WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 835 - The Lucas Brothers

Episode Date: August 6, 2017

Keith and Kenny Lucas are identical twins and Marc is freaking out at how similar they are. Well, freaking a little bit anyway, but only at first because once the three of them get talking it's hard not to be taken with the Lucas Brothers' story. They talk about their childhoods, their philosophy-based education, their attempt to go into law, culminating with a mere two-and-a-half years in which they were apart, and it almost ruined them. Thankfully, as they tell Marc, comedy came calling. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fucking ears, what the How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck, Knicks? What the fuck, Akrats? What the fuck, publicans? How's it going? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast.

Welcome to it. It's called WTF. Thank you for enjoying. Thank you for joining. Thank you for being here. I'm getting a lot of emails from people who are watching me on Glow and apparently never knew I existed, which is fine. Not complaining. It's nice to be discoverable. It's nice to know that most people have no idea who I am. And I'm being honest. I'm very okay with that. But it is kind of interesting to get emails from people who see me, wonder about me,

search my name, and then they have like 800, 900, whatever, however many podcasts we've done. They've got my show. They've got my five or six comedy records. They're going to have the books, the two books. I'm happy that they have a rabbit hole. I hope it doesn't exhaust them of me because God knows I'm exhausted by the Marin rabbit hole

because I'm living in it. It's in my head. It's always open. It's a very easy door. There's no lock on it. It's kind of blowing open. It's kind of creaky and blowing open. I'm like, what's going on in there?

Oh, not again. Not again. But today on the show, I have the Lucas brothers, which was pretty great. It was a really good time. Keith and Kenny Lucas are identical twin brothers that dress pretty much the same. And it's very trippy to talk to them both at the same time for over an hour. I mean, trippy in the real sense of trippy. Like, what the same time for over an hour. I mean trippy in the real sense of trippy. Like, what the fuck?

Oh my god, there's two of you. But I didn't know what to expect. They've got a new special on I believe it's on Netflix. Yeah, it's called On Drugs. The Lucas Brothers, On Drugs. And that's a double entendre.

Is that the right word? On, as in terms of paper on something, and then also on drugs, like I'm high. But either way, I didn't know what to expect, and I had a really good time with these guys, so that's going to be happening in a little while. Also, speaking about drugs, I am a little squirrely, you know, I'm squirrely, and this happens every year around this time. When you listen to this, if you listen on Monday, it'll be August 7th. And on Wednesday, August 9th, I'll acknowledge the day.

I'll acknowledge the monumental achievement on Wednesday of 18 years sobriety for me 18 years sober on Wednesday so I don't know anything could happen between now when I'm talking to you and Wednesday I'll let you know Thursday hopefully Thursday will be just another show and not just maybe no show at all like where's Mark I don't know man he couldn't hack it it's coming up on that 18th sober anniversary and he just he's out in Palm Desert somewhere he's out in Desert Hot Springs with some dude in a trailer I don't know what the fuck they're doing but it's not good uh yeah I'll bring the mics with me on that one on the the meth relapse I'll make sure to have the mics with me I'll interview whoever I'm doing it with not gonna happen people relax making a

dark joke but i do i do notice a difference and i i don't know some of you who have some sobriety out there know that that coming up on those uh those markers you get i get like i'm irritable like you know i should be going to meetings but even now like i'm sort of like you know fuck the meetings i don't want to deal with it i mean you know i just don't want to i mean you know impatient i'm edgy i mean get you know i'm having dreams you just get squirrely man i and you don't realize i don't want to believe it's true but your brain fucking knows i i three days ago i had a dream i mean this i'm a long time sober ready you know granted you know i do my nicotine lozenges and i get jacked up on coffee especially now that i have a little downtime like

i'm on my second pot of coffee here and i'm recording this before noon so like you know it's not like i'm not you know activating the neurotransmitters but you know these aren't things that are making my life unmanageable and they you know they're they're acceptable but the the booze and drug thing man so i have a dream i'm in the dream and it's it's real as hell man real as hell this is three days ago coming up on my 18th sober anniversary and i got a dream it's just i'm just sitting at a bar and um i just ordered my second jack and coke it was a familiar looking bar it looked like a bar that like i you know i must in my dream it felt like i lived there i'm getting my second jack and coke and i'm smoking cigarettes and i'm with dean delray for some reason i'm not blaming him on for anything it's not i'm sure he didn't have you know cajole me into drinking he's

pretty sober dude himself very healthy guy but for some reason it was me and dean not i'm sure he didn't have you know cajole me into drinking he's pretty sober dude himself very healthy guy but for some reason it was me and dean and i'm just sitting there and the thing i remember from the dream is that feeling in my lungs from smoking cigarettes you know when you smoke cigarettes and you've been smoking a long time there's always a little bit of a kind of a wet ache in your in your lungs and i remember in the dream that i had that that wet ache in my lungs from smoking cigarettes and i was about to get that second jack and coke and in the dream i'm thinking i'm like man i'm not i'm not sober anymore this is like i'm i'm drinking right now. And am I going to tell anybody?

How am I going to handle this? That's really all I remember. The wet ache and wondering whether or not I would cop to drinking. And also that first sip of Jack and Coke. Whoo, man. Oh, bless you. Go to a meeting. Oh, fuck.

Yeah, you better go Go to a meeting. Oh, fuck. Yeah, you better get a fucking meeting. It's got a little shivery shivs. That wet ache. That first sip. A little shivery. A little shivery. So what do I do? What do you do for a sober anniversary?

Well, here in the Los Angeles area, they call them birthdays. And you go to a meeting and get a cake. And you blow out a bunch of candles and share your gratitude and talk about your story a little bit and get a couple of your old pals to give you your cake. And that's that. You get a coin right on time. Sarah, the painter, got me a 17 17 year coin. Maybe she'll get me an 18 year coin. Cause I, I just recently lost a 17 year coin right on time, right on time. Cause they just, they just build up the coins. And it's funny when you're going in and out, you know, when you're not quite getting this over thing, you just start amassing coins there. They're not a, they're not a great indication. You know, you just got a lot of these attempt coins but you know keep going

keep trying but what i usually do inappropriately on my sober birthday is i uh i will email my ex-wife who got me sober i don't speak to her she doesn't like me she doesn't want to hear from me at all but yet i i insist on sending an email to an address that I'm sure is. She gets one email a year from that address. And it's me going, thank you for getting me sober. I do that despite the fact that probably ruins her fucking day. But, you know, I feel it's necessary. I will give credit where credit is due.

But, you know, I feel it's necessary. I will give credit where credit is due. And it wouldn't have happened without her despite what happened after that. You know what I'm saying? Things, you know, life. Life. So that's what's going on with me. Oh, I had this other dream.

Oh, shit. I just remembered the other dream. I think it was this house. This is not an alcohol-related dream, but it fucked me up. I think it was this house. This is not an alcohol-related dream, but it fucked me up. I think it was my house. It was this house, and there was a party going on,

and I don't know. There's a lot of people there. Everyone was in costume, but I was not in a costume, but I was not dressed how I usually dress. I was dressed like I used to dress maybe 10 years ago, and maybe I was dressed as me 10 years ago, but it was clearly a costume party. I felt very out of place. It was my house and I wasn't in costume. And I went out the back

door here by the garage and I walked down the hill here and I'm looking down on the hill, there's a pond that doesn't exist in real life, but it exists in the dream. So this kind of muddy pond and I'm just up on the edge and I'm looking at the pond and out of the ground, just above the pond, this giant snake comes out. And I'm just watching it come out of the dirt, like a giant, like anaconda size, like one of those massive goat eating snakes just comes out and just slithers into the water. And I remember in the dream, I made a mental note, don't go into pond, snake. And then I walked around to this other,

and there seemed to be a clearer water there. And I saw a seal. And what was the other animal? Because I knew that they, not only was a seal not supposed to be here in the hills of Highland Park in Los Angeles in some freshwater adjunct to a snake infested pond, but there was another animal with it that didn't make sense. It might not have even been a water animal.

I remember seeing the other animal being like, that's weird in the water and like, oh, there's a seal. And that was all that was all of that one. If you have any ideas, I'm open. was all of that one if you have any ideas i'm open i do like the idea of being at a costume party and being the only one not in costume because that's happened in reality but why is it happening in my head all right so what have i been doing uh with my downtime well yesterday was a big day i uh i went to a box of wires and cords you know the one i'm talking about box of wires and cords i don't know they just build up and i like i'm in this process of making life lighter so i went i was like i got nothing to do the fucking world stinks you know i get things are out of control i'm terrified all the time

how do i make this manageable well there's that box of wires and cords that could use some organizing once you wrangle that fucker into into place so you go you know these wires they're just they you don't know no you don't know what they're for everything comes with more wires than you need you buy electronic things it's like they come with the wire you need and then a wire that you're like what does this one even do who knows how to use this one should i read something does it do more than i think or is it for some other piece of equipment that i don't have what does this wire do fuck it put it in the box so eventually you have a box of these useless wires or wires you don't need and then

you got to go through it and make some decisions i don't know what to do with it it's sitting out on the deck now i don't need any of them i haven't looked at those wires in years and now i've gone through them and now i'm ready to throw them away. But they still got the twisties on them. And some of them are in plastic. They're good. They're new wires. What do you do?

What am I going to take them to Goodwill? It's just, it's not. You can't do that. I could go put them on the street and just maybe write on the box, wires, and see maybe that'll work. Or I could throw them away. throw them in the fucking garbage if i haven't used them in years i'm probably not going to use them all right look let's talk to the lucas brothers as i said their new special on netflix is called lucas brothers on drugs and i i had a

great deal of fun talking to these hi it's terry'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis

Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Guys.

It's funny, not unlike my first experience in seeing you two. Like I drove up, I didn't think you'd be here, and then you both come out. Yeah. And I think the first time I met you guys, here and then you both come out yeah and uh I think the first time I met you guys I mean where the hell was that like in Portland or Chicago it was uh Austin Texas yeah at a festival at a festival right and I thought I was tripping like I couldn't

quite manage the you didn't you did seem shocked not shocked but it was like perplexed I was overwhelmed there were two of you very well-defined humans, both fashion-wise and appearance-wise, and I'm like, I'm going to have to take this in small doses. That's fair. It can be overwhelming, man. But is that something you deal with your whole life as twins? At birth, yes.

I guess you're kind of weird and special at the same time. Right. And you just sort of live with it. It becomes so... It becomes a part of your existence. Yeah. You're referred to as a twin. Right.

You don't even have an identity as an individual. So you sort of just... Even our mom called us Kenny and Keith. She didn't say Kenny or Keith. Oh, it was always a dual thing. It was always a dual thing. You always came in a pair. Always.

Never, no, mom didn't pull either of you aside and say like, you know, you're the good one. She did a good job in like treating us as equals. Yeah. I was two minutes older, so I would get the, I'm the older twin, but I'm like, come on. That's like the joke, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have other siblings? Yeah, we have two younger brothers.

Are they, it's so funny, I was about to say normal. Yeah, they are. They are normal. They're younger? Yeah. So, but I guess these twin questions don't have anything to do with anything other than curiosity. Sure.

Well, I mean, how often do you meet them? That's fair. Out in the world. Are you guys part of a club? The Twin Club? Yeah, yeah. Do you have that? Deuces, man.

Well, there is a festival. Deuces. Deuces is much better than Twin Club. There's a festival that's dedicated to twins. So I guess on some small level. We are, yeah, yeah. Twinsburg. Twinsburg.

But I mean, that's sort of odd that you have this specific birthright. Yeah. And that it's unique, and it's not incredibly common, right? But you would think that, you know, what's your opportunity to meet other identical twins and like i'd love to see a support group of identical twins dealing with the the way they're misunderstood by people we just met a pair of twins uh uh caplan twins they're girls and they're our first twins ever met in hollywood yeah like best friends now like we love you guys thank you guys for understanding our plight.

It's not really a plight. It's just an existence that's fairly unique. Black twins, black male twins are the rarest. Black male twins? So you're like a... We should be put in the Bible. We are like a miracle. We should be placed in the New Testament.

But I like that you've done that research. Oh, of course. Of course. I mean, you've got to stay abreast. How rare? What are we talking? One in a million? More than that.

More than that. I'm saying one in maybe like 10 million. Wow. I think it's one in 10 million. I don't know what a twins group would really talk about, just like a bunch of people at the end of the reps going like, we just like to dress. Do we have to split up? Yeah to dress do we have to split up yeah why do we have to split up why is it okay for gangs to dress like and not twins all right but honestly why do you dress alike uh look it's part

it's part just like because no one else can do it yeah it's almost just like why not yeah you know like why not be eccentric yeah in a way that more eccentric than just being identical twins yeah and fuck like he like he he like he wears a lot of things that i like to wear so i was like fuck i'm not gonna change up my wardrobe it's a lot easier too oh yeah i could just grab his clothes like i don't have to think about my own shit like if i was like a stylish guy who wore blazers i mean that's a lot of work yeah it's like you don't have to make those conversations where you're like are you wearing that you're gonna fuck this whole thing up because there's no way i can wear that well he tried to

change up his wardrobe he's like no i'm gonna start wearing like toboggan hats and i'm like oh come on man like i can't i don't want to wear that not in the not in the winter time man so you have to have those negotiations let's we find a middle way on the headgear. And when things get really tense, you've got to threaten something. So I'll threaten to shave off my beard. Like if I'm like, no, you've got to pay the extra rent. I'm going to take it off. You're going to be all alone.

I'm taking it off. But where did you guys come from? We were born in Newark, New Jersey. Really? Yeah. That's where my roots are from, Elizabeth. Oh, okay, Elizabeth. Well, I mean, I wasn't born there, but my grandfather was born there.

I was born in Jersey City. Oh, wow. Yeah, Jersey City's right there. Yeah, it's all right there. All those shitty places. All those. They're just right together. They're just clumbling together.

Jersey City, Newark, and Elizabeth. But how long did you spend there? You got family there still? Oh, we still have family there. We spent a long time in Newark. I mean, from one until 18. Yeah. We moved around a bunch, and we lived in North Carolina for a bit.

What part of North Carolina? High Point. I don't know where that is. It's in between Charlotte And Winston-Salem No Greensboro No Greensboro But you're You're Jersey guys

Really Yeah Jersey dudes And you know So what kind of What's your Your mom and pop Still together

They never married Oh No They were together For like eight seconds Had us And then that was Their relationship

So it was a miracle Yeah But what about The other siblings They're half brothers Yeah Oh got it Yeah And then that was their relationship. So it was a miracle. But what about the other siblings? They're half-brothers. Oh, got it. So your dad's gone. Yeah, I mean, he went to prison when we were six.

He's still around, but we don't really have much of a relationship. No. Oh, really? No. But your mom did, or how did you know about him at all? They took us to go see him in prison when we were, like, five. I was like, I don man i'd rather just like you know it is what it is yeah i mean i want to just chill home and watch cartoons but yeah i guess i'll go to prison on saturday morning what what what was his reaction when the two of you turned up looking the same i don't i don't i think he was too concerned about prison i was thinking about

i don't think he was you didn't have a moment don't even know what I was thinking about. I don't think he was too concerned. He didn't have a moment where he was like, holy shit, what are the odds? What are the odds that I had two of them? Eight seconds. That's crazy. So no relationship there, huh? I mean, we tried, but it's hard. I mean, like, there's literally something standing in between us and him, which is prison.

Yeah. Oh, he's still there? He's not there now. He got out in 03, 04? Yeah, 04. But by that point, we were... And what about your mom, the new guys? Did he act like your dad?

He was a stepfather in every sense of the word. The good senses? Bad. Horrible. He was terrible. He wasn't the greatest dude. They got divorced. Yeah.

They got divorced when we were like 15. Was he shitty to both of you equally? Oh, yeah. That's the thing. He treated us equally. He treated us equally. I'll give him that. I'll give him that.

I'll give him that. He was an equal opportunity. So if one of you fucked up, it's like, I don't care. You're both paying for it. Yeah, he did do that. He fucked us both over when I screwed up. I apologize. It's okay, man.

Oh, look at that. Barry and Hatchets. What was that about? Some bullshit? I was just a bit of a wow child. Oh, yeah? I think I starred for attention. So I would do things like, I don't know.

I stuck my middle finger up to my teacher once. Oh, yeah. She told me. Your first act of comedy. My first act of comedy. I was like Go fuck yourself Yeah

Everybody ratted me out But my stepfather Didn't like that And then did you guys Have to have a conference That's like Look if you're gonna do Bad shit

I'm gonna take the hit for it So we gotta talk about it Before it happens Yeah And wonder To decide whether or not It's worth the risk You should've given me

More pep talk I should have man I just trusted your judgment But I guess I shouldn't have so so did you guys go into the city a lot yeah we our uncle our godfather he would take us to the city all the time because he would do business there yeah we just drive there and I remember going over the just like driving into it over out of the Holland tunnel and I would see like the the building yeah yeah I was Tunnel, and I would see the buildings.

I was seven years old, and I was just like, holy shit, I'm amazed by this. Wasn't that fucking exciting? It was the most exciting thing. You get enamored. You're like, what is this? You're just overwhelmed by the... Because Newark is a ghetto.

It's terrifying. It's scary. But when you drive into New York, it's something totally different. Everything levels out. Yeah. How could this be a ghetto? Look at it.

Yeah. How do people even fit into this place? I remember doing that drive because I was a kid, too. And, you know, I was in New Jersey from, like, one to, like, six years old. But my grandparents, the whole family was always there. So we moved to New Mexico, and I'd go back every year. But when you're a kid, and, like, whoever drives you in yeah whether it's the bridge usually it was the tunnel right so lincoln tunnel i went you're linking yeah we did holland so like you go through the lincoln tunnel

you come out and it's just sort of like it's it's overwhelming and amazing every part of it like you're just looking out the window you're like where does it end yeah buildings yeah it's just like you see so many people as fast paced yeah i mean the billboards, it's just like you see so many people at this fast pace. I mean, the billboards. It's just the mystique of New York. You instantly gravitate toward it. So when did you guys start being funny? From day one?

Were you like... Oh, it's crazy. You know, for a lot of comedians, humor comes from sort of being alone and being able to observe the world. So we started observing the world, I mean, early. Early. We started like... Because we were really quiet kids, so we were like...

Everyone was sort of baffled? Yeah. They're twins, but are they okay? They thought we probably had mental... Yeah, we never talked. We barely talked in school. But when we were together, we would create these fictional worlds. It was crazy.

No one doesn't remember you guys. I imagine that no matter whether you talked or not, I imagine at every level of your history, there are people in your classes going like, oh, yeah, I remember those guys. And that's what people say. Oh, those guys never those guys never talk I think they would be comedians and we didn't think we would be comedians but what was it like what like how so like because you guys have this thing what you you didn't need to talk really because he always had each other was that the wayely. Like you had your own world.

Exactly. I didn't need to make friends. Right. And you protected each other and you looked the same. You probably could get away with things that other people couldn't. Totally. Totally. Absolutely.

There's got to be. All right, tell me the one girl story. It's not the girl. We did trick the government, though. We tricked the government. We did trick the government, though. We tricked the government. We went bigger. Oh, yeah. We don't like to limit our trickery.

Yeah, we want to do things that go against the system. So he took my driver's test for me. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did not take my road test. I had no confidence that he could pass it, and I was tired of hearing him complain about it, so I said, I'll do it, and I did it.

Were you nervous? No. No? The first time I was super nervous, but I failed my first time. Then I passed my second time with flying colors, and I was like, I'll just take his. So I kept failing, and I was like, all right,

let's just get this out of the way. But do you let him drive now? He can drive now. Yeah, he lets me drive. The first time I drove, though, I got into a car accident, which makes a lot of sense since I didn't know how to fucking drive. That's right. So that was it.

That was the big scam? Yeah, we never trick girls because, I mean... I think it's a crime. It is a crime. It is? Isn't it? Well... I would imagine that taking the driver's test on someone...

Yeah, but that's against the government, though, so fuck them. I can spin that and say it was like activism or some shit like that. You know, it was fighting the system, you know? Why are you keeping my brother down? Why are you keeping my brother down? Let him get his license. You already took my father away. Give me my license.

Well, that's good. Well, it's good that you don't have one of those Horrible You know Duping the girl stories I just don't feel right Doing it I don't know I don't remember What those stories are usually They're usually like

That girl thinks She's with one of you And she's with both of you And then we tag out And then we Right But then it's like You gotta like

What if you don't like the girl Or what if What if you don't want to date And what if you just Want to be a decent human You don't want to be A decent human being And not trick people All if you just want to be a decent human you don't want to be a decent human being and not trick people all the time

I want to be a super villain I want to use my powers for good well good okay so I get out here which one's Kenny and Keith? Kenny's right here to the left when people ask you that what is the identifying character

I'm the one with the what I'm more depressed you can't see it but it's there are you though I think so I would say he's

more depressed I mean I have my stage of depression but I feel like you know once you have that when you plateau and have that breakdown

you sort of build yourself back up and I feel like you're still I had my breakdown yeah really so you had different breakdown yeah yeah really wait so you've had different breakdown yeah different breakdown and yours was before my breakdown was you're in law school you're Keith I'm Keith yeah okay so you had a breakdown did you finish law school no they're both in law school we're both in law school yeah really

yeah you figured like this is it we got a a, you know, our law firm is going to be like, think of the commercials. Lucas and Lucas. Like people would come to you just to see you. Yeah. It would be a spectacle. Yeah, we might be shitty lawyers, but they look the same. Oh, those commercials would have been great if you were an ambulance chaser. We can still do those commercials.

That's the thing. We're not, we can still do this. Have you done them? We want to. That's a good sketch. That's right. That's right., we can still do this. Have you done them? We want to. That's a good sketch. That's right. That's right. So you got, all right, so you go to high school in Newark.

We, so we went to three different high schools. Yeah. Well, four, four. Four different high schools. Yeah. Started off in High Point, North Carolina. And then we went to a few in Newark, New Jersey. And then we graduated from one in Irvington. Probably the worst high school in Jersey.

Yeah. And where'd you go to college? I went to the College of New Jersey. It's a small liberal arts, like real close to Princeton. What were you studying? What was the... Philosophy. That's where I was getting at.

Like, we get in here. I'll get back around to it. Let's move through the separate depressions. Yeah. And how you took care of each other. Were you like, I've been through this shit. I know it's that. You remember me?

I did this already, man. Listen to me. You can't understand my pain. No, I can. I can, literally. We have the same DNA. Oh, God. But so you studied philosophy because that's what we walk in here and you're

dropping spinoza yeah baby because i've been obsessed with the guy i got his books over there i can't get through them i always wanted to understand philosophy but there's a language to it yeah you got to learn first and there's a lot of things that got to be laid down about things like phenomenon being yeah you know substance yeah right and and like i just never got hold of it i don't have the uh the the uh like i would really have to nerd out and i'm not that nerdy that's fair no no and like it always bums me out because i always look at those books going like it's all in there and i can't i can't access it like roland barth's i could get i can get the post-modernist a bit because they're kind of funny.

Like Brogier, I can get Nietzsche, kind of. The poems are good. But still, it just seemed like anything that you would fucking pick up. You got to start here, man. Start here. I think I had that. Bertrand Russell, he elucidates the theories, I think, in a very clear fashion. But obviously, you want to read through the original text, but.

But there's no point to read Prometheus. You can just read. Oh, just the name exhausts me. I didn't even know that guy, but the E.D.'s at the end, it's like, I can't go back that far. Yeah, that's fair. I read Plato's Republic. Yeah, yeah.

I read Aristotle, the Ethics, right? Is that his? Aristotle, the,ics, right? Is that his? Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics and the Symposium. It's still pretty fresh with you guys. You're still carrying around the history of Western philosophy. I consider that the Bible, man. Really? The Bertrand Russell book.

Yeah. Didn't he write one that's a lot more simple? Fuck it. Hold on. I think that was Bertrand. Probably is. Oh, here it is. Right there. Hold on. I think that was Bertrand. Probably is. Oh, here it is. Right there.

Is that Bertrand? Yes, Bertrand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Problems of philosophy. Yeah. This is what I was told as a novice. It was like, just get that and we'll get into it, right? That's a good one to start with, too.

Yeah, so I'm like, all right, this will lay it out for me. The contents, appearance and reality. All right, that sounds good. And then right the second chapter you get into like the existence of matter i'm like do i have time yeah that's it that's it you gotta love a lot you gotta like you got and i'm sure you love it but you have to like you have to it just takes patience it takes patience but it's like math man it's like it's very mathematical yeah because i took a philosophy class or logic class in college where I thought like this will be good. I'll learn. I've done this twice and I've talked about it a bit.

I took a logic class and I was there for like an hour, not even an hour, 10 minutes. I'm like, this is fucking math. This is math. Yeah. Right? Yeah, they deal with proofs. A lot of geometry influences. Since Descartes, geometry has pretty much dominated philosophy.

But even since Pythagoras. Pythagoras, too. But I did all right in geometry. I couldn't handle algebra. I couldn't handle chemistry. But like my senior year of high school, like I aced philosophy because there are pictures. But logic, I think I was looking for something else. I was like, I thought this was a logic class.

And that was. Symbol symbolic logic is what it is yep and then i took a philosophy class years later as an adult at the new school and i was smoking a lot of weed i was like you know i'm gonna i'm gonna ace it now like i took existentialism in college but i was distracted yeah yeah yeah like can't we just get to the answers yeah well that's the thing about philosophy like you never like they always conclude with oh well that's not an adequate answer but you know we're gonna still still speculate yeah that's the thing is so you guys dug it i dug it i really don't dig it still dig it even more now than i did in college i was still holding on

to i don't know some false beliefs in college but now i feel like my mind since ever since doing comedy but now like i i moved more into the poetic elements yeah yeah like you know there's a philosophy like philosophy like you know niches got all the good poetry, I move more into the poetic elements. Yeah. Like, you know, there's a philosophy, like, you know, Nietzsche's got all the good poetry, and I move more towards art, you know, and poetry. It's like, that's where we, like, my girlfriend's a painter, and I'm like, this is how you interpret shit. Yeah. This is what life is.

Yeah. You know, what do we got to complicate it with the fucking equations? Yeah, that's fair. But Spinoza, what's his trip because why were we referencing it coming so spinoza you know what i like about him is that he tries to ground the spiritual basis of christianity in science uh-huh so he's essentially trying to shift a jew religion from a jew yeah he's a jew he's sort They say he was the first secular Jewish person in Europe. Yeah, so he's a Jew.

He's saying, let's unpack this Christian business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fair. I didn't think about it on that level. I did not think about it on that level. Yeah, and he's just like, I just think his, based on like, I looked at the Hubble scope. You ever really look at the Hubble scope and you see like- The telescope?

Yeah, and you see the universe. I think his insights sort of predated that, where he's saying that like we're all sort of from the same source. Yeah. And that time is unreal and that- Yeah. There is objective truth in the universe. We just can't understand it because our minds are limited.

Right. Our perceptions are limited. Right. There's only so much we can see. And then after through that telescope i'm like holy crap there's more out there that we just don't yeah you can probably never comprehend we can never maybe well someone can probably comprehend it in the future but i don't know if we can now well let me ask you like uh just on a practical level see See, like, when you say that to me, I'm like, yeah, obviously, the space seems vast. It is vast. Yeah.

Like, but, you know, how do you not, you know, obviously, I'm pro-science. Sure. But, like, you know, I had to change my tire today. And, you know, and that took, you know, two days of thinking. Yeah. So, like, you know, getting from So getting from there to what about this universe is sort of like, I don't know if I have the time for that. I'm not sure that it's going to help me right now.

That's fair. I think for me, it's good to know that there's someone thinking about things that I think about. And he provides pretty reasonable arguments. Like he says, yeah, the universe is deterministic, materialistic right we probably don't have free will right I think that's true but we do have a mind that can speculate we have a mind that can go it's limitless it's limitless your mind can think about anything so in that sense we are free right like we can we're free to think about the shit that we want to think about. Right. So you're saying that, okay, so this premise is that the universe is just entropic and deterministic, and everything sort of happens outside of us, and we have very little control over anything.

Yes. But we do have a freedom of mind. We have consciousness. We have consciousness. That's another way to put it. Is that yours? Certainly not. That's good. I'm it. Is that yours? Certainly not. That's good.

I'm going to write that down. Consciousness. Awareness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Self-awareness. It's amazing. But no, a connection to the universe. I mean, if the universe is comprised of consciousness and it's through us, then one could argue that.

We're connected to something larger. No, I get that but i guess it really what you do then with all this information it's just a nice sort of groundwork to uh to to understand reality from yeah i mean yeah precisely you know it you don't have any problem with reality the idea of reality i do yeah i i think that i think that we think that we live in a reality, but we're actually suspended in space. And the only reason that our Earth is the way it is are because of the conditions that are set by the universe. Gravity. But you got no truck with the fact that I'm holding a cup.

Yeah, I'm not an extreme skeptic. Well, I mean, if you reduce that to a subatomic particle. No, I get that. But there's something there. Yeah, sure. But it's not what we think it is. Yeah, but you can't be engaged on that level every day when you wake up. It's like, I want some eggs.

It's like, what difference does it matter what you eat when you break it down? But I think as a human, you just make certain assumptions and then you just move on with your life. You have to. Yeah, you have to. You can't get stuck at the cup or no cup. Yeah, exactly. But you can't get stuck at the cup or no cup exactly but you can also speculate yeah and that's the beauty of the human mind sure when you want to

annoy people yeah that's right with your philosophical wisdom you know one of those two of you two assholes going like like wait like but do we really really know it's like oh fuck the Lucas twins are doing it again just you cornering one idiot who's like but wait how many times has that happened I try not to be an asshole

well that's open interpretation isn't it it really is I'm going to bring in three people that met you in college but what does it mean to be an asshole that's the question you must ask yourself oh I know what it means It really is. I'm going to bring in three people that met you in college. But what does it mean to be an asshole? That's the question you must ask yourself. Oh, I know what it means. I'm very clear.

When the girl is crying. Okay. That's fair. That's a definitive conclusion. Yes, you're right. You were probably being an asshole. So the fact that you still carry the history of Western philosophy, we didn't finish.

Spinoza found some scientific, what did he glean? Why were we talking about him when we came in here? I don't think he did much research. I think he was more of a thinker. He was a pure rationalist. A pure rationalist. But I just think that he got it right

on some level where he's saying that we're all from the same source. Right. Africa, right? Africa, yeah. We're all from Africa. We're all niggas. We're all niggas. That's what's been noticed.

You're all niggas, guys. They retitled that book, though, didn't they? Isn't it called The Ethics? Now it's called The Ethics. I couldn't use the N word. Yeah, they had to change it up a bit. Yeah, all right. So I get that.

And he was banished from every major... Yeah, he got what? The Catholic Church. Isn't that interesting, when you really think about those sort of cataclysms of history and persecution and that you know, that these thinkers were, you know, put away. And, like, it's been a very kind of, like, horribly chaotic and destructive process civilization. Oh, yeah.

And by then, everybody was pretty well civilized. I know. Crazy. But it was church-driven, right? Church and a state. The church had the power of the state. Even now the cataclysms continue. They just continue.

It seems like it gets more powerful, which is strange. You would think that with the advances of science and the fact that we have more information. Well, science is in its infancy and then religion has been associated with politics in the state since Constantine. Religion has been fighting science since day one. Since day one. Yeah. Since one dude was like, oh. Well, progress on those levels is less important to people

who want to attain and maintain power. Right? That's right. And get shit done and get all the money. Yep. That's it. That's all it's about. Get power, man.

You'll do whatever it takes to get that. I don't understand that. I'm so fortunate that you know i've got a lot of flaws but greed ain't one of them yeah yeah like i don't i don't have that one you know i don't understand the logic of it foregoing any sort of moral intent yeah you know or justifying or rationalizing out of greed i just don't have that one. Same, same. I got other problems. I got drug problems.

Yeah, me too. I got the other six, seven dead leads. But at least you don't got greed. I don't got that one. For some reason, greed just strikes me as like, not only do you want to acquire power and money, but it's something that you have to constantly think about. You're not happy unless you have obtained this

thing. Even when you obtain all the material in the world, you're still not happy. That's what strikes me. Greed is such a mental thing. Look in the index of the History of Western Philosophy under happiness. See what's

listed. How many pages in there? Happiness? They probably have. Give it a try. Maybe it's not for happiness. Maybe what's listed. How many pages in there? Oh, yeah. Happiness, they probably have. Yeah. Give it a try. Maybe it's not for happiness. Maybe it's just power. You just want to dominate other people. But the question of happiness, you know, as comics, as philosophers, and as an idea, is it in there?

It's definitely in there. Oh, I bet. That's all they talk about. Oh. Happiness is. There it is. Yeah. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.

Oh, really? Nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17. Yeah, it's. And wait, can you sum up some of the philosophical arc around happiness? I think the big thing for philosophers is that to be happy, you have to live a virtuous life committed to reason. To the study of. To the study of philosophy.

Oh, that's all philosophy. That's metaphysics. Metaphysics. Epistemology. Epistemology. Logic. Aesthetics. Right.

Aesthetics, all of it. You have to be committed to understanding. Living clean. Living clean. Balancing shit. Yeah. Making room for new shit. Yeah.

But arguing about it. Sure, yeah. Debating, room for new shit. Yeah. But arguing about it. Sure, yeah. Debating, discussing. Criticizing everything. Being annoying. Being an asshole. Well, it's good that you guys didn't talk to other people much. So you just have these conversations with each other?

Did it ever come down to like, you know, I'm going to hit you if you don't shut up because you're wrong about this metaphysical situation. We've gotten to some very intense discussions regarding metaphysics. It's crazy. It gets really, really heated. Because I'm more of a rationalist and he's more of an empiricist. I would say so. He likes to say that I'm an extreme skeptic, which I'm not. I think I'm more, I'm a little bit more cautious.

I mean, I'm a little bit more skeptical. mean I'm a little bit more More skeptical You're skeptical But not an extreme skeptic Yeah I like to make bold assertions Like what? Like free will doesn't exist Yeah Or that time is unreal

And I would argue that There's not enough information to conclude that You know what I mean And that is an execution of his free will He's just shutting you the fuck down That's fair Yeah I think you're wrong What are you going to do now?

So I guess that proves it yeah shit if i was gonna punch you i would have done it already so so you guys are so this all gets turned you get turned on to this shit in college yeah and then you're like you know, I guess there was a twin, you know, conversation of like, well, what do we do with all this bullshit? And you thought law. Yeah. Because you wanted to be this philosophically virtuous dudes. Yeah.

Who were gonna, you know, help. No. I wish that was the mode of thinking. It was more, I was poor. So it was greed. It was driven by greed. I wanted to make money. Law was the, law seemed to be the

only path. We did a internship at Princeton, a fellowship at Princeton with professors and we saw what the life would be like for PhD candidates and we talked to some of them. In philosophy? Yeah,

and it sounded brutal. It was like, it was hard to get a job. I was like, but you guys go to Princeton, you should be able to get a job outside of, and they were like,

no, it's difficult. No one's looking for philosopher PhDs that focused on Kant. Yeah. So maybe Kant's metaphysics. Like,

we need a doctor in here. Can someone help us? Yes, I am a doctor in philosophy. You can't help, motherfucker. This guy's bleeding. You're going to think away the problem? Well, is it a problem?

Yeah. Or is it? Someone knows it would say it's not. So the compulsion towards law had nothing to do with uh with uh justice no no no no i don't even know what that's disappointing i'm disappointed in myself it is what it is what is justice what is it what is it i beat to me i mean maybe some version of equality but then you're like what is equality i think it's equal treatment fair treatment under the law yeah but even then you gotta that's a specific type of justice yeah

i know so aristotle plato said justice is just allowing you know the greatest minds to rule the uh yes philosopher king yeah yeah that that doesn't pan out no generally they're they're either you know relatively ineffectual or horrendously tyrannical. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know,

the problem, the wiggle room on the best minds is like, it's the new idea guys that are a real problem. Oh, yeah. Big problem.

Oh, yeah. They are psychotic and they justify everything. That's right. Everything. Yeah, I'm the smartest man in the world

and this is the way it's going to work. Oh, you don't like that? Put him in the hole. Mm's right. Everything. Yeah, I'm the smartest man in the world and this is the way it's gonna work. Oh, you don't like that? Put him in the hole. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's the dudes with the bold ideas.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mussolini. Sure, bold ideas in uniforms. Yeah, yeah. Nine times out of ten, not a good guy.

Not a good guy. Tinsley to Terry. Hundreds of thousands of people will probably die. Yeah, yeah. It's been going on since the beginning. Since the beginning.

Unbelievable. So, all right, so you go to law school and how do you crap out there man you still i think you guys would have been great teachers everybody would have wanted to like you know get high and go to the lucas brothers philosophy yeah you know we still might do it like since i've rekindled my love for philosophy but yeah law just was the antithesis of how How old are you guys? 31. Oh, so you still got that thing, like we could still teach. You know, if this doesn't...

Yeah. The Lula sells him to believe in that. That'll go away. If it doesn't work. I know, I know, I know, I know. Because eventually you get to a point, it's like, what credentials do we have to teach anything? Yeah, that's right.

Well, maybe... It's philosophy. Yeah, it's philosophy. Socrates didn't get a PhD. He just sort of spews some nonsense. Sure, yeah. So you want to get a PhD. He just sort of used some nonsense. Sure, yeah. So you want to be street teachers? Yeah.

You want to be like those guys? Yeah, absolutely. What are the weird twins doing over there? They're talking about some shit, and then people are hanging out. If Manson was able to get a following, I think we could figure it out. Yeah, that didn't go well either. It went well for a bit, and then he just- Very, very short period of time.

Didn't seem to have the right answers. The agenda was a little dubious. Well, I mean, he was talking about the black-white race war, and I think we're inching closer. I don't know. He wanted to start it. He wanted to start it. But his problem was it was already happening. Yeah.

The race war has been around since we got here. Yeah, absolutely. It's been a perpetual war. Right. He was just trying to modernize it by some very small, violent here. Yeah, absolutely. It's been a perpetual war. Right. He was just trying to modernize it by some very small violent endeavors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a lofty

thinker, that guy. So you got to law school and you just were like, fuck it? No, I was my first year, because I went to NYU. I was literally right around the corner from the Comedy Cellar. Where was he? He was at Duke. You guys split up?

We split up for two and a half years. Holy shit. How'd that go? Brutal. It was weird, man. That was the first time I was treated as an individual. It was a little shocking for me. Couldn't handle it.

I don't like being known as Keith. I'm like, who is Keith? Who is this Keith guy you're talking about? I had to flesh him out now. I'm like, oh, fuck. This is way too much work for me. As a twin. Where's Kenny?

Where's Kenny? Where's the person that's always by my side? And what, is that when you went into your depression? Yeah. It is. Yeah, it was when, you know, I didn't, I wasn't really feeling law. I didn't like the job. I didn't like the job. I didn't like.

But you both went to different law schools. That was the deal. And they were good ones. Good ones. But I mean, when you don't have your brother there, I feel like that, at least for me, it impacted how I treated the career. It felt like we were slowly, slowly just breaking apart. Yeah.

Gradually. You felt that too? Same. Yeah. And I was in a relationship at the time and I could only think about my brother. And I remember

when we would attack philosophy, we would do it together. Right. We'd have discussions and so much of hours just talking about things. Oh, it's making me sad. I'm glad that I can see

that it ended up in a happy ending. But right now in the story, I'm like, oh, what happened? Yeah, so you do get that separation. So you were with a woman? Yeah.

And you were alone? I was a free wheeler, free, just free. And were you kind of kicking around campus alone going like, he doesn't like me anymore. I mean. He's got that chick. I started to just like lose myself into other things like booze and oh really girl yeah yeah trying to find some sort of replacement to i developed a drug habit yeah while in law school you did yeah same same oh really smoking a lot of marijuana and just

trying to get my mind off of the idea of like traveling this universe you're mostly alone yeah so like i got so used to the philosophy the philosophy the philosophy fucked you yeah yeah because like you understood it intellectually but in in a physical universe you're like but i'm not alone i got a guy that looks exactly like me always by my side and we need to pull this shit together because that's the only way we we don't we can fight the existential horror yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And the dread. You have all these thoughts in your head, and they just stay there when you're by yourself.

When I had my brother there, I could always just- Tell me about it. I can always just talk to him. Sure. Get it out. Yeah. And it was some fear. I treated him as my therapist.

Yeah. When in reality, I- But I did the same thing. Yeah. So it was a mutual- But is it really that or i i imagine that there has to be some strange uh symbiotic uh ability that you guys have over other people in terms of emotional understanding sure to each other at least absolutely like you know i've like i i know oh i know the scar brothers i think they're identical they are when i first started watching

the scar brothers i'm like they're doing the act of one guy. There was no definitive like, oh, he's the setup guy. He's the straight man. It was just sort of like finishing sentences and finishing thoughts. And it was very organic and kind of odd, but it was really like two guys doing one guy's act. Yeah. Yeah.

But I think the argument that we can make is that we are kind of one guy. We're just sort of split in a fucking womb. So now we're getting into medicine and philosophy. Yes. I think we are technically one guy. I think it's because we have such a shared experience. Right.

But I think you want to get to the point where you can specify the two and see who you can individualize. Infuse some of your pain into it that's distinct from his. Yeah, right. I have distinct pain I mean I have a I have a different set of issues that I have to deal with

and I think that if we can do you? yeah I think so absolutely I think so I think we worry about different things

I mean I think our depression comes from the same source yeah but how we deal with it interesting is a little different so you're you're fucking drinking

you're getting fucked up down in, what is that? North Carolina. He's in New York City, which is, he's already got the edge on it. He's like in the world. He's in a,

he's in a better place. I'm not saying it's not, it's nice down there. Durham's beautiful. It's great. I was just there. It's great. Great town.

But you, you sort of like, again, it's that loneliness. You're constantly in your mind and you're starting to chase these things that you think will bring you happiness. And when they don't,

you sort of, I don't know, you have a bit of an existential breakdown. Right. Well, I think that's it. That's the thing about being in your head. If there are two of you,

at least you can just jump into his head and you can jump back and forth. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And it's been there since the womb. Since day one. You're doing that. That's right. Exactly. So been there since the womb. Since they were doing that.

That's right. Exactly. So what facilitated the reunion? Well, I thought about suicide. I was thinking suicide. Oh, my God. What the hell would he do? I know.

That's the reason I didn't do it. I was like, fuck it. Come on, man. That's the reason I didn't do it. I was like, I can't leave my brother on this earth by himself. So I said no, but I still had to. Was it self-pity, an intellectual exercise? Or when you look back on it, do you feel like you were really there?

No, it was more self-pity. I don't think I was there then. I think I was just going through a moment and I didn't know how to handle it. So it was one of those things. So did he come down and save you? I was actually in New York, but he did save me. And he was there for me for what? I was in, I don't know, you were always there for me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. At that point, I think he started to think, all right, maybe this law shit isn't the path for us. Maybe law, not just law, but maybe the circumstances of us not being together. Yeah. And is having an effect on both of us. Right. I was examining the consequences and saying to myself that if being separate and doing something that we don't like leads us here, then maybe we should do something together

that we do like. Yeah. That was the simple logic. Yeah, yeah. And so comedy, I would go to a comedy show all the time. It was right there. And I would just go watch and I was like I don't think we can I don't think we would be great at this but it could be it's fun we got a hook we got

a we got an angle yeah we love comedy so perhaps there's something there yeah so where'd you start in New York started in New York Jersey you dropped out of school I do he so he called me up. He was like, do you want to drop out? And I was like, absolutely. And so I dropped out and I moved to Jersey. He was living with his girlfriend at the time. And we were going through a breakup because I told her I didn't want to be a lawyer.

I wanted to be a stand-up comedian. And she was like, well, that's not realistic. And I was like, you're right. It's not. You should probably leave. But good for you're right it's not you should probably leave but good for you my brother's moving back I got my brother back

you know what he's cooler anyway we can play video games and smoke weed can't do that with you you have babies over and what what'd your mom

think of this decision our mom has always been super supportive of anything that we've done like she was just happy that we got out of high school. Yeah.

So when we said, well, we were going to do comedy for the sake of doing comedy, she was like, yeah, why not?

And she supported us. And she was probably happy you guys were together. Yeah. She just wants us to be happy. So anything that makes us happy,

she's completely on board. That's right. Did you tell her it was living a virtuous life? No, she's like, make some money. Virtue ain't gonna pay the bills. Virtue does not pay the rent.

I wish it did though. Awesome. So where'd you guys started in Jersey? Jersey. What were the first bits like? What was the angle? Man, I mean. Well, were you doing more sketch, did you think?

Or was it right from the beginning you had a dynamic? Well, Kenny started before me, so he sort of had... I took some comedy classes in New York. Did you learn things in those? I did. I think I learned a lot of good things. I think the one thing that stuck with me always was never hold the mic cord. It's weird.

Keep the mic up deliver your punch lines confidently i mean these are i know that they seem basic but like when you hold the mic cord don't like don't because there were comedians who would get up and they'd be nervous and then they start like playing with the cord and like looking around or playing with the well you do have to make some decision at some point so like is it going to stay in the stand or am i going to take that fucking thing out that's out and deal with that business? I like to do, I don't know. I like to play around with both of them.

Yeah, me too. It becomes, it obviously becomes habit of some kind. Of course. At some point, you're not hung up on, you know, what's going to happen with the microphone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I still go off mic sometimes, but I like to do it. But yeah, the only thing I have a problem with is the tripod stands. Like that one back there. If I see one of on stage i'm like that's no that's not

happening yeah that's gonna fuck you i don't like those gonna fuck you you're gonna hate when like it's attached to the piano and you gotta like oh that or i won't do cordless i won't ever no can't do it no yeah but it's philosophical thing i'm like i don't believe in this magic yeah that's fair yeah it's just weird they don't fit in the stand right they're always bulky they haven't aced it yet yeah so but those stands will always fuck you you're going to be wrestling with one of those things during your act if that's and usually it's at music venues and like nope just like what do they call it a 58 on a stick yep it's all i need

with a wire yep i need to know that I'm connected to something. That's right. But did you learn anything about structure? I think the biggest benefit of those classes is that usually you get to go on stage at the end. Yeah, that one showcase. The big payoff is like, we're going to do a night at Stand Up New York.

Yeah, I mean, it helps. You did it too? When I came to Jersey, we took a class. We took Joe Matariz's class at the Stress Factory. Joe was teaching one too? Joe was teaching one. Holy shit. Yeah.

Joe's a good guy. I love Joe. I like Joe. What'd you learn from Joe? To be intense? He was actually the one who said, just be you. Like, be yourself. Yeah.

Have fun. Like, just like, whatever you feel is right. I love that guy. I think he's a sweet guy. He's so great. Yeah. Yeah. He also said, like, you feel is right i love that guy i think he's a sweet guy he's so great yeah he yeah he also said like you know go personal like be personal yeah yeah talk about the issues that are affecting you yeah when we first started it was all just this observational stuff which we still kind of do but yeah we we realized at some point we had to get personal because you want to tell your story right like you i think Yeah, because I imagine at some point there's an audience going like,

what the fuck? How do you guys live? There is a strange, you know. Do you sit there in the morning and go like, do you want to wear these today? Or could I wear them? That happens. It does happen.

It does. It really does. And we think it's normal. Yeah, but it's not. It is normal for you. It is normal for us. It is normal for us. It's a very symbiotic relationship. Like, we...

I see him and I say, oh, this is what you should do or this is what you ought to do. It's like a back and forth. But you have this moment, like, we can't wear the exact same thing. You know, when we first started, we thought we had to be a little different. But as we're getting into it, we're like, fuck it, man. Let's, like... What language do we use? Let's maximize the not maximize the gimmick but let's let's take it to

his logic let's take the gimmick to his logical conclusion let's see i mean let's see how far it can go yeah uh yeah because why not yeah because why not that's the intriguing thing right yeah i think what's intriguing but also you guys are thoughtful guys. That becomes like, I imagine that becomes the bigger challenge is that once you realize like, you know, we maximize the gimmick, but, you know, what we really have to offer is our point of view. Sure. Either together or separate, you know, we're thoughtful, intelligent people that write thoughtful, intelligent stuff. So, you know, that has to transcend the gimmick. That has to be the surprise. Absolutely.

Right? I totally agree. I mean, I feel like if you can put some substance behind the gimmick, it'll have more of an impact. Or at least it'll satisfy. Because Hollywood wants us to be like stoners. The happy stoner. But you're going to be up against that, you know, like if you're going to be doing this together and you're going to be working this angle, like, you know, you're're gonna be a punchline until you're not. If you can transcend that, who knows?

Yeah, that's the challenge, right? Yeah, but I mean obviously we can transcend it in your own work, but in terms of casting and that kind of stuff, it's gotta be like, maybe when the thing on fire falls out the building, the two black guys, the twins, should be like, what happened, I don't know. the two black guys the twins

should be like what happened I don't know that's it that's no nuance the Hollywood nuance right there I mean

you know that's the thing that's why I'm glad we have stand up because stand up gives you that freedom gives you that freedom

to be you whereas Hollywood you know they're gonna put you in a box but yeah so you started in Jersey you were at Vinny's Club where were you be you. Yeah. Whereas Hollywood, you know, they're going to put you in a box. But, but yeah, so like, but the,

so you started in Jersey, you were at, at Vinny's club. Where were you? We did a lot of a small alternative rooms. It's not many in Jersey, but we realized quickly. Oh,

they were already there when you started. The alternative was a thing. Yeah. Bar shows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It was always like people who were just like taking it, taking some time off from like a job to do a part time. it wasn't until they weren't doing it right right not all of them but they weren't lifers yeah there were some lifers there but yeah they're always like we got to make the move in new york yeah those old jersey guys are sort of like i'll do the new thing they come down and then we we but did you like roger paul rooms and shit were those around yet the one-nighters and stuff no yeah maybe that was done we were doing uh do you ever do rascals was that gone no i think it's still there oh my god we ever did it no we were doing

rooms yeah like a lot of open mics yeah you guys came a different generation than me but you did you did vinny's Room. We did Stretch Factory once. Once. During that time. Yeah. And we did some of the open mics there, but we weren't really performing at big shows. When did you have an act? How long did it take?

Maybe three days ago. I think it might be there. Uh-huh. We still got some time. No, I mean, we sort of had a connection on stage, but we didn't have any substantive jokes. Yeah. I mean, maybe once we moved to Brooklyn. Yeah.

That's when we started to realize, okay, this is how you do stand-up. Well, because there's a community there. Yeah. The competition sets in. Yeah, you see people like Mark Norman. We got to get some game. Who? Like who?

We saw Norman and Michael Che. Michael Che and- Kevin Barnett. Barnett and- Everyone. Lawrence. All these guys were there at the same time. Lawrence. Mike Lawrence. Oh,. All these guys were there at the same time. Mike Lawrence.

They were all there at the same time. We went to this open mic called the Woodshed at Legion Bar. It was 50 to 60 comics. It was like those guys. They were just in two minutes. Some of the best jokes I've ever heard. I'm like, holy shit. Mike Lawrence is kind of a joke wizard.

He's a wizard. I mean, he's a maestro. And Norman's a maestro. Who's Norman? Mark Norman? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah. He's another guy who's just spitting out jokes.

And you're like, holy shit. This is real comedy. This is actual comedy. Yeah. So you study those guys. The Attell School. Yeah. Yeah.

Or Hannibal. All these guys. Lucy Kay had it. I mean, you i mean you guys yeah you guys set the set the stage but it's weird like you watch like i you know i worked with mike and like i remember because he was represented by the woman who represented me and he would the first time he opened for me uh you know and you meet him and it's sort of like where's this gonna go how's this gonna how's this gonna work yeah and the way he owns who he is on stage is fucking it's a brilliant it is you're just like to see that guy go in front of a room of people

who you know are immediately judging him like completely like what the fuck is how did why is this guy out of his mom's house his mom's basement yeah and then he just fucking unloads i mean he's fearless and he's so good a punch on every three seconds. Oh yeah. He can just ring them off. I've never seen it. That's the Attell thing, you know,

different than Louis, because Louis is sort of abstract, but I always come back to Attell. I was talking about him the other night. Who's that? Ryan Singer was out

opening for him, but to watch Attell, more than anybody else, and I'm not that kind of joke writer, but I'm sort of like, why should I even do this? You marvel at it.

Like, holy shit. It's unbelievable. It's unreal. Mike's like that, too. Yeah. I mean, it's incredible. So you guys, you got the fire under you. You're like, well, we can't fucking fake through it anymore.

Yeah, we can't just be this twin gimmick anymore. The maximizing the gimmick thing just got diminished. How about we write some jokes? Learn how to write jokes. Yeah, yeah. And Brooklyn is the place to be in terms of joke writing. It was just expert joke writing. And it's a good community.

Great community. It's not as- Great community. Yeah, the whole generation you guys come from, we were all kind of, I don't know, my generation, you never felt, well, we were all comics but you know it and there was a community but you guys all seem to you know kind of genuinely like each other i guess we did too i mean i shouldn't diminish it it just felt more competitive when i was doing it because the club system was in place so you really were you were all trying to get the same thing and it

was limited less opportunity right i think so especially with i think even with even in hollywood you know it's just yeah like if you're gonna but if you're gonna do comedy clubs if you're gonna make money as a comic at that time you had to do the clubs you couldn't just sort of like well hannibal's got that thing on monday night does it pay not doesn't matter it's like you know we were kind of like you know if you're doing you didn't do the free spots were supposed to stop after your open mic day. I see. I see.

Even if it was 25 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the idea was like, we got to get these spots where you get the money. Yeah. You know, and work the club. Got to figure out how to work a club and work for any audience, not just like-minded people. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm not being condescending. I mean, I was there at the beginning of whatever alt comedy was called. was there at the beginning of whatever alt comedy was called but for me it was just sort of like you mean i can just come here and i don't have to do jokes i can blow off steam and and think out loud that sounds good yeah you can't do that at a club no you gotta you gotta give them some jokes yeah yeah um and i think that that's good yeah but i also think there's a there's something great about also not thinking about the joke and arriving at it more in a spiritual way but I spiritual way that's interesting how do you mean because it's not machines yeah you know I mean we're not either but I

know I know but like I'm curious if that if you like being being that we're talking philosophy what is the spiritual component okay so I think you can come up with jokes in two ways you can do it like in a way that's i priority and that's just like sitting there writing it and figuring out the formal structure that's not my way that's normally not my way either i think a better way not a better way but the way that i've just grown accustomed to is like living and then arriving at the punchline organically and like like if you're telling a bit out riff it out a story if you're telling our dialectical dialect yeah yeah like a more a more experimental way of arriving well Like if you're telling a bit. Riff it out. Riff it out, a story. Or dialectically talk it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like a more experimental way of arriving. Well, yeah, because then like for me, and it took me a long time to realize this, is that once you, for whatever reason, whether you believe it or not, you're a funny person, right? So like you can write those jokes and you go up and like, I'm going to try this joke. And you do the math of it.

That's like, that's symbolic logic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. that is exactly what it is right so it's like okay there's the three there's the five there's the beat if i take that word out boom it's a math equation yep yep and then you go up and it's like well maybe i gotta that didn't quite work the way i wanted to do maybe if i but yeah and i i do that i'm doing that a little more recently just because i want to give myself a break from the existential spiritual struggle. But most of my jokes are written where I got an idea. I go up there. I start talking about the idea.

And because of the pressure, the one thing I know is I got to be funny. So I corner myself. And then you just wait for the muse. Is it going to come? And you think you do the thought. And then just out of necessity, the funny thing happens. And, is it going to come? And you think, you do the thought and then you like, just out of necessity, the funny thing happens.

And isn't that beautiful though? It's the best. It's beautiful. Because you don't know where it came from. You don't know where it came from. Like you have these jokes you do for a year

and it's like, it's beautiful. And then something else will just add on to it. And you're like, where'd that come from? Did you write that? I'm like,

no, it came. I love that part. That's the beauty of the human mind. I love it. Flow to you. That's the beauty of the human mind. I love it. It flows to you. The beauty of the human mind is being terrified and out of necessity.

It's like you're almost working with the crowd, too. You're working with the audience to come up with this sort of idea. There are moments that happen on stage where I'm like, that was the best thing's gonna happen tonight and it's never gonna happen again i know that's the best thing when you do something it's like oh it's great i'm never gonna do it i don't even know how it happened yeah yeah but i know enough to know it's not repeatable it's not repeatable right but every show is different every audience is different i mean you never really perform in front of the same group of people you've never done it No. Unless you're doing those bringer shows. Another one.

Please, not again. Are they still doing the same shit? Like, when am I on? You just look in the room and you're like, oh, fuck, how long has he been up there? Yeah, man. Yeah, I know that feeling. I was watching, last night I went to the comedy store,

and I had not stayed late in a long time. And I used to work the door there. And there's just that shift. I like going on early, so it's a nice, fresh audience. No one's too fucked up. But I stayed till midnight. And there's this shift where you've got a full room and then at some point you know just collectively for no reason like half the audience is like we're done fuck it and they just

and they're bringing up a dude yeah and then half the audience is it was Eric Griffin and I like I just saw like 40 people they get up and they're walking as he's coming to the stage and I'm like uh this is where it really happened yeah now he's got to go pluck and pull this shit together yeah and it was kind of wild because like it's that that that's the comic experience as a comic how many times you've seen that just a dude or a woman or two dudes yeah just sort of like man you know working nine people yeah yeah that's what they got yeah we. I mean, you got to work with what you got. It's great. It's great.

Comedy prepares you for life, though. You know what I mean? I think everyone, like I see it, like it's always the same. It's like you got the audience, you got the mic, it doesn't matter if it's nine people

or 50,000. Yeah, but as you get older, you know, you have these amazing things with nine people or with four people, but when you really think about it, you know, if the stage wasn't there and the mic wasn't there, you're just or with four people but when you really think about it you know if the stage wasn't there and the mic wasn't there it's just you talking to four people

people that you don't know you know random strangers but things can happen in those shows like that was the greatest show ever it's like was it a show yeah yeah what's a show we're now we're going back to our philosophy now this is philosophy what are the necessary and sufficient but it is and you remember them like you know nine people is always the number you know it's always nine yeah because there's tens too many yeah there's an odd one out there that one guy was by himself and he was there all night oh fuck you know this is like weird you go to the comedy store and like you know i'm wandering around i go right back into like i i you know i'm just shy of you know working the door yeah yeah because like the muscles they're like you know you want me to seat these guys you know

but then you start looking at people and like i had this moment because you know we live in the world we live in and you know it's, like, insanity over there, and it's just this weird... It's always been this vortex of loose people. For sure. And, like, there's just some guy sitting on a wall talking to himself, and I walk by him twice, and I'm like, ugh, what's that?

And I walk up to one of the door guys, and I'm like, who's the guy around the corner sitting on the wall talking to himself? And I knew in my mind that he was going to walk over there and come back and go, yeah, it comic it's like damn it was it was okay so as long as he's not preparing for something other than yeah maybe you never truly know man you don't know we're a strange bunch all right, so when did you get depressed? I got depressed last year.

Holy shit, you kind of waited. I waited. I waited. I was too concerned about his depression. I was like, I put mine aside. I was like, I got to focus on this. But you must have had a lot more sort of like, you must have had a bigger philosophical defense of your depression.

Yeah, of course. I built up the years. I was ready to defend it. Yeah, no, I think it was just like, coming from Brooklyn and moving to Hollywood, it was such a jarring thing for me because Hollywood's just a different place. It's a different animal.

There's nothing really like it. Yeah, it's unlike anything. And yeah, there's no real, like, you know, there's no center to it. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, there's no cultural center to it. Right. It's just, it's so infused with Hollywood.

And I love California. I don't love the business, but I love the idea of Hollywood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess so. I mean, just because, like, maybe. I do too. No, I mean. I'm trying to figure out a better way to say this. I love, I mean, we watch so much stuff.

Yeah. You have to be enamored by it. Yeah. I think it was different when it was a little more intimate. Like there was less options. Yeah. Now it's sort of so broke open where, you know, people are like, you know, I do a joke about it on stage where I say like, it's gotten to the point, I don't know if I'm old, where

someone can ask me if I've seen a show. Not only have I not heard of the show, but when they tell me where it's on, I don't know what that is. That's true that's true we had a show true tv like what's true how do i get that that's true it's like it's so splintered now but there is the idea that you know if you do your creative work and you keep your shit together that you can surface precisely right and that's still a thing, I think. Sure. And you go to meetings at big buildings and offices with people,

and you talk to them about yourself, and you pitch things, and you walk out going like, that guy's in charge of our future. Those three people are going to make the decision. Yeah. That's it. It's so weird. It's like, but I'm the comedic genius. What do they know?

What do they know? What do they know? They don't know. They don't know Lenny Bruce. I read about the book. They don't know Reese Bonoza. Yeah. They know they've got to fill their schedule with clowns that come in and they're like, what are you doing this afternoon?

Well, I had two wines, but we got these twins coming in, so that should be fun. Yeah. So you start to feel, you start to instantly realize, oh, I'm just a fucking commodity. I didn't feel like a commodity. And that's what threw you? It threw me. Oh, yeah. I've been, you know, I've been trying to move away from that for so long with the law shit.

And I wanted to, you know, do comedy for a spiritual reason. But wasn't it, the commodity didn't have any historical ghosts. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I didn't need to bring race into it. That's a good point. I didn't think about that.

That's right, but maybe that's a part of it. Maybe that was a part of it, feeling like, you know, I'm labor and I'm like, it's not about the comedy. But not only labor, but you're also up against that. You're not one black guy fighting against typecasting, but you're two black guys fighting against a different type of podcast that's right no they're nerdy stoner black guys and they're twins so it's not really about them being black no they're not doing a regular black thing no they're doing this twin thing which they can just sort of view the race into it and we can get the best of both worlds. And it's like, I just want to do comedy. Yeah, right. So how did you pull out of that?

How did you save him from the commodification? It was him. It was Keith. The existential commodification depression. Keith constantly said, look, man, we're doing this shit together. This is fun. This is Hollywood. It's still an experience. I mean, for better or for worse, it's us going through an experience.

And like I said, I tell them, like, no great story is told without obstacles. So, like, even with the obstacles, you're still living a decent story. Just embrace that. Embrace that moment. Yeah. Not think about the end result. Because it gives a shit. And then he looked at you and he went, all right.

What's that bit we're doing? All right, all right. Let's get back to the pot bit. Let's do the bit. Let's do the weed thing. Let's do the weed thing. I mean, a lot of it was actually our past trauma. We never really addressed growing up where we grew up,

and it sort of manifested itself in different ways. It went law, it went law with comedy we just didn't address the childhood trauma which was specifically what i've not grown up without a father you know growing up poor growing up with an abusive stepfather yeah growing up in you know drug adult uh the deaths like the suicides that we just honestly i just repressed it all i never even i never talked to a therapist about it i was just like fuck it i'm gonna attack law and attack whatever i do i'm gonna transcend yeah i'm gonna become successful yeah right and when you don't achieve success and you don't address your past trauma it almost as if like you tie your self-worth to what you perceive as

failure right because you are you already feel worthless because you grew up poor right you never really i i like to this day i still i'm insecure about my looks i'm insecure about like you know my intelligence my intelligence everything like i'm constantly thinking i'm not worthy yeah yeah yeah and then when you fail it's like it makes it it's an even bigger reaction because then it's sort of like of course i did of course again right just what right meant to be. Right. Victim mode. Yeah. You try to put yourself in a victim mode and you take things, I think, out of proportion.

So how did you get hip to that process of grieving or acknowledging the trauma? Kenny suggested therapy for the first time in our lives. At 30, we were like, oh, let's talk to a therapist. The two of us. Yeah, we went together. Joint therapy.

Couples therapy. And we were having issues with communication too, like fighting all the time. And I think it was just, I hate myself, but I get to see him so I hate him too. Project it right onto him. I get to punch him in the face and punch myself. It's so much easier than projecting it onto an audience or a woman.

It's like, you got a guy that looks exactly like you. It's like, I hate me you. That's exactly what it was though. Or is. I hate me you. I hate me you. That's so great. That is so great

You can have it Thank you I hate me you Yes that's exactly what it was Sweet poetry That's it So yeah it's that inner hatred that you have for yourself And then again it manifests itself

When you fail And I failed that law Cause you gotta blame somebody Gotta blame someone Hard to blame yourself. You got to blame someone. Can't blame... Hard to blame yourself. Hard to blame yourself. Hard to take the responsibility for that.

You'd rather think you're getting fucked somehow. Yeah, exactly. You become conspiratorial. You become paranoid. Yeah. And so the therapy helped? Tremendously. I mean, our therapist just told us,

we recognized... Was it a special twin therapist? She's a child... She's a children's therapist oh interesting she deals with like childhood trauma oh interesting

it was just like I never cried about my past oh good it was at that point where I was like I realized I never cried about growing up the way

I grew up yeah I finally cried for the first time about it and it was very relieving yeah

it felt like letting it go yeah did you both cry oh yeah different times same time same time for the first time in our lives we cried together we had a moment I was like and we just felt like letting it go. Yeah. Did you both cry? Oh yeah. Different times? Same time? Same time.

For the first time in our lives we cried together. We had a moment. I was like holy shit. It was great. I was like yeah holy shit we just kept in and it's like you gotta

let that stuff out. You gotta let it out somehow. That must have been an insane morning. Hey man you wanna whiz? No man I'm crying too. Oh no. I hate my step I'm crying too. Oh no.

I hate my stepdad. Me too. That's so funny, the immediate connection with someone else around it. Yeah, yeah. There was no distance, you didn't have to call the other brother. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah.

We were hugging. It was very cathartic it was nice oh that's beautiful that's beautiful do you still go or yeah we still go yeah we're meditating more we're reading more philosophy and realizing that you know everybody has problems yeah and everyone deals with their problems in certain ways but yeah you got to recognize that this is a i don't know a special time for us yeah we. We're doing this thing. We're engaging in comedy. Like, it's like,

it's amazing. And you got this special. Oh yeah, that's out. Yeah. That's why, that's why we're here. Oh yeah.

I just wanted to talk to you. No, no. But like, when did you, this is the first special, right? This is our first special.

Have you done an album before? No. No. So this is the first thing. The first thing. The first big thing. Yeah. The first big thing.

Where is it on? On Netflix. Oh, and it's on the big thing. It's on the big thing. Everyone knows what that is big thing. Where is it on? Netflix. Oh, and it's on the big thing. It's on the big thing. Everyone knows what that is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On Netflix.

Oh, you're great in Glow. Oh, thank you very much, buddy. Fantastic. I think it's cool. Yeah, it surprised everybody, me included. It's a beautiful show. It is, really. For me, it's like it's all gravy on some degree.

Somehow or another, I managed to make a life for myself here in the garage, and when I started it, I'd go of the i'm gonna be a big comedian i'm gonna be an actor i'm gonna have a show i let go all that and somehow or another out of this garage it all comes it's such a beautiful story it's a historic story it's crazy and i just wanted to try acting not as me and i felt confident you know i didn't feel like i was an actor necessarily but i knew that i'd gotten the experience to graduate school and do my own show on IFC that a few people watched.

But I knew I was comfortable. I understood the fucking thing. Dude, it's amazing. So when I entered this, I'm like, I get how it works. Now I just got to focus on being this guy and maybe it'll work. And none of it was hanging on me

other than the own challenge to me. Like, you know, I got to become this guy. The worst thing that could happen, the worst thing is that people are like, no, Marin didn't do it. They didn't pull it off. That was the worst thing. It would hurt, but it'd be like,

it ain't hanging on me. You know, if the show didn't work out, not my fault. I already got paid, baby. Look at the writers. It ain't me. Paycheck going in the mail. If I didn't do a bad job acting, it's someone else's problem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. That was a fucking cultural phenomenon. I mean, you're integral to it. Well, I'm excited. It was all, like I said, I'm open to it. I'm surprised about it.

In all honesty, and I hope to God you guys can get to this place sometime, I don't give a fuck. That's where I want to get to. That's exactly where i want to get to that's exactly right yeah i mean that's the key i think that's the key not giving a fuck yeah it's very hard to get there honestly of course and it requires something like you know obviously look i'm not louis i'm not kevin hart but you're you though yeah right that's it you're at some point that's what you realize that's what i'm looking that's what i'm working for and and it's like all I want to do is make a living. I just didn't want to be like, fuck, what happens now? But your story is very inspirational. We see it and we're like, okay, this is a guy who went up against forces that we have to go up against.

And you're persevering. That's important to us. It was a complete desperation and fear. But it doesn't seem like that. You seem likeing. Yeah. That's important to us. It was a complete desperation and fear. But it doesn't seem like that. You seem like a courageous hero. Like a prophet almost. That's where that comes from. That's where that comes from.

All those guys start completely desperate and terrified. But you didn't give up. You know what I mean? But that's the problem. It's like after a certain point, like I said to you earlier, it's like, you know, the teaching thing gets further and further away. That's right. It's like there is no giving up.

Who's going to fire you? I mean, you know what I thing gets further and further away that's right it's like there is no giving up who's gonna fire you i mean like you know what i mean like and the pride involved in it like well i could always jump off a bridge well that's it those are the options either i set these mics up in my garage or i fucking hang myself in it i guess i gotta go what option one that's great that's uh yeah that's that's where it comes from and yeah but you know i feel better yeah it's not like i didn't put the time in you know you did the work i don't think anyone's gonna say like that guy didn't deserve that no no no not at all not not at all i mean it's just like yeah you once you live within yourself and realize like okay this is my story this is my life and i'm gonna do whatever i can do to make it right make it my story and that's what you that's what you did you have no

choice yeah yeah you really have no choice that's what i believe and then then what you know depending on when it happens if it happens then you got to figure out like well what is my life now right so i i fought the fight you know i feel all right i'm doing what i want to do but uh i don't know how to have a good time. Yeah, yeah. What is a good time? Exactly. Yeah, virtue, man. I'm happy.

The virtuous life. Well, I don't know. The virtue, like, I'm going to need a little work. I got some virtuous elements, but some elements not so virtuous. You can't be too virtuous. Yeah, yeah. That's the thing. Too much virtue.

You don't want to be corrupt on all levels. But, yeah, it's an ongoing dialogue. The Aristotelian golden mean. You want to find somewhere in the middle. You try to help. You try not to hurt people. You try to fight the good fight in a way that you're capable of. You try to make sure that some part of you is honestly doing it for the right reasons and not for selfish reasons.

Without a doubt. And I think that, I mean, you are living a virtuous life. I'm doing all right. You're doing a great thing. I think you have to really sit back and marvel in it. I do sometimes. You should. But I gotta be careful because one of my virtuous liabilities,

one of the liabilities to my virtue is that you know if if i start feeling too good about me okay and then i'm gonna start being like who the fuck are you guys yeah that's fair yeah i mean but that that's fair so you guys are doing a twin thing yeah great i get it that's just what we need yeah more twin shit no i don't want to be that guy again that's fair but i feel like you can never become that person again. I don't think so. You've evolved to a point where you're, at least from my perspective, it seems as if you're more at ease. Well, I think that it reengaged me with an empathy that I had shut down out of my own sort of spite. Yeah. that like, you know, out of my own entitlement, out of my own self-pity, if you're consumed with self-pity or angry that your life did not turn out the way you want,

it's very difficult to be empathetic. Yeah, I totally agree. Because, you know, you're sort of this, like, you know, how are you going to put yourself in the shoes of somebody else when you feel like you've been fucked? Absolutely. Like everybody should put themselves in your shoes. Yeah. I got problems.

Yeah. And then that can lead to real problems. Yeah. You're so me-oriented. Right. Oh, yeah. It's impossible to think about other people. Yeah.

And I think this thing has helped on a lot of levels, spiritual, philosophical, moral, emotional. But I'm glad you guys got this special. So are you happy with it? No, I don't think anyone is happy with their... I'm happy that I was able to do it. I'm privileged to have been able to do a special. But I'm always like, it has to be better.

I have to do better than this. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. But I'm hard on myself. I always want to do better than this. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy, but I'm hard on myself. I always want to do better. I think it's when you look at, when I think about my comedy career, I think about it holistically.

Obviously, this is the first special, and presumably, if you do another one, it should get better. But it's not about that. It's about being able to work with your brother and put comedy out there. Some people watch it and laugh, and it makes their day. It is a beautiful, yeah. It's just a beautiful experience. Yeah, and that's true and comedy out there yeah you know some people watch it and laugh and it makes their day it is a beautiful yeah it's just a beautiful yeah and that's it yeah so you gotta you gotta fight that commodity thing because the weird thing is is that we don't live in a time where like it like everything is in the balance you know it's not make or break yeah and there's

a lot of specials to the point where it's like how special are they really yeah and and it's just that like if you can appreciate that you did that thing and it's good and you're happy, like not necessarily happy with it, but you did the best you could. Sure. And where'd you tape it? We taped it in Brooklyn. Oh, great.

It's special because it's special to me. Yeah, it's special to me. I don't need it to be special to everyone. I think people are going to like it. And what's it called? On drugs. On drugs, yeah. But it's not just about drugs.

Yeah, it's catchy. You know how philosophers have it on. Sure, sure. Oh, I get it. It's that kind of on. It's that kind of on. Yeah, that might be one of those decisions that, in retrospect, you're going to be like, I don't think people got that.

I'm sure most people don't. That's all I have to say. It's about, you know, it's like On Liberty by John Stuart Mill. Right, right. On drugs. Yeah, yeah. I've made those kind of decisions. Philosophers.

Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, this is clever. Yeah, yeah. Lost on everyone. Yeah, yeah, I've made those kind of decisions. Philosophic music. Yeah, yeah, like, you know, this is clever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lost on everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one gets it. No one gets it. But, yeah, the comedy's so personal.

Like, it's like, if you, sometimes we think about everything else but that personal relationship with the comedy. Yeah, yeah. And I like to just keep it there. Yeah. Well, it feels like your collective heart's in the right place.

No, I think so. And I'm glad you guys leveled off. Yeah. And this was great. I had heart's in the right place. I think so. I hope so. You guys leveled off. Yeah. This was great. I had a great time talking to you. Thank you. Okay. That was fun.

Philosophical. A lot of stuff. I enjoyed that. I get a kick out of those guys. I get a kick out of those Lucas brothers. What can I tell you? I do. Go to WTFpod for all your WTFpod needs.

Get on the mailing list. Pre-order the book. It's there. And why don't I play... I'm going to play guitar with that new... That Keeley engineering pedal I got. That came with the extra wire thing that I don't think I'm going to use. Unless someone comes over here and tells me what the fuck it's for.

Alright, so I'm just going to use unless someone comes over here and tells me what the fuck it's for all right so i'm just gonna i don't know what this thing does it sounds nice it's a it's a double tracker a 30 ms double tracker from keely i don't know i don't know and i'm not using the extra wire i know that but that. But it sounds pretty. It sounds pretty. Thank you. Boomer lives! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.