WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 872 - Darren Aronofsky

Episode Date: December 13, 2017

Filmmaker Darren Aronofsky knows his films are not always crowd pleasers but he also knows exactly what he wants to say. Darren talks with Marc about the universal mysteries that inspire him - from numerology to Old Testament parables to shadowy professions - and the personal implications behind movies like mother!, Requiem for a Dream, Pi, and more. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf today on the show i'd speak to director director Darren Aronofsky. He directed recently Mother, but also Requiem for a Dream, The Noah Movie, The Wrestler, Pi, some other movies. I'm a fan

of his work. I enjoyed most of Mother. He's going to kill me. What's going on? Well, He's going to kill me. What's going on? Well, Judge Roy Moore was defeated, and that was a relief. I don't even know if you're a Republican and you're hearing me say that and it aggravates you. My response to that is really, really, come on. Come on. see i mean you know you can be tribal if you wanna but uh let's not fill the house with complete fucking dangerous lunatics it was just a relief you know things don't things are not great and there's very little good news and that was a big phew wow that's close that was a good feeling

and uh and then this morning or would have been yesterday morning, I woke up to the news that I was nominated for a SAG Award, a Screen Actors Guild Award for Best Male Actor in a Comedy. And I got to be honest with you folks, I didn't anticipate or expect any of this, man. And I'm very excited. I'm flattered. I'm honored. I'm flattered. I'm honored.

I'm humbled by the recognition by my fellow actors. And as you know, I have trouble calling myself an actor. I have trouble calling myself an artist. I don't seem to have any trouble calling myself a stand-up comic. That seems to be, you know,

it's sort of like, what do you do? I'm a plumber. I know what I do. I'm a plumber. But don't you also sing at a nightclub? Yeah, but I'm not a singer. I'm a plumber. So I'm a stand-up comic. I'm a plumber. I'm a plumber. I know what I do. I'm a plumber. But don't you also sing at a nightclub? Yeah, but I'm not a singer. I'm a plumber.

So I'm a stand-up comic. I'm a plumber. I'm a plumber of wit. But I have been acting, obviously, and I have put a lot of work into it, and I'm thrilled for the recognition. It's all gravy to me, folks. I didn't expect any of this. I didn't expect, you know, i was looking down the barrel of of no

expectation whatsoever and just hoping to continue to earn a fucking living somehow without compromising myself too much to survive either that or or suicide those were my options uh a decade ago and this is where we're at now and i I'm excited. You know, I'm just, and I seriously am just excited to be nominated. And there are some, you know, now I have to buy things. Now I have to,

I have to get a tuxedo or some sort of formal attire, a black suit. I have to, I have to go to these shows and behave properly and not, you know, be resentful

or just be grateful that I'm part of such an amazing show. And there's such an amazing cast. The ensemble was nominated for a, uh, for the, uh, for the SAG awards as well. Alison Brie nominated as well.

This is a great show. Great writing, great cast, the stunt people, they were nominated. They do amazing work. It's, it's just a,

it's just a thrill to be part of something so well received. And I couldn't have anticipated that. I really didn't anticipate any. I'm not living the life I thought I would live. The life I thought I would live was fairly diminishing. And there is still part of me, not that deep inside me. Actually, it's very close to the surface that when something good happens, I it in i'm like wow that's great i didn't think this would happen and then it goes right to something bad's gonna happen something's coming down the pike well

you know what it's coming down the pike for everyone yeah either slowly or quickly but you know you don't really know you don't know what it is or yeah if it's an event but yeah it's all it's coming down it's coming down the pike for all of us so uh you know in the that is in the big picture there is an end to this but uh in the micro whatever i'm not gonna read so much into it i'm thrilled thank you screen actors guild thank you uh jenji cohen liz flay hive and carly mentioned thank you to all the amazing actresses uh that i'm surrounded with chris lowell uh actor they just say oh the whole thing the writers yeah you know it's all them you know it doesn't happen without them none of of it happens without them. I just show up and put on my funny glasses and my Sam pants.

Put on your Sam pants, Marin. And that's what happens. I put on the Sam pants and the glasses, get the hair blown out. I'm in. What else is happening? What else is happening is that my cats, Monkey, La Fonda, and Buster, are taking to the new house pretty well.

It seems to be more than they anticipated. That's something we share. I don't think me or my old cats really assumed that we would ever get out of this house, the cat ranch, which is where I'm broadcasting from now in the hills of Highland Park. I think that we all assume that this was it for all of us. And I think we're having the same reaction to the new houses that they were freaked out for a few days, but now they seem more relaxed. They seem like they're all hanging out together.

Buster's hanging out with the other two, but the other two seem like, all right, this is it. We did it. It's this is real retirement. I feel like that my cats after, after being rescued from a dumpster or from an alley, from a garbagey alley in Astoria, Queens, saved from the cold back in 2004, trapped and brought into a house, my apartment, not a house,

with several other of their sisters and brothers, just in a fucking clusterfuck shit show of feral cats in a two-bedroom apartment in Astoria. They managed to stay with me, stay with me through thick and thin, through many relationships, through a lot of yelling, through a lot of sadness, through a lot of things. Monkey even went back to New York with me for a little while. He's made the trip twice. These old cats are somewhere around 13, 14 years old,

and they have succeeded. No matter what happens to me, my cats, Monkey and LaFonda, have made it. They are successful cats, and they are acting like it. They are sort of like, we're good. Everything's fine. We're not freaking out about nothing right now. You do what you got to do, Mark. Fix the house up, whatever.

We're good. Thank you. We appreciate you facilitating this, but you're no longer necessary to us. So do what you got to do. Buster, on the other hand, it's all new to him, and he's still out of his mind. But he started fetching again yesterday,

and he seems to be a little more adventurous than the other two. So, my lips are chapped. My skin is dry from makeup. Okay. So, I need to, before I bring Darren on, I want to say that this was the day that Buster came back. You hear live, not live, but you will hear live on tape,

the return of Buster. As some of you who listen to the show regularly know, he disappeared for a few days and he came back during this interview. Mother, Aronofsky's new movie is now available on digital HD and comes out on Blu-ray and DVD on December 19th. This is me and Darren Aronofsky. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First

Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Aronofsky. So now that I see you, I know we did meet a million years ago. I was always sort of, not mad, but like, I knew you liked comics. I knew you used Todd a couple times. So there was an element of uh you know i don't understand what what do i gotta do to to get darren aronofsky to give me like two lines in a weirdo movie i used to go see you down on lower east side right on uh on ludlow street you because you're friends with amy amy yeah old friend and she used to what was

the name of that night it was like a tuesday eating it monday night no no it wasn't eating it i thought it was tuesday michael portnoy was always there you remember that guy yeah sure yeah the yeah the guy who uh soy bomb the guy exactly emptied his prozac pill container and stuck his dick in it sure remember him taking all this out onto house in one night and just streaking across the house and as a performance. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty impressive. Sure. I guess, you know, that type of performance, I think, you know, has its moment.

And it's necessary someone be out there on the wire doing that. Exactly. I don't know if there's a future in it. Well, I actually almost gave him a part. I was trying to give him a part. Great. Are we trying to make me feel better? Exactly.

In what? In Mother, actually. He was putting on a little show with his girlfriend. You know, he's like a dancer and he's... Oh, so Portnoy's still at it? He does some weird stuff. He did like a weird game show. Like it was an installation in a space

and you walked in and it was very intense. I always liked the guy. You know, he was always odd. And, you know, like I said, there is that element that is necessary theatrically. walked in and he was, it was very intense. I always liked the guy, you know, he was always odd and you know, like I said, there, there, there is that element in,

in, that is necessary, theatrically. Yes. Someone's got to hold that, that space. Yes. I think.

I, I like performance art. Yeah. I think it's interesting. Definitely. It's provocative. And like, so what,

what part was you going to give him a mother? Oh, I don't know. I would have stuck him in some freaky, doing something crazy. Oh, like in the corner. Yeah, exactly. I got to be, I got to be. What's like five of these things. I would have stuck them in some freaky doing something crazy. Oh, like in the corner? Yeah, exactly.

Being corny. What would have been a shout out to you and all my comedian friends? Oh, that would have been great. And what happened? Why didn't you? I think we were shooting Montreal and we couldn't get them to work these days. So tell me about it because they sent me a screener yesterday. Okay.

Did you watch it? No, I got through most of it. Okay. But I'm still waiting the end. Oh, the end's the whole thing. Well, fuck, Darren. You know, like, I'm just trying to be honest with you. Feel free.

And, you know, like, I'm in, but I didn't finish it. That's all. That's fine. We can't really talk about it. The end is the best part. Well, it's probably better for a lot of people that we don't talk about the end. There you go. Right?

The spoiler thing. Yeah. But let me, like, I'm in it. Michelle Pfeiffer is great. Fantastic. Great. And, like, so, Chris it. Michelle Pfeiffer is great. Fantastic. Great. And like, it's so crisp. What are you doing with the color?

What's going on there? How'd you jack that up like that? Oh, it's shot on film. So maybe that's why it looks a little different. Maybe that's what you're responding to. We shot on 16 millimeter, old school. 16? Yeah, like the size of a postage stamp.

So that's how you got all the, so you didn't have a guy in a steadicam, you could hold it. He was holding the camera the whole time, yes. Like old school holding it. All original, yeah. We reduced everything. All right, so now, like, it obviously means something that I'm not, you know, fully informed of yet. Yes, you'll get it when you get to the end.

God damn it, I'm sorry. It's okay. If you're mad at me, you can say it. No. If you're disappointed, you say it. I'm watching it. I'm happy to be here. I've been a fan since, what is it 90s well i appreciate that but just tell me a

couple things about what compels that like you're using a form because you've done it before fantasy and horror right yeah a couple of times in your career yeah now there's an intention to that yeah what does that afford you well i think it if it lets you start in reality and then leave it like one of the great things that i i like about film yeah is um when it exits reality and it takes the audience with them because you you do that in sections in your other movies yeah yeah you maintain the reality yes right and i you know wrestler was very very real that was straight up straight up but requ for a Dream, of course, has many parts that sort of drift off into this feverish place.

There is like one scene in that that I can never get out of my head. Sorry. It's okay, but it's probably not the one you think. It's really just of Jennifer Connelly dancing, you know, in that scene. You know, where, I don't remember if she was dancing, but like she was high and she had to, where she was being paid basically a prostitution scene. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was hardcore because I, I, you know, I need her to, to be in a different space. Yeah. Jennifer. In my heart and my mind, I need Jennifer. You soiled her.

You may, you made a mess out of Jennifer. Yikes. Sorry. It's okay. I make a mess out of all my actors. Yes, she's a great actress, and it was a great movie. And I think you really did an honor to Hubert's business there. Have you met him?

No, I missed him. I have friends who met him. He's sort of an oracle in the recovery racket. Yeah. And there are a lot of cats who I've dealt with the second generation of the people that he was guiding through. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was. He was very much a bodhivita.

He led people to the light. That's what Ellen Burstyn called him. Not the Buddha, but the person that leads you to the Buddha. Yeah, man. He really helped a lot of people. Sort of old school, kind of post-beatnik New York drug shit. Yeah. And just a beautiful guy so getting back

to fantasy and getting back to horror and getting back to leaving the reality frame i won't get we'll get back to hubert but like so that that that allows you to start in reality and leave reality but it seems like with with the with the new movie with mother there was a very well articulated intention you had something set up and it wasn't like black Swan where, you know, shit gets weird, but you know, you know,

she's very hard on herself and it's disastrous. Right. But I guess my question to you is, you know, as a director and as somebody who's handled the, the, the, who's been at the mast of,

you have small films and huge films. Yeah. And, and this is something, this is something that came out of your mind and your heart. Yes. Did you have the metaphor? It is a,

is it a, did you know what you were trying to represent and what it meant? Absolutely. This is something that came out of your mind and your heart. Yes. Did you have the metaphor? Did you know what you were trying to represent and what it meant? Absolutely. So you do that. Yeah. You're not one of these directors who's sort of like, hey, make of it what you will. No, no. Well, I've talked a bit about it on the record, what we were going for, but it's a lot of things. And what's been the most interesting about this film and this trip is yeah is all the different interpretations and there's actually a line that comes up that um the poet says that uh

bardem javier bardem says where he says everyone understands it in a different way and he's talking about his poem but it's actually very similar to the film so that was your intention well my intention was for people to get like one of three ideas out of it. Okay. And all three have come out. Yeah. Well, tell me what they are. Well, some people see an environmental metaphor where the home kind of represents our home here.

And that's something you're aligned with, right? Did you put a little of that in there? Oh, yeah, of course. Okay. That's a big part of it there's also a marriage gone wrong falling apart well that's right there's the menace they had the menace of uh virginia wolf sure for like you know an hour it's just sort of like oh my god yeah i'd almost like to see that cast do virginia wolf it would be great it would be great it would be great right yeah okay right so marriage um yeah

yeah and then there's sort of this biblical thing going through which you might have started to sense i don't know if you did the idea which biblical thing you know more about the bible than me well adam and eve and okay i just met cain and you just met abel right okay okay okay yeah sure those great old stories yeah the great old stories. Yeah. The great old stories. So it's all happening in front of this woman and the crystal breaks and that's a big problem. Yeah. It's a big mystical problem. It's a spiritual problem.

Yeah. It's a creativity problem. Yeah. It's a creativity problem. Hanging your hopes on some sort of a pennant. Not always a great idea. Yeah. Yeah.

Not always a great idea. But so all those things, those layers were intended, but yet you knew that it would be like it would confound and confuse and aggravate and enliven audiences. You knew that that. where like this is punk this is in your face um but i think it came out of a place of like rage that i was having and it was on all those levels relationship biblical and environmental yeah in opposite direction oh yeah well actually environmental personal and biblical uh-huh but it takes a tremendous amount of courage to to occupy that space for that long and bring people with you. They've got to trust this vision. So how do you necessarily – because I mentioned that the actors read the script and none of them were like, this makes perfect sense to me. I think there was a lot of passion from the beginning from all the actors.

They were like, this is great. This is exciting. Let's explore. Jennifer got it right away. Javier, you know, had to figure out how to play that character. And as you see, it's a very complicated character. It was a tight, tight rope to play this place between love and arrogance and forgetting, you know, being kind of thoughtless at times. It's a hard thing to play.

thoughtless at times so he's a play so he actually is a representative of because i noticed a lot on the relationship level and also on that that this deference to the genius and and you know you know creativity the volatility of creativity that the fraud the vanity that the you know the the the sort of facade of it too yeah but i think it's that's a little bit of um that's a little bit to the side yeah there's something he's really representing something bigger yeah i don't want to give it away to you or to the audience okay it's all there i mean and you put it together but he it's something much much bigger uh-huh and how did you direct because jennifer was a was pretty astounding yeah really i mean like you're right out of the of the gate because she doesn't know what the fuck's going on. We don't know what the fuck is going on.

But she's so visceral. And so her emotions and her reactions, they come right through the screen. They're tangibly human. Yeah. And she knew exactly what she was going to do to play that. Well, I think we discovered it. Yeah.

And she actually, you you know we spent three months of rehearsal on it and uh went through the whole thing many many times and she talks about how she didn't actually find the character till the first day which is true i saw it happen uh and it was because when we got to set we were still struggling with what was going to be on her feet and then we decided for her to go barefoot yeah second she walked through the set barefoot it kind of connected and clicked for her yeah character came out but i don't know if i've ever seen such a raw talent like i've um she's first of all she's autodidact she's taught herself how to act uh-huh i remember seeing him in that you know in that hillbilly movie yeah yeah um winter's bomb yeah man yeah and it's just whatever she was then, 17, just incredible natural talent.

Yeah, yeah. It was like, what the fuck is this? An incredible technical actor too. So I would give her five, six notes. And I usually, with most actors, you give them two, three notes. They can maybe handle it. Yeah. She'd be able to do five, six, seven notes, and she'd hit them all.

Just bang them out. Boom, boom, boom. And technical, not just emotional changes, but like, oh, can you be another inch this way or that way? And it was a pretty, it was like kind of, you know, St. Michael Jordan in high school type of thing. Well, you know, I see how like, you know, David O. Russell uses her too.

Yeah. I mean, like, you know, I don't know what he's like, but he obviously has a similar appreciation for using whatever that energy is. Well, I think he just took her and let her shine. Like, if you look at her in Silver Linings, that's very much Jen. I watch that, like, every time it's on. Oh, do you? Yeah.

And I think also Elements of Joy. I like that movie. What I'm proud of in this movie is that it's not jen and that was the first thing she she's really not herself it's not this boisterous strong right female presence she's on the back foot she's very quiet she's a different voice and and i think she's still compelling oh no doubt to me is like what you look for in actors like a meryl streep that can disappear into all these different roles. And I think Jen

has just started that journey. You think so? Absolutely. I think she can do anything. I mean, this was the opposite of anything she's done before, this performance.

And I think she's convincing through the whole film. Yeah, I think you're right. It's been the first time where she's not really in charge. Yeah. Right. Which is hard for her.

Yeah, I bet. And I've seen her with accents and stuff, but, you know, still it's like there's a, you know, there's a brassiness to it and a swagger. And also a, you know, this kind of goofy charm that she has. Yeah. Kind of like Lucille Ball. Yeah. Yeah.

She could do that. Right. Which I just started rewatching with my son and he loves it. Which is also incredibly sexist. It's incredibly... Oh, yeah. Mrs. Ricky Ricardo. You forget these things that you grew up with.

I'd like to remember her as usually... But she is usually... He's the straight one. Yes. Oh, she's absolutely the lead, yeah. Right, but she's always screwing things up. Yes, exactly. Oh, Ricky! Right? Yeah. It's just great stuff, yeah. Right, but like she's always screwing things up. Yes, exactly. Oh, Ricky.

Right? Yeah. It's just great stuff, though. Yeah. Maybe you should do a Lucille Ball movie. Good idea. All right. So it's very exciting.

I'm very impressed with your capacity to manage these things. You seem like a grounded sort of nice guy. Thank you. But it seems like a quite an ordeal to make the type of movies you make specifically this new one and fucking noah that was a big one what did what did what possessed you it made a lot of money in the world it made a lot of money did well uh because that was that came from you right yeah that was my idea wasn't i think a lot of like my fans didn't see it because they thought i was like selling out and it was completely my movie

it was my passion i've been wanting to make it for about 20 years your fans from the rest were wreck William for a dream pie black swan yeah and the other fountain the fountain the fountain right i never saw that one right i didn't see that one that's a good one i'm gonna watch it you know but i mean i saw enough to be able to have a conversation with you you're doing good but but now because like pi had you know cabalistic you know uh numerology numerology mathematics the you know geometry right the the answer yeah yeah the answer that you know it's there it's right there yeah so that's biblical it's jewish Right? So Noah, one of the great Jews. Pre-Jew.

Pre-Jew. He's pre-Abraham. Oh, so okay. So the Jews didn't exist yet. He's in the Jewish book, though. Yes. Yeah. Old Testament.

Right. So pre-Abraham. Pre-Abraham. So yeah. Just a guy with a boat who talked to God, the God of the Jews, Yahweh. But also significant other- But before he was the God of the Jews. Right.

Right. He was just a God. He was just a God. Right. At that point. Just the God. He was just a God. Right. At that point. Just the God. They hadn't chosen. The one. They hadn't made the choice yet.

But he's in other, I guess he's also in other mythologies, right? Noah, he's not only in the Old Testament. I mean, you know, there's, no, he's just in the Old Testament, but there are other flood stories. There's tons of flood stories. There's the Gilgamesh, which is the oldest mythology out there, has a flood story. So, you know, there's a lot of different sources. But are you fascinated with that, with mythology?

I'm a storyteller. I get it. That's my religion is stories. For me, there's some reason why these stories keep getting told, because there's a lot of power to them. There's a lot of interesting elements to them. There's a lot of mystical, cool ideas that can reflect back. And I'm all about thinking about

those stories and how what they mean for us today okay so you wanted to tell the story of noah yeah why well he's the first environmentalist uh-huh uh you know he was there oh your cat did you hear i did i heard a cat mark's going to the door to check for the cat buster he's searching to the door to check for the cat. Buster? He's searching for the cat outside. Buster? Buster? Hey, Buster?

Buster? Buster? Buster? No luck? He's been gone for two days. It's driving me nuts. I hope he comes back. You never know out here. So the first environmentalist.

Yeah. We'll keep an ear out. He's usually like, eh, it's high. I heard it, I think. Something. I heard something. I don't know. I definitely heard what you heard.

Yeah. He saved the animals two by two. And I just thought the idea of this impending doom, this apocalypse, that the world was filled with man's evil and God decided to restart it again. It's actually very timely. That's for sure. Yeah.

So you thought it would be a... It's a commentary. It's about faith and humanity. A clarion call. Is that the word that I want? I don't know. What does clarion call mean? I don't know.

Can we look it up? I feel like I used it right, but this is ruining it. But you told it for the reasons that it was written. Well, I don't know. You told the story again. Different people would say it has different meaning. A strongly expressed demand or request for action. Clarion call.

As in two words yes okay well there you go it was that i guess so yeah and the last film yeah i think it's like about i don't know the last couple have been about screaming about what's going on it's a very frustrating that's pre-trump uh both times well this one mother was right mother was written the eighth year of obama and comes out the first year of Trump. Right. So that's interesting how things change. But I think actually it's just interesting how interpretations have changed.

So you see on some level that in your mind those both operate as environmental warnings. I think there's elements of that in both films. Buster? Buster? Sorry, it's very exciting. It would be great if he comes back. Buster?

Oh, you fucking raccoon. It's a raccoon. Two of them. Do they endanger cats? No. Okay, good. Oh, there's a dog.

They're so big, raccoons. They're surprisingly big. Have you seen them? You've seen them. Not in LA. Oh, they're here. Yeah. But when you do see them,

it's just like, where are they during the day? Some of them are fucking huge. Amazing. And they have hands. Have you ever seen a possum? Yeah, they just are like, where are they during the day? Some of them are fucking huge. Amazing. And they have hands. Have you ever seen a possum? Yeah, they got them too. There's one of those around.

I never saw one until I got into college and I woke up. I saw it outside the store 24 and I called all my friends. Store 24. Yeah. Called them all out of bed. Made them come see this. And they're like, I thought it was the king of rats. I was like, the king of rats is outside store 24.

I made everyone go and they just made fun of me for a long time. There's one hanging out now. Usually, I get possums, raccoons, skunks. Wow. Light on skunks lately. Oh, that's good. There are a couple of raccoons around. They hang out, but possums come and go.

But there's a large possum around right now. Coyotes. Yeah, that's what the problem with the cats is. Oh, I'm sorry. All right, so environmental, clarion calls. Yes. So where did you grow up? I grew up in South Brooklyn.

Yeah? Yeah. Near Coney Island, Manhattan Beach. Oh, really? Are your parents Russian? No, I was there before the Russian. Oh, okay. Yeah, the Russians came in in the 80s.

My grandparents came to America. So you were in the same place your grandparents lived at? Basically, yeah. So you grew up with them in your grandparents lived at basically yeah so you grew up with them in your life definitely yeah all all three out of four yeah yeah that's good right for how long did they were they around grandma grandma betty made it all the way through requiem for a dream no kidding did you take her to the premiere i don't know if she made it that far she uh the film's dedicated to her so she passed but I remember her being on set the night that Marlon gets shot at in the back of the limo

and goes running down the street with the blood guts, and she was just looking at me, shaking her head. Like, what are you doing? This is not a career. I should be a doctor. Where'd they come from? Where'd she come from? She's from Lithuania.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. Well, that's sweet that they were all there. How many siblings do you have? I've got an older sister, Patty. Yeah? Is she in the arts? She's a producer for CBS News.

Oh. Well, that's good. Yeah. And your folks did what? Both public school teachers. I don't know why I'm talking Jew now. It's all right. I'm decided.

I've shifted. My dad was a teacher at Bushwick High when Bushwick was rough. Educators. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And my mom taught fourth grade on Neck Road. Did they encourage you to what? To read?

Was it an intellectual household? Not really. Was it a progressive household? Was it a communist household? No. Was it a democratic household? Democratic, I'd say. Yeah.

And definitely you had to do your homework. They were teachers. They were teachers, exactly. So that was helpful because it made sure there was a seriousness about your homework. If you did your homework, you were fine. But you were a good student. I was a fine student. But what were your interests at the time?

I mean, how do you end up- You're talking about elementary school. When you got old enough to have interests, what, you know, what was driving you? I was pretty well rounded. I, I,

I definitely was good at math and science and I was leaning that way until I got to college. And, um, my roommate in college freshman year was a math major and his math book had no numbers in it. It was all like Greek symbols. Yeah.

And I was like, okay, that's not for me. Um, and so I the what was that what was it it was like sigmas and pies and all that stuff high level shit it was high what college was that at harvard so you got into harvard i did on you what was what do you got to know when you get in there do you have to enter with some interest i mean what were you like i had no idea i had no idea i had no idea i public school education which is like i barely knew how to write so i mean the the mac came out with the whatever the uh whatever the mac book the first mac whether it wasn't the book it was the yeah the 127 yeah the one the box the spell check

yeah save my i didn't know how to sell there and there she got into harvard yeah yeah i didn't really know how to do that so so you're there on the quad you're there at harvard you're eating burgers at the tasty did you eat there of course yeah but that's good hey you know you're from boston i lived in somerville oh very nice i mean i went to you know after i went to college at boston university and then i came out here for a year and then i went back and i started my comedy career in 88. So I was there on and off from 81 to 89, and then I was going up there to work. That's great.

And I used to work at the Coffee Connection in the garage. Very nice. Sure. Before Starbucks. Middle East. Middle East. Was it Ratzkeller? Ratzkeller in Kenmore. That was great.

That's all gone. Middle East is still there, I think. The Channel. Remember the Channel? Sure, the Channel down in- The reggae place. Well, yeah, they had a lot of different bands there the channel down on the wharf yeah exactly sure i saw james brown which is all developed now with like condos right or something i don't know i don't know i rarely go back but so you're there you're that that's uh that's pretty rare air for

a kid from brooklyn absolutely that was weird. It was weird. I was a long... Long coats. I didn't quite understand what was going on for a while. Yeah. It's definitely like a deer in headlights. I just never had an experience like that. With the aristocracy? I mean, there's all types of kids,

to be fair. And, you know, look, a lot of the people I still work with are college roommates. My writing and producing partner, Ari, was a roommate. The guy who does my VFX was a roommate. So, you know, Sean Gillette, who starred in Pi, was a good friend. He was at Harvard?

Yeah. But that was what was great. You met a lot of people that- But they didn't have a film program, did they? Not barely. They had like 20 film students. So did you graduate from Harvard? Yeah.

So what'd you end up studying? I graduated not, I basically became a film major, but I didn't graduate with a film degree because I was a little embarrassed to go back to the parents in Brooklyn and say,

I want an arts and crafts degree. Yeah, at Harvard. And you're paying this amount of money for me to go. So, you know, I just was too embarrassed. So I took all art class, like I took drawing, but I didn't really tell them.

And it was the only place where I got good grades. I was a B-minus student. The only A I ever got was in film. So what did you tell them you did? I mean, didn't they see the paperwork? Like, what did you get into? Oh, no, they paid that much. They were just glad I was getting through it.

And, you know, I... You didn't placate them with, like, science or anything? I didn't do much science no i don't think i did one science class that you had to take yeah but even though i had a lot of science background so what do you think ultimately because the harvard education they do with like the it's there's a core curriculum right that that goes throughout the four years yeah that you you take to get the the decent well-rounded liberal arts education. This is before they sold it out. But I'll tell you that- You hear the cat?

Hello? Buster? Buster. Buster? Buster. Fuck him. Yeah, go ahead. The core was great.

I actually, many of the things I learned in the core are things that have influenced me in my work. For instance? Well, there was a class on, they called it Heroes for Zeros, which was like basically Joseph Campbell's mythology of heroes,

which I took for an easy class and I actually learned that structure. I took Bible first time, which was like, you just read the Bible. The hermeneutic code. Yeah, so just different things have shown up in the work so i think i actually at the time it was a pain in the ass but i actually think it it did what it did it

actually well-rounded gave me a lot those are the ones right yeah those are the ones that are going to inform more than anything else things that you're not the story you're interested in yeah the sort of never-ending story the the eternal narratives that are told again and again and again. So did Obama sit in this chair? He sat right in that chair. Oh, that's great. Yeah. You like it?

Love it. It's very comfy. Good. So that's what did it, huh? But the film class is available, so you're going to the Brattle Theater, you're seeing that shit, right? It was basically a documentary film department and uh we did a lot of docs but they gave you the cameras you loaded the cameras you cut the film on steam bags practical stuff right okay i still have scars from well that's interesting so they they they kept it

they didn't keep it it was pre-digital no but oh right but i mean it was it was probably in the journalism department no no it was in the arts department okay they had a nice art why. Why'd they decide on documentary if that's what they offered film-wise? No, one of the big professors is a famous person in that world. Who? Ross McElvey. He did Sherman's March. Sure. I remember Sherman's March.

So he's kind of the godfather of the department. And then these two guys, him at the time, Alfred Gazzetti, and Rob Moss kind of continued. So doc is art. Doc is, Doc is, Doc. Yeah, it wasn't as journalism.

It was more as, they were very much into the personal Doc. Right. The Doc where you're aware of the filmmaker just like Michael Moore does now and it's become very popular

with the guy who ate hamburgers all the time. Morgan Sprola. Yeah. But, but, but Sherman's March was one of the first that did that. Exactly. I remember that movie. Yeah. But Sherman's March was one of the first

that did that. Exactly. I remember that movie. Yeah, exactly. And he did another one. He's done a few. Yeah. He's very talented,

but he's very referential to himself. Sure. Well, that makes it charming and funny. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, some docs don't. You shouldn't do that.

Yeah. You know, like the guy who made the one about Durst, thest the killer oh that was great it was great but like i didn't need him in it oh he's a friend but i thought he did you know yeah it's true but he no he did a good job but every time he was in it sort of like no no great great end though oh yeah oh yeah no that was great i like i like good docs i think he's good i'm not sure he also did capturing the freemans which i I like a lot. And I like that better because that guy, the clown, the clown Freeman, he was around comedy

a little bit. Was he? Yeah, he was around a little bit. Interesting. I didn't know he was part of the posse. He wasn't part of the posse. Right, right. But he was on the periphery at-

It wasn't called, what did you call it on Monday nights? Eating It. I don't remember that. I thought it was like... I forgot. Well, no, but there was maybe there was another show at Surf Reality.

There was another show at Collective Unconscious. I mean, a lot of people didn't know that it was called Eating It. Okay, maybe that's why. You know, it was just Monday night at Luna's.

It was great. At Luna Lounge. I still... I have such an image of you there on the mic. I'm sweating. Complaining. Yeah.

See, now we're good. That's why you didn't use me in the movie. This guy just complains. I don't know. I don't think he can act. This guy's a complainer. I got to know Todd, so that's why. I love Todd.

I do not begrudge Todd anything. You know, I tried to put a tell in a movie, too, who I love. I love a tell. Yeah. Yeah. But it just didn't work out at the time. Yeah. All right. rudge todd anything you know i tried to put a tell in a movie too who i love i love it tell yeah yeah but it didn't work at the time yeah all right so so well that that's i think that's interesting to me uh that that you learned the basics of film editing yeah this documentary class just because the equipment was there was all that way and but it also you know you're not polluting your head with uh with the lofty visions of uh creative filmmakers you're sort of

on your own yeah and there wasn't at that time there was no like path from an independent filmmaker to spielberg or anything like it didn't exist but what are you seeing that's making you compelled to do film i mean what you know what turned you i it was before it was kind of it was before slacker which i think was a big influence on me when that came out. That that could be done or that you liked the movie? I liked the movie and also that it felt, you could feel the hand. You could see how it was made, sort of. And it worked and it connected to a lot of people.

But, you know, by the time I got to film school, like, Il Mariachi was just getting made and that was also another breakthrough you know so rodriguez and uh i think before that though it was you know in high school i walked i went to the movie theater in brooklyn at king's plaza i don't know if you know king's plaza in canarsie yeah and uh the movie i wanted to see was sold out and there was a poster with a goofy looking guy with a brooklyn hat on it i said let's go see that and turns out it was she's Gotta Have It. Oh, yeah.

And I had never seen anything like that. Yeah. I was just like, what the hell? I didn't know that something like that could exist. Right. Because you were used to mainstream movies. Yeah. Right.

That's all I grew up with. Yeah, sure. It's the, you know, we're of the late 70s and 80s. And that's, everything was those big, you know, early blockbusters. And so I saw that and that sort of sent me i discovered jarmusch after that and the kind of new york independent scene was like really exciting so that was when you're in high school i think uh yeah probably like end of high school early college that's a good time for it yeah but i always had a taste for that my taste was always slightly off

but now when you but like when you got into making film or when you were hanging around in Boston, did you pursue, you know, because like there's some elements of Mother that are specifically not American movies. Yeah. Well, I definitely probably was influenced a lot by European and Asian masters. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, because there's, there's a, there's a, the narrative is, is broken up and a lot of it is, is insanely visual, but not visual to in the, in a way to distract or avoid. Right.

Well, I guess that's a compliment. No, it is a compliment. Oh, thank you. No, I mean, you're utilizing, you know, film metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. Very intentionally, which, uh, you you know it's not spectacle well yeah well i like one of the great things of film is that it could become a dream yeah you know you don't have to be in a world of superheroes you don't have to be in a real world you can sort of follow characters through subjective thought you know yeah it's like

as we're hanging out here we we're making some eye contact, but you're looking over there, you're thinking about Buster. There's lots of other things happening in our reality. I'm pretty focused. I'm listening. You are. But that's interesting that you can show how people's attention drift. And cinema is the only kind of art form that can let you sort of follow a character through

their kind of personal experience yeah so when you made pie what was your student film though did you have to do a student film i did do a student film it was called supermarket sweep yeah inspired by the tv show remember supermarket sweep the game you had to run in and buy yeah you had a certain amount of time which they bring him back of course and you want to be my partner on the show sure i don't remember how the partnership works. How does it work? One guy runs, the other guy- Grabs the turkeys or something.

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. That's what you're offering me? Yeah, after all these years? I'm going to go on Supermarket Sweep with Darren Aronofsky as his partner. We'll be a great team. I agree.

Okay. I'm up for it. So you made that film. So I made it. It was kind of like a weird, it was with Sean, the guy who starred in Pi. And he sort of just goes on. What's he up to? He did a few other movies here and there.

Yeah, and then he directed a movie. He fell in love and married a girl from Morocco, lived in Tangier. Oh, that's interesting. And actually directed a film in Tangier and now is trying to do his second film. He's doing well. That's exotic and exciting. Very exciting. It was nice to go visit a good old friend living on the Mediterranean in Morocco.

It's like bowls and burrows. Very burrows. Very burrows. In fact, the first time I met Sean, he handed me a copy of Cities of the Red Knight. That's a great one. It's the pirate one. Yeah, exactly. And I started reading it.

I was like, what the hell is going on? Still, I'm perplexed by it. That's pretty perplexing. But that trilogy, I like a lot. That was the Western Lands, Place of Dead Roads, and City of the Red Knight. And the Place of Dead Roads is a Western. Yeah. And that one's pretty good. Yeah. It's easy to follow. Yeah, yeah, yeah Roads is a Western. Yeah. And that one's pretty good.

Yeah. It's easy to follow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a Western. It's kind of a homoerotic Western with occasional aliens and space action and a lot of talk of poisonous insects. And what was, it was a detective? No, it was pirates, wasn't it?

It was pirates. Yeah. And then Western Lands was the book of the dead that was their uh the egyptian one oh really yeah it's been a long time but they were fun i mean naked lunch is clear he's funny i mean you know he hilarious he had bits yeah he had bits it was sad to lose him sure but he lived a long time he did live a long time he did all right bill he did he did all right and Bill. He did all right. And he had a nice comeback. Sure he did.

I just picked up. I tracked down that documentary. Buster. Hey, Buster. It is Buster. It is Buster. Wow. We found him.

Hey, buddy. Come here. Come here, buddy. Buster, come here. Buster, come here. Buster, come here. Buster. Cats.

Come here, buddy. You got him? You bastard. That's good. I spotted him. I'm about to cry. What a fucking asshole. That cat's an asshole. I'm about to cry. I tell you.

Beautiful cat. Small, though. He's a very smart cat. And the thing is, is like, when they run off like that, there's nothing you can fucking do. Yeah. And he doesn't go. He's probably hiding for two days. Right, right, right. Okay, anyway.

So where were we? Oh, Burroughs. And then we went to. Oh, I tracked down that documentary. There's a documentary called Burroughs. Oh, I haven't seen it. It's sort of hard to find. Okay. And it's pretty great. I think I got it on the criterion collection i remember seeing it as screening in

boston actually in like the copley at the copley theater remember when they opened that complex down there i do so like and i was like hung up on it i think i can't who directed was it kit carson i don't remember who who but anyway was footage of him later it was all throughout like it was a pretty thorough documentary great but i remember seeing him on snl my freshman year of college and remember who who but anyway was footage of him later it was all throughout like it was a pretty thorough documentary great but i remember seeing him on snl my freshman year of college and not knowing who the fuck he was and i kept thinking like this is the guy that wrote tarzan like i like oh that borrows right so i was i was just a dummy and i had this little set and he was reading from naked lunch you know dr ben way ships doctor i, what the fuck? And it blew my mind.

And that started a lot of everything. But, oh, so anyway, so the first film, Pie, I remember that was an exciting time. You were the new genius. You're the genius of the Lower East Side. This guy who made this movie for a little bit of money in black and white. And it's fucking trippy. Yeah. You remember the tags, the graffiti we stuck on? Yeah, I of course i was there yeah yeah and i was like what the fuck

is this pie business it was very cool i i hired a bunch of friends from brooklyn to street team i tell them 25 bucks a can just take the stencils and put put it up everywhere i had five guys one night and we just bombed the city well what can what what drove the why were you possessed with that story pie yeah i don't know it was a lot of things i was thinking about um at the time um you weren't you didn't we're not brought up with a lot of religion no okay but uh i just uh there was just a i don't know i i think i had a i actually had a math teacher in high school who taught all the sacred geometry it was like an elective. Somehow I ended up in his class and he told all these mystical things about pi and how the Egyptians had the ratio in their buildings but then used a different one, a different.

And so like alongside of the Joseph Campbell stuff and the Bible stuff, you're like, this is the missing piece. The mysticism. Yeah, it's all. The mysticism. I like that stuff because I think people get lost in it and yeah oh yeah you can lose your mind in it yeah and that happened in the movie exactly you know it's like you know how far out can you drive your brain oh yeah right oh yeah which is fun but but then like requiem for a dream was like boom we're in color we're moving the camera around

yeah pro look at this fuck you look what i can do and i got movie stars yeah it was nice you got movie stars and marlin was good that was the first time it was sort of like this guy can act yeah he was surprised i made him read like three four times yeah and uh i think before he came in to see me he like stayed up for two days and you know didn't shower or something oh really he came and just wiped out and yeah i thought he was great and was that jared's first movie jared leto no he was already don't you remember he was a tv guy oh yeah he was on that uh yeah well probably it was a kid thing right yeah but girls liked them and but i i liked them i thought he was great and uh he's and Burstyn was great and Jennifer like was that

she's always good and what was that black dude's name oh uh Keith David yeah that's heavy shit man he was great yeah and Ellen Burstyn fucking amazing amazing kicked it just like you know jacked jacked jacked and just went for it and it was an amazing thing to see her do. It's like every take she was just ripped. Yeah. And it was great. It was great. And Cubby was, Hubert Selby Jr. was there while we were shooting it. And he's actually in the film.

He's the prison guard. Oh, yeah, yeah. I kind of remember that. Yeah, yeah. So, like, then to have Cubby on set. Amazing. Well, I'd have him read a section of the book before, like, when it was in effect. To the actors?

Yeah. Yeah. Like, before an actor would go, I'd have him do his, the of the section and it would and then we'd be like roll cameras okay let's action and it was just an intense moment i remember doing that when uh ellen was being electrocuted on the uh during that scene it was a really intense moment oh wow yeah what did he think how was the experience for him it's funny uh when he saw it the first time he didn't really say much but then at can when we premiered at the film festival um it was a reaction i don't actually talk about it but it was one of the great moments of my life well let's

talk about it i can't i don't talk talk. It's too special. Keep it personal. When Cubby died, there was a memorial for him at the Egyptian on Hollywood Boulevard. And it's funny because everyone who spoke were people he helped with addiction. Jerry Stahl. A lot of guys were up there and they all talked about it. And I remember my DP was there, Matty, and I was like, I whispered to him like I'm not in recovery what am I going to do talk to him you know I feel and he's like he's like that's a good reason

that you should talk because you know you got he made your life in a different way so I went up there and I told that story and I said this is the last time I'm going to tell this story so I'm honoring that but it was an amazing moment. Out of respect for him? I think it's also out of respect.

No, I don't think it's that. Although I have tremendous respect for him. It's because I think- Well, keep it private. Keep it personal. I think if you tell stories too much, they don't become yours anymore. And you forget the truth of them. You start-

Well, that's interesting. Every time you tell a story, you construct it. As a public personality. And you know that as a comedian. But I know that from talking to celebrities that's what i know it from because they hone their material of course yeah and i hone their public narrative of course and i do it on a press tour when i'm talking about the film sure i know you said everything we've said tonight no no you've actually gone a lot because you're just very loose but but actually i haven't actually had a chance to say anything.

I haven't promoted mother at all, but that's great. But, you know, so certain stories, I feel like you keep private because otherwise, even though they're amazing, they just lose their energy and they become something different. That's interesting. They get further from the truth. Well, that's interesting as a guy that, you know, that, you know, barters in stories. Yeah. Well, here's a good one. Every time you tell a story it becomes less true how's that is that yours i don't know but i'll take it it sounds familiar so but that's what i'm thinking right now it becomes less true because of what you're saying because you become more removed from the experience it's actually

not mine it's laurie Laurie Anderson's from her film. The film she just, did you see this film about her dog dying? Oh, no. I haven't seen her in years. She did a beautiful movie that's on HBO called Something of a Dog. Can you look it up? Oh, sure. Just so we could give it a plug. Yeah.

It was really nice and beautiful and very poetic, but I think that was- Heart of a Dog? Heart of a Dog. Thank you. Oh. Yeah. It was really nice and beautiful and very poetic but I think that was- Heart of a dog? Heart of a dog. Thank you. Oh. Yeah. Well worth seeing. Oh, it's new, huh?

Yeah, she did it maybe- 98% Rotten Tomatoes. There you go. Wow. Yeah, it's very beautiful. It's kind of about- I always liked her. It's her dog passing

but I think she's really talking about- Lou? Yeah. I imagine. I think he'd be honored. He'd be honored. He talks about being a dog several times in the songs.

Well, I mean, but I like the idea that it becomes less true only because you become less connected to it. Yes, and also it abstracts because you start to figure out things. Embellish, exactly. Bend it, hit the punchline but what do you think about memory in general is that something

you fuck with you mean actively no no no no I mean like like I mean just you know that that why we remember

how we remember you know is that something that interests you in the same way that math does I've got this memory I have that I remember

I was very young and I was like I know exactly where i was in the car i know exactly what i was looking like at looking at it was a traffic light blinking and i said to myself i'm going to remember this for the rest of my life and it's funny when i start whenever i think about memory or someone starts talking about that triggers so it's weird what memory is and and what you decide to you know what falls into the memory yeah and what you decide to, you know, what falls into the memory. Yeah. And why you keep them. Yeah. But I mean, I could remember you performing at the Lower East Side. And to be honest, besides Portnoy, you might be the only one I remember. Really? Yeah. Interesting. That stuck, you know? Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess there's an intensity,

there are frequencies, you know, like, because my girlfriend asked me the other night, like, what's your earliest memory? And I, you you know like i i kind of remember going to my grand grandparents house when they lived in jersey city where my my father grew up i remember driving into the city from bayonne you know with my grandfather to get tongue at cats's are you from bayonne no oh i my my family's from jersey but like they but my father's parents lived in Jersey City when he was younger. Then they moved to Bayonne. They eventually moved to Asbury Park. Right.

But I was very young. Yeah. But I remember living in Wayne, New Jersey and getting hit in the eye with a can. Yeah. I don't know. There are bits and pieces of memory. Do you still have friends from back then? From when I was that young?

Yeah. Oh, no. From New Mexico, from new mexico from third grade from hebrew school i got some like a couple cats i know from hebrew school there's one guy that i keep in touch with that i've known since third grade oh that's great yeah yeah it's odd yeah yeah i have a whole posse of guys from uh from manhattan beach that there's like six of us we get together all the time yeah and we met on tricycles it's nice it's nice they keep you grounded yeah they do and I don't have enough of them yeah you know I've lived a lot of different places yeah yeah that's the weird

thing about kind of old school with you yeah definitely you are yeah but like New York was just a period there was a Boston period you had a Boston beer but I was up there older you know when I was older there was a San Francisco period. There was two LA periods. Wow. A lot of different places. Yeah, yeah. But all right,

so I'm going to skip the two movies I didn't see and let's just talk about the, again, with the wrestler. You saw the wrestler. I did, of course, many times, many times. And I watch it again and again and I go like,

really? Like Todd and Judah? But they were both great. Yeah, they did good. They were both great. Mickey was great. I don't have Judah in mind. I cut off his head

in the first scene, but it was on purpose. It was about making it about the Ram, you know, and so I purposely did that, which is rude, but it was great.

Well, like, you know, I'm on a wrestling show now. Are you? On Netflix. I'm on GLOW, the gorgeous way to do wrestling. Which I've seen

the whole season. It's a great show i really enjoyed it fun right yeah yeah and then deep in its own way uh very meaningful very sad very your character is very it's great your character is hilarious and you're great convincing because a lot of comedians can't make that step by fine yeah but because i think certain comedy is just it's you just have to're delivering, you're a speech maker, you're an orator. Right, right.

Orator, or what? Order, order, yeah. You know, but acting has twists and turns and you have to find quiet, you have to find loud, different voices, I think. No, I think you're right

and you gotta be open. Yes, yes. Well, I appreciate that, but so what, you know, to do the actor. You were saying the wrestlers. The wrestlers, yeah. You know, to be,

but I've talked to a lot of wrestlers. Yeah. You know, over time on this show. Yeah show yeah i've grown to appreciate wrestlers yeah yeah as an entertainment and as a physically uh draining and uh uh you know insane skill but i watched a wrestler again recently thank you uh and i love it and i just like why that movie though like what was it that that compelled you towards that when i was 13 i got into you're a kid yeah for a year it was like it was like paul cogan was a bad guy uh balaban what was not balaban that's not bob about bob bob back backland i'd love to see bob balaban exactly

that would be amazing it'd be great uh anyway i can't remember the names of all the wrestlers back then but the samoans all that yeah so i i loved it and uh for a year um and i always thought there's got to be a world there um there's been a million boxing movies yeah and there hasn't been a serious wrestling movie ever yeah and there has to be a world there because there's so many people that give their lives to it so for a long time i had this project in my notes about doing something on a wrestler and then eventually i started to meet some of the old guys that i grew up uh you know idolizing you know lou albano i met and uh um uh i can't remember their names i'm spacing right now but mick foleyley? I did talk to Mick. Jake the Snake?

I never met Jake, but Mick Foley was later. Yeah. But he was interesting because he's all about the pain and doing crazy shit to his body. Oh, yeah, and he can barely walk now. Barely. I lived one flight up and getting him up that flight of steps to my house. Sweet guy.

Very nice guy. Very nice guy. Yeah. But messed up and brilliant. Very nice guy. Very nice guy. Yeah. But messed up and brilliant. Really smart guy. Well, it seems like, you know, that there was a little bit of like that spirit in that guy that Mickey O'Rourke fights at the end. Yeah.

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. You're talking about halfway through the guy with the staple gun? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that was a real wrestling promotion. I mean, the idea was always to stick Mickey Rourke into real wrestling situations with real wrestlers and let, and let the fun begin. Yeah. And so that there was this super hardcore wrestling that was all about blood and bleeding and, and,

and, you know, kind of torture of it. It's real. Totally. Like a, I mean, the audience knows it's fake yeah

but they know the pain is real right so they are you know when the guy jumps off a super high ladder they start chanting you're so dead you're so dead yeah and that just i saw this event so yeah the blood and guts stuff the blood and guts and i was just this is this is a world this is a world oh so that drew you in because i remember like those wrestling magazines when i was just this is this is a world this is a world oh so that drew you in because i remember like those wrestling magazines when i was a kid i didn't go in for wrestling but they were always just guys in unitards with blood all yeah exactly and we used to love it when they would bleed that was like the thing for some reason but was real blood no yeah they basically uh take a little piece of razor blade like we show the whole yeah that's right that's right yeah they take an aspirin

beforehand so that's in the blood. In the blood out and then they all they do is a little slice a little tiny razor slice and they get it and the sweat and the blood and after a few seconds of it it's just pouring out of them.

Yeah. And that's the that's the entertainment that they're like that's Well just like the you believe I guess it's somehow like

it's like people sort of in the back of their heads knew it was violent but then when you see blood how could that be fake? You know? I think it's just part of the magic trick of it.

Right, that's right. The spectacle of it. Yeah. And the awareness of that. Now, was that before Beyond the Mat? Did you see Beyond the Mat about Jake the Snake? I think it came out later. Barry, what's his name?

Documentary? I think it was simultaneous while we were doing it. And I think elements of Jake's, you know, in that documentary came through a little bit. Uh-huh, uh-huh. But like, it's brutal, man. The drugs, the, you know, what they put them through. And the fact that there are these circuits,

not unlike comedy, where you're playing B-rooms. Yeah. You're literally, you know, trying to make a little bit of the door, a little bit of cut, like a little bit. A lot of these guys do it just for, just like comedians do. Stay alive. Not just that, but they'll go and do an empty room just to get up and do it. Oh, my God.

But these guys are not just hurting their vocal cords. They're actually doing physical shit that hurts. I know. And he was genius. He did a great job. Well, Mickey's always been genius. Yeah. It was just about capturing him in the right role.

At that time, what was he like about it? What was was your relationship with him i think he looked at me like medicine he knew i tasted bad but he knew it was good for you for him you know it's that type of thing like every time he'd be like all right what do you want now but he knew we were doing something special and and he was very much like an old um an old biplane you to get the propeller going you had to keep and then as soon as it started purring, it was just beautiful. It's just like a Rolls Royce engine. It'd just take a while to get going.

Yeah, Mickey worked the old biplane. And then you go from that to Black Swan, which is about another physically taxing, kind of brutally harsh and sad on different levels. And so meticulous. You're very meticulous. Everything was very refined.

The comparison of the two, which are somewhat similar in the intensity of how hard they are on themselves. Yeah, the body as art. Right. But yet, you know, just the mess of wrestling compared to the anal control freakishness of ballet. Yeah.

High art and low art. But I guess that's been said before. Yeah. So that's a good double feature. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But like what, in Black Swan, what drew you into that world? I mean, you knew that was a world.

Yes. How you handled it. My sister was a dancer when I was a kid. But, you know, I was into Little League. But she had the posters and she was a serious ballerina all the way through high school. Yeah. And so I thought that there was a world there. And once again, I was like very similar to wrestling.

I was like, there's something there. People love it. It's been going on for a very long time. And all the little girls, there's like, isn't there like anorexia there and just like. There's so much stuff. There's so much stuff to get, you know, that's really tough. And you got a lot of it. tried to touch a bunch yeah and and she won the oscar right she did that was exciting definitely have you won an oscar i've been nominated for which one black swan oh damn yeah yeah is that something that's important to you i mean it's it's funny i remember as

it was happening the whole thing you realize it's a golden statue it's like a golden man it's like you want the prize though you know look it helps the work awards help okay and so it makes sense especially when you do weird films, to get, it's amazing. It's great. And I mean, look, I've won big awards. And the wrestler won the Venice Film Festival

and it was an amazing thing for the film because it really got it going and people started to take it. We were really nothing when we went to the Venice Film Festival. We were the last film

and we weren't even the closing night film. Even though we were the last film, they didn't give us the slot of closing night.. We were the last film and we weren't even the closing night film. Even though we were the last film, they didn't give us the slot of closing night. Yeah. We were just the last film. Right.

And then we got that big prize and that really helped us sell it and then it propelled it all the way to the Globes and to the Oscars and all that stuff. And that just raises the awareness because there's so many articles

written about it for that reason. So that's, I mean, that's what's important. I think those prizes can screw you up. And the important thing is to stay grounded and remember you got to work hard. Well, you're one of those guys that you mix it up.

You know what I mean? You do a lot of different kinds of movies. Do I? I think so. Some people say it's all the same movie. What? Really? I've gotten that.

I don't know. You can tell me Noah and the Wrestler are the same movie. What? Really? I've gotten that. I don't know. You can tell me Noah and the Wrestler are the same movie. I agree. You can tell me Black Swan and Mother are the same movie. No.

You can tell me that? You can tell me that, Darren? You can look me in the eye? You can say that to me? No, but like, what's your relationship like? Because I see that you do a lot of producing

and that's a whole other world. Yeah. How do you approach that? How did you get involved with the fighter, for instance? I don't know why I want to talk about David O. Russell, but you guys are friends that you do a lot of producing and that's a whole other world yeah how do you approach that how did you get involved with the fighter for instance i don't know why i want to talk about david o russell but you guys are friends or you know well just recently we've become much closer because he really supported mother he really dug it and and it seems like he's another guy that does a lot of odd movies definitely and i when he did spanking the monkey and i was a student

that was one of the films i was like oh this is great and it was very inspiring and to see his career how he did it was great i've never seen that fuck that guy you know how that unfolded was unbelievable which one spanking the monkey yeah that you know it was like oh that could happen yeah yeah yeah and then the other one with Ben Stiller and LSD. Oh, yeah, yeah. Disaster, 40. Yeah, yeah, that was great. Great ensemble comedy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Huckabees. It's like, what? I like it. Yeah, me too. I love it. Wacky, you know. It's like an Ionesco play.

Complete absurdity. It was great. And so, I don't know. So how'd you get involved with the fighter? I actually was on it before him. And I brought on the writer. And I think I brought on christian bell and i have it i think i think um mark walberg it was your idea no no no it was uh and i was developing and then i had just finished the wrestler and i was kind of

sick of the smell of bengay you know i was like, I gotta go to ballet. I'd rather, you know. Smell powder? Smell something different. Yeah. Because like. Chalk. It was a lot of sweaty, you know, sweaty locker rooms when I did the wrestler. How did you feel like he did with the movie?

I thought it was great. It was great, right? I think he brought a humor to it that I never saw, you know, and he had his wacky kind of. You know, thing that I wasn't thinking about. I think I was looking at a sports drama. I mean, Breaking Away is one of my favorite films, the bike movie. Sure. And I love that genre.

I love, you know. Oh, and Dennis Quaid, Can't Breathe Anymore. It's great. Yeah. It's great. Great. And the kid goes across the, I just watched it a couple of weeks ago. Oh, no kidding.

Still cry when he crosses the finish line. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, Rudy, another great one. But as a producer, like Jackie too, that seems like a movie that you could have made as well. I was going to do it for a while too. That's why I had it. I got it.

So that's how these producer things happened, that you were attached. Not all of them, but some of them, yeah. Sometimes we develop a project and I kind of don't feel it enough. And then I was lucky to find Pablo Lorraine who did Jackie and did a beautiful job. How'd you feel about it?

Oh, you liked it? I thought it was great. I did too. It was great. I just talked to Greta Gerwig today. Oh, great. She signed this job? Yeah, just a few hours ago.

Oh, very nice. Yeah, it's been a big day. So now, is there anything I can do for you? Do you feel like this conversation went well? Are you disappointed in any way? Well, what you could do is you could pause it, you could watch the movie, and then you could add to the end of this,

even though I'm not here, and then just say what you think about it, and then I could hear it when I listen to it. Okay. How's that? Is that a deal? That's a deal. That means you actually have to watch the end of it. No, I'm going to, and here's the other- I promise you it's the best thing I've to it. Okay. How's that? Is that a deal? That's a deal. That means you actually have to watch the end of it. No, I'm going to.

Okay. And here's the other- I promise you, it's the best thing I've ever done. Okay. Yeah. Well, see, now I just feel awful because I tried, man. I tried to get it done. I know.

No, you're a busy guy. I tried to get it done. I just got a link and then the LinkedIn worked. Okay. And then we had to, like, I had to get another link at 1230 this afternoon. No worries. And then Greta came over and then I'm watching it in the house and then I'm worried about other shit and the cat was missing the cat was missing okay but i'll do that for you that's good and uh and and i'll i'll i'll honor that i'll say goodbye to you okay and then

and in this place i'm telling my producer i will i will talk about the end okay good mother okay good and then i'll listen and listen and we'll see if... If I get it. Like, you gave me insight and you didn't spoil anything for anybody. Exactly. Because there was always the outside chance that if I did watch it, this is how I'm going to get wheeze and worm out of this. Yeah.

If I had watched it... It's not working. We might have ruined it. Mark, pleasure. Nice seeing you. Nice talking to you. Absolutely. Okay.

That was me and Darren Aronofsky. And I have to admit, in the name of transparency, I have to admit, I promised him I'd watch the end. I did not watch it. I don't know if it was subconsciously because I just didn't think I could handle it. I didn't know whether or not in my mind

that I'd seen enough. Maybe I'm afraid of it. Maybe I just forgot. Maybe I just forgot to handle it. I didn't know whether or not in my mind that I'd seen enough. Maybe I'm afraid of it. Maybe I just forgot. Maybe I just forgot to watch it. Maybe the allegory was too much for me already. Maybe reality in my life is intense enough to where the constant onslaught of what was happening in that film was too much for me.

But either way, I still liked it as much as I watched. And I will watch the rest later. I swear I will. I've been busy. And it's a lot. It's a lot, right? And I don't know what my life will be like if I watch the end of that movie. It could change everything.

It could change everything. Movies have that kind of power, you know. Never look at anything the same way. Maybe that's what I'm afraid of. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's so deep and so good and so confrontational that I'm afraid of changing my life forever. And I will confront that fear. I will, Darren, if you're listening still. I will. I will confront that fear. But that's where I'm at with it. It's like my Everest.

You know what? Let's spin it like this. And this is the best of all possible situations. Because there's no fucking spoilers. Because I didn't see the end of the movie. Yeah, that's how I'm going to do it. You know what? I didn't want you to end on purpose

because I didn't want to even be tempted to spoil the movie for you. Although it does seem like one of those kind of movies where there are no spoilers because it's hard to wrap your brain around to begin with. But no spoilers. That was my choice. Gratitude, man. wrap your brain around to begin with but no spoilers that was my choice gratitude man gratitude and and and fear everything's mixed there's always a blend always a blend it's never

it's never so clear it's never so it's never so one thing it's always a little bit of a mix going on. I'm going to play a little guitar and get out of here. Boomer lives! Boomer lives! It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those.

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