WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 824 - Jason Mantzoukas

Episode Date: June 28, 2017

Jason Mantzoukas is a great improvisational comedian, which you would know from seeing him in shows like The League, on podcasts like How Did This Get Made? and in movies like The House. As he explains to Marc, it was only after undertaking a global musical quest, having mystical experiences in foreign lands and being jailed in Morocco that Jason realized his true calling was comedy, which is still the one thing that quiets his fears and anxieties. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are ya, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckocrats? What the fuck publicans? And the what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckocrats what the fuck publicans and the what the fuck nicks of course the protest folks how's it going what's happening the way is did i ever say what the fuckies why haven't i not said what the fuckies i must have said it somewhere anyways how are you i'm mark maron this is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. I hope you're doing okay.

Today on the show, Jason Manzoukas. He's a comic actor, and I didn't know anything about him. You can also, well, I did know things about him. I'd seen him in everything, but then I also know he did the podcast, How Did This Get Made, with Paul Scheer and June Diane Raphael. I knew that, but I didn't know what he would be like, but he's a fucking great guy. Fucking great guy.

Nice guy, solid, present, and he brought me a gift. So right out of the gate, I was like, wow, this is all good surprises. So he's on the show, Jason Manzoukas. You'll hear me talking to him in a few. One thing I did want to say right here at the beginning is I know because of GLOW, the gorgeous ladies of wrestling, a show which I am on, and I'm still getting beautiful and very, I'm very grateful for the feedback I'm getting. I had no idea that it would turn out to be so amazing. But there are a lot of new people here listening to this show,

so I'd like to invite you. I'd like to invite you to check out the more than 800 episodes in our archives. You can start a Stitcher Premium membership today. You can go to stitcherpremium.com slash WTF and then use the code WTF for 20% off. And then you'll have access to, I don't know if you figured it out yet, the most recent 50 are always free. So that means that every episode is up for public consumption for six months. And then they slowly go behind the archive wall, which, as I said, is available at Stitcher Premium.

Except for the President Obamaama podcast which is always available always a evergreen and always uh a bit soothing uh if you're of a certain ilk so that's there but i just wanted to give you a heads up because i know a lot of you are new to the show some interesting questions coming at me because of my performance in the the netflix series glow uh one that i seem to get a lot is like hey man did you start smoking again did you start smoking again sam sylvia your character is smoking all the time and doing blow did you start smoking did you want to do some blow how did it feel to do fake blow i you know and people ask me what is the blow made out of what is that blow what how do

they make fake blow i'm not sure what it is but i think it was uh something they added to real blow to make it uh less real i think it was one of i don't know if it's i don't know if it's mannitol or sorbitol or one of them i don't i don't think it's the one that makes you shit which i think is mannitol but it definitely is one of the talls and it's definitely something that they put into you know good blow to make it less good blow so did i want to do blow that uh you know after you know chopping those lines and rolling up that bill and you're taking it out of my pocket and doing a bump out of the bindle with the top of a big pen that's like that should be a lyric i'm doing a bump out of the bindle with the top of my big pen pow that was a very mild pow followed by a slight sizzling noise

it would have been much more exciting but the weird thing is i did not i did not i was not nostalgic for doing blow i did not want to do blow and I did get a little bit of a drip, but it was a very unsatisfying drip. You know, there was nothing. There was no payoff to going. There just no payoff. No nummies. No, you know, like throat nummies. No, like, you know, little kind of like secondary auxiliary bump from the collection of Coke goo in the back of your sinuses.

Nothing like that. It was just the action. It was just the ritual of doing it with no real satisfaction. I believe that the first time I did a little of the fake blow, I got a little placebo jolt from the fake blow. But no, did not have any desire, which a testament to uh sobriety and to the understanding of uh what it is to be powerless over drugs powerless over alcohol the knowledge to know that if i do this shit again it's probably not going to stop for a while it's not going to be

pretty and it's not going to take me any place new or good as for the cigarettes did not want to smoke cigarettes again i i it was amazing how how easily that shit comes back to you it is like uh riding a bike riding a a very dangerous bike that you know that it doesn't take any physical activity uh and uh eventually just becomes a shitty drain on your life. But yeah, I did not want to smoke. That's partially because I still do nicotine lozenges and I'm kind of buffered from that. So there's the answer to those two questions. If you have more questions about glow and the character of Sam Sylvia, feel you can

email me anytime. So I haven't done this in a while. I'm going to read a couple of emails. This one is for Pride Week. This just says the subject line is Patrice and gay stuff. Hi, Mark. First, thank you for being a true voice out there in this sea of bullshit and lies. Second, Pride Month is coming to a close.

And I've been reflecting on my own gay shit lately and the people who encouraged me to come out knowingly and unknowingly. Patrice O'Neill was one of those people. My interactions with him were brief but significant. I've heard you mention him often, and so I wanted to place this story out there in the world just to say thank you to him wherever it is we go when we die. When I was in my early

20s and not out i was an assistant to a comedy manager in new york city we managed patrice o'neill and bill burr and a few other folks for a brief period of time patrice was brand new and my boss knew he'd be big patrice saw me and within 10 minutes matter of fact we declared me to be gay it was innocuous i can't even remember the context. It may have even been, quote, so are you going to gay pride? He took one look at my dewy eyes and well-coiffed hair and knew. I think most people did, but he said it out loud. It wasn't mean. It wasn't hateful. It was just a true, curious observation. ill will, but it left me stunned, not because I felt attacked, but because I felt accepted, even though I hadn't accepted myself yet. I don't know his politics or how he felt about gays behind closed doors. There may even be tapes of him hating on the faggots. I have no idea. What I do know is that it helped me along in my self-acceptance process, that he could be so nonchalant about something that provided me with so much angst for so many years

gave me a moment to breathe and the courage to take the steps to fully embrace myself. After that, he fully farted in the passenger seat of my 1993 Ford Taurus. It was so bad, I had to do a spot check for possible remnants. This was both the blessing and the curse of driving him to a gig. So i wanted to thank him in some way and figured you could deliver the message it's been many years that i've been out and proudish uh gays do just as much stupid shit as the rest of us right gays for trump can suck it hard that was in parentheses i have him and other people like him to thank for making the transition much easier thanks man keep doing the good work you You do. Sincerely, Tom.

So, Patrice, if you hear this man, he thanks you. I miss him, man. Patrice was a powerful guy. And, man, yeah, he's one of those guys. Him and Geraldo. You know, some days I'm just like, fuck. I miss him. I miss running into those guys when I go to New York.

We'll get to Jason Manzoukas in a minute, but I want to read one more email. I like this one too. This one's got a nice narrative arc to it. Subject line, the other man was you, Mark. And when you see that subject line, there's a moment where I'm like, oh, fuck. What did I do?

When did I do it? And am I going to get killed? That's what that subject line did to me. The other man was you, Mark. I was completely ready to be like, oh, fuck. I remember that. But I was pleasantly surprised.

Here we go. Mark, I have to say my first contact with WTF was shrouded in a curious mystery of who the fuck is this guy and what the fuck does my missus want with him? You see, way back in 2010, my wife and I split and I was staring down the bottle of marriage number two over and done, except different from the first one ending. This time we had a kid to consider. I was dark as all fuck on her for her slight indiscretion. But, you know, I had one, too, that I paid paid no heed to I was all about fuck her for this and that in other words I was behaving like a

typical cuckold ass but anyway you came up because after some months of living in separate homes and lives etc I asked her what she was up to and if there was anyone she was interested in she replied casually I've been getting into Marin I asked who the fuck marin was and she said mark and that was that i was livid leaving nothing further explained i spent a few days fuming on who the fuck this mark marin was and i was all over the who's what's where's that we go through when building a mental concept of some fucking guy balling my ex-wife it wasn't until a week or so later i tentatively approached the subject with her of the new guy

when dropping off the little boy when she said you were on a podcast called WTF and I should check it out. Now you became the guy with a podcast that my ex was writing and I thought, who's this pretentious twat with a radio show?

Anyway, it worked out well as I finally got into checking out the other guy, listening into the podcast, bro, realizing how I'd concocted the whole thing in my big stupid head. And seven years later, I'm still tuning in weekly. And as it turned out, though, my time separated was doused in drink. I was listening to the other guy with similar shit to deal with. And you, Mark, turned out to be the guy who helped me get through it. Thank you for that, Mark.

and you mark turned out to be the guy who helped me get through it thank you for that mark my gorgeous ex and i spent four years apart before figuring out we were idiots and got back together and yes in some ways you still are the other guys when we are listening in together or watch your stand-up or now watch you on glow she turns to me and says mark is still my silver fox. Huh? Happy ending. Cheers for the years, man. Sincerely, Fabian. That's from Australia. That's a good story, right? That worked out well.

I'm glad. Thanks, pal. Glad to help out. So Jason Manzoukas. Oh, I mentioned that he brought me a gift. But here's the thing. I always have people come over and they do these things. talk to me and uh you know some of them know the show some of them have listened to the show because they're going to be on the show and you know yeah occasionally things people bring me stuff that you know they're promoting or whatever but jason

manzoukas who i've met a couple times who i do not know brought me this record it was a reissue of mingus ah um charles mingus record it was a nice piece of wax nice vinyl record and i just got into the original one that was a little beat up so this one was sort of like it was some sort of sign that i had to really get into this and i he just you know he knew i was getting into jazz you know he knew i was a vinyl guy he brought me this record that had a uh had meaning to him. And I listened to it and it's really one of the greatest jazz records ever. I texted him after I listened to it twice. I said, it's all here, man. The whole history of the whole thing is on this record. And it was just thoughtful and it was very nice. And I had no idea what we were going to get into. I know

he's in this new movie, The House with Will Ferrell and Amy Poehler. It's in theaters tomorrow, June 30th. I knew he was on the podcast, how this get made, but I didn't know him as a person. And we had, I just, I love talking to him. So this is me and Jason Manzoukas. Enjoy. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Are you self-employed?

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Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Boy. You're such a music freak. Do you have a lot of records? I do have a lot of records. Yeah, I do. Have you? I haven't counted them. I don't know how many, but like I. It's not that it's a, you know. But I have a ton of, I also did a thing where at the, like right, like through the end of college and through the years after college. Yeah.

I went around and just bought people's entire record collections. Yeah. So I also have like. But just people at school, you're just a guy going like, hey, you going home? You taking those records? People at school, but also just like at yard sales and hey, you're going home. You're taking those records. People at school, but also just like at yard sales and flea markets at any place that people were selling stuff. I like I have, I don't know, probably four hundred seventy eight.

Really? Just because I bought them all from one person. Now, wait, do you house them somewhere? They were up into. Yes, Mark, I do right now. Unfortunately, I up until a year ago had my apartment in brooklyn uh that i kept all this time and so it all lived there oh really it all lived in in a brooklyn apartment and so when people said can i stay at your apartment you're like no my records are staying there all of my records and books are there that was my big thing when i moved to la i was like no records no books clean i want to live minimally. Feels good, doesn't it? It does. My house is now full of records and books. It is.

Not the ones from Brooklyn. Nope. Although those have now made their way, but they're in a storage locker. I had to pull back because, well, the fascinating thing to me is that there was all this stuff. I grew up in a mainstream way, really. So I had a couple of people in my life that turned me on to things that were outside of the box. But it was you don't really realize until for me until like five years ago how how how small my periphery was. Sure. And there's all this other stuff. I may not like it, but there's stuff that exposure for me is huge. Like, I would say one of the most transformative people in my life, truly, was a guy named Steve Barrett, who I started taking drum lessons from in suburban Boston when I was 10 years old.

Yeah. And I took drum lessons with him until I went to college. Really? So, what, eight, nine years. Yeah. One of Steve Barrett's rules for taking drum lessons with him is every week you had to show up with a blank cassette. rules for taking drum lessons with him is every week you had to show up with a blank cassette and over the course of the lesson he would record two albums for you of hit from his record so you're at his house always at his house yeah and so every week i walked away with music yeah and it was from

age 10 from age 10 so but his taste was so i'm like a 10-year-old being given all the King Crimson records. Oh, wow. All of 70s progressive rock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From that to all reggae. He got super into reggae at one point, so I was like a 12-year-old who got obsessed with reggae. Right, right. You know, like everything.

My record collection, what I was digesting was so diverse, it was crazy. Now, when you were doing that, so you wanted to be a drummer? For sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And you can do it. For sure. I imagine you're still good at it.

I'm okay now. Now I'm just fine. You know, like, I was very good at it for those years, like, through college. But at, like, in my 20s, I stopped really playing. So when did you, like, you grew up where? I'd say Boston. Which town? Nahant, Massachusetts.

Nahant. Nahant's like North Shore. Oh, okay. By Marblehead? Yeah, just before Marblehead. It's like an island off the coast of Lynn, actually. Off of Lynn. Off of Lynn, connected by like a causeway.

Oh, right. So it's closer to Boston. Yeah, it's like seven miles from Boston. Than Marblehead. Yep. And that's where you were born and raised? Born in Lynn, technically. way oh right so it's it's it's closer to boston yeah it's like seven miles from bobblehead yep and that's where you're born and raised born in born in lynn uh technically we lived in lynn when i was born but very quickly moved to nahan yeah yeah i mean i know that area from doing stand-up there so like what what what kind of family would you you're what are you i'm greek i'm greek in

origin they're like my parents are greek they're all greek yeah like they speak greek they do uh oh they do they um they first generation my dad born in greece yeah comes over as a kid yeah my mom born here to greek parents what was uh what was the family business family business was my dad my dad worked in health care he worked in hospitals for many years. And then he started his own as like a very kind of, you know, immigrant-y kind of entrepreneurial. He owned and operated like assisted living facilities and nursing homes in New England, in like the Boston area. So a good hearted guy. Great. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, totally. And that's my first jobs were I worked as the assistant to the handyman in like a nursing home. You know, like those get like age 11, 12 doing like painting the railings or whatever. But you're around a lot of very old people. Very much. And a lot of old people for a long time. And it wasn't scary. No, no, it wasn't.

That is like that says everything. Does it? Yeah, that says everything. Does it? Yeah. That's it right there. Yeah. No, it was good. It was like an interesting thing. Well, you seem like a well-adjusted person.

I think so. And do you have brothers and sisters? I have a younger sister. Yeah? Yeah. She lives in Maine. Has two kids. We're in Maine.

She lives outside Portland. Oh. Yeah. All right. So you're growing up there. Yeah. lives in Maine has two kids we're in Maine she lives outside Portland oh yeah so all right so you're growing up there yeah you're going Lynn is like Lynn isn't that by Cambridge really a little east or like no it's further north you're basically going north up through like Quincy right uh Revere Winthrop like all those times right yeah yeah yeah uh Revere basically goes right into Lynn how'd you get out without uh sounding that? It pops up.

At some point over the rest of the day, you'll be like, there it is. You're like, there it is. The little thing? There's weird words that I'll say. A lot of them are like, I'll say popcorn or hot dog. Yeah, yeah. Which is a very Boston-y thing.

Or it'll come out with the words worry or sorry. People will sometimes be like, are you Canadian? And it really just like adjusting around the accent i never also my parents no i'm fighting boss yeah my parents never had solid accents like i didn't grow up in that accent very heavily because both my sets of grandparents spoke greek or didn't have that accent and so my parents didn't get it and so i didn't get it as much i got it socially yeah yeah yeah but like i would think in school like you know yeah it was certainly there i can do it but you know i'm sure you could do i can do it but uh but no i never had it as heavy yeah it really was just certain sounds or certain words it would be like there yeah you know

so so when you're when you're going to school there and you so early on you're like i'm going to be a drummer i 10 yeah that was your decision yeah well my parents said uh we you you have to take um lessons in an instrument you can choose the instrument yeah i chose drums yeah um and and loved it and was immediately obsessed um with just like every element of it so you go through high school doing that no theater no nothing no comedy uh no comedy in as much yes comedy um no theater uh but in junior and senior year i went i also like leslie stall recent guest of the on your show i went to swamp scott high school um because because my town was too small to have a school system beyond elementary school. Really?

There was too few kids to support it. Nahant's the smallest town, I think, in Massachusetts. It's like a one square mile island. So you knew everybody? Oh, beyond. You knew everybody. Island people. But it's not like Nantucket.

It's not like Nantucket because it's not a vacation spot. It's not a... But are you really on an island? Is there island mentality? Sort of like a little too insulated? Yeah. Oh, no. Very much so.

It's also much smaller than all those other islands. Right. So it's not just small. It's wildly isolated. It felt like, to me, like as a child... I go back now and it could not be a more idyllic Norman Rockwell-y kind of beautiful coastal New England town. Right. As a child, it was like a prison.

Right. It might as well have been like Alcatraz. Like out in the middle of the ocean. Fuck you. You can't go anywhere. There is no other towns. There's no stores. There's nothing.

But you knew the town drunk. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Everybody. You knew everybody and everybody's business and everybody. That's what it was. You know, it was, that's the time. That's what it was. You know, it was very much like that. Very Mayberry in that way.

Cause it was also had a little bit of a frozen in time nature to it. Like it was not, there were no stores. Were there other Greeks? No, no, there were no other Greeks. It was all Waspy, New England. You know, like I was like, we were like a minority family. Right. As, as, as Greeks.

Who are you European ancestry? Your last name. Oh yeah. Where are you from? Where are you? That's my favorite. Where are you from? Where are you from?

Jason, where are you from? Suspect. Yeah. Yeah. So, but the, what about the comedy? Oh, so junior and senior year, every, the classes would put on a variety show yeah and so me and my friend like wrote all the comedy sketches for those years of variety shows uh-huh and so that was for me like and i was like obsessed with comedy like i was like oh yeah no i was a kid who was obsessed with uh like sketch comedy yeah like i listened to like you

know the i would mow the lawn to like the first stephen wright tape when it came out all those guys i was aware of but i i watched snl every week i was like that when monty python started airing on pbs it was like huge to me yeah you know stuff like that was so it was planted yeah oh that's what i was really upset that when i got to college i immediately i heard it what got yeah when i got when i got got when i got to college when i got when i got to college mark let me let me tell you something when i got to college these guys when i got to college in vermont what are you still going to that school in vermont i saw i was walking down the street in new york city as like in my 30s yeah and a new york city

cop goes hey manzoukas and i was like oh fuck what have i done and i was like oh maybe this cop is like a fan or something i don't know but i wasn't really doing much at the time and it happened to be a kid i grew up with who was a boston cop and was on some sort of exchange first thing he says is hey are you still fucking allergic to eggs? And I was like, wow. A, amazing pull. And B, it sounds so good in that accent. Did you grow up with that guy?

Yeah. He was from my hometown. He was in my Boy Scout troop. That's why he remembered the eggs. He was like, I remember we always used to give you our cold cereal because that's all you could eat. That's a nice story. Yeah. We used to kick your ass because you couldn't eat eggs no no the other way that it really was like people people would look out for me in a weird way because they was like baked in vulnerability to me as a child and everybody knew it oh really

because i was like when i grew up there was nobody else had fatal food allergies it wasn't as predominant as it is now. So like everybody in my school was aware of it. Everybody in town was aware. All the Boy Scouts were. So it was as if it was as if everybody who are all these kind of tough. Yeah. Boston townie archetypes were with a boy made of glass.

Right. Who they'd be like, we got to carry the boy made of glass around. No eggs for this. Yeah, exactly. And then and then as a result, I become very funny, I think. And they're like, hey, you're funny. Yeah, yeah. Well, no, it is a hardened character there.

But it's weird because when I go back up there and I spent four, like seven years there, it's very intimidating. But they are a pretty caring bunch. They're very engaged. There's tremendous heart in there yeah um but there is it is such a gruff demeanor tough yeah that is trying to hide that heart yeah you know yeah they are you know it is i think it's the irish it's 100% the irish yeah that temper that flare that boom know, like. But also that sort of like, yeah, we're all fucked. Yeah.

Yeah. And I fucking love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, all of it. Yeah, yeah. It is. I do love it. I love that city.

I've grown to appreciate it. It's pretty great. It's weird when you go back. When you're in something, there's a menace to it, at least for a period of time. But then when you go back, as you get older,

you're like, this is great. Yeah. And then the nostalgia takes over. And you forget. I i get really and it makes me really like somebody was telling me a story recently about like oh man i was just i did a show in boston we were out to dinner and like these guys at the next table were like made a big deal about like what big fans they were and then they wanted a picture and we were like oh yeah can we just do it we're in the middle of eating can we do it when we're done eating and and it was like it was maybe within 10 seconds i thought i was about to be in like my first fight since high school like the guy was like oh you're fucking too good to take

a picture with me i just fucking told you i'm a fucking fan we were at your fucking show right and it's like boom and you you start to pay it's like the distance between a friendly compliment and about to get your ass that's who you are that's who you are you're fucking too good for me yeah mr fancy guy no no i don't need a picture no no you know what fuck it fuck you fuck it fuck you i'll be waiting fucking outside for you you little shit so did you were you in a band though in high school i was i was in a bunch of bands i was also in marching band i was in like the school and jazz band all the school bands and then you could read music right i could yep still can i still can yeah and then uh and then

i was in like rock bands i was in like bands that would be like we would do cover we i was in cover bands that would do like did you go into boston and play uh places we didn't ever we went and played like all the kind of stuff on the island all the no all the all the suburbs of right marblehead beverly salem all the kind of battle of the bands and kids bands in high school all the punk and hard kids it was also like punk hardcore era uh where there would be were you in one of those six bands i was in i was in a band that would play like Faith No More style, like Primus kind of proggy. We were better musicians.

Right, right. But like super aggressive stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was in a bunch of bands. Yeah. So you go to college. Yeah. You've written some comedy.

Yeah. Some sketch comedy, high school variety show. Sure, sure. You've played Primus. Yeah. You're ready to go to college. Yeah. You've got two you've got two uh two great skills yeah now what do you do when you get there do you

do you get in a band i do i get into a band and i and i get into and i start like a jazz group that i also play with like a just a straight ahead like kind of you know bebop yeah group essentially um and then um and then i also join what is like at the time like the college has just started or the people at the college have a group of young like a group of kids yeah i started an improv group yeah and so i joined that because right away i try out right away i don't get in until like the next semester right um And then become completely obsessed with that. You've never done it before. Never done it.

But you got a jazz brain and you got a funny guy. It's all improv. Right. For me, it's the same skill set just applied in different directions. Right, but this is a college improv group. So what are you doing?

You're doing games? We're doing short form games. Yeah. But two, and it's all the corny, it's all Whose Line Is It Anyway? Yeah. You know, corny games. But it's the first time that I'm ever like, you know, we would do like the variety show in high school or band, you know, concerts or whatever, like to a couple hundred people.

But like for some reason, because it was like, I went to school in Vermont, like small liberal arts college. Which one? Middlebury. Yeah. But like we would, this improv group would do shows to like six, 700 people for some reason oh really they'd all come out everybody would come and was there nowhere to go in town truly there was not it was a desolate place and so that was the first time i had like oh wow yeah this is fucking huge this room is enormous all these people are laughing they're going nuts it was it was super fun and then uh and then a guy named uh rod do

you know rodney rothman at all no he's a writer here uh in town um very successful um has worked on a ton of stuff he was in the same improv group that i was in and he went and interned in new york at like um at uh chicago city limits do you remember what that is sure yeah i do and he came back with truth in Comedy, the long form improv textbook, basically. And he was like, this exists. I've seen this. Was that the Del Close book?

Yeah. He said, this, this is the thing. This is it. We got to be doing this. He brought that back to college. Yeah. And so we all read the book. None of us had seen what like a Harold was

or what long form improv was. And you're what, a sophomore? Yeah. At this point, I'm a sophomore or I'm maybe a first semester of junior year, but I think're what a sophomore yeah at this point i'm a sophomore or i'm maybe a first semester of junior year but i think i'm a sophomore so this is one of those moments it's like the drum teacher a true epiphany yeah although misguided because we read the book and attempt to do it uh on a small scale we want to do it in like the coffee shop on campus but it's we are terrible at it and it's well what was what like what was the challenge at that time

because i don't i don't fully understand it okay so i mean it's like the difference between like big band and like bebop right like big band you're playing the chart you know like you really are adhering to structure yeah that's like the games short form games are limited in scope they are short in in format and they are a prescribed game so the idea of short form games is like conceptually speaking improv if everything is possible yeah you are more inclined to panic right and so everything you put on it is to restrict the possibilities right so short form games are incredibly restrictive so so much so that you really are only improvising a very small element

of the whole scene it's like shtick it's yeah you're just plugging in joke basically so short form is like from would that be an audience suggestion correct right okay we need a we need a non-geographic location and a profession and then now you know you're doing jokes about those two things and blah blah it doesn't matter yeah long form is like you're gonna get one suggestion the word is burrito yeah and you're gonna do like a 30 to 40 minute or longer depending show of different scenes connected scenes uh group scenes all of it that is born of that one suggestion yeah i've seen some of it at like ass cat or stuff like that right and so as a result you're seeing like something that is a lot more built from the ground up right than it is like right within the confines of a of a game

yeah or something so but when we read the book we were just like okay so i guess so the first part of it traditionally is of the herald is like a pattern game so if you say burrito is a suggestion great so for the first minute and a half yeah we half, the group as a whole does some sort of idea where they kind of take the word burrito or take whatever that inspires, and they examine it for a minute or so just to kind of generate a bunch of information. People might tell a story. People might whatever. It doesn't matter. A minute, minute and a half, right? Just to put some stuff on the table.

We used to do that for 15 minutes. And it would just be like burrito beans yeah rice tortilla yeah lunch sandwich yeah you're like and that this is what happened for 15 and no laughs so serious no laughs of course no last market we were doing nonsense it was terrible and we did this for a long time and then i and then eventually i went to new york and ucb was a long time and then i and then eventually i went to new york and ucb was just starting and i watched it and i was like oh this is what it was supposed to be doing it's supposed to be like joyful and fun and not austere and like breakfast breakfast cereals cocoa puffs captain crunch like a game show answers with no rule really that's what it was it was terrible but uh but that

so that started like that process of like improv uh comedy and like that's at that point and then i also ran the radio station at college and those are the two things i cared the most about you ran the radio station yeah like what you were the the manager i was i eventually was the programming manager eventually i started out as like the jazz manager then became you know because nobody wanted to do it literally i went to the first meeting yeah and nobody wanted to be they they assigned every other position and they were like okay the only thing we don't have is no it's jazz and i was like yes yeah and i was like just got to college and they're like okay you you and i was like that's it that's all it takes and i knew like i knew some stuff about jazz did you

have your records i had some of my records this was the best yeah the best thing that happens at the end of my freshman year the uh the gm came to me and said hey um we have not used our budget for the year and if we get to the end of the year without spending it we have to give it back so here's three thousand dollars to buy records with over the summer and so and i was like what he was like just bring them back with you when you come back to school he's like i just need to give this money out so that we don't yeah so i took that three thousand dollars and like the first week i was home i went to tower records or yeah one of the biggest record right stores. And I bought $3,000 worth of jazz.

And spent the whole summer just crushing it. Just consuming it. And then brought it all up. And it was the best summer because I bought everything. You built their library. I built their library. It really was. I built their CD library.

Did you mix it up? Did you do a big band? Yep, totally. You were a curator. I went from Dixieland and Ragtime like uh fats waller and all that stuff all the way through like fusion maha vishnu orchestra all the you knew you had a job you were a curator oh absolutely and i was very responsible i was very nerdy about it and would try and like turn people on to stuff and they'd be like i don't like this yeah i don't i don't like that was the other thing is i would always like play stuff for people like we were

looking at your records beforehand and there was a hoosker do record in there and i remember i got turned on to hoosker do like maybe eighth grade yeah yeah and i remember like bringing it to like a buddy's like house and being like dude this is amazing you gotta listen to this and like literally like that guy then not really being my friend anymore it's being like yeah you're into weird stuff yeah yeah you're into like weird music and then with jazz you're sort of like just hang out it's only a 15 minute tune it gets real good yeah the solo is amazing and that's the part that people have the most trouble with right i don't understand what's happening now but they must have been very grateful that you built out their

jazz library so were you on the air late at night or what we just sundays our our station was all four hours yeah oh yeah yeah and then and then as i got further into it i would just be on air all the time oh really because anytime we had holes in the schedule i would just go and i would just pick a thing that i wanted to become obsessed with or that i was slightly obsessed with and i would just do a deep dive into that thing like one artist or like africa or something like at one point africa i became obsessed with like uh sub-saharan african music like senegalese music molly uh all of it you know phala all that stuff like afropop all of it yeah um and would just be like great this is what i'm I'm going to do. And I'm going to do, I'm just going to get into this.

And there's, at the time, no internet. Yeah. There's no research. I just have the library that's available to us and what I can kind of read. Now, did you have any fans of the show? When I had my jazz show, this was the best. When I had my jazz show, people, it was, and when I tell you I was like on the radio, like, it was a 100 watt radio station that then became a 1,000-watt radio station.

So it reached basically the town of and the dorms. It was not like I was out on the air. But you were in it, though. But I used to get collect calls from the prison for the jazz show. Every week, a guy would collect from prison and ask for Miles Davis. Yeah. And you'd play it. That's your one guy.

Yeah. The one guy. And I was like, dude, I love this. Absolutely. And I was like, even if it's a prank, I still love it. Because you're playing Miles. You want me to play Miles? If it's a prank, sure.

You knew it wasn't a prank. I don't think it was. It seemed pretty real. So you're running the radio station. You're doing improv. You figured it out. When you went to New York york though was that the thing that made you realize like oh shit this there there's a world out here for this oh yeah absolutely i mean i'm at that point like pretty aware of second city i'm aware of groundlings like i know things exist i know that

there are hubs for this right um but i also very much want to move to new york city right you you didn't think about chicago you didn't get obsessed with del close and the whole legacy i did like i met del close and like i did at the um there used to be a like a skidmore used to do an improv festival every year for all the college groups yeah and they brought del one year like he was old maybe like four years before he died four years before he probably longer actually but not too much longer anyway and he came and uh and was like uh predictably dell close like a relentless prick to everybody yeah for the whole of it and it was it was awesome yeah you know it was really cool so he ran a seminar type of thing yeah he kind of gave notes to people as they did stuff but um so i was like very into it but i came to new york um did you graduate

graduated yep what was your degree in religion really yeah um in as much as i needed something to major in so you put it together at the end i liked that department. I tried being a philosophy major, but I am not a good enough student. And even a religion major. Like when I did my thesis, I wrote an honors thesis, went to my thesis defense, and my professor goes, Jason, his first line, Jason, you're not a great scholar. But thank God your gifts and graces lie elsewhere. So let's take this and put it aside. I can't give you honors for this. This was not very good.

Did you even proofread this? And I was like, Larry, I did not. What was it on? It was on religious iconography. It was, when I tell you, I wrote it in like maybe eight days. Yeah. And it was a hundred some odd pages. It was terrible.

He had every right to be like, I'm not giving you honors for this. But it was interesting that you picked like a fairly non-challenging, non-philosophical area. Totally. Like, let's look at this picture. If you asked me now about it, I could tell you zero. I could tell you not one single thing about it. But there must have been just a dearth of information of totems and talismans and relics and whatever. Absolutely.

Yeah. Bleeding icons, crying icons icon all of it yeah but it was enough that it was enough that it interested me and was within but here's the thing i didn't need to do it yeah it was like the arrogance of on my part to be like yeah i'll fucking write a thesis why not yeah no i've been that guy i auditioned at yale drama you know and i submitted a photo strip as, as my headshot. Okay. I love that. I love that.

I got this ace. That's great. These guys, they get it. Um, they don't, you can't, you know, charm only take you so far. Oh, absolutely. But, but in a great way, like that same thesis, like that, that, that professor who loved me and who I loved and who was like, you're just not, this isn't what you should be doing. He also was like, he would be the, this isn't what you should be doing. He also was like,

he would be the, he would do that. He did this. He goes, at one point we were, he was teaching a three hour new Testament class. Yeah. And in the,

in the middle of the whole thing, he goes, will you walk back to my office with me? I was like, yeah, sure. And he goes, so I feel like about midway through the class,

I'm losing them. Yeah. How do you think I could kind of engage them and get them back on track? He's asking me like performance questions. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, let's get into it. And I was like, this is what I can do.

This I can give you. Like the rest of it, I'm a mess. Yeah. But like on an actual intellectual level, no. But this I can definitely help. What do you do? And I was like, at a a certain point you can't just talk at us you know like at a certain point i think you've got to open it up and you have to

engage in a way that isn't do we know the material that is more just a conversational break yeah you know because we can't it's not just a matter of like let's take a break and come back yeah like you need to have us engage in the break with you like so that like the whole thing becomes broken down into something that is right. So in the middle, so in the middle, he just sat in nowhere, goes,

is there a God? What is this? God? You see people be like, what's going on? What do we do? What do we do now? They put their pencils down.

One kid wakes up. What happened? Oh, three hours. Yeah. So, all right. So that you get your religion degree and then what do you

do i get um i have a very weird uh post-college uh for i get a grant i get a i get a grant out of college and i i live abroad for two years doing a doing an ethnomusicology project how they're like how'd that come together middlebury is one of the colors like there's um it's called a it's called a watson fellowship this thing i got and it's like a non-academic fulbright but you sought it out they didn't just i did you didn't i did um so you weren't real clear on what the hell you wanted to do you know still like i was still and this was this this was the thing that attracted to me there was was like, there's a grant that's out there that our college is one of the nominating colleges for. And you have to propose an idea that you think would be cool to do that is not part of your, that you would not pursue academically otherwise.

Right. The point of it is they want to finance and fund your kind of experimental year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I did that. I pitched them a project that was, and it was typically like, I'm a terrible student, so my proposal was shitty, but I was charming in the room. Right.

And so I got it. But this is for the last two years of college or two years after? No, two years after. So you really weren't chomping at the bit to get down to New York to do long form improv? I wasn't yet because I was very curious about this. I was like, somebody will give me money to go abroad.

What was the pitch? The pitch was, it was music that was meant to induce a state of prayer, like holy prayer and union with something holy. So you're drawing on your religion degree. And my music. Right. my music interest right and it was like a lot of it was like there's a there's there's a jazz pianist named randy weston yeah uh great uh jazz pianist and he becomes obsessed with this music from morocco called ganawa music that is this like um incredibly hypnotic beautiful uh rhythmic trance-inducing music

that is meant to exorcise demons. It's very difficult to wrap your brain around. So I find this Randy Weston album in my kind of, at the radio station that you would watch. Research, yeah. And I was like, this is fucking crazy. He's amazing, but what these moroccan musicians doing is like wild yeah and so i was basically like i want to go to morocco and talk to these people

yeah and i kind of built a project around that as the centerpiece yeah and then wound up going to other places as well but it was all about like music that was supposed to kind of bring you into union with god yeah the trance whatever your god the the transcendental transcendental music yeah whirling dervishes yeah yeah all of it yeah sufi islam all of it yeah did you went to all those places yeah where'd you go um morocco egypt israel and turkey and then i traveled in like jordan and syria huh yeah that so that must have been mind-blowing it was um like beyond like it truly is like the this like it is the the I genuinely believe the only reason I do everything I do is because of those two years. Like those two years of I got on a plane.

Their whole thing is we'll give you the money. The only rule is you can't come back to the United States for at least a year. Yeah. And I landed in Morocco. And with what? the only rule is you can't come back to the united states for at least a year yeah and and i landed in morocco and with what what just like a five doors a five doors book or yeah with like a uh yes a lonely planet book and a a rough guide yeah and the and the names of the music you wanted to go find yeah so you had to go to these places and when i tell you that i'd prepared not at all yeah didn't know where i was gonna go yeah barely knew who to be even looking for didn't know even if they were there i got there and a lot of people like oh those guys are

in paris oh and i was like what the only guys who have to do it but not not the only guys but i then found other guys which was awesome yeah but i really went thinking like yeah and i bet people are gonna speak english and i got there and when i tell you i had like a straight up nervous breakdown yeah i had a nervous breakdown within the first three weeks in Morocco. I lost my mind. And what'd you do? I panicked. I was genuinely like, I don't know what to do.

I don't know who to talk. I didn't, I was spending days. It wasn't an existential nervous breakdown. No, it was like a. Where did I get myself into nervous breakdown? Correct. And I was like, and the prison of, I can't go home for a year. Yeah.

And I don't know anybody. And days were going by and I wasn't speaking to any living person. But you're eating good food, right? Terrified. No, because I'm terrified of food. Food is like, I have such a complicated relationship with food. Is there eggs in this Moroccan? Yes, of course.

It was terrifying. And so finally I meet some people and everything mellows out. And I basically learned to be like a self-sustaining adult. Yeah. You know know in those two years and that's transformative in who i am and my willingness to take chances and put myself into situations that i'm would otherwise be uh scared by or uncomfortable by yeah nothing there's nothing nothing's gonna happen on stage it's gonna match i was arrested in morocco i was put in jail

in turkey like i've been like in really sketchy. So I'm like, you want me to get up and do, like, an hour of improv and not know what's going on? Yeah, I'll fucking do that. What are you talking about? It's like the easy, people are like,

I'm so scared and not know what to say. And I'm like, that's like the easiest thing. Well, what, what'd you get arrested for in Morocco? Stupid stuff.

Stupid stuff. Like, literally, I got arrested in Morocco. It's like, it's not sexy stuff, but it's like, it was terrifying in its, what happened. Right, well, you don't know, not sexy stuff, but it's like it was terrifying in its. Because you don't know.

What happened? Right. Well, you don't know. All of a sudden, it's like you're in jail. Yes. I got arrested in Morocco for having an expired tourist visa, which they told me was fine. I called the embassy and I said, I'm going to leave the country. My thing expired.

They were like, don't worry. You're leaving the country. They're not going to care. I get to the I get to i'm in um um tangiers i go to the port i'm going to get on a boat and go to spain arrested they put me in a holding cell uh and i'm like oh okay i guess at the port and i'm gonna say i'm gonna sign something aren't you thinking like midnight express is about to happen yes when they load me in a paddy wagon with a bunch of other guys that are straight up criminals yeah i'm like oh this is not good and i am in prison for like 18 hours uh in a general holding cell yeah and i've got like two thousand dollars

worth of audio equipment on me i'm the only foreigner in there and everybody's like hey hey hey my friend hey my friend hey hey my friend and i'm just like head down like not not talking anybody and then i had to wait until they could you sure couldn't tell them why you were in there no and i had to wait until they convened like three judges to see everybody's case who was in that room yeah so it just took forever right and it was and i didn't know i kept thinking like well of course once they look at my passport and see him like i would get into i would be so cool and like i'm cool don't worry about it the minute i would get into, I would be so cool and like, I'm cool. Don't worry about it. The minute I would get into trouble, I would become like the most relentless, ugly American.

I'd be like waving my passport being like, I'm American. It was awful. Same thing in Turkey. Like I got, like we got stopped. We were trying to Turkey. That's actually where midnight express took place. A hundred percent. Yeah.

And, but we were dumb. Like I was, I was dumb and I was young. And so like we rented a car. Who's we? I was with a guy, a guy that I'd met in Marrakesh, like a, like a buddy of mine who was in the Peace Corps in Morocco when he finished Peace Corps Morocco. He went with you? He came and found me in Turkey for two weeks.

He was like, I'll just come there before I go home and we can travel around. Great. We go to Southeastern Turkey. travel around great we go to southeastern turkey we start driving straight towards uh like the pkk the the part of turkey that's in a civil war basically right and we're like we because we used to do that thing where we'd be like where's the sketchiest place in this country let's try and go there yeah like we tried to get into iran i tried to get into lebanon like closed countries they were like just cuz because we were stupid you know and you were curious i guess and you wanted to have the story of course always wanted the story yeah um but the military pulled

us out of our car and like put us in jail for a night and we were like we're americans you can't do this we were like fucking assholes yeah assholes and then there's artillery fire all night long huge cannon artillery fire and we are like horr horror terrified yeah terrified and then in the morning they come pick us up and they bring us back to our car and the and only then were we like they were protecting us right we're protecting us from driving into an active war zone at night you so they held us for the night and let us drive home right but like and we treated them like fucking assholes they're probably another one another two americans yeah here we go two more shitheads uh but yeah no we were we were stupid well what'd you learn from the music though um the music was it a lot of it was really morocco

i spent the most time in morocco seven and a half months in morocco and it was really interesting because the music was still once i kind of drilled down into and found the guys that were still doing it and earned their trust and was able to go because basically this music is played at like ceremonies that are meant to be like if somebody's sick um like whether it's like a cancer or whatever there is part of um part of what happens is they will bring in these musicians to and all the songs are associated with different colors, and all the colors are associated with different demons. And so the presumption is that this person who's sick is possessed by some sort of demon. And we're going to just play music from sundown till sunup until we figure it out.

And we're going to play and dance the demon out of them. Wow. And so that is the stuff that eventually i would go i would again very dumb and trusting they'd be like be here at like five o'clock we're gonna pick you up we're gonna drive out to a place and this you're gonna see it and i would get into a car with a bunch of random dudes drive like an hour outside marrakesh and go to someone's house and and this would happen and people would be like stabbing themselves with knives and and people would be dancing and it was like dancing in a trance, not dancing like I'm enjoying the music.

But like it was incredibly powerful to watch. It was shamanistic. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you're recording it or you're writing? I would not record those because it was not cool to record those things. But some of those musicians, I would then record just like in their house.

Yeah. Just without the... What kind of, what are they playing? What are the instruments? The instruments are just, one guy is playing what's called a gimbrie, which is like a three-stringed gut, stringed instrument.

Yeah. That, and then like metal castanets, big giant metal castanets is essentially what they are, that are providing just a driving constant rhythm that is unrelenting and exhausting. And they do it all night? All night. And did it work? You would see people like have like truly kind of what seems to me to be like out of body experiences. Because the other thing is they would be playing music for the person who is sick, but they'd be playing all these songs. what seemed to me to be like out of body experiences like you would

because the other thing is they would be playing music for the person who was sick but they'd be playing all these songs so then sometimes you'd see people who were just sitting around on the edges just like having a coffee

or a tea or something and then all of a sudden they'd be like they'd fall to the floor they would somebody would they would start playing a song and somebody would just

fall to the floor and then just start kind of having like almost a seizure almost a spasm and you thought it was genuine it seemed genuine why would why would they why why would you just fall to the ground if you're just observing there's no preacher putting on a shtick nope nobody's asking for you to do anything people would just like was this part of a religious practice it is um it is something that has uh existed to Islam in North Africa, but has been Islamized since Islam came to North Africa.

Right. So it is. Well, you musicians, they know when they need to keep a gig. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So I did that for a couple of years and then came back and moved to New York and right as UCB was starting, basically. But like all these different varieties of this spiritual music, were you on any personal spiritual quest?

I was not. But did it affect anything about your understanding of people in the world in the sense of anything that you carried with you? That's a great question it did in as much as it it bolstered and solidified my belief that everybody is searching for some union with something yeah and even though all these different people are interpreting it differently and are telling it's but it's not unlike all the religion because the religion department at middlebury was just a comparative religion department yeah we studied everything right and you just are like oh all these tenants are the same they're just you know different guys different it's just practice yeah right uh and so it was really

interesting to be like oh it's interesting to watch people process music in that same way and like oh one of the you know one of the methodologies to get to enlightenment yeah is music right you know just like there's also like zen monks whose practice is archery right you know that i'm like when i found that out i was like what do you mean archery yeah and it's like that is their meditation sure and meditation is archery and they've incorporated into the religious spiritual system and it's really interesting yeah that idea of constantly being i also lived in greek monasteries for a while and it was like that idea of constantly being in prayer yeah was always it was very

interesting to me i i'm impressed with it but it's it's you've got to the things you have to shut off yeah you know in order to live that life which is virtuous or or very specific anyway yeah but it's like it's a tall order oh very hard i don't yeah and i i don't but pieces of it very compelling no definitely but it's like the discipline of it you know better be enough to make you feel good about yourself yeah yeah or better make you not feel anything about yourself lose the ego lose that yeah and connecting you're in direct relationship with god i think so yeah but i mean like as two people who are only seeking individual glory constantly well that's an american thing in a way i you know there is something about self-centeredness and and and uh careerism sure entitlement, what about me?

You know, but I'm doing unique things. Yeah. You know, that whole thing. Why pursue the universal when I can pursue the individual? Well, that shit wears out, dude. And then all of a sudden you're like you're at the end of it or in middle age and you're like, I got no universal. Oh, yeah. So now what do I do?

Oh, yeah. How do I? Yeah, I agree. How do I not be a dick yeah how do i justify my existence as part of society as part of humanity yeah because you can fool yourself for a long time yeah like i'm contributing are you really though yeah that was funny and for how long into who yeah you know yeah exactly but it really is like you know and then there's the other point is like if you can if you can play. But then there's the other point. It's like if you can play Miles Davis for that one guy who's locked up, isn't that something? Wasn't that great?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So now when you come back to New York, that's when UCB is just starting. So it's like 94. No, it's a little later. It's 97, 98. The new UCB. Yeah.

No, it's still, they don't have a theater yet because it's still solo arts. And they get the the first one with 22nd street yeah um right as uh in like 98 basically so like within the first year i'm there right you know and it's up and running for a couple years before it's shut down so you come back you're like uh you know you're a world traveler sure you've had mystical experiences totally you've been in jail in turkey in morocco yes and you're like now you've decided you got what music and spirituality out of your system you think a little bit you got you figured it out some of it yeah and you're ready to go to the next thing yeah i really am because at this point i'm also like hmm i don't know if i'm going to be

a musician i don't know if this is if i'm if a if I can do it and I don't know but I'm super compelled by comedy You know like I'm like really and at this point I visit New York when I come back before I move I come Because my friend Rodney who I mentioned earlier is in New York and he brings me to see a UCB show at the Red Room At KGB right? Okay upstairs upstairs at yeah. Yeah yeah and i was like this yeah this is the thing well yeah because like that makes sense to me because the one thing you have to accept in terms of being a musician especially with the stuff you were interested in is like it's not for everybody no no there's something about comedy or about sketch comedy that not only with a band you have community but you you have this active creative spirit, but it's for everybody.

Yeah. Yeah. It scratched the same itch, but was social and ensemble based in a way that, because I was like, I don't think I'm going to be a standup comedian. I don't think that's for me. I don't think I would be good at it.

But improv and sketch, I think is my thing. Yeah. You know, and then I started doingcb and was immediately like all in on that like the concept of being a musician like evaporated so the original four were still around and involved oh yeah they were all my teachers yeah they were my teachers they this is when amy and ian and and matt and matt matt matt amy and ian and then armando diaz did

you know him at all no i made i'm sure i met him yeah see the thing is this weird is that like i was around then and like i just ignored the whole goddamn thing of course why we mean of course well i mean like at the time it was not a venue that would have been someplace you would go i did but i was an asshole about it i was like i'm a stand-up you know this is what we do here i know and then like new york at that time was a stand-up town yeah but then like the alt scene started to happen. Sure. And then when I was at Luna Lounge, the four started-

Rebar, right? Well, Rebar, the original one. Yeah. But that wasn't for that long before it moved to Luna Lounge. But then the four started doing their bits. Sure. And then other people, the state guys started coming around. Yep.

And then you guys were all doing this amazing stuff. And we were like, no, we're playing bars. Totally. You know? Oh, and that's the thing, though, that existed in New York. I never felt that you guys were like, those stand-ups got it going on. I don't know what the spirit of it was. I don't know how we cohabitated.

What was really interesting is that we existed, truly, I felt like, in those first years, like, unto ourselves. I was not plugged into the world at all. Even, like, the the scene the comedy see i knew obviously what the stella guys were doing or stuff like that but i otherwise i didn't go around and see other people's stuff you were all in i was just ucb it's like a cult it really was and people would call it a cult all the time they would oh yeah people would be like oh that place is a cult and and and i know what they meant cult of comedy but it there was a definite like

it was it was our place. And we were building it from the, like it was really exciting to be part of a scene from the ground up. So who was in like when you, after you learned from that generation who are my age. Yeah. What, how did, what was your crew? My crew was like the generation that I come up in is that kind of first generation that is like Paul Scheer, Rob Hubel, Owen Burke, Danielle Schneider and Donna Fineglass. Kroll? Kroll's younger than all of us.

Yeah. So Corddry Seth Morris, Brian Husky. I love Seth Morris. John Bowie. I love Seth Morris. He's so funny um and then like john daly and gelman gelman they're a little younger than us but started basically at the same time but they were like kids yeah um i'm trying like all that early you know like helms blah blah blah

and then kroll is like a little bit younger than us in age and he kind of arrives a couple years later he arrives a fully formed comedic wizard. Yeah. Well, him. And then a couple of years later, Mulaney follows him because they were both Georgetown guys together. Oh, OK. And then they hook up with Aziz for the Human Giant. Human Giant is actually many years later because Aziz is quite a bit younger.

is like for the first bunch of years is just really us doing shows for each other uh in a in an old hand job centric strip club on 22nd where the seeds used to come wondering and fleet week yeah yeah oh really they all show up oh yeah they heard about it took a couple years before people realized it wasn't there anymore and they would always be wasted and they'd be like we want to see the show and we'd be like at the front because you know like in order to take classes i would work at the the ticket booth yeah or whatever right i would intern there or whatever and they would be like we want to see the show and we'd be like this is not this is a comedy theater this is and and they would just go straight in and then come straight out and be like what the fuck's going on man same with the same with the hasidic Jews

they would all like shamefully kind of go in, and we'd be like, this is not the Harmony Theater anymore. Just so you know. But they were so uncomfortable with it, they would just kind of go in, and then sometimes watch the show, because they were now uncomfortable to leave,

and then sometimes just immediately leave. So occasionally you'd have a chassid or two? Oh, yeah. Oh, that happened for the first two or three years. Like, semi-regularly. Just because it was such a well-known, apparently, $5 handjob. $5? $5 handjobs in the bathrooms was the Harmony Theater.

I hate when Jews live up to their stereotype. Yeah. But it was a great, like, it was a very exciting time. It was also, like, nobody was very exciting time it was also like nobody was looking at us yeah nobody had agents nobody had managers nobody had deals nobody had anything it was nobody was on snl nobody had a tv show nobody had nothing we were doing bad shows for each other just getting better so you wouldn't even they weren't pulling tickets yet there's not people coming it hadn't were you there when it turned oh yeah oh yeah when people started getting

agents and when people started getting deals and when people started getting stuff it was there was a couple there was certain people who like aspen at the time was a real launching pad for people so people would get a sketch show together go to aspen and get something out you're right agents or and then eventually people started moving to la and getting work right like andy daly got mad tv yeah and donna fine glass got mad tv that was huge right because they were contemporaries it wasn't like the ucb for having a comedy central show right which was like yeah of course they're like our they're like the elders they're like the elders yeah but like when people that we came up with yeah started doing stuff it was wild and exciting

you know it was crazy yeah um and then the internet happened and then everybody every it was almost like i felt like what happened when nirvana broke and every pacific northwest band got signed right like when the internet happened and suddenly everybody could put sketches online and suddenly everybody was right yeah yeah. Everybody had deals. Everything was happening. And it was like a bright light was all of a sudden on our whole scene, which was cool. And then the LA theater opening was really,

I think, the transformative element. On Franklin. Yeah, that first theater on Franklin in 2005. That was a huge moment for the theater. Right, because I was out here in 2002. I lived around the corner from it. And yeah, that's right. It wasn't the UCB theater yet. It was just a place. It was out here in 2002. I lived around the corner from it. And yeah, that's right. It wasn't the UCB Theater yet.

It was just a place. It was the Tamron Theater. Yeah, but they did stuff, though, still. Oh, yeah. Like you could do comedy there, right? Yep, I think so. It was like a rentable space. Right.

Yeah. So when do you start getting work in the big show business? It takes a long time for me to work. But now you're like in everything. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, I'm in everything for me. That's right. You're like, there's that guy.

Hey, look at him. There's that guy. I liked him on that other thing. He was funny on this one too. He always looks the same. He's very consistent. Absolutely. I'm lucky that way, I guess.

It takes me a long, long time, mostly because I have a very funny funny i get a lot of success early on as part of like me and uh jessica st claire uh who's on a show called playing house right now and it was great she and i are like a nickels and may style comedy duo for many years and we would do a show we went to aspen got agents and managers what was it called the the duo? It was just Manzoukas and St. Clair. We didn't have a name or anything like that. So you did scripted shit? Yes, we did.

Well, that was a weird thing that really came out of that whole thing is that people learned how to direct. They learned how to write. They learned how to do sketch. Because it was a full-on community. Everybody played different roles. And you had to do it for everybody else. So I would write and do my shows,

but then I directed Seth Morris's one-man show or i like would do you know everybody would do a part in everything he's so fucking funny dude the funniest right yeah i think he's so uh unsung yeah oh somehow he has like genuinely some of my all-time favorite characters i've ever seen yeah we used to do stuff with him on the radio and then I've had him in my show two different seasons. Yeah. He's just too funny. He's the best. He's really, and he's like also like

genuinely one of the sweetest, most generous men like in the world. Yeah. You know, like it's also like as opposed to stand-ups, which has its own social kind kind of understanding like what was very nice about coming up at ucb was like it's entirely based on support right like the entire ethos of the community that is the big difference supporting each other with with stand-up we're both like

we're all like socially awkward it's pretty mercenary broken fucking gypsies and while we're full of broken people right there is definitely an element of it which is we're trying to we're helping each other yeah well you know like it's very support based um and there must be somewhat competitive of course yeah of course but still anytime competition was introduced some uh a guy came from chicago and started teaching at ucb kevin uh millennia was his name and he started a show called cage match which still exists where different house teams would go head to head yeah the audience would vote on the winner right seems easy enough i hate that shit it fostered such aggressive competition yeah amongst the like the improv nerds right that it like almost like caused

schisms between really almost crumbled the whole thing. It introduced such chaos and such vendettas. People are still now participating in grudges that exist simply because of one cage match where they felt gypped. Oh, boy. It's really great. Really funny.

So it takes you out. So you go to Aspen with St. Clair. Yeah, go to Aspen. We get a deal at Comedy Central. Did you model it after Nichols and May? Yes. You did. Very much so.

You listened to that stuff. Very much so. I was very into that stuff. Those records I love. Compass Players. Yep. Yeah. Really great.

And that was very, because they functioned much the same way we did, which was they generated their written material out of improv. Right. And so that's what St. Clair and I would do. We would have a regular improv show at the theater, just the two of us, to just improvise. Yeah. And so that's what St. Clair and I would do. We would have a regular, like an improv show at the theater, just the two of us, to just improvise.

Yeah. And then we would record it, or we would improvise just in a room, like in a rehearsal space, record it, and out of that pull stuff that we liked and then use that as the raw material to write sketches out of. Uh-huh. And so that's kind of how we worked, and that's similar to Nichols and May, how they worked.

And you never took any acting lessons? I did. I did take classes at a certain point. I took classes at the Atlantic Theater Company in New York. Yeah. That's so like extension class. It's like antithetical to improv, the Atlantic Theater in a way. No, it isn't. It isn't what I liked.

The reason I did it there is because it worked with the improv in as much as they weren't focused on any kind of uh sense memory or any it's in the script it really is these are the words say them yeah it is just present tense living presently yeah which is improv yeah you know it's just improv with scripted words yeah live presently present tense presently but make it up listen yeah yeah which was which is the central like ethos of improv which is listen yeah and that's something that is very hard to do when you are panicking because you don't know what you're gonna say yeah but like listening was such a is such a paramount thing like when you're like uh like you watch did you ever watch wolf hall the mark rylance show on pbs anyway

you this show it's a fine show but but Mark Rylance is maybe the best actor working currently, just like Stone Cold Genius. And in the show, he doesn't say a lot, but he's listening constantly. And watching him listen is one of the most compelling performances I've ever seen. Really? So listening was so paramount. And we'd been taught to listen for so long that that was very easy to get into at Atlantic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was helpful. Because at a certain point, I was like, ooh, I'm big. like taught to listen for so long that that was very easy to get into at Atlantic you know yeah yeah um and it was helpful like uh you know because at a certain point I was like oh I'm big

I'm too big like when I go on auditions when I get little jobs here and there I'm just enormous yeah because I'm used to like sketch and improv broad characters yeah I need to temper this with reality well you did that like yeah I thought that your role in enlightened that was a little yeah like you know i love that role yeah yeah i like that show love yeah love that show yeah really amazing but you were like a guy like a real guy you were a regular foreign guy yeah right right yeah so you had to learn that you had to learn how to bring it down very much and not be um always injecting bits or lightness or you know like really just sitting in things

sitting with the feelings yeah really just existing in moments yeah no matter what they are right now and not worrying about filling silences or spaces or stuff like that was very kind of important for me to learn because I was otherwise predisposed to just fill all the space with clever dialogue it seems that the one thing that happens with the improv community is that you

all do each other's stuff so you've been on a million things correct for a second or two yeah and then and then you did um but i know that enlightened was a regular role right the league was a regular role you did a lot and you were able to write on that yep yeah and those were that was a good group of guys great group um completely improvised show so it was like could not be a better show for me and my group of like like my peer group who were all on it because it was just our skill set on tv yeah so it was i'm so fun right that job was beyond fun and did what they gave you you got a writing credit just because you were improvising did everyone get a writing credit no no i got writing credit only on a couple of episodes that i actually wrote the outline for right so there were so i play a side character on that show

and then in success i introduced we introduced my friend played by seth rogan who's an even more side character yeah and then eventually i was like we would like to do episodes that are just about us. And so every season they would give us a one-off for the adventures of these two monsters. Right. So those shows would be full of like drugs and murder on a show that is ostensibly about fantasy football. So it was chaos.

And Rogen and I would write those outlines. Because that's how the show is structured as like a seven page script outline and you met him out here i met him out here yeah through like writers round tables and stuff like that with mckay and those guys uh more with judd and those guys oh yeah yeah so you kind of got integrated into this whole world of comedy out here yeah pretty quickly though yeah i got i stayed stayed in New York much later than a lot of my peer group. They all moved out here. So when I came out here, they were already kind of set up. They were already kind of in the world. And so it wasn't, it didn't, it was very easy,

not very easy for me, but I was very lucky in the sense that people were like, oh, they're doing a round table or joke punch up thing. You should come to it, you know, because they knew about it. I got, I would get invited and then I would get on that list. And so the next time one would come around, I would get invited, you know? And so, and you're a good guy and I'm a good guy. I'm good at those. You're excited. Like, I don't know you, but like, you know, you're all filled up.

Anytime we run into each other, it's a delightful conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm always like, oh, there you are. What are we going to talk? Still doing it. But no, it's a delightful conversation. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm always like, oh, there you are. Yeah. When are we going to talk?

Still doing it. But no, but I think some people are difficult, but I think like you not only have talent, but you probably, you know, in a room, you're a fun guy. Very fun. Yeah. Yes. Very fun. And, but also like, I'll pitch jokes and I'll also, I'm not afraid to be like, this doesn't work.

Right. Like, I'm not afraid to be like in those rooms, like, this is a problem you gotta we gotta fix this but do you find that you know even you know outside of the comedy nerd world that you're still like that there's that guy oh yeah yeah because I get a lot of I'm I hang around a lot with uh with Kroll and we will get a lot of this which I enjoy because I like where i am at yeah which is people will be like oh shit nick kroll yeah and rafi from the league yeah and i'm like great don't know my name it's better better way better yeah way better i can have a life the the thing for me though is i am unquestionably me yeah nobody looks at me on the street and is like is that who i think it is

right like you're the guy you're the guy but i also think you're that to give or take you know on screen as well it seems yeah uh you know what i mean like nick will do some pretty over the top shit sure but you know you stay within your wheelhouse i do for the most part you know there are a couple of things here and there that are that i'm diverging from but yeah more often than not i'm playing some version of a maniac scumbag drug dealing sociopath monster like some sort of charming monster is what i'm doing almost all the time well do you want to do something other than that i do and i have you know just not to the same degree of success you know like the things that i've done that are more normal parts yeah haven't been in as big of things you know like the things that i've done that are more normal parts yeah haven't been in as big of things you know like what um like i'm in a movie called sleeping with

other people that i think is terrific um and i'm it's like a romantic comedy it's like the the pitch for it was it's when harry met sally for assholes yeah um and i play sudeikis i play like the bruno kirby part right i'm like Sudeikis' married friend. Right. And I've got a wife who's Andrea Savage. But we are super funny, bickering, but clearly in love. Right. And we're parents and we're normal people. I'm not a crazy person. I'm like-

Is that rewarding? It's great. Yeah. Really fun. Now, is this one, the house, the one that I watched most of- Nice. Yes, this morning. Terrific.

I did. Yeah, great. It is in the world of those most of this morning. Terrific. I did. Yeah, great. It is in the world of those kind of comedies. But it feels like the biggest part you've had in a movie. Oh, by far. By far. It's like most of the movie. Yeah.

No, the movie really is, will Amy and I start a casino in my house? Yeah. And that's the movie. Yeah. It really is like, it's casino. It's Joe Pesci, De Niro, and Sharon Stone. No, eventually. That's what it becomes. The last third's the movie yeah you know yeah it really is like it's casino it's joe pesci de niro and sharon stone eventually you know it becomes that's what it becomes the last third of

the exactly that when it gets violent it gets pretty crazy yeah but like it does yeah like i don't you know it's a weird thing it seems to be happening recently that the over-the-top violence and out of nowhere yeah it gets very normal people juxtaposed with hyper violence right yeah absolutely it's just it's recent though right i think so i think it's like it's it's trying to find it's trying to insert extreme circumstances into what would otherwise be ordinary comedy scenarios and violence is it's one of the jarring you can go well yeah and i think that people have done it before. Like, you know, Monty Python has done it before.

It's been around before. Yep. But there's something about, you know, a big screen movie. Yeah. Where just out of nowhere, you know, that. There's also a thing, though, which is. Like Sasha's last movie. Yeah.

About the soccer guy. Sure, sure. What was that called? Brothers Grimsby. Were you in that? No. I was in The Dictator. I was in the one prior to it. That was like your big break in a way.

It very much was, yeah. But the Grimsby movie, which I saw at a screening at some small facility, I was like, whoa, this is over the top. Like some of the violence and some of the sexuality stuff. What used to be a very well balanced, like within the first seven minutes of Beverly Hills Cop. Yeah. There is an there's a brutal murder.

Yeah. Yeah. No, there's a crazy murder. Cop movies that used to happen in those kind of action comedies of the 80s. Violence and comedy are like interchangeable. Like both are being pursued all the time. Yeah. To to to to kind of both help the procedural element of the thing and then also the time. Yeah. To kind of both help the procedural element

of the thing and then also the comedy. But in the 70s and into the 80s a bit, you know, even things that were comedies, you know, people would die.

Right. Yeah. And now, I think the reason that violence feels so crazy or... It was gone for a while. Because it's gone for a while

and also because it's not being um it's a true juxtaposition the the ratio is so off now when the movies now are 90 just comedic yeah and then every once in a while they'll sprinkle in 10 of hyper violence just to be like isn't this crazy well there's other genres like slasher movies and the horror movies that are just like gratuitous violence that that often elevate to comedy. And I think a lot of people, maybe not great people, think they're hilarious. Yeah.

Heads coming off and whatnot. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's not my cup of tea. But I watched Analyze This for the 10th time on the plane the other day. And that's a gangster comedy. No one goes down. No. There's no blood.

No one dies. Everybody's fine. And it's an intentional thing. There's gunplay, but no one gets hurt. And that's a decision. No. There's no blood. No one dies. Everybody's fine. And it's an intentional thing. There's gunplay, but no one gets hurt. And that's a decision. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So now that decision is different.

Oh, totally. But the weird thing is that I still, maybe it's because I'm old or something, there's some part of me that after everything goes down, goes down, that I'm like, well, these people are morally flawed and they're going to pay for it. Sure. But that doesn't happen. No, no, well, these people are morally flawed, and they're going to pay for it. Sure. But that doesn't happen in this movie. No, no, no, it doesn't. Were you expecting an unhappy 70s ending?

I don't know. This is not a Hal Ashby movie. There's a point where it's not quite enough that you're running a casino in a suburban neighborhood. I've suspended my disbelief to allow the premise to occur. We're basically opening a casino to take all of our friends and neighbors money and make it ours. I'm going to let that happen. But once real people get hurt and I'm like, well, this guy's not a good guy.

Oh, yeah. Oh, no. If you look too close at it, you're like, wait a minute. It's the same thing I remember with the dictator talking about it and like doing press for it and stuff and having to be like oh well keep in mind we're playing terrorists yeah like we're playing like we're funny and all this stuff but like we're playing people that are like bad guys yeah you're rooting for bad guys right yeah but you know you all in this movie y'all have these sort of problems yeah you know yours is a gambling addiction and a divorce,

and theirs is they got to put their kid through college. But yeah, I mean, it's not meant to be an exploration of the human spirit. No, it is not. No, it is not. And that's the thing. If you get on board for that, if you buy into like, great, they're going to start a casino and they're going to be like kind of morons and violent people. Great.

If you are into it, it's fun. Well, the other question I had for you was the what you wrote, co-wrote Ride Along. I did. Well, let me. I rewrote Ride Along. Oh, so you're brought in. I was brought in. Ride Along was written as a like PG family movie.

Who wrote it? Greg Coolidge wrote it first it first right and then um somebody else wrote a draft of it right and then i wrote a draft of it and then it died okay and then years later when after i think that what happened was ice cube was funny in 21 jump street yeah and people were like hey he could do a comedy and they were like we already have it it's this yeah and so they took my script uh my they when i wrote it they asked it that it be for uh it was him and they wanted andy sandberg to be the the guy right the the kevin hart part yeah uh and so i wrote it for them for those two and then when it came back to life, I had nothing to do with it, but they used my draft and just rewrote all the stuff for Kevin. Right.

Noob guys rewrote it. Yeah. But because it was my draft that it was based off of, I got credit. Well, that must have been good. It was great. It was great.

And a lot of my stuff was structurally the movie, and a lot of the jokes are my stuff, but those guys did a great, Manfredi and hay did an amazing job you know rewriting it for for cube and and kevin yeah it was great well why why is that the only thing you've written i've written other stuff i'm like i'm one of those people that for many years like had a would would sell a show would write a pilot pilot would get made not picked up right

there's a lot of those right my the last 12 years of my life are riddled with those what about movies movies i'm writing a movie right now for paramount um i've written a bunch of other movies similarly some of which have just sat and not been made nothing else has been made yeah um sat and not been made are still in process yeah like i've got a movie that i wrote for imagine that i'm supposed to direct and blah blah blah but it's again it's like getting comedy features made is very weird right now yeah unless it's like and you don't mind the limbo or doing the work and having it sit there or it is i used to mind it a lot more earlier when i had nothing else going on. Right. And now I don't, and it's not that I don't mind it,

but now I recognize that there is a constant state of flux in everything. Yeah. And so I now am like, I have my eggs in many baskets. Sure. So if it takes two years for this movie to get made, if at all,

at the very least, I'll have done these three things in that two years. Well, yeah. And you're working all the time. Do you still actually improv i don't no i don't anymore i haven't for since i moved here not even a special seminar here and there no i have that'd be fun though do you do it i do yeah every week i do a show every week at ucb here on franklin someone told me they saw you do the best improv they ever saw in their life really yeah it was apparently it was entirely silent oh i know that show yeah that you did a 45 minute completely silent improv

alone alone yeah yeah um i was i was supposed to do a show with three other people yeah all three of them didn't show up right and i was like well what am i gonna do i kind of was like i don't know this you know i've done it in the i've do i kind of was like i don't know this you know i've done it in the i've done shows in the past where i've just pulled random people out of the audience and got a show with them yeah uh and this show in particular the idea of it is there's no edits right so it's just one long scene usually it just happens to be with more people right so i was like you know what it would be cool i'll do it alone you know why not i've never done that you know and it cause at this point,

improvising, like that's arguably the place I feel most comfortable in life is on stage, not knowing what's going to happen. It's the only time I'm not crippled with anxiety about the future or riddled with regrets about the past. Like you have that. I'm just like present tense. But do you really live in that zone off the stage? Off stage?

I am. I live in a less regrets about the past although they're they're like hyper anxious uh future catastrophic future thinker yeah like i am dread dread yeah i have fear and dread about all things like coming over here no not coming over here no more of the world more like more like i'm very susceptible to like health concerns i'm very obsessed with i'm like a hypochondriacal you are in many ways oh yeah totally um like when you went to the bathroom yeah i secretly took uh clorox wipes out of my uh bag and washed my hands oh yeah like just cuz yeah it'd been a while my bathroom is a little dirty

no just cuz just cuz i'm like yeah really like i'm just like constantly cycling my mind is constantly cycling yeah but what do you do to stop it improvise improvise yeah but i mean i try i've been trying to meditate i've been trying to do all of those kind of mindfulness exercises to kind of working it in fits and starts honestly because i have that too i have i have the paralyzing anxiety and dread yeah and uh catastrophic thinking yeah but do you are you but you seem capable of experiencing happiness yeah to some degree or another yeah i'm good at representing that I'm capable of experiencing happiness. For me. You're a professional.

For me, like, like even here as we talk. Yeah. I am still performing a persona that seems vulnerable. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, and I'm aware of that. And I'm aware of like, you know, like i was having a conversation with with my therapist recently and was like because she was like i was trying to explain the idea of a comedic persona and a comedic persona that looks a lot like i look yeah and i was like oh and she was like i guess i

don't know what you mean i was like oh i'm gonna have to send you something because i have like the most naked conversational relationship with her yeah i was like i'm gonna have to send you something that is representative of who i otherwise am yeah because you don't actually know that that version of me that i'm that i would otherwise talk about wait so when you're with her you're like wringing your hands i'm much more like um i'm much more forthcoming i'm much more just i'm much more vulnerable i'm much more laid bare yeah like there is no i have no i have no walls you know with her i'm because to me i'm like vigilantly pursuing like growth and and understanding with her in my mind i'm like the faster you and i

connect on this the better the quicker i'm going to get out of my head but it doesn't work that way necessarily only in that i'm not finding it and only in that moment yeah and then you walk out feeling like oh we really did it yeah and then i open my phone and i'm like fuck fuck fuck fuck so you're that guy you're the guy that uh you know there's probably a couple women who are like oh yeah yeah i you know they're they're out there i i love them but i had to get out yeah oh yeah yeah no it's no good it's no good you know women who are like i'm rooting for you but like you gotta figure it out bro i'm exhausted truly exhausted is what they would all say right yeah it's exhausting yeah it's exhausting to fight with you so you just spin around yeah

you know like in variations of uh of dread uh uh anger and sadness fear sad melancholy i'm prone to fits of melancholy oh yeah yeah well it seems like all that stuff so you're sort of like i mean i can relate to that in the sense that you just keep throwing yourself into shit oh yeah to uh to you know to challenge it well you had to challenge it and to defy it yeah you know uh and like that's the thing about dread but even as you said earlier that you you know that you did all these things you took all these chances and you know certain things aren't frightening but but there's still this core thing what the fuck is that so like if you say to me like why i was put in prison and i did this thing i mean obviously it was limited to what it

was but yeah but so a lot of things you know post that post the experience of having a meltdown which now that you tell me what you really like in an hour and a half in that in in morocco that must have been like i really was like i gotta figure out how to be truthful and honest without just being like totally- Right. But so you must have really been freaking out in Morocco. Truly. And I was like weeping on the street, like catastrophic mess.

All alone out there. Alone. All alone. So you got through that, but in the same way with me is like okay so you know you catalog that experience and it should represent something that will uh you know propel you to be less fearless in life but the fear is not about getting up on stage or or or doing the things that is so frightening to other people it's just this the quiet of being alone with your own brain i being alone period you know like i feel like like the thing that is like the my nightmares like the the nightmares that i wake up like that i can't

shake yeah are nightmares of loneliness yeah are truly just i am alone i am alone in a place that i don't know i'm alone in the world i'm like i've been i've been i'm a pariah i'm like those are the things inescapable or invisible yeah that's what i get oh is this is sort of like if i'm alone too long it's sort of like like i regress to this point where i'm just sort of like no no do i exist yeah not quite like that but just sort of like you know you start to forget that you you you experience yourself in relation to right other people yeah an audience or whatever well it's a it's a very narcissistic thing of like for me i'll be like if i don't hear from a friend yeah for a little while i'll text them

and be like are you mad at me oh yeah and i just don't know it oh yeah well that's better i go right to fuck you sometimes you know it's been a week you go fuck yourself yeah but then you then you've constructed an entire thing that doesn't exist at all they're like i'm sorry my dog was sick exactly okay or i'm going through some stuff you could like just reach out and ask me how i'm doing right it is a selfish thing yeah i don't because i'm filtering it through yeah i'm filtering it through me so oh i haven't heard from my friend in a while i must have done something. It must be me rather than like maybe they've got something going on. And then you reach out and immediately make it about you. Yeah.

I don't know what I did, but I hope we're okay. Hey, I hope we're cool. I don't know. Maybe last time did I say something? And they're always like, no. My dad is sick. I'm going through something. And I'm like, oh, fuck.

I'm the asshole. I'm an idiot. It's like, oh, right. You're supposed to talk to me more right right yeah yeah how are we gonna get better yeah we're doing it right we're just middle-aged men figuring it out i guess like having uh do you have a wife or children i do not i have neither yeah so i don't either so are we figuring it out you have a you know sounds like just as a fan of the show it sounds like a very successful relationship right yeah yeah we're doing good great but like i don't think i'm gonna have kids yep i think that's done and

you know i have you think that's done because what do you decided you don't want kids like you certainly could still have kids see martin had a kid when he was like 72 years old who did steve martin yeah i mean a million people had kids when they were i'm not i don't know what do i want to be that guy i mean it's like i'm gonna be old i'm almost tired already well not really she doesn't you know but uh but like you know i i don't i don't have the answers to those things that you know sustain relationships in a healthy way that you know that where the compromises are okay and that like you know because i i get to that anxiety place or i get to that it's not even like it could be better or it could be worse it's just sort of like

is this it yeah is this it yeah or is this it or i get am i doing it right yeah yeah am i doing well i know i'm doing it wrong yeah and then that that knowledge is like insidious when you start understanding that you're doing it wrong and that the system you've created is itself flawed in a way that can only destroy the thing that you are trying to make. And then when you have this conversation with them. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And then they're like, why are you so intellectual about it?

Yeah. And I'm like, well, I'm trying to figure this out like it's a problem that we're gonna figure out yeah rather than just being with you and finding a way to do it together can't improvise in life huh truly i mean i talk about this constantly is oh really i am the best at a thing performatively yeah that i am incapable of living in my life i am an amazing improviser yeah i i mean i'm that's a very arrogant thing to say but i am a very good improviser doing it long enough to say that i've been doing it very long i'm very good at it right and it is living in the listening living in the moment and accepting only the enough

responsibility for that which you can provide in that scene on stage or whatever right which is by the way a great model for living your life i'm only responsible for that which I can provide to this person or this event or this in my life. Incapable of doing that. In life, I'm like, I must be responsible for you and your happiness. I'm in my mind during this being like, is this a good episode? I don't know. Is Mark going to be happy about this?

What's the intro going to be like? Is he going to be like, I sat with Jason Manzik. It's a good guy. Good guy. You know, good guy good guy you know good guy but you know what we didn't really get into it at the very end tricky he's a tricky guy didn't get interesting till the end we talked about music we talked about this then i don't know i don't know he's okay no you that's what i would say to my producer right after the show yeah i wouldn't i

wouldn't intro you like that yeah but no but no, I have the same issue. Like, you know, having these conversations in here, I don't have a fucking social life. Yeah. I mean, my chick, you know, she's painting over there. We go out to eat and it's okay. Well, I never see you around except at music shows, which I like.

Well, yeah, I go to some music shows when I get tickets or I'm invited, but I don't make way to do it. But, like, you know, like, I get to the point where people don't ask me to go to some music shows when I get tickets or I'm invited but I don't make way to do it but like you know like I get to the point where people don't ask me to go to things really and I guess there are premieres and things

I should go to but I don't I don't know but I used to go out more to the clubs and stuff and then like lately I've just been like I think I'm through the woods

with that shit. None of it's I mean you should go to what you want to go to. I just don't always know what that is and the dread the dread will paralyze me because like for me i'm like if i want to see a movie early yeah i'll go to the premiere if i can yeah you know just to be like because i want to see that movie well i just saw yours on the screener yeah great by the way great yeah by the thank you for watching it you know in and of itself yeah you know a feat uh to

get people to watch stuff but uh there's also just too much there's too much but also like that's the big problem like don't you ever ask and la is a home-based life no i know i know that yeah i was just in new york and i but i get exhausted there too and i'm i did i travel around the same four blocks in the same restaurants all in restaurant and i and i'm beating myself up now because now you go up when you're out there i do sometimes but i didn't this last time because i've been on the road for months and i just shot a special and there's some part of me that i want to try to feel like i don't have to do it sure and i don't know like i don't know it can be all of it like you don't have to

participate in all of it right you know in terms of what you're saying about going to premieres or going to the parties i don't go blah no one asked me to go no one invites me to fucking dinner nobody has anybody to go everybody's just like i gotta go to things i want to go to there i always feel like there's a list oh my god this is so funny i love it that we are still what not believing that people want us around you're just you're doing exactly what I just said, which is like, are you mad at me? What you do it? Yeah. I do it too.

I'm like, should I feel insulted that I wasn't invited to X, Y, or Z? Yeah. And then you don't want to go to begin with. Yeah. I don't.

And then, cause I will say that sometimes to like my manager, who's a good friend of mine or something. I'll be like, is it weird that I wasn't invited to this, that, or the other. Yeah.

And she'll be like, do you want to go to it? I'm sure we can call. And I'll be like, no, I don't want to go to it. I just feel like, should I have been invited or not? But then you start to realize to it i'm sure we can call and i'll be like that's the thing no i don't want to go to it i just feel like oh then you should i've been invited or not but then you start to realize like all those people are just sort of like i need to go to that we're middle

aged men like we should not care about that like we're not very close to not caring also not only we middle-aged men and we shouldn't care like we're doing plenty yeah yeah plenty busy we're plenty we're doing plenty i'm on the precipice of not giving a fuck great you great no yeah yeah plenty busy we're plenty we're doing plenty i'm on the precipice of not giving a fuck great you great no yeah yeah it's certainly about the like um social kind of uh nonsense like that do you know what you like to do like outside of work yeah i'm like a real creature of habit in that sense like i really i want to do but it's very like if especially if it's like i'm going to new york i want to go to the record stores that i want to go to like i have like errands i do that too i do that too um and i just want to walk around yeah i do that yeah i've got all those things stores that i want to buy

but it's comforting right but super it's like it's all um soothing right but then out of the box i'm sort of like i want to go lincoln center i did one one experience there years ago where i just stepped in and just saw symphony i didn't know nothing about it same happened to me with and you had her on your show i heard something about annie baker's play the flick right and so i happen to be in new york and was like i'm gonna go see that like we got and so i went and like my mind was blown i became obsessed with her right that's the thing we got to keep doing is blowing our minds i I guess. Well, that's, and that is what's hard about, I think, about Los Angeles versus New York

is New York makes it very easy for you to like, just do a thing. Right. Like truly like improvise your day and night. Like, that's why I love New York because it's. Right. You don't go to like three or four places and then you get there and you're like, why is that person still hanging around? Is it?

So when I tell that person to go home. Get that guy out of here. Really? Okay. Is this what we're doing? That doesn't happen in New York. No. No, but in LA, you really are limited.

In a night or a weekend, you're maybe doing two things how's the meditation working it's okay yeah it's okay i got it's on me it's on me to do it more when was the last time you went to the doctor oh recently yeah i was just uh i go i go to the doctor constantly oftentimes so that he can be like you're fine it's nothing isn't that weird now like i know where that comes from with me like i like i't. Did your parents not make you feel better? Here's what it is for me. And I think this is what in this respect, this is what it is for me is. And forgive me for talking about this food allergy again, but I think because I was raised so acutely aware of my own mortality. Yeah.

Because it was so present. I never felt invincible. I never was a child. Like if you ate an egg, you'd die? If I ate anything that has egg in it, if I eat pasta, if I eat bread, if I eat anything for breakfast, if I eat anything that has egg as an ingredient, I'll die. I have the same allergy to eggs that people have to like- Almonds? Beastings or nuts or whatever.

Really? Like your throat or nuts or whatever. Really? Like your throat will close? Yeah. Like EpiPen in my bag, like anaphylaxis, the whole thing. And as a result, like very, like parents, very afraid of, for me and very afraid to like let go of me. Made me very not trusting of people, not like very like fear based kind of like, if you leave this house,

don't eat anything anybody gives you. Don't believe anybody that tells you it doesn't have any, like very like rigid. My pediatrician, the pediatrician was like, it was all fear based. Yeah. You will die.

I remember him very vividly being like, I had a boy who had your same allergy and he wanted to have a piece of pizza and he ate it and he died. And I remember so vividly being the piece of pizza because i was like i like pizza yeah i want to eat pizza how do you know you liked it um because there was a place in my town that didn't have egg in the pizza anyway um but i think for me like that idea of the incredible how vulnerable i was made me feel like doctors know all the answers and i'm i'm i'm just fundamentally weak and fragile right and as a result if this is possible maybe everything's possible right so i will like read an article or hear an npr story about like a meningitis outbreak

yeah and i'll text my doctor and be like do i need to be worried about this do you manifest symptoms constantly yeah oh yeah and I'll tie things together. Once I notice one thing, I'll systematically go like top to bottom and be like, what else is up? What else is up? It's all connected. And then you can go connect the dots on the Google.

Yep. Or the biggest mistake was, biggest mistake was my doctor let me have his cell phone number so I could text him. My doctor who, upon first meeting him where as i was going through all the medical issues that i've had through my life looked up in the middle of it and goes wow you really got a bum unit he goes and then he was the same doctor as

a friend of mine who was like and my friend at one point goes i don't think he should have said this to me but i was like hey you're, you're also seeing Jason Manzoukas. And the doctor goes, oh, yeah, that guy's got so many problems. He should be dead by now. I'm shocked he's still alive. And Rob was like, I don't think he should be saying that to other people. But it's mental issues, right? No, physical, like real physical stuff.

You do? Yeah. I mean, like various, but like, you know, just stuff. Yeah. All right. Well, that's so you're in a constant state of panic yeah yeah i'm on the verge of a constant state of panic yeah you know i'm in like a medium state of panic it's always right there it's like a full glass and like everything is just hovering to like pour more into it but all it takes is uh you know is a pimple or something on your skin oh my

god the frequency of ringing in the ear frequency with which- A ringing in the ear. The frequency with which I go to my dermatologist to be like, what is this? Yeah. What is this? Is this skin cancer? What's going on? Yeah.

And she's like, it's a pimple or it's a hair follicle. Right. Well, I don't know. I was able to sort of get that shit in check somehow because the core of it for me was not the same as yours. I don't know. How do you think you get that in check? Don't know. No. you think you get that in check? Don't know.

No. Improvise. Yeah. And that, and truly like, that's like trying to be more, allow for more of a present improv improvised narrative in how I live. My life is what I'm trying to do.

Yeah. But it's, it, it goes against everything that I've built. Yeah. Because it's really long form. Yeah. It's like the show's hopefully not going to end for a long time exactly and the connections are going to be amazing yeah yeah you just don't know where they're going to come from who the players are well it was great talking this was a delight thanks man thanks for having me

so that was lovely. I really like that guy. I don't feel like playing guitar today because I'm hot, I'm sweaty. I've done two interviews and I've done this today. I'm a little shattered. All right. Boomer lives! We'll be right back. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

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