WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 828 - Keb' Mo' / Taj Mahal

Episode Date: July 12, 2017

Blues legends Keb' Mo' and Taj Mahal are distinctly different individuals. One grew up in Compton, California, the other grew up in Springfield, Massachusetts. One was raised on Caribbean music, the other got schooled in the Southern Blues. One is quiet and contemplative, the other is an excitable storyteller. But as they tell Marc about their separate journeys, it actually makes sense that they wound up weaving their styles together and collaborating on a new joint project, TajMo. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! store and a cast creative all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fuckadelics what What the fuckadelics? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast WTF. That stands for what the fuck? How's everybody doing? We're coming in at, I don't know how many episodes I've done. 800 and something. And I'm here. I'm here in my garage, sitting amongst the piles, gathering dust.

It's weird when a place, when you sit down and you realize, I've been working in this place for almost a decade, right here in this garage. I've got some time and I've moved some shit around on the deck and I'm going to start taking shit out of here and looking at it. I'm going to take everything out, give it a good once over, and say, garbage or not garbage, it's time.

Blues legends, Taj Mahal and Keb Moe on the show today. Blues legends who did not bring their guitars. But Taj Mahal picks up my old weird guitar, the old K guitar, and plays something for like 30 seconds and I wanted it to continue for an hour. I have no control over these things.

All right? There was a lot of mics. I didn't know how to, you know, two people in here, wasn't sure how I was going to do the music recording. Then they didn't have guitars all right maybe i could ask them to play more but i didn't all right but anyways they're on the show all right so you know that why can't i just have fun there are people that know how to look i know

the the world is on fire uh we don't know what's going to happen from day to day but we know it's not good and that's a that's an undeniable. That is without question. So that's a backdrop to trying to have fun in life. I don't know if I've ever been capable of it. I've talked to you guys about this before. Some people seem to have fun. Maybe they have lower expectations.

I don't know what it is. I can have an okay time. For me, if it doesn't involve eating or having an orgasm, there's a big drop-off. You know, those are fun. And then everything else is like, yeah, it was all right. Yeah, I went on a hike today. It was okay. I didn't eat cake or cum.

But it was nice. It was nice. You know, I didn't think it was the right environment for those things. You know, some things you can't do at the same time. But maybe I'm being a coward. Maybe I'm being a pussy. Maybe next time I take a hike up Runyon Canyon, I should just figure out a way

to have a nice big slab of chocolate cake while I'm jerking off, walking up the hill. Yeah, make it interesting for the yoga ladies and their dumb dogs. Stay away from that, man. That's not your cake. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh, I jammed with some man. That's not your cake. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.

Oh, I jam with some people. That happened. Some of my rock star dreams, some of my jamming, my rock jam dreams are happening. I jammed, and it was good. I jammed with professional musicians, professional drummer, Mark Stepro, professional bass player, Tyler Chester, and professional guitar player, Adam Levy. And we did the thing, you know, I never know what to do with jams. I don't think that, you know, I guess it's just a confidence thing because I don't play with people. I got to get over that because I just listened. I just bought a Paul Kossoff record.

I know a lot of people are like, no shit, Paul Kossoff. Some of you are like, Paul who? What? Paul Kossoff. I just was at a record store and they had a solo album. I forget which one it is. He's got a couple. But he's the guitar player from Free.

Paul Rogers Band before Bad Company. Yeah, that's right.ul caught that paul kassoff died of a heroin overdose i believe at a young age had a nice tone but i bought a record and uh there's an entire side that's one instrumental song 16 minutes just that guy doing his thing with some band now he's a good guitar player uh but like you know i'm not comparing myself to him but he didn't seem to be like this is going on too long and i get that immediately i gotta i just gotta like lean into it man i gotta lose myself in it i gotta lose myself in more shit but anyway so we go do this jam and i'm trying to put together a song list i had that in the back of my head but i didn't really know what these guys wanted to do whether they wanted

to just you know indulge me like hey let's let's make the podcast guy happy for a minute let's let's give him let's let him live his little fantasy so you get in and then you know you do a blues jam and you kind of figure out who everybody is and what they're capable of and obviously i'm the low man on the totem pole, but I can hold my own all right. But then it's sort of like, did you bring any songs you want to work on? Yes, I did. As a matter of fact, I have two I'd like to work on today if we could. I'd like to work on Guilty by Randy Newman, and I would like to work on Jumping at Shadows

by Peter Green. I think that one's a little trickier because I got to figure out how to sing that. But we did work on for an hour or so and arrange a version of Randy Newman's Guilty, which is one of my favorite songs in the world. And they just by chance knew because they play with somebody else, Broke Down Palace by the Grateful Dead, which I've played and sung before. So we did a version of that. And then we did sort of an off the cuff version with none of them knowing the song of I Walk With Jesus by Spaceman 3. And we also sort of dicked around with Mystery Train, though I play everything a lot dirtier than these guys. These guys are tasteful players that know the space, know how to let things breathe, know how to turn it down, know how to change up the tone.

And I'm just like... But then I'm sort of like, oh, look at it. I got this nice guitar and this amp. I can roll. I can switch the volume up. I can make choices. I'm not sure what I want out of it all. I mean, I'm very nervous singing and I got to get my voice in shape. I got to do a little more of that. I think I can do it. I'm not looking to transition, folks. Not into a woman, but into a musician. I'm not looking to do that. I'm not looking to put out a record. But I might do a show where I have a little combo

and I do a few songs, a little comedy, have some other friends do some songs. Just to mark that off the bucket list. Play with other people, perform out, but not as a band. Just do a few songs in context and then maybe once sit in with Conan O'Brien's band. All right. Is that asking too much? Are those doable dreams? I'm going to be on Conan tonight, by the way. All right. I don't know how it went yet because I haven't done it yet. All right. Because I'm doing this early. I'm

taping this earlier. If everything goes as planned and nothing horrible happens i will be on conan tonight that's thursday okay you got it so taj mahal keb mo veterans i would say taj is a a an elder statesman of the blues he's been out there doing records and touring for years keb mo as well but taj is older and i've known about taj a long time and i've known about keb mo for a while but i wasn't completely familiar with all their stuff until i knew they were coming on the show and you know i like blues and these guys are the real deal couldn't uh couldn't pass on the opportunity to talk to taj and keb who are touring right now learn a few things about the blues. Pick their brains a little bit.

And have Taj Mahal pick up a guitar in here and play for about 30 seconds. It was great. It was a great 30 seconds. It was very specific. I was happy to have them. Their collaborative album, Taj Mo, is available now wherever you get music. They'll be back on tour in the U.S. starting next month. Go to Tajmo.com for details.

That's T-A-J-M-O dot com. Dig it. So this is me talking to the blues masters. Taj Mahal and Keb. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode

where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special

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in Rock City at torontorock.com Mo. in rock city at torontorock.com. Mo. Pull that mic in, Taj. Pull it in. We'll get right up on you. Oh, there you are.

There you are. You want the DJs out here. Yeah, why not? A showdown over here on the late night show. Yeah, the late night show right here. We got Kev Moe coming up with... You remember those guys. The whole day. They're serious, man.

Boom Boom, Franigan, and Murray the K. You remember Murray the K? Yeah, man, come on. It's been a. You remember Murray the K? Yeah, man. Come on. It's been a long time. Yeah, all of that, man. Yeah, it's been a long time. How about that?

What's the age difference between you guys? Nine and a half. Yeah. Somewhere nine and a half. So on some level, when you were a kid, he was already going. He was going. Yeah. So there was probably a point where you're like, I know who Taj Mahal is.

I got that first record. Yeah, I found out who Taj Mahal is. He came out and I saw Taj Mahal at school. You did? Yeah. In 69. In 69? When you were in school?

Yeah. He was in high school. Where at? Compton High School. Out here? Yeah. Yep. And were you playing already?

Yeah, I was already playing. What were you playing? I was playing steel drums, guitar, and French horn. Steel drums. How do you choose that for the instrument of choice? Oh, easy. Well, I just moved on the right block in Compton. Right.

Right. And the same thing essentially happened to me with guitar. Yeah, what happened? Well, I mean, you know, we lived around the town in probably like three different, three or four different apartment houses. Yeah. And my father got tired of it. Family was getting bigger.

Where was this? In Massachusetts. Yeah. Massachusetts. And then tragedy. But we moved. And then we moved away from that area to another place to some people who live next door to us, who my parents knew.

And then one year, all of this happened my mother my father passed my mother remarried yeah um my stepfather unbeknownst to me came with a guitar that he put in the hall closet that i never ever saw what kind it was uh like an old harmony yeah it was a harmony fo archtop tobacco sunburst guy you know yeah yeah it was a harmony fo archtop yeah back with sunburst sky you know yeah yeah yeah so maybe harmony or silver right right yeah you know and uh one day in the house i'd you know um discovered it and then next door to me these kids um these people were from north carolina and their farm went down that year and so the youngest two boys was sent up from North Carolina yeah to Springfield Massachusetts to be with

their older brother right and so springtime comes you know we started talking across the fence to one another well what you do well I you know I he said well you know he asked the first question was do you have a wheel I said what you mean by a wheel he said a bicycle yeah I said yeah I got a bicycle he said oh he said good we said you play baseball I said okay I'm okay playing baseball yeah he said well he said do you got a bat or a glove I said I got a bat in the ball he said well I got a glove he said let's you know you know hit me some sometime yeah and then he then he said well he said well i play his guitar

not even guitar but guitar yeah i said well i got a guitar he said well let me see your guitar i ran in the house and brought the guitar and came over to the fence he said wait a minute he said you got a pair of pliers yeah and i said yeah i got some pliers yeah and so i went got the pliers and then come back by the time i got back he had unwound the g-string it was a wound g-string yeah and he took the priors and he pulled that string pulled all that wire off the g-string he said now you see here that secret. He said, and don't tune it up so tight. That's the secret. Taking the wire off the G string?

Yeah, yeah, because it gave you an unwound G, and you could bend it and make it whine. Oh, shit. Yeah, you know. And that was the trick? Same tuning, though. No different tuning. No, tune down maybe a step, a half step, a step lower. And he taught you some tricks?

He just taught me to play know, he just taught me to play the basic good stuff. And then, my neighbors up the street, they were from Clarksdale, Mississippi. Actually, from Stovall. And they were, I could go up there and ask

Ernest Nichols, Ernest, when you get through playing, what you playing? Would you play Boogie Chillin'? He said, all right. He'd get up there and play it, and it would sound just exactly like John Lee Hooker on the record. And Kev, when you started recording on your own,

it was almost like you were doing something historical. Like you were doing, you were honoring a tradition that was pretty specific. Is that true? that's true yeah absolutely yeah

I didn't have time because while he was during his part of his life when he heard Boogie Chillin at a young age I heard Jamaica Farewell

oh right right me too though me too I heard all these you know Calypso and Latin Mongo

Santa Maria yeah me too things like that that's what I was listening to and tryingso and Latin, Mongo, Santa Maria. Yeah, me too. Things like that. That's what I was listening to and trying to play Motown. Right. So blues was like, later on, it was like, when I heard Taj, it was kind of like, that was the awareness came in. Well, that first record, that first Taj Mahal record,

that thing is raw, it kicks ass. I just listened to that again yesterday. Yeah. And it's so wild because the production in the late 60s it was like you know it was all it felt like it was all happening oh it was that way it was that's what that was what it was i mean it was literally this i was with the i was with the rising suns we were all individually signed yeah it was it was you know it was a fiasco because none of us really knew much about the music business. And they got the wrong type of people to represent us.

So it was kind of crazy. We just ultimately, even though we recorded all this music, it just was impossible to try to put anything together. And from the record company side, we had too much variation. We were a bunch of different guys that came from lots of different traditions, and we created the music together. I mean, a year and a half, two years after we did what we did, everybody pretty much got on that same kind of train.

Which was bringing a lot of different stuff together? Right, exactly. Everybody being like a songwriter you know and and that kind of thing but I moved off of that thing with the rising Suns and I was like maybe the only one that was on the record label yeah which label was this Columbia yeah and so I mean I I wanted to do something so I literally called up the president the then president of the record company who was Clive Davis. Yeah.

I left a message for him saying that, you know, I'd like to talk to him about making the record. And he did the business. I did the music. For that visit, the first record. Yep. And although his name appears as the producer, ultimately, he didn't have to produce me in the sense of saying, OK, okay, Tosh, here's a tune for you to do, and here's some other tunes, and what about those two tunes?

He just completely left me alone. You chose all the tunes. I chose everything. And then the other thing that happened in terms of that was that the musicians, I didn't have a band, so I had just gone and heard, I don't know how long before that session i had heard jesse davis yeah playing with a band up in topanga canyon and i just knew this guy could play

yeah he had because because i didn't want somebody was another it was a derivative of the way people played you know yeah i wanted somebody who had their own sound and of the blues right and he had his own sound of the blues own feel but when you start so you started with calypso basically with that kind of music yeah i mean as far as playing live what i was listening what i was listening to was different yeah than what i was what were you playing what was your first gigs doing live stuff like who were you working with the young calatino steel band from compton california that was the first one and you were playing the steel drum on that yes and then you started playing calypso guitar no i never played calypso guitar no my uncle who taught me herman wyatt yeah who

lived up in cupertino at the time yeah i teach me how to play cupertino yeah he started teaching me finger picking on his nylon guitar the first song he taught me was, you know, how to play a Jamaica Farewell finger picking. Right, right. In the key of C. When did you start, you know, working in a studio with guys? My first session was a, I think I was a flop on my first session. It was a steel drum session. Yeah.

And a producer came down and picked me up from Compton. Yeah. And took me at the Gold Star Recording Studios with my steel pan. Yeah. Sad, man. And the Wrecking Crew was in there. Oh, really? I didn't know that.

They was in there playing. It was the Wrecking Crew. Right. And Carole Kay was on the bass in there. Oh, yeah. And I didn't know. At the time, I didn't know it was the Wrecking Crew. Later on, I thought, oh, shit, that was the Wrecking Crew.

What were they doing? You don't know what they were doing? I know. I'm 14 years old. I was like 14. I didn't know what they were doing. I didn 14 years old. I was like 14. I didn't know what they were doing. I didn't even know what I was doing. They needed somebody to play a steel drum, and they had heard it.

There was one down in Compton, and I was the guy that was, I guess I was the best player in the band. Yeah. And I could play the pan. So we got the pan, put it in the car. Yeah. And it was weird because I guess we were playing

because the guy that tuned the drums, he tuned them to like an alto saxophone. So when they said what key it was in, I started playing the key and I was in the wrong key. Oh, no. So you're the kid in the wrong key. But really, my first real recording experience was probably playing with Papa John Creech.

Oh, he played with Jefferson Airplane? Yeah. In 70. Oh, really? In 71. And what were you playing on that record? Guitar. So you moved up, you got out of the drum.

By that time, I'd been in some cover bands and I'd been in high school playing the French horn. A bunch of guys wanted to make a cover band. There was one guitar player I got out of school that had an amp. And so they said, we need another guitar player. So they knew I played a little guitar, so they got me. And I just learned the songs as they went. Right, just the standards, pops, pop hits?

Yeah. Yeah. So I learned, and what I didn't know, the other guy would teach me because he had guitar lessons at the Compton Music Center. Ah, all right. And so, um. And that's how you came to the guitar.

Yeah, I came to the guitar. So I came into the guitar from the steel drum, from through the French horn, through the jazz band, which I played percussion in. You were playing drums too, or just like? Percussion, like congas. Oh, right, okay. Conga. So you're like both, you're both multi-instrumentalists. percussion in you were playing drums too which is pretty like percussion like congas oh right okay conga so you're like both you're both multi-instrumentalists well i just do when in

the steel band there was drums steel bands steel drums bass all the way through cellos uh yeah this is like that other cello bands yeah and so and so i would i learned to play the drums yeah i'm going to play the congas and the bongas and every arrangement they had in there. And then you became a guitar wizard later. I wouldn't call myself a wizard, but I... Yeah, you're kind of a wizard. Yeah, you guys are magicians. Then I started playing guitar with Papa John.

That was an accident because he was on Adams Boulevard down between Crenshaw and La Brea. And there was a little soul food joint called Jet Set Cafe. Yeah. And we would rehearse like two doors down from it. And one day, Papa John Creech and Roger Spots and Miles Grayson were walking down the street on the way to get some soul food, and they heard us rehearsing in this little makeshift

studio on Adams. And they came in, and next thing we know, we was playing on the Filthy Funky record. With Papa John. Papa John. So what was your relationship with some of the guys that you were listening to? I know that early on, I don't remember which album of yours it is where you got a picture of you and Mississippi John Hurt on the cover. Now, were you able to actually learn from those guys one-on-one?

No, I didn't. Mostly with John Hurt was watching him play, because that's how I learned how to play. Right. I'm a tourist. You know, I'm from Missouri. Not really, but I'm from Missouri, and you got to show me. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, it's like

I remember my dad trying to teach me something. He was a math whiz. Yeah. He was trying to deal with me with math, and it was like, okay, you can talk all that stuff out there in fantasy land you want yeah but if you put 12 oranges in front of me and you take away four i know i understand yeah yeah yeah yeah that's how i work yeah so so mississippi john i went every opportunity. He played some little coffee house somewhere to hear him. And then I had his records. I had his records. And then I listened to some.

I was lucky enough every now and then to hear some of his old records. Yeah. So you hear how much they were playing different back at the time. Because by the time we got to him, he was probably like in his 70s. Yeah. I mean, late 60s and 70s and that picture that is on uh um the recycling the blues and other related stuff album yeah is i'm 19 and he's 76 wow so he was your guy you thought that was well no i mean what what i what i what was what was

the real thing was yeah is that as a young black man in the 60s, when everybody was getting pretty violent, and there was, the cities were burning, and basic people, basically people said, draw a line, you either over here, or you over there. And it's like, no, that don't really work. You know, it isn't only two things. This is a big world. Yeah. And there's other things in it. But I needed somebody to, and whose music I could work with, that would focus me and center me. And I figured that if this guy's living in the middle of Mississippi, and he's playing that gentle and that beautiful,

then I'm going to have to learn how to calm down in the midst of chaos and learn how to do this. And so that's why I was just so thrilled to be able to see him because I avoided a lot of crazy stuff. A lot of people got caught up in them 60s and lost their life and incarcerated and had to make some terrible decisions. And I just was focused on the music, focused on the culture of the music, focused on my responsibility as a musician from ancient times. It's like, well, what would I be responsible for if I was a musician?

You know, to keep the culture moving forward, have information. And so I got about the business of that. And you realized that at that age, that this was the journey. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You had to stay in this. It's almost a spiritual journey, too.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The input came in earlier, but the actual practical application came came you know as i started out recording and particularly after the first three records because you know i what was going on in the world was like the british invasion right and nobody was listening to to to the musicians here in the united states to the real guys yeah well not yeah i mean not only the real guys but the younger guys that came after the real guys like myself and others, they weren't listening to us.

Like who would you put in that list? John Hammond. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, Ry Cooder. Yeah, yeah. You know, Segal Swall Blues Band. Yeah.

You know, Blues Project. They just were not giving a damn. They just turned and went like, oh, it's all coming from England. And they didn't listen to us and so after about three records I was like you know what I'm not going to stay in this spot yeah I hear more music I have a bigger cultural you know activity than all of that and so I'm gonna get out there and and turn people on to what else is out here right this is not a monolith yeah Yeah, yeah. I came over on a boat and I picked cotton.

Now I play guitar. No. No. That's a little bit too limiting. Well, and I guess that the reason that the British guys, they just made it. What did they do? Were they make, they made hits out of it?

No, not so much that. They did that too. But it just was that american people it's like anything else your parents will talk to you you don't hear him your uncle talks to you yeah you hear me your aunt talks to you you hear it right it's like it's just the familiarity of it they don't really get it nobody said that you should hear this right right until somebody like ellis came on and they went like oh maybe we Maybe we should hear it. Maybe we should. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, for a long time, a lot of people were very upset about the whole Elvis appropriating black music. Right. But I think it was Richie Abrams was saying one day, he said, yeah, but consider it from this point of view. one day said yeah but consider from this point of view because he did it you know he said everybody that everybody that was around him didn't think that that was the thing for you know young my guy to be doing yeah you know but what he did was open the door for a whole lot of other folks to come through right and and and i mean that's you have to take it from that point of view because if you if you look at it historically, look what happened after that.

Yeah. I mean, America's music went completely over to the other side. Broke it open. Oh, broke it wide open. And some of those British dudes, they were always respectful and inclusive, and they honored their heroes, certainly, right? Right. Yeah, I mean, I listen to that original Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green.

That guy fucking kills me. Yeah. The way he plays guitar. Oh, he's great. Yeah, and mean, I listen to that original Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green. That guy fucking kills me. Yeah. The way he plays guitar. Oh, he's great. Yeah, and then they sat down. They did session stuff with Otis Spann. Sure. Yeah, and they kind of gave it back.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the whole thing. I mean, in the rock and roll circus situation, I mean, it came, we were playing one night at the Whiskey A a go-go I was playing harmonic with my eyes closed I open my eyes and look down the floor there's Mick Jagger dancing this Keith Richards and you know this Brian Jones

dancing over here the animals and answers and I was like whoa yeah right now stage like oh I pray it might have bloody good, blah, blah, blah. And I said, listen, you know what? I don't know what you guys got in the water over there, but it's happening. And I'm hearing from some of my friends that you guys are really doing a lot of different stuff and you're communicating with other people. If you ever have a project that you want us to be involved you know this band right here i said me you know i said you know just give us a did they met three months later eight tickets uh first class on boac

yeah and we never we never reached our hands in a pocket for anything else other than to buy chewing gum, cigarettes, or gifts that you were going to bring back home. Those guys treated us like we were royalty. And you toured. Yeah, we toured over there. All over Europe? A little bit. Just a little bit. But not with them.

We did the rock and roll circus, and that's when Jesse Davis met John Lennon and John fell in love with Jesse's plan. And, you know, a whole lot of different stuff happened from that. It was pretty exciting. It's an amazing time, man. And John Hammond, coming back around to Keb, I saw the weirdest thing. I was in Tucson, Arizona.

And my brother lived there. And the Tucson, Arizona Blues Society in tucson arizona and i and i was uh as my brother lived there and the the tucson arizona blues society was having a night with john hammond right and i'm like what the because i love i love hammond i think he's great so i'm like all right i'm in town i'll go check this out there must have been 30 40 people there and john hammond with a with a national you know dobro and he played you know to the note uh robert johnson's hellhound on my trail yeah and i never like i only heard robert johnson do it and it's a weird song right yeah it's almost like a fragment it doesn't it but like it was like he channeled robert johnson in that moment and i never it's so rare to hear that thing played note to note in real time like it's supposed to sound like. And it was mind-blowing to me.

It was like I understood why he's the window in, why Robert Johnson is the portal in. Right, right. And you seem like on some of your records that there was an actual, like, I think you kind of channeled him, too, on some of those stuff, right? Yes, I did. At that time, I mean, like, given the times where I was, I realized I had to do something different than what I was doing. Which was from the Caribbean? No, from blues.

I had gotten to blues. I had started a journey because I did a record in 1980. Yeah. And then after that, in 83, i got in the blues band called the who done it band yeah and then from there i started to go backwards they were doing like chicago more bb king yeah yeah those things yeah then i started to go back and back and back and then when i stumbled on robert johnson and uh it was the same day i learned heard robert johnson heard big bill broomsie yeah um you haven't said I ain't heard none of this stuff.

Really? How old were you? I was like 39. Yeah. Oh, really? And you hadn't gone there before? I was playing. I just wanted to be a background.

I wasn't trying to be a guy, the main guy. Front man. If I was a front man, it was out of sheer desire. I just wanted somebody to sing my songs when no one was singing. I would sing them. Yeah. Because I wanted to be a songwriter. Right.

So I said, I heard this guy, and the light went on. All of a sudden, that door that was open when Taj Mahal came to high school, there. And all of a sudden, when I heard Big Bill and Robert Johnson, okay, that's what blues was supposed to sound like. Right. Because I've been hearing club blues. Right. Right. The club. You know, going jamming, people come, let's just play some blues. Right, right. okay that's what blues is supposed to sound like because I've been hearing club blues right the club

you know going jamming people come let's just play some blues right but okay let's play that let's play Stormy Money let's play

Shade Street Mechanic let's play this and you play it but it was not with the same reverence and regard that when you heard you know

Mississippi John heard playing or Lance Lipskin yeah when you heard them know Mississippi John heard hurt playing or or Lance man's lips can yeah yeah when you heard them guys yeah no even that's different that's not yeah that's not like that other stuff well yeah that's why you know how right no Hollywood yeah no cliches you know no cliches and the bars might be the bars are were not 16 or 12 or eight it was like could be 19. yeah it could change in the song yeah

yeah i'm gonna know you changed me yeah lightning said lightning used to tell them guys that tried to play he said listen here you changed when lightning changed you just got to follow him yeah yeah when you started to approach that that robert johnson stuff i mean that's it there is no uh precedent for it right it mean, there's no precedent for it, right? There was no, and it changed. In that moment, it was a defining moment where my head changed. Oh, yeah? You see, because it wasn't like all of a sudden somebody's, it was like, no, there was a path from 1983 to 1990.

Yeah. You know, 1991, where this thing was taking place. Then that one, I was ready to really hear that. Yeah. It was played. And also, too, you know, I got into it. And then right after that, I got involved in theater. Yeah.

You know, when I met Chick Streetman, who ultimately introduced me to Taj Mahal. Who's that guy? Chick Streetman. Yeah. Very interesting character. Whatal. Who's that guy? Chick Streetman. Yeah. Very interesting character. What's he do? Guitar player. Guitar player.

Songwriter. He co-wrote All Around the World. He's on the record there. Okay. So he introduced me to Taj. So all this happened in the same two-year period. And because in theater, what's great about that is you know i was i was in this this uh play called rabbit foot at the la theater center you were acting yeah no i was i was a musician in the

play i was acting but in that i got a call from shabaka henley who's an actor named shabaka henley yeah and he said i need a guitar player to play this role in this rabbit foot and and a guy named quentin dinard recommend you he said you was a guy yeah yeah but I wasn't a guy no you wasn't but he thought I was a guy so I said let me check my schedule yeah and ask him a few questions like okay I sold out so what is this starting how long the rehearsal are we rehearsed for four weeks bingo yeah I got four weeks yeah yeah so you took it I took it I went down to McCabe's in Santa Monica yeah and met a guy named Fran banish and he started like school to me and put me together meanwhile I was handed this cassette of

about 20 songs that were like from all for that never heard before from who familiar from the money waters to like people I can't even just a peaty weak straw yeah all yeah yeah that I had to listen to so this was like a divine kind of thing that happened to me that was orchestrated from the universe in my opinion

this theater gig and then all of a sudden you're handed the history that you needed and four weeks to study it it was the Rosetta Stone of the blues it was all there oh wait that's not all yeah right after that yeah i hadn't really met chick yet yeah you know right after that um i go they need an understudy for spunk which is george wolf you know yeah the director george wolf yeah i talked to him mark taper yeah so he was he he was

the director i had to go audition for him yeah and he said nah he's not i was just coming he's like i don't know but this is all going on behind my you know not in the presence of me and yeah chick was the role he said no i think you ought to hire this guy because he's going to learn it yeah he'll do it yeah for some reason chick reason, Chick, without knowing me, backed me up. Yeah. And so they gave me the gig. And what was the role exactly? It was guitar man.

Oh, yeah? Spunk. Now, I got another, about another seven weeks with pay. Yeah. To understudy, more music, more studying. Plus, I'm working under a guy named George Wolfe. Yeah, he's a great genius. All of his notes, when he's giving notes to all the actors

and notes to while they're doing it, everything that he's doing, and the background on archetypes and things and the characters. It's like all of a sudden now this thing got really big. So all of a sudden I had a master course in a period of about four months that was amazing on basically what took you to the beginning of it yeah and then once I came out of that then that's who you met yeah the day when chick took me down to meet John Porter yeah yeah we were in the studio recording dance in the blues Richard Perry's old studio yeah Yeah, yeah, that they originally recorded,

Bing Crosby recorded White Christmas in that studio. Yeah. Remember, you know, you were saying something about that Robert Johnson

tune, Hell on my Trail. Yeah, yeah. You know what that is? No. And this is very interesting, is that it's clear

and obvious he had listened to Skip James because that tune is Skip James. Oh, that sounds right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, oh yeah. Right there.

It's all in those. It sounds like Skip James. But he plays it a lot faster. Skip is from Bentonia. Yeah. Bentonia, Mississippi, around that area. And they have a whole other,

they got what I call the Mondingalope in their music. Yeah. do well this guitar happening here this one is which one I say what I'm talking about the series mom didn't go nope no which is like this Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, that's the Wow. That's the Montaingalo. Oh, that's it.

Yeah. And that represents people who walk, they have donkeys, they have camels, goats, chickens, and that's how they move around.

Carts. And so that movement is in the way they play the music plus when they like go a long distance over anywhere yeah and they're going you got to have a song that you can play all day long right and not get tired and that's where that keeps cycling itself around you know if he it where it like some blues, when it gets into being patterned, I remember little brother Montgomery was saying, he said, well, you know how it is. Some of these fellows, they play that pattern blues. In other words, everything's patterned and cliched.

He said, they're not really writing a song. And this guy, he's famous for a tune called the Vicksburg Blues, Everything's patterned and cliched. He said, they're not really writing a song. And this guy, he's famous for a tune called the Vicksburg Blues, or 44. Yeah. The Vicksburg Blues is one of the classic pieces of music. If I ever get the opportunity, I want to have John Cleary play it on piano and have a symphony orchestra playing behind it. And I want to walk out in a swallowtail, you know, tuxedo, and sing that song. And, you know, I mean, because it's just,

it's fabulous the way he laid it out, because he really wrote to, it's a written piece of music. You know, it's just like what Scott Joplin did with Ragtime is what little brother Montgomery did with blues Right and and another thing is because he's raised a Creole from New Orleans Right the blues came down the river from Mississippi right into that environment. That's why it's all it's a flavor Even when they take it as a blues, it still is different It's more melodic. Right. You know?

Because a blues is like, you can get the whole plate. Yeah. You know, like Big Bill Brunzi or Big Joe Williams, nine string Big Joe Williams. You know, it's like the blues. Yeah. And then you go somewhere else where it's like a flavor. You know, or a side dish. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can hear it in there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Basie. You can hear the blues in Basie. Of course, yeah. You can hear it in there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Basie. You can hear the blues in Basie. Of course, yeah. Down Basie. I've been listening to,

who am I listening to? Lee Morgan, the Jazz Messengers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blues all up in there. All blues. All up in there. Well, that stuff

that you were just playing, you tracked that down. Like, you know, you hit that moment with Robert Johnson, but you went further back, right? Well, it tracked me down. It tracked that down. Like, you know, you hit that moment with Robert Johnson, but you went further back, right? Well, it tracked me down.

It tracked me down. I mean, there's the world, the modern world that we know. Yeah. And if you go back far enough, you know, the sunrise is on the ancient world, which is still out there. Sure. People are still connected to that. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like it's very easy on this side of that you know uh that semi-permeable membrane to think that this is it right right no no no no no yeah you're on the wrong you in the wrong taxi

but where does that come where does that groove that you just where is that senegal? Where does that come from? Okay. It's the Songhai Empire. Yeah. A group. Mauritania, Senegal, Gambia. Yeah. Guinea-Bissau, Guinea-Conakry, Mali, Burkina Faso, and Niger. Yeah. That whole area right there.

Right. And that's where it all came up to here. Yeah. Involuntarily. Yeah, involuntarily yeah right but it came in in banjo you know it's from that same area too and and when did you uh did you go down there and spend time down there oh yeah i always spent time there yeah but but you know i mean it was like it's it's like a connection that you just have to constantly be a part of and once once you hear that all this

other stuff hooks up to it you know my point was to be like to know like the the 500 years of music that developed yeah after africans were brought into the western world yeah okay so that in the possibility or be 350 years that one day i ever actually hook up with them cats i have something to say right you know what i'm saying yeah and it's like because some people have developed their music so modernly that they can't communicate that anymore just hearing you play that one riff for two minutes i'm like it to me it's like uh it's like time travel exactly exactly yeah you hit it right on the head it's transcendent what do you think about like you know how things were produced back when when you were when you were starting out because like it was kind of stunning to me when i listened to the first record that it sounded like a chess record

almost so i can say you know and now i it seems that things have gotten so complicated that's hard to get back to that raw shit no no no no you go through listen to my records you hear oh no yeah I know stay well yeah no but what the whole point of it is is that everybody was playing those records from almost up probably until the third record yeah we hardly had any overdubs right that was like I'm playing harp they're playing the band's playing we you know we decided how the record's gonna go the tune's gonna go yeah and what everybody's gonna play it's like when that record opens up with leaving trunk yeah i walked up to the bass player and the two people i didn't tell anything about what to play was um jesse dave

yeah jesse davis and ry cuda They didn't need to hear anything. They played by instinct. That was what was so great about Rye. Rye had some of the best instincts of any of the young players at the time. And you only had a certain amount of time in the studio, I bet. Well, we were good.

I'm not somebody who likes to rehearse in the studio. Yeah. So I knew that I needed to really have this thing made. I think we made that album for like 16 grand or something like that back then. You know, and so what I did was I walked into the bass player and I said, look, here's what I want you to do. I want you to go. I'm going to go I'm gonna come on and once I got them saying

I said and now say that all the way through the whole record and put yourself in there where you want and then they said well how are we gonna

open it up I said okay here's how to open it and I put that bebop lick on the front right we're off dance is going you know yeah yeah now throw the lyrics on there and that was it

because that's what i was supposed to be doing. Taking the old music and bringing it into my time. And that's the whole journey right there. Yeah, right there. Now both of you guys are like, let's talk about certain songs because there are certain songs that you've recorded two or three times. I think, like, what, further on

down the road maybe? Yeah. Oh, Come On In My Kitchen, right? What is it about that tune you know because that's one of those tunes that like you know you've both recorded it right yeah but you always hear more yeah is that it yeah yeah yeah whatever your lesson is at the time that you learn you know you because you you can go in and you can like completely play exactly the way you hear it yeah okay and you're happy with that for a while. Then after a while, you're not so happy with that.

You know, and then something, but you're not aware that something's marinating in you. And then one day, all of a sudden you hear it and you've got to record a different version of it. Yeah, because sometimes fresh ideas can rot like food. Yeah. Yeah, because sometimes fresh ideas can rot like food. Yeah.

I feel like the danger of having familiar music or some of what people call hits. Yeah. You know, I've never had a hit. Right. I kind of like it like that. I mean, I wouldn't turn one down, but I kind of like the fact that I don't have one. Yeah. There's a certain freedom that involves it. Well, you don't have to follow it up.

Yeah. Well, not like that. don't have one. There's a certain freedom that involves it. You don't have to follow it up. Yeah, but even though there's certain songs that you have to play for your audience, and then like last year, there's a couple of songs that I played that always work that I was playing and it got to about two weeks before the end of the tour, it's like, that got to go. Not because I was, my tiredness, my fatigue, the idea was beginning to show in my performance. Right, you felt it.

You know what I mean? You were faking it. Then when I began to see hints of it with the audience, I had to just cut it loose because it's like, but, you know, so. But then if that's a big hit, you start to get that feeling. You can never stop playing.

That's when the needle comes in. Right. That's when the pills start coming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because it's like now you're eating, now you're delivering rotten ideas. Right. You're a parody of yourself.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah. A cover band of yourself. Yeah, yeah, a cover band of you. Yeah, yeah, you don't want that. And you start feeling that and it's just really Well, shit. So, Come In My Kitchen, you're talking about that song, sometimes it just takes going

back and listening to the original. And so why do I like that song so much? Even a song that you do yeah that you got sick of yeah go back and listen to it like why do they like that

yeah you know oh yeah and if you can't find it you gotta cut it loose that's why Barbra Streisand doesn't sing people anymore yeah

but like there's something about those songs or there's something about like you know Love in Vain Come On in My Kitchen and like for me,

for years, and again, I'm not a professional musician, but I thought that in order to be a real blues guy, you've got to figure out

how to do Rollin' and Tumblin'. You've got to figure out how to play that song. Well, there's a lot of different ways to play it. I know,

that's just the thing. That's the point. You've got to figure out how to make that one your own. Yes, right. Well, all of them. All those songs. Well, there's a lot of different ways to play it. I know, that's just the thing. That's the point. You've got to figure out how to make that one your own. That's right. Well, all of them, all those songs. You have to make all the songs your own. Figuring out why that works and then figuring out what works for you on it

because you can't copy those guys. Right. If you do that, that's all you're doing. You're just copying. Well, yeah, but see, some places, I'll tell you who's really, was it Jackie McLean? us, Jackie McLean. Jackie McLean was an alto player.

And everybody used to say, but he sounds just like Bird. And Jackie said, yeah, that's because I really just wanted to sound like Bird. I didn't care about nobody else. He wasn't trying to sound like nobody else. But the whole point was that the majority of people that we grew up listening to there was such a variety of musicians that had their own signature i mean it's like you know cat comes out he ain't played two notes and i know who it is now the the newer crowd of people the music that they are listening to yeah they may they may play and i don't wood egg that is yeah but cuz it's just not it doesn't have any kind of personality it's like the bar band blues

like you know like they're there you know like the weird thing about the blues is that they're beautiful and that anyone can kind of play them but to make them your own that's a whole different thing and that that's the whole difference right because you like you were saying you're just playing and geek cover bands are just these bands are just playing these blues, Bobby Bland, whatever it is. It's like a pretty good band could get through all that shit. But to really make it your own, it's that one thing you can't describe, right? Right.

Well, a lot of it is that I think that people don't recognize that these bands came out of the same area and basically had the same kind of nomenclature and language which which moved itself over To the music that they were playing. Yeah, and so they actually are having a Conversation inside of the music that within the band within the band Yeah, and see this is what doesn't happen with a lot of guys who you come in and go like, you know We want to play some blues. Yeah, you know, we want to play some blues. Yeah, yeah. You know, they don't understand. That's a conversation that you have to relax and come from totally deep within. Right, and now there's a few steps removed generationally

who they're listening to. Like, you know, because like it took me, you know, I was old already. I was in my 40s before I really understood that, you know, the Hubert Sumlin, Alan Wolfe thing. And it's like, what? You know, because I know Jimmy Vivino, because I do Conan O'Brien sometimes.

Oh, yeah. And Jimmy did that last album with Hubert, one of the last ones. Yeah, yeah. And just to hear what he was doing on guitar and to really isolate it and realize that the two of them and the rest of them, but like, that conversation that you're talking about,

you can't, there's nothing, it's it's singular it's all there's no one else gonna do that yeah and you did you know hubert you guys sure yeah i should i should do the wolf part for hubert oh you did oh yeah yeah yeah we played along he was playing at the long beach uh uh blues festival they called me up say listen you know we got hubert here and he sounds good but he just don't sound like Si. I said, well, okay. I said, I'll do my best wolf impressions for you. And Hubert, boy, Hubert lit up like a tree.

Yeah. Yeah, because that was the combination. Shape for me? That was the dynamic. Oh, yeah. It had to go back and forth. And also, Wolf stopped Hubert from playing with a pick. Oh, he told him

on purpose? No, he said, man, don't play with a pick because Hubert was decided that he was going to try to play with a pick. Wolf said, play with your natural fingers.

With your natural fingers. And I mean, the stuff that Hubert played, going down slow. Listen to the guitar on that. It's crazy, right? I mean, oh, one of some of the best solos I ever heard would play. It's crazy. Going down slow. Listen to the guitar on that. It's crazy, right? One of some of the best solos I ever heard anybody play.

Right. Yeah, and he lived a long time, huh? Oh, yeah, yeah. So what made this album happen? The new one. The one that you guys did. The one that you're out doing. Well, what made it happen? It happened. It started happening years and years and years ago. Yeah? Yeah. did the one that we're gonna that you're out doing well um what made it happen because it

happened it started happening years and years ago yeah yeah how so well it's like you know there's the result of everything i did everything he did yeah everything all the people that before us did yeah yeah everything before them yeah yeah yeah all the people that they were born yeah oh yeah related to the history of the whole thing yeah the guy that happened to be playing steel drums on my block the guy that the guitar happened to be in his closet yeah yeah yeah and then one day and then and all the conversations i heard taj yeah you know talk about when when uh um he wasn't didn't know I was listening. Yeah. I'm glad somebody was listening.

Listening, you know, things like ancestral things that happen, like about when you're working on those work songs, working on the Delta, songs that you can work all day and not get tired. It's like being a musician. You can play all day and not get tired. Right. You know, it's like, you know, like being a musician, like you can play all day and not know you worked. Right, right. Right. That's the best day.

That's the best day, right? Yeah, you know, you're doing something you love. You work all day. You don't know you're working. Yeah, yeah. You don't know. That's right. So this was just a destiny almost.

It's just kind of, I can't even, I can't even answer. So basically, I can't even answer that question. Right. The short answer is we were in Atlanta, Georgia, at the Greg Allman tribute, May He Rest in Peace. Yeah, May He Rest in Peace. Yeah. And we were at the bar at the hotel.

And I said, what do you think about us doing a record together? And there wasn't one answer was yes, whether he was serious or not. Yeah. My answer was yes. Yeah. You know what I mean? But he was serious. Yeah. And I knew it was going to happen though see because i mean you know you can tell when people like be you know from fluffing past your ears you know blowing smoke up your skirt yeah you know no no this is going to

happen and to me it's like i in my life i just have i can't just stay at the same place gigging on the road you know you got that's why I'm always doing different stuff because I see there's more information out there and I figure that what would happen between us working would be

great for both of us as individuals and what we would put together would be something that everybody would probably in their wireless fantasy were fantasizing that. Oh, what happened if those two guys got this?

And it was a great departure for me because I was getting a little sick of myself. I wanted to be quite frank. Yeah, make two of us. You were starting to drop into that almost a needle. Almost a needle.

Oh, no. That's always when you, you know, like you finish your year out and the next year, I don't even want to go out next needle. Almost a needle. Oh, no. It's always when you finish your year out, and the next year, I don't even want to go out next year. I don't even want to go. Right, right. You don't want to do the work. What am I doing? Yeah, what am I doing?

What the heck am I doing? And also, because we're in the set, we do actually a lot of songs from the record, which is a big no-no when you have a back catalog. People want to hear this and that. Fuck them. But you said it. I didn't. Well, no. When you have a back catalog, people want to hear this and that. Fuck them. You said it.

I didn't. Well, no. Thank you for saying that for us. We don't ever have to say that. You can't say that. And it's a loving fuck them. You know what I mean? No, no.

It's a loving fuck them. Well, you don't want to. But I didn't mean to be dramatic about that. No, we understand. Yeah, because you don't want to be a... They won't grow if you don't do that. Right. But they get so locked into that stuff. And when you go, we're going to do a couple of new ones,

they're like, no, let's go to the bathroom. And you're like, no, no, no, no. This is where we're going. But don't tell them. Don't tell them what you're going to do. Yeah, don't tell them. Just keep it coming. And all of a sudden, they get comfortable.

Because, I mean, night after night, for me, I'm always going to play new tunes that they never heard. Right. I mean, the challenge is to get up in front of a bunch of people who never heard you and make some music that they get with. And a lot of it is you relaxing and getting on your game. Right. And you get on your, because I mean, I can go somewhere where I never heard a musician before and if the cat is playing,

I'm transfixed. Oh yeah, absolutely. You know? That's the best thing that can happen. I went to, I just went to Lincoln Center for the second time in my life, just on a whim to see

Wynton Marsalis and the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra and they're doing monk tunes. Oh yeah. Big arrangements. I can't remember his name. He was a Pakistani flautist on a wooden flute playing monk and i was like i don't i don't even understand what's happening but i'm in yeah exactly exactly and that guy from brazil playing

a bandolin yeah like like django reinhardt yeah i don't i don't need to know anything right but what's happening right now. That's right. And that's what you want that connection to the audience to be. And when you go back and you listen, say, to the recordings from, I mean, before this loss, but I mean the popular recordings of jazz and popular jazz from the late 50s, middle of the 40s on up to maybe almost the end of the 60s. Man, there was so many creative people.

A lot. I mean, it's like, in a way, it's a shame that they only got recorded and are sitting in vaults someplace, but I'm really glad it got recorded. It's out there somewhere. I mean, it really is. It really is. The output for people in the intellectual property,

creativity is phenomenal. There's so much now. And there's enough that they keep... And people used to listen, man. Oh, yeah. It was all over the place. Yeah, I mean... It's amazing that that's what music used to be.

You go to a dance and there'd be 20 guys on the bandstand. You know, like that was the place. Yeah, I mean. It's amazing that that's what music used to be. You'd go to a dance and there'd be 20 guys on the bandstand. Right. You know, like that was the band. Yeah, right. Or you'd have a band and they'd run 20 people through the band. Right, right. Everybody had two or three songs. And we had time to listen.

Right. Yeah. We still have it. We just don't think we have it. Yeah. We're trying to keep up with other. We've been sidetracked. Big time.

We've been bamboozled. Yes, we have. We to keep up with other. We've been sidetracked. Big time. We've been bamboozled. Yes, we have. We've been bushwhacked. We've been snockered. We've been snowjacked. We can keep on going. But you knew this ship was going to Shanghai when you got on it. Well, it seemed like the record, when I listened to it,

like it makes total sense knowing more about you and knowing what you're into, that you both have this range of experience with different musical styles that they're all just going to weave in and out. You know what I mean? People have that. They just don't know it.

Well, that's what your job is. Yeah, exactly. They just don't know it. It's just that most people have been exposed primarily to, you know, Popular music. Popular music. Yeah. I mean, I came to popular music long after what I've heard.

You know, gospel music from my mother from the South. Yeah. Caribbean music from my father from the Caribbean. You know. That's really funny. The same thing, though. But a different way. Caribbean.

Yeah, the gospel is Caribbean. Caribbean yeah from your family yeah and my Caribbean experience came from down the street yeah sure but it sure I believe every son you go to church yeah I was yeah yeah sure we got off easy yeah yeah every night. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They were making sure they knew where you were. They went on two things over after midnight up in there. No, I'm serious, man. It's like, it's just so exciting. And people could have so much more expansive experience, you know, if they could just get to hear what's out there and, you know,

not, you know, pull the blanket over the top of their head and look at their, you know, their cell phone, their listening device. I mean, that's it. And it's all out there. That's the weird thing because I just started, like I grew up like that. I mean, I was turned on to blues and and turned on to you know experimental music i had people in my life

that say like the guy at the record store right gives you the thing right what is this and you bring it home like where does this even exist you know yeah and you get that experience what the beautiful thing about music is that there's no late to the party no because the party's always going on that's right and you can just go find it. And there's never a shortage. Like you were saying before, like, what the fuck is this? And it's like all new. Don't matter how old it is.

I just bought three Dizzy Gillespie albums. I never listened to a Dizzy Gillespie album until last week. Really? Yeah. Yeah, he grew up like three and a half miles from where my mother grew up in South Carolina. Oh, yeah? Yeah. His Aunt Thelma delivered my Uncle Elmo.

I was just out on tour with the Hendrix Experience. Oh, with Zappa? With Dweezil? Dweezil turned me on to all his dad stuff. That's a whole other world. A whole other thing. Zappa, the whole Zappa thing. It's crazy.

He told me the story about his dad, how he got into music. He taught himself everything, how to orchestrate, how to play. This is by going to the library. Yeah. He told me the story about his dad, how he got into music. He taught himself everything, how to orchestrate, how to play. This is by going to the library. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's Zappa World. I remember when those kids were born, man. Yeah?

Were you over at the house? Well, yeah. I used to hang out with Medusa back in those days. Right, right. From the GTO. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From the GTO. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So when did you come to L.A. the first time? 65, I came to L.A. and stayed. I never went. And from 65? 65 on, I've been out on the West Coast or somewhere out here. So you knew all those guys. All those characters. Running around Laurel Canyon, all the craziness.

That's when it started on. I mean, I used to be the bouncer at the Ash Grove. Where's that? You know where the improv is? Yeah, yeah. On Melrose. 81-62 Melrose Avenue. That used to be the bouncer at the Ash Grove. Where's that? You know where the improv is? Yeah, yeah. On Melrose. 81-62 Melrose Avenue. That used to be the Ash Grove.

That was the hippest club in the United States of America. What was there? They played nothing but Mississippi John Hurt, Booker White, Lightning Hopkins, Clifton Chenier. And you were the door guy? I was the doorman. And then 65? 65.

65. And then the Rising Sun started. And so I was only the door guy sometimes. Yeah. Because sometimes I was on stage. So you were taking all that in. Hey, man. When those guys would be playing, Joseph Spence. I mean, you name them when they played there.

The real stuff was there all the time. So that was it. That was the mind-blowing experience, right? Oh, yeah. You're just there. You can find them. Back east, it was like the Newport Prok Festival. Right.

The Club 47 in Cambridge. All that stuff down in New York. And the cafes. Bitter End and stuff. Bitter End, yeah, yeah. And, you know, Gertie's Folk City, all that New York stuff, you know, Cafe Wa. And then there was, you know,

the Philadelphia Folk Festival is the second threat. There was the Turks Head in Boston. There was, you know, there was a lot of folk clubs. And these guys, when they were coming to the area, they were, you know... Yeah, Sonny Terry, Brian McGee. Oh, yeah, lots. Yeah, they were all part of that folk scene yeah but you but i imagine that your time there in the mid 60s just being there and working there and seeing all that every night that must have

just like opened it up oh yeah well well yeah you you got an idea that this wasn't just some um you know some somebody's thesis that was gathering dust in the back of a university. Right, right. It was living music. This was the living, breathing people. Plus, they didn't come there and play one night. They came and hung out for the week or two or three nights.

So you got a chance to relax into what it was that they were playing, and so did they, you know? I saw Big Mama Thornton and Jonathan Swifts in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Oh, yeah, I know Jonathan. you got a chance to relax into what it was that they were playing and so did they you know i saw a big mama thornton and jonathan swifts in cambridge man oh yeah i know john you probably there right downstairs right yeah that became a comedy club too weird oh really yeah that was the place i knew what happened to jonathan swiss uh robert cray was opening for me and i remember everybody was talking about rabbit great rabbit great rabbit great rabbit great rabbit great I'm on, Robert Gray, Robert Gray, Robert Gray, Robert Gray.

Have you seen Robert Gray? Robert Gray, Robert Gray, Robert Gray, Robert Gray, Robert Gray, Robert Gray. So I finally got to hear the record. It was a strong Persuader. Yeah. And I said, yeah, the guy's playing. Yeah. More of a soul blues sound.

Right. You know. Stratocaster, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Straight up. Yeah, yeah. So then he opened for me playing. I was playing solo. And he opened for me playing. The band got playing up on the stage. I said, hello, yeah. So then he opened for me playing. I was playing solo. And he opened for me playing.

The band got playing up on the stage. I said hello to them. The band got playing on stage. And about the middle of the set, I came out of the back room. And I stood there and I looked up at him. And I didn't know what made him as nervous as it did. Yeah. But anyway, after the set, he came in.

He said, wow, man, why did you come out in the middle of the set and look at me like that? And I said, because my work is done. And he got it.

He got it. I used to tease him because I used to tease Otis Quaid because I said, Otis Quaid, I said, you sure you ain't Robert Gray's daddy? Otis said, not like that. He sure you ain't Robert Gray's daddy.

You know back, like five nights back then, I remember in my neighborhood down in the Poe region room, all those clubs. Yeah, Poe region room, yeah. Down there where, in Ashgrove, cause I lived around the corner from Ashgrove in 71. It was still going, the last days of it. Yeah.

And I went in there a couple times just to check and see what was going on. Yeah. And, but before the onset of high ticket prices and things like that, you had to come, you'd play a week. Yeah. McCormick or Cray would be down there for a week. Sure. Jimmy Smith would come down there, he'd play for a week. Yeah.

Oh, because to make it worth the trip, you got to play a week. Jimmy Smith would come down there. He'd play for a week. Yeah. Oh, because to make it worth the trip, you got to play a week. I was down to the apartment on the Honeycomb, and the Dell Finals would come, and they'd play a week. Wow. Yeah, and you'd get to hear them. You'd hear that beautiful music every night. Yeah, but to get enough people in there to keep them in the room. Yeah, and then people would probably see them two or three times, just keep coming back.

This is a weird question, i like you know i how do you not because like a lot of blues i guess i just gotta yeah i'm looking for a guitar lesson now but i mean i can do the i'm pretty good with the pentatonics and the licks and the riffs but like how do you like get to the next place i want to what place you're talking about well like how do i do what you just did for two seconds believe me i can't you know what i did is i deconstructed skip james's uh one of skip james's tunes and instead because he played in open d minor. Oh, there you go. Okay. Yeah. Which is the same thing that, yeah, I saw him there too, Albert Collins. Yeah. Albert Collins on a Telecaster cables up five or seven.

Yeah. And plays in open D minor. Really? Yes. Yeah. When it's open down here. It's open D minor. Well, what I did is, like I'm saying, it's all about listening to the music.

Yeah. There's still actually one thing that Robert Junior Lockwood does that he learned from Robert Johnson that every once in a while it sneaks out. But you notice how when he's playing that the high string is always ringing? Yeah, yeah. And there's a certain kind of way you got you got to be conscious of plan plan that way but what I did was deconstruct skip James into standard tuning okay and just figure out where the strings are are just ethically vibrating we want right. All that older music is all about sympathetic vibration.

Right, right. I mean, it's serious. Yeah. And they got no friends. Right, right. That's what's killing me. I mean, perfectly in tune and no friends. That's tricky.

Okay. And you had a little, like, you have some, like, there's, even on this record, there's a lead on one of the songs that seems to, it feels like blues, but then you do these little calypso flourishes almost i don't know what they are but they i don't know well that's that's just in you and i don't know what i'm asking you but the thing about is for me when i when i look at a touch my detox my whole life any person who's been in the game as long as he's been in the game. Yeah.

And all of a sudden, I wake up to it at 40. I can't catch him. Right. Or any person. There's no way I'm going to catch him. Right, right. But I can't catch Chuck Berry. You can now.

No, no, no, no. Can't catch me, man. But like, you know, you gotta go like, okay, who am I in this moment? Right. Right. Who am I in this moment? And what do I, what do I need to do right now? Yeah.

Right. To get to where I need to go. So I picked a few guys. I picked Robert Johnson, Robert Johnson, Tampa Red, and Big Ben Bruisey, Muddy Waters. Those are the guys. I just went in on them guys. Oh, okay. Because I figured, and it was kind of like, if I could figure out

the commonality between those four guys, what they were doing and why it sounded like that. And, you know, plus having played a lot of, I had a lot of singers. I played a lot of singers.

Yeah. Which ones make the girls go crazy and which ones don't. Right. That's very important in music. Yeah. But you know what's interesting? you just said well whitaker was the only one that i think was out of the delta robert was in the delta money was in the delta and big bill brunzi was like just across the

river from the delta in arkansas but hudson whitaker was from Florida. Huh. And that lady's name was Temple. Temple. Temple. Temple. But where did he end up? Where? Chicago.

Right. Yep. That Chuck Berry thing, too. I was going to say, I'm going to never catch up with Chuck. But what you're saying, you take the sounds

and you integrate them into your own thing, you know? But that Chuck Berry bounce, I don't know how he does it. Oh, it's perfect. It's amazing. It's perfect.

It's amazing. It's perfect. It's perfect. It was perfect back then. It's perfect now. In fact, I got a chance to do one of his tunes recently on a John Lennon tribute. Yeah. And I was so thrilled.

Which one? I did Sweet Little Sixteen. Oh, yeah. The band played perfect, man. Because, you know, I mean, it's funny. Really, if you go back and see, what you got to see is him doing it on bandstand. Because he says, all over St. Louis.

He takes the pick. All over St. Louis. Yeah, yeah. Just that move. Yeah. Man, Chuck had every single move where it was supposed to be. I just can't I never understood

how complex it was really but it is play it play it like he's playing it yeah cause I don't think he I don't think he picks up

I think a lot of it's all down downstroke right right and it makes a big difference downstroke's like that and then with the drum shuffling right

right you know and you think because his guitars are going like that cause most bands no right right you know and you think because his guitars are going like that because most bands no so johnny you're gonna go right right and they gotta swing a little yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah a whole bunch of them different guys played drums on that and what's

really funny how willie dixon played bass on so much stuff on on but non-chuck stuff chuck stuff oh really yeah i didn't know that yeah yeah and yeah. But then, for me, it's all good. But, man, when he had that electric bass on Nadine, I was done. Yeah. Nadine. Yeah. Nadine. And also, too, the moon glows on.

Whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa. Yeah, yeah. I'm almost grown. Whoa, whoa. You know I'm doing all right in school? Wow. I'm ready to go. Yeah, whoa. I'm almost grown. You know I'm doing all right in school. Wow. I'm ready to go.

Yeah, yeah. Did you see that movie with him and Keith? Oh, yeah. That was crazy. Oh, yeah. When Chuck is just schooling Keith Richards. Oh, yeah. Well, no, but see, the trouble was that Keith made a terrible mistake. The mistake he made was that Chuck wasn't in the dressing room.

Yeah. And Keith wouldn't know where to put his hands on Chuck's guitar. And that was it. Cluck. He turned around. Chuck clocked him right in there. Clock. You know what I'm saying?

And you know what? Keith was a big enough man to say, hey, I deserved it. He said, I should have known better to put my hands on it. Some people don't like you touching their guitar. No. I touched one of my favorite guitar players, probably my favorite guitar player, David T. Walker. Oh yeah.

And like I touched his guitar one time and he kind of said, well you know, I kind of really don't like people touching my guitar that much. That's better than a punch. It was kind of like a, it was very friendly like. Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. Battlesnake. I went. Okay.

Yes sir. Yes sir. What do you, do you let people touch your guitar? I don't like to. Yeah. I'm like, you can ask me if I think I want to. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.

Some people just go grab a guitar, other people don't. No, you know, there's certain things Some people just go grab a guitar. Other people don't. No, you don't. There's certain things you just don't do. It's funny because I've had a few musicians come over, and I had this. I don't know if it was this one. Maybe this one. I had a 335 in the living room once.

And I always feel better if someone comes in and grabs it. Like James Taylor came over and right away didn't even talk. Just went over to the living room, started playing. And I'm like, great. This is going to be good. There's just so many people like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah they just everybody there's one i gotta touch it now he didn't think that i was freaking out some people rent guitars they don't they don't even they don't get attached to them they go but they get ripped yeah we just rent some guitars when we get there yeah yeah and then i guess some people are very attached to them yeah yeah well if you like larry carlton you play larry

carlton has his guitar you, some people have their guitar. Right. They don't switch around. Right. Like, this is my guitar. David, he's like that. Carlton's like that? Carlton's like that? Yeah, they have very, very most they have a very relationship. I don't know if it's like a don't touch my guitar thing,

but he has a very personal relationship with his guitar. Well, I guess B.B. did too, but I think there was a lot of Lucille's. That's okay. Yeah, there's a lot of them. Just don't touch the one you got in his hand or in the dressing room

or the one sitting next to the one. Sitting next to the one. It's like, what was it? What Albert King says? Just put your hands on my Lucy. I don't know what I'm doing to you. Just to put your hands on my Lucy I don't know what I'm doing to you I love Albert

I saw Albert King there a lot of times Yeah, with that flying V Oh, please Well, you guys are doing great And I think the new album's great I hope you had a fun time in here today Oh, yeah, we did You can hang around if you want.

We know where you live now. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. So how many dates are you doing? We've got, I think it's 90 dates all together. Oh, my God. And it's over to a 10-week period. Okay.

Breaks. We're going through, with breaks, going through to October. And which website can people go look to see? Tajmo. Tajmo. Tajmo.com? Yep. Thanks, fellas. You know, look, I couldn't.

I'm sorry. I love talking to those guys, but there was no way I could facilitate playing. I'm just glad we got that few seconds there with Taj. I can play. Do you want me to play some dirty blues oriented material okay alright

oh by the way my Netflix special has a date September 5th alright if you're still listening September 5th is the date of my Netflix special and just a little commentary that I didn't do at the top All right, if you're still listening, September 5th is the date of my Netflix special. And just a little commentary that I didn't do at the top about our current political situation.

Of course he knew. Of course. Of course. Okay, that's my political commentary. And now I'll get my rig set up and put my headphones, my earplugs in so I don't blow my ears out. God damn it. ¶¶ Boomer lives! It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls?

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