WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 844 - Lorde

Episode Date: September 6, 2017

Not every global pop superstar would feel at home in Marc's garage, but Lorde isn't your average global pop superstar. The singer-songwriter takes some time before kicking off her worldwide Melodrama tour to talk with Marc about her life in New Zealand, her frequent collaborator Jack Antonoff, and the math of making pop music. They also go down a music rabbit hole as Lorde reveals herself to be a knowledgable student of classic rock, power pop, rhythm and blues, and Phil Collins. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckadelics? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast, WTF. How's it going? So today on the show, sort of, I don't know if it's certainly not an off-the-grid guest, but it might not be a guest that you would assume i would have on the show uh the singer and songwriter and pop phenom she's great lord lord is here well she was i talked to her the other day she was here in this garage with me sitting right over there big pop star lord and i'm old but uh i gotta be honest with you you know i'll tell you why i i like her a lot i actually love her voice she moves me what can i tell you so when i got the opportunity to talk to her i took it uh my buddy john daniel

who you've heard on this show uh is actually her manager right now at this point, his company and him. But I don't know if it came through him. It must have come through him somehow. But, you know, we get pitched people and I'm like, I'll talk to Lord. I like Lord. She works a lot on this new album with Jack Antonoff, who I've had on the show, who I also like. You know, I'm not a pop fanatic, but I can certainly appreciate it. I'm always sort of astounded by people

that manufacture the big pop music. So that's going to happen. That's going to happen right in your ears here in a minute. I'm going to talk to Lord. I know it's weird, right? It was weird for me too, believe me. Felt a little nervous, you know? It's a little generational difference.

But I can hang with the youngsters, with the folks, the young people. I can. The special is up and out. My special, Too Real, is available on Netflix and you can go watch it. I'm very happy with it. I'm proud of it. It looks good. It's a whole piece of work.

People are digging it. I'm getting a lot of good feedback. I appreciate it and I'm glad you like it. I'm proud of it. It looks good. It's a whole piece of work. People are digging it. I'm getting a lot of good feedback. I appreciate it and I'm glad you like it. I'm glad you're getting some laughs. It's very laugh efficient this special. What else is happening? Still no nicotine, man. Still no nicotine. And I, you know, it's made me a little, I'm not sure what's happening now. You know, it's made me a little, I'm not sure what's happening now. I'm drinking tea because I got off the coffee with the nicotine. And I'm not, I don't think I'm very good at, you know, always paying attention to ordering online. Because I like the PG tips.

I like the British tea. So I ordered some British tea. But I didn't realize that I got a bag of 1,150 tea bags. So this fucking pillow-sized bag is delivered to my house. And I'm like, this is too much pressure. Like, that's a lifetime's worth of tea. And I literally mean that. I don't know how much I'm going to drink. I don't drink it every day.

That tea could outlive me at this point and that kind of bothers me because then this bag of the thousand eleven hundred tea bags becomes this harbinger of doom like am i going to outlive this bag of tea that looks awkward it's just a lot of pressure i've got a little tin that i can put like 60 70 bags in but then there's another 1100 this is the problem with bulk it's too much pressure i guess the nicotine the lack of nicotine is not helping my clarity per se is what i'm saying and also there there comes the question of where's it going to go next? You know, when you have an addictive personality, like if you really got it and you get rid of one,

where's it going to show up? It's whack-a-mole business. So where's it going to come out? I mean, it's either going to be like, I got Lorde on the show coming up here, and I know there's going to be young people listening. But with this addiction thing, first of all, try to avoid it. If you're a young person and you're listening, don't vape the nicotine

because that's a lifelong commitment. Try to not do the meth because, again, your teeth will fall out and your hair will fall out. The weed is a little insidious. I mean, if you can handle it fine if you like it okay maybe you don't think it's a big deal to smoke some weed or vape some weed every day but it could become your life and it can it could it can distance you from reality so stay aware of that lay off the opiates all right right, because that's a lifelong commitment if you live.

If you don't know me and you're just tuning in, I've got 18 years sober, but I was doing the nicotine lozenges for a long time, and now I've taken them away. So either I'm going to start eating, which I've already begun. The eating has commenced. The filling the pie hole constantly has already commenced. So now it's just a matter of preparing enough healthy food to shove into my face when I eat compulsively. So this is where I'm at now. A lot of work in the kitchen.

So a lot of stuff being prepared. Sweet potatoes, yams, mushrooms. I cooked some cabbage, brown rice, chopped a jicama up. That's not an easy thing to get that skin off a jicama. So now I've got all these healthy snacks. So I'm just shoveling that into my face. So that's active. Now, the one you got to worry about is the one that we keep in our pants. That addiction can be a little gnarly. Thankfully, I'm, I have a girlfriend, but you know, there's always the internet and that's no way to spend a day and feel good about yourself.

You don't want to spend a day just pulling at that thing or rubbing at that thing. I mean, it's nice. It'll get you away, but you don't finish and feel great. So I'm trying to manage that. Right now, it looks like we're moving a lot of stuff into the face face which can become a problem it's all part of a bigger cycle it'll eventually i'm going to be like i just have a cup of coffee eventually i'd be like i'm gonna maybe have a cigar and then eventually you're gonna hear me sucking on those lozenges again i've certainly got enough tea that i can tell you.

So, Lord. Oh, Lord, Lord. Yes. Lord is here. Now, I got to be honest with you. I enjoy Lord's music and I seek it out. And sometimes when I'm working out at the gym with my trainer. I'll have her put on a Lord station. The first time I saw Lord, I saw her at that, when they inducted, induced.

They induced Nirvana. Would somebody please? They induced Nirvana into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They inducted and Lord did a song. And I was like, what? Who is this girl? What is happening? What is this girl? What is happening? What is this voice?

What is this intensity? What is this talent? Where does this come from? And then I saw her in SNL not long ago. And I'm like, there she is again. What is this voice? What are these feels? See, I'm using the language.

What are these feels? See, I'm using the language. What are these feels I'm feeling? And I tried to wrap my brain around something that it's very hard to explain. You can't just go like, why do you move me with that voice of yours? Where does that come from, youngster? That's not the right approach. But I think I did all right. Her second album, Melodrama, came out in June. And the Melodrama World Tour kicks off later this month.

This was recorded just three days after the VMAs, where she did her flu-inspired dance, and she was on the mend a bit when this was recorded. Still a little flu-y. So that's where we're at. This is me and Liz. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats.

But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly.

Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. Lorde. Streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lord.

I had those ladies come. Those hot ladies, the drip doctors. Do you know about this? What? The drip? The what? You can just pay these ladies $200 and they will come and just shoot you up with this cocktail. It could be for a hangover.

It could be a semi-professional sports person. And they'll shoot you with what? With like B12s? It's like all the Bs, all the Cs, all the electrolytes, you know. But it's like the start of a porno. They're like in their little uniforms. They're like so cute, you know. It seems like such a of a porno they're like in their little uniforms they're like so cute you know it seems like such a hollywood thing to me so fucking i mean you could not find that in new zealand they wouldn't do that for you it's not a service no it's not a service anywhere no it's like i had it i had it so i'm hoping it's uh gonna help me it's a

complete well no i mean help me recover vitamins are good how could it mean, vitamins are good. How could it be bad? Vitamins are good. I think it's fine, right? I think it's... But like the real question is, so, okay, so you're about to do, was this before you did the VMAs or after? This was maybe an hour and a half pre-VMAs, just the time you want to have a drip directly. So it's like an IV drip? It's an IV drip.

Yeah, you just push it in. So like what I want to know is like what was the like what's probably more interesting than them coming or whatever that job is these like emergency uh holistic practitioners hotties holistic hotties yeah yeah yeah um is that like was who like the real question is like who knew was like, oh, I know who we got to call. Which handler? Which department did that come from? Ha ha. Yeah, I have a lot of departmental heads.

I just sort of, like, I mean, my tour manager handles people way fancier than I am and is, like, very used to. Not my friend. Not John. No, this is, his name is Richard Coble. He looks after, after like he's looked after a lot of like famous divas in history like um i mean like you know like madonna oh really oh really you know like the whole oh so he's really he's run quite a circus he's he's he's used to like uh i think asking for a vitamin drip at 3 p.m on the day the v maze is like a chill yeah

yeah he's like that's easy no. I know exactly who to call. Yeah, yeah, the drip doctors. The disposing of a body thing, that's a little trickier. I think he even would be okay with that. Of course he would. He'd be like, I will make it happen. He's a tour manager. Yeah.

I got a guy. What town are we in? Oklahoma City? I know a guy here. Exactly. So you started Googling, and what was the panic? What did you come up with? What did you self-diagnose well i thought that i had toxic shock syndrome which every woman is

afraid of you get it from like using tampons was that is that still a thing i didn't know if that was i mean i don't know i i read about one girl who had um had to have some amputation from toxic so i think i'm like that just going to stay in my mind. But it's like every girl's secret fear is that they're going to get toxic shock. I guess, you know, I guess, like, to me, it's not. I don't think dudes are too stressed about. No, no. I don't have problems with that, generally.

But, I mean, I remember hearing about that a lot. And then it just sort of was out of the news. But why wouldn't it still be frightening to women? Yeah, I decided I had that. And I was apparently get itchy hands and feet. And I like my foot started to itch. And I was like, that's it. The big show is calling.

They're summoning me up to the big show. It's time. Is that what you call it? The big show? The big show, yeah. Pop on up to the big show. You don't want to be sick when you get to the big show. No, no.

So how long have you been in town for i've been in town since last wednesday yeah or thursday and do you come here a lot i come here about as little as i can help yeah yeah what's your feeling about it like when you come to i mean look i know you've been at it since you were like 13 You come to, I mean, look, I know you've been at it since you were like 13. And like your entrance, I mean, you understand to some degree what show business looks like from the top level. You know, you kind of came in at the, you know. But I still find it like very. No, it's got to be weird as fuck. Puts me at ease.

It's still a strange thing. Yeah. But I. Like what part of it? You in la the car comes well you land in la all the fucking paparazzi are at the airport oh they're there and so you dream about paparazzi for the next two weeks are they going hey lord lord of course lord and like over here lord well yeah but they're like right by your regular face oh never no it's always lord what am i supposed to call you because your regular name? Touching your face. Oh, never. No, it's always Lord. When am I supposed to call you? Because that was sort of awkward. That was awkward out on the deck. I feel really bad.

I didn't even make that up. You were shouting, Lord, Lord, and I was walking the other way. Yeah, and you were going down my hill. You were going down the hill. What is down that hill? Nothing, just another patio. You have chickens down there? I should have chickens.

You should. There are people who have chickens around here. Chickens are very hip. Did you grow up with chickens? I did not, but I grew up with every other animal. Are you serious? you can imagine. Like what? Anything from axolotls, dogs, cats, guinea pigs, rats, mice, baby mice.

What's an axolotl? An axolotl is like a walking water snake. Oh, my God. Is that a pet in New Zealand? That's a chill pet. Yeah. There are axolotls bumping around. We had it all.

We had literally, we had many fish. Yeah, sure. Fish. We got a lot of pets. So what do people call, what is your name? What should I call you? Elle? So my name is Ella.

Ella. Yes. Just Ella. Exactly. All right. So I'm yelling Lord like an idiot. And I'm just ignoring you. Not turning around.

Of course that's not her name. Do I call you Mark? Yeah, Mark is good. Mark, good. Okay, cool. Perfect. I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.

Please. I can't resist it. Jack Antonoff, who you've met. I love Jack. Yeah, the best. He just rips the shit out of my accent all the time. But his favorite word is festival. Festival.

He goes, festival? We're going to the festival. I'm like, come on my uh my manager's australian and it's hard not to to make fun of it i get it it's different it's weird yours is a little it's like it's almost it's like australian but then just a little further tweet like it makes perfect sense in the proximity of the difference in the accent, right? Yes. Because you can tell the difference, right? Oh, deeply. Yeah. All right.

So you get past the wall of paparazzi. They drive you off to the fancy hotel. Yeah. It's just, it's like so far away from what my life is. And I think, I mean, just New Zealand and America are such different places. And it's something I would never get used to in my life. How many people are like, I'm coming. Do you know a neighborhood I should live in?

I'm about ready to. A lot of people have hit me up. I've been like, I have a spare room. You can take turns. It's a nice spare room. It's so fucking crazy how different it is. It's a nice spare room. It's so fucking crazy how different it is.

And even like, you know, every product here I feel like is like. Yelling at you? They're yelling, but they're yelling in this like voice that makes me feel like an idiot. They're like, no, ouchies. You know, it's like, what the fuck is that? I'm an adult. Like, just tell me the product's going to work. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, there's a lot of, like, weird cartoon shit.

Sure. Products seek to infantilize everybody. That's the way the American economy is built on making sure we're in need. They hide it better in New Zealand. Constant need. Oh, they do? They mask it better. Is it more practical there?

It's much more practical. But also, like, I think there's a thing here, which is, like, they would never, like, I feel like every ad here, it can be an ad for, like, children's vitamins. And then they're, like, may cause a list of serious ailments. They've got to do that. Yeah. That's, like, a lot. And you're, like, oh, my God. Yeah.

We're really going there. They don't do that. Yeah, right away. Yeah. Internal bleeding. Yeah. They fucking go there right on TV. Never-ending diarrhea.

Yes. Yes. Active. Active diarrhea. As they call it when you stay at a hotel, they say don't swim in the pool if you have active diarrhea. I've never heard that in my life. Which I think is disgusting. Active?

Go to any pool in West Hollywood, the little sign will say, do not swim with active diarrhea. It says, maybe I didn't know. It really snaps you out of that motel, rivery. Yeah, yeah. Okay, fuck. It snaps you out of your spa day. Just wondering who is like. Who's active.

Yeah, who's active and not following the rules. So we need to talk about New Zealand. Yes. What do you want to know? You just live there in a neighborhood? I live there in a neighborhood. But you grew up there your whole life. I grew up there my whole life.

And it's beautiful, right? It's so beautiful. Everything about it is beautiful. I mean, it has problems like any country. Like what? Well, we have a real, we have a housing crisis

going on right now, which sucks. And it's like... What does that mean? Too many rich people bought up the old houses? Pretty much. I'm definitely part of that problem,

I think. You are? I bought a house in the last two years. Yeah. It's hard for young people to buy houses? Pretty much. I'm definitely part of that problem, I think. You are? I bought a house in the last two years. It's hard for young people to buy houses and to rent. Now, your parents are both from New Zealand? My parents are both from New Zealand. My mother is Croatian.

How did she get there? How did the Croatians get to New Zealand? There's like 100,000 Dalmatian, Croatian, Yugoslav people in New Zealand. So it's like a big... And they've been there for generations? A lot of them have been there for a long time. There's a thousand kind of Dalmatian, Croatian, Yugoslav people in New Zealand. So it's like a big. And they've been there for generations? A lot of them have been there for a long time. There's a lot of wine. Dalmatians make a lot of wine down there.

And yeah, so I'm Croatian. I have a Croatian citizenship. Yeah? And. You just get that from being Croatian because your mom's Croatian? I got that from being like, I think of like a bit of a fancy famous Croatian. Oh. I think not every Croatian.

They're taking ownership. She's one of ours. So to speak. Yeah. My dad's Irish. Straight up Irish, like from Ireland? He,

no, he was born in New Zealand also, but he, his family is like full Irish, you know, they're O'Connor's. He's one of seven. Full on Catholic.

Full Catholic. Exactly. Exactly. Full Catholic treatment. Exactly. And your mom, Catholic? he's uh one of seven oh full-on catholic full catholic exactly exactly full catholic treatment exactly um and your mom catholic she's uh she's i think she's sort of i think they grew up uh greek orthodox um very religious but it's we're not really a religious family you're not more abstract for us i think it's more abstract the religion i I think. It's more abstract? The religion idea? I just feel quite uncomfortable when I walk into a church. Is that the goal? Are they trying to make you feel? They're designed to terrify you into being humbled.

Yeah, I'm so spirit. I feel like I'm so in touch with the universe on a spiritual level, but I don't get. And you walk into a church and it just shuts it right off. Yeah, so it's terrifying. It's elaborate enough to make you trying to trick you into thinking that's the universe maybe yeah have you been to italy i have have you ever gone to those cathedrals in italy where you're just like what the fuck it's crazy is it maybe that would take it to a level i would understand well i don't know if

it'll make you feel any better oh that's worse but it's certainly designed to create awe i i'm sometimes i am a fan of of the uh of the awe yeah the beauty terror sure uh right intersection yeah you know but it doesn't need to be all gaudy yeah i think of being all gaudy i mean it doesn't get more gaudy than like a giant beach in new zealand i know Where the waves are just like smacking everything. You know, it's like kind of... I can only imagine. I've not been there. I've been to Australia

and that means nothing. I know that's almost condescending for me to say that. Like I was close. Yeah, it's not. I was relatively close to New Zealand. Yeah, you got to get down there. I'm going to.

There's something about it. It's very special. I'm going to show up at your house and be like, Hey, remember? Please don't do that. No, I got this big room. Yeah.

Just book it. But what did you grow up with? What was your mom, if it wasn't a religious house, what inspired you when you were a kid? What did they lay on you, your parents? What did they lay on me? For better or for worse. For better or for worse.

on you your parents what did they lay on me for better or for worse for worse they just i think like my main thing when i think about it is like my mom is a poet she was a um a school teacher um was she a real poet she's a real she's a big deal she's like a real poet like she's won awards in new zealand like uh she's amazing a lot of books out she's put books out yeah she's put uh she hasn't put one out a while, but they are all like big deals when she puts them out. She's badass. Yeah. But I think she sort of- Poetry's tough.

Oh, I couldn't imagine. I find it- But you're a songwriter. I mean, you do know. Oh, it's so different though. I'm writing short stories, you know. Right. I'm not writing poems.

So what kind of form does she- Is she like free verse or was she tightly structured? She's pretty free verse. Yeah. Yeah? She's so good. And you were reading her poetry like when you were a kid? I wasn't, but I think what she really instilled in me was this like sensory kind of like magnification.

Like I am such a, I'm so governed by all of my senses and all the work that i make yeah i have like crazy synesthesia and what is that synesthesia is like uh when like senses overlaps with me um you know colors and uh textures and tones correspond with music and words and kind of linguistic stuff and oral stuff so how does that manifest itself like do you like go into an overload or like when you hear certain sounds you see things or it's a lot it's a lot like do you have to stop talking sometimes i have to um yeah is it medicatable do you would you I wish. I actually do wish sometimes because it is very overwhelming. What does it feel like when it's overwhelming to have that? I mean, it guides a lot of the music that I make.

For sure, I make very visual music. Yeah. Very colorful music. So for me, when something is just you know ultraviolet or peak blue or whatever i'm like heading in the right direction but it can be a lot and it is like hard to um i basically have to make music with my eyes closed like it's a lot i can't you know some people have tvs going in the studio i would find that impossible because you know my girlfriend has the hypersensitivity thing where noise is kind of yes yeah yeah h i don't know i forget what it's called it's but it's a real thing yeah it's where

you're like if you go into an echoey room you're like i gotta get out of here yeah yeah i uh when i'm in uh i've been in a couple of near car crashes and both times the person next to me has said why did you put your hands over your ears instead of your eyes you know most people would not want to look, but I don't want to hear it like this. Cause it'll just blow your mind out. Yeah. So it's too potent.

It's terrifying. So how did you like, what, what music were you listening to as a kid where, you know, this wouldn't destroy your brain? I mean, everything sort of destroys one's brain.

You know, what is quite good for synesthesia is weirdly guitar music is not so overwhelming in terms of so like i can listen to acoustic guitar music you mean like i could listen to neil young or i could listen to you know even fleetwood mac was not so overwhelming synesthetically like how which which era fleetwood mac the girls are i go way back with fleetwood mac i go way fucking back with i'm you go go back to the blues? I'm Peter Green. Come on! Come on!

I mean, I was just saying yesterday, I was like, I need some Peter Green Fleetwood Mac merch. Because they have Rumors Fleetwood Mac merch. Everyone's got Tango Fleetwood Mac merch. Where's the Peter Green Fleetwood Mac merch? I just got a Peter Green record I didn't even know about. Which one? I talk about him constantly.

I'm obsessed with Fleetwood Mac, Peter Green. And I think you have to think of them as two different bands. They're so different. It's the greatest shit ever. And it's so fun to start as a Rumors Fleetwood Mac fan. And go back. And realize this entire, I mean, it's like Genesis. It's like getting to hear the two Genesis.

Yeah. But the thing with Genesis is like those guys, no, like Peter Green becomes this mysterious figure. Oh, insane. Did you see the documentary? I have not seen it. I've heard about it. I've got to see it.

You can just watch it on YouTube. It's a man of the world. God, I'm obsessed with it. He's just this little chubby guy now, like a little old dude. I wish people gave him more credit. I never, you know, anyone who knows about Peter Green, I never shut up about it. He's the best. He's the best singer, the best blues player.

It's the best. But so that stuff is a little more, that's a bit intense synesthetically. But so like stuff growing up that I, which I've sort of all just come back to now, like Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, you know. Sure. All that, like just like simple Graham Nash demos, like listening to the stuff. The Graham Nash guy? You like Graham Nash person?

Obsessed. The best. You're not a Graham Nash person. You're out of all stills person i can do i like stills voice i can imagine being more of a stills but gram nash is like for the ladies i guess so yeah he's very he's a little too uh it's a mosh it's a mosh yeah yeah stills is a little like i like stills his early guitar plays great singer i had crosby in here he's great shit you know who said nice things about you is uh r. Oh, my goodness. Really?

Yeah. Wow. He's like, I'd like you to write a song for it. I like to write a satirical song for someone like Lorde. Oh, my God. Randy Newman. He once wrote it. He said that.

Shit. Yeah. Well, thanks, Randy Newman. Randy Newman's great. So you're going back to those guys, the harmonies and stuff. You love it? Yeah. So I sort of like, I fucking love it.

And I love Mamas and the Papas. Like that gets a little bit intense synesthesia wise for me. Mamas and the Papas is like. Because of all the voices? Well, just not the voices, but, you know, instantly they're just like, there's this crazy modulation going on. Or all of a sudden we're in a different key and it's like, that can get crazy synesthesia wise.

Put on some Moms and Papas. That's like, really go there. But is it a good feeling? It's the best. I mean, it's again, it's beauty terror. It's horrific and it's wonderful. It's very frightening. It's built in.

It's fully built in. You don't have to go outside yourself to access it. It's not getting off this train. It's what i'm dealing so where the hell do you find peter green now like now you how do you just because you gotta someone's got to turn you on to that i remember i got into this um i was on youtube in like a youtube hole when i was like 14 and i found this uh oh yeah just like a 20 minute like they just must have had some like room mic going and going, and they just sort of all, he's just sort of talking to everyone, and they just sort of start.

The sort of depth of sadness and feeling in his playing and his singing. Oh, my gosh. It's sort of mind-blowing. Oh, fuck, Showbiz Blues. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a great song. So fun. Yeah, that's a great song.

I used to play that before I performed. I had it on my mix. Oh, man. mix oh man yeah i love that one it's good it's kind of a hard one to find it's yeah exactly so this is that bizarre little um clip on youtube it was just sort of them like talking to each other and building it and i was like oh i uh about to have a little moment with peter green oh building the song how well what's that experience because i noticed like like when i was looking at the credits because i I've talked to Antonoff before, and he's like a little wizard. And his whole story is kind of amazing. He's such an amazing musician, but he's also got an incredible feel for things.

The difference between, what is it, Steel Train and Bleachers is kind of profound. Yeah. And that he just sort of appropriated this sort of hippie trip to to sort of ease him through grief absolutely and then like he was sort of done with it he's like he looked he didn't look back on that that album or those albums with but he obviously has gotten an amazing talent and intuition for music so when you see something like peter green and those guys just building up from a song how do you guys do it because i noticed on the credits there were no when i looked at i don't know where

i looked at them up maybe on wikipedia there were people involved but it didn't say who played the instruments it said people mixed or produced or like it was a bunch of producer listings yeah yeah like who the fuck's playing piano what's going on that's a good question what the fuck's going on so so our process is like um everything uh with me starts like in the smallest possible capacity i don't like to write with anyone in the room like it's very minimal you know really just be two bodies and that will be jack and i um but did you show up with these songs for the new record? I would show up with big arms of them. I like to let stuff happen in a room because I think it can be kind of amazing. Yeah.

And we would sort of sit at the piano and things would start growing. And then a lot of that production stuff is because we wouldn't let anyone in our room. Right. We would send it out get it back get the session take tiny little moments and add them to our mess but like what are those moments like i don't need like for me like i'll record some guitar in here yeah like but yeah yeah but it seems like things are are much more complicated at the level that electronic music like it all gets a bit kind of weird. I mean, obviously Jack is playing

a lot of like analog synths all the time. He played the piano on the record. There were like occasional guitar moments. There's a lot of piano. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it's actual piano. Real piano.

And Jack's on that. Jack's... And he's playing some guitar. Tickling the old Ivory. He played a tiny bit of guitar, a lot of synths, and we just programmed a bunch of drums. And that was it?

It was kind of it. I mean, my last record, I had literally not one real instrument and not one in the whole record. Not even a nice analog synth. We were fucking broke. That makes me sad. Why? I think it's magical.

It's definitely magical. I come from that like Culture of like No one having any instruments And just What does that mean? We just like Sounds come from

Computers and like You know what I mean? Yeah It's kind of I think it's Really magical There's something kind of like Communist about it

Like You don't have to Often As you get Like have to often as you get uh like more into music like you know i started making like a second album which by that point people are like oh should we show you some rich stuff and they like put you in the rich studio you know they show you like the rich mixing desk and you're like this doesn't feel like any like any kid could have you know i love the idea of every kid getting the same set of cracked plugins that they steal from the internet.

Right. And that's how we made the song that won us a Grammy. It's literally cracked plugins. That's how you made Royals? Yeah. And you didn't want to... We didn't pay for Pro Tools for like a year after that. We should start paying for those things.

Don't worry, Pro Tools, we pay now. I guess it's not a culture that I come from. You know, you don't play any instrument well enough, really. But I can program the shit out of a drum, you know. Yeah, that's what you grew up doing. Yeah. But you didn't, like, when you first started singing or writing songs,

when did that start? Like, I know it's all in... It has to be relatively recent memory, you know, because you're. When I started singing and stuff. Yeah. I mean, like, did you do it in school? Did you, were you a performer or what? I didn't really do it in school because I feel like you had to know how to, like, read music at school, which i couldn't do but i was like in and out of the like i was always in the barbershop room like putting together some crazy barbershop quartet piece which i feel like is very much my roots now you know i'm like stacking vocals like oh you what's the barbershop

room you know like quartet music sure like oh yeah yeah yeah so you're putting together like baritone and bass and so you're doing that by yourself crazy blends no i would be with like the other like singing nerds. Okay. So there were humans involved. There were sometimes other humans involved. And I did, I was in like a theater company when I was a kid, like a local.

Kids theater? Kids theater, yeah. So you're a show person? I was somewhat a show person, but I was like cripplingly nervous and like I would have to step so far outside of myself for that to even be something I could do. Right. And even now I'm like, it's very hard for me to be an outward person.

Is it? So do you have to go into like a trance almost? Because it seems like when you perform, it's very engaged and very like you know like it has an effect that's what they say yeah well you say it's uh makes people very uncomfortable no no i i i could i'm enjoying looking at this hammer just as a side note what's going on with this with the broken hammer yeah it was a it was i think like peter green it's dropped it off one day yeah yeah it's a peter green artifact that's actually Peter Green. It's true. Dropped it off one day. Yeah, yeah. It's a Peter Green artifact. That's actually Peter Green's hammer.

I think I found it. It's cool. On the street. I like this. I don't know. It was a piece. It was a fragment. With the cat.

Yeah, that's an unpressed record right there, that orange bit. Oh, fuck. That's what. Shit. That's right before they squish it into a record. That's amazing. Isn't that wild? I've never seen that before.

Yeah. I love that. Sorry, I cut you record. That's amazing. Isn't that wild? I've never seen that before. Yeah. I love that. Sorry, I cut you off. Oh, no, but, yeah, but I guess it's- Oh, it's performing. Yeah, I mean, it's, I really have to just dial all the way out of the rest of my life and all the way into that

and like totally live inside it to be able to do it. Yeah. Do you choreograph? Oh, no. I mean, i choreograph a dance for the first time at the vmas the other day so you don't do that kind of show oh no i uh i just let it happen it was like fun all of a sudden you're like that's great i'm on my knees on the grass and you're kind of 200 meters away from the stage we're at what's happening everyone's

like get back here. Does that happen? Do you go that far? I go, I run. I really run. I run far. I've gotten way far before. And it feels good to do that. It feels amazing.

I always take my shoes off down there as well. When you perform? Yeah. If it looks like there's not going to be a bunch of like used syringes down there, I'll like to just take a shoe off and go for a run. Well, that's good. I'm glad that you're at least careful. So you're doing barbershop music with other nerds. You're in school. You're

performing a bit. But at some point there must have been, you know, how does it come together that you start writing and performing music? It wasn't all electronic at the beginning, no? It's always been pretty. It's way less electronic now. The fact that i had like you know i have had this big renaissance with like all of this 60s and 70s guitar music and yeah you know i uh i'm like i truly come from a very hip-hop very electronic background um and and the vocal stuff was kind of the the main live element for a long time yeah um but i don't know i i was uh i got into it i guess like i started right i mean it was just i've always

been a singer there's never been a guitar guy in your life a guitar guy you know the guy that plays guitar i mean there was like i i did like a handful of um you know i played some like covers when i was like 12 yeah for a short time you're saying that like it was a long ago but that's like a year before you became that was like a solid nine years ago mac i will have you know but you were on the brink Hot decade Yeah Yes I think when I was 14 I started like Properly writing music I was We wrote Royals

I was 15 And then We who's we? Joel and I So Joel was My The guy who I first started Writing songs with

And he Where'd you know him from? Produced stuff We met in New Zealand He's a New Zealand guy? Yeah He lives in LA now He's a producer He's a new zealand guy yeah he lives in la now he's a producer he's a bridge he's anna songwriter did he find you he did not we were

introduced um i like basically was sort of approached by the record company because you were performing where because i they saw me sing in a school talent show. They saw a video of it. Like high school? Intermediate school. So that's. Junior high. Yeah, sort of. Yeah.

So they were like, you got to see this. Somebody said. Someone said you got to see this. Someone's parents would tape you. So get this. So this is the guitar guy, the short-lived moment of guitar guy. His parents actually sent it in. My parents were like, what are you doing?

How dare you do this? My parents are like, what are you doing? How dare you do this? My parents are like, we want you to be a lawyer. Like, don't do this. So you were on stage with that guy and his parents shot it? Yeah, his dad shot it, I think. And at that time it was you singing and he's playing guitar? He's playing, yes. Guitar guy.

Guitar guy. His name is Louie. He's a very sweet boy. Okay. Yeah. And are you guys still friends i am gonna he lives in a different country now but i'm gonna try see him on tour oh okay yeah so you and louis are louis parents are like just these kids got something and they send it into a

friend of theirs who they know or i'm i'm not actually like that part of it is weirdly unclear to me and it's something that i've never like pursued because it was just one of those bizarre like moments of fate i think yeah but for a long time the record company were like we want you to do this thing um and i was like no thanks like i don't um what was the thing well so funny they initially were like oh we could just like you know just stone you you know just like sing a bunch of like old school songs yeah loved i mean she was wonderful but um you know, Joss Stone, you, you know, just like sing a bunch of like old school songs. I loved, I mean, she was wonderful, but,

um, you know, I knew that like I was already writing then and like, you know, making my own clothes and like my room was just like this insane fucking collage fest. Like it was never going to be like, I was never like sit down and sing like a change is going to come,

you know what I mean? So I was like, let me just, uh, make your own clothes, think about a way this is going to work. And so they sort of introduced me to a couple of songwriters. Then I met Joel.

Then I realized, oh, fuck, I've just met the rest of my life. This is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. He impressed you. He just showed me what it was that I could do. He didn't understand how fucking compulsive writing a song is and having it tick oh really the boxes you need to take in your brain and that was like the first moment where i really met my synesthesia in a big way writing songs and it's just like it's like drugs you know seeing all these colors and just sitting in the studio and chasing it for like 18

hours because you're like i just have to get this thing down. I was like, oh, God. It's very clear to me I've met the thing that is going to compel me for the rest of my life. Well, so when you talk about a challenge like that, because I've only, you know, I recently watched the Jimmy Iovine Dr. Dre thing, you know, to spend 17 hours on a song. Like, okay, let's take a song. i'm sure you've talked about royals enough but let's like let's now that you know this is the the new album

when the single is green light which i saw you do on snl and it reminded me that i liked you because the last but my only experience really in has been visual both times and singing, but it was with the Nirvana induction. Right. Like, that's the first time I saw you where I was like, what the fuck just happened? Me too, me too. Chris, no one's telling you.

What am I doing? It's stupid. But like the challenge of a song like that. So you're sitting with Jack. Now, what do you do for 17 hours? So you have words and what's the nitpicking? Oh, the nitpicking. I mean, Jack would happily not nitpick to the level that I,

I mean, I'm just, I really come from such a, like I grew up listening to all this like classic 70s music. And I also just was obsessed with pop music. I was a kid in the best pop music time ever, which was 2001 to 2007, right? Okay. You're like, fine. Well, if we take the 80s out of that. Who are these artists?

Tell me, because I don't know. I mean, it was the Timbaland moment. It was like, we have Nelly Furtado making the most profound pop music of the 2000s. Like it was just, you know, we have Justin Timberlake making huge sex love sounds. Right. So that was your aspiration. I just, I saw how powerful it was when you really believed in the the like tenements and you really stick to the rules of it like like what what are the rules just like you know if you add an extra syllable

onto something you know onto a verse in a pop song or if you fit in a word that doesn't quite sing when you sing it like you're just shooting yourself in the foot you have to be so you're looking for that hook too right i mean like even in royals i think on the first day it went um magnums may back diamonds on your like magnum of champagne yeah but magnums may back that doesn't fucking sing like even if you want the word magnums in there it's like no no no we got to bounce crystal maybe you know it's just shit like that that you have to obey. Yeah. And so I really like, so the meticulousness comes from like. I want you to sing the whole verse now.

Oh, God. I'm so sick, Mark. No, I know. It's just so funny. I almost died. You're just making an example. And I'm like, oh, that's from this album. Yeah, but so like with a song like Greenlight, it's like, it's just like I'm very specific

on like tenses and stuff. Jack would be like, just, you can just say this. It sounds good. And I'm like, no, no, because using that tense completely transforms this. Like then or now kind of thing? I don't know. There's like little things like, so the first verse goes, I do my makeup in somebody else's car, which is like a specific vignette from my life. Literally sitting in the front seat trying to do my eyeliner in somebody else's car, which is like a specific vignette from my life.

Literally sitting in the front seat trying to do my eyeliner in a different boy's car. Which is like very like, boom, new relationship. Second verse is, so it goes, I do my makeup in somebody else's car. Next one is, sometimes I wake up in a different bedroom. You know, it's just those tiny little things that cinch a pop song together in the best way. Yeah, and they're tight. They're poetic and they have legs.

There's math, but the images, you know what I mean? I think so. Yeah, they're very concise. I think, yeah, I'm like the biggest Carver head of all time. I just grew up reading Carver. You like it tight. I like it fucking tight. Tight and sad if you like Raymond Carver.

Tight and sad. That's the vibe. Dancing and crying. Tight and sad. That's it fucking tight. Tight and sad if you like Raymond Carver. Tight and sad. That's the vibe. Dancing and crying. Tight and sad. Good. That's it. Yeah. But so there was like four years between these records, right?

Mm-hmm. What were you doing? Just having a life? I was touring for ages. I feel like people forget. You weren't on Royals on that first record? On Pure Heroine, yeah. You're like, what is it?

Let me find it on the computer. I listened to it. It's okay. You're an easier artist to research. There's only two fucking records. There's two records. You know, like, even if I like somebody. What are you going to do when you get Peter Green in here?

You're going to have to like. I've had Neil Young in here. Oh, shit. I've had people with, like, you think they only have, you love five of their records. And you think maybe they have 10 records out. But then you go look, they're like, oh, there's 90. Oh, dear. But it gets a little tricky.

But you know what's interesting, though, is it's two records. But because I talked to Antonoff, and I know that this math you're talking about, it's sort of fascinating, the idea of fully consciously making a hit record. You know, like to make a pop song. Yeah, yeah. You know, like when I heard Greenlight for the first time when I saw you on SNL, and it goes into like the little Caribbean almost.

Yeah, the French house little moment. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, oh, this is going to be good. I'm moving around. I'm visualizing you like boogieing. Yeah, I can boogie. But was that in the, like, because the song is about moving on, right? Mm-hmm.

So where'd the island theme come from? The island theme. Well, I would say it's more French than Caribbean. I'm going to hold it to that part of the world. But I don't know. It to that part of the world. But I don't know. It was just like an interesting vibe. That sort of actually came from Jack,

the idea of that French piano kind of knocking in. Yeah. It felt so sort of joyous. Yeah. It's like important to signpost that joy. Yeah. So it was just an idea you had in the moment. That was part of building the song. Yeah, I think that was just like-

Did you have the words already? They came. We had, I had the, actually I had the first verse, which like was in another song in this really different context. And I had the, I thought you said that you would always be in love, which is very like Shangri-La's, you know, da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da. So you had that in mind. All those sort of rhythms.

Yeah, so I had like a lot of it sort of coming together and then Jack kind of introduced that piano part and then we're away. And is Jack like referencing, he knows where you're going with these references? Is he contributing references? We definitely, I would like play him, you know, I'd play him that Shangri-La stuff right away. Yeah. Yeah, he definitely... We don't sit around playing a lot of references, but we do... We'll take a lot of songs to the piano. So we'll take like, you know, a Crosby Sills, Nash song and just tear it apart.

Like which one? I think I enjoy those guys most separated out. I get the most out of them as separate people. I mean, we would play Our House and like, work out these little, you know, things that make it such a special pop song.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a sweet song. It's sweet. Is that Graham's? Him and Joni, but I think Crosby's a big part of it. Oh, yeah.

He'll tweet at you if you tweet at him. Oh, I can't. I can't be my hero. It's too stressful for me. My fear is that i'm gonna meet paul simon somewhere and just fall over good is paul simon how fucking good is paul simon and how underrated i don't think he's underrated i think he's done all right for himself i don't

think you gotta worry i don't think people i think people think of him as like not one of the cool guys but he is that's true the cool guys i think that's true and i wonder why that happens too like it's like, it's also like, why don't more people know about Peter Green? I've taken it upon myself for the last five years to champion Peter Green wherever I can. And Paul Simon gets a little trickier.

Yeah. It's easier to, I can, I can understand why people don't. Like I go like lately I've been championing his very first record a bit. Oh, okay. Me too.

Wait, furry, furry hood yeah okay can we just have a moment to talk about run that body down oh my god how good is run that body down yeah i mean it's crazy that really does it because i love baby paul simon he's sad i mean like duncan he sounds like a little baby kills me doesn't he sound so he sounds you think about that man who's gonna sing he's the child from my first marriage and you can't even you can barely picture him in that kid

but run that body down I'm like oh there he is you can see the kid that's gonna drive to Graceland how long you think that you can run that body down

how many nights you think that you can do what you've been doing oh shit okay good yeah I did How many nights do you think that you can do what you've been doing? Oh, shit. Okay, good. Yeah, I did. Like that record just blew. We sampled him on the album.

You did? We sampled. So there's this amazing Graceland documentary. He's like driving back and forth from like Montauk or something. And there's this tape in his car. Yeah. And it's Lady Smith Black Mambaza. Yeah.

And he actually can't find the source of the tape and so he has to go to Warner Brothers and be like find this tape this is like so far precious to them

you know it's like a blank tape and they have to find it but he says in the best poor voice he says what is this tape this is my favourite tape

and we put it on the album it's makes me so happy that he's on there and like Graceland was really, I listened to it and it's sort of like, I hadn't listened to it in a while. And it sort of like smacked me across the head in the way that like,

you know, my beautiful dark twisted fantasy did when I was like 12. Which one? The Kanye record. Oh yeah. With the pink cover, you know. Yeah.

It's sort of like a Kanye record, Graceland, and it's so fucking succinct, and it's just like, this is what it is. Yeah. It's just so kind of obvious. Production is pretty amazing. I mean, it's the best. And, yeah, and I just sort of listened to that,

and I was like, oh, a lot of these disciplines are what I need to apply to this record. Like, I need to just keep it simple, you know. Keep it simple, but keep it tight and sad. Tight and sad. Shit, man. Tight and sad. How much, like, okay, so you were touring forever

because the Royals came out when you were, like, what? 14, 13, 14? So it was actually 16 when it came out. 16, okay. So you toured, so you didn't really have much time in between these records? Is that what you're trying to tell me? Oh, that's where we started.

Sorry, that was the question we hit on literally half an hour ago before we talked about paul salmon very strong uh pull around there so i was touring for like almost two years after that came out i stopped touring you wanted to though you weren't being like i did want to i did but i do find it it takes a lot out of me touring and you go you go all over the world. Oh, we go everywhere. I think we're going to hit every continent. Okay. Maybe not Antarctica.

Yeah, and how do you handle that on the road? Do you just take care of yourself? I mean, you're not a party person, but I mean, you just... I'm not, not really. Do you have like a structure? Do you like just get on sleep? I don't sleep very well, so I find it quite difficult. Yeah, I don't think many musicians sleep well. Do you do buses? Do you do you like just i don't sleep very well so i find it general difficult yeah i don't think many do you do buses musicians do hotels we do buses uh the bus is quite a good

sleeping yeah tool we do buses in in america and then we do hotels a lot of other places but um yeah so so we did that record yeah then it was early 2015 yeah. I kind of wrote with people, tooled around, nothing really. I hadn't done anything. I didn't have another album's worth of stuff to write about. Did you sing on anyone else's records? Did you show up and do things with people? I did one thing. It was on my friends who were Disclosure, who were like an electronic act in the UK.

And I curated a soundtrack. For The Hunger Games. For The Hunger Games. For The Hunger Games. How does that come up? They're just sort of like, let's have this Lord girl do this. They were like, do you want to do the end credit song? And I was like, I want to do the whole album and you have to let me do what I want. And that may include getting an insane song from Grace Jones and having like teenagers

be like, what is this bizarre Grace Jones song? You did it. I did. And so they just allowed you to curate this. And were you a fan of the books? I was a real fan of the movies. I had seen that first movie and I remember being so gripped by how good it was and how simple it was for a blockbuster. Remember that first one?

It was all kind of handheld and Jane was just so fucking good. It was just her in the forest the whole time. She just crushed it. So I was like, I'm gonna do this. And they just let you do it? They let me do it. Literally, I just did it on a tour bus for five months and we had like, we got Simon

Le Bon on there doing like this awesome verse on my friend Charlie's song. It was fun. We just did all this weird shit. Simon Le Bon. Did you decide Simon Le Bon? I decided Simon Le Bon. And he signs off all of his emails with whoosh. He writes whoosh?

He writes whoosh, which I think is kind of very Simon Le Bon to like whoosh the email out into the atmosphere. So you really like, you know, you're sort of like obsessively feeding this, you know, personal rabbit hole full of music. Yes, it's very selfish. No, it's good. It's good because it gives you all these different points of reference. I think so.

I think so. So, okay, so you were working, in other words. It wasn't like you took, like, all this time off to, you know, kind of have a life or whatever. I was working, yeah. No, I haven't had life. I really, but work is like I don't feel like I need to relax all this time off to you know kind of have a life or whatever no i haven't had life i really but work is like i don't feel like i need to relax because work is yeah it's time to work

and it's like i'm i'm feeding my soul so so you know if it was like just like number crunching or something that would be terrible but yeah but once you perform once you get it all together once the song comes together i mean it seems like doing electronic music are you brian eno fan i'm kind of a brian eno fan i'm a i need to like i think i need to go there more yeah i'm like phil collins like that's my pop shit you don't like phil collins i don't know man you don't like phil collins fuck yeah shit man any but look i know the songs they played them a lot i don't like Phil Collins? Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. Shit, man. Eenie? Look, I know the songs. They played them a lot.

I don't seek them out. There's something about him personally that annoys me. Really? I don't even know what it is. Are you friends with him? No. Have you met him? No.

I mean, I'm a troll from New Zealand. Why would I have met Phil Collins? I don't know. You'll meet people. You can meet whoever you want. Randy Newman would play piano for you happily right now i can't handle it um my favorite pop males are the guys that sound like a combination of your boyfriend your dad that's phil he's your dad and he's your boyfriend okay i'm not gonna begrudge you it and i know that he's a great i wish you liked phil oh god we just talk about it.

I'd rather you sell me on Phil. Okay, give me the boyfriend dad thing. Oh, boy. Okay. What is it? Which Phil Collins song has inspired you the most? Oh, I mean, I think the disciplines of a lot of the real pop ones have inspired me very tangibly, but the one that I would play to you if we were like yeah dark outside yeah would be take me home okay it just journeys that uh he's like a he's singing from the perspective of a mental patient but it um you know it's so simple it's just the drums that

take take me home oh yeah of course i don't remember. Yeah, yeah. Take, take me home. It's just all these harmonies. Yeah, yeah. It's a six minute song. Okay. I have no far horizons. Yeah. I don't like to go outside. You got to listen to it in the rain sometimes.

See, you're helping me appreciate it. No, no. I can love it. What about something happens on the way to heaven? I'm late to the party with a lot of things because I don't know how to get in. Oh. And just hearing you do that. That's a great point. But it's pure pop.

I don't. It's sugar. Pure pop. Full sugar. Okay. All right. I can understand that. Yeah.

You know, it's really a personal problem I'm having with Phil. I can understand that. I know that he's a musical wizard. I know he's one of the magicians. I get it. I think when you're like a little drum kid, someone like Phil Collins is like Jesus because he taught all of us how to do it.

Yeah. So this record, I'm going to listen more intently now. I'm going to take your advice. Because when you talked about, because what you do vocally, which is what you do, right? is you know what you do right yeah you know you you have to have certain you know launching points and you know when you just captured that moment of what he did vocally it would make me appreciate that more oh do you see

because like so well though i but i don't even notice those things all the time like i know when when bowie changes pitch on heroes and Heroes, and I'm waiting for it. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Oh, shit. Of course. Right. So, you know,

and I can definitely appreciate him and all his nuances. Absolutely. But I just like, I'm much more interested in him as a person. So, you know, I've got to somehow get past my judgment of Phil as this annoying little guy.

Well, are you a Eurythmics person? No. No, I don't Eurythmics person? No. No, I don't mind. I like her. No, no, no. But do you like him? He's okay. He's annoying.

But I can take the Eurythmics record because of her. And I like him. Are you into the best Tom Petty song of all time, Don't Come Around Here, Don't Go On? Of course. Dave Stewart, right? Yes. I don't have a problem with Dave Stewart. And he can play guitar, too.

Do you have a problem with me calling that the best Tom Petty song of all time? A little bit. A little. A little me calling that the best Tom Petty song of all time a little bit a little what's your favorite Tom Petty well I actually like are you a Tom Petty person oh yeah very much

there's some songs off the second there's like that country song Mystery Man on the second record I think and I'm a big fan

of that very first record I love American Girl but I also love I love American Girl too there's so many tom petty songs yeah i mean i just got the they i just got the boxes we're very spoiled you oh oh shit there's two boxes oh my god i need the boxes you need the box do you do vinyl uh you know what not really i've had a few moments where i've put on a record and i've put it on at the wrong speed right why would you do vinyl

you don't even do instruments I don't it's a little past my I mean it's like I know it's old guy stuff it's not though but I just not a

not a vinyl nerd I want to be I would want to be so let's let's talk about sorry I really took you down a rabbit hole with the Phil

Dave Stewart Tom Petty no I like I like Eurythmics and there's like there's that song that she does with, I think it's on an Eurythmics album. It might be on a solo album.

I'm not sure. No, it's on the one she does with Elvis Costello. Oh, yeah, yeah. I like that. I like that. The one that I like that, like, and again, it's like, it's the same with Phil.

It's not subtle. I think that's why people find it hard to get an entry point but like all that stuff is like the reason I make pop music must be talking

to an angel oh yeah must be talking to an angel it's just like it's a little would I lie to you it's the best

it's the best yeah it is I get it yeah okay but the thing the funny thing about you though

is that your voice you know just by virtue of of uh your natural gift and magic is that it brings a depth to it somehow thank you i'm and i'm trying not to be undercutting like it like because i know that there's nothing you're going to tell me that like oh the reason that happens what do you mean no my voice yes you you maybe yeah what's what do you want to not um well how do you and like because i would i read a couple people's what how they described your voice it's hard to describe but it's very moving and i guess you know because of what we

talked about earlier that you you're not a choreographed person you're not a person that you know does anything but fully immerse yourself in the performance that you make yourself very emotionally open to having, it seems somewhat, though controlled, raw feeling in the voice. So that's my projection. Right. No, I think that's my projection. Right. No, that's, I think that's right. I think it's like striking a balance between total rawness and total, you know, control. Right, right. So, it's like where those two things meet.

Right. Being able to, like, capture it in this very controlled environment is what I find really exciting. Well, that's what makes you different and amazing is that uh that you can have that you know because like pure pop is great and you know you can dance to it and sometimes the words are cute and sometimes they'll make you laugh or cry but is it tight and sad tight and sad exactly but like how much of this was it like i know it's like you know i i read some of the press there's a breakup record and whatnot is it oh are you just are you just hitting that bell a little too hard that's a good way of putting it i think i hit a lot of bells a little too hard

um you know what i have this thing where i'm like, I realize this about my music. Like, I'm not trying to immortalize anyone. It's not about like carving anyone else's statue in marble. I'm only trying to crystallize my own experience. So if it's about the reaction of someone saying something which makes me feel something which makes me do something that's cool yeah but like yes like something can be a breakout record but i just the people fall away so fast when it comes to my work it's like and you'll notice i never really go to length to describe other people like it it's more just someone will be a catalyst or something they say it's reported yeah for a second it's not about and i think i mean that's i guess that's a paul simon thing too you know these characters appear yeah but it really is about him personally and the colors of yeah his

spectrum yeah and it's also you know it seems like a lot of good songs are cryptic enough or vague enough to to mean a lot to a lot of different things to as many people as possible. Everyone's going to have their own relationship with a pop song or with a lyric, especially if it's not that specific. Yeah, I think like dancing between like hyper specific and hyper like broad is like a cool balance. But like even putting your makeup on someone else's car yes that like that's a experiential but it means something but it could mean like you know i didn't automatically think it was a dude's car yeah i just thought that you know you your life was uh harried somehow and you were you're out doing something and you weren't driving

i'm never driving right it's metaphoric yeah it still never driving. I don't drive. It's metaphoric. Yeah. It still works, right? Yeah. You don't drive? I don't. And someone actually raised an interesting point, which is so many of my songs are coming from this perspective of the passenger seat. They were like, how's the music going to change when you start driving? Uh-huh.

I'm following the river down the highway through the cradle of the Civil War. Oh, yeah. How are you going to do that? I guess I'm going to do that. How are you going to take that Graceland drive? Yeah. How are you going to do that? I guess I'm going to do that. How are you going to take that Graceland Drive? How are you going to go to the Delta? I got to do it. Mississippi Delta, yeah.

But so, okay, so the heartache and the heartbreak was not some major crushing turning point in your life. I mean, it was, but it was like more what happened afterward that I found like really transcendent. I think joy is like so much more transcendent than pain i think it's really easy to make work out of pain everyone can make something really burnished and special out of pain but i think choosing joy is like quite difficult and quite noble it's not chic joy is not chic no it's misery is very chic you know

like i have a hard time with joy is it does it come easy to you you know what i think it does because i think like to be as insane as i am you have to like find something like that and just stick as a relief as a yeah i mean when i'm like you know like i can the stuff that can make me cry is like and like deeply move me is so infinitesimal and ridiculous that i have to like find an outlet i have to find joy in in the world also you know really so you're saying that you you you get saddened by trivial bullshit? Oh, I mean, I'm just like, you know, I don't know. I was leaving New Zealand last week and I drove past this sports field

and the sun was kind of out and some kids were training for playing soccer or something and i was just like i need to get a handle on this this is sad yeah you know why i don't know i'm just you know i've my life is like weird i think a lot of things are symbols for other things but like the simplicity of it or just the vulnerability of it or just like that was just what they were doing i mean like i know what you're talking about how weird how moments can be moving without really you know you really can't attach where those emotions are coming from yeah but like every moment is like so i just find like too much stuff moving so i think i have to like really make an effort to just find like simple joy in the same things. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

Right. You have a problem with joy, do you say? Yeah. Why do you think? Because it's hard. Like if you're prone to holding on to pain, whatever it is, there's a consistency to it. And I don't know that joy has a consistency.

No, no, no. There's no steady joy. Right. You know know and i think that pain if you're prone to it or hold on to it it's a control thing right yeah so so you know the joy thing yeah like you said it's the reason it's not chic is because there's a type of vulnerability to it that's uh you know very human yeah and and and i that it's sort of embarrassing to watch someone experience intense joy. It is.

Way more than pain. You're like, I'll just leave you to do this. And I think that's why people find what I do quite disconcerting. I mean, this VMAs thing,

like people just, I don't even know if you know about it, people got like so angry about me performing at the VMAs. Why? What did you do?

I know you were sick. I just danced. I just heard you were sick. I just danced. Oh. And I danced with full fucking joy. And people were like, some people were like, we get it and we love it. And some people were like, this is offensive that I have to watch this.

And I'm like, oh, it's because you, it's so private seeing someone experience such joy. That's true. Yeah. And I think that's a sad thing. Well, ultimately, if anything, we should be comfortable with around each other's joy. I'm uncomfortable with it. When someone else is having it, I get embarrassed for them a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

But you realize there's a vulnerability to it I think it's really like changing my life opening up to to the joy being very unafraid of intense joy publicly

and yeah and privately yeah but yeah but you gotta you can't do it all the time because then you know you wouldn't get anything done

I'll end up in the hospital if I have too much joy they'll go okay we'll just put this thing hospital if I have too much joy. They'll go, okay, we'll just put this thing on you. Yeah, medicate that joy. Take you away, yeah. Well, don't medicate your joy. Nice parting words.

Yes, thank you for talking to me. Thank you so much. I think we talked about a lot of stuff. Sorry for nerding out on that. On Phil Collins? On Phil Collins. No, you got mad at me and maybe you should,

oh, I forgot. Oh, what? What compelled you to cover that Paul Westerberg song, that beautiful replacement song? Oh my goodness. Talk about it. There's your unsung hero. There's my unsung hero.

You know, it's funny. Whose house was I at? Someone just played me a lot of music I'd never heard before, a lot of old music I'd never heard. And someone played me that song and I was just like, some songs you hear really infrequently and you feel this like, just, you feel like you were robbed. How did they get there before you? How did they express that sentiment before you? And that one, I was just like, this is, someone wrote this. Someone knew me in another life and wrote the song.

So I just think I had to cover it. And we just did it really fast. Like it was a quick thing. It didn't actually, yeah, it was kind of adjacent to the album. But God, I love that song forever. I haven't thought about that song in a long time. Swing and Party? Such a good one.

Did you talk to Paul Westerberg? Never. You've got to start meeting some people. I can't. I'm too, it's too much. What am I going to do when I meet Paul Simon? What do I say to him? Paul Simon?

What do I say to him? It's too much. I just shout his lyrics out. No, you just sort of go like, I really love you. Why don't you, you know what you can do is you can cover a fucking song, man. Oh, I did. We did. Jack and I sung Me and Julio at Outside Lands the other day.

We just got on stage and dicked around and sung Me and Julio. Why wouldn't you just throw a cover of, what was that? Run That Body Down. Run That Body Down. I should cover Run That Body Down. Why not? I should. I should.

The only thing that happens is you do this thing that you love the artist, and Paul Simon can put another stack of money on his stack of money. I don't think Paul Simon's going to make very much money from me singing Run That Body Down. I wonder about that. Oh, goodness. Yeah. I mean, who have you met that's been like your big number one idol? There's been a couple.

Randy Newman was pretty big for me. Yeah. Keith Richards I interviewed. And I just stumbled all over myself. Cool. You know, those guys. And then there are other people whose work I really like. But Keith Richards was sort of a big deal. And I didn't you know i didn't handle it that well it's better if i have

a little distance it's better if i if i if i know somebody's work but i don't love it right right right you know because then i can crash it well they can have a good conversation about it without going like what about that time you were oh yeah that was so good oh that'll be me me and Phil shouting at Phil well maybe you'll be on the same show and it can be sort of

a respectful kind of thing maybe yeah alright just don't like we don't need to end again but we're gonna end again oh shit sorry

no no it's the second ending oh good there's two endings to this thanks for talking thank you so much okay There's two endings to this. Thanks for talking. Thank you so much. Okay. All right, so that was enjoyable.

Since you guys are enjoying some dirty guitar, I pulled out one of the dirty Gibsons, and I'm going to plug it into the dirty old man and just let it rip a little but you know just just raw gut shit no noodling Thank you. Boomer lives! episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting

and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m.

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