WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 843 - ​Warren Hutcherson

Episode Date: September 3, 2017

Warren Hutcherson and Marc were getting their starts in standup around the same time. Then, as Marc recalls it, Warren was suddenly a television writer and wasn't on the standup scene anymore. Warren explains how his college-age writing was responsible for his somewhat accidental entry into comedy, which led to him running the network television gauntlet, navigating the conventions and biases of Hollywood on his way to becoming a writer and showrunner on programs like The Bernie Mac Show. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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I need to do some self-promoting my new special my stand-up special on Netflix too real that's what it's called premieres tomorrow September 5th on Netflix you can go add it to your queue right now so you can stream it as soon as it's available. I'm very proud of this. It looks good. It's tight. It really is a good-looking special. Lynn Shelton did an amazing job with the direction, and all the people want to thank the people of Minneapolis again. But proud of it.

So, yeah, tomorrow, Too Real, my new Netflix special, will be available. Dig it. Did I mention today on the show I have a comedy writer and comedian? He was more of a comedian back when I knew him. Now he's more of a comedy writer, Warren Hutcherson, who I started with, who I've been wanting to talk to for a while because he was really a funny guy. We had not talked to him probably 10, 15 years, 20 years.

What's happening? Is it hot? Is it hot where you are? Is it hot and horrible? It's hot as fuck here. But it's weird in these end times to sometimes take a minute to just appreciate the relentlessness

of the fucking weather. I'm a little weird. I enjoy a bit of desert heat sometimes. Though it's a little bit much here. We're not quite in the desert, but L.A. is kind of a desert. But I kind of like it, man. I kind of like 104-degree temperatures. Because given that I don't do any drugs and I don't partake, there's something about that feeling of being baked.

There's something about that feeling of being baked. You walk outside and you're like immediately dehydrated and everything slows down. You can feel your heart slowing down. Sweat doesn't even have time to build up before it evaporates. And it's kind of, it's a bit mind altering. I don't know if anyone else feels the same way. A lot of people here, they complain about the heat heat constantly it does get hot here during the uh during the summer months i guess it has been a little relentless weather-wise i guess really what i'm doing is kind of rationalizing

the fact that every fucking day seems like either the beginning or the middle or maybe close to the end of the world ending. That's the way my brain puts it all together. Why not connect the dots? There's no reason not to connect the dots. You can connect the global warming dots. You can connect the nuclear Armageddon dots. You can connect the biblical end time dots.

It's great that this president facilitates this portal to connect all the end time dots every day out here the la is partially on fire that's the other thing the fires are here that they're they're i'm not even sure how close they are to my house they're kind of close but i don't there are people here in la literally just going on their roofs to watch the watch the city burn they They're watching it burn. I don't know if we're going to have to evacuate. I think it's still far off from here. I don't know at this point how many homes have been swallowed by flames,

but it's fire season in L.A., and that's just something we've grown to accept. It's hot, and it's fire season. But that's the positive spin. The other spin is like, oh, this is it. The facilitator has arrived. Satan's minion has come and the evangelicals are working with him. It's time to follow the instructions of the last book. Here it comes.

We just need to clear that temple mount and get that ready for the re-arrival of the Great One, and he will lift us all up right in time for the brush fires to just totally engulf Marin's house. That's actually in Revelations. We will be lifted off just in time for the brush fire to engulf Marin's house. Maybe I'm personalizing it. I don't know. Maybe. I got to look at it again i haven't i haven't checked in with the cryptic poetry of the uh the final chapter of the uh the instruction book for how to get to heaven but perhaps i shall maybe i'm not mentioned i you know i'm not trying to be morose people i'm not trying to be depressed i'm trying to have a good time i'm trying to sort of like not get hung up on dark futures or lack thereof and try to be in the present and enjoy myself. And, oh, I know what you're wondering.

I know what you're asking yourself. Mark, how's it going without the nicotine? Did you fucking go back? Did you go back to it? to the charm of the need and darkness and perverse malignant desire that is compulsive addiction? Did you give in to it? Nope. Nope. I did not. I have not. I did not. I'm still a little itchy. Got the soul itch. Got the skin skeeves, but not too bad, not too bad. It's more of a mental thing now. I guess it's been, what has it been, about a week, solid week and a day, maybe a week and a day. The physical need for caffeine and nicotine has passed

and I'm feeling better. My guts are working better. My brain feels better. My energy is better. If you call mania having more energy. Yeah, so right now I'm just kind of focusing on rebuilding my gut bugs. That's my new project. I'm doing a gut bug project. It's just that when you eat the nicotine, you drink all that caffeine. Caffeine is a diuretic. It also is a pooperetic.

And the nicotine lozenges are made with one of the TOLs, the mannitol or the serpasorbitol. It's a laxative effect to some degree. So your guts are kind of fucked up from both of those things. eating kimchi and various krauts with the occasional probiotic shot of 450 billion acidophilus monsters. But then like now I'm kind of got this brain thing going on about my guts that Amanda, the lady who trains me, she told me that there's a prebiotic. who trains me, she told me that there's a prebiotic. So now like after I got off the nicotine, I just dumped a bunch of those good probiotic bacterial monsters into my guts because that's supposed to be healthy. But apparently they need to be fed. And what they like to be fed

is cooked yams that aren't hot and jicama and some asparagus. So I've been focusing on feeding the new bugs in my intestines the stuff they like. And that's how I'm occupying my time post-nicotine, just concerned about the kind of living environment of my insides. That's the new project. My gut bugs feel good. And apparently if you got your gut bugs in check the rest of it falls into place that's the theory that's the theory i don't know warren hutcherson is here we talked for a bit i like i said i haven't seen him in a long time he used to have this great jokes about his dad and about being black and about things. I just I hadn't seen. I always had a lot of respect from his comic.

And I know he went on to write to be on the writing staff of the Bernie Mac show and other stuff. And I don't know. Things just came around and we were able to make it happen. You know, I talked to his I think his wife reached out to me and I emailed her and then she contacted him. Yeah. I mean, in the house. I mean, I think just down the hall, but nonetheless, let's talk to Warren Hutcherson now about. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind.

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A new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Stuff. So, Warren, like, I don't think I've seen you in a decade is that possible i think it's my maybe two decades when you think about it maybe we ran into each other here they're quick you know like once or twice right but uh you know back in the day i see all the time yeah it's weird i've known you a long time always liked you i always liked your stand

up and you know and uh i remember at some point you were one of the first guys that i realized like well i guess he's uh he's just writing now yeah like there was like you know like like you know you i used to love the bits and then all of a sudden it's like warren got a job writing and i'm like is that something we can do? Because I don't want to do that. Don't blame you. No. You know what? Because, and I think this is the thing that you realize either you are committing the slowest suicide in the world.

Yeah. Or you found the other way. You found like, you know what? I was working too hard at something else and now I got this. But I know now, and part of me even being here, part of me when I said- I think it's a practical decision.

I'm not condescending it at all. No, but that's the thing. That's the slow suicide of it. Right. Once you decide i think this is my philosophy right once you decide to do stand up and once you do it and then you become like good at it and you start thinking i think i can define myself as a stand-up right uh then you you sort of slide into the writing.

There's a new definite. You got to sit down and go, okay, there's a new definition now. Now, not that you can't be. For myself? For myself. Not that you can't be a stand-up and a writer. Right. But to be just a writer now, which is a lot of stand-ups.

You go, oh, what are you doing? And they're like, well, you know, I'm writing this, I'm writing that. And then then the stage thing is gone but as you get older and even as you know before you get older i mean there's fewer and fewer stand-ups that are going to be like ah you pussy well you know what i mean like unless you have that guy inside of you yeah well that guy is definitely inside of me and and and pussy is is a uh nothing is in is a charitable way. The things that I hear from that guy, I would love it. I'm like, can you just stay a pussy? You are really Jesus.

He's creative, huh? Well, he's creative. What is he? He's consistent because I'm letting down everybody. By not doing stand-up or a lot of things i'm tearing i'm destroying the race oh yeah destroying myself by being a writer i'm letting my family down you know it's just all kinds of stuff uh he's very active huh he's got a he's on stage a lot that guy that guy in your head well that's the thing it's like when i was

on stage you could calm down and just go, yeah, you know, these people, whatever. He had a voice. Yeah, but now he's like, oh, it's just me in here. Oh, okay, you're cool with it. And this is what you want then, right? You just want me to fuck with you because you ain't even going out and doing nothing. You know what I mean? That's a good question, though.

Do you want it? Like, you know, when you have those kind of feelings about yourself and those kind of patterns in yourself. I was just talking about this to my brother the other day, yesterday, where it's sort of like, you know, you circle around, you end up in the same place emotionally, psychologically, you know, where you're beating the shit out of yourself. And after a certain point, you're like, well, some part of you is comfortable here. Right. Exactly.

You know, it's not healthy. It's not good. It doesn't lead to a good place. But something in you is used to it. But you're good here. Yeah. So what are you bitching about? Just shut up and be here.

That's it, the acceptance thing. And that's the thing. It's like you know in your heart that acceptance is the right place to be. But then it's like, what am I accepting, though? Yeah. Am I accepting the best of myself, or have I given up? And that's what I mean. So you just take it to another level.

Like, okay, I get it, but, you know, it's still shitty. It's still shitty. And it's like, well, I feel like, look, I'll say this. Maybe this is a comparison that's fair.

Maybe it's not. I just did the thing. I'm 54. I think we're both 54. I'm 53. 54 September. And I'm 54 in October. But I'm the kind of person

who just says 54. I'm just jumping ahead. Yeah, I'm 60, man. No, you're not. I'm 78. I'm 54 in October. But I'm the kind of person who just says 54. I'm just jumping ahead. Yeah, I'm 60, man. No, you're not. I'm 53, but it's coming if I'm lucky. So, yeah. So, I'm 53, 54 in October. I just did my colonoscopy because, you know, you got to do that.

I did it last year or two years ago. I did it. And so, first of all, I got i got the number like here's the deal like my doctors in my regular doctor's office there's a guy who does it oh really you didn't have to go no i went to some some weird sort of like a place that doctors use well no that's i'm sorry yeah we went to a place okay but i mean like to find i didn't have to go find a doctor who does it right right right the doctor is right over there yeah just like i said i said to him i'm actually 51 i said i'm 51 yeah and i know that at 50 i'm supposed to do that everybody says do this thing and he goes oh yeah you're 51 sure uh you want me

to recommend somebody and i say yeah please and he goes there's this guy next door which immediately you go is that a real recommendation? Or are you just helping out your suite mate? Right. And then, like I said, I just did it. I just did it like three months ago. So that means- You put it off.

It took me, yeah, that long to get- Well, what was it? You didn't want to see the results? You didn't want to have something in your ass? I didn't want to see the results. Oh, okay. I didn't want to see. I didn't want to see.

It was probably both. Yeah. But it to see the results. Oh, okay. It was probably both. But it was more the results. And then when I got the results, when he says, you know, I got the paper and he says, yeah, you're good for another 10 years. Right, yeah. I said immediately, I was like, 10 years? Fuck, that guy's going to be retarded. He's an old guy. Oh, right.

I'm already coming up in my brain with why 10 years is a bad thing. Right. As opposed to I'm clean for 10 years. Yeah. So, and I'm saying like in what we were talking about, like I don't know if I should go, can you just be satisfied with where you are right now and not be so worried about 10 years from now? Or is it legitimate? And I feel like in this case,

it's a case-by-case basis. In this case... Well, yeah, I mean, that's a weird way to go with it. You know what I mean? In the sense that I know people like that. I'm very anxious in the moment. But I think when they told me I didn't have 8 to 10 years, I'm good. Well, I thought, well that's

see what I do is like, well that's off the list, let's check out the liver which of the other organs are going to go? Something else could happen. That's right, that one's good for now, that part of me is operating fine, but let's do the prostate again let's figure out what's up with that yeah that was I might get into that but something I get more

arrogant about it because I feel like yeah hey man my ass is clean yeah liver prostate they better be clean

yeah right because then I'm gonna be like that guy in my head will be like what's up with you prostate yeah the ass is clean but look at you

you got to grab onto some cancer you stupid ass you know thank you mr asshole right right oh i'm sorry how far can you can go yeah yeah all right but you grew up with it like because i remember the the early bits and the defining bits and the fact that you're still thinking about this stuff you know without a release valve yeah is uh is must be a little hard to handle i mean that must be a source of some of your self-criticism that you know at the beginning when you were doing jokes about your father and your grandmother and the unique sort of uh set of circumstances that you grew up in

ideologically right you know that you know at least you had that release valve so now you're kind of festering. Well, yeah. No. I mean, yes. You're right. And then it's deeper than that. What I realized is my release valve was some fake-oration. Fake-oration.

Some fakery. I was not being as honest as I could be well i mean you're doing comedy you know and you know you kind of you know you could progress to that yeah yeah and i know and i think that's why uh comedy became my thing um and that's why like i'm saying i now i'm torn between comedy and history maybe Maybe I'm not torn. Maybe I'll figure out how to weave it all together. Well, where did you grow up? I grew up in Baltimore.

Right. I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland. I'm sorry. Just for your listeners, I grew up in Baltimore City. So anybody who goes, oh, I grew up in Baltimore, and then they say, yeah, Pikesville or Reisterstown, these are all little areas around Baltimore. No. Yeah.

Baltimore City. And that means something. It totally means something. My point of reference is The Wire. The Wire is, for the most part, about the part of Baltimore City I grew up in. And how big was the family? My family was pretty big, I think.

I'll put it like this. My mom had three older brothers, and my dad had three surviving. He had two older brothers and an older sister yeah so both are both were the babies of the family right um but there were three siblings and everybody was around everybody nah my my mom's oldest brother uncle everett was a crazy vet. He was Army, Vietnam. He died in Vietnam. He did? Yeah.

It's weird to say died. He was killed in Vietnam. He expired over there. As I remember, you know, I mean, you're dealing with the kids' memories. he as i remember you know i mean you're dealing with the kids memories but uh i remember he was really a good uncle and he was really nice and crazy which is what you want sometimes from a good uncle you got to know him between tours or before he went yeah he'd come home between tours and then um i mean i'm sure i knew him before he went, but I was really little. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But me and my cousin, his son, my cousin Everett, we both lived with my grandmother, my mom's, my maternal grandmother for a while. Uh-huh.

And so, yeah. And we lived in the room. I mean, it was a little, it was public housing and there were only two bedrooms. and there were only two bedrooms. So at one point, I mean, we were all in the same room, and then my grandmother, because this is who she is, and she just moved downstairs. It was like a little huge staircase. She just basically made the couch.

That was her room. The living room was her room. And you and your cousin lived upstairs? Me and my cousin lived in one room, and then the other room was like when my Uncle Everett came home and sometimes Uncle Richard and Uncle William. And where was your mom? She was gone.

My mother and my grandmother had a really contentious relationship. My mother had a contentious relationship with a lot of people but my mother is a very loving person but and and there's so much about her that i'm i know there's so much about me that she's responsible she's still around yeah yeah absolutely that's good but she's she the thing i guess that that really kills me is like she and my when she talks about her mother my grandmother they're so alike they're so the same person that i i hope like someday before she expires she sees that oh she sees that she's you are the daughter of this woman who was fighting the things that you were fighting except she was fighting them 20 years you know she was fighting them before you yeah um it's weird that blindsiding people you know like

the the the parent you fight the most is probably the one you're the most like totally like that yeah and i've seen that oh i see it with my friends yeah all the time yeah and my yeah my mom The parent you fight the most is probably the one you're the most like. Totally like that. Yeah. And I see that. Oh, I see it with my friends. I see it all the time. Yeah. And my, yeah, my mom. Because my mom talks about, like, sometimes when she, there's like four or five, like, consistent stories that my mother tells.

Yeah. And one of them is about when she got put out. Like, her mom just said, get out. I don't want you here. Get out of the house. And she said, and I just, I was outside and i was a court and i was crying and i was begging i was just begging her please let me back in please you know and she said no it's like like and one thing was because i used to live with her like it was clear my grandmother

had a lot she was an iron rod like this is it yeah i have, I've made the statement and that's it. It's not changing. Right. And so my mother was like, you know, she talks about how, like how terrible she felt and how humbled she felt and abandoned. And she was, I mean, you know, your mother says, get out of my house. I don't care where you go. I don't care what happens to you.

What was the reason? I'm not, there's never been a very clear, you know what I'm saying? When you tell that story, it's never like, oh, and this is because I had done this. Which means to me, when, you know, people tell stories, you go, so you did something. Yeah, right, right. There's something that even now you go, eh. That's the missing part. Yeah.

It's like, somehow this was your fault. Right. But. You had it coming. Yeah, well, that part I wouldn't, I wouldn't go that far. Right. You had it coming. Yeah, well, that part I wouldn't go that far. Right. But you should have known.

Right. You knew you were dealing with. Right, yeah. And so this happened. Now, at the same time when I was, I think 17, certainly after school.

Yeah. And my mother had this whole idea of how I was going to live my life and be this different after high school person after high school and after like i i joined the marines and uh and then she was like that's not happening because i was 17 yeah when i graduated and so you know you got to get a parent you got you can you can you go and the recruiter's like, okay, sure. Just take this home and get your mom to sign it?

And she's like, that ain't happening. I've seen, you know, and part of it was like, I've seen what they did to my brother. Both my oldest uncle Everett died in Vietnam. Uncle Everett was Army. Uncle William was Marines. And the Marines were so impressed with him. And it was the 60siam was marines right the marines were so impressed with him and it was the

60s and there was a whole need for negro officers uh-huh that they sent him uh to annapolis they're like you know what we want you to become an officer the academy we're okay with you as an officer yeah so they send him to the academy and he goes back as a captain uh but like kind of around the time the war's over and so like i grew up around him and i had a real i admired him a lot you know there's a lot of stuff about him i didn't like that much but uh i had a real admiration for him as a man you know and this is a thing you grow up and that was why i was i think this started with you talking about my act and my dad a lot of my uh talk of my dad my dad is an amalgamation of a lot of stuff um is he a real person my dad is a real person. The things that my dad did that truly influenced me are things that do,

that I still kind of work with on a quieter basis. Because, you know, the dad I talked about on stage is very much in your face and loud. That's that voice in my head that I kind of give him credit for. But I think my dad wanted to be a lot of things.

Like, I think that my dad, if he were around, would be emotional. Sorry. It's weird. That was a weird thing. I was going to say, I think he would be proud of me. I never really thought of that. Because I think that what I did, what I was doing, when I was doing stand-up, I think he would have really been like somebody to brag about that. And he wasn't around already?

No, my dad died. My dad's story in my world is pure comedy. Some of it horribly funny. I think comedy. Can I tell you a few things about my dad? On the WTF podcast, the F being father. Yeah. I remember early on, my mom used to date this guy, Clinton.

Yeah. And this guy taught me how to play chess. Right. All right. And I didn't like this guy. But at the time, I didn't like him. Yeah. How old were you?

Around nine or ten. The deal was Clinton taught me to play chess. Yeah. And one day, my dad said he saw there was a chess board at that house yeah and he uh said oh i don't know you know how to play and i said yeah sure so he said let's play so we started to play a game of chess and he's awful yeah so you know i was like right. Yeah. That's the move you're going to make. But then it got to a point, I think like a few moves in that I thought, I don't want to beat him. I don't want to beat my dad. Right.

I don't want to do this. Yeah. So I just stopped. I was like, oh, okay. And I started making like stupid moves. Right. And then he won and he was like yeah he said well you know i could help you out like teach a few things and i said yeah

yeah okay so that was the dynamic that was kind of the thing like it was like i'm protecting him and he's but he's a good guy like so he's the thing like later. Once my dad came to me, this stuck with me for years. He came to me, said, you got $2. And I did. He said, I need $2. He said, I just need $2. I got this 50, but I don't need to be out here in these streets with this $50 bill. Right. But I could use $2, two $1 bills.

He said, here's what we're gonna do i'm gonna give you the 50 you hold on to that you give me the two dollars um i'm gonna be back in about an hour and a half if i don't come back if i'm not a man of my word yeah if i don't come back here an hour and a half you keep that $50 bill. Right. Because you got to be a man of your word. Yeah. Good.

Okay. That's a good deal, right? Yeah. You know? So I give him the $2. And I didn't even think about it, I guess, until like maybe an hour. Yeah. Like an hour into it, I'm looking out the window.

I'm rubbing my hands together. Okay. Yes. Yeah. I'm about to come up with $50. Yeah. And then he came back. He came back within the time limit.

Yeah. And he gave me my $2 back. And I gave him his $50 back. But then for years, I was like, Dad, my dad is so, there's a lot of of integrity that was so on my dad's an honest guy you know what i mean like he gave me 50 bucks that i could have yeah he didn't stick to his word right i don't know i think i was probably in my mid-40s before i thought really do you really think that your dad would have let you keep that $50 like if he'd have come back like two hours later say hey man listen yeah I tell you what I'll do I'll get you three dollars back yeah but you're gonna give me my money you know right but I don't really ever know he might be

because there's times with me like I take a very hard line about you know what no I said it was gonna be this way and so but i think some of that is because i'm still clinging to that like childhood thing like that that's what i always remembered about him and so you know we catch up and we made some things he started i said i gotta start exercising i'm strong you should be real scrawny kid i said i'm you know i need to bulk up a little bit you know and so uh he would send me uh exercises he's found like you know and just stuff hey man you know good to talk to you good to see you right like six months later i get this call he's in the va sick he's got cancer dying yeah he's almost dead yeah you know and that never came up never came he knew he must have known it's like six months come on uh and you know like for me thinking thinking back at it

it was like because the call was so out of the blue so now it's like oh okay so like he gets this diagnosis and it's like let me try to tie up some loose ends yeah he's got this kid let me go talk to him and so um you know i was just like what okay and my uncle his brother calls me and says yeah your daddy you gotta you're gonna go see him you know i go yeah yeah so i go to the va um and i was a little pissed you know because i'm like what why why didn't you you could have talked about this but i you know i'm in my head i'm back and forth i guess he didn't know why why talk about this thing that's bothering him and he wants to know what what's up with me and i guess he wants to know that i'm going to continue my

journey and be okay you know and i go they let me in and it's intensive care so it's only a few people allowed in at the time this nurse lets me in and i go in and like i said i got all that in my head i'm looking at this guy is being ravaged so i know he knew he had this yeah now it's like look at it so right thin and weird and i was like i was like i don't know what to say to you man i'm like and he's not conscious really you know i said i just i said i'm kind of mad but i don't want to be mad because i you know i i i want you to know that i'm you know and then the nurse taps me on my shoulder and says piss man said what

she goes hutcherson and And I go, yeah. She goes, over there. Come on. The wrong guy. I was talking to the wrong, so then I go over here, but it's the same thing. When I go over to the bed that she pointed me to,

I'm still like, he's not, he's out of it. He's unconscious and, and unrecognizable. It's still like, right. Yeah.

Yeah. I was still like, okay. Yeah. I can't even work myself up to what happened over there yeah you had a dry run

yeah rehearsal and then but that rehearsal was it that's all that was in me I was like you know

I said man I don't know what to say to you I don't know if you can even hear me and I'm looking at the you know there's a heart

E.K.G. thing yeah like is there anything that at the you know there's a heart money thing yeah like is there anything that's going to show that there's a a hint of recognition to the fact that i'm even here and i'm like no i don't think so you know yeah and i kind of patted his hand and i said well i came by you know um i'm gonna come by I left, you know, and I think like two days later, that same uncle called me up and we have issues. We had issues. We're very cool. Yeah.

But because this is what he does. He calls me up. You know, your daddy dead now, right? No, I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They just passed away.

And I guess the hospital had his number. Right, right, yeah. And so it had just happened. And he was like, yeah, well, that's over. So the deal is, where his dad on stage came from. So then I get this call, basically. They're like, well, you're 18 now. This is March, actually.

Just turned 18 in October. Now it's March. And you're the executor of your dad's estate. You have to bury him. You have to take care of all of these things. Yeah. You know, I call my friends who all had dads except for one who I think didn't. Well, I mean, everybody obviously has a dad right you

know that didn't know his dad uh and they were you know consoling but they didn't really get it because then it was a whole thing of like dude you never talked about your dad before i go yeah yeah like are you worried are you upset i was like yeah yeah i guess i don't know you know when the one group i had like three friends who kind of took me out drinking so we got like and we had the worst we had like thunderbird right and jack daniels and we kind of hung out and uh it's actually a graveyard which is ridiculous and i drank uh i basically drank all night but felt nothing yeah you know like never i didn't remember feeling drunk and i totally remember like that night and then the next day because the next day i went to get my uncles and i was driving around yeah and they were like you were drinking last night and

i said yeah i was like why do you think that you're pretty steady yeah i mean i guess on some emotional i was trying to anesthetize that feeling that I did. Like, I don't even know what this feeling is, but it's wrong. Yeah, it wasn't grief. It was just sort of like it didn't have an effect that you thought it should. Yeah. You know, years ago, I went to see a guy who talked about Vietnam. He said that he worked in the uh he sorted body parts right so this is where i worked in like

whatever the field hospital where i had to identify this body part goes with this and he said uh he said i drank two pints of jack daniels every day every day he said i just drank that to get through it he said and i can't there's nobody that can tell you that they ever saw me drunk. It was like just that is what I needed to deal with what I was doing. Right. And I think that that drinking on that night was what I needed. Sure. Just to deal with this thing.

Like all these, we're never going to have a discussion. Right. We're never, there's a million things that are never going to happen. Right. For me and my dad yeah and um and i guess i had always sort of stuffed that away because he existed and i knew where he was right and it was like at some point we'll have a relationship but now that's not the case right so yeah that was that was um that's the extent so when did you start doing comedy? I started doing comedy.

I was 22. I started writing comedy. What happened was I was in, this is another, I don't know, maybe it was my dad, maybe somebody. Basically, we didn't believe in loans. I don't believe in loans. So to go to college, you got to work or live on some saved money. And so, and I didn't even want to go I was like I don't see the point is I struggled for the last year high school not academically but just like what is this about but anyway

at the Community College of Baltimore I met a guy who wanted to do comedy he wanted to be partners yeah i had no interest anymore in hard news solid things i was all about features i was a feature writer for the college newspaper so you'd be a reporter but no i was actually in school for nursing i was going to be a nurse and then what did your mother put you out already yeah she had i was gone i was out i was out was that a hostile thing or it was totally hostile it was absolutely hostile she was mad i mean what was she mad about it was she was mad that i wasn't living which i think was exact same thing with her mother like i had a notion of what you would be like as an adult

or as a young adult and you're not living up to it it was just like i i didn't like i said i wasn't really interested in the college thing i had a job like i went i got a job immediately out of high school and uh but i was unfocused right and she was like focus yeah you gotta focus and the way out of this is college yeah and i was like i'm not so sure college is for me and the way out of this this isn't so bad your parents hate you know this is okay we're all right we're not okay uh for a living yeah i worked in a pharmacy i started as just a clerk but then the guy uh yeah trained me so right the pharmacy okay but that that wasn't your future no but it could have been well that was a whole deal like kind of

going into nursing i was like well i could go into pharmacy or i could be a pharmacy tech pharmacy techs are actually do the work yeah the pharmacist takes the credit um but it wasn't necessarily something you want to do with your future. You were just doing a job. Right. But it's something I could have done for money and been fine. Right. She wasn't having it.

She was like, dude, you got to follow your thing. You got to be you. Parents do that thing of like, find yourself. And you go, well, I'm right here. I found myself. That's not you, though. So anyway, I go and i say well uh okay um i mean this guy this guy's like you know basically i used to joke around the office

but eventually you went to community college and you're writing i go to community college and yeah i'm writing on the school paper because that was more fun and i enjoy writing and your mom was happy no she's like this you're doing some more stuff and and I enjoy writing. And your mom was happy? No. She's like, this, you're doing some more stuff. And we weren't talking. This was after I got put out, so we're not really communicating. Right. You know, what I do, I do. Right.

She doesn't care. Right. I mean, she probably cares, but I wasn't trying to open up to her. You came back around, though. Yeah, totally. But, yeah, no. So I go, and I joke around in the office. Right.

I joke around a lot in the office of the newspaper. And this guy goes, you know, I'm thinking of going to this comedy club downtown, but we might, it might be better off if like we're partners. You want to partner up? And I go, yeah, sure. Why not? You know, whatever. What the hell? Try it. And so then he starts setting rehearsal times, and he's got a schedule. Like, let's get together and write. I'm like, dude, are you crazy? This is, suddenly this is school again. Yeah. Do you understand? Were you performing as a team? No.

This was the thing. I'm like, you get why I'm in community college, right? Right. Because this is a last-ditch effort. Yeah. I didn't, this wasn't the plan. Yeah. So he was like, well, I really want to do this.

I go, here's what we'll do then. Why don't you run, tell me some of the stuff that you want to do. And he goes through some jokes. Horrible. Yeah. Horrible. Were you a comedy fan? I was a big fan of comedy.

And I say to this guy, I'll write these. I'll fix these jokes for you. Yeah. You just go up. I'll write. I'll do. Yeah.

You and I are going to work on your writing. Right. And, but as a team, I don't know. So we go down and it's a big splash.

It's like open mic night. He gets up. People are like, wow, that guy is funny. With your jokes. Sure. Yeah. With a derivative of his, I'll say, a couple of his premises. Yeah.

But then, yeah, my jokes. And what we didn't know was the whole notion of like working on a set work on a routine right so we basically like well we did those jokes and the next week we went back with all new jokes right and then again and again and again must impress the open mic and there you go not so much the open mic is but certainly the club owners right you know so they were like geez this guy about him yeah yeah so when did you start doing it on your own uh i guess about maybe two years after and it was really a matter the deal was they didn't know who i was sure they didn't know i was writing this stuff and um and then one day and we started out a writer i started out a

writer exactly but yeah yeah as far as i started out uh you knew enough to know that i started out a writer. Yeah. Exactly. But, yeah. Yeah. As far as, I started out. You knew enough to know that. I started out a, I was saving this guy. He's like, you're embarrassing. But it's interesting though, but you were approaching jokes. You know, you had a sense of it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And a sense of how to act on stage. Right. But then the thing is how, I started out helping other people. Right. Because after a while, you know like after after the show and you sit around and you're talking and people come over and i would start helping other people yeah right you should do this you know that thing you do with the damn mind you could and so they're like this guy's funny right uh and then it becomes this thing like we kind of went

out we would always like hang out after the show right it's always like this is the we're the common we're the comedians sure more and they started to get it they started to go one-on-one when you're with the two of them this is the funny guy right this guy is not so fast or funny right you know and they were like okay so you're writing his stuff right okay we get it yeah and so then there was this why don't you go up what's the deal like we're hanging out with you you're funny and blah blah and i was like i don't know um and then finally i make this pack that go like there was this one guy used to come yeah the guy who actually the first the guy who got me uh he's a drug dealer um and he used to come and it's just like a weird thing like i didn't know

he was a drug dealer yeah but the deal was he would come and then he would disappear right come over mic night disappear weeks and then then come back and be in the same place yeah like you think if you went away you thought about something right came back right but so what's he doing comedy yeah he'd come he'd get on stage and just be like what is this guy right and then uh i said if that guy ever comes back the day that guy comes back i'll get on stage because i i can't stand to see the audience tortured by that right and uh he comes back yeah and i went up as the the arrogance that i went over to so much because of everything i just told you because in my head i'm like i'm writing jokes yeah for that guy right jokes for this guy

it's like i'm constantly coming up with tags and punchlines i gotta write i'm gonna write five minutes you know what i'm gonna get up there and do five minutes right you clowns yeah i'll show you right it's all another thing you know yeah i got on the stage like oh it's just a different world yeah looking out at the people looking back at you with the expectation in your eyes and i just i mumbled through some stuff i got nothing yeah no no love and then I text some people I mean I call it a text I try to talk to some people in the crowd my heart is

pounding and it was awful yeah it was awful and what happens when you get off and so I get off and I was like what that is awful that is the worst thing ever I got to go on next week this is my thing I was like, what? That is awful. Yeah. That is the worst thing ever.

I got to go on next week. Well, this is my thing. Yeah. And that voice in my head thing is then I get forensic with it. I got to figure out all the variables. That doesn't make sense to me. I shouldn't have. Like all that other stuff I thought before about how I write for everybody else. Yeah.

And I do this and that. So that shouldn't have happened. So what happened? Like, okay, well, and I do this and that. So that shouldn't have happened. Right. So what happened? Like, okay, well, I wasn't prepared, obviously, so I got to prepare. But then all of those things, for me to suss out all the variables, I got to keep going back up. Right.

You got to master this thing. You got to fix it. I have to, exactly. Got to save face. Right. And then I had a girlfriend at the time who was like 100 behind who was actually in the army she was like i had that was my military connection yeah it was like you're gonna just not do it again and go i don't i think maybe maybe that's best for me to not do it again

she's like i don't know you i don't know that guy yeah and i said yeah you're right i'm gonna do it again i gotta do it i gotta kill it so um so yeah and then i had a whole conversation with andre where i go look here's what we gotta do because i'm gonna keep writing for you yeah but obviously you know we gotta differentiate so let's make a decision like you like he's very political yeah he's like you like the political stuff yeah i'm gonna write that i'm gonna write these jokes for you yeah and then i'm gonna write the the more lighthearted family junk. Yeah. For me.

You know, but it's all in the name of laughs. Yeah. And he said, yeah, cool, for like a couple weeks. And then he got to the point where he said, you know what? I think I got it. I can write my own jokes. Yeah. And then that freed me you know and the only thing that

i did make sure i was like to never step on his toes like like if he got up with some premise i go okay i'll leave that alone but um but uh so now you're doing it yeah i'm doing it and now without that anchor yeah without being constrained, we're working for everybody else. Suddenly, in a few months, I'm emceeing. Then I do a commercial. There's this local commercial. These people come by and they see us. They hired me and a couple other guys from the club.

We do these commercials. Now, I'm known. I go around. I walk around baltimore and people like i had made up it's for a car dealership yeah and i had made up the reverend mitsubishi yeah so people were like oh he's the reverend guy mitsubishi that's that guy you know and it's i mean it's great in the city it's just like being a local sportscaster sure you're great in your city yeah you step uh 20 miles out nobody knows who you are

nobody cares yeah um so yeah i started doing that and then i started getting bookings didn't even have a phone i had a like people to book me people called dan rose yeah because they were like dan had a phone i the way i was working the way i had budgeted my money, I was like, I don't need to pay a phone. Yeah. Who am I? I know everybody I know. I just go see them. Yeah.

So you did shit to kind of hold yourself back on some level. Still. Yeah. You know, from the beginning. You're going to make it harder for yourself. I'm so afraid. I'm making it harder for myself. Yeah.

And I'm still, and that's the thing where I'm at now. Like, I'm still doing that. Or I started doing it again. Right. And now I got to stop. Right. Because now I make it all about my kid. And I'm like, you know what?

That kid doesn't deserve to have me go, yeah, you know what? I turned my back on comedy because you need me too much. Right. You know what I mean? I got to be home and take care of you. Yeah. whereas there'd be people who go what a hero i'm like no not really what's his issue coward they don't my he's undiagnosed is the most true thing yeah but it's like clearly like cerebral palsy and um

you know he's non-verbal yeah he's not not mobile. You know, his limbs don't obey his commands. Uh-huh. And, I mean, there's a host of things to deal with. Right. And he's also, in my estimation, very smart, very clever. And the thing I realize about kids, if there's anything about them, they absolutely kind of come. If you're paying attention to them, they're here to help you, I think. I really feel that way.

I feel like, and with both of them. I said this to a friend of mine. I said, you know what I realized? There's nothing I say to that way. I feel like, and with both of them, I said this to a friend of mine. I said, you know what I realized? There's nothing I say to my kids. There's not one piece of, and I'm talking about a 10-year-old and a 7-year-old. There's not one piece of advice that I say to them that is not absolutely intended for me. Absolutely. You know, some circumstances change, but know you go look who cares what the other

kids in your class think about you what's important is how you feel and what you do and then you know like you can have that argument with them and then look at yourself in the mirror and go well really yeah you want to you want to tell yourself that right now? You're still telling yourself that. Exactly. You know what I mean? And so, but they make it more concise. They make it more clear. And this is the deal with my son. Yeah. The fear and all the stuff that we talked about. There's stuff that my son can do.

Yeah. That he doesn't do because he's a 10 year old boy in a wheelchair yeah that people have affection for right and so as i'm constantly saying to him dude you have to stop relying on that you know yeah because there's going to be a point where and he goes to the school where they they have a they have 30 of the kids of special needs everything all along the spectrum yeah special needs and not to say spectrum because that right mean that leans to all different kinds of special needs but everything and this is what puts me in a place where i'm like i'm like i guess any other parent you know you want your kid you

want to say to your kid you understand how lucky you are you understand what a great opportunity this is Yeah, and in a way my kids. Yeah, I totally get it. Which is why I don't talk which is why I'm like, yeah He does this he'll start crying and kicking and And I'll go there's a deal and I've been doing this for four years now like What do you need? You know, in Chinese, yes is hi. You can say hi, you know.

So instead of you trying to make your mouth, wrap your mouth around the word yes, here's the deal. When you want something, if I ask you something and the answer is affirmative, if the answer is yes, say hi. When you want something, if I ask you something and the answer is affirmative, if the answer is yes, say hi. Yeah. You know?

Do you get it? And I'm going to write down all these things. Like, I'll educate your teachers. We're going to make, it's going to be your language. Right. You know? It's going to be Zave's language.

Based on what he can. Based on what you can do. Right. Based on me seeing what you can do. Did he get it? I think he absolutely gets it. Does he do it? No. Dude, here's what I'm going can do. Did he get it? I think he absolutely gets it. Does he do it? No.

Dude, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to scream and cry, and you are going to figure it out like everybody else. I mean, that's what infants do. Like, this is what I say to them. I go, that's what infants do. They cry. The parents pick them up, and they say, what's wrong? Are you hungry?

You got to go to the bathroom. You need to be burned. And they figure it out eventually. And then the kid gets satisfied. And then they get whatever they get out of that. It's like, yeah, okay, you care about me. You hung out. You figured it out.

Yeah, and I didn't have to jump through any hoops. Exactly. Or try to do something. And so we have that conversation constantly but at the school they do have to jump through that hoop if he's in class and he starts screaming yeah well the teacher's got to figure it out and then sometimes she just says to there's an aid and he goes take him to the bathroom and i talk to the aides and I'll go, what happened? And they'll go, well, like he started screaming. And I said, it sounds like if they describe the day, they describe what was going on.

Yeah. Especially if they were doing math. Yeah. And I'll say, so what happened? So you took him out and I'll say, yeah, well, so we left to go to the bathroom and then he stopped. And I go, let me ask you this. Did he stop the minute you walked out of the class or did he stop when you go to the bathroom, and then he stopped, and I go, let me ask you this. Did he stop the minute you walked out of the class, or did he stop when you got to the bathroom?

And I go, oh, yeah, you know, he actually stopped, like, as soon as we walked out of the class. And I'll say, and he didn't go to the bathroom, right? And I go, yeah, no, he just kind of sat. He sat, and then I got him up, and then we went back to the class, and he started screaming again. And I go, dude. He doesn't want to do math doesn't want yeah exactly you don't want to do math and then you you do this thing this you go to this infantile behavior because you know there's going to be more you're going to get more credit for that there's going to be more sympathy and then I want to go

and I don't want to go I say to I go, look, that sympathy goes away. Trust me, when you're the 15-year-old screaming like a baby in the corner, people are going, can somebody please shut that kid up? You're telling him this. I'm telling him this all the time. I'm telling him all the time. So this is the struggle. Come on, man.

This is the beautiful struggle. And at the same time, like I'm saying to you, I have these long conversations with him. And then I go and look in the mirror and go, really, dude? Really? Yeah. You just had that? You're sitting here crying and screaming. Oh, I'm writing for everybody else.

I need to get myself together and back on stage. Everything you say to him. So this is something that's eaten at you every day. Well, I mean, yeah. I can't say eaten at me, but it's in my head. It's present. Right. So let's go back.

Okay, so you do comedy. Eventually you moved to New York where I met you. Yeah. And you're doing those shows that I did, the Caroline's Comedy Hour, the Evening at the Improv. We're all getting those first breaks. Yeah, yeah. So your first job was you go to SNL, the writing job?

First writing job was SNL. But how long were you in comedy then? Like six, seven years? Maybe six. Well, I'll tell you this. Yeah, because I remember this. There was a show at SNL. I remember the Jordan.

Is it Michael Jordan in Public Enemy? Yeah. That was my year my, that was my 10 year reunion, 10 year high school reunion. And I thought it out and I was like, okay, so I started, I graduated at 17.

I started comedy at 22. Yeah. So I'm 27 now. So five years. Five years from when I started. You're working at SNL. I'm working at SNLl so now at that point though were you like you know this this comedy life looks you know why not take that gig the deal with the

snl thing was i miscalculated yeah i basically you know i worked i'm from baltimore i'm used to going up and down 95 right to do my gigs every once in a while i go west never came as far as out here doing the jersey shit boston shit this jersey i never i did philly shit i did boss i did the philly shit but i didn't do boston shit until i moved to new york right um i was doing a little chillicothe ohio yeah you know preston preston's bird kentucky i had gotten to the point where i was headlined yeah and then i got to the point where i was headlined yeah and then i got to the point where i realized the only thing i like about headlining was every once in a while that's a nice small crowd to talk to um can i can i say like one quick story yeah

like the one time i realized this is what i love to do but this is what i love to do with these people me me and patton yeah in alaska yeah right uh i don't know if it's juno some one of those towns and one of the cities and uh we do it we do our show i think we're there for a week and we we you know it's fine a week was fine last show yeah six people yeah best show of the week two couples yeah well for me yeah patten was like yeah i don't know what the hell this is and six black people right six black people of alaska you know and they come to this show and like yeah patten goes up and he does his thing he does his patent thing and he's fine and they like they're very respectful of him you know

it's like patents like if i was a, juice would come out of my fingers. Right. They just go. Early Patton. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so he comes, he sits down, he goes, man, I don't know what to tell you.

Good luck. And I get up and I start talking to them. Yeah. And I asked the guy, it was two couples and then two, you know, and I said, you guys, like when you came in and you noticed that the crowd wasn't filling up around you, did you think for a second, maybe we shouldn't stay? Oh, yeah. I always wondered that. And they said, this guy said, well, this was the last night. He said, well, we made this plan to come here and we came to see you

i was like but now now the pressure's on and now and like everything i'm just talking to you about like the old like i'm responsible for these people this is a community thing yeah yeah these people live all the way in alaska i have no idea what their life is like. Yeah, yeah. But there's six black people who came to see me. And then these people start coming in and being loud. And the deal was there was some wedding at another hotel across the street. Yeah. And it was so crowded over there that they decided to come over here. Right. And this doesn't look like a comedy show.

This looks like one guy on stage talking to his friends. Yeah. So then I got to deal with them. Right. looks like one guy on stage talking to his friends. Yeah. So then I got to deal with them. Right. But then I start talking about them to these people. I'm like, let's see now if that was us. Yeah. They were all like, oh, these loud black people.

And they started laughing. And I think I did like half act, half conversation. Yeah. With those people. And I was like, this is good. This is where it's at. Yeah, yeah. This is what I want to do.

Yeah. And this was years after I couldn't figure out what the hell with SNL. So SNL was, money-wise, I was like, where's my money going? New York is expensive as hell. And it just got to that point, I was like, where the hell is my money?

I'm very good with my money. And it's leaving. It's going too fast. And I think at the point I was doing SNL, I was doing, I had Catch. I was emceeing at Catch on Sunday night and Tuesday night. Catch Rising Star. Yes. It's like early 90s, yeah.

Early 90s. The Louis Faranda years. Oh, God. Yeah. And I was still working around, you know. And I didn't understand what the hell was up with the money, and I realized, yeah, I'm driving twice. Like, if I got the gig that I used to have every year in North Carolina,

I used to drive from Baltimore to North Carolina. Right, so now you're flying. No, I'm still driving, but I'm driving down. First, I'm doing the New Jersey Turnpike, and then I'm going over the bridge i'm paying these tolls i'm spending more money eating food new york just coming through the damn tunnel is five dollars coming and everything is two dollars more than it is living in baltimore's everything is crazy so you and you're doing snl well and that's why i did

snl i did snl because i was like this is a steady paycheck. Who was the cast then? The cast cast was Dana. Dana was kind of, it's not right to say in decline. Yeah. But Mike was definitely in ascendancy. So it was Dana and Mike and Phil Hartman, who was a stellar individual. Who was Update? Update was Nealon. Yeah. Kevinvin kneeling what's his name it just dennis miller just left um and uh and then the boys rock and

and sandler and rob schneider and spade yeah um good cast yeah and farley who you know was doing this thing already um but yeah yeah definitely a good group of people and then the year after me they hired ellen clay corn and timmy and this was a thing like tim between tim and chris and ellen yeah uh probably the most until now yeah yeah they had kind of gone down the the road of blackness right um but it was making me crazy sometimes you know because it was kind of to me i was like this this what's happening here is, and Living Color is winning Emmys. So, Lorne hires Chris. Right. Who kind of came with an audience, because people already knew Chris.

Right. He didn't absolutely need SNL. So, I got there, and that particular show I'm talking about, with Chris and Ellen and Timmy, like the next week, we wrote this sketch, because it was, it was Michael Jordan. It was Public Enemy, musical guest.

Spike Lee came on and did a guest thing on, Chris used to do the sketch, Nat X. And then Jesse Jackson came on because that week, two people died. Miles Davis died that week

and Dr. Seuss died. And Al Franken had, God bless him forever. Al Franken said, well, you know what we should do? We should get Jesse Jackson to come on and read an obituary. We'll write something for Dr. Seuss because of the rhyming.

Yeah. And I was like, Jesse Jackson ain't going to do that, man. Are you kidding? He was on a plane. You send a plane for me. I guess his son played football in some college. He said, send a plane. I'm going to be here so we did that that show and that show was so many

different things for me I the best thing I remember was just sitting on a fire escape just me and Chuck D just just talk yeah just just shooting it right and talking about Miles Davis and it goes Lauren to that come to me. He had assigned me this. He was like, Miles Davis just died. Can you write a little something? A little something? What are they going to say? Yeah.

Honestly. How long? How long of something before they go, bring the noise? What are you talking about? So Chuck just, I was like, why don't we just do a minute of silence or something like that for 20 seconds? So he did that. But then the next week, we wrote the sketch where the opening monologue was Chris and Ellen and Tim.

And I'm just going, okay, last week was probably the blackest Saturday Night Live, you know, with the three of of us plus public enemy plus michael jordan plus jesse jackson plus spike lee um and then uh and we wrote that and then lauren decided like kind of the last minute no i don't want to do that it's like you know his thing was he don't want to serialize the show now that's valid yeah okay i get that you don't want it to be like right if you watch that show and you go, oh, I wonder what last week was. Right. But then a part of me goes, that's actually selling. Now people have to go figure out what last week was. But that place, and I call it that place, was not, to me, is like this place is not really conducive to just being creative and funny it's very conducive to being uh um competitive yeah and i didn't come here for that right uh and then you

know when i think back on it it was kind of being competitive like so in the end i go to lauren i think at the like the end of my second year i go i'm writing this stuff and i i love chris i love chris i love timmy but honestly i don't think either one of them knows where i'm coming from sometimes but the things are right and uh and he i don't know if he acknowledged that or not he just listened um i had gotten fed up with uh i wrote this thing for tim because i felt like he was underserved yeah underutilized tim meadows tim meadows yeah i said um it was ali's i don't know it's 50th 60th birthday and i wrote this thing where it started out i wrote a whole like slow roll until they got to a peak and basically basically at the peak, it was like him calling himself the greatest feature player of all time.

He's like, I'm the greatest of all time. I don't care about no Chris Rock. I don't care about this. Just in everybody's face. I'm Tim Meadows. I came here. And at the read through, people loved it. And then I felt like the closer we got to air, dude, started.

It just got less and less appealing. And not like the words of it, but the commitment. Tim's commitment seemed to be like, like even to the point Jim Downey said, I don't know what's going to happen with that piece. Because Timmy, he's like, I don't, Timmy's run through, his read through performance of that piece was amazing. Everybody was like, look at Tim. And then it was like, hmm.

And it didn't go? And it didn't go. And I was like, okay. I could have done it. So I go to Lorne and I go, I'm not, I know you got your thing. I don't want to be, clearly I'm not saying make me a member of the cast. Right. You got to earn that. And I'm not even saying make me a feature player.

Right. From time to time I got to write something that I know I can do. Right. And I agree. But Jim has a real issue if I take the writers, when I make writers feature players or performers on the show, he says to me. He says, yeah. So I don't

you know I don't want to upset Jim I love him and this is whole thing about yeah he blames it all on right out there right okay cool and I go to leave now I had to like they're like there are clicks there and I can't pretend I didn't have my little crew yeah it they were like the younger, Dave Mandel and Steve Corrin were my boys. Yeah. And they asked, like, what happened? They knew what I was going to do. Yeah.

And they asked what happened. And I go, man, he blamed it all on Jim. And it's like, because then Lauren said, go talk to Jim. Yeah. If you talk to Jim and Jim says it's okay, then you got it. So I leave and I say to them all right i'm out i'm i'm out of here and what did he say i said he said talk to jim but come on man yeah uh then they convinced me yeah i let them convince me that if you never talk to jim you'll never know you gotta talk to Jim yeah and uh so I

talked so I wait to talk to Jim like here's the thing this is the crazy I've heard Scott a million times better there's a dysfunction there was a huge dysfunction there about uh time yeah people's work ethic like I used to get to work at when I worked at SNL yeah I used to get there at 10 o'clock because somebody told me those were the hours right 10 o'clock in the morning 10 a.m yeah so i left home every day 10 a.m get to snl we didn't start work till like six seven o'clock seven p.m six seven so what were you doing all day i was hanging out i was talking to and that was the other thing like it wasn't like i would ever say i'll just leave and yeah wait until somebody calls me. Because that's what would happen.

Right. People would just not be there. And they'll say, hey, call me when this is real, basically. And so I hung out with the office staff. Those guys love me. I had a good time with them. Yeah. And I think they didn't really get talked.

It was a whole hierarchy. Yeah. And then it got crazy because then all of a sudden we start working at seven. And you're tired. Well, like, you know,

we're going to go from like seven to two to work on these sketches. So yeah, around 11, 30, 12, I'm getting drowsy. Yeah. You know,

I would doze off and then there'll be someone right. It was Jesus. Warren, what are you, you know, like what's your issue? Like, and I was like, Jesus, Warren, what's your issue? And that was like, it's Saturday Night Live, so the initial assumption is he's high, but it was like, people knew I was pretty straight,

so it's like, he's not high. It's just, what are you doing? You can't stay up? And oddly enough, one of the reasons I love Jim Downey, he knew, Jim was like, get a Skype break. He's been here since 10 o'clock. Yes. Like, how do you know since the whole reason we're

starting at 7 is because you didn't get here until 7 o'clock. Did you talk to him about that thing? So I go talk to him. Yes. But the reason I brought that story up is because my meeting with Lorne was supposed to be at 9 p.m. I talked to Lorne maybe at 2 in the morning.

So I walk out of Lauren's office, and then I say to Jim's assistant, I got to talk to Jim. Yeah. And I'll have this conversation, I guess, tomorrow. And she goes, he's still here. If you want to wait a half hour, you can talk to him now. Okay. Well, half an hour becomes 4 in the morning.

Yeah, yeah. So I talked to Jim before. And this is the thing now. I tired this is like this is some some cult stuff and i say jim yeah well here's a conversation tell him a conversation i had with lauren and lauren and jim just starts laughing he's like what are you talking yeah lauren said what he goes do you know how many people lauren puts puts on. He said, okay. All right. Well, then here's the deal.

Yeah. You go back to Lorne. I'll write it down. You want me to write it down for you? Go back to Lorne and you tell him that Jim's fine with it. And you can do whatever you please. I'd love it if you're on camera or not. That's fine with me.

Yeah. And then I have Jim's office and I left Jim's office and I looked my boys, and I go, okay, now I'm out of here. Like, I've talked to Jim. Yeah, and I was like, I got to go. And then the weird thing is, and I talked to Townsend had come by. Robert? Robert Townsend had come by, and he wanted to start this show out here. and he wanted to start this show out here.

He was doing, and he kept calling it the other side of In Living Color because at this point he and Kenan had had their big falling out. So, you know, he asked me about SNL and what it was like and how things worked. And I told him about that sort of back and forth. And he goes, dude, I'm going to use you as talent and a writer. Basically, I'm going to use you as talent and a writer.

Basically, I'm giving you what you want on my show. So I said, good. Love it. And that's where you went? So I came, yeah, I moved out here. Now, that was a time when Abby was like, what? No. It was like, wait, you're going to leave SNL,

no like it was like wait you're gonna leave snl which is an established jog jogger not yeah to go to fox because that was a deal it was it was a fox show when this was a point where fox didn't even have a full day's worth of programming right to work with robert townsend, who, you know, he had partners in crime stuff, but, you know, he was not a proven entity. And they were, everybody was against it. And I was like, yeah, but I think, you know, just creatively, this is going to work for me. Got you out here. Well, but that's the thing. I was like, I'm still in that place where I can write, but I'm a performer. That was always my thing.

So Robert was feeling that he was he was hitting that note for me uh but then what he would do is like he hired all these writers like we had a nice little writer's room and we'd turn in these sketches and then we'd watch uh the show was filmed and we watched the show and and then, I don't recognize any of this. Did you write that? Right. So sometimes you go, wait, I think this is my sketch because I wrote a sketch about a cafeteria. And here's a sketch that's in a restaurant.

And I think that this is what became of my sketch. So Townsend did this thing where he would just rewrite everything. based on what he thought right best in the sketch and it was not working then the weird thing was i get this call from fox executives they say come in i go over and they go what do you think is working about the show and i said it's a great the writer's amazing it's a good group uh i think you know whatever i could give them a whole long line list of things that are working they say what do you think is not working i think you guys got to talk to robert and sometimes he's maybe a little in his own head he's a little too much they say uh oh i'm sorry the question was posed is what do you think would make the show work better?

And I give them this whole thing, like, you know, you got to do this. Number one thing, talk to Robert. Yeah. And they look at me and go, what else do you think would make the show work better? I go, oh, so you're not going to talk to Robert. Okay, I don't know. And they say, look, here's the thing, that show's not going to, we're getting rid of that show. Look, here's the thing.

That show's not good. We're getting rid of that show. But, and then I think back in these days for Fox, it was like they're a new franchise. Yeah. So just cachet wise, I'm a guy who wrote a couple years on SNL and I work for Fox now. Yeah. They don't want me leaving. Right.

The Fox farm team. Right. And so they're like, well, you know, we know that you have friends on and live in color yeah uh you know i think you know some people over martin we have this show called living single so they throw those out at me uh i couldn't resist i'm like did you just just tell me the three black shows you have on your network yeah not take into account i just came here from SNL. Right. Oh, no, of course.

You know, it became this whole thing. Like, oh, no, married with children would love you. We can set up a meeting. Sure. And I was like, no, it's all right. I get it. Just, you got to watch that. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And this is who I am. I mean, I shouldn't be talking like that. Right, yeah. But that's who I was. So, you know, I had my issues with those. I'm not trying to be part of a clique, so I'm like, well, I don't know anybody that live in single.

And of all of those shows, that one, you know, even Married with Children, like, there's a barrage of jokes. And the only new thing for me to learn is story the story structure and this living single thing seems to be more along those lines and i go over there and this woman yvette lee at the time yvette denise lee and she's yvette bowser but we had our meeting and i also like the fact like you know at this point you, New York, the comic, not so much the club owners and all that stuff. I'm getting really fed up with the lies and all this nonsense in the business. And I talked to her, and she says, well, we started, we're on show number six, and I used to have this guy here.

There's only one black male writer on the show. There's only one black male writer on the show. And so I said, honestly, are you hiring me? You're looking at me because I'm a funny guy. I'm a funny, talented guy who you think could fit in here. Or you're just talking to me because I'm another black guy and you need another black guy. And she goes, this town is full of funny talented writers i'm talking to you because you're another black guy wow uh she said but a funny talented black right and i said i got

nothing but respect for that yeah i appreciate that you know you could have oh my god you know i've i've been i've asked that question before and i've gotten oh my god no we totally respect them like you know just like my dad with the lies like yeah so um so there and that was the thing like i i learned she's this and she's big on story structure it's just like i might not always like the stories of where they went but as far as like setting them up taking things to a different place i'm like okay this is sitcom story structure i'm learning something yeah and there would be days i felt like uh i mean i was there almost to the last season but uh i was the only reason i wasn't there last season is because i sold a show i sold my own show to nbc so i was like i gotta go because i got a show to do how many they do oh how many of

your show how many what was that called it was called it's called built to last yeah how hard is that first show canceled yeah um they did i think we did eight uh-huh but they aired maybe three yeah and so that was the first like you're like i'm now i'm in it. Fucking heartbreak. Yes. Yes. Although, when it was canceled, honestly, the day that they called to say, we're done, you're canceled. I had already, I was on my way to New York. I already knew that call was coming.

But I was leaving that day. I was only hanging around the offices. Right. Because I had to go to San Francisco to do my half-hour comedy. So I was like, maybe this is what it was supposed to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to go do this half-hour. So you're always doing stand-up. Yeah.

At that point, I still had my stand-up. So I did live in single until I got my own show, until I sold that show. I mean, I created that show. It was for Royale watkins i don't know if you i remember him is he all right he's good he's actually doing real good he and he's got all kinds of stuff happening with kevin hart he's doing real good so uh but i did his show and then we got canceled um and part of the thing that made me crazy was like okay i i got my own show on but i wasn't a showrunner.

And so that was like, now that's the next thing. It's just like when I did comedy. It was like, okay, why didn't that work? Yeah. All right. Now the variable is I got to be in charge of the vision. Right. So that I never really got the vision out with that.

So now if I'm going to make this damn thing work, I got to be a showrunner. Yeah. All right. Then, boom, what happens? Robert Townsend calls again because he had this show on Fox. Now it's called Appearance. He had a sitcom. Yeah.

They need a showrunner. I talked to his partner. His partner and I had a better relationship. This woman who was like the partner in his company. She's a genius she she wound up working at bt still a genius uh even though now we don't talk but she's a genius what's her name her name is loretta jones okay and um and this is for parenthood parenthood so she's like you know we need a showrunner so i go over there and so now i got showrunner credentials okay and then i go from there and then moisha was like hey now I got showrunner credentials. Okay. And then I go from there. And then Moesha was like, hey, we need a showrunner.

Can you come over here to help? And there I helped the woman who created the show. Yeah. And I even said, well, there's a lady there who created the show. Why do you need a showrunner? And they said, well, it used to be her and her. She was a partner. Yeah.

Her and her partner created the show. Right. And now her partner's leaving to work on another show. And's never run a show by herself yeah and i go okay all right that's what you say but then i do that and then i see how the networks how they uh undercut show runners i was like oh you know i basically kind of watched them try to devalue not even try to they devalued her by just by bringing you in. Well, bringing me in. And that was the thing. Like, first I had to make it clear to her, I'm not here to hurt you.

Honestly, if I can help, I'll help. If you want me to shut up and get out of here and just make them happy because I'm here, I'll be that guy. Yeah. So, she and then the staff felt the same way. Like, who is this clown? Right. And the chef was intimidating. way. Like, who is this clown? And the chef was intimidating. My thing was, I know I'm funny.

Like, there would be there's episodes of Living Single where I've 80 percent of the jokes. That's me. That's me. That's me. Story wise, like I said, that's where I needed my help at this place. You know, there's funny people. They got good jokes. And they know story.

And, I mean, dude, there's a woman who I worked with who was a Harvard MBA. She's writing jokes on Moesha. Yeah. And then a guy who has got two degrees. He's got an English degree from Stanford and journalism from Columbia. He's working at Moesha. And at the point where they fired the showrunner and i'm the showrunner now i'm their boss yeah you know and it was like a point i'm like what am i doing i shouldn't be their boss but then i was like but you know what they shouldn't be writing comedy for them i'm better at the jokes but um so then I got that.

And then if you talk to Moesha fans, I ruined the show. We don't have time for that. But then I left. Moesha was coming back. As we were told, Moesha was coming back. Yeah. And my agents were like, dude, you're going to be in this position. You're going to do this and that and other thing. And I said, I can't do this.

This is crazy. This show and these people. I like Brandy. And I liked her mom. Her mom was getting vilified in the press. But she was cool to me. And I got what she was up to. But I was like, I can't.

I got it. I need something else. And then Larry had called me. Larry Wilmore had called me larry wilmore had uh called we had a mutual friend yeah and she said larry would like to talk to you we met in pasadena yeah and at a hooters right that's totally larry so we met there and he told me about bernie he told me what he liked about it and everything and so i called my agent i said i want to do this Bernie Mac thing.

And it was like SNL all over for them. They were having flashbacks. Right. They were like, but Moesha's coming back. Right. For a full season. That Bernie Mac thing is an experiment and Fox might not do it. And I was like, let's do the Bernie Mac thing. And then Moesha got canceled i had already made

the jump which i think i i think larry appreciated i had made the jump he was a showrunner yeah he was a showrunner and the creator and that was a deal it's like i i had decided i'm gonna be part of this thing before moesha blew up it was like didn't it wasn't like oh i can't go back to moesha so hey dude can i have that job it was like i want this job instead of that and now with was working with bernie good that was amazing i feel like that was the best work i've ever done and especially since part of my fed upness and kind of even with with moesha was like, okay, I learned sitcom story structure, but I'm sick of it. I'm like, how does anybody at home who watches sitcoms for two years not know where these stories are going? And then Bernie was like, we don't know where these stories are.

This is great. We can go anywhere as long as we go somewhere funny and somewhere that's emotionally satisfying. It's like when we get to the end, if you look back through it emotionally, wherever Bernie was, of course it went that way. Yeah. As opposed to like structure wise where we set this up and he said this and that happened. Sure. He was driving it. Totally.

And I love that. And that was all. And Larry was like, yeah, no yeah no we're gonna do it this way he was amazing Bernie was amazing the first two years of that show that was like all amazement and it was what I needed

because I got divorced on my way and then Bernie and the way I was living my life like at Bernie was like it bought me back to life. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then, you know, and like I said, the first two years were amazing.

It was the last three years, which, honestly, the last two years is when I was running the show. But pale, paled in comparison. You were there the whole time? I was there from first, the pilot no but then from first episode to the last episode i was there were you tight with him bernie yeah yeah yeah and and and and yeah and i like i like i love her i love bernie i know oh i i'm sorry i did actually listen to John because somebody told me John mentioned me. The people that I came out, the people that I feel the best about meeting in L.A., when John and I were working together.

John Ridley. I love him. I feel like, first of all, I have defended John so many times to so many people. Because I really feel like he's like my little brother. Just age-wise, he's younger than us. But he's been so in your face about things. And people are like, what's up with that fucking John Ridley? And I go, you know, hold on a second.

Hold on, man. Hold on. Hold on. John's got a point yeah we don't have to agree with him right you know but he's got a point you know like he was not a big fan of going on strike so all the people like this fucking guy yeah but um him and bernie were the guys john bernie and larry yeah i mean larry i felt like i felt like john was is close to a brothers i'm gonna get larry was the best mentor ever and still is and i'm like larry's like that kind of guy like he's like that professor that i go did you like that dissertation am i good is that Is that anywhere close to what you were trying to teach me? You know, and he's also the kind of, Larry's definitely the kind of guy who does not suffer fools gladly.

And I'm like, but I'm a fool. I'm kind of foolish. Yeah, yeah. And Bernie, just for a guy from the, Bernie actually reminds me of my Uncle Everett. Although I doubt he's ever had any live grenades. Yeah, yeah. But just full-blown about life. That's it.

The thing is, now, I'm taking care of my kids. Yeah. I want it. We couldn't get into it. But I think you can get some of my thing is to be a good dad. Yeah. And so with my kids kids i'm doing this whole thing like i'm family first yeah i'm trying to be a good dad and by my standards not somebody else's

fucking standards right but this is what i decide a good dad is and um but then there's those times when i go i think i'm using that as an excuse i gotta i can be a good dad and a creative person and be out here and show the world who i am and maybe even get some respect because my daughter could care less about me but i i love her yeah so much i only did one story about my daughter because father's day just was just gone and they at she's going to this little summer camp slash summer school thing. And so they got black cardboard, black construction paper. They splatter white paint on it. It's going to be the stars.

They put this work. Paste a rocket ship and then a little picture of her. Yeah. And then on the side, the teachers had written, you know, I love you to the moon and back. Happy Father's Day. So she does hers. Love you to the moon and back happy father's day so she does hers love you to the moon and back happy father's day and then she writes over in the corner uh but not really right and i say and she says i wrote not really but it's like she doesn't want to be fake and so she goes i go in there and look at it she says i had to write not

really i said because you don't really feel this way, right? You don't know that expression, love you to the moon and back. She's like, yeah, I don't know. I said, well, here's the thing, though. Just tell me this. Because I'm not my grandmother. I'm not beating her ass because she's not fitting in. I'm me, and I want to learn who my kids are.

And I want them to be who they are. And I'm just going to guide them when they need guidance. I said, how far do you love me? Just, you you know it doesn't have to be to the moon and back and we're staying and we just came in the house and she's showed me the thing and she goes oh okay and she looks around and she says okay maybe from here from where we are in the foyer and she walks to like the the far in the living room yeah Yeah. She looks out the window. She says, probably from over there where I was to like the back of that house. And I'm like, okay. You know what I'm saying?

That's something. That's you doing you. Yeah. Which is what I'm like, that's what I got to allow myself to do. Right. This is like the moon and back. Who? That's crazy.

Every fucking body in the classroom said that yeah without even knowing what it means exactly but from this foyer to that house across the back of that house across the street that's me and you baby yeah that's reasonable so yeah so i'm all about that and uh i got a couple projects that i'm working on but i was like like, I'm feeling like I got to wrap that up and then I got to start doing me again because I can't just go away, even though I feel like I've gone away. Well, I feel like you're back. Thank you, Mark.

And it was nice talking to you, buddy. Yeah, it's good talking to you, man. Thanks, man. Thank you so much. There you go. That was Warren Hutcherson, a guy I started out with. Very funny guy. His life in show business and his life in life.

The book, our book, Waiting for the Punch, can be pre-ordered at WTFpod.com and at MarkMarronBook.com. I've been emailing all the people in the book about them getting the book. Obviously, I'm going to send them a book, but it's very nice that everybody's getting back to me. Makes me feel like people like me. All right. I'm just going to play some unprepared guitar with no effects. People seem to enjoy it, but I got to...

People. The two guys that emailed. Yeah, it's just a strat into the dirty old man. 58 Deluxe. Kinda cranked. Thank you. Boomer lives. It's a night for the whole family.

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