WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 837 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar / Phil Stutz

Episode Date: August 13, 2017

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is one of the greatest basketball players ever, but he's happy if you know him as a writer, a cultural critic, an activist, a chronicler of African-American history, an actor, an ambassador, and a coin collector. Kareem and Marc talk about all those things and how life in 2017 America is similar to life when Kareem was a young man. Plus, therapist Phil Stutz returns to the garage to talk about the follow up to his enormously successful and helpful book The Tools. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking

ears what the fuck topians what the fuck tuckians what the fuck is happening what is happening i'm mark maron and this is wtf my podcast welcome to it how's your monday are you okay i'm really i'm recording this a couple days early for a couple various reasons but i'm happy to be here we have a uh we have a great show today um kareem abdul-jabbar is here a little later in the show to talk about everything but basketball. Dr. Phil Stutz, I'm going to talk to him a little bit. He's got a new book out. He was on episode 454 back in 2013 after Hank Azaria recommended him, actually. And people told us how helpful that episode was for them.

His new book is called Coming Alive. He wrote it with Barry Michaels again. Comes out August 22nd. He'll be here in just a little while. What are we going to do? What are we going to do, America? Are we going to keep it together? There is a need for relief in a relentlessly depressing and frightening cultural

environment and political environment i mean whatever what happened over the weekend in charlottesville is is disconcerting just uh the the you saw a lot of representatives of the army of unfuckable hate nerds and uh militia types in varying degrees of armor and outfits. Some oddly more ridiculous than I think they intended. And there was some just flat out old school racists out there. And the counter protests were powerful and courageous and trying to hold the line maintain the balance make people understand there are people out there fighting this racism and intolerance and violence and i think that the difficult thing for most people now you granted that again this is a minority of people is that you know we have a

leader a president that refuses to uh to really put his foot down in a definitive way when it comes to this type of behavior whether it be blowing up mosques or a kkk nazi rally he'll i don't think he's mentioned anything about the uh american terrorist attack on the mosques but you know let's just make clear that you know nazis in the clan are not not good that'd be nice to hear from the president but he will not do it in those definitive terms unlike many members of congress many senators past presidents because the bottom line is uh he doesn't want to come right out and say that nazis are bad because he doesn't want to alienate his base that's i mean that's where we're at as a country the president does not want to condemn Nazis or the KKK because he just doesn't want to alienate his base.

It's a scary business, and there's a lot of things that are untethered and chaotic and frightening about leadership at this point in time. and sadly but also uh in in a good way you you will be called upon as an american to stand up for this at some point it's easy to here i am in california and there's part of me that's sort of like well it's not down the street from me it's not in this state it doesn't directly involve me but it directly involves all of us we are americans and it really is going to come down to what america do you want to live in and what can you rationalize the rationalizing question is a big question because you know most people in america are like well you know look i'm okay doesn't affect me that much believe me i'll I'll do a little Trumpism there. Believe me. All of this affects all of us.

We are all Americans. We have different ideas. We have different opinions. And we have different beliefs about democracy. And those will and are being called into question and are worth fighting for. So it's on all of us to do something. You know, you might have to do more than you're comfortable with. I'm always grateful that people are out there fighting, you know,

the counter protesters and people in the government and people speaking out. We're going to have to do that. Continue doing it. There's no, you can't really put your blinders on i i can't even the the amount that i do it now the just even the small amount that i try to detach uh is causing me chest pains and headaches and queasiness dark times scary times but uh they're they're the fabric of america is still woven it's not completely unraveled and look you know i you know i have no doubt that uh you know if it is happening and if it does happen that americans will sort of like slowly evolve into

accepting authoritarianism because they feel like they have no choice and you know the one benefit of that is that look when america will be the best authoritarian state on this planet because when americans put their minds to it they can do anything so So America will certainly be just a barometer of excellence and authoritarianism if enough people don't think what is happening in this country now involves them or affects them. You don't want to get down the line where you're like, yeah, I mean, my life's not that much different. I mean, look, there weren't that many Mexicans here or before they were all, you know, told to leave, but it didn't really affect my life that much. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I guess, I guess, you know, a lot of black people are, you know, there's not a lot in my neighborhood, so I don't, I don't really know what's going on with them. Yeah, the, you know, before the Muslims were all kicked out of the country, I didn't really know any, you know, so like, so really, you know, it's justs were all kicked out of the country i didn't really know any you know so like so really you know it's just like i still just go you know i go get coffee and i go over to where i work and i i don't know it's just not that much different that's what the sound of an authoritarian america is yeah i guess some people got hurt down there but you know i don't know i you know didn't it looked bad but i think those people that were protesting were you know i mean they seemed

really out of line and angry i mean isn't there another way to handle it i mean they looked you know they just it was terrible but like i don't know why they were causing trouble. I love this country. And yeah, it's just sad that so many people are so angry. They should just relax. That's what authoritarian America sounds like. Or like, no, I don't really vote, and I don don't vote and I don't really pay attention to the news. And like, you know, politics is so boring.

It's so boring. That's what authoritarian America, that's how it happens. So, oh, let me tell you, I had another weird dream. This one was really wild. I was on some, all I remember is I was on like some sort of bungee cord, but it wasn't hanging from something. It was sort of throwing me back and forth. You know what I mean? Like it was anchored somewhere and I was bouncing from one thing.

I'd go up and then I'd go down and then I'd go over. And every time I would, it would sort of, the rubber band or the bungee would go all the way to the end where I'd have that moment where you stop before you snap back. My surroundings would be in black and white and it would be sort of, you know, elements of my past and then it'd go to another area where it'd be, I'd just be bouncing into these sort of weird black and white vignettes of my past and it just kept going like that.

And for some reason, Jon Hamm was running the controls of the back in time bungee ride in black and white. That was a Jon Hamm operated carnival concession. What do you make of that, dream analysts? I got some pretty good analysis from my last one. I didn't read that. Maybe I'll read it on Thursday. So Dr. Phil Stutz, dream analysts i got some pretty good analysis from my last one i didn't read that maybe i'll

read it on uh maybe on thursday so dr phil stutz it's always nice to see him uh his new book is called coming alive he wrote it with barry michaels it comes out august 22nd it approaches self-help in a way that maybe will have a little more staying power and we talk about you know those those type of books in general and the effect that they do have. But he's a bright guy and it's always good to talk to him. We generally have good conversations

and he makes me feel smart sometimes. Both times he's been here. So this is me talking to Phil. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need.

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a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. That's T's and C's apply. Dots. You usually wake up earlier or later?

You know, I'm 70 years old, so I wake up at like 6, but I can't stay up. Why do we wake up earlier as we get older? It seems like my theory is that we innately know we're running out of time. That makes perfect sense. That's excellent. I think that's right. You think that's right. Oh, God. Everybody, you know, from our last conversation, the longer one,

the tools has helped a lot of people, the book, The Tools. And I hear a lot about it. Did you hear a lot about it? the tools has helped a lot of people to book the tools and i hear a lot about it did you hear a lot about it uh i it's funny i hear more about it now than i than i did when the book came out oh really yeah it sort of picked up it's it picked up yeah you know why the the audience for this stuff most of the time they're not going to buy the book unless they're in trouble so you know you i mean yeah it's a life preserve life preserver you know time's on our side yeah right yeah right right people are eventually going to get into a problem

yeah that's that's correct you know it's like health care eventually it's going to hit you um and then you know there's a financial aspect so if if we can you know a book that you buy for 20 bucks or whatever it is if that can help you that's fantastic oh yeah absolutely but people i people love the book and then i get this new book from you two same guys right phil stutz you barry michaels the other guy yeah the other guy that you write with and we talked about him but uh this is uh called coming alive four tools to defeat your inner enemy ignite creative expression and unleash This is called Coming Alive, Four Tools to Defeat Your Inner Enemy, Ignite Creative Expression, and Unleash Your Soul's Potential.

Yeah. That's a- You think we're overstating it? I tell you. You got to sell the covers to cover. You know what I mean? If you can deliver on all that, then great. Oh, wait.

We have to deliver on it, too? No. Yeah. You can't just put that on the cover and then that's it. All right. Well, look, I got problems. Yeah, it's not obvious, but go ahead. Maybe we can help apply some of this stuff.

Because I know, like, these books for me, you know, I read them, I get a little bit out of them, and then, like, I don't finish them, and then I feel like I get a, you know, I read halfway through it, and I'm like, I got enough. I think I, you know what I mean? How much of this do I feel like I get a you know I read a halfway through it and I've got enough I think I you know what I mean how much of this do I need I get the idea and I move on yeah and you have your own tv show now right I do so what else could you possibly need well you know it's funny that you say that doc because uh you know what I I learned is that years ago I always saw like well if money doesn't make you happy, I'd like to figure that. I'd like to find that out firsthand. And now that I earn a pretty good living, it's definitely changed some fears and some insecurities that put those to rest.

But the fundamental stuff, it doesn't change that much. No, in fact, that's actually the premise of what we do, in other words. And we have some credibility because we treat all these people that are very successful as stars or whatever. And there's what we call a realm of illusion, which is somebody tells himself, if I only get this, my own show, if I only get that, a certain female he wants to marry, whatever it is, that then life will become easy yeah and what obviously that never happens never never no in all your experience no one ever came in and said hey you know what i'm done i got what i wanted thank you no no one's ever said that if

they do i if it was true i would try to talk them out of it. It's bad cash flow for us. So we don't really want it anyway. Yeah. No, but seriously, that's why a lot of guys will become famous. They'll blow up suddenly. Then they get into drugs and alcohol. Sometimes they even kill themselves. It's like I did my share. I did what I was supposed to do, which is become famous, become very successful.

And life still has the same problems. What the fuck you know i'm being chipped sometimes more problems yeah sometimes or certainly problems you didn't have before yeah like you know what to do with all that money and then how to manage all the shit you bought with it yeah yeah that's uh that's really overwhelming so how is this different than the other book well okay here's the difference the other book which basically was four very common or the four most common problems people have we address them kind of one by one but what we didn't have in the first book is a cohesiveness uh-huh so there was nothing that tied the thing together

and people would ask us what you know why those tools um is there more to this? And the main thing people would say is, I like the book. I like what you said in it. But my effort fizzled out. Fizzled out? Yeah. Like they applied the tools, and then after a year, they couldn't do it anymore. Yeah, and a year would be a long time. A lot of times, they'll do it for three months, two months.

They get excited. I'm an enthusiast. my partner's an enthusiast so sometimes you get freud called this a flight into health did you ever hear of that sure i'm i do it all the time i'm gonna after this interview i'm gonna go work out i'm in one of my flights into health right now okay is that what it is well what a flight into health doesn't last that's why he called it a flight into health he made certain other mistakes we'll talk about Freud did yeah he's fallen a bit out of favor but he did have some good ideas he was a solid thinker yes he yeah he has he was had some brilliant ideas in fact which connects what we're talking about the see it seems like well these tools work but I stop using them, I'm lazy,

which is some truth in that. But what I discovered when I started this is there's a counterforce, and I call the counterforce Part X. Yeah. Now, I just call it Part X because it's- The thing that stops you from following truth. Yes. Or sticking with it.

That's correct. So when I was a young shrink, needless to say, I was somewhat rebellious and defiant. But I was also very enthusiastic. So I was starting up my practice. I was maybe 30 years old. And I was helping a lot of people. A lot of times their symptoms would go away temporarily. But after three months, six months, whatever,

it would all come crashing back on them. Not only would it come back, it was worse than when they started. And there was another problem, which is they lost faith in the whole process. Sure, not only did it not work, but clearly it's that thing's fault. It's that, yes.

Yeah. So it's your secret enemy working behind the scenes, so to speak. Sure. Always, yeah, it's like they say in the recovery racket that when you're not drinking, your disease is doing push-ups. Yeah, I heard that one. But, yeah, I mean, there is the issue of self-sabotage and sort of like, you know, I mean, Mike, you know, I guess a broader question is, is that, you know, you talk to a lot of people. These are practical things that people can do with a context.

But some of this stuff is pretty deeply wired, right? But you believe that, you know, through a certain amount of discipline that maybe you can reroute neural pathways or change your behavior for good. But it's a battle. It's a struggle. Yeah, it has to be a struggle. You know, lately what I read

is not so much psychiatric books. I like to read books by ex-military guys and people that are training professional athletes at a high level. And their whole thing is, what do they call it? Something brain retraining. Yeah.

Sure. More or less. Yeah. And the one I'm most interested in was Stephen Curry. You know who he is, right? Stephen Curry is like a mediocre athlete who's the best player in the NBA. Okay. He's unbelievable. He's the best shooter ever in the history of basketball. Mediocre athlete, though, is the best player in the NBA. Okay. He's unbelievable.

He's the best shooter ever in the history of basketball. Mediocre athlete, though, is the key, right? Yeah. I mean, for us, he would look like a god, obviously. Right, right. But in the NBA, he's mediocre. So I got into it. I said, how did this guy get so good?

And I looked, I, what do you call it, Googled it. Yeah. And there was a clip that came out of YouTube with his training program. And here's what he would do. There would be a big board, a big wooden board. And it would have like six or seven lights on the board. And each light corresponded to a specific move. Like a purple light would go on here.

He'd fake to the right. Right. Crossover. And then another light would go on. He'd back up a few steps. It doesn't matter. And then another light would go on. He'd back up a few steps.

It doesn't matter. But the change in colors from one of these lights to another was faster than you could think. Right. So to follow the lights, you had to give up complete thinking. But you knew what was connected to the light. You knew the move that you had to do. Yeah, well, at the beginning, you might even forget what the move was. Right, but eventually it becomes habit. It becomes habit.

Reflex. Yes, and training a reflex faster than you can think is the secret of what we do. And if you do that religiously, it takes a long time. You can change these basic patterns. I believe that's true, but I know that what about all that time in between reflexive action what about like oh so you do the things you choose you know you you get the pattern in place but one day you're just going to be sitting there you know with a piece of cake going like fuck this is terrible yeah 100 percent what depends on the cake what happens at that moment though i mean that's the trickiest moment okay good

excellent point you should do this for a living i try here's the thing there are a million tiny moments throughout the day when this part x is attacking you and you don't even know it. Oh, yeah, the bad guy inside. Yeah, and the idea is the biggest changes in life, the strongest forces come in through the smallest things. Yeah. So we try, you know, like, you know about John Wooden and all? John Wooden, the coach? Yeah, the coach.

I kind of know him. So anyway, he was a freak on that. There was like a certain way to tie your shoelaces yeah even a certain way to put your socks on and it wasn't that any specific instructions he was giving them was so brilliant it was the idea that you there was a right way to do things even the smallest things and also it's ritualized yes and ritualize it so anyway the the tools um are designed to go into the very small things. Right. They can also deal with the big things, but if you want to, go ahead.

No, I see what you're saying. So in between, when you're most vulnerable to factor X, is that what you called it? I call it part X. Part X coming at you from the inside, you have a, little things you can do to either distract him or you. Yes. From ruining your life. That's correct. So, now, let's break it down here because, like, I like systems.

Now, here's, maybe we can apply it to what I need to do. Does this help with media problems? Yeah, I guess to the extent, I mean, I'm a walking example of it. Yeah. Well, you have an illness that you find every day. Yes, every day. And you seem like, I haven't seen you in a couple of years, you seem great. Yeah, praise the Lord.

I have Parkinson's and it hasn't deteriorated at all. And a shout out to Josh,osh um to jeff bronstein my neurologist yeah fantastic he's doing a good job yeah great job yeah it's you know it's an art to medicating somebody oh sure it is yeah you know i'm uh yeah unfortunately the canvas is you and sometimes you got to repaint a little bit you know yeah try stuff out uh but you're on a good combination i'm on a good combination my whole thing is energy um one of the things we deal with in here is people think they have a basic energy level and it can't be changed so when they tire out they feel well that's it you know go to sleep right watch tv yeah you know smoke a joke whatever it is but our the conceit of

that part of the book is you can increase your energy level it's possible to increase it when i was a baby shrinking or just learning yeah nobody ever mentioned energy as a factor in treating patients or how they ended up but what i was seeing was the people with the highest energy for the most part were the most successful yeah and for the most part they seeing was the people with the highest energy, for the most part, were the most successful. Yeah. And for the most part, the ones with the highest energy were the hardest ones to stop. Right. Even if it was a failure, et cetera.

Right. And because I don't have much energy because of the illness, I become very curious about it. Now, what did you learn about that? Well, I mean, I imagine when you were a baby shrink, no one was reading uh wilhelm reich orgone energy come on get in the box fuel up do you remember that guy yeah how do you know about that what do you mean i'm a broad-minded guy you know there was a comic that was very into that oh yeah back in the day yeah in new york i can't remember the guy did he have a box uh he did yeah he had an all-around box good for him yeah now you know if you get one you just put your head in it now yeah that's all you don't need to get all in

i'm impressed that you knew about that yeah i'm sort of fascinated with that guy so what'd you learn about energy if that is that where you started is that when when you were thinking about this book with energy uh well the book we we took four major things that we felt um weaken the life force of somebody and and these are things in general people don't think they can change or they can work with so one was exhaustion which is what we're talking about one was addictions and impulsive behaviors. One was hurt feelings and feeling like you're a victim. Yeah.

And one was demoralization, despondency, quitting. Oh, okay, okay. Okay, and we felt, those are areas where Part X tries to fuck you up. It tries to enter your life. That's the strategy of Part X. That's its strategy. That's how they get in. Yeah, so these are like the four ways that you get in. Those are pretty good.

Those seem solid. Yeah. So all of a sudden now you have a framework through which people can identify how Part X is getting them. Yes. Yeah. So here's the secret of that. Part X doesn't want you to know it exists, and it particularly doesn't want you to know

that it's acting on you right now. Yeah, but sometimes when you realize it is, it wants you to believe that that's your true self. Exactly. You're smart, man. That's exactly 100% right. Right. So, Part X is an imposter.

Right. It tries to push you out and take over. And it does it so many times, there's a familiarity to it. Yeah. And the familiarity is kind of persuasive. Even though if you look back, it's nuts. Right. Because the satisfaction that can come when part x is being satisfied uh feels like strength but it isn't that's correct right that's correct i'm i'm very impressed so far do you have do you have a strong part x oh yeah yeah a very living uh and breathing relationship with, but I've had some success with it.

You know, it's a, the mixture between accepting it, compartmentalizing, and trying to stay in those things that you're saying, right? Like the list that you had outside of addiction, but insisting that you're a failure or you're feeling embarrassed or demoralized, those are natural human experiences, right? Yes. So instead of fighting against them, you have to process them. Yes, that's exactly right. you have to process them. Yes, you have to. Yes, that's exactly right. You have to process.

All right. So once you identify these four things, what happens in the book? Well, the first part of the book is when you let's say these are four expressions of part X. Yeah. So the first thing you want to do is learn to identify it. Not when you're reading a book, you know, not when you're talking to your friends. Right. Right in the moment.

Right. OK. Oh, that's right. So once you identify the one that's in you, how's it popping up in your life every second? Yes. And that's specific to each person. Oh, that's a good moment when you realize that. Yeah, it gives the person power.

See, the other thing that happens when you realize that is you're like pushing Partardex away from you. So at that point, you get, for some people, the first inkling of freedom that they've ever had in their lives. Yeah, yeah. Because they see the enemy out there. Did you ever read Pogo? Did you ever read that? Pogo, the cartoon?

Yeah. Yeah, maybe when I was a kid. Well, there's a famous thing. Pogo said, we have met the enemy. And he is us. And he is us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And kid. Well, there's a famous thing, Pogo said, we have met the enemy. And he is us. And he is us, yeah. And that's a pretty prescient idea. Anyway, so, and we tell people, even if you don't know what to do about it,

if you can identify it and label it right in the moment, you're ready on your way to gaining some sort of freedom. Well, yeah, but then how do you address uh you know negotiating with part x like you know what i mean it's sort of like look here's where i'm at you know me like i'm i'm addicted to these nicotine lozenges and i have been for years you know now because you know i don't take any other medication and the world seems to be uh uh you know crumbling my anxiety is extremely high my My dread is high. My fear of death is high. My fear of

catastrophic death is high. So now I'm ingesting probably more nicotine than I ever have and I'm drinking a lot of coffee and I'm fucking nauseous all the time. So now I know that I should get off of the things and I know that I've gotten off everything else but this part X with this

negotiation where it's sort of like, well, what am I going to do without those? Right, right. I don't think I can help you. Wow. Geez. That was a joke. You're supposed to tell me, get the book. It's all in the book.

Well, what the book has besides the four tools and the four expressions of part x is it has a it has a philosophy that says the following this probably will only work for a while it'll only work temporarily it'll only work halfway but if you keep advancing and doing what we what we want what we're asking you to do particularly in those blacker moments we call them holes in the hole, you will find that your overall view of who you are and of the world will change. It just takes a tremendous amount of work. Here's the situation. Incremental.

Yeah, Pardex will never stop attacking you, never. If you live till 102, it's still going to attack you. But there's something good in it. And if your parents are alive, then it has support. I'm not going to touch that one. This is a thousand-foot poem. It's an interesting idea. So, okay, what was I saying? You were saying that.

Oh, yeah. So the fact that it won't stop attacking you, the good news is if you're willing to work consistently against it using the tools, not only can you overcome some of these symptoms, but your self-identification changes. And a lot of times you'll discover abilities that you didn't know you had. Sure. So it's not just getting rid of the symptoms. There's an expansion. Now, here's what Part X wants.

It works on the principle of impossibility. And what that means is it gives you a symptom. Let's say you're afraid of flying. It makes sure you can't get over the symptom, right? So there's some crippling thing going on. And it wants to defeat you so badly that you feel this is impossible to change. It may be a little bit what you have. Yeah, yeah.

What is it you use? Nicotine lozenge. Oh, well, all right. It's an addiction. But yeah, no, but you're right. But, you know, it will manipulate you and charm you into thinking that, you know, like it's got the better way. Exactly. It's either seducing you or threatening you,

or both at the same time. Right. So, but anyway, that sense of impossibility, I can't change, spreads out all over the place. Yeah. And eventually you can't change anything. Right. And that's its real goal.

Paralyze you. Yeah. In other words, if you want to look at it on a spiritual basis, you know about 12-step really well. There's an evolution that human beings can only, in other words, we're all capable of much more than we do. When we fight off these X attacks, is what we call them, we start to get this sense of possibility. We start to get this sense of, hey, you have more potential than you think you have. And that's where the battle is.

Part X wants you to think bullshit. I'm lucky I'm even where I am. Well, part of that has to be you have to acknowledge and maybe slightly celebrate your little victories over this thing. Yes, 100%. Because a lot of times they happen incrementally and they're small things. It's easy if you have a strong Part X to dismiss any success. Yes. Because that's part of the over...

That's an over... That's a long... What do you call it the the long game tactic of part x is to diminish anything you've ever accomplished yeah did you study this book before no you're doing that that's exactly right yeah so all of those are on go under the heading of impossibility and crippling the person yeah so it is a fight it's it's like a war you know i was uh because you're a shrink you're sitting in a in an office all day you know people think it's a very sedentary kind of passive existence type thing um but for me it's never been

like that at all for me it's been a war. And once I identified this X thing working, I felt- Within you or your patients? At first, it was my patients. I didn't identify in me until much later. Right. Because I thought I was perfect. Yeah. Finally, I said, wait a minute.

Yeah. I'm the one who invented these things, and I'm not taking advantage of them. Am I stupid? Then I started to work harder. Yeah. and I'm not taking advantage of them. Am I stupid? Then I started to work harder. The best person I've ever seen using the tools is my partner. He's unbelievably disciplined. Yeah. And look, he's probably 60.

I don't know what he is, but I can see the change over a 20-year period in him. These are spiritual ideas, really. Yes, they are. Yeah. Yeah. The point, look, both of us agree, whether we're right or wrong, with this idea that there's what we call the gap, which means you can go to a shrink,

you can work hard, you can understand where your problems come from. Sure, intellectually. Yeah, you have all that, which is good, but they have no way to close the gap through action. In other words, now what do we do? Because I haven't found that understanding per se will change somebody. Sometimes it does, but mostly it's not enough. No, sometimes it enforces their ability to bullshit. Yes. Then you can just all of a sudden you become your own therapist.

So you sit there. I'm sure you must sit there with clients all the time where they're like, oh, right. I get it. And then next week they come in and say, I did the thing again. Right. You know, but I understand it. 100%. And then they keep doing it.

Yeah, the good thing about me is that pisses me off. Right. So I'm not just going to accept that. You know, I think that the hardest thing for people who have these things is that, you know, once you start to see the patterns of these things hurt in your life, which is, I think, what this book will help you do, is that, you know, you start to realize a couple of things. Like, well, am I going to let it keep happening?

And life isn't that long. And, like, there's no sort of overarching thing here in the book that's going to say this is going to make you a new person. But for fuck's sake, you know, you've got to get a little relief from these patterns so you can get something out of life yes yes and one of the greatest feelings for somebody is being able to do something they thought was impossible even if it's a small thing yeah it changes everything no it does it because it's like uh it's like for me well there's of examples. Like, you know, one of the things is you got to be careful with those moments is not to beat yourself up for not doing it sooner. Yes, that's correct.

And that happens all the time. But that's a primary tool of the part X. Yeah. Is that like, you know, you finally do it and it goes, you fucking asshole. Huh? At 50, you do it. Yeah. You got nothing.

You were excellent at portraying Part X. I'm going to give it to you. Awesome. I gave you Part X for the movie? I'm the guy. Yeah, and I'm going to remember that. Yeah, that's correct, 100%. So what can people like you?

You know, I think what you're trying to, you know, connect with in the book through these tools is that life is hard. You know, life is, there is suffering, but, you know, and, you know, there are challenges always, obviously. Like, you know, you have health challenges, other people do. People have, there's no end to it. Yes. But, and there's no way you can avoid it. Correct. And there's some part of you that has to embrace these challenges and this suffering, you know, in order to accept it so you can, you know, have a proactive life. Yeah, look, everybody says, all the shrinks that write these books say, life has to have meaning.

And you have to look for it and you have to find the meaning. Which is true. But for me to really feel life is meaningful, I have to close that gap. In other words, I have to use a tool in adversity, counteract the adversity, or even better, turn the adversity into more strength. I have to feel that. If you feel that, you get a sense of meaning. And not only that, the worst things that happen then can give you the most sense of meaning if you fight back against them.

Well, yeah, you did a noble thing, and I'm glad you got the new book out. Thank you. And I'm happy to see you. I'm glad you're doing okay. Yeah, thanks for having me. And at a probably time, I'll come back and check on you again. Maybe I'll just come to your office.

Okay. Thanks, Doc. Just show up. Thank you. That was me and Dr. Phil Stutz, his new book coming alive that he wrote with Barry Michaels, out August 22nd. So Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, here's the thing about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,

and many of you know this about me, is that I'm not a big sports fan. I'm a pretty physical guy, but I'm not a big sports fan, and I don't know a lot about sports. But I did know, of course, that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is one of the greatest basketball players that ever lived, and I felt a little ill-prepared to talk to him heading into it, but they wanted him to come on the show. He wanted to come on the show.

So I was like, yeah, I'll talk to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And fortunately for me, did not want to talk about basketball, really. So that worked out. This is me and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. His book, Coach Wooden and Me, Our 50-Year Friendship On and Off the Court, is now available. The graphic novel of his detective novel, Mycroft Holmes, comes out next month, September 19th. You can pre-order it now. So this is me engaging in conversation with the great Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Yeah, it's been like I had a bad morning, and maybe you can relate to it.

I just found out that the cartridge on my record player is broken. Oh, no. And someone just gave me a Wayne Shorter record that I'd never heard before. Which one? I don't know. It was just sitting in there. Because I'm a Lee Morgan freak right now. Yeah.

I'm just getting into Lee Morgan. So it's one with Lee Morgan on there playing with Wayne, but not with the Jazz Messengers. Okay. And I went to play it, and I guess the woman that cleans my house said... Oh, no. It's just... Now you've got to go down. Yeah, now do you still play records?

No. No more? No, I went CD because I didn't like the fidelity. Of the records? Of the records? Of the records. The CD was clean. Yeah. To play a record, it sounds like somebody's frying an egg in the background.

But you've got to get clean records. Get new ones. I know. But they don't stay new. Right. You don't buy into the idea that the sound of analog is richer and softer. It might be. Yeah.

You might have a point there. but I like the CD sound. You can get it up loud, and you can hear it in depth. Yeah, it's all right there. That's important. Yeah. Oh, yeah. A little more nuance to the records. Maybe I'm just part of a fad.

I don't know. Well, and it was fun. Sure. Somebody explained this to me, and it really bothered me that that my kids never had records right that they don't know what an lp is right yeah just so much that of the technology that we had when i was a kid is just it's totally irrelevant and and gone it's gone and it And it was something, there was something tactile. There was something about your connections, even books. Yeah.

You know, like I got your book right here. You can hold the book. And I guess they still sell books, but most people, they'll listen to books. They'll read them on the Kindle. But I still like to hold the book. Yeah, it's something about the relationship with it, too. And you grew up with records. Wasn't your dad a musician? Yeah. book yeah it's something about the the relationship with it and you you grew up with records you wasn't

your dad a musician yeah and you know i i so much of what i learned about jazz i read on the album covers yeah yeah you know nat hentoff writing about all those dudes yeah like and the village voice he used to do some of those whiner notes oh yeah for the village voice but you know on on all the blue note albums they had extensive notes and stuff. Yeah. And there was a real good DJ in New York. His name was Ed Beach. Yeah.

He always really did a lot of research on every record he played. You know, he could tell you all, you know, the sequence of the solos. Yeah, yeah. You know, what it was all about. Do you got a handle on that stuff? I mean, do you, like, because, like, I'm just now getting, like, I always sort of listen to jazz, but not as attentively because I was afraid of the rabbit hole

because it'd go on forever. Like, you know, there's so much. But the thing of it is, you just have to go with what you like. Exactly. You don't have to finish everything. You don't have to. You know, and if you don't want to spend any time

listening to Tommy Dorsey or Kenny G or anybody you don't want to listen to, you don't want to spend any time listening to tommy dorsey or right or kenny g or you know anybody you don't want to listen to you don't don't have to no no kenny g no kenny g i uh i was up in uh do you know who ben sidren is the piano player yes he's been on this show you know like uh his really yeah his son sort of pestered me and said you you got to talk to my dad he's a good cat he is he's a great guy right so uh but the funny thing was is that um i went up to madison to do a comedy show and and ben reached out to me said yeah i live here come hang out let's have lunch so we had lunch then we go madison wisconsin yeah okay that's where he lives and you know i went over to his house and he's got all those blue note records man like you know some dude he knew in japan when they started

reissuing him like gave him like he's got all of the blue note records all covered yeah on the on the wall and i was looking for this uh tina brooks record with uh with lee morgan on it minor move it's hard to find and he's going through his stuff and he turned me on to hard bop stuff i didn't realize that there was a subcategory of hard bop so he's telling me the predecessors and whatnot he's got two of those tina brooks records and goes take one and i'm like this is like the best trip you can get all of Hard Bop. So he's telling me the predecessors and whatnot. He's got two of those Tina Brooks records. He goes, take one. And I'm like, this is like the best trip ever. You can get all of that over in Japan.

Right. You can go to one store and get all of that. All the Blue Note stuff. Yes. And they got t-shirts and stuff. I remember the Unity t-shirt. I couldn't get it quick enough. They sold out one of my favorite albums of all time.

They were incredible, just the symbiosis of what they could create. It was amazing. When you were a kid, where'd you grow up? Manhattan. Right in the city? Yeah. So was your dad a working musician? Yeah, but he wasn't the soloist that J.J. Johnson was.

So he couldn't get a job on the front line. And, you know, he's a good section man. Yeah. What was his instrument? Trombone. Oh, yeah. If he had had his desire, he would have played in Count Basie's band.

So you grew up with that. Yeah, I did. And, you know, I knew Thelonious. I used to babysit for Ben Reilly. Yeah. So you know that was Thelonious's drummer. Yeah. And you know when Ben's wife would come home I could go down to the Vanguard. They'd usually be playing down there and I could catch Monk at the Vanguard. I must have seen him perform about 30 times really high school and college what was he like as a dude I mean could you talk to him no you couldn't talk to him he was somewhere else right most of the time he spent somewhere else he talked to you know

like he'd come back and talk to you and then he'd yeah go off into wherever he was. But just like check in and then out? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he was a musical genius, no question about it. No doubt. Was there a point there where you wanted to pursue music over ball? Yeah, but that ended up being in high school when I had to make a choice. Yeah.

And I had already made the commitment to basketball, and I was much better at basketball than I was at music. Did you play something? I should have. I could have. If I had practiced the piano, I would have had it down, and I could have stayed with it. Yeah.

But I wouldn't practice. The whole idea of reading music really intimidated me. I thought I should be able to read it like a printed page, at which I was precocious. Yeah. But it wasn't the same thing. And people didn't tell me, oh, no, that just shows you where you place your fingers.

Yeah. If someone had explained that to me, I could have stuck with it longer and figured it out. Right, so you got overwhelmed. Yeah. Oh, and I just intimidated. Right. And then just like 2002, I decided I'm going to try and take some piano lessons.

Yeah. And I got it. They said, no, it shows you where you place your fingers. And you're like, damn, I should have. And it wasn't that difficult, you know. I played, what is it, J.S. Bach's very first thing for people beginning piano yeah yeah i was able to read it and play it oh and do you regret not doing it now yeah yeah of course but it's too late yeah it's too late but do you play for enjoyment i'm only 60 years too late you know

but that hasn't stopped you in the past no No, no. And, you know, if you do it for yourself, it's fun. Are you doing it? I might, you know, because sometimes I hear somebody on, and I got to like, well, what is that chord? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chucho Valdez. Yeah. And do you go work it out?

Do you figure it out? At least the one chord? A couple of chords and, you know, how they relate to each other. It's magic, man. It it is it really is magic so like i've been watching um like i guess because i in this book like you had a good relationship with your dad yeah and your mom too wasn't close but you know it wasn't it wasn't bad right it just wasn't close right My dad was a very distant kind of guy. The only thing, two things he liked, he liked music and he liked my mom. And what did your mom do? My mom, she was a seamstress. And your dad had a job outside of the music? My dad was a cop. Oh, really? Yeah. My dad was in the police band. So he got to play behind Marilyn Monroe when she sang Happy Birthday to President Kennedy.

Oh, really? At the Democratic Convention in Madison Square Garden. No kidding. So my dad, you know, they figured they'd get the police band. Everybody's a cop. There won't be anybody crazy coming in. They were ready. Yeah.

Did you go to that thing? No, I didn't. But I still have the letter that they sent to my dad, thanking him in advance for participating. And they said, just bring this letter with you to such and such a gate, such and such an entry at Madison Square Garden. And that's how he got in? That's how he got in.

And that was the highlight of his musical career. Because this new i mean which it's a few months old though is about you and uh and and coach wooden like and that's a like a long relationship that seems sort of like a fatherly relationship it was it just started out you know he was the coach and i was the player and right we started to become friends and we became close friends and then it just kept morphing and but he was with you through all your changes right and more or less it was he became like we were family yeah and those conversations I mean like in terms of like when you try when you became more politically active and you chose to you know change uh you know your religious affiliation and all this stuff, was he a guy that would sit with you and question your motives?

No. But sometimes he would want to draw you out and ask you what motivated you. He wanted to know about how much thought you'd given it and how much research you'd devoted. And, you know, just how much into it were you or was this just a lark? And what were some of the things that, you know, he, like part of his process in terms of how they sort of guided you throughout your life? You know, like what were the things that you learned either, you know, on the court or off the court or just as a human being that that gave you strength from this guy well i think that uh he just gave us confidence that we were prepared uh-huh you know and he because he prepared us and he said you know if you follow these things i'm showing you you going to be able to, you'll enjoy the way that you play the game. And you were able to apply that to life? Yeah. It's amazing, you know, just what we learned

about how to support the people that we care about. Right. And that goes through life. See, it's a weird thing for me because I was not brought up with sports. You know, I'm not a huge sports guy. And, you know, obviously I know huge sports guy and and you know obviously i know who you are and i respect you and the writing and everything but i can't sit here and do stats with you or why would we want to do that we wouldn't want to do it anyway but there are dudes that i imagine you have to deal with that all your life oh yeah and people like geez you know larry bird didn't but through it all i mean being that you know you Larry Bird didn't, yeah. But through it all, I mean, being that, you know, you are one of the greatest players that ever lived,

that, you know, was it from the beginning, knowing that you could do it and you were good at it, and obviously that was undeniable at a very early age, was there something going from the inside that's sort of like, I want to do something else? Yeah, there was. Yeah. But I liked the game yeah i thought it was neat you know i i enjoyed playing it yeah and uh can make some books wow yeah and i you know i had some some skill that translated into uh you know a professional

career and um you know i i was really thankful that I had the opportunity. My producer, who knows a little more about sports than me, said that you were always judged for your attitude. Yeah. And that kind of hung over you. I just looked at this interaction you had with

Donald Trump. The letter he sent you. Which is something he did to anybody that pissed him off, right? Right. But he went out of his way just to diminish you and try to, you know, bully you in your soft spot. But, you know, I've dealt with bullies. Yeah, yeah.

I'd love to meet him out back. That won't happen. Not anymore. Yeah. A few years ago, you might have been able to pull it off. No, no no no he he doesn't impress me as someone with a lot of guts i was reading uh or i was watching a documentary on on vietnam the new ken burns documentary and you know that's a 10 part documentary about that period and and you lived through all of that yeah i did i i graduated from high school in 1965 just when it was ramping up you know the war yeah and so you knew through all of that. Yeah, I did. I graduated from high school in 1965 just when it was ramping up, you know, the war.

And so you knew a lot of guys that went. Yeah, I had guys. Some of my friends went over there and didn't come back. Were you eligible for the draft, obviously? I was eligible in that I was old enough, but at 6'8", being the top height, you know, and I was seven feet tall. Right. Wasn't going to happen. Wasn't going to happen.

And I just had to go by my board and they said, yeah, you're too tall. And that was it. Yeah. So what point did you like, you know, find yourself? Because the one thing that I didn't remember because I'm 53, so I was young. But, you know, the country is polarized now. But like, I didn't really understand the intensity or the scope of

the polarization in the late 60s, both around civil rights and the war. And it seems that, you know, what we're living in now, the country we're living in, was really invented in relation to that war, that those fights are the same fights that are going on now. Yeah, the same conflicts with regard to, you know, what is the future of America? Yeah. Yeah. And when did you, what was the thing that kind of like, you know,

blew your mind open about, you know, becoming engaged and becoming, that drove you to become engaged, to become active, to become awake and fighting. I just felt that, you know, black Americans had to get to a point where we had first class citizenship. Yeah. Second class citizenship sucks, man. And just having to always defer because people don't think you're worthy, it's horrible. It just defeats you at every turn. And you can't be your best. Yeah.

And that's one of the great things about America. We all get a chance to do our thing and give our best impression of what our life should be about. Yeah. And you felt that, and obviously it's true to a large degree, that that was not available in the same way for black Americans as it was for others. No, no, it wasn't. We had to defer to people who felt that we weren't worthy of being successful. And, you know, we had to put an end to that. When you converted to Islam, what was it that drove that decision? I was raised Roman Catholic, you know, and monotheism seemed to make sense to me.

But, you know, the Roman Catholics uh support of the slave trade really uh that that turned me off yeah so i wanted to to figure out you know what monotheistic religion i could support that uh didn't have that type of history but you had no you you always believed in god yeah i always believed in the supreme being it seemed to make sense to me yeah yeah and that was it and that was it and that was that was that why that particular religion was it popular at the time as a as a as a statement or was it you know there's you could have become a jew absolutely no it is but uh you know being of African descent, the monotheistic religion that is most popular in Africa is Islam. And Islam has a great history in terms of what has contributed to world culture, mathematics and the physical sciences. Sure.

physical sciences. Sure. Extraordinary contributions. What the Muslims did in starting medicine, the Renaissance absolutely started because Europeans came into contact with the scholarship of the Muslim world. Yeah, yeah. And they don't want to acknowledge it. Right. But when you protested the Olympics in 68 and boycotted the Olympics, what happened when you did that? Well, a lot of people thought that I was supposed to just be content to have access to playing in the NBA. Yeah. You know, I was supposed to make my money and keep my head down and not complain about anything. So they, yeah, and they expected that from Ali too, right? They expected that from all black people.

Yeah. So when you did that, was there, was the hostility, did it come, did it show up at the games and everything? No, you know, people were, you know, oftentimes pretty subtle with it. They didn't want to be too obvious with it because they had seen some of the negative aspects of white supremacy and there's no way people could defend that. Right, until now. Yeah. It seems to have made a return.

Yeah, which is heartbreaking and awful. Yeah, but it's what we've got to deal with. Yeah, what is happening now, it happened, was your initial response was like, well, now we can see them in the light because they've got a voice, but they were always there. Yeah, they were always there, light because they've got a voice but they were always there yeah they were always there and uh it was uh people seem to have have forgotten that because uh just so much of uh

the past i i i think certainly the clinton administration and obama's administration they saw uh minorities making a lot of headway. And even though I've been fortunate enough to do well, you still see what's happening. And too many people can't find their way out of the things that keep pulling them backwards. Yeah. And it becomes harder when the ways that there are get shut off. Yeah, there's no way out. There's no way to get your little piece of sunshine. Right.

Did you have fun in the 70s? Yeah, I did. I had fun, but it was tough. During that time, everybody just seemed to want to question everything. Are they getting too much? Oh, yeah? Yeah, just because as the barriers fell down for black participation in American society, it was questioned. Yeah.

Yeah. society uh it was questioned yeah yeah now when you like like i know that you've done a lot of different sort of uh i kind of have a vague memory of you uh in a in some sort of martial arts attire uh you know was that something that you know was that something because i you studied with bruce lee is that trained with bruce yeah and like that guy like i can't like he died way too young but what what was he like just so now you babysit you knew monk and you knew bruce lee these guys are like you know magicians they're mystics absolutely you know and bruce was great because he he felt that uh you know the martial arts uh should be practiced and uh learned by everybody he he wasn't going to teach just chinese right you, he kind of opened

it up. He opened it up. He said, I learned from everybody. I teach everybody. That was his attitude. He was awesome in that sense, because the martial arts are so tradition bound. And, you know, if you study like a Korean system of martial arts, you're supposed to think that any other system sucks. Yeah. You know, and you can't learn from them. And he was eclectic in the things that he chose to use. And he said, you've got to use what works for you. That has to deal with your physique and your level of athletic ability.

Uh-huh. And, you know, just what you can learn. And you've got to make it pragmatic for yourself. Were you in one of his movies? Yeah, I was in the Game of Death. I can't like it's it's wild that these little flashes of you come back in my mind in movies and on tv shows. So like was he like a philosophical guy or was he just a physical like kind of uh? He was a philosophical guy he he got his degree from the University of Washington in philosophy. Oh, really?

Yeah. And did you glean anything from him? What was his basic philosophy? He was kind of like a modern-day Taoist priest. Yeah. Just the pragmatic road to success and harmony. That's more or less what he was about. That was his trip? Yeah.

And do you still practice any disciplines? Some yoga. Yeah? The yoga really helps. And, you know, I train a little bit and jump some rope and, you know, try to stay in shape and not become a fat person. Do you think that could happen to you? No, not at this point.

Yeah. You never know. Yeah, yeah. When did you start the writing? I started writing really in grade school. You know, I used to represent my school in essay contests. The nuns thought that I was that accomplished. It was always something you wanted to do? Yeah, I always enjoyed reading. Yeah. And then I always had ideas about stories and um i was an english major at ucla who were the authors that moved you first robert louis stevenson sure berger kipling

you know those guys big stories yeah stories of uh the classic stories sure yeah yeah kidnapped you know sure yeah yeah yeah treasure island yeah yeah yeah there's there's struggle there's a swashbuckling. There's, you know. Mystery. Everything. And like there was a time there where you were sort of hanging out with some of the, like because it seemed like in the 70s the writers were like superstars.

Like they, you know, they were present in the cultural landscape. They'd show up at talk shows, you know, like in Mailer and Talese and all those cats. Oh, yeah. There was a sort of like urbane intelligentsia that kind of had a hold on culture a little bit. And their voices were important. Right. And especially when it started with the whole feminist movement.

Yeah, yeah. Women started to change things for the better. And were you hanging out with those cats at all? With the writers and dudes? Well, you know, I got to meet and know Gay Talisi. Nice guy. Yeah, and he wrote some pretty provocative books. The one I like the best

was Fame and Obscurity. Yeah, why'd you like that one? Just the different portraits of people you know, that Frank Sinatra has a cold. He wrote about the heavyweight champion floyd patterson who used to go around with disguises because he didn't want people to recognize him yeah stuff like he wrote about the uh the building of the verrazano narrows bridge

you know what it was all about just uh different stuff that like really interested me that uh how did it change your ideas about how your fame was playing out i mean you can't really think it did that but it just made me aware of things in the world that uh you know i had no idea right right there's little nooks and crannies where you're like holy shit yeah that's that's some pretty interesting stuff yeah yeah and did that is that what sort of sparked you to become more of a cultural commentator and to explore the things that you explored? And just, you know, the things that make me go, you know, holy, wow, what's that all about? Right.

And so you were able to sort of like do that stuff. I mean, like to do like a book like Profiles in Courage and then to do the book about the Tank Brigade. I mean, these are historical elements that that are you know that that a lot of people don't know about but were fascinating to you to me and and especially the one about the tank battalion the 761st tank battalion uh one of the guys in there uh leonard smith he he received the uh bronze star uh just an incredible combat record but uh you you know, I remember when I was a little kid, World War II, you know, they were always acknowledging those guys, their tremendous sacrifice.

The guys. The guys and the women. And, you know, Tom Brokaw does The Greatest Generation to acknowledge them. And here you have a group of them, black Americans, Yeah. And here you have a group of them, black Americans who supported the war and used the war as a means to fight Hitler and Jim Crow. Yeah. I went to see the screening of, and I go there, and there's Leonard Smith. And I remember him from the last time I'd seen him, I'd been in high school, all right? And I'm 42 years old now. Yeah.

And I see Smitty. I'm like, Smitty, what are you doing here? And I find out he was in the 761st Tank Battalion. And then I watched the documentary and find out that he fought in the Battle of the Bulge and then was with Patton, the first uh allied units into germany proper wow they crossed the rhine river first yeah and uh they they cleaned out the sigfried uh the sigfried line yeah smitty was given a bronze star i just i had no idea how did you know him from when you were younger? He was a police officer with my father. Oh, my God.

So I'd known Smitty since I was seven or eight years old, and he was just this guy that was kind of a crazy cop that hung out with my dad. He and my dad would go hear the big bands when they came to New York, all the bands that they liked when they were younger. So, you know, Count Basie or Lionel Hampton came to New York, all the bands that they liked when they were younger. So when Count Basie or Lionel Hampton came to New York, my dad and Smitty would go down and hear them. But no talk of World War II?

No talk of World War II. I had no idea of what he had done, and I found out he won the Bronze Star. Did your old man know, you think? He must have, right? No, my dad didn't know. So do you think it was one of those things where the... Those guys didn't talk about it. they came home and just uh you know they were just glad to get home and got to work and got to work and you know started doing things

but uh isn't that something it's amazing so like so now like when you see him again at that thing this whole other world opens up to you and you, like, why doesn't everybody know about this? Yeah, so I had to do something, and I wrote my book, Brothers in Arms, so that their story would be told accurately, because there were a few things in the documentary that they got confused. Oh, yeah? They conflated some of the things. Yeah, and how many of those guys were alive at the time were you able to talk to? Oh, there were about

20 or 30 of them. This is like, you know, right after 2000. Yeah. I published the book in 2004. Yeah. So there are a few of them

still alive? Yeah, very few now. Right. Since then, they've all passed on. Smitty died the year after i published the book he died in 2005 so did my father all right and so you know a whole lot of guys in the unit have have died and passed on but he was able to see the book yeah they were and they really thanked

me they gave me a they acknowledged me for uh telling the story accurately uh-huh they that's all they wanted you know they just wanted to have it told accurately. And you got it. Yeah, I got it right. Clinton gave one of the guys in the unit the Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously in 1998 or 99. That was given to Reuben Rivers of Oklahoma.

Yeah. He was given a posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor. Is your book being read in schools now? I mean, does it give you... I know, but it was for sale on all the PXs. And a lot of military people got to read it.

Oh, did they come? A lot of them have come and thanked me, said, hey, I really enjoyed that. It really helped me understand a lot about what the black experience in World War II was all about, you know, because, you know, black Americans had to fight for the right to fight. Wow. You know, and they finally did it. And then after the war was over, Truman integrated the armed forces and said that, you know, a segregated army is an inefficient army,

and we're not going to do that anymore. Well, that's one of the things I noticed that they kind of talk about in the Vietnam documentary is that he spent a lot of time with it because it's Ken Burns, so he does a pretty good job. And he talked about how the fragmentation and the racial tension of the states, once you got into the shit, that stuff kind of goes away. Right.

And it's like everybody's just a person here. Right. We all want to live and survive and get back to America. you know, to America. So it seems like also with the other book, On the Shoulders of Giants, that part of your mission in life is to sort of, you know, show, you know, black history

for what it really is. Yeah, and show all of America that black Americans have contributed so much to what makes America great. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's not like we're just here and, you know and occupying space. We've managed to make America a better place.

And what did you learn about that period, the Harlem Renaissance, they call it? Oh, just the fact that so many things that affected American culture in the 20th century started with the Harlem Renaissance, starting with jazz music, but so many other things. Dance. Dance. The arts in general, and I guess literature as well. Absolutely. Cultural commentary.

Cultural commentary, and the fact that also integrating sports and taking that on on a totally different uh plane and adding to to the to its luster yeah yeah did you see that documentary the uh uh not i'm not your negro yes that that was extraordinary i talked to that guy raul peck yeah i've met him also what a guy huh he's incredible oh god and but know, for me, it just I needed to see that because it was like right after the the election. And, you know, I was down. Yeah. I went and saw that and I was like, wow, because, you know, when I was in the eighth grade is when I first read James Baldwin and became aware of him. And he helped me understand things that my parents couldn't explain to me. You know, my parents couldn't articulate what was happening in America and why things were so bad for black Americans.

They couldn't articulate it. We could see it. We could see that we were, you know, oppressed. But the words to express that, you know, my parents weren't too good at that yeah and james baldwin was able to like just define it and get people to understand uh what it was about and uh how absolutely necessary it was to to see that it came to an end yeah and what and what an amazing thinker the levels of of intellectual you know acumen was like mind-blowing yeah like you know i watched that documentary and I was like, I had to watch it two or three times just to even begin to take on the intellectual depth of that guy.

To understand the context of everything. It's mind-blowing, man. And when I had Peck in here, the thing that struck me about that conversation was that he comes from Haiti. So fighting the fight is something that that like struck me about that conversation was that you know he comes from haiti so you know you know fighting the fight is something that it's it's not taken for granted in any way nothing

is ever accepted you're born into it and you got to push back and to understand the commitment uh that that's really the thing i i've seen uh john lewis speak And, you know, he's not bitter about anything. And, I mean, he had a concussion. They could have killed him, you know, when he crossed the bridge that day. And he said, look, you know, yeah, I could have gotten killed, but if you do not put your life on the line, you are not committed to nonviolence. Right.

Whoa. Yeah. on the line you are not committed to non-violence right whoa yeah and you know he he showed exactly how much that that took you know he he said he had his bible in one pocket and uh an apple or something yeah in case he got hungry and he just saw what was coming and button battened down but did not step backwards yeah that kind of courage man wow it's wild right yeah and and it's not it it doesn't come easy and and in most people would rather not deal with it right it's so much easier not you know to let someone else uh yeah until until no one else is going. Right. Right? But unless you understand that,

you can't say that you're committed. And he made that very clear. Wow. When this happened, when this election happened, after eight years of Obama and however you feel about him as a president, he was a good president. Every president has his shortcomings

and does things you don't like, but it is a cultural beacon for the country. When this happened, I mean, what was your first gut reaction? My first gut reaction to Trump's election? I couldn't understand where he found the votes. Yeah.

You know, because I thought that most Americans were appalled at who he was. Yeah. But they weren't. I mean, there were some Americans that were waiting for someone like that to step forward. Why do you think that is? I don't know. It's like they resent the fact that, it seems to me that some people resent the fact that people of color are being given an equal chance

to be successful. That to me can be the only, they resent seeing people of color doing well. And they think that they're supposed to do well before people of color. Maybe that's it. But didn't you write a bit about how, like, the idea of non-white people outnumbering white people became sort of threatening it's become threatening or uh it i think sometimes it has to do with resentment that uh those people might have political power and we have to do something about it i think that's why are we getting all this

voter suppression uh by Republicans. They just don't like the fact that the color of the people that are accruing more power, it bothers them that they're not white. that they're not white. So after all this, when we talk about progress and when you talk about what you did, the actions you took, and people like Lewis and people that have been fighting this fight forever, when the sort of pushback and the sort of one-step-forward, two-step-back feeling of it,

you know, what... You know, I don't get it. I don't have anything against people in appalachia doing well yeah you know if something happens where they get a leg up and start to to do well i'm happy for them that's great yeah why can't they feel that way about other segments of our society about uh hispanics or or black amer or Native Americans doing better and everybody succeeding being successful you know I think we all benefit from that yeah I just think that like it strikes me recently is that and it was

sort of a big epiphany oddly was that it just seems that outside of just racism, that they have a very different idea of what America is supposed to be, of what democracy is supposed to be, that the idea of equality and diversity is not what it's supposed to be in their mind. And yet they still think they're being patriotic. Yeah, and they want to deny success to certain segments of society because they don't have more success.

I don't get that. It makes no sense. It's resentment. It's spite. It's jealousy. It's envy. It's a class issue, a lot of it, right? Yeah, there's race,

but there's also like poor people on either side have a difficult time. Right. And a lot of times people don't want to admit that. They don't want to admit it at all here. Yeah. You know. It's ridiculous. Yeah.

So what was it like when you got given the opportunity to be an ambassador for two administrations? What was that responsibility to you? I thought it was a great privilege. And it reminded me of one of my heroes who had a chance to do the same thing, Louis Armstrong. Yeah. And what was the activities? What was the job in a way? Just to explain what democracy is all about, I went to Brazil. Yeah.

You know, people in Brazil were, like, shocked that Obama got elected president. They didn't think that democracy worked like that. Oh, really? So, you know, to see that happen and a black American got elected, it changed their ideas about democracy and their own potential. That's interesting. Yeah, it was. democracy and their own potential. That's interesting.

Yeah, it was. It's interesting, too, now that, like, you know, given the other side of that, that this guy that we have now was elected is also having, you know, repercussive ripples globally that, but it's the opposite. It's like, well, if that shit can happen in America, we better, you know, make sure it doesn't happen here. Right. We better, you know, make sure it doesn't happen here. Right, because, you know, you get the wrong person at the wheel.

That kind of reminds me of some lyrics from, are you familiar with Moe's Allison? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody's always playing with dynamite, so I don't worry about a thing because I know nothing's going to come out right. That's a good one. So where else did you travel when you were when you were that that was it and then then what did uh what did obama have you do oh nothing nothing didn't do it i uh was uh well i i'm on the uh coin commission which is people we uh we uh suggest coin uh themes for for our coinage really yeah how did you get that gig uh i just i i'm i'm a coin collector and you are yeah like still yeah what's it what's the fascination uh the fascinating i've read uh I read Ron Chernow's book on Hamilton

and just saw what he did in putting together our fiscal policy and our monetary policy and realized maybe I should have gold coins, American gold coins, because they represent something. And I was able to ride up. Gold went from $400 an ounce up to $1,200 an ounce. I even made some money on it. Oh, yeah? Got some gold?

Yeah. It went down. Now it's up again, huh? It's up and down. But I saw a documentary once on how they secure currency, and it blew my mind. Like, it was all about about like that basically it starts with the recipe for the paper of American currency and how you know at that level how do we secure that it's a very it's a specific recipe it's pulp

and it's it's come some of it comes from cotton and they have the little blue and red strands in there and then you got to do the watermark thing I was like I was just fascinated with the efforts that went into guaranteeing that the currency stands for something. Yeah, and so it can't be counterfeited. Right, exactly. It was just like the thought process that went into it kind of blew my mind. So what are some of your ideas for coinage? Just they wanted to, we do the coins and metals that the United States produces.

Ingots? No, not ingots, but they have. Metals, oh, you mean that are given to people. That are given to people and that citizens can buy. You can buy metals. Yeah, like silver. Silver and gold metals with different themes on them. Did any of your ideas get onto the medals?

No, but it's interesting just to learn the process. Yeah, yeah. Now, when did you stop showing up on TV shows and stuff? Like as an actor, when did that kind of... Oh, geez. You know, while I was playing yeah i was still it was still in the 80s and they don't they don't have roles for guys that are seven feet tall you know you were funny in airplane come on i was playing myself you have to have to play yourself so

now that i write and um can be behind the camera and at my pad writing stories, it's a lot better that way. I'm enjoying writing. How those detective books do? They're written for, what are they, for teenagers primarily? No, no, no.

The book I wrote is about Sherlock Holmes' older brother Mycroft. It's basically his backstory. Oh, yeah. That's interesting because that's a different angle because some people have approached that before, you know, the side stories of Holmes.

And yours is sort of a new one. Yeah. The way it came together was, if you read Arthur Conan Doyle, he only mentions Sherlock's brother a couple of times, like six or seven times. In passing? Yeah, but it says about him,

he was really something in the British government. of times like six or seven times in passing yeah and it but it says about him he he uh was really something in the british government and at certain moments he was the british government yeah so you know he's a powerful somebody in in the british government and he and he helped sherlock at various times because of his position right right but that's that's all you know about him so you had you got to build the whole... I built the whole backstory, you know, and that was the first book. And the second book comes out this fall. And how were they received? Good? The first one was received well. I was shocked. The character of Sherlock Holmes was based on a doctor that Arthur Conan Doyle knew. Arthur Conan Doyle was an ophthalmologist. He knew another doctor named Joseph Bell,

who was able, if he looked at you, he could just tell from your clothing and just what he could observe about you, a lot about you, just noticing the soot on your shoes or certain... Yeah. Oh, he was that guy. He could read you.

He could read you like that. Yeah. And it was a doctor that Arthur Conan Doyle knew. And that's... That was the root of it. That was the root for Sherlock. Yeah. That Sherlock could just put all these things together and know so much about you.

Yeah. Immediately. And it had to do with his knowledge of chemistry and all kinds of yeah arcane things but uh it's just it's fun for me i i enjoy it i i've enjoyed uh all of the stuff i've read by john le carre and you like that stuff walter mosley yeah yeah raymond chandler and all those guys how long do you write every day not every every day. Sometimes I have other assignments. I have to do articles. I read a piece you wrote on girls.

That was good. That was tight. Yeah. Yeah. Just had a few things that I liked about girls and a few things that I was critical about. But Ms. Dunham has done a great job with that. Yeah. And how's your health?

My health is pretty good. Yeah? I'm great job with that. Yeah. And how's your health? My health is pretty good. Yeah? I'm in pretty good shape. Yeah. Now, you know, I remember when you had a quadruple bypass? Yeah, two years ago. Oof. Scary.

I can't imagine, man. I just found out that my heart arteries were a five-star hotel for plaque. Yeah. You just found out. I found out two years ago, and I had no idea. The Widowmaker, the one they call the Widowmaker, that was 100% blocked. Oh, my God. I had blockages of 180%, 80% and 60%.

But had you been like, did you have high cholesterol? No. You didn't? No high cholesterol. There's nothing wrong with my heart. So what did the doc say? How's that happen? Some people's arteries are just the perfect place for the plaque to collect.

Because I went and got one of those calcium scans just recently just because someone said I could just go do it. I got a little in there. I got a little in there. It won't kill you if the right things are done.

I noticed when Letterman had his did you find did it change your emotionally? Did it change you? Did you wake up, feel more sensitive or more, like life was more fragile? Actually, you feel more vulnerable. Right. You know, you get depressed at times just realizing that the things that can go wrong will go wrong. Yeah, yeah.

You never think that that's going to happen to you. Oh, yeah. And does it still... I have a son. One of my sons is a physician. He said, Dad, don't worry about it. You're lean, you exercise, you eat right. Before that thing.

Before, and I went in and they said, you got all these blockages. My son, the doctor, thought maybe I might need a stent or something. Yeah. But no telling. Yeah, they had to do the whole thing. Yeah. So what is your day?

How are you approaching the day-to-day fight of this? What's coming at you now as an American Muslim man, as as a black man like on a day-to-day basis how much shit are you getting uh it's not too bad now because uh muslims in america are waking up to the fact that they have to engage and have to let people know what they're about. There's nothing wrong with Islam. It's some of the people who are interpreting it in bizarre and extreme ways that are the problem. And, you know, that has happened. We have that example here in our country, a group called the Ku Klux Klan that claim to be the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and they're terrorists. Yeah.

And, you know, they terrorize blacks and Jews and other minorities. So, you know, we have to understand what things actually are and deal with them for what they are. If we can do that, you know, we won't get lost in, you know, arguing about things. We've got to protect everybody and make the Constitution a real living document that protects and enables all Americans to succeed. On a day-to-day basis, what's your

process? What do you do? You exercise? You write a little bit? You think about things? If I have a writing assignment, I try to deal with that. But, you know, I just try to take care of myself and work out a little bit in the morning. Yeah. I have a granddaughter now.

Oh, really? That's great. Graduations. Thank you. How old? She's two and a half. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah.

That must bring a lot of love and joy. Yeah, it does. Yeah. It helps me. It keeps things in balance. Do you go out and speak at all? Do you go to schools or anything? Not at schools, but, you know, I've been, I work for a pharmaceutical company sometimes

and talk to patients that have leukemia. I have, I'm a leukemia survivor, and I talk to them about. You fought some fights, huh? Yeah, I had to. Yeah. How did you get the leukemia into check? Fortunately, I have chronic myeloid leukemia, and I can treat it. Mm-hmm.

And so you go offer some support and tell people about their options? Yeah, and just let them know that they're not alone and they can beat it. And do you feel hope, Kareem? Absolutely. I know there's hope because remember when we talked earlier about James Baldwin and I and it just made me

remember how bad things were. They were a lot worse than they are now. So we just have to rewrite the ship and get it back to where it needs to be. All right. Well, thanks for talking to me, man. It was wonderful.

I'm glad you came. It was nice talking with you. Okay, that's it. That's it. That was good. He's intense. Very tall. You're a very tall man.

Yeah. You almost hit his head on the ceiling of the garage. So I will talk to you Thursday. I will play guitar through, I think, a new... I've just been like, if you've been keeping up with this portion, I've been just plugging in these pedals. I don't know what they do. This is an Earthquaker transmissor.

It's kind of haunting. Haunting sound. what they do this is an earthquake or transmissor but it's kind of haunting haunting sound Thank you. Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

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