WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 839 - Brent Weinbach / Ms. Pat

Episode Date: August 20, 2017

First things first: Brent Weinbach and Marc need to have a good conversation about crying. Once that's out of the way, the two of them figure out how Brent's performance-based comedy, filled with multiple characters and flights of absurdity, is connected to his pursuit of becoming a jazz musician as a teenager. It also has something to do with why Brent thinks Chico is the best Marx Brother. Also, Ms. Pat returns to the garage now that she's turned her harrowing personal stories into a new memoir called 'Rabbit.' Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

Lock the gate! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is wtf my podcast how are you everything Everything all right? Is it? Is it? If it sounds different, it's because I am not at home. I am away. I am on a vacation. I'm inland. I'm off the coast. Some fears are alleviated. I have a lot of time, a lot of space in my mind. Obviously, things in the world are difficult and horrible, and we lost a great comedic and social activist warrior. Two days ago, Dick Gregory died. He was an old man, but he was very vital.

It's important to have that generation of creative activists around as a point of reference, as a force of nature. It's always upsetting when great people that have made an impact on the life of our culture and our individual lives pass away. I had the privilege of interviewing Dick Gregory with Sam Seder years ago in 2009 when we did Break Room Live. I don't know that we interviewed him. I think we got a lesson. I think that Sam and I, looking back on it, sat there and listened to a wise, angry, righteous old Buddha who had come to the show, had come to the studio with a can of Alpo dog food

to make a point to us that, and it was a very articulate point, and it was based on packaging and social evidence, numbers, cultural understanding that a good deal of the dog food sold in inner city and urban areas was not being eaten by dogs. And it was a painful point, but it was, and there was some humor in it. But as many people, I think who followed Dick Gregory know that, you know, he was one of the first real social satirists, one of the first people to integrate political criticism into his routines, along with Mort Sahl and Lenny Bruce and some others. Mort Sahl is still alive in his 90s.

Lenny obviously has passed, and now Dick Gregory is gone. But as his career went on, he focused more on activism on a lot of levels and chose to fight that fight in that way. Marched in Selma, was part of the civil rights movement at the time and always all through his life. It just, you know, whether you kept up with him or not or whether you know his history or not, it's something you should look into. His records are hilarious and also his life was important. And you should, you know, connect with that if you can. I mean, I need to more.

I need to now look back at the career of Dick Gregory. But these guys who are that age of that generation are gone, and times are bad, and you wonder who's going to fill that void. So rest in peace, Dick Gregory. You were important,, what you stood for is important and still important. And you will be missed. If you can sense a slight tightness, uh, you know, in, in my chest or in my voice, it's because I am where I grew up. And later this afternoon, I'm going to go to the source.

I'm going to go to where it started. I'm going to go see my father. And something happens to me mentally. I don't know about you guys, but something happened. You know, I know I got to be fortified. I got to be, you know, on point. I got to be not ready for a battle, but just sort of like protected, insulated.

No openings, no vulnerabilities, but yet pleasant and respectful. That's how I handle it now. Stay tough, be pleasant, be respectful. And try to see where he's at and what's going on, what he needs, and just get out without falling apart. I don't know if that's a great father-son relationship, but that's the one that I have. And I'll let you know how that goes.

Today on the show, doubleheader, it's Ms. Pat and Brent Weinbach, two extraordinarily different individuals and comedians, but both very interesting, that's for sure. A little while ago, we talked long and hard about her life and about growing up as a young drug dealer in a crazy environment. And now she's got a book out. It's called Rabbit, the Autobiography of Miss Pat. It's available now for pre-order and is in stores tomorrow, August 22nd. I love talking to Pat because you talk to her for a little while, there's a whole new world for her coming from what she came from, coming from the ghetto and coming from horrendous adversity

and then making her way into a relatively comfortable middle-class existence where she takes care of a lot of children, hers and others, and also became a successful comic because she was able to elevate her personal stories of horror sadness violence insanity into something that you know people can understand and relate to and see into a world that many of us don't know because we haven't experienced it we can pretend like we have an idea or pretend or possibly have empathy or compassion, but to really hear it and to know it and to feel it

is something that a lot of us are not privy to. And talking to Pat is always funny, but an education. But now she's in this situation where they're working on developing a show for her. The book is about to come out. It's great. So it's sort of interesting to talk to her at this point where she's in this whole new world of potential success. She doesn't quite feel comfortable there. And also just to sort of play that against her life and what she comes from is great i just i i love seeing her i love talking to her and um yeah i hope it i hope it all works out i i think it's a it's very exciting possibility so this is me talking to uh to miss pat enjoy this

hi it's terry o'reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel.

To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Yes. So the book is like, this is exciting. Very exciting.

It's exciting. It's just called Rabbit? Just called Rabbit. And that was your nickname? That was my nickname. We talked about it. Yeah. Now this is like, you know, obviously you've been doing stand-up a long time, but the book, the process of writing a book, that must have been sort of a new thing.

How did it work? Man. This is going to be the last one, Pat? Yes, Lord. It was rough, and I didn't write the book by myself. Right. I'm not going to say any lie. You know, like I said last time on your show, I dropped out in eighth grade.

Hey, I can count money, but writing is not my thing. A lovely lady by the name of Janine Amber in New York heard me on your podcast, yours and Ari, and came up and said, I think I can write a book. And I'm from the streets, and the first thing I said, well, get out of my face before I slap your head off with that bullshit. But she turned out to be real. And so she basically wrote it with you in the sense that you tell her stories and you put them together yeah and it was a process because you know trying to call back to you know i'm from i'm from the inner city of atlanta so you calling those people from your past and asking them to talk to somebody about writing the book yeah and she's a very well

spoken black lady and the first thing they would always ask she white i ain't talking no white woman i said she black and my brother was like well he said he asked he said are you black she said yes i'm black he said well damn you got all your education we just dropped the phone we couldn't stop laughing so i had to warn her hey these people gonna say what the hell they want to say and it's gonna be a little shocking but there's some honest people and then i had to warn them that she was black and it's okay to talk to her oh my god so that that was a process so i was like can you put a little more a little more slang in your vocabulary she's she'll be on the call with these people from my past uh beg your pardon what you mean beg your pardon i'm hanging up no no no she mean excuse me how many people did you guys have to track down oh quite a few really yeah we had to quite me my old the old guy who i was partnership with he didn't want to talk to her he's like uh i was

like yeah tell how much cocaine we saw oh no they don't want to get in trouble you changed the names though right yes i did I changed everybody's names. You got it. Once we made them comfortable, they started to talk. That was a process. So how far back? You went all the way back? All the way back to your memory?

All the way back to my childhood. Did you find people that you didn't know were still alive or you knew they were all still alive? Were you surprised to find some people? Yeah, I was surprised to find some people that were still alive. I really was. Yeah, I bet. And I was surprised to find out stuff about me, like with my old partner. He was like, yeah, you started.

His mama was a big Christian. He was like, yeah, you started my mama selling drugs. And I was like, no, I didn't. There was a lady who went to church every Sunday. He was like, yeah, you used to pay her to hold your stuff. I stuff I was like for real I kind of felt bad when they started telling me stuff about myself you didn't remember some of the stuff I didn't remember I did not remember putting his mama in the drug game because she went to church every Sunday so that was that was I learned a lot about myself you were a little a little worse than you thought you were yes I was yes I was

my my husband it was shocking to my husband, too, after he read the book. Because a lot of the stories I never told him. Oh, that's always weird. That happens, like, a lot of times in here I'll talk and my girlfriend's like, I didn't know that about you. Or sometimes people, when I talk to them, people who know them, they're like, I had no idea. And I've known him for 20 years. Yeah. It's weird.

Like, what? Like, what didn't he know? He didn't know. Like I told, I said, well, I really wasn't into to to stout guys. My husband wasn't fat, but he was thick. Yeah. I said, but I needed my rent paid. And so, you know, that was one of the reason why he was a nice guy.

Right. And he's like, I never knew that. I said, but I thought I told you I didn't like you, but you had a job and you could read. So we was going to work this thing out. He's like, you never told me that crap. You never told me. Never quite put it like that. You probably had a little more game than that.

And it was a lot of stuff about my ex that he did not know. The old man? The one who knocked you up when you were 14? 13. 13. Yeah. That guy. Yeah.

He didn't know a lot about him because we never discussed it one thing my husband always said mark he said look i am not your kid's father i'm stepping in but do not put him down the don't put the other guy yeah don't put him down you know don't let your let if he's not here let you at least leave a door open so they can get to know him when they get old yeah so my husband didn't know all a lot of the stuff he had done to me when he read the book he was like fuck that dude i had never heard him ever in 23 years 24 years he's never ever spoke bad about that guy until after he read that book oh boy did you track that guy down for the book yeah yeah but he wouldn't really talk he wouldn't you know

he wouldn't really talk no kidding no he all he was saying is uh i'm gonna sue you i said well good because if you do you was behind on your child support i'll get it right back please sue me i've been trying to get you caught up for years one thing i learned out of writing this book yeah when you've been hurt a lot of time you will protect the people that hurt you. And I had no idea that it was two people in my life that I was constantly protecting. It was him and it was my mom. Yeah. I was like, no, don't write my mama that way.

She's like, but that was your mom. No, I don't want people to see her. But that was your mom. Yeah. And then it's like when we when I finally come to realization that, you know, when you're 21 year old, 21 years old and you you get a 13-old girl pregnant, really, you're a pedophile. Yeah, right. That's right.

And when she was like, he's a pedophile. And I said, no, he's not. He's not a pedophile. And she said, stop protecting him. And I had to realize, you know, maybe he is a pedophile. Yeah. Should no 21, 22-year-old married man be sleeping with no 13-year-old girl. No, no, it's definitely against the rules.

And come to the hospital and sign a birth certificate and nobody says anything. That's a systemic problem. There's a lot of people having a problem there. I remember you talked to me about that when you were here last time. I still couldn't understand it. Yeah. I guess what are they going to do? They don't want to get involved right is that it they just sign it off that i don't i don't understand they will get involved right today they would get involved and

then i try to look at it with like uh well is it because the eight and nobody gave in the eighties and nobody gave a crap about young black girls then i say sometimes if I was white, would they have stepped up? Yeah. It's a dark story. But you can laugh. You can laugh. You're going to be able to cry. You're going to get mad at me.

You're going to get mad at them. But in the end, it all comes together. Yeah, you did all right. Yeah, I did okay. And that's what we wanted. So that's, you know, when I read it, I like wow i didn't i never looked at my life like this this is what i was searching for yeah and then we talked the other night and you said that that the first version was a little too dark too dark and the editor was like uh uh get rid of it and we was finished so i'm like oh oh wow we finished the book thank you jesus she's like no put it in the

trash and start over i was like uh no i'm gonna need my check because i already spent that money you know i'm poor i got my six lairways waiting to come off out of out of the department store you say no i gotta go cancel my lairways and boy i was heartbroken i was heartbroken but didn't you keep some of it yeah we did we just we we switched some stuff around it didn't you know it took another year. But she did. I got to say, over at HarperCollins, Julia made the right decision. And I'm glad she did what she did. At first, I didn't understand it. I was ready to pull off my hair and go to New York and say, we need to talk.

I'm going to need your credit card to get my layaways out. And you thought it was the right thing because you wanted the story to be balanced. You didn't want it to be too dark't want to drag you didn't want it to be too dark too relentless i don't want you to put down the book i want you to say i want to see how this turns out right i want to see somebody totally from the bottom and you know the great part about is i don't whine in this book i don't fault anybody for what i went through yeah i don't i don't pity it's no pity party for me. It's just straightforward. What happened, how I dealt with it, why I did what I did, and then we get to where I'm at today. And now we also talked about you're developing a show over there.

At Fox, yes. That's another hard camp. Oh, Jesus Christ. TV ain't no joke. No. You know how they put out stories like, this actor is crazy. And I'm like, hell, I see why they're crazy. And I'm just at the beginning.

I haven't even shot the pilot yet. And it is very hard. It is. You know, just I've always taken care of myself, Mark, ever since, you know, from day one, as I can remember, even when, you know, after that first child. That's when my stuff really started to kick in for me. Yeah. And I I don't I don't like no. Yeah. Because I feel like I can always turn my nose into a yes. I can get out there and bust my butt in my mind. Mark, I really think that I can sell more books out of my trunk than the Internet can because I know how hard I'm going to work for Miss Pat.

And that's because I sold a lot of drugs. So if I can sell that out of my trunk, truly, you can load my book. You can give me a trunk full of books. Well, hopefully it won't come to that. Hopefully it won't. I hope it don't. But, you know, with TV, you just got you got all of these people involved and then they tell you what they want and you think you give it to them. Oh, that's not what I want. And I'm like, I don't get it.

This what you ask for. So it's just so much back and forth that I'm not. So many people involved, so much negotiating. And you want to try to hold on to your story and do it the way you see it. And there's all these other people that are afraid of that or whatever. They're afraid of their job. Who the hell knows what? Yeah, I'm like, do you want the Ms. Pastore or you just want a story where you can just pop in some big black girl?

Yeah. I mean, honestly and you know then you you know as a comic you want it to happen hell yeah i need it i got four crack babies i gotta raise yeah you know i don't know how this health care thing going they might be losing their health care i need money but sometimes you know i always say if you if if you ain't willing to stand for something you'll fall for anything that's's right. Well, you know, it's hard. It's hard when you kind of make your own way to sort of realize the difference between compromising too much and just negotiating with people. Yeah.

Yeah. There's a give and take to it. You know, it's a good idea but you know uh okay we'll take that idea but it but hold on to other ones you know what i mean yeah like you know it becomes a sort of process of sort of like well let's give them that one as long as we can keep this one you know what i mean like we'll keep this part of it but we'll let them go we'll say that they did that that that's a good idea and sometimes that works sometimes i feel like you, like with this process, I mean, I got a great team behind me. Daniel, imagine 20th and Fox. But, you know, sometimes I get the feeling like we're losing the sense of who Miss Patty is.

And that's what you guys bought. Right. And by no big mouth, loud, roll your neck, tight, roll your eye, tight, black woman. You bought it. You bought a straightforward person with a past yeah and sometime i get a sense that are we losing am i right am i'm gonna let these people not tell the miss pat story yeah oh we losing there that's what that's what scared me sometimes then you know as a comic who's never been in this predicament i never had a deal like this before you don't want to lose the deal right you don't want to lose the deal but you don't want it but you also don't want to be set up to fail yeah i don't want to be set up to fail then i mean i'm not in the streets anymore so i just can't go around the round table slapping the shit out of

people listen to what i'm trying to say you could try it yeah they haul my ass up out of there in a straight jacket and i never get out of jail and this uh in the whole process of it like the show business like you're you're at the you're at the next level where it's like real in the sense that like you got to go to these offices you got to deal with these people you're telling me that story the other night they put you up at the beverly wills oh my god they they spend top dollar to make you feel like you somebody to tell you get the fuck on this didn't work i put me up at the beveler whipshaw all the time that's a pretty woman hotel it is i mean you got them russian women running through there with nick with black women lips and booties and i mean i just feel so out of place really nice hotel and i appreciate father treat me like that yeah but i go

in the first time i get there well i pull up in a car i'm in a car i pull up you rented a car well they rented me a car and i pull up at malibu brand new malibu nice car yeah pull up and they open the door and put these two old white people in my trunk my back seat uber are you uber i said hell no get out my car before i take you to compton so they get that i didn't fit in for two days over there yeah i gotta admit that's happened to me before too really sure if i pull up because i drive a corolla if i pull up at the comedy store like two times people have gotten into the car i'm like i'm not i'm not uber i'm not they just think anybody drive isn't it weird how quickly people just get into a fucking car without even

asking you know just sort of it's crazy and uber has your picture in your name are you so i didn't say anything two days they put old people in my and i said look i'm i know i don't look like i'm staying here i don't have on no heel and my eyes ain't pulled back but i'm staying at this hotel yeah then i get into the lobby it was so funny as i'm coming out uh the guy who does trump oh yeah yeah the oh uh alec baldwin alec baldwin was leaving with his family yeah so i go into the front desk and i tell him who i am and i check in and she said we're gonna need your card so i give her my card now i mean i use yeah i don't i don't have a credit card i use my card yeah i don't like to pay people back yeah

so she's i said hold on how much you putting on my card she said sixteen hundred dollars i said give me i got them card back my card back running you're not putting i said what you think i'm gonna steal the mattress give me my card back nobody's putting i ain't got sixteen hundred dollars give me my money back i called over i called john rattle he's the executive who heard me on your podcast yeah uh i had phone a white person. I said, get over here. These people just asked me for six years. I'm about to faint. I'm about to faint.

That's probably just for the mini bar. What are they thinking? That's a lot. It's crazy. I said, ma'am, do you think I'm going to steal the mattress? Yeah. But I walk in the room and they got Ciroc, Patron. It's like a party up in there.

M&M's, Pringles. M&M's was $10 a pack. I had to take it and take a picture and send it to people in the real world. And say, this is why rich people need a tax break. Because they waste their money on stuff like this. I understand Trump fight

for taxes for the rich now. I ordered a ginger ale 1.5 ounces. They come to the door with the ginger ale and ice. I said, how much is it? $22? No. I grabbed the ice and slammed the door in their face and ice i said how much is it 22 i grabbed the ice and slammed the door in their face i said i'm not 22 for a 1.5 ounce ginger ale i'll tell you i've eaten the 10 m&ms before i'll admit to that you get home you get i get there late at night not that hotel but like hotels and i'll just sometimes you get done with doing a comedy show

and you want to you want to reward yourself and you didn't make it to the 7-eleven that's all I probably made more you made more money than me my budget ain't gonna allow me to pay no ten dollars for no eminent when I know I can walk down to the corner store and if I don't get snatched up I can pay 99 cents for a pack of eminent you're right you're right I just I mean I don't make enough money to do that look I don't feel good about it it's not I mean i don't know that the money's it's a principal thing it's still it still shouldn't be that much money well i pay five hundred dollars for my hair you probably would never pay five hundred dollars for your hair that's true we've got our things yeah we got our balance so you eat the ten dollars m&m and i'm gonna rock the five hundred dollar hair

but i could never eat put ten dollars worth of of M&M's in my, I'm sorry, I'm going to need a truckload of M&M's. M&M's for that. Yeah, at least a bucket. Did you say hi to Alec Baldwin? I said, hey, I appreciate your Trump impersonation. Yeah. He just smiled.

Yeah, he's doing, but you, we talked about, you know, Trump is scary and it's obviously horrendously scary, you know, for all of us, but for the black community, you know trump is scary it's obviously horrendously scary you know for all of us but for the black community you know obviously i don't live in that community but it must be just terrifying it's let me tell you something art all jokes aside being a black parent in this country is scary yeah especially when you're a black parent a young man yeah i mean i like i tell everybody i said i rather battle breast cancer than to think that my child could be next worried about my child every day being shot by the police and people like oh well don't exist well you you can't you cannot you cannot stop nobody who's just downright evil

yeah who came to kill like that um the last dude who was shot with the baby in the back seat yeah did you ever watch that video i cannot pull myself to watch those videos because I, you know, I look at life like this. The police is here to do a job. And a lot of them have families. All polices ain't bad. Right.

All polices are not bad. It's bad. It's bad apples in every job. It's bad. But when you just see somebody pull out their gun, when they ask you for your ID and shoot you that many times, I constantly I had my dentist is a big Trump lover. And I tell him, I say, you know, just be glad that you white. I said, because you don't have to go to sleep worrying about is your child going to return home from work?

I said, that's a fear that just because he gets pulled over for a for a stop sign or something or whatever. I said, you don't want that fear. You don't want that fear you don't want that fear what'd he say you know he never can say anything and i told him i was with his nurse one time and she started crying i said when you got the fear when you go to bed at night you rest easily knowing that uh that your little white baby gonna be all right i said my son work at chick-fil-a and get off at 10 o'clock and I'm scared to death. I do not go to sleep till I know both of my sons is in the house. And one of them don't even live with me. I said, you never have to sit down and have the police talk to your son. I'm so scared.

I was at the dealership that has this thing where you can keep your registration in. And I talked to my 17 year old. I said, never reach. I said, always turn on the inside light. Always say yes, sir. Because if you got an asshole walk up to you, try to defuse it. Don't, you know, I said, let me fight while you alive. I don't want to fight while you dead.

Don't, don't, don't, don't say I'm not giving you my ID. And, you know, we don't have to give them our ID if they don't have a reason to stop. I know. I said, but let me fight for you while you alive. So I gave him this thing and I said, just hand it to the police. That's my license. That's my registration. Always be mallealleable yeah i always keep your hands on the wheel don't ever reach and i tell my son that every day market he's so tired of me he is he's

like mama i know i said but son you don't get it you live in this all-white community you don't really see what's going on in the world because you play a video game yeah but i'm scared shitless and this is your 17 year old that's my and i have a 30 year old that i talk to all the time too he lived not far from me son if the police pull you over put your hands on the wheel yes sir be nice you know just don't do no confrontation he asked you to step outside the car i constantly say i will fight for you but i don't want to fight for you while you dig yeah that's it's just heartbreaking. Yeah. And it's something that, you know, you have a lot of people say, well, make them cooperate.

Well, then sometimes you can cooperate and then it still don't matter. Yeah, it still be. You see the two officers who ran up on the boys in Georgia and he got out. It's constant. What's wrong, officer? He just punched him in his damn face. They fired him. Yeah.

He had no reason to hit somebody like that. And I tell people, you know, you always want to support the police. I support the police, too. But at least I mean, think about when they kill somebody. I mean, think about if that was your child. I always I don't say nothing about no other shoe. What most heartbreaking to me is a 12 year old that they killed in Cleveland. They killed a 12 year old kid for being in a park mart with a toy gun I live on a white community in Plainfield Indiana and I see white babies all the time playing with a gun and it's just I mean to pull up and shoot a 12 year old a 12 think about if that was your child yeah it's horrible somebody loved these people who you think is thugs and and bums and

and criminals somebody love this is somebody family member yeah open your mind and think about that just be black for five minutes say what if that was my child and don't say it can't happen because it can happen to you sure just be black for five minutes for five they ain't gonna want to keep it out of five minutes more they're gonna give it back hell no i won't be on this side i made it 45 seconds yeah 45 seconds i'm out of here i don't like it but i think that's a good sentiment i think that empathy is lacking and that you know something like that that just to say that just be black for five minutes yeah just to sort of like to engage the empathy just engage the ability to be in somebody else's shoes for a minute. Yeah. And really think about it. It's a it's a lot of people are very self-involved and empathy is not always a natural thing for people.

So you live in an all white neighborhood. You have do you talk to people who voted for Trump? Yeah, my neighbor, very conservative. But you know what, Mark? Like my dentist is very conservative and I have a police friend is in a neighborhood and I'm not lying. I think he would. I think he'll lick Trump hair piece if he let him. He loves him some Trump. But my husband's like, how do you talk to these people? I don't judge people because of who they voted for. You know, I feel like we can still be friends. We can have. That's what's great about this country. You know, you think one way. i think one way you like yellow i like black but that don't mean i gotta choke the shit

out of you because we think different right and i'm still their friend yeah i mean i like to hear you know why they think a certain way yeah not that i'm trying to change them then i like for them to hear why i think a certain way now i've had people that can't talk to people who vote for i can't talk to you i'm like why they're human that's their right yeah that's their right to have a have their opinion have you had arguments um yeah not big arguments i mean i don't let it go there because you know gotta remember i'm talking my my conservative friends are police officers and doctors so if i get really loud oh you scared like, oh, you're scaring me. So, you know.

Come on, come on. But, you know, we don't have arguments. We just, he state his opinion and I state mine. Well, what was that conversation you had with that guy after the show? Oh, the guy after the show. I did a show and he come up and he started talking. And the whole thing was I could feel his energy. So I said, what's wrong with you? And he was telling me how he grew up in uh lafayette indiana and you know

where he come from you didn't mix race yeah and then i said well do you feel still feel like that he's like i don't know so i said well what's really going on with you he said well my wife divorced me and married a black man i said you pissed off now ain ain't you? And so I said, he got to talking about it. Guy said, do we have dreads? He's like, yeah. I said, is he educated? He said, yeah. I said, you know what your wife went out of marriage?

He was like, what? I said, a woke nigga. He's like, what? I said, that's a black man that know everything what white America have done to them. I said, so he gonna drop nothing but knowledge on you. He was like, I tried to get him to argue. He just won't argue. I said, he gonna drop nothing but knowledge on you he's like i try to get him to argue he just won't argue i said he will probably beat your brains out i said but he probably like killing you with knowledge too yeah and then i said what's your problem he said miss pat i where

i come from you just don't mix race i said it's 2017 i said my mama told me years ago that white people was better than me never look you in the eye and you're the devil. And that was a damn lie. I said, so you got to overcome that bull crap people put in your head as a kid. I said, there's nothing wrong with your wife being married to a black man. I said, your problem is you know how racist you was before she went out and put this black man into your family. I said, everything you hated about us now one is help raising your white baby and his wife i said do your kids like him yeah they love him

they always bragging about his chicken i said well dude you can't compete with no black people chicken you want to go out and make your kids a piece or something you just ain't gonna win on the chicken we had a long conversation you know he actually started crying mark he actually started crying he teared up and i told him i said it's gonna be all right i said it's all about change open your mind open your mind stop seeing a certain race of people certain way a certain way because that's how you was raised wow it's an interesting situation man i like them conversations like my husband other people won't have those conversations but that's what's wrong with this country we won't talk about touchy shit like race yeah come into my world because i want to come into your world i want to understand mark maron like i want mark maron to

understand miss pat yeah and you got through to that guy yeah i mean you know he he called me on facebook and i said anytime you want to talk any question you want to have about your kids, black daddy, I'm here for you. Have you heard from him? Yeah, he did. He hit me up and say, I really needed that. Wow. He said, I really needed that. Because, you know, especially with white people, they don't want to be called racist. So you got to be you got to be real careful who you talk to about race, you know you can have somebody you're racist and i don't say that like my dentist i told him i said i told him i said i said you're not i said i said you're ignorant you don't want to open your eyes i said i don't want to call you racist doctor but you're ignorant yeah you don't want to open your minds because he had this whole thing about affirmative action i was thinking about about it today because now they're attacking affirmative action.

Why would my white kid have to fight? Why do my white kid have to get looked over for some black kid? I said, because white people had a 400 year head start. Plus, you're rich. So they're going to let your child in any damn way. Shut up. I tell him that all the time. Your white baby is not going to get denied because you're rich.

You got to tell him to be black for five minutes. Yeah, I try to tell him to be black for five minutes. He's scared. And then, you know, I always say, I got a black friend. I said, you ain't got no black friend like me. You got them black friends who read and agree. Y'all read the same book and both of y'all like your chicken unseasoned. You ain't got no black friend who gonna put season salt on her chicken and who gonna you gonna come over to the

house and we ain't gonna we gonna treat you like everybody else you gonna get your stale white ass up and dance to too short like the rest of us you don't have no black friend like me he must love when you come for your teeth cleaning you know i was in his office when Obama, he hated Obama. And he would just get so red. Oh, Obama is a communist. Obama is this. I said, look, look, doctor.

I said, let me say this. I said, you worried about Obama so much, but you say you believe in God. I said, if you believe in God, then your God is going to take care of you. I said, if you keep on talking about Obama, you're going to have a heart attack. I said, when you have a heart attack, I'm not going to pay my co-pay. I'm going to step over your ass and go out the door. That's what I told him. Well, I hope you're right.

I hope everything's going to be okay, and I'm glad that things are working out for you. Things are working out, Mark. I mean, I'm happy. I'm blessed. Sometimes I wake up and can't believe that I'm here in my career. You know, as a comic, you've been around, you told me the other night, 30-something years. You know the ups and downs when you're like, man, I need to quit this. This ain't going to work out.

I should have took that prostitution job in 82. Maybe I could be a madam now. I'm just kidding, y'all. It's really hard working. And I truly believe that it's just it's it's really hard working and i i truly i truly believe that it's finally paying off yeah and i and i hope the book's a big success and i'll tell you what i did you gotta do the audio i did the audio it was long it's hard oh my god it was i was like my voice went out and it was so crazy because uh i think i told you this other day

i still in special chapter five that was really touching for me. For me to tell that story that I never told anybody. And I called my sister and I said, just tell me that this happened. And she said it did. And my husband was even shocked. Which story is that? We don't want to spoil it, but what's it about? It's about, it's a violation story.

And so my husband's like, she never told me that story. And that was something that when I decided to write this book and I talked to her about it and I was like, what do you think? And she was like, you should tell it. And I was like, I'm scared. I'm going to be embarrassed. And then I started to realize it's so many other people out there that have been through what I've been through. Why not tell the story? And it was a healing point for me, Mark, because that was pain that I kept hitting.

That was pain. I kept a smile on my face, but, because that was pain that I kept hitting. That was pain. I kept a smile on my face, but I never talked about that. Really? Never. Until we wrote this book. And I've been married over 20 some years and he never heard that story. Wow. Only me and my sister knew about that.

Yeah. So when I went to go read it, it was when I went to go read it, I was like, oh, Lord, chapter five. And I cried so much and the guy who was listening to new york was crying and the guy who was in the studio crying i'm starting to cry i don't even know what it is and it was i mean but it was beautiful i mean when i'm reading the book you can hear the pain yeah then after i come out of that chapter and then you know i started to you know perk back up yeah but that's some that was some real pain for me it was a healing point by sharing it did it did it free you a little it freed me because you know how when you

got secrets and it's always there yeah and you you don't tell anybody it's like a knot yeah and i was a i was able to bust that knot yeah and i was like finally i'm free and so now my husband know my husband you know like i said i never told him he still loves me yes he do see yes he do but you know even my kids even my kids is like you never told that story too painful no it's too painful and shameful. It was very, it was both. So, but I mean, I'm good now. I mean, you know what, Mark? I'm looking for a way to make a joke out of it.

Well, I mean, but the fact that one thing I know from doing this is that when you share those parts of yourself, it does help a lot of people. Yes. Because there's a lot of people walking around with shame, walking around with secrets that they shouldn't be ashamed of because a lot of times it wasn't their fault at all. And, you know, when somebody else does it, they feel less alone. They feel more maybe able to put it out in the world and free themselves. So it's a great service that you do with that. And I mean, I realize this. I'm not I thought it just happened to black girl. Yeah, but no, no. i thought teenage pregnancy only happened in the

ghetto when i became a comic and started talking about me and my daughter's 14 years apart women of all walks of life will come up to me i had my baby young i was like what did she happen to everybody yeah no yeah i mean it was a comedy was an eye opening for me and that's why i started i just i wanted to share so much to let people know it's not about how you start. It's about how you finish. Yeah. And that's what it's all about. You know, it was a rough start. I was born on a broken foundation. Yeah. You know, and you rebuilt. I rebuilt that foundation. And that's what it's all about. Well, that's a beautiful way to end. Thank you, Pat.

Thank you, Mark. All right. way to end thank you pat thank you mark all right again that was uh miss pat and her book uh rabbit the autobiography of miss pat is available now for pre-order and is in stores tomorrow august 22nd what can i say about brent weinbach well i can tell you this uh for most of the interactions i had with him for years, he just made me uncomfortable, a little nervous. I found myself a little off center around him. He kind of occupies a unique time zone that is his. And I always thought that there was some other element to him that I took personally, that

I manufactured according to him, that there was a certain amount of fuck you to him making me uncomfortable or making audiences a little uncomfortable. And it was something I wanted to talk to him about. And we eventually got to it. It turns out he's just a very sort of unique intelligence. He's got a unique take on things and unique intelligence. And, you know, he's a very funny guy in a very specific way that is his own uh his stand-up special brent weinbach appealing to the mainstream is now available on amazon prime and on cso for as long as cso is still around you can follow him on twitter to find out other stuff he's doing but uh but i you know it was good conversation not unlike many many conversations that I have going in.

I don't always know what it's going to be, but sometimes I have prejudgments about the person. Many times I don't necessarily say what they are. But in this case, I tell him what was on my mind. And he alleviated my concerns about the part of his personality that I thought was mocking me. So this is me talking to Brent Weinbach, the comedian. You know, it's interesting, Brent, that it's you. You know, it's interesting, Brent, that it's you. So now I'm having this mild little bit of a frenetic emotional moment here.

And out of all the people to have show up for that, I wouldn't have thought that you'd be the guy that was going to get it. Oh, really? Why? Well, I don't know. You and I don't talk much. And my own projection of what I think you might be, which you're probably wrong, is sort of like, I don't know that guy's emotional spectrum necessarily. Actually, I'm very interested in your emotional spectrum.

You are? Well, I've asked you about it in the past. How have you framed it? I've asked you. I don't know why I asked you this at one point, but I asked you if you ever cry. Do you remember that? The conversation we had about crying?

I do cry, yeah. And I was curious. What did I say? You said you cried when Greg Giraldo died. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know. I had questions about why you crying, because I'm, I don't know. It's interesting to me.

The thought of you crying is interesting to me. Really? Well, yeah, because you seem like kind of a hard kind of guy and or kind of almost tough in a way that's interesting that you know this is interesting because because like it and i think this will be revealed about both of us is that you know the people that really know me you know uh you know see through that shit pretty easily and i think i'm fairly so it's a front no it's not a front it's just natural defenses right it's i don't i wouldn't call it a front but like you know you're a comic you've been for one a long time uh you know we're sort of a

ragtag group of uh you know swaggering you know uh insecure sensitive people so how those insecurities manifest in any one of us is what it is, right? So yeah, I'm a little, I can be a little intense and a little intimidating and crabby and maybe a little hostile, but yeah. But you're soft on the inside. I'm a very sensitive person. Yeah, I cry more than is probably necessary. How often do you cry, would you say? Would you cry once a week, you think? A little. I mean, like what degree of crying like i don't do that too often anymore yeah i mean i wait do you did you used to do that often where

it's uncontrollable and you're making noise like that yeah i don't think i've done that in a long time uh i can't even remember if i ever have of you i don't i mean i did when i was a kid but right i know i don't cry often at all and i don't i don't think i I ever have, have you? I don't, I mean, I did when I was a kid, but I, no, I don't cry often at all. And I don't, I don't think I'm probably not that emotional or at least I kind of keep my emotions in check in some kind of weird way. Okay, so that, so like, that's what I would assume

about you, but, but you got a little waffley at the end. Obviously, I mean, I'm conscious of that, you know, it's not like I'm devoid of emotion, but you know, or incapable of it. But that's your front then. Yeah, or something, yeah. Maybe I think that emotions are cor emotion, but, you know, or incapable of it. But that's your front then. Yeah, or something. Yeah. Maybe I think that emotions are corny or something, you know?

Right. So you stifle them intentionally. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe so. Yeah. But like, I guess like, you know, like I got choked up. I got choked up yesterday, you know, I was watching a Vietnam documentary.

Okay. Just watching a movie or something. Yeah. And I, you know, when people talk to me in here, a lot of times I get choked up. Do you really? All the time. Okay, so you've cried almost or got choked up on the podcast. Many times.

What was an example? Well, it's just when people are telling me stories about their life, even if they're not tragic or even that necessarily, you know, just people's personal struggle. Something sweet or compelling, yeah. Well, yeah, just moments. Like if somebody I'm talking to gets emotional, I'll get emotional immediately.

Like a lot of times I've had to stifle it. But, you know, tears have run down my face. Really? Yeah, with Jenny Slate, with Michaela Watkins. People, like if people were talking about their family or about a story about their life, you know, I'm very emotionally invested in it. And like, I get, you know, I can feel it.

That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I don't know why you would think, I don't think I'm tough. I think I'm, you know, I can be intimidating and a little bit dickish. Well, you know, here's an interesting thing is that you, I don't know, some people have this thought of you being abrasive or something. I'm abrasive i've actually always known you to be a nice guy actually yeah to me at least yeah you've always been nice to

me at least i don't know but maybe maybe that's a front you know i don't think i'm fronting at all i mean i think i'm i'm reacting i the affronting is a weird word which would mean which would imply that there's some intention to it yeah and in fact you know there was um the my first encounter with you which was a one-sided encounter it was just me going to see you perform right um i uh it was in the early 2000s you know around the time i was starting comedy yeah and um i usually would leave open mics um are we recording by the way yeah oh. Oh. I would usually in those days I would stick around for the whole open mic

just to be you know part of the community. Just to kind of be supportive. To act like you were a person capable of hanging out. No.

Well yeah. I mean I like I liked hanging out. Yeah. You know there was a camaraderie between the open mic comedians and stuff.

But anyway I would leave early if I wanted to see a show at the Punchline. I started in the Bay Area. Yeah. I don't know. You may or may not know. No, I knew that. And if there was a headliner I wanted to see, I would leave early, and I would feel kind of bad.

And anyway, when I told the guy who ran the open mic, his name was Tony Sparks, I remember telling him, oh, sorry I have to leave early, and you know how I'd like to stay, but I want to catch a show at the Punchline. He said, oh, who's performing? I said, oh, Marc Maron. And I hadn't seen you before. Yeah. But I wanted to. And he said, oh, yeah, he's really funny and also really nice guy.

So my first impression of you, your personality, was like, oh, this is going to be a nice guy kind of thing. Yeah. And that stayed that way, actually, as long as I've known you, actually. Then we had a regular-sided conversation in, I think, around 2005, and it was backstage at the Steve Allen Theater. We were going to do Ron Lynch's show. Well, actually, at the time, Craig Anton and Brendan Small's show as well. And you were back there, and this was before you started the podcast and stuff,

and I don't know, it was just the two of us back there, and you were just, you know, you asked me how I was doing, and I just thought, yeah, this guy's a nice guy. I don't know, I just, you know, so, you know, and then later I started hearing, oh, yeah, he's kind of like mean or something, and I was like, I don't know, I always thought you were a nice guy. I know, I would, there would be no reason for me to be mean to you. Oh, really? Okay.

Just on instinct, my instinct about you was like, well, this guy's operating in a slightly different time zone than the rest of us. Like the future? Sure. No, I'm just kidding. Well, no, just in the sense that you're a guy that my interpretation initially and then after seeing you do the work you do, I think I went through some – there was probably some struggle with how I interpreted you. There are guys that do the kind of things that you do who are actually doing it to overcompensate somehow. you know who are who are actually doing it to overcompensate somehow you know to like you know like look how weird i am like because you know they don't necessarily have the confidence or

or the skill set to to you know do the step you know before that which is try to construct something like if i'm just really weird you know then you know i will transcend uh criticism yeah yeah you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I know those guys. They're emotional con men in a way. I don't know if that's quite right, but they're avoiding something by doing weird shit.

But once I got the hang of you, and after I first saw you, upon meeting you, I knew that you were sort of an awkward, bright guy. But after seeing you know upon meeting you i knew that you were like sort of an awkward bright guy you know and but but after seeing you i like you know i respected you because i'm like well this is the way this guy thinks he's not trying to to do anything but who he is i mean that's true i mean you know but the truth is i i if i was to ever i never really did comedy in a sort of more conversational way or like right no i remember seeing you early on only because i was never i that didn't feel natural to me you know to be you know kind of just uh casual on stage you know yeah so i always do you do that in life well i mean i'm obviously more casual talking to you or, you know. Yeah. But I think that probably deadpan is sometimes a way people might describe me,

even just on a personal level sometimes, you know. Yeah, but not your performance really. No, but I always thought of stand-up as a performance though. And I always kind of, I felt, it felt more natural for me to treat it more like a presentation and be more deliberate about the way I performed rather than being kind of conversational casual. Cause that just didn't seem natural to me. And it didn't feel, that didn't feel natural. Yeah. It just didn't feel comfortable. Right. So you weren't really necessarily interested in exploring the nuances of your

personal struggles or your parents or, you know. Yeah. Well, no, but I think actually, I think I do express my personal experiences, but it's in a more abstract way, you know, and through whatever the bits I might do, you know. Okay, well, like, okay, so you grew up in the Bay Area? No, I grew up in Los Angeles. You did? Yeah. Where?

In Hollywood, in Laurel Canyon. Really? Yeah. And like, are your parents in show business? My dad was kind, yeah, my dad was, yeah. He was a writer and producer. For? For movies, like smaller budget movies.

In fact, I noticed that you had, you have a picture of Todd Browning's Freaks. And my dad apparently made the first movie since Freaks to use real sideshow freaks. What movie was that? It was called The Freakmaker, also known as The Mutations. And I think it came out in 73, I think. Is he still around? Yeah. Now, you grew up in the house with him?

Yes. How many siblings you got? There's four of us total. I have three. And you're the oldest? I'm the oldest, yeah. You are? I'm house with him? Yes. How many siblings you got? There's four of us total. I have three. And you're the oldest? I'm the oldest, yeah. You are? I'm the big brother, yeah.

And your folks still married? No. Okay. Yeah. Your mom's still around? Yes. They're both still around, yeah. Okay.

And she lives here too? Yes. They both live here? Yeah, they live in Hollywood. They live in separate houses now, but yeah. Okay, right. Now, was your dad, so he was kind of like a, are you telling

me he was a b movie writer producer i one might categorize it as that yeah i mean he made another movie but he actually got some pretty good names in the movies i mean in that freak maker movie donald pleasance is in it it's directed by jack cardiff yeah um tom baker of doctor who was in it and he made another movie called Blind Man's Bluff, otherwise known as The Cauldron of Blood, which actually starred Boris Karloff. And so there's some people. He also apparently made the first...

He directed them or he... He didn't direct any of them, but he produced them and wrote them. He wrote them. And he supposedly made the first movie about LSD. I mean, he claims it's the first movie about LSD called Hallucination Generation. Wow.

So were you part of that? This is all pre, like, my time around, you know. So, like, so you weren't old enough to, you know, to have, he was probably part of that whole Laurel Canyon community. Like, was it, they felt him. He was in New York for a while. I mean, he was kind of all over the place, yeah. But, like, were there, were you guys, you know,

hanging out at the Zappa house or anything like that? Or like. No, no. No, no. He was just. I would have liked to. I wouldn't have appreciated it until I was older. But yeah.

So, but so you grew up with your father that by the time you were conscious, he had this history. What was he doing by the time you were. Well, he was still trying to make movies in the 80s. And he, he did actually have some of the freaks from the freak maker come over sometimes you know which one this guy named Popeye yeah that not those ones but yeah this guy Popeye who he goes by Popeye yeah he pops his eyes out of his yeah he's got that Marty Feldman disease yeah I guess oh yeah

yeah I guess you know but I feel like like marty philip had a different thing going on but he could bug his eyes out they would pop out it would actually pop out of the sockets so they were glass eyes or no they were real eyes they would dangle they wouldn't dangle even because the sockets would still kind of hold them but he would be able to pop them out of the sockets how old are you when you meet popeye probably six or seven i don't know something like that eight that must have been both frightening and exciting at the same time it didn't bother me i wasn't scared no um then there was this woman named the alligator woman who would come by the skin i imagine yeah skin problem she had some

sort of skin thing with um leathery leathery skin yeah yeah she would hang out too yeah yeah and your dad liked them they just they were fun to be around yeah my dad had a lot of weird interesting friends yeah so was that how like you like i'm trying to like get a sense of i'm trying to project you know a whole world onto you does your dad have a lot of memorabilia uh around yeah some some stuff yeah but not like clutter i know he has clutter definitely he has a lot of i mean but his the stuff he has around is more just, I don't know, weird little antiques and things,

not antiques, but just little gadgets and things just, you know, like a fake bird or something, you know, I don't know. Is he still working? Yeah,

a little bit. What happened in the eighties is he mainly, he's decided to, he bought some land in the seventies and started building houses. Oh, so he got into real estate. Yeah. I mean, I guess you could call it that and he rented them out and that's kind of what he does but he did make a movie so he got some rental properties a lot of people do that in la it seemed to be a smart thing to do well the land was really cheap in the 70s and

he bought in really underdeveloped air like non-developed areas the house that i grew up in mainly well we moved in when i was when i was five, he started building it in the 70s and got this land for really cheap. There was no houses up there at the time. It was just a dirt road. Wow. I don't know. He had a, yeah.

Sort of adventurous, huh? Yeah, he was like a door-to-door salesman for a while. He's done a lot of weird things. You should have him on the podcast. You get along with him? Yeah, we get along okay. I'm closer with my siblings. Yeah?

Yeah. Are they all here too? Not anymore. They moved away. They kind of followed me to the Bay Area and then I left the Bay Area. When did you go up there? So you went to high school? I went for college.

Yeah, what college did you go to? UC Berkeley. Now, what were your focuses? When did you decide that... Stand-up comedy? Or that show business was a thing. Were you always a performer? I started playing piano when I was 15.

I played jazz piano for a while. Seriously? I got... Wait, are you saying seriously or asking if I did it seriously? If you did it seriously. I thought you were saying maybe, perhaps saying,

seriously, you were doing that? No. I played... were saying maybe, perhaps saying, seriously, you were doing that? No. I played, yeah, I was playing seriously. Well, I definitely got serious about it in my later teens and kind of somewhat early 20s. I was playing professionally for a while, actually. In jazz bands? Mainly solo and background music at hotels and stuff. Oh, yeah?

Yeah, it wasn't the most glamorous job. Um, mainly solo and background as background music at hotels and stuff. Oh yeah. Yeah. It wasn't the most glamorous job, but it was, I did it for a full time living for a while, actually for a few years. It seems like 15 is almost like late to be getting to piano. It is. It is. I, that, that was actually why I got so into it. I think is, um, when I was actually, it was really when I was 14, I started, um, getting

into jazz and, um, particularly Brazilian jazz, bossa nova stuff. And I started learning pieces on the piano. My mom used to be a classical pianist. And so she kind of helped me through some sheet music when I was 14. And I was really into that. And then my parents said- You learned how to read music, you mean?

And then like- She was, yeah, my mom kind of taught me how to read music a bit. And she was kind of helping me through the sheet music to some- Where's she from some show beam stuff. She grew up in Torrance, but her family's from the Philippines.

She was the only one born in the United States. She's Filipino? Yeah. So that part of your act is true? Actually, pretty much everything I say is true on stage. Oh, good. But it might be some abstraction of truth, though, in some way, you know?

But anyway, yeah, so when I was 15, Oh good. But it might be some abstraction of truth though. Right. In some way, you know. But anyway, yeah, so they, when I was 15 they offered to pay for lessons for me, jazz lessons, and I said, all right, I'll see you. They said, you know, you can see if you like it, and if you don't like it, you know, move on. And I ended up really liking it, and I got into it. So you know, they never forced me into playing piano when I was like a younger kid. Yeah.

And since I kind of got into it in a more organic way, I really got into it, and I got really into jazz because of that. So when you were in high school, at 15, you're picking up on this shit, which I imagine was sort of off the beaten path of most other kids. Yeah. But, you know, there was a lot of the kind of stoners were into jazz also, and I played with them them we played music together and stuff and you weren't a stoner no i didn't i never did any kind of drug ever in my life yeah

and um but i had a lot of friends that did high school and stuff and um yeah those kids were into music a lot of the kids who were into you know punk and rock and stuff were right liked jazz too and would the closest thing you could get to sort of being in a rock band or something in high school you know, punk and rock and stuff. Right. Liked jazz too. And would, the closest thing you could get to sort of being in a rock band or something in high school was jazz band. Yeah. So a lot of rocker kind of kids were in jazz band because it was kind of the most, the closest thing. And I was in jazz band too. And so I kind of associated with them because of that.

So that's interesting. So you learned how to play with people and, you know, did you guys, were you guys, I had a little band in high school yeah yeah but the jazz band in of itself like i i got i got i signed up for jazz band and i i was told i could be in it if i learned how to read music i was i was brought in as the bass player oh really you played jazz band in high school i didn't last because i never learned how to read music, and I didn't know what was going on, and I thought I could just...

I literally thought that, well, the bass isn't that important. They won't notice if I don't know what I'm doing. Oh, yeah. It's ridiculous. That's very important, yeah. It's so important. Bass is one of the most important parts.

Yeah, it was like, I don't know what the fuck I was thinking. This other kid was there, and he didn't know how to read music, and he was a bass player, and he was high all the time. I think I lasted a matter of weeks. The guy was very mad at me. All you need to know is your scales. If you learn your scales, you could have survived.

Yeah, well, I know now, but I regret that I didn't sort of lock in then and apply myself to it. I think I've just, I don't know, I thought I could get away with it. It was very embarrassing. I think I've just, I don't know, I thought I could get away with it. It was very embarrassing. I mean, it is pretty low register too sometimes and sometimes you can get away with it.

Not really because the rhythm section is kind of the... Oh, you know what you do? You do what you were talking about earlier. You just kind of be really confident about it and it's devoid of criticism, you know? Just act as if you're like... I'm doing my own thing over here. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I'm improvising. Yeah, exactly. I'm an innovator. Yeah, you're taking it to the next level. Sure. Yeah, some people get away with that. Yeah. You better have a full genius act to pull that shit off.

Well, yeah. So you're playing in bands. What was your band? It was a jazz band. You know, we just played jazz stuff, you know. And how good were you at going- Did you get out there? I mean, could you at going, did you get out there? I mean, were you a monk guy?

I liked Ahmad Jamal. I liked Oscar Peterson, although I can never play as well as Oscar Peterson. Bill Evans? Bill Evans is definitely like, I think if you've heard me play, people would think I was influenced by him. I was mainly,

I used the similar voicings to the way that he would play. Voicings, what does that mean when you do it? Just like chord arrangements and stuff. You know, just the way that the, usually playing kind of compacted ways of playing chords, you know, so that there's kind of a little more dissonance maybe or something. Just like playing notes really close to each other. Do you still play? I play for fun every now and then, you know.

But it sounds, this like an interesting thing to me because I've talked to other people that were, like Eric Andre and... Yeah, he studied bass, yeah. Yeah, and Brendan Small has figured out a way to fully integrate his virtuosity into his comedy as well. So you're in a jazz band of your own and you're playing jazz band at the school,

so you were pretty serious about it, right? I was pretty serious about music at one point, but I always actually wanted to do comedy. Why? Why would you want to do that? I loved comedy. I always watched it. Any chance I could watch stand-up comedy on TV,

I would watch it all the time in the 80s and the 90s. Who did you like? Who did you gravitate towards? I mean, in the 80s, stand-up-wise, I liked Charles Fleischer and Harry Basil. Interesting. And Mark Curry. This is when you were in high school.

No, even before that. I mean, I would say elementary school and junior high. Fleischer makes sense yeah well fleischer's special there was a special he did and i just it was really multimedia almost kind he was playing instruments and stuff and doing a lot of voices and stuff yeah i always really liked visceral comedians you know harry basil did that as well well he did more of a uh more mainstream sort of prop-driven. I always loved props.

You do a little prop work? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, Harry would do the Risky Business Dance. Yeah, he did a lot of movie references and stuff. Fleischer was something to watch. He was just really just, I just love fun silly stuff have you have you been fortunate enough

to meet Charlie yeah I did a show with him yeah maybe once or twice you know yeah that's cool it's cool to meet

these people that I admired when I was younger but it feels to me that you guys might have like a good vibe between you did you talk to him we didn't really

get a chance to talk to him actually but you know I mean whatever yeah know, I mean, whatever. Yeah, he's an interesting guy. He's kind of quirky, huh? That's a nice word. You know, he invents things sometimes. And, you know, he definitely has a, like, he's really that guy.

Not unlike you. You know, you don't think he's, like, you know, he'll repeat himself as people with acts do and as we all do. But, you know, he's really an odd good dude. Do you know him pretty well? Was he on the show before? He did a live one. Oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I've seen him at the comedy store and I've talked to him. And, you know, when I was a doorman at the comedy store, you know, he was already over the arc of, you know, like it was already the, you know, the mid 80s, late 80s. Roger Rabbit hadn't come out yet though, right? I think it had. Oh, okay. Yeah. And, but, you know, he would do his thing,

but it was always really good. You know, you'd only know that it was repetitive if you seen him over and over again, but he would do a type of crowd work that was always pretty funny. It was sort of, he had a built in kind of method of doing crowd work. Uh-huh, yeah, sure. In a certain way. And then he'd do a type of crowd work that was always pretty funny. He had a built-in kind of method of doing crowd work in a certain way. So he was pretty controlled and calculated about what he did? Well, he had a context.

I think within it, he could play. I liked Rowan Atkinson a lot. He was one of my biggest influences. I mean not really probably known as a stand-up comedian but just his performance bits that he would do. Yeah he's very funny. He did a lot of

he had an HBO special that I think is one of the funniest things. Yeah he's very like you know very physical but subtle physical in a way.

Yeah I mean just yeah funny faces I mean it got really my the first thing that I really loved was the Marx Brothers and Harper Marx. Yeah, did your dad turn you on to that? Yeah, my dad did, yeah.

And, you know, I saw all the Marx Brothers movies when I was younger. Those are the kind of the, that was like my first, you know, comedy thing that I really loved the most, you know. Yeah. Marx Brothers. And Harper was always my favorite until I got into my 30s, and I started that i think chico is my favorite actually chico is a guy because he's kind of underrated between the the main three you know don't you think it's either groucho or harpo that people like right but chico no one really says that's their favorite but i realize he's actually the funniest one in a way because he's he's kind of a straight man to harpo a lot. And he's abrasive and he's got that weird Italian accent.

The fake Italian accent is so funny to me. I mean, I took it for granted when I was a kid, but looking at it now, I'm thinking, that's just so ridiculous. He's a straight man, yet he has this ridiculous Italian accent for no reason other than that it just sounds funny. That's so funny.

And he plays piano too. That's kind of cool. Yeah. And then there's those rare people that that that miss zeppo you know the there there's there's a zeppo marks that was maybe one or two movies monkey well my he's in my favorite one which is monkey business yeah that's that's the ultimate yeah yeah but zeppo's like definitely the straight man to the to the rest of them. To the chaos. Yeah. But, yeah, Chico's really the gem, the hidden gem of the Marx Brothers. That's funny.

Kind of, I think. I don't know. I talk to, like, it's funny when people go off the, you know, off, you know, the expectation about favorite, you know, like, I guess specifically with you and Chico, but like I had Billy West in here who's a Larry Fine fanatic. Oh, well, yeah, I could see that. Let's see, because, I mean, either people like Curly because he's kind of the stupidest one, I guess,

and then Moe is the meanest one, and Larry is this in-between guy. You know, Larry is the Chico of the Stooges, I think, right? Yeah, you should talk to Billy. Yeah, I actually get that, though, too, actually. By the way, come to think of it, and I didn't really start appreciating The Three Stooges until I was older for some reason. When I was a kid, I, for some reason, thought it was too big for me.

It was too- Too broad. Something, you know? Too childish in a way? I don't know. Or something. But I didn't really like it when I was a kid. But as I got older, I started revisiting The Three Stooges, and I was like, this show is

really funny. And Larry is actually really funny because he's so, first of all, he just looks ridiculous with his hair. His bald. And he was always slightly befuddled and kind of like the last guy to get something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's definitely underrated. Yeah, Larry's underrated. I like Larry.

Yeah, no, now that you mention it, yeah, definitely. I totally get that. Larry and Chico. Chico, yeah. They should do the cop movie. That should be the name of your next show. Larry and Chico. Yeah, no, now that you mention it, yeah, definitely. I totally get that. Larry and Chico. Larry and Chico, yeah. They should do the cop movie. That should be the name of your next show. Larry and Chico, yeah. Just a sort of deconstruction and Weinbachian analysis of Chico and Larry.

In a way, they're kind of in a way the most nuanced in a way or something. I think that's true. Yeah. I think that's true. Yeah. Yeah, like it could get by you. You see them as just a you know, part of a, they're the middle of the process to get to the thing. Right, yeah. Because it's like, because you know

with, okay, with the Marx Brothers, Groucho and not to dwell on this for too much, too long, but Groucho is very he's very cerebral and witty. Yeah. Harpo is playing to the visceral and, you you know guttural yeah thing and then right chico is this in between thing you know which is so cool actually he's the best of both worlds actually when you think of it you know because he's both you know i think yeah

so that's cool that's a good revelation i'm glad we had that we had a breakthrough yeah yeah exactly um but um so you're playing the music. Yeah, but anyway, no, I always liked, I mean, but I was like writing material in high school. I always wanted to do. In what form did that? I mean, I was trying to write a stand-up act because I always watched, I mean, I watched Russell Simmons' Deaf Comedy Jam a lot. I was, any stand-up show on TV, you know&E you need the improv whatever I was always watching it and so I always wanted to do it yeah I just didn't know how to approach it in my own way I always

thought I kind of needed to do it like Seinfeld or something you know uh-huh um but yeah but at one point I realized I didn't didn't need to do what what would have what even though there was people like Andy Kaufman and Stephen Wright who yeah you know I thought I I don't know why it didn't occur to me that I could do it more like they did it yeah right um and they ended up being influences too but for some reason Seinfeld I always thought I thought I needed to be Seinfeld for some reason yeah but it just that wasn't right you know that never was really that wasn't me you know so I was like I think I think I just had it in my mind that i was that i could be seinfeld or could be like seinfeld but um i'd like to see you it just took a moment to realize that i'd like to see you do like you know one

seinfeld bit well i my the original stuff i was writing was in the vein of a seinfeld type and eventually i ended up doing it as a bit in my regular act as somebody I'm not, you know? Or like that. So you thought of that. As a response to maybe perhaps a criticism of me not acting natural on stage, what if I acted like this? Yeah.

That's actually in my special that is. The new one? The new one, yeah. So it's been around that long, that bit? A lot of the material in the special that just came out is stuff from earlier material of mine. This is the appealing to the mainstream special. Yes.

Where can people see that? On CISO, which unfortunately I heard is not maybe gonna be around. I don't know, that's a rumor I've been hearing more and more is that it might not be around. Do you have it on, do you have it on, stored? Do you have it? I have a copy.

You have a copy? I have a copy, but hopefully it will end up somewhere else. That if it does go away on CISO, you'll maybe be able to find it on Hulu or something, hopefully. But anyway, yeah. So that bit that was, a seed of that bit was planted when you were in high school. High school and then, yeah.

And then even in part of the early half of college you know i was like this is how i'm supposed to do stand-up you know and it was but i eventually turned it into like a bit that and it's in the special and it's like you know it's kind of acting like a more observational i mean sure not no i probably do observational stuff anyway but but I mean, just a more classic kind of Seinfeld-esque comedian. And so, but it's more like a generic comedian character. Yeah. I get it.

Yeah. It's to make a point. And it kind of calls it, it makes a point about that. That's not natural for me to be like that. Yeah. And two, there's just,

it's also just about kind of just some common tropes that you see in stand-up comedy, just a lot of common isms that you see. No, I get it. Well, I think that's a tricky road to hoe in the sense that because you are so specifically yourself and you have a style which is, you know, absurd and engaged and abstract, that you got to be really good at it, which you are, to at some point go like, this is what all the other idiots think is good. I mean, something. I don't know.

It was just definitely an early response to, you know, just like, this isn't natural for me to be like that. It's natural for me to be like this, the way I'm doing it, which is deliberate and presentational. Well, so you're already working on bits and you're writing bits in high school, but when did you start working as a musician for real? Well, I started actually even a little bit doing it as a senior in high school. And then in college, i did it on and

off you know i was working at um which school again did you go to uc berkeley yeah so there was actually a club what were you studying there uh i majored in film studies and i minored in music uh-huh and um they uh there was a jazz club in town called mr ease is owned by pete escovedo the latin yeah the lat Latin jazz musician. Yeah. And his daughter's Sheila E. I don't know if people knew that. The percussionist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that's what the E stands for for Sheila. It's Escovedo. Oh, cool. Did you ever play with her? No, but I went to her birthday party once and Tony, Tony, Tony performed at it. Oh, yeah. I don't know. It was kind of a funny, surreal show.

But I would play at happy hour there at the club. So the old man liked you? Yeah, he seemed to like me. That was nice. They had a big family. Was it a Latin-themed club? No. No.

They had some Latin acts sometimes, but it was all different kinds of jazz. But I played on and off. But then I started playing full-time after college at hotels, playing just background music and stuff, and I did that for a few years. Which hotels? Primarily the one I worked at the longest was the Argent Hotel in San Francisco,

which is no longer there, but I think it's actually called the St. Francis Hotel now or something. Oh, yeah, that's fancy. It's on 3rd, and it's a little south of, it's 3rd Market, basically. I worked at the Mark Hopkins Hotel.

And you were just a guy in the lobby bar lobby uh lobby lounge playing standards standards yeah all standards although sometimes i'd slip in um non-standards uh sometimes you know i slip in my own original work and then sometimes uh i'd slip in like 80s video game music but jazz it up and stuff. Oh really? Which video games? Castlevania, Zelda, you know. Do people notice it? Sometimes people came up and be like, wait is that the music to Tetris? And I'm like yeah, give me a tip.

That's what I was playing for. Those guys, that was your audience. Sometimes, sometimes. No, actually it was really not a really fulfilling job because most of the time people were not listening and it was just purely background stuff. Sometimes people would sit down next to the piano and watch and that's nice.

When did you, did you graduate college? Yes. With a degree in film studies? Film studies and music, yeah. I was kind of working on stand-up. I didn't get serious about stand-up until right after college. What did you do your first shot up? I was doing, I did, I just talked about,

I had these jokes about semen and stuff. Yeah. And like spreading semen on toast and stuff. Yeah. I talked about wet dreams. It was like a semen-based set stuff. Yeah. I talked about wet dreams. It was like a semen-based set, basically. Those were your first ideas? Like, I'm going to go on stage.

Well, it was, that weren't my first. I mean, it was an idea I felt like, oh, let's try this. I don't know why, but it was very. It's visceral and it'll have an effect. Maybe. I think that another thing that was, I mean, it wasn't really about the content. It was about the delivery. And I was kind of really kind of trying to emulate this radio monologist named

joe frank yeah he was i used to listen to him a lot in college and uh i really liked him and i and i and i kind of thought yeah you know this is i kind of feel like the way he's really deliberate that's like how i feel like i would be a standup comedian is deliberate, you know, deliberate like that. And Joe Frank was like, you know, he's no,

like he sort of spawned a type of, uh, of radio documentary, right? That's Joe Frank. Some of it, some of it's just fictional. Yeah.

I mean, you're, you're right. I mean, some of, yeah. Or some of it's like, I know that he's got a huge following,

like Ira Glass thinks he's that guy, right? Thinks he's, i know that he's got a huge following like ira glass thinks he's that guy right thinks he's i mean he's huge yeah i mean in the radio world right i don't know his stuff he's one of those guys where it's like it's a blind spot for me and people have told me i should listen to him i mean no his stuff is i mean he some of it is i guess you would say is is non-fiction but it's it's a lot of fictional storytelling stuff you know and uh very like kind of moody kind of stuff and he has this he has this voice that you know he kind of sounds like this you know he kind of talks like that and he's not a stand-up comedian obviously some of his stuff is humorous but a lot of it's not yeah uh but the his there was a deliberateness

to it that i i was i thought that kind of spoke me. And I thought that's kind of felt like that's how I would do stand up, I think. And so my first set was really intense. My persona was like way more, you know, I think it was way more exaggerated than the way I am now, I'd say, you know. But I think that it's good to exaggerate your personality on stage in some way or another. I think you, it's, it's almost inevitable. Yeah. I think that if you're going to perform, you have to be an exaggeration of yourself. So you were that conscious about that? The, the, the, the idea was not, uh, you were not so much hung up on the idea of relatability as much as you were performing. Yeah, well, relatability wasn't, yeah, that wasn't a concern really, but performing was, yeah, definitely. It was always about like finding a voice, you know,

that was what was important to me, you know, finding, establishing, you know, the way I wanted to. Establishing someplace to land, because you do other voices and you do other. Go into other personalities, sure. It was important to, I think finding a voice is the most important thing in stand-up comedy. Right, right.

So that was always what made it hard for me to get serious about comedy was not knowing what my voice was until it clicked all of a sudden. Yeah. It kind of clicked through listening to Joe Frank. Really? Yeah.

So listening to somebody else's voice is kind of what clicked for me. Sure. I mean, something's going to inspire you. Yeah, something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, how was it for you? Like, because, like, you know, I came up with Cross, with David Cross, you know, and I think

you guys are similar in some ways in that, not so much personality, but that in once you locked into the bit, no matter how it was going, you were in it. Definitely. I never, I always never like to show weakness on stage if i'm having a bad set i never call attention to it because i feel like then you're gonna like i don't know it's like you're that's just gonna make it worse i think you know if well you're but you weren't engaging that part of your personality up there anyways you weren't gonna be the guy that was gonna like you know make light of the fact that you weren't

doing well in order to turn the boat around. I want to turn the boat around a different way, though, without having to acknowledge that I'm doing poorly. Right. And sometimes, you know, successfully would do that. Like what's your go-to save when you're bombing? Well, this isn't a go-to anymore, but one go-to I had developed at one point, this is actually, I developed this some years into doing standup was I would call out and not like I would call out a table that, and say,

I like these guys cause they're not, they're kind of rebels like me. You know that like I do kind of unconventional comedy and they kind of do unconventional audience work in that they don't laugh. And, and I like that. I relate to that cause I'm, you guys are rebels like me. I like that you guys aren't convinced'll be connected i wish it's like so how boring is it that all these all these other people are just laughing even though

they wouldn't be i just i kind of make it sound like every like they were they i just blame one table so that everyone else would actually start to think that they don't want to be like that table or something yeah it's kind of a did it work did it save you yeah yeah it worked that works actually but i would say like oh it's so boring that the these people are just going to come to a comedy show and laugh yeah you know how that's just so predictable exactly and so and that would actually get the crowd that would actually kind of that was a that was a good save actually but i mean it didn't all that didn't always work well but you came up doing those one-nighters which i I like, is that you had to survive them. Definitely.

But the truth is, though, if one might perceive my stand-up to be different or something, I feel like I didn't really have much of a challenge with crowds out in the middle of nowhere than anyone else, really. Because you were something they've never seen before. Not just that, but when you get down to it, I'm really just doing jokes and I'm doing stand-up. I'm just doing comedy, and I came up doing clubs and working these one-nighters and stuff. I'm sorry, do you feel like I'm pigeonholing you?

No, no, I mean, no, no, no. But I mean, no, I mean, obviously, I do some things that are somewhat different, but when you get down to it, I'm, no, no, no. But I mean, no, I mean, obviously I do some things that are like somewhat different, but when you get down to it, I'm really just trying to make, my goal is to make people laugh. You know, I'm not, I never want to challenge the audience in any way, you know? I don't know if- The agenda was not to defy them to laugh. I mean, there's been times where I've gotten upset with an audience for not being more

on board. And then I'm like, and I think to myself, and I don't do this anymore, but I don't, I would think if you don't like that, I'm going to give you something to really not laugh about, you know, just something really abstract. And just that, just me repeating a word over and over again, that until it devolves into just a sound and, you know, or something, you know, or just, and, or just making just some weird noise on stage for, you know, like two minutes, you know, just because, you know, but that's not responsible as a comedian to do that, though. I would do that. I've gone through periods of doing that, but I don't think that's the way to approach bombing, you know.

Right. Especially if you're headlining and you're being, you know, I feel like if you're headlining a show, you're responsible for really trying to make this audience have a good time so you know when did that hit you when I was started headlining you know and you know it's just yeah I just you know yeah

but I've always I've always cared about the audience and I've never really done jokes just for me you know I want my goal is really to try to please the audience as best as possible but also do it from a genuine place, you know. Sure, what was your first like big bit where you're like, this is it, what was your closing bit?

Well, you know, I used to be, you know, I also worked as a substitute teacher for a period of time and I had a lot of material about substitute teaching and that went over really well when really well when i first started connected with it yeah i used to do a lot of urban rooms and and when i kind of started oh yeah those are my first booked shows were like like at kimball's east where's that in emeryville oakland basically yeah or like mingles in oakland yeah and um they you know these were just, you know, these were just like, you know, the audiences were pretty much entirely black crowds

and the material, the substitute teaching stuff really resonated with those crowds for some reason. Yeah. Those were kind of my big bit. That was my big bit was the substitute teaching stuff. And then like stuff about gangster, I used to have a bit, I still do it. Actually, I do bits that are 15 years old

because, I don't know that i think when there's a new audience it's always fresh to me you know but you know i i don't think there's uh i don't think there's anything wrong with that yeah i mean i don't and also it's not like you get you know there's the they're like depending on how big you are and what the expectations are i mean outside of your own sort of like pressure you put on yourself you know there's no reason to do you know older great bit there's no reason not to do older great bits yeah if you know like you're just a guy working a room and no one's there necessarily to see you yeah yeah exactly yeah i've let so many fucking bits go that i'm mad about like i don't even know if i could retrieve them oh really at this point oh because they're just like they

were not recorded in any sort of way. Well, they were, but I think I come from the school of thought where it's like, well, I recorded it, so it's over. It's so stupid. Yeah. You know, because I did some bit that I worked for fucking six months on, on the John Oliver stand-up show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That took a long time to write this plane crash bit. Also, people want to see the stuff they've seen before, too. I remember that was a thing to get used to was the bits I saw on TV of comedians that I would see at the punchline. I'd always go to any time when I started. Every week, I would see the headliner. Yeah. Come there to watch them.

And I was waiting for the bit that I'd saw on TV somewhere. Because you want to see if it worked again? No, I just kind of like to. You like the bit? It's like, I don't know. Because you want to see if it worked again? No, I just kind of like to... You like the bit? It's like, I don't know.

I think a lot of times bits don't... They can be repeated, and you can still appreciate them like a song, I think. I think so, too, sometimes. I think some people argue that if you know the punchline, you're not going to laugh as hard or something. But I think, going back to Arj Barker, for example, sometimes he has these really long setups,

and then the punchline comes. If you know the punchline, it makes the setup so much funnier because you know where he's going with it, and you definitely can re-watch stuff and still appreciate it. Right, and I think also, too, with somebody who's so performance-based as you are, that they want to see you

do the crazy thing. Yeah, yeah. Again, the visceral quality makes it more musical, and you can definitely appreciate i i at least i'd i'd like to be able to do bits that you can appreciate more than once yeah i kind of like i i wonder about that like because i like i hold myself to some standard and i did it all along before i had anybody who gave a shit about who i was or anything where like i wouldn't do any of these old materials. Like I just got done, you know, doing a new special. Right.

And I got it down to a nice tight 70 minutes. It's smooth and it worked. And once I recorded the special, like I stopped, you know, touring it where I should have toured another three months with it, but I was tired. But like,

like now, like part of me is sort of like, I don't even want to deal with those bits anymore. If you don't want to do them, then why, why, why wouldn't I, you know? Well, maybe they're just kind of, you feel tired about it or something sort of like, I don't even want to deal with those bits anymore. If you don't want to do them, then, you know. But why wouldn't I, you know? Well, maybe they're just kind of, you feel tired about it or something.

But, like, to me, and I do, you know, about bits. But sometimes if I do a bit and maybe it's a crowd I hasn't seen or something. Or there was a bit I remember I was doing at one point. And I remember this one guy was laughing in the audience so hard at it that it reminded me that it was fun to do that bit you know or like i lost sight of the bit a little bit right and then this guy was appreciating in this way that made me feel like oh yeah this this is funny it's fun you know and that that's like that's the that's the the payoff yeah yeah of it is it's sort of like you work these bits out and then you do them and if you're like me it works it works and then eventually it drifts away but then when you re-engage it and where you don't have to like not so much is invested in it the things are

already fucking this tight piece of thing you can like well i'm just gonna do this and i'm just gonna do like put it out there because i know it works you know i have to fucking you know sweat over this bit yeah and it's just sort of like i made this enjoy yeah i mean some minutes as long as you like doing them or there's new audiences to appreciate them it's always it feels it's just sort of like, I made this. Enjoy. Yeah. I mean, as long as you like doing them or there's new audiences to appreciate them, it's fun for me. Well, you've done like, what, four CDs? I guess there are four now. There's one that just came out.

But the one that just came out is sort of like an audio version of the special that came out. But yeah, I would say three, really. Three and a special yeah and um like we just made uh an allusion to the the musicality yeah musicality yeah so you see these the process of your bits and act as having that quality because i know you do some music you use recorded music sometimes yeah you play music sometimes yeah well i'm playing music is like a one-time thing i wish i did do play more music in comp in my comedy but for some reason i always felt that they were kind of separate but i know yeah definitely musicality i mean i've always you know tried to make comedy

that's more less sort of cerebral and more visceral yeah more visceral you know more of the more on the harpo marks end of things you know just just because um i just like the the guttural i like the non-verbal kind of uh you know yeah interaction you know i just think there's a pureness to that in the comedy the comedy of there's a like give me an example i don't know like an example just being physical comedy you know like there's a like give me an example i don't know like an example just being physical comedy you know like there's you laugh at it in the way that you would laugh you don't have to think i just don't like having to think about may do math while right while you're watching comedy you know like if you just watch someone make a funny face for example or say something

funny yeah in a funny way you know as opposed to the logic yeah this logic. Yeah, as opposed to like putting two and two together to get a joke, there's much more of an immediate response and there's a real purity to that, you know? And I really like that about comedy. Do you find that if you look at your life that you're a cerebral person, wouldn't you think? Yes. So the element of making these performance choices were, you know, to, I guess, not only

challenge yourself, but to transcend your own fucking trapped mind thing. Well, kind of. I mean, yeah. Well, I just know that when I, what I respond to the hardest is the visceral aspects of standup comedy, you know, as a performer, as an audience, you know, or as an appreciator of comedy. As a performer, you know, because I think that there's definitely like a turning, not a turning point, but I realized more and more as I did stand-up comedy that I was more interested in the sounds of words rather than the words themselves, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I think I've seen you do that. I think I've seen you do the thing where you repeat something until it becomes. I mean, I probably do it a lot in different ways, you know. Until it becomes noises. Yeah. I mean, maybe. Yeah, probably. You probably have. Yeah, maybe.

Yeah, I mean, maybe. Yeah, you probably have. Yeah, maybe. But I just think sounds and visuals, they just tap into something that's, you know, goes beyond language. And then, I don't know, you appreciate it in a more childlike way, in a way.

Yeah, no, I totally get that. Yeah, I wish I did more of that stuff. Well, I think that your visceral thing is your sort of persona. Yeah, yeah, I'm like... I think it sums up in this funny, I don't know, there was this memory I have of you in a car.

I think I've probably brought this up to you a couple times already, but do you know where I'm going at with this? We were in this, it was at some comedy festival, I think.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And we were in a shuttle and you're sitting up in the front, the front passenger seat and I was right behind you and you almost seemed like you were talking to yourself.

You were kind of talking to us, but you were kind of talking to yourself in a way. Yeah. And there was like all these, it was seemed like you were talking to yourself you were kind of talking to us but you were kind of talking to yourself in a way yeah there was like all these it was a friday night or saturday night and all these kind of younger people were out on the street and they you know they just look like clubber kind of people and i remember you just just kind of staring out the window and you just said look at these fucking idiots you know or something like that and it just cracked me up so much i was like cracking up the rest of the ride back to the hotel.

But I just like thought, that's your visceral thing. It's just being that, you know, that energy, you know, and exuding that kind of energy on stage. I think that's your thing. Yeah. I think I've softened up a little bit. Yeah. No. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I kind of remember that. What city were we in, dude? Chicago, maybe. Was it Chicago? Maybe it was Chicago. I'm not sure.

Like years ago, though. It's probably quite a while ago at this point yeah maybe or i don't know it might have been six years ago or something right and it was just one of those streets where it's just like dumb young club people yeah yeah yeah it's so and it's like such an alien landscape that just so cracked me up i but also what was funny is like i totally got it too i know what you meant you know it was just so funny i was cracking up but it was there was a visceral quality to that but i think that's the visceral quality right in your stand-up that i think is well yeah i throw myself into the present pretty hard you know i'm not sweeping through anything

yeah i mean that's yeah that's that's definitely a thing oh by the way i don't i actually like people to be cerebral about my comedy after the fact you know what i mean but i think in the moment i think i don't want i don't really want people to think too hard you know i don't want people to think at all actually i just want them to react i think sometimes that is an issue or was in the past where maybe people were thinking too hard like wait what does he mean by that or yeah it doesn't mean yeah it doesn't mean anything it's actually as stupid as it looks and just i think that's an interesting sort of like the the idea of absurdism in general yeah yeah you know like because i you know there's

very few people can do it well and you do it well but like it's not it's not a standard path because i think it is challenging to do it for the reasons that i said earlier which is like is this an affectation of somebody who is just you know uh you know wanting to be seen as you know like like someone who's like a genius? Or is it something that happens in earnest, which is what you're talking about, and something that's very deliberate and thought through like you're talking about? But the nature of absurdism, I think, is actually to, if not initially confused, but to defy any sort of explanation.

So you're forced into the moment and and it in in your brain wants an explanation but you have to it has to relax into the fact that there isn't one yeah well that's precisely like the kind of the crux of what i like to do is make comedy that people don't understand necessarily in their head but they just understand on some other level or they don't need to understand why it's funny they just it's funny inherently you know right that's i think that that's that to me again goes back to comedy in its purest form that's the journey just you know but not that i don't appreciate like no i get it well-crafted literary bits and stuff you know but i think there is some analogy to you you know to that to jazz improvisation yeah in its most extreme right definitely yeah so not unlike you do with

comedy you know having done those gigs haven't played with the form haven't you know talked in a general way about things that you know it's like how do we get to this pure place you know at the risk of of people going like it's i don't fucking get it right right right i mean it's always been like a goal for me to like bridge that pure place to an audience that will connect with it too. Right. You know, yeah. Well, I mean, that's why you chose comedy.

Yeah, well, it's also comedy over music, at least it was just so much more immediate and fulfilling in a way, you know? Yeah. Because you could just write stuff or come up with some bits. Go right up there. And do it that night, you know?

Right. And also not just that, but like get an immediate response where you know exactly how people are appreciating it rather than with music it's a little more ambiguous to how people if they're listening or they're are they really in are they connecting with this or what yeah because no one's going like i like that chord yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah they're not snapping their fingers nice note yeah good oh good note good good note. Good note, very good note.

No, but you just, the connection is a lot more apparent with comedy. What's your favorite bit of yours to do? How does it go? How does it work? The favorite bit? Like, what's the one where you're like, I'm excited to do this one?

Well, I don't, I mean, this is a really old bit, but it's still fun to do. I don't know. It's hard to say. I mean, it changes. I mean, always the new stuff is fun to do. Right, yeah, because you don't know. It changes all the time, but do. I don't know. It's hard to say. I mean, it changes. I mean, always the new stuff is fun to do. Right.

Yeah. Because you don't know. It changes all the time. But like, I don't know, something that's lasted over time. Yeah. I always used to do this bit, and this was like a closer for a while, but it was, it's kind of like the opposite response to acting natural was acting people maybe criticizing me for being too creepy on stage.

So then I'd act kind of creepier and kind of do a thing, and it's in the special as well, but kind of rub my head on the microphone stand and then kind of just do some kind of weird one-liners and then just kind of go into the audience and smell somebody. Yeah. I don't know. It's just a fun bit because people get in.

I don't know. People just, that's always been a fun one to do because more the response, I guess, and people being into it. And you go into sort of a character. Yeah, it's a character piece. When you go into character, because I can feel it, but do you, because what impresses me about you and about guys who do what you do is that commitment. Like, we all commit. You know, once you get the hang of it, you know, when you enter a long bit of any kind, you're like, well, this I'm not,

there's no ejecting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But when you like kind of get lost in a character, which I've done for moments, it's sort of like, there's that mixture of being all alone and,

and knowing that you're in some like, almost like a different territory. Right. And, and it's almost like that, especially if there's room to improvise in it like you're saying yeah where you're like um it's completely fucking immediate right yeah yeah yeah yeah but do you lose yourself completely or when you're in it are you like okay i'm gonna go do this you know i mean i think i'm probably i don't probably lose myself ever you know i'm

probably always there but i definitely want to create the illusion that it's somebody else. Sure. You know, like, I definitely want it to feel believable. You know what I mean? Right, right. Or like, I want it to feel really real, you know, and not feel like I'm, I want it to feel like it's a, this is a new person, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Because I just feel like, you know, if I'm fully committed to something, the nuances really shine and, you know, that's just going to make for good comedy, I think, you know? i'm fully committed to something the nuances really shine and you know that's just going to make for good comedy i think you know yeah like i just think commitment is just really important so stay in it um i think you know because i hate it when i i don't really like i mean winking is always just takes away from a joke you know or like a bit you know if somebody's doing an act out and they wink that it's like. Or they laugh at themselves. Or something, unless the laughing is really coming from a genuine spontaneous place, but

when they're doing like, if you see the same comic do the same laugh point for their self, you know, show after show, and it's, I mean, I don't know, that's just, I think, I mean, that's just winking basically. Yeah, I think it's a weird habit that happens out of insecurity. I don't think that most of, and I've done that in my career. Oh, you did fake laughs? Not fake laughs. No.

It just becomes sort of like this habit. It becomes integrated into the bit. Oh, the laugh. Kind of. Oh, so just out of habit, you were laughing at a bit. Oh, really? Interesting. Sometimes.

Oh, that's interesting. Because like any other part of a bit, like when know when i smoked a lot of pot i would have a different disposition on stage where like i would be getting a real kick out of myself and i think i honestly was but i do think that you know that was also a method to get them laughing yeah for sure definitely you know i think it is a bit disingenuous and i I think it is a trick, but I don't think it's as, you know, dubious or calculated as much as it just becomes the way you do that bit. Yeah. You know, it just becomes a beat and a bit. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, interesting, yeah.

But, you know, I don't think it's a good thing. Well, there's another one of those kinds of things that comedians do, which is after they'll say a punchline, they'll say, and I, which is to kind of create the illusion that it's off the cuff almost that they said that, you know, but it's not, you know, because they say that every time.

Right. And the and I is a cue for like, now is where you laugh, you know? So it's like, blah, blah, blah, punchline, and I, and the and I is the, that's the cue for you. That's now, that's the cue for you that's now that's the cue for you to laugh have you ever improvised with just that that word and I uh and I uh and I uh and I uh

and I use I use it in that in that the bit about the in the the comedian the generic comedian yeah yeah and I uh but that's but that's you know one. And they don't finish it, you know, but that's. Yeah, yeah, right. But that's, yeah. But that's, and that's the other cue. Yeah, then during the laughs, they're like, and I, yeah, you know. So, yeah, right. So, I don't know.

I kind of think of those as kind of signal, like artificial signalers. Signalers, you know. They're like these kind of contrived ways of signaling the audience when to laugh and so you're you're you're an assassin an assassin what do you mean well like

you know like you'll you'll pick apart the mundane and and find out you know what it hinges on and then sort of like turn it in on itself there's a little bit of fuck you to you uh no no no i i just i just no i'm just i'm just i'm just a fan of comedy and i i just i pay attention to a lot a lot of the details of what people do as comedians right and then there's things that i i just sort of see certain things and i see i notice certain patterns and then

some of those patterns i think you're not compelled at all by like, you know, I'll show you. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, not at all, no. Okay. I'll keep it positive, you know. Oh, good. I mean, there's things I definitely,

there's things I don't like, there's certain things I definitely don't like in stand-up comedy. I really don't like it when comedians feel a liberty to start getting really physical with a crowd, you know?

You know what I'm talking about? Like what? To like sit on them or something or like touch their, start touching, you know, just being really touchy.

Does that happen a lot? It's, yeah, it's kind of, you know? People, I feel like sometimes people feel like

because they have a microphone they have a liberty, they feel a liberty to just do whatever they want. I don't like when people bring people up on stage oh i do that a lot i know i know you're joking are you serious well no sometimes like i'm trying to remember how you do it what was the context i mean there's a different there's i do it in different ways but one of them is in the special there's i'd bring someone up to sing happy birthday to them in a very sort of well well, that's nice, but you know,

no, no, it's like in a very kind of, you know, R and B kind of way, you know? Right. Um,

well, no, there's something about like, I don't mind it. If people, if the comic takes care of the person, I do not, I don't like making audience members feel uncomfortable.

Contrary to what someone might actually think, you know, like anytime I involve an audience member, I really want them to be comfortable. And if they don't don't aren't comfortable i don't want them to come up actually well have you ever seen that thing where someone brings somebody on and they use them for the joke but don't really dispatch them properly though to where the person just sitting there like do i i mean yeah i well i don't i don't like being i don't like mean stuff you know but i like i there's an element of like them not knowing how to react that's

kind of funny you know if they're volunteering why not but if i always say if i ask someone to if i ask to bring them on stage i say like if you're not comfortable don't worry about it you know yeah and they'll either opt out or not because i don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable yeah i don't want to uh you know i just I'm actually just really conscious of the audience's comfort level. I don't want them to be uncomfortable. Really? Yes. I mean, absolutely.

I just don't, I want them to just have a good time. But you write a line. Come on. I mean, I understand. Okay, there's a line. Yeah, a little bit of like, yeah, a tiny bit of uncomfortability is okay as long as they're willing to be uncomfortable. Right. A little bit.

But that's only when I'm doing kind of a little bit of interaction i'm really not to be honest you know i really kind of want them to just come to the show and have a good time and just have fun you know there's no party that's sort of like this is gonna fuck them up a little no no no come on no not real i mean there's an element of of like oh, they're going to like this one. It's more just like I want them to like it and have fun with it, you know? Okay. But not an element of like I want to put them off or something, you know? No. No, no.

I don't want to put – I never want to be off-putting. I don't want to be offensive in any way either, you know? But I think that like it feels to me that like some part of you just from watching you the few times I have that like there is a tone set that is not initially comfortable. Well, that's just me being myself really. Which I can't change. I don't wanna like be phony on stage and be somebody else

just so that they like me more. But I also don't want them to dislike me. You know what I mean? I get it. So it's kinda like, it might be by nature off-putting, you know, to some people, but it's not. Once they get the hang of you. Yeah, but I would, I mean, ideally,

from the get-go they won't be put off, you know? Right, no, I think that's true, yeah. I can't be fake about, like I'm not gonna be fake about warming them up to me, you know what I mean? I just have to be real about it. Right, right, well that's respectable. It's like a balance of like being real and being myself and also pleasing the crowd too and you know you just i mean hence the title of the new special oh yeah yeah no that's it that's very much part of

yeah that's definitely a theme yeah well it's good talking to you buddy well yeah thanks so much for having me on appealing to the mainstream on cso right which hopefully will still be yeah hopefully what have you heard like tomorrow or no i don't i don't i i actually have no idea but look appealing the mainstream is the title so it'll eventually bring just find that and then it'll bring you to right all right well it's good to finally talk talk, Brent. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, certainly, yeah. Alright. Alright, that's it. That's our show. I do not have a guitar. I don't feel like playing mouth jazz. I'm gonna just

get my mind straight. I'm gonna focus in and, you know, deal with the dad situation, have some food, and try not to freak out and ruin my vacation. All right? Okay.

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