WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 880 - Richard Jenkins

Episode Date: January 10, 2018

Richard Jenkins is one of the great character actors working today but he was a late starter in show business. As he continues to rack up awards and accolades for his performances, including his latest in The Shape of Water, Richard reflects on the early days of his acting ambitions in Illinois corn country and the intervention by his high school English teacher that got him on his way. He also talks about his favorite collaborators, including the Coen Brothers, the Farrelly Brothers and Frances McDormand. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gate! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the

fucking years what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it i'm here i'm here i'm here in the the garage at the cat ranch in the last days of the garage at the cat ranch. Well, you know, it's weird. I've talked about this a bit and I say it's the last days, but I've not done anything yet. And everything happens relatively slowly with me. And I don't know why that is. I think maybe that's the way i can handle things i don't know how you do things some people it's just a you know when you have some movers come over or you do it yourself and you just clean the place out clean the whole house out clean the storage unit out clean all of it out whatever you're doing you're cleaning it out you're you know i

know i'm capable of that but i i don't uh i don't do that I I don't like if and obviously I have the luxury of a little time not you sometimes you got to get out for either uh you know good reasons or bad reasons you know sometimes sometimes you're being run out uh which is I didn't mean to laugh there at the whatever I thought of in my head it was just just the discomfort of that situation that I made up in that moment. I can react to things that happen in my mind and nowhere else. It's my freedom to do that. But when I moved the stuff out of the house, most of it, it was just slowly, piecemeal, in a way I could handle, carload by carload. Granted, I'm not moving across country, and that would make it more difficult and time consuming, but I'm just doing it the way I can do it, the way I can handle the

process. I have not moved anything and I can. I mean, that's the point I'm trying to make. But I'm busy. Once again, I'm overwhelmed with stuff. I do the podcast twice a week. I'm still shooting the second season of Glow. I'm trying to get some comedy together. And I'm getting things ready. These aren't problems. They're good things. But that doesn't mean I'm not anxiety-ridden, full of dread about the world and about whatever I have to do tomorrow and everything else.

But I'm trying to find the part where it's sort of like no these are this is great this is this is what you worked for and as opposed to yeah and being in that work and excited about it as opposed to being like oh my god what do i gotta i gotta what ah fuck and then in the back of my mind it's like yeah but you chose this life man and it worked out you know for now it's working out so what are you complaining about it working out for because i'm tired and it's a lot of work for it to work out anyway speaking about working and and and being in it for the long haul that was something i rarely do that's called a segue uh today on the show i talked to richard jenkins richard jenkins is somebody we all know

you may not think you know him but you know him because he's been in a lot of movies and for a long time he was sort of that guy and i think to some people he probably still is oh there's that guy who's that guy that's that guy but this guy richard jen, is one of the great American actors. And you might remember him from his Oscar nomination. And I thought he had won it for The Visitor in 2008. But he was basically the ghost of the father on Six Feet Under. He's been in a couple of Coen Brothers movies. He was in all the Farrelly Brothers movies. I actually saw him in his first film recently on TV.

He was in The Witches of Eastwick. And he's been in a lot of movies. He was great in Flirting with Disaster, the David O. Russell thing. And he did I Heart Huckabees with David O. Russell. But anyway, he's been in a lot of movies. He was just in that LBJ movie with Rob Reiner, which I didn't talk to him about. But the movie he's in now and the reason why he's around

because he doesn't live here in L.A. is for The Shape of Water, which I saw. I've seen a lot of his movies. I've seen a lot of the movies that are nominated. Anyway, it rained rained massive rain here in los angeles and it got chilly it didn't get freezing but it got damp and it got chilly to the bones chilly and i am so fucking happy when it rains out here i can't even begin to tell you this this city gets so fucking dry that you're like, am I going to just dry up? Am I losing water at an inordinate amount? Am I, because your skin gets dry that no amount of lotion will help you. It's basically the desert LA County. I believe, I believe I've heard that as a fact.

So I'll present it to you as one. The new place that I'm in where the cats are now was so dry. It was so dry that I, there was so much static electricity in that place that I'm in where the cats are now was so dry. It was so dry that I, there was so much static electricity in that house that I couldn't touch my cats. Cause it just, it, it terrified them.

I would, I would shock my cats. I would go, come here Lafonda. And I touch it and hear that crack. And then the cat would just spin out. You know what I mean? When you get shocked,

it's not good for cats. It's not, it's disconcerting for humans, but I'm assuming that for a cat, it's very jarring. So they're all freaked out because i've been you know electrocuting them with my fingers for the past month anyway it rained and from living in the here in the house here at the cat ranch for as long as i have over a decade much longer than a decade 14 years or so every time it rains i would go into a panic fuck the roof what about the roof is the roof gonna one time like like 12 years ago right when

i got the house before i realized you got to clean off a roof especially a roof with one runoff water started pouring out of the cabinets because i didn't realize that you had to clean the roof and there was only one hole up there and it just built up there was like a foot and a half of water because the one hole got clogged up and water started you know pouring over the seal of the roof so ever since then that that was traumatic enough that anytime it's about to rain i freak out and i gotta go look up on roof. And some of you who have been with this show for a long enough time, remember when I stupidly climbed up the ladder, when the woman I was dating was in the house at night,

when it started raining by myself, fell off the ladder, right on the flat on my fucking back. And I realized how that happens. It's a terrible feeling to feel a ladder go out from under you a bit, start to wobble. And you know, it's like that, that second before a car accident, you're like, this is happening. That slow motion moment where you just cross over and you slam on your brakes, you're sliding, your brain knows enough from experience that you're not going to stop in that gap.

You're going to keep going no matter how much you got those brakes on. You're not going to stop in that gap. You're going to keep going no matter how much you got those brakes on. And you have a split second or two to realize like, I'm hitting the car. Same with a ladder. You're like, I'm up, I'm up, I'm up. It's not, I'm going down. And sometimes you can make a decision in that split second. Do you tuck and roll do you you know

turn you so you hit your back do you protect yourself somehow anyway so i hear the rains are coming and i'm like fuck the roof but now i'm barely living over here you know and i freaked out like it was starting to drizzle and i came over here and I put that ladder up on that side of the house, which is a pretty steep. It's tall. To check out that roof and just mounds of pine needles from my neighbor's tree. The entire roof was covered with things that would clog the drain and flood it out. And I just immediately went into action. Where are the bags at? do i got any bags because the

drizzle's starting so now i'm up on the roof it's starting to drizzle there's just mounds of pine needles everywhere i got one super hefty construction site uh uh bag you know garbage bag and i got a bunch of little ones so i'm up there i fill that one up no gloves on i'm just using a push broom as a rake and just panicking chasing trying to get ahead of the rain so it doesn't make wet piles that rot the roof and then it doesn't you know drain properly so I'm shoving these bags I'm double bagging these shitty little bags the ones and I fill them up there's like eight or nine bags it's starting to rain a bit I go up and down this ladder twice by myself because I'm an idiot. I'm a fucking

idiot. I'm a stubborn, dumb man. I might go out there right after this because I haven't looked up there since the rains, since they passed by myself. And there was a moment there where I was doing it in retrospect. You know, the last time I came down the ladder and I looked down and I realized that it's wet. My shoes are muddy. Uh, you know, I'm, I'm about 20 feet in the air and, uh, and it's a long way down. And this ladder is not even great. All those thoughts went through my head in about a split second. And then, you know, and then I realized, right, this is how you fall. And I'm about to fall. And I didn't fall, but I was kind of shook up. It was a little shook up when I got down.

But I kind of shook up. I was a little shook up when I got down. Everything's cool. But I'm telling you right now, I might go up the ladder. It's going to be a struggle for me right after I finish doing this. So, Richard Jenkins, The Shape of Water, and many other movies. But The Shape of Water is why he's here. And I generally don't even think to watch, I guess, what they call fantasy movies.

And I thought it was because I just don't, you know, it's sort of like, aren't they for kids? But then I realized, I didn't realize anything until I tuned in because I wanted to be up to speed with what he's working on and what this movie's about, and I'm watching all the Oscar movies and the awards movies. And I just sort of poo-poo fantasy or animated. And I used to think it was because I'm just not that kind of grown-up who enjoys adult Disney movies or animated movies.

And adult Disney movies, I don't mean that Disney movies by Disney. I mean the idea that fantasy is for that fantasy is for adults well this is a very adult movie The Shape of Water and what I realized about fantasy is that because it's not essentially presenting itself to be about real people and it's clear that it's not when there's a a manfish in the movie but where it connects to emotionally is something deeper like you you know i actually found myself more choked up and emotionally wrought by the shape of water than i would you know a movie about you know real people because you get very invested in the fish guy and you get very invested in the the the mute lady and you know there were points in the movie

where i'm like i don't know if i i don't know if i have the emotional fortitude to make it through this movie it's killing me michael shannon is demonic the poor fish guy half fish half man fella but it like it really like i was i don't know what's happening i think i'm going through menopause and you know i just get very emotional i think but there is you know two thirds of the way through that movie i'm like i can't do i just can't handle this this this better turn out okay i can't do this so anyways uh richard Jenkins is great in it. He's great in everything. And it was a thrill to talk to him. I was actually a little nervous because he seems like a very decent fella.

He's nominated, as I am, for a Critics' Choice Award and a Screen Actors Guild Award. So I'm probably going to run into him at the things. He'll be in his suit. I'll be in my suit. But this is him and I not in suits in the garage chatting it up. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats.

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by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Up. It's nice to see you. I was actually a bit nervous about this interview and I've talked to a lot of people.

As was I. You were? Sure. I've been nervous about this interview and I've talked to a lot of people as was I you were sure I'm driving over here because you seem like a reasonable nice person and I imagine you get that but I talked to a lot of people but I was just sort of like yeah you sure he's you know he really feels like coming over that kind of thing my question was are you sure he really wants to talk to me so so we're in the same boat. Right.

So it's going to work out. When did you come in? I've been here for about four or five days. So you live on the East Coast, right? I do. So you got out before? I did, but my wife got hit with a storm. She's in the air right now coming in.

She made it out? Yeah. From where, Boston? From Providence. But I said, have I ever had a chance to publicly thank Sean Bailey, who is a fireman in Pawtucket, and our friend, and our snowblow guy's truck went out. So she wasn't going to make it to the plane. Right.

And Sean came over. And he did it? And he cleaned our driveway. Well, there you go. He's got his shout out. He's a great guy. How far away are you from Providence and Rhode Island? I am in Providence.

You're right in Providence. And how is that city doing? Because I started my comedy career in New England, and I used to do gigs around Providence. And I did the Cranston Bowl. I did a- Cranston, Rhode Island. Are you familiar? Yeah, absolutely.

There's no, everybody in Rhode Island knows everybody else. Yeah. Because it's like. Yeah. Yeah. Melody, Rhode Island. How's the governor? Oh, she's great. Yeah, she's great.

But we went through some tough times. I mean, my car got stolen and I've never forgiven the city. What year were you there? Well, that would have been in like, you know, probably the late 80s in Boston doing gigs, 89, 90, 91. It's a great city. Yeah.

It's just a great city. It turned around, right? It did, absolutely. And we got there in 1970 and it was a burned out town. Right. There was nothing there. Yeah, yeah.

And you just saw it build up. It did. It's incredible. I think, well, there's a lot of reasons for it. Who knows? But, you know, Brown University and Rhode Island School of Design and Providence College and Rhode Island College are all in Providence. That's right.

Right. What is it? Davio Square? Daval. Daval Square. There used to be a comedy club called Periwinkles. Do you remember it? I do. And I was doing a gig club called Periwinkles. Do you remember it? I do.

I was doing a gig there and my car was stolen from outside. Periwinkles. And I really held the city accountable for years, but I hear it's nice now. It is. It's great. A lot of cultural stuff going on. Are you still the director

of a theater there? No, I did that for four years. I was an actor. I came to Providence as an apprentice in this theater, the Trinity Repertory Company. Right. And I stayed as an actor for 14 seasons. Well, where'd you grow up? DeKalb, Illinois. Yeah?

Yeah. How far is that from Chicago? 60 miles west. So that's too far. It's too far. It's corn country. Yeah. Yeah. But you couldn't just go into Chicago. You probably too far. It's corn country. Yeah. But you couldn't just go into Chicago.

Like, you probably didn't have a relationship with Chicago. Well, there was no theater in Chicago when I was there. Steppenwolf hadn't started. You know, those guys. Actually, those guys came out of Illinois State University, which was right next to where I went to school at Illinois Wesleyan. And they were a little younger than I was, but they went to Chicago and there was no theater

so they started their own right there was comedy though there was like yeah a lot of comedy Second City Compass Players years ago but no theater

I wonder what have you ever thought like what if what if Steppenwolf was around you'd be a very different actor I bet oh yeah

do you think if they had me right oh yeah it seems to generate a certain type of intensity. It changed the city. Steppenwolf did. Steppenwolf did, yeah.

It changed acting, I think. It did. It did. You know what I mean? It was a theater run by actors, four actors. It was all about performance. Yeah. Yeah.

Did you ever go and see those guys? I saw their Samson Shepard play they did gary sinise and john malkovich oh yeah barry child was a berry child true west true west yeah oh yeah and i when i go back i i go to step wolf and see things you do yeah it's great malkovich and sinise were in in true west in chicago and they used to change parts sometimes yeah wow so how do you get into acting in DeKalb, Illinois? What was the family situation? You don't. You just don't.

I'd never seen a play, really. I used to go to the movies all the time. Did you have a lot of siblings? No, I'm an only child. Only child in DeKalb? In DeKalb, yeah. Wow. Just you and the corn?

Right across the street. I used to take a baseball bat and hit rocks into the corn. Is that true? Yeah, it is. My father was an only child. Really? My mother had one sister, so we were a small family. Huh.

Do you think that had an effect on you? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I spent a lot of time alone. I daydreamed my entire youth away. And how close was the closest neighbor? Was it that situation? No, they were right next door.

Okay. But it was just, you know, across the street was a cornfield. Uh-huh. And did you, but you had friends? Oh, I had a lot of friends. Oh, good. Yeah, yeah. I had a lot of friends.

What was your dad's business? He was a dentist. A small town dentist? Yes. How big is DeKalb? Well, when I grew up, it was probably 15,000 and then it got probably 40,000 because it was a university there. So everyone knew your dad, the dentist? Everybody knew my dad, the dentist, which has got its ups and downs. Plenty of toothpaste, toothbrushes,

flossing at an early age. Your teeth are good. Your teeth are good. You learned all that. I went back to a reunion, a class reunion, and one of my dad's patients had no teeth. Uh-huh. He said, oh, this happened after your death. Yeah, he threw your hands up. I had nothing to do with it. So how did you find yourself moving towards acting? I've always wanted to be an actor. I used to go to the movies every weekend, and I didn't really care what was on.

That's the way I saw the world. Yeah. And I would think to myself, how do you do that? Right. I mean, that's just really interesting. Yeah. So it was about eighth grade, seventh grade, middle school. I did a play, a one-act play.

Yeah. And I came home and I told my parents I was going to be an actor. That was it. And I walked out of the room and I didn't know this at the time. How was it? And I walked out of the room, and I didn't know this at the time. In fact, this is a story that I found out after I was nominated in 2009. For The Visitor?

For The Visitor. Yeah. And they did an article in my hometown paper, the DeKalb Chronicle. Uh-huh. And in it, Joanne Fox, who was my English teacher in middle school and, or junior high school. Yeah. And directed the play. Right.

Told this story about my parents which is well my mother called her up and said you have to talk to my husband he's being unreasonable um my son came home today and said he wanted to be an actor and my my husband said i will not allow it this is not going to happen right this is not the way to make a living right he'll starve to death he's not doing this yeah and she said you have to speak to him and so she put him on the phone so my dad got on the phone and joanne fox said uh so you don't want to be an actor he said no it's not going to happen so it's not going to happen right and she said okay uh you put your foot down but i want you to know this.

You have to be willing to accept the fact that he will never forgive you for the rest of his life, ever. And my father, I never knew that. My father was my biggest fan. It was like, and I never got a chance to thank him. Wow. Because he was dead when this article came out. And it was was you know so so he didn't so that phone call changed him it did and i never knew it i mean i i figured my dad's glad

i'm an actor yeah right and he must have been dying inside right at the beginning scared for you scared he said i would starve to death right. That usually turns out to be the reason why parents don't want their children to pursue this stuff. It's not like, it's just basic fear for their security. Yeah, absolutely. And we lived in an area where that just, you just didn't do that. It's not practical anywhere. No, it isn't practical.

I don't care where you live. It's not practical. It's the stupidest thing you can do. It really is. And I'm not sure that's a lie. No. It's not practical. It's the stupidest thing you can do. It really is. And I'm not sure that's a lie. No. Listen, I mean, young actors ask me all the time, how do you, I have no idea.

Yeah. No, there's no. No. You know, everybody's got a different story. Sure. And it's not a meritocracy. There's no, there's some weird storm. It's just, there's no, there's no way to give advice other than, I hope you enjoy it yeah yeah and you know work on your thing and kind of the only thing i say if you're meant to do this you'll

figure it out right right you know and and if not at least you'll know well this is not for me yeah but you know what the scary thing is though it takes a real and i it takes a certain kind of person to turn their back on it you You know, after like, cause right. You know, you get into it, whatever this is, you know, a number of years and it doesn't seem possible after. So what, what, what am I going to do? Right. You know, it happened for that guy when he was 90.

You know, maybe I'll get, you keep pushing that guy up, you know, and now lifespans are longer. Yeah. Right. So maybe 94, 95. Yeah, just got to keep working. So, well, that's a beautiful story. And your mother was always on it?

My mother, yeah, my mother. I never got a chance to thank her. She's the one that said, wait a minute, put the brakes on here. Yeah. When did they pass? I mean, like they did not see your success? Well, they saw a little. I was in movies when they died.

But, you know, they didn't, yeah, they didn't see really the fun part. Right. But I always, you know, I always supported myself as an actor. I didn't make any money. My wife was a teacher. She ran a dance program in an arts magnet high school. She's a choreographer. So she had health insurance and good stuff like that. But I was making 200 bucks a week. So where did you train?

I trained at Illinois Wesleyan. Harold Guskin is an acting teacher that I studied with. He's really the only one that I studied with. It's really the only one that I studied with. It's a good school. Was it a good program? Or did you, yeah, it's,

but until you get out and start doing it, I met Harold after I left school. Oh, so you, in, in,

at Wesleyan, you just kind of did what you had to do. Well, you do plays. Yeah. And you know, it's like, it's,

it's experience. You have, I mean, it's so much fun. It's, it really, it doesn't prepare you to be. But you loved it. Every, it's so much fun. It doesn't prepare you to be. But you loved it.

From that one act on. I loved every second of it. And did you do more stuff? Did you do high school stuff? No, I didn't do anything in high school. No, I did The Madwoman of Shio. I had eight lines. And I got to college and I didn't know anything about acting. But I was in the theater department.

Right. Did you have to audition to get in? acting, but I was in the theater department. Right. Did you have to audition to get in? Yeah, but I had to audition, and I did Big Daddy from Cat in a Hot Tin Roof, and I never even read the play. You just got the monologue? I just took the monologue, and it was like the stupidest thing I ever did.

So they must have been really hard up for students that year because I got in. And when you audition, you had to audition for everything. You had to sign a sheet so they could keep track of it, and I got in. And when you audition, you had to audition for everything. You had to sign a sheet so they could keep track of it. And I never went to any of these things. And at the end of the year, the head of the department called me into his office. And he said, who are you?

He said, I know you're in school because you're in my class. But he said, I'm looking at this sheet. You didn't audition for anything. But did you or you just didn't sign in? I didn't audition. I said, I don't know how. Right. I thought you were supposed to teach me.

He chuckled. Yeah. And said, all right, you want to do this? I said, yeah, I do. But I'm a little intimidated by all this stuff. Right. So I went to Summer Stock that summer, and he said, if this works out, great. If not, you've got to make room for somebody who wants to jump in here and do this.

Oh, really? So his name was John Ficca, and he's another one that just was a big influence on me. And told me after, I think it was my senior year, he said, I think you can do this. I think you should pursue this. Uh- said, I think you can do this. I think you should pursue this. So once you snapped into shape. And it's all you need for somebody to say, I believe in you. It's true. Yeah.

And even though you may suck. Yeah. It's that, oh, wait a minute. He really means this. Yeah. Yeah. It's good to have that and to have at least enough self-esteem to believe them. Yeah. And I don't have a lot of that.

I believed it until I started really doing it. I thought, maybe he's bullshit. That bastard. Now I'm stuck. Now what do I do? So who is this guy, Guston? Harold Guskin, G-U-S-K-I-N. Yes, he actually wrote a book called How to Stop Acting.

Oh, to get out? No, no. Oh, I see. To be natural. And Harold, we were in a theater company together, and he was teaching acting in his basement. After college. I was in graduate school at Indiana University, because you need a graduate degree in acting. Oh, you went to?

For one year. I just went one year and that's where you met this guy harold we were in a touring company that toured the and on a school bus and we performed uh you know productions in all these different towns and colleges really like like you do one production and toured across the country yeah we did three and we didn't we went mostly the midwest and and this was during the summer? What kind of program? Most of the year. Really? Most of the year, yeah. It was kind of a graduate thing we did.

What an odd thing. It was really odd. Were they one acts? No, we did Antigone, we did Twelfth Night, and we did The Importance of Being Earnest. And I was playing John Worthing in The Importance of Being Earnest, and I was so awful. I mean, it was just horrible and and that's not that deep a play is it well that'll that'll give you a clue as to my talent level i have never been able to do a british accent oh okay so that was i think what happened

was after that play i refused to do one after that it But Harold was in the play. You've got to learn that lesson. You've got to learn it. You've got to learn your limitations. Your limitations, yeah. So Harold was in the play, and Harold was good. He was really good. And we did Antigone, too, and he was the soothsayer. And an actor got sick, and he came in, and he was the blind soothsayer.

And he has, like, one huge speech. And he comes in, and he's fabulous. And I knew he has like one huge speech. Yeah. And he comes in and he's fabulous. And I knew he taught acting at his house. At his house. And I said, could I take classes from you? And he turned to me and said, I wondered when you were going to ask. So that was. And that was in Indiana?

That was in Indiana, yeah. Indianapolis? No, Bloomington. Oh, Bloomington. I went from Bloomington, Illinois to Bloomington, it i that's a good town yeah it is it's a it's a it's a weird little place it's a little vortex of some kind it is and in the middle is this beautiful university yeah with all the it's all built from the quarry rock gorgeous yeah it's all built from that one rock yeah so okay so what'd you see this is, so now that I talk to actors, cause I act a little myself,

uh, since he was your primary teacher, I guess you would say, what was it that you learned that you still used like craft wise? Well, I really, you know, I just never, you never believe that you're enough. Right. Yeah. You know, it's like I woke up with that. I've seen Lawrence Olivia. I can't do that. You know? I just never believe you never believe that you're enough right yeah you know I woke up with that I've seen Lawrence Olivia

I can't do that you know and you know his thing is you know respond just be there buddy

what do you stop acting just listen what is she saying just respond you know and you know actually the first

I don't know why I'll tell this, but when kind of the light bulb went on for me, I was doing, I did a scene for him from The Glass Menagerie. And I was playing the gentleman caller. And I used to love David Wayne. And he did it on Broadway, and he had an album of it. Yeah. And I, like, copied that album.

You just did a mimic? Yeah, I did. And the first line was, you know, I said, hello there, Laura. And Harold was watching the scene and I heard him say, what? I kind of looked at him and I went, hello there, Laura. And he said, what? Hello there, Laura. He said, what did you say?

And I turned to him. I said, I said, hello, Laura. He went, oh, okay. Go ahead. And that's, for me, that was my, that was the moment where I went, hello, Laura. He went, oh, okay. Go ahead. And that's, for me, that was the moment where I went, oh, shit. Be present. Yeah, it's me. It's me.

It is, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I keep thinking about it, and obviously I haven't done anything huge, but I do these roles here and there, but it's sort of like you you gotta you gotta know what you can do and then you know you show up for because like i noticed like with you and with a lot of great actors that it's like they're being them there's just different variations absolutely yeah it's there's an emotional regulator it's a rare breed of person that's gonna you know you know put on

90 pounds and and you know and change their dialect and i can do it unintentionally but i can't really but but like you said unintentionally, but I can't really. But like you said before, you know you can't do a British accent, so why bother with it? I don't have a great ear, and I've tried. On stage, I've done it actually a lot of times. I've never been happy with it. And I've been offered films with British actors in it,

doing a British accent. Are you out of your mind? I could see them at the lunch table, rolling around, and here he comes. Here comes the yank with his weird dialect. Yeah, I guess that's true. I guess it's a different skill. It is. And I mean, I can do people from the South because of my family. My mother's side of the family is from the South. So I grew up with that you know from where what part kentucky oh kentucky people so you go what your grandparents are down there my grandparents were they moved to decalb oh so

everyone was there oh they brought your they brought my mom they came during the depression in a wagon it kind of yeah they all came so all my aunts and uncles were farmers and all from Kentucky because they followed. My grandmother was a real matriarch and they all followed her. Right. That was sort of like they thought there were jobs up there. And there were. They opened a canning factory in the DeKalb area. They did all right for themselves.

And so my grandfather was a night watchman in the factory. My grandmother was a cook at the hospital. And then others came up. There are jobs here. Come. It's good. Some became farmers. It's fascinating how that-

I know. It's like, let's go where it's happening. And my father just graduated from dental school in Loyola in Chicago, and he wanted to open a practice. Start a practice at a growing city. So he saw DeKalb had a college, so he rented off his space, made up a fake appointment book for two weeks. Yeah. And he said, I was asleep in my chair in the office. And a guy came in and woke me up.

He said, I'd like to get an appointment for it. And he said, oh. I looked at an appointment for and he said oh i looked at my book i said i'm booked for two weeks and he wrote his name down he said he left and i slept for two more weeks and he came in that's the tale that's the story that's the story the start of the business wow man so how do you get from uh how do you get from Indiana? I know. But it's interesting to me because you make choices to do things, but that doesn't seem like the logical choice. You know, when you look back on it and you think, it's just weird.

Yeah. If I had just taken one other turn, who knows what would have happened? But you never thought to come out here. Your trip was theater. I wanted to be in movies. That's what I always wanted. Yeah. That was my...

And I came out here in 1975 after our daughter was born to see if I could make my way. And they said, here's your ass. Let us hand it to you. Yeah. Here you go. Have a good trip back. Really. I was here for about nine, ten months. And I just said not oh and that must have been uh that must have been one of

those things where you know you have a baby and you gotta tell your wife that like I'm gonna go to that horrible shithole out there and no I said I said I'm gonna go out there and hey about three weeks when I get an agent you'll come out and we'll get a nice house you had well I didn't I mean but I didn't know it was going to be well you had some confidence

it sounded like well I had a friend who called me up and he had a series and he said come on out man it's great oh yeah

that guy that guy easy for him that guy you come out and like within a week he's like yeah I got no time man good luck

I knocked on his door I said geez i'm on my way to europe but you know we're still really good friends and yeah he's still living on is he still an actor yeah he's an actor yeah uh well how did you did you do jobs before no i drove a laundry truck all right and i had five accidents in decalb no in in chicago my father-in-law my wife sharon is from chicago okay and after i graduated after i left school i got a job as as an apprentice i think at long wharf theater um and but didn't start till september or something so uh he got me a job he worked for a laundry yeah company union linen yeah he got me a job driving a truck a laundry truck and and i had five accidents in two months not your bag and and one accident i wasn't even in the truck so how is that your fault i came out and it was gone

and i looked down the hill and it hit a car on the curb the a laundry bag fell off the and hit it knocked it out of and into neutral and down it went. And there was a guy standing there with half his face shaved. He had a razor in his hand. He was, it's his car. And there was no driver in this truck. It was brutal. Not your thing.

No, no. What is that tidbit of information that I saw that your boss was John C. Reilly's dad? Is that true? How did that come up anywhere? About the last week we were shooting Step Brothers. I said, so John, I knew he was from C. Reilly's dad. Is that true? Yeah. How did that come up anywhere? About the last week we were shooting Step Brothers, I said, so John,

I knew he was from Chicago. I said, what did your dad do? He said, my dad died at 59. He said, you know, he was,

my kids never really knew him. My wife met him once or twice. He said he was vice president of a laundry. I said, oh, Jesus, that's amazing

because my father-in-law worked at Union Linen. He said, oh, Jesus. Because my father-in-law worked at Union Linen. He said, my dad was vice president. As soon as he said it, I went, oh, John Riley. That was his name, too. Yeah. John, he was my boss. That's a lie.

He was the guy. You knew that guy. I knew that guy. And actually, he brought his boat out. My father-in-law had a little cottage on a lake outside of Chicago. Yeah. And John Riley, the father, brought his boat out. My father and I had a little cottage on a lake outside of Chicago. Yeah. And John Riley, the father, brought his boat out and all of his kids. And John C. Riley was five at the time.

Right. And I put all of his kids in the boat. So you did. I was like 22. Uh-huh. And I put John C. Riley. He picked him up and put him in the boat. Did you tell him that?

Yeah. That's hilarious. Do you remember his dad? Does it make sense? Oh, absolutely. Yes. Sure absolutely yes sure i remember him yeah he was like no nonsense this guy was yeah yeah he was you know i was terrified of him but he was nice to me but he was he was uh yeah he was the boss right sure old school boss yeah but he's you know all right so your big your big idea was to go to rhode island to act i you know uh so the long war thing didn't work out they started in chicago yeah no that was in new haven connecticut but i was in chicago i was idea was to go to Rhode Island to act. So the Longworth thing didn't work out. In Chicago.

No, that was in New Haven, Connecticut. But I was in Chicago. I was waiting to get a call to go work at the Longworth Theater. Right, in New Haven. And they stopped their program for... It used to be a lot of theaters had companies. Not anymore. And they were

starting to phase them out even when... What year was that 1970 uh-huh and uh arvin brown was a terrific wonderful man he called me up and he apologized and you know it was nothing you know they stopped the program but so i went into new york to audition for any regional theaters and uh trinity rep was one of the theaters did Did you have an agent? I didn't have an agent. So how did you know to audition? I had shirts. How do you know to, but you're married.

Are you married at this point? I was married, yes. I called Theater Communications Group that had to do with auditions for regional theater. I said, anybody coming in? They said, well, Trinity Rep's looking for somebody. But if you're not in town, it's no. I said, no, I'm in town. I was on at Cornfield in DeKalb. Down the street.

So I went to New York. And this is true. I know this sounds like I'm making it up, but it isn't. The guy went in before me to audition. He had a guitar. Yeah. And he was playing and singing and beautifully and i could hear the people in there laughing and clapping and and you know it was like a concert

killing and he came out and he went good luck yeah and he walks and i'm like so i go in and um i read something oh did he give me, and I heard, thank you. Okay. So I get in a plane. I fly home. I said, that's not going to happen. But, you know, a week later, I get a call. They want to hire you as an apprentice at Trinity Rep.

I was like, really? So we drove out to Providence, Rhode Island, and the first play I did was kind of a musical about Charles Manson. Really? Yeah. It was called Son of Man and the Family. It was this kind of interesting theater.

This director, Adrian Hall, was this really interesting, talented guy. Yeah, yeah. And so he turns to me, and really he's like six foot four Texan that's just all energy. He doesn't remember anybody's name. He calls you Thing. Yeah. Okay, Thing. You Thing.

Oh, man. You play the guitar here. You strum, strum, strum. I said, Adrian, I don't play the guitar. He said, yeah, yeah. I want you to play the guitar here. This is where we need you to play the guitar. I said, Adrian, I don't play the guitar.

And he stopped and he looked at me. He said, well, darling, that's why I hired you he thought I was the guy before him he they meant to hire the guy before me oh my god so I went home and I said pack our car I think it's but no I stayed oh my god he couldn't they couldn't fire you after that. That would have been so bad. He denied it forever. He said, oh, I never did. Well, I know what I did.

So that's a good start. Nice, confident, kind of like they wanted me for what I do. I'm the guy. So you got married and everything back in DeKalb? Right after we graduated in June, married in August. You knew her in college? Right after we graduated in June, married in August. You knew her in college? Yeah, we met in college. She was in the theater department,

a dancer, a wonderful dancer. And we started dating. We knew each other from stock and just being in the department. She didn't talk to me very much. But we got engaged our junior year and got married. Wow, and you stayed together.

Yeah. See, this is, and you stayed together. Yeah. Yeah. See, this is a, and you didn't come to Los Angeles. You know, you live a nice life. Well, thank you. I would have come if anybody would want to be here. Oh, it would have been terrible. No.

You could have ended up at Steppenwolf and in Los Angeles and God knows what the hell you are. I mean, it is a weird life, you know, and how it, how things happen. Yeah. And I had, I came back after Los Angeles to Providence, and I said, this is not going to happen. At all. No. We've got to figure out how to do this.

Plan B. So what did you do in, like, once you got into the theater there in Providence. So that guy was sort of a crazy kind of... Genius. Oh, he was. He was a genius. Off the grid kind of thinker. He was a 70s. He was groovy.

But he was really, he really thought, what can the theater do that movies and television can't? Why do people need to come here? And were they coming? Yeah, they were in droves. Yeah, this guy was really gifted. And I'm so lucky that I got to spend my formative years in the theater with him.

What was his name again? Adrian Hall. Is he around still? He's still around. He's close to 90. He lives in Texas. He's back home. But he taught me a ton, which is, you know, it's like the theater.

In the theater. Yeah. Peter Brook used to talk about this. Yeah. If you take this and you go point to this water bottle and you say, this is a baby, the audience will go, oh, okay. But in the movies, you can't. Oh, okay. But in the movies, you can't.

And yet, you go to the theater now, and you still see these productions where they have the fake baby, and then the cry of the baby coming out of the sound system. Sure. It's like, I mean, come on. Movies have to have a real baby. Theater does not. It's interesting. I did a play once. I directed a play, Twelfth Night, and it's about twins.

Yeah. And nobody's supposed to be able to tell them apart and i've seen productions where people have fake noses and they you know trying to and they never yeah um so we're in a repertory theater with actors that can't you mean you have a choice of who you're going to use yeah so when the twin comes on stage, I had them stand next to each other, and somebody held a sign up behind them and said, these two look exactly alike, okay? And it was never an issue after that.

That's what the theater can do. But that's Shakespeare, right? That's Shakespeare. So people were there for the words. For the words, yeah. But it's like I fell into that trap. I had him put fake eyebrows on and nose. And I was like, what are we doing?

Yeah, it's about the acting. Nobody really knows. Yeah. That's right. But if you're in movies, you got to look just the same. Yeah, unless you're bending some sort of weird rule. You know what I mean? Like, you know, we're going to do it different.

You know, like if you're Todd Solans and you're, you know. Well, no, it doesn't mean that you can push the boundaries of course find out what cinema can do but that's what he was doing with theater and at a time when it wasn't really he would the actor in the audience was really his thing you know how do you well that's what it's really about right yes it is it's like how do you put them in the same room and like i never thought about that though that the idea that that people are more willing to suspend their disbelief to have the experience because the experience really is about what's happening on stage. And as long as the audience understands what's expected of them. Right.

They'll go with it. They're really – it's amazing what the theater can do, you know. And, you know, I mean, plays where somebody rings a doorbell. I saw a production of The Death of a Salesman at in in at trinity where yeah there was no props there was nothing it was just and there were actors and somebody ring a bell and somebody hit a try you know you just don't have to be literal right you don't it just it's a different world so that was his whole thing how do you how do you make an audience think god i can't get this anywhere else i gotta come back to this right well you can do that's it you can do anything you want really

you know with a play you can you can um and people do you know and and i love people to conceptualize plays as long as you don't change the text do whatever you want man i want to see and you know i want to see what you do yeah um and there's some amazing stuff what was the most challenging thing that you did back in the day with that stuff acting like what was the one way it made you go like oh man it's just gonna work everything i did kidding me every time i started rehearsal it was like oh man this is this doesn't have a chance. But I'm going to do it. I'm going to work with this guy. Oh, man.

Yeah. So you spent just how many years just doing plays with that guy? 14 years. Oh. So did you get to direct and all? Is that where you learned how to do everything? He made me direct. I didn't want to.

And he said, it's good for you. Do it. So the first thing I did was Billy Bishop Goes to War. And it's a one-man show with a piano. He comes out. Billy Bishop was a Canadian World War I fighter pilot. Right. And he tells this story to the audience.

Yeah. And there's music and he sings. It's really a sweet, nice show. So I didn't know what to do. What do you do with a set for this you have like hang air propellers and i so there's a designer his name is eugene lee and eugene lee was our resident designer and he also he and adrian shared this aesthetic of how to make the theater accessible and alive and so I took the play to Eugene.

I said, Eugene, what do we do? We do this maybe with propellers and a curtain. And he kind of looked at me and he goes, I said, you know, maybe I don't have pictures of World War I. He said, let me read it. And so he read it. And he came back and he said, we'll do it in a bar. I said, okay.

So we build a bar on the stage and the audience is out there. And he said, no, we'll do it in a bar. I said, okay. So we build a bar on the stage and the audience is out there. And he said, no, we'll do it in a bar. So we go leave the theater. He said, no, no, we'll build a bar. I couldn't wrap my head around it. Right. So he covered the entire seating area of the theater. Yeah.

And he built a bar. And if you wanted to watch the play, you came into a bar. Oh, really? And if you wanted to sit down, you found a seat. And if you wanted a beer, you went up to the bar and you came into a bar. Oh, really? And if you wanted to sit down, you found a seat. And if you wanted a beer, you went up to the bar and you got a beer. On the set?

On the set. It was not a set. It was a bar. Right, right. And in comes this guy and he starts talking about his life. Oh, that's great. And a guy in a bar.

Yeah. And it's jumping on the piano, jumping on the pool table, no props, nothing, just what's ever there. Uh-huh. And it was extraordinary. Wow.

And I had nothing to do with it. But I learned a huge lesson there. That's so lucky that I got that play first and I had Eugene to help me. Peter Garrity was the actor. He's out here now. He's in New York now. He does a lot of film and TV. Wonderful, wonderful piece.

And it just was like the light bulb went on. Okay, this is theater. Yeah, collaboration. It's conceptualization, collaboration. Yeah. And people were coming in the place and loving it. Yeah, I bet. They've never experienced that before.

How do you know you're going to walk into a theater and that's going to happen? But Eugene knew from the beginning that the scene partner was the audience because that's who he was talking to. Right. So we'll put him in there with him. Wow. And that's, yeah. And did that give you the bug to direct more? No.

That was enough. That was enough. No. Yeah, I did direct. You know, I did. I made a lot of mistakes. Uh-huh. You know, I figured I know how this, I made a lot of mistakes. I figured I know this stuff now. Sure.

And then the next time you go out, you say, oh, God, this was a dumb idea. But I did. I directed a while, and then I quit directing because I felt I ruined an actor's performance. Just once? Well, I really felt I ruined this guy's performance. Oh, boy. What happened? Well, I was trying to be helpful

and it was the way... I did to him what every director... When a director does to me, I want to strangle him. Oh, yeah. So I just said, you can't do this.

What did you do to him? I was stupid. I didn't know how to communicate with him. Yeah. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know when to leave him alone. Uh-huh. And I didn't know how to communicate with him. Yeah. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know when to leave him alone. Uh-huh.

And I didn't allow him to find the world. Uh-huh. And if somebody did that to me, I would have been so pissed. So you made him self-conscious somehow. I confused him. I just confused him. And I just thought to myself, I can't do this. Yeah.

Yeah. So I stopped. And then I came back and ruined, I can't do this. Yeah. Yeah. So I stopped. And then I came back and ruined some more performance. But you were there for 14 years. And during that time is when you went to LA? Yes. It was when I didn't tell anybody I was going. There was a big break.

And I wasn't in the first few shows. And I said, well, I'll go out there for a few months. And I came back in the first few shows. And I said, well, I'll go out there for a few months. And I came back and, boy. But like 75, that was sort of like, it's a pretty wild period out here. Oh, yeah. It was for me, too. Yeah. So like, you know, you're coming into like a sort of like post-60s like insanity.

I brought, I only clothes I had were corduroy jeans. Oh, yeah. Well, that's right. Because it was cold in Rhode Island. I was out here. It was 110. Right. And I think I gained 25 pounds.

Where were you staying? I was staying above a carport off Sunset Boulevard. Nice. Crescent Heights. Oh, yeah. Sure. You turn there and you'll see two carports with these windows. Yeah.

They're broken. And that's where I stayed. A hundred bucks a month. Was it a hotel or just a rental apartment? It was some guy's carport. Oh, yeah. You know? So, and Sunset Boulevard was crazy then, right?

I mean, were things happening or you were just- Me, I was a doofus. I had no money. Yeah. I was trying to get auditions no plan and you're one guy split i'm no plan it's like cool hand luke like paul newman says and i never had a plan in my life and i just was there trying to make my way and what happened i got nowhere i remember i went to an agent's office once is this i i i met the no clue and nowhere

i wasn't going into CAA here. I was going into, I don't know who these people were. The other carport. The other carport. And this guy had a picture of Mickey Rooney on his,

behind him on his wall. It was about six feet high. Yeah. And I said, is he a client? And he went, no. That was the conversation.

And also the fact that that would have been enough for you to give that guy credibility. I was excited, man. Mickey Rooney, man. Because Mickey Rooney was... No. No. So I didn't ask him why though. But back then you used to pay for auditions.

I don't think they do this anymore. I don't know. Maybe they do. It was 35 bucks. Yeah. I don't think they do this anymore. I don't know. Maybe they do.

It was $35. Yeah. And you brought 15 or 20 resume pictures. Yeah. And you left them out there and you would go and casting directors would come in during the lunch hour and sit and watch all these actors that had paid their money. Paid the buck? And they weren't casting directors. They were, you know. Just hustlers? Gophers. And they weren't casting directors. They were, you know,

Just hustlers? Gophers who worked in this. It was a racket. It was a racket, yeah. So anyway, I mean, I'm sure some people hired people for that. So I went, I did my Eugene O'Neill, and I walked back,

and there was about 30 of us. And we all went out afterward. Every single one of my pictures was still there oh and and everybody nobody else they're all gone and so i sat there counting 15 15. i said maybe i brought 16. every one ever nobody took it and they were like and there were great headshots i took them myself you know it was just the weirdest but but that was

yeah it was it wasn't in the it wasn't in the cards that trip that wasn't that wasn't gonna happen oh man

it's so weird to come out here cause I I talk to a lot of people that do it I've done it before you come out here for real

like where you just you come out here and you're like oh it's a big city and you know like I don't know anybody and there's no way in you never meet anybody no no and there's no way in i know there is no way in it's it's it and so many people come out here sort of like well i know that guy who went to europe right whatever but there's no way there's no path no no you know you there's like

there's there's this inner place and then there's like oh everyone just kind of trying to it's it's heartbreaking on some level it's terribly heartbreaking and hilarious at the same time yeah i know and it never changes no no and it just gets i think it gets harder because there's just more people more people but there's and but then there's the idea that like well there's more outlets there's more content there's a bigger business but then no but they see that the further you get out with the content, the less money or no money. And then you just got people who are building careers on not making a living. I'm doing a lot of stuff. You can watch a lot of it.

But I'm not making any money. So how did you get the first movie? What was it? I was at the Long Wharf Theater doing a play. In New Haven. In New Haven. And my now manager, Bill Tresh, was there with Sandy Dennis. Do you remember Sandy Dennis?

Yeah, she was great. Who's afraid of the Virginia Woolf. Virginia Woolf, yeah. Some other stuff. Fabulous. And she said to him, sign him. Oh, really? Sandy did.

I got a knock on the door backstage. And Bill said, I'm Bill Tresh. And I said, I know. I knew who he was. Yeah. And he said, I want to sign you. I said, okay. Good.

How old are you at that point? 36. Oh, man. 36. It's going away. It is. It's gone. I thought it was gone uh and um he said what do you want to do

i said i want to be in movies he goes okay i said i don't live in new york i live here in province he says i don't care where you live but if i call you to audition you have to come in you can't say it's too far yeah i said well just don't give me 8 o'clock in the morning auditions, all right? Yeah. Give me some time to get on it. And back then, the Amtrak was about four and a half hours. From Providence to New York? Yeah. Yeah. Had to change engines in New Haven.

Yeah. And if you were lucky, it was four and a half hours. Right. It was five, five and a half hours. Right. And so I'd go in in the morning, and I'd have an audition, and I'd say something like, you know, freeze. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. You know. Take the train back. Take the train back. So say something like, you know, freeze. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You know. Take the train back. Take the train back. So still, this is just like adding insult to injury. It was. But at least I was auditioning.

And you had representation. I had representation. I had this manager who kind of believed in me. Yeah. And I didn't have an agent. And then I signed, after I got my first movie, I signed with an agency. What movie was it? The Witches of Eastwick.

Oh, yeah. You're great in that. You played the husband of the lunatic. What was her name? What's that actress's name? Veronica Cartwright. She was so funny. She's a fabulous actress.

She's really fabulous. Yeah, yeah. She just called me the other day. Oh, yeah? And I talked to her once. She's been out here forever, and she's a wonderful actress, man. Yeah, she did a lot of stuff. She always plays that sort of escalated intense character.

I just saw that again recently. And, yeah, it was on TV. Yeah, so, you know, I got that. I don't know how I auditioned for it, and I got it. And it's a big movie. It is a big movie. Who directed that? George Miller.

Oh, yeah. And they wouldn't let me on the set the first day. They didn't think I was in it. They didn't believe you? Because we were shooting half of it in New England. And so I drove my car my first day, and the guard wouldn't let me through. We got a guy out here. I'm in this.

And he said, you and everybody else in town, buddy. What town was it? A coastal town up in Massachusetts. It he's a you and everybody else in town buddy. What town was it? A coastal town up in Massachusetts. It was Massachusetts. Right, yeah. So you didn't do scenes with Jack Nicholson, but he was around? Yeah, he was great. He was so nice to me.

Yeah? I saw the dailies, you know. They looked pretty good. He was so great to me. I loved him. I just thought he was the greatest guy. That's a good experience for the first movie? Yeah.

To be hanging with Jack? Jack and Susan Sarandon and Michelle Pfeiffer and Cher. And, you know, and this dude from Providence. Yeah, it was great. And Veronica. It was fun. It was really nice. That was a substantial part.

That was a real part. It was a part. I actually was in Silverado before that but I I had two scenes where I said I said howdy

yeah and then you can't do that and they shot me yeah and that was it that was it but I was there

for seven weeks where'd they shoot that in Santa Fe oh that's nice I grew up in New Mexico yeah they built this gorgeous set and it was amazing

there's a lot going on in that movie I remember that movie not with me I was in the hotel for seven weeks you know it was the biggest snow in the history of Santa Fe was like two feet deep I didn't have a car I couldn't go home because I was a cover set yeah which means I don't know if you're if it's a bad day outside you go inside and shoot. Right. And so they wouldn't let me go home because I was a cover set.

Right. So I was going out of my mind. Nobody knew who I was. And you had two lines. Yeah, I guess it gets a little isolating. Larry Kasdan had a party the last week we were there, and I was just stir crazy. And I went to the party.

Nobody knew me. But Larry, who's a great guy yeah he came over he said Richard how long you been here I said seven freaking weeks yeah he said no no I meant at the party he was uh did you have didn't even work with him again? I did. On what? Uh, Darling Companion. Oh. A movie I did with Kevin Kline, Diane Keaton, Diane Wiest. Wow. Yeah. I didn't see that one.

It kind of came and went. Yeah. It was a sweet, sweet movie. I like, I thought that, you know, his movies, I was always excited to see his movies. He's a smart guy. He is a smart guy, and he's a wonderful guy. And his wife, Meg, they're just terrific people. So, so that, well, so that got everything rolling. but you did you had a a few small parts i'm trying to

see were you in hand and her sisters i was that's the first that's really i think the first movie i did yeah and that's my father had had a stroke and they came i was in the beginning and i had like five lines uh-huh i played a doctor who was on the phone with woody tell him he over may have a brain tumor oh that you're that that's right and so my dad had a hard time getting like his coat off and he was in the theater and the thing was starting and they were kind of late he was taking his coat off he had popcorn down he puts popcorn down he said i heard your voice he said jesus and i got stuck he said by the time i got up, you were gone. So they sat, they watched the whole movie and then sat through

the beginning again to watch my debut. Isn't it weird that feeling of like, you know, having this, that what you and I would think was

a tremendous break, right? But, you know, when you really look at it in relationship to what they're taking in, you're like, it's still embarrassing.

I know, it is like, that's it? Yeah, right. You don't do it anymore? Right. So this is what

you committed your life to? Well, it's funny because my mother had a high school boyfriend, Bill Indical, Bill somebody, who went out to LA

to become an actor. And my mother was always talking about Bill, oh, he's doing really well out there, Bill. And so my dad

would always roll his eyes, yeah, Bill's doing great. So they said, finally, a movie came to DeKalb that Bill was in. Yeah. It's a boxing movie. So we went to the theater and my dad's sitting there. No Bill.

No Bill. No. Got to the big fight at the end. All of a sudden the last thing, a referee steps in. Break it up. Break it up. That was Bill. My mother was like, see, that's Bill.

Yeah. That was it. So I was Bill. My mother was like, see, that's Bill. Yeah, that was it. So I was Bill in Hannah. Yeah. But had they seen you do theater, though? Oh, yeah. Well, that's good. So you're doing a lot of little movies out here. So you're coming out here a lot.

Yeah, I did. I worked out here a lot. You were in Wolf. So you worked with Mike Nichols. I did. I worked twice with Mike Nichols. Love Mike Nichols. An odd movie, but nonetheless a fully realized movie when he was like you know was

he great to work with i loved him i loved him you know what he did my first day i played this cop this kind of generic cop yes and he said what do you think about this guy yeah i said well i don't think he's really very bright right from what I'm reading, the questions he asks. And he goes, oh, okay, that's interesting. So he said, let's think about this. And it's the first day of shooting. I'm in my office and somebody, Mike Nichols yells out my name. He said, your mother is on line two.

The camera's rolling. Right. It's not in the script. Yeah. So I pick the phone up and go, yeah, Ma. There's nobody on the other rolling. Right. It's not in the script. Yeah. So I picked the phone up and go, yeah, ma, there's nobody on the other end. Yeah. I said, no, mom,

you put the television on three, not the cable box. It was this thing. And then I said, because I was typing and making mistakes, I said, mom, where's my whiteout? Yeah. And finally I said, what are we having tonight?

And I went, oh, God. All right, now hang up. And there's this pause, and Mike Nichols in the other room says, so you live with your mother. And that kind of set the tone for the guy. Oh, that's great. Yeah, and that's what he was like. He was so interesting. He threw you right into an improv.

He just did, and I'm not great at them, but it was like one of those things where you just, all of a sudden, it starts making sense. Yeah, that moment where you realize, okay, this is what this is. Right, this is what this is. And it's for a reason, so I got to lock in. Yeah, yeah.

And it was i loved him i just loved him yeah i i never heard him repeat himself oh yeah no he was always he was so interesting and um just really an interesting well in in terms of like that's a very active engagement with the director it seems to me that you know because i talked to some people i've talked to directors who some of them are sort of like i hire the actor to do the job i'm not gonna you know which is kind of nice yeah i bet if they let you do it yeah you know i'd say that's what don't put your hand there put your hand over he's like i'll put it somewhere yeah but you you deal with both of those types yeah you deal you do. And most directors are terrific people. Well, you worked with David O. Russell early on.

Yeah. Now, I remember that role. Yeah. That was an odd role, right? It was, yeah, really good. You and Josh Brolin. Yeah, we were married. Yeah.

And I think it's a great movie, flirting with his ass. I do, yeah. But he must have been very intense. I mean, it was before he was huge. Yeah, yeah, he was. He was intense, yes. But he's have been very intense. I mean, it was before he was huge. Yeah. Yeah, he was. He was intense, yes. But he's really smart and he's...

Knows what he wants. Well, he... But he lets you play. Yeah. You know, he really wants to see what's going on and have... He likes to jump in there and be part of it. You know, he's really active and... Oh, yeah.

And, you know, he's... I mean, there was... You know, you knew great movies were going to come out of him. Oh, you did? Yeah. He just had a feeling, yeah. Clint Eastwood you worked with? I did.

I'm trying to remember, which movie is that? That was Absolute Power. And the one scene was me shooting and missing. Uh-huh. I think that's why they cast me, because I missed. Yeah. Had they wanted an assassin who was really good, they would have cast somebody else. Yeah.

He's pretty matter of fact. He's really great. He's very laid back. Yeah, he's very laid back. I was, you know, he doesn't like a lot of takes. He likes one. Right. That's what he likes.

Yeah. And so, I mean, you feel a little pressure. It's like, oh, God, I had to put a rifle together on screen. Uh-huh. And I had about 20 minutes to learn how to do it. Right. And, I mean, I was sweating. You never saw so much sweat on me.

Are you ready? He said, I'm ready. And I had to take the butt of the rifle, click it on. I took the scope and clicked that on. I took the barrel and I screwed the barrel on the rifle. You know, like the guy's been doing this his whole life. The rifle's in this little case. And then I take the bolt. I take a bullet. He said, hold the bullet up to the light and blow the dust off the bullet. And he did this. And I said, oh my God, why don't you do it? Because you do it great. He was so good at it. He was. He was great. He's been blowing dust off bullets a long time. I mean, he's just, he's Clint.

You know, he's Clint. He's amazing. And then, so I took the, blew the dust off, put the thing on it, and I aimed the gun, and they said, cut, and the barrel fell off the gun. I had missed the threads, and I was holding it with my fingers. After the cut, though? After the cut. And he went, he just made it.

And then I was supposed to go down and jump in my little Miata and take off. And I put it in reverse and went backwards. I thought he was going to fall off the chair. He was laughing so hard. That's good. I provided a day's entertainment for Clint. That's funny. And he did all these Farrelly Brother movies.

Yep. Because they're New England guys. Yes. How'd they, they must have taken a liking to what you do. They didn't know I was from, I actually built a house on the street they grew up on. Oh, really? Yeah. And.

In Swampscott? In Cumberland. Cumberland. Yeah. I lived there for, I left, I was in Providence for like 20, no, 10 years. Yeah. And I built a house out in the country. Yeah.

And they grew up in that street. Oh, my God. And I met them. How did I meet them? I was doing a movie that they were producing and they weren't. And Bobby said to me, where do you live? I said, Rhode Island. He went, I'm from Rhode Island. I where do you live I said Rhode Island he went I'm from Rhode Island I said where I said Cumberland I'm from Cumberland

where I said Thomas Layton Boulevard because that's where I grew up he was like freaking out and that got you in they got me in well obviously you know you've worked with a lot of big directors. Yeah, they're great. The Coen brothers. Yeah, fantastic. Joel and Ethan are just... Somebody said, what's different about working with Joel and Ethan Coen? Yeah. And some actress, I can't think of her name, she said, well, there's two of them.

Yeah. You know? Right. They're amazing. They're amazing guys. What is that set like? It seems very controlled. No, not at all.

No. No, it's loose and fun. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because their movie seems so goddamn tight. No, not at all. No. No, it's loose and fun. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because their movie seems so goddamn tight. Well, they know what they want. Yeah.

But they also let you do your work. Right. I mean, they want to see, they watch. Do they encourage improvisation? Or you mean they just- No, I mean, sometimes if it comes out, they're not like, oh, don't do that. You know, they don't do a lot of takes. Right.

They're not like, oh, don't do that. They don't do a lot of takes. I love, oh, man, they're great. I just watched Burn after reading recently again. Great. Because the first time I watched them, I'm like, well, you know, it didn't resonate as much as it should have because I love the Coen brothers. So, like, why? I have to do this with Lebowski, too. Like, why is it a great movie?

You know, why is it a Coen brothers movie? And you're like the emotional heart of that movie. I was like, there's not a lot of, uh, redeeming characteristics in any of these people, but which they just adore. It's the first,

it's the only movie they wrote with specific actors in mind. Oh really? Yeah. Well, they called me up. They called me up. I was in, I was,

and they said, Richard, um, Joel and Ethan, they're on the phone. You know, since you're managing hard bodies, we'd love you to work out a lot before you come to shoot. I said, I do. No, no, no. We want you to lift weights.

They said, I do. And there was a pause. Okay, never mind. What were they expecting? That you're going to get ripped? I don't know. But the longing of that character and just that, you know. And now after talking to you for a while, that moment, like that moment where you're about to get shot for the wrong reason.

It seemed like something you could probably really identify with. Yes, absolutely. And my favorite moment was when I show Frances McDormand the picture of me as a Greek Orthodox priest. Right, right. And she says, that must have been a good job. I said, oh, it was. That's the end of it. Great job, yeah.

Yeah, she's great. And you worked with her again recently in the... Olive Kittredge. Oh, my God. That was heavy, huh? It was fun. Yeah. It was fun.

That's some real acting stuff going on there. It just seemed like, you know, because it was a small cast, right? Yeah. You just kind of live your life, you know? Right. It was alive, man. It was just alive.

You spend so much time with these people that it was great. You like working with her? I adore her. I mean, I adore her. She's so good, right? She's fantastic. We've done three, four movies together, but that's the, she called me up and asked me to play Henry.

Yeah. And, you know, this was her baby. She really, she produced it. She bought the rights to the book. Yeah. She hired Jane Anderson and they worked on it for two years to adapt it and they took it to HBO. I mean, she really, this was her baby and it was.

It was great. Oh oh it was a great it was a great um job yeah it was a fantastic job yeah yeah and it did it did good it's called acting jobs i know but well you know it's it's it's interesting that you know having not having wanted to do it and then getting the opportunity to do it, you know, later in life, which I am, is that like, you know, people who like, because you sit around a lot. And I love it. Yeah. People said, isn't it boring? I said, yeah, it is.

It's great. I love it. But, you know, but you probably also love, like, what I had to learn just recently was that, you know, you sit around a lot, but here comes your two minutes. Here you go. And, you know, you've got to really lean into it. I mean, that's what you've been sitting around for. So instead of complaining about it. Well, you have to be careful how you sit around.

Uh-huh. You can't just. Can't eat too much? Well, you can't be doing a lot of stuff too much. Yeah. I mean, if all of a sudden you've got to go do something totally different. Oh, right. I mean, I think Gene Hackman always said, you need to be relaxed.

That's what you need to be. You have to be relaxed before you work. You worked with him on that Just a Clint Eastwood movie? I never met him. Never met the guy. He was in the movie, but I didn't. Isn't he something to watch? He's one of the great ones.

Yeah. He's one of the great ones. I think he said something like, know i know how to fill up like you know he he like i don't he's real yeah you guys are similar natural naturally but he's no he's gene ackman yeah i know he's a rincher jenkins yeah no i know you mean but but yeah but he must have been somebody that would inspire you i loved him island of all i loved of all Those are the two, right? It's natural. There's something.

And Spencer Tracy for me. I just love Spencer Tracy. Oh, yeah. Spencer Tracy, he was sweet and good. He was amazing. Yeah. You watch some of those performances.

A lot of heart. Amazing heart. He was ahead of his time. Yeah. He was really... And then Brando comes along and we all did. Ruins everything. And you just say, how do you his time. Yeah. He was really and then you know Brando comes along and we all did. Ruins everything. And you just say

how do you do that? Yeah. Oh my God. How do you do that? I don't know. I have no idea. I don't know if it's necessary. Well you don't do it

by trying to do it with Marlon Brando. That's right. But you don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of these guys are who they are. Like Montgomery Cliff too

is another kind of. I mean in Red River you mean, in Red River. You see him in Red River, you go, what? This is so different than what these other guys are doing. Right. You can feel it. And it's just so real and alive. Yeah.

And you lean in to watch him. Yeah. It's like he's not coming after you. Yeah. You got to go watch what he's doing. So you're here for the Globes. Hold on. Let's wait. You won an Oscar. That was exciting. I didn't win. I got to go watch what he's doing. So you're here for the Globes. Hold on. Let's wait.

You won an Oscar. That was exciting. I didn't win. I was nominated. Oh, God damn it. No. What happened? I lost.

God damn it. I didn't have a chance. Who were you up against? Mickey Rourke in The Wrestler. It was fantastic. Sean Penn won for Milk. It was amazing. Brad Pitt was up for... Frank Langella was the other guy. Oh, yeah. It was amazing. Brad Pitt was up for Frank Langella

was the other guy. Oh yeah, for Frost Nixon. I don't know. That was a great movie though. You were great in it. I got last. Huh?

I had last. Did they tell you that? Not only did you not win. You got the fewest votes. No, they didn't. Yeah. Hey, Richard, we just wanted you to know

that you weren't even close to me. No, no. I mean, you were like, wait. We thought we just wanted you to know that you weren't even close no no you're like way we thought we'd tell you before the the award so you can enjoy yourself that's the call you get in the car yeah it's not it's not your night not your night but you know i don't know why one would expect it to be your night you know it's it's yeah it doesn't well i thought you won so you should have just went with it. I should have. I should have. But now this is the Golden Globes for this bizarre movie. The Shape of Water.

Yeah, I watched it. You're great in it. Thank you. And it was another heartbreaking person. It was another longing person who can't, you know, it's not working out. It's not working out, but it's finally somebody who realizes it. Yeah. And comes back and says, you know, I got not working out. It's not working out. But it's finally somebody who realizes it. Yeah. And comes back and says, you know, I got nobody and you're my friend.

And why am I not understanding that? Yeah. And why am I not helping you? Whatever you want me to do, I'll do it. Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's a cool, it's a great arc.

What's interesting is it's one of those movies that I wouldn't have watched because I'm like, I'm not a fantasy guy. You know, I don't want to see, like, what is it, a fish guy? I don't know. What is this? And it's not that at all. There's a part of me that talks like that in my head. It's like, who watches those movies? But it's not.

No. I mean, it's like, it's so, you know, you become. It's a human story. Well, yeah, it's a totally human story. And you get so invested in the human story. And it's sort of genius the way the characters are put together. You know, it's how do you do this and make this work? It's just, I mean, until I saw it, I didn't know how he was going to do it.

But what were those sets like? I mean, were they, because it was. he's going to do it. But what were those sets like? I mean, were they, because it was. It was the closest I will ever come to being in a 40s Hollywood movie classic. So they built all that stuff. They built it and it looked, my apartment was, everything was authentic in it and nothing was real.

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. It wasn't real. Yeah. The peeling paint was, it was the most glorious poverty. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. It wasn't real. Yeah. The peeling paint was, it was the most glorious poverty. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, the reds and underneath was green and there was nothing haphazard or accidental about this movie. Right. Right. Right. He's, he's. It's like a theater set almost.

It is like a theater set, but it's, this is somebody who's figured out what movies can do that theater can't. Oh yeah. The opposite of what eugene lee and eugene lee saw the shape of water and he flipped he did he said that's look at that that's what a movie can do right that's a visual story that this guy is told right um and you know it's like lawrence of arabia you you see 200 horses coming around the corner. That's 200 horses coming around the corner. Yeah, yeah. And Garam was a very visual director.

Yeah. And so how he was going to tell the story, I wasn't sure. Uh-huh. But I just, man, I love this movie. I just love this movie. Yeah. I was like, so, I tell you, at the end, I was like, this better not be it. You know, because I was literally.

Don't do this to me. Right. And I was texting, you know, people. I'm like, I'm not sure I can handle this right now. Like, I don't know if I can watch the end of this. Oh, wow. That's fantastic. That's fantastic.

Yeah. That's the truth. I was like, the world is too much. I know. I know. I know. I know. It's like, it's just too much heartache here.

Yeah, right, right. I'm not going to do Bambi again. No. Yeah. And Michael Shannon, I've talked to him. He's an intense dude. He is. He's great.

Everybody was really good. And it's such an interesting world. Like, what year was it really set in? 62. 62. Because there was that weird mixture of reality, you know, of, well, that, you know, it was grounded in that era, you know, in a very real way. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But, you know, because of the, oh, my God. And she was so good. She's fantastic. The whole thing was, it's really interesting. And I guess I don't think I saw his other movies.

What he did, Pan's Labyrinth? Yeah, Pan's Labyrinth. Yeah. Which is, I hadn't seen a lot of his movies. Yeah. And so then I started watching. I mean, you know, you understand this guy always has a real reason for doing something. Yeah.

I think this movie is probably as close to him as one you'll see oh yeah it's it's yeah it's it's i don't know i from i just keep thinking it's morgie aramo than anything he's done oh yeah well yeah i'm just happy i watched it and happy i got to see you and i'm happy i got to talk to you oh my pleasure man and uh And I wish you luck. Now, are your kids in show business? My daughter's a writer. She was an actress for a while. Never really liked it.

It was really good, but never really liked it. And she became a writer and is very happy. TV and movies? A little of everything. Oh, good. Yeah. And my son is a CPA at Price Waterhouse Coopers. Out here?

No, in Boston. He's in Boston. Oh, see, like you strike me as a New England guy. Well, I'm a Midwestern guy. I know. I've been in New England for 48 years. And it's like, you know, there's something great about New England. There is.

My son was a drummer. For? For him. He was going to be a great drummer. Oh, yeah? Was he in a band? No. He was just a great drummer. And I want him to be a great drummer oh yeah was he in a band no he was just a great

drummer and i want him to be a drummer yeah and he said i want to be an accountant i said why would you want to do that you could be a drummer and he is total opposite he has never regretted he he loves his job he's i mean he's like the opposite of what you went it's exactly right it's exactly i was like disappointed my my son wouldn't be a professional drummer. Pursue a heartbreaking life in drumming. It's like, I mean... And he said, no. I said, why?

He said, because I don't love it enough to work as hard as I'd have to work to be good enough to make a living at it. He said, no. And this is... His kid had it together. He knew his limitations right there. Oh, saved himself a lot of heartache. And he loves being a CPA. Does he play the drums anymore?

They're sitting in my basement. Oh. And no, he doesn't play them. You don't call him like once a year and go like, come on. Well, he comes over. When he comes home, he plays. He sits down and plays. Oh, does he?

Yeah, a little bit. Oh, that's nice. Just to keep you happy. Every Father's Day, he would send me a drum tape that he would make to some song that I liked. He would listen to the song, learn the drum part, then he would play it with the song. Oh, so that's how you make your actor dad happy. You make your actor dad happy. And my daughter, when she stopped being an actress and became a writer, she just became, you could tell that was meant to be.

Yeah. Yeah. It was just so great. So they're happy. My kids are, you know what's that thing, you're only happy as your saddest child? Uh-huh. My kids are both doing really well, knock on wood, yeah. That's great.

Do you have grandkids? My daughter, I have a seven-month-old granddaughter. First one? First one. My son just got married in June. My daughter's been married to this fabulous guy who's a writer. So now you've got a grandkid. I have a grandkid, Franny. Beautiful, beautiful.

Where do they live? Close? They live in Brooklyn. And my son's in Boston. East Coast. Oh, congratulations. And good luck on Sunday. Oh, and also I loved your work on Six Feet Under. Thank you. I mean, I could say that about a lot of things, but, you know, we just... I feel weird when I just start going through the resume. Oh, yeah, you're in that.

That's great. Oh, don't ever feel weird about it. I'm an actor. Why, thank you, Mark. Big fan. Thanks, man. Thanks. That was Richard Jenkins.

The Shape of Water, obviously, is in theaters now. And I wish him luck tonight at the Critics' Choice Awards. I'll see him there. It's too early to play guitar. I'm recording this early in the morning. Can't do it. I think I'm going to go look on the roof. Don't worry about me, though.

That's what I'm going to do. I'm probably going to do it, though. Now, what i'm gonna do i'm probably gonna do it though now you know what i'm just i'm not gonna do it okay don't worry about me i'm not going up there all right have a good day boomer lives We'll be right back. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes.

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