old. He's 85 or something. Okay. Maybe 84. All right, so you're the youngest one?

I am. And how do you... I don't understand how you start acting in a military family. I mean, you go to a new place. It isn't easy. Yeah. It isn't... I didn't say it was easy.

Right. What, did you start singing songs? I picture you as a... Pretty much. I picture you as a musical theater guy. I picture you as a musical theater guy. I did a lot of musical theater in the old days. Oh, you had to. I did.

But how old were you when you started? Like 12, 11. Okay. And basically, I hooked up with a local theater company that, this was in D.C., and worked there on and off for my entire childhood and my entire teenagerhood. Yeah? Then I ended up teaching there. Which place?

This was what was then called Street 70, became the Roundhouse Theater, which I think still exists in D.C. And I worked all the theaters in D.C. Did you know Zinnemann? Joy Zinnemann. Joy Zinnemann. Ran the studio theater.

Yeah. No, doesn't anymore. She retired, but... I just interviewed her son. Jason. Yeah. Yeah, critic. Yeah.

Right. It just happened. Yeah. Great guy, smart guy. Totally. I didn't want to like him, but I learned a lot about his mom, who was a real... Big figure. Big figure, but she started from scratch.

Yes. And was taking chances with new plays and things. Absolutely, yes. She was a real, yeah. And my, full circle, my father, who you're so interested in, is on the board of the studio theater. Ah. Helps them to do their thing.

Okay, so what did the other siblings end up doing? My brother, Patrick Patrick went into politics. He was a DNC guy for a while, and now he works for the Canadian government as a liaison for the American issues. Oh. Salmon, timber. He's going to get busy. Yeah, exactly. He is.

Just when he's burning out, he's like, I can't stand it anymore. I can't do it. Now we can't move salmon. They're not letting salmon go downstream. There's no more timber going. Yeah. And my sister lives in D.C. She's a graphic artist, and the other one is a phys ed.

No one went in the military? Nope. That's something. What about mom? Mom lives in Portland, Oregon. Not together. Not together. Everyone had their 1976 divorce. I know you did I wasn't I was

13 13 you were what I was I was exactly what I was the same age yeah yeah when did your parents have the 76 divorce no no they waited really oh yeah they waited not the 83 divorce I know it was like um god when was it it was I was way out of college. 89? It was probably, no, it was later than that even. 89, maybe 90, somewhere in there. Good Lord. Yeah, they hung in there for no real reason. They're like the Japanese soldier on the island that they find with a gun.

Still married. Here's another, here's a married couple that still thinks it's okay to be married. They're crazy. Where were you and where were you at the bicentennial oh man so all right so see she's in portland that's nice yeah it's easy to go out there my brother lives in seattle too so i love it up there oh it's awesome why are we here i don't know you know i ask myself that do you every day you know i came from new york though that was my career was I left D.C., went to New York,

and was a stage actor in New York for 20 years or something. Well, tell me some of the shows that you were, like New York Theater at that time was pretty active. Yeah, yeah. And still what was left of real radical theater was still there, right? Sure, yeah. I did a lot of things there. I was an enormous amount of regional theater,

so I'd be always on the road doing Shakespeare and every big theater in the country or whatever. Yeah. I played those places. Yeah. Like dinner theaters? No, no, no. These were Lord A, my friend.

I'm sorry. You don't know what that means, do you? No, it means that they were doing real shows in real cities with real production. That's right, with subscribers who were disapproving of the bad words and that sort of thing. Oh, yeah, right. But there was always a guaranteed audience. Absolutely.

There they sat. And no one was eating during it. No, it was all very dutiful and very high-end. So the agent that got you, how does that work? You go from DC, did you go to school for it? Well, it's a weird, it's a, I backed in. This actually might interest you. I've been interested the whole time, Michael.

Have you? Yeah. Do I seem disinterested? No, not at all. Okay. Not at all. Because you're one of these guys, you know, we, most of us know you from Christopher Guest movies.

You're always hilarious. But to a lot of us, if we don't put it together yeah you know we think you just appeared in these christopher guest movies i know it's true you're right it's it it's a everybody's got a crazy road right you you know that now definitely everyone says the craziest road but you know but if people sort of back if you really look at your career you're like oh yeah you know he played letterman on that fucking show yes the. The Late Shift. The Late Shift. Right. Yeah, HBO thing.

We'll talk about that in a minute. So you backed into it. What are you telling me about that? Well, here's what happened, at least for me, if I can trace myself to the Christopher Guest movie. It would be I was a theater actor, and I was eventually a New York theater actor. So I did a lot of plays all over the country and major. Regional theaters. Regional theaters.

High-end ones. Yeah. Subscription houses. That type of stuff. Lord A. Lord A, exactly. Well, B maybe. How do you integrate yourself into Broadway?

You must have been fucking great at stage. Well, I'll tell you what happened was I was a theater actor my whole childhood. Yeah. And I was actually a very serious student. And I knew that when I went to college, I really didn't want to do theater because I'd been doing it since I was 12. And I was really interested in other things. Why not learn something that might be practical? Yeah, like English literature.

That's it. That's what I did. Not. But that was what you did? That's what I was. So you could teach at any time. Well, one presumes. I don't know if any students will show up.

Of course they will. Active Shakespeare, you call it. Hands on. That's it. All hands on. So you get a degree in English? I am. I have a degree.

Amherst. Oh, you went out there. Amherst College, yes. Out there with the four schools out there. That's right. The Happy, no, not the Happy. That's in Pennsylvania. What is it?

No, Hampshire? Is Hampshire down the street? Hampshire College, yes. And then Mount Holyoke? Smith, Mount Holyoke. That's in Pennsylvania. What is it? No, Hampshire? Is Hampshire down the street? Hampshire College, yes. And then Mount Holyoke? Smith, Mount Holyoke. That's it. And Zumaft, UMass Amherst. Yes.

And that's all that happens there. You just go there. People get fucked up. That's right. They fuck each other. That's it. They learn who they are. And then there's Hampshire, which no one really knows.

And then there's Hampshire, which you start that way, and then you keep going for four years. You major in Frisbee. So what happened in Amherst, though, was about halfway through, I did a, there was HBO was putting out this show, which was hosted by, fasten your seatbelts, Joe Piscopo. Oh, wait, the Young Comedian special? Yes. So Joe Piscopo was hosting this. Wait, wait. I auditioned for this. You did? Come on.

From where? Where were you? Oh, was it BU? Yes, we had a BU guy in there. I know. Oh my God. We had a prop comic. HBO comedy on campus. Yes, that's it. Come on.

I was on it. That's crazy. That was me. Partly me. What did you was on it. That's crazy. That was me. Partly me. What did you do on it? It was weird. I'm not a comedian. I'm not a stand-up comedian.

Right. What happened was, at Amherst, I wrote the reviews, meaning V-U-E, meaning sketches and songs, and we would perform them, whatever. But it was not in the theater department. It was like the- Yeah, sort of like- Extracurricular. Yeah, guerrilla type. Fun, variety show you know, whatever. But it was like not in the theater department. It was like the extracurricular. Yeah, guerrilla type. Fun, variety show.

Yeah, right. That sort of stuff. So somebody's parent was an HBO person or something or executive somewhere, and they came to see the show because their kid was in it, and they saw me, and they said, we want you to try out for this thing uh campus comedy yeah it was called hbo's campus comedy yeah and um uh i was like

yeah i'm not a stand-up comedian it's not really my gig and you know i was literally playing hamlet at the time at hammers that's really who what i was about how are you with shakespeare good oh yeah i've done a ton of shakespeare yeah, you like it? Oh, love it. Oh God. There's nothing like it. It's like riding on a hot rod. You love it. It's fantastic.

Oh, it's nice. So anyway, auditioned for this thing and I put together, you know, it was like party tricks that I would do occasionally. Jerry Lewis used to do this routine, which I was very influenced by people like Jerry Lewis. And great routine where it was in The Aaron Boy. Yeah.

Where he comes into an empty office and he sits down and he's cleaning. Yeah. And everybody's gone. And he sits down at this big boardroom table. And then this really awesome, like, big Count Basie thing starts churning up behind him while he's looking around. And he sits and then he plunks his ass in the chair. And then he starts opening his mouth like he's the big boss and he's got a cigar. He's not saying anything, but the Count Basie music is playing through him and he's got every tick of the music.

So it really looks like he's talking, but music's coming out. Oh, right. So I used to do that for kicks, but I used different types of music. I used a deep purple, like big guitar solo, Richie Blackmore, going bonkers on, you know,

big bluesy thing. Yeah, yeah. And I did that, and I would do it at a party. I was like, watch this, and I would get up, and I'd pretend to be a stand-up comedian,

but all the thing that was coming out of my mouth was Richie Blackmore, and I structured it so it looked like that was the end of that joke, and I got a laugh, and that was the end of that joke and I got a laugh

and that was the end of Jack Doak and I didn't and now I'm getting a little angry and now I'm dealing with a heckler. So that was the routine. Right. And I did a couple of other things along those lines.

In other words, I'm not standing there telling jokes because I didn't feel comfortable doing that. But you had this big physical bit. Yeah, it was like a thing. Right. They dug it mostly probably because it wasn't like the other...

Guys talking. It was a nice break in the thing. So we have a prop guy. Yeah. And we have this weird act that Higgins does. And you know, that's kind of. Yeah. It was like a mime act mostly.

It was like. I can't believe you got on that. I can't either. I remember what it was. What it was, was. Yeah. We auditioned in a room for some people. Me and my friend, Steve Brill, who's a director now.

Do you know Steve? Yeah. All right. So we did a comedy team thing. We wrote it. You know, we had a few bits. room for some people me and my friend steve brill who's a director now do you know steve yeah all right so we did a comedy team thing we we wrote it you know it was we had a few bits they they auditioned us and they liked us and they said we want to see you at a comedy club and we'd never done a comedy club so they put us on at the comedy connection in boston and we bombed so bad so bad and they're like that is not going to happen and then we went to the taping because i i but i don't remember you ah the taping was at tufts yes university right and bill shefft bill shefft yes yes he was there he hosted the warm-up he warmed up and started the show

that's right that's right and piscopo was the host yeah and bill shefft was like helping us all we would we went to catch and we did our stuff and he would sort of hone and edit and stuff like that. I think John Innes and Joe Murphy got on. They did it like a weird almost Python-esque team thing. I remember that. Yes. Yes. John Innes went on to do Cross Comedy, which became Mr. Show.

He was David Cross's best friend. Yes. Of course. Yep. So, and that's so weird. Isn't that crazy? I had no idea. No idea.

And we're connected in this way. You started your career. I started my career, but it took a long time from there. But that was the first time I did stand-up because of that thing. You were doing a sketch with your partner, right? It was like- Well, that's right. But we saw it as a stand-up comedy team.

So what ultimately happened with that relationship is because of the woman who was involved with that thing, who was connected to SNL, we went to my grandmother's house in New Jersey, wrote a bunch of sketches for SNL, sent them in, nothing happened. And then he graduated from BU. I had another year. And we both started doing comedy separately. And I started doing comedy like probably my junior or senior year of college. But I didn't stick with it. But that's when, because of that, I started doing stand- my probably my junior or senior year college but i didn't stick with it but that's when because of that i started doing stand-up good lord that was my first time on a stand-up stage it was my first and last it really was i here what happened was the piscopo's manager

at the time yeah was rawlinson joffey and they had the most they had a tiny list and it was the most famous people alive sure woody allen woody allen david letterman robin williams dick cavett back crystal deck dick cavett but it was rollins joffey they had a management arm and they were handling these yeah yeah of course this guy's you know who worked for them george manos was my manager from that he was at the taping of that show. Yeah. Because of Piscopo. Right. And that's how you got him?

Yeah. And he approached me afterward and he said, hey, let's get something going. And I said to him, sounds great, but I haven't finished college. I'm going to finish college. That rung all of his bells. Now he's madly in love with me.

Right. And he waited it out. And I went back to college and I finished my two years. And then I showed him and he was there waiting for me he was like come on down i went down to new york and then unfortunately what they they knew how to make stand-up comedians and i uh this is the you know folly of youth i was it was i didn't want to be a stand-up comedian i wanted i was an actor i wanted to be an actor that's what i was good at you know so you sat down with rollins he's like you got to go all out. Yeah.

You got to. Kid. Literally. The cigar, the whole thing. Yeah. It was probably Danny Rose. And he's like, we're going to work you out in the clubs. We're going to.

Yeah. And I was like, no, not doing it. Yeah. But I was still their client. I was doing acting work, but they were, I don't know. It was nice to have me as a client because I was. But you were with them for a while? Yeah.

Long time. I blew a meeting with Jack Rollins years later. Oh, really? Yeah, this is another thing we have in common. Yeah, he wanted to get back in the game a little more actively, and he was working with another guy who owned a club a little bit. I mean, there was this idea, and this guy, Kerry Hoffman, who owns Stand Up New York, who never really liked me, but for some reason thought I would be the guy

that Jack could get his feet wet again with the hands-on thing so he's they were going to co-manage me or something so he sets me up a meeting with the two of them with rollins and hoffman and i show up at the place early than than hoffman does so it's just me and jack rollins and you know he's like in his 80s at that point sure you know and he's just sitting there so i said uh all right well what can you do for me and then like he just clammed up carrie hoffman shows up and the whole thing goes south and he calls me up and goes you fucked up and i'm like what are you talking about he's like you don't ask jack rollins what he can do for you yeah and that was that i don't think it was a mistake but it was nice to meet him did you sounds like Sounds like it was great, Mark. Yeah, it was terrific. Really awesome. Did you go up to the office on 5th? No, I met him at a fucking restaurant.

Oh, okay. Yeah. But you were with him for a while. I was. How long? I think they were always frustrated, though. It was probably six or seven years. Maybe more.

Maybe more. Because I was just in that. For some reason, they were managing me. It was a mystery. Because George liked me, this guy. He was a great, great guy. He was a big influence in my life. He's dead now, but George Manos was one of Jack's managers.

How did he influence you as an actor? He was just, you know what? He was like a good manager. He held my hand when I was just a young idiot trying to get through in New York, which is tough. And what were you doing there at that time, once you got out of college? All theater. And I was doing a lot of off-Broadway, regional, and Were you working with people that made an impact on you?

Like, as actors and stuff? Did you work with heroes, or did you have those moments where you're like, I can't believe this is happening? Sure, many times. I think you know, one of my big moments was a Broadway show I did called La Bette. Yeah.

And it was really interesting because it was almost a deal breaker. I almost quit. Oh, really? Quit it. Quit the whole thing. Why? Quit acting? Fuck it.

All of it. I'm going to go be an English teacher. Hang it up. Yeah. English teacher. Join the service. Join the service. Joseph Fuck it. All of it. I'm going to go be an English teacher. Hang it up. Yeah. English teacher. Join the service. Joseph Conrad. That's it.

And because it was so an egregious, it was just an egregious situation where we had this play, which was clearly brilliant. Whose play was it? It was called La Bette. It was by David Herson, H-I-R-S-O-N. Yeah. was it it was called la bette it was by rich david herson which i r s o n yeah and it uh and the critics shut it down the new york times critics shut it down and and um no one else did they were all over the moon about it and um and uh it just seemed like such like i got i got there i got all the way to broadway yeah this happened was like, well, it's not a meritocracy and it's not fair.

And, you know, these are things that young people learn. And I learned it. I've said those things. I say those things to people now. I said it this morning. Yeah. I'm 54 years old. Just turned, right?

Yeah. February. Anyway. just turned right yeah february um anyway so that but that said it was a very big moment in my yeah in my life and anyway not sure shortly after that it was actually the letterman thing i was i was a working actor i was having a good time good career yeah and they couldn't find anyone to play david letter. But you'd done some TV before that. A little bit. A little bit.

You know, things that were done in New York, which was at the time, it was like, you know. Not much. Yeah. It was like Miami Vice. I did one of those. I was a criminal on that, wearing a silly suit with shoulder pads. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Whatever they cast there i did it was a guest star or whatever um but i was certainly not the star of any show so this is your break the late shift yeah they came into town because they couldn't get uh anyone here to do i guess because it was too scary letterman's was at the time a very prominent powerful figure on tv every single night and he didn't condone the book. No one wanted to piss him off.

It was like poor Mike Chiklis in the Belushi movie. Totally. I talked to him about it. But you had to take it. I did because look at me. Who am I to turn this down? Right. Did you know it was loaded?

Yeah. I knew it was a loaded gun. And when the bullet was in one of the chambers, I didn't know which one. And I just jumped on board and started pulling the trigger. You know what I mean? And the job itself was fine. It was very interesting. How was that other guy?

Who was the other guy? Dan Roebuck played Jay Wann. Yeah, he was in that, where was he? He was in River's Edge, wasn't he? Yes, that's right. He's around. He and I worked together a couple of times since then. So what happens? where was he? He was in River's Edge, wasn't he? Yes, that's right. Yeah, he's around. He and I worked together a couple of times

since then. So what happens? Well, I do the gig. It's tricky, you know? Although, you know what?

I have to say, having spent a lot of time in the theater, there's very few problems that I haven't been confronted with as an actor. I mean, since I'm 12 years old,

I'm doing four or five plays a year in front of audiences constantly. Yeah. All the way up to this point. I've done a lot of learning curves. Yeah. There's very few things that are going to surprise me.

And playing a famous person is one. I've played Teddy Roosevelt. I've played all these, you know, whoever. I've never played a living famous person. Who you could compare my performance to his by turning the dial on your television back and forth right it's like that's not what the a vowel sounds like right you know yeah um so i knew to ignore that i knew two things one was don't imitate them because all that does is show the differences yeah and this you, I learned by being on stage.

It's why puppet shows work. The audience has to go into a suspension of their own thoughts about the character and they have to buy yours. They have to let go of the comparison. They have to let go of all their thing on him and buy your version and then you tell the story in their face.

But how does that help you as an actor? I mean, you can't control that that you can't control it all what you can do yeah is to stop chasing everyone else's picture of him right it's a fine line between just doing a sort of you know shallow impression versus you know embodying yeah the character and this is the thing is that the the script was a dramatic script. It was not a comedy. It was a drama. Yeah.

If you go and look at it, I don't have one single joke in that thing. It's just, I want this. Here's the problem. I'm not getting it. That's the drama. I remember you did a good job with it. Oh, thank you. And how'd they gap your teeth?

That was the only thing. I got lucky because Dan, you know, he got all these appliances that put on him. And I actually talked them out of it. I don't know how, who was I? I just said, you know what? Don't give me anything. Just give me the teeth and, you know, we'll fiddle with the hair a little bit. Yeah.

And that was it. Yeah. And so, because, again. Well, you look enough like him in a way. Well, I suppose, but it's like, I just knew that if I start chasing him too much, the audience won't buy it. Uh-huh. They want to be told a story. And honestly, you know, that's why a paper bag puppet works. A paper bag puppet doesn't look like anything but a paper bag.

But you can be hanging on every word if it's done well. So this is the first day of your acting class. Look, you're never going to be as good as a paper bag puppet. You'll never get there. You'll never get there. That's our goal. Try to get to just a bag on the hand. Look at this.

Who's going to beat this? I'm dying. Mother, I always loved you. And then you crunched the back. Get there. How do we get there? So anyway. How was it received?

Well, this was the weird part is that the job itself was tricky because I had to, it was a bit of a trick. It was a standing backflip. I had to imitate a famous person who was alive and well and criticizing me every night on his own show yeah was he yeah oh oh now here's i remember that part and i see it's all different yeah so it's hard oh i see it's a situation it's a situation a national situation it was a national situation. And that I didn't know anything about. How to deal with that? Zero, 100% zero on that. It must have just killed you. Killed me.

Oh. So you sat there watching Letterman just taking the hits. I tried not to watch. How long did it go on for? Too long. So I guess he didn't have you on the show to promote the movie? Oh, that's a whole other story. That's two more podcasts.

Well, we got time. No, no, I'm not doing it. I can't do it. What can't you do? It's just, it's, it's, it's, he did invite me on the show. For that? I was brought to the show. I was in the dressing room.

Mm-hmm. And maybe because he had been talked into it eventually. Right. Be a good sport. Yes. HBO and they had been flirting with it for a long time, getting me on. He didn't want to.

I didn't blame him. I didn't particularly want to. Yeah. But the show itself was becoming, the movie itself was becoming a bit of a thing in the media, and then everybody decided, you know what? It's probably a good idea.

Let's do this. Have the guy on. We'll script it. And so, you know what it's probably a good idea let's do this have the guy we'll script it and then see you know they assured me this is nothing's gonna happen you know you be self-effacing he'll be self-effacing everybody's gonna get off fine yeah i go there and you know after a lot months of like going back and forth doing and not doing all this stuff and i'm out on the show and the dressing, and he bumps me. Yeah. And that was that. He wins.

Yeah. Now, in your mind, how do you frame that? That was like a lesson? He was teaching you a lesson, or was it a legitimate time problem? I would say this. Who can blame him?

He wasn't into it in the first place. Why should he be? He wasn't into the book. He wasn't in any of it. Yeah. And I think mostly because he's? He wasn't into the book. He wasn't in any of it. Yeah. You know, and I think mostly because he's a private person. God bless him. A little less these days.

He's talking. Well, great. Yeah. You know, but. Now's your time. I think you should really. Maybe I can get on a show now. It's time to build a bridge.

Yes. I think he did say at the end we'll have him back at his next earliest convenience. I think which is what you say when that happens. Yes. I think he did say at the end, we'll have him back at his next earliest convenience. I think which is what you say when that happens. Yeah. I guess it just wasn't a convenient time. I was going to call.

It's convenient. No. No, but I actually kind of get it from his point of view. It should never have gotten that far, I think. And I'm not sure that was his fault. So there was never any communication other than you being bumped that time? You were never acknowledged by Mr. Letterman? No.

I had to fly to New York. I brought my wife. They put us in a hotel. What do you want? I said, you know, I want Mahler tickets. There's him. You know, but he got me them. They got you the Mahler tickets?

Yes. The hard ticket to get. Mahler 5. We were right there in the middle of the earth. Beautiful. Wow, they don't do that anymore. No, they certainly don't. I've never asked for that.

You're lucky if they fly you out. I know. You've got to be in town for that shit now. I know, you do. Yeah. And that was not the case. Well, at least he got to go see Mahler, who was conducting.

It was, what's his name? Bernstein? I'll think of it. No, he was long gone by now. It's the only one I know. I'm trying to sound smart. Was it Leonard's 5? No, he was long gone by now. It's the only one I know. I'm trying to sound smart. No, no, no. Was it Leonard's Five?

No, it's not fucking Leonard. No, I'm kidding. Anyways. I tried to pull one over on you. It must have been Bernstein. You could have said anything. All right, so you got to see Moller. Well, that's something.

That was good. Anyway, so that was that. And now I'm a Hollywood actor of sorts. Yeah. The tricky part is that i uh am now strangely a comedian yeah and what do you mean oh you mean comic actor yeah but i wasn't a comic actor and i wasn't and i wasn't even a comic actor in that movie right but i played a comic right and honestly from that moment on that's what you got cast that's all i was i was

a comic actor in fact i i had like deals with a couple of the networks and stuff for you know they like they like yeah that kind of thing yeah and uh many of the executives or two of them let's say yeah it's not many but two of them back in the day yeah there's only three it was just a few yeah and they were like what are we gonna do with him he him? He's an impersonator. I was like, I'm not an impersonator. You missed it. You missed the point of that part. I went deep. I was a paper bag.

You didn't see the bag? And really, that's almost the end of the circle, because from that moment on, I'm an actor who almost exclusively does comedy, which was never the case. It's not what I set out to do. It was never my interest. Right. And now that's what I do. But you're good at it,

and that's a rare thing. I am sometimes good at it, which is great, but it's a niche. You know, I'm in Hollywood, and this is how the buyers buy me. But wait, if you can do that niche,

and you can do as many movies as you've done, even if it's the guy to the side or the guy that just shows up for a minute. I mean, comedy is not not everyone can do that. Like most people can do the other one. Kinda. Yeah. But not everybody can be funny. I agree with that.

And I'm not I'm not even sure what the point is. Well, certainly that I mean, that's the you know that's the basis of all of this what is the point of any of it i know i do that every day that's okay that's what you're supposed to do so anyway i'm a comedic actor now and that's what i do so you did like before i mean you've done you did a lot of TV bits. Yeah. But what do you consider, even with your resignation to being a comic actor? Is that what it is? Kind of. Like I'm, you know, I guess I'm this guy who is not going to do Shakespeare anytime soon.

Kind of, yeah. I mean, I have children. I could go back to Shakespeare. How many children? I have two children, but I have to wait until I don't need to raise them anymore. Oh, how old are they? In order to go off and do Shakespeare and you know you have fun again Chicago or something right yeah are they in are they in college I'm there I started late so they're like 10 and 12 oh wow yeah they're they're young oh okay yeah got your hands full I sure do what do you consider was like like this is great like you know like this role I love what what

was it getting involved with christopher guest or did it happen before that well i think when when um when chris uh started using me uh yeah something some circle was closed for me yeah which was i'm back in a it's a very unusual thing i'm sure you've been over this for For me, what was interesting about Chris, is interesting about Chris, is that it is a company. Now, I'm very familiar with being in a company, coming from the theater. Sure. And it's weird that he has a company. I mean, you can't even name such a thing in film history except like Cassavetes and Orson Welles.

But how did you get pulled into it? Well, actually, it goes back to the Letterman because i believe what happened we should ask ed uh is that ed begley oh ed was working he he and i he was in the letterman movie he played uh rod perth uh-huh who was a nbc executive yeah and and he i think mentioned me to ch as some, because I was just off the boat from New York. Yeah. And as somebody who could probably improvise well, because I improvised a lot in the Letterman movie. And Chris was doing a show. He was putting a show together for HBO aptly titled DOA.

Because it never saw the light of day. What was the premise? The premise was this cruddy talent agency. He and Eugene were these slightly past their prime agents who had this stable of actors who were also slightly past their prime. It was a shtick move. It was really funny. Actually, it was eventually made into the movie

for your consideration. It's the character that gene plays in that uh-huh um the dorkman orfkin agency that's doa and um and so gene was like manny orfkin or something and chris was donald or dorkman i can't remember yeah but um And then, so that was a pilot we made for HBO, and I did with Chris. And then that didn't go, but then he called me right as soon as it was not picked up, and he said, listen, I'm doing a movie about dogs in Toronto. I'm sorry, in Vancouver, and would you be interested in coming? I said, sure. uh i'm sorry in vancouver and would you be interested in coming i said sure he says well one thing you know just so you know i want you to play

the gay guy i'm gonna you're one of the gay guys with uh with mckeon so i hesitated in didn't really hesitate to him but in my mind i was like oh god I'd just come off this long line of gay things. I'd done two years of playing the lead gay character in this New York hit called Jeffrey by Paul Rudnick. Yeah, Rudnick, yeah. I was Jeffrey. Yeah. And I did it for two years. You were gay for two years. I was so gay.

The whole thing was gay, gay, gay. And then I played a couple of gay things in movies or something. I was like, oh, I'll gayed out. And then he says, I want you to play the gay. I was like, oh, God. Absolutely. Of course, Chris Guest, you know, this is Guffman, this is Spinal Tap. I'm not

going to, this is wonderful. And I just worked with him and it was awesome. We did this, wonderful. We had a great time. So, and then what was interesting about it was that you know there's never much prep for these things you know chris takes us to lunch me and mckeon so we had lunch with chris and gene who was a co-writer yeah on all of them apparently yes and the script is a interesting concoction it looks like a at the end it looks like a film script

with numbered scenes and, but there's no dialogue. There's nothing there. It just says the end of the hotel, and there's no hotel room. That's scene 67. That's Tuesday. We're like, okay, here we go. But that's exciting.

Sure. It can be great. It can be horrifying and terrible, too. Why? Because sometimes it doesn't work. And then there you are. You get to do it again. And then you do it.

Well, yeah, but you got to keep moving. These are not expensive movies. You just have to stay on schedule. You get to do it again. And then you do it, well, yeah, but you gotta keep moving. These are not expensive movies. You just have to keep, you have to stay on schedule. But he seems to find something, so you're saying some things don't make it into the movie. Oh, God.

The numbers are spectacular. I mean, what makes it into the movie is a tiny, tiny sliver. Well, that was always sort of the story about Spinal Tap, that they shot like 60 hours.

Sure. It's, you know, gutter domerong. You know, it's like, you know, Shoa is what they shot. And what you get is Spinal Tap, you know. And it's odd that it was the actual first cut was as sad as Shoa, you know. It's true. They really had to work on that.

They really made those characters. They were horribly sad characters. They had to hone and hone to get it funny. Oh, God. So that was it. characters they were horribly sad characters they had to hone and hone to get it funny so that was it and and um what was tough though is that i remember chris and in the lunch saying to me and michael it'd be great he never tells you what to do right he trusts everybody it's interesting that's the one thing i'll say about chris guest which is unlike any other director is he

they always talk about being direct actors, directors and things like he's the real deal because what he does is he gives you responsibility and nobody does that. Well, that's what, you know, I just talked to Walter Hill and he said something very interesting about what people think the actor director relationship is that the director directs the actor.

And it's like, and he was like, no, you hired the guy to do the job. You already hired him. Exactly. He's a professional. Exactly exactly he's got a bag of skills that's why you hired him right right yeah and so i many times i've critics have said you know after i do a performance that works they'll say something like and the director pulled this out of john michael higgins or something like that i was like this is not what happened at all he was sitting there yeah sometimes

it happened i have to say but but uh anyway so chris uh he doesn't tell us much but i remember him saying like it'd be nice if you guys were like happy because everyone else every relationship is strange free fall yeah movie yeah it's a movie is that what the one parker posey had her braces yes they both had braces. Hitchcock had a pair of braces. Hitchcock's funny, dude. He's, I'm his biggest, I mean, maybe I'm not his biggest fan. What's he do now? What is he on?

He and I still work together. We're in an improv thing we do together every now and then when we have time. Oh, yeah? Yeah, it's really fun. And I forced myself to do that, sort of castor oil, because- Well, it keeps you in shape. It's like the gym. It does.

Yeah, so you go out and just riff? Yeah, well, it's an improv thing. So we go out there with, you know, it's like a theme type improv. Uh-huh. It's an audience. Well, it's like me. It's like doing short sets at a stand-up club. It's like, you know, you got to keep in shape.

You got to keep those muscles working. I know. Every time I drive, you know, east, you east, when the Morongo Casino billboards show up and there'll be some famous comedian, I was like, God bless you, man. God bless you. Well, he's not doing that to stay in shape. He's doing that for money.

Okay, that's the money one. Yeah, the comedy store is to stay in shape. Yeah, right, right. If someone's at the Morongo Casino, they're going, oh, fuck. Really? I don't want to. But some of those guys are so rich.

You see the billboard. I don't know why. I don't understand. What is that? Can you please explain it? What? Why they keep making money? Why is the most famous person in the world on that billboard at the Morongo?

Because he's making a quarter of a million dollars probably. From doing two or three nights? Probably. Really? Like what? Like Seinfeld or somebody? Why do you need a quarter of a million dollars? You're talking to the wrong guy.

I work out of my garage and I'm ready to retire. I don't know why they i hope you haven't retired yet because we still have this one no no this is going up this one's going up okay no not retiring but i i don't know i always ask myself that about the nature of my ambition because you see these guys that you know you got to have enough money so why you do it but then then you go like well why wouldn't you want to keep working i'm like i don't i would i i'd like to believe that i'd like to stop working i would too right so that's a different mindset i guess so it's sort of a working class mindset i guess once you get a billion dollars you're like let's just keep going let's get like and sometimes but sometimes i think people honestly are sort of like what do you think I want to be at home? You think I want to sit there?

Have you seen what it's like in my house? Right, exactly. That kind of thing. Or just like people die spiritually if they're not engaged. I mean, what does retirement really mean? And then I think if you're a funny guy or an actor and some of those muscles start to go soft, then you get the fear back. And then all of a sudden you get yourself into a position where even if you want to work you're like i can't i don't you're right you know i honestly before going on stage when like a hitchcock and i are doing this

yeah you know i feel the fear that i used to feel when i was 18 it comes back yeah going on stage and that was that produces incredible results that that fear and that good results yes yeah well yeah but like you go through a period where you're like, I'm not afraid and I got this. But I imagine after a certain age, you're sort of like, this is exhausting, this fear thing. Totally there. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I'm shaking in my boots right now. I don't need this shit. You're like, what am I doing? I'm not. This was fun once. So you think that like when we pass those billboards that that's what those guys are up to? Well, no, I know some of them. You know, it's like my question is like, how much money do you really need?

And I have to assume that for some of them, it's really about staying relevant. And it's not necessarily about making the money. It's very easy for them to make a lot of money at a certain level because people want to see them and the casinos like having them. They bring people to the casino. Casinos are a special thing. I don't do them. I don't have that kind of audience. If I do a casino, my audience is like, we never come here.

You know, there's 12 of them and they're like, I didn't know they had buffets. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not. I don't shrimp on that buffets. It's wonderful. Yeah, I'm not a shrimp on that. We avoid this. But I think it's a mixture of staying relevant and staying in the game. And also, like, it's easy money.

I think for some of them. I know. I see those faces. Like, the last thing they need is money. They're, like, choked with money. They have money poisoning. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

It's such a bad look, the money poisoning. I really feel terrible for those people. Your skin starts getting... Yeah, I mean, how do you live with all that money? That must be difficult. Tough. Tough. You know money poisoning.

You know it when you see it. Sure, sure. It's all over this town. I know. Yeah. It's unmistakable. It's like you might as well have a cold sore on your lip. The funny thing about this town is it's hard to differentiate between money poisoning and

that's the last car they have. They don't have anything else but that car. Yeah. Yeah. They pretend money poisoning. You're right. That is the pretending to be sick with money. Yeah.

No, it's a lot of that in that town. It's one of the saddest stories. It's like when you learn they're leasing a car, but they can't afford an apartment. Right. There's no water in the pool right weeds yeah it's what i think there's less of that now maybe i'm wrong i don't know god you never know you never know what's going on in those houses so but you work with a lot of like what are the directors who are some of the directors you work with that were actually hands-on like that oh a lot of theater directors oh yeah yeah auteur-y type yeah yeah which is good you

know you always learn but not so much in film and television yeah some you know i think you know i i i've done a movie i did a movie with ridley scott once i found that very interesting which one uh g.i jane oh yeah and with uh you know with the demi more yeah yeah you know it's not alien but it's interesting to watch somebody like that maneuver around a set or what he sees and what he doesn't care about. I just found that all very, very interesting. I'm not a huge film person myself. In terms of appreciating it as an art? I was when I was younger.

I don't consume the products. I don't really consume entertainment products much. It's not, it doesn't get me. What do you do? Read books. Do you? Yeah, music. Yeah.

But I don't do a whole lot. I don't know where people find time. It's so much. And how do you know what to watch? And then when you do watch something, people are like, you got to watch all 90 of them. I know. I can't.

The Onion had a great headline. My wife showed it to me. Man, you know, area man no longer taking suggestions for things to watch on television. No, I can't. The Onion had a great headline. My wife showed it to me. Area man no longer taking suggestions for things to watch on television. That's funny. Isn't that good? Yeah, it's a good one. But I feel that way. I feel like that, too.

It's the golden age of television. Everything is good. But it's not television anymore. It's just the golden age of something that is shot like television but could be on your phone it could be anywhere sure yeah and i've done those i've done i've done several movies that are that are like video or you know internet only or whatever it is like amazon and stuff yeah for all kinds of they get traction now they do like i did my own show for four seasons i was involved in everything and now i shot this thing for netflix and i don't know what's gonna doesn't that make you crazy i do yeah it does i feel very disconnected from but like aren't you like i have

no idea how i came off you don't know how many did you shoot this is my thing how many did you shoot we shot 10 yeah right so you know that's the way it is now yeah that's what i did and i don't know everyone's telling me i'm great well i mean what how what did you know, that's the way it is now. Yeah, that's what I did. And I don't know. Everyone's telling me I'm great. Well, I mean, what measure? Did you have a measure on the set? Honestly, I'm a theater person. So what's happening is I'm acting and what I'm out of the corner of my eye, the way I used to watch audiences. Yeah.

I'm looking at the focus puller. Yeah. Is he smiling? That's all I got. Is his shoulders bumping because I said something funny I have nothing else to go on the focus puller

focus puller it's like he likes it you don't even pull the director aside you kind of walk up no no the directors are now buried behind a bunch

of monitors you never see them with the writers no no no the executives talking to the executives is it funny when he is it

how about did you laugh yeah yeah you're just talking to the gaffer hey buddy hey was it good when I I honestly do that sure you got it you're just talking to the gaffer. Hey, buddy. Hey, was it good when I took? I honestly do that.

Sure, you got to. I'll go to anybody, a gaffer, an electrician. I say, is it funnier when I say this or that? I say, do the first one. That was funny. Well, the thing is when I was doing my own show in IFC, I had writers and I trusted them. And there was no live audience.

But I knew we could do takes and I knew if it was funny. And with this last show, it wasn't all jokes. So I didn't do as much of that. And I had a good relationship with the writers and the directors. I just trusted them. That's all you can do. But there's some dudes who get on sets and they can't stop. They got to constantly.

Sure. I mean, but there's some dudes who get on sets and they can't stop. They gotta, they gotta constantly. Sure. I know. And the thing is, I'm generally, my gig now, apparently, why the buyers buy me if they do

is because I'm gonna come on there and I'm going to like really open it up and do hilarious improvs and shoot bits all over the room and you know what I mean?

And it drives me bonkers. And that fear comes up? Totally. Well totally well you know what maybe it's the only reason i'm still an actor because every time i have to step on a set it's not i can't really slum it's not like i'm playing a doctor with dialogue right you know it's like i'm supposed to like michael just ignore the script go crazy i'm like not today it's not a g tell me what to say yeah you know i got nothing so well i was fortunate in that i guess i've done one of those yeah with joe swanberg that's why i'm growing the beard he's doing uh and all it's all improv improvised but it's not it doesn't have to be funny oh see that's great that. That would be enlivening to me. Yeah, and that was good.

You know, you're kind of coming from a natural place. That's awesome. You know, and it's like, it's not, well, I think Christopher Guest shoots serious, doesn't he? He does, you know, he doesn't, Christopher's not really attracted to punchlines so much. He likes well-observed behavior. Right. And that's funny to him. Yeah, that's more along the lines of what that's.

And he has a vaudevillian streak. Well-observed behavior. Right. And that's funny to him. Yeah, that's more along the lines of what that's... And he has a vaudevillian streak. He has some serious vaudevillian tendencies, which are delightful. Right. But boy, if you can have a moment of really interesting behavior, just telling a recognizable behavior that amuses or surprises, that's the gold for him. Well, that's better because that has depth

without trying too hard. Yeah, absolutely. So wait a minute, you're doing, this is like dramatic stuff? Well, no, it's, Joe Swanberg did this thing called Easy on Netflix and he did eight episodes and each episode is a separate character,

a separate story. It's an anthology series. So the idea was to revisit these characters, you know, yearly for as long as they'll let him. So we're coming back a year later to my character that I established in this one episode. Uh-huh. And it's a very loose sort of outline. And it was kind of touching.

The whole thing turned out to be pretty touching. I mean, the character is kind of funny. And I think there's definitely funny moments because of the situation, but it was not, it's not really done as a, it wasn't done as a comedy. I know he was using me and I can be funny, but you know, this guy is sort of like a over, you know, a past his prime graphic novelist who, you know, had some success when they made something, a movie years ago. now he's you know the first one was really about me putting out a new book that he didn't think anyone gave a shit about and then getting involved with some young woman who's an artist who sort of exploits him and it

was kind of a little heavy but funny and endearing do you feel a burden when you're doing it too well this guy's very close to me i have a wheelhouse i don't call myself an actor it's like can you i'm not gonna be doing any accents or putting on any weight uh you know that i am the beard i can i can do that i can manage you're doing great yeah and uh and the thing i did for netflix was as an as an actor which i don't really consider myself but i did learn how to do it you know over time doing stand-up in my own show was that the character I played for the gorgeous ladies of wrestling was like me but not neurotic. So it was really a matter of turning something off.

But I felt a little insecure, but it was scripted. And then I started thinking about you guys who do it for your life. I'm like, this is good. Just do it like a mammoth says. It's there on the page that's your responsibility your responsibility is to the script i'm like great and when they were like go ahead and do a wing one i'm like why it's it was it's fine i'm telling you i'm total

yeah i would wing it but it's like i didn't want to go overboard i don't want to be too much of me so i i respect the ability to improvise in character as much as you did uh you know with these christopher guest things because you got to be pretty solid in that thing to evolve that character yeah and one of the big tricks of it i always found was like if chris says to me you know we're doing a movie and like the last one we did it's like you are the uh you're you know you're you're running a a cable network called the gluten-free network which one's this this one this thing is it's on netflix now it's called uh mascots oh okay oh is that's out yeah so it's on it's on netflix i think it's on

netflix and and the and and really what what i'm hearing is it he says one little thing yeah michael i want you to play a a a guy who runs a cable network called uh gluten-free gluten-free channel yeah what i hear is i hate i now need to know and i'm not a methody type guy but i do know as an improviser yeah the the sweet spot is as much as much reality as possible and then you when you So when you stray off to the left on that one line, it really works. It really sings because everything is buyable. They buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. And they're just like, that's crazy. And that is like, for me, a ton of research.

I have to figure out what cable executives do, what they do all day, why they do it. And then I have to figure out what cable executives do what they do all day why they do it and then i have to figure out what what gluten-free means for real yeah you know because this guy knows yeah and that's what he's going to be talking about right in his in his most relaxed state i want to i want to be the guy in the most relaxed state right where he's comfortable all right because then and then it's Because then anything I say works. Right. As opposed to me scrounging around for something that's going to work. Right.

If you put yourself on a laugh clock on these improv things, you're going to get fucked eventually. Right. The clock will run out of... And if you don't have something to ground it, you're just, it's empty. You've shot, you've got no more bullets.

You're empty. You're not the bag. You're not, yeah. You're not, yeah. You're done. Yeah. Well, I think that's right. I think that's something the research is, so you can put it together.

And you have to do that because you act a lot. I think with that thing I did in Easy, the jump from this guy being a graphic artist and a comic book writer, you know, was easy for me that he lived through that. Sure. Yes. You know what I mean?

But that was it. So I needed, I talked to a guy who does that. I'm like, what kind of pens, you know, what's the name of the brand that everyone needs? And I didn't end up using any of it, but it gave me the sort of dedication, like, you know, the board that you work on, you know, I needed needed to so I guess I did that and I guess it's about me now I did that intuitively I think that's right because you're basically giving yourself always giving yourself a place to go just because you have this information it's strangely the opposite of the way I believe good stage work is

done I actually don't think that doing a lot of research if you're playing an O'Neill play is gonna help. Actually, it's probably gonna send you down the garden path. You're probably gonna go off into the weeds because you're not playing what he wrote. Right, you're trying too hard. You're doing something that's not in the script. It's not what he saw.

The words he put on the paper, because he saw it this way, and the world includes this and doesn't include that right and then the more close the more closely you hone to that like you were saying with mammoth yeah the better off you're going to be the more you close the world in theater the more the more possibilities there are strangely well it's interesting because with this sort of method approach and i've seen performances like that where that where somebody's going to do a different thing with Miller or whatever.

And it's relative to the emotional capacity of the actor, but if you go way outside of it, but people do that with Shakespeare all the time. Well, Shakespeare does very notably does not write stage directions, and he doesn't write subtext. He writes everything a character says is true.

Everything anybody says is true unless he makes a big point about them lying. So most of the sort of like renegade or not renegade, that's the wrong word. The experimental Shakespeare is about location. Yeah, you're really reduced to like We're doing this on the wing of a plane.

Exactly, Nazi uniforms. That's really, as if Othello needs you to bring anything to the party. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got the whole meal waiting for you, you know? I had McKellen in here. Did you? Yes.

What did he say? Well, he was great. He did this monologue at the end. He did? Oh my God. That's fun. Right in my face. Right in your face. Because I said I didn't understand Shakespeare, and then he did this beautifulologue at the end. He did? Oh my God. That's fun. Right in my face. Right in your face.

Because I said I didn't understand Shakespeare and then he did this beautiful. No, darling. Well, he did a thing about immigrants from another, it was from one of the bigger plays. And again, I should know this piece. I experienced it, but it was completely relevant. And because I said I didn't understand it,

he sat there and delivered it to me. And I'm like crying. You want relevance? Listen to this. Boy man that was something. Awesome. Yeah. That's fantastic. Have you ever worked with him? I haven't. No. Big fan though. You should. I know. You gotta get back in the Shakespeare racket. I know but I can't. I mean

unless they're, I don't know. So the great news. Great news. Great news. Yes that's a television show that I'm on. Yeah. Hopefully it'll do well. You're a big part. They'll pick it.

I do have a big part. I play sort of this Brian Williams type. But have you had a recurring like that recently? Like a main? Yes, I have. I've had a few. Yeah. The shows have either gone or didn't go as it happens.

This one sounds like it's got the juice. It's got. I mean, if you want to read tea leaves, which I wouldn't suggest. Not in show business. No. Statistically, you'll be in bad shape. You can't have any hope at all, Michael. No.

No hope. No hope. It's all. Look at us. It's not a meritocracy. It's not. Wait a minute. That's what I said this morning. It's not about. It's not... Look at us. It's not a meritocracy. It's not... Wait a minute. That's what I said this morning.

It's not about... It's not... It really isn't. It really isn't. I mean, we have a lot of great things going for us. Yes. The writing staff is very strong, like that matters. I mean, for God's sakes.

Oh, let's just pick it apart. Network's going to love this. We fucking... It's a crap shoot. Well, I've been there 10,000 times. How else am I supposed to look at it? Let me ask you this. Am I supposed to wake up Pollyanna?

This is it, baby. I got a great time. I would love to do this show. I had a really fun day. It's a great part. It's so funny. But what's your feeling about it? Was it funny?

Was it working with Andrea and riffing? Yes. I love Andrea. She's great. She is awesome. I'm in love. Was Tina around? She's in New York with Robert Carlock, who's the other executive producer. But did she drop by the set? Oh yeah, she's around. She's very much involved every week. She's doing another show

at the same time that she has a different type of involvement with. But she's a totally present producer. Yes, absolutely. She's so smart and so good. It's a fun world. It is. And what's good for me is that my character is very easy to write for. I think they have to put their leash on every now and then because it's so easy to just go and go and go that's the best to have that guy

to be that guy to like you know after like the first two episodes they're like oh we can take this guy out oh you can just write you that you you don't even have to hold the pencil oh that's it just goes you know at least you're having fun. It is super fun, and God willing, I can do more than 10 of them. But I don't even know what that's up to. Do you have any movies? Well, I just finished Pitch Perfect 3. Oh, that's good. My franchise.

Yeah, with Elizabeth Banks. She's my producer. She didn't direct this one. She was in here. I enjoy her. Yes, she's the producer. She's funny. Oh, she's was in here. I enjoyed her. She can be very funny. Oh, she's great. Yeah.

Talented actress. We get along really well. And basically, that whole gig is an improv gig. Just me and her just going blah, blah, blah. Oh, really? Yeah. And that franchise is, at this point, you've got to be getting a little... Mm-hmm.

That was good improv. It was all physical. Yeah, I told you. That's the type of stuff. That's great. No one's going to know what you just did. We'll keep it between us. Did you see the paper bag?

My paper bag did it too. Yeah, I saw it. I saw the thumb pop up to the top. A little thumb? Yeah, yeah. It's a happy paper bag. It was great talking to you, man. Thank you very much for having me.

It literally couldn't have been easier. You need directions home? I don't. I'll say this to your listeners. The Google Maps said that it was actually faster for me to walk here than to drive. Now I know that. So when I'm feeling bad maybe we could both have sad coffee when things don't down with the down with the hipsters down the hill sure just

me and you sitting there going like oh what's the point look at these guys with their twirly mustaches fucking billboard what does that guy need money for what is he why is he doing that mark yeah that sounds great what a good time we got our retirement all planned let's start now thanks buddy thank you that was fun right small world right right oh my god my stomach's fucked up i'm gonna play some some stomach blues. © transcript Emily Beynon Boomer lives! Realization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. and ACAS Creative. innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look out at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com.