WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 858 - Lizzy Goodman / Dana Gould

Episode Date: October 25, 2017

Marc completely missed the era of music that writer Lizzy Goodman chronicles in her book 'Meet Me in the Bathroom: Rebirth and Rock and Roll in New York City 2001-2011.' But as Lizzy explains to Marc, that era is just one chapter in the larger New York cultural story, a story that both Lizzy and Marc found themselves rushing to be a part of after growing up in New Mexico. Plus, comedian Dana Gould stops by to talk about his new album, his TV show Stan Against Evil, and Don Rickles. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

Lock the gate! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf how are you? Are you okay? I am okay. Back in the studios, shooting the TV. It's exciting, but it's long hours, and I'm actually recording this late at night after I've shot. But fortunately, I don't have to meander too much or noodle around or think out loud too much because I've got a couple of guests. I've got a nice short talk with the amazing Dana Gould. And then later after that, I talked to Lizzie Goodman about her book. Did you read her book?

The Meet Me in the Bathroom, Rebirth and Rock and Roll in New York City, 2001 to 2011. I was in the book and I, you know, I feel like I completely missed music at that point in time I talked to her about that uh but Dana he's got a new comedy album out called Mr. Funny Man it's available on Kill Rock Stars Records and the new season of his IFC show Stand Against Evil is premiering November 1st and Dana and I go way back I I love him i love him he's one of the guys i knew when i was uh just starting out he was sort of a child prodigy is that what is that what you call it a comedic child prodigy almost he started when he was like 15 or 16 in boston but uh always pretty pretty geniusy so oh i i know what i want to tell you about if you live in los angeles uh you los angelinos

this sunday october 29th i want to see you at our uh only la book talk and signing i'll be at the anne and jerry moss theater in santa monica with my producer and co-author of waiting for the punch brendan mcdonald doing a little boston got a little Boston spin on the talking. This is all part of Live Talks LA. It's a 7 p.m. event, and we'll make it worth your while on a Sunday night. You'll get some book talks, some behind-the-scenes stuff about WTF, some secrets that you didn't already know. We'll take your questions.

We'll sign your stuff. It'll be great. Bring your copy of Waiting for the Punch if you already have one or you can get one with your ticket go to live talks la.org to get tickets or go to the tour page of wtf pod that's sunday october 29th live talks la.org day today for me. As I told you, I'm recording this in the evening and I'm back in it. I'm shooting the glow. I'm shooting with the ladies, the gorgeous ladies of wrestling. We're doing it again, me and Allison, Betty and the crew. But, you know, you got to get up, go to work, hang out, wear costumes, stand one place, stand another place, do the talking, wait, go out, another camera, change a lens, do the talking again. It's a little tedious, but when you do get to do the acting and you engage and you have that emotional connection, it's nice. It's good.

It's exciting. It makes the world go away for a few minutes, which gets harder and harder to do. I hope you guys are hanging in. And as I said, I'm a little tired, and I've got two guests, so I'm going to lean on that a little today. So Dana Gould, what can I tell you about Dana Gould? He's been on the show before. He's had his problems. He's had his ups and downs.

He's a warrior of the mind, a battler of the depression, a survivor of an alcoholic family, a father, a writer, Simpsons writer in an inspired stand-up. He's the whole package. If you don't know him you should check out his stuff and as i said he's got an album out now mr funny man that's on kill rock stars records and his his ifc show stand against evil premieres november 1st the new season and this is uh he just stopped by to chat and it was a it was a treat and i want you to listen to me and dana talking because me talking right now not great not great in the head not great in the heart and a little tired but this

is me and dana on a different day having a conversation it's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with uber eats well almost So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials.

Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+.

18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I don't know man how old are you I'm 53 I just turned 53 I'm 54 today happy birthday I had no idea yeah I'd have bought something now I feel like shit now I feel bad it's just nice to see you it's nice to see you it's nice I didn't do that to you. You did that to you. Well. Don't you blame me. You've cracked it. I'm not going to play that game. You cracked it. You can play that game with ladies. I know.

I play that game pretty fucking well. I know you do. Not on my watch. I'm a Jesse Owens of that game. Well, I'm going to. Happy birthday. Thank you very much. Do you have plans?

We're going to go out to dinner, me and the girlfriend. Let me ask you a question about that. I know this is your podcast, but I want to ask you a question. She's not a girl. No, I know. I have this. I don't like partner. Nor is mine.

But woman friend sounds like she's my nurse. Grandpa's coming over, but he's going to have to come with his woman friend. You're getting close, Grandpa. Yeah, I know. A few more years. I don't know what to call it. I he's gonna have to come with his woman friend yeah you know you're getting close grandpa yeah i know a few more years i don't know what to i don't know what to call i don't have to call some people go a partner but i don't know i just go with girlfriend fuck yeah that's what i said yeah what does yours do uh she's uh an editor and an editor this is a new thing yeah uh-huh how's it going? Very good. Very happy. How long? Not long, like a little over like two months or something.

Oh. But it's been really. Oh, good. She's an adult, you know. Like, okay. Yeah. She's a grown woman, has the children, you know, like we have. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah. So like even playing playing field level playing field yeah yeah it's yeah very much so mature relationship yeah i imagine that at this point uh you've maybe you've met somebody that doesn't give a fuck about the things that you both used to give a fuck about and totally yeah well it's when you especially with with kids yeah

it's just you really got to prioritize sure you don't like i don't the first thing that goes out the window is going to see bad movies ironically like that's not done i can't do that no time yeah but but i am like at that point like all right i don't want to fuck this up yeah oh good so yeah i feel that too Great. Now I have to grow. Yeah. Yeah. Or turn some shit off. Yeah.

I have to turn some shit off and be an adult. Yeah. It's the worst, right? I'm going to grow. He muttered. Yeah. Muttered as he stuffed all his feelings. Like, I'm just like a Halloween dummy of feelings instead of leaves.

Just walking around going well what am i supposed to do with this tone yeah i have to save this for horror movies where does this go why are you going in the basement when your friend was just killed in the kitchen and why am i doing albert brooks now why not it's relieving why am i now i'm angry and i'm albert because we wish we could make it as endearing as albert when i'm operating at that tone yeah it's never endearing yeah there's nothing i'm angry yeah i just and i've honestly like you get to a point in your life where you can't keep blaming your parents for your shit not actively not exactly like you can't keep blaming your parents for your shit. Not actively. Not exactly. Like, you can't say it, but we both know.

Yeah, exactly. You know, my family of origin, God love them, and I have great relationships with all of them. But I have still such little self-esteem. Like, it took me the longest time. Like, oh, you actually like me. Like, when I come over, you're happy. Yeah. Okay.

Your funeral. All right, then. longest time like oh you actually like me like when i come over you're happy yeah okay your funeral all right then good luck with that good luck i'll show you some pictures of the last ones this one's from college yeah yeah look at the eyes in that one look at that just bats and screaming children that's all you can see she thought it was going to be okay are these pictures of people just out of dachau oh they wish well here's the you know you know dan klaus the brilliant cartoonist talk to him you know what he did for a while especially in eight ball uh-huh those the characters would have these crazily existential stricken yeah face what he would do is he would go into towns and he would buy old mug shots huh so he was basing these

drawings of people at the worst moment of their life oh really getting fingerprinted i don't think he told me that yeah i interviewed him i know that he makes note of people. Like he sees people a certain hat or a certain, like he'll see people in passing and sketch. And he's such a brilliant observer of people in the way, like when he was in Chicago, you look at the eight balls that he did when he was in Chicago and everybody in there looks like people from Chicago. You know, everybody looks like a ham sandwich. Yeah. And then when he moved to Berkeley and Oakland, it took on more of that cast that's really great where did you record this new special

uh it's just an album uh it's just the audio yeah it's a a comedy record but but available digitally as well or just on vinyl no it's only it's only i want no one to buy it so i made a thousand copies a small pressing of a record yeah Yeah, it's on Edison Cylinder. No, it's just digital. And I said to the record company, let's do a vinyl thing. They went, eh, it's okay. They make money. They're a real record company.

No, no, we actually, we're in this to make a profit. We're not going to do that. I think mine came out, like, I just, it was weird because I shot a special for Netflixflix yeah bobcat directed it no not that one there's a new one lynn shelton directed okay bobcat directed my epics special okay yeah but uh but they wanted to do record and i'm like all right and then they're like i was gonna do the set uh take it do the same set but elongated sure yeah and then like by the time it came to the wire i'm like i just take that just take the thing yeah i did it already i think that's how to do it and and i i wish this was a special but nobody i i i because there was a point there was a brief period of time when netflix gave

comedy specials to everyone between the ages of 25 and 45 maybe i just got in under the wire on that no no a lot of people have comedy specials on netflix that aren't even comedians there's a guy at my trader joe's that has one i know that guy yeah the guy that sprays the broccoli he has a special called still spraying and i i got there it's like i i always miss the door like i get like why you don't know and hey you're gonna have your own tv show i'm gonna be rich no not anymore no no you'll still have to go out to acme in minneapolis and do a weekend oh but i'm a but i i'm an exec producer of a tv show yeah i know it's six yeah uh and then uh yeah that says that right at the end i can have a

comedy special no actually no but uh you you But you should plug the MC's comedy special because he did get one earlier. Oh, you'll have a comedy. I have many of them. I know, I know. You'll have another one. But what I found is... How do you feel about this moment

where I did the comedy special with Netflix and it was good. I was glad that I got the opportunity. Sure, yeah. But then you hear about like you know seinfeld chris rock and louis this like they just gave jerry seinfeld a half a billion dollars but thank god because i was worried i was worried not that it's not i'm not even jealous but it's sort of like can you give me like uh maybe maybe like five percent yeah yeah i'm not complaining

but if you're throwing money away yeah exactly i'll take a little no i was you know i they were it was one of those things where i was gonna tape it and then i was gonna do it with a company yeah that i did my last special with and then there were the dates were confused and then they were like well we can only do it on this date and i was getting ready to go into production on season two of the show. And I, you know, you can feel the material ripening and reaching putrescence. Sure. And then you feel it dying.

Yeah, exactly. And I was, I was looking at some, I was looking at a necrotic set list as they call it. And, uh, I really wanted to get it down. And I have a really great agent, uh, at William Morris named Sylvia Oland, who's really a terrific guy. And he goes, let's just do an album. Yeah. And he called up this record company and bam, nailed it and got it in.

And I do find that the audio lives longer than the video. Yeah, I think so. People listen to comedy on the radio. They listen to comedy on their phone. It's rare that they will sit down and watch a special again that's true that's true but i will watch passive yeah yeah exactly but i'll listen to uh especially again i'll listen i'll shit you i'll listen to comedy records i've heard before i listen to uh because because now uh you know you have that done and

you're getting ready to go back out on the road and yeah you've got to frantically get new shit get new shit yeah i mean i'm not i don't believe it has to be 100 new but it should be do you really not believe that or are you just telling i really i know i really do but uh i'm i'm much lower than the percentage that it should be um i think people want to hear one or two things that you know like i don't know i i think i because i think you and i are similar in that in that whoever's judging that whoever's saying like no this is a shit from the record whoever's saying that usually we make them up and yeah well there no there are a couple i was like you always get that oh look 20 of the stuff is new yeah but why that why do we listen to that guy yeah because because he's the guy that

hates us as much as we do that's why he's no he's just a little disappointed sorry it's just the way we are with us just a little disappointed never almost you almost got it but not quite right but i would you know i probably saw george carlin i don't know a dozen times yeah my life and i would always love it when it was like oh well he's gonna do baseball and football great this is and you go to this is great listen to this i still enjoy it sure i i listen to i like hearing beats like you know there's because this music it's a form of music it's a form of music like when you know like i you know who i can listen to over and over again if it comes up because i got the uh shuffle going. If Schimmel comes up, I'm like, oh.

Because he was such a master of this very specific type of timing. This kind of morose Jewish. You know who it's? He's descended from Jackie Vernon. Yeah. Good pull. He told me. And you know who else was heavily influenced by Jackie Vernon?

Let me guess. Who? Stephen Wright. Sure. That makes and you know who else was heavily influenced by Jackie Vernon? Let me guess, who? Stephen Wright. Sure, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah. I love Jackie Vernon. Yeah, Jackie Vernon was amazing. It's great. I saw, he was the guy I saw.

My parents took me to see him when I was like 11. Oh my God, where? That's what changed me. Because I saw him on TV do the slideshow, and then he came to Albuquerque, and I saw it in the paper. In Albuquerque, it was a lounge in the Hilton Hotel. That's fantastic. And my parents took me to see him. him and that was what you know i was like

that's when i knew but if he but what if he opened with him so i'm taking a shit yeah they would have been fine but we were close enough just to see like you know he's old and he's like you saw all of it all the show business and i was and i was not afraid i was like this is still good you know we're good i had this conversation with somebody the other day this is really really interesting i was talking about how much i love rickles yeah and i was talking to a a younger com well they're all younger yeah um and i was quoting some of those stuff and this guy's hell yeah that's not so good that's what because because he's so unwoke. Oh, yeah. You know, because it has nothing to do with that.

Yeah. It's all music. Yeah. And I love the beauty and the rhythm of the music. Sure, sure. And I remember seeing him. Sometimes he said things that didn't even make sense, but because it was rhythmically I will give you a beautiful example.

I was with your friend and mine, Robhen yeah at the desert inn and they had just had a giant renovation of the desert inn and it was sweltering yeah in the showroom and he goes had a 40 million dollar renovation they got a great air conditioning system two fags on the roof with a piece of loose leaf paper going what does that even mean it doesn't mean a goddamn thing he could have said tortoises he could have needed one syllable i thought he could have said bears yeah yeah you know i'm not laughing because i'm straight and therefore i'm exerting my heterosexual privilege in a derogatory way no he says that's what i'm laughing at. But the weird thing is that, like, if you listen to someone like Schimmel, who is usually the victim of his own jokes.

Yes. And in life, had the life of fucking Job. Yeah. And, like, then the political, whatever is politically incorrect about it, it's self-directed. It's self-directed, right. And then I don't, like... He's the victim of every joke. Every joke has a victim. Yeah. And in Schimmel's act, it was him. Yeah. it's self-directed self-directed right and then i don't like he's the victim of every joke every

joke has a victim yeah and in shimmel's act it was him yeah and something somehow that can elevate i think i agree i agree yeah i don't know if i i've had these discussions but like i for some reason i'm just able to separate i i don't know that you know revisionism is necessary just because times change in terms of what you you know you feel personally attached to or what you like you know like obviously i don't know cosby's a little difficult but but i can say this is woody allen for me yeah but i can still you know i don't do we delete all that stuff do do do we delete our emotional connection to it right i i don't see how that's possible exactly and it's like do we condemn my love of hitler's paintings i i have to separate you have that book

too it's just terrific i have to separate i have the coffee table book inside yeah it's just called hitler's painting a lot of angles a lot of hard angles not a lot of people but a lot of beautiful buildings oh yeah but that's i used to do a joke about that it's like well you know, Hitler was a vegetarian. But yeah, there's, and I think I also, and a lot of it is just being nostalgia, nostalgia for being, to being a kid, like watching Rickles on the Dean Martin roast and everybody, it's a totally different school of show business than you and I grew up with. Goldthwait told me a story that when he worked with rickles rickles would would just roast him all day and then afterwards would pull him aside now are you set are you smart with your money do you like he was a very caring well that's what my that's what my grandmother said like she'd go see him in vegas and he'd shit on everybody but

he'd she's she put it like this he apologizes very nicely very nice but the only thing with bob that he couldn't understand is that he wore jeans on stage. Right. He's like, Bob, you can't. You have to dress nicely. You have to dress. And that's the thing that broke for that generation. Like these kids, they wear t-shirts and jeans.

Yeah, but that was Carlin, the kid he's talking about. Right. But what I'm saying is in that era. Right. And for us, I think it's like we he's he can say fag or he can say whatever and it doesn't have any well he's ultimately got a shoulder that and if it's gonna you know like you can attack me for you know still respecting somebody who has not updated his arsenal like and that's and that's and that's a that's a valid point that you do have to update

and and he didn't honestly he didn't need it. I was watching him. I went down to Jerry Lewis rabbit hole when he died. Oh, yeah. And I was watching the Jerry Lewis roast from 1968. Rickles was on it. Uh-huh. The two things that killed me.

But that's a friar's roast. That's not even the. Right. Yeah, yeah. The one, the first joke that killed me was just like, Jerry, I say this from the bottom of my heart. Jerry, you're a Jew. It's just like.

All right, yeah. But the other one was, didn't he go, you know, Jerry's a clown, and there are a lot of great clowns. Emmett Kelly, that's about it. When he came up, I don't remember who he was roasting. It was one of the Dean Martin ones, and James Stewart was on the dais, right? And he goes, Jimmy, I spoke to the family. You're doing fine.

There was one where he was on. It was his last Carson appearance. It was his last Carson appearance because Johnny was retiring, and then he made Johnny laugh so hard, Johnny got into a coughing fit. Careful, John. Every time you cough, Leno's at home high-fiving the wife. Oh, good one.

I love when he got mean, like when it was like, that's some real shit. Yeah. Have you seen that one where they built him a club filled with just celebrities, the Dean Martin?

There's a Dean Martin roast. It might have been the Dean Martin show, where they wanted to recreate a live rickles show i have it because i signed up for the goddamn yeah the dean martin roast thing yeah i never stopped coming i had no idea there were so many but there was one that came it might have been the dean martin show but they set up a club they made on a sound stage and had people like pat boone in the audience all the celebrities ricardo mataban like it was probably 1970, early 70s, mid 70s. And Rickles just went up and did his club act and insulted everybody.

Yeah, it was great. He's just sweating. In mid 70s when the American flag had wide lapels, like everyone wore an ugly jacket. I know it's an interesting question though about, because I had this moment where, you know, being a comic as long as we have have you know and you and i are old guys already yeah and and by the way just i am fully aware before anybody jumps down my throat yeah about don rickles and whatever yeah i know i'm i'm i'm done i'm in i'm with this is not what is contemporary this is my

view of it pete townsend was talking about that john entwistle used to bitch about rap yeah that he didn't get it yeah and he said it's not our job to get it it's our job to get out of the way right and and i and i'm aware of that yeah yeah i get it i get it yeah yeah well no i mean i i you know i can it it becomes difficult depending on what the transgression is to stay supportive. You don't have to be supportive of somebody. You can condemn somebody and you think somebody's awful, but still say like, that's second record though. Sure.

And somebody said a really smart thing. Do you know Marcela Arguello? Uh-uh. New comic, really, really funny. Really funny and really smart and somebody was you know bashing some unwoke person who then apologized for it and and she said you know you have to let people make their mistakes and grow in public you kind of let have to you have to let people grow yeah you can't just like you know you know uh terrorize them into some sort of cultural siberia yeah yeah and the you know my last

special yeah the one before this one um i had a whole thing at the end about the r word and how it's now equated with the c word and i tried to do one of those bits yeah yeah and uh i wouldn't and i did i mean the bit was about the the strictly the nomenclature of equating that word with the n word and the c word oh it was actually addressing the that that whole thing yeah it wasn't about like i don't use it that way no because then i did use it you know i you know i said i would never do this and then i did i cheated all over the place and i you know i i said it and i said the n word and the c word too um and i say them now with relish no at home that's how i mutter myself to sleep but what happened i wouldn't i nothing happened but i wouldn't have done i wouldn't do it today i got i did a bit about it, about defending the use of it in a sense of like in a nostalgic way.

You know what I mean? I grew up with that. Yeah. Right. But then I got someone, I think it was an email that just said, I'm the parent. And that was it. And then I had a couple of slips, but eventually i got a handle on it i i did it and then i met john mcginley uh who's uh very on the forefront of of of all those issues uh and uh it becomes real yeah and it and it's not about first amendment it's

about oh these people have feelings and they're yeah in their lives and you go oh yeah okay i get it well that's the thing is like how attached are you to that you really need it the freedom of using that word it's not no one's censoring anybody yeah it's like you're hurting people's feelings and it's already hard for them exactly yeah that's brilliant yeah it's like you're hurting people's feelings and it's already hard for them yeah exactly yeah that's brilliant yeah it's like yeah they have a rough enough time and you and you can and that is true like you can say that with rickles talking about sure fags on the roof of the they have enough they have enough they have enough trouble i my my feelings about that are like you say whatever you want but your shoulder the you're gonna have to take take the burn yeah take the burn and then handle it the burn. And then handle it.

What's this new season stand against evil? Did you finish it? It's all done? Yeah, we finished it. It premieres November 1st on IFC. How is it different? It takes the story further. The premise of the story is,

the whole idea of the show was quite simple. Yeah. I love horror movies movies they're my football so i just thought what if i did a horror movie but put a character in the middle of it that didn't belong there yeah and it was basically what if my dad was in a horror movie because he wouldn't give a shit he doesn't know he just no he doesn't he does know he doesn't give a fuck right and and we used to make that joke if you remember the end of king kong when he's on the building and the planes are flying around my brothers and i used to joke that if our dad was in one of those planes that he would like fly out of formation check the score

in the baseball game come back shoot a little bit more go back um and i just thought it would be interesting if like what if instead of buffy the vampire slayer it was just an old irish guy that didn't give a shit yeah and and and that was the the premise and i didn't i my mother is still alive but his wife who would have been my mother uh dies before the show starts and because i needed them to have a giant vulnerability or he's just an asshole okay yeah uh then what john mcginley did with that was created this amazingly nuanced character he's a good actor huh he's a real actor been around for a long time yeah he's not fucking around he doesn't seem to age much either does he no he's he lives at the gym i mean his arms are yeah and i say this knowing he's listening to it his arms are terrifying um

uh you know he's in he's in crazy like an old irish boxer from like a poster for the 1800s wasn't he yes he was he was in like five oliver stone movies he was in wall street he was in platoon he was in any given sunday yeah but he's built like an old irish boxer you know he's all upper body uh-huh and uh but he created he gave this character so much more than than i had given it on the page and and and i have to also uh give janet varney uh amazing uh kudos for the the way she balances him the ballast that she and is such a strong actress but because john had done so much with this work that for the second season I had to write up to him so I developed a whole arc of a storyline where there's a time travel element where he's

going to try to go back and save his wife's life oh wow and as is always happens makes things much worse oh good and that's the arc this season that's the arc this season and what's the name of the record that cd that digital that what did i call it a record because i don't know what else to call it what's the name of my down because my download sounds vaguely filthy yeah um mr funny man and this is what what do you catch on huh do you count how many you've done how many records how many specials uh i have the worst I proudly have the worst album titles. Funhouse is fine. Yeah.

But it's an Iggy Pop album. And his album is much better. Yeah. Let me put my thoughts in you. I know it's wrong, which is okay. That's good. And this is Mr. Funny Man. It's good.

Well, I mean, the bigger problem is really the artwork, generally. Yes. You look at almost any comedy record and you know somebody was like what was i thinking yeah almost every comedy record well it's every comedian gets to be a rock star for that that one day where you get to look figure out your album and cover yeah um i did i did all right like you know in retrospect i don't have any stupid ones and the last you know the last don't try to be funny on your cover exactly don't try to be funny on your cover that's it that's it i or in your quad split head

shot oh yeah the worst people from boston we both know yeah yeah yeah i think what were there different panels like in different hats and yeah i can't say it on the air but i'll tell you what we're doing i probably Shore had one of those. I remember seeing it at the comedy store. I like how if they wear different hats, I know they can play different jobs. You can be a fireman and a chef. Is it Frankie Face? Who is it?

I can't. I can't. All right. All right. All right. Well, good. Well, it's good talking to you, man. Great to see you.

Dana Gould. The dana gould so lizzie goodman who i'm going to be talking to next in just a second um she was very good friends with mark spitz the late mark spitz they dated years ago and mark spitz was a a great writer in his own right, a music writer, and wrote a great memoir. And he was on this show. And because he passed not too long ago, you can still listen to that episode in the free feed if you'd like. It was a great episode. It was very personal, very engaged. And we miss old Marky. We miss him. So Lizzie Goodman, the writer, We miss him. So Lizzie Goodman, the writer, is my guest. And I met her with Mark once, but she put me in her book and we talked about it when she was writing it. Then she sent me the galley and I didn't quite get to it. Then she sent me the real book. And honestly, I just skimmed it, looked at my part. But I have very little recollection. I talked to her about this, but whatever was happening in rock and roll from 2001 to 2011,

I got to tell you, I think I missed most of it. I don't know what I was doing. I don't know where I was. I mean, the last time I knew I was really locked in to rock and roll happening in real time was probably in the late 80s and then some i just some i went away i don't know where i went but i wasn't i wasn't locked in i'm locked back in but this the 2001 to 2011 i was just a struggling comic trying to figure it out i did get i got sober like i guess it was right after i got sober that might have something to do with it but i just wasn't keyed in to the new york music scene i was just keyed into the comedy scene there was some crossover we we hammer it

out lizzie and i hammer it out and i like talking to her the book is called meet me in the bathroom rebirth and rock and roll in New York City, 2001 to 2011, which apparently are my lost years. But that's not true. I did. I did radio, did Air America. I got divorced. I got, did I get married?

I got married and divorced in those years. That would have something to do with it. So I was listening to music, but it was like 12 to 15 songs that i put on a fucking mix after my wife left me that a lot of that a lot of those 12 to 15 songs if you need a heartbreak mix i got one how long have you been in la uhA.? I have a real problem here. Really? Yeah, I've been here three days. What, are you frazzled?

Do you know how to drive? Did you drive? I know how to drive. Did you drive here? I'm from New Mexico. I know how to drive. That's right. We grew up, you're friends with, I always forget that.

I want to go. I'm going. You should. I think that's a great idea. It's great there. How long did you stay in new mexico till like 14 seconds after i graduated from high school which high school albuquerque academy i don't i you didn't tell me all this no probably not i don't know you went to the academy yeah how

old are you i'm i'm i'm 37 i'm 25 i don't know I just had a birthday and I realized that I've been telling people my old age for at least the last couple of weeks because I forgot. I'm 37. I was born in 1980. What was your old age? 36 as it turns out. I thought you meant you had a go-to. No, no, no. I have this joke with my friend, Rob Sheffield, that my age is 26 forever. I have not really evolved past that. I may, I'm moving, I think I might move, I have to maybe come here a lot more now.

What's happening? And so I'm thinking. Oh, don't just drop that one, it means nothing. But one of my biggest, I've been thinking about where I wanna live for a long time. You're gonna get in the show business? Yeah, I mean, it seems to be happening. Really?

Yeah. In what way? But I will tell you, but just my biggest concern is that I'm going to miss winter. And one of my friends who's, I mean, half my friends live out here. And one of my friends who's been lobbying me for an LA move for a long time was just suggested to me recently, and I never thought of this. Like, you go to New Mexico for winter. Go have winter in New Mexico. So how do you-

No, actually, just go have a mild winter. Well, I mean mean it's cold it's not new york cold i live in upstate new york right now oh my god so where uh high falls new york it's what are you doing up there i was finishing a book this book yeah that i'm no different one the one i'm the one i'm avoiding talking about the one you're avoiding talking about because you probably hate it which is is fine. Hate is not the word. Disagree with? No, it's not even a disagreement thing.

I missed it. Of course. I missed this. It's called the Rebirth and Rock and Roll in New York City, 2001 to 2011. I know none of the bands in here, really. Would you like some help? Well, that's what we're going to do, but we're not done yet. Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, I like the idea of spending the casual winters in New Mexico where it's pretty. Canyon on fire. Sure, sure. Some parkas. White snow. Yeah. Luminarios. The luminaria vibe in Corrales is awesome when you get your house there. Everyone's doing the lights now, though.

No one does the candles anymore. You can't go set them on fire. Oh, good. They 100% do. It's the real thing now, though. No one does the candles anymore. You can't go set them on fire. Oh, good. They 100% do. It's the real thing. All right. Some people still do the real thing. It's a very traditional place, Corrales, New Mexico.

Where do you think about living here? I'm not admitting that I'm thinking about living here. No, I don't like cool people. I don't like them. I don't want to be near them. Like, I don't, wherever the Williamsburg of LA is, I don't want any part of that. There's no Williamsburg of LA. Thank I don't want any part of that. There's no Williamsburg of LA.

Thank God. It's not because here it's like block to block, you know, Williamsburg. I may be, I don't know. It's different here. I mean,

I want to live by the beach, but everyone says that you can't live by the beach because you'll, you know, fall off the face of the earth. Why is show business courting you? Because of the book. Oh really? Yeah.

Mark's like, oh, that didn't even occur to me. What an awful idea. I have to tell you something important, which is going to disturb you, but some people like it. No, no, I know. People love it, and I understand that. I'm not being condescending. Yeah, for a TV show, there's a... No, I know you're not.

I'm totally teasing you. That's funny. This book is about a period where you could actually get most of the people to play themselves as their younger selves, and it'd be pretty close. Pretty close. Yeah, it is very recent. No, it's going to be. There's documentary and narrative, fictional adaptation series ideas moving around. Yeah, yeah.

That's great. I'm excited about it. I mean, I want to do more of that stuff anyway and always have or have in the last few years. And so it's like fun to think about how to make, I mean, people, I've just felt really gratified by the kinds of ideas that have been, you know, because I was skeptical about the whole Hollywood thing.

But so far I've been, the people that I think we're going to be working with are awesome. Well, where did you, how did you start out? Where'd you end up? You went to the Academy, you graduate. You got brothers and sisters? Yeah, I got a younger brother, Jake.

That's a good name. Yeah, he's good. He lives in Nigeria. Really? He's a foreign service officer. He's a diplomat. Oh, good for him. Yeah, I know.

Did the State Department didn't cut him loose yet? No. No, not yet. That's good. Maybe in Nigeria, they're sort of like, let the guy stay in Nigeria. He just got there. He just got there. And it's funny, we're talking about Luminari.

He's going to have Luminari, or something. He's getting married in December in England, in London, and he's going to have all this New Mexican stuff. We've been talking a lot about bringing the New Mexico to, the New Mexico Christmas vibe to London. Oh, that's nice.

Yeah. But where'd you go to college after you ran away? Penn. I went to Philadelphia. I mean, I wanted to be on the East Coast like right away. Yeah. I was all about New York. I was obsessed with New York and with the idea of like Eastern urban magic.

Yeah. You get that. When you grow up in a smart household in New Mexico, you're like, I want to go to where it really happens. I like all this cowboy intellectual shit. That's exactly how I felt. I mean, it is disturbing to be talking to you about this because there's basically no one who gets out of New Mexico. So those of us who do all have the same kind of like core spirit about that.

People go back. They go back. Oh, tons, tons. Yeah. I mean, you're going back not not yet i've been thinking about it though it's drawing i think about it too the way of life yeah like me too like i don't i like i i don't i'm done with new york i'm almost done with la where else am i gonna go this is how i feel you say i'm too young to feel this way this is literally the conversation i've been having while i'm here i'm like i will always feel like i live in new york but i don't

need to live there anymore and so therefore where do i feel good well that's only corrales exactly oh jesus like literally only corrales starting to feel that it's the only place for me it's not quite corrales but i always romanticize corrales, but I'm a couple miles away. I'm like, I'm like, very close to Corrales. But all right, so you go to Penn and study what? English and classics. And your plan was only good, was to be a writer? No, what a crazy idea. What idiot would do that?

You can't be a writer. What was the plan to go to New York and what? Just like hang out? No, the plan was to, I york and what just like hang out no the plan was to i did you know i was 18 i didn't have a i had a i had a homing instinct not a plan it was like i'm gonna come to college because you have to go to college and like i'll go as close to new york as i can go and i was really a good student and i cared about being a good student and i loved school and i had a great time at penn but no the plan what it what happened was and this is the right call like i now understand this in a way that i

can articulate and didn't at the time but i advocate for it it's like i had to put myself near stuff that would so i could be in a position to have what should happen next revealed to me right you know what i mean like Like that's what New York is. It's a notion, you know, for me and for others that that's kind of what the book's about is that sense of, I don't know why I'm going here. I'm just going here because it seems something's telling me to do that. And I can't tell you why.

And I may not even know right away or for years, but it's where my next myself is going to emerge. Well, oddly, it's because the place that New York holds in the cultural unconscious for years, at least since the 70s, especially if you're groovy, artistic you know uh literary it's like it's looms large yeah it means something it means something it's an idea and and but there but still to this day there's nothing else like it i mean you you know you can that's why i can't live anywhere i'm like well but do you did you find always that like i was just in new york and for the first time in my life i went over to jazz at lincoln center as a 53 year old and it's always been there and i was there for for 15 years on

and off and i did nothing you're like oh yeah hey like all this stuff's available to me like people like did you go to the museum of modern art i did once twice yeah but i twice and now like i feel like i'm ready to do that stuff and it's fortunate because now i understand new york pretty fucking well i can get around i know how to do it so if i it's fortunate because now I understand New York pretty fucking well. I can get around. I know how to do it. So if I go in for three days, I'm like, is there a show we're going to see? All right, let's do it. But that's okay. That is exactly why I feel like my current relationship with New York is among the best

that I've had, which is like when you leave, you are able to be a kind of, it's almost like the first 15 years are investing in understanding the place enough that you can become an informed tourist when you go there so now i do that too like i go in from upstate you know every week or so every 10 days and i do three days of city stuff i see all my friends i go to restaurants i do all these things that i had no energy to do because i was so relentlessly overstimulated by the time I left that I was like, I can't even like I just want to hide. And so now there's this the slate has been cleared. And it's like New York is fun again. But but I don't ever feel when I was 19 and started coming to the city

from Philly all the time, I felt like I needed it to like, kind of work on me in order to help me figure out how to become myself and now I know how to be myself how did it start what year did you go there what year were you 1998 I moved to Philadelphia and I was in school my dad is a New Yorker so my dad grew up on in Stuyvesant town yeah and my grandparents I was on a waiting list there for a while are you who's gonna get that apartment come on you tell me about the Stuyvesant Town. Yeah. And my grandparents still live there. I was on a waiting list there for a while. Who's going to get that apartment? Come on. You. Tell me about the Stuyvesant.

Tell me about your grandparents' apartment. Okay. Well, it has pink walls. Yeah, but who's getting that next? Ruth Goodman lives there. Yeah. She's, you know, she's, it's her place, man. Yeah.

I mean, no one's, it's a rental. It's still like. I know, rent controlled rental. it's a deeply rent controlled rental yeah your eyes are like glinting always a new yorker always in your regular size oh you've got two bedrooms two real big what's the kitchen like how yeah it's the last of the rent control listen everything you're thinking is true it's your fantasy come true it's like the it's a rent control. Listen, everything you're thinking is true. It's your fantasy come true. It's like the, it's a big. No, it's not.

No. It's not. Like you walk over there, you're like, this would be good. When you, when I was there, you're like, the idea of rent control was like, I had rent stabilized, but that doesn't mean something. No, I had rent stabilized too, but that's like, they're like, it's not as brutal. So really when you moved to New York in earnest, this is when this book starts. Yeah.

I mean, I started coming to the... Exactly. Like, I started coming to the city from Philly to see... Well, the story is, it's in the introduction to the book. It's basically like I moved to New York the first summer that I was in college. So after freshman year, I moved to the city. I lived in my grandparents' apartment. I worked at Sesame Street.

During the summer? Yeah. And I got a job in a grandparents apartment I worked at Sesame Street and I got a job in a restaurant you worked at Sesame Street? yeah I had an internship at Sesame Productions it was a production company that produced Sesame Street that was my internship you were going for show business I was like this is the justification for me being here that's the one?

you picked Sesame Street? I didn't pick it it it was like available and really i was like i need to go hang out in new york city did you see the trash camera oscar lives no no they never let me near it wasn't a cool it was like i don't even remember what i did i wasn't near actual sesame street it was the production it was you know it was a midtown office building that was over there go to the set no set? No. How could you work for Sesame Street and not go see where Oscar lived? Sesame Street's production company produces a lot of shows.

Sesame Street is the crown jewel. I was a lowly intern. I love that you're acting like this was my choice. Yeah, one day they rolled in and they were like, do you want to go to the Sesame Street set? And I was like, nah. No, that's not how it happened. How would you not ask?

No one invited me. I was... You didn't meet Ernie orbert i didn't i wanted to meet rock boys mark i did not care over no grover all right grover i met he hung out with me i took him to a stroke show we were like all right yeah he taught me how to ride the subway all right so you're there you're working in sesame street not going to not doing all the things that I know I've disappointed you deeply. And just,

I got a job in a restaurant cause I needed to make money because I wasn't in school and I had to like support, you know, I had free rent, but I had to like eat or whatever by clothes, I guess, whatever I cared about at that time records. And so I got this job at this uh i got this job training to work at this restaurant uh across the street from grand

central station so they were opening any day now and they were hiring up staff and i got this job and um we and of course it took much longer for them to open than they had anticipated so they basically had hired this staff of kids bored hot city kids yeah who went there every day for like four hours and got paid this lowly amount of money and did things like practiced waiting tables and learned the wine list and stuff like that and my co-worker was nick valency who was the guitarist in strokes and he was in this band like with his friends called the strokes at that point the portal opened and you're like no i mean no it was years that was 19 that was the summer of 99 and it was i mean it was a couple years before like albert the other

guitarist had not joined the band yet they weren't they it was my friend nick's like band nick i was nick was like half-heartedly in college and they were just city kids and it was i mean the portal that opened that summer was not rock and roll it was new york it was like oh nick was cool in in that he grew up in the city and understood how to sort of like wander well um and how to get into bars and how to do stuff just it was sort of it was what like i had been learning on with training wheels in philadelphia about as a new mexico kid like how do you how do you orient yourself in urban life and and let these places kind of like you know wash over you and expose you to the things you're supposed to be exposed to how to get the rhythm down um and that like nick and i would just hang out after uh after pretending to wait tables and

uh you know like wander around office parks and smoke weed and office park pillar you know behind office park pillars and sort of like just wander around midtown it wasn't and then sometimes i would go downtown to like st. Mark's and sneak into bars and do stuff like that. But basically it was like, that was what was powerful about that summer. Yeah. But that summer was,

that was when my marriage was falling apart. That was the other big thing that was happening for me that summer. For you, yeah. You knew Mark Maron's marriage was falling apart. And I was like, more weed. Yeah, yeah, uh-huh, okay. And then he got thrown out of that house

and he had to find a sublet way down on the lower east side. You should have hung out in Astoria. More weed. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Okay. And then he got thrown out of that house and he had to find a sublet way down on the lower You should have hung out with us instead. It was way chiller than what you were dealing with. I was trying to do comedy, doing one-man shows. Well, so that is a- I was at the Westbeth Theater. Yeah. Oh, my God.

The Westbeth. Yeah. Yeah. That became significant for me later. Really? Yeah. Because all the artists had their studios in there and still do. It still i mean the west village yes right um the west that the west village became later after i finally moved to the city in 2002 became like my spot because i don't like coolness

like i don't like i didn't like i did not want to be on the lower east side or alphabet city for me when i when i moved there i guess it was 89 the first time and then i went back in 94 yeah i remember you saying that yeah but but you know and i talk a little bit in the book about the you know what happened then but it really wasn't didn't it only put i was just a little weird historical artifact you put there. That is not true. This guy from the generation before reflects on Giuliani for two minutes. Well, I needed that. I didn't mind.

I thought I was well represented. Good. You were. I agree. So this is all just before 9-11. Yeah. And you found your place on the west side where it's not hip with artists that are... Well, no.

I mean, I went back to Philly for... So what I'm saying is that that's why it's... This is important about the book. It's not bands. I wanted to be a lawyer or something. I thought I was going to be a lawyer. I was a school kid, but I was pulled towards this sense of magic and mystery about New York City that is the idea that we were already just talking about.

And I didn't, yeah, I loved writing, but I didn't work for my school newspaper. I didn't, it wasn't like what, what it was was, it was like,

I'm, I, I was being drawn to some expression of culture that was related to my generation that I, that had not happened yet. And I did not know that that's what I was being drawn to. But I, during the next few years in the part before 9-11,

where all these bands, Interpol, Yayaya's, Strokes, and in, you know, White Stripes and other places, like around the world, all the stories that converge in the book, all of those people were feeling similar things. Like a scent, they were basically the same age as I was and feeling a kind of like i want to make something but i don't entirely know what it is and like the world is not really

receptive for this kind of this kind of vibe it's not supposed to be about urban cool right now it's not supposed to be about notions of new york what was it supposed to be about in the music industry it was supposed to be about dance music in america in you know i mean in england it definitely was about dance music or it was about like post brit pop stuff i mean and in my business it was like i mean in the writing and what became my business it was like it wasn't that exciting to imagine yourself as a rock journalist because there wasn't a lot of cool rock bands so that's right and it was sort of submerged in jam bandness too for a little while there, right? So I didn't think, oh, I'm going to be a music journalist.

I thought there's something about the way it feels to wander around Manhattan at 4 p.m. on a really hot day in the summer where everyone rich has left and that's making me feel like I'm getting somewhere and I can't really tell you why. So I went back to college and I studied and I kept in touch with Nick and a couple other people that I knew and he would come and play shows. And then I would see in Philly and we would go see him. And I had friends in Philadelphia who were starting to like want to go to shows. So it was like it was a thing to do that had nothing for years.

It was a thing to do that had nothing to do with aspiration of any kind. And that was really important. And it was also like it was like traditional rock in a way coming back. It was not necessarily art rock. Punk rock was sort of finished in a way. And I guess like I'm sort of because like some of the bands in the book, I was given like for some reason at that time when I was there in late 90s and then like I'd left by 2002. Yeah. But I was given CDs and stuff.

For some reason I have the Jonathan Fire Eater CD. Shut up. I do. That's awesome. Yeah. They were so amazing. And I listened to it and I was into it. But like what year would that have been?

How did I get that? Mid 90s. Yes. Okay. So that time's out. Yeah um they were the yeah they were around the great hope right i have my buddy john daniel was involved with music so i was sort of up to speed on something yeah okay in the 90s well that's all right i mean but like like now is it only good if you were there you know know, I mean that theoretically.

Well, the thing about looking at the book and reading through some of it is that like when I read Please Kill Me, those were before me. And that was what everybody was going to New York to find was that. That's what this is about. No, I get that. But these guys were going to find that. For sure. And you kind of write about that. Yes.

Like that's we're all looking for that thing that was like, just, it was just the remnants of it. And the people that were involved with that, you know, first wave of whatever made New York cool were just kind of droopy, gray-haired dudes

walking around in their leather pants that don't fit anymore with somebody going like, that guy used to be something. Yeah, if that, if they were even living there anymore.

But I guess I just think that that's the continuum. I mean, it's everyone in please kill me weren't weren't pulling on i see the continuum of that notion of new york identity as much much as going much further much further back than just 70s punk i mean i think sure that whole idea it's it's it's i mean this is later but it's 50s yeah i mean it's jazz it's it's fucking ellis island man it's like come to it's it's in the american identity of new york you're gonna come here and you're going to reinvent yourself and the cultural potency of that has is almost as old as you know as the city in some way. And so. But specifically in the world of the arts. Yes.

You know, what, what, you know, what came out of New York and then what sort of defined it is you had, you know, wealthy people who were willing to kick in to make shit happen. Yes. Right. Yeah. In a lot of ways. Sure. That's where you get a lot of the art from the 50s.

Yeah. Benefactors. But then, I mean, you know, for us, because this is my taste and I think yours too, like the punk, the 70s punk scene in CBGBs is just like, I mean, Please Kill Me was my total Bible. I'm obsessed with everybody in that book. I love that music. That's my stuff. I even came to that late. It's another of your specialties. material for the business card yeah yeah late to the party late to the party catastrophic thinking wrong kind of leadership skills the future doesn't

look good for any of us mark maron love mark um but you I mean, obviously there's also the whole Greenwich Village. Like, I mean, Dylan, for most people, Dylan is a touchstone for this. So the idea that New York is this place that's constantly pulling on a previous, constantly kind of co-opting and borrowing its own past self to reinvent for a new group of young people, essentially a new for them version of the same thing, however that gets articulated, that's eternal. Right. They can still find the space there. If they can still find the space there, which is the question now. But for this book, for Meet Me in the Bathroom, I see it as just the chapter in the canon of that New York cultural story. It just goes right into the bookshelf, right there, after Please Kill Me and after Madonna and before whatever comes next.

But it's a stop. It's a stop on the larger train. I think what comes next is going to be a prominent either Chinese or Russian trend in rock music. Do you have that on good authority? It seems like it. That's me speculating in a non-catastrophic way. Yeah, no, your vibe is not catastrophic at all as you say that. So soothing.

What starts to drive, when did you meet the uh the the late great mark spitz i met the late great mark spitz pretty early i because i assume he served as some sort of guide to whatever the fuck happened to you wow yeah i think he'd really like you putting it that way well what mark would say is that he taught me everything I know. Okay, there you go. So he would want me to say it that way, actually. So you're this bright-eyed kid from New Mexico through Philly who's looking for a rock fantasy, and that demon comes out of somewhere.

Yes. He's like, I can help you out slash ruin your life. And I was like, great. That's basically our story. Yeah, he talks in his memoir about how I was wearing flip-flops when he first met me. And he's like, they're not shoes. Like he was very, my New Mexico vibe was pretty, you know, I didn't wear any makeup.

I didn't like, I was still kind of like fresh scrubbed girl at that point. And I think Mark was based, Mark dated like, you know, bad, badass rock girls with like peroxide blonde hair. And he was sort of like you are entirely too clean for me basically and i was like okay but you like me so no no that's a recipe for disaster who's gonna win well it looks like you did fast forward to later when he would say things to me like you chased me you know just and i was like uh-huh can you do this thing i'm asking you to do or what was he writing for spin when you met him yeah so the way i met mark was sarah lewatin who is also a great character in the book and one of

my best friends was my roommate um in new york when i first moved there so i graduated from college and by that time it was clear that like the city's music scene was happening. And I felt I was like there to, I was inspired by all of, I was inspired. I was inspired by it. And I was suddenly,

there was something to write about. And so I then was like, I want to be a writer who writes about this. But I, I taught second grade for two years first. Cause like, you know, you can't be a writer.

Oh, you taught. That's nice. I taught at an all boys private school on the Upper East writer. Oh, you taught? That's nice. I taught at an all-boys private school on the Upper East Side. Oh. Blazers. Oh, really?

Yeah, it was a double life for a while. You were a real full-on teacher, not a sub-teacher? Oh, yeah? Miss Goodman, second grade. And how did that end? Why did that end? It's a two-year thing,

and it's like you're assistant teacher, and then maybe you kind of, the carrying on of that would have been to go get a degree in education and stay in in school and what stopped you from doing that oh you know at that point no no but he loved it he he would talk about how i would wake up in the middle of the night and i would go because i i talk in my sleep and i would go boys get in line and he would be like jesus who is this girl like this is scary she's like yeah um so now okay so now you're you're getting you're you're getting involved with the rock scene your roommate is

what is she so sarah was mark's uh like little protege at spin so i met mark before i graduated from college actually at coachella the one of the first coachella's i went out with sarah to see if we could live together we went to this rock festival together to like try it on yeah and um she introduced me to Mark who was I mean it's it's in the book their their meeting is pretty awesome like he was he didn't understand instant messenger and because I mean he's Mark and Sarah was like this sort of proto tech savvy little Jewish girl in New Jersey who is who liked his writing. It was like, hi, I'm Ultra Girl. And he's like, why is this window coming up on my computer?

Eventually she wore him down and they became pals. And so she introduced me to him and we had, you know, a sort of series of battles for about a year and a half, but then got together. And yeah, I mean, Mark was my tour guide yeah through he was writing for spin he was a hot shit writer writing cover stories about all these bands and how'd you manage not to get all fucked up i don't know i i honestly i i think it's genetic i i really do i just i don't know you didn't have the thing. I went out and drank every night like everybody else. And there was all kinds of drugs around. But I just didn't care that much about it.

Good for you. But it's not good for me. That makes it sound like something I get credit for. And it's not like I get credit. To not be compelled by that. Like to just drink and smoke some weed and just enjoy the music. You don't have to go. You don't have to go you know you don't i mean i like you don't have to die twice but it's it's it makes it sound like it's a matter of sort of will and it's

not it that's why i'm saying it's genetic it's like i don't have i'm compulsive in other ways right no i get it i get it but that's why i'm saying you're lucky i'm lucky yeah so that's how okay i'm lucky so let's talk about you know know, the bands that define this thing and the arc of this book. Because, like, I think I got my first Walkman album, like, six months ago. Okay. How are you liking it? It's okay. I think I got that guy's solo record.

Okay. And I thought that was good. I thought he was a good singer. Yeah. So the Strokes, you knew, like, you saw them become what they were. Yes. And then, like, the White Stripes, I guess, were coming in from Detroit singer. Yeah. So the Strokes, you knew, you saw them become what they were. Yes. And then the White Stripes, I guess, were coming in from Detroit occasionally.

Yeah, but I didn't, the White Stripes were not sort of first generation in New York of that. Who were the bands that were the- Strokes, Interpol, Yayas, and LCD Sound System. See, the whole LCD Sound System thing, people were like,

you gotta interview Murphy, you gotta interview him. I'm like the whole LCD sound system thing, like, you know, people are like, you got to interview Murphy, you got to interview him. I'm like, I don't know what he did. So like, I had to get, play catch up with DFA. Me too. Jonathan, the guy over, what's his name?

Galkin. Yeah. He sent me all this shit. And I like that, that Prince Horn Dance Call record. Yes, good. That first record. I love that record.

Okay. Well, you're starting well. They had to go find me that record. Like I said, do you have one of them around? They're like, it's not a good copy. You know, we have one that's been laying around here that we're using as a, as a, as a, like a mat for when you eat.

You're time castling your way into this. That's, you will love James and you'll. I listened to it. No, it's great. It's great. I watched the movie and I actually narrated a short documentary on LCD houses house you're like who the fuck is this no anyway no they gave me the script and I laid it out but like I know he's something because he meant a lot to a lot of people like I can see how they meant something to people and I can also see how they kind of like

you know kind of like well there's a there's a gap here that was once occupied by the talking heads that we should climb into. Totally. But the talking heads said that. I mean, that's what I do. I got no problem. That wasn't condescending.

Okay. I am not James, so you don't have to defend. No. I understand how music works. Tell me more. I understand. Do tell me more.

I understand that there's not a lot of new shit yes and that you just keep reinventing the old shit i think i mean yeah all right sure i think the thing that all the the the period that the book covered what the book is about is not music it's about all the things we already talked about it's about it's about new york it's the central character it's about what it feels like for this group of people at that period of time uh under to do a thing that is eternal as we just described which is to be young and to feel unseen and to get together with certain friends serendipitously that you meet who unlock something in you and to in the shadow of like a theoretical anonymity make something

beautiful that makes you feel alive i mean it's pure that's like that's art that's young people that's new york city that's rock and roll the the but it's important for the book that the context is also for my generation or these people that we're talking about it's happening in in coincidence with all these other major global events like napster which is 2000 and 9-11 which is 100 you know a huge part of this story obviously and it's about and then the reinvention of brooklyn and the commodification of brooklyn and the exporting of that via the internet the newly born internet to the world as this sort of notion of how to live like a lifestyle brand birthed by like when i interviewed james he said i was sort of trying to dip into that like the brooklyn idea and williamsburg and all this stuff and kind of

ease my way and he goes oh yeah that's all our fault it's like cool thanks you know and it's that's what so this story is about that, but it's about that through the lens of Paul Banks and Carano and yes, you know, later Jack White or the Kings of Leon guys or whatever, and then off to England and off to the killers in Vegas

and around the world, but. I had that record. We should just make a little pile of what you did have. It'll be about three albums deep. No, I've got more than I know. The Jonathan Fireeater call is pretty big. Yeah, you get points for that.

That's a big cred point for you. Yeah, and I liked it. I thought it was pretty good. I thought it was pretty good. But those bands, I mean, to answer your question, such as it is, it's like there's no, like, yeah, there's nothing new under the sun. And this is a retelling of a generational story.

I believe that people make things new. I'm not one of those people that, you know, I don't have a problem with appropriation. I don't have a problem with, you know, the evolution of music. And because, like, if you really look at at rock it's the people that really make something completely new or generally misunderstood and you know maybe years later people are like i think i get it and somewhere they're like no you don't yeah yeah but there's a core group of fans that are sort of like we're the only ones that get it yeah that bullshit i mean basically the story of the book to i mean if this is mark says this in the book i mean basically the story of the book to to i mean

if this is mark says this in the book i mean he's one of the greatest characters in it where he's basically like look i was 28 and writing for spin or whatever he was 30 something he's 30 already and writing for spin and like mark who had an encyclopedia however you say that you know encyclopedic thank you very much um sandia prep thank you um knowledge of music and film and all that stuff was sitting there in new york city loving new york city sort of but just bored and and the the thing that this that this that the the sort of beginning of the book that everyone had in common energized boredom energy everyone was bored james murphy was bored he did not know karen o karen o

was bored she did not know julian julian was bored julian didn't know paul paul of inner pole paul was bored and it was like in their own independent corners of this town at that period of time they all did something about that boredom and mark spitz or sarah or you know any of the other sort of non-musicians but journalists future bloggers a and r people like all the different sort of um i don't know contestants in this yeah in this like road show yeah all had in common that sense of what we have here right now is really not enough and we need to like build something cooler and no one else is doing it so we're going to do it so when spitz heard like i mean he says this hilariously in the book where he's just like you know when i heard the white stripes it took me a minute to figure out that

i was being saved because it was my job to write about mark mcgrath every day and like there it was boring it was bloated and boring and that that's the story. I get it. I get it. I get it. It's like, well, boredom, like to classify all those artists as bored.

I understand that. But I think that, you know, in the history of, of what happened with punk rock and the sort of like, you know, kind of strange, angry,

apathetic posturing that happened is that what it comes down to though, anybody who surfaces with any consistency may be bored, but they're workers. Oh, right. Well, that's totally, I mean, and that's also New York city. Like everyone in that town has to labor. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you gotta want it. Yeah. And you've got to keep pushing to, to, to sort of break away from the pack of garbage because in any city, like that size you know for every one maybe original band there's going to be like 20 guys just tooling through rehash especially in an era where i mean it's hard to it's hard to overstate this and it seems crazy now but i mean it really seems crazy now but like being in a rock band i love the guys in jonathan fire eater talk about this and later the walkman um they talk about how like telling your friends that you

were in a band was like oh now i have to go see you play yeah it was like really didn't electronic music kill something do we have to go through thisies? Yes. On Thursdays at seven. You know, like, you're going to make us do that. You'll buy us drinks, right? I mean, it was like the least possible cool thing to do. And it was like lame

and kind of an imposition on your friends to ask them to come see you play. Sure. So this whole, it's hysterical because relatively quickly people would be dressing

across the country and around the world like they had just been thrifting on the Lower East Side, but not when these bands formed. But that's interesting because that whole thing, you know, that thrifting thing has reinvented itself with every generation of people. Yeah. It's like now like they're thrifting 1980s clothing. And I'm like, no, I know. I know. I'm feeling that, too. It's weird because when I was in high school, we were thrifting shark skin. and I'm like no I know I know I'm feeling that too it's weird like because

when I was in high school we were thrifting shark skin yeah that's better yeah yeah and then that kind of the whole you know that rockabilly kind of blues like whatever the fuck it was yeah you're going after those suits and those skinny ties can we speak to someone about this like can we address this with the culture in general that we just nominate certain eras as as as take as as out of the loop of of going to be rediscovered some of them that shit's not even around anymore like you know fortunately for now everything is made so badly i know it'll never happen well never people will never be thrifting 2017 the h&m shit is not gonna hold up maybe we've inadvertently solved the problem. The Urban Outfitters that was stealing the fashions that were previously thrifted is not even making shit that will hold up to be thrifted. So maybe we just need a generation to cycle through that.

And in like 20 years, people will actually have to create new stuff because it literally will have all disintegrated. We're going to have to create outfits that will withstand the heat. Oh, God. I'm sorry. You're picking me right out there. I did it. I did it again. Yeah Oh, God. I'm sorry. You're picking me right out there. I did it. I did it again. Yeah, you did.

Yeah, I'm sorry. We're going to be wearing enclosed outfits of some sort. You know, New Mexico is supposed to fare relatively well. I mean, water is going to be a huge problem. Water is going to be a problem. But we have the mountains. We have aquifers, don't we? Aren't we right on an aquifer?

Oh, yeah. We give a lot of, as I understand it. No, no, wait. I think we give a lot of water to California. Motherfuckers. Yeah, well, you know, California is thirsty, yeah. We give a lot of, as I understand it. No, no, wait. I think we give a lot of water to California. So. Motherfuckers. Yeah. Well, you know, California is thirsty, man.

It's always thirsty. Okay. So like I know Eleanor Freeburger. This is what I did with the list of names. Oh, my God. No, you read all your quotes first. Come on. Of course.

Yes. Okay. Then you looked at the list of names. Yeah. And then I kind of poked around it like, you know, the chapter headings. Yes. But like, I don't know Grizzly Bear. The National I came really late to and I understand why they're good.

But I don't know that I go back to the records that much. TV on the radio. Amazing. I listened to their first and second record. I'm like, holy shit, this is amazing. Yeah, they're incredible. Yeah. The AAS, first couple records, I listened to them.

I had them. The Hives, I had that record. Okay. I remember liking it. So what's your problem? Nothing. We're just getting Vampire Weekend. Don't think I've ever heard, I had them. The Hives, I had that record. I remember liking it. So what's your problem? Nothing, we're just getting, Vampire Weekend, don't think I've ever heard them. All right, well.

Interpol, I think I got a recent record with like their back and I'm like, I missed it the first time, pretty good. Libertines, just got a Libertines record. How are you feeling about it? Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, kind of punky, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Hopefully we'll come up on something and you'll be like, you really have to go and do that. Is that you're looking for yeah well i buy a lot of records i'm like i'm in i'm in a renaissance of music appreciation i'll send you a list i mean i don't know like i have your book i know yeah well you do though actually because you can't start go on you know you moldy peaches yeah amazing did you play who's Got the Crack? I don't have it. All right, well, you should play that. Play Who's Got the Crack by the Moldy Peaches. It's just one song?

Well, that song in particular is your gateway drug for them. David Cross, comedian. I know him. I'm familiar with his work. Yes, are you? Yes. Hold steady. I like that guy.

Craig's a good guy. Yeah, Craig's pretty great, right? Yeah, he's a good talker. He's a thinker. He's good. The Killers. I like that, okay. Kings of Leon, First two records.

Incredible. Then what happened? Well, yeah. But okay. That's another alternate title for this book. Sure is. Where's the staying power? Well, they're all still making albums and touring and doing well.

Yeah. Like literally all of these people. Yeah. Well, a lot of them. Okay. So let's talk about then what happened. What did happen? Well, let's first talk about the hole that 9-11 left in the world.

And you're all over that chapter. See, that's another place that I used you. But compounding whatever that boredom was, was that horrendous existential terror, sadness, grieving. I think I talked to Spitz about that a bit, too. Yes, you did. Yeah. But a lot of this came out of that. Well, it didn't come out of it.

Right. It was positioned, as gross as that word is under the circumstances, to be heard in a different way and by more people as a result of it. Right. result of it so like you know none of these important records the first yayas record the first strokes record the first interpol record early dfa stuff none of that had been was written post 9-11 it was not a response right to that it was written before but it was about you know it was about all these themes that we were just talking about culture considered obsolete like sadness and anxiety and loud guitars as a solution to that or as an expression of that as a response to being alive right it was like oh that's old news and then you know the towers come down and new york city is

under attack and america is under attack and it makes you kind of return to the the sort of like core uh aesthetics of rebellion and that's rock and roll so what do you want to hear you want to hear jack fucking white playing guitar you want to hear uh the urgency of the first strokes record you want to you want a kind of um a manic toughness you want that i'm hip to that yeah and i think so these bands who it's not like if 9-11 hadn't happened the strokes wouldn't have broken in england they had already broken in england and kind of ignited this industry-wide like double take towards new york before 9-11 happened their album was supposed to come out like the week after 9-11 the first one in the states so it was already kicking off but what 9-11, the first one in the States. So it was already kicking off.

But what 9-11 did is a couple of things, I think, and this is argued in the book, it, it, it animated, it, it increased the number of people who were immediately feeling the need for that kind of sound. And it also turned the world's attention to New York City, culturally, in a way that it had not been, it had not had the attention of sort of like global York City culturally in a way that it had not been it had not had the attention of of sort of like global cool hounds in that way in since I don't know and also like it they were it was also got attention for perseverance yes you know everyone I mean strength uh yeah sympathy yeah you know uh you know Bruce springsteen had to go to work totally yeah bruce springsteen got the bat call it was like time to hit it you know and yeah and i think i mean all these bands talk about touring in the wake of that and being doing comedy in the wake of sure

and and but being cast as kind of um emissaries for new york and again for this idea of what new york is about that the entire world on some level was either loving or hating at that point in new ways because yeah it was it was interesting time because if you were a New Yorker and you did live there yeah you were like we're we're gonna fight yes totally yeah and we're thinking about that now and and and the other thing that it did I think for the purposes of this scene such as it is and Tunde from TV on the Radio talks about this in the book. I think he when he when he said this to me, it really kind of it was a turning point from my understanding of this. He talked about how basically he thinks 9-11 put a kind of pause button on the gentrification race that was already happening.

happening i mean the the sort of post the giuliani into bloomberg cleaning up of everything that would eventually result in the new york the slick anodyne i don't even know who lives there uh no one does it's it's saudi billionaires who have apartments right there's summer homes yeah there's summer homes that they like might go to it seems french russian it's all yeah and it's just it's well chinese i don't know what it is no No, no, it's just, it feels like it doesn't have a cultural identity. It has an architectural identity. Yes, and the identity right now is money. Money has a bleaching effect eventually on culture, I think. And right now, New York feels to me like burnt out literally like whited out like not I

don't I'm not talking about race not burnt out in the way that it was burnt out when it was bankrupt but burnt out in the way that right that that like acid has been poured on it and it's it's like bleached out you know like I don't know I mean I keep seeing you know I don't know. I mean, I keep seeing, you know, I don't know what causes this, but when a screen turns- The creative spirit has been deadened. Yeah, by capitalism, man. Yeah, by money. And by people that don't, that they don't,

like, it'd be interesting to really explore what is rooting there, you know, in the sense that, you know, it is completely antithetical to what it used to be when it was, I think the big difference was there was a time where always money there but the people that worked there could live there yes and now that's not true and what's funny and not haha funny but of course like the it's all connected to this era because that's why james saying it's our fault is

funny in again brooklyn brooklyn because it's all those people new york became the kind of place where you would invest in that kind of apartment because of all of the culture that that re-enlivened it and made it interesting and sort of buzzy and brandable in that way and now all these people who bought there on some level whether they know it or not as a result of this this latest incarnation of that new york thing live in a place where none of those people can be but this is also like in a way so boring because it's like no shit yeah that's called the cycle of art that's called like art versus commerce 101 i mean it's going to just play itself that and all that way over and over they all moved out of the city like that that generation of artists once they got money they all live here they all live here or they live in new jersey or

connecticut or brooklyn or you know a lot of them keep sort of like i love this i understand this instinct i feel this instinct they keep places in new york yeah like a little apartment on near the bowery or a little whatever and just to kind of be like no no I still got a bed there that's yeah I still have a place to rest but like does so this the the arc of this book from you know 2011 sort of ends in Brooklyn becoming the uh like the the the wealth center of hipsters totally and but also just that that did it ever have any integrity other than yes for sure but I also just think it's yes it did I will answer that but also that the idea did it ever have any integrity other than. Yes, for sure. But I also just think it's. Yes, it did.

I will answer that. But also that the idea that that would have one of the things that's hard to see from now because it's so obvious like Williamsburg, a place you could not get cabs to take you, was going to be the default locus of cool for the globe. But it's weird because there was some. You would have been laughed out of that conversation. Well, it's sort of like I lived in Astoria. I had an apartment in Astoria from 95 until 2000. Whenever my subletter was just informed by the new owner of the building that he now had the lease. Quick note. A note under the door.

But there were people like Louie had a place in Williamsburg. There were people moving into Long Island City. Yeah. So it was sort of happening, but that was because you could get space for still relatively little. Happening, exactly. It's just like, everyone moved to Williamsburg

because it was cheap. Right. And because, and to return to what Tunde is saying, I mean, it was like, you could get free, he and Dave Siddick met each other because they lived

in the same converted loft and they were passing each other's rooms enough and seeing that the same shit basically was on the floor of each other's rooms and it was sort of like shit basically was on the floor of each other's rooms. And it was sort of like, I guess we should probably talk. You know, you've got the same weird stuff in there that I have.

And like loss. And that's not like it's so easy to be like, wow, that must have been so cool. And it's like it's it's only romantic later. At the time, it's like I need to live somewhere and and and be able to paint. But that right. But that's that's... That's the story of the, I mean... Right, but that context or that framework of life

has repeated itself. Yes, exactly. Generation to generation. Totally. The loft. Yeah, the loft. That's another title that we hear. But the thing about 9-11 that Tunde was saying

that's important is that whole gentrification we're talking about in the money and the bleaching out or however you want to phrase it. Basically his theory, and i buy this now is that that was coming much sooner and 9-11 paused it because there was a sense i mean people thought no one would travel there anymore no one wanted to get on planes it was like people are leaving for a second it was like is new y York's economy going to die? So there was this really like. Are things going to get cheap in the East Village? They were. I mean, are things going to, you know, plummet here?

Is it going to be the 70s New York thing again? Because no one will, tourism will die. No one will want to live here and all that stuff. Is there going to be. Because it was terrifying. And it was like, you know, every plane that flew overhead. It was, I mean, people there were a couple of years where. And so what that created for the purposes of this book is this weird period of uncertainty that was really a gift to these bands.

Because there was a couple of years and this is my my heyday, really, of like going out and seeing shows during that time. It was 2002, 2003, maybe into into 2004 but barely where it was like it was just wild everyone was like are we gonna die okay let's party and it got druggy and it got dirty and it wasn't that expensive yet rent wasn't going up really it was sort of just like the whole the whole apparatus was trying to figure out how this was going to shake out. And it was like, cool. Let's play. Yeah.

You know, you should read, you know, book, uh, sort of answer some of those questions behind the scenes. What did you ever read that book? Securing the city. Oh my God.

Who wrote it? I, like I, I, like I recommend this book to so many people. I should have, did you secretly write it? No.

Oh, good cover. It's ominous. Yeah, it's about. It looks like the beginning of every Law and Order, old school Law and Order episode. It's by Christopher Dickey, who I believe is James Dickey's son.

And I still see him as, he shows up on shows on CNN and stuff. But it's really about how, how New York had to create its own counter. Yes. Oh, I should read this. This would be interesting. It's great.

Yeah, because it was like, we're our own city and we have to protect ourselves. Yeah. Yeah, because the federal government and the CIA and the FBI were not talking, really. Yeah. And the federal government was not really stepping up. So these guys- Clearly didn't know what was going on. Yeah.

And it was Giuliani still who was like, we've got to make our own counterterrorism force and we've got to have international- counter-terrorism force and we've got to have international Ray Kelly yeah Ray Kelly yeah dude and this guy Cohen it's great okay I'll read this like and then I'll be like I should have talked to him for the book this is my life like I wake up still at night being like damn it next edition don't even joke about that I'm never writing another oral history ever again. It's hard to organize. Oh, it made me move upstate to a cabin in the woods by myself because I had an emotional breakdown.

Like it's so hard. The organization is really a nightmare. Well, you did it and people like it. Yeah. And you know, it seems to be all in there. Yeah, you did a little perusal. Check it out. What are you talking?

What do you want from me? I think it's hilarious. I'm excited. My favorite people around the book are, like, one of my favorite pieces written about the book was by my friend Dan Ozzie. Yeah. Who hates, who does not like any of this music, basically. He's in the book talking about Conor Oberst because he loves Conor Oberst. But he basically doesn't.

He's a music nerd and a rock critic and he's just like, all of these fans suck, basically. I mean, not literally, but it's not his stuff. But the thing is, I'm not a Conor Oberst fan, but I had him in here.

Some of my best interviews are with people who I'm like, I don't get it. Well, that's why I'm saying, that's basically what I'm saying is I enjoy the fact that this isn't your world. I think that's more fun I'm saying is I enjoy the fact that this isn't your world. I think that's more fun.

Well, I can learn more. As the creator of this project to talk to someone like that than someone who's like Julian Casablancas is my favorite rock star of all time. You're like, well, you're going to love this. Yeah. Boy, do I have a book for you? Like this is writing. I take this this part of journalism seriously. Like it's not my job to write a press release for one of these bands it's my job to convince those who aren't naturally inclined to

take this as interesting that there's something there well here's what I have to say I'm happy you kids had your time okay are you gonna try to say that that was not condescending because I'm not gonna that's not sellable that was a joke joke. That was a joke. Oh, it was? It was a sarcastic condescension. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Let's shift gears to more serious shit. Okay. Then the private police state arranged by Giuliani. Well, no, just personal stuff.

I mean, I haven't talked to you really since Mark passed away. I eulogized him on this show yes thank you for doing and uh you know because i like the guy and i literally you know texted him like like a week before it happened yeah do you talk about what happened can you talk about it or no i can totally talk about i like talking about i think people are a little afraid understandably to ask me about him because it's because you guys were friends you were romantically involved on and off you were best friends he was you know on the up and up again it seemed yes 100 it's really tragic i mean the answer to what happened which is what i guess is like not known i suppose i mean i don't really know i don't i don't know anything other than he died

and then I texted you to say sorry, but then I got no information. And then, you know, you just sit there and go like, well, what happened? What that, you know, it's not, he's one of those guys where you're like, it was bound to happen, but it didn't seem like it was gonna happen that way.

Well, a lot of people, you feel like it's bound to happen and then it doesn't. I mean, Mark was, had a history obviously of drug use. and i think most people assume that he died of an overdose and that's not what happened um i mean he didn't he we don't know for sure because there was not an autopsy performed huh so there's no like was there a cause of death uh heart attack i mean cause of death unknown as far as i know really yeah so this is what you're not afraid to talk about we have no information kind of except i mean they i guess i just think like i so i was here and you know we shared custody of our dogs so mark and i were together

from for six or seven years in my 20s and then we broke up like 10 years ago and but we stayed incredibly close friends and he was my creative partner basically like that mark this book would not exist without mark he was the person on the other end of the line consistently throughout my entire career well like not i mean sometimes but like sometimes it was nitty-gritty stuff but more just all writers need like the the all people i guess but create the the sort of like who do you who's on the red phone you know he was on it was like i don't know and this isn't working and what do i do and like help and also i just need to vent it's like that was mark we were really really tight creatively and he would do the same we would talk to each other about writing every day and our dogs and so i was out here

and he had been in a period of incredibly bad depression for a couple of years um i mean probably his whole life but it had been really bad and um i was helping him and his his family was helping him you know try to get the right mental health care which never quite came together for him and uh eventually and so eventually after a couple of years like in the month before he died he was better than i'd ever seen him he may have told you that yeah he was like like running a little bit yeah he was taking better care of himself no no and he hadn't been i mean i think i know that mark lied to me about drugs over the years but he wasn't like, here's what happened the night that he died.

He went to a bar the night that I think he died. He went to a bar cause he, I mean, we don't know exactly when he died. He went to a bar on February 2nd and he had a couple of drinks, like a drink and a half with a friend and at six 30, something like that. And he came home and he walked the dogs with a friend and at 6 30 something like that and he came home

and he walked the dogs with this friend and he was inside his house with the chain on the door and the locks on the door and a bowl of pasta on his uh on his like coffee table that's how they found him and i couldn't hear i didn't hear from him the next day and i was worried and i didn't hear from him the next morning and I was worried and I didn't hear from him the next morning. And we, he didn't do that with the dog. I mean,

he was the dog thing. Mark loved those dogs more than anything in the world and wouldn't fuck around with their health and knew I was all the way out in California. I mean, he was like more neurotic about the dogs than I am. Yeah. And that's how they, his eventually I woke a bunch of people up and his super went into his

apartment and he found him just slumped over on his couch with dinner on the table. So like, as I have never done heroin, but my understanding is you don't make a big bowl. And also there was no drug paraphernalia in his house and no drugs. Oregon went. Yeah. I mean, it's an aneurysm or a heart attack or what? And he, I mean, the dogs were fine. They were in that house with him for 36 hours and they were thirsty and they were. They didn't eat the pasta? He would love that. He would have fucking loved it if Joni had been like, pardon me, asshole.

I'm hungry. And like, there's sausage in that. Like, she's too short. She couldn't get up to the, too short. Short legs. Well, you know, it's nice to know that it probably wasn't some, you know, grisly relapse. No. I mean, if it, you know, I don't know enough about, you tell me, can you like have secretly done a bunch of heroin five hours before

and then go home and make dinner and then die from doing that i mean it doesn't quite add up but i you know but it seems to me that he put himself and his body through a lot and you know up to him you know you know and if you don't know what you're like i don't know when his last physical was i mean you could he had one he i made him go and get one what what was the information all systems go huh but you don't I mean this is what the there's I mean I'm going to be dealing with Mark's death for the rest of my life it's probably not heart stuff then well I mean right like this is if you have a like blood clot if you have an aneurysm is undetectable I mean you can't like you can go people and this we don't have any control over any of this. And the illusion is that like, if you take good care of yourself, and you get physicals, and you sort of like drink your green juice, that there's a sense of, of control over warding off death. And it's just not like that. And like Mark abused the shit out of his body. But that's also no guarantee that he was going to die in that way. And you can take really good care of yourself and you can get hit by a, but I mean,

you know, or dive something undiagnosed. It's just what happened. And it's, it's horrible. It's horrible. But the one thing we do know was quick. Yeah.

And he was there with the two people in the world that he loved the most, which are those two dogs. Oh, good. Swear to God. Well, I'm sorry for your loss and Thank you. And congratulations on the book and it was nice of you to dedicate it to him, of course.

Well, my friend Imran told a really potentially off-color but actually amazing joke about this when this happened because Imran loved Mark and knew him very well and loves me and he goes, so that's what it took, huh? To get them. Because it was dedicated to my parents. And they got, this is the only thing Mark could have done. And I mean, you know, you knew him quite well

and you guys have a shared sense of real black humor and so do I. And Mark, I mean, I can hear him sometimes just being like, the biggest problem with that book was there was not enough of me in it. So I had to do something. Yeah, that's funny. Well, yeah you got to have the dark humor so you don't uh you know so the bottom doesn't fall out exactly well it's nice talking to you nice talking to you that was fun that was good that was emotional in some ways. Don't forget, if you're in L.A., you can join me and Brendan for our only L.A. book event and signing this Sunday, October 29th at 7 p.m.

Go to LiveTalksLA.org or the tour page of WTFPod.com. I can't play guitar. I'm tired and I'm a little depressed. Boomer lives! So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm

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