WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 857 - Willem Dafoe

Episode Date: October 22, 2017

Actor Willem Dafoe might have had a hard time standing out while he was growing up as the seventh of eight kids. But he found a way to express himself performing in community plays, which led to the pursuit of stage acting and an embrace of the avant-garde performance world. Willem talks to Marc about his early stage work as well as his many notable films like Platoon, To Live and Die in L.A., Auto Focus, and his latest movie The Florida Project. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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doing our only LA book talk and signing this Sunday, October 29th at 7 p.m. That's it. One night only at the Ann and Jerry Moss Theater at the Herb Alpert Educational Village in Santa Monica. And if you haven't seen me and Brendan do our thing, you will enjoy it. We'll talk about waiting for the punch, but we also talk about behind the scenes stuff from the podcast, some secrets that you don't know about. We take questions from the audience and we'll sign your stuff. Bring your copy of waiting for the punch if you already have one, or you can get one with your ticket. Go to livetalksla.org to get tickets or go to the tour page of wtfpod.com. That's Sunday, page of wtfpod.com that's sunday october 29th live talks la.org or wtfpod.com also another thing fans friends country people uh or global people everybody international friends uh brian r jones

has a new batch of cat mugs if you want to get a cat mug just like the ones i give to my guests go to brian r jones.com to get yours they go on sale today at noon eastern nine pacific and they always go very fast so do that i'll tweet that shit too right i'm a little embarrassed willem defoe is here today willem defoe i talked you know it's hard when you talk to a guy about uh acting and about a long career in acting and uh but uh i i think we did all right me and willem and you know he brought up a movie if uh called light sleeper which is a uh a schrader film a paul schrader film who i'm a bit obsessed with sometimes paul Schrader, sort of a dark mind, dark masculine mind,

that auto-focused man. He wrote Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, but we were talking about some other movie called Light Sleeper that I had not seen, and by some weird freak coincidence, this has happened a couple of times. Like, I'm on a plane. I usually fly American, and i usually fly business because

i don't have children i don't have a wife i have some money can i spend it please thanks i'm given to charity you don't mind if i fly business do you so yeah so in their classic collection or for whatever reason i don't know a light sleeper is. I mean, this is a Paul Schrader film made in like 1992. And I talked to him about it. And I'd never seen it before. And I watched it. And I just forget. I just forget that there was a tone to certain films.

There's a tone to films that take their time. Some things are dated. But people who are auteurs, who have a very specific point of view for their films and angle, and they're meticulous about what the script points are and what the story points are and what it's about, sometimes it's not as satisfying as a movie that is fundamentally manipulative. And I forget that there's a certain patience that you need to afford. I don't know if I'd call it an art film,

but an older independent film or any independent film that maybe you shouldn't judge too quickly. Also, it's a 1992 film, so the fashions and the tone of what's happening are a little dated. But I was surprised at who's in the damn movie. Willem Dafoe plays this guy John Latour who's a drug dealer Susan Sarandon is his main you know supplier Dana Delaney plays this

woman who was fucked up on drugs and used to go out with the with uh Willem's character but she got clean and then he sort of is starting to run into her again. David Clennon, great character actor as this other drug dealer. Mary Beth Hurd plays a psychic reader. Victor Garber, you know, the guy who designed the Titanic, plays this German aristocrat, like wealthy drug dealer, weird sex guy. Sam Rockwell is in it for like two minutes. Jane Addams, a child, is in it as Dana Delaney's sister. And David Spade plays, his character's called Theological Cokehead.

This guy's just jacked on coke and rambling on about God and metaphysics. It was just sort of odd to see it after. And I also watched the Meyerowitz stories, and I thought that Dustin Hoffman was great, and Ben Stiller and Adam Sandler. I'm just doing movie reviews, I guess. We're tremendous. You know, both tormented, troubled Jewish men with difficult fathers, I'm assuming, were able to really dig deep and make that fucking film, Noah Bombeck. It's his best movie, no doubt.

It's on Netflix. And if you want to see Dustin Hoffman. And he makes everybody run. Noah makesbeck. It's his best movie, no doubt. It's on Netflix. And if you want to see Dustin Hoffman. And he makes everybody run. Noah makes everybody run. And it's interesting because I like when that happens. Because in The Graduate, Dustin Hoffman is a cross-country runner for a college. So, you know, there's a lot of him running in The Graduate. And he's got a very specific run and I and I can only assume that Noah was like I wonder if he still got that run in him and uh

and he did it the same in like King of Comedy where the I don't know Jerry Lewis must have been in his late 50s or 60s when Scorsese had him in that movie and he does a long scene where he's running from a fan and it's just this crazy Jerry Lewis run. Sometimes running is funny and tragic. Just the activity of it. So I think I feel like I just avoided telling you my shameful story. Okay. All right.

I'll tell you about my shame because maybe it will help others. But wait, before I do that, let's share a couple of emails of success stories. new book out, I thought I would share a moment that had a big impact on me. I am in my mid-40s, was struggling with a marriage that was falling apart, feelings of guilt about my issues as a parent, looking to infidelity to provide a quick fix and make me feel better, but only feeling worse and finally secretly going to a therapist, then struggling to really understand what was happening. My wife started joining me in therapy in hopes that if we could get to the root of my problems, we could get to the root of our problems. But I was not digging in, not trying to really understand why I was the way I was. Then Nikki flipped my world upside down.

Quote, maybe your mom doesn't love you, unquote. And the next 10 minutes of the interview on the WTF podcast, Nikki opened my eyes to what it meant to be truly honest with yourself, to be okay thinking those things about your parents who are supposed to love you and confront them head on. And now those things affect everything and everyone around you. I had heard Mark talk about parents with others, but Nikki was so direct, so brave. It was the first time in my life my walls came down. I was honest with myself. I was honest with my wife and kids.

I accepted my parents for who they are and changed my approach to dealing with them. My marriage is so much better now. We talk about difficult things. We listen to each other and we are better parents and fixing some of the mistakes we made along the way. This wouldn't have happened if I didn't fundamentally change what I was doing in that moment. Listening to Nikki was the jolt of reality I needed.

Like she was talking directly to me. I've probably listened to that part of the interview 10 times since the first time, usually when I'm having doubts about myself or feeling guilty after talking with my parents. It gives me the confidence to be true to myself, to trust my feelings. I wanted to thank you and let you know

there is a special place in my heart for both of you. Sincerest thanks, Todd. Hey, man. Glad to help out, and I will tell Nikki. I will give this to Nikki. I will show Nikki. Here we go. Subject line.

Hi, Doctor of Cocaine Studies, Marin. Last time I sent you an email, I was around 10 days sober. It's been about 90 days now without pulling up a bottle and having a chair, and damn it, I feel great. I went from living living with my parents barely maintaining any semblance of life to having my own bottom floor in an estate house going back to school and working wtf please talking sobriety with your guests it always helps to know that everyone goes through shit and either maintains burns out or chooses sobriety. Talking matters, Simon. All right, so there you go.

Those are happy stories. So, okay, I'll tell you. There were a few guys working on the house, all right? There were a few guys working on the house, and I had to split. So I got a guy who works for me occasionally, Frank. He was going to come over and hang out while the dudes finished up the hammering and so on and the dude stuff outside. Yeah, I could do it.

Of course, I could do it. But I didn't have time. They're pros. They're pros doing some repair work on the home. So what happens is they're out there working and Frank comes over. Now, I look the way I do. Frank looks the way he does Frank's got a mustache as well and he's wearing shorts he's got glasses and

you know I got my mustache and I got glasses and I'm not wearing shorts but I got my boots on and you know and I'm like I don't know when they're gonna be here till and I already talked to him you know to see you know to tell him they were doing a good job and find out what they were doing and and then Frank goes all right I'll just go ask him so he goes out and asks him and then we're both sort of standing outside and then i take off and i tell frank uh you know i'll talk to you later and then uh you know the uh i say say goodbye the guy's working there and uh yeah i don't know if you know where this is going but uh i wasn't happy about it but you know i drove away thinking like man those guys all those guys those guys out front they

they think i'm gay they think me and frank live in that house together and we're lovers and we're just gay as as gay can be and i don't know why it affected me but my next thought and this was there was a couple of things that happened in my brain and i don't know what it indicates about me um but like i thought well if they think i'm gay they're gonna fuck my house up somehow okay so then then i'm in this zone of like well this is probably how gay people feel a lot in terms of being judged now i don't know if these guys thought anything i'm making all this up in my head i don't i think i'm not i don't believe i'm homophobic unless it's me who's gay and i'm not gay but i was homophobic because i was scared of people thinking I was gay and what

they would do and I imagine that is some sort of twisted empathy but the sad part is I sort of had to struggle with you know it was it wasn't going to happen but like with you know driving back and somehow declaring to these three guys who are working on my house who might not be thinking anything that I wasn't gay for some reason, just so they wouldn't fuck up my house and they would think that maybe... See, that's the tricky part. That's the shameful part.

I did not drive back to my house and stand out in front where the guys were working going, hey, you know, I have a girlfriend, all right? So it's not what you're thinking. I just sort of sat with the reality. It's like, yeah, I'm okay being gay. I'm okay if me and Frank are gay to those guys. I accepted it.

I came out to myself in that moment in terms of what those other people were thinking. I went through a lot. I went through a lot in that few minutes driving away from the work being done on my house. All right, so Willem Dafoe is in this beautiful new movie called The Florida Project.

It's now playing. There's a lot of Oscar buzz for his performance. I saw it and I thought it was spectacular. The director, Sean Baker, did another film that I did not see. I think it was called Tangerine. I was sort of poo-pooed it because i was like it was too much buzz about it was shot on an iphone and i was like i'm not buying in everyone said it was good people i respected said it was good but i'm a i'm a dick so i gotta see that now because this was sort of

a pretty astounding movie uh defoe plays a a hotel manager and this is a not even an extended stay hotel just a shitty hotel near the Orlando theme parks and people are living there you know low-income poor people are are living at this shitty hotel and there's a sort of a whole little community and ecosystem to it. It didn't it felt like it was weird because the tone of it you know this guy baker shoots very sort of from the hip and you know handheld and uh it's gritty but it had this tone because there's a lot of focus on the kids in this film and i'm like well now we've got our own third world right here in this country of uh of street children and of people that live in a compromised situation. Obviously, they've always been here,

but this really shines into the tragedy of having to parent and exist in these conditions, but also this sort of relentless joy and sort of detachment that children have despite the circumstances. There's a tremendous balance in the film. Me and Willem talk about that among other things. This is me and Willem.

It's a night for the whole family. Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March

9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com You were the last of eight? I have a younger sister, seventh of eight. So you're the seventh of eight? Yeah, seventh son. Five sisters, two brothers, no. Really?

Yeah. Oh, my God. Do you know them all? Do I know them all? You mean like well? I know their names. I know their names. But no, I guess it's weird. my parents used to call me call anyway they were like it was like barbara nancy bd dot injector

they do the whole run they had to i guess and everybody's ears perked up and they had to kind into it which one they really were wanting. My mother did that with animals. There were several dogs and a couple cats. So you know the thing. It's a little insulting, though, with the animals. I mean, you should know the difference. It's not insulting for people?

You should know the basic difference between a pet and a child. I don't know that difference. I haven't had enough pets. No. So, oh, my God. So, like, you really probably didn't really know your older siblings that well, right? I didn't. But they raised me.

They did? Yeah. I mean, I remember I was, some of my early memories are, you know, my sister, my oldest, eldest sister going off to college. I was probably, I was probably six. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. That's sad, man. It must be. I was probably six. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah.

That's sad, man. It must be. No, but also. You saw them all go. That's okay. Because they also, a lot of them, for undergrad anyway, went to the University of Wisconsin, and that was in the 1960s. So when I became a teenager, I used to hitchhike down there and i had some of my best experience most formative experiences on that university of wisconsin madison campus as a

adolescent oh yeah hanging out with my you know sure uh couch surfing uh with your brothers and sisters yeah because they all went there? Seven out of eight, yeah. I'm the only one that didn't, actually. And that's in Madison with Scott Hedrick? And that was a lively campus, you know, up with Berkeley and some other places. There was a lot of activity. And you were like 16, 17? Yeah, you know.

No, no. I first started going there when I was like, you know, 14, 15. Oh, wow. Because it was only 100 miles away and it's a great town yeah it's a hip town yeah and it was you know and it was interesting too because you know kind of growing up in Wisconsin with kind of good well-educated Eisenhower era you know republican parents right and then through then seeing my brothers and sisters get radicalized through their going out in the world. And I think that had a big effect on me.

Well, I mean, I've talked to a lot of people about that. It's necessary, I mean, if you don't have older siblings to guide you one way or the other into the light of what is interesting and cool uh you might be hobbled yeah or or you may see there's another world out there a little too late that right right you missed it but then again sometimes you see people that grow up in a little town and they can develop in a very full way you know sure because sure yeah they'll develop but like at that time right you know you're i mean everything's blowing up the whole social fabric is coming on good music art you know the power of uh of creativity yep so you were just you were able to sort of like go see that yeah as a 15 year old it's true and what do you remember most about what

was inspiring well just a kind a kind of questioning and protest. And also I remember, this is a kind of funny connection, but I think one of the things that made me start, I started making, you know, working with a small avant-garde theater company. That was really what, you know, started me as an actor and continued for many years started in wisconsin but then more notably in uh in in uh new york and with the wooster group right but all but like that stuff in wisconsin was it like uh that was well it was it was it was

avant-garde in the respect that we were doing different forms. It was still, we were basically working with a playwright, and we were still working with, you know, the literature of making plays, but they were, the subject matter was radical, and the stagings were radical, and we were a, you know, collective of people that ran a little factory space and did everything ourselves so that was a new form so so what town up milwaukee so that briefly briefly that was for like a couple years but it was important now your parents like what'd your old man do i he was a surgeon oh my dad

was a surgeon yeah so never home never home and my mother worked with him and she was a nurse Never home. And my mother worked with him, and she was a nurse. And he had a clinic, and he'd do the lab work, because they were in the center of a kind of agricultural community. It was a town of 50,000. That was kind of the hub. So people would come from far away to have their visits with him. What type of surgeon?

He was a gastrointestinal surgeon. Oh, okay. would come from far away to have their visits with him. What type of surgeon? He was a gastrointestinal surgeon. Oh, okay. Very well trained, Harvard Medical School, Mayo Clinic, you know. But he was a country boy, so he really wanted to practice in Wisconsin. So these people would come from far away. He'd get called out for surgery, and my mother would be working the desk sometimes, having to calm these people down because they'd travel from far away, and they didn't want to leave, so they'd have to wait when he was called out on emergency surgery.

And I'd be there sometimes doing, well, I worked as a janitor there, but also I used to do schoolwork there sometimes. And I'd hear these people cuss out my mother and she'd take abuse all day and then my father was coming would come in like he was jesus christ you know and they were like oh doctor and they'd give my mother a dirty look and then they'd have their visit and everything was nice again and i always felt bad for my mother because she really took the hit that took a huge bullet for this guy to play the hero. Sure.

And that was very much the era where doctors were the word. Bigger than life, yeah. And he was a good guy. He wasn't a jerk. And I think he was very moral and probably a good doctor, too. Oh, yeah? But still, to see that growing up really blew my mind. Yeah, yeah.

The reverence and the sort of dismissal of your mom. Yeah, and, you know, kind of, yeah. Yeah. The service, the sexism. There's lots of stuff in that. Oh, yeah. But you got along with him and her? Yeah, both.

Probably better him than her because it was one of those stories that we were probably too much alike. So she would bust my balls a little bit. Where he was probably more distant. It was more symbolic relationship. But he was very, he was actually, he was disciplinarian and rigid. But we respected each other.

So there was a distance. But there's something. I loved both of them and had no problems. That's great. And are you the only? I'd fight with her a lot, though. Yeah, well, you've got to fight with one of them. Yeah, because she tried to be a,

I think she tried to be a super mom before those things were happening. She was a working woman. Sometimes she was going to school even. And she was, and she had all these kids. these kids but you know I just want to say man forget it yeah give up on the mother thing you know do one thing or the other because you're spreading yourself too thin uh-huh and just face it so don't pretend like you're everywhere at the same time all right you know let us go

oh I see so a lot of fights were like you're not around oh well it was like it was like you know you'd go someplace and i'd say i'll take i'll get a ride home with someone and in order to be sweet and to try to be a good mother she'd say no i'll pick you up yeah and then she'd forget oh and i'd say then i'd walk home and she'd say i'd say where were you and she'd say oh oh man right oh man and then next time it would happen i'd say, then I'd walk home and she'd say, I'd say, where were you? And she'd say, oh, oh, man. Right. Oh, man. And then next time it would happen, I'd say, hey, it's okay.

I'll take a ride. No, no, I'll pick you up. And it happened again. Yeah. That was what it, you unloaded. Abandoned munitions. Perfect for an actor, right? Yeah.

Is it? I guess it is. I don't know. I don't know. Boy, we're up in close press and personal uh i must have woke up on the uh on the open side of the bed on the confessional side of the bed well were you the only one that went into like a creative pursuit no they're all they're all like in i mean strictly an artist um i i would no well

they're all professional people but they're all more talented than i am no no they are you know when we get together they all sing better they all dance better they all act better but i've got a tenacity they don't have you stuck it we stuck with it you made the life out of it something like that they. They're hobbyists. I'm kind of joking, but it's really funny that, no, I mean, I guess I tip my hand that way because I don't want to make it sound like I come from this family of striving professional people and I'm the artist. Right. It's not true.

They were all, and they are all creative people. and I'm the artist. Right. It's not true. They were all, and they are all creative people. My brother, the surgeon, you know, plays music.

My brother, the lawyer, is a very clever storyteller. Yeah. One of my sisters, the nurse, she draws beautifully and writes beautifully. You know, it's like that. No, I do. I do know what you mean.

It's just that they were smart enough not to make it a living. Maybe. Maybe, yeah. You know, it's like that. No, I do. I do know what you mean. It's just that they were smart enough not to make it a living. Maybe. Maybe. But I was willing to roll the dice. And I made, what did I get? Lucky seven. Seven, you got it! God damn. So, alright. Okay, so this is fascinating to me.

So, you know, when you started acting in high school? Even before that, there was a community theater in my, there was a university called Lawrence University where I was, and it was a private, good school. Yeah. And they had a very good drama department, a very good physical space. Yeah. And in the summertime, some community people got together, because it was a place of of means because there were these paper mill factories and paper mills and there was some yeah there was some wealth there some money around yeah

and they made a um uh summer theater and they'd uh hire you know a director from new york to come for the season and direct you know and, plays. And you were how old? The first one I did probably was I was probably 11. So you were basically trained as a kid by just being in the play. Yeah. You know, it changes. Yeah. And school plays and, you know, like a lot of kids when I was little, I used to write plays.

You did? Yeah. Yeah? They were always historic things. Oh, really? write plays you did yeah yeah there were always historic things oh really titles like cortez or or the alaska gold rush they were very short i always wanted to do the action stuff and but ever quite beef up the dialogue you know because i wasn't really interested in the psychology i was interested in the uh the doing yeah sure being the doing not the showing

yeah yeah which came a cropper later yeah but do you didn't have you done a lot of writing in your life or not really no not really i mean no no not really so after so after the experimental theater in milwaukee like you know after doing like you know i would imagine that once you finish high school you kind of committed to it. Not really. What happened is I left high school early. Yeah. I was kind of in between things, didn't know quite what to do. We even considered joining the army, as weird as that sounds.

And this is in the mid-60s or late 60s? No, no, no. I'm not 80, guys. This is 72. Okay. I'll say. 73. 73. You know, I just knew there was another world out there, and I wanted to find it, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So I started taking classes at university. Where? In Madison? No, in Milwaukee. Okay. Because I had a brother-in-law or a future brother-in-law to be that was there. And I stayed at his place and started taking courses and being in plays. And

then these people from this theater, Theater X, saw me in that and said, forget school, come work with us. And I did for a commune. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Then I did that for a little while. We got picked up by a European producer, so it was exciting because I was like 18 years old and traveling in Europe with these shows and things. And I was seeing all these shows from around the world,

particularly at a place called The Mickery in Amsterdam, which was very well funded with a real visionary producer who would go all around the world and select things and just bring them to his theater. Like what type of stuff? Oh, everything from

spectacle to, you know, African dance to opera. Yeah, yeah. It was a flexible space, a modest space. You know, his taste was more toward the avant-garde, not traditional theater. But you never knew with this guy. And you're just taking it in.

I'm just taking it in. Yeah. And turned on seeing really kind of great performers and really interesting people. And I think that's when you're at that age, you want to be with inspiring people, cool people, people that are kind of supporting this new education you're having. Sure.

So, you know, I go from middle middle class secure guy from a big family with you know kind of a track laid ahead of me that i should be yeah follow the tradition yeah and then i enjoy probably because somewhere i have that security in my head you know falling about two social classes and living in a poor neighborhood and knowing people with drug problems and criminal records and poverty. And I always think of the Bob Dylan line, a little boy lost, he takes himself so seriously, brags of his misery, loves to live dangerously. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that was me.

You know, it's you want to get dirty. Sure, of course. You want to get dirty. I can relate to that. Because dirty feels real. Yeah, I can relate to that. That's absolutely right. You didn't come upon it authentically,

but you could visit it. You were reaching. You knew there was something there. And you wanted to know the other narrative because you were up to here with the there was something there and you wanted to know the other narrative because you were up to here with the narrative that was fed to you yeah by all the yeah you know the culture that you were living sure and you could see where that was going what it expected yes yeah yes so that's where we are and then i i just felt i loved the people at theater x but if i I had an ambition.

And I really then moved to New York, I think, to be a traditional theater actor also. I thought, you know, this acting thing, I like it. Yeah. And if I'm going to do something, I better, you know, get serious. Get serious. Yeah. And go to Mecca. Yeah.

But at the same time, I was reading about Bob Wilson. I was reading about Richard Foreman. I was reading about... Oh, Foreman. I forgot about those plays. I worked with him. Oh, my God. He used to do a play like every month.

Oh, he's a great artist. A lot of things going on. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. He is pure theater today. Yeah, yeah. So is Bob Wilson in a very different way.

Bob Wilson with the ladders and the sparse and the minimalism and the operas. He does lots of things. Yes. No, I like him. I've worked with both of them.

I didn't mean to trivialize it. No, good. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. I just remember ladders. I've always seen it in a few productions.

He's got a language. Okay. Seriously, I like him. And he uses that language. Yeah, I get it. And that's part of the pleasure. Okay. Seriously, I like him. And he uses that language. Yeah, I get it. And that's part of the pleasure. Yeah. I think I saw recently, he did an opera, didn't he, at Lincoln Center?

I think in the last year. He does many things. I worked with him recently. I did two shows, Life and Death of Marina Abramovich, which was about Marina Abramovich. She was in it. And also Anthony Haggerty, now Anoni, did the music. It was a beautiful show. And another show, just a two-hander with Mikhail Baryshnikov and myself, called The Old Woman, based on a Russian writer's book.

And you did that recently? Yeah, recently. That's great. We even did it at Royce Hall, which wasn't the perfect venue for it, but we were happy to bring it to LA. We toured a lot, but very little in America, which always frustrates me because there's not the money or really the interest, I think. No, it is, avant-garde stuff or stuff that's provocative and hard to understand seems to

do better elsewhere. Well, as far as theater, yes. Yeah, yeah. So what are we talking, talking like 73 74 you go to new york we're talking uh no we're talking i do my little stint in university in 73 74 yeah then i'm with theater x till i try to move to new york theater x calls me back to the the Midwest and then I go to Europe with them. And then- With one production? No, several.

77, I'm in New York for good. And I'm intending to be a traditional theater actor. Yeah. But I'm looking around and I keep on finding myself going downtown. And I keep on finding myself, you know, seeking out those people I'm reading about. 77, so it's all still there. It's all still there.

It's kind of on the wane a little bit. And also other things like punk has happened. It's starting to happen, but it's still going on. I mean, you know. You can still see the Ramones at CBGB's. In 77, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can see television. You might go to a party and, you know.

Warhol's still around. David Byrne may get up and do something. So there was a lot going on. And that felt like what was happening rather than going around and getting a waiter job and and you know auditioning for broadway yeah yeah yeah you know that was all that was that was kind of a throwback for me that's what when i the only thing i could imagine until i knew the other world so then i get introduced to that world and i'm a square kid from wisconsin but you have a little you have a little uh uh avant-garde bonafides from sure sure sure

sure but that that not the miracle won't get you on the subway you know um so i'm there and then i run into i i basically i'm i just find myself being attracted to downtown and yeah i run i see the work of the wooster group and i basically um say i want to work with you guys how many are there who's in that how do you like i thought you i thought you were uh one of the guys who started it yeah well it it was born out of another group yeah which is called the performance group and who was the who that was richard scheckner and then people that worked with him, that was started in like 67. Old school. Old school.

No, but no, old school avant-garde. Right, right. Notary, confronting the audience, kind of a little bit more in the living theater tradition. Like Julian Beck? A little bit, yeah. I mean, it's not the same thing. I shouldn't say that. But just for your audience, maybe that broads. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's not the same thing. I shouldn't say that. But just for your audience, maybe that broads.

Right. Okay. It's not regular plays. Right. It's in the world of the avant-garde. Yeah. And it's political. Yeah.

Okay. So I start with Richard. Yeah. And then there's a group within the group that becomes the Wooster Group. The mutiny. a group within the group that becomes the Wooster Group. The mutiny. And that's led by Elizabeth LeCompte and the principal. Other person is Spalding Gray, also Ron Votter, Libby Howes, Jim Kleberg.

It's a group of people. And they start to make work as a sidebar to Richard. And soon, all the energy, all the resources, and all the interest kind of shifted to them. And Richard was all love. Also, I fell in love with Liz LeCompte, the director.

Uh-huh. So, my interest, resources, and everything shifted to her. So, like the dirty

turncoat rat I am, Yeah. I, I started hanging out with them. Yeah. And then Spalding invited me to be in the next piece. And then I started working with them in a run that lasted 27 years. What was that piece? That piece was probably the first one I did was Nay at School, but the first substantial one where

I was really a principal performer and maker was Point Judith. What was a signature? Because I've seen Spalding Gray several times before he died, and I've seen you work. I don't think I i've seen you on stage i feel like i've been to the worcester group once but what was what was the you know uh what was emblematic of the of the worcester group's work well you know people use a kind of a misnomer they talk a lot about deconstruction because sometimes we would use a text, like a classic American play, or some text, and we would use it as a thing, play with it, to kind of deal with it in our own terms. Improvise with it? No, sometimes we'd change things.

Sometimes we'd cut things. There was that. It was also a very physical approach. It was a very architectural approach because the first thing the director started out with, Liz, was always the space. She thought very spatially, very visually, very architecturally.

And then she would bring in a text or someone would bring in a text, and we'd play with it. We'd find a way to put it on its feet, and sometimes we'd cut it radically, sometimes we'd change it, sometimes we'd lay something over it. And then also another thing that I think people knew that we were doing is we were incorporating a lot of sound and video stuff

right and kind of non you know traditional we weren't hiding it right I mean one easy example comes to mind in one show we had a 93 year old woman you know in the show yeah she couldn't make it all the time so we put her on tape and we'd wheel out a tv and we'd play the scene with her on tape yeah i mean that's the crudest thing possible but we were using this technology in a practical way yeah and then with time it became more sophisticated and aestheticized and then even further uh developed now because they continue to work they do a lot with ghosting and playing with a mix of tracks outside that are guiding them and they're performing riffing off the track that's either in their ears or they have a visual reference for it.

Oh, that's trippy. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a very dense performance style. Yeah. It was beautiful work. I haven't seen it lately because I haven't been around. But you worked with them for like 26 years.

Yeah. On and off. And I think I remember when i was is it possible did they get a new space in the late 80s or no we well we had this small space right called the performing garage yeah that still exists yeah but i think as the technology grew the playing space got smaller and smaller and smaller yeah and the other thing, the other thing that I forgot to mention. It was a real company. Yeah.

The people were working there every day. Yeah. And that gave us the ability to show things in progress. And it also gave us the ability to bring back old shows and put them next to new shows. Uh-huh. So it was a real, it was about a whole fabric of work. It wasn't just knocking off doing shows. Right. It was about a whole fabric of work. It wasn't just knocking off doing shows. Right.

It was about a whole body of work. And they kind of had conversations with each other. Right. And that was beautiful for anyone that was really followed the company for a long time. It was its own world. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we had a space called the Performing Garage.

Yeah. And it got kind of small, and economically it became very difficult because we wanted to keep our ticket prices reasonable. We made our bread and butter through international touring, but even now I think it's a struggle, and through corporate, you know, support. But it was a struggle.

But there's a new space now, it's not just a garage. No, they have the garage but they do perform at Baryshnikov's space. They have, they have. And they have also performed at St. Anne's. Oh, they do a residency like? Yeah, a little bit. I stopped working with them

like in 2003 which is quite a long time ago but they really formed me right and you did a lot of that international touring with productions with the worcester group oh yeah and we were we were probably sometimes we were three four months out with a show that you put together or built in New York and you take it out? Yeah. And then it got to the point where Europeans would commission work. Oh, yeah. And we'd make a piece and then we'd owe them dates. And it was a good arrangement because that would keep us going and would also give us

deadlines. What kind of entities would commission pieces? Theaters? Theaters. Theaters. You know, public funds. Because particularly in places like Germany, Belgium, some Scandinavian countries, also in Asia, there's either theater festivals or there's theaters that get a lot of public money just to bring stuff from outside as a pleasure because they believe in culture.

Right. They believe culture is like education. That's what turned you on from that guy you saw in Milwaukee who brought that stuff there. Yeah, yeah. Like world theater, world things, things from outside. Yep. It's a beautiful thing.

Well, when did you start doing the movies? 79, I think. I mean, I had kind of a false start that through a series of real complicated things, I was like a glorified extra in Heaven's Gate. Yeah. So I was on that movie for about three months. Where did that shoot up in the Midwest and where? Mostly around Kalispell,ana uh-huh um also in idaho and some other places um but the main first thing was

happened to be katherine bigelow's first film she co-directed it with uh another guy uh with a guy named monty montgomery that was a little film called The Loveless. With Robert Gordon. You know it. The rockabilly guy. You know it. I've got his records in the house. Okay.

Yeah, with Robert. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a motorcycle movie. Uh-huh. Very stylized. Was it sort of campy? Was it sort of tongue-in-cheek, or was it she's playing it straight?

Pretty straight. Oh, yeah. Pretty straight. Oh, yeah. Pretty straight. You know, it was more Kenneth Anger than Wild One. Right. Got it. It wasn't melodrama. You go back to Wild One, everyone remembers it being pretty cool.

But it's pretty funny. It's silly. Yeah, sure. Kenneth Anger, if you looked at him, you know, Scorpio Rising. It's probably not funny. No, still not funny. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it's, but the approach is very much about the surface of things

and what we see. So it's very stylized. It's very, you know, I remember it ran for a long time as a midnight movie in London and its audience was really into the kind of fetishism of the leather and these guys hanging out. Yeah.

Was it a period piece? It was. Wow. So that was your first full starring role? Yeah. Yeah. And I thought, this is fun. You know?

Yeah. You go someplace with a bunch of strangers, you become close really fast, you figure this thing out, you have to deal with where you are, you've got a basic idea, and that changes. You make it, as you're making it, you're changed. Yeah. And you do that. And then you have evidence. And you've made everything. Yeah. You've made something. Yeah. And then that informs the next thing.

And is that what informed like... One step closer to the grave. Yeah. That's the next thing. With the flourish. That's the ultimate next thing. But is that what got you... Hooked?

Well, not hooked, but I mean like when... Because like Streets of Fire is another kind of leather adventure in a way. It is. And the funny thing is because... I had Walter Hill in here. Ah, Walter's very cool. That was a great... That movie was so much fun and he's great.

I loved him. And that was a very special movie for so much fun and he's he's great i loved him and that was a very special movie for me walter hill was friendly with katherine yeah i think katherine showed him a little piece of loveless yeah and he got the idea to cast me in uh streets of fire which was my first studio film yeah and uh And yeah, so that was, and then really out of that, then I started saying more, I got a manager. A woman called me up. I was in the phone book still then. Yeah, in New York.

In New York. And she called me up after seeing The Loveless at a film festival. And she said, do you want to do some more of this? I think I can help you. So a combination between her, her name was Phyllis Carlyle, and Catherine showing Walter Hill

this little piece from The Loveless, that was like the beginning of my journey. Professional. Yeah, professional film acting career. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, I mean, I'm trying to remember the first time I saw you.

I guess it might have been Platoon, but I remember being extremely excited about, because Friedkin hadn't made a movie in a while when To Live and Die in L.A. came out. Right.

And it was like, me and my friend were kind of film heads. We're like, Friedkin's doing a movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Willem Dafoe's in it. And like,

we went through. To Live and Die in L.A. happened before Platoon. Oh, so that was it then? Yeah. That was the first one. Yeah. That I can't, like I was in high school and we were thrilled about it. Oh, cool.

And we're really thinking about it, man. You know what I mean? That's fair. It's a good movie. It's a good movie to think about. I watched it again recently and it holds up. And I talked to Friedkin in here. That was.

He's great. That was a hell of a three hour thing i bet it was great yeah but uh but like that that movie was challenging i i think in some ways because it did you know it had a lot of provocative stuff about morality and about you know it's funny because one thing that i remember and maybe yeah this may or may not be important but it was sort of a critical failure initially and one of the things that was fairly consistent in the criticism and i read criticism in those days sure um was this movie is basically misconceived because there's nobody to relate to because everybody is just awful morally. Who do we?

The implication was if you don't have a good guy to root for, you can't tell the story. Yeah, well, because it's a movie. Yeah. Yeah. Which is funny, you know, pre-Tarantino and pre-many things. But also like post-70s, there were plenty of antiheroes around. I mean, I don't know what they were. It must have been the 80s. Yeah, but they kind of, the sense was they kind of flipped right yeah yeah that's right

because if an anti-hero in a certain milieu it reads like a hero that this was this was just flat out criminal people yeah yeah yeah i mean they had their reasons i had this beautiful role of a artist criminal. Yeah. Good combination. You were the most honest character in some ways. Yeah. Right?

In a funny way. Yeah. In a funny way. Well, I mean, you weren't hiding what you were doing in the sense that you were. Probably more fun to have dinner with. Yeah, exactly. But Friedkin, was that, because I was looking at all the different movies, and you've worked with some amazing directors, and you've worked with some directors many times.

Yeah. And I imagine they all have a different approach, and you're a pretty willing creator. What was your relationship with someone like Friedkin? He was the maestro. I think he was doing it his own way then, because he was sort of out of the studio system and he thought well i'm going to make this film he found a guy to you know put up the money finance

it yeah and they were going to basically i think they call it fourth wallet you know they were gonna put put in theaters and uh it was a very direct know, he wanted to keep it simple, direct. He wanted actors that nobody had associations with. He didn't want stars because he wanted a grittiness. He wanted for people to, you know, have no associations outside of the movie. Right. So he's the maestro. We're a bunch of wet-behind-the-air ear kids uh you know playing these worldly heavy guys

so you know that's where the acting comes in was he a hands-on kind of director very much oh yeah very much yeah no he he i no i i never knew what to expect sometimes you know you come to the set and he'd say you know we're not doing that because I was driving home last night. I saw a really cool location and we rewrote this and I found this really interesting guy. So here's the new scene. We're going to shoot this today. He's very fluid, you know, very open to inspiration. Very exciting. Yeah. Because I mean, I mean, I imagine, you know, working like with the type of actor that you were in theater, that like it must be exciting to me. It's normal.

Yeah, right. Now, outside of working with the Worcester Group and being all hands on and engaged, did you train at all in any formal way outside of college? Not really. Yeah. I mean, mostly by doing. Sure. And even at college, I was, you know, I went to university at a time that it was really interesting because University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee was like a street. It was a blue-collar campus.

Yeah. It was about, you know, immigrant kids going to school for the first time. It was about mothers after having kids returning to school and about Vietnam veterans coming back. So it didn't have, it wasn't like, it wasn't Yale drama school. But you had lots

of different kinds of people. Yeah. And also the faculty was very eclectic. And I think that really had a stamp on me. Sure. Because, you know,

there's no one way. It keeps the flexibility and an appreciation that there's many ways to skin a cat, you know? Yeah, sure. Sorry, you love cats. Oh, no, you can skin a cat. Okay. Metaphorically, I can handle it.

Okay. That just occurred to me. No, no, okay. I'm a big boy. Okay. I'm a pig, personally. Okay. So, that's worth mentioning.

Yeah, sure. Like, I need you to explain a couple of things to me no i'm not i mean like well you did two movies with oliver stone yep and platoon was a huge break yes that that was a life very important yeah like i just turned that movie on the other night and it was in the middle i was flipping through cable and it was right at the scene where you get shot and it's like one of the most brutal moments in in film and in some weird way just completely you know that sums up some part of the vietnam experience yeah um and then you did uh you had a nice part and born on the fourth of july now working with him it would seem to me that him and freaking in intensity are similar? Yes. Yeah.

And when you did... Very different, but similar in intensity. Right. And how did, when you were doing Platoon, entering that world and seeing that script and knowing what was going on, what were your feelings about doing it? I was really excited. Yeah.

You know, you had this guy telling a personal story. You had all these Vietnam vets, including Oliver, advising you and training you. You were playing soldier. So I grew up with World War II movies, Korean movies. And then I also- Real Vietnam. And then you live through Vietnam. And I'm just old enough. I think my year was the last year of the draft. Yeah. But this thing of being a soldier is part of our culture. Look at our military spending.

You can't escape it. And I think as far as also stories and fantasies, it's all wrapped up in there. So the opportunity to play in this story that's personal and lets us kind of tell the story of these people, it was thrilling. Yeah, yeah. And it was a great story.

And there was, you know, you hear these things, but there's such camaraderie, and it was a young cast, you know, that once you got there, Hollywood, it was a million miles away. We were just a bunch of kids playing war and trying to figure stuff out, but guided with this story.

And was that Berenger? He hadn't done a lot either, had he? No, he was the old man of the group. Was he? Yeah, he was a well-known actor, and he had done many things. Big Chill, maybe? I can't remember.

I don't know, but he was the most yeah well known actor and it was sheen and and charlie sheen who was still fairly new he's great and not a lot of movie a lot of first time people yeah uh and and then he did born on the fourth of july which was an after vietnam movie yeah yeah and uh but i guess the guy i want you to to help me out with because i'm sort of uh fascinated with him yet and because you've done four movies with him, you must have an understanding of what's compelling and what's, you know. Abel? Not Abel, Paul Schrader.

Ah, Paul Schrader. I've probably done more than four movies. Yeah? Yeah. You know, he wrote Taxi Driver. He wrote Taxi Driver. And he's done many beautiful movies. Yeah. And everybody always describes him as the writer of Taxi Driver, which is like.

Well, no, I know that, but I've watched his movies. But like, you know, that Taxi Driver, I think the reason that that's important is that he's able to excavate a certain darkness. Yes, of course. Yeah. Yeah. And like when I saw Affliction, you know, I was like, what is going on? Where am I? You got to remember, Affliction comes from a very strong novel too by Russell Banks.

Right. Okay. So that's a very particular one. It doesn't make it any less anything, but I want to point that out. I mean, the ones, you know, the first time I did something substantial with him was Light Sleep, which was, he was talking about something he knew. And it was kind of a white collar drug world of New York. Yeah. And it was thrilling to play that part because it was the kind of part that, you know, that guy could have been me if my life was different.

Sure. And also, I shot very little in New York, and it was very naturalistic in its style for the most part. And it was really fun to play genteel drug dealer for a while. Yeah. A guy that was searching. Yeah. And it was a role that hit me at the right time, and it meant a lot to me.

But his style is very, a little distant. You know, I think he... Schrader? Yeah, he deals with very hot things in a very cool way. Yeah. And I like that. Yeah. Because it makes them burn all the hotter well i think autofocus like a masterpiece oh good autofocus is fun oh that was really fun

and you know that's not a widely seen film but paul has a good nose he really is good at smelling what's in the air you know i thought his his uh his did you see dog eat dog recently i didn't know i gotta see it i i didn't know about it yeah and when was that a little wacky yeah two years ago with nick cage yeah yeah i haven't seen him do something you know i just haven't seen him lately uh nicholas cage yeah oh he works all the time yeah but he does big weird kind of franchise movies sometimes he does and i don't see a lot of the little ones i didn't see the second Bad Lieutenant. Were you in that as well?

No, no. But yeah, how is he doing? He seems good. Yeah. He seems good. You know, I think he wants to find, you know, he appreciates the tentpole movies and, you know, he's still very bankable, but I think he still wants to do weird movies that's one way of saying it sure yeah but uh but like with the autofocus that you know i saw it a couple times when it came out and

his sort of like uh that preoccupation with equipment yeah yeah i thought it was pretty fascinating yeah and also it was i love movies and like this movie that, you know, I'm kind of talking about a lot now, Florida Project. Yeah, I love that movie. The cool thing about autofocus is the making of the film had such parallels to the film itself, you know. The way we made it informed things so much because we were making this in the shadow of hollywood on a shoestring budget yeah about some guys with this you know and and video and we're hiring we're hiring these girls you know i don't know there was something and it wasn't a reflection yeah yeah it was it was really fun a dark reflection we're able to inhabit uh this world because we were living it in a in a parallel

way yeah in that scene like the the sort of like there's a moment in that movie that i just will that where everything is just broken down to a degree where you're just consumed by this compulsion the sex addiction yeah but it's just you and Kinnear on that couch, just both of you jerking off on opposite ends of the couch, just sharing a memory. You know that moment with the casualness of it where you're in something that is that bizarre and that it's become commonplace.

It's normal. Yeah, I just think that's a fun scene for some reason. No, that was a fun movie i i enjoy working with paul is he a dark guy on set uh no he's a happy guy because he likes to work but he's the dark guy in general yeah because he's serious and abel ferrari how many movies you do with him five i think and i'm going to make some more. How's he doing? He's doing great. Yeah? He has a nice, clean lifestyle, a new baby. Oh, good. I'm the godfather to his child. Oh, that's great.

He's my neighbor in Rome. What is it about his vision that you like so much? I don't know about his vision. I like him. Yeah? And he also encourages the way we work i i really feel like a collaborator you know um and the sad thing is he he's not widely distributed distributed yeah here so people are really ignorant of a movie like pasolini it doesn't even isn't isn't even present

here yeah i there's a few of your movies i wanted to watch i can't find the words very different ours ventriloquist stuff is not on itunes that's ridiculous i couldn't find antichrist that's ridiculous right we're living in a very puritanical country. That might be a corporate issue, but maybe you're right. It is, but the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Because they're the hand of the, they're the instrument of keeping the machine going. But with Pasolini, that shouldn't be the issue. That's just bad distribution, huh?

Yeah, I don't know what it is. I mean, you know, you hate to complain. Right, sure. But the truth is, it's know you hate to complain you know right sure but the truth is it's really a mystery to me because even even from a pure grubby commerce standpoint if you put that on some platform you know one of these video uh on demand platforms any gay kid that's in Iowa someplace and feels like he can't connect with icons of a certain kind of culture that express certain things should be able to see that movie. Yeah, absolutely. And there's enough out there.

Pasolini was such a brilliant thinker. And whether you like the movie or not, there is enough expression of what he did in the movie that it's going to be worth it. And then you can go see his work. Exactly. And inspire you to see his work. Well, hopefully maybe people listening will get out there. I mean, I want to see it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm also a big fan of Mississippi Burning. Obviously, I could go through all your movies. Okay. And I'm also a big fan of Mississippi Burning. Obviously, you know, I could go through all your movies. Okay. You're a little top-heavy on the front. So, obviously, you know, you can always tell where people watch movies and where they stop watching them less. Well, let's see.

I just didn't get down the list. Oh, okay. I've seen Cry Baby Wild at Heart. I saw the- Oh, no, no. I'm sorry. I shouldn't bust your balls, but you get it? Yeah, sure I do.

Because what happens is when people are young, they have more time. Sure. They're going out and film was placed in our culture a little differently. That's right. And now when it's harder to find sometimes certain kinds of movies, you got to be a cinephile. And also you got to go. You can't watch them easily. Like I didn't see the Venture films,

either of them, and I'm upset about it because I missed the window. You got to see Antichrist. I do got to see it. Was that a challenging, amazing thing for you? I just think it's a beautiful movie.

It's not what people think it is. I think it's not for everyone, but I think he has such a nose for exploring the unspeakable, you know, really taboos in a constructive way. And he always gets labeled as just being transgressive and kind of a trickster and, you know. But I think there's something in his character that he really knows how to you know look under the rocks

sure and he's a great filmmaker I mean there's some some images and some sequences in that that for me are like

incredibly beautiful yeah but it's rough too so I get it when someone says oh I can't take it I think I can handle it. Yeah, I'm sure you can.

I'm sure you can. Well, see, he's part of the dogma of filmmakers, right? Yeah, he was one of the main guys. But I think, you know, that was a period of time. Well, yeah, because I saw another one, The Celebration. I saw it. And I don't think he directed that one, but it was something. That was a hell of a movie that dealt with some of the same taboos.

It's pretty wild. Shadow of a movie that dealt with some of the same taboos it's pretty wild shadow vampire very good okay and i you know i i think you're pretty good in everything personally i'm a fan good yeah you work with cronenberg too which must have been interesting i saw that movie that's not an easy movie to find right existence right i don't even know if it's a if it's a favorite of cronenberg's i don't know he's very controlled dude man like he knows no and His sets are beautiful. It's really fun to work with him. He feels like not unlike, I imagine, I don't know, Wes Anderson.

A little bit. He sees it. He sees it. Not a lot of wiggle room. Yeah, but you'd be surprised. You know, the irony is when you have a good structure and it's seen, the wiggle room is inside. You.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. And you're free. And you don't lose a certain kind of energy or have a certain kind of anxiety. It's like you can focus better and you can go deeper because you're not, there's a security, but at the same time, the security, you got to punch out, you know? I get it.

So, like, you know, they know what their work is, like, kind of left you only so many choices around their work, but your work. Well, it's like if, yeah, it is about choices and about where to direct your energy. and about where to direct your energy. And if it's articulated, then you have to work in a more focused way in a clearer field rather than having an old whole field and kind of have this gun to your head to be clever or invent or interpret.

You don't worry about that. When you've got a strong language and a strong structure, then you're just trying to survive and live and keep it alive. And somehow in that, that's where you become engaged. Right. Because you aren't, it becomes practical. Right. Yeah, you lose yourself.

Yeah. You lose yourself and deeply you connect with yourself more because you throw away a lot of the surface things of identity and thought, and you get to a more intuitive state, a state that you didn't even know you had because you're kind of putting a corner. Yeah. And you've got to figure it out. Yeah. You know? Yeah, putting a corner. Yeah. And you got to figure it out. Yeah. You know? Yeah, in the moment.

Yeah. Well, how did that apply to the Florida project? It looked like that was a little looser than, obviously, a Cronenberger or an Anderson film, but it was one place. Yeah. The Florida project was beautiful because Sean Baker is really great at using concrete real elements and mixing fictional elements or designed elements in them uh with them and they started out with a really strong screenplay and we i went from sean and uh his writing partner chris and that's what you got first you yeah and it was beautiful.

And you could shoot that. And we did shoot that. But we also shot other stuff. Yeah. And sometimes, also, there would be alternate takes. Sure. Or with the children. There's a lot of kids in this movie,

and they're children, not actors. Well, they're children first, let's say. And they were great. And they were great. Particularly the central girl. She's a little girl, yeah. She's six years old they were great. And they were great. Particularly the central girl. The little girl, yeah. She's six years old and she's a natural, you know, she's a little firecracker. Yeah.

What I'm saying is that you can have both. Yeah, sure. And when you have a structure that can let you, you know, that can make you a little looser. That's the irony. If you're spending too much time looking for that structure, I don't know. No, but it was interesting because watching you, your presence was there all the time.

Well, I had a very clear job. Yeah. You were the manager of the hotel. Yeah, and that's what I did. What did I do? I managed this motel, and we were shooting a the hotel. Yeah, and that's what I did. What did I do? I managed this motel. And we were shooting a movie there. And it was like, I love it when the line between real life, agreed on life,

communally accepted reality gets thrown out for our special reality. Like the manager would be sitting there and we'd have to shoot a scene in the office and they'd like, okay, can you guys step out?

We'll go in, you know? Oh, so that was like that. A little bit like that. So there were people living at that hotel. Oh, yeah. It was a functioning motel. Yeah.

And sometimes we'd be in the middle of a scene and people would come to check in. Yeah. And we weren't a big crew. Right. It was a very small crew.

Yeah. So it's like, don't go in there. Don't go in there. We're shooting. It's not like we had lots of equipment trucks. But everybody's hands on deck with that. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. And then you've got kids running around. Yeah. And then you've got people with real challenging lives coming out to see the circuses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really, it was really good. How did that affect your,

you feel like, how did it affect your performance being in the presence of, you know, what was real destitution and real desperation? It keeps you honest. Yeah, yeah. You don't make a bullshit movie.

You gotta honor those people. Yeah. And you aren't, they don't become, they stop being those people and they become your people. Yeah. Because you're one of them.

Right. Just by sheer proximity. You're talking to them. They're telling you stories. That informs everything. You're down with them. Yeah. And it may be temporary and you have no illusion.

It's a tough world. Sure. You know, it's a tough world. This world that we're talking about for people that haven't seen the movie is a world of people living in low-cost motels in an area in central Florida near the amusement parks that don't have permanent residences. So they're long-term temporary residences in these motels. And it's the kind of Kmart thing that, you know, they pay as they go. You know, the old, you know, when someone doesn't have a lot of money,

they go to Kmart, they say, wow, I can get a grill for 20 bucks. Well, they end up buying 20 grills over their lifetime and that grill lasts about two months it goes in the landfill yeah and next year they have to buy it again if they bought a nice grill in the first place right then they'd have some stability they'd pay a fraction as much and you wouldn't have many grills in the landfill. Right. So we're really, you know, we're a dog chasing its own tail, you know? Sure, sure. And this expresses that cycle a little bit. Because it's a very precarious position because they have trouble after a little bit of the crash and the housing crisis.

crisis a lot of people you know can't find a place to live because they can't afford the the first the down payment or they can't do the security checks or they can't do that yeah yeah they can't they they've fallen out yeah they're not they slip through and in yeah and I thought it was fascinating because you know the the kids the energy of the kids is what buoys the emotional tone of that movie. Oh, yeah. The kids are very present and you see kind of a joyful chaos of the kids. Yeah. But then you have this shadow of the difficulty of the adults and you kind of see a life.

of the difficulty of the adults, and you kind of see a life. And that's what appeals to me about it without wagging fingers or even necessarily giving a solution. That's right. It just shows a world that's kind of trapped in a loop. Yep.

And it's interesting at the end, because your character is interesting. About midway through, you start to realize, well,, this guy's, you know, I don't know what it is, but he's been compromised somehow. Who hasn't? No, no, I'm not. That's the point. It's not judgment.

No, no, I mean. Yeah. No. Yeah. I'm joking. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean.

Absolutely. That's sort of the point. But it's like, it's not overplayed. You don't even know what it is. I imagine that guy helping you move was your son, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's sort of like, I don't know what happened here. don't even know what it is. I imagine that guy helping you move was your son, right? Yeah, yeah. And it's sort of like, I don't know what happened here. Yeah, yeah.

But this is where he ended up. Yep, yep. And he's only one tier above the people, only in the sense that he's got a job. It's the only difference between him and the people living there. That's absolutely right. And I think that's why this isn't, you know, this is not, it's a small movie, but it's not a depressing movie.

And it's not a depressing movie and it's not a limited movie because it points to this impulse that we have to try to make good of a limited situation. Yeah. And it's it's that that balance that we try to do between acceptance, but also forging ahead, trying to make it better. And Bobby, my character is, you know, without telling people before they see the movie too much, but he's a simple guy, you know? There's nothing on the surface extraordinary about him. And, but he makes stuff work somehow because he's good-hearted and he, the big thing, the big takeaway for me is... And not judgmental. No, he recognizes that your happiness, my happiness is dependent on your happiness,

which is a very important equation to learn that we all know, but we don't get a chance to practice very often because we're bred on competition, get ahead of the other guy. You know, if he falls behind, that gives you more room to go ahead, you know, and it's really about cooperation and compassion and helping each other. I tell you, the movie, like, it felt to me a little like some of those movies made in, about kids in sort of like Latin American movies. And some of the, I don't remember titles.

No, I like Peixote or something. Peixote, right. Like that there's these, you know, these sort of, these kids living in poverty in these third world countries. And now you- And they're doing great. Yeah. But you know it's not going to last forever.

Oh, no. And then now there's an American version of that. That's interesting. It felt that way to me, that the joy and relentless exuberance of these kids are the only thing that makes this not a depressing movie. Right. But also my guy. Your guy, too. You can identify with him because he's an everyman.

And even the woman who plays the mother you you know you're rooting for her on some level it's all very compelling and it isn't set it's sad but it's not depressing but at the end of the movie you're confronted with some interesting things in yourself and i don't want to give away much right right no it's sean has done a beautiful job no doubt um it's very balanced and and it's i didn't see the first one it's complete it balanced and it's complete and whole, but it's not closed. That's right. It's got plenty of room for the audience to participate. Yeah.

That always sounds like a lot of work when you say that to people, but it's a pleasure, I think. Well, I like those kind of movies where it is open enough for it to challenge a person's individual sensibility. It's not a closed system. That's right. Yeah. open enough for it to challenge a person's individual sensibility without, you know, you're not, it's not a closed system. That's right. Yeah. And what are you working on now? Are you doing something?

I just got here. I just wrapped on a film called Aquaman. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Is it a superhero movie? Yeah. Yeah. James Wan directing, Jason Momoa, Amber Heard.

What are you doing? Patrick Wilson. I play a good character. I play a character that's kind of the mentor to Aquaman. He's also a politician that is the kind of the Lord Chamberlain or the guy to Patrick Wilson, who is the king. Interesting. Yeah, there'll be plenty of time to talk about that. But just finished that james wan yeah a great director oh good uh big movie big muscular fun movie and what and you did the orient express is it did the orient that's a remake it's a third one i don't

know what they call them reboots remakes refiguring reimagining. But Kenneth Branagh, an incredible, a nutty lead. He directed it? Yeah. Oh. And he stars as Porter O. Oh, okay. And it's a fantastic cast. Very stylish, great script.

I haven't seen it yet, but it was really fun to do. And then, now I'm off to France to do a film with Julian Schnabel. Another one. He did, which one did he, Basquiat? He did Basquiat. He did Diving Bell and the Butterfly. Oh, you did that? He did, I was in, I did a little cameo in Basquiat.

I was in Miral, which was his last one. I like Diving Bell and the Butterfly. And he also did Before Night Falls, which is a beautiful film. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That Javier Bardem was so good in. That's a good movie. Yeah.

I liked his paintings, too. Yeah, he's a great artist. Yeah, he is. And he's fun to work with. In film, I've only worked with him in very small ways because we know each other. So this is a big way? Is this going to be a big way? This is a big way.

No, it's not a big movie. It's a smaller movie, but it's beautiful. It's Van Gogh at the end of his life. Oh, wow. You know, at the period where he was really most productive, but also most challenged, let's say. Yeah. And you're Van Gogh. I'm playing Van Gogh.

What do you do to prepare for that? Right now, I'm growing my beard. Yeah. Learn how to paint. Uh-huh. You do? Read the letters between him and his brother. Theo.

Read a life. Uh-huh. You do. Read the letters between him and his brother. Theo. Read a life. Uh-huh. You know, this very well-researched biography. Uh-huh. But also, Julian leads the way because one of the beautiful things about Julian is, like all great directors, you know, when you come down to it, it's like you got a room. You bring stuff into the room that means something to you or resonate with you or signify something for you. And then you order it, you make a relationship and that relationship and what happens kind of makes its

own story. Everybody's story, story, story. Expressing your point of view or explaining. The best things always happen when you're able to tap into this kind of process of making something. And someone like Julian understands that so deeply. That's why when he started making movies and everybody said, my God, he's a filmmaker. It's a little bit like, duh. Of course he is. Yeah, of course he is. So anyway, I bring that up.

There's plenty of time to talk about that too, but I'm excited. I leave in a couple of days. And you live almost exclusively in Rome now? No, well, you know, I work a lot, so I live in Rome and New York, but lately a little bit more in Rome. That must be nice.

It's a beautiful place. I mean, you know, they've got their challenges, but I call me foolish. Yeah. Si. A distanza bene. Enough? Yeah. I just have to study every day. Oh, foolish. Yeah. Si. I understand some better. Enough? Yeah.

I just have to study every day. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Well, you look great, and you're doing great work, and it was a thrill to talk to you. Okay, cool. Thanks, man. Yeah. That was me and Mr. Defoe.

It was great talking to him. It's nice out here. I'll play some guitar. I'll play some guitar. I'll play some redundant guitar. My gold guitar. And my old ass amp.BGM Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means.

I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.