WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 819 - Ariel Leve / Wheeler Walker, Jr.

Episode Date: June 11, 2017

When Marc crossed paths with writer Ariel Leve back in the '90s, she was working at MTV and on the verge of making a splash as a print journalist. Ariel didn't know she would soon uncover the trauma inflicted by her gaslighting mother. As Ariel tells Marc, she would have to decide with whether telling the truth was a betrayal. Also on the show, in what was probably a mistake, Wheeler Walker, Jr. explains why he's having a hard time getting his new album played on country music radio. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckocrats? What the fuck publicans? How's it going? I fuckocrats, what the fuck publicans. How's it going? I'm Mark Maron. This is my show. This is my podcast. This is WTF, the podcast. Founded in 2009. Is that right? Yeah. God, man, we've been doing this a long time. How are you today on the show? Someone I've known a long time kind of have i really well i knew her way

back when for a short period of time maybe a little bit maybe i met her a couple of times like 20 some odd years ago how's that so maybe saying that i know her a long time is not exactly right but i i met her and she was familiar to me and then then after I talked to her, even more familiar to me because we're very similar. It's one of those conversations where it's like, wow, this is getting deep here in terms of issues. But Ariel Levy, she's got her book coming out in paperback, An Abbreviated Life, a memoir. It's available now and it's kind of an intense

talk. I guess this is sort of intense talk time. I got a lot of feedback for the Phil Elverum, Mark Mulcahy conversations. Most of the feedback was, you know, I'm crying at my desk, but it's good. It's always good when crying is good. You know, those are the big moments in life. When crying is good, it's good. When crying is bad, maybe you should get out of that situation. What do you think? Oh, and also on the show, I'm not sure I should have done this, but look, I'm a fan of country music, and I have an open mind, and I can respect artists. But this is one of those things where it's like,

what are people going to think of this guy? I have his first record. He's got a new record coming out, but he wanted to come by. He came by, so I'll indulge him. Wheeler Walker Jr. So that's coming up. You should look forward to it.

So I hope you're keeping it together and you're fighting the good fight still. It is a country worth fighting for, even when it seems daunting and full of fucking idiots. And just scary as the sort of foundations of reality kind of shift and move and become unclear. Just know who you are. All right. You just got to know who you are. When you come back, you got to know who you are. That right? You just got to know who you are. When you come back, you got to know who you are.

That was like an old rule of hallucinogenics. You know what I mean? Just hang on. Remember your name. Just remember your name and where you're standing and what you are

and what you stand for. Right? Right? That's it. How about I just fucking relax? Can I just fucking do that? Would that be all right with you people?

Can I just fucking relax for a couple weeks? I don't know if I can I I hadn't done stand-up in a couple weeks maybe a week or so but I spent all that time doing the big sets on the road and I come back and in a couple weeks go by and I'm like no I don't think I want to do it anymore and then I think well what the fuck what does that even mean man what are you gonna do it's like I don't know does anyone really care I, what are you gonna do, it's like, I don't know, does anyone really care, I mean, what's the point, you know, it's like, I don't know what I want to say, and then I go a little, I go a little deeper in it, because I'm thinking, where does that come from, because I'm kind of causing myself stress, and I put in a, I put in for a spot at the comedy store on Saturday night, and I felt like I hadn't done the store. I haven't been there in months.

That's a very specific place. I know I'm going to do the spot on Saturday and I'm kind of like, ah, what am I going to, how can I just, Jesus, I don't know what I'm going to say anymore. I mean, what's the point? You know, I just, uh, it's, it's like, haven't I done enough? Can I just take a break and heading into a Saturday night spot in the main room, I was trying to figure out what the fuck is the struggle here? Like, how does that happen that I've been doing something more than half my life? And then sometimes I'm just sort of like, I can't, I don't know how to do it. I'm like, I don't have any new jokes. Why would I have new jokes? I've been on the road for months doing this hour, hour and a half, hour 40, whatever the hell I was doing. So those jokes, most people don't know those jokes. Because I don't have a new fucking joke or two or a new bit or a new idea, which happens a lot in these very monologues, arguably this could be one of them. just kind of undermine myself completely and i'm like well fuck it where are the new jokes going

to come from when does that happen when does the muse deliver them but i went to the store and then i just got it in my head i'm like dude just go up and fucking kill just go up and kill you know do the it's a full house you know do the jokes you like stay present present. Do the ones that keep it current. Take some shots, but do the good ones. It's 15 minutes. Just go up. Take your place. You haven't been to the store in a couple weeks and fucking kill.

So I go back. I go up to the, you know, I get there. I hang out. They put new bathrooms in the back hallway. Now, that may not be a big deal to some of you, but to those of us that have been going to the comedy store for half our life, any little structural improvement is sort of like, wow, man, things are really turning around.

There's a couple of clean bathrooms in the back hallway. Not the single occupancy ones that smell funny, and you never know what you're going to be looking at when you walk in there. I know this is probably a, you know, the people that like to do blow and fucking bathrooms this is going to you know they're taking a hit on this one but uh but people who enjoy having you know the option to go to the bathroom with a couple of stalls and it's clean uh you know welcome to the new comedy store and then I just got on stage and fucking killed. And I don't always do that because it's not always what I'm thinking about. Sometimes I'm just thinking about, I hope this works, but I'm like, dude, just go up and do the fucking job and kill.

Just pick it out. Just pick out the shit and do it. So in other words, I'm probably going to be doing comedy for a while longer. Because it felt fucking great. You hear me? Yeah, so I feed my cat fish. Look, I go to the fish store, I get fish for myself so I don't clog my heart up with other garbage animal products. And, you know, there's some fresh fish that is cheaper than cat food, be honest with you i don't know if you have a fresh fish place but like i get some like i don't

remember rock fish it's like eight bucks a pound and i just get like a you know like a quarter pound and i just give them little treats of fish so they feel wild so they feel like they've done something with their day you give a cat some chicken or some fish i'll get some trader joe's chicken breasts just for the cats yeah i'm living large that's a that's you know that's that's how i'm spending my money feeding my cats like wild animals i'll tell you though man you give a cat some raw fish and they are flying around the house like they've just achieved something amazing they were in the water killing fish in their mind just it's just that little taste of the fresh fish and just trigger something in their little wild animal heads and they just fly around the house proud and wild man it's that easy it's

that easy don't you wish it was that easy when was the last time you felt proud and wild huh when was it so all right so wheeler walker jr came by uh i don't really know why i had him over it's probably you know it was probably a mistake but uh but he's here and he's character so i i so i'm going to uh i'm going to go ahead and share with you my little chat with Wheeler Walker Jr. His new album, Old Wheeler, is available now at wheelerwalkerjr.com. That's J-R, not Jr. So wheelerwalkerjr.com or wherever you get music. So listen to me and Wheeler.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice r need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series. FX's Shogun. Only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel.

To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. We're talk. So, Wheeler, what is it with you guys? You can't take the hat off to wear the headphones?

I mean, I... No, man. I gotta look. I got to look. I got to keep, you know. Yeah, but no one's looking. Well, we got David over here. All right, all right. But, I mean, are you hiding something?

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm losing my hair. You are. Yeah, I mean, I always said that the difference between a guy who goes into rock and roll and the country guys, I think the country guys are the guys losing their hair so they can wear the cowboy hat. Well, I mean, I always saw it when I was younger growing up that the cowboy hat would cause baldness somehow, that you're not getting enough sun or putting too much pressure on your head. I don't know.

I guess it's, yeah, I guess it's a catch-22, I suppose. Yeah, let me see the record. You know, I like the first album. You know, I guess it's a catch-22, I suppose. Yeah, let me see the record. You know, I like the first album. You know, I got behind it. Yeah, man, you were a lot of help with the... Did some tweeting. Did a lot of tweeting. You also tweeted about a lot of other great country artists there, too.

Sure, sure. Remember you liked this girl Aubrey Sellers' record? Aubrey Sellers. She was good, and Margo came in here. Margo came in here. Sturgill came in. Sturgill came in here, yeah. Isbell, right? He's been in here. Margo came in here. Sturgill came in here. Isbell, right?

He's been in here. Isbell, yeah. Years ago I talked to Isbell. So you see yourself, those are your peers. Well, to me, I don't think they'd say that, but to me they are. Well, did you sell any records on that? Yeah, I did real, I mean, the goal with the first record was to sell enough to make a second record. And you've got it in your hands.

So, yeah, it was. Did you make any profit at all um more than i thought yeah i mean we had it's weird in the you know in independent music it's like what's a profit it's like enough to keep to sure to do the next one i still wonder you know like uh you know these these songs yeah how are you gonna get radio play you know on on some of these songs or it doesn't matter anymore it don't matter we actually put out a you know they had those trade magazines where you put out the like you know how many stations added you we've actually put out a fake one in the trades yeah because we said that we sent one of the songs out to radio yeah and it got zero ads and they actually printed zero ads yeah it's like zero stations added so yeah we actually bought an ad in the paper you know put

zero congratulations on to wheel Jr. for zero ads. Let's just talk about some of these on the new record, Old Wheeler. Do you want me to read these song names? Yeah. Pussy King. I mean, I understand it, but I mean, like, how do you... I mean, I'm the, I mean, you know, like I said, it's like, you know, Elvis was the king, Michael Jackson was the king of pop.

There's nothing else left. So, okay, so you're the pussy king. Yeah. And Finger Up My Butt, what's that one about? How's that going to get ready? Well, there was a, I'm not going to lie, we're kind of struggling with getting that one on the radio. You're struggling with getting Finger Up My Butt on the radio? Yeah, well, the thing, I'd heard a story.

There's a big-time country star that I'd heard stories of who he can only really get off when he has a finger up his ass. So it's not even about you? It's about some other guy? Correct. But I can't say his name. I'll get in trouble. But it doesn't matter.

They're not going to play it anyway. Now, Drunk Sweats, that should be popular. Yeah, I think that could be the hit. The single? Yeah. But, I think that could be the hit. The single? Yeah. But, I mean, what happened? Because I've heard the album, the other album, and, you know, it's not novelty music. I mean, it's real country music with the real country sentiment, and it's honest.

But it seems like you're almost making it more difficult for yourself to get radio played by making them filthy. Yeah, well, I mean, that's why I'm here you know it's like i can say fuck you fuck here you know it's like fuck it i'll just do the podcast i'll do it my way and i'll i don't i won't i don't want to censor myself you know it's like okay i get that but i mean there's other there's ways to capture the same sentiment maybe not with finger up my butt or pussy king, but it seems like fucking around and drunk sluts and if my dick is up, why am I down? Well, that's a pretty good lyric,

but still, I mean, it's going to be tough to get it on there. Yeah, I was like, you know, I was just, I'd spent so many years bumming around Nashville, you know, trying to do it their way. I'm like, you know what? No more sense. I'm just going Nashville, you know, trying to do it their way. I'm like, you know what? No more censoring. I'm just going to, you know, you write a song, and then you kind of clean it up before you record it.

You put your first thoughts down. Yeah, sure. What if I made a record where I just didn't, you know. Censor yourself. I didn't. I recorded the first drafts almost. I wanted, it was kind of, you know, I figured this was my last shot, you know. Well, why is that?

I mean, what the fuck happened to you? I mean, I can say that here. I mean, it's like, when I saw you years ago, it sounded good. You're on the right trajectory. You're a little younger, but you know. Yeah, well, 15 years of having my ass handed to me was just, I'd had enough. And I go, I want to put, you know, I want to put that shit down onto i want to get onto a record and honest and also i knew it would piss off nashville so i'm like well i know but isn't there a fine line like what the hell happened to that first record i remember there's a bunch of buzz on the first record what was that like uh like that was like fucking over 15 years ago that yeah it was like you know it was marketing shit you know like what happened well i blame you know it's been

lon's fault it was a 9-11 you know the record came out on 9 11 yeah on that day yeah okay but i mean yeah that's it that's tough that's tough but it's a record it should still be out there i mean what's it called well it's called no love for the city and because you know i'm a country boy so we put and put a you know uh so your album no love for the city came out on and there was a picture you know picture of the album, No Love for the City, came out on 9-11. And there was a picture of the towers behind us. That was probably the bigger issue. It's just you in front of the old World Trade Center. Just because I never was a big fan of New York City,

and that was the worst week to say that, obviously. Well, it was a bad week for the record to come out. You had no control over that. That's not my fault. Then after that, yeah, I think I took that, I internalized it and then just kind of took it you know and so what happened after that you know got another record deal you know yeah fuck the ceo's wife or whatever you know that's the kind of shit that got me into trouble you know you fucked the ceos of the of the label's wife yeah uh-huh and that was probably um self-sabotage, maybe? Yeah, I mean, I don't get that deep into it.

I mean, it could have been, yeah. You don't get that deep into it? But, I mean, was it worth it? Was it a good time? Looking back, I could have used the money more than that night, but yeah. Than the pussy? Yeah, well... What?

Looking back, that was definitely one of the dumber moves. What are some other ones? I mean, I just, you know, I would get in fights in the studio, fire the band, fire the producer, and then realize I'd blown. Because these record labels are more just like banks. It's not like if I fire everyone, I go tell the label, and they go, we don't have the money to hire anybody else. I can't just, you know.

So it's just you sitting alone in there, like fuming? Yeah, just it's, you know, they got like, there's a lot of camera footage of me just just you know it's just you sitting alone in there like fuming yeah just it's you know they got like there's there's there's a lot of camera footage of me just you know smashing mixing but i bet i you know i would blow my advance on you know smashing you know guitars i said so you're a guy with a second record deal with the shit luck of having a record come out on 9-11 with other problems so the first thing you do or that first year of the next record deal, you fuck the CEO's wife, you fire your band, you fire the producer, you've got no juice of your own,

no real traction. So how long did it take for them to say, fuck you, the record label? I mean, that one was, you know, pretty damn fast. I mean, probably I would say it could be counted in hours, you know. Oh, hours after you fired the producer and the band? Yeah. I think it was the fucking that got me.

So that all timed out? Like the CEO found out you fucked his wife around the same time that you fired? Yeah, well, I knew after that I was probably on my way out. Yeah. So you're like, why not just burn it down? Yeah, let's just burn it down. And that's kind of what I'm doing with the new shit, is just like, what's going to piss off music world the most?

Right. Is playing this traditional country that I love, that they obviously hate since they're putting out all this pop shit. I'll put it out my way, you know, and just... So did Dave Cobb do this one too? Yeah. Oh, so you're working with a real guy. I'm working with, yeah, I'm working with the best of the best.

It's just, you know, there's some legal issues on, you know, whether they're going to have their names on the final. Oh, so you're working with a real guy. I'm working with the best of the best. It's just, you know, there's some legal issues on whether they're going to have their names on the final. Oh, really? They may have to put a sticker on the record. Sure, sure. So why not just do real country music that's not filthy? I don't want to. Well, I understand that. But, I mean, do you want to make a living?

How are you making money? What are you doing? Like I said, now it's kind of really, you know, it's make it or break it time, really. It's like... But that's happened before, it sounds like. I know, but this one I just wanted to see. These are crazy times out there.

I wanted to see what would happen a pretty fuck these are crazy times out there what what let's i wanted to see what would happen if if i if i put out me you know wheeler raw you know put it out all out there see what's happened but what have you been doing for the last 10 years you don't drink no you didn't get fucked up drugs drinking oh okay all right did did that become a problem i mean it just sounds like there's still a gap in time there that where you just hold up somewhere where you know yeah well i guess time moves pretty fast when you're just drinking and sitting around the house and being upset you know so you lost maybe a decade or i would say i lost seven years not seven seven so you don't remember what was going on did you have any yeah i mean we yeah obviously the big thing for me was losing my losing but where'd she go? Is she dead?

No no no I'd have to check my phone but I don't think she is but she's she had just about enough of me so oddly she digs the new record cause this is me this is me not trying to pretend to be somebody I ain't. Oh so

she says at least you're being honest I'm glad I left kind of deal that maybe that's a good name for a song that's for not bad yeah like at least you're being honest am i right that now uh i'm glad i left so are any of these songs about her like uh yeah fucking around is a fucking arounds about that's me and her you know fucking around each other and she was supposed to sing on that one but no good no no she she was another dude now no i'm not she better fucking not be i mean we'll get back together i'm sure okay poon poon is kind of my fuck you to nashville it seems like all it seems to be the theme right

yeah but that one i actually named names oh really yeah like who the artists i don't like oh really like like florida georgia line and um i even mentioned you know reba and garth brooks just Really? Yeah. Like who? The artists I don't like. Oh, really? Like? Like Florida Georgia Line, and I even mentioned Reba and Garth Brooks, just to try to start some controversy. Start some shit? Yeah. You think it's gonna, or you think they're just gonna be like, what's it?

Oh, I'm guessing, you know, like Garth don't check his Twitter that much. Yeah. What are you gonna do if this doesn't work out? What are you, like 40-something now? Yeah, I'm 42. I mean, I'll probably just move back to my parents' farm and just sit around. Yeah.

Is there any animals out there? Yeah, we got a couple cows. Yeah? Yeah. So your folks would have you back? You think you could just move into your old room? No, we got a little farmhouse in the back. I'd sleep back there.

I'd probably be happy just hanging out there, see my old butt. A lot of my buddies growing up didn't really make it out of town even. Oh, so they're all there? Yeah, we just go get around, get fucked up, go to the bowling alley and shit. Right, so they'd just be like, he's back. I think they expected me to be back sooner than that. They've been waiting for me since then anyway. Well, I mean, I wish you luck.

I don't know you, but I mean, it's a bold move. I don't think, you know, I mean, I don't know you, but I mean, it's a bold move. I don't know how you're going to get any airplay with this thing, but I hope you succeed in pissing off Nashville enough to make you feel like you've achieved something. Yeah, it's like I felt like I was on my way out anyway. Let's just go out with the biggest fucking bang I can. Yeah.

Are you playing these songs live when you go out? Yeah, yeah. And people are enjoying it? You got a draw? Are the these songs live when you go out? Yeah, yeah. And people are enjoying it? You got a draw? Are the people coming to see you or what? Well, we're about to tour. We're going to find out. Oh, so you don't know. You haven't played any of them.

Yeah, I mean, my guess is no. And then, like I said, this is kind of my, most likely my swan song, so I wanted to go out and try to promote it. But why do I feel like you're so committed to this? It almost feels like, you know, the best thing that could happen is this fails. maybe i just been at it too long i think you know i think i i think i um i don't think it's self-sabotage really like you said i think

it's more just like i'm so fucking pissed i can't take it anymore like right this look with nashville fucking look what you've done to me kind of thing but you look good i mean the cover you look you yeah no i was i mean i had i put everything i had into the record no doubt but right but but you kind of made it so you make it very difficult for you to succeed but you're gonna feel good if uh if you succeed and just almost like i'm thinking about the whole story so i'm thinking about the end too it's like oh how to work out and then I can go man you should just

I did the craziest fucking thing you'd ever seen so you're already thinking about the stories you're gonna tell your friends

back at the farm yeah that's maybe that's where I make the money on the book oh on the book yeah so that you're looking ahead

you haven't started writing that yet no I ain't gonna yeah they don't like give you some guy to write it for you? Sure, if they give a shit about you. That's a big if, I guess. All right, man.

Well, best of luck with it. It's always nice talking to somebody who's committed to their vision. You know what I mean? Oh, thanks, man man yeah you same thing for you man i mean it's cool to catch up with you again thanks for having it's cool that i actually there's about we we did the you know we looked down there's about seven places yeah outlets where i'm allowed to even name the songs here so it's cool that one of them that you said yeah we can name a couple other ones uh well we got, we got the dirty ones you want to name,

like Small Town Saturday Night. That sounds like a regular country song. Yeah, well, me and my buddy end up jacking each other off at the end of that song because we get bored. Did that happen? All right. I'll say no comment. All right.

How about Summers in Kentucky? That sounds nice. Yeah, that's a pretty one. Yeah? Yeah, that's one that I think we could get some radio play from. What happens in that one? It's just like looking back at how much I miss the old days, about getting old and what my fucking life has turned into

and how the girls I'd grown up with are now looking kind of nasty. I probably... See, now it's all going well until... Yeah, that's what happens. About two minutes into that are now looking kind of nasty. I probably... See, now they're like, you know, it was all going well until... Yeah, that's what happens. About two minutes into that song, it kind of all falls apart. But you say that like it's exactly what you wanted to do. Yeah, well, I don't know that that song would have worked without me talking about the stretched out pussies and stuff, you know?

Yeah, I think that's... There's people who would argue with that, I'm sure. Well, no, a lot of songwriters I've talked to have run into that problem. They're like, how do I... Yeah, you've had some of the biggestriters I've talked to have run into that problem. They're like, how do I? Yeah, you've had some of the biggest. Yeah. Keith Richards had that problem. He was here, right?

He was here, but usually they figure out another way to say it. Yeah. And I guess that's what makes you you is the honesty. Yeah, I never claimed to be Keith Richards. You brought him up. I'm just saying that I don't know that there's any stone songs that outwardly say, what a stretched out pussy, but on some level. But yeah, I mean, I guess he's better at, you know,

they had some pretty edgy shit that they did. Sure, yeah. I'm not as clever to figure out. I didn't want to do any innuendos. I didn't want to like. Right. It's 2017, enough with the fucking metaphors. Right, yeah, Straight Shooter.

Yeah. Yeah, maybe that should be the title of your next record, Straight Shooter. That's probably already taken. Oh yeah, it's got to be, right? Right, I don't know, we can Google it. Do you have a computer or did you? Yeah, I mean, I got a phone. All right, well you can do it on.

Straight Shooter, that's a good fucking. Yeah. Can I just take that? I would. I would just take it and not even research it. See what happens. It seems to be in your kind of thing.

Like, you know, fuck you. I didn't know. Maybe that's another good title. Fuck you. I didn't know. You think about that one? Yeah, fuck you.

I don't know why I'm pitching you titles. Yeah, fuck you. I didn't know you couldn't talk about pussies on the radio. That's a little long for a title. yeah i mean but i know what you're saying you know what i'm saying i do it's like i want them to come to me you know i want them to

go yeah you know what we'll bleep it ourselves because i ain't sending it out it's another good one we'll bleep it ourselves that's a good title for something yeah do you need to ride anywhere do you have a car um well my my piece of shit manager just took his cousin to Disneyland or something. So, yeah, he'll be back. He'll be back in a little bit. Like how long? I'll just wait outside. What time is it?

You're going to wait out in front? Yeah. I mean, it'll be six hours max. I got my guitar. I can work on some tunes. Out front? Yeah. Do you mind?

No, it's all right. Yeah, just not in the yard like at the end of the drive on the street well the sidewalk's fine all right cool i mean i can give you a bottle of water too i i would appreciate that all right buddy well thanks for talking of course man thanks dude thanks for having me and uh everyone go out and buy the record again the new wheeler walker junior record old wheeler is available at wheeler walker jr.com or wherever you get music so ariel levy this uh this book she wrote about her mom the the memoir and where she's at emotionally and her journey. I tell you, this interview took place in the evening.

And it got kind of, I don't know if it got heavy, but a lot in common. I remember at some point where I was talking to her and I'm like, God, we're just kind of working through stuff, aren't we? But the book is great and it's available in paperback, An Abbreviated Life, a memoir, okay? It actually comes out tomorrow, June 13th. So this is me and Ariel in the garage talking some issues, some stuff, some family, some things.

All right, let's do this. I remember you hanging around Luna Lounge. I remember it. I remember you. Like when you sent the book, the book that you're going to tell me about. Yeah. I was like, yeah, I do remember you like when you sent the book the book that you're you're gonna tell me about yeah i was like yeah i do remember you i don't know if you told me an abbreviated life that's the name of your book but i don't know if you like it was sent with like do you i know you do you remember me did you no i said you probably won't remember me but like i do remember you why do i remember

you were around you must have been around. I was around. I wasn't in the foreground. Uh-huh. No, it was like Luna Lounge, right? Right. Mid-90s. Right. I don't know if I never asked you out or like I never, because I was sort of-

We didn't go out. Not even once. No. Not even for a dinner. No. Not for a coffee. No. Okay.

But why were you hanging around comedy then? I was working at MTV. Oh. I was working on a show, a comedy coffee. No. Okay. But why were you hanging around comedy then? I was working at MTV. I was working on a show, a comedy show. Yeah. At MTV. So I was with a lot of the comedy writers. You know, I was not really a part of it. I was more of an observer.

Right. A regular. Yeah. And then I drifted away because I wasn't in the comedy scene. Well, what did you end up doing? Journalism. Okay. So how does that go?

So that was in my early 30s. Really? The comedy thing? Luna. Yeah. Okay. I think. I don't know.

I'm 49 now. I'm 53. That was like 95, right? I guess. 63. Oh, my God. It's like we're 90 i know it happens you know what i mean like what was that back in the well had to happen back in the day yeah it

is back in the day when they had taxis yeah they had like you know there was still it was still kind of filthy in new york just barely pay phones oh yeah Sure, I do. I remember the first cell phones. Pagers. Beepers? Yeah, sure. Yeah, so it was around that time. And then I got into journalism in my mid-30s. Yeah. And I started working for the Sunday Times magazine. So, in England.

Uh-huh. And I got- How did that happen? Like, why England? You know, oh, so this is interesting i it was after it was after 9-11 yeah and i wanted to write a story on what had happened to the muslims in new york post 9-11 because everybody was writing all of these stories about americans and i thought it was really important to get the voice of what was actually happening

Remember, they weren't allowed to go to the Statue of Liberty and sure I was I was living, you know Two blocks away from Steinway Street in Queens. Okay, so it was crazy there That was where like, you know, like within a day or two some kids went pissed off New Yorkers went in and just broke up a coffee shop, you know And there was a lot of like tension over there because all the Arabs are over there. Right. Yeah.

So, and nobody wanted to do that story. Yeah. And if you remember, I think it was Susan Sontag wrote something for the New Yorker. Right. She was vilified. Right. So, I had a story I wanted to do about some of the shopkeepers who were in the shadow of 9-11. They had all those newsstands that were decimated.

Yeah. And nobody would do it. And I pitched it to someone had said, you know, you should try England. Yeah. I'd never really had any connections. Never thought about it? No. I'd read the Sunday Times and I was a big fan of The Guardian and a lot of these papers.

So this is a true story. I called up the switchboard at the Sunday Times magazine. In England? In England. There was actually a switchboard in I Love Lucy. Yeah. And they connected me to an editor in the features department. Uh-huh.

And you just said, I'm an American. I'm here. I said, I would like to write a story. Yeah. Who can I pitch it to? Yeah. And they gave me the name of the editor. That would never happen.

I mean, can you imagine the New York Times? It's impenetrable. So I pitched the story. And he said to me, well, go ahead and write it. And if we like it, we'll run it. And I went off and I reported it. Where'd you go? I went to some of the mosques.

And I found a guy who had lost a business. And I really had no idea what I was doing, but I knew that I wanted to tell the story. And then he ran it in their 9-11 anniversary issue. Uh-huh. He became, the editor of the magazine became like a mentor to me. As a journalist, he said, you are pretty good at, you're terrible at reporting. Yeah. But you're pretty good at interviewing.

Yeah. So I sort of moved in that direction. And I started writing for the Sunday Times Magazine. Regularly. Yep. And that was your gig. That was it. The first interview I did was Martin in that direction. And I started writing for the Sunday Times Magazine. Regularly? Yep. And that was your gig? That was it. The first interview I did was Martin Scorsese.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. He's not hard to get talking. Exactly. That's not a tough interview, is it? Yeah, he's not shy. No, he's kind of going to guide him. Yeah.

Throw things into the machine that maybe trigger him in the direction you want, I would imagine. It was fun. Yeah. It was fun. I had a really, really great experience with journalism for about 10 years. You stayed in New York? I went back and forth between London and New York. That's exciting.

For your 30s. Yep. 35 to about 44. And then everything changed. Yeah? Well, I mean, he left. The business? Well, yeah, everything.

Because it was almost like this golden era where there was an editor, the magazine, and he had- It was like a newspaper. Yeah, he had writers, and we would all go out to dinner and talk about ideas and then the budget started getting slashed and you know everything started to change and and once he left the magazine i lost the contract and i went back to new york and did what i had to start freelancing it was awful and um i'm very bad at it because i'm not really good at being pushy or hustling and right chasing jacks and no free it's freelancing i know yeah it's a pain in the ass so and then i and then i got the book so i wrote the proposal for the book so this brings us up to that so like you

wrote you did the the times for 10 years and for 10 years you wandered the freelancing plateau. No, no. I did, so when I was at the magazine, I did a column. I did a humor column, pessimism. It was called Cassandra. At the time. The Sunday Times magazine. So that was weekly?

Yep. I did it for five years. Good gig. Yeah. Right? It was hard. It was hard. Writing a column, people think it's great because it's consistent.

You have to write a column every week. You have to show up for work and figure out what the fuck to write about. Yeah. I know. I do a weekly newsletter. I dread it sometimes. Well, do you ever run out of things to say? Well, fortunately for me you know

over the last decade i i focus primarily on me so like if something happens to me there's somewhere to go right you know i'm not really reaching out into the world i'm reacting to it so if i if i'm active in my life even if it's going to a restaurant or if i travel usually there's something right you know it's all memoir drivendriven, I guess, in that way. I'm not looking at phenomenon necessarily or commenting on something unless it moves through me. Right. Yeah.

But do you ever feel like there's nothing you have left to give? Yeah, all the fucking time. I feel it now. And now it's all very crushing. You know, my fundamental inability to experience, you know, gratitude or happiness or joy is now only kind of buttressed by, you know, the political climate we're in now. You know, like, my brain is always going to go there anyways. But now it's like, there's always going to go there anyways but now it's like there's a reason right you know right that you know that's the way my self-centeredness works that i'm prone towards anxiety and depression but usually it's self-generated over

bullshit you know so now so now it's sort of like no now we got something right no one's right you know so my brain's sort of like i'm in i'm occupied right but does it ever does it ever have like there must be gradations of it right well yeah i mean it took me a long time to realize that you know that i wasn't a depressive that you know it was really you know profound anxiety and and panic and dread that you know you know fluctuated you know either through anger or through just you know kind of paralysis but it was not like it wasn't a depression as much as it was an exhaustion you know which i i was able to track towards more anxiety but what's the what's the trigger for your anxiety um i think that like the trigger is in some way you know and it's it's normal is i think most people just don't think about as much

is is anticipating bad things you know the trigger is like i don't know what's gonna happen there they're not knowing yeah but personally as well as in the world well i think like i just experienced a lot of dread my my first thought is always sort of like well this is going to be shitty or this is going to be scary or i'm gonna i'm in trouble you know what i mean that like i think that was my way of getting through to my parents like it. I had to be in crisis to get attention in some way, you know, because that's the way my parents, their selfishness sort of, you know, they were, I think, worried. I don't know if they were good at, I know they weren't good at loving or nurturing, but they were good at worrying. Were they good at reassuring? No, not at all. Okay.

No, and it was always sort of, they always put the question back on me. Like, yeah, it's going to be all right, right? And my mother would be like, I don't know, is it? You know, that kind of thing. So it was very nebulous. Right. Like, yeah, I was very confronted with sort of the need to attempt self-parenting at a very young age.

There was really no help with the reassurance there. Right. Well, that's what the anxiety is about. It's about seeking that kind of safety and reassurance. And there isn't any now. Right. So it's like really horrendous. Yeah.

And nobody's going to tell you it's going to be okay that you're going to believe. Right. Yeah. But in a way, it's also kind of freeing because we're all going to die well we are going to die anyways i just didn't think we'd all do it together but then there's a kind of um what is that misery loves company yeah well that's a big problem you

know like you know you gotta even before whatever's happening now happening you know you got to keep moving. But, you know, usually I was driven by compulsion or just whatever it was to keep moving. Right. But like right at the point where I was like, I think I'm ready, I can ease up now because I've done okay, I've achieved some things, then this happens.

So now I'm like, well, now there's no possibility for joy or whatever. But, you know, that's, you you know my my brain but like from your book you know which is really about you know growing up with you know profound aggressive narcissism you know fortunately like i like it like it seems like your mother ran the gamut of emotional that there was an emotional spectrum there it wasn't all just abuse there was the need for you know sympathy and victimness and all that shit i mean my dad was like that too but my i my father didn't have as an elaborate

a life as your mother but like when did this stuff the repercussions of this you know because i imagine they were unidentified throughout your life you know in terms of like you felt a certain way which wasn't good but you when num num yeah when did you start to track that as being pathological or an issue like i mean you know you you're working at mtv or whatever your kid you've got your own we got our problems in our 20s and our 30s but i mean this was not not unlike me you know once you get the key in to tracking it to that directly to your your how you were brought up uh then you know you start to look back and like oh all of this shit right was because

of this when did that start happening oh gosh there wasn't um it wasn't like it was one tectonic moment it was i think a series of of moments that cumulatively added up to, I got to a point where I was in my mid-40s and I just felt, I mean, the title of the book, An Abbreviated Life was able to have a career i had friends right a life yeah but on the inside i never felt um i never had any feeling of safety i never felt you know the ground was always shifting beneath me right right and i had no center of gravity so were you a drain on your friends? I'm pretty sure I was. I thankfully have very loyal friends. Right. Because for me, I always had one or two that were just there. And at the time, you don't really give them credit for knowing just how nutty you are.

That's true. But clearly, the good friends that you have know that. That's are. That's true. But like clearly the good friends that you have know that. That's true. That's true. And most of my close friends are friends I've had all my life. Oh, yeah? You know, at least 20 years. Yeah.

Oh, you know Martha Plimpton? Yes. She was just here. She's an old childhood friend. Oh, yeah. You grew up in all that crazy New York shit. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, you know, the world that your mother comes from and that her mother came from, Yeah, right. And you grew up in that. I did, yeah. Yeah. And it was almost like, and I wrote about this in the book, that bad behavior was excused. Right. You know, it was a very self-indulgent time. Right. So if you were an artist, you could get, you know, it was, you could get away with the kind of bad behavior. Yeah. That, you know, to a certain extent,

my mother got away with. Separate of how it was with her as a parent, I think that that kind of indulgence was accepted. And it's very specific what you went through, but I don't think that having a bad-behaving, narcissistic parent is cultural. I mean, I think it happens at all tiers of families. Right.

Yeah. But like your story is just like it takes place in what a lot of us romanticize. Right, which for me was really very unappealing. Oh, really? I wanted a very conventional home with a mother who was cutting crusts off

the sandwiches. You know, like I wanted that. Did you have friends that had that? I did. I did, yeah. And by the way, I would say to my mother, I wish you were more of a mommy mommy. That's what I called her. They don't like that.

I was completely ungrateful for having her as a poet and an artist. Well, I always pushed back. That was, I think, the one thing that saved me in terms of I always fought them. I always pushed. And I remember a breakdown on a family trip where I'm like, why can't you be more like Eric's parents? And there was just like crying in the car. And my father going, why don't you go fucking live with them? You know, fuck you.

It's always go live with them. Yeah. You know, and it was like crazy. It was crazy. It's just, you know, I don't. But because they feel taken for granted and it's all about them. It's all about them. But I like, you know, and I hate to admit it.

I do. I do not think they knew how to do it differently. And I don't like to let them off the hook. But they're still like they are what they are. And I don't know. They're still together? No. Oh, okay. But they're alive.

Okay. Okay. That's something. But so you're okay. So let's go back before we get into the core of it. Like, so you're in your 40s. Yeah. And, you know, you're starting to realize you, you know, you feel you don't have any grounding.

But you're a bit of a control freak. Right? Definitely. Because you go either way. Like, you know, kids of alcoholics or kids of narcissists or whatever the problem is. Either you do everything to manage your environment or you just become like them. There's two ways to go. Either you're a drunk or you're a person that would never drink and can't stand drunks.

Right. Yeah. Or you're a person who would never drink but doesn't care to be around drunks. So a polite control freak. Right. Right. So you're a polite control freak right so you're a polite control i would say that's correct not to be too specific uh-huh yeah but but your mother wasn't a drunk

she she did drink right that wasn't that was that was the least of it so what do you do in your 40s when you find that like you know i imagine if it wasn't a tectonic, is that the word you used? Yeah. Shift, you know, it was a problem. Well, I had gotten to a point where I felt I was so imprisoned by my past that I didn't want to be tyrannized by it anymore. And you still had a relationship with her at that point. I did, yeah. So you were tyrannized because you were constantly triggered by engaging with her. That's right.

I was afraid. Yeah. I was afraid of her as an adult the way I had been afraid of her as a child. And that's sort of the abbreviated life idea right on another level, which is like, you know, as soon as you engage with them, the emotional interaction is timeless. That's right. That's right. And when you're a child and you're helpless, you feel helpless as an adult. So that powerlessness had not left me, you know, and I think that the cumulative effect

of it, of always acquiescing and always making it easy so that I didn't have to engage and have the conflict, created this sense of going through life with an armor on. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But that only acts to insulate that terrified kid. Right. Yeah. You don't evolve. that terrified kid. Right. Yeah. You don't evolve.

Yeah. Right. Right. You get to a point where then you're ready to evolve. What'd you do outside of write the book? Well, I did a therapy called EMDR. Yeah. I got a buddy that is one of the big practitioners of that.

It's great. I did it. I have recordings of me doing it. You do? Yeah. And did it help you? I think in the moment it did. I do not think I have recordings of me doing it. You do? Yeah. And did it help you? I think in the moment it did. I do not think I went deep enough.

Explain it a little. Because, I mean, he talked about it. Explain to me what it sets out to do. Because it's a bizarre kind of thing that could easily be dismissed as something almost huckstery you know right right um well it's used mostly for people with ptsd yeah a lot of vets right yeah and what it uh i mean obviously i'm not a spokesperson or sure but like when it was pitched to you and so how did you find so i i started to do it because my therapist, my long-time therapist, became a practitioner. So I would not have known about it.

I didn't seek it out. And she said to me, I think this would be very helpful for you. I was completely cynical going into it, obviously, thinking it wasn't going to work. And when she told me about it it seemed great you know like it's bilateral stimulation so you have um you're hearing sounds beeps in your ears you're seeing you know watching moving light yeah and what that's doing is it's stimulating your right brain and left brain at the same time, right? But the point of what it does is that there are memories that are frozen, like that have you frozen emotionally.

So you have reactions to things and you feel certain consequences of things that aren't necessarily logical. Or in the current reality. Right. Yeah. And by going through this process, it's like unfreezing those memories. Yeah, because they remain kind of like on a loop. Right.

And you're reacting as though that is still, you're frozen in that time. Right. Interesting. So it breaks the loop yeah i think of it almost like melting the memories right you know right and and you're able to then see like in my case without getting into too much about it i i was able to recognize um ah i I was not responsible for her behavior. Like that's who she was. I was just a kid trying to grow up.

Yeah. And I saw her for who she was. Right. Rather than feeling the anger and the outrage and all of the pain. Yeah. I could actually see it. Yeah. Like from a distance,

which was very helpful. You could separate the two of you. Right. Interesting. So I think you should do it. I did a little bit, and I did find some success with it. I think that PTSD, obviously there's a spectrum of it, but I do think it's a real thing.

And I did find some relief around some things. Right. think it's a real thing and i did find some relief around some things you know right uh but you know again it was him doing it here at your garage yeah yeah i did we recorded i don't know what i'm going to do with it oh okay but i was in it i don't know if that's the most effective no no i know but you know but we do a podcast of i didn't i didn't put it up okay because i did get choked up and you know it is very vulnerable a very vulnerable place when you're in it. I was afraid I was going to have a psychotic break. Really? Yes.

I was very, I was nervous. Going into it or during it? Going into it. I was afraid that it would un, you know, that I would open a door to memories I had blocked out for a reason. Yeah. And I was scared. And I had blocked out for a reason. Yeah. And I was scared. And I didn't, by the way, of course.

I had to play out the worst case scenario. Right, before. Beforehand. To prepare yourself. Of course. I had to. You have to. That's what you do.

And then what happened was when we, you do a timeline of, you know, it's hard to, I won't get into all the specifics, but I'm sure you understand. Like you have to talk about ahead of time some of the stuff. Around the trauma. Around the trauma. Yeah. But in my case, it was sort of a chronic feeling of aloneness. Yeah.

So how do you isolate that? Well, you pick outstanding memories of that. Yeah. Times when I felt of that. Yeah. Times when I felt completely helpless. Yeah. And that helped. And was this before you wrote the book? Yeah.

So when you were going through those things where you're like, this is going to go in the book. No. No, like this memory is going in. No, no no no because i uh i think unlike you when you did your emdr i wasn't i wasn't like thinking oh maybe i'll do something with this i know but but did things come up that you hadn't really thought about in a long time you mean memories yeah um yeah a lot of that. Well, what was weird was that I found it wasn't the headline traumas that did the most damage. Oh, yeah. It was like little things like a promise being broken.

Yeah. Right. No, yeah. I got those memories. Like just weird little moments of hurt. Exactly. Yeah. That were so profoundly disappointing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That you wouldn't have, you know, you don't walk around telling people like, oh, and then when I was eight years old, she broke a promise to have dinner with me. You know, it wasn't like, it wasn't as though they were that significant. Yeah. But it came up that those some, you know, those very innocuous moments were actually very you know painful yeah because that pain of of rejection or embarrassment invisibility yeah well that's a big one see that's one thing that i always did throughout my uh upbringing with selfish parents was i ranted and raved a lot i demanded to be seen did they hear you? Sometimes. There were ways.

My old man. They were sort of like, I think they were kind of taken aback that I was so cocky and so opinionated and so charismatic. So there was a default to it. I mean, my dad would be pretty brutal emotionally. And my mother was somewhat detached. But I think that because of my charisma or intelligence or my desire to know things, they were kind of like, well, he seems like he's going to be all right.

Like, you know, he seems to have his own thing. Like they were displaced as parents. And like inside, I was just like being erased constantly. Right. You know. Right. Did they disavow your feelings? I don't know.

Like it was like it always became confusing. It wasn't, there wasn't the, there was manipulation like you experienced, I think. But it was more sort of like they were sort of detached. My father was very detached and my mother was very indecisive. There wasn't much discipline. There was no helping with the homework there wasn't necessarily that much interest in what i was doing um you know in terms of feelings if i was upset or sad i think it embarrassed my mother somehow and she would laugh at me a lot my father would you know like he he

was just very emotionally detached so there wasn't any you know like you stink or you're terrible there was a little bit of like you know why can't you do better you know what's the matter with you but it wasn't the the competition uh became more pronounced later like when i was a teenager then it felt like i threatened him i threatened the old man. I threatened her somehow. But where did it start with you? So you grew up wealthy, right? Like Upper East Side? Yeah. I mean, I wasn't.

I had a very bohemian life. I'm sorry. Man, wealthy is not right. You grew up like New York arty. Yeah. And your mom was an artist. Yeah. My mother was an artist and a great poet and a great writer.

Known for it. Yeah. My mother was an artist and a great poet and a great writer. Known for it. Yep. Famous. As famous as a poet can be, right? Right. But she was tapped into that. Relative. Yeah.

Yeah. Sure, but at that time. Yeah. There were a lot of people around who admired her as an artist. But I just picture that scene that I used to see on like television in the 70s. You know, like you watch Dick Cavett or something. Yeah. And you know, you'd see.

Dick Cavett was great. Yeah. He's still alive. I know. Yeah. You see George Plimpton, Norman Miller, Andy Warhol. This like this scene. Yeah.

That really kind of was at the forefront of culture, even in stand up to some degree in the late 70s. That New York, that world of that generation of bohemians were real rock stars. Right. And this is after, maybe during the factory, right? Warhol?

A little bit after, yeah. So we're heading into the 80s where everything is... No, it was in the 70s. Yeah. It was in the early 70s. And you're like a kid. How old?

I was, well well i would say between zero and ten so 68 to 78 all right so you're young yeah and i was a kid and it's crazy what's going on who's coming over what are you dealing with oh well there was there was um raucous parties on weeknights which was you know very disturbing to me because there would be a lot of people there um who i guess you know you now as an adult yeah i think was exciting right you know norman maylor and Andy Warhol. They were there. Yeah. At your apartment. Drinking, yelling. I was a kid who needed to sleep. So I would come out of my bedroom. In your nightie?

In my nightgown. Yeah. And open the door and shout into this crowd of crazy artists, like, can everybody please go home? I have to go to school tomorrow. I have to go to sleep. like can everybody please go home i have to go to school tomorrow i have to go to sleep and my mother would say after the belly dancer or you know come join the party and warhol's just standing there he was detached and odd and i mean you know i i wrote the smoking in there and they're drinking they would come in my room you know know, and I was, I'm an only child. So I was really.

To talk to you? To talk to me, to sit, to smoke, to get away from the crowd, to use my bathroom. Oh my God. You know, it was a. Just like smelly, alcohol, boozy, arty people. And I was like, I felt the only adult. At adult at that time really and i was about eight years old and i think people would did you feel that are you putting that back into it did you feel like the only adult or is that i don't think i had the intellectual capacity at that time to

recognize it but i think my constitution right was what the fuck is going on? Why are these people behaving so inappropriately? I'm a kid. Right. Like I shouldn't be the one telling them to be quiet. Sure. You know, in my head, that's what was going on. They probably thought you were a precocious, cute kid.

Oh, look at her, you know, the little square. Yeah, or they thought I was a brat. Oh, right. You know, like, oh, she's such a party pooper. Yeah. You know? Right, because they're all infantilized grown brat. Oh, right. You know, like, oh, she's such a party pooper. Yeah. You know? Right. Because they're all infantilized grownups.

Right. Yeah. So I was like, you know, the bratty kid who was telling everyone to go home. And then how did this like, and then what, how'd your mother answer for this? You know, what was the relationship? Well, my, you know, my mother was very, she was like a kid herself, of course. Emotionally. Yeah, and she also loved entertaining and she loved being the center of attention.

What would happen is the next day, I was always negotiating for peace. I was making her promise, please don't have dinner parties on weeknights. Can you just have them on the weekends? You know, and then she would say, okay, and then they would come, you know, the dinner parties would be on the week. It would all, there was no consistency. And I would say to her the next day, you know, something about this is too, you know, too much for me.

I have to go to school and she would say what's the big deal right you know so it was sort of and that was a you know kind of a facet of gaslighting because my perception was being canceled and overwritten you know right so gaslighting is a theme throughout this thing in the book yeah about because you did the ted talk on gaslighting yeah let's let's explain that because you know i hear the word now and i've had to look it up and you know try to understand you know what it means i get it oh you hadn't heard it i think i heard it but i don't think like i i saw it in so much common usage uh until recently um but i heard

it but i didn't know exactly what it was until like, you know, a few months ago. Right. Right. And you did a TED Talk on gaslighting. Yeah. Well, I did it on surviving gaslighting. But this is something that happens in interpersonal relationships.

It's like, explain what it is. Well, gaslighting is when someone manipulates you into questioning your sanity uh-huh that's probably the most you know so still down a relationship any relationship yeah yeah um yeah yeah i guess you could say that for people like us. But it has, you know, it's obviously and it can come in various different forms. And sometimes it's when you see things with your own eyes and that you're told you didn't see. Right. You know, or I mean, I don't know whether I should talk about it like I mean, politically now, the reason people are talking about it is because things are happening that are being denied. Right.

And when reality is denied, that's a form of gaslighting. In a big way. Right. It's a tactic to destabilize and take power in this particular example you're making. Right. Yeah. take power in this particular example you're making right and it's also it's a it's a real it's a real um tool or it's deployed by extreme narcissists right so is that is that generally the case yeah so and it's a form of abuse okay psychological so when did you you know get this

key into your childhood i mean when did you know did you, because it feels like that would be a tectonic moment to have a name for it. Oh, you know, there was a moment in my, I talked about this in my 20s. Yeah. Which now feels like 100 years ago. Yeah. That I confronted my mother I was very I never really confronted her

because I knew there was total futility it would always backfire and make things worse but I did confront her once and said the words out loud child abuse and I said it in this very playful way so she didn't feel attacked what about child abuse. And I said it in this very playful way so she didn't feel attacked. You know, what about child abuse? Yeah.

And her response to that was, what about mommy abuse? Right. And no one ever talks about that. Right. And I knew in that moment that everything that I had experienced was disavowed. She didn't see it. She couldn't see it. Couldn't see it.

Couldn't have an acknowledgement, which is important. And that's like real narcissism. Yeah. And that, I think, crystallized for me. I was sort of like, all right, now I have to recognize I'm never going to get the wish for it to be different. Yeah. And that's the most powerful thing is when you have a parent, you know, you want so desperately to be loved in the way that you need to be loved.

Yeah. That it's hard to give up the wish. Yeah. No, I know. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But it's interesting because like my experience with my father's narcissism is that, you know, I could he could get sad, you know, and he was sad a lot. And, you know, when, you know, sort of pressured to sort of even, you know, take ownership of any of my feelings, he couldn't quite do it. You know, he would bring it back to like, you know, I was, you know, I remember when when I was doing this and that and the other thing. But you always do this.

It always goes back to me. Right. But I know you. You're like this. And then it becomes like, you're just me. The way I sort of characterize it is that narcissists see you as some sort of extension or prosthetic limb of theirs. Right. That there's no of theirs. Right. You know, that you're, they don't, there's no boundary there.

Right. So if you're acting up, you know, it's some sort of weird problem they're having with a limb almost. Right. And they just need to get it behaving properly so it fits the body. Right, right. Like it couldn't possibly be that you have these feelings on your own. That you're a different person. Right. Yeah. Right. right. Like it couldn't possibly be that you have these feelings on your own. That you're a different person. Right.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. But does he feel, on the flip side of that, does he feel that he can take credit for your success? I don't know that he, you know, is able to acknowledge it fully. He is now because it becomes undeniable. And I wrote a book and I had some stuff about him in it and it leveled him. Like, you know, he got paranoid.

He, you know, felt betrayed. He got nervous for his own reputation. You know, I don't even know if he read it. And, you know, he just hears about it. Like, he just has a detachment from almost everything I do. And he's primarily, since the book, preoccupied that I'm going to bring him into it. He used to get a real kick out of me when it wasn't, you know, directed at him. Right, right.

And then I had to really question my intentions about writing about him. You know, was it spite? Or, you know, is it part of my story? Right, right. You know, is it a betrayal? And, you know, why did I handle it right? You know? Do you feel that way because you're afraid of hurting him? Well, I think gaslighting and Stockholm Syndrome have some crossover.

Right. Right? Right. Overlap, yeah. Yeah. So I guess gaslighting is the more self-aware component of beating Stockholm Syndrome, of identifying with the oppressor. Right? Because they're always in your head.

Yes, I hadn't thought about that. That's true. You know, so they live in you. Right. So you're always going to kind of like go to their point of view in there. Because you're also seeing it from their perspective. Yeah. Right.

And so like, I don't know how I really felt. I felt like really what it comes down to is I felt like this was a radical way of establishing a boundary. And I did not regret that. Right. Right. No, I think that I felt that way too. I mean, when I wrote, for me, writing the book was because it was crossing a threshold. I really didn't think about it being published. I thought about writing this book because I always felt if I'm going to jump off a roof, I have to write this book first.

So it was a book that had to be written. Mm-hmm. And then I could get on with my life. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I feel like I did feel that way to a certain degree, but there is also this idea that you're going to show them once and for all on some level. Yeah, I never had that. I never, because I think I knew that it was, yeah, I can't say I had that because I felt she wasn't going to learn a lesson. Do you know what I mean?

Like, it wasn't going to get through to her. Right. And she is who she is, and she is the way she is, and the only thing I could do was look out for myself. But you didn't think it was going to hurt her? Everything hurts her. Yeah. Do you know what i mean it was a feeling of of i had to put myself first yeah right so and and and i think that in some ways um the feeling i mean this is a bigger conversation about memoir in general but i think that you're always betraying someone

when you tell the truth. Yeah. Right? Right. And you have to decide to, you know, in my case, I had managed her feelings for so long that I really had, and maybe this answers your, it's a circuitous way of getting back to your question, but I think I learned I had to put myself first.

Right. And that was okay. Yeah. That it was protecting myself. Yeah. It wasn't being self-centered. Right. It was allowing you to maybe, you know, grow that scared kid up to integrate your body.

You know, like. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you know, how, right. You know what I mean? Like, you know, how am I going to find the space if this woman lives in my head? Right. Right.

Or that if I'm always thinking of what's going to, how do I get what I need by managing what she needs first? Uh-huh. Yeah. Like if she's okay, I'm okay. Uh-huh. So I, and that's how I, how I grew up as a kid. Like I really had to make sure

she was calm because when she was calm then i could be calm right well well that's the weird thing but you don't you don't talk to her now at the moment no for how long it's been about um well like i guess i don't know but i can't three or two no i i like say i don't know, but I can't, three or, no, I like, I don't know, we had one conversation before the book came out, so. Yeah, because I've gone through periods with him where I don't talk to him, and like, you know, if I'm vulnerable, I try not to engage with him, but I'm still the guy, unlike my brother,

who continues to resent him, like, I engage with this fucking guy, you know, I deal with him. And do you, are you close to your brother? Yeah. Right. guy you know i deal with him and do you are you close to your brother yeah right and i get it but like you know i i still try to navigate him what would happen if you didn't well you just see you know it's just like what i notice is like i i don't as that much you know but i do need to you know like because i've had some success in my life and i you know and he's you know kind of blew his that you know there is like years previous i would be like well it's not my

problem but now like you know i have a little more empathy and you know the biggest i just try to stay out of his sadness because he will try to draw me in and if i show vulnerability he will try to draw me in. And if I show vulnerability, he will try to exploit it one way or the other. You know, we use the window. If I have any vulnerability, then he'll sort of exacerbate it to keep a connection. Right. But he doesn't require 24 hours of time and attention. No, he used to.

He used to call me up and, you know, he's going to kill himself and, you know, like...'s going to kill himself. And, you know, like. Right. The emotional manipulation. Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. You know, and that's still sort of there. But like I can manage it, but it makes me sad.

That it's still there? Well, just like, you know, like I have to protect myself from it. Right. You know what I mean? And I could choose not to engage with him, but it's hard not to do that without seeming hostile. Right. So I tried to do the kind of like mature check in with the old man thing. Yeah.

It's like parenting yourself. Well, that's what you got to learn to do, right? So what was the boundary situation though? How like outside of having to, you know, kind of be the grown up in it, you know, how did she, you know, of be the grown-up in it you know how did she you know annihilate the boundaries well there there were so there are no boundaries right because you're just part of her there was no yeah there was no and that that was something that i recognized later on yeah because i was in that situation not knowing what was appropriate or not and yeah i um i was i mean are you speaking about something in particular that you weren't well well i mean i the the parts that you know i read or that you talked about a little bit

elsewhere were you know these weird games and these you know the being born yeah that was that's profoundly disturbing yeah that and but what was very um i think trenchant about that putting that story in the book yeah was not because it was a disturbing so it wasn't there to be a disturbing story right what was disturbing about it was that it wasn't disturbing to me. That what everybody would say was such a disturbing story to me was just everyday life. Well, what was the game? So the game was called Being Born.

And how old were you? I was about six years old. Yeah. And I should, just to put this in context, I talked about this story in therapy when I was in my 40s for the first time. Uh-huh. And my therapist, when I told her this story, like the look on her face was total shock and horror. And she was like, how have you not mentioned this in like 20 years of therapy?

Yeah. You know, and I was like, I don't know. It just didn't have any emotional resonance to me. Uh-huh. Because I think I was so conscious of my mother's role, which was that for her, it was a very playful and fun thing. You know, it wasn't salacious or titillating. Right, sure. Right, well, it wasn't sexual abuse.

Right. Right. It was just completely inappropriate balance. Right, yeah, I'm familiar with that. So anyway, the game was that I would come home from school and she would say, let's recreate the happiest day of my life when I gave birth. And I would get into bed with her and she would say let's recreate the happiest day of my life when i gave birth and she and i would get into bed with her and she would be naked and i would go under the sheet

still be in my school uniform yeah and she would recreate giving birth and you'd pop out and she would you know do the heaves and the size and what, what on the count of three pop. And then I would come out, out of the sheet and she would, you know, rock me in her arms. Like I was an infant and kiss me. and then, um,

that was probably the only time she felt like she had complete control over you. I think for her, it was really just a fun game, you know? And, uh, the,

the, he played it a lot. Well, you know, for me me it was an opportunity to have my mother's attention right which was huge you know yeah and we played one day she played actually with a friend of mine who came over and then that friend wasn't ever allowed to come over again why well she probably went home and said you know oh. Oh, you mean from her end? Yeah. Like her mother was probably like, what did you do at Ariel's house? Yeah. She's like, well, her mother got naked and we played being born.

Yeah. That was the end of that. She's like, yeah, you're not going over there again. Oh, boy. I have a story about like there, like it seems like my parents are self-involved as they were, were not, my mother was very insecure. And my father, obviously, narcissists at the core of it are paralyzingly insecure. You know, like, you know, almost empty in a way. But there was a story that my mother thought was so funny was that like one time when

i was like three years old i fell and i hit my head on the table and i was crying and my mother felt terrible so what she did in that moment was she went and smashed her own head into the table so she could be in pain like feel what i was right that's so sweet right it's so fucked up it's uh i totally understand why as a kid you would think that was like the most empathetic thing i imagine i was shocked i mean i imagine that she took it all away there was nothing comforting about it it was like the exact opposite i don't know how i responded to it but i would imagine i'm be like what the fuck right you know like the right i think the instinct should know how I responded to it, but I would imagine I'm going to be like, what the fuck? Right.

You know, like the, I think the instinct should be like, come here, it'll be okay, it'll be okay. Not like, oh, now we're both fucked. Or, you know. Right. Now who helps us? Right.

See, I'm so, my perception of that was she wanted to feel the pain you were feeling so that she and you could be one. Yeah. Yeah. But no one's helping the pain. No, but you're looking at it from a logical perspective, which is. Right. She had an opportunity there to, you know, kind of move me through it.

Right. And just decided to have no boundaries at all and hijack the situation with her fucking insanity. Right. She's gotten very contrite about it all and tries her hardest to behave properly now. Does she have remorse? Yeah. Does that help you? Sometimes.

you um sometimes it's just the saddest part about all of it really for me with i don't know what role your father played in your life uh where was he in thailand just avoiding everything they were married and they were divorced when i was two and he went back there and i would spend time with him why was he there he worked for who well he's a lawyer and I would spend time with him there. Why was he there? He worked for who? Well, he's a lawyer and he worked in, when he met my mother, he was working for the state department in Hong Kong. Oh, okay. But he was living in Southeast Asia my whole life. So I would spend part time in New York with her and I would have like this respite where I would go spend time.

It was a relief? It was. Because I was away from the anxiety and the chaos right and he knew about the anxiety and the chaos yeah but you couldn't do anything about it other than just be there for you when you were there yeah he was he was powerless well I think the biggest regret I have is that like I do not look to them for any sort of help emotionally it's got to be a pretty dire situation that's very focused you know because like if I talk to my mother I'll act like my if I need help or I'm in some sort of pain or something I'll act like my father and you know

just defy her to help me and then she can't and then I make her feel shitty and with him you know if I ask him for help then it just becomes this nightmare where i have to diseng you know disengage myself from him so i i just there's no sort of like you know i just call my parents it was never helpful right never like you know right but that nurturing which i think you know that's a loss like you feel the loss. You have to grieve for that. I believe you do. Because that's what every kid should have as an essential. People talk to me about, I had this great life.

I grew up in Manhattan. I met these famous people. I just wanted to be able to feel safety and cared for and heard, you know, those are the nutrients that a kid needs in order to really grow up and feel safe in the world. And so I think when you recognize that you didn't have that, there's a period of time that you have to kind of, it's like a death. Yeah, no, I agree. And I deal with it. I know where the problems are.

I know that the intimacy stuff is difficult. I know that trust is difficult. I know all that stuff. But knowing it and then... Transcending it, moving through it. Yeah, it's hard because it's fucking scary because you don't have the tools for it. You didn't have it.

You don't have it. You don't have nurturing wired into you and you don't have trust wired into you. So like it's a lot to ask for something from somebody sometimes. It's a real pain in the ass. The wrestling, emotional wrestling match that has to go on just for you to feel safe for fucking five minutes. No. And then it just it doesn't have traction.

It's a constant. No, no. Yeah. It doesn't stick. Right have traction. It's a constant. No, no. Yeah. It doesn't stick. Right. Yeah. It has to be. Yeah.

You got to find somebody where they're like, okay, here we go. Again. Starting from square one. Again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

But the trust, no, the trust thing is really, that's, that's the killer. That's the killer. Well, when you talk about, when you publicly talk about gaslighting, what is the arc of that conversation? I mean, you know, you're talking about a relationship with your mother where your reality was canceled and destabilized to supplement her impulses. Yeah. And by the way, she couldn't help herself. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's where the compassion comes in. Later. Later. Yeah. And by the way, she couldn't help herself. Yeah. You know, I mean,

that's where the compassion comes in. Later. Later. Right. And in the moment, I was, I had no idea. But how did that play out in your life?

I mean, how many relationships did you go through? Did we burn through? Well, I mean, like what is the arc of that conversation? I imagine you're doing a TED Talk

that has some positive closure. Isn't that the punchline of a TED Talk? Oh, the closure. Isn't that the punchline of a TED Talk? Oh, the positive closure is the healthy detachment. I think that you, well, no, first of all, I should say when I did the talk, I wrote it like a writer. And then what I learned in the process was that,

and you're a performer, I'm not. Right. When you're speaking to, I'm not. When you're speaking to people in an audience, you can't, it's a totally different type of writing. Yeah. You have to really, you have to make connections for them because they don't have time. Yeah. It's not like reading a book.

Right. So the arc of that talk was the comment that was made to me by this stranger. Well, he wasn't a stranger. He'd been at my house when I was a kid at one of my mother's parties. Oh, yeah? And I met him as an adult. He's a writer who, when I went to go have the first interview I had with the man who became my editor at the Sunday Times Magazine, he showed up at the end of that. Just out of nowhere?

Well, he was having dinner with him. Okay. They were having dinner. And did you have like a, oh my God, kind of? No, I didn't recognize him. I was introduced to him because the last time I'd seen him, I was five years old. Yeah. So my editor, Robin Morgan, introduced me to him.

And he later said to him, I'd always thought there were only two options for that little girl, suicide or murder. It was a great line. He'd seen what was going on. Suicide or murder. Okay. It was a great line. Uh-huh. And because he had. He'd seen what was. Right. He'd seen what was going. And when I was told that he said that, I felt such validation because it was an observer who'd seen. Yeah.

You know, what I'd been living through. So in the talk, I go into how, you know, this was the situation with gaslighting. But then at the end, I said there were three options. There was writing a book. So that was the third option. Right. Suicide, murder, or creative expression. Yeah.

Okay. And that's, I think, what saved me and what saves all of us who have such anger yeah and turmoil that we live with from our childhood it's being able to express yourself and tell your story that gets you through it and also is a tremendous help to others I think so because absolutely it makes people feel less alone right people suffer with this shit and they don't know what to do with it. And, you know, they don't know how to identify it. And they don't know, you know, that this might be why they're having the problems they're having. And sometimes it's a key window in a door.

Yeah. Well, what kind of response are you getting to the book? getting to the book people it's um it's been very gratifying because a lot of people have said that i mean first of all i'm i shouldn't be but i'm surprised how many people have pernicious relationships with their parents you know and and a lot of people do a lot of people go through it and um the response has been great because they tell me it's helped them a lot and it's made them feel less alone yeah and they always say oh my story wasn't as bad as yours right just kind of like i don't know is that a good thing is that a compliment i don't know but um i i feel it's it's a i'm still in the aftermath of it.

I feel like I did what I had to do, and now I don't know what else is as important. Yeah. Like, where am I going next? Well, how did she react to it? Now, you don't really identify her in the book, so that's why I'm not pressing you for a name, but what's her reaction to it?

Have you gleaned anything? Have you heard? Oh, yeah. Her reaction was very upset at first, what's her reaction to it have you gleaned anything have you heard have you oh yeah her reaction was very upset at first and then very apologetic and then very remorseful and then very angry and then you know it was completely it was it was as unpredictable as i predicted did she make it about her oh yeah yeah but i think she i think on some it about her? Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I think she, I think on some- Because it was about her, so. Yes, and on a deep level, she knows.

You know, a level that she can't really talk about or access in a way that is useful to us, but she knows. You know, and she had it too. You know, she had a horrible, horrible life. Yeah. Never got over it. Yeah.

And she had a wonderful life and a horrible, you know, it's always. Yeah, I just like sometimes it's weird. It's never one thing. Like the pain of moving through stuff and whatever relief you get or whatever clarity you get of, of acknowledging and sort of dealing with the wound or the trauma, like something stays the same. Do you know what I mean? Like I,

like I, I, what do you mean? Well, like I, I know a lot about myself and I know a lot of people go through things, but a lot of times you open all this stuff up and there's a relief to it. But like, you know, once you really identify and, and own yourself, you know, especially

at the age that I'm at or you're at, you know, you really get this moment where you're like, okay, so what do I want to do with my life? Right. Totally. Totally. Okay. That. Totally. Okay, that's done. I figured that out.

So now let's start living. Right. It's such a part of your identity. Right. I guess that's it. And then it's an identity crisis. Yeah. Whereas then you get people who just sort of stiff upper lip or just kind of like get on with it and they just live locked in that pattern without the investigation.

There's moments where I'm like, I don't know if that's terrible. You know what I mean? Some people are disabled. I mean. Emotionally disabled. And I guess the real problem with that and like something I see, you know, my brother struggling with is that on some level, the responsibility if you are able to have empathy or be a little bit of selflessness is that you know you can

your responsibility is to stop the cycle in the sense that you know if you do do the work and you do the vulnerability and and open yourself up at the risk of that you know once you do get to a place where you have some peace with it, that hopefully you don't treat people the same way or your children or whatever the fuck it is. And you think of other people. Right. That's a big one. Empathy was very hard for me. I had it, but it was inverted in some weird way.

some weird way you know that wasn't like you know like acknowledging separateness as much as it was like oh man i just thought about how you probably feel and i feel terrible right like there's no you have to work at that right i can't hold the space right unless you have your feelings i can take them right yeah and sponge them up and then make it about me right but you know me, I can't give you your space. But doing this podcast really, you know, helped me with that. Like, it made me do it. It made you have empathy. Well, it made me connect with it.

Like, I think it was there, but it was not quite right. You know, the ability to, and I still, you know, talk over people or I'm quick to sort of absorb what they're feeling and, you know, and then, you know, make it about me. You know, like I do do that. But I'm much more aware of like, you know, like just don't say anything. It's okay. You can just, all you got to do is be present for this. Right.

And that's enough. Right. You're not going to fix nothing here. You're not going to, you know, it's not your, your you know this isn't your life and they've been living it so you you don't have to there's no advice that has to be here you just have to hold the space and bear witness right right and that's helpful and sometimes to say oh that must be really hard yeah oh yeah yeah oh yeah that's horrible yeah i get choked up but it But now it's for the right reasons. Not because, like, God, if I went through that.

Like, how do I prepare for that not happening to me? Yeah, yeah. I don't do that. That doesn't really happen. Right. So this is a bigger one, but forgiveness with your parents? Sometimes. I don't know how more than i used to you know like because i had to do like at some point i had to see them as people

without expectations and without the idea that they were going to show up for what they didn't or that they were going to change but just what they didn't or that they were going to change but just to really have that moment where you're like that's who that person is right and i can accept that right uh i guess that's sort of forgiveness in terms of how they treated me or what i became i did all right you know i i'm emotionally crippled in some way you know but there's a lot worse to me it's very i've been thinking about that a lot because people say you know do you forgive her and you know yeah all of this and i think compassion is really different than forgiveness right like i have compassion now

yeah i'm i move i've moved through that anger yeah Yeah. I have compassion. But forgiveness is different because it's opening a door that allows people, I think, to continue to hurt you to a certain extent. Right. It's trickier? Yeah, it's trickier. Well, I mean, but it's like forgiving somebody after they're dead or something like you can do then. I mean, forgiveness does not have to be interactive. Right. No, that's true.

You can forgive someone without having to have to be engaging with them. Yeah. We'll work on it. All right. Thanks for coming. Okay. Thank you for having me. Yeah.

So that was heavy. Was't heavy or was it helpful i you know sometimes i don't know sometimes they're one in the same aren't they okay all right okay okay all right i need to meditate let's play some meditative guitar a little bit of meditative guitar let's go back to the electric. Thank you. Boomer lives! Boomer lives! thousand fans in attendance will get a dan dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction punch your ticket to kids night on saturday march 9th at 5 p.m in rock city at torontorock.com calgary is a city built by innovators innovation is in the city's dna and it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people,

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