WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 861 - Jenna Fischer

Episode Date: November 5, 2017

Jenna Fischer came to Los Angeles when she was 22 with no contacts, no guidance, and no idea of what it meant to sink or swim in show business. Now with a successful acting career and a long-running role as the beloved Pam on The Office, Jenna wants aspiring actors to get the advice she never got. As she tells Marc, that's the main reason she wrote her new book, in addition to detailing some of her own true Hollywood stories. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley construction. Punch your ticket to kids night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 PM in rock city at Toronto rock.com. Lock the gate. All right, let's do this. How are you the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking

ears what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how are you are you okay is everything you and your people all right you all right in this era of no good news violence and horror and sadness i hope you and yours are okay as i said before and i wanted to remind you seattle don't forget you can come meet me and brendan this saturday november 11th we'll be at third place books in seward park doing a talk taking your questions and signing copies of Waiting for the Punch. That's 7 p.m. on Saturday, November 11th. Come on, Seattle. I might go get some scallops down at Joe's Fish Shack down in Pikes Market where you just sit there and get a little basket of fried scallops or fish,

a bowl of cioppino maybe. I could do that. Fuck it, man it man i'm gonna eat some bad shit wait let's do an email first if any of you are under the impression that uh i'm getting better i think i am there's a lot of good things going on but there are moments that i don't feel good about this guy didn't seem to have a problem with it. But I get emails. I get feedback sometimes. Subject line, at the book event in L.A., I had a very Marin, in quotes, interaction with you. Mark, the event in L.A. was great.

I've just started the book, and I'm really enjoying it. I've been a listener for a while now, and I've heard a lot of the podcasts this pulls from, but it's put together in a really nice way. Great work by Brendan and you. I had a pretty great interaction with you at the end of the signing. That was somehow exactly what I would expect from you in a hilarious way. See right there, I'm like, okay, what's coming at me? I was wearing a Dodgers cap and Brendan thanked me for coming out to the event during the World Series. You looked up for a second from signing a book and asked if they win tonight is it over when my girlfriend began to explain that it was only game five and that the series would be coming back to LA for game six and maybe seven you cut her off and said oh I don't care then went back to signing

a book it was the perfectvable, curmudgeon response. It's been making us laugh since Sunday. And I just wanted to let you know. Thanks, man. Andrew. I guess it was a tone thing. Because when I read that, that sounds like I was being a dick. But maybe if it was sort of like, oh, no, I don't care. If it was like that, I'll assume that it was like that.

Because if I was just sort of like, yeah, fuck it. I don't care. that i'll assume that it was like that because if i was just sort of like that fuck it i don't care that would be it would seem rude to your girlfriend from from the read but uh but yeah but maybe okay okay maybe okay i'll let it be a good experience for you i'm not gonna take that away from you did i mention jenna fisher is on the show jenna fisher from the office and she wrote a book she wrote a book called the actor's wife a survival guide uh but it was a very pleasant conversation i might say so i did a benefit for myeloma oh how do you say it myeloma i think the horrible blood cancer that peter boyle died of um ray romano has been hosting a benefit for myeloma for the last decade and change 11 years maybe this was the 11th year

and i was asked to go uh to come down and do seven to ten nice tight one for the uh for the good. Raise some money. To help myeloma. Get fixed. Cured. Treated. Managed. Handled. Corralled. Booted out of the body.

But it was interesting. Because it was me. And Hannibal Buress. Nikki Glaser was there. Rachel Feinstein. Eliza Schlesinger. They've all been on my show ray was there um fred willard robert klein i feel like i'm missing somebody but it was kind of interesting hanging out in the dressing room i walked back to the dressing

room and it was just fred willard in a very kind of bright blue suit sitting alone by himself with no refreshments or food just that was the green room it's like whoa how you doing fred seems wild in here and willard said yeah i invited a lot of people so willard's a very funny man and ro Robert Klein, who I've met many times, I've interviewed him. I've had my problems with him in the past that he didn't remember. He had no recollection of meeting me, which is fine. But Klein and Fred Willard are in their 70s, well into their 70s. And it was interesting.

It's interesting to watch men in their 70s interact. And they've known each other. They were at Second City together years ago, I believe. But they don't see each other a lot. And I realize something about men of that age when they haven't seen each other. And even if they have, but they don't see each other regularly. When they do get together, they're're really just the interaction is really a prolonged jogging of each other's memory like you know it's really they challenge each other to

remember things that that seems to be the entire interaction after a certain age i think you can cover what's happening immediately in the present it seems pretty quickly but then it's sort of like what was that guy's name from the thing joe that's right all right that's one point for you what's the question who is who is uh joe's wife oh jesus which one which wife the which are the three the second one was that Joanne? Oh, yeah. Point for me. So where do we do that show? Was that the one with me and you? And I think the other guy was there.

Where was that? Was that in Albany? Oh, Connecticut. All right. Do I lose a point now? It's just sort of fascinating and endearing that, uh, that that's really what, and it's sweet. You know, why wouldn't we want to try to remember things that were pleasurable? That's gotta be one of the great capacities of the human mind, especially in dark times is to remember good things without being too nostalgic. You want to be careful of malignant nostalgia.

You don't want to be overcome by the beauty of a past that your brain reconstructs and revises and mythologizes to keep you engaged in something pleasant, somewhere to go back to. You don't want to spend too much time there. Fortunately, my brain seems to be just rotting in terms of memory anyway. But here's the thing. So I was jotting down the note of having that realization about older men getting together. I wrote it down in my notebook.

Klein was sitting next to me, and he said with sort of a paranoiac, suspicious tone, what are you writing down? Like I was jotting down notes for a new blog post on Fred Willard and Robert Klein's interaction backstage at a cancer benefit. I said, I'm writing the idea down for a joke robert you remember he's like oh you still right oh yeah yeah it's been a while since uh yeah i guess i'm busy i guess i i don't know no problem can i finish writing it down now, Mr. Klein?

Guns are bad. They should be managed. Right? Am I right? A lot of them out there. A lot of them out there. Hey, so, look. Jenna Fisher is amazing. She's adorable.

She's great. She's great. She's memorable. Amazing part on The Office. Everybody loves her. And I was excited to talk to her. Her new book is called Actor's Life, A Survival Guide. It's got a foreword by Steve Carell.

You can pre-order it now and it comes out November 14th wherever you get books. This is me and the lovely Jenna Fisher. Talk. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence

with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel

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T's and C's apply. Again. You're the lady I know from the television that I feel familiar with because you've been on television. I feel familiar with you because I've listened to your podcast so much and also seen you on television. Yeah. Well, that gives you one extra thing.

You probably know me better than I know you. This is probably true. Yeah. Because you talk about your actual self. I do. Yeah. And you didn't on television. It's weird.

I always wonder. That's sort of a hard thing to deal with, isn't it? That people assume they know you from your character. It's weird because I always say it's like having an identical twin. And one of the twins is like really well known and famous. Right. But I'm the other twin. Right.

So people are always coming up to me saying pam and regarding me like pam and i'm like oh my gosh i'm so sorry you mean my sister but you know what's crazy john heater yeah you know from napoleon dynamite he has an identical twin brother he does yes have you met him yes can you imagine what it's like for his identity like that is real like he actually there is a guy who isn't John. Who looks just like him. Yes. And that's such a weird cult figured character. Yes.

Can you imagine the hell of his life when his brother was like blowing up? What's he been doing? John? Yeah. I don't know. I saw him at the zoo recently. We both had our kids at the zoo and we ran into each other. Wasn't he in one of the wacky big movies?

He's been. The volleyball. Was it the volleyball one or no wacky big movies? He's been. The volleyball. Was it the volleyball one or no? It was the other one. A skate one. I did Blades of Glory with him. Right, Blades of Glory. You were in that.

Yeah. And that's where you met him? Yeah. And then we kind of lost touch, but he lives out of town. He's got like, he had a family and settled kind of outside of the city a little bit. Is he one of those like unique and respectable people that made a little bit of money and they're like, I need this shit. Kind of, I think so. I think so, yeah.

I love those people. They're just like, you know, how much do I really need to not be here anymore or do this necessarily? It's kind of true. Yeah. It's like, I did it. I'm done.

You could do that. They're the people who leave Vegas early. Yeah. They're like, I'm up. I'm out of here. I'm cashing in. No, get back here. No, you can win more. Just stay.

You can have more. I just break even. I'm out. Yeah, right. You know what I mean? Yeah. You go through that horrible wave of like, I've lost everything. I've went to the ATM twice.

And then you hit that even point. You're like, I can't take it. I add my ATM fees into my gambling losses. And that causes me anxiety. How long have you had this horrible gambling problem? I had a bit of a poker obsession many years ago. You were on the show, too. Didn't you do TV?

Celebrity Poker Showdown. Yeah. You know what's crazy about that? No. Was that filmed months months after hurricane katrina yeah and it filmed in new orleans yeah so they flew us in um on a private jet the only time i've ever been on a private jet ever ever in my life to this day to this day was to fly and do celebrity poker showdown in in in new orleans flood ravaged new orleans yes so i land in a private

jet they load me into a limousine with all the other actors and comedians yeah and then they drive us through miles and miles and miles of devastation i mean i've never felt like such an asshole in my whole life i like for real like the the car ride was silent why wasn't that the no one was at all speaking. At the poker table. Why didn't you open with that? I mean, I think if you watch it, you can still see the effects of that in the game. Like, we're just like, we're so sorry.

We're so sorry. Where was it done? At a casino? Where was it done? Why was it done in New Orleans to begin with? They were probably trying to bring back business. That's a good question. Like, we're okay.

Look, we're playing cards. Yeah. I don't know. But I remember driving through and just. Yeah. It's horrible. The news couldn't show me it. I went there later than that and it was still pretty fucked up.

Just like entire strip malls. Gone. Nothing. Yeah. Abandoned car. I thought, how do you even clean this up entire strip malls. Gone. Yeah. Abandoned car. I thought, how do you even clean this up? I don't even know how you deal with this. So now, of course, I think that with Hurricane Harvey and Irma and everything.

Where'd you grow up? I grew up in, I don't have to put these on, right? No. Should I put these on? No. Okay, good. You don't have to. You seem to know how to talk into a microphone.

Okay, good. It makes me self-conscious when I hear my own voice. Does it really? Yeah. It makes me start speaking like an NPR person. Oh, really? More slowly and thoughtfully. And I don't want to do that.

Let's do that like in the middle for just like 10 minutes. Unless you like it. When we get to a particularly, maybe an emotional part or something, reflection you're having, we should use the headphones. I'll slow down. Reflection headphones. Okay. What did you think of that?

You're like, hold on. You know how I felt was very, very sensitive. Yeah. I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri. Not many people do that. I mean, not many that I've talked to. I think Ham grew up there, right? John Ham. Yeah, he did. I've been to St. Louis. I like, not many that I've talked to. I think Ham grew up there, right? Yeah, he did. I've been to St. Louis.

I like it. I went up into the Arch. You did the Arch. The rickety elevator. Years ago, I did that. Yeah, that goes up at a curve. Yeah. It's just you and two other people or something.

No, it feels like you're going to die. Yeah. They haven't figured out how to get you up there more efficiently. It's a pretty American city. Yes. Uh-huh. William Burroughs, I think, is from there. Now I'm just throwing stuff out.

Why, what, do you go back? All the time. You do? Yeah. You love it? My folks live there. Really? And my sister and her family live there.

So I go back all the time. So is it still, is it okay there? Yeah, it's okay. I mean, there's things about it that I miss and that I like. I'm always surprised at the amount of ample parking. And that's not a joke. I really mean it. Like, you can just park.

If you want to go to a restaurant, you just park at it. But is it a populated city? Is it one of those cities that got suburbanized and everyone left and now they tried to make it hip again? So they built some restaurants and people come in on weekends, maybe yeah i never go into st louis city like where the capital is and the arch and the unless you go to a ball game right you know and they did try they tried to build it up i have a friend who bought a condo and was like i'm gonna be part of the reinvention of the city and it ended up like blowing up and it didn't work out she had to sell it at a loss it didn't work but um no it is it's a suburban sprawl down there by herself yeah she was it was she was like no one else came no one has it's gonna happen i'm alone we would visit her i'd go down and visit her

it's just she had a great place empty streets kind of yeah yeah well la was like that for a while when people started moving downtown. Downtown LA. Yeah. I know. And now it seems to be happening. It seems like it is happening. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. Like more and more people. I hear that. It's actually happening. I hear that. Yeah. I hear it.

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I've visited people down there. Me too. Yeah. It seemed okay. It seems good.

But then like you go one block too far and it's super scary. Well, yeah, but that's most cities, really, right? But it's still kind of like, is LA really, was it ever meant to be a walking city? What are you going to do down there? I don't know. Yeah, that's the thing. Like New York is New York. Like, you know, you've got to walk everywhere.

It's what you do there because it's the best option or get on a subway. Yeah. And Chicago is Chicago. Exactly. Like Chicago's like that. Yeah, exactly. But down there, it's like, it's four blocks do there because it's the best option or get on a subway yeah and chicago is chicago like chicago's like that yeah exactly but down there it's like it's four blocks what do you yeah it's true we've we've we've renovated four blocks of downtown los angeles so enjoy everything's close i don't know um i don't know how to live like a grown-up but you so you're over there near me yeah i'm an'm an East Sider. Yeah. I was just looking. I like it. I drove through Glendale the other day going. I took

a shortcut to somewhere. It's great. And I was like people, this is good. This is how people live. It's the best kept secret I think. Well I think it's stigmatized. In what way? I don't know. Just Glendale. I know. Whenever time I say it I'm like people react as if they're embarrassed for me.

Yeah, it's like, oh, what happened? Oh, really? And I'm like, you guys, it's great. It is great. And there's really beautiful parts of Glendale. There are. We live within walking distance of a park and also, which is great for kids, but then there's like this little towny area that we can walk to

and you can get stuff from a bakery and coffee and i don't know i like that stuff yeah pasadena too you say pasadena like oh god but then also now it's your altadena they're like oh really what's that like it's further away yeah and it's like it's it's hit or miss up there it's like the wild west i i i just think that the east east side part of los angeles is like the best. Me too. And it's closer to highways and we can get out.

Maybe if the shit goes down, we might be able to get out. You think we can? Maybe. Go up to 2. Are you worried about it? Yeah. Hit the 2. Get on the 210 and just go.

You have an actual exit plan. You just named roads. Yeah. I'm going to go east, man. Get away from... However they're going to come, they got to come east. You can't go east, man. Get away from whatever. However they're going to come, they got to come east. You can't go in the water.

So we're on the east part. That's right. We're already inland. That's right. That's yeah. We're going to keep going. Yeah. And then I'll get bogged down somewhere.

So wait. So now St. Louis, how many, you got a sister? I have one sister. She's younger. What's she doing? She's a teacher. She's a third grade teacher. What'd your mom do? She's a teacher. She's a third grade teacher. What'd your mom do?

She was a teacher. She was an eighth grade history teacher. Really? Yes. And your dad did what? My dad was a plastics engineer. Do you know what that means? Yes.

Well, I do know a couple things. When I was a little kid, his company got hired to design a plastic Coca-Cola can. So they were going to make cans out of plastic for a while. And we had one. We had a prototype of Coke in a plastic can. All the time. All the time. It was like a big, it was like a trophy on the shelf. And when we moved, we lost it.

We lost the plastic Coke. It was such a bummer. Where'd you move to? We just moved just to another house like 10 minutes away. But somehow in the packing and unpacking process, class i don't know the prototype it went away no so like kids would come over and be like this is cool this is the only one there is yes i know and i used to freak out like when i would throw parties or something in my youth that someone was gonna fuck with it or like open it or do you know what I mean? Like, Oh my God, someone drank the plastic Coke.

Was there really Coke in it? Yeah, there was Coca-Cola in it. It was filled. It was like, but they manufactured some. Well, I'm sure maybe some other guys had them too,

but it never went on the shelves. Like it never made it out of the sort of, you know, sampling process. And that was your dad's company. He worked for that company. Yeah. And then he also you know when you buy those biscuits in the freezer and they're in that container and you pop open yeah his team invented that packaging and he was part of the patent for that i believe

but they're not in the freezer are they are they well no they're in the refrigerated section right and they're also not made out of plastic but But for whatever reason, he told me when I was little. The ones where you hit it and it pops open? Yeah. Those are so exciting. I know, right? And so we always had a lot of biscuits growing up. I remember that also.

So we had a lot of biscuits and a plastic can filled with Coke. It was just one of those things where you'd see the commercial for the pop. I think it was a Pillsbury product, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And just to see it go pop. You wanted that. You wanted it.

You want to do it when you get it home, too. Yeah. It's exciting. If it duds, you're pissed. Like if you don't hit it quite right, but it opens enough for it not to pop, but to fuck it up. Yeah. You have to stab it with a knife or something.

Yeah. It's a bummer. Yeah. Yeah. And then you peel out the biscuits. Those biscuits are okay. Yeah. So you grew up with those, huh? Yep. Had a lot of those. Yeah. It's a bummer. Yeah. Yeah. And then you peel out the biscuits. Those biscuits are okay. Yeah. So you grew up with those, huh?

Yep. Had a lot of those. With the built-in butter. Yeah. It's already buttery inside. Already buttered for you. But you will add more butter after it's baked as well. Sure.

Yeah. When did you start this need to be looked at as a performer? It's so weird because I think that if you met me and my sister or if you saw us growing up, everyone would think she would be the performer. I like the pictures in your book. Oh, yeah. They're kind of funny.

Yeah, as the photos in the book will show you, I was often in the background of things. I kind of grew up in the background. You were a kid, did you? Yeah, a little. But she's younger than you. How did you manage to get in the background of a younger sibling? I was just more of an introvert.

I was just more of like, just more cerebral, more of a thinker, just like in my head way more. And she was more presentational and doing dances for the relatives at Christmas. But in a happy way you were thinking? No. thinky me no i mean and just always very um for my whole life if i'm not sort of like tortured by figuring out things yeah then i'm i don't know who i am like that's that's my default i mean in in high school everyone else is like watching soap operas in the senior lounge and i'm pointing out the subliminal messaging and advertising that's keeping women down oh yeah you know so it's like that's like i'm just worried

about the whole world yeah and everything all the time right so so a lot of people are like no i don't know if we don't invite her i mean i had my close friend but i wasn't no i wasn't like a fun i wasn't like a fun time gal. No? I was more serious. So you didn't hang out with the cool kids? I didn't, but my school didn't totally have cool kids. Oh, really? I went to an all-girls high school. Oh, my God.

It was amazing. Good. It changed my life. Really? Yes, absolutely. Just not to be pestered? You know what it was? I had gone to public school my whole life.

Before high school. Before high school. Yeah. Went to the junior high, hated it. Was definitely not popular. There were definitely cool kids and I was not one of them. Were you bullied? No, I was invisible. Like no one knows they went to school with me.

Why? No one knows. But you're so, you know, you seem. Quiet. Quiet. thinking about stuff just trying to stay out of everybody's way so you didn't want to be cool didn't want to be inert like you don't know i'm there you wanted to be invisible kind of yeah just don't notice me yeah it was my goal and then i got to high school and i changed high yeah i changed high schools because my mom was this eighth grade history teacher at a Catholic school. And I became friends with some of the girls in that class, her eighth grade class when I was in eighth grade.

And they were all going to this one Catholic girl school in St. Louis called Narex Hall. And I said, I want to go to school with them. I want them to be my friends. So I went and I toured and they set up. My parents said, OK, we'd love it. friends so i went and i toured and they set up my parents said okay we'd love it and then i remember sitting in my freshman class and um they like they made an announcement that we're going to have elections for student government and i thought to myself oh my god a girl is going to be president of the class because it's all we have like at the public schools a boy was president a girl was vice president a boy was

treasurer a girl was secretary it was just how it was and that just like it exploded my mind and then also at my school like being smart and caring about things and caring about the world and doing well in school that made you cool there was like a competition to raise your hand in class and have the right answer. So we weren't competing for boys or boys attention or what we were wearing because we all wore uniforms. It really was like this. Life changing. Yes.

And by the way, like this person who'd been inside of me thinking all this time could now extrovert. Right. So I extroverted in high school. Oh, thank God. And I loved it. For the uniforms in the all-girls school. Loved it.

Yeah. It was great. Huh. Well, yeah, I guess it like, you know, boys and it doesn't, like public schools with boys and girls can be brutal on both sides. Yeah. I think it's worse for girls. It all stifling no no i mean like girls are going to give you shit and boys are going to give you like if you're a vulnerable

person or sensitive person or different you're going to get it from just the nature of that culture yeah right whereas everybody in a all-girls school where you have to wear a uniform and your and education is put at a premium, it's great. Just gets all that other shit out of the way. Completely. Oh. And I had my little group of friends.

Lifesaver. Lifesaver. I had this cool group of friends. There were four of us. Two of the girls were like way more wild and like smoked cigarettes and smoked pot and snuck out of their house and stuff. And then the other girl

who was kind of my best friends, we were like two sets of best friends who were then best friends. She was like me. She was like into like listening to Edie Burkell and saving the environment. And that wasn't me. But we were like this sort of like cerebral follow the rules girls. And then we had like this other couple of girls who were like the break the rules girls yeah and then we had like these other this other couple of girls who were like the break the rules girls so what in it was a nice balance but but what did you like you

know what'd you do i did i did did you say that oh yeah yeah i mean it was like so cool like what do you mean like you don't have a curfew they didn't have a curfew ellen and i had curfews you know but like they didn't they didn't have a curfew. What about the boys? Oh, they dated boys. They had boyfriends. I didn't have a boyfriend until my senior year. So you were living vicariously through these. Completely. Tell us stories.

Tell me about losing your virginity. What was it like? All of that. They did that when you were in high school? They did, yeah. Yeah. We were just late to the party. And was that a good story?

Their stories? Yeah. No, no. It was a bad. And was that a good story? Their stories? Yeah. No. No. It was a bad, it was like a huge it was like the, any sex talk my parent could have had with me could not compare to like your girlfriend telling you

trust me, don't do it. Just don't do it. Waved it out. Yeah. Oh, that's sad. But I guess that's the way it is. Did those friendships hold up? I'm still friends with them. Yeah. With the wild girls?

With the wild girls who have now, of course, settled down and have families and children and all these things. Back in St. Louis, all three of those gals still live in St. Louis. And I reconnected with them at our 10-year high school reunion. And because at college, we all went to different places. We kind of lost touch. Yeah. But we all saw each other at our 10-year reunion and we've stayed in touch ever since.

The 10-year reunion? Yeah, the 10-year. So you weren't even a big star then? No. I had not been on The Office for my 10-year. That is a bold move to go back as somebody who wants to be an actress As a struggling actress in LA. To go back to your 10-year. I couldn't do it.

No? No. I didn't go back until at least I had a couple credits. Yeah, I went back. I couldn't do it. No? No. I didn't go back until at least I had a couple credits. Yeah, I went back. I haven't been to one since. So I guess I'm that person. Yeah, I guess you are now. Like, well, now I've made it.

Yeah. They know who I am. I don't have time. No, I think I went back for a 25. But there was no way I was going to 10. No.

No, couldn't field the questions. So you're doing comedy're doing comedy and what is that are you on tv i'm not i'm not on tv i wasn't gonna i couldn't do it yeah no i get it i get it because it's like well well what have you done yeah what have i seen you in well i don't know did you come to an experimental theater performance for two nights in LA. But then it lets them be condescending. But it doesn't sound like, you know,

it sounds like you would have had a good time anyways because that high school seemed like everybody, well, you had a lot of friends there. Yeah, everybody was pretty cool. Yeah, but like,

just a regular, like, high school to go back to that and to allow the people that never left to be, to have a right to condescend.

Yeah. You're like, well, good call on the LA thing, huh? Oh a right to condescend. Yeah. You're like, well, good, good call on the LA thing, huh? Oh, right. Yeah. So I didn't do it. I get it. Yeah.

So tell me about this thing because like this book, and it's interesting that your sister's a teacher and your mom's a teacher because it seems that you have teacher in you. Yeah. My mom will be so flattered by that. No, but I mean, I feel that. It seems like that, like this book, like outside i mean i feel that it seems like that like this book like outside like it's it doesn't seem like you're like i'm gonna make some money on a bestseller yeah it's sort of like i want to help some some some dreamers out yeah i've i've made zero dollars

so far i did not take an advance on the book i i just want to i just want you're correct that I have not been doing it for money I want to be practical and temper people's you know ridiculous dreams yeah you know what it is I I wanted to be an actress

and I thought that if I went to college and I got training and then I showed up in LA, it would happen. I was like so naive. I was like, and all I needed to do was network. I just had to find these-

You knew that much. I had to find these parties. Yeah. These fictitious parties, mythical parties. And I would meet people who would then cast me in things. Well, what was the process of getting to that?

Because there's pictures and you write about being doing stuff in high school. Yeah. These little productions. But what was the decision? Was it when you first auditioned, were you like fraught with fear and you didn't know what you were, you know, like it was like in high school and stuff? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, how did it? You know, in my high school, we only did these big one. Every year we did a big musical and I can't sing. So you could just tuck away. Yeah. I could just be in the dancing chorus and sew costumes and like hang out and wait for my turn to dance. Right.

You know, and like chit chat. And that's exactly what you do, right? You just sit there and like, here it yeah don't fuck it up you've got you've got one thing to do i'm gonna dance my heart out um yeah yeah no so uh my senior year they decided to do a stage play for some reason and i finally got to audition and i got cast as one of the four leads in it this mad women of shio it's this oldie timey comedy um about costumes costume oh yeah hats with feathers and corsets and things when i was in high school we did uh we did in junior high i think we did meet me in st louis yes same costumes oh yeah same So what is that time period? I called it old timey.

Maybe it was. The 20s? What is that? I don't know. Maybe even a little earlier. Somewhere around there. Turn of the century. Yes. And so I got to be in that and that was like the first real acting role that I had

before going off to college. And when I went to college, I didn't major in theater at first. But I always wanted to go to LA. I begged my parents to let me go to LA out of high school. I begged them to take me to this like weekend fair in St. Louis where you supposedly met Hollywood agents. When you were in high school. When I was in high school and that they would sign me.

And you had done this one play. I'd done one play. And I just was like, but I don't want to wait. I don't want to go to college. How did you know about this? You just brought it. It was like in the paper or something,

you know, I had not remembered that production of meet me in St. Louis in a long time. I don't think I've talked about it. Do you have pictures? I used to have pictures. I had a, I had a big chest like a

mustache with chops i was the boss three-piece suit pocket watch do you have to sing did you have a song no it wasn't a musical to meet me in st louis oh what well i guess they made a musical movie of it they did they did the original meet me in st louis is it wasn't it was a play yeah and uh but the reason i remembered is there's at some point where someone throws water in my face. And I come back out. I'm supposed to go out and I get hit with water. And then I come back out on set wet. And most of my mustache had come off.

And I come back outside not knowing that. And they're laughing backstage because it had stuck to the door. I just remember that. How'd you deal with that? Was that like, did that torture you? Or was it like, did it become some of the lore of the theater then? Remember when Mark's mustache stuck to the door? Well, the weird thing is-

And everyone talked about it at the cast party afterwards? I don't know. This was like junior high. We didn't have a theater at that school. Somebody, a teacher must have decided to have some sort of theater thing, you know, to do a play. Yeah. Because I remember we just did it in the gym and set it up.

And it was very young. I didn't do it in high school. Oh. So, like, it didn't, there was no infrastructure. There was no cultural or community infrastructure around the theater kids or anything. It was just, it happened in a vacuum. Right. So no.

Okay. I don't, I, it didn't, it didn't make any lore. It didn't make any lore. But I would like to know where those pictures are. Yeah. Because somebody took big black and white pictures. I think the woman who was in charge of the show, they were in the yearbook. Anyways.

You have to track them down. I'm sorry. This kind of jarred something in my memory and I'm, and I don't need to talk about me. I enjoyed that story. That brought me back to the times of, you know, things going wrong on set in high school and just how dramatic it became. And then we would just like, you're just like drinking beer at the cast party afterwards. Everyone's like, I don't know. I just screwed it up.

And I feel like everybody could see, you know, and then that person's like crying and you're like it's okay we have tomorrow night it's gonna be all right i'm like no one noticed yeah in high school yeah if something goes wrong or or a wardrobe thing or like in any theater circle yeah theater in college it's all the same it's so narcissistic it's wonderful it's great and then that when you're in college and you, like, I went to plays in college and I did stage troupe in college, which was the non-acting school acting thing. Uh-huh. But like when you go to the plays where people are taking real risks. Yeah.

Maybe a little nudity. Oh, yeah. And just sort of like, and it's college and you can see that they're not really comfortable with this. This is not. My favorite are college productions where like someone has to play the old man. And they've done like the Ben Nye makeup shading from their Ben Nye makeup kit that they learned in their makeup class. And they're like doing all the physicality of old and their voices changed.

And, you know, I just love it it's so there's talk about commitment like you don't i i mean i know daniel day lewis in lincoln that is the type of commitment but i'm sorry you show me a college kid playing an old man and i'll show you commitment there's some guys that's some real shit it is some real shit yeah i remember some guy did another some in that same high school someone someone did Craps Last Tapes. Is that the name of the book? Oh, yeah. And the guy did full on like, you know, little big man makeup.

Yeah. Like they figured out how to put the glue on so it crunches up and everything. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, hello. I'm very old. Yeah.

Yeah. Could you imagine? I would never do that today. Like that would be, that's terrifying. To what? To, I don very old. Yeah. Could you imagine? I would never do that today. Like that would be, that's terrifying. To what? To, I don't know, to like try to transform into an old person using like makeup shading and my body language. But would you let somebody make you an old person?

Yeah, I've done that where they put all the latex on you and stuff. You did? Yeah, I didn't like it. I felt very claustrophobic. For which movie? That was in the movie Walk Hard. Oh, right. I had to be old Darlene and I just spent three days.

And I kept telling myself that it would be okay because time passes and this will end. That Wednesday at seven o'clock will happen because it must happen. And then I will not have to have this on my face anymore. Like I had to like really talk myself down from it. That's practical self-parenting. I was like really like, and i didn't like talking to people like i felt it was just very yeah i did not like it so okay so you you go to the high school they take you to the big agency signing they don't take me they refuse my parents refuse to take me to be signed by a big hollywood agent they won't do it apparently they knew that it was some sort of money-making scheme.

It was a racket? I'm sure. Yeah. Yes. So, they told me that I could move to Los Angeles, but I had to go to college. They said, you have to go to college. Which means, like, we're hoping that she'll get that out of her system during college. You know, I don't think so.

I think that they were very supportive, but, and I don't know what their thinking was, you need something to fall back on. So they would say things like, why don't you become a newscaster? As if being on, just being on camera is what I mean. Like local TV? Yeah, just be a newscaster. Go talk to your father who knows what's his name at the station. Yeah, just do that.

Which is not acting, it's journalism. It's like a complete other profession. Wow, let. Just do that. Which is not acting. It's journalism. It's like a complete other profession. Let's not go crazy. Yeah. You know, it's reporting. It's broadcasting. It's broadcasting.

Yeah. So I went and I got a minor in journalism. And I. So you're actually that stuck in your craw? You're like, maybe I will. I was like, I guess. I mean, I don't know. And then I majored in history at first.

Where? What college? Truman State University. What is that? It's a tiny liberal arts school in Missouri. Yeah. I toured a bunch of schools and I just liked Kirksville, the little town that Truman was in. I kind of just, I don't know, I wanted to live on my own after the mandatory year in the dorms and it just felt safe and small and close to home, but far from home. And it just was. How far away was it?

Three and a half hours. Oh, yeah. Okay. So if I wanted to go home on a weekend, I could. But I also like. Didn't have. It wasn't too close. Yeah.

They couldn't keep coming up. Correct. Yeah. So it was good. Far enough to be. Separation without separation. A pain in the ass. Yeah.

And it was fine. And it was good far enough separation without separation yeah um and it was fine and it was it was great and then by my junior year i became a full-time theater major yeah yeah because i just was always doing the theater i also realized as i was studying um because i was a pre-law history major i realized as i was like having to write a paper about something in the library before computers and you had to actually go to a library. I realized I liked acting like a lawyer and pretending to be a lawyer, but I did not like researching things. You didn't like the law. I didn't actually like the law. Yeah. No.

Yeah. So I gave it up. You gave up the law. Yeah. I like pretending like I was in a montage of a person studying and writing a paper but i didn't like actually want to do that coffee yeah exactly like i would set it up like a little scene look at me at the library my studying montage so when he started studying acting full-on how much of what you learned there is what all you needed to know?

Like what was the acting program at Truman? Truman State University. It was it was a lot of reading plays. So it was a lot of like that kind of like academic work. So I really am happy for that. I'm happy that when I'm when I'm on a set, I'm I know who Chekhov is. And I read all for that. I'm happy that when I'm on a set, I know who Chekhov is and I read all those plays and I know contemporary American playwrights and I like that knowledge. I mean, we had to read Greek tragedies and all those sorts of things. So I'm happy for that. And then acting wise, we mostly studied the Stanislavski method. That was like the most. Who was the teacher? I had two teachers,

Lee Orchard and John Schmore. They both teach at different schools now. And then our tech professor was this guy, Ron Rybkowski, who's still there. Yeah. And I never was cast in any lead roles of any main stage shows in college,

except for my last summer, Ron Rybkowski, in any lead roles of any main stage shows in college. Except for my last summer, Ron Rybkowski, the tech teacher, directed Crimes of the Heart, and he cast me as like the boozy, slutty sister Meg. Yeah. And that was awesome. Yeah.

But besides that, I was all about like the student productions and the lab productions and like the sidecar productions which is probably better for learning it's better for being an actual working actor because that's what working actors do they create their own shit they make their own shit they have to band together with other people without the support of the department paying for anything and make it happen and so that was that was the best training for actually being an actor. And these, like, what is it, what kind of tools as the actual craft goes,

did you learn there that you still engage with? I don't know. Really? I mean. That's honest. I mean, because I've kind of moved away from the Stanislavski method, which involves kind of pouring over your script and writing out intentions for every line.

Like on this line, my intention is to abuse. And on this line, my intention is to embarrass. You know, like I just like that was what my studying was, was to like create intentions for every thing. But I assume you're supposed to. And create beats. Creating beats. i do that still sure for long scripts and and actually i've done some plays making choices making choices sure yeah and some of the background work i i still have this form that they gave me in college about

how to break down a character oh yeah yeah it's like a five page fill in the blank form is it in the book no because it's from a book and i didn't know if i could reprint it but it's great it's like give me your 10 given circumstances which are things that you've learned from the script that you know about your character oh that's a good idea and um it could be anything that is said about you or said to you but that was another thing like like the difference between information that said about you, but that your character didn't hear, like that that's a distinction. So like how people feel about you, like that you're a crook, but do you know they think you're a crook?

Right. Because you would play it differently if they know or don't know. Right. So some of that way of breaking down a script or a character, I still keep with me. So that little five page thing, that stuff. I still i still yeah and it's like so degraded now i should really have that rick retyped for me you can do that you could even do maybe make a little project for yourself i know retype it i should because it's just like photocopy after photocopy after photocopy of this form yeah and i only have a hard copy of it huh i have one blank hard copy

that i can still make a photocopy of and then fill that's the thing that survived you don't know what book it comes from i think it came from this little i think it came from this little blue hardcover stanislavski method book but i can't find the book either that's wild and i don't know what the book is called but there's other things like moment before like so that was a big thing for my study like before you enter a room what were you doing that's a good one make a decision about it like it could be literally anything if the script doesn't tell you what your moment before is what is your moment before so you don't so you enter the room like nobody everybody has a moment before right in their life before they

enter a meeting or a moment or whatever and so like it just makes it that moment richer. So what do you do once you make that decision? Like I was just in the bathroom. When you walk in, you wipe your hands on your pants as you're entering. I don't know. Something. Yeah. It informs something.

I like that. Yeah. I find some of those exercises are just about squashing the vulnerability and anxiety of acting. Huh. Of just, it's almost like a security blanket, like something to hold on to. You've worked with a lot of great actors and you've worked, you know, that John C. Reilly in Walk Hard, right? Yeah.

And he's like an interesting actor. Do you learn from other actors? I learned so much from John C. Reilly. Yeah. Yeah. Both like sort of on set and off set kind of stuff because i was pretty new and walk hard was my first lead role in like a studio movie yeah yeah um like i had done blades of glory before that but i had such a small role

and um so but walk hard was like a really big deal yeah walk Hard was like the studio hired a physical trainer for me. They sent me to voice lessons. Yeah, yeah. Like, it was like I had like 90 costumes. Yeah. I had to be made up into old age makeup.

Yeah, yeah. Like it was this big, huge undertaking. Yeah. But no, working with John C. Reilly, he's one of my favorite people that I've ever worked with.

And I did another movie with him, a little movie called The Promotion that we filmed before Walk Hard. So you guys knew guys in chicago yes and we didn't really have any scenes together um but we were in chicago yeah and just kind of hanging out with fred armisen and he was like hey i'm putting together this movie walk hard and you should come read for it and then i originally when i read the script I assumed they wanted me to come in for the Kristen Wiig role. The sort of like, you know, put upon first wife.

Yeah. And so that's what I prepared. And then they called and said, oh, no, no, that's already been cast. Kristen Wiig is doing that role. And I'm like, well, you can't mean the like lead hot, like sexy girl. No one ever cast me as that. They're like, no, just come in and read. Just see. like sexy girl no one ever casts me as that they're like no just come in and read just see yeah and i went in and and for the audition judd apatow was there and john c reilly was there and

i knew john and we had to do this one kind of like sexy scene as the audition and i remember like i feel like i like got on john's lap and like licked his face or something something never happens in auditions but you think always happens in auditions, right? And I was so glad that I'd done that other movie with him and been to dinner with him. He felt friendly to me and safe. So I really was able to go for it. And then I got the part.

I was so excited. But then on set, he taught me a lot about on set movie etiquette, things that i didn't really know before yeah like they used to make me up and i thought it was my job to just go sit in my trailer all day um like and wait to be called yeah and john said he got me aside and he was like jenna why are you sitting in your trailer all the time and i'm like well i thought that was what i was supposed to do like i'm waiting like i'm just like waiting for someone to tell me to come to the set. And it's my turn.

He's like, no, no. He's like, you sit on set. You sit on set in a director's chair at Video Village. You like chit chat. And you're up there. You're like super ready to go all the time. He's like, that's what you want to be doing. Okay.

And I was like, oh, okay. And this was sort of like a third of the way through the movie. And it completely changed my experience after I did that that but is that protocol or is that just his way because like i would imagine on some sets you know if you're that actor eventually maybe the directors would be like why is she saying well he was even like bring a book come sit in a chair i always sit on set i hate trails yeah sit on set was what he was basically saying. Yeah. I like sitting on set. Yeah. Yeah.

Even like sometimes I'll go sit even when people are on lunch. It's just a dark set. Just sit on the set while everybody's gone? Yeah. That actually sounds really peaceful. It's nice. Yeah. It's sort of lovely.

Yeah. And then it comes to life like right at lunch. Oh my gosh. Right after lunch, it's all of a sudden like cranes or things are waking up. That sounds like an old timey movie. It's true though. To bring back old timey. I know.

That's so romantic. No matter on what set it is, like at lunch, like everyone's gone. Yeah. All the cameras are just like. And then like. All of a sudden they're like. Yeah. It's all of a sudden one or two people show up and then it's like.

Yeah. Cranks up. The lights crank up. Oh my gosh. It's like a type of sunrise. It is. Yeah. But OK.

Outside of telling you to, you know, hang out at Video Village and be on set, not in your trailer. What else did you learn from John? Well, he was just like, I don't want to call him a workaholic because I feel like that has a negative connotation. But like, he just was always prepared. He was up for anything. He was ready for anything.

He was ready for anything. And he took his job seriously, but not too seriously. Like I just thought he was a great model for how to approach work. He was flexible, but he was also rigid when he needed to be. He was just this really great mentor. And the other thing he told me was he told me like near the end of the movie, he was like, Jennana this is not real life and i was like what do you mean yes it is all these people are my new best friends and we're gonna keep in touch and he was like i just it was like without saying it he was like i love you we had a great time we have a

wonderful rapport i'm never gonna see you again it doesn't mean anything don't get your feelings hurt and also none of these people are your friends um and you're never going to see you again it doesn't mean anything don't get your feelings hurt and also none of these people are your friends um and you're never going to see any of them again either and he was like this is a moment in time this is summer camp because i think he could see that i was like new and naive and um you're still having sort of that kind of college theater thing yeah exactly yeah and trading numbers can't wait to get together for dinner in a couple weeks. Yeah. You know, and it's true. You don't see any of the people again. Nobody is friends again. And it's over.

It's three months of your life and then that's it. But he was also saying, he's like, so you need to build something real outside of this. Right. And he's like, I do. I have a family. I live outside of the business. Yeah. And you don't hear from me until I come on set.

And I remember Jack Black saying the same thing once. I heard an interview with him and he sort of said, when I'm on set, I'm on. And when I'm off, set them off. And I think it's actually really good advice. Right. Yeah. I mean, it is kind of the intensity of a production is sort of wild. Yeah. And then that last day, you still get all of that stuff that you got in college at cast parties and everything, but you really go your different ways. And then maybe you see craft services. Yeah.

On another production. Yeah. Or you see the, you know, an AD or grip or whatever, like, oh, we worked here or, you know, yeah. Yeah. How you been? Like, but that's it, isn't it? I just found out that the sound guys who worked on The Office

are going to work on my new show that I'm doing. And I like started to cry. I was so excited. I was like, what? Nick and Brian? Nick and Brian, oh my God. I was like so excited. But you were with those guys for a decade.

For nine years, yeah. But yeah, like that, I thought that it actually is really good advice because the industry and working on sets is very intoxicating. for nine years yeah but yeah like that i thought that it actually is really good advice because the the industry and working on sets is very intoxicating and you can get like kind of addicted to it i think and um everyone's like good looking and charming and charismatic and funny and smart and amazing and it's incredible i mean it, it's like a complete fantasy world. Yeah, but there's also sort of like, oh, that guy. You know, there's always going to be one or two of those.

Well, yeah, that's true. That's definitely true. But yeah, I think that's what he was warning me against. He was like, you seem like a moth that wants to fly really close to the flame and just don't get burned out. Oh, oh,

that's nice. Yeah. And also don't get emotionally attached to the romance of it. Yeah. Don't, don't draw,

like, this is not your food. I'm sure you have friends. I do. I have a lot of friends outside the industry. No, but I'm sure you have friends

in the industry. You can tell me you don't talk to Grzynski or whatever. I do. I do. I have a lot of friends outside the industry. No, but I'm sure you have friends in the industry. You don't talk to Grzynski or whatever. I do. I do. Actually, that's different.

I think if you spend a long period of time on a television show, it's like, I always wondered how did the bachelors and bachelorettes become such good friends

on that show? Yeah. And it's like, well, they're locked in a house together. And that's what being on a TV show is like. We're locked in that room 12, 14 hours a day for nine years.

We're legit friends. Yeah. And I see all those people. Those are some of my best friends. Really? Even BJ Novak? I see BJ Novak. I love BJ.

Yeah. We have dinner sometimes. Okay, good. It's been a few years. Oh, it's been a few years. It's been a few. But that's how it is. But we text.

You know, that's like my whole, all my friendships are texting friendships and like voicemail friendships at this point. I used him as a punchline in like three seasons of my show. You did? Yeah. That's okay. He said something very funny to me. Because it's not good hearted, really.

I was very snotty to BJ Novak. You know what I mean? He can take it. He can. He can take it. He can. He can take it. Harvard taught him how to take it. That's right. Exactly.

Yeah. He'll be fine. Exactly. He'll be more than fine. He will. He came up to me once after the first season where I used him as a joke. And he looked at me and he's like, you know, we're cosmically connected now. And I'm like, I know.

I did that. Forever. For as long as anybody watches that show. All right. So now the teaching part of the book, like it felt to me like when I was looking through it, that like, you know, you express a certain amount of vulnerability in that you show, you know, the sort of weird, not so quiet desperation. Of being an actor?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, you know, like, but exposing that. Like, because when you do shitty headshots and you put them out in the world, you don't know that at first. When I'm taking those headshots, I think they're fantastic. I send them to many agents and casting directors. It was not until I compiled them for the book that I realized I had worn overalls, the same pair of overalls,

in three of my headshots spanning five years. What is that? What's wrong with me? Seriously. I don't know. But I look at so many of my clothing choices early on where I'm like, what was I doing on television like that? Horrible. Like I do Conan and stuff. And I was talking to somebody else. A guy who I just met through some other people who lived in my neighborhood in Queens said he was a clothing designer. And I let him design a shirt and pants for me.

Great choice. That I wore on Conan for the first time. And I'm like, That's so nice of you. What were you doing? But what were you doing in overalls for five years? It's what I wore. I thought in a headshot wear your favorite outfit. Clearly

overalls were my favorite outfit. I had a really, like a lumberjack period. But did you get work off of those headshots? No! Of course I didn't get any work. And of course I'm blaming my agent or my non-existent agent. I got, no, no, no. But no, the idea behind the book and when you talk about it being teaching is just,

I came out to LA and I thought I knew what I was supposed to do with my training. And I didn't know at all. Which was what? You were just going to be chosen. Yes. Wait to be chosen. So when you went to college and you did this, did you have some sort of primer? Did somebody hip you to the business?

Was there a class? No. That said how it was supposed to go? So what were you basing that on? I don't know. On stories I'd heard about Pam Anderson being at a baseball game and then the camera shoot, you know, goes over to her on the Jumbotron and then a modeling agent gives her a card. It's Pam Anderson.

Exactly. She's a freak of nature. I know. But then, you know, some other thing like, oh, this person did some stand up and then this producer was like, I must have you. And here's a TV show. So isn't it weird though? You're like, what?

You believe that? And that first time you drive into L.A. and you're like, I must have you. And here's a TV show. Isn't it weird though? You're like, what? You believe that? And that first time you drive into LA and you're like, where's the city? Oh, there's that too. Like, am I in it? Am I here yet? I guess I'm here. I lived here for like a year before I left. Like I came here for a year or so and I left and came back years later.

But I was like in Culver City. Oh yeah. You weren't like. Living in like a, in a roommate situation. left and came back years later but i was like in culver city oh yeah you weren't like living in like a in a roommate situation just sort of like what how do i get in yeah you drive by paramount what is it what's in there yeah how do i get in there so the idea is here's everything i learned during my just like five years of complete and utter just depression. Right.

But you talk about interesting, like, you know, fairly specific stuff, doing extra work, Taft Hartley. I had to be Taft Hartley. And I still don't know what it is. I know. Right. I sort of say that in the book. I'm like, listen, here's a way to get into SAG.

Good luck. But do they still do it? You got it. Yeah. You still Taft Hartley. You can get Taft Hartley. All that means is like you don't have to pay your dues on your first job. Yeah, it means that you got a job and you weren't in the union, but they needed you specifically. So they made an exception and put you in.

And usually that's like somebody, you know, a friend gets you a little gig, maybe one line that might not even make it into the movie or the TV show. So you can get in the union. Correct. Yeah. So that's still like if you're just someone in St. Louis, you know, you're going to need that friend. But that's the thing. So I come to L.A. like looking for that way of getting in the union.

But that's so rare. It's like winning the lottery. Right. So. So, yeah, I try to talk a lot about all the things i learned and tell all of my embarrassing funny stories but also pack the book with like real practical information like that too for like aspiring actors it's just the horror of like you know like i never i didn't do that i did it i was always a comic so and i spared myself what you guys go through. I don't know how one does that.

It just goes out on auditions. How do you go out on stage and do comedy? That is harder. But that was my life. You know, like I've been doing that. You know, that was all I ever wanted to do. It was genetically inclined somehow. Like I didn't think I had a choice.

But that was my chosen avenue. I didn't get in it to be an actor. I got in it to be a comic. Yeah. And whatever. But you know the course of it. You an actor. I got in it to be a comic and whatever, but you know the course of it. After you do it for a while, you're like, well, you want to get your own show or all that stuff. But when I just go out on auditions before,

no one knew me for years up until six years ago. Most people still don't know me, but you go to those auditions and sometimes you'd walk down hallways that were just like, there were just stacks of headshots. Yeah. All along the hallway. And you're just like,

oh my God. Yeah. All these people think it's going to happen. It's true. It's true. And to me, that scene, like going into a casting director's office

and seeing stacks of hundreds of headshots was too much for me to bear. I'm like, this ain't my path. I can't do this. I can't do that. See, that's interesting because when you talk about that, like I just, I feel like I never decided to be an actor. It was just like what I was going to be. That's how I felt about comedy. Yeah.

So I just had to like figure that out. I had to like conquer that part of, I had to audition. I had to figure out how to do all that. Yeah. For me, it was like, I had to figure out how to be myself. Like the job for me was like, how do I become singular? Not how do I, you know, fit into whatever they're looking for here in this hallway. Yes. Right. Right. But that's hard. do I you know fit into whatever they're looking for here in this hallway yes right right but

that's hard and you've talked about that before about finding your comedic voice your your authentic sure authenticity yeah there's in your comedy there's no book for that you know that's just years and trial and error and just something you know yeah you've yeah hopefully yeah you eventually land in yourself one way or the other, whether it's a caricature or whatever. But you are, too, though, because you over over the years, there's something intrinsic about you that's going to come out in all of your work. But it's a known quantity now and you're comfortable with it. Right. Yeah, I'm not.

I'm not like a one of those like transform myself actors. Right. Well, I'm going to be like I'm an myself actors. Right, well, that's fine. I'm going to be like I'm an everyman and you're meant to see yourself in me. And there's varying degrees of people in that range. Yeah. But I'm not looking to. Put on weight or do accents? Well, you don't want to hear me do accents.

They're ridiculous. Like my husband and I do accents for each other just when we want to do a bit because it's ridiculous. I was doing French waiter for my children the other night and he was like dying. He was like, this is the worst. Your husband was? He was dying laughing. He was like the worst French waiter.

He's an actor? He's a writer director. Right. And my daughter in the middle of my French waiter, she's three. And she said, she said, mama, we don't understand what you're saying. She was like, your accent is she said mama we don't understand what you're saying your accent is so bad we don't understand what you're saying not working it was very bad but um but like how'd you get the office how'd that happen like how many times how like because you had done a lot of little tv parts you'd been kicking around for how long eight years

eight years eight years and you were still gung-ho? Yeah, I know. You got enough work to keep you... No. After six years, I was finally earning as much money from acting as I did from my day job that I had before that. So, years six and seven, I was able to make that same amount of money as I did as an administrative assistant prior. amount of money as I did as an administrative assistant prior, but it was through like booking a pilot or booking three great guest star roles, all of which like were totally unsatisfying and would get my hopes up and then crush all my dreams. Right. And then I cried and said I was going to give up.

I told everybody I was giving up that I was done. Briden said I was going to give up. I told everybody I was giving up that I was done. And my manager and agent told me that this is what an actor's life is and asked me if I was an actor or not. And they said this could go on for years and years. So are you an actor or are you not an actor? Oh, my God. I would have been like, I don't know.

I know. Oh, I was so angry. I was so mad. I mean, I was like crying. And I was like, it's too hard. And you're not doing it and you don't even know it is crushing my soul. And I was like, you know, that kind of just crying, like sucking air.

And my manager really convinced me and my acting coach convinced me to just roll through it, just roll through that and keep going. And it was that following year then when I got my audition for The Office. But Alison Jones, who cast The Office, cast me in my first television speaking role, which was Spin City, The Charlie Sheen Years. I played a waitress who had three lines. So when I'd been in LA for five years, I booked that job with Allison. But that was like my fifth audition with Allison. So I met Allison and she just liked me. And she kept calling me in every year for little things.

And I would book some little things and I would crash and burn at other auditions. But she just really believed in me. And then, thank the Lord, she ended up casting the office and she thought of me and brought me in. So I really owe everything to Allison and to my manager, Naomi, who got me the meeting with Allison originally. I know her.

Yeah, she's great. And again, like we didn't hit it off because like I brought her brownies or I like schmoozed her. It was really just she called me in. I did my work. She found it acceptable. And we just did that for three years.

And then I came in for the office. And the office was tough. It was a lot of pressure because there had been this original version that was beloved, which I loved, the British version. And a lot of people didn't even want the job because they were sure that Lucy had your part right yeah yeah she was amazing however yes she I've worked with her before on my show she's great I love her yeah I got to meet her yeah she's great yeah and um and so we were all really nervous and everybody was pretty sure that like NBC and all of us were

just gonna I went out for it up for the office? Yeah. Who'd you audition for? For Grzynski's part. You did? Yeah. I did. Wow. And I had no idea what the other office was. I remember doing it and I don't remember who was my, I don't know who my agent was at that time, but it was for John's part. It was for one of the two guys they kept looking for those two guys yeah and that's so funny because they made john read for dwight the first time right i think because he was like really tall or something everybody read for both parts but i remember who yeah greg daniels is in the room yeah so did you go how many times did you go in did you just read the one you went right to see greg right straight to producers i did go i must have because he was there.

Yeah. And then I did. I got cast in a pilot, a big old pilot with Odin Kirk and Janine Garofalo. It was a slice of life. It was called. Yeah. Right.

And it was supposed to like, and we were about to go shoot in Vancouver and they pulled the plug on it after the read through. And so I think that whatever that momentum was, because that must have been 2003, around the same time. Did you shoot a pilot of that? No. They cast it.

We had our plane tickets. And then it canceled it before you shot the pilot. Yeah, we did a full read-through. We had our plane tickets to Vancouver. Isn't that heartbreaking? It was a little much. Yeah. I mean, it's like that's the whole life of an actor.

Like, you think something's going to happen. You get attached to it. I mean, it's so hard to get the job, and then you get the job, and then the job disappears. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry. What else am I supposed to do? Like, how else do I succeed? I think Rainn was in that.

Rainn Wilson was? I think so. No way. It all must have been right before The Office. Because there was a lot of people in that slice of life thing. Odenkirk had a little part. It was me and Janine. And it was like a full dais of people.

It was a big cast. Well, Bob Odenkirk went out for Michael Scott. And I actually prepared my auditions with him. I would go and meet with him. And he's your manager's husband. My manager's husband. Yeah. So he would be Michael and I would be Pam. And we worked on our auditions with him. I would go and meet with him. And he's your manager's husband. My manager's husband. Yeah. Yeah.

So he would be Michael and I would be Pam and we worked on our auditions together. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. So that was pretty crazy. But. I could see him as that. But now it's hard to see anybody but Carell for the American one. And Gervais is singular, obviously.

Yeah. But they're very different shows. Yeah. Very different characters. And yeah, Ricky gervais came in while we were doing the pilot and he gave us some really great advice about how to americanize the show oh really yeah he said you know in in england you can be really bad at your job but you don't get fired you can just keep it forever and so he's like but in america that's not true

and people would be very frustrated by that here in amer. He's like, I think it wouldn't go over well. He's like, so I suggest my big suggestion is that Michael Scott is actually a good salesman. And you see that throughout the show. Like he's a maddening person to be around, but he has a charm with clients. And he, you know, and also just that, he manages to surprise you. Right. And that was sort of his suggestion was that, you know, basically in England we can live with a lot of abuse and very few sunshines. Yeah. But I think in America you need like a little bit more hope in your show.

Was that a producer's note? Yeah, it was kind of in a meeting that we had where we all got together and ate lunch. And I remembered thinking in that meeting if nothing else happens from this entire experience except that i got to sit in a room and eat lunch with ricky gervais and listen to him tell us ideas i my life is complete it's very smart though yeah yeah that's a very smart note i think so too and then stephen merchant was there too and stephen merchant said um jim and Pam that the romance between Jim and Pam it should never be more than like

I can't remember what he said but he's like it should never be more than 20% of every episode like it's it's just a little something like you're you come for the comedy but you stay for the romance but it's not all about the romance but but that's important yeah so like that's the heart of the show but you know this isn't that's not at its

core a love story right this was a hell of a run huh i incredible and i've gone back to watch some episodes recently and they are so good and i can't believe that i was on them and it kind of blows my mind yeah like it feels like a dream really i can't believe it i still have a sense memory of my desk. Yeah. And I left before they took it apart. And I didn't want to go into the soundstage after it was gone because I like to imagine it's still there. It's a long time.

Yeah. To be dug in like that and to have those connections. Yeah. To even a set, you know. Yeah. I can't imagine it. To the place and all the people and the crew. Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, like you said, it's a long time. And you did create some relationships there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now, post office, did you find that, I don't know, I didn't read this part of the book. Did you find, it didn't seem to me,

it doesn't seem to me that that role, unlike some other, it was a defining role, but it didn't seem like it would necessarily hobble your ability to be seen as anything else. No, it didn't. But coming off of The Office, I would get a lot of offers for, I think, what people maybe thought I wanted to do. Like, they thought I wanted to blow up the image of Pam.

So I would get scripts where they're like, we just think Jenna would be such a surprising choice for this. We just love her for this. So she gets bent over a car and, like, fucked in the ass. And, you know, just her tits are flying, but like no one will expect it. And I'm like, what the fuck script is this? What's happening? Why are you raping Pam on a car? Like that is what you are doing.

Like that is so gross. Guys, settle down. I mean, more than one script, like just something like that. Yeah. Right. Very disturbing. Yeah. We're going to get rid of that character for

good and exactly we're gonna just gonna fuck it out of her to pam what trump's doing to america that's seriously like so much anger so much anger at america's little sweetheart pam right i'm so sorry um and i'd be like no i think i'm gonna not do that. But then I would also get a lot of offers that were Pam. Yeah. You know? Right. So it was like the sort of something in between was a little harder to find. Mm-hmm.

But I also, after the office, I had another kid. So I took some time off. You have two. I have two. With the same guy. With the same man, my husband. That's good. That's your husband.

It's much easier that way. I find it's like so much less complicated. But you have another husband, ex-husband. I have an ex-husband. Who was a big director guy. Yes. In the world of films I know nothing about. Yes.

Yes. James Gunn is my ex-husband who is the writer-director of the Guardians of the Galaxy. You have no kids with him. We have no children. But you're friends still. We are still friends. Is that good? It is good.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, he's- You're not obligated, you know. You're not obligated if you have no kids to stay friends with him. I know.

Okay. But I think it's maybe easier to stay friends because we don't have kids because we don't have to parent from separate homes. That seems so difficult to me. I guess so.

I guess maybe if you like him and you end it on good note. We did. There was no animosity. I have no idea what you're talking about. It was a weirdly, it was like a surprisingly like... This sounds crazy to me. You're just talking crazy

talk. I know, right? He's an infuriatingly wonderful person who I just couldn't be married to. Got it. And vice versa. We were not a match. Right.

And who's the new guy? Lee Kirk. That's my current husband. And he directs and writes? He's a writer-director. Of what? He makes independent films. Yeah. That's how we met.

And you've done that. You made a film. The film I made with him, the film I produced was a film that he wrote and then eventually directed. What's that called? It's called The Giant Mechanical Man. And it's super good. And it's so sweet.

And it has Chris Messina and Topher Grace. And I just love it. But they took it off Netflix. So that's annoying. Oh, well, call somebody. I know. I'm the producer. Yeah, have Pam call.

It's my job. I need to make that call. Topher Grace can be really good sometimes. I love Topher. I'm doing an animated Yeah, have Pam call. It's my job. I need to make that call. Topher Grace can be really good sometimes. I love Topher. I'm doing an animated show with Topher now. I thought he was great in that movie. What was the one with Dennis Quaid? Oh.

Good Company. Is that what it's called? Yeah, exactly. I like that movie. It's a great film. In that movie, you were in that Copelman movie, Solitary Man. Yeah. I like that movie.

Michael Douglas. Great actor. Amazing. Yep. And I'm getting ready to do a scene where we're walking down a New York street having a conversation. You know, like every scene you've ever seen in any Woody Allen movie. Yeah. And I turned to him and I said, this is my first New York City walk and talk scene.

And he turned to me with like such genuine excitement. He goes, what? I'm your first new york city walk and talk scene this is fantastic this is gonna be great it was so sweet like he got it right like he got why an actor wants to do a new york city walk and talk right yeah yeah that's great but they stop traffic and so you're crossing the street or acting like there's traffic but there's no traffic right so. It's so cool. Oh, it's great. And he completely showed up for you.

He did. That's sweet. He got that it was special. And so what's happening now? You got to get going. So the book is happening. It's helpful. It's good.

It'll put your dream into perspective. Yeah. If you want to do acting. All those things. Yeah. So I have that. Carell writes it forward. But you have to do acting. All those things. Yeah. So I have that. Carell writes it forward. But you have these weird interviews.

I do. I interviewed four working actors that you probably don't recognize, but they work all the time. And to me, that should be your goal when you set out to have a career in acting, because that is a successful career. So it shouldn't be about being famous or being recognizable, but like a working actor is it's working. So yeah, I interview these four working actors and Derek Waters, the creator of Drunk History

is one of the people that I get him in here. I like that guy. He's amazing. He did. He was on Marin, my show, and he was funny and Drunk History is funny. I don't drink those, so I can't do it. But you could be on it. You could be a performer on it.

He's never asked me. So maybe we'll work that out. I've known Derek for 15 or 16 years, and it wasn't until last year that he finally asked me to be on Drunk History. I think he's a good actor. I do too. Yeah. I've known him for a long time. Yeah.

How'd you meet him? We had the same manager, and we ended up going to the same acting coach. Who's that? Robert Devonzozo and he's amazing yeah and um he transformed my career how he taught me how to audition he taught me how to audition effectively and he deprogrammed my mind he taught me what i should be expecting from the industry and what i shouldn't and what i should be doing for myself. He like was like part therapist, but not in the like, not in the sleazy, annoying way that acting teachers like want to take you back to your childhood traumas and make you

like spill out your guts in class. I hate that. It was about just like cutting out all the bullshit, bringing yourself to a role, and then also just literally teaching me what everything I was doing wrong in my auditions. Oh, practical. Yeah, he doesn't teach you how to act. He's like, go to acting school. He has acting classes, but for this audition class,

he's like, I'm teaching you how to audition, which is a completely different skill and one that I hadn't learned. And I didn't understand why I wasn't getting cast in things. What was the primary trick? Memorize the first three lines of every scene. So that especially if you're only given a small amount of time with the material,

because sometimes you get there and like, here's your scene. Memorize the first three lines so your face is up because they make almost all their decisions within the first three lines of a scene. Pick one moment where you're going to make a dramatic choice in the scene, but just one, and then actively listen when the other person is talking.

Don't look down at your script for your next line. Make sure that there are times when your eyes are up and you're listening and reacting to the casting director or the other person reading. And then he also taught me about the questions that you can ask in order to help inform your performance at an audition. Like, just like little things like on a scale of one to 10, how broad is this? 10 being super broad, one being not at all. And then the casting director will say, oh, it's probably like about a seven.

And then you do it. And they're like, you know what? I'm sorry. Bring it up to a nine. Like engage them, like help them direct you. Right. And knowing how to ask questions. Engage them. Help them direct you. Right. And knowing how to ask questions. Wow.

So he's awesome. That's great. And that's where you met Derek? That's where I met Derek. And you still work with Naomi? I still work with Naomi. Do you have two kids? And I have two kids. And you like them?

I love them. Good. And your parents are still with us? My parents are still alive. And they're proud of you. They are proud of me. But anytime my mom says she's proud of me, she's going to remind you that she's also very proud of her other daughter, who is not a famous actress, but who is a wonderful teacher in St. Louis.

Good. Keeps it equal. And you're going to do that with your kids? I guess so, right? Yeah. What do you mean? As an experiment, I suppose I could just heap pride on one child and not the other and see how it goes.

But that seems like, I feel like my mom's doing it right. Yeah, no, that's one of the good things you learn from them. I did. Try to take the good thing. How old are your kids? My kids are almost six and three. All right. So they haven't really proved themselves yet.

So they haven't. I mean, they have a long way to go. I mean, we'll see if I'm proud of them. We don't know yet. Yeah. Play it by ear. Yeah. We'll see. I mean, they have a long way to go. I mean, we'll see if I'm proud of them. We don't know yet. Yeah. Play it by ear. Yeah, we'll see. But prepare to be proud.

I'm prepared. I will. You know, I'll prepare for the best. Good. Thank you for talking. Oh, thanks. Okay. Wasn't that great?

I liked it. I'll play a little guitar, I think. I deprived you of that. Maybe that was a pleasure for you not to have it. But I'll do it now. Thank you. Boomer lives! and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those.

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