WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 827 - Glow Writers & Creators

Episode Date: July 9, 2017

Give a listen to how the sausage of television gets made as Marc talks with the creative team behind the show GLOW. First, hear about the process of scripting a season of television as a group from the show's writers, Rachel Shukert, Nick Jones and Sascha Rothschild. Then Marc speaks with the creators and showrunners Carly Mensch and Liz Flahive who had to bring all the parts together and still maintain their long-standing friendship. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckocrats what the fuck publicans the fusea and of course you what the fuck nicks welcome this is my show this is mark maron talking in your head as you drive or exercise or run or bake or whatever the hell you paint it's hot here man it's over 100 and i got to turn the air conditioner off in here in order to record to have this wonderfully professional sounding product. Today on the show, this is the last of a series of shows that we've been doing revolving around the Netflix show Glow, the gorgeous ladies of wrestling, which I am part of, it was a great opportunity really for this show anyways, to sort of like track the creation of the show in a lot of ways, or at least understand it and be part, I'm part of a production that isn't my show.

And I'm working with a producer that's a genius. And today on the show, we've got the showrunners, the creators of the show, Carly Mensch and Liz Flahive. And we've also got the writing team, Rachel Shukert, Nick Jones, and Sasha Rothschild. I actually put this in the can when they were still on the set of GLOW, the writers anyways. Liz and Carly came over here. The showrunners did. But this is sort of the ground level of the creation and the way that the showrunners or the creators of the show created the show. So we can talk to them about that.

And the writers, it was interesting to talk to them about how they were able to generate these characters. There's so many characters. And also that it was nice that they were writing while we were shooting so that they could voice my character a little bit more like me when they knew what it was that i could do so this is the last of the batch of the glow episodes and this is a good one it's good you know especially if you're a i don't want to use the word creator it's too vague but if you're a, I don't want to use the word creator. It's too vague.

But if you're a writer who wants to get into TV writing, this should have some valuable information. And these are good people. Decent people. The lot of them. Man, the show, people are loving the show. I couldn't be more excited about that. Speaking about shows, I would like to bring your attention. A friend of mine, he's been on the show before.

He's a very funny dude. I love watching him do comedy. His name's Brian Scolero. You might remember him. Got a great voice. Scolero's got a great voice. He's got a new comedy album out. It's called Stupid Time, a sketch album.

You can get it on iTunes or allthingsrecords.com. Check out Brian's record. He's a funny guy. So I will tell you what I've been up to the last couple of days. Over the weekend, Senator Al Franken asked me to moderate a conversation with him

over in Beverly Hills at the Wallace Theater, the Wallace Center for the Performing Arts. He asked me a couple of weeks ago. I said, of course, we did that at BookCon. We got a good thing going. I had him on of course, we did that at BookCon. We got a good thing going. I had him on the podcast.

I interviewed him at BookCon live. We had some good shit going. He's in top form, both as a senator and a guy that cares with a big heart, but also as a funny man. Al is a fucking hilarious comedic performer and writer on top of being an amazingly big uh uh big-hearted progressive senator and i i love working with him but it was it was sort of amazing that it did become sort of a team shtick like because you know i knew which stories like landed great and he all his stories some of them are really because he's a great comedy writer, structured beautifully, almost like jokes you would read, long stories. And so by the third time I worked with him live,

we really had kind of a team dynamic going. And I didn't say this to him, but if he ever retires from the Senate, I wouldn't mind maybe hitting the road for some gigs. He used to be in a team. He knows how to do it. I know how to do it. I'm a pretty good the road for some gigs. He used to be in a team. He knows how to do it. I know how to do it. I'm a pretty good straight man for the senator.

What was funny is that, and I believe he's a great senator, and he's doing great work. He's got balls. He's got courage, and he's righteous in a real way, and he's done some great things lately in terms of calling certain people out. Yeah, it's just a line of questioning on a committee and yielding some pretty amazing viral videos at the very least, but also some monumental shifts in the process of government at this moment in time but what surprised me was uh we were talking the other day and we did this didn't happen the first time we did it and i and i'm i'm really doing this as a build-up to tell a dirty joke so if you're thinking about fast forwarding there's a pretty good dirty joke coming so al we're talking i'm talking. So Al, we're talking. I'm talking to Al. And we're talking about his dad. And, you know, if he grew up with comedy in the house.

And Al tells me that his dad was a great Buddy Hackett fan. And who wasn't? Buddy Hackett was really the funniest guy I knew of when I was a little kid. My grandmother loved Buddy Hackett. She used to go, you know, Grandma Goldie used to say, say, very funny, we see him in Vegas, but he's filthy. The word filthy needs more play. But Al's telling me that his father loved Buddy Hackett and always did. And years after his father passed away, he ran into Buddy Hackett on an airplane and said mr hackett my father was a great fan of yours and he made him very happy he was favorite comic to something i'm paraphrasing and buddy hackett

turned to al and went into this joke which i will tell and to see but i want you to picture al franken telling this senator al franken it's beautiful it was beautiful i wish we had it on tape guy goes into the doctor he's got a dot on his head and he says doc what is this the doc says yeah i i've not seen that before guy says well what is it the doctor says well what what's happening is you're gonna have a where that dot is a penis is gonna grow out of of your forehead. In about six months, you'll have a full-grown penis growing out of your forehead. So the guy says, well, can you cut it off? And the doctor says, no, because it's connected directly to your brain. And then the guy says, well, you mean in six months time, I'm going to wake up in the morning,

I'm going to look in the mirror and I'm going to see a penis hanging off of my forehead, just sticking out there. And the doctor goes, no, you won't be able to see it because the balls will be hanging in your eyes. The balls will be hanging in your eyes. That's a hell of a turn. That's a buddy Hackett joke conveyed to me by Senator Al Franken in the context of a tribute to his father who loved Buddy Hackett. And it gave me the opportunity to tell you that dirty joke. Classic dirty joke with a beautiful twist at the end.

What more can you ask for on a Monday morning? Am I right? You won't be able to see it because the balls will be hanging in your eyes. Get it? Got it? Let's get into this. Let's get into the writers. Racial, racial, racial?

No, no. Rachel Shukert, Nick Jones, and Sasha Rothschild were the primary writers, the writers' room of GLOW. And I spoke to them at the production facility out there at the sound stages. And we talked about being writers. If that's of interest to you, here it comes. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. If that's of interest to you, here it comes. know but chicken tenders yes because those are groceries and we deliver those too along with your favorite restaurant food alcohol and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies

by region see app for details hi it's terry o'reilly host of under the influence recently we created an episode on cannabis marketing with With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. UMS. Alright, so Rachel, Nick, Sasha, the writers for GLOW. I've said the words of all of you.

I've had problems with some of the words, Nick. There was actually no real struggles on set. I think I was, I'm going to talk about me for a while. I thought I was very, I was a real mensch. Yeah. I thought your writings were all good was a real mensch about it. Yeah. I thought your writings were all good and I didn't fight for anything.

We were worried about you. Were you going in? Yeah. We didn't know how ornery you would be. Is that true? Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. And you have a shockingly cheery disposition on set. I didn't have to worry about much. I thought like, this isn't on me. If this thing craps out, it's their thing. I just have to show up and do my job.

Yeah. I was a working man. That's how we feel. Yeah. I also made the discovery late in the shoot that the crankier you got, the funnier you got. That is true. Your crankiest day, I thought you were on fire.

Is that true? Yeah. What day was that? No, we talked about it. It was episode eight up in the office. And then I think we also did the car scene with Allie. Okay. Yeah.

Oh, right. Car scenes with Allie always made you cranky. Well, you're sitting there in the car. And my resentment is that I'm in a car on a trailer. And you guys are sitting in your little cubby up there kind of laughing and talking about other things and i'm just sitting in a fucking trailer watching you guys just have a day it's a problem welcome to being a star oh exactly okay think about how much more you get paid than we do do i probably i don't know

this is like i hope so i would think so I don't think we should go down that road. You know? You want to talk numbers? We could. You want to talk numbers? I liked when you would yell at yourself because you would never yell at others, which I thought was a mensch, very mensch-like. That's true.

You're a mensch. You're a mensch, Mark. Who knew? I'm a mensch. I didn't want to be one of those assholes. So let's go, like, how, what have you written on rachel before this i wrote on supergirl last season and i wrote on this show called red band society that ran on fox for one season and what'd you do before that oh all kinds of things i wrote books mostly and magazines and

yeah as a playwright oh really you're a playwright yeah and you wrote books i, as a playwright. Oh really, you were a playwright? Yeah. And you wrote books? Yeah. I know, like a lot of, there's a lot of playwrights because Carly and Liz are playwrights. Well that's,

we all know each other from that, from, for like 10, 10, 11 years. Yeah. And Carly and Liz

and I were all in the same writers group at Ars Nova in New York in like 2006. I knew no one. Yeah, I know, you're a Hollywood person.

Sasha's a Hollywood person. I'm so Hollywood. Yeah, you're like, you're like the outlier. Allasha's a hollywood so hollywood yeah you're like uh you're you're like uh the outlier all these people are new york intelligentsia they're very smart the high brows yeah we were before we came to la but but when you were doing plays like what like tell me about nick you know i'll get to you don't worry so i'm not worried nick so so like tell me about your first play that you put up. Well, I mean, I started doing plays in college

that I wrote and starred in and did in the multipurpose room. Yeah, like Orson Welles. Like Orson Welles, but much worse. And then I came to New York and I started doing puppet shows because I couldn't figure out how to do plays that required all the resources that I had in college. So I actually was like a puppeteer

when I met these guys. Really? Yeah. You had a trunk full of puppets? I had this group called Jolly Ship the Whizbang. He was dating a puppet. And it was like a rock band

with puppets. I did that for like 10 years. Hand puppets? Yeah, they were like rod puppets you manipulated from below. And for a while, I wanted to be a puppeteer. Really? I was like, I want to be a puppeteer musician because I figured like that's something no one else is. And the bar is very low.

Yeah. I was like, no one will know if I'm not the best in the business because I'm the only one in this business. if I'm not the best in the business because I'm the only one in this business. Well, it just sounds like there's that angle and there's also the angle that you wanted to guarantee your failure. Yeah, and I sort of was doing both. I was hedging my bets.

So you did some puppeteering, some rock puppeteering. Yeah, I did that for my 20s, all my 20s, basically. Did you have a following? I don't know.'ll i mean you did it was it was successful for what was 15 people that were always there were there shows that you yeah i mean i mean i kept doing it with my friends because it kept leading to interesting experiences

i wasn't making money but it was like like what like someone was like i'm putting together a puppet festival in bangkok would you like to come out here for a month? So yes, I will. So we did that. I ended up going to- You played Bangkok with the puppets. Yeah. Yeah.

I went to Ireland. I went all over. Really? With the puppets? And then Ars Nova eventually produced the show. Uh-huh. And it was a success for what it was. And then that led to getting um

an agent writing for humans yeah eventually like painfully i i've i've learned how to write for humans barely without much nuance because i didn't learn that because you don't need that with puppets no the puppets don't talk it's all right it's just television yeah the puppets don't have notes do you do you miss the puppets nick or i mean you should stop by my house the puppets don't talk back. It's all right. It's just television. Yeah, the puppets don't have notes. Do you miss the puppets, Nick? I mean, you should stop by my house. The puppets are still there. Yeah, he still lives among them. I just took them out of the boxes,

and I'm trying to find a place for them in my life again. Okay, so when you were doing this, who were your heroes? Were you thinking like, this is a career that I respect creatively. I'm going to emulate that. a career that I respect creatively. I'm going to emulate that. Was it like a Jim Henson or? I mean, everyone loves Jim Henson.

I wasn't emulating him because I wanted to make a puppet show that didn't look like the Muppets or those like plush puppets that are in everything. Right. Is saving Sarah Marshall somehow based on you? Oh, God. No, and that was the bane of my existence at the time. Because that's when I was like deep in it.

And for a while, I was very proud to be a puppeteer. Yeah, yeah, sure. Whatever. You enter a conversation at least with that. Yeah. And that was my calling card. And women love it. Women loved it.

It was the best of times. Uh-huh. I was in my prime. But then Sarah Marshall came along and that hijacked the conversation. If I mention the puppet shows, they're like, oh, have you seen Sarah? Oh, really? Forgetting Sarah Marshall? Reigned on your brain?

Yeah, and then we'd have to talk about that fucking movie instead of me. The important work you were doing with puppets. Yeah. Uh-huh. So where'd you come from, Sasha? You have a sordid history, don't you? I sure do. I come from Miami Beach.

We're really going way back. That's the worst start I've ever heard. South Beach. Oh, my God. Yeah. How does that happen? I was born in the swamps of Everglades City. Really?

And then when I was three, we had to flee to Miami because my father wrote an article for Rolling Stone exposing all the drug dealers smuggling drugs up through the swamps of Everglades City to Miami. Pretty happy about that accomplishment? He wasn't. He was just, he thought it was a good story. He didn't actually fully think through. He was a journalist.

He was a journalist. Right. He was not anti-drug. He just was a journalist. Right. He was not anti-drug. He just was a journalist. Right. So ended up growing up in Miami Beach and knew that I. Like. No.

On the run. He. Once we got to Miami, it was sort of, it wasn't, he was, you know what? I don't know why no one killed him, actually. He was safe for whatever reason. Wow. And continued to be a journalist. That sounds like a good story in and of itself.

It is. He'll tell that story. He could tell you that story. Who was protecting him. I know. Yeah. Well, he, yeah. I still don't know all the details of what really went on, but crazy place to grow up. He was a writer. I knew I wanted to be a writer. I knew I wanted to write for television. So I moved to LA when I was 21. Really? And immediately started waitressing.

Right, of course. And waitressed at the Improv years ago where I crossed paths with you, but you didn't, you weren't aware of my existence. You were never a big watcher. But I was very aware of your existence. Really?

I was not a big waitress. I didn't get involved. I don't know. You were smart. Well, I knew it happened and it's not like it didn't happen in my life, but like I just didn't do it because like how many of those conversations

where you're like, who am I following? You know, like we're not on stage, but I mean literally, which guys do I know? Sure. Yeah. And are they funnier than me?

There's that. Like you fucked him? Yeah. He's a hack. You can't believe you fucked him. Totally. So, all right. So you fucked some Yeah. Like you fucked him? Yeah. Right. He's a hack. He's a hack, yeah. You can't believe you fucked him. Totally. So, all right. So you fucked some comics.

So I fucked some comics and learned how to write a joke. Did you? Is that one of the reasons you took the gig there? I did. I was an assistant on a late night show

and I knew that I would never be a writer on that show because they would never hire me as a writer. The Late Late Show with Craig Kilborn. Oh, really? Yes.

And I learned a lot about joke writing by watching the writers but knew I wouldn't get a shot and I thought my time is going to be better served actually

cocktailing, making a little money, listening to comics all night long. Did you learn? I did. I learned. I learned why jokes land.

I learned the rhythm of jokes. Just on your own. No one was telling you. No, just by listening. Just by listening and absorbed. And then was having a hard time breaking into TV and then was having a hard time breaking into movies and then started writing articles

and immediately got LA Weekly. And I wrote a couple articles for Playboy and I wrote a couple articles for Maxim. Back when there were magazines. When there were actual magazines and then one of my articles took off it was called

How to Get Divorced by 30 and then within one week I got a movie deal at Universal and a book deal at Penguin so it took 10 years

to be an overnight success that's pretty low that's like a good number it was a good yeah so that it can take a lot longer now. It can take a lot longer than 10 years.

For me, I know it was 25. Yeah. So like, you know, I was on that plan. You were on the 25 year plan. Yeah.

Well, you're doing pretty well now. I've given up on it, you know, but it was, yeah, it's 25 years. So,

okay, so there you were. You got these deals, but deals don't necessarily mean anything. Was the book a bestseller? The book was not a bestseller, but it did okay. Yeah.

And then from that, and then I wrote the movie script, which of course, the movie's never going to get made, but it did okay. And then from that, and then I wrote the movie script, which of course the movie's never going to get made, but it put me on the map for features. And then I've continued to write movies. And then from there have sort of consistently developed in TV. And then... All right, well, let's not just brush over that.

Okay, all right. So have you had any movies made? No, no, God, no. How many movie scripts have you sold? Seven, seven movie scripts at seven studios all across town and you know every now and again i get a call that so and so just you know attach themselves to something and then i get another call in three months saying that's not gonna happen yeah seven scripts you got paid for and they're still sort of active if they i would say two out of the seven are active

uh-huh yeah and then what was your first TV job? My first TV job was actually selling a half hour to NBC with a friend of mine. And that was called My Best Friend's a Lesbo because she's a lesbo. And that did not go to series, but it was a great experience. That was four years ago. So this is sort of as the heyday is ending of making huge money

on half hour development deals and selling scripts. Yeah. And then I had such a great experience working in TV even though it didn't end up airing that I really focused on TV and then got a job

working on Carrie Diaries which was a delightful show which was the prequel to Sex and the City end up airing that I really focused on TV and then got a job working on Carrie Diaries, which was a delightful show, which was the prequel to Sex and the City about Carrie Bradshaw. Yeah. Which was really... And that was just a couple of years ago? A couple of years ago. Last gig I had, Carrie Diaries and then Development. And then this show, I actually watched Glow as a child and loved it.

And so when I read this pilot, I thought it was amazing. Why did you love it? I thought as a little girl, I thought that some of those women were so pretty. They were. They were so glamorous and fancy. Their outfits were so shiny and sparkly. And I would just watch them come out in this sort of glitzy glamour and then get like down and dirty and sweat and be badass.

And it really spoke to me in a way of like sort of the high low of it all. Like, ooh, I can be pretty, but I can also kick ass. And grunt. And grunt. And I just, I remember Chainsaw loving

and I remember the Southern Bells towards the end of the later series had the Southern Bells with their big hoop skirts and Hollywood and Vine. I love the Bad Girls. I loved it. And you watched it as a kid too? No, I remember it.

I didn't watch it a lot. I remember my mother seeing them on Donahue, I think. Donahue. And thinking it was hilarious and telling me all about it. And then I watched it, I think. Donahue. And thinking it was hilarious and telling me all about it. And then I watched it, I think, a couple times. But I was a little bit too little. I remember the appearance on Married with Children.

Yeah. Were you a wrestling guy? No, I wasn't. I should have been, but you would think I was, but I wasn't. What was your last TV gig? We didn't go over your TV history. We went over puppets and we stopped.

Well, I was on Orange is the New Black. For Jenji. For four years, yeah. I wasn't. What was your last TV gig? We didn't go over your TV history. We went over puppets and we stopped. Well, I was on Orange is the New Black for four years. For four years. Like, yeah. Until now. And that was your first TV job? Yeah. I mean, I developed some things too, but it was my first staffing job. So you went to the school of Genji?

I went to the school of Genji. I moved to L.A. for genji for that job once i got it and i've been here like four and a half years later and but you did a few we already talked about it right yeah i did a couple yeah but this is the first like you love this one more than the others yeah it's much more like me you know like because it's one thing to work on sort of network television that's like a little bit i mean not bad but it's it is what it is it's like a this is how you do it. Right. Real network television is a nightmare.

Yeah. And then you've got to deal with showrunners who think they know everything. And then you've got to deal with executives that don't know anything but have to pretend like they know things. And it's the worst. Yeah. And I didn't even have to deal with that. I was at IFC. So how did you get this gig?

Well, I mean. Well, you were in house almost. I mean, I was in house, but also like Carly was on Orange's New Black last season. And, you know, we were already friends. Carly, our showrunner. Carly Mitch. Our leader.

One of our leaders. One of our leaders. And I was actually on a hike with her in Griffith Park when she got the call that Netflix was going to pick up the show to series. You know, that's a holy shit moment yeah and obviously i'm i'm thrilled for her but i'm also like fuck well i guess you're not going to be coming back to orange next year right right you know and she was one of my you

know allies yeah and you need allies in a writer's room you do as asasha will tell you no i don't i don't know what i mean i mean. We're all allies in this room. In this room, I think we're all allies. Yes. I've had the experience where two people agree more often than two others. And if one person calls in sick, then suddenly there's not enough of the people on your side to push a bill through. Oh, really? But isn't that really kind of relative to the showrunner i mean is it really kind of i think yeah i do think the showrunner is not always in the room also you know like the showrunner has so many duties that like while the showrunner's away you know the room runs itself sometimes oh

see i never had that experience because like my room was like, I had my showrunners, and there was me and three other guys. That was the whole crew. Right. So they were there for all the writing. And they were writers on it. And it would go through me, and then it would sort of go through them. But we'd just sit there looking at each other.

There was no real clicks. You know, everyone was sort of. That's good. That's better. Well, I think there's a good room. There's a couple versions of that, though. Because sometimes it's just like a, it's not like calculated or anything it's just like an affinity you know like you just get along better with so you connect with somebody better

and then there's the other version of it where there really is this like insane political clusterfucked where people are being like strategic about who they sort of suck up to and who they shut out in the room yeah and that the worst. I mean, that's like the horrible, that's when it feels like you're going to work in like Game of Thrones and, you know,

people are like forging alliances against you. Well, this doesn't feel like that because, you know, there's not that weird network pressure

and, you know, clearly Netflix is like, here, have some money. You need more money? Here's some more money. And do you have enough

to eat on set? Is that? Yeah. There's more food coming really nice like from top i also think that carly and liz did a good job of hiring like the right people for the right reasons where do you meet with them how did how did you get the i got a call from my agents that uh this genji show was you know netflix based on this thing called glow and i was like holy shit I know about

Glow I'm I was obsessed with Glow as a little girl and I read the pilot and they had read my HBO pilot so they brought me in for a meeting and I just sat down with Liz and Carly and Tara who's Genji's producing partner and just said I love this script and I want this job and I kind of was very forthcoming and not like trying to be cool or play games and um no one else had said that no one else said they liked it I think when you go look when there's staffing season and you go from meeting to meeting meeting with showrunners to get staffed you can have a certain armor of like whatever you know I don't care or whatever wherever I land is fine or I have so many options.

And I think that having that armor is safe because most of the time you never get a job and you have to have armor. But for this particular situation, I had no armor. You were excited. I was really excited and really genuinely thrilled to try and be a part of this.

And I think that that's, you know, maybe what it doesn't always happen. Cause I think the dream of writers usually is to deliver a show of their own. So like, you know, the more you try to do that along with going in for writing jobs, you get beat down. So if you,

if you create, developed a bunch of shows, you tried to sell shows and it never happened. And you're going on 20, 30 years of this shit, you know, you just getting a writing job is not that big a deal and it's just something you crankily kind of yeah yeah yeah well i think jenji fosters an environment which and i think liz and carly do as well where

every everyone they hire gets to feel invested yeah Yeah, they're very generous that way. Which makes us come in with our best work, you know, and staves off the sense of being jaded, and it's just a job. I think we're made to feel like we're all making this thing together, which is amazing. Which is great. I didn't know if I was going to be able to take this job.

It was like a very dramatic week because i was on supergirl and we didn't know if we were coming back and they kept not telling us and there was all this like weird negotiation behind the scenes and nobody would like sort of give anyone a straight answer about anything and so the producers at supergirl were like look we want we all want we want you all back but like we don't know what's going to happen so you should go on other meetings and if anybody gets something that they really want to take take it and we'll let you go and it won't be a problem and then everything kind of happened all at the same time where I went on like two meetings I went on you know this one which sort of you know I remember you came into my house and you're like Liz and Carly just got the show picked up and then like UTA called me

the next day and they're like do you how well do you know Liz Playhouse and Carly mentioned I was like pretty well and it was like this whole thing and so then I had the meeting and then then they were you know taking a while to kind of figure everything out I think in terms of like budget or whatever it was and um and I was still waiting to hear about this and then I got another offer on another show and I and they were like well she has to get out of Supergirl though and so we were going to maybe try to do that and then I got the offer for Glow and I was like let's I want to do Glow let's do Glow but then there was all this weird back and forth because then Supergirl. And so we were going to maybe try to do that. And then I got the offer for Glow. And I was like, let's I want to do Glow. Let's do Glow. But then there was all this weird back and forth, because then Supergirl got like picked up the same day to the CW, and they weren't going to let me

out of the contract. And so there had to be all this like weird back channel stuff. And it was, it was really tense. Yeah, that's why we have agents. Yeah, that's why we have agents. And I was in first position on another thing and had an intense weekend leading up to taking this and was actually on my way to Greenland with my mother and sister. Oh, yeah. And was on a flight. The Greenland?

The Greenland. The Greenland. It's not like the name of a supermarket. No, it's the actual Greenland. And was on a flight from JFK to Copenhagen on the plane when I got the call from my agent saying, get off the plane. You have to start Monday. And I raced off the plane, then took a cab from JFK to Newark, got on a plane, Newark

to LA and was in the room Monday morning and sent my mother and sister to Greenland without me. Oh my God. I was just pacing my living room, like weeping to my agents on the phone. It's very dramatic. I was just pacing my living room like weeping to my agents on the phone. It's very dramatic. It was very dramatic. It's weird though, the stakes seem awfully high

for something that doesn't seem to, like there's no life or death to it, but like those moments where you get a call back and you're like, well fuck, I gotta fly. Yeah. I hate that about show business.

It's true. It's like you end up doing nothing forever and then all of a sudden there's a panic to do like a five minute thing with an executive. Well, the one day you finally book the vacation is the day you get the call

to get off the plane. It's a good way to guarantee that. You should always book. It's like going to the bathroom and then your food comes. But I like that when that happens. I go to the bathroom on purpose to make the food come.

I remember. Yeah, it's a surprise. I do realize that some fancier restaurants Will not put the food down If you're not there though Really Yeah

That's so passive aggressive Yeah Did they know that you're In the bathroom Just to make them Bring the food Doing a childish trick So it's like a game of chicken

Who can wait longer Game of chicken But yeah I mean I had to be at a meeting A general meeting For Fox Studios Way back

And I was moving From new york for this fox deal this is why i came out to la in 2002 because i had a deal with fox and we're driving a u-haul across country to move and the fucking u-haul that we rented in new york broke down like it's somewhere in pennsylvania like it was just horrible we had it because it was middle of the night i had to be there you know the day like i only had a certain amount of days to get there, and it was cutting into it. We had to shift to another U-Haul, and we had,

it was a disaster, and it was very difficult for the woman that I was with. But we made it. But we made it. Did you make the meeting? It changed your life. Did nothing. Yeah.

The script, you know, I wrote the script with a guy, it went nowhere. In the beginning, everything's a big break. Yeah. The script, I wrote the script with a guy, it went nowhere. In the beginning, everything's a big break. Yeah. And then you have like 20 breaks

where nothing happened when you did everything perfectly. And then you actually have something happen that just came out of nowhere. Yeah. So you're just like, whatever.

You just stay busy and things happen. But all these meetings eventually sort of add up to some sort of presence or or something experience yeah having meetings and being known by people yeah yeah well then they're like oh my god we love mark even though you had like one 15 minute conversation 12 years ago yeah that was never what they said about me for a long time it's like how is he i find it weird doing when You have general meetings where you're meeting the same people who are now working at different studios.

Right. And they already know you. Or do they? But then you realize it's their job just to have you come in. What do they fucking do? They do nothing. They do nothing. They're just like, with comics, general meetings, they're like, well, who can entertain us today?

Yeah. They have to justify their dumb jobs. And they're just, bring some writers in. What are you doing after lunch? It's the worst. Our futures are hanging. I know them.

I shouldn't be talking like this about these lovely executives, but I don't give a fuck. But our future is hanging in their hands. So what did you have to do to get up to speed on wrestling? I knew nothing about it and I was so relieved at BTOL that I didn't need to. They were like, no, your guy wrestling I knew nothing about it and I was so relieved to be told

that I didn't need to like they were like no your guy doesn't know anything about it I'm like perfect well we didn't know that I mean I didn't know I'm a little bit of a fan

I mean I was a little bit of a fan of watching wrestling and knew a teeny little amount I was on this medical show and that's how we used to and then like you had the idea

of the story and then there'll be a scene with some medical medical and we'll figure that out and we had like a had the idea of the story, and then there'd be, and then there'll be a scene with some medical, medical, and we'll figure that out, and we had like a liaison to the, he was like,

so figure out like, what would really happen if your liver shut down or whatever. Right. And you would just, they'd like put in like a bunch of like gibberish

that like the audience doesn't really pay attention to, and then you just go on with the scene. Anyone could do what we do. A monkey could do it. But the weird thing about wrestling,

the thing that makes it interesting is that, is that how like the big shift right in the first two episodes is how do you take a volatile you know broken trust you know betrayal of a friendship and then put that at the core right of you know the the heel in the face dynamic of wrestling i mean mean, so like right from the beginning, it becomes a personal story, but then it just translates immediately to the ring.

Yeah. Well, that was the cool thing that we kind of found out about wrestling is that it does, it's like this larger than life encapsulation of like problems, you know, it has all this, because when they go in the ring,

it's like there's these beefs, you know, and there's like this kind of soap opera and that this has been going on and so-and-so stole whoever's woman and then they were humiliated by this other person. So it's this constant like sort of settling of scores that you're supposed to believe is real. And so it was interesting to sort of take that construct and apply it to this show where there were real things happening, you know. Right. That like stuff actually happened off stage and like all of that backstory that's fake in the wrestling world was real in this one

now when when you look if if it you know you think ahead like i i didn't when i was doing my show i just assumed every season would be the last season but it seems like this world as a world is completely unique uh for a lot of reasons but also you have so many fucking characters that like to fill another two seasons doesn't seem like that big of a stretch if it happens does it yeah i could go on yeah i think it could go on a really long time yeah well we have what we have 15 main characters so we could have 15 seasons yeah i think 15 seasons that's right, right? Well, I think in a way and maybe,

I mean, I think it's like the orange is the new black template in the terms of like the scope of the cast and you can kind of focus in on different characters at different times.

Right. With orange, it's based on a memoir where a woman goes into prison for just over a year, you know, but you can,

you can have the same stories happen but you just say like this episode takes place in a day or half a day yeah you can you can move very slowly and and by when i say pace i mean just mean the sort of the time frame of this the time frame you know not that it moves right so like you're saying that this could be we could keep this 1986 1987 for four years yeah absolutely i mean this whole season is supposed to be what like 10 weeks or something yeah in real time oh right right yeah but but it's but back to what it is cool though to have like that sort of deeper bench yeah no kidding you know it's because because i think too like coming

off network television where you have these characters that are like set from the beginning and there's this pressure to like service every single one of them in every episodes and some of them just don't pop or they don't work or the story you had for them doesn't and you still have to think of something for them to do like it's so nice to be able to just have someone like have one line in an episode and you'll get to them later yeah there's still like like when i look at the cast on the wall here like there's still so many backstories that have not been exported at all. Really just hints. Yeah.

Yeah. Just hints. There's really only two or three main backstories in this, in this season. And I, I think it's nice for the actors to, to sort of have a, a lot of time to feel out their characters.

So that, but so that, you know, in season two or three, when we get to some of those like deep bench characters,, we've thought about them and we've watched those actors performing so much that a whole lot of story has already been suggested. And they feel so real. And they will know exactly how to play it. There's not this thing about having to set them up and introduce them out of nowhere.

I mean, that's kind of the great thing about Orange is when people come forward and suddenly have stories, you've just sort of seen them in the background already for like three years. You're used to seeing them, and it doesn't feel like this new jarring person that you have to explicate. Right. But by next season, they're all going to know how to wrestle. And by the end of this season, I believe we're going to be wrestling, like for real, right, in a show. Yeah. So then like next season you'll be able to frame episodes

with actual matches right yeah it's only it's just going to get more and more exciting right because the drama

will ramp up at the same time that the wrestling violence will ramp up and the show will like start to get successful like they'll start to have a presence in

the show within the show the show within the show you know they'll start to go they'll start to have like fans in. The show within the show. The show within the show. You know they'll start to go out. They'll start to have like fans. Because right now they're all unknown within the show. That's exciting. So who do you think the audience is?

Because I keep thinking like. How can teenage girls not like this? I think the audience is a lot of different people. I agree. It's teenage girls. It's older. It's women that watched it as little girls it's men who are

obsessed with wrestling it's gay guys who love the camp of what Flo used to be but I hope so much that young I don't know a single gay guy

who's like 37 who didn't watch Flo is a little guy is that true? yeah totally it was like such a gateway show for like

young gay boys a gateway show because you're right it was like a safe thing to watch without because you weren't watching beauty pageants. No, you were watching

wrestling. You were watching wrestling. Yeah. Strong women. Yeah. You guys did a great job.

I enjoyed working with all of you. I enjoyed saying your lines. Was there any problems? Anybody? With me?

Did you have any problems? No, no problems. I really, I. Nick was sort of waiting for a pop. There was a couple of... I was delightfully surprised

by your attitude. Nick doesn't like having his like only man in the room kind of challenged, I think. It's like a cock of the walk thing. You came in and he was no longer the one cock. He was no longer the one cock.

I used to be the male consultant when people had questions about what it's like to be a man and what a male character would do. But I feel like I've lost my edge. Oh, come on. I mean i mean not because you came in but i've just been around only women for so long i don't even remember what being a man is like well it's funny because when the first time we i did one of your scripts i i knew you were kind of ready to you know take the fight a little bit like well what's it when's the problem gonna happen sure and then there was i was uh which

episode was that first one because Because I remember there were some things where I was like, can I do it like this? But then it came around to where like yours was okay. Was I funny? Three? Three.

Who did I fight the one ball on? Was it the one ball? You fought me on that. On the one ball. On the one ball. Yeah. And it's probably going to be cut

in editing anyways. But that's the way it goes. But I mean, episode three was a long haul for me that which one was that uh it was the one where you go to the party in malibu oh right yeah episodes three are always hard like episode three is always the hardest really my experience yeah because i feel like you've got the pilot the pilot's done when you start then everyone knows

what's going to happen things that were set up and then three it's like oh now it's a show and so now you set up what will take you through the season well you were actually the only one like i don't know if it's a confidence thing or not but like there was all you're always writing jokes you know or things like on set like you maybe try it like that and then maybe try it like that and then like and then we do it and then and then you ultimately be like let's just do it i mean the truth is i actually don't have so much confidence in the written word i only know things until i see them in the monitor you're always like like when we would do plays you were always giving alts and things like that and i i don't like to do that and we would fight and yell at each other. Well, we've worked together, by the way.

Yeah, it's true. We've written plays together. We've written plays together. Really? Yeah. It's too late to talk about that now, but no, it's always time. It's been a long time.

Yeah. Really? You guys were like tight and you do plays? These two are like best friends. Oh, really? Yeah. We do stuff. We do stuff.

Are those plays, have they been produced? Yeah. Yeah. Published? Mm-hmm. have they been produced? Yeah. Yeah. Published? Mm-hmm. They're out there. What are they called? They're out there.

We wrote a play called The Nosemaker's Apprentice, Chronicles of a Medieval Plastic Surgeon, which is as comedy as it sounds. The ancient art of nose making. And we wrote one about a brothel in turn ofof-the-century Chicago called The Sporting Life. Yeah, prostitutes. Which we've turned into a pilot and are shopping around with Gingy. Oh, really? Mm-hmm.

Oh, that's exciting. Oh, it's a musical. It's a musical. It's a musical? Yeah. Musical television show about prostitutes in old-timey Chicago. And perversions. Everyone's just fighting over it.

Well, you never know. It's a big landscape now yeah it's true CISO will pick it up CISO's hot right now I think it's a place to get some money

I heard Nabisco's getting into the game oh well did you really really but do you see I thought we all believed that Nabisco's

gonna have a network anything's possible Nabisco alright you guys well hopefully it's all gonna, we're gonna do more, right? Yeah.

Hopefully, we'll be together for many years. Many years. We'll see each other through many life spaces. Okay. Many marriages. Thanks for talking.

Yes. All right, this is fun. That was Rachel shukert nick jones sasha rothschild the writer's room at glow and uh they did a great job i mean you saw their work they did it they did a great job. So, Carly Mensch, Liz Flahive. These were pretty seasoned writers, the two of them were, before they got to glow. Gorgeous ladies of wrestling. Liz Flahive wrote on Nurse Jackie, Homeland. She was a playwright before that. You may know her plays.

From Up Here and The Madrid are two of her may know her plays uh from up here and the uh the madrid are two of her shows her plays carly mensch wrote for weeds nurse jackie orange is the new black and she's also a playwright who wrote all hail hurricane gordo and len asleep in vinyl seasoned writers in at least two disciplines and they created the gorgeous ladies of wrestling, the show that I am on. And this is me talking to them here in the garage. Are you guys nervous in front of microphones? Have you never?

I've never done this before. I've never done this, and I don't think I like the sound of my own voice, so I'm sure there'll be a... Oh, my God. But I'm psyched. You're psyched. I have talked to the other writers about you guys,

specifically, at length, and how difficult you were to work with, and I think we should just address that. It's fine. Go for it. Hit hard. So, all right. Liz Flahive, Carly Mensch.

You are, I don't even know why I'm setting up like this. So you guys created and were the showrunners of Glow, which I'm on. You are. Which was good. Good experience for me. How was it for you guys? It was pretty idyllic. Yeah.

I mean, I feel like getting through making the first season of your first show. And like, I only cried once. When did you cry when trump won yeah exactly that was a night that everything fell apart that was a tough day on set yeah no it was really 14 women yeah wow it was everyone was just sort of like what what happened no everyone everyone just slowly crumbled disbelief and horror yeah and we're pretending it's 1985 on set too, so it felt like we were- Right. Retreating back to where we actually were setting the show. It's all relevant again.

Well, it's funny because when we pitched the show, I remember we kind of started with, well, we're on the verge of having our first female president. I mean, I think we literally said, this is a great time for women. Yeah. We're about to elect our first female president- Right. By this show. So, all right.

So tell me how, like, where did you guys know each other from not working together on a show, but from how? We met in New York.

We were both at a writer's group at Ars Nova, which is this off-Broadway theater. And they started a writer's group for a bunch of playwrights.

I heard about this. Did I talk to somebody else? Who was in that? Was Stephen Karam in that? Did you tell me? He was not in our year. Our year year had we were the first year and it was two writers on our show yeah nick jones and rachel shuker that's right yeah but william on lynn manuel miranda there's mary weather oh lynn manuel miranda was in it yeah and he would riff

on the piano when i think nick brought in a play about nick brought in a musical he brought in a musical called little building. And he's like I wrote this musical but it has no music. And we're like well how do we read it? And Lynn was like well I'll just get on the piano and make stuff up. And we all improvised. Yeah. I played in Airport. I remember. And we all just improvised like songs and arias.

Then we had to read my shitty play afterwards and I was like Jesus. Oh that's the worst. It's a bad night to have brought something in. Were you reading the whole play or just parts of it? I think we all brought in snippets of things that weren't finished. And it was also like my jokiest, dumbest play about Sally Struthers. Like it was the... And right after Lin-Manuel riffed a musical.

Yeah. It's like, Carly, can we go over yours now? I was like, can I hide in the bathroom? But it was a great place. I mean, they gave us free beer and pizza twice a month, and we all hung out there. And it was just like a place that we could actually be. In workshop stuff? Yeah.

And even when we weren't there, I was like, I need to read this pilot. Can I have the space to do it? And we'd bring people together. They were just very supportive of their people, and they still are. And did you guys, you didn't write together, though? No, never. Not until this. to do it and we'd bring people together. They were just very supportive of their people and they still are. You didn't write together though? No, never. Not until this. Did you write whole plays?

Yeah. And they were produced? Yeah. How were they received? What was your first play called? My first play was called From Up Here. And Ars Nova was the first producer on it and then it sort of outgrew their little space and then we did it at Manhattan Theatre Club

in 07, 07, 08. And is it done now? It's done now. It's a lot of, there are a lot of young characters. So it's done now, like, like sometimes regionally, but a lot of colleges. So you're, you have a French's book. Oh yeah. Oh, we're both at Samuel.

Oh, that was like why we shot a scene there on the pilot. Yeah. That was our biggest, that was our biggest location. We're going to shoot at Samuel French. It's going to be thrilling. That was the scene with the acting class? Yeah. We were very precise about what plays were in the background.

No, we were not precise. We were picky as shit. Really? We were like, take that poster down. Take those plays off. We want these plays over here. We made set deck insane. We moved whole shelves of plays.

We were nightmares. And what was your play, big play? My first play was called All Hail Hurricane Gordo. It was in the Humana Festival of New Plays. Yeah. I thought it was going fantastically, and then we got a review from Charles Isherwood at the New York Times that I think was like three sentences that said something along the lines of,

I tried to find something nice to say about this play. Oh, really? He actually said that? Or you just... No, he actually... That's the verbatim. Like, I tried to find something nice to say about 23-year-old Carly Minch's whimsical play. Then he threw you under the bus on the age thing.

Yeah. Right, you know. They'll do that. So is yours being performed? That one actually does get performed. Was that the plan, though? Were you guys like, we're going to be playwrights? Or were you young, ambitious, forward-thinking people that were like, well, this is just a stepping...

Theater's going to be the future. No, was it a launching pad? Or you really thought theater was going to be the future? No, I mean, the people that I knew who could support themselves doing theater either had a trust fund or taught at universities or wrote TV. So I was like, well, I don't have a trust

fund and I don't know about teaching so maybe television. So that was sort of what I tried to jump on and off of my first play and see if there was anything. And how did you get that gig? What gig did you get? I got Miss Jackie. So that was it. You got, that was your first gig. My first gig.

And then it was my gig for seven seasons. And I grew up on that show, which was great because it shot in New York. It was Edie, Falco. Like the showrunners were great. Who are the showrunners? Who produced that thing? It was Linda Wallum and Liz Brixius. And people like that show.

I've not seen an episode of it. That's okay. Oh, I feel bad sometimes. I don't know how people find the time. I don't either. I mean not seen an episode of it. Yeah, that's okay. Oh, I feel bad sometimes. I don't know how people find the time. I don't either. I mean, it's cool, but I mean, it was a great show to work on, and I learned everything. She's great. She's

spectacular. Everybody was. Yeah. And, like, to make a TV show in New York feels like a unicorn situation, too. How many people were on the staff? It ballooned. It was, like, big at first, and then it contracted. It was, like, eight people, and then it was six people, and then it went back up again. You know, it depended on the year? It ballooned. It was like big at first and then it contracted. It was like eight people and then it was six people and then it went back up again. You know, it depended on the year and it changed. And it started writing out here and then it moved back to New York. So that was it. That's what you've done. You've written two plays and Nurse Jackie.

And then I did Homeland for a minute and then created Glow. You did Homeland for a minute? Yeah. I did Drama for a minute. It was crazy. Yeah? Yeah. What was the shift like? What happens? What's the difference? I mean, I went from being

great at my job to being terrible at my job. That was the biggest shift. But they were very cool to me. I mean, I got to, you know, produce something in Berlin. I got to come in for half a season.

They let me co-write a finale. It was... Less collaborative than comedy writing? Just different. I mean, like, the way you have to break... Like, I had never broken

an action sequence before, and that was... I don't even know what that means. Exactly. And it's just like... Stop, drop, the way you have to break, like, I had never broken an action sequence before. And that was. I don't even know what that means. Exactly. And it's just like. Stop, drop, and roll. Shoot the gun. Right.

But you're like, so they're in the tunnel. And then these guys are, you know, these guys are here. And this information is here. And we've got to get all these people. And it just, it's really, they're, and they're, they're good at it. But they're really rigorous and painstaking. It's as rigorous as the action on screen. It is.

The writing process is mentally rigorous. It was really rigorous and painstaking. It's as rigorous as the action on screen. The writing process is mentally rigorous. It was really rigorous. And, you know, you can't come in with like a nugget of delight or like this delightful thing that we can blossom into a story. It was just very poetic. No. Where's the gun? But I had to give a note, which was also maybe the last time I'll do this, which was like,

can we just lift that gun up higher so we can see it? Like, I'll probably never give that note again. I don't know. I might lose my shit in the second season of Glow if we get it. I should not say that now. We're going to have to have a fucking gun. Yeah, you're going to lift a gun up to my head. That's what that is.

The wrestling sequences are action-y. They are. I mean, that's the closest I think I'll ideally come. You have it very beautifully choreographed. I found myself, and I say it all the time, it was like watching ballet of some kind. I found it to be moving. As theater people, we only exclusively talk about the wrestling in terms of dance choreography.

Well, I told you guys when we got in there that it felt like a stage, that the ring is definitely a stage. It is. A squared circle. It's like a sacred space. It definitely had that feeling, you know, and when you're in it. Yeah, yeah. So, all right.

So, where'd you go? You wrote your four plays and then what happened? Actually, the first play, another playwright, Rollin Jones, who was working on Weeds at the time, came up to me after the play and said, I'm working on Weeds. I think Jenji would love this. Can I pass her your play? And until then, I hadn't even thought about TV, to be honest. Like, I was living in the bubble of this could work.

I was going to Juilliard at the time. You were? I was. As a playwright? As a playwright. That's fancy. Yeah. It sounds really fancy, and then really you just meet once a week for three hours and

feel bad about yourself and then get a stamp at the end. Oh, that's great. It's like being knighted. Yeah, right. And did you get knighted at Juilliard? I think I got knighted too early. I think I hadn't really found my voice. I had never studied theater. Yeah, right. And did you get knighted? I think I got knighted too early. I think I hadn't really found my voice. I had never studied theater,

so I felt a little bit like a fraud while I was there because I didn't know plays that well, but I was just at the point where I was getting really excited about them. But it'd be like I'd come into school and be like, have you guys heard of this guy Tennessee Williams? Because he's got some shit that we should we should talk about um and i didn't really know shakespeare and like the actors would get so excited over shakespeare and i'd be like

i'm so i just can't understand these plays i have a hard time with shakespeare i'm so confused why you guys are so excited these are so out of date biggest problem is drifting and then once you drift for five minutes in shakespeare you're like i'm fucked this is all pointless i don't know i was barely understanding it to begin with. I have premise problems, too. Like, I can't get on board with certain... When you start unwinding a premise, we're done. Like, King Lear, like, I just get so pissed at that

first scene where it's like, who starts a play by saying, like, who loves me the most? Like, I don't care about this guy. What do you mean? We just started a presidency like that. Yeah. It's very relevant, Carly. It's a very relevant play. Couldn't be more relevant. Yeah, It's very relevant, Carly. It's a very relevant play. Couldn't be more relevant. Yeah, the sort of angry ambition of aging people

is why we're in the mess we're in. It's true. I've had this conversation with her a lot of times. I bet. Over and over again. Well, and then I took this one class at school

where I was in opera class and she said, anytime you're not enjoying opera, walk out. Like, preserve your ability to love it in the future by just sparing yourself the pain of sitting there. And she said, anytime you're not enjoying opera, walk out. Preserve your ability to love it in the future by just sparing yourself the pain of sitting there. So you've never seen an opera all the way through. I've never seen an opera all the way through, but I applied it to Shakespeare.

So now I kind of like, I don't let myself sit there getting angry. If I'm connecting and getting it, I stay, but then. I think that's smart. I mean, I do that with my kids, too. I'll go home and try to read it. You leave your kids if they're not engaging. I leave my kids. Well, this is not working for me.

I'm going to walk out. You guys are boring me. Maybe take it up a notch. Do something fun and exciting. Like, where's mommy? It's like she couldn't. You weren't doing it for her. Not enough drama.

There can't be a shortage of drama with kids. There's not. So you've got two, right? I've got two. And now you have one in your stomach. I do. Yeah. Coming out in a month.

Yeah. Are you excited? That your stomach. I do. Yeah. Coming out in a month. Are you excited? That was a great question. Yeah. Oh, good. Sounds like it. Excited, confused, anxious. Confused?

What do you mean? You know how it happened. I think it's because I've been in denial for most of the months of this pregnancy, including while we were on set. Yeah. And it's so abstract for such a long time. And then I went to pregnancy, including while we were on set. Yeah. And it's so abstract. It's abstract. And then I went to that birthing class where they show you the 18 minute video of a couple labor.

And then you're like that just mathematically, that doesn't make sense. I don't know how you women do it. Yeah. Well, my original goal is just like, just go to the hospital and tell them to just get it out as fast as possible. I think that's fine. That's what my mother did. Yeah. Cut it right out.

Yeah. I don't need to be a hero. It's the next 18 years. I don't. Did you, how'd you do yours? Regular? Regular. Oh my God.

Through my vagina. So. Both of them. So what do you tell her to, what's the advice you're getting from your pal? It's one day. That's the good one even. She keeps telling me like, it's one day. It's one day.

It's like you're, it's like if everyone in Frank said about their, it's one day of your life. It's one day. It's like you're wet. It's like what are you going to focus on, like the wedding or the marriage? It's like the birth or the life of the baby. Right. It's one day. It'll be what it is.

I imagine you hit a threshold of pain where you just transcend. It's called the ring of fire. There's a name for it. Yeah? I've learned the terminology. I remember I did a lot of, I would like have contractions and just hit things rhythmically to like name for it. Yeah? I've learned the terminology. I remember I did a lot of, I would have contractions and just hit things rhythmically to get through it. Wow. And then I'd stop.

My husband fell asleep for a lot of my, I was like, so how long was that? He's like, I don't know, I fell asleep. Dozed off. And I was like, all right, well, here we go. It's happening. Yeah, this is going to go. My plan is to watch the Great British Baking Show. That's good.

That'll really cool you out. At some point during the season, the child will have slipped out. Oh, really? Just like, oh, look. Oh, that was that hilarious scene. And what was it? What's that Monty Python movie? I don't remember what it was,

but there's just a woman washing dishes and there's nine kids around and one just falls out of her. She's like, oh, there's another one. It was the meaning of life, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so you're both writing on these different shows, but you knew each other. And then how does it evolve?

Like, where do you make this decision? Well, I had moved up in the ranks on Nurse Jackie. Yeah. But the creators had left, and then these other EPs had come in. And then I got promoted to EP and got to help them hire the room. Yeah. And one of the first people I ran after was Carly. So I'm like, I get Carly in this room.

But was she working? You were not. I was a playwright, which means. Yeah. But wait, this is before Weeds? After Weeds. After Weeds. So you had done TV.

So I'd done three years of Weeds. Then I was taking a year off to write some plays. Then I did Nurse Jackie. Then I did Orange. Okay. Oh, so you brought her. I get it. I get it. So you were like, fuck TV. I was taking a year off to write some plays. Then I did Nurse Jackie. Then I did Orange. Okay. Oh, so you brought her. It's like folded in there. I get it.

I get it. So you were like, fuck TV. I was like. She says, I mean, you do, like you said no to a lot of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. You really had your heart set on being a big playwright, huh? Not even a big playwright.

There's just something romantic about being in New York and writing things no one will ever read or see. Yeah, romantic. Reaching almost no one will ever read or see. Yeah, romantic. Reaching almost no one. I find theater like this ritual special space that I can't let go of in terms of, like I'm someone who is, that's the closest place to spirituality I have. Oh yeah? I kind of find it. Do you go a lot?

I go all the time. And it's the one thing I miss the most about New York is I think I see like three plays a week at least in New York when I'm there and really yeah well she lives in Midtown but it's like you can just do that I know yeah just there it breaks my heart what I'm missing right now I know but like as I got older even maybe when I was younger I started like is it good because I don't know if I can you see so many duds you have to put up with a lot of shit to get to the good stuff but then I feel like the good stuff is so, so much better than anything else.

It's so magical, yeah. It's just, I feel, I don't want to feel bad. Yeah. Like when I see bad theater, it's not sort of like this sucks. It's like, oof. You're trapped. You're in a room that you can't leave.

Yeah, because sometimes you literally are. Yeah. There's like four other people. When I see a bad play, I literally try to go across the street and go to the movies and like eat as much candy and popcorn and be like, fuck you theater.

I'm having so much fun. I'm being entertained. I can eat. I like it. I'm very moved by it. And I would go more. Maybe if I lived in New York at this age, I would go more. Something to do.

Yeah. And it's human. It's very human, yeah. Yeah. There's something about seeing spit. Someone made that. I can see. Seeing people, like the actual spit come out of their mouth and seeing them shuffle around.

You hear the boards. It's exciting. And being rehearsal is kind of the best. I mean, I like having plays perform, but I love a rehearsal room. Time just works differently too. Well,

no, that's why it's, that's why it's so essential and why it was always considered essential is there's a real humanity to it. That the power of people on stage with their own voice to move stories and elevate is like, it's amazing. It is, but, because I feel like I get asked this a lot,

like how is theater and TV different and do they inform each other when you work on both? And I find TV very human too and mostly because you can use a camera to get up in someone's face and really see. Well, yeah, you have a lot more.

It's a different type of humanity, but I. No no no i know i i see what you're saying but i i'm just like the the point it's very handmade and very kind of well there's a distance you know you you you your engagement with it can is your decision whereas a play i mean your engagement with it is pretty present you may be drifting yes but you know there's someone demanding something of you on stage. Whereas a TV, you're like. In real time. Mute it. You can't mute the guy.

Right. You also can't mute the people in the bathroom after your play talking about your play. Yeah. Which I actually kind of like. I used to hate and now I kind of love. That's the second act. The second play. The sequel.

Yeah. The sequel. Just sitting in the bathroom. Has anyone done that? Where the first act is like the play and then this entire second act is the bathroom that'd be funny not bad all right so so she's on nurse jackie you hired her yeah and then we did that for two seasons and then at the and then we just started talking about i mean we loved working together right and then we never wrote together we just kind of worked together

well in a room. Yeah. And it just felt organically fun. So where'd the concept come from? Yeah, so I was watching this documentary. It felt insane that this world of women's wrestling in the 80s hadn't been explored since. Yeah. It felt like it hit a lot of

themes and places we wanted to go. The GLOW documentary. The GLOW documentary and just the world of we've been talking about because we'd both written for shows about badass weird women yeah um but i don't think we'd ever talked about maybe going back into the 80s and looking at like what was life like for women in the 80s anyway i saw this insane thing i came liz was on maternity leave i was home with my colicky daughter yeah so i needed some stuff to do we watched it within 30 seconds we're like we should work on this i think we sent i

think that day we sent jenji an email it was like i was like liz not even a pitch no it was a one line email i was like do you want to make a tv show about women's wrestling in the 80s and i think her response was just yes yeah and then we basically like went away for a you know we had to deal with like the rights and then looking into that but then we just went went away for a you know we had to deal with like the rights and then looking into that but then we just went away for almost a year and worked on the pilot and then kind of had to make it our own and get into the story and rewrite it a million times and we break it a million times we also knew nothing we also we both knew nothing about wrestling and also didn't like wrestling that much so it took us a while to kind of find our

our way in that felt honest but also kind of embracing the insane and that way in was through the personalities of the women in a way and i think on a meta level like we we chose us we chose a specific show about women who knew nothing about wrestling who became wrestlers so we could kind of go on the journey with them as they figured out like what the hell this and also the the premise being that you know it was put together as a tv show really yeah yeah that that helps that a lot yeah and then like there's something about being on set for me those outfits and i was conscious and awake like in the 80s i graduated high school in 81 so i'm i'm already like 23 when that's happening.

Right. Yeah. And they were so... Like, I like that you guys played it so straight and it wasn't campy other than the nature of it, essentially. That was a big part of it for us. To not overplay it. Yeah.

To just play it straight. Well, we have the ring, which is this heightened campy space. So then the fun of the show seems to be finding how to use the ring versus real life as a way to. You know, to casually deal with the 80s fashion is difficult because it was so just casually what women did with their hair just to go out in the morning. That was a big conversation when we were just talking to, you know, when we were hiring makeup heads and department heads. We were talking about just wanting this sort of like dusty, realistic late 70s and 80s. So it felt like you weren't being bombarded by like neon and studs and stuff like that. We went through a lot of our old pictures, too, so that we would make sure we were.

The pastels were just unnerving. Oh, yeah. Beth Morgan called it her coral dream. It was just like a real. I just don't like it. There were days where I'm like, how did anyone think this was a good idea? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

The crew was so amazing and respectful, too, because there were a lot of women in leotards, and they were very, very cool. But I remember I got a text one day from Christian Springer, our DP, that just said, you know, I just want to check in with you. There's a lot of nipple showing right now. It's just a little cold in here.

So I wonder if maybe we turn down the AC. Let me know. From the beginning, like one of the things that attracted us to the show is how uncomfortable we were with women in bathing suits. You know, wrestling for mostly a male audience. Yeah. Like that discomfort is a male audience. Yeah. Like, that discomfort is where we started. Right. We didn't want you to be comfortable, even though, I mean, they look amazing.

But also, like, it's both exploitative and empowering at the same time, and it should never be just one. And wrestling is like attract and repel for us, too. It feels to me that what was going on on set would, in real time, them learning and them building these relationships and also doing this ballet of wrestling and creating these personas was happening both in reality and on screen. It's why we planned the first season to go so slowly and to reflect the actual learning

process of how long it would take to pick up these moves and to even understand the like the inner logic of what a wrestling match is i think there was a day on set where they were four weeks into training yeah and it occurred to chavo our wrestling trainer he was like raise your hand if you know how a wrestling match ends not a single person raised their hand and we realized of course it wasn't obvious to any of us like we were just learning the moves like we didn't know how you win and none of the writers knew either well but did you knew that there was a script yeah we knew that wrestling was scripted but in terms of just like physically how it works oh you mean the count and all that yeah the counter like how do you know when it's done and like what does that we don't know your two shoulders need to

touch the ground like no one told us that. Yeah. Wow. They told us. I mean, we were beginners and we would, and it was great because we would actually go and watch them learn, watch them train. Oh, but Allison, like, oh, that's the other thing I want to say is like, how did you guys when kind of like, did you know how that relationship would go? What relationship? Me and Allison, because that turned into something.

We didn't know. I mean, honestly, it was a lot of it was like like we had stuff in the script that we you know we knew sort of the primary arcs of a lot of those you know our main characters but I feel like it's also stuff that when you see you know I mean it was like how vibey you guys were how great you were together how great she and Betty are together I mean that yeah we took cues, but I think we had hoped that there would be some type of a connection. We just didn't fully know what kind of a connection it would be. And then it was... The one with me and Allison is kind of odd.

It is. And it's like touching somehow. I don't know what to do with Betty. In character, out. She's a force. Yeah, she's... She's a real force. She's amazing. I mean mean we've known her for a

long time because betty has you know is in the theater world and like she's done readings of my plays and then she was on nurse jackie and so we've sort of seen what she can do and now i feel like she's like i'm excited to unleash her on the world so how what was the casting process like and and tell me about me because like i'd like to know because like i got that thing i wasn't anticipating doing anything i was not planning on doing anything we did not we did not even bring you into a room i know we cast you off a tape i know but it was but i was told you weren't looking at people here what do you mean that we weren't looking at people in LA no like I got a script here's how this went yeah tell us on your side then we'll tell you on our side I think somebody in my

manager's office who was just going through scripts found it and then gave it to my manager and then he gave it to my agent and then they sent it to me and uh it was I don't even know if I got the whole script or sides and I'm just having a day wasn't looking for anything I was actually just done with my show I was going to take a year off Wasn't looking for anything. I was actually just done with my show. I was going to take a year off. Not even do stand-up. I was like, I'm done for a while. That'll show you.

Yeah, and then they sent me this script. And I'm like, oh, I know this guy. Okay, I could do this. And it wasn't even, I didn't know you. I don't even think I knew it was Jenji to begin with. I never put it together because I'm shitty at that. So I'm like, I could do this, guys. So I went down to the glasses place. We wanted to know what.

Yeah. Spectacles. Was up with those glasses because they are a good part of what. I immediately decided that I needed aviators. I don't know why. Some sort of aviator glasses. Because I knew they were timeless. And that they would, you know, there was no way I was going to find fashion glasses from

86. I wouldn't even be able to identify them. But I knew aviators never change. And that this guy was going to wear aviator glasses. And then I had Lacoste shirts. And I'm like, again. Did you buy the glasses or did you rent? Did you borrow the glasses?

No, I just borrowed those big ones. Did you rent the glasses? They were sort of like yellowish. That's a big commitment for an audition. It was the shape. No, I know the ladies down there. They do my glasses. Yeah, I love that place.

They do mine too. So, and then I actually own Lacoste shirts. And again, I'm like, these have been the same for decades. So that was that. And then I had the woman who's my trainer, who's an actress, read with me. You wondered who was reading with you. Yeah. I was like, you know, because she goes on auditions and stuff.

And she's cute and good. But usually she's just my trainer. You know, i work out with her and i'm like do you want to read with me and that would at least lend some professionalism to it you sat behind a desk which looks yeah it was in my office i just sat at that table and my and my part-time assistant shot three of them and they decided they sent you one and that was that but they told me that like i didn't know where you were in the casting or whether you had considered other people or you're at your wits end.

But I was told that they're not looking at people. That I could not get in a room. That's what I was told. We were not yet seeing people that we liked enough to see in a room for that. So you were still looking for the room. Well, we should say Jen Houston, who did the casting, is a genius. And she has these instincts that are so kind of out of left field and so kind of. They're so surprising.

I've known Jen since she was a kid. Yeah, she told us. When she worked, yeah. She sent it to us and she was like, watch this now. Mm-hmm. And we were like, whoa, all right, maybe. Yeah. Mark Maron. You can be honest go ahead yeah i was not expecting anything i was like he's funny yeah i don't know if he can act um can he play

another person um or can he be some version of himself that is that person yeah and then we watched it and it was so simple it was just like he's the guy it was like undeniable it was like those things were like shit this is undeniable and then we didn't remember because we because we and then we showed it to the writers too remember because like we had we're like you guys you gotta watch this and then we were like oh and then when we would start to talk about the character we started to talk like you yeah like when we were pitching we're like oh we're already writing it for him we gotta give him the part and then i remember we sent the video to netflix and they said their only question was like can he move around he's behind i'm like well even

if he can't does it matter like well can we write the part so he's always sitting like that's the problem if he's not an integrated performer we'll just sit him down it's totally oh that's the problem. If he's not an integrated performer, we'll just sit him down. It's totally fine. Oh, that's so funny. But it was, and a couple were like, I mean, I feel like that was particularly, because it was, we knew it was going to be such a big part of the show. So to not even have you in a room, we were just like, well, this feels like it's the guy. I had no expectation. I was sort of like, a tape?

All right. There you go. And it just went on with my life. I think we had no expectation when we watched it. And then I will say, it kept happening over the course of the season where I was like I mean he's gonna be great but I mean who knows what

his range is like he's got he's like you are the one he feels super Liz likes me the whole time Liz was on board from the day one you the beauty of you from the beginning was

I was like he will be grounded and a real human no matter what at all no matter what we throw at him he got a great bullshit meter and a beautiful ability to just make anything sound organic and in the moment and true. But then you consistently, consistently surprised us in ways that I feel like we would go back to our seats and be like, that was... Whoa.

Yeah. That scene was so powerful. That wasn't even meant to be so... Yeah, I felt that happening. Powerful. And I think that happening. Like I, and I think that was because. It was exciting. Well, I think you got me at a good time because I just done four seasons of my show.

So like, you know, when I started Marin, I don't, I was not great, but like I knew how to be on set now. Yeah. And I knew, and I knew I wanted to be relaxed and not have it all on my shoulders. So I was able to focus on, you know, just that guy and not worry about other shit, which was kind of tricky. I still needed to sit near Video Village just to. We noticed. He just wants to be closer to Video Village.

But you were also so empathic toward us because you knew what it was like to run a show. So I feel like every time we look like we had the blood drained out of us, you'd be like, how are you guys doing? You all right? You okay? And I was like, oh, it's really nice when somebody asks you. Yeah, yeah. And you're like barely standing.

Yeah, it's rough. It's hard. We had each other. It was hard for me to like, I think that you guys were, everybody was pretty open to things like, you know, suggestions. And it wasn't, didn't seem out of hand. And I liked that there wasn't, like, a fucking improv fest because I really wanted to do the work from the script.

But, you know, certain directors and certain writers. You were perfect for pretty much the entire season. It was great. Well, because, like, the one thing I had in my mind, if I had any insecurity, like, and I think that I can evolve as an actor after talking to Martin Landau in here and getting some acting lessons.

But I know I can be present. And I knew that the answer for me was going to be, if it's not me, it's on the page. So let it be. And there was a couple of bits that worked out. There was a couple of beats that I added. But that was with the writers. And there was conversations around it. And there was one moment where I didn't want to do something. And Nick, I was like, let's there was conversations around it. And there was one moment where, you know, I, I didn't want to do something and Nick,

you know, and I was like, let's just do it this way. And he's like, and it was, it wasn't a fight, but he's like, all right,

okay. And then like, we tried to try to admire when he's like, okay, so now let's do it the way that, that we, I know exactly what's, yeah,

totally. But that took a lot of, that took a lot of trust from you though. Cause like, you don't know who we are. Right. Well, I liked that. I like, like I wasn't that, I wasn't afraid of trust from you, though, because you don't know who we are. Right. Well, I liked that.

I wasn't afraid of it because it wasn't on me. You know what I mean? It was your character in a way. And there was only a couple times where I'm like, and we went over it, where it's just like, I don't know if he's going to say that. It just didn't feel right. And it didn't matter. We fixed it.

Yeah. I think that's a big part of what, I mean, I think playwriting prepares you for TV in a great way. Because you're in that rehearsal room with actors. And you're working like that. And you're trying to work it on the page first before you go off and rewrite something. So you're really trying to figure out if, you know, if it's the scene that needs work, you know, what that work is. And it's a conversation. And, you know, you have to be able to have it faster, I think, with TV.

Right. Because we are in the middle of shooting. Yeah, but that's the exciting thing about it. Yeah. But I didn't assume. It teaches me not to be precious, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

But I didn't assume that, like, the funny, the amazing thing was because of the script and then just because I was emotionally available, you know, and I knew, you know, where that guy was at or the guy I was being. Yeah. That the way the relationships evolved or, happened with the different women was really kind of interesting to me. Because clearly, Allison and I love each other in some weird way. You guys hugged a lot on set. Well, yeah.

But I didn't know. She's so good. It's sort of like, you're just doing this for the show. She, you know, she definitely had my number, you know what I mean, on stage and off.

It was a genuine emotional relationship somehow that we couldn't really admit in a way. Yeah, well, ideally, there's genuine emotion in those scenes and you guys found it

and took it, you know. And i hated it when it didn't happen like it did like if we do a take and i'm like i didn't it wasn't open enough and then like there was all everyone was different the weird the the weirdest one for me i had to sign the nudity thing i'm like when's this gonna happen and then you made me show my butt yep and i had to walk around set with a sock on my dick yep that. I felt like I remember having that conversation with you and you're like, so what? What is it? I was like, so we just want to have a conversation about nudity. And you're like, well, seems only fair, right? It did seem fair. I was like, that's true. It does seem fair. Maybe we should have made you do a little more. I kind of knew

that. I kind of knew that. Yeah, I think the ass was about as far as I could go, though. Yeah, it looks great. My ass looks good? Ass looks good. Oh, good. We definitely used it. I was a little nervous about it. The one thing that in retrospect that I think we should have played more.

You want to do that? Can we do those kind of things? Oh, notes. We're getting notes now? Notes. For season two. I think I should have acknowledged the mess more. Like I think like

the one regret I have about the whole season is that The period blood mess or the emotional mess? No the period blood mess. Yeah okay. Like when she leaves

where I'm at the door there should have been beat where I'm like oh god. Like cause it's a mess. And like I was so involved with sort of like there was

everything was sort of loaded cause my ass was out so the set becomes sort of like there's an ass out you know and like it would have helped you too if we poured fake blood on you I feel like yeah well now that we know you're open to it yeah there's period blood there's always

period blood on this show hey you know it happens you know you're gonna do what you're gonna do yeah it's a very honest scene gotta watch him so alright so what's gonna do we when do we know about another season i don't know i mean i think no we don't know we don't know we'll tell you but they've been very i mean i gotta say like that's the cool thing about i mean i've only ever i've only worked at showtime and netflix yeah the great thing about the way we've gotten to make this show be it like genji support and having you know that as sort of a creative like sounding board and buffer but we have so much freedom there it's pretty astonishing and

genuine enthusiasm which is pretty fun because even when we originally pitched the show sitting in the room was this guy uh ted biazelli yeah who um was from the family programming department heard there was a show being pitched about glowow. He was obsessed with Glow. Got himself in the room. And invited himself to the pitch because he heard it was about Glow. He's like, I have to be in this pitch. And he's our creative contact at Netflix

and he's someone who is so genuinely giddy and he's such a cheerleader, which is rare, I think. And it kind of, it makes the whole process just feel more human. Yeah, I felt the set was really kind of open and good, and there was no weirdness, really, ever. And everybody was very excited.

Now, are you guys, in your head, do you have a second season? In our heads right now? Yeah. We have stuff. Yeah? I mean, we have a... Because so many of the characters are unexplored. Totally.

Really. So many. I mean, we've just scratched the surface on basically everybody. It feels like there's so many characters we want to delve into. There's weird shit about wrestling, weird shit about the 80s. We've got a kind of laundry list of things we want to shove in. Yeah. Do we have the shape of season two yet?

Not yet. I think we're good. Yeah, but that's good. Because that's one thing I learned about doing TV. You always assume these geniuses have all eight seasons mapped out, but you don't. Well, you's good because there's always, that's one thing I learned about doing TV is like, you always assume like these geniuses have like all eight seasons mapped out, but you don't. Well, you don't. But I also think like you'd have to respond to like what happened.

And also, I mean, just cutting the first season was really informative in terms of how the rest, you know, what we wanted from the wrestling and how it shot and how it came together. And, you know, that's a big learning curve. The joy of a writer's room, by the way, also is coming up with the ideas. Right. It's fun. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. It's fun.

But like in your mind, though, do we just pick up right after that first match kind of deal? Like, are we just going back to sort of like that went well. Now let's build from there. No, the time go by thing. That's always weird. Like with my show, I could do it like this is a year later. I mean, we could go either way.

We have some. Yeah. Arguments for both sides. Okay. Well, yeah. Well it like this is a year later. I mean, we could go either way. We have some arguments for both sides. Okay. Well, it was great working with you. All right. Do you feel good about what we've done here? This has been fun. Yeah.

Good. We love you, Mark. We were looking forward to talking to you. I know. It's really an honor. And it's made me like very cool with the dads at school too. They're like, I heard Mark Maron say your name on his podcast. I was like, yeah.

Oh, really? He's like, yeah. We got excited that you knew our last names. Silver Lake dads? Silver Lake dads, really. That makes sense. It's really nice for me. All right, well, here we go.

Thanks for talking. Thanks, Mark. There you go. Our final episode of GLOW-related interviews. And I think that was informative. I hope you writers got a lot out of that. And I hope you people enjoyed the process. Making the sausage.

Dig it. Oh, it's too hot. Too hot to play guitar. Maybe I will, though. I got to put my earplug in. My ears are old. Are yours getting old? Thank you. I gotta go fluff some rice. Boomer lives!

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