WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 823 - Jenji Kohan

Episode Date: June 25, 2017

Even when she was in school, Jenji Kohan didn't like being told what she couldn't do. So it makes sense that after she was told there was no chance she'd ever get on a TV writing staff, Jenji would make the hit shows Weeds, Orange is the New Black and now GLOW. Jenji tells Marc about her early influences, her string of unsatisfying writing jobs, and the inspiration she drew from working with Tracey Ullman. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What the fuck? What happened? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckabillies?

Wow, that just dropped out on me in the middle. How's it going? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. It's called WTF. Welcome to it. If you're not familiar with it, if you're just here for the first time, to listen to me and the amazing Jenji Kohan, you know, talk about her life, her career, her creativity. Some of these GLOW interviews, these are not promotional interviews.

This is a choice that I made with my producer, Brendan, to talk to the people that I worked with on GLOW. But we've got some good ones coming up. But this is a full career interview with jenji and i've got uh i've got the writers coming up to sort of uh talk about that process i've got these showrunners the creators coming up to talk about that process and i'm gonna i got chavo uh guerrero the wrestler and uh kia stevens uh coming up to talk about the uh the real wrestling angle of the show GLOW. It's all happening in the future, among other people. It's not all going to be about GLOW.

We're going to pace it out. We're going to spread them out like professionals. So thank you for all of the amazing feedback for the show GLOW, the gorgeous ladies of wrestling. I appreciate all the love uh for my acting for my character and for the the show as a whole i i couldn't have uh you know i was i was made better by the people surrounding me and the people around certainly on the show and i just watched it i watched the first five but i had not watched the second five, which is where my character, Sam Sylvia, sort of kind of gets a little deeper, gets a little more stuff going on, get a little more inner stuff.

And it was wild. It's wild to watch yourself on television as somebody else. And I know some of you folks are like, Marin's just playing himself. But am I really? I mean, you guys know me. as somebody else and i know some of you folks are like maron just playing himself but am i really i mean you guys know me i mean i was never that much of an asshole look i was an asshole but i was not that particular kind of an asshole i had a little of that in me obviously but i was not essentially you know that uh that abusive in that way uh that uh it seems it's a little abusive in that way that it seems it's a little muted on the show because the guy is sort of a loser. But look, I'm going to bring myself to every role I'm in because that's all I got.

I got some chops. I got, you know, I got some experience, but, you know, I'm no wizard. I'm no method man, method actor. I'm no, you know, I just i can do stuff that's within my wheelhouse and he certainly was but again uh thrilled that all of you like it and i and watching it you know the second half and watching the whole series which i binged the emotional component of this show and the sort of you know the drive of the entire show, moving towards this team of wrestlers, dealing with the obstacles personally and professionally and, you know, as a team and as a group was very compelling to me. I get choked up watching all the scenes.

I get hurt watching me as a guy, you know, yell at Allison or just being the way I am. Like, I get, I watch it and i'm i'm tearing up that's how much distance i have from it even though i was in it i i just find it to be a a very entertaining and heartfelt show and i'm happy to be part of it and i'm happy that you like it and i'm excited to talk to jenji kohan today about all her shows and about where she came from. So that's happening. I am doing what I said I would do. I'm taking some, it's kind of downtime.

I'm just, you know, through the tunnel of it all. And I, you know, I might, I might actually have a summer here, but I, I do have to get on the cardio. The cardio has to happen. Apparently I just got my blood tests back and uh my cholesterol is under control thanks to medicine but now everything else is normal and healthy except for this one test i don't know what it was but it implies the nerve of science the nerve of of medical testing to imply that i may eat too much sugar and carbs and I'm at risk for maybe diabetes.

The nerve of science. And so I don't even know what that is. I don't eat candy. I don't eat ice cream. I think it's like I do consume probably two to three pineapples a week. And slathering wasa crackers with almond butter and honey might have a bit to do with it. You think? Maybe that's it it brown rice is a carb whatever the case i'm just happy that i i have health coverage i'm happy that my union has not been destroyed and that it functions and that they take my money when they take it and if i make enough money in

either the actor union or the writer union that uh you know i get wonderful health coverage and i can go in you know that day to the clinic and see what's up and most people can't do that for years i didn't have coverage i was in and out of plans. I was on Cobra or I was just winging it. You know, I've been freaked out and I've gotten on to Kaiser when necessary. I know what it feels like not to have health coverage. And after a certain age, if you're certain, depending what your life is, it's terrifying. We're all going to get sick. We're all going to die.

You would hope that we could live in a country where we could do everything we could to not die if it is a medical problem and everything we could to sort of die comfortably with the right care you would think that would be a part of it but I guess what I'm getting at is what they're doing to healthcare in this country is horrible and it's frightening and it's going to kill a lot of people it may be 10 years down the line or however far down the line they want to push it i know there are those people look if you can afford it good for you life's working out for you but if you can't or if you're old or you're poor or you have a pre-existing conditions

i guess the the idea is like well you know good luck uh and uh you know the way capitalism works is that uh you know we can't afford to to have the government involved with health care because capitalism needs a turnover if you're only taken and you're not given back at some point we got to let you go cynical it's cynical call your senators and express how you feel because they are elected representatives capitalism uh does have some flaws completely relying on the free market as a belief system for some reason uh it doesn't you know really take into consideration as a belief system as a dogma that uh there's nothing there to regulate. There's no seven deadly sins. And even if there is, if they're not all-consuming, it's okay.

It's okay in the system. For some reason, they never really take into mind just the malignancy of greed. But, you know, believers are believers. But do call your representatives if you feel strongly or you're sick and you're going to die. Or you care about people who are sick or are going to die and now it's just going to be a decade-long free fall for them. If you care about those people, give your senators a call. Do it. I've been down the Vietnam rabbit hole.

I got a screener of Ken Burns' new documentary. I believe it's a 10-part documentary on the Vietnam War that's coming out, I believe, in September. I'm preparing to have a conversation with Mr. Burns. But, man, did I not know. You know, that is not my generation. You know, I knew there was a I knew it was a bad news. And I knew that, you know, it changed everything, everything culturally. And I just I did not know the history and it's just mind blowing that some of the same fights that we were,

that we were fighting culturally then that started then are just continuing now. Where does it all come from? Uh, greed and, uh, ego and, the powell memo that's all i'm gonna say yeah yeah you can google that

that's all i'm gonna say not gonna get too uh too deep into it but do you know take action tough times we live in for a lot of people so genji kohan she's a bonafide showbiz genius in a lot of ways. She's created a lot of great shows. Weeds, Orange is the New Black. She's been in the game for a long time. She sort of comes from show business. I was excited to talk to her because she doesn't talk a lot in these things or to people from what I know. And I worked for her.

or two people from what I know. And I worked for her. So, and I wanted to get the true story as to how I was cast in Glow. So I've asked, I'm asking everybody who knows. So I'll bring it right to the top. So this is me and the producer, Jenji. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snow need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything.

So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Ohan. You don't do this much, huh? I do not. I think I met you at a thing. What thing? The round table where I was outgunned and out of place. Oh, God. I just remember, like, why am I here?

I have not done anything. But you did. You made a show. I know, but I'm not. Yeah, but I didn't do it at the level that you guys did. What's the level? You still have to write and produce and post you guys did. What's the level? You still have to write and produce them, post them, everything.

Right. Still all the work. Right, but if you were to ask me about post-production, I'd be like, oh, those other guys did it. Oh, really? Well, no. I mean, I did editing and I was there, but scheduling and all that, I didn't do that. Neither do we. You know? You know, schedule it.

We have line producers. Right, line producers. And post-producers. I was there with the writing, the acting, stories and you know and the casting and everything else but the nuts and bolts of it like how it works but the nuts and bolts is you hire people who are really good at their job right say yeah go do that when did you earn that pretty early on i got lucky that's the whole trick you can't i mean you can't control it as a sort of control freak yeah i try to control it but i've had as a human being i've had to learn to relinquish so let's start with a

couple of pressing questions what wait and i don't usually do this but what happened with that the hostage taking of the oranges and new blacks season uh was that a real thing yeah the dark overlord um took the show hostage and we were advised not to pay the ransom because someone else had, and they still released them. Right. So they're untrustworthy thieves. They don't even abide. There's no honor among those thieves.

No honor. Yeah, wow. But the fortunate thing was they only got the first 10 out of 13. Yeah. So now it's like a cliffhanger for anyone who watched The Bootleg. Really? Wow. But the fortunate thing was they only got the first 10 out of 13. Yeah. So now it's like a cliffhanger for anyone who watched the bootleg. Really? But I mean, how many people really do that, though?

Hopefully not a lot. And surprisingly, the fans were amazing. They backed the corporation over the Dark Overlord. They're like, don't do this to the show. Don't watch. And it's not easy. Usually it's not that easy to find where that stuff is posted. You've got to have a certain know-how.

But was there anything that Netflix say like, you know, it's not going to hurt us? No, they describe it as a situation and that they're dealing with it. What season is this? They kidnapped season five, and now we're writing season six. But again, there are still three that weren't pirated. Right. And I guarantee you very few people watched it. I choose to believe that. Yeah, I just don't think that people are that proficient in finding things.

It's not like they put it up on an alternate Netflix. It was probably buried somewhere. It was. I think somewhere like Pirate Bay. I don't know. I like giving people the place. But I think people are afraid to illegally download because there's so many bugs and viruses

and things like that. Yeah, and you don't know what list you'll be on. So the other question is, let's start with me. How did I get cast in Glow? Because you were perfect for the part. You completely inhabit that man. There is no competition at all.

And you were amazing and are amazing. Thank you. Well, how do you conceive of things because you're obviously you know the the the ensemble cast that you put together with you and whoever you've uh delegated right jen houston but i mean it like it's massive you know with with orange is the new black and even this show yeah i mean there's like 14 girls women right and like uh it's so important to balance that out and i guess i was just curious in terms of Glow, because I talked to Carly and Liz, and I know you were all part of it. And I don't know who else you looked at. But what was the element in terms of maleness that had to be at the center of that thing?

I mean, honestly, you just took it. You did. Because you're the perfect combination of smart and jaded, hard edge with a soft center. Yeah. You know that era to a certain extent. I lived it. And was able to, you were able to. Yeah.

And it's just one of those serendipitous things when you find the perfect person for the part. You just say yes. You don't stop looking. You don't, you know, it's enough. And that happens. Yeah, it does on occasion. All right.

So now we'll come back to go. I want to talk about show business. Okay. I'm going to drink more coffee. All right. I'm having the most LA drink ever. What is it? I'm having a hemp milk dirty chai latte.

Oh, my God. Well, I usually have regular milk, hemp milk dirty chai latte. Oh my god. Well I usually have regular milk but I was told it's bad for your voice and this is my big radio debut. Oh is it? I don't know about that hemp milk. It always it has a some sort of weird gaminess. There's a little sourness. Right yeah I don't think it was ever meant for milk. I think it's a stretch. Right I think so. Yeah. It's my first one. So you, like, I talked to you briefly on the set, and then I became sort of fascinated with the idea that you were brought up in show business. I wasn't, though.

But as an industry. I mean, you know, right? It was a very, there was a division of labor in my household. And my dad was in the business, and he did his thing over here. Yeah. and my dad was in the business and he did his thing over here yeah and my mother was in the domestic sphere and and she did her stuff over here and although she was a writer too um and my father's work was always really separate he'd go off you grew up in beverly hills though it's like the last house across the street was la it was so we could go to the schools. But yes, officially yes.

But you're not living next to Carl Reiner or anybody? Not in the big houses? Not in the big houses. My mother describes it as Hawaiian modern. That's what it was? It had big rocks. Did it have a tiki bar in it? No tiki bar, but they did turn the garage into a music room with carpet on the ceiling and in the corners for my brother's band, Midnight Fantasy.

How did Midnight Fantasy pan out? How did that go? They made it all the way through high school. It was really impressive. Although now they claim the name is Mount Funk because Midnight Fantasy isn't as cool, but it was Midnight Fantasy. It was Midnight Fantasy. Everyone makes that bad mistake with the first band name. So what part of show business was he in my father was the king of variety television the king that's what they called him i i i mean he really i don't know he's he's not he's more biblical than regal yeah but um he did every special award show, variety show, nightclub acts. Um, he has, I think 13 or 14 Emmys. He was the guy.

He was the go-to guy. He produced them. No, he wrote them. He wrote them. Yeah. So he's a big joke writer. Joke, but patter and music. And he knew how to put on a show.

Yeah. Um, where do you learn that? Well, he was a composition major at eastman yeah where's that in rochester uh-huh and he came out of school and he was in the entertainment corps uh-huh uh and he traveled around the world entertaining the troops but putting together shows like variety shows variety shows so that's where he learned it. Probably. Well, then he went back to New York, and he was doing the High Mom show and writing Felix the Cat and Beetle Bailey cartoons and things like that. And then he was offered 30 weeks of steady work in California, and that was the longest stretch he'd ever been offered. So my whole family moved to L.A.

Yeah. And that was the Carol Burnett show. So he started on the Carol Burnett show in L.A. As a writer. Really? Yeah. And that was the Carol Burnett show. So he started on the Carol Burnett show. As a? In LA. As a writer. Really? Yeah. And how old were you? I wasn't born yet. I was born in LA. The Carol Burnett show? Yeah. That's like a massive comedy show. Yeah. And he was like, I don't even know how many writers, those kind of things. Now you, like some places have a dozen writers. I can't even. Right. I don't know how many there are. But he also did music. You know the thing that comes out every Christmas with

Bing Crosby and David Bowie? Yeah, yeah. My dad wrote the counter melody. The peace on earth can it be. Oh, really? Because that was from one of his Christmas specials. Yeah, yeah. And they were both going at the same time. Yeah, yeah. Because I guess David Bowie came to him and said, I don't want to sing. Drummer boy and blah, blah, blah. And they were both going at the same time. Yeah, yeah. Because I guess David Bowie came to him and said,

I don't want to sing. Drummer boy and blah, blah, blah. So they quickly ran downstairs and wrote this counter melody, and that became... And what show was that for? It was like Bing Crosby Christmas. And it's one of those things your dad wrote for? Yeah.

And he was just there? Yeah. Now, does that mean... I'm always trying to force this idea that at that time in Los Angeles and show business, it was a much more intimate business and people hung around with each other and everybody knew each other. Like, did you have people, well, he was a writer, though. It wasn't like you had people at the house. Well, my one access to sort of Hollywood at large was there used to be the Carl used to be the carl reiner family picnic every year in rancho park and it was this crazy potluck picnic yeah where everyone happened to be in

the business with their kids doing potato sack races right like mel brooks would judge the the makeup contest yeah and um oh god who would lead God, who would lead science? He's so funny, right? He's yeah. I think he's got a good sense of humor. Um, and, and it was just like sort of this weirdly star studded thing,

but it was, it was like this annual, not like it was this annual family. It was a neighborhood thing. Go to, um, a neighborhood being Hollywood, I guess.

Yeah. But beyond that, I mean, we had access to people if like we needed to talk to someone for a school project. Oh, yeah? Did you do that? Well, I got into a fight with a teacher once over interpreting Michael Jackson lyrics, and I got a signed affidavit from Michael saying that it's open to interpretation.

You did? I had to be switched out of that class because we were not getting along. What was that about? She was saying this is what he means in this song. What song was it? I honestly can't remember. And I was saying that's not necessarily, you know, I was just. Sure, sure.

Pushing the envelope. Always. Yeah. Always. I was not an easy kid. Did you make teachers cry? I don't know if I made them cry. I certainly made them angry.

I did that too. Depending on the teacher. By confronting them, by being funny or by challenging them usually? Mostly challenging. I was very frustrated by being a child. And I felt everyone was patronizing me. It's like, don't talk down to me. And it made me angry.

So you went above her head and you contacted michael jackson's people you had my dad reached out the tours for the jackson five and later he wrote motel 25 and all that stuff and you know he was in touch with them um throughout yeah so i was like can you do this what did your teacher say she goes that was when I got switched out of the class. Because it was just like... You used your connections. I did. Oh, that's hilarious. But other than having certain connections,

you weren't going to the picnic? Yeah, no. Well, there was one... My mom had two poker games every week. Really? So that's post-majeon, I guess. There weren't Jews playing majeon. I play majeon now. You do?ong, I guess. There were Jews playing Mahjong. I play Mahjong now.

You do? Yes, I do. Where did that come from? It's sweeping the nation all the time. Is it really? Oh, my God, yes. I have two games that I go to every week. Mahjong.

I can make it. Yeah, Mahjong. And it's so pleasing. The sound and the clacking. I used to hear it. My grandmother played with a bunch of ladies in New Jersey. It's the best. Like, there would be all the...

One night, my grandfather would play poker, and the other night the women, like, literally the wives of the poker players would play Mahjong. Well, sometimes when I'm playing poker, when women's husbands are in the back house playing poker. It's great. I don't know where that became, like, kind of a new middle class Jewish tradition, but it was, right? Yeah.

Like, I remember the, and then she had her winnings, and it was always just a thing of change. Right. But, and then every year there's a new card in American Mahjong, which is different from Chinese Mahjong. So this is like, is it a hipster Jew thing, or is it just a hipster thing? I don't think it's a hipster. No?

I don't know if it's a hipster. It's all the, you know, as a working mom, I was always looking for ways to sort of keep up on the gossip and play dates and all that stuff. And so the sisterhood was teaching Mahjong. And I took lessons. Like the Jewish sisterhood. Yeah, at the temple. And I learned to play. And then I had a really regular game, but then two of the women in the game had a big fight and that fell apart.

At a Mahjong game? Outside the Mahjong game, but it affected the game. It wasn't good. Oh, but what I was saying before was my mom had this high stakes game on Saturday nights and sometimes if my brothers were out, they couldn't get a babysitter, my dad would take me to this post house and put me in a soundproof booth to nap while he worked. That was another one of my- Showbiz stories? Yes, my showbiz stories but the mahjong thing is amazing it's it's so pleasing really yeah i mean i just remember the tiles being impressive they're really impressive and it's also an exotic it's a really

good balance of luck and skill yeah i have no idea what it is yeah it's it's not like dominoes it's more like cards it's a little like gin, rummy cube, poker. Like you're making hands. Yeah, I just remember there's a dragon tile. Oh, there's three kinds of dragons. There's white, red, and green. Yeah, and I was fascinated with the tiles, but it didn't go much deeper than that. It was always a mysterious game.

Did your mom have cards? My grandma? Oh, your grandma have cards? I don't remember. Yeah, I think there were. Were there cards? Because that's the big difference between American and Chinese. The Americans have short attention spans.

So every year a new card of new hands comes out. Oh, no. I don't know that they had that. And you play that card for the year and the money goes to the Mahjong League. Whatever it is, the Mahjong Association. Yeah, but you can call them. It's like these women in New York. Why, hello?

And you can ask about rules or, you know. It's the best. i'm glad they're doing something and actually you know if this is going out over the airways yeah i'm always looking for a game when i'm in new york because i'm there shooting a lot and i don't have a game you don't have a game this is so funny i i just uh it's such a a jewish thing memory to me yeah yeah but did you grew up pretty like in that, right? I mean, we grew up. Well, I mean, not religious.

Right, middle Jew-y, yeah. Jewish as a cultural identity, certainly. Right, your grandparents, like are they from the East Coast or what? Yeah, everyone is. My mom's from Brooklyn, my dad's from the Bronx. My dad's side,

I think they were born on the Lower East Side. My mother's side came from, you know, that vague Russia-Poland. Sure, yeah, I got that. That's exactly what I got. I'm going to find out. Did you ever find out? They do some genealogy show that they wanted me to be on, so I did the thing. I did the 23andMe.

What did you find? Jew. White Jew from Eastern Europe. But that's all that doesn't track to, like, I was hoping that it tracks literally to the house. I didn't get that specific. I don't know if they can find that much from saliva. But was it Poland or did you see?

The hard thing is there was such, you know, the borders kept changing. Hard to know. I don't know. There was somewhere with pogroms where they didn't like Jews and it was cold. And they left. Yes. And they went to New York.

Yes. And there you go. Yes. That's it. Well, that's not very exciting. I was hoping for more than that. Sorry. So, okay.

So you're a pain in the ass in school. Totally. And you pulled favor and you got Michael Jackson to... But were you going to shows that your dad produced? Was there something inspiring you to... Rarely. Really? And I wasn't supposed to go into the business.

You weren't supposed to? No. Uh-uh. I was either supposed to be a professional. What does that mean? Doctor, lawyer. Oh, right. Or I was supposed to marry well.

And my mother once told me I should go to Caltech and sit on a bench and meet an engineer. That was her big advice. And your mother, was she an artist too? She was novelist. She wrote three novels. Were they popular? I think they did well in the 70s. Yeah?

Yeah. So was she writing a lot or no? She was writing mostly while we were at summer camp. She'd ship us off for eight weeks and we'd come back and there'd be a book. Isn't that funny? My parents did that too. And it was really so they could have time. I don't think it had anything to do with our happiness.

Maybe yours. They're different. I liked camp. Well, I liked camp, but there was one summer I went to two camps. It was like, we're going to send you to this camp. And I was terrified to be away. I've done that with my kids. You have?

Yeah. Two camps. But they liked camp. My daughter went to three one summer, I think. But it was things she wanted to do. So everything's so specialized now. What kind of camps did you go to? Clapping camp.

You learn to clap rhythmically. No, it was Jewish camp in Malibu. Not too far. So not overnight camp. It really was a clapping camp? No, no. There was just a lot

of singing with clapping combinations. Yeah, and kind of like groovy counselors? Yeah. Yeah. Pretty groovy. I went to a Jewish day camp.

Yeah. And then I went to a cowboy camp. Ooh. And I shot guns and fished and made flies. Well, my brothers had gone to the same Jewish camp. Yeah. And then I went to a cowboy camp. Oh. And I shot guns and fished and made flies. Well, my brothers had gone to the same Jewish camp and they didn't get into the leadership program because they were probably obnoxious.

So they went to a different camp where they slaughtered a pig and they did all these crazy. It was the opposite. Yeah. But they loved it. Yeah. Yeah. And then you become part, like at at those camps there's always that one moment where someone finds out you're jewish and they're like oh you're one of them yeah exactly that

definitely happened so when does it when do you get to decide that you're not gonna you know go sit on a bench and you know all that stuff did you call well your brothers are you have two brothers i have two brothers they're twins and one of them's in show business yeah my brother david created will and Grace. So he won an Emmy. Yeah. And you won a couple Emmys. I have an Emmy.

And your dad has Emmys. Lots of Emmys. He's the big winner. Yeah? But that's sort of amazing, isn't it? Yeah. Is he still around? It's a dynasty.

Yeah, he is. He must be very proud. Oh, he is. It's really nice. Does he like your shows? There's an interesting thing about the Pride thing. He was standing on my brother's set. He was watching a taping one night. And there was a director who shall remain nameless next to him.

He created Will and Grace, your brother? My brother did, yeah. That was a big, big deal. It was a big deal. He's doing all right, that guy. Yeah. And they're doing more now. They are?

Yeah, they're doing 10 more. Isn't that odd that that happens? I mean, it's nice, but it's sort of, I mean, are they starting now? Yeah, they're ready. But I mean, like, is it picking up where it left off? I think they might. I'm not sure. I think there was talk of sort of forgetting how they wrapped up the show and going back,

or going beyond it and saying, look how life brings us back to the same spot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But my dad was standing watching his show, and he was next to a director who turned to him and said, this must be killing you. And my father was appalled. He's like, are you kidding?

This is what I dream of. This is all I ever wanted in my life. Why would this be killing me? I want my kids to do better than I do. And it was such a foreign notion to him that this guy would think that he'd be bitter about his son's success. It said a lot about the director, I think. And also maybe about what show business has become in a way. Or maybe, I don't know, because that just choked me up for some reason. Because that is like this traditional kind of idea of like you want your

parents to succeed better than you you know your children yeah right you want your children to do better and so i can and it's kind of i think it's everyone's idea but there was that idea of people who come from immigrants that that that kind of goes through you know the generations like you always want them to do better than you unless your parents are selfish assholes and feel threatened by your success. Right, right, right. And again, that's why I think it was there about. But it was, it really, are you kidding? That's so great.

That's so sweet. And he's always, you know, emailing me articles, and you were mentioned here. Oh, really? And he's very, very sweet about it. Well, that's nice, because I don't think my father's listened to a podcast. I don't think my mother has watched the show. So someone. But part of it, she can't hear. Oh, really? And she can't get the Netflix to work in her room. I don't think my mother has watched the show so someone but part of she can't

hear and she can't get the netflix to work in her room i i don't know what the problem is it's a big issue just that the the shift in technology the the the next step or two steps that they have to take to do anything just too much it is yeah i don't understand that but uh all right so what where do you what do you do in college? I wander around New York. Where'd you go? I went to Columbia. That's fancy. That's not like a show business school.

Well, I transferred to Columbia. I didn't get in at first. I started at Brandeis, where I did not want to be. Fine. I had to start at Curry College. Okay. They had a very good program for dyslexics, and they were very open to people whose they had a very good uh program for dyslexics and they were very uh open

to uh you know people whose parents had a little bread and would right i wasn't dyslexic i was you know problematic fair enough yeah so problematic so but brand ice is sort of your entry level was was lovely in a lot of ways i met really interesting people took good classes i could not deal with the isolation at all. It was outside of Boston. I remember it. The train stopped running at 11. I didn't have a car. What was it in like?

Waltham. Waltham, right, right, right. Where an old watch factory had shut down. Yeah. And I had always wanted to go to Columbia. Yeah. And I basically harangued them into letting me in. It's a sister school, right?

No. Oh, Barnard is Columbia's other school. Right. We were the sixth class of women, I think, to graduate from Columbia. Oh, really? But I just kept writing them every few weeks. Like, look, I won a writing contest. Have you changed your mind yet?

You want me. You want me. And I hocked them into taking me. Hocked? I haven't heard that word in a while. Oh, my God. What's the rest of that saying? My mother used to say it wrong.

Oh, something with China. Don't hawk me a China. Yeah. I know. So, all right. So you talk Columbia, letting you in. Yes. In the writing program?

No. I was just, I wasn't even an English major. I was in English concentration because I wanted to take so many classes and I didn't want to do them all in English. So you were allowed to graduate with a concentration. And what other stuff was interesting you? I took an amazing shamanism class. You don't have a shaman, do you?

I don't have a shaman, but my father had a guru for years. Miss Charlotte. In the 70s? 70s, 80s, 90s. She died at like 103 or something. And he would go every Friday and do yoga. And she would walk on his back. And then they would talk.

And if any of us were going to travel or do something, it's like, check in with Miss Charlotte. Did you have to go check in with her? Oh, he'd ask. Oh, really? And he'd bring the messages. Was that an odd thing? Was your mother like, are you going to the lady? No, it was just part of his.

My dad was one of those guys you saw them on corners in the 70s especially of these guys who moved from new york yeah and they were now like all in white or in a tracksuit of some kind and waiting for the light oh yeah looking up to the sun to try to get more tan and just being so happy they were in la and my father loved it my mother never got over leaving New York. Okay. And. So he bought right into the whole lifestyle. Yeah.

But it was his way. And he'd meditate. I remember there's a picture of me in his Lotus, like as a little girl lying while he's, his eyes are up in his head and he's meditating. Really? Yeah. But he wasn't like a, like he was more like the, at the beginning of the new agey kind of movement.

Yeah. Not like a hippie. No. No, just a part of the early California lifestyle. Yeah. He bought in. He liked it. So we always had to check with Miss Charlotte.

Oh, did he have a convertible? No, he didn't. It's not that important, but yeah. Miss Charlotte, huh? And did you know her? Yeah. I went to Miss Charlotte a few times because she was-

What was her- She was German, Charlotte Zutrauen. What was her credentials? She had been the heir apparent to Yogananda, but had decided she didn't want to take over the thing, so she went private practice. Oh, okay. So you study shamanism and English and

just well-rounded liberal arts education. Really good liberal arts education. Solid. It means something, right? Yeah. That's what I do too. You want to learn things. You're curious. So you want to do things. I have a kid who's starting in the fall and it's like, just go to school. How do you feel?

He's 18? He's 17. He'll be 18 soon yeah how's he turning out he's awesome which makes it even harder to because he just i mean he didn't just he's always been an interesting kid but he's the best company he's really funny he's really smart he's really in the world and. And he's leaving. And he's one of my favorite people to hang out with. And it's sort of heartbreaking. Don't you have some other ones? I have two more. My daughter, though, is leaving in the fall for one semester. She's doing this thing called the mountain school,

where she's going to work on a farm and take classes. That's good. So I'm losing two at once. But I still have the little one. So are you freaking out? A little bit. Oh, I can't imagine that. I think it's at once, but I still have the little one. So are you freaking out? A little bit. Oh, I can't imagine that. I think it's one of the reasons I never had kids, aside from constant worry and dread.

Right. The leaving thing. It's built into it. Yeah. And if you've done your job, they go on, they live their lives. But I like them so much. I like them so much. And I like being around them.

Do you like your husband? I like my husband. Oh, good. So you guys will be good to know each other. Yeah, and we still have the caboose, and he's got a few years. But my question is, when you see, I think you're younger than me, but there was, I know you are, but there was this kind of compulsion when we were younger to learn about stuff. The 60s were still not that far behind us, And there was this interest in all these different things. And I

don't know anything about kids that age now, or that that compulsion, because there's so much available at all times. It's all available at your fingertips. Yeah, it's a different and school, but schools haven't adapted to that yet. There's still and I guess there's benefit. They're like our parents. They just haven't. Yeah, they haven't quite gotten to there. And classic, quote-unquote, education is still the norm. Some places are getting more progressive. But they don't have to research the same way we did. They don't have to seek things out.

It's all available. What's he interested in? Well, that's the great thing. He used to be a real science-y kid and then he worked in labs over the summer and um realized it's not for him so he's wide open right now which i think is really cool yeah oh man i i like everyone always talks so negatively about that generation and i like and i want to have hope and i want to feel like they're the generation after millennials oh so so now so they're awesome they're they're analog they're back yeah yeah it's like i think And I want to have hope and I want to feel like. They're the generation after millennials. My kids. So now.

So they're awesome. They're analog. They're back to analog. Yeah. It's like, I think Gen Z. Oh, really? Yeah. And how are they different, do you think?

I think they're less, theoretically, they're less self-centered. Yeah, yeah. They want to, they're workers. They want to help and they want to get involved. Yeah. Sensitive. They're back, they've gone through the narcissistic tunnel and now we're back at uh yeah hopefully i i hope so jesus so all right so what happens because like you know i guess what i want to track a little is

you know how one you know i've talked to other people in show business but you know in terms of becoming a producer from a writer and stuff, where does that start? When did you graduate and then what, you come back out here? I came back out here. I didn't mean to. I drove across country with a friend and I thought, I'll get off somewhere and I'll waitress and I'll write a novel. You did all the things. Yeah.

So you wanted to write fiction? Yeah. And I had success writing fiction in college. When I was out of money, I'd enter contests and get $200. Really? Like short stories? Short stories. Who's your favorite writers?

I mean, I love Cheever and I love Carver and I love... Cheever. Did you ever see that film, the adaptation, The Swimmer? I didn't see the film. How was it? I love the story. It's brutal. Because I see the story so clearly in my head.

I don't know if I want to. It's Burt Lancaster, I think, playing this. He's just like this weirdly empty, beaten kind of guy. You know what? Actually, I'm wrong. I did see it. Now that you said Burt Lancaster. Yeah.

Yes. It's a very weird kind of movie. Yeah. Because you don't really put it all together that he's swimming through the wreckage of his life in some way. And it's just, it it's kind of devastating it's a weird little movie it's amazing cheever and who'd you say uh harvard oh yeah i liked i liked writing short stories i i tried a playwriting class i was told i was terrible yeah um and so you were gonna your romantic vision was like you know

I'll just you know I'll just get out and live an American life right amongst the people right and write

you know you know heartfelt earnest dark stories I don't know necessarily earnest but yeah were you always comedic

I think I'm better on the page than in person I think I think funny and I write funny. Yeah. Because Carver makes sense to me.

Yeah. Heading into what you ultimately did. Yeah. I mean, I read everything when I was younger, so I think there's influences from all over. But you weren't like a Philip Roth thing? Was that more of a guy thing? I read Philip Roth.

I read, you know, and Morgenstern is a great character a great character and you know it's fun to hear about the other side and the masturbation and what you guys do yeah what you guys do which I've learned about a lot since you got a son now I have two sons yeah so yeah they're very fond of their penises yes but why not why wouldn't you be so okay so you don't get off in middle i don't get off i come back to la i'm working back with your parents uh for like two weeks and then i take my bat mitzvah money and i get an apartment um yeah you put that you were able to do first last and security with the bat mitzvah money i don't think yes at that point i found some, at that point. I found some old Israeli.

I found some old U.S. treasury bonds. Bonds, yes. They were worth nothing. No. And I had some Israeli bonds that I think I got when I was born or something that I found. They're nothing. They're nothing. Yeah.

Yeah. You would think, like, this has been 40 years. No. I'm going to be a millionaire. It's $18 because it's high. Yeah. No, it's not. Very disappointing.

Yeah. All right. So where'd you get the apartment? I got an apartment in West Hollywood, which was a great little studio, but it was down the street from a strip club. It was the one on Sunset. Oh yeah. Near the comedy store.

The one that has the nude. Girls, girls, girls, 18. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the problem was I was working and I would come home late and the entire street was parked up and I'd be so exhausted. And I'd be circling and crying. So that. That leads to stripping if you're not careful.

Exactly. Circling and crying. Exactly. But I can't do pole. You can't, damn it. I have almost all the elements so yeah I was living there and I was working

crappy jobs in show business? no I worked at a I wrote the blurbs, restaurant blurbs the LA Weekly for a little bit I worked at I Love Juicy which was a vegan restaurant in Venice

oh my god you drove all the way down there when I moved back I wanted to know I Love Juicy, which was a vegan restaurant in Venice. Oh, my God. You drove all the way down there? Well, I wanted to get part of my, when I moved back, I wanted to know the city. Right. And also, at that time, my goal, I was going to be a spoken word performance artist. What year is this? 80s? 91.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. So that was when the slam poetry thing was started. It wasn't so much slam poetry. Like in New York, I was obsessed with Joe Frank in the dark, like the radio thing. And it was the time of Laurie Anderson and Eric Boghossian and Spalding Gray and all these people who could sit on a stage with a desk and capture an audience for two hours.

Like Spalding, I saw him do Swimming in Cambodia and Monster in a Box, I think. He was astounding. I went to everything. And I worked in a performance art gallery in and Monster in a Box, I think. He was astounding. I went to everything. And I worked in a performance art gallery in Tribeca called the Franklin Furnace. I was the intern. Really? And so that was going to be my thing.

And it's such a bad idea because I'm really nasal. I'm blinky. I'm not comfortable on stage. And I'd much rather hide behind fiction. And it's so exposed. But at that time, that was the big goal. And it was, so I was working at a performance art magazine downtown called High Performance. I remember that magazine.

Yeah. Yeah. And then in the Valley was the Reader. And then in Venice was the Juice Place. And I was running around. And then eventually. Did that really translate here? I mean, were there people doing that in LA?

Like at that level? Yeah. To some extent. Yeah. Chris Burton was out here, I think. Uh-huh. really translate here there was i mean were there people doing that in la like at that level yeah to some extent yeah chris burton was out here i think uh-huh um and uh because like seeing spalding or eric or they would all come through town and certainly joe frank was based here um i just started learning about him i learned about him through ira glass oh i was obsessed yeah i was it was like the beginning of a certain type of radio, right? It was amazing. And I lived in New York.

I didn't get housing senior year and I lived in a welfare hotel. And it was just this, not a happy place. But I'd sit in my room where I had contact paper to every surface. And I'd listen to Joe Frank

through a station in New Jersey. Oh, yeah. And I was in love. Yeah. Did you ever meet him? No. He's still around. I know.

Someone just emailed me that I should interview him. I've got to get up to speed on him. I'm very bad at getting, I don't know where people find time to do anything. Yeah. If you don't do it when you're that age, like where things are planting, like now as we get older,

it's like, who the fuck has the time to do anything? But it's hard because you have to keep inputting yeah you do and and i feel like there's a deficit right now i need to definitely input more because my output is you get tapped out yeah like and i get belligerent too as i get older because everything seems like a pain in the ass like you know you want to go to the museum like what is this right right right and how do you force yourself well yeah also there's so much to watch on television i can't even i don't even know how like i do a bunch of material on it my stand-up now about that just being like you know like the idea that people tell me if i ask me if i've seen a show not only have i not heard of the show when they tell me where it's on i don't know what that is

right what is that i'm like i'm not my parents but there's another thing but i don't think everybody knows all that stuff everyone picks their thing and they do it well that's how the i mean i know how my kids don't care what platform it's on right it's just i know i want to watch this where is it right and i'll go wherever it is there's not necessarily brand loyalty on all right so so performance art decide right right i and joe frank so you got a brain full of. I love all this stuff. But it's gritty stuff you like. Yeah, yeah, and just stories.

I mean, but stories are primal, you know? Yeah. Yeah, what do you mean? I just think when my kids were babies. Yeah. I remember they'd start, I have an amazing nanny who was a master of distraction. And they'd start to get fussy or moody and she'd say, did you hear about the puppy?

And start telling the story. And it was the power of narrative. Yeah. And it's something so basic. It's like, oh, I want to hear what happened with the puppy. Right, right. And we all love stories and i think that's the explosion and podcasts so many are just you can sit and listen to stories

yeah um i guess it's always been that way what else do you have it's like oral tradition yeah yeah yeah there was apparently um they found a campfire site from millions of years ago, and they found popcorn kernels. Like, people had been eating popcorn and sort of watching the fire show and telling stories. Hanging out. I love that idea. Popcorn is eternal. So you realize that, you know, it was storytelling that you were attracted by. Yes.

Not getting on stage. No. Engaged. I'm not a performer. But right, but engaged storytelling. I mean, because Jesus, like between Eric and Spaulding,

I mean, that is some manic business. Yeah. You know? And later, like Danny Hawk and there were a lot of people. He did more characters.

I kind of, like I didn't, like well, Eric did characters but he never got that far away from himself. He was a storyteller and Spaulding was a genius storyteller

and Laurie Anderson was like out there. Out there. It was ethereal. It was a storyteller and Spalding was a genius storyteller and Laurie Anderson was like out there. It was kind of amazing and Karen Finley was shoving potatoes up her ass. You saw that? I didn't see it. She was a little earlier, right? Yeah, and she had been at the furnace and she'd been

places, but I hadn't. Because by the time you were there, it was already the original crew. It's because I got to New York in the 80s and you're you're on the lower east side you're like this is where it happens it's like well it happened right you know now there's just a repetition of people trying to hold on there was some interesting shows of course yeah yeah yeah i saw some wild shit there um so when do you start getting into show business when When I, you know, the whole rebellion thing again, when I'm told I can't.

Right. But did you tap out on chasing the poetry dream and that kind of stuff, spoken word stuff? I just, I wasn't sure what I was going to do and I was working these weird jobs

and then I was PA-ing on some things. That's always the entry point, the PA thing. And I PA-ed for Jay Tarsis because I had been obsessed with the Days and Nights of Molly Dodd. Yeah.

It was my favorite show. Yeah. And, he was just grumpy. Yeah. Just like, don't be your heroes. Yeah, right.

So, my, I was seeing someone at the time whose friend was having success in showbiz, his friend from summer camp. And I said, oh, maybe I should try that.

I've always written, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah. And he told me, you have a better chance of being elected to Congress than getting on the staff of a TV show, which was all I needed. Yeah, yeah. A good fight. Yeah. I left my job. And I moved up to Santa Cruz for a little while.

One of my best friends was studying for her medical boards. At UC Santa Cruz? She had gone to, yeah, yeah. She was trying to get into medical. That's such a trippy little town. Yeah. And she had a little house and we'd go to coffee shops and I'd work on my scripts

because I had taped things off TV and watched them. So you're working on spec scripts. I'm working on spec scripts and she's studying for spec scripts, and she's studying for her boards, and now she's a doctor, and I'm still writing. You're both doing all right. Yeah, we're doing okay. And then we just have sort of hippie adventures in Santa Cruz, which was awesome, and I came back with these specs.

For what? I had a Seinfeld and a Simpsons, and my ex-sister-in-law's father gave them to my first agent in an elevator. They worked in the same building. Uh-huh. And he read them.

Second use of connection. Yes, exactly. Michael Jackson, defense, and this. And my ex-sister-in-law's father. And then he said, I can't do with the animated. So then I wrote a Roseanne and he sent me out

and I was on staff by spring. For who? The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. You were in the room. That was my first job. Really? Yeah. That was a big show?

It was a big show, a happy stage, a miserable upstairs. Really? It was a rough room. Which means the writer's room? Yeah. It was a rough room. That's what it's called? The upstairs?

I guess. I mean, in that configuration, the writer's room. But that's one of those stories where like because i got guys who wrote on marin who were you know sort of veterans of rooms yeah and you know there was a period there and i imagine it still exists but probably not to the degree it did where the showrunners could be just fucking monsters the the show at the time was going through divorce so he never wanted to go home so he made everybody stay we stayed forever he was a little bit of a drinker i don't know if he knew this but someone on staff was peeing in his tequila

and he kept getting the flu um oh my god it was not pretty that is not a good writer's room no it was there was a lot of really messed up stuff and having had that experience, I felt like I need to write my own stuff. Like, right then I knew I wanted a side door or something. But you knew, did you learn that first job, the way it worked? How people, because like, it becomes very clear that like, well, the showrunner's the job, the creator's the job. You know, you're not going to. Be careful what you wish for. Right, right. But like, you know, that's the career, you know, the job. You know, you're not going to. Be careful what you wish for. Right, right.

But like, you know, that's the career, you know, to be, you know, just a staffer, you know, for life is rough. It is rough. And I knew I wanted to have kids. Yeah. And it was not going to happen unless I could control the production. Yeah. So what's the next job?

the production. Yeah. So what's the next job? So I write a pilot about 20-somethings and I get hired onto Friends. You did? Yes. First season.

And I was literally put in the copy room and snack room at a little desk. And I was the age of the characters and the showrunners were older. And I was full of enthusiasm and I gave them everything I could

and I got fired. Within the first season? Yeah. Why? Do you know? And you didn't do a script? I did do a script and I should have taken it to arbitration because they took my name off it

and I'm really upset about it. But look, you learn along the way. It's like, that's the other thing about writing is that, you know, because even when you, like it is really, you know, people write, the way it works is, you know, the outline process and then you break down, you break the story, the outline process, and process and then it's assigned right and then it like can be like re-taken away it's very hard to credit people properly yes and i think people don't understand that just because

someone's name is on a script like i hear in ryan murphy's camp they just take turns putting their names on scripts just to get paid that week right and it That seems fair, but it's still a little weird. It's weird. Because really, it's a collaborative effort all the way through. Very much so. I mean, you should just list all the writers on everything, but then people don't get the right insurance. Right.

Exactly. Right? Yeah. All right. So you do the friends thing, and that doesn't work. Yeah, and it sort of soured me on the whole show business thing. So I went to Nepal to trek. And I had researched online, which was the very beginning of online and I was going to meet up with this group and I show up and I'm like 23

yeah and everyone's in their 50s and 60s but they you know they had a good pace and I would I would walk on my own and then meet up with people for dinner and I heard all about their grandkids and I realized that showbiz wasn't out of my system because I wrote a Frazier in Nepal in Nepal so you weren't you didn't get the spiritual yeah enlightenment I I loved the walking and it was pretty and it was exotic um but I I needed to continue my real life I guess guess. Yeah. I don't know. Well, you wanted to win show business. I wanted to win show business. Yeah.

Did they make the Frasier? They didn't. The specs, they never made specs. It was a legal thing. Specs were to show that you knew how to copy the voice of the show. Oh, that's right. I guess that, yeah, they wanted to see that you could write. Right.

And what I started doing every year was writing pilots while staffing on shows. But when I got back, I got- Like a stack of pilots? I have, I think, 15 or 17 pilots in a drawer. You got to keep buying your lottery tickets. Yeah. But when I got back, I got the best job from that same, I think, 20-something script of my life, which really taught me that rooms can be healthy and productive

and creative. And that was for Tracy Ullman on Tracy Takes On. How'd you meet her? She read my stuff. I got called in for an interview and I got the job. As a writer. Yeah. And it was a great staff, a lot of veterans, a lot of, and truly funny.

And that was sort of an exciting show because she was this versatile performance artist, really. She was phenomenal. Yeah. And that was the thing. Everything you gave her, even if it wasn't going to make it, she delivered. And every Wednesday we'd read through the scripts out loud and read through the sketches. And I was soon relegated to stage directions because I would tank everyone's jokes, including my own. I'm not an actress yeah but um it was healthy and it was happy yeah it was we work work work and then you

go home and you have your life yeah I was also obsessed with um dominoes at the time so I was leaving work and going to Venice to play with the oh really so you've got a thing for tile games well i learned on fresh prints yeah how to play and i i got really into it yeah so i went down i was looking for a game yeah and and i found one at the basketball courts in venice um and it became like this whole thing because theoretically if you keep score they let you sit down next. And they kept taking my seat and not letting me sit down. And then finally

I kept coming they let me sit down and I could actually play and I knew all the slang because I'd been taught on Fresh France and I was quiet fire. Character.

I loved it. I loved it. And I met amazing people and it was also during OJ and all that stuff. It was a really interesting time. To hear the reflections on the street? Yes.

Yes. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And what were their arguments in that community? It was, can I swear? I don't know. Yeah.

Okay. So, you know, we'd be sitting and they'd be talking about it. They were like, motherfucker, it's guilty, blah, blah, blah. And then cops would pass by and they'd yell, no justice, no peace. And it was just, okay. And that game ended, actually, because they kept breaking tables. Because when you had a really good bone, you'd slam it sometimes. And the rec department just stopped replacing the tables.

And that's when the game went away? It sort of faded away. So on Tracy, she was a good leader she was amazing everyone would talk for a long time and then we'd figure out our theme or whatever and everyone would go off and write and as I said on Wednesdays she'd come back

and she'd perform all the sketches out loud with the writers as the other parts and there'd be wine with lunch and she made everything come alive and and this is like really dealing but that that's a a to to obviously like thematic or become something you're known for but that is a woman driving the show yes with you know and dealing with issues totally that are specifically you know women's issues and women's character in front of the camera which is amazing amazing. And being hilarious. Yes. All right, so you do three years with Tracy.

Are you still in touch with her? Sometimes. Is she all right? She's great. I mean, yeah, she's great. Good, good. And what, so is that, do you do, are you a showrunner or just a writer? Oh, I'm the baby in that room.

Okay. And. So you get a producer's credit after a year? No, there's a whole pecking order. So you get a producer's credit after a year? No, there's a whole pecking order. It's staff writer, story editor, co-producer, producer, supervising producer, co-exec, and exec. A lot of those don't entail jobs.

No. A lot of them don't entail jobs. It's just a money bump. Right. And you're climbing the ladder. Right. Yeah. So you were just a writer? I was just a writer.

I might have gone up to producer. I think I did. Yeah. But I mean, but your job. Yes. You just a writer? I was just a writer. All right. I might have gone up to producer. I think I did. Yeah. But I mean, but your job. Yes. Was you a writer. Yes. And then what happens after that?

I keep going back to Tracy, but I take other jobs in between. Yeah. And I did a short-lived WB show, which was another good lesson, sort of. What was that? First time out, I think. You just took a gig. Jackie Guerra. Oh, right.

I think my friend Craig Anton was there. He was. Yeah, yeah. And that was actually a friendly room. And the showrunner lived in Colorado and was going back and forth and trying to make it work. So sometimes he wouldn't be there and the whole room would sort of take turns and it was very hard to pull off as a quality show but we all learned how to sort of do the job do the job which was really nice because the guy wanted to be in Colorado yeah

that worked out very pretty in Colorado. That's interesting. So what, you know, what was the job when you, when you think about it at that moment, like it's your turn, you just. Yeah,

yeah. You, you, you are the head coach. Right, right. In the writer's room. Yeah,

yeah. You were saying, we're going to work on this now. This outline's missing stuff, you know. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sure. Yeah. And, and it really was fairly democratic. We were. Wow. We took turns. And they were nice people in that room.

And I had come out of other rooms that were not very nice. So between Tracy and that, it was very healing, especially Tracy as a role model, incredible role model. Yeah. And then I did Mad About You. I did A Year on Gililmore girls that was a big show people love that show yeah did you love it which gilmore girls gilmore girls was complicated because it's amy's show yeah and they forced her to have a staff and she really didn't want one and so she would never come in the room yeah and uh Or she'd come in and say, all right, give me some ideas.

And then she'd go. And she wrote that show. Yeah. And I felt bad. It was almost like, why? I understand that the studio wants insurance, but it should have been her way. It was her show. Yeah.

It did all right despite that, right? It did great. And she took help, but the first year, I don't think she knew how, and she was still raging because they sort of shoved the staff down her throat, so it was a little hard. It's always amazing to me that there are people, like when you hear about these guys, like, you know, just the fight to keep these successful shows going and the ego is necessary. It's like, I got an ego, but but like i don't have the commitment or the discipline to be that but there's a lot of ways to do it oh i know you do it in a very nice way

i mean the third the the third thing that showed me how to run a nice show was peter tolan i did he's like a genius right that guy unbelievable really kind but an asshole to the right people right like papa hen you know kept, he protected his staff. What was his big thing that made him so, like, was he? Oh, the Dennis Leary. Well, no, before that. Like, he was a known guy, right? Yes, he was.

I can't remember, like, because, like, yeah, Dennis, he did Rescue Me, and he did the other one, too, I think. He's worked with Dennis a lot, but he came from, like, was it Cheers, maybe, or something? Maybe. I don't know, But he was fantastic. What show was that that you were working on? It was called like Wednesdays, 8.30, 9.30 Central or something like that. It had a terrible title.

And it was basically a send up of execs. So it was not going over well behind the scenes. Yeah, yeah. But Peter was, it was the first time I got rewritten that was better. Oh, really? Very often it's a lateral move or pissing in the corners. Right. And Peter Tolan was a genius and kind and fun.

Yeah. And it's like, wow, he made it better. I understand why. And it was enlightening. And you didn't resent it because it's. You couldn't argue with it. No. But the first moment was sort of like, well, what's this guy got?

And then you're like, oh, shit. Yeah. I remember I had written some line about someone's ass. Yeah. I don't even remember what my line is. But he changed it to flat and wide like Kansas. And sometimes he played the piano in the room. Yeah.

He was just delightful. So you got lucky with a string of people. I got lucky with some. And then, you know, there were other dysfunctionals. The year I was on Mad About You was not a particularly functional year. Was it towards the end? Yeah, middle to end. But every year while I was staffing, I was also writing pilots.

Yeah. And making script deals and writing more pilots. So when was the first, your show, when was the first Jenji Cohen show? There was an ABC show we developed. I can't remember if we shot it or not. Wow. And then there was a CBS show that went for like six, which was a disaster. What was that?

a CBS show that went for like six which was a disaster what was that it was about um children of adult parents who are divorcing and how it affected you created it I did and you can't remember the name it was a terrible experience who was in it um an amazing cast it was Judith Light Robert um Klein uh one of the Judd Apatow gang was one of the kids and what happened was i wrote this pilot oh okay the stone yes that was it jay baruchel yes jay baruchel who's really fun and has a maple leaf yeah yeah he's a like i like that guy and lindsey um sloan yeah who we underserved. And it just was. So what happened was this, and it was terrible. It was a Warner Brothers show, and I had written the pilot,

and they had bought it, and they felt I wasn't seasoned enough. And so they brought on my brother and Max to guide. Mutchnick, his partner partner to oversee. Which was really galling because I had started writing television while David was still an assistant, but he had this meteoric rise. Your brother. Yeah. And all of a sudden, I thought, all right, they'll let me do my thing,

and it did not work that way. And one weekend, they rewrote the pilot. So now this is causing family problems. Huge. And I realized I was intruding on a marriage. You know, David and Max were this unit and it was very threatening to Max, certainly. And it was a disaster. And it was, looking back, I should have quit. I should have left.

It was totally painful and it affected my relationship with my brother for a lot of years really who I was very close with now we have breakfast every Friday now it's good again but it was it was sort of devastating and that's when I went to cable and it was just, I traded money for freedom. Yeah. And that's with Weeds. That started with Weeds. Yeah. Now, how long had that sprint?

Was that one of the pilots that you had done? No. I remember when I would pitch, I had a scattershot method. Yeah. And I would, how about this? How about this? It was like one liners. Yeah.

And Weeds was suburban widowed pot dealing mom. Yeah. And go with it. widowed pot dealing mom. Yeah. And go with it. Where did that come from? Where did that, like, do you know? I mean, that's a very Carver-like story. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm not sure. I was very attracted to and still am the gray areas. I hated the idea of heroes and villains. Sure. And, you know, I'd grown up in L.A. I knew a lot of mom pot dealers. Yeah. And, you know, I'd grown up in L.A. I knew a lot of mom-pot dealers. Yeah. Oh, you did, yeah.

Yeah. I remember going to a friend's house and opening the vegetable crispers and seeing. And one of my brothers tried to grow in his closet for a while. Before hydroponics, before the lights and everything. Yeah, yeah. The good stuff. Yeah. So that took. That took. Yeah, yeah. The good stuff. Yeah. So that took.

That took. And yeah. And the first year, that was rough because I went in saying, look, I've traded my network career. I'm going to do this my way. And there was a lot of friction with the network and not the network.

It was Showtime? Who did it? Yes, Showtime. Actually, yes, with the network of friction with the network and not the network. It was Showtime? Who did it? Yes, Showtime. Actually, yes, with the network, friction with the network and some friction with Mary Louise but my attitude was, I'm not relinquishing control this time.

This is my business. I mean, how does that friction happen? I understand, like a first season, everyone's kind of like looking for their territory and looking for their peace and their control and their voice in it right but i mean obviously it leveled off but i mean yes in success everything gets better but until they know they're up your ass and so because they they want to trust you but they don't of course and in show business there's no reason to necessarily unless someone's got an incredible pedigree of some kind.

Right. And even then, everyone has a flaw. Right. But I'd get notes from Showtime and I'd write these long emails explaining note per note why I was not taking the note. And I think it got very frustrating. And at one point, I just got an email back that said fine do what you want and I think the intention of it was to say

no I'm sorry let's work together and I took it as a carte blanche thank you I will it's done well it could have been the other thing it's like well fuck her let her fail and we washed our hands of it

we did what we could but you did you're like yay no it was great. And I had a great staff. I think if you really think about historically in dealing with executives, if they wash their hands of you, it's usually not a good side. But you just took it as like.

Oh, it was the best. It was the best. Now, OK, there's another question, like, you know, starting with weeds. Is that there's always a question I have because you know having the little experience I had it writing my own show and also with with doing glow which is my really my first real acting job on a series as not me for the most part is that you know cuz weeds goes a lot of places like I mean locations you know you know characters I mean it's all like literally you're crossing continents right now do you know that at

the beginning no no but some people do right some people definitely do some people have a bible yes and they like and i always wonder who first of all i never want a bible because it locks you into things and it should be more malleable and also you get to know the characters and you know as they evolve and become who they are in front of you. Right. You're like, well, now we know what we can do with this person. Right. Exactly. Because like on GLOW, I noticed that like once they got the hang of me as an actor and as a person and what I was doing with that guy, they could write for me because they were still writing.

Oh, we heard your voice in our heads. You were crystal clear. And the sound of you was now, had now penetrated the cortex. Yeah. Which was awesome. I do every show one year at a time. Yeah. I'm not thinking about the future. I don't know what the future is.

Let's focus on this season, where we're going to end. Yeah. And go from there. And that went for eight seasons. Yeah. And it was great. Everybody, like, you know. It was lovely.

Yeah. And you were happy with it? You were happy with the way it ended and everything else yeah i was i was i was sad that it ended because you build a real family right i built a family i was running the production the way i wanted and i was i was experienced enough to know that this is as good as it gets right like i'd created an environment an environment and a show where I had learned from mistakes of the past. I had learned from shows what I didn't want to do, what I did want to do. And even

though it gets exhausting to keep writing the same show with the same characters, I knew how good I had it and I was really nervous to let that go. Did you let it go? Did you stop it? No, they did.

Yeah. And eight years is a good run. Yeah, definitely. But everyone in the room was like, quick, quick, write another show, because when you don't have something on the air, you disappear. You're back to zero. And I was panicked. And so while I was doing Weeds, I had gotten Orange.

And toward the end, when we were doing the finale, I was running up and downstairs to two different writers' rooms, starting Orange and finishing Weeds. Yeah. And in a way, I feel like I didn't get to mourn. I didn't have time. Yeah. And I kind of regret that because there's grief with the ending and spending eight years of your life. And the whole point of orange had been to bring the whole weeds crew over and then we had to shoot in new york and it was really difficult

how many went very few because you got to hire local crews yeah um i had uh carly and steven came on in different carly the co-creator of Glow. And Steven Falk, who does You're the Worst, who's terrific. Yeah, and it was sort of heartbreaking, but I couldn't deal with that because there was a new baby, and I had to take care of the new baby. And then there was a little rivalry between the rooms. You like them better. Oh, really?

It's interesting. Yeah, but so what was the seed for Orange? to read between the rooms. You like them better. Oh, really? It's interesting. Yeah. But so what was the seed for Orange? Orange, a friend of mine had sent me the book to read on vacation. She lived in Brooklyn. She knew Piper and Larry. Yeah.

And I read it, and I loved the characters. I loved, and I was always looking for these crossroads where people who would never ordinarily meet are forced to deal with one another. Very often that happens in underground economies like in weeds. And that was completely the situation in Orange. And what is compelling about that to you? I love the confrontation with the other. I love forcing that because I think it's enlightening.

I think it's the only way you really make progress. And also in these, you know, in the outlaw territories, it's not, you don't have to hide much. Right. Because, you know, everyone knows the truth to a certain degree, unlike an office situation. Like you're always meeting, you know, new people and having to deal with new people. But you have to play by these set of rules. Right. And honor the business. like an office situation. Like you're always meeting new people and having to deal with new people, but you have to play by these set of rules and honor the business. And just paths crossing.

I think we live more and more in a mosaic world and you don't go over your tip, you know? And this forces people to deal. I remember getting some criticism on weeds because why do the black people have to be drug dealers? I was like, the white people are drug dealers. They're all drug dealers it's not specific um how do you like the how much criticism like that do you i mean i don't imagine you get it with orange but like it's like isn't

there like a line with what is fundamentally progressive criticism you know that doesn't take into mind that some things are situational, counterproductive sometimes? Absolutely. Absolutely. Look, I'm not necessarily politically correct. And I'm okay with that. Yeah.

And I want to invest in my shows and my characters and what I find funny and what the room likes. Are you getting critical emails from the prison population? Not particularly. It was interesting because I was visiting a prison and I was meeting a bunch of people and they were being very cagey, sort of intimating that they'd seen the show, but they couldn't claim they'd seen it because then people would know they had an illegal cell phone. So it was like, oh, I've heard about heard about that you know but we really like it um but then they couldn't they'd blow their

have you gotten feedback from the uh prison industrial complex i mean you know actually interestingly enough a lot of guards watch the show and like it um people when they get out we hear things yeah like what well one of the scary things, I have stories, don't you want my stories? It's like, no. Yeah, right. It's a legal gray area.

But just you really captured it. Oh, good. You did well. And other times, you know, everyone has a different experience and some people, that's not it at all.

Sorry. Yeah. That wasn't my experience. Right. It was a different prison, I would say. Right. But also like, you know, like in terms of dealing with, I mean, I have to assume that you are being credited with this, like you employ a lot of women.

Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? But just by virtue of the show, it doesn't feel like a mission. No, it's what I think is the normalization of it. Yeah. No, it's what I think is the normalization of it. It's not. And before your gender, it's about talent. Right. That's the, and I'll take talent in any package.

Sure, but you wrote a lot of female characters. Oh, absolutely. So, yeah. Well, also, I had this source material that was in a women's prison. And also, I think you were the first to really deal aggressively and honestly and uniquely with trans issues. Yeah. That was a big deal. Yeah.

And it was more accessible than what Jill was doing later. You know, like it completely made sense. But didn't Jill invent trans? No. No, I'm kidding. According to a small group. Right.

Well, I mean, the weird thing about Soloway's thing is like, the story was so bizarre it had to be real. And when you find out it's real, it's like, whoa. Well, it was interesting because a year before Transparent,

we'd gone to the desert for an arts and crafts thing with our kids. Oh, you. Jill was there and I was there and a bunch of people. Oh, you guys are buddies?

Yeah, we've known each other for a long time. And after the kids went to sleep, we played this game called Family Secrets. Yeah. Where people write things and put them in a hat and you pull it out and you try to figure out whose it is. And if you can't, you put it back, whatever. Someone pulls out a slip of paper. Yeah.

It said, my father is currently living as a woman named Carrie. Yeah. And we're like, oh my God, who is this? This is amazing. And it turned out to be Jill. And it was a great quote. She said, look, as a child, oh, my God. As a writer, oh, my God.

And it was fabulous because you could see the wheels were already turning. Yeah. And she had said, you know, she was always writing these pilots where a sister was missing or a family member was missing. And she said, maybe I internalized this and I knew on some level. Oh, that there was a denial there. That, like, it was a truth that couldn't be told. I guess. Huh. told i guess huh but all right so the the the idea that it's not the agenda is not like i'm gonna i'm gonna work with women this is a feminist idea in fact i was actively discouraged because i mean infamously you know i i did not have the best relationship with my uh lead in weeds although

it got better yeah um and the whole room was like write a show about guys right all guys and it was the desperate housewives era and it was like you do not want that situation right um but i'm glad i didn't believe it well what do you i mean that that's a specifically you know male perception of that sure Sure. And it's situational, I imagine. Because it seems that with Orange that you've got another real community there. Totally. You know, and alumni. Well, yeah.

We set it up that way. I mean, a lot of it was very deliberate because it was such a huge cast. There's a lot of women, a lot of people for whom it was their first TV job. Yeah. And we set a tone of like, this is a group, this is a family. Right. You support each other. You compete for the work, you know, competitively in the scenes.

Right. And it was sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. And they bonded and they support each other's work outside the show. And they make each other better in scenes and um it was it's amazing well i think that's that's the the weird bad rap these ideas that you know women are worse than men with fighting and this and that and and i i don't know any of that and grow up with sisters i don't my my only experience with the with a lot of women is on glow glow how did how did it go for you? It was great. Yeah.

Because like I'm not, you know, I'm not that, like right away I realized like, well, I can't sit with them. Oh, no. No, not in a bad way. But like there was an intensity, an energy to, you know, 12 to 14 women sitting, you know, between takes together, you know, talking. Like I was just like, I'm going to be exhausted.

Uh-huh. That's not untrue. Yes. Right? I mean, that was really, it was just, yeah, it was just a matter of me, like, I got to stay in this guy. You know, I'm not, my boundaries aren't that great. Right. You know, holding the characters is about all I can do.

And if I go over there, I'm just going to be, you know, emotionally shredded. But that's also an actor thing there are some actors i find who thrive on that energy and others who have to but i also knew that i had to have a certain like that whatever control i thought i had over that situation as a character was was pretty tenuous it would be undermined if you were in the middle well yeah because it was already you know being undermined and i couldn't i couldn't admit it you know but i i uh but you know i got to know everybody and it was very it was very moving to me to just because i you know i'm pretty emotional and that the uh you know just to see like if i go to a musical you know for no other reason than there are a lot of people singing you know i'm crying right so like you know when they got in that ring even for you know once the first scene which is the you know the

fight with betty and allison that's a real fight i was like choked up right because it's intense and it has an uh that's the ring has an intensity right all right so how did that you know what was the process of of glow happening so i'd work worked with Carly on both Weeds and Orange, and I think she's wildly talented. I'm a fan. And she went to work on Nurse Jackie for one or two years and met Liz. And they had watched the documentary.

But they knew each other before. They're both playwrights. Yeah, there's a whole playwriting community. I've hired a lot of them. They're both playwrights. Yeah, there's a whole playwriting community. I've heard a lot of them. They're great with voice. You would hope. Yeah, yes, you would hope. And they watched a documentary about Glo and fell in love.

And fell in love with the women, fell in love with the world, fell in love with the time period. And I'd been hoping carly would do a show for a long time and her level of enthusiasm with this and they wrote a script and i didn't love it and i i gave my thoughts and they had their thoughts and they didn't necessarily take mine but the next script they did of it it was like it all came together what was it that what was it that was the uh the thing honestly i don't remember the specifics of it, it was like it all came together. What was it that was the thing? Honestly, I don't remember the specifics of it.

But you like the world. Do you like the idea? I love the world. And I felt like that very first draft, I wasn't sure. And then they kept coming back. They're like, no, we have a vision. This is it. And they showed me.

And after that, it was like, I'm on board. I'm here. Yeah. And that was that yeah yeah it's a weird like watching it is i only watched the first five i don't know why i didn't get to see the other ones but um because they weren't uh available yeah yeah right but uh like it's like i have to deal with watching me as an actor and then watching the show but it does kind of it's the the show within the show the wrestling and that journey for the women in that and then the

drama behind it there's something there's a balance there. Because you know from doing the other two shows you've done that shit can get pretty dark. And there's no reason some of this stuff in GLOW shouldn't be like, holy shit, menacingly dark. of the teamwork and the commitment to the craft of wrestling and becoming these other people, these superheroes, balances out in a very odd way. It's good. But there was moments where I'm wondering, this should be more upsetting, but they're going to wrestle.

Right, right. No, it's that balancing act always. Because you have to have a dramatic spine always. And then you you know, you sprinkle in moments and I'm a big fan of slamming comedy up against drama.

Yeah, yeah, you got to. And Allison's genius. Everybody's so good. Everyone's so good. And I'm actually impressed that you watch, I know so many actors who can't watch themselves.

I've learned to do it. You know, like, I've learned to do it with comedy because, you know, that's, you know, I'm confident in that finally. Like, I can watch it objectively and know. Yeah, I've learned to do it with comedy because, you know, that's, you know, I'm confident in that finally. Like, I can watch it objectively and know.

Yeah, I was going to say, it takes a certain level of self-confidence and a certain level of liking yourself. It takes, yeah. And like, and accepting yourself. Yeah. And like, over the years, like, I can watch comedy and go like, that could have been better. This could have been better. I can make choices.

I can watch myself do it and know where I'm at and not, you know, feel horrible. But I used to. Right. But acting's different. Like, because like, when you watch yourself acting, you're in it right then. You're like, why didn't I? How come I just?

Why'd they cut it there? I want to rewrite everything when I'm watching. You do? Oh my God. And why didn't we get this? And are the colors wrong? And I nitpick. When we start every season,

we do a marathon of the last season. You do? The writer's room. So we go at 7.30 in the morning and we leave after dark and we watch the entire season in one go with breaks for lunch and dinner and breakfast lunch and dinner and beer um and it's amazing because it's the experience i think some people are having of just being washed in it and it really gets you you prepped to say, okay, we see where we ended. Where are we going to go from here?

Get back in it, yeah. But I start watching and it's just like, oh, what was, and you can't fix anything. It was very frustrating. But the weird thing about that kind of stuff is like what I've learned from doing this show or from doing the podcast is that, you know, after it's all done

and you having those thoughts, all you can do is keep it to yourself because you're going to deprive someone else of experience. Whatever you decided on is what it is. I've had people on here that I didn't think the conversation went well, and I do the intros after. And after one time saying, well, I didn't think it went that well, people, they got mad at me for saying that, number one. It diminished their ability to take the conversation in a nonjudgmental way. And a lot of times I'm completely wrong because how anyone else responds to something

has got nothing to do with your dumb insecurities. People don't know what's not there. You could be in love with a line that you cut and it's... Yeah, they don't know. They don't know. And you don't want to give it to them. That's why I almost, I used to have a real problem with releasing the songs that didn't make it or outtakes or whatever.

They're fun, but it's like, you know, the decision's been made. Well, it becomes its own animal. I think it's yours until it leaves the printer and then it really becomes everybody's baby. Yeah, definitely. Takes a village. It does. So, like, you got this whole, like I haven't been down to,

I only went to the one read-through. I'm so surprised I wasn't more terrified and nervous. No, everyone was, you were a cool customer. Because like, it's so weird. I didn't expect it to happen.

Like, there's part of me that like, you know, I had all these ideas of doing all these things when I was younger as a comic. I didn't do a show. And then somehow or another, like everything worked out at a certain level in this day and age where, you know, I had all these ideas of doing all these things when I was younger as a comic. I didn't do a show. And then somehow or another, like everything worked out at a certain level in this day and age where,

you know, I didn't have the pressure of being a mega star and I had a certain amount of freedom. You can still go get a cup of coffee. Right. But, you know, I did everything I wanted to do. And like one of the things I hadn't done was act, you know, in any real way in a series. And it was like a, it was a fluke. So there was part of me was sort of like, okay, yeah,

I'll put myself on tape. But like, it was a relief that like, it's not on me. You know, I just got to do my job the best I can do it.

And then, you know, that, you were saying, it was interesting. You were saying that when on the pilot, I remember,

well, the first episode, I remember you coming back to check the screen and you were still sort of in producer. You had to do everything. And I may be speaking for you, but it seemed liberating for you when you finally were like,

all I have to do is act in my scenes. This is it. I'm going to relax now. It's lovely. But I remember you feeling like you should have been checking takes. Yeah. Yeah. It was weird because that's what you do when you're on a show.

And I was in the show that I was on. So I was always running back. Do we get it? Was it not? But that, I think that because of that, it did develop a communication with, with the writers. Sure. And, and I, I didn't have major fights with them and, and, and I was very, they weren't

real fights. They were suggestions and it was good. It was good. At a certain point there, the actors really know their characters. You knew your character. And the writers need to listen because that person's inhabiting this role. And the actor's instincts about it have to be honored. Yeah.

There wasn't that many. There wasn't. And they were great. They were all great. I enjoyed working with them. there was oh but your your office that whole place back there yeah did you buy that building i did what was it it was the rita hayworth rita hayworth's dad yeah uh it was his building and there were um dance studios upstairs and uh at the time there was a tiki restaurant and a theater for the productions.

What kind of shape? It took two years to renovate. Really? Yeah. And you shoot stuff there? No. You don't? We don't, although we're renovating the theater now.

As a screening facility? Or live theater. There's a guy from the improv who's interested in starting his own thing. Oh, yeah? We're talking to. So you're going to make it available to kind of lease-ish? Yeah. Yeah.

Although I knew it because when I was a kid, it was the Vagabond Theater. And I used to go there and watch old double features. And so part of me really wants to put in the infrastructure for screenings also. You want to open a revival house? Kind of. But I mean, it's not going to...

Not like Quentin Tarantino in a grindhouse revival house, but like classic double features. Right. Yeah. I don't know what I'm going to do, but there's part of me that's like, I should honor this space

and put the movies back. So you're still doing press? I don't do that much press. Yeah. I, I hate it. Yeah. And,

everyone wants to see the actors anyway. Yeah. It's fine. That's the other beautiful thing about doing this, about doing press for this. Like I went out with, we did a junket in New York, me and Betty and Allison.

And I'm like, talk, it's your show. right it's great it's just like i well i saw i watched some footage because you just sit there with a lot of different outlets and like i watched two of them it's just me looking at allison talking well she has a lot to say it's terrific oh it was great but you got to get in there you have a lot to say no i know i do but i like i have to fight the urge because like you know coming from what i come from, it's been years of just pick your moments and shut the fuck up if you can. Right. You know what I mean?

Because as a comic guy, you're just sort of like, I'm going to. And then you're like, I don't know. Just hanging back a minute. That's discipline. But now with this show, it seems to me that you only got to really know maybe five of us or four of us in the first season. And there's so many. It could go on forever. Yeah. And we don't even know what any of us or four of us in that first season and there's like so many. Like it could go on forever.

And we don't even know what any of those characters can do or where they can go. Yeah, you want to start this engine that can run for a long time. Was casting like amazing for GLOW? It was amazing. It was, first of all,

I think Jen Houston is great at her job. She is. She does all this stuff. I've known her since she was a kid. And she loves unusual people. You don't get the same faces. She advocates. And then there's so much talent out there if you give people a chance.

But it was hard in that you're going to have to go into training. It's going to be super physical. It's so great to watch them all do it. It's a show about bodies in a lot of ways yeah and um i tend to think having done so many pilots um and and having fought really hard for it i've really learned that when the process is relatively easy you go with it's meant to be. If you are pushing a rock uphill, I don't know. I think the universe conspires to make what should be.

Right, more difficult. And you've got to listen to that. And I know people who are like, oh, it's too easy. This is not good. I don't trust it. But I think that's when it's great because it's supposed to be in the world.

That's very back to Miss Charlotte and woo-woo. Yeah, yeah. But I feel that way. If there's an ease to it, I guess people don't trust it because they think it could always, like it's that compulsion that you seem to manage is that if you have that drive that's founded in being hard on yourself, you're always going to think it can be better or different.

Well, that's true. Right, but like that can pollute if you know, if you don't delegate. Yeah. You have to delegate, right? Yeah. And at a certain point, you'd have to let go. You have to put your baby out. I forgot the story I wanted to tell you.

I don't know if you know it. It was, you know, because Carly and Liz, they're kind of nerdy. They're the best, yeah. And I'm like an old monster on some level. And I remember I made a couple of decisions about the character right at the beginning, like the glasses and that the way he did Coke was going to be out of a bindle with a key or with a pen top. I remember you being very specific about that.

But when I told them that, I said, he's not flashy. He's a user. It's all practical. And I just went off on this rant rant and they're both looking at me. And I think it was Carly just goes, we're so glad you're here. Yeah. Yeah. They were always good girls.

Exactly. It's just I saw their face. You gave them a little dirt in their sandwich. I think it's good. It's important. Good. Good. Well, it was great talking to you.

How do you feel about it? Lovely talking to you too. You feel good, right? I want to rewrite the whole thing. You do? Like which part? No, I'm fine. All right about it? Lovely talking to you, too. You feel good, right? I want to rewrite the whole thing, but I'm good. Like which part? No, I'm fine. All right.

Thanks, Jenji. Thanks, Mark. What a smart, nice, decent person Jenji is. I was happy to talk to her. Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTF pod needs. There's a new poster up there from my buddy Chris up in, where was that? It was at, yeah, the Portland poster, right? Yeah, the Portland poster's up. I like it.

I like it. It's up there at WTFpod.com in the merch area or whatever it's called. And get on the mailing list. I will email some stuff. Today, usually, it comes out. I email every every week i write you all a very nice letter i can play some guitar why not why the fuck not uh yeah Boomer lives! Boomer lives!

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