WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 884 - Don Was

Episode Date: January 24, 2018

Bass player and record producer Don Was is a Renaissance man in the music world. Whether he's producing albums for bands like the Rolling Stones or running the jazz label Blue Note Records or playing in his own band Was (Not Was) or directing documentaries about fellow musicians like Brian Wilson, Don always knows what he's doing. As he tells Marc, Don attributes a lot of his expertise to growing up in Detroit just as a pivotal shift in the American music scene was happening in the Motor City. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Take a closer look at how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! store and a cast creative all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fucksters this is mark maron uh this is wtf this is my podcast welcome to it i just realized sometimes when i do that how what the fuckers what the fuck you know like i mean i've been doing that a long time and uh there are moments where i'm like wow that just i just annoyed myself but but i keep doing it because it's a signature thing i mean if i started taking away all the little things that i do on a regular basis

what am i left with if i take away all the ticks and habits and uh recurring bits of business that i've been doing most of my life or at least my life public life on this show what have we got you know what i mean we don't want you guys those things protect all of us from what's inside me. You got to have your tics and habits and idiosyncrasies and repetitions just so you don't fall apart. So today on the show, music producer and musician Don Was. Don Was, you would know. You would see Don Was. You know what Don Was is.

You know who he is. Was not was, was his band. But he's also also prolific producer. And now he's the, uh, he's the president of blue note records and doing some cool things over there. But this was a good conversation because he's worked with the stones exclusively.

Uh, a lot. I don't know. Not exclusively. Why do you even use that word? But, but he produced the last one blue and lonesome and he's worked with the stones before.

And I'm a stones person. So I'm just giving you stones people a head up that there's some good chat about producing the Rolling Stones and also about working with the Stones, but also some good talk about remastering and stuff. It's a music talk. But I was engaged, and I like it, and I like seeing him in my garage because he's always one of those guys, a bass player generally, and you kind of see him in backing bands

here and there over the years. He's got these dreads and this little beard and he usually wears sunglasses and a hat and you're like, there's that guy. And I talked to that guy and he's done a lot of stuff and it was kind of a great talk. So that's happening.

That's happening today momentarily. All right? I do want to tell you about my experience at the SAG Awards if you didn't, well, I mean, you can only watch so much, but first,

out of the gate here, some guy called me out here in an email, subject line, Radio Shack? Question mark, question mark, question mark,

question mark. Hi, Mark. Going to Radio Shack to acquire the parts to fix your cable will require a time machine. I could tell you how to build

said time machine, but it will require a parts list from Radio Shack. Good luck. Love the show. I hope the transition to your new home goes smoothly from here on out. Sincerely, Bowser. Yeah, I did say I was going to Radio Shack on the last show.

And not only did I say I was going to go, I went to where the Radio Shack was, knowing in my brain that all the Radio Shacks are gone, but seemingly some part of me unwilling to accept that all Radio Shacks are gone. You didn't go to Radio Shack much. And a lot of times what you bought there was relatively disposable because you buy too many of them because you're trying to fix something yourself or whatever. But it was a sort of a constant.

But Radio Shack is gone. And if you want to get that stuff day of you know it's hard you can get it day after on amazon i guess i guess everything happens quicker but what happened to the journey what happened to the journey folks that's what we're missing now is that you know i got to get a thing i got to see what store has it where is that place are they open uh let's drive over there maybe we'll get something to eat on the way oh shit it's not here but look there's this store i wonder what's in this place remember that remember getting out in the world and doing things remember where you know a sort

of a shopping rabbit hole could actually require a car you just go and you're like god we passed a place it looks like it might have that let's go there holy shit i didn't even know this was here did you know this whole thing here's what happened to that gone human engagement with the outside world gone sad and i'm not grieving for radio shack and then there was that brief time where they tried to call it the hut or oh no radio hut no the shack where are you going going the shack pick up a plug they tried to hipsterize radio shack to save it let's go down the shack get some batteries hang out at the shack i'm gonna get some uh blank cassette tapes at the shack see again i used to go to i used to go down there get blank cassette tapes that the mem. See? Again, I used to go down there, get blank cassette tapes.

They had the Memorex brand, the Ultras, and the Hi-Tech, and then they had the Radio Shack brand. Oh, boy. Back in the day, I used to go out, drive. I did do some driving to do a thing today for Laurie Metcalf. There's a tease for you. What's that story about? Maybe I'll tell you. All right, so what was I saying?

Oh, the SAG Awards were very exciting. They were very fun. As some of you know, I lost. I was not expecting to win. I was up against William Macy, who won. Come on. And there were other people too, but I wasn't expecting to win.

I was actually excited to be nominated and to be at this thing. So many of the people have been on this show, but it's all actors and it's almost like a community event. These awards were decided by the community of actors. They were voted on by actors and it's an actor's event. There's a lot of celebrities there, sure. But it doesn't feel like a business event or a producer's event or an agent's event or a critic's event. It's just a room full of actors and people who are related and connected to these actors.

And it was very exciting because I like looking at celebrities. Everyone knows that. But I did. I got to be honest with you. And it's not I'm not tooting my own horn. I was happy to be there with a purpose. I felt part of something. Glow was nominated for ensemble and stunt work, and I was nominated for best male actor

in a comedy, and Allison was nominated for best female actor in a comedy. So it was very exciting. We were all at the table, and right behind me, Susan Sarandon was sitting next to Gina Davis. I saw Laurie Metcalf was over at the Lady Bird table. And so was Greta Gerwig and Tracy Letts, who I interviewed, who will be on the show soon, who I love, Tracy Letts. It's a funny story about Tracy Letts.

I don't know if I'll tell it now or when his episode is on. But everyone was there. Everyone was there. And, you know, I said hi to Susan Sarandon. She's been on the show. We had a little chat, said hi to Greta Gerwig. Like, I felt okay saying hi to these people. I didn't feel okay, for some reason, at the Critics' Choice because I thought, well, who am I?

Do you know what I mean? Even though I was nominated, I don't know. It's not humility. It's just insecurity. But for some reason in this room, I was very excited to say hi to everybody. And I didn't. I met some people. I saw some old friends.

I saw Matt Walsh over there. Veep won for Best Ensemble. Beat us, but I was happy to see Matt. Hadn't seen him in a while. I saw Sam Rockwell. He's been on the show. He's winning everything. It's great.

He was sitting at the next table over with the three billboards table. He gave me a big hug. I gave him a big hug. Congratulated him. The first joke or the second joke that Kristen Bell made was about GLOW and about my podcast, and it got a big laugh. Again, I'm not tooting my own horn. I feel like I was there because I belonged, not because I was a guy that just interviewed people.

It was exciting. It was fun. I like seeing everybody, and i like that they that they knew me and i like that not only they know me because they'd been in my garage but they knew me because you know i was nominated for a thing i don't know why i don't think that uh i i don't whatever my i wore my suit i went with sarah the painter and i felt part of part of man part of a community i'm a part of the community of comics which i've always been last night i was behind the comedy store hanging out with bill burr smoking a cigar with some old

pals from the boston days jackie flynn and al du charme just hanging out telling stories holding a little court with burr and the cigars and the boston guys the comedy the rogues and gypsies of the comedy world are really my family, but it was nice to be in the acting world. Well, here's what happens. Outside of having a joke made about me, which I found very flattering, and chatting with different people, Jason Bateman, I ran into him. He was very nice, and I ran into Jordan Peele, congratulated him him but i will tell you this story so we're all hanging out my table the glow table there's two tables a table and a half a glow and people have to kind of move through the room there's thin little in between tables there's there's a little

there's not they're not a lot of a lot of room and then like all of a sudden i'm standing up and i see uh francis mcdormand and a few people moving towards me they need to get by me because i'm at the head of the table they need to walk behind me and i'm standing up it's on a break or it's before the show starts and she's coming right at me and i'm a big fan and i i respect her a great deal and uh i i i've always wanted to have her on the show i was just going to step out of her way and then i thought like just introduce yourself man so she's walking right towards me to get around me with all these people and i said uh hi francis i'm and she goes i know who you are mark maron i know who you are and i'm like oh okay she goes you were great on glow you were great i thought it was a i didn't

i don't usually watch things but i started watching it and i watched it and you were great i mean everyone knows that guy everyone's known one of those guys. So like on some level, she liked Glow. She thought I was great in it as an actor. So I won. I won at the SAG Awards. I won. Frances McDormand made me a winner.

I'd love to have her on the show. And Willem Dafoe actually chatted with me this time. Remember I said at the Critics' Choice, I thought maybe he didn't. I didn't think he registered. But we had a nice chat on the red carpet waiting to get pictures taken. I'm still a little bit of a who's this guy. But that's all right. You look, I'm completely, I'm way ahead.

It's all gravy. I didn't anticipate any of this. And it was a good time. It was a really good time. I'll tell you. Oh, I want to any of this. And it was a good time. It was a really good time. I'll tell you. Oh, I want to tell you this. So Robert De Niro's there, right? After the SAG Awards, you go basically next door to another room where they have the party.

And you kind of move in through this one door. And then there's separate areas. There's like booths and there's food and whatever. So I walk in with sarah and like robert de niro's just sitting on a couch there uh you know talking to another guy and i'm like oh my god there's robert de niro and sarah's like you should go introduce yourself i'm like what am i gonna i'm not gonna what i'm gonna interrupt robert de niro to do what what am i really what am i gonna i keep no i'm not doing that i'm not gonna introduce myself to robert de niro or tell him he's whatever.

I just, it didn't feel right. And then I walk about another 10 feet. I'm like, all right. Okay. Maybe, maybe I should go introduce myself to Robert De Niro. I don't know what I'm going to say, but maybe I'll go try. So I'm walking back to where Robert De Niro, he's sitting down at a little couch. It's a circuit.

It's around a pillar kind of thing. And there's a lot of people around, but everyone's moving moving but he's just sort of there talking to another guy and i'm walking towards robert de niro and then i see a guy maybe like five to ten feet away just standing there by himself uh a dude just standing there just you know not talking to anybody big guy and he looks at me and i look at him and he and he you know he no he acknowledges me. So I walk over and he introduces himself as this guy, Chris Sullivan from This Is Us. He said he was a fan of my work or whatever. And he's just standing there. And then I realized, I'm like, are you waiting to try to say hi to Robert De Niro?

He's like, yeah, kind of. And I'm like, oh, I didn't realize there was a line. He's like, what are you going to do? He's like, well, I'm just going to wait for my window. There's a wait for my... And I'm like, I was going to do that too, but I think I'm going to keep moving because I don't really think we should.

It was just such an awkward thing. I'm like, you go ahead and do it. I'll do it another time, maybe another event. You don't want to be a line of people trying to act nonchalant, you know, six feet away from where Robert De Niro is talking to a friend of his. Just like, you know, I'm growing massive people me some other guy another guy steps up it's like yeah we're kind of we're kind of waiting not even talking to each other just kind of like acting

like nothing's going on so needless to say i did not meet robert de niro i hope chris did so uh maybe maybe he'll let me know so anyways okay let's get on with it i'll remind me to tell the tracy let story how are you going to remind me you're the listener i'll tell it when he's on because it was kind of funny but it ties into something he said at the end of his conversation with me anyways laurie metcalf left her hoodie here her steppenwolf hoodie so i had to go out into the world because she needed it. She went to New York to do a play and they were going to do a photo shoot and she needed it to do. They wanted her to wear a thing.

And it's her favorite hoodie. So I went down the post office and I overnighted Lori Metcalf her hoodie. I got out in the world. You people think that I'm a mid-level celebrity. I don't have people running around doing things like that. And I like to do it. I'm just supportive of getting out in the world to do mundane errands, buy things, whatever. Oh, you're probably going like, why didn't you use stamps?

Why didn't you use the stamps? Why didn't you use the stamps for the overnight? Don't call me out on stamps.com. I need to be there tomorrow so Lori could have her hoodie. Anyway, Don was. I enjoyed this conversation. It's a music conversation. As I said, you may know him from the guy with the hat and the dreadlocks and the beard and the sunglasses.

He was in Was Not Was. He's a big music producer. He's a bass player, and now he's the president of blue note records. And they've just launched this blue note review volume one piece, love and fishing. This is a, it's a box set subscription series, and it's limited to a production of 1500 sets.

You can get it at blue note review.com. So volume one just came out. I think they're going to come out twice a year. I got it. It's a beautiful box. It's got a reissue of a Blue Note record. It's got a new record of live performances. This one had different ones.

It's got some other stuff in it. Some pictures. A scarf. Yeah. Anyway, we'll talk about it. This is me and Don. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means.

I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that.

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T's and C's apply. Buzz. So you're Don Buzz. You're the guy. I'm a guy, yeah. But you're the guy I've been seeing like there in the background for my whole life. Who's that guy on bass? What's that guy doing?

The zealot of rock and roll. Here's that guy. There's that guy again. And then people mention you. Oh, yeah, Don was on that one. Oh, that guy. You're like always there. Your presence.

Where'd you grow up? I'm from Detroit. Really? Yeah. What's the real name? Faginson. Faginson. Yeah, it's too close to Donald Fagan.

What kind of name is Faginson? It's an Ellis Island name. Sure. Yeah, like they all are. But what's the background? My grandfather came over from Russia, family legacy. Yeah. Which I don't think is true, by the way,

but the legacy is that he said, they said, what's your name? He said, Vergasin. Vergasin? Yiddish for forgotten. Oh, wow. Because he was pretty sure the czar was going to come over here and take him back. So he was just saying, just let it be nothing.

But I don't think that's true. They're actually, the name exists in Russia. I've come from Russian Jews. Yeah? Yeah. From where? From, you know, I just looked it up. Now I can't remember.

But yeah, my father's side's Russian. My grandmother's Polish. Polish and Russian, mostly. We're on it. That's it. Probably cousins. That's one of the brand. That's a brand of jew

that comes over the american jew polish russian or the darker ones the sephardic ones who the swarthy ones but uh well yeah man so detroit so was it so what how the whole family comes from detroit your grandfather moved to detroit my grandfather moved to detroit all grandfather moved to Detroit. All my grandparents moved. And my mom and dad moved to Detroit. Really? Because I don't think I've met a full clan of,

or heard about a full clan of Detroit Jews. Oh, yeah. They're like, fuck New York. I think you got to be my age. I'm 65. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. Yeah, right. But Motor City.

So like, what was going on? How many siblings you got? I got a sister. Yeah. She's the, what is her gig? She's the official statistician of the United States of America. Oh, really? She still got a job?

Yeah. It's not a government job? Is it a government job? Is it a government job? It is a government job. Uh-huh. I better not talk about it. I want to get it next. Yeah, right.

We got a president that only likes numbers a certain way. Yeah. In his favor. Yep. But so what was it like in Detroit? Because I just saw the movie Detroit, and it was not good. I mean, the movie was good, but it seemed horrible. Like a war zone in the 60s.

Well, that week, yeah. You know, I mean, it wasn't a great place to be a person of color, but what is? Yeah, right. You know, your show with Benny Maupin was great. And Benny talked a lot about growing up in Detroit. He's about 12 years older than me. Yeah. So, you know, take out Yusuf Lateef and put in MC5 and the Stooges.

Uh-huh, right. You got the era I come from. Oh, yeah? The Stooges played in my high school. The other side of town. It was your high school? Yeah. That famous high school?

Yeah. Did they do it a lot? Because I know there's one where there's pictures of them. Yeah, it's not that one i went to oak park high school yeah but they played a sock hop or something come on yeah is that are you making it up i i don't think so were you there that's kind of there yeah what year that's physically 68 maybe 69 somewhere in there so they were just making that note? Did they have a set? They were a local band. Bob Seger played in my high school.

Parliament Funkadelic played in my junior high school. Stop it. Well, they were called the Parliaments. Oh, okay. But that must have been before they broke it open. Oh, yeah. No, they lip synced. I just want to testify.

They came with a DJ from a local AM station, and they move like the Temptations, but they were dressed like hippies, and they blew everybody's mind. I bet you they did. Really something. But they didn't do any long sort of spaced out kind of synthesizing. No, no, no. No, they lip synced at 45. I heard that that was not an uncommon thing, the lip syncing.

I talked to Hunt Sales, and him and Tony were like kids, and they'd do the lip syncing gigs. You had to. There were no PAs. You know, you couldn't set up a band. You'd go with the DJ. Yeah.

It was kind of an early form of payola. A DJ would get a gig at a sock hop. Right. Maybe get 150 bucks for showing up and emceeing.

And all the kids loved the DJ. The kids loved the DJ but the bands played free and he'd play the record. The kids loved the DJ. Yeah, right. But the bands played free. Yeah. And he played the record. Right. No PA needed, really.

No PA needed. I can't believe the Stooges. That must have been something at that time. They were badass, man. They were, right? Yeah. I mean, like, what were they doing? Were they doing covers?

I mean- No, no, they were doing, you know, I Want to Be Your Dog. They were doing that thing. The first album. Yeah, they were playing. Did people look just like, well, what the fuck? What the fuck is happening? Or were they already accustomed to- No, no, it was, you know, I Want to Be Your Dog, the first album. Did people look just like, well, what the fuck? What the fuck is happening? Or were they already accustomed to?

No, it was the Detroit thing, man. Yeah? There was a whole, you know, Stooges and the Five were like it. A really pivotal experience for me was one night we went down to Joel Landy's print shop where he printed up the Fifth Estate, which was the local underground paper the guy I went to high school with. And the MC5 were there, or members of the MC5, I know Wayne was there, jamming with members

of Pharaoh Saunders' band. Wow, yeah. Now, I know I didn't even have half my wits about me that night, but I do know that I never heard anything like that before. Yeah. Or really after. Sure.

It required those individuals under those circumstances. Right. The one-time thing. It was a one-time thing, but it was a first, and that really stayed with me. Yeah. Make something that no one's ever heard before. Sure.

That's a really good thing to do. Yeah, if you can do it's a really good thing to do yeah if you can do it right if you can do you can do it sure but it's not easy but you got but it's selling it it's a part of that equation or that doesn't matter well i don't know i i believe that if you do original soulful stuff yeah that comes from an honest place yeah that's your best business plan sure and people will dig it someone will but like the more I talk about it

or just thinking about it right now with you it seems that Detroit was equally as important in American music on some levels as New Orleans

in a way yeah I don't I know my friends from New Orleans will take umbrage but I'm 100% with you deeper history deeper history in New Orleans right take umbrage at this, but I'm 100% with you. Deeper history. That's right.

Deeper history in New Orleans, right? But Detroit- Deeper history, but Detroit- Not in music, to rock and roll. After World War II, people came from not just all over the country, but all over the world to work in the auto factory. Make those cars. And they brought their cultures with them.

And that was the beauty of growing up when they actually made cars in Detroit. Yeah, right. the beauty of growing up when they actually made cars in detroit yeah right was that you heard every kind of music and when people would come together and combine the music yeah you'd get incredible stuff sure i was really fortunate to grow up in a in that time yes it was a huge industry huge man yeah yeah we're making the cars for the world. For the world, Motor City. Yeah, and then I guess some of that, I mean, I don't know if that's more of a metaphoric or poetic idea that some of that,

kind of like that groove of making machinery, like assembly lines. I don't think that really made its way into the music necessarily. Here's what I think made its way into the music is that everybody who was from Detroit in that period of time came from a situation where their fate was inextricably tied to the auto business. So, for example, my parents were both teachers. Yeah.

But if auto sales were down, they'd lay off workers. Workers would move away to another city to find new work. Yeah. And so there'd be fewer kids in school. So they'd lay off teachers. They'd lay off barbers. They'd lay off waitresses. So everybody was in the same boat.

And there was really no point in putting on any airs because everyone knew the story. So no one was renting Mercedes. I never saw a Rolls Royce until I got out here. There's maybe one limo in Detroit when I was, and it's probably like parked at the airport. You never saw that stuff

because there was really no point in pretending you were something else. That's the beauty of it. So you get a really honest population and the music and the art and the culture of Detroit reflects that. It's music and the art and the culture of Detroit reflects that. It's basic

and it's raw and it's for real. Yeah. John Lee Hooker to me is the epitome of Detroit music. When did you start playing?

In the in the in the late 50s when I was you know in like six or seven. Always bass? No I was

piano and guitar. Yeah. And and, you know, in like six or seven. Always bass? No, I was piano and guitar. Yeah. And then, you know, like a lot of guys my age, I was born in 1952. We were 12 when the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan. Right. Yeah, I hear about this, that moment. That's it, you know. And at 12, you would, you know, you looked at it and you thought,

wow, I could use that edge with chicks, right? That's what everybody says. A little help would go a long way. And at 12, you're just dumb enough to think that you can actually pull it off. If you were a little older, maybe you'd have said, well, I'd like to do that, but maybe I should get that law degree to fall back on.

And if you were eight, it didn't register. So a lot of musicians my age, an inordinate number of people born my year and i really attributed to that so we started forming rock and roll bands to the beatles on sullivan you're like that's our window absolutely we just got to wear the same clothes and play okay we can get girls yeah well it seemed that way it's a little more complicated uh-huh But it kind of works. So what was the first band?

First band was called The Saturns. Uh-huh. And we won a local TV talent show. Originals, covers, what? We'd had some originals. Yeah. They weren't very good. I think we covered, we did Let's Twist Again.

Uh-huh. With Chubby Checker and- Not the twist, the Let's twist again like we did last summer. Like we did last summer. Sure. Yeah. People are already twisting. People are twisting. And we won.

We just want to make sure they keep them twisting. Exactly. So you want to be part of that. That's right. Yeah. And you won. Yeah. Yeah, we won.

Did you do a record? No, we won a portable TV set. Four guys, one TV set. And so we sold it at the drummer's dad had a drugstore. Sold it for 60 bucks. Yeah. And what'd you do with that? Split it up?

Probably bought records. Probably bought records. Sure, man. Yeah. And then when did you start, like, did you do any records with bands before your bands? Before like Was Not Was, like way back? No, it was hard. You had to earn your way into a studio.

Oh, really? Well, you didn't have to. You couldn't just pay? No one had a garage band on their laptop. Sure. So you had to have some money. Get a backer, have a hit, have a song. Someone wanted to move. Well, you had to earn it. You had to earn some money. Yeah. And you had to have some- Get a backer, have a hit, have a song. Someone wanted to move.

Well, you had to earn it. You had to earn the slot. And so I was just playing a lot. And ultimately, took a class in engineering where they taught everything wrong, but it got me in the studio. Oh, really? Wait, how old were you? I was probably in my early 20s at that point.

After high school? Did you go to college? Yeah, I went to University of That's probably in my early 20s at that point. After high school? Did you go to college? I went to University of Michigan for a year. Yeah. In Ann Arbor? In Ann Arbor, yeah. That's a good town. It's a great town, man.

But this is like, so you're, like, Kramer and those guys, they were a little older than you, right? By what? Two years or something. That's it? Yeah, but that's a big difference in that, you know, when you're, there's a difference between being 14 and 16, you know. In the late 60s. Yeah. I guess, yeah.

But, I mean, you were of that age, so, you know, you saw the culture kind of breaking apart. Oh, yeah. You're old enough to, you were born in 54, 52? 52, yeah. So, I was born in 63. So, by 65, I mean, you're wide awake. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You just saw the whole thing, the wheels come off. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No no it was an exciting time you know not uh not too dissimilar to this time in many ways but uh the the the uh the counterculture has not quite manifested the way it did then but well that no one goes outside anymore man it takes a lot to get people out and also everybody can live in their own fucking world on their computer they can just cherry pick the community they're in if they're in any at all going outside is the is the thing yeah go to the thing not like how far away is it they're gonna be parking at the protest how are we gonna let me check ways yeah right it's jam free no it looks like like we were getting in. But did you go? Were you part of that?

Did you go to those MC5 shows? Yeah, I went to MC5 shows. I went to anti-war riots. Because Sinclair was sort of out there, and he was doing this. John Sinclair. Yeah. He was my hero, man. We were still good friends.

Yeah, I love John. Oh, yeah? He's still around? Yeah, but he was the guy. He was the leader of the city, man. He was, of the counterculture. Yeah. Yeah.

So you were hanging out with that at his place? I was on the counterculture yeah yeah yeah and like that so you were hanging out with that at his place i was on the young side i couldn't move in right to the comic mc5 you know it probably saved you the fact that you couldn't move in probably saved you a life of drug addiction and horror yeah maybe maybe you made it out of that one. I dabbled anyway. But it probably was a good thing. You seem clear-eyed. You come out of it all right. Yeah, you did all right. You don't look too beat up.

So you take this engineering class. Yeah. And what happens? How do you get? I found my way into a job at a studio and just started recording. In Detroit? Yeah. What studio?

Who are you? Well, a guy named Jack Tan had a little place called Mastermind Studios. In Detroit? Yeah. What studio? Who were you? Well, a guy named Jack Tan had a little place called Mastermind Studios, $10 an hour, on top of an abandoned, like it was the Westinghouse building. Yeah. And we had these cardboard boxes on the walls

and it was funky, but it was making records. Yeah? Yeah. And who were you making records of? Oh man, just anybody who come through you know some jazz yeah the first session i did was for a jazz saxophone player named sam sanders someone just put it out by the way oh really in the uk someone licensed it and

yeah that was the first session i ever did and you just were you just an engineer i was just engineering it yeah someone put it out because of you or because everyone's putting out all there's there seems to be a tremendous global race on who can find the weirdest most esoteric records to put on 180 gram vinyl or re-release of something that's exactly what this is oh yeah it's like i found one i found one of chet atkins under his car didn't even mean to be playing for me like, like those acquired tastes, the out there shit. Like I like that just on when I'm doing shit. Like sort of like, where are we going? I think that a lot of that stuff, people go like, what the fuck is this? If you're sitting there with expectations.

But if you just let it roll, you know, you can kind of like edit. Okay. Well, the stuff will jump out. Yeah. A really important thing happened to me when I was about 14. I was driving around with my mom running errands, and she left me in the car with the keys so I could play with the radio.

It was on a Sunday in the local jazz station broadcast on AM on a Sunday. And I tuned into the station just as a song that I later discovered was part of the Blue Note catalog, Mode for Joe by Joe Henderson came on. And if you play that song, check out, I came in just as the saxophone solo was starting. Yeah.

And it wasn't about notes. It wasn't about techniques. Yeah. He was like howling with anguish. Yeah, yeah. Through the horn. Yeah. And he was speaking to me.

I was 14, man. I was stunned to hear this. Well, just listen to the solo. Mode for Joe. Yeah. It was anguished. I was stunned to hear this. Well, just listen to the solo. Angry sax. Yeah, it was anguished. Yeah. He was in pain. Yeah.

And then the drummer, Joe Chambers, kicks in about 20 seconds. Yeah. And the thing starts to swing like crazy. And he falls into the groove. And the message that came through to me as a 14-year-old was, Don, you got to groove in the face of adversity.

And it really struck me. Like, what kind of music is this? I went out and I bought an FM, portable FM radio. Just to listen to the jazz station? Just to listen to WCHD, yeah. And yeah, I soon found that a lot of the music that was speaking to me was coming out of what was then a very obscure little label called Blueno Records. Back then. Back then.

And my buddies and I, we'd ride buses across town just to hold the albums. We couldn't afford them. They were four bucks. Yeah. But you could read the liner notes and see that you'd check the names because it was like a repertory company of musicians. So that was your first, you're a jazz guy at heart? I mean, because... Yeah, you know, I don't really differentiate.

I mean, Bob Dylan was super important to me. Stones was super important to me. Right, right. But yeah, the jazz really spoke to me from the time I was a young teenager. But it's interesting because that form, you know, you're kind of a popular music guy, really, production-wise, right? As a producer, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

You know, because there's a certain level of chops, and I don't know how much jazz you play. Not that much anymore, but that's how it came up. I played bars, played bebop in Detroit until I was in my 30s. Really? Just playing bars. Did you play stand-up bass? Yeah, stand-up and electric. Really?

Yeah. So you go to engineering school, but you're still playing. Oh, yeah. That's how I lived. When did you pick up the bass? I picked up the bass when I was in high school because there were a couple of keyboard players who were better than me and a couple of guitar players who were better than me and a couple of guitar players who were better than me

and there were no bass players. So it was just a practical decision at the time. Although Paul McCartney was a pretty cool bass player. He was, right? And I could relate

to what he was playing. Yeah. Ron Carter was a mystery. Paul McCartney, I was like, this is genius and I can play this thing kind of do that yeah it's you can figure this out yeah i don't know where that other guy's going and that that

takes some work all right so that so that was your thing you're playing behind who do you do any the the main person i worked with was like a hard bop piano player woman by the name of lenore paxton i played with her for 10 years and we just did bars in Detroit and mostly a club called Bob and Rob's Lounge out in Claussen, Michigan. And I probably learned more about music from her than anybody

for the rest of my life. Did she record? Not really. Really? But 10 years you were with her? Yeah, yeah. Maybe longer even, you know, on and off. Was you her and a drummer? And horns? No horns?

No, no horns. It was a trio. And the owner, Bob and Rob's, was a singer who had this kind of Dick Hames. He was good. Yeah? He was really too good to be like owning just a bar in Detroit. Uh-huh. And he'd get up and sing with us.

It was great, man. It was a great period of time. We'd do four or five sets a night. I wouldn't know any of the songs. I'd have to, she'd start, and she'd help me a little bit with her left hand, pointing out what the chords were. And then one time through, I better remember it

because she was taken off. And it was great, man. It was great for building my ears and my chops and for exploring things. And also the whole scene, man. Playing in bars is so much fun. I just walk around and you just talk to the wildest people and hang out with them. And it was really cool. So you're doing that.

You're playing with her. You're playing with other things. Yeah, all kinds of stuff. I played with a great local folk musician named Ted Lucas. The strangest booking we ever had was we had a multiracial

folk band that somehow got booked to open for Black Sabbath at the Toledo Sports Arena. What year? Early 70s. Uh-huh. And we didn't make it throughout the first song.

We were pelted with bottles and the drummer was bleeding and we stopped. Oh, my God. But I met Ozzy there. So that was after like the second Sabbath record, something like that?

Maybe the first? Yeah. First or second? Well, they were on a U.S. tour, but it was pretty early on. But they were big enough to sell out the Toledo Sports Arena. Uh-huh. Yeah. So it must have been after that. Yeah, they were probably a US tour, but it's pretty early on. But they were big enough to sell out the Toledo Sports Arena. Uh-huh.

Yeah. So it must have been after that. Yeah, they were probably a couple records in. Yeah. It could have just as easily been in 74. How was it? What was it like watching them at that point? Oh, he's great, man.

Yeah. That's a great band. Yeah, it is a great band. And Ozzy ended up singing on a Was Not Was record. He did? He sings. I'll tell you a story, man. We had a song that none of our singers could sing.

And so Michael Zilka, who ran Z Records, said, there's this wonderful girl from Detroit. You should use her. She's going to be a very big star. Yeah. And it was Madonna, right? Right. Before she put out her first record. So we recorded her.

We spent a couple days doing it. And she was great, man. I loved her. She was really sweet. And she worked real hard. But it didn't sound like was not was. Right. And I said, Michael, we can't put this out.

He said, you're making a huge mistake. She's going to be very big. I said, no, man. She's a disco singer. Is this the first record you're talking? This is Born to Laugh at Tornadoes. Okay, yeah, yeah. A song called Shake Your Head.

Okay. It's on the second album, The Geffen. Yeah. And so we took her off. And then it was like, well, what are we going to do now? So my attorney also represented Ozzy. And he said, well, call Ozzy. And Ozzy did it.

Now, years later, we had Ozzy and Madonna on parallel tracks. And so we redid it as a duet with Ozzy did it. Now, years later, we had Ozzy and Madonna on parallel tracks. And so we redid it as a duet with Ozzy and Madonna. And to her credit, Madonna nixed it. And Kim Basinger came in and sang it. And it's actually, it was outside of the United States. It was our biggest hit single ever. Which one? It's called Shake Your Head, duet with Kim Basinger and Ozzy Osbourne.

And Kim was so sweet, man. She flew to London and she did a video with us. Kim Basinger's not known for that kind of thing. Well, she can sing, man. She's a wonderful person, man. I don't think people have a clue as to how... I just know her as an actress. I don't know if she was a singer.

Yeah, good singer. Yeah. Alright. But that record, it seems like you had Mitch Ryder on there, too? Yeah, Mitch Ryder. And Kramer was on there? Wayne's on it. Yeah, Marshall Crenshaw's on it. Doug Feiger from the Knack.

Wow. Are they a Detroit band? Yeah, well, Doug, I was in a band with him when I was 12. Really? Yeah. Yeah, no, he's a good friend. I was in high school when that shit hit. Yeah.

My Sharona. Yeah. All right, so you're playing all these different gigs with these people, so you put together Was Not Was, and it was sort of like, what was the vision of the band, man? The vision of the band was to- Because it's sort of a funk band, eclectic band. It was very eclectic, although if you're from Detroit,

it makes perfect sense. It's just everything we grew up with. In fact, the first album had Wayne Kramer playing guitar and Marcus Belgrave, a great jazz trumpeter who played with Charles Mingus

and Charles, he was playing trumpet and we had guys from P-Funk playing Larry Fratangelo, the percussionist on all those records was on it.

So, it was just an amalgamation of our roots. Of the Detroit sound? Yeah, with David's lyrics on top which were you know heavily influenced that wasn't so detroit that was more zappa and beat poetry and and him

he's a david was as a as an original man there's no one like him is he still around yeah he's around here he lives in la oh yeah and and were you a zappa guy? Love Zappa. Yeah? Yeah, about the first, I met him at the airport. They were on a local TV show called Swingin' Time in Detroit in the 60s promoting their upcoming

Freak Out album, the first release. Yeah. They went on, they blew our minds. We saw that and then I saw him at the airport the next day

and he gave me an autographed picture and stuff. So, all right, so you do, you work in and then you put out

an 81 Was Not Was record, the first one. Yeah. And this is where production in records gets a little odd, doesn't it? You mean in that period of time? Yeah. In the 80s where the style of production, like there's a lot more tools at hand. Well, let's start, I mean, it was before the computer stuff.

Right. But we did those things. Like, they didn't have the digital drum machines. Right. And they had like little 808s were around and that kind of thing. But what we did was we'd have a drummer come in first. Yeah. And play the beat that I had in my head.

Right. And then we'd take the two best bars and you'd cut a tape loop, which is you'd take the two-inch tape. Uh-huh. And you'd measure the start of one bar and cut it for two bars and cut on the bass drum for the next one. And then you'd tape it together into a circle. Then you'd set up these mic stands all over the control room and you'd keep running it through the cap stand

and it would play over and over. They didn't have samplers and it was beautiful, man. So it had the feel of a live guy. It was steady. And it had the sound samplers and it was it was beautiful man and so it had the feel of a live guy it was steady and it had the sound of analog tape and it was super steady

yeah and then we would build the tracks on top of that that's how you got the groove the bass groove the drums

yeah and then we build up from the drums right and so didn't you have but you'd put another live drum track

on top of that yeah at the end you'd have a live human come in and play on top. Oh, so you'd pull the loop out and then put the live guy in after everything's set up? That's sort of the backward way of doing it, right? It's a terrible way of doing it. But I didn't know how to do it any other way.

That's just how I did it. Mainly because we didn't have the bread to pay for a room full of musicians. Sure. So in time, eventually, really the first live band that I produced was the B-52s. Yeah. That record, Love Shack, I produced. How many? Oh, in 89.

In 89. Is that right? And then I had to change my way of making records. I remember asking them, well, how do you know when it's the take? Because we didn't have multiple takes. Right. So if you're building from a loop, there's only one take. Oh, because you're just adding things.

You're not actually playing together. You're not playing together. You're building on one piece of real estate. And that's how you did all those records? You did all your records like that? All the Was Don't Was albums were done like that. You had a couple of hits, right? Yeah, later in the...

We had some big hits at the end of the 80s. Yeah. What was the big hit? Big hit is a song called Walk the Dinosaur. Yeah, yeah. And one called Spy in the House of had some big hits at the end of the 80s. Yeah. Yeah. What was the big hit? Big hit is a song called Walk the Dinosaur and one called Spy in the House of Love. Right.

And we had a few other ones over in Europe. We were bigger in Europe. Right. So that was, so that was exciting? It was really exciting. It was fun.

And you toured? Yeah, we toured for years, yeah. Yeah, and you just put out, you put out, didn't you guys get together again? In 2008, which has now been like almost 10 years. Isn't that wild?

Yeah, yeah. We did one more album, which I actually think was our best record. And we toured then. And I still get together with the guys and we play. We do a show in Detroit every year. Not everybody. But was that the dream ultimately? Or did you always, like, was production always something you're like,

was that your sort of like your fallback in your fallback in your head that you had these other skills or were they all sort of coming together at the same time? I wasn't separating them out. There was something that happened around the time of Sergeant Pepper, I think, where production techniques became a musical color. And so to me, it was another instrument still is you know what you do in the studio is you don't approach it that differently from the way you play your instrument so but yeah but you've sort of evolved as a producer over time like i mean if you're telling me that you know from 81 to 89 you know you're not really letting them play live together. Yeah, no, hopefully you evolve.

But in that time, you work with Carly Simon. I don't know these Ward Brothers records. It's a British group. Carly actually might have been on. No, I think we cut it to a click. Yeah, what about Bonnie Raitt too? No, Bonnie Raitt was just after the B-52. It was like a month after.

So you're like, guess what? You can all play together. Well, Bonnie wasn't going to have it any other way. She cannot and will not play to a drum machine. And I learned a whole lot making Nick a time man and just being around Bonnie because she's as soulful and honest and genuine as a musician, as a singer, and as a human being

as anybody I ever met. Yeah, she's great. Yeah. She's a real blues legend. Oh, man, I love her so much. Yeah. You know, I get so moved when I hear her sing. Sometimes I can't play her records because I get too emotional. And I loved her long when I hear her sing. Sometimes I can't play her records

because I get too emotional. And I loved her long before I knew her. I remember seeing her at the Ann Arbor Blues and Jazz Festival in 1969 or something. I bought her first album when it was new. And I was just always a big fan. So it was a thrill to be able to make those four records with her. And it's still a

thrill to play did you do the one that has angel from montgomery on it no i wish yeah that's her cover of that is fucking insane killer yeah it's like heartbreaker huh yeah yeah and you got to work with iggy too and i like that record yeah brick by brick brick by brick yeah thank you i've done a couple with them yeah what was the other one uh it's called avenue b so huh that's a weird one is it it's a beautiful album it's an underrated album it's i love this song i won't crap out on brick by brick yeah thank you yeah i dig that one too that was a that was a fun record to make man so how how do you guys find each other i mean why why you why why do people like what they when they were like i want that don was thing i don't know come on I don't

know I guess because I had other records on the charts probably you know it's 1989 it was in fact oh because well you know in in fairness now

yeah to him I left the session from I said I gotta leave early I was we're doing brick by brick and I left the session so I gotta go to the Grammy nominated for something I didn doing brick by brick. And I left the session. I said, I got to go to the Grammys.

I got nominated for something. I didn't even talk about it. And that was the year we won best album of the year for Nick of Time. Oh, yeah, yeah. So it wasn't like he was jumping on the bandwagon because there wasn't really a bandwagon. So I would say that-

That was the album of the year? The Bonnie Raitt record? Yeah. Yeah, that was 1989. That's exciting. bonnie ray record yeah yeah that was 1989 that's exciting i was in the studio with iggy and i just i left and they were looking on tv i didn't even tell them it was here you're out here we're out here and then we just went back to work the next day and what's he you know as a vocalist you know exclusively a vocalist what's he looking for?

What's the relationship with him and a producer, with you specifically? What was he looking for in that record? What were you going to do for Iggy Pop, knowing Iggy Pop, having seen him in high school? Did you tell him? Oh, yeah, no. I did, yeah. You know something?

As wild as he is on stage, he's also a very deep guy. You should have him on. I've had him on. Oh, yeah, very thoughtful, intelligent dude. Brilliant guy.'s he's surprising he's like keith where you're like oh i get it it's a character you're doing well it's alter it's the other part of you it's a party yeah yeah yeah and that's for real i don't think you can oh no no you can't it's not like alice cooper or something like that where he'll tell you he's right right i'm doing stick yeah no no no it's definitely that well that's what's what, you know, Rollins said that to me. He said, you know, when you're talking to Jim, it's different than Iggy.

You know, Iggy is Iggy, Jim is Jim. Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. Yeah. But you see where it comes from. Uh-huh. I think he just wanted good tracks. Yeah. You know, he just, you know,

he wanted to make a quality record. Did he want to make a, like, because, like, there's a single on there, right? I mean, you know, Yeah, it was a big single. Candy, Candy. Yeah. He just, you know, he wanted to make a quality record. Did he want to make a, like, cause like there's like, there's a single on there, right? I mean, you know. Yeah, it was a big single. Candy Candy. Yeah. And, and, and he, was he thinking in terms of that?

Because it doesn't seem like certain artists are ever really thinking in terms of that. But I imagine producers are always kind of thinking in terms of that. You want a single on a record i've always been a little uh removed from popular like top 10 record i've never i don't really have a whole lot of hit singles that i've worked on um so my orientation as a producer is just to try to get an artist with a great vision and help them realize it whatever that vision may be. And if I feel I can be of assistance, I'll do the record. And sometimes I think, I don't know how to do what you're talking about,

and you should probably call this person. Oh, really? I'll buy the record the day it comes out. Who have you sent away, Don? I wouldn't tell you. But I have declined. I can't help you man it does seem like there have been some people that you work with that were you know on the other side of the arc of their career a little bit uh in a way you know someone john mayer once said to me how come you

always do the album after the big one and John's a real good friend yeah I love him and yeah I know he was just being a bit of a or he might just want to know the answer I don't know so just busting your balls away I didn't bust him in the chops asking but I thought about it and I thought well got you thinking it's usually if you have some big hit single it it may not be uh an accurate uh reflection of who you are oh yeah and maybe people want to get back on track right i think that i think that's the kind of record because you did that you sort of did that with elton john right yeah yeah play piano he didn't play an electric piano we got him on a

grand piano which at the time was something he was shying away from. Oh, really? Yeah. And you did, like, well, the Dylan record, what was that like? Well, you know, Bob's my hero. I believe we were woefully unprepared to produce that record. Under the Red Sky? Under the Red Sky, yeah.

I don't know if I know the record specifically. I don't know if I have the record. It's not hailed as one of his masterpieces. Yeah. But there's a few of record. It's not hailed as one of his masterpieces. Yeah. But there's a few of those. It's not your fault. Well, I can tell you what I did wrong on that. Yeah.

It's just that I went in thinking, all right, let's make Blonde on Blonde Part 2 or something like that. Yeah, right. And that's the furthest thing from Bob Dylan's mind, is repeating himself. Right. It's the furthest thing from most great artists' mind. Right.

He was trying to do something else. Yeah. The assistant engineer ran a cassette of the talking between songs on the first session I did with him. And he said, man, you may want to have this as a souvenir. And I plopped it in when I was driving home from the session. And I landed right on a spot where Bob was telling me something he wanted to do, and I was telling him why it wouldn't work before we tried it.

I waited all my life to work with this guy, man, my hero, and I didn't even chase up his idea. And I pulled over. I wanted to throw up. I was so sick. Oh, no. But it was a good lesson. Yeah.

Oh, no. But it was a good lesson. Yeah. What you can hear in Under the Red Sky is the beginnings of what he later went on to do, which was this kind of rootsy American music, I think, based in Houston. The weird, the sort of ghost troubadour time traveler of Americana music. That's actually a really good description, man. And I think he would like that description.

But he was headed that way and I was probably not helping him get there. And I learned a lot from that. You guys are friends or no? Yeah, still friends. Yeah. But like friends, friends, or like when you see him, he says hi? No, we just did something fairly recently that I can't talk about.

Oh, yeah? How's he doing? He's great, man. And you know, I still, I love his music so much. I watch all his shows. I follow his tours on YouTube. There's always someone with a phone taping it. And I think he's a great singer.

Yeah. You have to really listen. You got to forget about the original versions of the songs. Yeah. But if you really listen to what he's doing, he's inhabiting every word of those songs and approaching them with a beginner's mind, a fresh mind every night.

And they ring true. He's a deep guy, man guy man he's really a great singer no i agree with you i i think that like there there are periods where you know he was doing something up there that was either out of uh uh spite or or or exhaustion but i always think it's funny that you know for years people be like i don't know what song this is i don't know what he's saying you know he'd do a whole tour like that all right yeah I don't know what song this is. I don't know what he's saying. He'd do a whole tour like that. I don't know, what's going on? And then he'd release a record of crooning,

like completely clear, perfect, audible vocals. And to me, that's sort of like, eh, I wasn't feeling it. Fuck you, in a way. I love the Sinatra records. Yeah, yeah. I think he's really found, first of all, it's really hard to tackle those songs

and follow... You can't follow Frank's footsteps in or you're doomed. Yeah. So he's found a really, a totally original way to inhabit those songs and be himself. Right. It's brilliant. I think it's sort of...

It's a very interesting... Because I have to assume that you know he he doesn't need to tour other than for his own you know emotional and creative needs he tours because that's what he does right you play right musicians right and i think that you know his commitment to it at this point in his life and the way he you know is approaching it which is sort of like a performance piece every year, that this particular manifestation of Dylan, it's very interesting and it's very sort of timeless. I think he's great. Yeah, man. I mean, I saw him. He did that Desert Storm concert.

I love that show. But I love this tour that he's on right now. I think he's delivering 100% every night. I think so. Yeah. I agree with you. But obviously, we can't go through everybody. But you got to work with Seeger on a record that, I don't know,

The Fire Inside. But you're just playing bass? No, I produced it. And I play bass too. Yeah. Do you were just playing bass? No, I produced it. And I played bass too. Yeah. Do you play bass on a lot of these? If asked. I never offer.

You did another with the B-52s, Glenn Fry, Rest His Soul. Roy Orbison, that must have been something. He's beautiful. He's a sweet guy. Really good guy. And when he opened his mouth, it was like, wow. Oh, yeah. Waylon Jennings did a country trip.

You did the Brian Wilson doc? I directed a documentary about Brian Wilson. I think I saw that doc. It's good. I just wasn't made for these times. Yeah. It's heartbreaking. He's heartbreaking to me.

Well. Not because he's sad. It's just there's a couple of people, and I've said this before on the show, where I have a hard time listening to it because I can feel the vulnerability and the pain of it. Well, that's what makes him a great artist, too. No doubt. No doubt. But some people hear the beauty of it.

And for me, it's sort of like when I hear it, I'm like, oh, he's so sad. It's hard for me to hear. Yeah, I understand that. Yeah. You don't, you don't, I think at his best what he did was make kind of sad, wistful songs with this great harmony and upbeat thing underneath and you don't necessarily, it's like Hank Williams kind of, Hank Williams wrote the darkest, saddest, most depressing songs, but he was going out playing roadhouses and he knew that people had to stay and drink right right so he put you know cold cold heart you know that's like got this this beat and it's up and

major key and stuff and yet you listen it was lyrics but that was hank's thing we tried to copy that a little bit and was not was you know that i tried to do music that would be the opposite of the lyrics. It was based on a theory that if you had a beautiful diamond and you wanted to show it to somebody, if you put it down on ice, you won't see it. If you put it down on black velvet, people can see the diamond. So it was a device that didn't always work. Sometimes you go too far and it's just an alienation device. Sure, but it's an old blues device too, right? I mean, that's the heart of it, isn't it? I think it has to do with playing bars, you know?

Right. You've got to keep people drinking or you don't get paid at the end of the night. Right. And they don't ask you back. It's sort of like hard bop, like the transition from, you know, into hard bop. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you know, like maybe we can't go all the way out there.

Why don't we tighten it up a little bit and give people something they can swing to? Well, that's very, you know, that's something I, once I took the gig at Blue Note, I really had to figure out, I was hired to continue the aesthetic of the previous 73 years, right? Yeah. So what is that aesthetic? Well, it turns out the guys who founded the label, Alfred Lyon, Frank Wolf, and a couple of their buddies wrote this little manifesto when they started in 1939.

And they dedicated themselves to the pursuit of authentic music and to providing uncompromising freedom of expression. Right. That's the essence of the manifesto. But if you really follow the history of what they did, they just pushed the envelope in every era. Yeah.

And they started doing like stride piano players, but by 10 years in, they wanted to get into bebop. Yeah. They chose Monk of all the people, man, the most out there cat of the time. But they made these incredible seminal records with Thelonious Monk that changed the face of music, changed the way people wrote songs, changed the way people approached solos, changed the way people voiced chords and how you played behind the solos. He's so influential, but they saw that and no one else was really seeing it at the time. Jump ahead to what you're talking about, the hard bop stuff.

That was Horace Silver and Art Blakey. Art Blakey's throwing in backbeats. Horace Silver's doing this funky gospel stuff. And you couldn't do that at Minton's Playhouse. You kicked off the bandstand for that. That was revolutionary music. You listen to it now, it sounds pretty much, it's become such a part of the musical vocabulary. It sounds normal. But it was radical at the time. such a part of the musical vocabulary. Right. It sounds normal.

But it was radical at the time. You jump ahead to the 60s, you got Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter making these modal jazz records reflecting what they were doing with Miles. That was pretty radical. So what happened to Blue Note? Why are all these two, the Japanese owned Blue Note for a while? What was that? Well, it's gone through a series of ownerships,

but it costs money every time you've got to reissue a record. You've got to remaster it, and you've got to do some costs at the front. Yeah. And there have been times when Blue Note's been owned by companies that haven't appreciated the value of the catalog and didn't want to invest in it. So in those time periods.

Were there time periods where there were shitty reissues? Like, you know, quality wise? Yeah, it's uneven. You know, there's a whole philosophy to remastering. I think it's something you can dramatically alter the character of a record when you remaster. You don't want to do that though, right? No, you don't, man. But a lot of people think, well, let's improve it. We can improve this now with the technology it's so weird man it's so

weird when people do that i know there's some rock acts that are sort of like oh let's you know let's reissue you know they can sell it again you can sell a thing you know nine times nine different formats i'll tell you a story we were we were in 1993 when i started working with the stones yeah they signed virgin records and they were going to reissue the catalog. So everything had to be remastered. From the beginning? The whole catalog? No, no.

From what they owned, which the pre, the post-APCO. The first thing was Sticky Fingers in Exile were the first two. And so we got the original tapes and sent it to the maestro of mastering. Yeah. Whoever that is. It's Bob Ludwig. Okay. Heestro of mastering. Yeah, whoever that is. It was Bob Ludwig. Okay. He was a genius.

Just look at his discography. It'll blow your mind, man. But we didn't give him any instructions. So Bob went in and made it sound up to par with 1993, like added an octave of low end and stuff. He was doing what he thought the record company wanted but we listened to it and it would you couldn't recognize it oh so what really it was in the sticky fingers and be like what is that well it just it sounded different yeah no no not really not bob's fault

right he was he's he's a genius you know uh but we'd listen all right what's wrong here well let's put up the original tapes and see what we got. So we listened to the unmastered Exile and Sticky Fingers, and that doesn't sound like the album you remember, that I remember, that they remember. It doesn't? No. It's because someone mastered it and did something to it.

Originally. Originally, and that's how you heard it. You didn't hear it raw. They're all really different. Every song is different, especially Exile, which was made all over the world. did you work on that remastered exile i worked i worked on two different versions of exile i didn't do the remaster i did i worked on the remastering in 93 and then a few years ago we did a second disc of where they finished

some unfinished songs and i worked on those yeah i got Yeah. A couple of those songs are pretty good. There's some cool stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely worth hearing, yeah. Oh, yeah, it's great. So the- So anyway, so then we started, we got all the CDs together. And you listen to all the different CDs and the cassettes, everything.

Yeah. And they're all radically different. And it turns out, like, some guy working a plant in Germany on the midnight shift decides to add treble. And that's the new sound of Exile on Main Street, you know, going forward. So we thought, all right, what are we going to do? Finally, we answered an ad in Goldmine Magazine. Yeah. A guy had virgin vinyl copies still in the shrink wrap from 1972 Exile.

And he had a version of sticky fingers too so he brought it up to my house in mulholland where we were recording voodoo lounge not knowing that he was bringing it to mick and keith right yeah that's when you wish they'd invented iphones you want to get that on tape great man but we put that on so he comes over with the records and you introduce him to the guys yeah Yeah. Did he just melt? Yeah. Yeah. No, it blew his mind. It was great.

It was one of the greatest things ever. Could he talk? They're buying their own record from him. Could he talk? Could he even function? Yeah, he was cool. Yeah. And he could function enough to know not to charge them for it, but to ask them to sign a dozen albums.

Right. So everyone made out like bandits on the deal. So what'd you do with those records? Well, you put it on, and ah, there's Exile. So we sent that to Ludwig, and we said, this is what it's supposed to sound like, and he got it. And the remasters from 93 sound great

because they adhere to the aesthetics of the original artistic impulse. So he didn't rip it from the wax. He just got this. He could hear what they understood what it was. Oh, wow. But you have to have some frame of reference. And even the Stones didn't have a frame of reference.

Sure. It had been so long. I wouldn't expect him to with Exile or either of those records. I'm surprised they have a frame of reference for that decade. So same thing at Blue Note. But it's so much more simple. I mean, you listen to some of when I got but it's so much more simple I mean you listen

it's not well it's not you know it's simple having gone through that exercise but if you put up the unmastered tapes

it doesn't sound like the records you remember huh but Rudy Van Gelder did his own mastering Rudy Van Gelder who engineered

all those classic albums in the 50s and 60s and not just for Blu-ray, but he did the Impulse records. He did Love Supreme. Yeah. So he'd master them, and there was a sound there

that everybody liked. Yeah. But over the years, the reissues get fogged. Sometimes they're amazing. There's a company called Music Matters that does our audio file work, and they sound incredible.

But they figured it out you got to go back to the original virgin vinyl that everybody approved and matched to the feel of that so that's what we do so listen to the record don't rip it from the record or don't just get a guy with good ears who's a genius at that shit to take it from the record because you know like there are certain things you listen to like i, I don't think it's a Blue Note record. I don't know. Who did the Giant Steps record? Giant Steps.

The Coltrane? That's on Atlantic. So, like, you know, I got the new one, the vinyl on that. It was a 10-inch, 45-speed, 180-gram thing. And it sounds like it's in the fucking room. It's so clean. Yeah. There's no mess on it at all.

Yeah. And it just feels like it's in the fucking room. It's so clean. Yeah. There's no mess on it at all. Yeah. And it just feels like it's just a balance thing. Like, you know, bring that up, bring that, level it out, and that's it. Isn't that how a lot of that jazz was recorded? Well, the Blue Note stuff that's considered to be classic was they cut it live to two tracks. Right. They mixed it as they were recording.

Yeah. So you don't have the option of bringing up. It's great yeah it's crazy yeah yeah so so now you just don't mess with it man that's really the thing is don't don't impose yourself on the scene man you know so what is what is the vision that you have for blue now what is that thing i got in the mail that i listened to oh you know review yes well the overall vision for blue it's a nice box it's you know there's pictures in it there's paper there's a reissue of a old record then there's a new record that's recorded live there's some uh there's a scarf in there i think john varvados yeah i'm blue note scarf we got magazine uh the idea was you know how we're talking about

the liner notes for the frank zappa record right and and just my experience driving around detroit right bus china right trying to hold the albums to restore that kind of experience holding something and connecting with the arts nice box i was i was i didn't i whenever i get something like that i'm like should i even play it yeah yeah heck yeah you should but there's actually a it's a the centerpiece of it is an anthology of new tracks from artists on the roster that aren't available anywhere else. They don't stream. The live tracks, right?

A couple are live, but they're whatever. Yeah. But they're new and they've never come out. And in some cases were created specifically for the box. We're on box two now. We're making it. And that's all stuff that recorded specifically to a theme for the box what's the theme the theme is the theme of the album

second box to is it's about Tony Williams the album and Tony Williams great drummer played with Miles Davis in the 60s and and really totally revolutionized the approach to drums He made some great albums for Blue Note between late 80s and early 90s, right up until the time he passed away, really. Six albums that are kind of really underrated classics, so we're trying to shine a light on those.

So the drummers on the roster are reimagining those songs. So these are all new tracks cut to a theme. And what reissue are you putting in there? It's going to be Bobby Hutcherson record. Okay, so that's nice. So this is going to be a twice a year thing you do.

Twice a year, yeah. And it's by subscription. Right. We're just trying to do cool new stuff. That's just something. One of the things I felt taking the gig was that

you know, look, I stream music every day sure i love it yeah but i miss that connection from the liner notes and from the package so how can we get back to that and maybe go past it and so we're just trying to uh well i'm in a vinyl hole i'm doing i you know i got in a lot of records and i you know i got good equipment to listen to them on and i like it yeah and like so you're on top of the newer blue note reissues too you're you oversee all that stuff yeah we got some great we got an 80th anniversary coming up in 2019 and we got some really cool and because there's a lot of audiophiles around now who are into the

vinyl you know they're getting it vinyl's got an amazing sound really distinctive you know it's a kind of distortion really you know it's it's not it's not pure and that's what's good about it yeah it's got some you know that gives it a soul and a and a feel yeah and some more than others depending on how many times it's been played or you know someone ate off it you buy used records sometimes you like, what was this guy doing with this record? What is, how come I can't get this fingerprint off? Was he handling it

with shellac on his hands? Yeah, right. Was he so high he melted like his hands were on fire? That I can relate to. Definitely. His flesh was burning. That's crazy.

But that's what you do. Like if you have a question, you're like, go find the original wax, put it on, give it to the guy, tell him to match it. Yeah, just trust the initial impulse of the artist. If everyone was, if they were all slapping hands at the end saying, yeah, this is great, who are we to editorialize? Right. We might be the room, man, you know.

Sure. And especially if it stands the test of time yeah why would you change that there was one of all the reissues we've done in the last six and a half years one of my favorite albums ornette coleman live at the golden circle it's just a trio yeah david eisenson and charles wofford and we discovered that the left and right side are out of phase on the original tape. Yeah. But because of that, the cymbals got this crazy sound. Right. But also because of it, the bass is a little blurry.

So we put it back in phase. Yeah. And the crazy sound on the cymbals went away. Yeah. But you could hear the bass really well. What would you do well it's way it's a tough question philosophically because if you want the record that people know then you know what i mean yeah uh but but that's also one of those things where it's like well you fixed it not but you didn't fix it in a way that was uh ideal you know it

wasn't like a preference thing it was like like, no, this was engineered wrong, and this is what it sounded like. Unless Ornette did that on purpose. I guarantee you he didn't. It was done by an engineer in Stockholm who didn't realize that the mics were out of phase. We put it in phase, but figured out how to get the crazy sound

out of the cymbals. And so it's got, because it's got a real quirky character. So it took weeks. It really took weeks and a lot of people involved. Meticulous. So we got the quirkiness back in, but got it in phase. And that's the one time we editorialized. Oh, now I got to get that record.

Yes. You can't lose with that record. And it's new. You got a new reissue of it. Yeah. Yeah, a few years back. Well, we got to talk about the Stones before we go. Sure.

Do some Stones talk. Because I talked to Keith. And it was a very fanboy interview. It was goofy. I got him laughing. Yeah. He had a good time. Yeah.

But you did like what? This was Blue and Lonesome was the Fifth Stones record you did? Yeah, I've done some live ones too, but Fifth Studio album. They all have these enormous personalities. Yeah. And they're all really different and they pull in different directions.

If you listen to any one track, you go, hmm, I don't know. But when you put it together, you realize that it's this perfect blend really quirky but really perfect

and they're still like that oh they're great man you know I've played with them a number of times yeah and you really understand it when you get inside of it because

forget all the hypes yeah and everything it's a really jocular loose fun musical conversation that's going on yeah it's so much fun the hypes and everything. It's a really jocular, loose, fun,

musical conversation that's going on. Yeah. It's so much fun to play bass in the Rolling Stones. And they're great listeners. They're like jazz musicians. Yeah. They never play it the same way twice. Someone does something, they hear it.

You could tell just by talking to Keith. He's fast. Yeah. He's quick. He's fast yeah he's quick he's fast he's sharp uh-huh really smart yeah charlie to do some little thing on the hi-hat keith to react to it it'll impact how mick sings ronnie will play something back it's the interplay is so brilliant in this band they're really on top of it that much in it they're so yeah yeah and they still are i saw them in stock Stockholm in October on the Snow Filter Tour.

They were awesome. They're not playing backtracks on there. They're playing live, all live. They can't. Yeah. I went with them to the Super Bowl. Yeah. And they were the first, maybe the only band to play completely live. So you have seven minutes from the end of the second quarter to get the entire stage set up

on the field and everyone to be balanced and tuned in yeah and they didn't have Ronnie's guitar for like the first 30 seconds and it was like oh my I was sitting and actually you know what my gig was yeah my gig at the Super Bowl was that the ABC or whoever I think think it was ABC, the censors didn't like two lines in the song. You make a dead man come and start me up. Am I still your rooster baby or am I just one of your cocks on Rough Justice. And I had to hit the mute button on Vic's microphone on Cox and Cum. Yeah.

And if I missed it, it was like a $5 million fine they had to pay. It was a thrill. You got it? I got it. So, like, but this last, like, i was completely blown away by the the most recent record by blue and lonesome yeah thank you yeah because you know people like me had been talking i talked to keith about it when i talked to him i'll go why don't you guys do a blues record yeah and they're like he's that dr mick you know like so so when that happened and you know and i got

it and i was like oh my god they did it they it. I felt like I was cheering in my car. It worked because that's what they come from. That record could have been their first album. Yeah. Do you know what I mean in terms of the song list? Yeah. Right? Absolutely.

And I was so impressed that not only the production, but just how they got into those songs. Because the problem with the blues, if there is a problem, is that, you know, any idiot can play it. And God bless the idiots, and I hope they're having a good time. But to own it, you know, especially covers, is no easy trick. No. So, you know, for them to own that, like, they own that whole record. Yeah. Because they're the fucking rolling stars.

It was one of those things where it's like, of course. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because they're the fucking rolling stars. It was one of those things where it's like, of course. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It was an accident. If we'd have said, let's do a blues record, it never would have happened. Yeah. We were getting used to a new studio.

We're at British Grove Studios at Mark Knopfler's place in London, which is a great studio. But we'd never been in there before. So just getting used to the headphones, it was a little awkward. So Keith, and I know he had it in the back of his mind anyway, the way to get everyone focused was he was holding on to Blue and Lonesome. The song. Yeah. Yeah.

And he said, let's do Blue and Lonesome. Yeah. So they played it, and it was magnificent. Yeah. Thankfully, Chris Sharma, the engineer, hit record. Uh-huh. And we went in and listened to it. And, you know, it was undeniable, right?

So I said, yeah, well, let's do another one. Sure. And at the end of the first day, we'd done five blues songs. Now, no one said, hey, do another five. We've got a blues album. Right. But we came back the next day and did more. But no one talked about it.

It's a little like a guy pitching a no-hitter. Yeah. No one talks about it in the dugout you jinx it right no one's mentioned blues album right and at the end of like two and a half days we had the whole record in the can and still no one said great let's put out a blue all playing live all live there's no there's not a single overdub the thing is they were all in the same room yeah and a lot of the drum sound comes from the vocal mic for example so if he punched right punched a line

right you'd lose the drums so you couldn't fix anything so that's exactly as it happened that's amazing and and like you know mick is like there's a because of that you know the sad thing that happened with that woman he used to date like there's a lot of fucking recent blues in that guy and you know like he played the hell out of it the harmonica and he's saying the shit out of some of those songs he's great on that record it's like unbelievable no there there's something else you know they're they're really the the giants who walk the earth i'm not being hyperbolic why was I saw them live, and I hadn't seen them live since 81 in San Diego, and they did in the encore, they did Midnight

Rambler, maybe it was the last song. To know that that song is just five guys. Because the original is its own thing. It's a studio thing. But the live version on Get Your Yaya's Out is pretty astounding. But then just to hear them do it, like just basic fucking rock.

Yeah. And it's just so big. One time. I don't know what about you. I think it was in the 90s. Yelling. Like yelling at you. No.

They're great. Well, I appreciate your enthusiasm and I share it, you know. There's one time we were recording Bridges to Babylon in the 90s, mid-90s. We were over in Hollywood at what's now East West Studios. And it's a big room, Studio One. It's where Sinatra recorded with big orchestras and everything. Yeah. And Mick and Keith and Charlie were alone in the room.

Everyone else was on dinner break. Yeah. And I walked in to tell them something. in the room everyone else was on dinner break yeah and i walked in to tell them something and these three guys their personalities so far exceed the the boundaries of their skin yeah that the room was full with the three of them standing the person if you could view the if there was a charisma camera yeah they're like remember when they used to have those blow-up dolls on the stage they were like five stories high yeah that's who they are right yeah yeah and they have to contain that in the normal body but they're just they're larger than life cats and when they play together there's

nothing like it you also did david crosby records willie nelson records chris christopherson so you work all angles of all types yes it's just just a couple kinds of music. But like Waddy Wachtel's always around. Yeah, Waddy's around. And then there's a few other guys that are always around. Like the David Crosby record, how was that, working with him? Oh, I loved David. He's great. He's been over here.

Yeah. I think he would have moved in. Try to sell him the house. I got a deal for you, David. And I'm glad you're doing this thing with Blue Note it was great talking to you it's been a real pleasure do we cover enough?

I feel confident about that yeah good work on that Blake Mills album too oh thank you yeah Blake he's a brilliant kid and it's a real honor to play bass on that he's got good sound man

he can do like he's one of those wizard kids where you're like oh my god it's from outer space this guy he's gonna be around for a while He can do, like, he's one of those wizard kids where you're like, oh my God, it's from outer space, this guy. He's going to be around for a while, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, though, because, like,

you know, he's got a great sense as a producer himself, right? Yeah. And he's got a great feel for guitar, and he plays, you know, he plays amazingly well. You know, but, like, he seems to really be excelling as a producer. He's got a real sense of color.

Yeah. You know, he paints an impressionistic canvas. Like, it's really hard to do, because so much has been done already. Right. And there's so many electronic ways of getting to sounds that to come up with something fresh that's not just sound for the sake of sound,

but is actually contributing emotionally to the record, and he's great at that. He's an analog cat. He likes that. He likes the old toys. I talked to Neil Young. Neil Young literally gets on stage with a rig for an amp rig where he doesn't know if it's going to make it through the show,

and that drives him. No, there's a whole lot to be said for that. There's just something about old gear in general. Certainly, if you're talking about real instruments, I just got a, Carlene Carter gave me a 1967 Fender Jazz that belonged to her dad, Carl Smith. And it's been sitting around,

so it's like pristine, new. But the wood has aged since 1967. And there's nothing like old wood. You cannot manufacture what that does to the sound. Really? Even on an electric instrument. So this is just the greatest bass I've ever played. Wow, man.

And I've been using it on everything. I always played Precisions for years. And I even, I said, well, I play Precisions. It's a jazz bass. I left it sitting for, she gave it to me a few years back. This year I pulled it out and we're in Super jazz bass. I left it sitting. She gave it to me a few years back. This year, I pulled it out. It's the best? Yeah.

It's just that old stuff sounds better. I know. I tend to buy new stuff. Like that thing. That's the only one I got over here. But that's like an 86. It's not even that old. But that's old now.

Well, yeah. It's kind of old now. It's got its own patina now. Yeah. Years ago, the guys in the Fender custom shop came up to my house when we were doing the Stones

we were doing the Boudinage and they made a guitar for Keith and the guy Jay Black worked there and he's really good was this the one

that he made exactly off that old blonde telly no that was later this was just they made him a guitar made him a Strat

but it was all new looking and Keith said it's great but I'm never gonna play this thing and I said to him I said can't you, made him a Strat, but it's all new looking. And Keith said, it's great, but I'm never going to play this thing. And I said to him, I said, can't you, like, we had a mic cabinet that was like something I got over at Arte de Mexico. Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure it was two years old, but it looked like it was 300 years old.

I said, can't you just distress a guitar? And the guy came back a couple years later. He said, you gave me the idea for the Fender Relic series. So here is Relic number one, and he made me a precision bass with all 1963 parts on it. And it's a really good bass. Yeah. And it says Relic one on it, and that was 1993,

so now it's older, and now it's getting its own patina. And so it's not only a Relic manufactured Relic, but it's older and now it's getting its own patina uh-huh and uh so it's not only a relic manufactured but it's actually got some uh yeah yeah grease on it yeah i don't i don't like i i have not bought a really old thing i these amps are that's a that's an original champ there that's like 58 are you playing through the bell and howl that's uh that's that's that's you know his uh blake's guy yeah blake's guy you know, his... Blake's guy. Yeah, Blake's guy. That's his.

He lives around the corner. Austin. Oh, yeah, yeah. Is that his name? I don't know the guy's name, but they're really good. I have one. Blake gave me one. That's going to bother me.

I don't want to... All right, let's get him. Yeah, get the guy. Short, short... Is it Austin? Austin Hooks. Yeah, right. Austin Hooks.

Yeah, he lives around the corner. And this is the first one. This is the prototype. I don't know if he knows I still have it. But he said, because he would fix, he fucking fixed that old champ for me. Or that old deluxe. And that's a 65 champ. That's beautiful.

Yeah. But he said he wanted me to play through one of these. So this is like the one his dad made the cabinet. And he gave it to me. He said, just keep it so I don't sell it so i don't like so i i just had it it's been years now he's gonna know where it is you can have it back so they sound quite understand it i don't understand how to work it this seems to be it seems complicated to me you mean like well i mean you plug inside and then there's two plug there's two holes and i don't know what you know what what knob means

or what i play it sometimes just mess with it alright yeah I don't do enough messing because every time I mess with something

I'm like someone knows how to do this and I don't know but that's all the cool stuff came from having no one around

who knew how to do it and it really is you know I listen to like Motown records right and I knew those guys I got to play

with a lot of those guys when I lived in Detroit. And they were jazz musicians who were trying to imitate New York R&B records and they got it wrong. Yeah. And they came up with something

at least as good and as enduring. Yeah, for sure. But it was because there was no one around to tell them how to do it. All right. Well, that's inspiring to me.

Okay. I'm not going to be daunted. I'm going to go fearless into just playing in my garage by myself. All right, Don. Good talking to you. Pleasure, man. So that was Don Was.

Pretty interesting stuff about the Stones, right? Do you want me? How's everybody? Okay. Is everybody okay is everybody okay um so i'm gonna play a little guitar you're right everybody all right i'm just gonna do some wawa and get out all right so the guy can smear cement on my house okay i'll do this. I'm going to do it. Boomer lives! lives. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost

almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take

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