WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 863 - Kim Deal

Episode Date: November 12, 2017

As a member of The Pixies and The Breeders, Kim Deal is already a rock legend. But she was also a backup singer in a disco band with her twin sister Kelley and a budding cellular biologist with a degree in Medical Technology. Kim talks with Marc about all of that as well as her hard-fought sobriety and her reasons for coming around on digital music production. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Lock the gates! All right, folks. Let's do this. I have things to talk about. This is where I talk about things. I said I was going to talk about. This is where I talk about things. I said I was going to talk about things on Twitter and not do it there because it's just a clusterfuck of toxicity. So this is where I do it. This is where I talk about things.

And this is where I think things through and hash things out. Obviously, I'm referring to my friend Louis C.K.'s admission that he did some vile, inappropriate, hurtful, damaging, selfish shit, some sexual misconduct, some awful behavior. There was a report in the New York Times, obviously you know about that, and then a day later, Louis copped to it. And copped to it late. But he did it, and he's my friend,

and it's a difficult position to be in. Because I certainly can't condone anything he did. There was no way to justify it, or there's no way to defend it. There's no way to apologize for him about it. There's no way to let him off the hook. But there's a lot of concern about who knew what, when. How did you guys let this happen? Everybody knew this.

Everybody knew that. Everybody was in on it. It's not true. Sadly, I knew what most people knew. There was a story out there, I guess going back several years, that there were unnamed people in the story. It took place in a hotel room in Aspen. It was always out there, but then it would pick up momentum at different times.

And I would ask him about it. I would say this story about you forcing these women to watch you jerk off, what is that? Is that true? He goes, no, it's not true. It's not real real it's a rumor and i would say well are you going to address it somehow do you know to handle it to get out from under it whenever it shows up he goes no i can't i can't do that it'll give it life it'll give it air and that that was the conversation the incidents, how would everybody know about that?

One thing that people don't quite take into consideration is when people do shameful shit, they do everything they can to hide it. Men, women, children hide things for years that they're ashamed of. And if they have to keep doing it, then they keep hiding it from their friends, from their husbands, from their wives.

People engage in shameful shit and they keep it hidden until they get caught. That's what happens. The real problem is that female comics have been hearing about this stuff for a while. And there was no place where they could go with that information. And I know some of them. And I know Rebecca Corey, and she couldn't tell me about this.

There was no place for them to go with these stories where they felt safe to tell them. And it's fucking sad. So when it comes to believing women, I want to believe women. But in this particular instance, there was no one named in that story. There was no place for women to go tell this story. There was no women attached to it. I didn't know their names until Friday. So I believed my friend. It's just that the environment enabled the dismissiveness of it. How do I put this?

The work environment, the social environment makes it difficult for people to come forward and be heard, to be listened to, to be believed, and for action to be taken around that. It is pushed aside. It is

dismissed. It is framed as an annoyance or an embarrassment. It is used against people. It is used as a threat. That is the structure that exists in life. So how do we get that power structure in check? The big step is empathy, something have i i've had problems with empathy you know when you have man brain or when you don't you are not capable of of empathizing properly with women which i don't think a lot of men are and i'm not going to speak for all men but i can speak for myself to find that empathy it requires some sort of vigilance. It requires really being, not just listening to someone's story or listening to something someone says, to actually put yourself in the place of another person. That requires a little work, especially if you're

doing it in a work situation, in a situation where there's a power dynamic, in a situation where you're not even seeing a person, you're just seeing a woman who is there to receive your garbage or to be used as a sexual object or to be diminished or condescended to or dismissed or pushed aside with your own selfish needs and desires. It's hard to understand that that power dynamic is real and it exists because things have been the way they've been for a long time. Like my friend, my friend Sovereign said to me, she said, what it comes down to is that no one should be asked if they want to see your dick when they walk into work. That just thinking about it like that should open up an entire window of empathy to what a lot of women have to deal with every day walking into toxic male work environments.

It's just a bubbling undercurrent. If it's not overt, it's an electrical undercurrent that has always run through society. So that's the way things are set up. And now when you talk about comedy, that world is a goddamn free-for-all. It's a Wild West show. Is it a boys club? Yeah, I guess it is. And in terms of my own experience with that

and looking back on it, when there are women comics, I'm like, I think women are funny and they've got to be able to fight it out. There was no safe space created for women. There was no special treatment given for women. And then it was just sort of like if you can cut it if you can make it if you can rise up out of this garbage that is the comedy

scene of what i came up in then you deserve it what you didn't take into consideration is all the fucking obstacles that they're up against aside from just that and my friend laurie comartin actually wrote a very nice piece in new york times about that. That, yeah, that was the way I thought. That's the way guys thought. I know a lot of, most male comics respect female comics. And they say, well, she was able to do it. Well, what we don't really, I think, know is just how much bullshit they have to deal with on top of just figuring out how to get on stage and do comedy. They have to deal with all of us all of the male bullshit that every woman has to deal with in every work environment there just is no hr department in comedy there's no place to go to have grievances it's stacked against you if you

got a male club owner and you got a dude that they're trying to make into a big comic and you know he you know he says something or does something or assaults somebody. It's always brushed under the rug or, hey man, don't make trouble. Don't embarrass everybody. Don't embarrass yourself. That is the way it is. And that is not correct.

And look, I'm guilty of it. i had a show of my own on television for four years i didn't have a woman writer on that staff i didn't make that happen i had one one woman director you know in comedy i i don't know really what goes on in in most clubs anymore but there is an imbalance and and also just the idea of changing my mindset or anyone's mindset about women as business. I mean, I'm on a show right now where I'm almost the only man and it's pretty amazing. And it's a lesson that I'm learning for the first time in my life. I'm 54 fucking years old and I'm surrounded by women in a work environment. And it's not a problem for me to behave. And it's not a problem for me to respect and appreciate and have boundaries and be in awe

of the people I'm working with. I don't know that it ever was necessarily a problem with me, but I certainly have been a toxic male presence. I've been a very toxic male presence in my life. I think I operate now at maybe a 30 to 25 to 30% toxicity level, but I've certainly been up around 90 in terms of being emotionally abusive, insensitive, you know, angry, selfish, compulsive, you know, and completely without empathy to the power structure that exists between men and women. I mean, God knows I was in two relationships

with women who started out as fans. I married one and I was engaged to another one. And I didn't fully understand that dynamic. To me, it just felt like, well, this works out because they like me and they get me. So my appreciation or respect or understanding of women was relatively limited to my expectations for a very long time. And it's better. It's better because I'm older, I've taken some hits, I've thought about things. So here we are and I have a close friend who has

acted inappropriately and there are consequences to it and people are hurt because of it, what do I think about now, about this specific thing, about this power dynamic that just sort of goes unspoken or unappreciated? And I'm saying, I'm not speaking generally, i guess i'm speaking for me that you know because i'm a self-involved person or i'm a selfish person you know do i not recognize it in my own life i don't in a lot of ways and was odd because you know when you start to drift as a man into that zone of like yeah i don't i don't see what the big deal is just jerked off in front of them or jerked off on a phone they could have left off on a phone. They could have left. They could have done this.

They could have done that. You know, he asked. It's not illegal. Yeah, but it's gross. It's creepy. It's massively inappropriate. It's potentially traumatizing. And I had to like,

and I haven't talked about this. You know, in order for me to access my empathy, it has evolved over time and if you listen to the podcast you can hear it happening i think we all have the capacity to do it but i was sort of empathy deficient uh in a lot of ways not not just to women just to people in general because i was so consumed with my own uh self-hatred and my own bitterness and my own anger that I just couldn't see past anything. And that sort of slowly started to erode, you know, my lack of empathy. And I re-engaged over time from doing the job that I do, which is listening to people. But this particular thing

of the power dynamic and feeling frozen and incapable to speak or act in a moment that is, you know, profanely inappropriate or something that you do not want, you know, that's one of those things where, you know, a dude will say, you know, well, you just leave, you know, just why don't you just leave? What is it about that moment of paralysis? And I thought about a situation I don't really think I've talked about publicly. And obviously this isn't about me and I'm not comparing myself to women in any way. I'm trying to access the empathy and the understanding of this implicit and malignant age-old power dynamic so I can grow and help change things. This is obviously a fucking massive, turbulent learning moment for men

if you choose to take the education. But going back years ago when I was in college, I had a professor, a philosophy professor, I guess I was 18 or 19 years old. And I really wanted to be smart. I really wanted to be an intellectual person. I really wanted to be thought of that way. And I wanted to have the goods to do that. And I took this class, and it was way over my head. I couldn't wrap my brain around it, but I liked the teacher a lot. This guy was a big, tall dude, big curly mustache, very powerful figure, very witty, intelligent, understood things, good dresser. He's just a powerful, impactful guy. Had a lot of impact on me. I liked that guy. And I wanted him to acknowledge me as someone, you know, who's

smart, who's, you know, on the right path, who's, you know, who's going to do it. He's going to give me some encouragement, you know, be my dad, help me out, guide me somehow. I remember, you know, he wanted to have lunch and we went to, we had lunch one time and it was great. You know, we were talking about stuff. He was explaining things to me. He was making things understandable and I appreciated the time and I was a little lost. And, and then we went out to dinner one time and it was a little different. He got a little loopy, got a little drunky and the

conversation was different his vibe was different and you know and i was uncomfortable so you know after that dinner when you know i was gonna walk home and you know he pulled me aside and grabbed me and kissed me on my mouth you You know, did I go, fuck you. What the fuck? God damn it. I don't want this. You know, what the fuck are you doing? No, I didn't do that.

I took it. And my body went into like a paralysis. It was almost like a leaving the body kind of moment. And I could not do anything. And once it stopped and I got out and I politely said, you know, I'm not, I'm not into that. And, you know, um, you know, okay, I gotta go. I felt bad and, you know, and I carried that, that confusion and that shame with me for a while. And I, and I put it aside, you know, because,

you know, I, I, I got through it and it was just something that happened and it wasn't, you know, whatever, you know, it was fucked up, but, you know, you're all right. But looking back on that, and I am all right, you know, whatever, you know, it was fucked up, but you know, you're all right. But looking back on that and I am all right, you know, men kissing men's not horrible. This is not something I was into or am into. And it was, you know, I was young and impressionable and a guy I respected and looked up to, I was in class with, you know, did that. And, and, and I had to go back to that class and I, and it, you know, it was awful. The feeling of going back to the class

was awful. The feeling of vulnerability of, of, of, you know it was awful the feeling of going back to the class was awful the feeling of vulnerability of of you know not having control over that and then it it was awful so I somehow in light of this of trying to understand what it feels like to not be able to leave or or to you know be you know in a position where somebody you respected or wanted respect from, who you even idolized, takes advantage or does something sexually inappropriate. It's scarring. There's no doubt about that. And even if it's mundane,

like what I went through was mundane and it's not something women go through all the time. There was no cocks involved. But it was a disrespect of personal boundaries and I could feel him misreading it. Like he was getting over on me. So from me to get to that place and i and i think a lot of people have been in that place who have been on the victim side of a power structure you know even if it's not sexual the humiliation of that you can probably tap into it. So, you know, when I got to that place and I read the New York Times piece and then I read Louie's statement about it

and, you know, I thought about the women. I know Rebecca. To move from the toxic male or just male disposition of like, what's the big deal? He didn't fuck him he asked he just jerked off just kind of pathetic it's like what's the big deal well the big deal is is that it's boundary shattering it is traumatizing it is unexpected uh it is shaming and if you let yourself feel that if you just let yourself feel what what all those women went through even if it didn't seem violent to you or

or like rape or any of that shit just the fact that you know these are people that worked with louis these are the women that you work with. Like, think about it. You know, think about wherever you work. When you make a comment, you know, even a minor one. Look, everybody has office crushes and stuff. But as soon as you make it out of your mouth, and that becomes uncomfortable forever. Like, these things, they may not destroy your life.

They may not even register in the big picture, but they're stuck there. They're stuck there as a trauma, as a moment where things change forever and there's a discomfort there. There's a shame there.

There's an injury there. There's a shame there. There's an injury there. There's a violation there that you can't give voice to. Well, now these voices are out, and you've got to listen to these voices. You've got to understand that. It's respect. And the way forward for us, you know, in all work in life is is to make sure that these voices are heard and then they feel that they can be heard and look you know like everybody has made mistakes everybody has minor or major transgressions in their life and i believe that everybody

is capable of change and i i have to believe that if you can't change, if you don't feel like you're changing quick enough, you can, you can behave. You can know enough to behave and then maybe you'll change. Most people who have a heart and a, and a mind, you know, know when they're doing shameful shit,

you'll get help because the more secrets you keep, the more malignant it becomes. And look, I hope this hasn't come off as any sort of apology for anything. You know, I'm disappointed in my friend. He did some gross shit.

Some damaging shit. And people like, you know, how are are you gonna be friends with that guy he's my friend and you know it's like you know he fucked up and you know he's in big fucking trouble so well what am i gonna do i'm just you know i'm gonna be his friend what do you want me to do i mean it's you know it's probably the the best time to be his friend when he needs to make change and changes in his life and you know and you know i can learn from it he can learn from it i hope but but i you know look i know obviously that what i have to say here in more than how many characters are on Twitter now, you know,

isn't going to, you know, please everybody, you know, the people are going to be mad about something. I understand. But I mean, my only hope is that, you know, it helps somebody look at themselves somehow differently and look at the situation in a way that's proactive. It's about, you know, it's about the struggle to be better people and make the places we live in and the places we work in function better for everybody okay so so i needed to say those things i needed to say them here i think it was the place to do it. And now we're going to do the show. I have a show.

I have a show here. I've got Kim Deal of the Pixies and the Breeders interview we did a bit ago. And what else? I should tell you that my friend, my buddy Jeff Ross, has a Comedy Central special premiering this week. This isn't a paid ad for it. I just wanted to let you know about it because when he came on earlier this year for the 800th episode, he was talking about it. And it seemed like a very ambitious bit of business. It's called Jeff Ross Roasts the Border.

And it premieres this Thursday, November 16th. He went from a border town in Texas into Mexico to interview and roast the people who are living through it down there. Undocumented immigrants, law enforcement agents, dreamers, lots of people. It was an eye-opening experience for him, but it's very timely. And I know the whole thing was really close to Jeff's heart.

So check that out. I'm amazed that he pulled it off. I'm glad he pulled it off. When he told me about it when he was on the show, I was like, how are you going to do that? Well, he pulled it off. I'm glad he pulled it off. When he told me about it when he was on the show, I was like, how are you going to do that? Well, he did it. Also, I wanted to let people know

who follow this show that Buster came back. Buster Kitten came back. I'm sorry if you hear people out in the hallway. I'm in a hotel room in Seattle recording. And I can't really tell them

to shut up. That would be weird. It would be wrong to just open the door of a hotel room and go I'm recording in here that would be I would make everybody uncomfortable but Buster is back he actually came back after being away about exactly two days it was at night I was in my garage I was talking to Darren Aronofsky and uh and and it became sort of a theme of that conversation when we post that you'll you'll hear

it you know where's buster and then buster showed up it was great to a great end to that story and i grabbed the little fucker and i brought him in the house and i told him never to do that again and you know cats will listen so the pixies theers, great rock and roll bands. Amazing. I'll tell Kim this. I do tell Kim this. I'm going to talk to Kim Deal, and it was sort of a big deal because I was a huge Pixies fan for most of the records,

and I was a big Breeders fan for all those records. And it was Boston-oriented. I remember them coming up in boston i think i missed the pixies but i kind of knew i don't know if i missed them or they were too early but i knew i knew people that that kim knew like i worked at a restaurant with one of the breeders who went on to be belly with uh tanya donnelly i it was it's throwing muses were involved anyways it was a it was a thrill to sort of talk about that stuff, go back to Boston a little bit, talk about the Pixies,

talk about the Breeders, and actually have Kim around. She is a rock goddess, and I'm going to talk to her, and you're going to hear it. Kim will be playing with the Breeders here in Los Angeles at the El Rey Theater tomorrow night, and the Breeders have a new album coming out next year with the full original lineup. So keep an eye out for that. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. at so i i'm surprised i was trying to think if i met you in boston because i worked at i worked with tanya at a restaurant oh you're kidding no what what restaurant edibles i remember that it was up on in Coolidge Corner Oh now she's a funny lady Yeah she was I think she was with The Throwing Muses then And she worked there

And some other musical people Worked there I don't think you'd know anybody But it must have been When I was in college So it was like 86 maybe I think I was in

I think I moved there In Boston 85 maybe I think I might have Known her then 86 Right Because I was Like when did the Pixies Really break in Boston, 85 maybe. I think I might have known her then, 86. Right, because I was like,

when did the Pixies really break? I think we started playing, I'm pretty bad at this stuff. Yeah, because I don't remember, like I remember it happened after I left. That's what I think. I left in 87. What do you consider breaking?

Well, I mean like, I didn't go to a lot of rock clubs because I was probably doing comedy at the time. But I remember seeing Buffalo Tom. I remember seeing the Throwing Muses. I remember seeing a band called Joe. But I didn't remember the Pixies being around. Were you guys doing a lot of the clubs? Did you do the Rat and Shit?

We did the Rat. We did Chet's Last Call. We did Jack's. Chet's Last Call. We did T.T. the Bears. T.T. the Bears T.T. the Bears in yeah Somerville

yeah or yeah right there yeah Central Square-ish Cambridge right 1988

Surfer Rosa oh see that's so confusing for me we recorded it probably in 97 87 fucking shit

87 yeah and so that means you were around come on program came out in 87 maybe and then that means we recorded it in 86 probably which means then that i probably i'm i've i probably moved to b in 85. That might not be true, though. Okay. All right. Why does it not have Come On Pilgrim on the record listing? Well, Come On Pilgrim and Surfer Rosa were import only.

Come On Pilgrim is a mini album that 4AD put out from our demos that we recorded with Gary Smith at that studio that they own. It's great. We're both losing our memories. It's awesome. I guess it happens now. Man, what's it called? About the same age.

Are you going to edit this about us just trying to remember things? No, I think it's great. And I'm not going to Google anything anymore. I'm just going to let it struggle. It had a few syllables in it. Yeah. A few of them. Yeah.

I don't know what that would be. Yeah. And it was in a place, like I just moved to Boston from Dayton, from Huber Heights, Ohio, which is a tiny little suburb of Dayton, which is a tiny little city. So I moved into the big city of Boston. What was that? Like 85? Something.

Like that? I'm going to stick with that. 85, 86-ish? Yeah. Well, wait. Okay. So I'm just saying you were probably just at the cusp right there. Right.

And I took off. Yes. It already happened. Like the bands that were there when I was going to school were like Scruffy the Cat, the Dogmatics. O Positive. O Positive. Yes, yes.

Yeah. Del Fuego's. Sure. Yeah, that was before us. Remember the channel? Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah. I saw James Brown at the channel.

It was kind of sad. Oh, really? Yeah, because it wasn't a big enough stage, and they had like carpeting on the stage. Right. And he couldn't do his stuff, so it was kind of late in the game for James. Yeah. But yeah, sure, I remember the channel down by the water. Yeah.

But you grew up all in Ohio, though. Mm-hmm. Born in Ohio? Born in Ohio. And raised in Ohio. Raised in Ohio. Yeah. My family come from West Virginia.

Yeah. All of them do. My brother even. Yeah. He's 18 months older than I am. He was born in West Virginia? Yes. All of them come from West Virginia. Yeah.

From the mountains of West Virginia. The hills? Would you call them Appalachian? Yes. They are Appalachian hillbillies. Absolutely, they are. They are? Really?

Yeah. What's your brother's name kevin so there's three of you yes and your twin sister that's right so my mother had eight three children 18 months and younger so that was hard on her she reminded why did they leave virginia west virginia yeah my dad got went to the you know korea korean war and then got a GI Bill. And then he went to school on the GI Bill for mathematics. And then he moved up to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, married my mother, had my brother, and they moved up to Dayton, Ohio, which was a big Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. And was hiring.

And he was a physicist. Wow. So he worked at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. And it was hiring. And he was a physicist. Wow. So he worked at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. And he worked on the down pilot. He worked on radar. He worked on heat imaging. Wow. He worked on...

And he would tell you all this? No, he didn't say anything about anything. He had to learn. He hardly talked. Later, he never talked to you? Not really. How'd you find all that out? Later.

I remember his retirement party we went to. And they did this thing with a heat imaging thing, and I asked why, and somebody uttered, Dad worked on something like that. So that's all I know. That's all you knew, is all the retirement party information. Yeah. Yeah, he did a lot of important work for the military. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. But he couldn't tell you? Did he talk about anything or just not about work? I don't know. I don't think he was very talkative. No, he liked to sit down with his paper, his newspaper, and it would be one of those, Dad, Dad, Dad, Dad. But my mom was a nursery school teacher, so she was, you know, it was, did you have a

dad like that? And there were two of you. Yes. Three. Yes. Going, Dad, Dad. Yes, pretty much, yes. It seemed like it, yeah.

Yeah. But he was good. My dad wasn't home. No, my dad was a doctor. He just wasn't there. Oh. And he'd show up very late, and occasionally I'd see him on the couch eating ice cream. And then it was just like, hey, hey.

And then on weekends he'd do like on weekends there was yelling and then later there was crying that's yeah it was a full arc yeah yeah that's nice yeah it's exciting yeah so when did you start playing the music well um you know we do have a tape recorder of me and kelly when we were like four years, and my mom with the super hillbilly voice still, because she hadn't lost it all, but she's got this little quarter-inch reel-to-reel. Dad must have set it up for her, and she had us singing. Now sing into the microphone. Sing.

And we sing this, me and Kelly sing secondhand rows with the English accents and everything. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I do, you know, and we're in pitch. It's amazing to hear. It's like, wow, that's pretty good. And I even cough the way I kind of cough now before I start singing. And like I'm four and I do that. It's like I always thought I did that because of smoking or something,

but I'm four and I'm coughing and then singing. So that's nice to know. It's a deeply ingrained habit. It's prepping. Yeah. Yeah, it's an instinct. And then my dad got an acoustic guitar and he decided he was going to learn to play guitar. So we went to a guitar teacher and there's tablatures and the guitar teacher had a folder.

It looked like one of his work folders. Yeah. Yes. And he had it out there. And so I picked up the guitar and in front of dad's chair chair while he wasn't talking or listening to anything I was saying. I opened it up and I began playing King of the Road. That was the first song I learned on guitar. I think I might have learned that too, right?

Yeah. It's one of those songs you learn. Yeah, I did. Yeah. King of the Road. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

King of the road. Yeah. The father of the rat. He's got the 50 cents. Yeah, there you go. So, everybody's clicking. So now, so then, and I had a positive experience. My dad said, look at you, Kim, you can actually play that better than I can.

I think that positive experience of like, and it was fun to actually learn the math of the tablature i found was very interesting yeah yeah and that's how you just picked it up on your own yes yeah and your sister too nope and my brother didn't either no it's just you yeah yeah and then did you like because when i learned how to play guitar my mother used to make me practice with my brother he would play as well. And we would sit there and she'd make us practice 15 minutes a day. I stuck with it. He didn't. That sounds interesting.

But I mean, that's usually from piano. I can't imagine a mother making it. Well, it wasn't harsh. It was just sort of like, go do it. You know, you like to do it. And then you get into that zone where you're like, well, if we play these three songs, that'll be the whole time. And then we can stop. But I'm glad she did it right it

wasn't too authoritarian right that's interesting but when did you start singing with your sister i imagine that you guys well when we were four we had done that one song yeah we sang oh yeah i mean when the movie came out what's the oliver song i mean we would sing along with that we would we were always singing glory is food yes yes yeah and um yeah i remember going up in a tree and the the red-headed lady when she's saying like hell i've got my pride and i would climb up into the tree and i would actually cuss and then kevin went in my brother went inside and told on me that i cussed in the tree because i was singing that song and then have to do they try to have to get you out of the tree?

No, nobody listened to him. So when did you start, like, I imagine the relationship with a twin, I can't imagine it. Were you guys inseparable all the time? I mean, how did that work? You're identical, right? Yes, we're identical. She's 11 minutes older than I am.

She hold that over you? No. Okay. She, you know, we were we were i mean just like sisters we were all very close in age so yeah we were very close but then you know junior high school when the hormones kick in and the shame of it all kicks in you know people do their own thing you know cultural shame everything yeah free free floating shame over everything exactly one needs their own space to

just hide their face in a pillow and just go oh my god so you kind of like this sucking yeah but oh really you didn't you didn't dress the same and all that stuff we did they dressed us similar in our younger pictures and stuff but no we didn't dress the same because some twins continue that yeah it's kind of wild right it is crazy but then some sisters like it too. They're not twins, but they just dig. They think it's fun. I guess, but not you guys. No. That's good.

No. Kind of went your own ways in junior high? Yes. Yeah. What were her interests? Go to hell. What were you going to say? Yeah. What were Kelly's interests interests she likes to read okay she really likes to read a lot yeah and she likes to nap and she likes to you know lay around and what were you doing playing guitar

um yeah i was playing guitar then yeah Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah? Mm-hmm. I had a guitar. Not a good one or anything. Not in junior high. When did it really kick in as like the thing? When did you start writing songs? I wrote songs when I was 15, but not on guitar. I just wrote it in my head and I showed my dad my song. I sang it for him. Yeah. He was getting ready for work. Did that get his attention?

Yes. Oh, that's nice. And he said, ugh. That was it? Pretty much. That's not. It wasn't a positive experience. It was like.

It's very dismissive. It was the same sort of experience. It's the same thing I got when I was like high on cocaine and I came to my dad when I was in my 30s. And I had drawn a diagram about how the world will never know physics. I had a diagram with a circle and a dot in the middle of the circle. And I was telling him, high on coke. Oh, yeah. It's a good time to talk to my physicist father that it will always be unknowable because we're in we never are able to actually look outside because we're always involved kind of yeah

one of those things right how'd that go over the Same as the song that I sang when I was 15. Did he know you were on coke? Same sort of thing. Did he know you were blasting? I have no idea. Hopefully he did. I used to call my mom when I was on coke all the time. Because I was always so positive and no one could bring me down.

So I'd call her up and she'd go, how are you doing? I'm like, great! Everything is great. I feel so good. I'm having the best. I'd just sit there. She didn't know. My son's a creep.

I just wanted her to think I was happy. This is the best time to call on Coke. I don't think she ever caught on. Oh, really? That's almost sadder. What, that she didn't know? That she actually thinks her son is this much of a... Well, it was relative yeah she eventually she

knew when i was out here like there's just you know it was one of those things do you what i don't know did your parents ever catch you finally when wasn't i caught constantly yeah when i was out here in the 80s and i was all fucked up on coconut sleep and my mother came out with her business partner to go to a fashion show and I had to pick him up at the airport and I was late because I hadn't slept. It was like I slept like an hour and I get them in the car and I just reek of fucking booze and I had to pull over to eat a slice of pizza because I thought I was going to die.

With him in the car before? No, with the two of them in there. I'm like, I'm sorry. I just got to. Because I hadn't eaten in like two days. So like, you know, when it comes over you, you're like, I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to make it to wherever I need to go if I don't need a slice of pizza. And then she knew.

It was the pizza that was the giveaway. Yeah. Yeah. But there was nothing they could do about it. And there was nothing they could do. No. No. But that's like, that was the first time.

Yeah. Well, that was the first time? The first time that I got caught. I got cleaned so many times. I used to be holed up in my house in Dayton, and I wouldn't answer the door, and I would lock the door. And they had keys, so they would come in, and he would just like, Kim, you're fucking up. It was really sad. And then I would start chaining the door so they couldn't, you know, they could always break it.

But they're not going to do that. And I remember my mother took her lipstick and she drew a smiley face on my front door with lipstick and said and wrote out, I love you. Exclamation point, exclamation point. And I opened the door. I'm probably snarled at it or something. But, you know, I wish I still had that because my mom has advanced Alzheimer's now. So she doesn't talk and she doesn't really stand up very well, you know. She can do a couple of steps.

But it would be nice to have that still on the door, you know. Yeah. The lipstick. Well, that was sweet. I mean, what Paul... It's all sad, though, you know. The disappointment. Yeah, but the love is not sad. Yes, that was sweet. I mean, what Paul... It's all sad, though, you know, the disappointment. Yeah, but the love is not sad.

Yes, that's true. That's very true. You know, like, there is the disappointment and hearts broken and whatever, but that was her sort of like, she was just letting you know. Yeah. Right? Yeah, it's very touching, yeah. It is.

It's choking me up. Yeah. Like, at what point was that? Oh, just one of many on the way. You know. Not near the end. But you were living in Ohio. Had you left and come back?

Well, you mean from Boston? Oh, yeah. I was the only, the band only stayed in Boston like for, I got a divorce. So the reason i even went to boston wasn't salarian anymore i think yeah okay now i think i might have gotten married maybe 1984 that's a guess yeah stab in the dark i know i got married yeah it might you know the guy 1984 he worked with my brother at the right patterson air force bay or he had a contract a defense contractor for the people at right patterPatterson Air Force Base.

So you knew him. Yeah, he's a friend of my brother, worked with him. Yeah. But I didn't know him for that long before I got married. And then we ended up moving back to Boston where he was from. And so that's why I was in Boston. No shit. Because I'd moved back there with him, yeah.

The guy. Yeah, uh-huh. How long were you married for? He was born and raised in Boston. He went out to do some, you know, there's a word for it. It's something about traveling and something about consulting, I guess, for a defense contractor for a Peterson Air Force Base. And then a subcontractor. and then he was going to head back, and so we headed back to where his job was.

To Boston. Mm-hmm. All right, so let me just put this together. Charlestown. Charlestown. Yeah, before it was nice. So you're in Ohio, you're going to junior high, then you go to high school.

When did you put the first rock outfit together? Wasn't really a rock outfit. It was just me and Kelly going out to clubs and playing our guitar. Like the Indigo Girls? No. Well, maybe. These are weddings. Yes.

We know Annie's song. Kelly can sing a good rose. I did Annie's song. Kelly, why are you laughing? This is my life. That's pretty great. And then Kelly did, there's a song Kelly, why are you laughing? This is my life. That's pretty great. And then Kelly did, there's a song called. Where's that record?

There's a song called The Wedding Song. Yeah. Yeah, and our friends really liked us to hear us play and stuff and harmonize and stuff. So they would ask us to do it. We did a few of them. Yeah. Never people we didn't know. There were always people.

How big was the repertoire? For weddings, you don't do that them. Yeah. Never people we didn't know. There were always people. How long, how big was the repertoire? For weddings, you don't do that much. Oh. But. So you weren't the wedding band. You were the special. We were at the wedding. Yes.

Yes. Yeah, we weren't the wedding band. Yeah. No. Then, okay. Before that, though. Yeah. The first time I ever sang a song in front of anybody was Car Wash.

The Car Wash. That's it. Where would you do that? We were, I think, 16. We were too young to be in the bar. Yeah. Moe's Lounge, Piqua, Ohio. Yeah. Moe's Lounge, Piqua, Ohio. Yeah.

There was a band, a disco band that performed at Moe's Lounge. And it was a family band. Five people in the family. The two sisters were going to have babies they wanted out. So they needed a replacement to do the harmonies. So me and Kelly bought tops that were the same, identical tops. Yeah. Disco tops?

They had long things. They were arty tops. Okay. Yeah. For dancing and singing. Sort of. And we tried to do some thing. Yeah.

It wasn't figured out like the Temptations or anything like that. But we could clap. Yeah. And then we did harmonies. And I was to take the lead on the car wash. This was an audition? No, this was the night. We had already done some rehearsing and stuff. And this is the first time I sang in front of anybody.

My friend Greg Martin was a heavy metal drummer, and he was the drummer for the outfit. Yeah. And I remember looking at him like I'm looking at you now because the audience is here. Right. He's the drummer. And I had the feeling of dread come over me. And I looked at him and he was the last person I looked at before I turned around and started singing at the car wash. You might not ever get rich.

I don't know. I don't. I just blurted out. I have no idea how it went. It was. It was. Horrible. Men bought us a lot of slow gin fizzes.

Oh. Yeah. That usually means it went okay or maybe not. No, they don't think it's okay or not okay. Look at the 16-year-old girls. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And we could sing okay, so I think we did okay.

I don't know. It wasn't a career. We did it for like a couple months. You did many gigs with them. It was always at mo's lounge i think that means that they must have been the house band sure and looking at it for a while maybe maybe two months wow you know i don't know and then do you remember a few shows yeah what other songs we did oogie boogie oogie i don't even know if that's the name of it it could be close to

that though and i know that he did um the one where you repeat the song over and over again. Bill Withers wrote it. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. So I don't think there was anything on that. We didn't do anything on that one. That's great. Yeah. So then after that, we did, we got, you know, I would save up money.

We would get a board for our Christmas presents and stuff. We got a Yamaha board. Yeah. You can play it out live. Although it didn't really do what I thought it was going to do, but I still have it. We still use it for rehearsals today. What do you mean? It's a mixing board?

No, it's live PA. Oh, so that we could take it with us and we could me and kelly up to it uh yes exactly okay and and we could um take it out to the ground round yeah do you know what a ground round is i lived on the east coast a while yeah so four sets you put your peanut shells on the floor you know four sets at night and then joe's is a fish house and we would mix in original songs with the covers that we were doing. This was in Ohio. This is in Dayton. And this is the two of you.

This was now we're like 18, 19, 20. Are you both playing guitar or just you playing guitar and she's singing? I'm playing guitar. Okay. She had a bass guitar and she played bass on a couple of numbers. And this was ground round the steakhouse. Yes. Yeah.

That's nice. So you're the lounge act in a way. This was more sort of, I don't know if it was loungey as much as it was like Loggins and Messina-y. Oh. Sort of. Well, no, I mean that was, you were in the lounge part. You were doing background music.

Yes, definitely. It wasn't a show. That's right. It's like the two girls over there. Four sets a night. You do it in the background for ambience. Now, are there recordings of this? No, it was before phones.

Before. Why did you just cross your fingers? I'm thinking God above. No recordings of it. Yeah, no. So this is in high school? This is in high school and right out of high school. So we would, yeah, this was, yeah.

Okay. So when do drugs start folding in? When do they not fold in? I mean, there's sections where I was succeeding and then sections where I wasn't doing so well from various... Substances and things. Yeah, like smoking too much pot or drinking too much.

Right. And those get juggled throughout. Right. As I try to... Balance, finding the balance. Coming up with something that's going to work. Yeah, the mythical balance. Right, yeah.

Yeah, like everything's going to be okay. Just enough to make it good. Right. But. Yeah, like everything's going to be okay. Just enough to make it good. Right. But, okay, so do you go to college? Do you have a regular job? I try to go to college. I go to Ohio State University. Spectacularly unsuccessful.

Completely emotionally immature. Couldn't find my classes. Didn't know there would be a map for them. I was in Lincoln Tower. It's like 80,000 people lived in that building and it was next to another tower where like 80,000 i don't know how many people live there um like 16,000 or something lived there i don't know it was a lot of people that lived there maybe yeah yeah and um yeah 80,000 is a lot but i but yeah a lot of 80,000 went on the campus.

Yeah. Or even went to the games. Big freshman dorm is what you're saying. Yes. And I could even look out and see the stadium where all the people would go to the game, the football game. And just like... Wrong place.

I have no idea what I was doing. So I did well in the first semester and I just left during the second semester. Was your sister with you? No. Was that sad? She was doing something else. did well in the first semester and I just left during the second semester. Was your sister with you? No. Was that sad? She was doing something else. No, uh-uh. It was just sad.

Not because she wasn't with me. It was just sad. Yeah. But I took a French class my second semester. I didn't speak French. Yeah. But I don't think you're supposed to take a French class in college if you don't speak French.

You know, I don't know if that's true. I did that because I had to because it was a requirement and I tested out of it. I claimed to be too stupid to learn a language. There was a language requirement for the liberal arts degree. So you didn't test out of it. You tested under it. That's right. I did not know how to speak.

I was not going. It was not working for me. See, that's brilliant. I don't know how to speak. I was not going. It was not working for me. Now, see, that's brilliant. I don't know how you did that. They offered you this incompetence test. It was a very embarrassing thing, but I just couldn't study. I couldn't fucking deal with. I couldn't do the studying.

I couldn't find anything. I liked school. I graduated with honors. I enjoyed it. I did, too, but I don't remember anything. I liked school. I graduated with honors. I enjoyed it. I did too, but I don't remember doing a lot. Right? Did you know what a TA was? I didn't know what a TA was until decades later.

What's a TA? It's a teacher's assistant, right? Oh, I remember them saying something about a TA in college. That's what they do. They help you. Yeah. So did you finish your college? No.

No. You did good in high school, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You went to a lot of colleges? I did go to a couple of them. I went to Wright State.

I didn't graduate. I went to Sinclair Community College. I didn't graduate. Now, I did go to Kettering College of Medical Arts, and I graduated. It's a two-year associate degree, and I enjoyed that very much. Run by Seventh-day Adventists. Yeah? Yes.

What was the degree in? It was medical technology, and I really liked that. Did you get a job in that after that? Yes, I did. I enjoyed it very much. What was it? What was the job like? I mean, what was the job?

Well, back in the day when I was doing it, you stand in front of the culture counter and the smack machines, and you get these samples, and you just feed the samples of serum or blood through the machines. But you also plate microbiology. That was cool and there was a specific bacteria that smelled exactly like juicy fruit and i liked that the worst one was the um not the stool samples the worst one and not the sperm i used to count sperm to see if somebody would be infertile but the worst was the sputum because you had to go to the cheesiest part of the specimen and get a swab and then plate that and see if anything grew out of it and then you throw some um antibiotic discs on it to see what it might be resistant to and then you wrote the report and sent it to the doctor how long did

you do that for a few years i really enjoyed it but then i ended up moving to boston because your husband who you loved yeah well why'd you marry get married i don't know a lot of people ask me that i did the same thing because you felt like you had to i cried all the way down all the way down the wedding aisle you were a nice guy you cried all the way down the wedding aisle sobbed my dad walked me down it's sobbed uh-huh all the way down it was it's horrifying fucking poor guy i don't know how i did it how long had you been with him oh four months oh really he's a great guy and he's got a wonderful wife i've met and they got a nice family yes i love his family it all worked out i love his family is so sweet and they love me yeah it probably worked out for love his family it's so sweet and they love me yeah

it probably worked out for the best yeah and whenever we go play Boston he always comes he always comes to the show and I know his kids yeah

I'm sure he's he worked out best for him yes it totally did completely whatever happened you did him a favor yes

definitely so there's no disrespect to that none yeah yeah but you that's how I got into a Boston though yeah and so Whatever happened, you did him a favor. Yes, definitely. So there's no disrespect to that. None, yeah, yeah. That's how I got into Boston, though, yeah. And so, but that's like, and how did you get involved in the rock scene? Well, now in Dayton, Ohio, back in the day, and I don't know now, I'm not sure, dudes didn't play with girls. They also didn't play with gays either.

With gays? Yeah. Rock bands wouldn't have a gay person. Not an out gay person. Right. Yeah. Not with them knowing, probably. Maybe they knew.

I don't know. Sure. And they wouldn't play with the girl either. I mean, I like rock music. Yes. Now, the other, you know, pop music's totally different. But I like to- Rock and roll hard rock hard rock and roll where you're actually gonna think you're playing hard who were your bands growing up who'd you love i like sabbath i like zeppelin i'm the typical i liked the news

of the world um county rock queen hard rock yeah i grew up in New Mexico, yes. Yeah. Sabbath. Yeah. Zeppelin. Mm-hmm. ACDC. Not so much them I didn't like. Oh. They were okay. I didn't like the guy's voice so much. Oh, okay.

Yeah. That guy could play guitar, though. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. I don't know. They were okay. For me.

Just for me. I'm not going to argue with you. I mean, I think you're wrong, but I never say just okay. But each to their own. It's music. A lot of people like Kiss, too, and I really wouldn't like them either. I didn't like them. I'm on board with the no Kiss. Okay.

And I have no problem with not liking Kiss. I have no problem with not liking Rush that much. I have no problem with it. I liked All the World's Stage. I liked that. They're fine. We grew up with it. There was a lot. I liked that. They're fine. You know, we grew up with it. There was a lot of bad rock.

There was good rock. I don't like people that classify Led Zeppelin as prog rock because I don't see it as prog rock. I'm not a prog rock person. I never heard that. Yeah, somebody once said that to me and I'm like, that can't be. No. No way. They're incorrect.

Yes, they are. They would be wrong. And what about the infusion of punk and new wave? When did that happen in your area? It didn't happen. Didn't happen. Not the original time that it happened. A little later.

It never hit. No. So if it didn't really hit then, it really didn't hit. Now, you can say that, like, I don't know, like when somebody in Huber Heights heard something kind of punky. I don't know. You know, punk missed, I graduated high school in 81.

When did you graduate? 79. So like, I remember, like it somehow in 81, my high school, they skipped punk and they went right to new wave. Right. That's how that happened

in Wayne High School too. Right. There was no punk scene. No. I did see somebody with a safety pin in his cheek when I went to Ohio State University fall of 79. Yeah.

In college. Made a little more sense. And that's the first time I heard anybody talk about the AIDS virus where there was something going around. And it was something about gay. Something. Those two words were in the same sentence. That was 79? First time I heard that.

Really? Yes. I don't know why. When I went to, when I was in Ohio State University in 79, I worked cleaning the toilets at the Agoura Theater across the street. That was your only job? No, I also washed dishes in the tower, Lincoln Tower. Oh, wow.

Right. Yeah. So that's where the guy in the safety pin was working in the bar at Agora Theater. Uh-huh. So. What was the Agora Theater? It was like plays? It was a place where bands came.

Judas Priest came with the bike, motorcycle. Speaking of gay front men. Yeah, I think he even got booed off the stage and it was his show. It was so weird. But nobody knew he was gay then. No. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And then I saw the Joneses sisters, too. The Jones sisters. I don't know if you know. They were kind of from the Pointer Sisters sort of popularity. Oh, really? Wow.

And then there were three beautiful ladies with huge nails, gorgeous nails. And I'm cleaning the toilets and I said, wow, those are nails. How do you do anything with those nails gorgeous nails and i'm cleaning the toilets and i said wow those are nails how do you do anything with those nails and she said i don't really do anything but sing and you're standing there just in your toilet cleaning outfit yeah yeah yeah all right so but so no nothing infused there There was no record sneaking in? When did you start to get hip to the new sounds? Actually, there was somebody who went to the coast

and then would send my sister music back that had 13th floor elevators on it. It had Black Yuru. It had Black Uru. It had a lot of Costello. It had... On cassette? Yeah, the undertones. That's a full range.

Yeah. Pretty good range. Yeah. James Blood Homer. Yeah. Oh, really? Okay. Are you remembering the actual box, the cassette box?

Almost. It's played that much because back in the day before internet, if you lived in a small city and there wasn't anything like a fanzine or anything like that, where there was no record store, you would actually never hear about anything. So you really had to pass cassettes. And that was the only way people would be turned on to new music if they got a hold of a cassette i love that about that the way that worked i talked to a lot of people of our generation who went on to do uh the more arty music and they all kind of got it that way yeah like you know either like there'd be a guy in town that booked these bands

that no one heard of there was a circuit like. Like punk bands just sort of going with people who read fanzines and coming into play. That whole thing. Right, right, right. I think that's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Tastemaker, a curator sort of for one dude. Yeah.

Right. You remember that guy in Boston? Billy? Oh, he's dead. I know, I know. Yeah, yeah. Ruane. Yeah.

He was sort of that guy, wasn't he? Well, he looked like that guy. He wanted to be that guy. I don't know. Boston was so big, though. Billy Ruane. There's a doc He was sort of that guy, wasn't he? Well, he looked like that guy. He wanted to be that guy. I don't know. Boston was so big, though. Billy Ruane, there's a doc about him. Someone made a doc about him. Uh-huh.

Him on his moped. Okay, so that's how the music fed in. So when you get to Boston, you get into the Pixies. How does that happen? And how do you invent that sound? Well, there wasn't really a Pixies at the time, but I can tell you how I met David and Joe. I met David and Joe because when I moved to Boston in January, there was a paper called The Phoenix. you know were judgmental like i was or whatever it's like you would flip to the very back of the page and look for the personnel ads because they were always the most ridiculous ads for bands i did the same thing when i was in i was in la for um the olympics and i grabbed a paper and looked at the same thing and like that people will say that you know i think it was carmen f

chi or whatever say his name was looking for a young.A. it was a 20 to 22-year-old blonde, mid-back, blonde hair down to the mid-back. And they were looking for the specific look. And so it's interesting, you know. For a band? Yeah, to put a band together. I mean, there were really crazy things. Yeah. For a band? Professional attitude. We have a van. You must be punctual. Something like that. You know, it's always sort of this weird thing like, oh, look at another one.

And I just, I was doing the thing where I always do it. I'm in Boston. I mean, I had a studio back in my house. I had an eight track half inch Tasc task in ohio yes and i had my own studio i made my own chords i soldered my own chords together i had a patch bay and mxr 32 band equal my solo music you know i had a dx obenheim drum machine that i would build the beat you know the beats just you or you and kelly me. Kelly would help, but it was mainly me. What kind of music were you making?

Just my stuff, you know. But it was interesting because like having the DX. Where's that record? Where's those recordings? I don't know, actually. Come on. I don't mind those. There was Death Bats and the Belfry.

That was an awesome one. Death Bats all around me. It was funny. But it was, I liked that one. So you were doing that. Did you do a lot of songs like that? Yes, all the time. Were those tapes?

All the time. I don't know. Are they in the basement of your parents' house? I don't know. No. Uh-uh. No, I don't know where they are. Okay, fine.

I'm not going to pressure you. I know they're going to turn up somewhere. I hope so. I'd love it. So you're doing a lot of that solo work. Yeah. Anyway, and I bring all the gear with me to Boston. I think I did.

I think I packed my eight track. I know I had it at my Oberheim DX. Yes, I did have it. So when I get there, one of the first things I do at work is I get the Phoenix and look at the back pages and start looking. And there was one ad that stood out, actually, that I actually called. Yeah. Yes. Mainly because I thought, they sound like a couple of cool people that I could hang

out with because I don't know anybody. Yeah. And they were talking about liking Husker Duve slash Peter, Paul, and Mary. Right. And so the dudes back in Dayton would never Paul, and Mary. Right. And so the dudes back in Dayton would never do anything like that. No. You know, have any cool idea

of wanting to play. Yeah, those are two cool things, but they're very different than each other. Yeah. Yeah. So it makes sense. Yeah, and it was, I think,

for maybe bass playing, it might have even said or guitarist. I'm not really sure whether. Yeah. And then, and it said something like, no chops.

No chops. No chops. They don't want you to have any chops. That was the hook. That was it? That was the hook. Because it's funny. Like, no chops.

It's like they're not the, you know. Not looking for a pro. You must beep. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. That's great. Yes. No chops.

So I called them up. It was the only ad I called. I'm your girl. I got no chops. I know. I was the only ad I called. I'm your girl. I got no chops. I was the only person who called them, evidently. I just found that out a few years ago. This is the city full of guys with chops, I guess. I know.

People can get very, very, you know, in the personals, they can get like that. I think in real life, maybe not so much. That's beautiful. I love it. No chops. That's a tag. Yeah. And I visited them in their apartment, Joe and Charles, and they didn't have a band or anything,

but it was nice to meet them and stuff. And what happened? And we started hanging out. Playing? Not really right away, not really, no. You know, you talk about playing. Like Charles had an acoustic and he played some songs. I didn't know what.

Joe could have played bass or guitar. I think he was on the fence about one or the other that he wanted to play. Yeah. And I had, you know, me and Charles split the fare and had my sister fly out to see if she wanted to drum. Yeah. Because she knew how to play drums. She took lessons and she had a Roger set and stuff. No chops? And not very many chops, yeah so but she said no so um we got somebody else you did

fly her out yeah and then she ended up staying no she went home she didn't want to do it so she went home so we got some guy who lived in Medford. Medford. Yeah. Medford. I forgot his name. You did? Yeah, we got some guy. And we practiced in Charlestown in the basement, me and... He didn't end up being on the record? No, no, no, yeah.

Just some guy? Some guy. I forgot his name. It's all right. Yeah. Anyway, we practiced with him for a while, and then he quit. He didn't... He didn't think...

I think he didn't think we were rock and roll enough actually you know because he charles was doing a lot of acoustic and stuff like that and we were you know had a bit of a you know so what was it that that the process of of sort of making that sound and making those records i mean i guess it's a hard question to ask because they're so unique and it it seemed like all of you were, you know, contributing to it. It didn't seem like it was single-handed in any way. Right? Yes, sir. Do you like those records, those first couple records?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We practiced a lot i mean then you know my my husband worked had worked at radio shack when he was younger and he knew a guy there david lovering yeah and had worked at radio shack too he i've met david he came to the wedding reception so called david and asked if he wanted to come and play with us, me and David and Joe. And he said yes, and then he kept coming back. He's the drummer. And then he's the drummer that we're playing with.

No chops. He was probably, out of all of us, had the most chops. But he has a great story where he tells where one of the first gigs he ever went to when he was playing live with his earlier band was that he had brought one pair of drumsticks to the show. And that one of the sticks fell through the stage and he only had one stick for the rest of the show because he just didn't think to like bring a couple. Another set? Yes.

It was pretty funny. Yeah. So those bands, so it took like how long for that to start to wear down? What? The relationship of the Pixies. Oh, let me see. Well, we did Come on Pilgrim, Surfer Rosa, Do Little. These are like such monumental records. Yeah.

They're so good. Yeah. And then it turns to garbage. Well, it really didn't at first. I mean, it just the bonds became looser it started kind of that way yeah i mean one of the reasons i did pod was because me and tanya were hanging out in boston and i love that record yeah that's yeah thanks so i know that kristin was pregnant at the time yeah so she wasn't playing.

Kristen Hirsch. Right. Throwing muses. Right. I'm doing that to make sure people know. That's great. And then Charles went on like a tour on his own as a solo artist going out and touring. As Black Francis?

I don't know. I'm not sure. Okay. And so he wasn't around either. So me and Tanya would play together. And Ivo, the owner of 4AD, that guy called and said, you guys have songs? I go, yeah, we're playing together. Yeah, we can have a song that goes from beginning to end.

We've got a few of them. We can make more. He said, because I would like me have you hear the demos and so we we made demos and sent it to him then that became pod and that became the breeders yes yes and that name is from where i liked it because i thought it was funny that gay people thought it was disgusting. Vaginas were disgusting. And it's just interesting because, you know, there's a whole group of people who have their own kind of intolerance and, like, they find something, you know, gross.

Yeah. Because you hear all the time guys think that, you know, being gay is gross and gross. Yeah. They got, you know, breeders. Right. Gay people think women are gross. Yeah.

Or whatever. Or just babies and pregnancy and all of it. And it is kind of gross. But it's the way it is. Yes, it is. It is. It's natural. So that's where that comes from, breeders.

Yeah. And I like horror movies too. So I'm partial to that name anyway. Is that the name of a horror movie? The Brood. Oh, The Brood. It was a breeders like a few years ago. Yeah? Mm-hmm. partial to that name anyway because is that name of a horror movie the brood oh the brood but there was a breeders like a few years ago yeah and so you and tanya did that first record and it was who else was on josephine wiggs who's a bass player now and she was on she was on the first

two two records or all the records she was on yeah she was on pod and then there was an EP called Safari, and then Last Splash. Yeah. Yeah. Safari's great, too. Yeah. Four-song EP. Yeah. Yeah.

And she's on the new one. The violin player was in a band called Ed's Redeeming Qualities in Boston. I remember Ed's Redeeming Qualities. That was the violin player. Carrie Bradley. And she played a lot with you. Yes, she played on Pod, and a little bit in Safari. Uh-huh. And then she ended up moving to San Francisco.

And we recorded in San Francisco. So she's on Last Splash as well. Right. She went on tour with us during the Last Splash tour. Isn't it nice having a violin player on stage? Oh, it's so nice. It really classes the join up. It sure does.

Her playing does, yeah. It does. It's great. Yeah. So what's the relationship with Steve Albini? You know, I had him in here. Yes, he texted me after he was done with you, and he said, I said some really nice things about you.

He said, you're the real deal. She's a real, like, great musician. She's a real, like, he just, like, out of everybody, that's a guy that's recorded everybody. You're the one. Yeah, yeah. What do you make of that? Well, I love him, don't a guy that's recorded everybody. You're the one. Yeah. Yeah. What do you make of that?

Well, I love him. Don't I? I do. I do. I love him. Yeah. I love Heather, his wife, too. And, like, but did he do Last Splash or he did the other three?

He did the other three. He did Tidal TK as well. And he recorded some of Mountain Battles and a lot of solo stuff that I do. You know, I do with him. Let me understand the relationship with it. And he did with the amps i couldn't find that fucking record online yeah i wish i had it i want it yeah now i gotta go to the record store and find it on vinyl i don't think i think it's out of print of course it's out of print but like you can go dig for that shit i got a bunch of buying records lately yeah Yeah. Why don't you reissue it? Yeah. Okay. Who is, is that on 480? Yeah, 480, yeah.

Well, it's vinyl time again, Kim. Yes. Get them on it. Yes. And there's a Bob Pollard song on there that I didn't know about? There is. I had two, I went down with him. He wanted me to produce their next record. He's an Ohio guy.

Yes, he is. I didn't want to produce their next record but he said i love your guitar sound so i said well why don't you use my amps so i drove down to easily in memphis with my guitar amps and i don't know that was so and and he had two songs that he wasn't using so i took one piece out of this and one piece out of that and i put them together oh okay you liked them i like those two sections of those two songs what kind of guitar after using i was just using marshall's see the jcm 900 the 900s yeah just like the way they break up yeah i do yeah yeah so talk to me about the relationship between you and and a producer like albinian specifically because

you know everybody loves that guy and he's a real purist and he's a real kind of analog hands-on dude. What is it like that? How does that work, man? Because I'm not clear on it. Right. Help me out. The thing with Albini that is good philosophically, what's cool about him, is here's the same thing that's cool about him and that's hard to work with him. Yeah.

If you suck, that's the way you're going to fucking sound. Yeah. Because you suck. Right. And that's how you should sound. And I will make your sound sound as good as possible while you're sucking and that's kind of like so I have to make sure that when I bring anything there he's not gonna he's not you know the band-aids that I was telling you about like use a distorted vocal and stuff like that there's a lot of different band-aids that I can use

if something isn't working or something doesn't sound cool enough for me and none of those are up for grabs with albini and you know he could probably he don't want him i mean i mean it's not you know he'll say it's not my record it can you can make it suck all you want do whatever you want to do i'm here i'm a service i'm a plumber yeah i know screw it up as much as you want right but you know there's a thing i mean he's you know he's here's what kills me is that as I'm convincing him that I need to redo this thing, this vocal thing where I obviously didn't hit the right pitch on this one thing. And he tells me it sounds good. And I'm like, no, I have to redo it.

I've got to get that note that's just too weird. And I'll redo it and it'll be better the other way for whatever fucking reason it sounds better the way he said it was and that's what kills me every time he's always right yeah but you you challenge him and that must constantly yes and he's constantly yes we can do it and waste time and go down this road like we always do kim or you can just let it go because it's not going to sound any better. No, we've got to fix it. Okay, let's do it. That's what?

Yeah. That's pretty much what it is. Did he record the new one? He recorded, I mean, he recorded a bunch of my solo stuff. So I've been working with him a lot. But the New Breeders album, he recorded two of the songs drum-wise. Uh-huh.

And that's it. And boy, can you tell the difference when his songs come on. They're just like fucking killing it. Why didn't you do more with him? Because he lives in Chicago

and the drummer still has a day job. And for him to take off the time to go up to Chicago to do it is kind of a big deal. Yeah. So we had to keep the budget. Yeah. We even mixed in Pro Tools this time.

That's a big. It's a big deal. It's my first time. Well, is that a concession? For the other guys, yeah. For Josephine and Kelly, yeah. But is it something you're going to do now? No, no, no, no, no.

Because you're kind of like against that shit, right? I think it makes it sound funny. I think that digital and Pro Tools and TC analyzers and vintage limiters, all those algorithms, I think they work really well on computer generated sounds

and the urban and the pop and the EDM. I think anything any like like you know people don't really use drums yeah and guitars yeah they might be it's actually like a keyboard pad that they've tweaked out to maybe sound like it could possibly be the smash of a guitar right who knows what they're using yeah but i think all of that stuff sounds good in a pro tools realm and it's all great. But I think it's... You mean if it starts in fake land, it's...

You can use any other sort of fake crap on it and it really just sounds great. But if you actually have like a C12 and you're singing in it and there's no auto-tune, then to actually start to smash it without preparing it to suck and be fake. Not suck, but just to be fake. Yeah. It really doesn't work well. Oh. I still don't think so.

So either you stay real, all real, or you stay all fake. I feel like that's best for me and for my ears. Yeah. Well, that's all good information. So for me, it's exciting to hear you talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Good information.

So for me, it's exciting to hear you talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's weird because I listen to all the records like in preparation. I don't know why I do that, but I do it because it's not going to help me talk to you any better. Right. But I just want to get into the zone. And then it's sort of interesting to hear the arc of things.

Like Pod is very, it's almost folky in a way. Right. Isn't it? Right. Yeah. You both sing on it, don't you? You and Tanya? Yes, a little bit.

She sings a bit, yeah. And then Last Splash is like all in. And then the title TK, that's got a little bit different than Last Splash. It's still kind of high. It feels kind of high. And then the one after that, that one seemed a little bit different than last splash it's it's it's still kind of high it feels kind of high and then the one after that that that one seemed a little submerged yeah yeah battleship what is it mountain battles yeah was that submerged it sounds submerged it does it's i don't know it's

sort of like listening to the idiot do you know to iggy pop i know the album Pop's album? I know the album. What's on it? Nightclubbing and the Dumb Dumb Boys and Calling Sister Midnight. You know, like there's that Berlin painkiller sound. They're just, him and Bowie are just high in the darkness and still-walled Berlin. See, that seems like it would be the amps one. We're Mountain Battles. I was completely sober as a judge. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Well, maybe that's why you needed to feel high. I don't know. There was a flat response on it because of the mastering issues. Oh, my God. It's a nightmare for me. The mastering is so horrible nowadays. I didn't mean to bring it up then. Yeah.

You're sober on that one. Yeah. But the amp's no sober. Oh, hey God. Zonked. Yeah. How was that record? Do you hear it?

I can hear it. Yeah, we're going to do a couple of songs on the tour. Josephine has kindly said, yes, I will play these songs. So she's playing a couple of them. Was it a bad time for everybody? It was. For me, it was a lot of drinking. Yeah.

Yeah. That's mainly it. Just drinking and pot smoking. Yeah. Beer. Oh, really? You're a beer? Yeah.

I liked it. You're a beer woman? Yeah. I did like it. Alice Cooper had Alice Cooper in here. Here's a beer guy. Was he really? Yep.

Aw. Is Pollard? I think Pollard's a beer guy too, isn't he? Yeah. It's beer. Yes. Takes a lot. It takes a lot.

You know, there's no way to hide your alcoholism when you're just a beer drinker and you're showing up at places with a case or two. Yeah. That's a lot of work. It really is. Oh, well, so how long have you been sober? My last drink was in 2002. Wow.

Yeah. Congratulations. And last time I smoked pot was in 2002. Really? Yeah. So. I had some back pain, some back issues. So it kind of, I went wonky for a little bit there.

Oh, yeah. On the painkillers and whatnot? You know, it starts normal and then it's like. That's always what brings people. That takes people out all the time. yeah yeah well good man it's great yeah you feel and how's your sister doing she's doing really well yeah yes so she's gonna tour you guys are gonna tour yes yeah we're touring so this is really the original line yeah this is the four of us yeah no tanya no tanya no they just reissued her, that Belly record, I think.

Yeah, I think so, yeah. Star or something like that. Yeah, they reissued Star. Yeah. Did you know she won a Grammy? I didn't know that for the longest, like I just noticed that. For what? Jesus Christ.

For Star? Yes. I didn't remember. She is a Grammy winner. Huh. You worked with a Grammy winner. At a restaurant. Yes.

I hope she's doing all right. listen to throwing music sometimes i thought i listened to a couple of their songs recently and it's really great isn't it yeah hate my way i really like they use that for american um horror story the first season and it was very effective wasn't that great one just out of nowhere they're just going to use your song and you get the publishing right sure i'll, sure, I'll take that money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's great talking to you. I'm glad you're well. Thanks. Nice talking to you, too.

Do I have everything? Like, I wrote a little bit of a sheet here, but I guess, oh, yeah. Well, we talked about that, the real and the fake. That was sort of getting into that all-wave thing. Right, right. It wasn't supposed to be a thing. I mean, it really wasn't. But then all of a sudden, people thought of it

as an all-wave technology. It's like, no. The concept became like, you were ahead of the curve on it. Right? That like, there is a competition.

There are people that believe all analog is better. They're liars. Why? Nobody does analog. I'm sorry. Nobody does analog. Except for Jack White on occasion. He actually might do analog, actually. nobody does analog except for Jack White

on occasion he actually might do analog actually he does yeah he might actually yes that's his trick yeah but think how

zonked out somebody has to be to actually you're going there to think about it like people that you think are analog aren't analog nobody does analog

it's no you can't do tape is what you're saying well you can use tape like an analogizer. You can throw your stuff through tape and then have it caught on a computer later on to actually. But that's not an analog recording. And nobody cares. And it's all good.

In the end, it's fine. Anybody wants to get their stuff up. And in the end, when the speakers play, it really doesn't matter. You should go do one of those live to acetate things down at third man yeah i saw that i saw that they're okay they're hit or miss no they're hit or miss right it's like there's something about like you know really recording something you know over a couple of shows like some of those straight to acetates that he makes where it goes live to an actual plate like yeah that was cool and then they had the the sand ball the sand oh no no not that thing right that's the that's the 1920s thing yeah he does show i had that just oh no i yeah that's kind of interesting i mean that's

no you don't need to do that but he But he'll record regular through a modern mixer. Yeah. But go right on to the, you know, make acetate during the show, but not with the. That's pretty cool. It is cool. But if there's a hiss or buzz. Oh, you mean like regular album, like regular acetate. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But no second tries. No do overs. Right. Yes.

I think they keep it. I think that we were going to do that. It's like, well, we keep the rights to it. It's like, oh, okay. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, right. I think so.

Because the Ultimate Painting one, I swear, has a buzz through the entire record. What's Ultimate Painting? They're a band. Oh, I never heard of them. They're pretty good. They're kind of Velvet Underground-y. I've never heard of them. Feelies-like.

Really? Yeah. Yeah, they're good. Theyely's like. Really? Yeah. Yeah, they're good. They're pretty good. You don't keep up with the new stuff? Well, I guess not. I don't remember a lot of people talking about it. There's a lot.

Maybe no one's talking about them. People send me a lot of records, Kim. Oh, yeah, I bet they do. They send me records. Yeah. But I do like them. And I'll show you their records if we go in the house. Okay.

Thanks for talking. Thank you for having me. Kim Deal, folks. Legend. I'm in a hotel room. No guitar. Boomer lives! We'll be right back. You can't get a nice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no.

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