WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 873 - Steven Van Zandt

Episode Date: December 17, 2017

Steven Van Zandt, a.k.a. Little Steven, is an encyclopedia of rock and roll history. Steven talks with Marc about learning to play music by watching the Beatles, learning to be a performer by watching the Rolling Stones, and using those skills to form a partnership with his career-long collaborator, Bruce Springsteen, a relationship that Steven kept in mind when shaping his performance as Silvio on The Sopranos. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies

what the fucking ears what the fucksicles i I don't know. How's it going? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. Today on the show, Steven Van Zandt, Little Steven, is on the show. The guitar player for the E Street Band. Also an actor. Played Syl on The Sopranos.

He has his first solo album out as Little, in nearly two decades called Soul Fire. You can get that. It's bands on the road. But it's exciting, man. Steven Van Zandt here in the garage with his bandana on arrived in sandals. He was wearing jeans and flip-flops in my recollection. Flip-flops. I was a little nervous to talk to him, a little bit nervous, but after the first few minutes,

I think we got into a groove, we got into a thing, we worked it out. What's happening with you? You all right? Everything okay? How's work? You doing all right? How's everything with the home life? Okay?

How are the kids? All right? How's the boyfriend? How's the kids all right how's the boyfriend how's the girlfriend how's the husband how's the wife everything good how's your mom and dad everything all right holding up no yes no sorry you're gonna be okay you'll be okay right god damn man i am uh back at it running around as you know, some of you, from house to house. Not going door to door, but I'm recording here in this garage until I get my recording situation tight, the other joint. And it's kind of weird. I'm appreciating things more. It's strange when you sort of move things out of a house. It takes on a different smell.

I guess when there's not cats actively shitting in it three of them all times of the day and night it takes on a different uh different smell surprising huh that when your your house isn't filled with shitting cats and pissing cats how uh it changes that changes the uh the aroma of the home i've been making myself do the comedy you know it doesn't take you know i don't have to force myself but you know i need the outlet man i fucking need the outlet i need to work shit out you know what i mean it's just that's where i work shit out yeah i've been out there doing the work because there's a lot of stuff going on in my heart and my mind and And I got to, you know, sometimes I pull back from the standup, but then I realized like, well, who am I going to talk to this stuff about

if it is in a room full of strangers? If I don't get on stage, I literally begin to lose my mind in what seems to be a very real way. I sort of become isolated inside my own head. And I don't like, I don't like there's, there's always this emotional storm sort of brewing up inside my brain and inside my heart and i'm unable to communicate it in any you know normal way to other people and you know i'm constantly absorbing things and just feeding

that storm feeding that fire and it's just there's no there there's never anything passive in my brain like if i'm not talking or i'm like you know or i seem distracted i'm just shut the fuck down there's nothing passive i mean some things are are not on the daily docket and some things i just don't know about but but there is an agenda up there in my head and it requires vigilance to manage because it is not always a pro-mark agenda and i need to be on stage to uh to make sense of my world you know which is just a fucking mixture of my perception myself and the parts of the external world that compounding into my mind and in my eyes at all times i mean look relaxing would be nice it would be nice but i just have this this calling in my i don't know if it's a calling but i i find myself

saying like i just got to figure this out i just got to figure shit out i don't know if it's a calling but i i find myself saying like i just got to figure this out i just got to figure shit out i just got to figure it out but maybe that's just a bad habit because i'm guessing i'm not ever gonna figure it out i should just stop trying but i can't so there's stand-up that's the process and you know i made a little headway on some new bits the other night. Got me excited. I always think that there's not going to be any more bits after I dump an hour plus out into the world on a special, but then it starts. It just starts. I get excited about one thing and it just starts to bleed out and spread. And there's a freedom of mind that starts to

happen. And that's kind of the wildfire that I need. You know, the ones that are out in the real world, which are terrifying and destructive. I'd rather have the wildfires in my brain. You know, that's fine. That's fine. It's usually about 70% controlled and generally fueled by discomfort and discontent. I mean, and I've talked about this before. I think many of the reasons I feel those things have eased, but fortunately or not, there's a bit at the core, a bit of discontent and discomfort at the core that will never ease up until I let go one way or the other. Right? You can feel that. You could have like a peace of mind if you just surrender a bit. Let go.

Let go. Let go. You hear about that, you know? Let go. But I got to be honest with you i do not um i don't know i i am not really trying to let go which should really be the goal but i don't know what i would be if i did let go and clearly the fear of that guy is bigger than just being the anxious, dread-filled freak that I am most of the time. Just stoking that fire. 70% controlled in my brain.

My mental wildfire, 70% controlled. Always trying to fucking get it. You know, I don't want it out. So I'm just sort of managing it. Managing it. Then like new stuff grows behind it in a year or so. You know, once it's done, once it stops. Yeah, but never stops fully.

Stand up. Stand up is the treatment, the relief, the reaching out. I mean, I must assume all of us have that a bit at the core, that discontent, that unanswerable stuff that itch yeah i mean everybody has that right we also we all sort of know it's a rip-off right this whole thing right a joke that we know the end of right we know that we know what we know the punchline we we know it we know that that final turn of phrase, don't we? All right, so it's Christmas. Maybe you should go by waiting for the punch.

Words to live by from the WTF podcast for your friends, relatives, and family. You know what I mean? Get it where you get books. So Little Steven is here, and as I said earlier, his first solo album is out in nearly two decades. It's called Soul Fire, and it's a it's a it's a soulful it's r&b record man it's good big band it's a big band and it's uh it's cranking man and you can also see him with his band the disciples of soul in brooklyn and red bank new jersey this week go to little stephen.com for tickets and he just released a cover of the

ramones merry christmas i don't want to fight tonight you You can get that as a digital single. This is me and little Steven. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the I'm too small for this mindset hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. Mind your business. you'll never leave Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series

streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply again so when you're touring like does it wear you out? I mean, Jesus, you're a little older than me.

Do you get tired? No, I mean, you're kind of like... Always tired, you know what I mean? That's right, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't get jet lag because I'm always jet lagged, you know what I mean? It doesn't really affect you that much, you know? You get into that zone where you're just sort of half awake all the time. Yeah.

Then it's time to play. My whole life. You just described my whole life. It's wild, but I guess, you know, what else can you do? Do you handle free time well at all? Can you do it? No, I don't really have any. You know, when you're a writer, you know uh of any kind i think yeah you

never have any free time you know yeah that's true but like are you able to sit down maybe on a boat or you know at home or in another country or on an island anything no no you can't do it no i had a vacation once 1978 and i didn't like it that was it i didn't get it. That was it. I didn't get it. Yeah. Where'd you go? Maybe that had something to do with it. Well, no. My wife got me tickets to the Super Bowl in Miami, which is nice.

Sure. Are you a Miami guy? Yeah. I like it. I mean, I've always wanted a house on the water somewhere, and I never have done it. It's like one of my fantasies. I'm keen to keep alive. You might want to buy it a little inland now.

The water's creeping up. What's one problem? The hurricane thing also is kind of like, you know. I'm looking more like Mediterranean, something like a little calmer. Get out there, yeah. Maybe off the coast of Italy somewhere. Exactly, but it's just a fantasy i'm never gonna probably do but uh that's interesting that you know you you uh like i have those fantasies and and but i i'm i i believe that you have a bit more uh uh revenue than i do so you would think that buying a house don't be so sure i can do a lot

of things i get you know yeah uh you know making money and holding on to it is not one of my things, man. You can make it, but you can't hold on to it. I mean, you know, who else travels with a 15-piece band? Yeah, right? I got 30 people on the road. I'm playing clubs, okay? Yeah. You understand?

I got an arena show in clubs right now. It's for the love of the craft, for the love of the music. It's an expensive hobby. Let me just explain that to you right now. The record sounds fucking great, though. Thank you, man. Thank you. When I listen to, I haven't listened, I did two things today that I never did before.

I listened to your new record, and I listened to Hearts of Stone, which you produce, right? Yep. And I was never like a Southside Johnny guy, and I hadn't listened to him in a long time, and I just put it on, and I'm like, you know, the theme of the sound that you are part of

that I have to assume that you helped invent runs all the way through it, and it seems to go all the way back to, like, Stax and to, you know, that kind of stuff, right? Yep. Because this new record, it's a real, like, soul record. It's a real R&B record. Yeah.

Full force. Yeah, yeah. I just decided, you know, only go back to what I'm most known for, you know, what I'm most uniquely known for in terms of my identity, which is that rock meets soul thing that we created with Southside. Right. On those three albums, and then also did a reunion record in the 90s,

which is probably the best of them all. The reunion with Southside? Yeah, called Better Days. You get a chance to hear that one. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's probably the best one of them all. And then I carried it into my first solo album. And then all five of my solo albums

were completely different musical genres. Every single one of them, I just changed completely because it was all about the politics back then for me. And the music kind of came second in a sense of complementing whatever I was saying. So I wasn't worried about consistency or career or anything like that, which was quite naive looking back on it, of course. But it was just an artistic adventure for me. I wasn't looking at it like a career, like a business. Right, but you're also delivering the message. It's all about the message.

Yeah, yeah. So this is the first time, and it was because of the political atmosphere, how different it was in the 80s than now. A very, very different political atmosphere. And so I felt... It's pretty bad now. Well, I mean, the lyrics of the songs hold up shockingly well. From the 80s.

Yes. Which is good and bad, okay? Yeah. But the atmosphere back then was I felt obligated to be, you know, to shine some light on things that were kind of hidden and people thinking Ronald Reagan was God and I really didn't. And there's a lot of bad things going on around the world, you know? Yeah, sure. And I felt like, you know, somebody needs to, like,

start talking about this stuff in a bigger way. And so, you know, and then, you're looking for your justification for existence. You know what I mean? Did the world really need another romantic album of love songs from a side man? You know what I mean? I didn't think so. Let me find something that's unique so I'll be the political guy. And that was like what, for Voice of America?

All of them, all five, really, plus Sun City. Right, right. Sun City, I remember Sun City. I was very excited about Sun City. Yeah, it was very, very successful. And it made a difference, I think. Made a difference, brought down the government, if you call that making a difference.

Got Mandela out of jail. Yeah, we did some good things back then. But it was, again, a lot of that stuff was like, you know, it was hidden, you know? All that bad stuff we were supporting around the world. Now, I got no reason to explain Donald Trump. I mean, you know, he explains himself very well every single day. And I find that liberating in a funny kind of odd way.

I feel like, wow, I can make a record now that's not political without feeling guilty. Right. Because by default, this is the most transparent administration we've ever had

because he can't shut up. Yeah. Thank God. Thank God he has that quality of like this complete, you know, it's an odd kind of, you know, it's kind of a

paradox because he's oh nothing he says is true yeah but everything he says is is weirdly honest and at the same time it's like his his true feelings are quite obvious but he's you know even though everything he's saying is probably a lie you know and also as an east coast guy you're familiar with the character very and he's really simple to understand it. And also, as an East Coast guy, you're familiar with the character. Very. And he's really simple to understand. It's just all about the money. And if you understand that, it solves a lot of the problems, you know, like in terms of

trying to understand motivations and things like that. Just think of it as all about the money. Which probably will keep us out of World War III. Maybe. Because that's going to... Unless he finds a way to profit from it. You know what which probably will keep us out of World War III. Maybe. Because that's going to, well, unless he finds a way to profit from it. You know, you know what I mean? But now he's the front man for a band of fucking craven, you know, fascist and religious fanatics.

This is the point. Yeah. Now you're on to the point. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This is the danger right now we're facing is not Donald Trump. I think he's just a massive distraction from the real problem,

which is the Republican Party. Dismantling the whole thing. Well, I'm just, you know, I carry, my attitude is like, we need to save the Republican Party, okay? This is my attitude, all right? As a Republican? No, as an independent.

Yeah. I feel, since we can't get a third party together in this country, which is sad, we really do need one. Okay. We're probably not going to get it. So we need at least two. All right?

And we need two that can have a reasonable discourse. Right? That have intelligent and calm and reasonable people who can reason with each other. Right? Sure. And my father was a Goldwater Republican. Yeah. Ex-Marine, Goldwater Republican.

You grew up with that. Yes. I was the generation gap, me and him. And, you know, and I look back to that and I'm like, he would not recognize the party at all. Sure. You know, the true Goldwater Republicans are like, more like libertarians, of course. Yeah.

You know, they're not, you know, religious and forcing their religion on people and all that. Well, you still got those guys around, but now there's a whole new breed of like, I don't give a fuck about anything Republicans. Well, yeah, but it's religious-based. Some of them, yeah. Because now, I mean, it's only two issues, really. And when it comes down to it, it's only two issues where they're completely irrational on the one hand and un-American on the other issue, which is the environment, which, you know, I've never understood how the environment became a democratic issue. You know what I mean?

Sure. Isn't it all the same? Survival of the planet. Yeah. I mean, like, so what pisses me off is these nice little terms, global warming and climate change. I'm like, why can't we just call it poison? Can we just call it poison? Pollution?

Stop confusing people. You're poisoning the ship we're living on. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's poison. You understand? How are you in favor of poison? I don't quite get that. So that's just the irrational part of the Republican Party.

And then the other issue is it's equality. You know? I mean, that's completely anti-American, un-American to not believe in equality, whether it's for women or for gays or whatever it may be. Race, everything. But that's all based on religion, you know, in my mind. But like, Goldwater Republic, that's interesting. So you grew up in Jersey though, right?

Yep. So when you were a kid, were you always going at it with your old man? Yeah. I'm telling you, we were the generation gap that people talk about. We were the exact opposites for a while there until they threw me out of the house. Were you born in Jersey though? I was born in Boston. Oh, yeah?

Yeah, yeah yes for seven years and you don't really remember that not much no i don't remember my i remember my grandfather taking me to the italian section oh yeah the north end but anyway that's all i remember but uh yeah my mother remarried and uh this uh so this is the guy that the dutchman adopted me and got me the dutch name and so that's who you see as your father. Yeah, I never knew my original father. But I'm 100% Italian. Did he pass?

Yeah, many years ago. Oh, yeah. So I never knew him, never met him again. Oh, so like, but he was alive during your childhood? You just never saw him? Right. Yeah, well, you feel all right about that? Yeah.

Unlike the guy who adopted me, that was the ballsy move. Yeah, yeah. In the all right about that? Yeah. I'm like, the guy who adopted me, that was the ballsy move. Yeah, yeah. In the 50s, man. Yeah. Adopt, you know, to marry a woman with a kid. Did he have kids? Well, there are two more after me. Oh, really? I mean, you're a mom.

I got a brother and sister, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wild. Good guy? Yeah, yeah. Very conservative, ex-Marine, Goldwater Republican in every sense of the word. So when did you get thrown out of the house? Same time I got thrown out of school last year.

Last year of high school. And what year was that? So the country must have been coming apart. 67, 68. How did you avoid the draft? Well, I got drafted and went down there and had a long talk with the guy. And I'm like, so explain this to me again. The long talk.

Because I don't get it. Yeah. Just explain it to me. If you can explain to me why I'm going 10,000 miles away to kill somebody, I'll do it. I have no problem killing people. If that's the issue. If it has to be done. I'll do it.

You know, I ain't got no problem killing people. You know, if that's the issue. If it has to be done. You know, I mean, when they, you know, when they land on, you know, when they land in Belmar here, you know, I'll be the first one down there with a gun. I mean, you know, that's.

Belmar. But, you know, until they, you know, until they're attacking, you know, Seabright, I don't get it. The boardwalk. Yeah. The boardwalk. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. So just explain it to me, you know. And he starts telling me about communism, you know? I'm like, all right, stop right there. What's communism?

Yeah. Exactly? I couldn't even begin to explain what that was. Uh-huh. You know, well, it's,

you know, it's dictatorship, kind of. And I'm like, well, all right. And I didn't even know about the history

at that point. So in the end, you know, we had this conversation and I'm like, you know, this ain't for me, babe. And he said, okay, thanks for dropping by. Yeah. Come on. Yeah, he says, fill out this column A, column B. He says, check that whole column B. Which is like a psychiatric, conscientious objector.

Yeah, psycho, drug addict, homosexual. He just went through the whole menu. Yeah, yeah. I said, you know, I'll go, sure. I'll be all those things. You know, but, you know. Well, was that early on? I mean, it's surprising that they let you do that.

Well, you know, I don't think they were looking to put people in jail exactly, you know. Yeah. If you really felt strongly about it, I don't think they really cared, you know. Yeah. Unfortunately, they made an example, you know, out of Muhammad Ali, you know. Right. really felt strongly about it I don't think they really cared you know yeah unfortunately they made an example you know out of Muhammad Ali you know right which is a tragedy when did you start playing uh just a year before the Beatles hit you know I'm like my grandfather started teaching me the guitar like 60 I was 12 or so which would 63 60 yeah yeah 62 63 your grandfather yeah my Italianian my mother's father

yeah um taught me the song from his town in calabria every town had a song yeah and so i started learning that and then um of course february 9th is the big bang you know 1964 everybody for everybody your generation man that night that night was it without a doubt yeah the big bang of rock and roll man you know Without a doubt. Without a doubt, the big bang of rock and roll, man. And for some people, a little older, the big bang was the same TV show eight years earlier. It's wild, though, when you think about it, and I know you do think about it because you're in it all the time, is that rock and roll as a form is not that old. What, 57, 50?

What do you think was the first rock song? Rocket 88 or Rock Around the Clock? We talk about that stuff, yeah. I mean, you could say that. I mean, certainly Rock Around the Clock was the first big success. Yeah. You know, that was the first number one rock and roll record. Yeah, yeah.

You know, on its second release. Sure. As a theme song to the movie Blackboard Jungle. That kind of opened the door. Yeah. And then soon after, Elvis had the number one jailhouse with Heartbreak Hotel. That was right after.

Yeah, it was right after. Yeah. And so that was a one-two punch that really said, you know, here we come. You know, here comes this cult. This cult is about to stage a coup on the charts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it slowly, slowly started to take over

because rock and roll was not pop music yet. It was still a cult. A cult. Really up until, you know, it started to, in the 50s, I mean, the brave white DJs like Alan Freed, you know, started playing these black records for white kids. Yeah, for a little money. A little money on the side. Hey, pay up that's money well spent all right yeah

money well spent yeah yeah you know and and he took the money after he played the record not before all right which you know i wish somebody would do for me but that's the story you know so it was not pay all the yeah per se right all right it was it was gratitude payola per se. Right. It was gratitude. Yeah, thank you very much. Here's a little something. That's right. Nothing wrong with that. In my mind.

So like, okay. What do you need? I got a few bucks. Well, it started, you could say Rocket 88. You could say How Many More Years from Howlin' Wolf. Both of which were produced by Sam Phillips, that unbelievable genius. For me, Lieberstahler were the beginning of the modern songwriter producers. Yeah.

And they began to have that bigger sound. They brought strings in. Phil Spector, of course, would have that big sound with horns, but not featuring the horns so much, but they would be part of that big 50-piece band. Layers, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what I related to earliest on was Motown. Motown was really the first to start combining strings and horns and background vocals, and to me, the Motown model is what I'm using now, you know, pretty much.

Yeah. But you had the Four Seasons also making big records. So the big records were Lieber and Stoller, Phil Spector, Motown, Curtis Mayfield later. Yeah, Mayfield. You do a song on there that's a little Curtis Mayfield, a little Isaac Hayes on the new record. But also alan toussaint out of new orleans too yeah so yeah you know you get that combination of uh memphis yeah and you know and atlantic

isn't that interesting that like as a as a guy who grows and becomes sort of uh uh you know a student of all this stuff that still at the beginning the thing that delivered the message was the beatles and then you had to go back and get this stuff i never heard of any all this stuff, that still at the beginning, the thing that delivered the message was the Beatles. And then you had to go back and get this stuff, I imagine. Oh, I never heard of any of this stuff. I never heard of Chuck Berry. Right? I'm telling you right now.

I never heard of Muddy Waters. I never heard of Bo Diddley. I never heard of these people. The only reason I knew Elvis Presley's name was because my grandmother used to buy his records and dance around in the living room. It's wild, right? I'm like, who's that, Nana? That's Elvis Presley.

That's all I heard. So when you started playing, what were you playing? Well, right after the Italian folk song, I went right to the Beatles. When the Beatles hit February 9, 1964, keep in mind, we got introduced to the Beatles halfway through their career.

Yeah. Okay? They've been going since 58. They were gone in 69. So we met them halfway through their career. So they were quite sophisticated. They were sophisticated beyond what we could relate to in a direct way, but they opened up a new world to us.

It's like, wow. With that first record or the second record? Yeah, first record. Well, I mean, we got the second record thinking it was the first. Yeah. All right, the Meet the Beatles was actually with the Beatles, which is actually their second album. Yeah.

But we got it first. Right. Which was twice as remarkable because of the composition level at that point. It's kind of crazy when you think about it. Yeah. But they were too perfect. The harmony was perfect. The hair too perfect. The harmony was perfect. The hair was perfect.

The clothes were perfect. It was, here is another world, which was the most important thing. There was another world that was out there that we could now fantasize about. The aliens have arrived. Especially when you're a misfit. In Jersey. Freak. Yeah. Not fitting in anywhere, right?

Were you? Wait a minute. Maybe there's hope. Not fitting in anywhere, right? Were you? Wait a minute. Maybe there's hope. Were you uncomfortable with the infinity? Oh, no. I couldn't relate to anything. Nothing. Nothing.

Zero. I was like an alien from another planet waiting for my ship to arrive. Get me back to my planet, baby. Where's my agenda? And here it comes. Right? That spaceship landed in Central Park and the Beatles came out, right? Yeah.

But they were too good, you know? And then, you know, and then Dave Clark Five, same thing, you know? Really, really good. But luckily, four months later, the Rolling Stones came, okay? Oh, the Stones. Which just changed everything. A little dirty. A little dirty, a little loose.

And they didn't have the harmony, you know? You know, a little sloppy Which just changed everything. A little dirty. A little dirty, a little loose. They didn't have the harmony. They were a little sloppy. Blues were blues. Clothes were different. And most importantly, the moment that changed my life for real, another moment that changed my life, was seeing Mick Jagger for the first time. He was the first guy in show business that I had ever seen

who did not smile okay yeah i never seen that is that true that's true if you look think look look at all the show business people up till then right they were all you know having a good time and kind of entertaining entertaining yeah it was show business sure well him not smiling to me yeah was okay this is a lifestyle this is not show business uh-huh okay right and that's what i really related to i was like okay that's that's that's right because the beatles with the matching outfits that was still show business yes clearly very polished very that was show business because that that goes back a bit the matching outfits they just they were white guys doing it all right

that's so then so then the stones come out it's like hey what's with the scarf where'd that guy get those boots why is that guy unhappy hey there's a way of life that's right big difference yeah okay and to me that was it and so of course they made it look easier than it was i mean you know they were also fantastic which you know but early on like what could you notice that difference because what would you say the difference was between the beatles and the stones essentially essentially the beatles were a pop vocal oriented group yeah and the stones were a blues instrumental oriented group right they had instrumentals on their records sure yeah right

away yes right yeah what was that you know that that was weird. Right, on that first album. Yeah, it's a 2120 South Michigan Avenue. Yeah, that's right. You know, and now I got a witness. I think they had two instrumentals that maybe. On presenting the wrong stuff. Maybe one of them was on 12 by 5. But, you know, they were doing instrumentals right away.

You know, both Mick and Brian were playing harmonica. Did you listen to that new one, the New Stones Blues record? Yeah. He's back on the harmonica, and he sounds good, man. Yeah, no, it's good. It's good. It's wild. Good, you know.

Yeah. I wish he'd spend a little more time on it, but, you know, come on, Mick. You are good at this. A couple more days. Get great at it. You know what I mean? He needs somebody encouraging him to take it to that next level. But as a record, of course, it was wonderful.

Well, maybe Mick will get it. Maybe he'll get it. It's a great idea. Well, he was good. But Brian was better. On the harp. Yeah. And Mick, I think he could be good if he actually applied himself to it.

No, I think, yeah, because he can single out the notes. He's got a feel for it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is some good hard play. But it should be great at this point, which it could be. Yeah, I think he puts it down for a decade or two. Exactly. You could tell.

It's like, okay, he's kind of getting back into it. But come on, Nick, let's work a little harder here. Come on. You guys are still the greatest thing. And that was the most successful record, I think, in decades for them, which is great. It was a pretty exciting record somehow. Brought them back to their roots, which is great.

Could have been their first record. That lineup of songs could have been their first record. It was great. It was a great idea, and I'm glad they pulled it off. What was your first band? Well, I joined a band, a local band called The Shadows. In Jersey. In Jersey as a singer.

Yeah. And then shortly after, that was 65. By 66, I had my own band called The Source. I had stolen a name from a group in New York. I used to go up to Greenwich Village on the weekends at the Cafe Wah and see groups in the afternoon. Late 60s? This is, yeah, 66, 67. Oh, yeah?

Who'd you see? Well, I just missed Jimi Hendrix. He was just there. And then he went to England. Yeah, yeah. I just missed him. But I saw the only notable name really was in that group, The Source, that I took the name from, was a guy named John Hall,

who would later become a congressman. Oh, yeah. That's your big rock and roll in the late 60s story? And he was phenomenal back then. He was a genius, really, a musical genius. And he became a congressman. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. Got voted out at the moment in the bloodbath of a few years ago. The Source, that was the name of the band? So I took that name, and that was my first real band. What were you playing? I was playing guitar, lead guitar, and singing. Original show? Oh, no, no.

No, we were doing album tracks. We were doing some top 40. We would do some Temptations and some hits at the time. But we were also doing tracks from The Who's first album and The Young Bloods and Buffalo Springfield. Oh, yeah, yeah. Sure. Yeah.

So by, you know, by 67, 68, you know, the FM radio had started and the album thing had started. So we're kind of combining some of the hits on radio on am radio with some of the fm stuff you know when did you start writing i started writing right away and didn't really like anything i wrote for for seven years okay literally i was like i was writing and just throwing them away and like just wasn't getting. And you were playing all down the shore mostly? Yeah, it was a wonderful time to grow up. Wonderful time.

We had all kinds of places to play. We had the high school dances. We had the VFW halls. We had the beach clubs. What town would you grow up in? The middle town. But it was just whatever it was, 20 minutes from the ocean. So it was just wonderful minutes from the ocean.

It was just wonderful. Our generation was very lucky that way. We had actual teenage nightclubs. Sure. Latin De Vu was one of them. What was your first electro guitar? I had an Epiphone, and then I traded in for a Telecaster. So you were a Tele guy.

Yeah. And one day, me and Bruce had become friends. And we actually became even closer friends by running into each other in Greenwich Village on the weekends. He was doing the same thing I was. In the late 60s? Yeah. Seeing the bands there who were a year ahead of New Jersey. So we would pick up things and go back and make our bands.

So you ran into him there? Yeah. So we became even closer friends at that point. But you just knew him from the block kind of thing? From the circuit. Yeah. He was in a band. You were in a band.

Everybody, there were no bands in America February 8th. Yeah. The Beatles played February 9th. February 10th, everybody had a band. All right? It was like that. Mostly in the garage. Yeah.

Right? Rehearsing. Yeah. Maybe a dozen groups in our area came out of the garage and actually played. So you knew them all. Right. His was one of them and mine was one of them. What was his call?

He had the Castiles. Oh. I had the Source. And he was singing and playing? Yeah, yeah. We were both- Front men? Well, actually, yeah, but he had a couple other singers also in the band as well.

Yeah, I think you mentioned that. Yeah. Yeah, but he had a couple other singers also in the band as well. Yeah, I think you mentioned that. But I was the main singer for me and lead guitar and arranger and basic leader. So you got the source. He's got the Castillos. And you see each other around. Then you run into him in New York on a weekend. So we became even closer from that. Did you talk about music right away?

Oh, yeah, that's all we talked about. Yeah? That's it. We were both. Was he a Telecaster guy then, too? Well, no, this is the point. So, no. And so at some point, he came to me, says,

you know, I'm thinking about switching. Can I switch to the Telecaster? He asked my permission. You know, because you couldn't, you were your guitar in those days, right? So I was the telly guy. So he asked my permission to become a telly guy. In the neighborhood.

And so I said, all right, all right, I'll switch to something else. I'll switch to a Saturday. You had to switch? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Everybody had their guitar, their sound, their thing. Uh-huh. And yeah.

So he switched to, he went to Tele. He stuck with it. He stuck with it. He's a Tele guy. Yeah, man, all the way. So when did you guys start playing together? Right after that, we started, you know, being a different band every three months, four months.

Yeah. And sometimes he'd play in my band. Sometimes I'd play in his band. Yeah. And we started playing together right then, 68, 69. What was that first band called, your band? Didn't you guys do a hard rock band together? Was he in a hard rock band?

Well, yeah, he started, yeah, Steel Mill. Steel Mill, right. It was like, I mean, hard, yeah, hard-ish. I mean, it was hard for then, but... Were you in that one? Yeah, I played bass in that band. And I had the Sundance Blues Band. Sundance Blues Band, sure.

And he played rhythm in that for a while. And these were bands that played gigs, all these different bands. Yeah, yeah. The Sundance Blues Band, was it a blues band? Yeah. Straight up? Yeah. Yeah.

South Side Johnny in that one. And, you know, we're just finding our way, you know what I mean? You go through different phases. Had a country band for a while. Did you? What was that called? Oh, geez, something stupid, you know? Some other guy was the main guy.

Yeah. Albie something. Yeah. And what was the name of that joint you all started living in and hanging around down there? The Upstage Club. Yeah, right. The Upstage Club was the main, you know, that's what I mean. That was, you're there from 8 o'clock at night until 5 in the morning.

Yeah. For kids. Right. This is for, you know, no booze. Yeah. You know, and, you know, there's nothing like that now. So you could play all night. Yeah. Yeah. And didn't you get you no booze yeah you know and you know there's nothing like that all night yeah yeah and then i meet people you know were you all living at a surf a guy who made surf well that was a little lady yeah he bruce lived in a surfboard factory off

and on yeah i'm sure that was good for the lungs yeah uh you know oh you didn't live there uh no i stayed there a few times but i was was like, this is not for me. Then me and Bruce moved to an apartment in Asbury, and then we had another apartment where me and Southside Johnny and others lived together. So, you know, we're kind of living together more or less. But it was at that kids club, the Upstage. Yeah, that was like the place where everybody met, where we met Southside Johnny, where we met, you know, like Vinnie Lopez and Danny Federici and Gary Talent.

And all of those guys were living either in Asbury or Neptune or, you know. Yeah. So we were kind of like the Jersey Shore guys who came down. So I quit playing at some point, like 72. I was like, man, we missed it. We missed the boat. All the great stuff's done. Oh, yeah.

It's over. Yeah, it's over. So I started working construction on the highway. And I'm playing football on the weekend. And I broke my finger. Still bent. Yeah. And to exercise my finger, I joined this band playing piano.

Yeah. And that band ended up becoming the backup group for the Dovelles on what was called the Oldie Circuit. Right. Now, the Oldie Circuit was an ironic and tragic sort of thing because all of these, the British invasion came over and basically put all their heroes out of work. Okay? All right?

At the, I mean, in their 30s. But also introduced this country to the blues. Well, it did both. It introduced us to all of their heroes, which we all learned about, and then put them all out of work at the same time. Right. A lot of them had like two or three hits, right?

That was it. And if you had two or three hits, you had two or three hits for the rest of your life. Right. No more recording. That was it. It was sad. It was sad hits, you had two or three hits for the rest of your life. Right. No more recording. That was it. It was sad. It was sad, yeah.

So they were all pissed off being called oldies in their 30s and early 40s, right? And they're touring together, right, on a bus, five or six of them. Yeah, well, yeah, the Richard Nader oldies circuit. Right. Which, you know, I played the garden for the first time with that. Oh, yeah? With who? You know, everybody.

Oh, yeah? Oh, you were just a backing band. 12 acts. Oh, no, I was with Dovels. Yeah. And then later with that. Oh, yeah? With who? You know, everybody. Oh, yeah? Oh, you were just a backing band. 12 acts. Oh, no, I was with Dovells. Yeah. And then later with Dion. Oh, Dion. But, you know,

in those days, you had Little Richard, Jugberry, Bojella. I mean, everybody was on those shows. So you played with everybody. Oh, yeah, so you were there. Yeah, I wasn't playing with them all, but on the same show.

Nice. It was nice for me because I'm meeting all these cool people, but they were all pissed off, you know? You felt the bitterness. Sure, sure, sure, yeah.

Because they were stuck there to make a living. Yes, so suddenly they had their lives taken away, as opposed to the very next generation, starting with the second generation, starting with the Beatles and Stones and the second generation, the fans would go with them forever all the way to stadiums and are still with them. Yeah.

Still, right now, the biggest acts are McCartney and the Stones. And those kids are now 70. Yeah. But why did that first generation get shafted? I will never know. It's just one of them crazy things. But anyway, so I'm on that circuit. Yeah.

And I said to myself, I've been writing songs five, six, seven years, whatever it was by then. Yeah. And I just hated everything I was doing. So I said, let me go to school in my head. So where does it start? And I'm thinking about it. Looking back in history, I say, OK,

it starts with Lieber and Stoller. Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller, to me, is the beginning of songwriting in that sense that became the songwriting that we know. And uh that became uh the song the songwriting uh that we know you know so let me go and doc pumice too or doc well yeah they're all the pumice and schumann and you know the brill building and you know all that you know right but for me you know i i just picked that libra installer for me you know which song was your libra installer song well i liked i mean i i dug everything back to hound dog with big mama Thornton. Oh, yeah. And Kansas City was no slouch.

Jailhouse Rock, Stand By Me. Those are their songs? Yeah. No shit. Yeah. Ruby Baby, Forget It. The best. These guys are like the killers, right?

Yeah. So I said, OK, I'm going to write a Libra Stola song for the drifters in my head. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so I wrote I Don't Want to Go Home. And that was the first song I felt like, okay, that's a real song. You know what I mean?

That makes sense to me in a historical sense, you know what I mean? Yeah. But I met Benny King, but I didn't have the courage really to give it to him. And at that point, I wouldn't have known what to do with it anyway. So I ended up giving it to Southside Johnny, and that became the first record. But that was the beginning of songwriting for me. And that was the Drifter song.

Yeah. That's wild. So I recut it for this new album in the original way I pictured it, which was the lead singer answered by the background vocals. Right, on the one I just listened to? Yeah. I could listen to it more closely. Yeah, yeah, it's a persuasion.

I use the persuasions on the record. Yeah, yeah, oh, okay, great? Yeah. I got to listen to it more closely. Yeah, yeah, it's a persuasion. I use the persuasions on the record. Yeah, yeah, oh, okay, great. Yeah, yeah. So that was, you know. I know you did that Blues is My Business.

Yeah, I actually did a couple covers which I've never done before which was so much fun, you know. And business is good, that's great. That's a great line, right?

Yeah, it's great. I know, I wish I wrote it. Blues is my business and I'm open for business in your neighborhood. Blues is my business and business is good, business in your neighborhood. Blues is my business, and business is good. You know? I was like, yeah.

OK, that's what this about says it. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, it's an Eddie James song I covered. And I covered a James Brown song also on this album, which is the first two covers I've ever done in my life. Really? Yeah.

So it was a nice kind of opportunity. Yeah. You record, right. Yeah. By the time you get in the business, you know, in my life. Really? Yeah, so it was a nice kind of opportunity. Yeah. That you record, right. Yeah, you know, by the time you get in the business, you know, you get your own thing going, and, you know, you know what I mean? It's not like, you know. So this was a nice opportunity to introduce myself

and including some roots, you know? A lover of songs. Yeah, so I put blues on here. I put a doo-wop song on there. You know, things that, you know, really where I'm coming from. Production's real crisp, real good. Yeah, thank you. Pops, man. Yeah, man, that there, you know, things that, you know, really where I'm coming from. Production's real crisp, real good. Yeah, thank you.

Pops, man. Yeah, man, it's, you know, me and I got a great engineer, Jeff Sanoff, and Bobby Clear Mountain mixing it, so, you know, he's good for me because I got a lot going on, you know, and he keeps, I like a wall of clarity, you know what I mean? I want you to hear what everybody's playing. Yeah.

But at the same time, not too much separation. Yeah. You know, so it's a, I got a weird kind of philosophy with music that, you know,

Bobby really seems to understand. Which is the wall of clarity. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't want too much separation because I, you know,

stereo was the beginning and the end for me. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I don't need stereo, I don't need digital, you can just wipe all that stuff out, okay? Yeah. And I'll be just fine, you know, stereo was the beginning of the end for me. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I don't need stereo. I don't need digital. You can just wipe all that stuff out, okay?

And I'll be just fine, you know? But, you know, I want that sound when you walk into a room and a band's playing. So you can pick out everybody's playing, but it's not, it's integrated. It's not. I can feel that. Now that you say that,

like, you open the door, it's like, wow! Exactly. And then you're like, oh, that's that guy! And then it kind of all comes together when you want it to, or you can focus on that guy.

That's right. As opposed to what Phil was doing, which was genius, but, you know, he was intentionally combining things so you don't really know what's going on. You know what I mean? Yeah.

He's got 50, 60 things going on, and you're not hearing them all. Yeah, it's a very elaborate white noise. Yes, but he picks out the important parts you're going to hear. The tambourine. He makes sure to riff. He makes sure you hear the riffs. But yeah, it's a slightly different concept from that but it comes from libra's to all his productions it comes from motown comes from phil speck a little

bit and and you know the curtis mayfield records you know yeah yeah uh with the impressions yeah and then after even his solo stuff you can hear all that stuff on this record yeah and alan and alan toussaint in new orleans you know, I just got a few of his solo records. I've been getting into the vinyl thing lately. For me, all this stuff is new. Things are always new to me because I never heard it before. I mean, you know, when you grow up, you hear the hits, you hear the music that you brought up with, and now I'm 54,

and every day it's like, I never listened to this. Oh, yeah. It never ends. No, no, it's a lot of stuff, man. It's like, I never listen to this. Oh, yeah. It never ends. No, no, it's a lot of stuff, man. It's a lot of stuff. When I started the radio show, I'm like,

okay, I gotta go back and listen to every record I ever made because I don't want to miss anything. Good luck. You know?

Yeah. And I'm still working on it. It's sort of amazing. Like 15 years later, I'm still like, damn, I never heard, you know.

I just listened to 10 years after his first record, like for the first time. There you go. i don't know you know it was all right you know there's a few things that get better some things get better later yeah so you're getting this education with these cats so you know when do you and bruce sit down and start hammering this shit out well i came back from that oldie circuit and started

south side johnny adberry Jukes. Yeah. And then. That was your band. Yeah, me and Johnny. Is he still around? Yeah, they're still doing very well. Great.

Yeah. And then we found this club called the Stone Pony, which the roof had caved in, and they were going to close. This is like, I'm picturing it. I may be completely making this up, but I picture it being like July, and they wanted to stay open like one more month to get the summer crowd, and then they're going to close the place because there had been a hurricane, and the roof kind of had caved in.

Yeah. And so we went to them, and for the first time in history, we said to them, listen, we'll play for the door. Yeah. We'll keep the bar, but we're going to play whatever we want. Now, no one ever had done that before. Yeah. Nobody in New Jersey.

Yeah. You don't have to play the top 40. Right. What they called the top 40 back then. So the kids can understand what's happening. Yeah. Dance. It was all about dancing back then.

People were dancing to rock and roll, keep in mind, right? Right, yeah. You know, nobody's seen anybody dance to rock and roll in 50 years. But back then, you danced to rock and roll, and your job yeah you know nobody's seen anybody dance to rock and roll in 50 years but back then you you danced to rock and roll and your job you were a dance band you got them dancing or you didn't work you know yeah and that was the same thing i'm sure that was true for the beatles in in hamburg and even the stones you know yeah in in richmond you know you know it's crawdaddy club you know it was important to get people danced you know, at the Crawdaddy Club, you know, it was important to get people danced, you know, in those days. Anyway,

so we got a chance to play whatever we wanted to and we were just starting to write, like I said, we snuck in I Don't Wanna Go Home

and said it was a Drifter song. Yeah, yeah. I didn't say it was an original, you know. But we started playing all kinds of different things,

Otis Redding, Sam and Dave, album tracks, you know, from those guys. With the Jukes? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Temptations, album tracks, and, you know, we introduced reggae,

Harder Than They Come had just come out. And obviously you're doing it with your sensibility. Yeah. You know, because you guys are interpreting this music. Yes. Yes. So we had that right away. We started to have a horn section and so it started it started to be a a combination of rock and soul right away yeah right and uh

figured that was going to be our our thing you know and it just happened organically yeah so we did that for a year or two and uh i was not only leading the band, you know, but also, you know, managing it and doing all the business. Yeah. And, you know, working with those club owners, they were all paying the ass. Sure. So after a year or two of that, oh, so Bruce starts hanging out because his first two records did nothing. And they were about to drop them. Asbury Park and East Street Shuffle.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they did you know 10 000 records but what was he but when you guys saw when he got the deal was everyone in the neighborhood like here he goes one of our guys is oh yeah yeah it was it was thrilling yeah you know that he got signed uh but uh you know he's making nothing yeah in in the in the music business. Sure. We got 1,000 people a night, three nights a week. I mean, I haven't made that much money since. I mean, it was like my entire overhead was $150 for my apartment.

And we're making like $9,000 a week. So Bruce starts hanging out with us. Yeah. And he had a little notoriety because he was signed. Was he depressed? No. No, no, no, no. He was always very philosophical about it.

I mean, I'm sure he wasn't thrilled about it. Right. But at the same time, he wasn't going nowhere. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you know, we were doing what we did. Like I said, for us, it became a lifestyle now. Yeah.

It was not, we didn't have that show business right right you know that that desperation right that show business desperation you know in our heads we were like hey we're doing this whether we're getting paid or not or whether we're famous or not you know so we're in it we're in it man because we ain't belong anywhere else yeah we're complete misfits outcasts yeah you know freaks yeah right yeah we weren't gonna yeah no jobs no there was no job that was it was right for us no plan b man no yeah that's right yeah and that's how you that's that's the only way that's the only way man because everybody who had an option in our neighborhood took it yeah all right yeah and there's me and bruce you

know stand last guy standing man you know yeah so you know anyway so he's hanging around so he's hanging around and then so he puts out

a third album Born to Run and he's got he's got like seven gigs booked and that's it and like the seventh gig is a bottom line

which is like a showcase it's like kind of like the rocks he was he put out Born to Run you're not on Born to Run? No. Not at all?

No. No. And so that's just coming out. And he has seven gigs booked. And that was going to be like curtains, man, if something magical didn't happen. So he says, listen, I want to put the guitar down for a minute, you know, and just front.

So come play these last seven shows of mine, you know. So I was anxious to get out of town. I was tired of fighting with the club owners all the time. We had to threaten to go across the street to go from five sets a night to three, which we had done. Right. Right, which was, again, made history in New Jersey because, you know, you had to play five sets a night. three, which we had done. Right. Right, which was, again, made history in New Jersey because, you know, you had to play five sets a night.

Yeah. We got it down to three, which I thought was a major victory, but it was still a war every week, you know. Yes. And they're always trying to fuck you one way or the other, you know. Sure. And so I said, you know what, let me get out of town. You know, fine.

Right. So I left for seven shows, and I stayed seven years. Yeah. That was it. Yeah. Good time? Yeah. Yeah, it was.

It was. It was fun. That same, right after that, so seven shows, that bottom line thing was so successful, we then came to L.A. for the first time and played the Roxy. Oh, yeah. The trip to L.A. And, to LA. And that was really exciting because you look down from the stage and there's Jack Nicholson and Warren Beatty and whoever, Cher. I was like, wow. We had never seen any celebrities before, you know.

Right. You know, like, I guess, you know, celebrities in New Jersey, you know, unless they were mob celebrities. You know, so like, you know. But, you know, so that was really, really very exciting. And you went over to England with him, right? Yeah, yeah, that was freaky. The big Hammersmith, yeah, that was a hell of a show right yeah we did four shows uh two in england because like it feels to me that like the americans

weren't locking in as quickly as it happened over there well yeah but there was no reason for us to really go other than frank barcelona our genius agent kept insisting on us going over there and thank god we did because now we are you know yeah very very successful over there. And thank God we did, because now we are, you know, very, very successful over there. But it was not a typical thing Americans did. No, you know, it wasn't so much to the audience, but people just didn't bother to go over there, you know. Do we have to?

Yeah, yeah. It was like that. Meanwhile, you know, we are now, it's like saving everybody's lives. Those who did go, you know, very happy they did. But what was remarkable about that first trip to England is for no reason at all, somebody filmed it and recorded it, you know. And I mean, we were nothing. We were absolutely, you know, there wasn't even any hype or anything.

It was around that same seven, it was around that first tour, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, third album. After Born to Run. The Born to Run tour, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so when Bruce later, when he was thinking about a re-release, whatever, 20, 30 years later, fairly recently, and he's looking in the archives and he saw a video.

He said, oh, maybe somebody took a couple of minutes of a song. He pulled it out. It's an entire show. And recorded like 24 track. I mean, for no reason whatsoever. We didn't even know it was happening. No. We didn't know it was happening.

We didn't know why it was happening. Why would anybody have done it? We were nothing. We meant nothing. And it was just a wonderful little thing because we were right in between. Time capsule. Yeah, we were right in between being a club band

and an arena band, right? And so you capture that wonderful transitional moment. And it's also very freaky. The lighting is very freaky because Mark Brickman, our light guy, that was the first time we ever played a theater. Yeah. Now in theaters, the spotlights are in the balcony, right?

Yeah. So we're doing a soundtrack. Follow spots. Yeah. Yeah. And they're right in your eyes. Yeah, for the first time. So I'm like, you know, is that necessary?

And Bruce was like, yeah, that's bugging me too. So we made Mark Brickman shut off the spotlights. So if you look at that film, which is in the Born to Run re-release, it's very freaky. It's all backlit. Yeah. So Bruce will come up to the mic to sing, and you don't see his face. You just see an outline. You just see like an outline of him, which is really kind of cool.

You'll never see that again, because obviously anybody else would have had a spotlight. Because you wanted to see the audience. Very important. The spotlight will blow you out. And still is. I still make them turn it down. You don't want to feel like you're just floating in space. I hate that feeling. That's why I can't use the ear

monitors. Same reason. You need to be in it. Are your ears holding up all right yeah not bad yeah so darkness is the first one you did pretty much with him yeah and and like because like i i tell you man like going over like some of your stuff and and just we and also listening to a lot of the stuff because i i talked to him it it seems like you guys you were either on very much the same page or you influenced each other i think both yeah both yes yeah yeah without a doubt we were strengthening each other because you know there was nobody else you know i mean we it was religion to us so we were we were

deep in it yeah you know and and also listening to very much the same things back then yeah and also we're hanging out so he's watching you in south side i mean he knows that that the jersey sound that's evolving he's part of it yeah he's got clarence comes in at some point yeah right yeah well that was all our respective tradition yeah which was just in our dna i i don't know why you know but it was in our dna you know the next you know if you were born a year or two later, maybe it wouldn't have been. But we were still, what happened to that great 60s thing? We were still very much addicted to what I call the Renaissance period.

That Renaissance period was so influential to us, and we wanted to continue it somehow. Yeah, the structure is a little different. It's like it's rock and roll but that soul structure the the minor chords and it's sort of like the storytelling it's not you know it wasn't mainstream at that point right it never was it never was really we we by the time we our hybrid began whether it was my hybrid or bruce's hybrid uh neither one was fashionable neither one was trendy it was completely against what was going on it's interesting though because like you know like those first two bruce records like you

know asbury park is almost a van morrison record you know in some ways right and and and east street shuffle started to evolve and then the born to run that tune boom the specter thing and then by the time you guys do darkness yeah then it's like, that's it. Darkness is where it happens in a lot of ways. Yeah, well, I would say Born to Run was the beginning of a break that was dramatic. I mean, his songwriting and everything took a focus that was a bit more, it was just another evolution that was really a noticeable evolution at that point,

It was just another evolution that was really a noticeable evolution at that point. You know, from a local kind of, you know, singer-songwriter to a more formalized, okay, this is rock and roll. Production. Yeah. Yeah. I thought you were on board and running. You didn't do nothing? Nope. Didn't help out at all?

No. Yeah, a little bit of the horns on 10th Avenue, you know. Arranged the horns a little bit. Yeah,'s about it really oh yeah yeah you were around though yeah yeah i was there you know i was hanging around but uh by then uh the jukes had started you know right yeah so um you know and on darkness like you know like the one thing like talking to him that like i didn't realize till after the fact right because i mean you guys you produced a couple records with him like right yeah river and born he was yeah yeah is that you know and i don't know why i didn't put it together

because i i watched that i find the the jimmy i find the doc with that but that was born to run that was making that right yeah jimmy was the engineer on board right yep but but no matter what he did in in and i was mad that i didn't recognize it he he's in he's very hard on himself bruce's it seems well back then it was it was you know it was a very tough period i mean born to run into it's right through darkness was uh you know bruce struggling to find find himself and where he wanted to go and, you know, fighting the realities of the business and fighting with his manager at the time and a lawsuit and trying to regain control of his publishing, which he had lost temporarily.

You know, suddenly things were spinning out of control. He's on cover of Time and Newsweek, which he didn't really want to be right yeah he didn't want to he didn't want to be considered hype you know you want to be when I want to be a real thing right yeah so he's kind of in a hurricane of of distractions and and you know so the records took took a lot of time and took a lot of uh a lot of blood you know but also i imagine the way you're describing it probably a nice escape like to be in the studio and to have that thing that one thing no no no no that didn't happen until i produced the record okay The river was the opposite.

Because basically, we go through this darkness thing. And I'm helping with the arrangements at that point, but I'm not a producer yet. And we start to do the river. And I said to him, I said, listen, man, I can't go through this again. I'm sorry. I can't watch you go through this. It's nothing to do the river and i said to him i said listen man i i can't go through this again okay i'm sorry i can't watch you go through this it's not no nothing to do with me what's the all night kind of nitpicking oh no forget it you know months and months and months of this torture you know

torture yeah i said to him i said listen man i i i don't want to see you go through this again you know so i'm just going to split you know and says, no, no, no, no, no. You're going to make this record with me. You're going to produce this record with me. I said, for real? He says, absolutely. So I get us into the power station. And Bob Clearmountain, who I had checked out, right?

Yeah. And it was kind of a camouflage. But basically, I had to try and get where I felt we needed to go. With Bruce. With Bruce, we were in the right place suddenly. Suddenly we found the right room and the right sound. And now it's a pleasure to go in and record. Okay, finally.

He trusted you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But he could hear it. Everybody could hear it. And John Landau was right there. He wasn't, nobody was objecting to it.

It was just finding the right room. But I had done a whole lot of research by then, trying to figure out why the drums sound great on every 50s and 60s record and sound terrible in the 70s. You know? Yeah. You know, why? What's going on?

You know? Yeah. Well, I figured it out. It was the way they were biked, you know? In the old days, there were mic put overhead. Right. You know? And then suddenly, 70s, it began close miking.

Stick a mic in the bass drum. Yeah. The engineers took over temporarily. So a set had like nine mics. Yeah. Well, it wasn't that as much as the close micing, you know, so they could have extreme separation and control. Right, right, right.

You know? Yeah. Well, you know, extreme separation and control, not exactly rock and roll, good for rock and roll, really. Yeah. So you want to have the overheads, you know, and you still want to have some separate micing to control to some extent. But, you know, so it was that combined with the tuning.

I realized all of the early guys, all the early drummers were trained by jazz drummers, and they learned how to tune the drums. Plus, they're playing with their wrist up. Right. Right? Yeah. and playing lighter yeah and what i discovered was the lighter you hit a well-tuned snare drum the lighter you hit it the

bigger it sounds no shit okay yeah if you hit it you know like like you're you know hitting like a caveman yeah right bonham style it it it blows out the snares the The snares do not resonate. Oh, right. I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So it's just like, boom, thud. It's a thud. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Basically. So I'm discovering all this stuff now and anxious to put it to work, you know, which

we did. Yeah. And, you know. And you came out with the river. Yeah. What a vast, like, elaborate musical landscape that was, huh? Yeah, man. Yeah.

Because it was all building up inside him. He actually has started writing like a demon on darkness. I mean, Born to Run, I think he wrote nine, like eight and a half songs, and like eight of them were on the record. You know what I mean? Right. I mean, I'm not kidding.

It wasn't like a ninth song, right? That was it. Darkness, he writes 60 songs. No shit. You know what I mean? Yeah. That was it. Darkness, he writes 60 songs. No shit. You know what I mean? We need 10. Yeah. And you can tell from these outtakes,

there's a lot of really good stuff. So he starts, during that darkness and river, I don't know, I never counted them, but it's probably 100 or 120 songs. Did you record them all? Yeah. No shit. And at this point, a lot of them are out.

On tracks? Yeah, tracks, the darkness re-re point, a lot of them are out. On tracks? Yeah, tracks. The Darkness re-release. Yeah. The River re-release. Uh-huh. They all accompany with an outtake album. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. That's great stuff. Not good. Not like, oh, it wasn't good enough to be on the record. Yeah. This stuff should have been its own album. Right. That's how good it was.

I wonder why he didn't do that. Well, he was, again, being very, very hard on himself in terms of the identity and you know and that's what he needed to do at the time you know i mean he he realizes now because he thought some of the stuff was too obviously influenced by this or that oh yeah you know it wasn't enough him right you know what i mean but but it was he was quite wrong about that because if you listen to it now, it's very obvious. It just all sounds like him. Yeah, definitely. And yes, there's some influence in there, so what?

Yeah. You know? Everyone's influenced. But he had to do what he had to do. And Born in the USA, you did too? Born in the USA, I did. We got to the point at that point where we said, let's take it to the next level and not rehearse at all.

We went in the studio. He taught us a song once. Yeah. Right? We had a couple of arrangement things maybe here and there, and then we would cut it. And then if he wanted to sing it again, we played it again. So on the eight or nine things I did on Born USA,

nothing, no overdubs. Zero. You just repeat the whole take as a band. Yep. That's crazy. Yeah, no reason. It's a silly thing to do, but we decided to do it. But it made a difference. It had to make a difference.

Well, I don't know. I mean, looking back on it now, it's just kind of a silly thing to do, really. But we just wanted to maybe prove to ourselves that we could, you know. We wanted to, you know. I mean, the river was the turning point where we finally captured what the band sounded like on a record. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Because, you know, Darkness to me was a tragedy. I thought it was some of his best songs, some of his classic songs. I hated the way that thing sounded. You did? Yeah. Why did that happen? Because we didn't know what we were doing. Rock and roll is not one craft.

We think it's one craft. It's five crafts. Okay? Right? You learn your instrument. Okay? Yeah. You learn to analyze records and see what's going on on those records,

which is the beginning of learning how to arrange records. Right. You learn how to perform. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. And that's a very important step that people are skipping these days. Mm-hmm.

Right? Because you need to learn how to interact with an audience, how to interact with your band, see how them songs affect people. And most importantly, because you've analyzed the records and you're performing cover songs, you now have established standards. You have these very high standards, which comes in handy for the fourth craft, which is writing. Right?

You go to write a song, well, now you've got to write something that's in the ballpark of what you've been playing live, right? Yeah. Which is your favorite song, okay? You have something called standards, right? Yeah. If you skip that stage, you don't have standards, which is what's going on now all right and then the fifth craft is recording yeah right well you know it took us whatever four you know what was that three four five albums

to get it to get to get that did you ever think about later going back and re-recording the darkness stuff i i begged him to let me at least remix it. Can I please remix it? He said, what are you, nuts? He said, people have gotten used to this thing by now. It never bothered him, in fairness. It never bothered him. It never bothered anybody, really, but me.

I was just like, man. This thing could be so much better. So much better. No remix. He wouldn't let, I did it. You know, this thing could be so much better. So much better, you know. But yeah. No remix. He wouldn't let me mess with it. No, no, no. That's hilarious.

So how did, because I listened to the sort of the demo of Born in the USA on tracks, the sort of like haunting song, Born in the USA. How did it shift from that to the anthem? Well, he was messing around at that point with some acoustic things, some electric. I mean, that was where Nebraska came out of that period, too. Right. Reverby, acoustic.

Yeah, that's just like acoustic stuff that he was fooling around with. Because he always had that in him, that part of him that was that folk guy. Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, that's the one thing, you know, where we're most different probably. Yeah, you don't got that in there. No, but I appreciate it.

Yeah. And I was the first one to recognize that Nebraska should be released. You know, to me, he did it as a demo and i was like this ain't no demo man oh so born in the usa was originally on those demos yeah maybe yeah you know it does sound like that it's a really haunting that one it was in that same period you know so so you know but whatever and then you kind of you know you toured with him for a while and then you went your way yeah i split man i just said you know i didn't produce you know most of born usa and and then split and then i made two solo albums while they were still working on Born in the USA.

Yeah. You know, yeah, I got obsessed with politics and got into, you know, just trying to, you know, shed some light on things I felt needed, you know. And you produced some other stuff, too, for Asbury, for Southside Johnny. Yeah, I did three Southside records. Gary U.S. Bonds? Well, yeah, Bruce started that and then brought me into that.

We did two albums with Gary Bonds. And then, yeah, I would start producing other people after that, but mostly friends. I never did it as a living, as a job, exactly. So when you get the call, who got the call for The Rising?

How did that come together? Well, I guess we had the reunion by then, right? I guess. Yeah, 2002. Yeah, he just decided in like 99. Yeah. He just decided, let's put the band back together. And we had been talking about it through the years.

We stayed friendly all those years and I just said, you know, maybe it's time because, you know, you look at these polls that come out every year,

you know, greatest bands of all time, you know, and I was watching, you know, you start off as like, you know, number one or so,

you know, then you're like two, three, five, ten. You're swipping, huh?

You know, by the seventh or eighth or tenth year, you know, you're like basically off the charts, you know? I was swipping you know you know by the seventh or eighth or tenth year you know you're like basically off the charts you know i was like you know maybe it's time to come back and remind people that uh you know the best band in the world i'm saying i mean you know it was it was certainly one of them and we're no longer in the top 10 okay so i think it's time maybe to come back remind people like what it's really all so you guys were already a band when the horrible thing happened.

And then you guys, you know, because I remember that time after 9-11 where, you know, like there was this weird kind of like, well, when's Bruce going to chime in? You know, and then that record, like what was the process of making that thing? Yeah, well, that was Brendan, Brendan O'Brien. Yeah. He had brought in a new producer right

yeah who did two or three albums I think and it was this sort of a different method it was a whole

different methodology Bruce started to do demos in his house and and then and then have the band kind of

you know pop in yeah you know like replace his stuff. You know what I mean? Oh, interesting. It's a whole different methodology.

Yeah, as opposed to the old way, which was working the songs up with the band, you know. Right, right. You know, we were always very, very, we made a lot of contributions in the old days, you know, to the arrangements and stuff like that. This was, you know, it was a transitional thing to get back from being a solo guy

back into being a band guy which uh interesting it's a tough transition to make you know what i mean and you know he has both things in him but but it took a minute to to you know get comfortable with that again i'm sure you know but you guys still tight yeah oh yeah very yeah very he came out to support my first couple solo uh shows Yeah, did he get up there and play? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just made sure I supported him on his opening in Broadway. How was that? Great.

Was he tell some stories and play some songs? How's it work? It's different than you'd think. I mean, it's a little bit of a surprise because it's quite a different medium, you know, and he has again redefined himself in that medium. You know what I mean? Well, I just talked to him last year, you know, and he was very thoughtful, and obviously the book,

he kind of revealed a lot about himself. I was, you know, he's an intense guy. Yeah. So what is the element to the show? You can't get tickets anymore, so tell us, Steve. Well, I get a feeling. I mean, he hasn't said anything to me about it, but I think after Broadway,

I can't imagine him not taking it on the road a little bit. Yeah. So maybe he'll come to L.A. with it, but I don't know. I don't know that, okay? That's not me giving any inside information. We didn't talk about it. But it's that good. If I was him, yeah, you know what I mean?

I'm looking at what he's doing. You got to go to London. You got to go to maybe Stockholm or LA, Chicago. So is there a story? So yeah, it's book related, certainly. But he comes out. And what I was worried about, because I went to a preview as well as the opening, and I was hoping that the audience would respect

the protocols of this medium, okay? You know what I mean? Behave themselves. Honestly, God, I was in a little bit of a panic. Are they going to start calling out songs? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Is it going to be like, oh, no?

Yeah. And they were totally cool you know well a lot of them are grown-ups now steven yeah but that doesn't mean you don't call out songs and start you know clapping along and doing things like yeah it's not appropriate oh no you know what i mean but he comes out and starts talks first before he plays anything so So it sets up this, okay, you know, it's a serious night. And even though he's got some funny things in his raps, but, you know, he establishes a sort of seriousness to the medium, you know, that everybody just adapted to immediately,

which is wonderful. So, you know, you'll love it. He's got hell of a presence, you know. Yeah, and that's the thing. It's a small theater. It's under 1,000 wonderful. So, you know, you'll love it. He's got a hell of a presence, you know. Yeah, and that's the thing. It's a small theater. It's under 1,000 people. Right, yeah. So, you know.

Yeah. You're in Bruce's head for a little while. Yeah, man. And that is a really, it's an interesting place to be because, you know, again, the book obviously revealed a lot. Did you think he got it right in the book? Yeah, it was really, really, really well written. I was even surprised because it didn't have to be that good to be good.

I was like, wow, this is better than it needs to be. Did it jog into your memory a little bit? Did he pull things out where you're like, oh, shit, that's right. Yeah, some of the early stuff the early stuff was fun to read about yeah yeah yeah you kind of go back to that feeling of it's a it's a it's an odd liberation when you you know when you got nothing going on you know what i mean uh-huh oh yeah yeah absolutely all ahead of you nothing yeah well you don't know what's ahead of you that's the thing that's right you can't really truly enjoy it because you don't know what's ahead yeah you know but you're just there you know you're just there kind of living

in the moment and there's a certain liberation you know liberating feeling to that too so what about the uh you know we talked a bit about this record but the acting thing you enjoyed that is that something you're going to do more yes i loved it and i'm going to do more of it you are i got oh yeah yeah i'm going to try and create my own show now. Did you create one? No, I took what I learned from Sopranos and took it into Lilyhammer. Right.

But I started, you know, that one craft became like five because I started, I co-wrote it, I co-produced it, I directed the final episode and did the score and the supervision. For Lily Hamm. Music supervision, yeah.

So I want to continue that. I want to explain. Play another mobster? We'll see, maybe. People like me as a mobster. You don't want to mess with the people too much. I'm one of the very few people on earth, okay, once an audience defines you, that's it, okay? First of all, you're lucky if an audience defines you because that means they found you, right?

So, you know, and that's very rare for somebody to go from one medium to another because, you know, they define you as that, you know? Yeah. And I'm very lucky because they completely accepted me as an actor. It was such an interesting, I just re-watched The Sopranos like a year ago, the whole thing. Yeah. Again, just watched it all the way through. I gotta do that. I gotta do that.

It's pretty great, you know, because like you forget that there are some episodes that are sort of like, well, that was an interesting one. Like, not a lot happened. No, you see, this is a mistake that they're making in TV right now. Yeah.

Okay? Everybody thinks it's all about plot, you know, plot driven. Yeah. You know? Yeah. We can't remember three plots in the entire Sopranos, right? No. It's all about plot you know plot driven yeah you know yeah we can't remember three plots in the entire sopranos right it's all about character man right it's character yeah and that's what i'm trying to you know that's what my scripts are you know and that's what i'm trying to

tell these tv people i'm like listen man you know i'm sorry but name me like five great tv shows out of the hundred that are on right now and then you can't name them you know when the thing about your character in the sopranos was weird because like initially And then you can't name them. You know, when the thing about your character in the Sopranos was weird because like initially, you know, you're like, is this guy clown? Is this a comedic guy?

You're right. Because you kind of think that it like the beginning, like, cause you were so quirky, but then all of a sudden you're killing people. And like, Oh fuck. They were,

they were very well-written characters. They were, they're quirky. They're eccentric. They're not what you necessarily would think is a is a

cliche did Jay think of you as funny well we had we had that in the character yes but subtly really

you know it was it was you know the you know this very cool guy

who was in charge of keeping Tony Soprano alive, basically, and the only character on the show that did not want to be the boss, right? Yeah. Very comfortable in that role. Oh, yeah. I remember when he had to be the boss for a minute. It was not good.

No, not comfortable. And so, you know, we used a little bit of humor when he would vent his frustration, like at a card game or at his daughter's soccer game. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So that was the humor. It was like, let him go nuts when it doesn't really matter. Right, right, yeah.

But in life and death matters, he's totally cool. He's right, showed up. You know, yeah. Are you like that in real life? Do you feel like that you've been that way for Bruce or for other people in your life? Well, yeah, I basically used my relationship with Bruce for Sopranos. Yeah. That's what it was. As a grounding influence? Well, yeah, I basically used my relationship with Bruce for Sopranos.

Yeah. That's what it was. As a grounding influence? Well, that's what it was. That relationship of being the guy behind the guy and, you know, being there as an underboss, as a consigliere, you know, as an advisor, you know, as a friend. Right? That was it.

I mean, when I wrote the biography of my character, I'm like that, him and Jimmy, you know, him and Tony Soprano grew up together and had that relationship all along. Right. Which helped me because that was the first time as an actor, so I was able to rely on what that dynamic was. I knew sometimes I had to be the only one bringing the bad news. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was the only one not afraid of them. Right, right. You know, the only one. Yeah. Right? Because we were lifelong friends. Yeah, yeah. So when you was the only one not afraid of him. Right, right. You know, the only one. Yeah. Right? Because we were lifelong friends. Yeah, yeah.

So when you're the only one not afraid of him, you're the one that's going to be in the bad news because everybody else is too afraid to do it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Or I think they're going to get their head chopped off. Yeah, yeah, you know.

Or I could say, listen, you know, Tony, you know, Silvio could go to Tony and say, you know. And then we had some scenes like that. Yeah, sure. And you had that kind of situation with Bruce, maybe not as dire, but, you know, Silvio could go to Tony and say, you know. And then we had some scenes like that. Yeah, sure. And you had that kind of situation with Bruce, maybe not as dire, but, you know. But, yes, you know, those moments have happened. And, you know, you take the heat, man.

It becomes a confrontation of, you know, who wants to hear bad news, right? You know, and you blame the messenger, right? But they know you well enough to wait it out. You know, you're going to take it, but then you'd be like, you all right? That's right. That's how it is.

You know, you survive it. You survive it. And Gandolfini, what a great job he did. It's so sad that we lost that guy. Major loss. Oh, my God. Major loss. A few lately, right?

Petty's gone. Jesus. Oh, that hit me very hard, you know? I mean, we've been opening every show with a Tom Petty song ever since, you know, because it's just very, very, you know. Special guy. Very similar, you know. I think so.

Yeah, we grew up the same way, you know, same influences. But also the space that both your band, or the E Street band, and Petty's band hold in the American culture, in the American songbook, I've always found to be similar. Yeah, it is. It's that true classic rock of the 70s that was coming straight from the 60s, man,

with all the respect. What songs have you been doing? I've been opening with Even the Losers, man, you know, with all the respect. What songs have you been doing? I've been opening with Even the Losers. Oh, you're a great writer, huh? Yeah, yeah, man. And I'll tell you, man, I love this new record. I really do. It does exactly what you said.

Thanks for describing it that way. That moment where you walk into the bar or the club and you hear the band, that's exactly it. Yeah, and I also felt like i said people need a little sanctuary right now from the politics and i mean the old days i would bring the politics with me on tour you know okay here it comes here comes a confrontation with politics that everybody needs to hear yeah and needs to respond to think about and do something about right and now i'm I'm exactly the opposite.

I'm bringing like a bit of sanctuary for two hours. A little rock and roll. Well, it's just a very musical show with this band. You know, it's a very, you know, 15 pieces. We're covering 10, 11 different sub-genres of music. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, right. It's really the history of rock and roll.

Oh, great. From doo-wop and blues to rock and soul to reggae and salsa, hard rock, folk rock, it's all in a show. Yeah, yeah. So it's a real transportation. We're transporting people to a musical place that I think is very, I think, nourishing. I think it's spiritually nourishing right now,

which I think we need more than just more political rally. Yeah, I mean, we're getting enough 24-7, man. Yeah, get the human spirit thing going. Really, I think that's the purpose now. I'm sticking around. I mean, I'm going to keep making records now and keep touring and find a way to tour. And then me and, you know, we'll go every other summer

with the E Street Band or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And hopefully do a new TV show in the winter. Wow, busy guy, and it was great talking to you. You look well. I'm glad you're healthy and the record's beautiful, and it was great meeting you. Thanks, man. You too.

Well, that was a fine conversation with Mr. Stephen Van Zandt. I wanted to mention, though, that he called me after the interview and said that he didn't finish a thought about fixing the Republican Party. He set it up, but he didn't finish it. And this is what he said to me. The way you do it is voting them out in 2018 on a state, local and federal level. So he wanted me to add that. He didn't want to leave that hanging. All right. I mentioned the book. that. He didn't want to leave that hanging. Alright, I mentioned the book. Go pick up the book,

Waiting for the Punch, Words to Live By from the WTF podcast for last minute gift idea. That's it. And maybe I think I'm going to do some blues noodling, if you don't mind. That's what I feel like doing. Very clean, very Stratocaster blues noodling.

A little echo, maybe a little vibrato but all from the built in shit on the old vibroverb Thank you. Boomer lives! It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Boomer lives! No. Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly.

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